MFMP Design New Dog Bone Core

It’s been interesting watching the progress of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project’s Project Dogbone, especially with the last two live experiments showing their live open science approach. We haven’t yet seen the hoped-for unambiguous demonstration of excess heat from the MFMP yet, but the experiments have been valuable in showing some things that don’t work, and where improvements need to be made.

One of the main areas of concern has been the design of the core which needs to be strong enough to contain very high hydrogen pressures when heated to certain levels. The MFMP concluded that in the first test, there was a leak in the reactor — and in the second, the stainless steel container was not able to contain the high pressure.

The MFMP have been reviewing the data, and looking at possible solutions, and on their Facebook page have presented a design of a new reactor with notes in the image below:


They also note regarding pressure drops they found in the second test:

“We have since learnt that other Russian researchers have seen a similar pressure drop. We also have learned that Dr. Alexander Parkhamov spent 5 hours just heating his reactor up – so if we had stuck with it, might we have seen excess heat – who knows?”

  • Once LENR devices like the E-Cat hit the market and companies all over the world compete to produce better designs, how fast will progress be? I remember the very first HDTV I saw in a store was a 65″ Mitsubishi rear projection HD television that was dim and fussy compared to today’s TVs, and it took up allot of space. Take a look at this new 65″ diagonal LED-LCD TV from Sony that is only 4.9 mm thick.

    We have two Toyota dealers in my town, and they sell their cars at a big discount compared to dealers in town that have a local monopoly on their brand. Competition works.

  • NT

    Exciting times indeed!
    Engineering solutions, will crop up all over the place when MFMP basically proves to the world that the “Rossie Effect” is real, replicable and just WORKS. Finding out why it works will likely take many months or years. Just as we are still exploring “fire/combustion” in major USA labs (Sandia Combustion Laboratory in Livermore, CA) for one. This “New Fire” will give those researchers something to REALLY think about (hopefully)…

  • Ged

    It is a very elegant and simple design, I like it a lot! Looking forward to see what this baby can do. Great work guys!

  • uDevil

    I guess they’re referring to the gradual decrease from the peak pressure over the duration of the test. I’d like to have them say more about their thinking now about the pressure data. I thought at first the ‘noise’ could be an acoustic effect, but the sampling period of 30 seconds means the variations occur at about the same time scale or longer. The transducer output at zero pressure seems to have shifted by about 15 psi. This is probably due to temperature but this error is <2% of full scale (1000 psi) while the excursions seen during the test were as much as ~100 psi. It might be worth playing with the transducer on a deadweight tester to see how it responds to temperature changes.

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, may be they are talking about the pressure decrease because of absorption of H2 into Ni, not because of a leak (which will decrease it rapidly).
      At 10:1 ratio, most of the H2 may get inside the powder with only a tiny bit of air and Li vapor remaining, this will keep it from exploding. Just guessing because neither Lugano Team nor Parkhomov used any special protection.

      • Ged

        I am thoroughly unconvinced it wasn’t a leak through the steel. One of the biggest challenges of all to a hydrogen economy is the storage and transport of hydrogen under pressure due to it leaking through the steel itself–and that happens even when super cooled at a rate enough to keep the hydrogen economy a pipe dream, let alone at higher temps. It additionally isn’t fast, but constant relative to atmospheric pressure. I will gladly be wrong though if supplied with the contrary data.

        Not to say the nickel didn’t absorb any hydrogen, as we know it does, but usually more slowly too.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Or some gas escaped at higher tempature and pressue.
        The resulting vacuum is thus VERY common in this kind of setup if leakage occurs at a higher temperatures/pressure.

        If you have a vessel at room temperature, heat it up, then you have a resulting LARGE increase in pressure. If any of the gas/air leaks or vents out at higher pressure due to this higher pressure, then when you return to room temperatures then the vessel will now experience a vacuum since you have LESS gas at room temperature.
        Take any tube, heat it to very high temperatures, put caps on the end, and cool – you have a partial vacuum.

        Kind of high school physics.

        if leakage occurs at higher pressure and temperature, then when you return the pressure vessel to room temperature then you simply have less gas then the equalized pressure you started out with.

        This will result in in a partial vacuum, or simply less pressure at room temperature since you have less gas at room temperature then when you started.
        Perhaps some gas absorption is occurring, but any leakage at higher pressure would also cause this effect.

        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada
        [email protected]

        • Bob Greenyer

          What Albert said

    • uDevil

      I looked at their comments on FB and their Evernote notebook. They noticed the below atmospheric pressure measurement at the end of the test data and this was confirmed days later when Ryan disconnected the pressure transducer and heard the vacuum break. So there may not have been any significant shift in the transducer zero output. There doesn’t seem to be any good reason at the moment to think the transducer wasn’t working properly and the ‘noise’ is actually valid pressure data.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Given that we take 24 hours to load celani wires and days to load powders in powders cells, and given that Rossi raised the temperature carefully in Lugano and Dr. AP said he took 5 hours to get to 1000ΒΊC – I think we should spend a lot MORE time getting to temperature.

  • Hank Mills

    Is any of the hydrogen in this setup exposed to steel? Is the part of the pressure gauge that contacts the hydrogen made of steel? If so, hydrogen could leak out if the steel in that area is not kept well below 500C. Is this possible without active cooling if the surface of the reactor reaches 1400C? Between radiative and conduction heat transfer there might need to be a cooling jacket placed near the seal.

  • Any idea when the next test is?

    • Bob Greenyer

      We are testing ferrule strength and seals over the next few days – look out for videos.

  • Dr. Mike

    This looks like a good initial design for a re-useable reactor. I’m fairly sure the outer surface of the alumina will need to be plated to get a good seal as the microscopic surface of the alumina will be rougher than one might imagine. (I’ve looked at some alumina substrates with a SEM.) Make sure that the alumina is plated without trapping any plating solution in the holes and crevices in the alumina surface.
    Why not make the device 10-20cm longer to make it easier to keep the seal region cool? Will the amount of LiAlH4 used be the amount to set a desired initial hydrogen pressure in the reactor?
    Dr. Mike

    • Bob Greenyer

      Plating is the intention.

  • Alain Samoun

    Good but where is (are) the TC to measure the inside temperature? or is it only for a thermal camera?

    • Bob Greenyer

      They will sit on the outside of the core as they have in the last two tests

  • Albert D. Kallal

    I like – and a few days ago I suggested a screw and gasket design here.

    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada
    [email protected]

    • Obvious

      The US is the last hold out to fully metric/SI use in the world. The US will go fully metric after you pry their 3/8 wrenches from their cold, dead hands (mostly kidding).
      In the meantime, 7/16 makes a decent 11mm, 14 mm is an OK 9/16, 5/8 is a pretty good 16 mm, and 1/2 and 3/8 can be pounded over 13 mm and 10 mm respectively with hammer and made to work for wrenches….

  • builditnow

    The new reactor setup could be pressurized with hydrogen from a tank to compensate for leaks, to see if the reactor then generates excess heat. If it does, then, all that has to be done is to seal it effectively.

    • guest9

      very bad idea

      • guest2

        Extremely dangerous idea. LiALh4 use is to replace dangerous H2 tank and possible flashback , resulted in explosion and already afew kills

    • Anon2012_2014

      I like this idea. If the pressure on the supply side is kept at or slightly higher than the pressure in the reaction chamber, nothing will leak out through the seal. Assuming the glazed alumina is hot hydrogen tight, we have a solution.

  • georgehants

    “Let our New Year’s resolution be this: we will be there for one
    another as fellow members of humanity, in the finest sense of the word.”
    Goran Persson

  • Axil Axil

    Replicating a system is valuable. It forces one to evaluate every detail of the design of the system. They say that the devil is in the details. In this light, the HOT cat as tested recently is not yet a completely designed stand alone system.

    First off, the Hot Cat is hard to start up and if not manually controlled and constantly monitored it could possibly explode due to a pressure excursion. The start up procedure is long and complicated. The Hot cat cannot be easily cycled on and off.

    True, all these system faults could be remedied using a microprocessor controlled automation system using temperature and pressure core readings as variables in a feedback loop.. But such a system would require input of both the temperature and the pressure. The temperature control is provided but the pressure feed back is not yet available. It looks like this pressure feedback is not yet covered in the structural design of the Hot Cat. This is a deep design problem. There is no pressure transducer provisions made at present in the structural design of the core tube.

    The programming of a microprocessor based controller for the Hot Cat will not be easy. Beside the pressure and temperature considerations, there is the superconducting behavior that was seen in the TPR2 test that might be manifest in a functional LENR system. This behavior might well be seen in the power feed to primary core heater. This behavior will throw a complication into the computer control algorithms.

    My estimation is that the Hot Cat has a very long design road ahead of it.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      The advantage of the current solution seems to be that there is a theoretical pressure limit, resulting from the total amount of hydrogen (and other substances that might be vaporized) and the highest possible temperature. That limit can be used as a reliable point of reference in the reactor design, provided that the composition of the fuel is well controlled. Using an external hydrogen tank in order to increase pressure would be much more risky from this point of view. Reducing pressure by a valve might imply other risks and will presumably not be necessary in normal operation, since cooling of the reactor would have an analogous effect. That’s why I think that using a chemical hydrogen source in a closed system was a reasonable decision.

  • Robert Ellefson

    What advantage would there be to converting metric units to imperial? This is just another place for inaccuracies to be introduced. Do you really think that some advantage would be gained by using only Imperial or only metric units?

    George Bernard Shaw: Reason enslaves all whose minds are not strong enough to master her.

  • Bob Greenyer

    That is one thing for sure, he has stated that.

    The other is possible loading into the Nickel of the evolved H2

    • Omega Z

      Everything I’m familiar or worked with, They always bring them up to temp gradually in steps with holding levels. This allows the temperature to equalize throughout before raising the temperature to the next level.

      The purpose for this is to minimize the possibility of stress crack/fractures & even explosions. This applies to clay pottery, porcelain ceramics, fire brick in heat treat systems & even in metals.

      Note that the Turbines in power plants are brought up to temperature over 24 to 72 hours before they start producing electricity(time varies by size). Last thing you want is 1 of those turbine blades developing a stress crack or fracture.

      Note that with your Alumina cement plug. As long as it wasn’t so wet as to weep water into the reactor & the charge, With a slow heat up process, the moisture would have migrated out away from the heat.
      A fast heat up would cause most to migrate out, but some would release internally creating pressure thus preventing a good seal before the Alumina cement was cured.

      Rossi has repeatedly mentioned the 4/5 hour start-up time in the past. This is the Achilles heal of the E-cat for home use. For instant availability, it needs to run 24/7. Tho the energy is cheap, if you waste 80% of it, Most of the savings is lost.

      • Bob Greenyer

        You are right.

  • Bob Greenyer

    I am no Dr!

  • Blazespin

    I have a question, with greater sealant allows for greater pressure which allows for a more dangerous explosion. What sort of protections is MFMP taking to ensure one of these things doesn’t blow up at the wrong time and hurt someone? Is no one allowed in the room when the vessel is above a certain temperature?

    • Bob Greenyer

      We used polycarbonate sheeting, distance, protective eye ware.

  • Mats002

    It is not only about burning time and money. It is also about keeping or burning trust from an audience with high expectations. I vote for conservatism. Early success in XP will gain a lot of trust and a larger audience for making innovations.

  • hempenearth

    It could be useful for MFMP to know Toyota have released 290 high pressure hydrogen tank patents.
    Thanks to Bernie777 who posted this link in another thread.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Thanks – anyone care to read them and report back any useful titbits? πŸ˜‰

  • Bob Greenyer

    Dr. Alexander Parkhomov invites MFMP to Moscow

    []=Project Dog Bone=[]

    • georgehants

      Wonderful. an example of how this World should be on everything.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Our project was set up specifically because of lack of accessible replication in the field. It is our principal aim to facilitate this.