MFMP Testing Plans Disrupted by Equipment Failure

UPDATE – Feb 4th: The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project’s testing plans for today have been disrupted by a major equipment failure:

Here’s a post from the MFMP Facebook Page:

“Move fast and break things. Unless you are breaking stuff, you are not moving fast enough.” — Mark Zukerberg
AAARRRGGHH!!! We did not intend to take this inspirational quote so seriously. The Optris thermal camera is dead. It apparently died in the same event that took out the broadcast computer. Once we got another computer set up, we found the camera would not talk. Then we plugged it into two other computers we had tested it with previously. No go. A mouse and at least one web cam seem to be dead as well. Needless to say, we are disappointed and this will change our plans even more. Stay tuned”.

Feb 2nd: I’ve just received a YouTube link to the live test they will be carrying out today.

Here’s the description from the YT video:

“In this first Lugano verification experiment – we will be trying to test the validity of the thermal assessment by Calibration with Thermocouples, emissivity spots, Optris camera, and Williamson Pyrometer.”

Direct link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/embed/0DY4TJmCJS8

  • ecatworld

    Feed is live now.

  • Private Citizen

    Maybe some member of the MFMP team not actively involved with the hardware could supply color commentary for the video?

    Would be nice to know what is happening at the moment–what is the state of affairs and what is the goal or expected outcome. I know they are busy, but part of the job is informing the public.

    • artefact

      Normaly Bob gives an overview from time to time.

  • ecatworld

    apprve

    • Timar

      Is this heavy moderation really necessary? It is sometimes kind of annoying that it takes so long for my comments to appear. This time it didn’t work because you produced a typo 😉

  • Chris the 2nd

    They seem to be having the same trouble some of Rossi’s tester had in the past, getting dodgy readings for power.

  • Sanjeev

    I see. His blogs are informative but difficult to read sometimes.

  • Chris the 2nd

    Quote “There’s no way we are getting 800watts into that”

    This really is a demonstration of how the team early on trying to test Rossi’s device could have been getting it wrong.

    At least MFMP are recognising that the readings are clearly wrong.

  • Chris the 2nd

    Looks like it’s been fixed, phew

  • Ged

    I think they are limited by their slow DSL, sadly.

  • Ged

    On the other hand, it’s very good to see the camera constantly running near the b-type between it and the k-type. Shows the camera method is at least not completely different, and so far accurate (or at least consistent with other methods) up to where I last checked at 500 C. Important details for Lugano ;).

    • Bob Greenyer

      Our streaming computer went down

      Will re-launch asap.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Even before the computer went down, there were problems with the data at hugnetlab. It was not updated regularly – as in some of the previous tests. Thanks, anyway, for the great show!

  • artefact

    Tomorrow.. maybe. Today is only a test of the equipment.

    • Ged

      And a test of the control… And if they get the mock heater running, a test verification of the power necessary to give a 1400 C reading at the surface measured by the camera (as well as what it looks like visually). Very important details for evaluating Lugano.

    • bachcole

      Thank you, artefact and Ged. Keep me posted. It seems like Bob Greenyer is so into the details that he forgot to mention that. Or, Bob threw so many details at me that I stopped reading. (:->)

      Please keep me posted of any important developments.

  • artefact
    • artefact

      Yes Bob. Could’t wait. Found the link via youtube..

  • webscience

    Good luck tomorrow!

    • Bob Greenyer

      Alan Goldwater’s Colour Calibrator

      []=Project Dog Bone=[]

      Here is a video of the colour calibrator we will be testing later. It has four hot zones each with a thermocouple, spot of 0.95 emissivity high temperature matt paint and a dab of the castable alumina we use on the dog bones.

      http://youtu.be/zG3rag-Xd_A

  • Ged

    Youtube does weird things sometimes. It used to always get stuck at 301 views for along periods of time on really popular videos. Afterall, you are viewing it right there and then and somehow Youtube hasn’t noticed… Unless you are a cyber ninja… Are you a cyber ninja?! You read it here first, folks! Webofscience is a diabolical cyber ninja here to slice all our cyber fruits!

  • Ged

    Well, with this first round done, we can see the camera gets no where near 1400 C at a 900 W input. Still hotter than the other methods (about 100 C higher than the pyrometer and the B-type).

    Interestingly, looking at the pictures in the Google folder, specifically DB-Calibration_4.jpg, area 5 is 433.6 C at 200 W input, while in the Lugano report on page 17, area 5 is 454.3 C at 318 W input or so.

    So, it seems the MFMP camera is running about 100 C hotter per 100 W (? need to check the accuracy of that comparison better) than the Lugano dummy run, which is in agreement with the MFMP camera also being ~100 C higher than the B-type and the Williamson.

  • Bob Greenyer

    We will be testing the “fat coil” Dog Bone next with a dummy core to see what photos look like, to see if we can see the “core” through the rests of the reactor.

    The “fat coil” will be driven by the United Automation controller through a transformer, as it needs very low volts and high amps. The inner “dummy core” coil will be driven by the variac. We might see if the PCE830 can monitor the power on both.

    • Ged

      Awesome guys! Very much looking forward to seeing what this looks like and what results you get for the power in.

    • Gerard McEk

      Bob, your dogbone looks exactly like the hot cat, well done! Did you make it yourself or can you order it somewhere, or partly?
      I evidently missed something: What is the ‘fat coil’? Why do you have both the dummy core coil and the fat coil and what is the difference between the two (apart from the resistance)? Temperature resistance?
      Will you continue your test today without the life feed, if need to be?
      Thanks to the team for your hard work, hope you will succeed!

  • ecatworld

    I have posted the timeline in a separate thread (http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/02/03/mfmps-project-dog-bone-thread-update-1-first-test-on-dummy-core/), and will open a dedicated thread to the fueled core experiment when it begins.

  • The likes are probably more immediate than the views. I’ve noticed a big lag when it comes to analytics .

  • Sanjeev

    So how does the emissivity curve look like ? Has anyone plotted it ?

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Very important question. With different emissivities, the temperature/power ratios would not be comparable to those of the Lugano report. At least, one would have to redo the math…

      • Gerard McEk

        Andreas, I have read the LiHn metalic hydrogen paper you recommended to me. Was a bit too heavy for me, but the conclusion was interesting. Has super conductivity already been measured on LiHn?
        Just a question about that other article about liquid H2 on the sun surface: Apart from the high temperature, making it unlikely, also the sun’s mass would be much more. How it that explained? Is Lithium a part of the explanation?
        Thanks, Gerard

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Hi Gerard. I’m anything but an expert, so I can only provide some links. In this paper http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.21.1748 (no full text available), HT-superconductivity of metallic hydrogen is considered possible. BCS theory of superconductivity refers to Cooper pairs of electrons, but I don’t know how their formation at high temperatures is justified in this special case.

          The relatively high average density (and therefore mass) of the sun is usually explained by the extreme pressures inside. While gas or plasma is compressible, liquid metallic hydrogen would resist compression – see p. 9 of Robtaille’s paper http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/2011/PP-26-07.PDF . So it might be possible that his theory is consistent with the known data on the sun’s mass and diameter. I guess that Pekka knows the theory of Robtaille, he could tell you much more about it.

          Here is some additional stuff: http://vixra.org/author/pierre-marie_robitaille .

          • Andreas Moraitis

            By the way: According to the paper you mention, lithium facilitates the metallization of hydrogen. As far as I remember, the postulated metallic LiHn is described as a solid – so it is difficult to say what would happen in the liquid phase.

  • Josh G

    MFMP Facebook page says the motherboard on the computer running their live stream shorted out…hope to have it up and running again soon. Good luck guys!!

  • ecatworld

    “In the morning we will prepare fuelled cores whilst we are waiting for a new means to broadcast.”

  • Will MFMP conduct the fuel-test anyway, however the mainboard crashed and we don’t have a live stream?

  • Bob Greenyer

    We have a new laptop and are configuring it right now for the next test but it appears that the event that took out the broadcast computer, also took out the Optris, not good.

  • Bob Greenyer

    The optris is dead.

    • EEStorFanFibb

      not to kook out on you Bob, but how secure is your lab from malicious cyber attacks?

    • Jarea1

      What does it mean? Can we continue with test or not?

      • Bob Greenyer

        We are continuing other tests

        We have also prepared some reactors.

    • Can you do the fuel test anyway? And measure if you get excess heat?

      • Bob Greenyer

        We will try tomorrow.

    • Ged

      Dang, that sucks… What a kick in the head. Is it the cabling that fried, or the actual device?

      • Bob Greenyer

        We think (and hope) it is just the in-camera USB communication board. The guy from Optris suspected this. USB controllers are quite susceptible to a surge.

    • Sanjeev

      If its under warranty, optris should be able to repair it.

      Usually such instruments have a separate power supply brick (like in a laptop) and are not connected to the wall directly. At least they have a fuse.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Optris were great about it. The camera has to go back anyway next week, we’ll get an answer in time.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      Ugh. So it was going back anyway. Hopefully, you won’t be held responsible. Stray voltages on the frame, eh? Something not grounded. Folks, we are lucky this only took out a computer and the Optris! Something that could fry a computer, and probably the camera through a data cable, isn’t just a little ground noise that could whack some measurements. It would be very dangerous.

      • Bob Greenyer

        We are without Optris, but we got some great data.

        We are now testing the “Glow through” question right now

      • Bob Greenyer

        Yes, we are lucky. Thanks for your concern.

  • Gerard McEk

    That’s a pitty guys.
    Maybe you can use the Parkhomov method for the time being? A few pans a bit of water and ready you are…
    I hope you can repair the instruments soon.
    Good luck!

    • Bob Greenyer

      We have built some *GlowSticks* and will fuel them tomorrow.

  • Freethinker

    It’s too bad, as these devices do not grow on trees…

    Hope it is fixable, and the core of the Optris was not damaged, but rather a fuse, or equivalent, inexpensive circuit component, was fried.

    My fingers are X-ed, guys.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Thanks Freethinker.

      We think we explored the main question from Lugano regarding the thermal assessment and will run another test relating to this tomorrow.

  • Jarea1

    Please MFMP team don´t give up and please contract a good insurance for the equipment we cannot let this things to stop us from the discovery!!!!

  • Bob Greenyer

    DB Glowiness…

    []=Project Dog Bone=[]

    We are back up and running, with a test designed to answer three questions.

    1. How much power can we get into a dog bone
    2. do we see the dummy core “glowing” through this dog bones “fat coil” on standard photos
    3. with a “fat coil” are the internal and external temperatures closer

    http://youtu.be/O6m884fr198

    The snapshot folder is

    https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bz7lTfqkED9WfmZIbTIxekRobFUtMFBvZkJDU3J6WEdCLU4ySXZCa2N0eEo5dVdETVNKaEk&usp=sharing

    • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

      so no powder test today?

      • Bob Greenyer

        We are preparing cores.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Not today. We do hope to do one tomorrow.

    • Sanjeev

      Can you do the current clamp reversal trick today and see what the PCE display is like ?

      • Bob Greenyer

        We did that today (by accident) on the Dog Bone with the dummy core. It is on the recording of the live feed. It just produced a negative reading as previously reported by another party for that phase. We swapped it round and all was good.

        • Ged

          So not a numerical error; or at least one one wouldn’t notice, but a straight up negative? Interesting too, thank you for the info.

        • Sanjeev

          For single phase it will just show a negative reading with phase angle of 180.
          You will need a 3 phase delta connected load to see what reversal of one of the clamp does. If you remember this was a major criticism of the report.
          So I guess it will need a small setup to check it.

          • Bob Greenyer

            You are right.

    • Ged

      Thank you for this data! Interesting indeed. Can definitely see shadows of the coils in the pictures posted, until it gets too bright and saturates the cam. Seems things only got pushed up to 1 kW input, with temps near 1000 C? That is interesting in and of itself. Was it a failure of components, or just decided to stop there? Guess I just gotta be patient and wait for the write-up, but it’s so fun chewing on this data like a dog with a bone.

  • Mitchell Swartz mentioned a large pile of burnt out (expensive) electronic equipment. Seems the nature of the beast.

  • Mr. Moho

    It looks like their microphone failed too.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Sorry, the I unplugged the camera that was providing the Audio as it was playing up. I will make sure the Audio is coming from the main camera tomorrow. The Glowiness Part 2 SiC video was where we were just “baking out” the SiC element (which we have left on overnight). Tomorrow we will run it up to temperature and calibrate it.