Discussion of Airbus LENR Patent on LinkedIn

There is some interesting discussion of the recently published Airbus patent in the Cold Fusion E-Cat group on LinkedIn

See the thread here

A few interesting points come up in the comments. For example, Rob Woudenberg writes:

I’ve read this patent application in more details as well meanwhile. They claim some interesting (new) methodologies. One is the preparation of nickel powder using Surface Enhanced Raman Scattering (SERS), the other is the use of electromagnetic pulsation of which not much details are revealed. They refer to the patent application of Pekka Soininen (Etiam Oy), which describes electromagnetic field generation by nano or micrometer scale local discharge of pyro and/or piezo electric material

Heinz G. Sonnenberg comments:

The Airbus patent specifies the minimum temperature which is absolutely required to prevent hazardous radiation. To my understanding, such a strong statement in a patent can only be made based on extensive measurements. These measurements imply that Airbus must have such devices in their hands.

If Airbus is really involved in serious LENR R&D it would be a significant development, and a signal that behind the scenes large companies are paying close attention to the field and preparing for its emergence. At this point, however, we can’t be sure of much that is going on unless the company makes public comment on the matter. We know that Airbus representatives will be at the April 10 LENR-Cities meeting in Milan, and perhaps we will hear more from them there.

Here’s a link to the Airbus patent (machine translated) https://www.scribd.com/doc/259591568/Airbus-LENR-Patent-Google-Translation By the way, I just noticed that since I uploaded this document last Monday (6 days ago) it has received over 20,000 views.


  • Bob Greenyer

    The use of SERS is wonderful if true, because Martin Fleischmann was instrumental in its discovery!

    • Ged

      That would be pretty ironic in some ways.

      Don’t know where else to post this, but read the glowstick updates on the MFMP Facebook and am quite impressed. Having an internal control -greatly- increases experimental power. This is really a huge leap forward.

      But even more, this design can be used to very effectively screen different fuel mixtures against each other to determine relative effectiveness. In fact, the segmented design seems entirely expandable (though I’m not sure what point heat transfer issues will become the limiter) for testing of more than two mixtures of fuel. This really is brilliant–the MFMP or others using the *GlowStick* reactor system could relatively quickly find optimized fuels for LENR, which could lead to outstanding effects. Key would be to determine a solid SOP for such comparisons (length of test to make sure no chemical reactions are responsible, speed of power ramp ups, domain of power and temperature, etc).

      Getting kinda ahead of myself, as we still have to show the reactor and LENR in itself works, but the possibilities this new design opens are quite exciting. Amazing work you guys! And definitely a huge amount of credit to the Vortex mailing list individual who first put forward this method (at least I’ve heard that is the origin).

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Raman spectra of pyridine adsorbed at a silver electrode

      M. Fleischmann

    • Axil Axil
      • Mike Ivanov

        All versions of socialism (which have been implemented) are even worse…

  • Mr. Moho

    The correlation with temperature of hazardous radiations (gamma emissions?) seems to be consistent with claims and observations by others of a similar effect at reactor startup.

    • BroKeeper

      Since gamma emissions are absorbed by the reactor container, it must be referring to other partical emissions like that of neutrons or are you speaking of ultra high energetic gamma rays?

      • Mr. Moho

        Absorbing gamma emissions is not as easy as you think, especially if standard nuclear fusion reactions were occurring at the indicated energy levels.

        Besides stating that it’s the exact proof that nothing nuclear is occurring at all, one could suspend disbelief for a while and speculate that whatever process is preventing gamma emissions from coming out at operating temperature, might be not occurring properly at lower ones.

        • Zack Iszard

          As far as I feebly understand it, Widom-Larsen Theory suggests that lattice diffusion of emitted gamma rays (and also likely the momentum of fast particles) is accomplished through interactions with the surface plasmon polaritons (SPPs) that Axil Axil is so fond of (and myself). The prevalence, uniformity, and intensity of SPPs must be related to temperature, as phonons are quanta of heat energy.

          If SPPs form a B-E condensate, this requires that many, many SPPs, at least locally, are degenerate in energy. If any of the nuclear transitions that seem to take place in these systems are degenerate with local SPPs, or at least resonant with many in the local environment, then gamma emission might manifest as simultaneous incremental excitation of a group of SPPs, thus making up for the HUGE difference in energy between IR-level SPPs and gamma/x-ray-level nuclear emissions (many SPPs = one gamma photon).

          If the above mechanism is sufficient to explain the lack of gamma emission in an LENR reactor, then there ought to be a temperature range toward the low end where reactions take place at some slow rate, but local regions of SPP B-E condensates are not expansive and uniform enough to diffuse this emission. According to Widom-Larsen theory (again, as far as I feebly understand it), SPP B-E condensates are also crucial for the occurrence of the transmutations.

          The suggestion of two different temperature thresholds implies that two separate – though very likely related – mechanisms are catalyzing nuclear transmutation and diffusing high-intensity radiation, respectively. This implies that in this system, it is easier to transmute fuel components than absorb emitted nuclear photons. This is easily tested by radiation measurements taken over the temperature range of excess heat.

          • Mr. Moho

            Thanks for your detailed explanation.

          • Axil Axil

            I believe as follows:

            The magnetic fields produced by SPP solitons catalyze nuclear reactions in matter that this field falls upon. The soliton is PUMPED by heat photons.

            The soliton produces two kinds of magnetic photons: real and virtual. The power of the anapole magnetic field is proportional to the pumping of the heat and the nuclear power feeding energy into the SPPs.

            At a very low power level, more real magnetic photons are produced by the soliton than virtual photons. It is the virtual magnetic photons that produce the EMF pathway that allows the power produce by the nuclear reactions in matter to be transmitted back to the soliton on the anapole magnetic beam. When there are little or no virtual magnetic photons produced in a very weak SPP soliton, the energy produced by the nuclear reaction is lost to the far field as gamma radiation.

            As the strength of the soliton increases, more virtual photons are produced and the production rate of virtual photons becomes high enough to generate a transmission path between the nuclear reaction and the soliton.

            The temperature of the reactor must be beyond the virtual particle production threshold before the reaction is started. the reaction begins when nanoparticles are produce that carry the LENR reaction. In the case of DGT technology, that rydberg matter production starts with the beginning of pulsed spark generation.

            In the Rossi reaction, this timing between real and virtual particle production is determined by the type of secret sauce used. The temperature level that generates nanoparticles must be greater than the temperature needed to produce virtual magnetic photons in the soliton.

    • relation between heat and radiation, is important, for safety, and for theory

  • Andreas Moraitis

    No ideological comments so far, from either side. That’s the kind of discussion I like.

    • GreenWin

      Andreas, keep in mind this board is dedicated to “Following the LENR Revolution.” By default there will be some ideology. That’s not bad.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Ideologies may be helpful for some time if people want to achieve something. Unfortunately, they tend to become autonomous and self-normalizing, so that they eventually get detrimental. More often than not this development is recognized much too late.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    I agree that the style is somewhat clumsy, but I see no reason to assume that the text has not been written by a native speaker. To me, it looks rather like technician slang with some individual characteristics. Maybe the author writes usually documents for internal use, but hasn’t much experience with publications.

  • I gathered many of the paragraphs you consider .


    note that this is in the description, meaning it may not be innovative, patented. most of what they say is theory, experimental results, prior arts and patentes.

    Rob consider this patent is not very innovative, and in a way I agree.
    the main idea is mostly integrating the reactor with the TEG to integrate hardware enforced safety, sensor and power. rest of the patent is good engineering.

    LENr is not patented here, just used.

  • Axil Axil

    Airbus must have taken much of the technical details from the DGT documentation that they had as a customer of DGT. That documentation was most probably written in English. The Airbus tech does not mention the secret sauce additive that DGT used. Yes, like Rossi, DGT also used lithium aluminum hydride as a source of hydrogen.

    • Mr. Moho

      Interesting, where did you read that DGT used LiAlH4 as a source of hydrogen?

      • yeas, I thought they were using hydrogen bottle in their R5

        Airbus design is very much improved from R5 :
        – cooling pipes used as electrodes
        – TEG integrated
        – nanostructured material (based on others patents).

        but no hydride as hydrogen source.

        • Mr. Moho

          It’s hard to picture them going through the hassle of pretending to be using a hydrogen bottle when they used LiAlH4 instead, unless it was something they *really* didn’t want others to know. Or maybe not that hard, in retrospect.

      • Axil Axil

        I had many confidential conversations with DGT about theory and reactor operations. Since DGT has been reorganized, the confidence that I maintained is not applicable anymore. This might be associated with the R6 reactor.

        • Mr. Moho

          It’s interesting that they used LiAlH4 (or at least, that they claimed so), because it means that Rossi probably used it too at that time. I was already suspecting this for different reasons.

          Looking forward to knowing more.

  • Ophelia Rump

    The patent seems to be indicating the existence of a further branch research MENR. Medium Energy Nuclear Reactions. If the temperature is brought high enough to produce more energetic particles this sounds like an entirely new class of power source. A dangerous device to experiment with, I wonder what benefits could be derived from a MENR, or even perhaps even a HENR.

    • Mike Ivanov

      Nickel and Iron are cheap enough back to mother Earth. There is simply no point to dig them in space.

      • Omega Z

        Maybe they would want to use them on the Moon, Mars or elsewhere. That would be far cheaper then hauling stuff up from Earth.

        But General Argos, I thought we were going to use this to build the Death Star.
        Shushh. Never speak of the Death Star where humans may hear. They are skittish creatures & panic easily. They may scatter around the Galaxy like cockroaches. Extermination is much easier if we keep them all on 1 planet.