Rossi: 30,000 Components Make up 1 MW E-Cat Plant

Andrea Rossi has been talking on the Journal of Nuclear Physics about the necessity to continually monitor and control the 1 MW Plant that he reports is currently under a long-term test at the site of a customer of Industrial Heat. Recently he described his job as being similar to a conductor of an orchestra.

When asked by a reader what he does when babysitting the plant he responded:

Andrea Rossi
February 1st, 2015 at 9:07 PM

control of temperature, steam, flow rates, correct operation of pumps, electromagnetics, just to give an example; obviously I cannot enter into particulars, but consider that the 1 MW plant has about 30,000 components and an orchestra of more than 100 reactors to put in harmony, trying to reach the “perfect harmony”. It is not easy, considering that this is a prototype.
Warm Regards,

It has often been noted that the E-Cat is basically a very simple device — just a reactor with fuel that gets heated up to produce a reaction — but what Rossi is describing here is something very complex and apparently sensitive that needs to be maintained in perfect balance to operate correctly. The mention here of ‘electromagnetics’ is interesting — it’s not something I can remember Rossi bringing up as being central to the E-Cat before.

Incidentally, Mats Lewan posted yesterday on his blog about the E-Cat replication efforts that are going on at the moment, and made this comment regarding the 1 MW plant:

“There’s no way to confirm this, but let me just say that I have reasons to believe that the megawatt plant exists and works and that the collaboration between Rossi and IH goes on.”

I suppose that there are still people out there who think Andrea Rossi is telling a huge lie about the 1 MW plant, and he’s still carrying on with his massive E-Cat fraud — but I think that is an increasingly difficult position to rationally hold on to. From everything I have been able to learn, I can’t find a reason not to take Andrea Rossi’s reports very seriously — and I certainly expect that in due time the plant will be revealed.

  • Ophelia Rump

    3000 parts per reactor seems a little bit extravagant, these are not teletype machines.
    I find those numbers difficult to believe.

    • fritz194

      Hopefully a typo. 300 parts should be enough.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Yes, The eyes are the fist thing to go, the mind seems to be the second.

        How kind of you to say it so nicely fritz.

        • fritz194

          Otherwise it could indicate that he switched to somewhat “microcat” design – where each classic e-cat consists of a control pcb which controls 8 microcats each rated 1kw. This would give 37.5 components / microcat.
          100 control pcbs @ 150 components = 15000 pcs.
          800 micro cats @ 20 components = 16000 pcs.

      • ecatworld

        I don’t think it’s a typo — Rossi mentioned in another recent post on the JONP:

        “I have to stay night and day, every day, with the 1 MW plant: I have to direct tens of thousands of components of the plant, playing in the same “orchestra” to reach the perfect harmony, as in the movie “The Concert”.

    • Fortyniner

      Agreed – but without knowing what Rossi is counting as a ‘component’ the statement is rather meaningless. A screw or nut securing a bracket in the structure is a ‘component’ (as is the bracket), and so is a length of wire or tubing. A simple hydraulic valve or relay could easily contain 50 ‘components’, as could almost any other small item of bought-in kit.

      However, if Rossi is not playing games, and ‘component’ means discrete functional item (PCB, PLC, valve, transformer, sensor, switch, heating coil, EM coil, etc.), then some simplification of the design would seem to be in order!

    • Gerard McEk

      Of cource this is a special 1 MW plant full of additional stuff to get as much knowledge from it as possible and from all different components, to be able to design a reliable (and economical) future plant. In the past he mentioned a SCADA system and no doubt there will be many PLC’s in it as well, perhaps even one for each E-cat to control it and to gather data with numerous additional sensors. But yes you are right 300 parts per Ecat still seems a lot.

  • fritz194

    Sounds like he is really operating his e-cats straight forward in parallel. From my professional experience – it would make lots of sense to operate in hierarchical groups and concentrate data or perform local control. Sound like a mess of wires.

    • mcloki

      I would think the first couple e-Cats will look more like Frankenstein than super model.

    • Omega Z

      Controlling the reactors is determined by the Nature of the reactors themselves. Each Individually. Rossi’s analogy of conducting an orchestra is pretty accurate.

  • Fortyniner

    @Admin. Yes, the bit about ‘electromagnetics’ is interesting. Of course he may just be referring to relay actuating coils or solenoid-operated valves, but the possibility that EM fields may play a crucial role in the ‘Rossi effect’ has been with us since the ‘plumbing parts’ prototypes (in my mind, if nowhere else!) and I suspect that this is most probably a direct reference to field coils within the reactors, and external driving circuits. Perhaps Rossi is giving out a tiny clue for the replicators – ‘don’t overlook this’.

    • bachcole

      But with Parkhomov and soon to be so many, many others, finding the exact frequency and much, much more will be easy. A working reactor would be the very best situation with which to try different frequencies, with almost instantaneous feedback as to whether it worked better or worse.

      • Fortyniner

        Yes, that bit should be a relatively simple ‘Edisonian’ process. I think Rossi may have started out with simple mains frequency coils, perhaps in an attempt to remove the need for a heater at the fuel charge by substituting an induction heater. Possibly the field produced by heater resistances may still be all that is needed in ‘hot cats’, but the LT type might need a bit more of a kick to start them.

        I’m not sure that any of the would-be replicators are actually trying additional EM fields to see if there is an effect though.

    • jousterusa

      My (limited) understanding is that a magnetohydrodynamic converter is what is required to turn Rossi’s heat output into electricity.

  • timycelyn

    “I suppose that there are still people out there who think Andrea Rossi is telling a huge lie about the 1 MW plant, and he’s still carrying on with his massive E-Cat fraud …….”
    Or at least articulate this ridiculous proposition. I’m afraid there’s now only three classifications left that they can fall into:
    Fools, knaves and Flat-Earthers

  • Steve H

    The electro-magnetics that Rossi refers to may simply be solenoid valves. These are very common in the process and power industry – to control on/off flow. Sequential control and cycling is normally achieved via this process using programmable logic.

    • Steve H

      Apologies to 49er – I appear to have repeated his comment from an hour ago. I guess that’s what happens when you don’t read the comments first.

      • Fortyniner



    “A single car has about 30,000 parts, counting every part down to the smallest screws. Some of these parts are made at Toyota, but we also have lots of suppliers that make many of these parts. The 30,000 or so parts use different raw materials and different manufacturing processes. Making good parts requires a lot of research and development. Having the parts made by companies that have expertise in their own fields allows us to obtain high-quality parts. Toyota’s suppliers make seats, wheels, steering wheels, windshields, headlights, and meters, for example.

    Toyota uses a system in which the necessary parts are made in the needed amounts at the right times. A card called a “kanban” is attached to each parts box and describes the types and quantity of parts needed. This card also prevents the parts factories from making too many parts and the assembly process from having to allocate space to store parts that are not immediately needed.

    As just mentioned, about 30,000 parts are needed to make a car. Since Toyota makes cars exactly the way customers order them, each car is unique. That means that different parts have to be fitted in different cars. Using different parts results in different prices for the individual cars.”

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Maybe it’s a not-so-subtle hint that the 1 MW plant is a car – a retrofitted Ferrari:-)

      • artefact

        But, as Rossi would say: “A Ferrari without rumor. Without wrumm wruummm”

      • Andreas Moraitis

        With 1341 horse powers he might get problems in view of the speed limits in the USA.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          But the 1 MW is thermal while horsepower refers to mechanical power. At least factor 3 smaller: <450 hp.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Right. But still enough to collect a bunch of tickets….

      • Gerrit

        A Ferrari pulling a shipping container on a trailer.

        • Fortyniner

          Shh – you need to patent that concept before the electric car people are all over it!

          • Omega Z


            Tho not really practical, I imagine there will be a few who will attempt building novelty steam powered E-cat cars.
            Momentarily, You come to mind. Then I think- That’s silly.
            Anything 49’er built would likely be attached to paddles.

            Steaming down the Thames… 🙂

          • Fortyniner

            I don’t have a river license, but the idea of travelling the canals in a large steam paddle launch is very attractive. Unfortunately the inconvenience of constantly having to stop in order to pry the corpses of towpath walkers out of the paddles would make it impractical.

          • Omega Z

            “having to stop in order to pry the corpses of towpath walkers”

            Hummph, That Figures…Always someone getting in the way of progress, huh.

  • Axil Axil

    The Hot-Cat industrial plant could be designed to function without any moving parts or computers. The key to this design is to use a small diameter lithium moly heat pipe (2cm) to remove high temperature heat from the reactor core. A lithium heat pipe operates in the heat range between 900C and 1700C. This type of heat pipe has a heat transfer capability many of thousands of time grater than boiling water. In detail, the heat transfer capacity transfer heat at 125 kilowatts per square centimeter of surface area. Such heat transfer power could cool the surface of the Sun.

    Unlike Rossi’s system, such a system would operate at ambient pressure, well really the heat pipe operates at a slight vacuum. A CO2 turbine generator the size of a bread box could generate electric power. Alternatively, a closed cycle liquid metal magnetohydrodynamic generator (MHD generator) could do the job without any moving parts.

    Rossi will face devastating competition from advanced power plant designs when the mystery of the Hot-Cat core is resolved.

    • curious

      I, for one, look forward to competition in the field, devastating or otherwise.

    • Omega Z

      I don’t believe IH/Rossi will build power plants. They will more then likely license it for others to do. A Small entity can do a few things very well or a lot of things very poorly. Industrial Heat appears to be a small entity.

      However, The Big Boys have other options.
      GE/Siemens have spent decades in R&D and building large scale power plants with high efficiencies incrementally. A Slow painful expensive process.

      When considering smaller scale generating plants of which both have neglected major investment in, Rather then spend decades & billion$ for this expertise in small & efficient systems, they just went out & bought up smaller entities that have already accomplished this.

      This small entity just becomes another subsidiary or subdivision of the whole. Any areas the subsidiary has involvement in that doesn’t fit the purpose or criteria of the whole can be spun off separately or sold. GE/Siemens have done exactly this in the last year or 2.
      It’s like, They Knooowww…

      AS to Industrial Heat. Is it strictly a Venture Capitol Group, Or is it a Front. There is a dozen Entities involved of which we only know of 2 individual figureheads. The other Entities could include anyone including Corporations or Government. Their Identities are hidden from disclosure.

  • Sanjeev

    Ok, so 30 thousand places to hide batteries. Its a pathoskep heaven 😉
    Or did he count all those tiny electronic components on the PCBs?

    Seriously, if its really that many major parts only to heat water, then IH needs better engineers.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      The prototype plant is probably heavily instrumented for diagnostic purposes, everything is measured and logged or at least should be. Maybe that pushes up the part count.

    • Omega Z


      You overlook the fact that it’s doing more then heating water.
      Rossi says it operates between 100’C & 120’C so were talking steam & pressure which quickly becomes more complex.

      How many components are in a Locomotive that pulls the train. Yet it all begins with boiling water & if the pathoskeps don’t grasp that, who cares…

  • LuFong

    It’s interesting that Rossi is now referring to his 1MW plant as a “prototype.” This is a departure from past references wherein he implied the 1MW is a commercial product already on the market. Is this a lie or fraud or just Rossi being Rossi? I think a little bit of both.

    • bachcole

      Jeez, why is it so necessary for you to have such semantic certainty and for you to be so freaking negative. Things change. Get over it.

      • Fortyniner

        Semantic nit picking is one of the rapidly diminishing number of tools left to the trolls.

        • LuFong

          Frank used the terms “lie” and “fraud” in his post above.

    • Ged

      Beta testing.

    • ecatworld

      I asked Rossi about the use of the word ‘prototype’:

      Andrea Rossi

      February 2nd, 2015 at 2:43 PM

      Frank Acland,
      When I say “prototype” I mean that it is the first fully functioning commercial plant intended for long term use, supplied to a Customer that uses it for generate the heat necessary to make the production of his industry..
      Warm Regards,

      • LuFong

        Rossi forgot to add: “the final results could be positive, but also could be negative.”

      • Daniel Maris

        From what he says, I think we would refer to that as a pilot plant or pilot project.

      • Omega Z

        I think he interchanges Prototype with Pilot Plant. The latter being more accurate if it is intended as a permanent working installation.

  • timycelyn

    Since he has worked for IH I’d say he has been quite consistent – they seem to have very successfully tempered his enthusiastic and rather naive hyperbole which we were treated with in the early pre-IH years.

    So I don’t really understand or agree with your point. However I do find several indications in your mail that, sadly, makes me inclined to tentatively classify you as a 2 above…..

  • Albert D. Kallal

    It really is kind of relative. A Boeing 737 has about 367,000 parts and likely you can double that number if you start counting things like bolts and rivets. So now you WELL OVER 500,000 parts.

    I am not really sure that 30,000 parts is much of an issue one way or another.

    Of course some here might be new to engineering, and think that for some strange reason 300,000 parts for a plane is too much.

    If you counted transistors in a computer, then you are in millions of parts, each one that is a possible failure point.

    The simple issue is that over time such reactors will likely become far more simple. I recall the MESS of parts in the early VCR’s. Buy the time VCR’s were being phased out, the reduction in parts was astounding over the years. We will see the same thing occur for LENR devices.

    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Omega Z

      People prefer to count 1 table & 4 chairs. Not the couple hundred individual components they are made up of.

  • Ophelia Rump

    You seem to have missed the part where it was no longer about Rossi, and became about Industrial Heat.

    There are two possibilities I see with your position.

    1, You think you can do some kind of emotional extortion and force a proof out of a corporation by making negative statements.

    2, You are in a very dark and negative place, coping with depression can be a very difficult thing, you do not have to go through this difficult time alone. There is hope, there are things you can do to make it better.

    • GreenWin

      kemo=josh cude=popeye=droid behavior. These units don’t suffer depression as much a narcissistic personality.

  • Weihenstephaner

    Why do certain people have ugly and vomitogenous icons?
    Please, if you are gonna show your whole face, do it like Ophelia or AlianCo; or simply just use something symbolic like Clovis Ray; we are not interested in your zoomed up quarter face. The MSM uses this trick to invoke uggphobia by zooming in on the pics of mass murderers.
    Why uglify yourself? Otherwise you’d seem like a decent person.
    Doesn’t matter to me. But others might get turned-off from this website. But, perhaps that’s your goal? I simply – Ctrl C, Ctrl V (Word), Replace All ^g with blank. Why just to avoid seeing your icon.

    • georgehants

      Do you mean like bachcole?
      Only joking Roger. 🙂

    • I liked Clovis’ old icon better.

  • Jarea1

    Does it mean that each of the 100 ECAT has an output of 1kwh to reach the 1MWh? I guess in order to have, at least, a cop of 3 th ECATs have to be designed to work around 300-400w. Or will be some of the ECAT be used as redundant protection?
    What do you think?.from the efficient point of view a higher cop is more interesting.
    For what cop will be the 1MW plant be designed?
    From Lugano with 300-400W range we couldnt reach a nice COP so i guess they are low temperature ECATs.

    • Dr. Mike

      Your math is off by a factor of 10. To get a 1MW output you need 100 E-Cats operating at an average of 10KW each. Rossi has said these are the Low-T E-Cats. Everyone is awaiting the nominal COP number for the 1MW plant, but it will probably be late 2015 or early 2016 before any data is released.
      Dr. Mike

  • Dr. Mike

    If we take Rossi’s word that there are really 300 components needed for each E-Cat to make the 1MW system work, then this first system is really just in the prototype stage. When Rossi starts talking about 3-5 “modules” needed to control each E-Cat, then we will know he has a system ready for production. There certainly is not anything wrong with this first system being a prototype, but it does mean that mass production is easily 2-5 years down the road. Also, if the safety record on the 1MW systems is to be used to establish the safety of the E-Cat for home use, I don’t see how there will be a home unit on the market within the next 5 years.
    Dr. Mike

  • How many parts in one of these?

    • Gerrit

      How do we count the duct tape, per meter?

      • Tom&Jerry

        1. If the discontinuity of the tape is a function of length-limitations of a roll, ignore those discontinuities.
        2. Unique function of a tape application – edge protection, corner protection, puncture protection mid-panel, puncture protection near edge, weight lifting etc. counts separately.
        Exception: if one piece continues to perform function, it should be counted as one.
        3. In case of multiple layers, each layer (top/bottom) is a separate count.
        4. In case of tape – above and below – if the stress in level 1 tape is different from level 3 tape at least by half the stress of level 2 tape, then the three levels should be considered different and counted accordingly. Otherwise sustainability be one giant tape (magnified size), allows it to be called as one component err, element.

        May you still stay unfazed!

  • We should not forget:
    This is a prototype plant, made to collect as much data as possible. So I guess a large amount of these components could be sensors and measurement equipment which is not needed in the later production plant (for e.g. gamma ray sensors etc. needed for safety certification).

    • Fortyniner

      Good point.

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter, I like your mushroom, lets hope it never happens, especially in Somerset.
        How do you put a picture in the little square?

        • Fortyniner

          Morning George. Yes, I’m a bit too close for comfort (20 miles). You should be OK with the prevailing ‘westerlies’ but London would not be a place to be (I wonder if Cameron et al. realise that?).

          I made the little logo thingy a while back, but as I recall I used a bit of graphics s/w called Real Draw (much easier than Photoshop). The frame is a part of the image, sized by trial and error I suspect.

          • Omega Z


            Cameron is a politician. Obviously he doesn’t realize that.
            Your mushroom Icon is by far more suited to him then you. He IS in the dark and fed a lot of dung.

            And I’ll take a stab at this,
            Where as your use of the Icon is how you feel that they try to treat you.

          • Fortyniner

            Correct – it went with another ID I used briefly elsewhere in the past (‘Agaricus’). I’m tempted to switch back to that name here, but have just never got around to it..

    • Omega Z


      If you had 10 additional sensors for data collection of each reactor, that would only be 1000. I doubt there is that many additional sensors. Most of what is involved for Rossi to monitor would also be required for the computer to maintain the plants operation regardless of his presence.

      People tend to forget that there’s quite a difference between throwing a match to a metal box full of coal & what goes into building an operational Locomotive to actually pull the train.

  • Fortyniner

    If EM fields are a factor in kicking off or maintaining the ‘Rossi effect’ then it’s also conceivable that certain field frequencies might act to dampen down the exothermic reaction, which would provide a means of modulating it.

  • Omega Z

    With existing battery technology, Their cost is high & life cycle is short. This all leads to ever increasing electricity prices. Even if you used an E-cat generator, using batteries still results in higher electricity costs then we currently pay.

    It would be best to develop E-cat power plants that can increase & decrease energy production on demand & skip the batteries for such purposes.

  • Freethinker

    … and you are probably wrong in your many assumptions.

  • Gerrit

    According to Industrial Heat, a 1MW plant is currently active in the market, so that neatly fits with being ready for market a few years ago.

    I also assumed that the 1MW plant installed at the customer would be the hot cat technology, but apparently that specific customer application needs the lower temp ecat, so nothing wrong with that.

    Rossi has stated many times that the plant’s success will be evaluated after a 1 year operational test at the customer location. What more can to ask for ? Do you want Rossi to speed up time, so that 12 months fit into 4 months ?

    The results could still be negative, of course, the plant might not succeed in getting the promised COP, or the planned up time, or assumed fuel consumption. The steam valves might start leaking. Many things can still go wrong when it comes to commercial viability of the plant.

  • US_Citizen71

    Yes pathoskeps like you do seem to be moving backwards. You’ve gone from it can’t possibly be real followed by lots of personal attacks and innuendo to its going to take a really really long time and a little bit of innuendo. Definitely a reversal of course.

  • US_Citizen71

    Ever know the military to share information willingly without a court order?

  • Omega Z

    The 1Mw Lt E-cat pilot plant is not the same. Knowledge gained from the Hot cat research has been incorporated into the Lt-cat. It is now the improved Cat/Mouse configuration. This configuration is likely for enhanced control & possibly a gain in overall COP.

    If you recall, The Original 1Mw shipping container didn’t hold all the cats inside, At least a dozen were attached to the top side. From Rossi’s statements, They’ve been redesigned much smaller and now take up far less space & the Shipping container now encloses everything including the pumps & boiler. A Plug & Play design.

    From Rossi’s volume description, The 106 reactors now take up about the space of a refrigerator. He didn’t say exactly what the shape is. Circular or elongated, whatever.
    One of his posts indicate that he can redesign & exchange a reactor while the system is in operation, however this could be a miscommunication. We have no clarity on this.

    As to the Hot cat & some people thinking this was in use in the pilot plant. If not paying real close attention, I can understand the confusion. The Hot Cat is still very much in R&D. One of Rossi’s posts indicate that the reactor has already changed since the Alumina reactor seen in the Lugano TIP report.

    As to an Lt 1Mw E-cat verses a Ht 1Mw E-cat pilot plant.
    Risk factors of 120’C & Bar pressure slightly above 1 can get people seriously injured should something go wrong..
    Risk factors of 1200’C & Bar pressure around 100 can get people Killed should something go wrong..
    From a common sense perspective, Learning to control 100 reactors in concert at low temps, is a logical & Intelligent progression. What is learned can be applied to the High temp reactors drastically reducing Risk when it’s turn arrives.

    • Bernie777

      Very good summary, Omega Z.

  • Omega Z

    I had that Icon as 1 of my screen backgrounds on an older computer.
    I like it.
    Maybe someone should make an actual vomitogenous Icon so others can appreciate the one you use.

  • Bernie777

    We really do not know what is going on, any more than US citizens knew, in the 40’s, what the Manhatten Project was all about. I did like Rossi’s comment, “President Obama is among the greatest Presidents of the History of the USA.”

  • Omega Z

    Rossi has indicated that the customer will purchase said plant if satisfied, so my interpretation, pilot plant would be more correct, tho were probably splitting hairs.

    However, if the customer does buy it, then pilot plant it becomes.

    Components being the key word is vague.
    As to the number of “components”, I imagine most are necessary, but in time will evolve to needing fewer. Keep in mind tho, This component count includes everything involved for the task. Not just the E-cats.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Could Industrial Heat be making their own power control boards?
    Is it possible that they are so concerned about keeping the power management expertise in house that they do their own manufacturing of the power supplies? That would require quite a few components.

  • Mats Hilmersson

    JT Vaughn tells investigators Rossi appears not credible.

    • This looks authentic, but that doesn’t mean it is authentic. Awaiting any kind of confirmation.

      Assuming it is, the comment made by JT Vaughn that Rossi does not appear credible can be interpreted many ways. It could just have been a matter of fact statement acknowledging that Rossi’s work had not achieved widespread credibility in science circles. We all know that’s true. It doesn’t necessarily mean that JT Vaughn is saying Rossi is a fraud. Industrial Heat’s actions are not consistent with that statement. Companies don’t build 30,000 component plants to satisfy someone’s ego. It could also be Vaughn shielding the effort from prying eyes.

      The report indicates an empty warehouse at 6025 Triangle Drive with no signs of any radiation. They were just looking for radiation, not doing a general investigation of Industrial Heat. Looks like this was a feint of some kind or maybe is just office space for support staff?

      It also says the reactors were being made in Florida. If true, I find that interesting. I had assumed NC.

      • Jim Fogleman, money man for Cherokee, supposedly met the radiation inspectors at the (unused?) Triangle Drive building at Vaugn’s request and denied any knowledge of Rossi or what that building was being used for.

        I mean, how is that even possible?


      • Forgive my self-replies but this is a great case in point of the conflicting data we have to deal with on this story. In the same week:

        Mats Lewan: I have reason to believe the 1 MW plant exists and works.
        Radiation guys: Vaughn said Rossi doesn’t *appear* credible, but we paraphrase.
        Scenario Real: Lewan hears from another insider, perhaps one with first hand knowledge, that the plant is the real deal. But Mats draws the line there presumably protecting a source. Radiation guys get stiff-armed by Vaughn and company regarding any real info (with falsehoods and misdirection) as they must working on a project protected by Federal secrecy laws… but let them sniff around the facility in question so they can satisfy their radiation requirements. Vaugn gives them enough squirrely language about Rossi that some finds its way into their report. Fogleman plays dumb.

        Scenario Fake: There is no plant or working reactors. Industrial Heat long ago uncovered Rossi as a fraud and are just trying to bury it to avoid embarrassment, ignoring his falsehoods on JoNP and slowly building their legal case against him so they can get their money back. Rossi is feeding Lewan tidbits to keep him on the hook. The radiation guys show up and are told straightforwardly that Rossi never panned out and the facility he was going to use on Triangle Drive never saw any action, but go ahead and take your measurements anyway.

        As this radiation report is the first piece of potentially negative information after a series of very positive pieces of info, I still remain solidly in Camp Real. But if this turns into the first of an avalanche of negative data points then it’s a different ball game.