The Ultimate Dog Bone (Axil Axil)

The following post was submitted by Axil Axil

The Ultimate Dog Bone

I would like to now get something on the open source record and remove the concept from patent trolls and  proprietary non disclosure. This concept is formulated to eliminate the Blast problem that has been seen in the alumina tube based LENR experiments conducted by MFMP and the Russians.

My idea is to hit the LENR problem with a top end solution even if it is an expensive one, then value engineer the solution with more cost effective materials when everything is working.

The concept is formulated on a currently existing prototype that is currently under consideration to meet the extreme heat and the harsh and extremely challenging plasma environments found in the plasma facing components of hot fusion reactors which could serve LENR well.

I love the use of heat pipes in reactors and I wondered if a device could be engineered to incorporate the best of that concept into what the ultimate LENR reactor would look like. To my surprise, the idea has been developed but for another set of applications.

The idea is simple, and aimed at solving some of the problems that recent tests of the alumna tube designs are displaying in experimentation. Heat pipes and heat exchangers have been designed and prototyped comprised of a tungsten pipe filled with high porosity(~95%) tungsten foam.

Such a heat pipe can transfer heat up to 40 times move efficiently than non foam filled heat pipes.  The heat flow in the current implementation of this design removes heat from the surface to a coolant gas flowing inside the pipe. In the LENR design the heat path would be reversed, with heat  moving from the inside of the pipe to its surface.

As in the DGT reactor design, the nickel powder would be distributed in the metal foam so that the reaction area of the exposed nickel powder is maximized and well distributed. In this concept, the powder would be spread throughout the volume of the foam thereby being lifted from the floor of the tube.

The Lithium aluminum hybrid is discomposed at operating temperature to form high pressure hydrogen gas and lithium vapor. This gas envelope greatly increases the heat transfer capacity of the reactor from the interior of the tube to the surface as amplified and conducted by the metal foam. An axial hole bored though the center of the tungsten foam will allow this envelope gas mixture to spread heat isothermally and rapidly down the entire length of the tube.

This extremely fast heat removal will work to eliminate hot spots that have produced overheat blasts in the alumina reactors.

Tungsten is impervious to hydrogen and lithium exfiltration. Tungsten being very dense is an excellent heat conductor and resists chemical contamination and intrusions. It has a high vapor pressure and therefore will not produce vapor at reactor operating temperatures.

Tungsten has a melting point of 3695 K ​(3422 °C, ​6192 °F) and a boiling point of 6203 K ​(5930 °C, ​10706 °F).

I doubt that this reactor will melt down or vaporize, but if it does, it would be a sight to see.

Tungsten is strong enough to contain a huge amount of gas pressure and is ductile enough to contain hot spot blasts.

Some references covering past developments as follows:

http://www.fusion.ucla.edu/apex/14th-topical2000/sharafat-pres.pdf

Enhanced Surface Heat Removal Using a Porous Tungsten Heat
Exchanger

http://www.fusion.ucla.edu/apex/meeting13/PT2P10Final.pdf

THERMAL PERFORMANCE OF A DUAL-CHANNEL, HELIUM-COOLED, TUNGSTEN HEAT EXCHANGER

You will be pleased to notice that Thermacore, one of the LENR early researchers, has developed this concept for hot fusion reactors under development. This concept is not new to them. For those interested is getting their hands on this type of reactor, go to Thermacore, Inc. for a prototype. This company looks to be a custom design shop that can price and fabricate a prototype if given a comprehensive specification.

Thermacore, Inc.
Corporate Headquarters
780 Eden Rd.
Lancaster, PA 17601
Phone: 717-569-6551
Fax: 717-569-8424
E-mail: info@thermacore.com

Cross posted to Ego Out

Axil Axil

 

  • Gerard McEk

    I believe the usage of heat pipes for Rossi-like hot LENR reactors seems a good idea to me.

    Just some questions about the tungsten design Axil,
    Heat pipes are normally hermetically closed pipes. This one must be opened and closed to exchange fuel and also the ends of the pipe will be very hot. Any idea how to do this?
    How do you intend to supply heat and control the LENR reaction?

    I saw that on Alibaba.com you can buy tungsten pipes (10-100 $/kg), so it is may be not that expensive, but surely more that the ceramic solution and it may indeed solve some problems.

    • Axil Axil

      In a heat pipe, the vapor in the pipe helps to maintain the same temperature throughout the volume of the pipe because the heat is carried by supersonic vapor currents, so the ends will not be hot in comparison to the other parts of the pipe.

      Being a metal, one end of the pipe could be threaded to receive a gasketed pressure proof screw tight seal using a end cap. The lithium aluminum hydride and nickel micro particles fuel load could be loaded into the screw top end as required.

      As long as there is a transition between liquid and vapor lithium, there will be a heat pipe effect produced inside the pipe. The pipe should be engineered to have a hot end and a cold end as in any heat pipe.

  • Gerard McEk

    I believe the usage of heat pipes for Rossi-like hot LENR reactors seems a good idea to me.

    Just some questions about the tungsten design Axil,
    Heat pipes are normally hermetically closed pipes. This one must be opened and closed to exchange fuel and also the ends of the pipe will be very hot. Any idea how to do this?
    How do you intend to supply heat and control the LENR reaction?

    I saw that on Alibaba.com you can buy tungsten pipes (10-100 $/kg), so it is may be not that expensive, but surely more that the ceramic solution and it may indeed solve some problems.

    • Axil Axil

      In a heat pipe, the vapor in the pipe helps to maintain the same temperature throughout the volume of the pipe because the heat is carried by supersonic vapor currents, so the ends of the pipe will not be hot in comparison to the other parts of the pipe.

      Being a metal, one end of the pipe could be threaded to receive a gasketed pressure proof screw tight seal using a end cap. The lithium aluminum hydride and nickel micro particles fuel load could be loaded into the screw top end as required.

      As long as there is a transition between liquid and vapor lithium, there will be a heat pipe effect produced inside the pipe. The pipe should be engineered to have a hot end and a cold end as in any heat pipe.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    This might be a good idea if cooling of the reaction sites could quench the reaction in case of an impending runaway. However, we cannot take for granted that the core temperature is the main, or the only relevant factor. In case that the energy transfer from the reaction sites is primarily of a radiative nature (I do not mean exclusively IR), the reactor walls, and possibly the resistor coils, could be heated up much more than the core itself. The observation that the outer temperature of the Hot-Cat can reach almost the melting point of nickel (provided that the numbers from the Lugano report are correct) points into this direction.

    To prevent a runaway, an intelligent control system that not only reacts but foresees what could happen the next few seconds might be practical. It should be able to control the reaction itself, maybe not only by temperature, but also by other means (EM pulses etc.). In case that an emergency cut-off is unavoidable, it could even be necessary to supply additional heat so that the fuel melts and the reaction stops, as Rossi repeatedly said.

    • Axil Axil

      The heat transfer characteristics of a lithium based phase change heat pipe is 10,000 times more efficient than convective cooling. A heat pipe is at lease 200 times more heat conductive than a pure silver bar.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

      In a heat pipe, heat is transferred almost instantaneously through supersonic heat transfer by a vapor to keep the heat distribution throughout the pipe isothermal (No possibility of a hot spot).

      • Andreas Moraitis

        These numbers sound undoubtedly impressive, but one should consider the possibility that in a runaway situation the reaction continues even if cooling is effective enough to avoid a meltdown. In this case the reactor might start to produce intense radiation or other unwanted side effects. Of course, that’s only a theoretical option which could be ruled out by testing.

  • Bob Greenyer

    We considered the use of tungsten as a heating element but the immediate problem was its very low oxidation temperature. It starts to oxidise at 300ºC and but 600ºC it starts oxidising readily.

    http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=4025324&fileOId=4025329

    Would this have any effect on your concept?

    Also, we had also considered a copper heat-pipe as a coil surrounding the DB to be an effective Induction heating source if necessary. Maybe with some low viscosity thermal transfer silicone based oil

    http://www.globalheattransfer.co.uk/heat-transfer-fluids#.VOCOKRYyZdw

    • Axil Axil

      The surface of the tungsten reactor could be treated with a carbon based paint that will produce a protective layer of tungsten carbide at the 1100C to 1400C operating temperature of the reactor. This coating will protect the reactor from oxidation. However, this coating process will occur naturally when the reactor core is exposed to CO2 which I believe would be the beat coolant (see below).

      Tungsten has good heat element characteristics and is used in industry for that purpose. A current could be applied directly to the tungsten pipe without the need for a induction heating source to provide an evenly distributed heat.

      http://www.xiamentungsten.com/Tungsten-Heater-Elements.html

      I would think that super critical CO2 coolant would be preferred as a heat transfer medium flowing through an enclosing stainless steel shell might be used to run as electric turbine in a closed circuit . Such a turbine (300 Megawatts) is as big as a bread box.

      http://phys.org/news/2014-10-first-of-a-kind-supercritical-co2-turbine.html

      And

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXAV8u4h8aU

  • Mike Henderson

    I don’t like the idea of spreading the powder around the reactor because I believe the crystals need to be closely packed and even to sinter a bit in order to generate inter- intracrystalline conditions necessary for LENR to occur.
    Most LENR theorists believe the reaction does not happen at surfaces, as occurs in traditional catalyzed chemical reactions. Rather they seem to believe LENR is an effect that is driven by the tight constraints imposed by the crystalline lattice. Grain boundaries, lattice defects, and surface conditions play a role in creating places where the local electron field allows free protons, free neutrons, and / or metal nuclei to interact more closely than they can in an unconstrained region.
    So I think packed, fine-grain, and partially sintered powders are important.

    • Axil Axil

      Yes packing of nano particles is required. But that happens in the gas envelope when nano particles of lithium and hydrogen and maybe aluminum aggregate together. The function of the nickel particles is to pump EMF (tight anapole magnetic beams) into the free floating nano particle aggregates.

  • Mike Henderson

    I don’t like the idea of spreading the powder around the reactor because I believe the crystals need to be closely packed and even to sinter a bit in order to generate inter- intracrystalline conditions necessary for LENR to occur.
    Most LENR theorists believe the reaction does not happen at surfaces, as occurs in traditional catalyzed chemical reactions. Rather they seem to believe LENR is an effect that is driven by the tight constraints imposed by the crystalline lattice. Grain boundaries, lattice defects, and surface conditions play a role in creating places where the local electron field allows free protons, free neutrons, and / or metal nuclei to interact more closely than they can in an unconstrained region.
    So I think packed, fine-grain, and partially sintered powders are important.

    • Axil Axil

      Yes packing of nano particles is required. But that happens in the gas envelope when nano particles of lithium and hydrogen and maybe aluminum aggregate together. The function of the nickel particles is to pump EMF (tight anapole magnetic beams) into the free floating nano particle aggregates.

  • SteveW

    Ok, I’ve also been kicking this idea around for a couple of months. Basically, instead of using expensive and problematic resistance heating, use a (disposable) fuel rod immersed into a medium for heat transfer. This fuel rod would contain the LENR fuel in a sealed tube whose properties are chosen to readily transfer heat (possibly as you suggested Tungsten). This medium acts to both heat and cool the reactant fuel and maintain the reaction. These fuel rods are placed into substantially a heat ex changer type vessel or reactor, Coo lent pipes then pass through this vessel in order to transfer heat. The obvious choice for the medium and coolant would be a type of molten salt. A lower temperature molten salt would flow into this reactor through coolant pipes and leave the reactor as high temperature molten salt and into a high temperature molten salt storage tank. This high temperature molten salt storage tank could then be used to run turbines, etc. After heat is extracted from this high temperature molten salt by the turbines or whatever, a low temperature molten salt would flow from such device into a low temperature molten salt storage tank. The low and high temperature molten salt storage tanks function as a battery to buffer the output heat of the reactor and provide power as demand requires. The reactor is controlled by adjusting the flow rate of the coolant pipes through the reactor to maintain the reactors desired operating temperature. The operating temperature of the reactor can be adjusted to produce the desired amount of heat or power assuming a reactor running at a higher temperature would produce more power. This reactor may also contain a means for circulating the molten salt medium within the reactor in order to maintain an even temperature within the reactor. The placement of coolant pipes coming into the reactor may also be arranged in such a way to maintain an even temperature throughout the reactor.

    Using the very high operating temperature of the hot-cat, you would need to use Sodium Chloride with a very high melting-point temperature in the reactor. However, Sodium Chloride is not generally used in power generation because it requires such high and problematic temperatures. However, I think the engineering of such a high temperature reactor is feasible. The coolant system containing the high and low temperature molten salt could use a lower temperature salt then the reactor vessel since the two do not mix.

    A final note, I think the Hot-cat is disinformation in order to keep competitors on the wrong track. A believe a fuel with a lower temperature operating range is feasible and much desirable and is probably what is in the original E-cat. What is the operating range of the original E-cat? The hot-cat looks cool when it is glowing red-hot but it’s overkill- you don’t need or want that much heat to produce electricity, it just causes engineering problems. I doubt a resistance coil operating at that high of a temperature will ever be practical. Could the resistance coil even last through a six-month run- let alone be refilled.

    • builditnow

      Steve W: Good design idea, control heat excursions, control running temperature as a way to control power output, extract heat to apply it usefully, COP likely very high. See above for platinum heat pipe design.

      With regards to the Hot-Cat temperature, Jet turbines often operate at 1200C. Some modern high tech turbines using natural gas can approach 2000C, so, there is use for this high temperature. As an aside, reports of Cold Fusion experiments melting through lab tables and into concrete floors indicate that perhaps there is a plasma state warm fusion that also works. I think SRI had a meltdown that went through the concrete foundation of the basement to some considerable depth, if I recall correctly. Experimenter don’t like to mention these meltdowns as the sound to fantastic. That said, many applications don’t need this exotic temperature and much lower temperatures will do. But, I’d love to convert a small jet engine to run on hot cats, totally self contained with generator attached. Or, for fun, a model aircraft jet engine, then fly it in public for large audiences for a couple of weeks. The news media would be choking.

      • SteveW

        I think your idea of using a heat pipe inside a Rossi style alumina tube reactor is a good idea. It should solve the problem with, as you call them “heat excursions” (I like that) within the reactor tube. Though it wasn’t fully explained, I imagine the heat pipe would run though the now insulated alumina reactor and extend out into basically a heat exchanger. The problem I see with this arrangement is the fact the heat pipe transfers heat so quickly- almost instantly, that the heat pipe will effectively balance the temperature inside the reactor with the temperature inside the heat exchanger. Therefore, the coolant inside the heat exchanger needs to be the same temperature as the operating range of the reactor. So I ask why not just put the reactor (what I call a fuel rod) directly into the heat exchanger. In addition, if you put the fuel rod directly into the heat exchanger, I don’t think a heat pipe inside the reactor tube/ fuel rod is necessary. The medium surrounding the tungsten shelled fuel rod should be more than adequate to transfer heat between the reactant fuel and the medium (molten salt) and maintain and prevent heat excursions of the reactant fuel. As I have mentioned, I think it may be necessary to provide circulation within the heat exchanger

        The reactor I envision would look a lot like a heat exchanger except having fuel rods intermixed with the coolant pipes. In addition a centrally located agitator may be necessary to provide circulation of the molten salt medium in order to provide an even temperature throughout the reactor.

        The question still remains whether electromagnetic stimulation is required to maintain/ control these reactions. I completely agree with you that if they are needed, they can be introduced with a simple coil rather than as a power hungry by product of the resistance coil. In the above mentioned reactor, a coil could extend around the outside of the insulated reactor vessel. If a coil is needed the diameter of the mentioned reactor may be somewhat limited. I suspect electromagnetic stimulation is not actually needed or may not be needed in this type of reactor because the heat would be so evenly distributed.

        This type of reactor may benefit from the use of a centrally located heat pipe within each fuel rod in that it may allow the fuel rod to scale to a size substantially larger than could be achieved with just a tube filled with reactant fuel alone since cross-sectional area of reactant fuel would be greatly reduced.

        For all I know, a reactor design utilizing heat pipe technology may be the answer – i just haven’t seen a design that addresses effective, useful heat extraction.

        • Axil Axil

          Using heat as a pump to stimulate the reaction may not be apocopate in LENR reactor designs that feature heat pipe thermal transport for all the reasons that you have listed.. A more elegant approach might be the use of an electric arc to stimulate the reaction.

          • SteveW

            So your thinking of a DGT type device which utilized a spark plug to provide an electric arc.

  • Ged

    An interesting aspect to note is that some research has suggested Tungsten can participate in LENR, even in place of nickel (not nearly as good, but has similar crystal lattice geometry) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CirilloDtransmutat.pdf , and was also used in the Mitsubishi transmutation experiments. Tungsten into platinum could have impacts on long time scales dependent on rate.

    • Bob Greenyer

      According to Piantelli, ALL transition metals can participate.

      Aluminium does not and Oxygen stops it. Alumina is therefore a good vessel.

      • Axil Axil

        If your belief that Alumina does not participate in the LENR reaction, why does the alumina (composed of aluminum and oxygen) produce ruby dust when the Hot cat melts down? It is my belief that any element or compound that produces nano particles will generate a LENR reaction. Even concrete will vaporize in a LENR meltdown and that compound contains oxygen.

        Piantelli’s reactor does not usually get hot enough for a dust based reaction to set into motion except in the rare case when his heactor melts down.

        From Ego out

        PROF. FRANCESCO PIANTELLIS WARNING

        Reading about Mats Lewan story about the scarry vision of a post-runaway reactor of Giuseppe Levi, showing that very high temperatures were attained inside, Prof. Francesco Piantelli has written me about an analogous case in his NiH line of research. He spoke about a photography made by Steve Krivit of one of Piantelii’s rods- 10 cm long, 5mm diameter having a portion of 3 mm approx. that shows as molten and in part evaporated; a sensor attache to it was completely destroyed and the ceramic on it fused. This runaway has happened in in 1994. Piantelli warns that high temperatures and pressures can intensify the parasitic secondary processes that lead the reactions out of control. Very good protection is necessary.

        • Bob Greenyer

          My point was more about avoiding structural materials that could participate in the primary reaction.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Iraj Parchamazad does LENR with palladium loaded zeolites
          (aluminosilicates). So, maybe the alumina could play a role in the reaction.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L-lKozWjSA#t=396

          • Axil Axil

            The theory explained in this experiment is very good but experimentally intuitive thereby lacking depth in terms of ultimate theoretical causation. LENR is topological in nature and based on EMF based plasmonic nano particle and nano cavity EMF interactions.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Yes, it may facilitate.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            „Deuterium gas diffuses through the reactor without pressure.“ (7 : 25)

            This is an extremely interesting aspect. Pressure is likely the most critical factor with regard to safety. Could that work as well with nickel and light hydrogen? Nickel-zeolite catalysts are used in the chemical industry, so perhaps an appropriate material is already available.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Yeah Andreas, Maybe bis(cyclooctadiene)nickel(0) could be mixed with various zeolites and then heat to release the nickel(0) onto (or into) the zeolite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis%28cyclooctadiene%29nickel%280%29

        • Bob Greenyer

          Ruby is RED because of Chromium impurities in corundum (alumina).

          Stoyan Sarg has predicted that Chromium would produce more excess but need a higher working temperature.

          It may be that in those reactors that produced “Ruby dust” Chromium was used at least whole or in Part. There is no claims as to what was in the reactors that failed in this way, so it is entirely possible that Chromium was there.

          • Axil Axil

            Chromium was an element that comprised an alloy component of the stainless steel in the outer tube of the blast shell which vaporized. Both the vaporized alumina and the vaporized stainless steel intermingled ensue and combined chemically in the plasma state. When the plasma cooled back into the solid state, Ruby was formed. The remaining stainless steel vapor became small spheres of solidified iron condensate.

            The reaction can get very hot during a meltdown. Consider tungsten!

          • Bob Greenyer

            That is a plausible, we simply do not know, it is all conjecture.

          • Axil Axil

            If we take the words of Rossi at face value, we must ask how his experimental observations could occur. We know about those experimental results because Rossi has performed a number of intentional meltdowns on Hot cat reactors with an alumina core and a stainless steel shell that he reports to us as follows:

            Andrea Rossi

            December 28th, 2013 at 8:32 PM

            James Bowery:

            Very sorry, I cannot answer to this question exhaustively, but I can say something. Obviously, the experiments are made with total respect of the safety of my team and myself. During the destructive tests we arrived to reach temperatures in the range of 2,000 Celsius degrees, when the “mouse” excited too much the E-Cat, and it is gone out of control, in the sense that we have not been able to stop the raise of the temperature ( we arrived on purpose to that level, because we wanted to study this kind of situation). A nuclear Physicist, analysing the registration of the data, has calculated that the increase of temperature (from 1,000 Celsius to 2,000 Celsius in about 10 seconds), considering the surface that has increased of such temperature, has implied a power of 1 MW, while the Mouse had a mean power of 1.3 kW. Look at the photo you have given the link of, and imagine that the cylinder was cherry red, then in 10 seconds all the cylinder became white-blue, starting from the white dot you see in the photo ( after 1 second) becoming totally white-blue in the following 9 seconds, and then an explosion and the ceramic inside ( which is a ceramic that melts at 2,000 Celsius) turned into a red, brilliant stone, like a ruby. When we opened the reactor, part of the AISI 310 ss steel was not molten, but sublimated and recondensed in form of microscopic drops of steel.

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Perhaps he was using chrome corundum powder as a filler.

          • Axil Axil

            Whatever the source of the chromium may be, the vaporization temperature is 2700C as required to produce Ruby.

            Do not breath the fumes. hexavalent chromium (Cr(VI) or Cr6+) may form an is very toxic and mutagenic when inhaled. Cr(VI) has not been established as a carcinogen when in solution, although it may cause allergic contact dermatitis (ACD). Cr+6 was the poison that was depicted in the Erin Brockovich film.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Agreed.

    • Axil Axil

      This approach is more than an idea, it is a tested prototype.

      R&D on the hot fusion reactor has verified that this concept can move heat up to 10 megawatt/M2 or equiqently 1000 watts/cm2 at the operating temperature of the Hot cat. These tests on this concept has verified a robust solution with no degragation seen after 500 heat up cycles.

      Conclusion from the test report…

      It is possible to successfully fabricate a robust,
      all-refractory helium-cooled heatsink using existing
      porous metal technology. This high temperature
      heatsink removed substantial amounts of power even
      at low mass flow rates by taking advantage of large
      delta-Ts in the coolant. The heatsink survived over
      500 thermal fatigue cycles at 3.5 MW/m2 with onlyminimal microcracking of the faceplate. Tungsten rod armor may be incorporated into the tungsten
      faceplate in advanced pfc designs without the
      problems of joining dissimilar materials.
      These heat exchangers exceeded design
      specifications and survived a maximum heat flux of
      almost 6 MW/m2 and a maximum surface
      temperature near 1000oC. However, the pressure drop
      across each module was relatively high,
      exceeding 55 kPa. There remain problems with
      controlling porosity and clogging by contaminants.
      The porosity difference between the two modules in
      these experiments was as high as 30%.
      No evidence of mass flow instabilities was
      observed for the two modules in parallel even for
      very high delta-T in the helium. Nearly the same
      thermal response was obtained on each module.
      However, for a worst case scenario of an unrestricted
      flow bypass, a 39% reduction in mass flow occurred
      in the module resulting in a 42% reduction in power
      absorbed by the helium.

      This level of thermal performance is more than
      adequate for first wall applications exposed to a 2
      MW/m2 heat flux. However, better performancecould be obtained if the porosity could be doubled.

      This would almost triple the mass flow and power
      handling capability. Such an innovation could open
      a design window into the divertor heat flux regime of
      20 to 30 MW/m2 and make high temperature,helium-cooled refractory heatsinks a viable
      alternative to liquid metal pfcs.

  • Ged

    An interesting aspect to note is that some research has suggested Tungsten can participate in LENR, even in place of nickel (not nearly as good, but has similar crystal lattice geometry) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CirilloDtransmutat.pdf , and was also used in the Mitsubishi transmutation experiments. Tungsten into platinum could have impacts on long time scales dependent on rate.

    • Bob Greenyer

      According to Piantelli, ALL transition metals can participate.

      Aluminium does not and Oxygen stops it. Alumina is therefore a good vessel.

      • Axil Axil

        If your belief that Alumina does not participate in the LENR reaction, why does the alumina (composed of aluminum and oxygen) produce ruby dust when the Hot cat melts down? It is my belief that any element or compound that produces nano particles will generate a LENR reaction. Even concrete will vaporize in a LENR meltdown and that compound contains oxygen.

        Piantelli’s reactor does not usually get hot enough for a dust based reaction to set into motion except in the rare case when his heactor melts down.

        From Ego out

        PROF. FRANCESCO PIANTELLIS WARNING

        Reading about Mats Lewan story about the scarry vision of a post-runaway reactor of Giuseppe Levi, showing that very high temperatures were attained inside, Prof. Francesco Piantelli has written me about an analogous case in his NiH line of research. He spoke about a photography made by Steve Krivit of one of Piantelii’s rods- 10 cm long, 5mm diameter having a portion of 3 mm approx. that shows as molten and in part evaporated; a sensor attache to it was completely destroyed and the ceramic on it fused. This runaway has happened in in 1994. Piantelli warns that high temperatures and pressures can intensify the parasitic secondary processes that lead the reactions out of control. Very good protection is necessary.

        • Bob Greenyer

          My point was more about avoiding structural materials that could participate in the primary reaction.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Iraj Parchamazad does LENR with palladium loaded zeolites
          (aluminosilicates). So, maybe the alumina could play a role in the reaction.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L-lKozWjSA#t=396

          • Axil Axil

            The theory explained in this experiment is very good but experimentally intuitive thereby lacking depth in terms of ultimate theoretical causation. LENR is topological in nature and based on EMF based plasmonic nano particle and nano cavity EMF interactions.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Yes, it may facilitate.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            „Deuterium gas diffuses through the reactor without pressure.“ (7 : 25)

            This is an extremely interesting aspect. Pressure is likely the most critical factor with regard to safety. Could that work as well with nickel and light hydrogen? Nickel-zeolite catalysts are used in the chemical industry, so perhaps an appropriate material is already available.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Yeah Andreas, Maybe bis(cyclooctadiene)nickel(0) could be mixed with various zeolites and then heat to release the nickel(0) onto (or into) the zeolite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis%28cyclooctadiene%29nickel%280%29

        • Bob Greenyer

          Ruby is RED because of Chromium impurities in corundum (alumina).

          Stoyan Sarg has predicted that Chromium would produce more excess but need a higher working temperature.

          It may be that in those reactors that produced “Ruby dust” Chromium was used at least whole or in Part. There is no claims as to what was in the reactors that failed in this way, so it is entirely possible that Chromium was there.

          • Axil Axil

            Chromium was an element that comprised an alloy component of the stainless steel in the outer tube of the blast shell which vaporized. Both the vaporized alumina and the vaporized stainless steel intermingled ensue and combined chemically in the plasma state. When the plasma cooled back into the solid state, Ruby was formed. The remaining stainless steel vapor became small spheres of solidified iron condensate.

            The reaction can get very hot during a meltdown. Consider tungsten!

          • Bob Greenyer

            That is a plausible, we simply do not know, it is all conjecture.

          • Axil Axil

            If we take the words of Rossi at face value, we must ask how his experimental observations could occur. We know about those experimental results because Rossi has performed a number of intentional meltdowns on Hot cat reactors with an alumina core and a stainless steel shell that he reports to us as follows:

            Andrea Rossi

            December 28th, 2013 at 8:32 PM

            James Bowery:

            Very sorry, I cannot answer to this question exhaustively, but I can say something. Obviously, the experiments are made with total respect of the safety of my team and myself. During the destructive tests we arrived to reach temperatures in the range of 2,000 Celsius degrees, when the “mouse” excited too much the E-Cat, and it is gone out of control, in the sense that we have not been able to stop the raise of the temperature ( we arrived on purpose to that level, because we wanted to study this kind of situation). A nuclear Physicist, analysing the registration of the data, has calculated that the increase of temperature (from 1,000 Celsius to 2,000 Celsius in about 10 seconds), considering the surface that has increased of such temperature, has implied a power of 1 MW, while the Mouse had a mean power of 1.3 kW. Look at the photo you have given the link of, and imagine that the cylinder was cherry red, then in 10 seconds all the cylinder became white-blue, starting from the white dot you see in the photo ( after 1 second) becoming totally white-blue in the following 9 seconds, and then an explosion and the ceramic inside ( which is a ceramic that melts at 2,000 Celsius) turned into a red, brilliant stone, like a ruby. When we opened the reactor, part of the AISI 310 ss steel was not molten, but sublimated and recondensed in form of microscopic drops of steel.

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Perhaps he was using chrome corundum powder as a filler.

          • Axil Axil

            Whatever the source of the chromium may be, the vaporization temperature is 2700C as required to produce Ruby.

            Do not breath the fumes. hexavalent chromium (Cr(VI) or Cr6+) may form an is very toxic and mutagenic when inhaled. Cr(VI) has not been established as a carcinogen when in solution, although it may cause allergic contact dermatitis (ACD). Cr+6 was the poison that was depicted in the Erin Brockovich film.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Agreed.

  • builditnow

    The heat pipe concept could be used in many ways. In a Rossi style alumina tube, a tungsten heat pipe could run down the center where it would be safe from oxidation and be used to accurately control the temperature and extract most of the heat. Control valves could be outside the reactor and made of other materials. The outside of the alumina tube could then be insulated. This would then allow the transfer of useful heat out of the reactor in a controlled manner. Since the reactor is exothermic, the COP could then be very high, just the energy to run the control system. Over the insulated alumina tube, cooled copper wires could provide the electromagnetic stimulation that may be needed, with little power used. Once out of the reactor the heat pipe could likely use other materials (steel perhaps) to pipe the heat to where it is used. A system to dump heat could be setup, using air or liquids to control runaway heat events (called heat excursions in fission reactors). A hot temperature storage could be used to warm the reactor up, or, control it’s output from idle to maximum. Warm up heat could be provided by natural gas or another fuel.
    With heat pipes, heat could, for instance, be transferred to a heat exchanger in a gas turbine.

    • Axil Axil

      This concept that you now define is a wise one. For simplicity and elegance, the heat pipe function that is totally integrated into the reactor is in my opinion the most cost effective. But your idea is more flexible and at a minimum required in this type of LENR Hot cat reactor. Rossi’s computer controlled reactor composed of many low powered units is a marginal concept being overly complicated, failure prone, hard to manufacture and test, and expensive. To greatly simplify things, a heat pipe is a must as a component of such a system. Much could be done with this type of system as you describe. For one thing, controls could all be analog and automatic, and a large lithium reservoir could store a great amount of heat. The heat pipe might transfer heat fast enough to eliminate hot spots.

      • builditnow

        Higher outputs, larger reactors, magnetic fields:

        Rossi’s current design does not have a way to rapidly quench a sudden burst of output power. On the plus side, Rossi’s system could be the cheapest to produce and be useful in many applications. Rossi has an eye to swamping the market with E-Cats too cheap to compete with.

        If the space between the outer wall the the inner heat pipe is kept small, perhaps significantly higher output for a give size and larger units are possible because of the strong heat sinking capability of the heat pipe. Also, Rossi has reported that there are magnetic fields coming out of the reactor (strong, whatever that means). If the reaction produces magnetic fields then it is also influenced by them. Rossi’s system appears to use the heating coils to also apply some magnetic field to the reactor, but, this is a “very” inefficient way to apply magnetic fields or pulses. If the reactor outside is insulated, a fine wire, transformer like winding could then go over the outside and generate strong magnetic fields with small currents and power. It’s conceivable that applying magnetic fields in a alternating pulsing fashion helps disperse hot spots in the reactor. A magnetic stirrer of the reaction sites.

        This heat pipe design could be more expensive, but, suitable for aircraft jet engines and jet engines in cars where greater output, better control is desired, and more compact, light weight, high power designs are required. I’m thinking that 2000 shaft hp for a car made of carbon fiber with ducted fans would be enough for it to take off vertically and fly several hundred mph. We could need about 7,500kW (7.5 megawatts) of heat for that in a small light weight package, so the design needs radical improvement.

  • builditnow

    The heat pipe concept could be used in many ways. In a Rossi style alumina tube, a tungsten heat pipe could run down the center where it would be safe from oxidation and be used to accurately control the temperature and extract most of the heat. Control valves could be outside the reactor and made of other materials. The outside of the alumina tube could then be insulated. This would then allow the transfer of useful heat out of the reactor in a controlled manner. Since the reactor is exothermic, the COP could then be very high, just the energy to run the control system. Over the insulated alumina tube, cooled copper wires could provide the electromagnetic stimulation that may be needed, with little power used. Once out of the reactor the heat pipe could likely use other materials (steel perhaps) to pipe the heat to where it is used. A system to dump heat could be setup, using air or liquids to control runaway heat events (called heat excursions in fission reactors). A hot temperature storage could be used to warm the reactor up, or, control it’s output from idle to maximum. Warm up heat could be provided by natural gas or another fuel.
    With heat pipes, heat could, for instance, be transferred to a heat exchanger in a gas turbine.

    • Axil Axil

      This concept that you now define is a wise one. For simplicity and elegance, the heat pipe function that is totally integrated into the reactor is in my opinion the most cost effective. But your idea is more flexible and at a minimum required in this type of LENR Hot cat reactor. Rossi’s computer controlled reactor composed of many low powered units is a marginal concept being overly complicated, failure prone, hard to manufacture and test, and expensive. To greatly simplify things, a heat pipe is a must as a component of such a system. Much could be done with this type of system as you describe. For one thing, controls could all be analog and automatic, and a large lithium reservoir could store a great amount of heat. The heat pipe might transfer heat fast enough to eliminate hot spots.

      • builditnow

        Higher outputs, larger reactors, magnetic fields:

        Rossi’s current design does not have a way to rapidly quench a sudden burst of output power. On the plus side, Rossi’s system could be the cheapest to produce and be useful in many applications. Rossi has an eye to swamping the market with E-Cats too cheap to compete with.

        If the space between the outer wall the the inner heat pipe is kept small, perhaps significantly higher output for a give size and larger units are possible because of the strong heat sinking capability of the heat pipe. Also, Rossi has reported that there are magnetic fields coming out of the reactor (strong, whatever that means). If the reaction produces magnetic fields then it is also influenced by them. Rossi’s system appears to use the heating coils to also apply some magnetic field to the reactor, but, this is a “very” inefficient way to apply magnetic fields or pulses. If the reactor outside is insulated, a fine wire, transformer like winding could then go over the outside and generate strong magnetic fields with small currents and power. It’s conceivable that applying magnetic fields in a alternating pulsing fashion helps disperse hot spots in the reactor. A magnetic stirrer of the reaction sites.

        This heat pipe design could be more expensive, but, suitable for aircraft jet engines and jet engines in cars where greater output, better control is desired, and more compact, light weight, high power designs are required. I’m thinking that 2000 shaft hp for a car made of carbon fiber with ducted fans would be enough for it to take off vertically and fly several hundred mph. We could need about 7,500kW (7.5 megawatts) of heat for that in a small light weight package, so the design needs radical improvement.

  • Robert Ellefson

    The mechanism of thermalization of the reaction energy must be clarified before we can know if any particular design direction makes sense or not. Personally, I suspect that we are seeing a form of polychromatic superradiance of soft xrays (<1KeV) that are resulting from coherent stimulated emissions in a system of dipole emitters at the distributed reactions sites, possibly the ~2 micron "knobs"/protrusions that are prominent in the Lugano ash photographs. If this is the case, then the thermalization is occuring partly within the nickel reactant matrix, but also to a large extent in the reactor chamber's walls, as the energy cascades through a series of stimulated emission and absorption events from one active site to another, eventually leading to the chamber walls. So, the introduction of non-participating tungsten (if it does not undergo a LENR reaction itself) may in fact worsen the thermal transfer characteristics of the reactor by creating extra thermalization targets that do not directly contribute to stimulating further emissions.
    Bottom line is that we need more experimental data on these Ni-H systems before we'll be able to predict what works and what doesn't.

    • Axil Axil

      There has been tons of experimentation done involving tungsten and transmutation has been seen there,

      Ged:

      An interesting aspect to note is that some research has suggested Tungsten can participate in LENR, even in place of nickel (not nearly as good, but has similar crystal lattice geometry) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/C… , and was also used in the Mitsubishi transmutation experiments. Tungsten into platinum could have impacts on long time scales dependent on rate.

      However, I believe that the holes in the tungsten electrodes were caused by cavitation.

      • Robert Ellefson

        I don’t dispute that tungsten is a potential participant in these reactions, I’m just asserting that the conjectured significance of thermal conduction enhancement is easily countered by conjectured non-participation of tungsten in the high-gain reactions we have observed so far, which have been nickel, hydrogen and lithium, if not simply Ni-Li. I would not be surprised to learn that an effective system could also involve reactive tungsten such as you describe, but I suspect that the thermal conduction enhancements that a foam of it provides will not be as helpful as engineering the radiative transfer mechanisms of the system for optimal power production. I suspect that radiative heat transfer will be the dominant mechanism by far, at least in the eventual system designs, and this is what must be optimized primarily. But again, this is conjecture meeting conjecture, and certainly I hope that we learn more facts to help flesh out these details soon!

  • Robert Ellefson

    The mechanism of thermalization of the reaction energy must be clarified before we can know if any particular design direction makes sense or not. Personally, I suspect that we are seeing a form of polychromatic superradiance of soft xrays (<1KeV) that are resulting from coherent stimulated emissions in a system of dipole emitters at the distributed reactions sites, possibly the ~2 micron "knobs"/protrusions that are prominent in the Lugano ash photographs. If this is the case, then the thermalization is occuring partly within the nickel reactant matrix, but also to a large extent in the reactor chamber's walls, as the energy cascades through a series of stimulated emission and absorption events from one active site to another, eventually leading to the chamber walls. So, the introduction of non-participating tungsten (if it does not undergo a LENR reaction itself) may in fact worsen the thermal transfer characteristics of the reactor by creating extra thermalization targets that do not directly contribute to stimulating further emissions.
    Bottom line is that we need more experimental data on these Ni-H systems before we'll be able to predict what works and what doesn't.

    • Axil Axil

      There has been tons of experimentation done involving tungsten and transmutation has been seen there,

      Ged:

      An interesting aspect to note is that some research has suggested Tungsten can participate in LENR, even in place of nickel (not nearly as good, but has similar crystal lattice geometry) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/C… , and was also used in the Mitsubishi transmutation experiments. Tungsten into platinum could have impacts on long time scales dependent on rate.

      However, I believe that the holes in the tungsten electrodes (figs. 8 and 9) were caused by cavitation.

      “the ~2 micron “knobs”/protrusions that are prominent in the Lugano ash photographs” are called phase masks. They produce polariton vortexes.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-shift_mask

      The use of alumina shows that reactor wall reflection is not an important factor in the reaction.

      • Robert Ellefson

        I don’t dispute that tungsten is a potential participant in these reactions, I’m just asserting that the conjectured significance of thermal conduction enhancement is easily countered by conjectured non-participation of tungsten in the high-gain reactions we have observed so far, which have been nickel, hydrogen and lithium, if not simply Ni-Li. I would not be surprised to learn that an effective system could also involve reactive tungsten such as you describe, but I suspect that the thermal conduction enhancements that a foam of it provides will not be as helpful as engineering the radiative transfer mechanisms of the system for optimal power production. I suspect that radiative heat transfer will be the dominant mechanism by far, at least in the eventual system designs, and this is what must be optimized primarily. But again, this is conjecture meeting conjecture, and certainly I hope that we learn more facts to help flesh out these details soon!

  • Axil Axil

    This approach is more than an idea, it is a tested prototype.

    R&D on the hot fusion reactor has verified that this concept can move heat up to 10 megawatt/M2 or equiqently 1000 watts/cm2 at the operating temperature of the Hot cat. These tests on this concept has verified a robust solution with no degragation seen after 500 heat up cycles.

    Conclusion from the test report…

    It is possible to successfully fabricate a robust,
    all-refractory helium-cooled heatsink using existing
    porous metal technology. This high temperature
    heatsink removed substantial amounts of power even
    at low mass flow rates by taking advantage of large
    delta-Ts in the coolant. The heatsink survived over
    500 thermal fatigue cycles at 3.5 MW/m2 with onlyminimal microcracking of the faceplate. Tungsten rod armor may be incorporated into the tungsten
    faceplate in advanced pfc designs without the
    problems of joining dissimilar materials.
    These heat exchangers exceeded design
    specifications and survived a maximum heat flux of
    almost 6 MW/m2 and a maximum surface
    temperature near 1000oC. However, the pressure drop
    across each module was relatively high,
    exceeding 55 kPa. There remain problems with
    controlling porosity and clogging by contaminants.
    The porosity difference between the two modules in
    these experiments was as high as 30%.
    No evidence of mass flow instabilities was
    observed for the two modules in parallel even for
    very high delta-T in the helium. Nearly the same
    thermal response was obtained on each module.
    However, for a worst case scenario of an unrestricted
    flow bypass, a 39% reduction in mass flow occurred
    in the module resulting in a 42% reduction in power
    absorbed by the helium.

    This level of thermal performance is more than
    adequate for first wall applications exposed to a 2
    MW/m2 heat flux. However, better performancecould be obtained if the porosity could be doubled.

    This would almost triple the mass flow and power
    handling capability. Such an innovation could open
    a design window into the divertor heat flux regime of
    20 to 30 MW/m2 and make high temperature,helium-cooled refractory heatsinks a viable
    alternative to liquid metal pfcs.

  • builditnow

    Steve W: Good design idea, control heat excursions, control running temperature as a way to control power output, extract heat to apply it usefully, COP likely very high. See above for platinum heat pipe design.

    With regards to the Hot-Cat temperature, Jet turbines often operate at 1200C. Some modern high tech turbines using natural gas can approach 2000C, so, there is use for this high temperature. As an aside, reports of Cold Fusion experiments melting through lab tables and into concrete floors indicate that perhaps there is a plasma state warm fusion that also works. I think SRI had a meltdown that went through the concrete foundation of the basement to some considerable depth, if I recall correctly. Experimenter don’t like to mention these meltdowns as the sound to fantastic. That said, many applications don’t need this exotic temperature and much lower temperatures will do. But, I’d love to convert a small jet engine to run on hot cats, totally self contained with generator attached. Or, for fun, a model aircraft jet engine, then fly it in public for large audiences for a couple of weeks. The news media would be choking.

  • Axil Axil

    A good illustration of the efficiency of heat pipes:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vk5B6Gga10

    • Bob Greenyer

      Good video

  • Axil Axil

    Using heat as a pump to stimulate the reaction may not be apocopate in LENR reactor designs that feature heat pipe thermal transport for all the reasons that you have listed.. A more elegant approach might be the use of an electric arc to stimulate the reaction.