Transcript of Tom Darden’s Speech on LENR at ICCF19: ‘We’ve Reached a Tipping point’ [Updated transcription with New Material]

UPDATE: Many thanks to the Martin Fleischmann Memorial project for releasing this new video recording of Tom Darden’s talk yesterday. It has been very helpful in cleaning up the transcript I made yesterday. Plus there was a whole section that I missed from the videos I was using — see the second to the last paragraph below which adds some siginificant new information. I would encourage people to re-read this, to get a more precise understanding of what Tom Darden’s message. One important clarification, I think, is when he talks about large companies. This was not so clear to me yesterday.

What he said was: “We engage with the large companies and we all need them to achieve ubiquity for your ideas. We want to work in a collaborative way with many more large companies, and we want to help others do that.” To me that indicates that there are deals and agreements being made between IH and large companies.

Very many thanks to Cold Fusion Dog Bob, for so quickly uploading videos of Tom Darden’s speech today at ICCF19 in Padua Italy. (See the videos on the ICCF live thread).This is the first time that we have seen and heard the founder of Industrial Heat, who acquired rights to Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat technology. In this talk he spoke about his motivation, history and his hopes and goals for LENR technology in general. I have done a quick transcription of the videos and decided to put the transcript in a separate post here. The room he was speaking in had a lot of echo, so some things were somewhat indistinct, but I think I got most of what he said.

Tom Darden Speaking at ICCF19 — Courtesy MFMP

What an honor it is to be here today to address those of you who have done so much to change the way we address our energy needs and our environmental needs, and to change science. I’m the founder of Cherokee, and I’ve been asked to tell you who we are and why we created Industrial Heat as a funding source for LENR inventors. Unike many of you, I’m not a scientist, I’m an entrepreneur, but we share the common bond of innovation. As Peter Drucker wrote,. Entrepreneurship sees the major task in society as doing something different, rather than doing something better than what is already being done. Doing better than what is already being done is like making a coal power plant a little bit more efficient — you are working to make them unneccessary. Thank God there are some, like many of you, who have the courage to disrupt. In 1921, experts determined that the limits of flight had been reached already. In 1932 it was determined that nuclear fission was unlikely ever to be feasible. And in the 1950’s, when I was born, it was widely believed that pollution was a necessary part of economic development. Paradigm shifts do not come easily, especially in science. As Thomas Kuhn wrote in The Nature of Scientific Revolutions, usually they are born out of the crises of our time. If you are on the leading edge of a paradigm shift, you will be attacked by your peers, and you will be attacked by the institutions of the status quo. We feel called to upset two core business paradigms. First, the traditional ethos of environmentalism is that we should strive to be ‘less bad.’ But as America’s leading environmental philosopher William McDonough points out in his book Cradle to Cradle, being ‘less bad’ is not being good, it’s still being bad, just a little bit less so. If you are driving a car towards a cliff, it doesn’t help you to slow down — you need to turn around and go in a different direction.

We need solutions that don’t create pollution in the first place, not marginal solutions that only reduce pollution. Second, let’s challenge the assumption of scarcity. We actually live in a world of abundance, at least with respect to energy. Sadly, due to society’s ineffectiveness to date, the world struggles with energy scarcity, at least in some regions. Why do we burn from petroleum or coal, which unlocks only a tiny fraction of the true energy inside? when we do this we release almost all the mass of coal into the air as stack emissions. We scatter this mass around the planet. Carbon and heavy metals can be highly beneficial — they’re not necessarily pollutants — but they are if they’re in the wrong place. C02 in the air is a pollutant; carbon in a tree is not. Heavy metals can be highly beneficial unless they’re in the wrong place like farmlands in China, or in our oceans.

We need an entirely new paradigm. This hopeful vision was the genesis of our work at Industrial Heat. When I entered school, the United States was in the midst of an environmental crisis. Most people have forgotten about this, or perhaps never even new of it, but when I was young, periodically industrial rivers in our cities would burst into flame due to the pollution in them, and sometimes in our worst polluted cities, people drove with their headlights on during the day. Our air pollution was as bad as air pollution in China in some cities. This was America when I began to think of my place in the world. I was worried when I saw that photo, the first photo of our living planet from space. Many of you will remember that — we had never seen the earth, which is ironic because we live on it. We could see that it was a living planet. I felt compelled to do something about it. Later at university I wrote my master’s thesis on acid rain, air pollution from coal plants. My first job was at the Korean Institute of Science and Technology in Seoul, where I worked on pollution, converting coal which was used for home heating and for cooking. I saw pollution throughout East Asia. I returned, and went to Yale, to become an environmental lawyer, but in the US, practicing law, some people think it’s somewhat worrying, and I fell in that category, and thankfully I got a job at Bain and Co. working in steel plants, on energy efficiency. In 1984 I converted brick plants from burning fossil fuels into burning biogas which was being dumped into landfills where it turned into methane gas . . .

We became mostly carbon neutral, except for our electricity use, and I obsessed on finding ways that we could make carbon free electricity. I was never successful. In 1985, I discovered soil pollution at on of our brick plant sites, from decades of petroleum use. I found some professors at Virginia Tech University, which is not far away, professors who dealt with soil bacteria, so we began to grow bacteria which would consume pollution in the ground. I funded their business via systems technology and we created Cherokee Environmental to clean up contaminated soil all over the east coast and over the years we’ve cleaned up 15 million tons of dirt. That would be enough, that if you stacked it all up under a golf course, it would raise the level of that golf course about 400 feet or 130 meters. We bagan to buy contaminated property to clean up. We raised over $2 billion for this, buying and remediating land. We’ve owned 550 properties in the US, Canada and Europe, including a refinery site not too far from here (Trieste).

Some people think Cherokee is a real estate company because it owns a lot of property, it does own a lot of property, but our property work is driven by our pollution focus. I saw that we could affect pollution by working with smart scientists at Virginia Tech. We don’t internally have the capacity for scientific innovation — we’re business people, not scientists — but we realized we could find scientists who had ideas. So we branched out. We kept doing this with other professors at other universities. Between 1985 and the present we’ve started or invested in over 100 venture or startup companies. These addressed water or air pollution, or energy grid management; almost none of these were our own ideas, these were others’ ideas. My primary goal is to reduce pollution so for years we’ve been going abroad to transfer technology because that’s where most of the pollution is. I go to China regularly to advise officials and business leaders on methods and processes for addressing pollution. They’ve declared 19 percent of their land too contaminated for agricultural use. This is mostly due to air pollution — air pollution dropping contaminants on the land. Obviously this is a huge social issue. I began to do this in the former Soviet Union in the 1990s, and we’ve also explored similar paths in the Middle East, India, and Indonesia, focusing on areas of most population. In order to address the worlds’s environmental problems, the solutions must be ubiquitious — they cannot exist only in Europe or the United States.

In the early part of this decade Cherokee had entered a relatively stable part of its history. The next generation of leaders was being prepared to carry our values and processes forward, and existing projects were operating smoothly. My children were in their 20s and 30s and I was spending time with them and with my wife for the first time in nearly 35 years. I had rebuilt my experimental airplane, and I was installing a parachute in it, looking forward to using it more (the airplane).

One day I received a random call about cold fusion. I didn’t give it much credence because I remembered in detail the disclosure about Fleischmann and Pons years before, and I believed the subject was dead. Then thirty days later I received another unrelated inquiry from a different group, so we began to do some research, and then thirty days later, I received a call from another group. We had invested in 100 startup companies and I had never gotten an inquiry about fusion or about LENR: three within 30 day intervals. We funded two of these groups, and then later, as many of you know, we licensed Andrea Rossi’s technology. Since then we’ve made grants to university groups exploring research in this space, and we continue to fund additional teams. We envision an ecosystem of collaboration with great scientists who work together to develop the many systems and technologies society will need to shift away from polluting fossil fuels. Our goal is to bring non-polluting energy to those who need it most, especially in the developing world. We also don’t believe that there is one solution, we believe there are many solutions to these problems. To implement this vision, we determined that a business-based approach would be the most effective strategy; we looked at many others.

I know that some of you have felt that business are, and have been adversarial to your work. I understand that. But recall that commerce has long proven to be primary agent of change in every technical endeavor. We engage with the large companies and we all need them to achieve ubiquity for your ideas. We want to work in a collaborative way with many more large companies, and we want to help others do that. We started Industrial Heat because we believed that LENR technology was worth pursuing, even if we were unsuccessful. We were willing to be wrong, we were willing to invest time and resources to see if this might be an area of useful research in our quest to eliminate pollution. At the time we were not especially optimistic, but the global benefits were compelling.

We’ve had some success, and we’re expanding our work. We’re collaborating with and investing alongside fellow researchers and developers. Scientists compete to be the first, and they count on open sharing of what has been discovered to advance the process. They want to be able to be able to safely share their work in an environment where why they do what they do, truly matters, and where it aligns with what they value. They want to know that their work will be funded and their ideas will be merit tested, and advanced as merited, and they will be rewarded fairly. We’re privileged to be creating that kind of environment at Industrial Heat. We believe we may be at last on the verge of a new paradigm shift — one that will create new opportunity for innovation and entrepreneurship to advance the cause of abundance in the face of scarcity, and the continuing calls to simply be less bad.

When I look around this room, I’m filled with two strong sentiments: one of them warm and positive, the other is cold and sad. You’ve given your lives to your research; notwithstanding great challenges you’ve made a great difference to the world. Thank you for your years of hard work and progress. Every day I think of you and I am inspired. At the same time, I would like to say how truly sorry I am that society has attacked you for the last three decades. The treatment of Fleischmann and Pons, and the treatment of any of you by mainstream institutions and the media will go down in history as one more example of scientific infanticide, where entrenched interests kill off their divergent progeny. . . . this seems to be a dark component of human nature, and I note the irony of it — we are in Padova, Galileo’s city. But notwithstanding this longsuffering, you remain faithful to your work. Thank you for your intense focus and contributions in the face of challenges. In the face of challenges we must carry on with good faith, good will, good intentions and honesty, driven by the better angels of our nature, not impaired or constrained by the behavior of others. We also need not be constrained by our own minds; ironically the expert who proclaimed that flight had achieved its limits in 1921 was Orville Wright, the inventor of the airpline and the expert who declared that fission was not likely, that of course was Einstein. We must be ever vigilant to keep our own minds open always. Your time is come: the frenzy of fear gripping China and India reporting air pollution and water pollution creating an enormous demand for new ideas, less constrained by the past. Second, the increasing reports of success by many of you continue to offset the presumptions of skeptics. But it does not benefit any of us nor does it benefit society, if we achieve success but lose our battles. Let’s encourage one another to put the needs of society and the needs of other first as we contemplate how to achieve victory.

You have the ability to give the world a healing gift. Many also will have the opportunity to benefit from that. I’m a businessman and I believe business is usually the most effective means of achieving social or environment reform. As well as for implementing technologies — business is usually the most effective means of achieving social or environmental reform — I believe that. But we must always think first about the needs of others, about the needs of society, the needs of our planet. I do not want success if it comes at someone else’s detriment. My goal is to give your science away, to get out broadly and equitably to the world, to see you receive honor and rewards for your efforts.

Indeed provocative as it may sound, we’ve reached a tipping point. The potential of your work is so great. The signs of progress are now so significant. This is our simple manifesto: to pass on a world that is better than the one we received. Abundant non-polluting energy, widely available can make the greatest contribution to this goal. That’s a manifesto pledge for us to keep. It’s a promise to you, to those who went before you, to our children, and their children’s children. Thank you.

  • Hank Mills

    We need to replicate.

    No matter how good the reports about the megawatt plant are from Rossi, we need to replicate.

    No matter how interesting the next theory paper from Rossi-Cook may be, we need to replicate.

    No matter who from Cherokee goes to conventions or conferences, we need to replicate.

    This speech told me something very clearly: we are alone. It is 100% up to us to use the Ni-LiAlH4 recipe to prove to the world cold fusion is real and push it into acceptance by the mainstream media and scientific community.

    For now, Cherokee won’t help.

    • Freethinker

      You are right, we need to replicate. We, I surmise, meaning people who will divulge their findings openly.

      But I find your statement a bit negative – unduly – and wrong.

      MSM and dito science community will not be convinced by the little guy replicating in his garage or basement lab.

      They will be convinced by market, by investors funneling ever more large chunks of money, by academic exposure like the ICCF, SKINR etc and by replications made by iconic labs and scientists. Take your pick with regard to required order of events on the time line.

      I do not know what you expected – possibly a disclosure of success – but Tom Darden’s presentation is not a negative, in no way.

      Was it all we wished for? No.But it was still monumental that Cherokee and IH were there and the pledge Darden made and the general “eulogy” of the LENR field was very good.

      My 25 cent worth…

      • ecatworld

        For those hoping for a technology update, it may have been a disappointment, but I think Tom Darden revealed a great deal today.

        He seems to clearly understands the significance of the technology they have, and seems committed to be a good steward of it and use it for positive purposes.

        I think they must feel very positive about the E-Cat’s performance for him to have made this speech today. He’s not a bombastic speaker, but there was a powerful message there, I thought.

        • Sanjeev

          I agree. His speech at ICCF is a reflection of his confidence in LENR. He, as usual kept silence on their progress and plans, may be its the policy of IH.
          Thanks for the clear transcription. It was fast !

          • “C02 in the air is a pollutant; carbon in a tree is not.”

            Of course this is utter nonsense. Without CO2 in the air, plants would have nothing to eat and we would all die, …every last one of us, along with our dogs, cats, and horses. Our own bodies are made largely of water and CO2, and that is what our food is made of. See what Patrick Moore has to say on the matter of CO2 in the atmosphere.


          • I think what he’s hinting about when speaking of mass in the wrong place is the same as I tried to address here:


          • “apart from wood, peat and energy crops they’re not CO2 neutral.”

            Peat and “energy crops” (biofuels) are not carbon neutral. Biofuels increase greenhouse gas release more than using ordinary gasoline. Human beings are not carbon neutral creatures. If we want a carbon neutral world, we will have to kill off 90% or more of the human population. Farming contributes as much or more greenhouse gases to the atmosphere as transportation. We need LENR to reduce the cost of energy and food and we should reduce greenhouse gas release as a precaution for effects that might occur in the distant future. To date, there is no evidence to suggest that CO2 is a powerful greenhouse gas, only a very weak greenhouse gas, and not evil or a pollution. We are part of the carbon cycle. We need to change our threat assessment and lower the level of hysteria. Hysteria and science and politics don’t mix together in any constructive way.

        • Ivan Idso

          This speech echoes Martin Luther King’s “I have a dream” to me. I think that in the future, this will be quoted as an iconic speech. Terms of tipping points and paradigm shifts from someone with inside knowledge, means more to me than COPs and SSM.
          Remember this day : )

          • uDevil

            Darden’s speech is inspiring. But it doesn’t reach the heights of King. He doesn’t claim he’s been to the mountain top.

      • Mats002

        The the little guy replicating in his garage or basement lab could be the perfect story for MSM, they love those underdog stories, the drama we are witnessing will make a lot of money for MSM when they finally wakes up. My cents for the day (you can have them as Öre if you want :-).

        • Omega Z

          I think Darden gave an excellent presentation. And to me, His presence confirms his confidence in LENR.

          Aside from that, It also confirms what I have read that they have been involved & contributing to LENR research other then Rossi. Tho I suspect Industrial Heat was primarily or specifically setup to buy Rossi’s IP in entirety. I’m not aware of any other such arrangements.

          I want to think that his confidence in a tipping point & a paradigm shift is due in large part to the present Rossi pilot plant. That it is performing much as Rossi has implied. Positive or negative as it may be. 🙂

          Only those who were hoping for some grand announcement of sorts should/would be disappointed, but I am not. This ICCF conference is neither the time or place for such an announcement. That time & place will come only if/when Rossi’s pilot plant is confirmed as a positive outcome.

          Another advantage of Darden being at this ICCF conference is it will allow him to get a feel as to how close others are to having a product ready to move towards market. And possibly, some thoughts on direct conversion of this technology to electricity.

          Yes, I’m aware almost everything may be found on the internet, but go forth through 40 million hits. And almost everything is far from everything. Those at this conference may be aware of things that are not on the internet.

          • US_Citizen71

            I agree the ICCF is not the place to make an announcement of the magnitude we all are hoping for. Outside of those who are already following LENR next to no one has heard of the ICCF. No major media entities are there. When Darden and Industrial Heat decide it is time for the big reveal I expect it will start with a press release announcing an upcoming press conference where Darden will announce a new paradigm shifting energy source. They will want as much media attention as possible. The location of the news conference will likely be at or very near the customer’s plant, with a walk through being provided to the media members present who have the largest audiences.

        • Freethinker

          🙂 what ever currency we use:

          The underdog angle would be perfect for MSM but only when they have decide to report on LENR. The latter requires more than a lone tinkerer in the basement, while the same guy obviously is mandatory for the underdog angle.

    • Mats002

      Darden said “We also don’t believe there is one solution, we believe there are many solutions to these problems.” By that logic, Cherokee is not the only solution to feed this technology to the world.
      We need to replicate. And I hope Mr Darden agree to that, it sounds so from what he says.

    • Omega Z

      With respect Hank
      I believe that-
      “acceptance by the mainstream media and scientific community.”
      In the terms you’re thinking will only come when working products are in the market.

      At that point, Denial will only make them look like the fools they are & have been. Note: They will proclaim they were always on board. Others are to blame. It is always someone else’s fault.

      I Did not Stab that man. It is all his fault.
      He intentionally ran into my knife.
      27 Times?

    • Alberonn

      We WILL replicate, even better : we DO replicate :
      I agree with your interpretation of Darden’s speech, but we’re not alone. There are many competent garage-science- and low-profile-lab-replicators with us and don’t forget MFMP : they together will open up this technology for the world. Applications will probably hit the market before IH/Rossi have finished their elaborate protocol…

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Hank Mills, I agree, since Mr Darden does not care if he makes money or not, there must be other reasons he is not releasing details about Rossi reactor. So replication will not be helped from this source, so you are right.

  • GreenWin

    Thank you Mr. Darden and Cherokee! Mr. Darden confirms Industrial Heat acquired “certain rights” to Rossi’s E-Cat with the intent to help solve pollution issues. Those certain rights do not necessarily include trade secret or proprietary process. However, it is wonderful to hear plans to expand the entire program through further investment in the (LENR) space. Let’s keep in mind the 2B people in need of clean, safe water. Desalination is not a pollution issue – it is a solution for many of those in need. Congratulations to IH, Rossi and all attending ICCF-19!

  • That *was* the context. People should not make foolish statements and then expect to be taken seriously. This is a serious issue. We must get our facts right if we are to survive.

  • Hank Mills

    I can only compare Darden’s speech to a SETI radio astronomer contacting an extraterrestrial civilization, convincing them to send him plans for a reciever to pickup their faster than light sub-space broadcasts, watching their version of the Discovery Channel for months (gaining vast knowledge of the universe), and then going to an astronomy conference to praise all the efforts that came before – and then announcing only the original signal. Cherokee literally holds something just as significant in their hands. The E-Cat is a marvel that could become THE source of cheap, clean, dense, portable, and unlimited energy for the next hundred years! They need to boldly proclaim the significance of what they have!

    • John

      Hank, if the big one, the one all people was waiting for, did say nothing despite conjectures… And the ones that could say something like Ugo Abundo was simply erased from the list I think the ICCF-19 is already a failure. Frank, please organize the LENR/ECAT World Conference, it’s better to give voice to all people who presents a reasonable paper/replication than wait for the big owner of thousands of Real State to come to a convention to do Marketing and self promotion like he was born to save the world, but has no intention to do it in the right time… The AR Website alone with only one page says much more than Darden’s speech today. I think it’s time to accelerate the replications like you said, even a simple device can open the doors to force Darden’s to release the technology as soon before their 10 years window, or, we can even go faster than them working as an international team, sharing ideas and results… I just see the path we are following getting organized and we will reach a goal even before them.

  • Observer

    Is it your intention that the poor should be lifted up or that the well to do should be pulled down? My hope is that LENR and the E-CAT will do the former and not the latter.

    • US_Citizen71

      I’m sure most if not all on here share your sentiment.

    • bachcole

      I want the poor to have an opportunity to pull themselves up. The micro-loan program works. Handouts do not work.

      Of course, if ALL of the land is “owned” by a few people, it is sort of difficult for poor to pull themselves up. I am in favor of a one time (for the next 30 years) redistribution of land ownership in some areas, like perhaps Guatamala. I do not know but suspect that a very few people own most of the land in Guatamala; the concept of the poor pulling themselves up in Guatamala is absurd if they can’t have land ownership.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Why not be transparent? What does he have to lose. I guess I have been stung too many times by the financial/banking/investment types to share your blind trust.

    • Ophelia Rump

      If you have a personal role in this, it most certainly is not to be Tom Darden.
      You do not have to trust Tom Darden and Tom Darden does not have to please you.
      Those are not essential elements for Tom Darden to be successful in introducing a working LENR product to the world. Now be a good fellow and get us some popcorn so we can go back to spectating on the great work of others.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Oh grand Ophelia, Tom Darden has said, “My objective is not making money”, so why is he withholding “secrets” about Rossi reactor? I frankly do not care if you don’t want to know, but it is important to implementing LENR.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Darden, “My goal is to give your science away, to get out broadly and equitably to the world, to see you receive honor and rewards for your efforts.” A grand and noble statement, I would like to know who is funding this goal and a little clearer picture of who is getting what, when.

    • bachcole

      Bernie, he doesn’t have any of my money. There is no financial reason why I should trust or distrust him. I am certain that if any of his investors asked him pertinent questions about the E-Cat that he would give them straight answers. What I trust about him is that he is going to make good decisions regarding promoting LERN+ technology.

      You don’t know just how much money he has to invest in this project. You act like he has unlimited funds.

      Why should he be transparent to you? No business person is transparent to his competitors, and if he is transparent to you he is transparent to his competitors. And if he is transparent to his competitors, all of his investors will pull their money out and his reputation as a savvy businessman would be destroyed.

  • I just think this was a great speech.
    I wonder who the other LENR groups/individuals that he’s working with are.

    • ecatworld

      He said he invested in two LENR groups, then later Rossi and the E-Cat. Maybe Brillouin?

    • Ophelia Rump

      I wonder more, why does he mention the second investment now?
      Perhaps they are about to come forward with something of their own.
      Tom Darden does not strike me as a frivolous man who wastes his resources. I expect the second investment to become news shortly.

      • ecatworld

        He said they funded two LENR groups before funding Rossi, so I think they are probably smaller outfits with technology maybe not so promising as the E-Cat. He said at first they were not very optimistic about the tech even though they invested. Now things seem to have changed.

  • Asterix

    Just the speech; no Q&A afterwards? What a shame–we might have been able to learn something concrete.

  • LuFong

    Overall I think it was a good speech when the audience and type of speech (opening remarks) is considered. I think it was very supportive of the scientists that are there and provides a proper perspective on how long and complicated LENR understanding and application will be (decades).

    On the other hand his statements regarding the venture capital/business approach need scrutiny:

    To implement this vision, we determined that a business-based
    approach would be the most effective strategy; we looked at many others.

    I know that some of you have felt that business are, and have been
    adversarial to [??] I understand that. But recall that commerce has long
    proven to be primary agent of change in every technical endeavor.

    I agree with many others on this issue that IH and Rossi should disclose the scientific and basic technological basis for their version of LENR. This is not inconsistent with the stated wanting to use a business-based approach. I believe this will lead to the quickest development and adoption of this technology in a world that sorely needs it.

    Look how long it’s taking Rossi to develop his technology for a relatively simple low-heat steam driven application (4 years and counting). Imagine 1000’s of companies, with 100,000’s of scientists and engineers, working to understand and develop this science and technology, driven by market forces to be the first and best in an application area.

    No, as I see it this is pure greed right now even as he professes his interest in developing this technology to combat energy scarcity and pollution. I agree that openly creating a predictable working Ni-H LENR device and making it available to all is the best approach to creating a scientific and technological basis for market based development of LENR based applications.

    • US_Citizen71

      It takes working capital to do the research and development. Uptake of a new technology doesn’t happen overnight. Thousand’s of companies equal thousand of competitors. How many years might it take to get back your investment, if ever with thousands of competitors doing the same? If there is not a reasonable chance for return on investment how many capitalists/companies are going to invest the capital, time and effort to the project? There is a saying in business, “Business done for fun is business best not done.”, I think what many propose of a free release of the IP would lead to business done for fun by many companies.

      • LuFong

        Darden has stated here and on numerous other times that he is not in this for the money. In fact I believe much of the money invested in IH is his. Rossi, I can’t say as much.

        • sebbie

          He may or may not be in there for the money, but it makes sense for him to get a return on his investment so that he can keep investing in other ventures that he believes in.

          • LuFong

            If you read/listen to his speech, he was ready to retire and pass on his quest for clean and cheap energy to the next generation. I think he sees an opportunity to do so and money is not really a factor. For Rossi I get the opposite impression. This is all my opinion of course, just like everyone else’s posts are the theirs.

          • Omega Z

            Rossi spent many years, many thousands of hours & every cent he had including selling his home to fund his research. Do you not think he should get a return for his investment??

        • Omega Z

          For Darden, it isn’t all about the money!!!

          But if you think that translates to zero profits, You’re very naive.
          This is going to require 100’s of billion$ to bring to market.
          These Investments need to be repaid. I’m sure you would be quite miffed if you went to retire only to find those pension funds were not available(weren’t repaid) to do so. I’m also sure you would be shocked if those funds were not invested over the years & your pension was a fraction of what you need to live on.

          It is the ROI that makes them grow to amounts necessary for your retirement. You personally could never save enough for retirement if they didn’t grow from being invested.

          As to profits, You probably have little understanding in how that works. You’re not alone. I’ve known business people who didn’t have a good grasp of it either.

          It’s not a simple matter of taking a $1 product, tacking on a $1 & woo-hoo. Profit. A lot of numbers are crunched as to projected cost including Labor, overhead such as utility costs, maintenance & number of projected sales with a final tally of a Net profit of 10% or so.

          If any of these variables change, you could be in trouble. If you projected 4 million sold units & only sell 3 million, You’re likely already deep in debt. This is how GM ended up Billion$ in debt. Sales didn’t match projections.

          Bottom line is there is no guarantee of a net profit even when planning.
          In any given year, 50% of corporations take a loss every year.

    • Warthog

      Let’s see….Rossi took four years, financed mostly out of his own pocket. The competition, hot fusion, has burned $150 BILLION dollars (probably 99.9% from government) and delivered nothing. Tell me again which works better… or socialism.

      And Rossi’s rate of progress is nothing less than astounding. If you think otherwise, you are simply ignorant of the real world.

      • LuFong

        Comparing it with hot fusion may or may not be relevant. These are two different technologies. The fact that one can do cold fusion in your kitchen/living room is proof. The fact that they have understood the science of hot fusion for long time and we have only a rudimentary and competing theories of LENR is another. And the money spent has not been for nothing. If you think so YOU are the ignorant one.

        And again you keep making false comparisons. If you read my post there is plenty of business opportunities in any new technology. Take the Internet. Developed by the government and released to the world. DARPA works on this very principle. This is not a black and white issue. The question is what is the best way to develop the science and technology.

        • Warthog

          It “has” been spent for nothing. The bottom line of hot fusion research is to develop a working power source. The effort has been a rousing failure, despite fifty years of effort and $150 billion bucks.

          And it was the “hot fusion” boys who instigated the “scientific infanticide” of cold fusion. Why??? To shut down any and all competition for their lucrative grant funding. Even to the point of actually committing scientific fraud (see MIT’s supposedly failed P & F experiment…..which actually DID produce measurable excess heat).

    • lepthadrelix

      Release of information without proof of effectiveness *might* promote R&D, however, it would *certainly* invite resistance, denial, obstruction, competition, litigation and theft. Maybe Darden understands that, and he’s waiting for the proof of effectiveness.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Parkhomov was able to make his reactor from the information that Rossi disclosed.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        The case could be made for not disclosing everything. By not spoon feeding out every detail, people are forced to THINK and maybe come up with something that’s even better than the original invention.

        • Omega Z

          I agree, & have even posted this before.
          If Rossi disclosed everything, we would only have Rossi’s way. This could in fact delay advances in this technology rather then speed things up.

      • LuFong

        Probably, but maybe not. And its still not clear what Rossi disclosed or what Parkhomov actually has. Maybe it’s what he had in 2007 or whenever he first experimented with NI-H system. The information also came just recently. I agree at some point hopefully this year the whole issue will be moot. Rossi claims no one will catch him but I claim it will happen very fast. We shall see.

        • Omega Z

          I think the Parkhomov device is misleading.
          As in the time spent on it. And by this I mean, I think Parkhomov has been following Rossi’s work for quite some time before the Lugano info reveal. With this in mind, he was able to make a lot of progress in what only appears to be a short time.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    I much agree.

    These people are committed to LENR, and there no doubt that LENR exists for these people. A thumps up for TD.

    Perhaps the “disappointment” is that we wanted more info on their 1MW plant working and what kind of time frames are we looking for sales and commercializing?

    Why was the above not done?

    You cannot really go to a conference on LENR and then speak about and HAWK your product like a used car salesman! In fact such behaviors are not only considered trailer park like behavior but will often get you banned from such conferences.

    Perhaps they could also sell you some solar cookware too? Or how about a LENR slow roast cooker?

    In other words while so many of us wanted a “beef” expose of THEIR technology, that’s really not the place, and as noted would be considered rather trailer park to so as such.

    However, I do think in the Q+A, a question as to COP performance and which kind of timelines exist for commercializing their product is a “fair” question – but even those types of questions can be considered “off topic” and “sales job” like.

    Representatives from Intel can attend a general conference on CPU processing and the state of the industry. However to do a speech about their particular processor, and handing out sales brochures for that particular product? Then VERY FAST the conference is NOT for engineering and chip fabrication, but NOW a paid commercial and venue for Intel or anyone else who is so stupid and has ZERO clue as to how professionals conduct business.

    The conference is a not a sales event and product promotion for industrial heat.

    In future conferences, they certainly could add a “vendors” hall for product promotion and information, but once again, these vendor halls etc. are not part of the general speeches’ given at such conferences.

    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Omega Z

      “However, I do think in the Q+A, a question as to COP performance”

      A fair question, but probably still not the time & place for Darden to be answering.
      A question like how is the Pilot plant doing & a Darden response of, “Were quite optimistic” would be plenty.

      In short, many questions could be asked, but be mindful that you can’t honestly expect the answers your looking for. It’s not time yet…

  • LuFong

    I think it’s interesting that Darden says, ” we licensed Andrea Rossi’s technology” versus claims of owning the technology before. Maybe there is no real difference but in my mind the former implies that Rossi still owns the technology and has licensed it out.

    • hempenearth

      Yes, in Australia, as a potential customer, I go through Roger Green of E-Cat Australia, not Industrial Heat – I had that clarified by Leonardo corp

  • Mats Hilmersson

    The IH strategy has been and still is commercial as Darden told us. This mean a strategy where securing IP before competition is crucial. IH has still no interest in a media hype. Remember, they still don’t have a website. They’re looking for just enough academic cred to get their patents granted. That’s their only chance to keep a little bit of control over this tech once it hits the public. When will this reach main stream media(MSM)? Well, it can happen anytime and to me it’s more likely that the replication rumble will enter MSN before a IH press conference.

    • GreenWin

      Cherokee is a VC investment fund with social and environmental interests. Darden stood in front of the leaders of LENR and said essentially – “We have an open checkbook for projects matching our goals.” You can be sure Silicon Valley and the global investment community hears this as an effective talent recruitment speech. This will further IH’s lead in commercial LENR.

      • builditnow

        The hidden message from Darden ?

        Cherokee believes it is way ahead of competitors and can own a big chunk of the LENR energy business, so, play down the progress to buy more time to finish off the products and get them licensed. Cherokee is ready to start acquiring potential competitors / collaborators. Cherokee also wants interested talent on board with Industrial Heat so they don’t go elsewhere. Hint hint, we are Venture Capitalists.

        Send a key person to ICCF19 to give a speech cleverly designed to meet the above objectives.

        For the rest of us, the sooner we make our home built reactors work reliably and teach others how to do it, the faster Industrial Heat has to get products to market. Industrial Heat’s plan seems to be a couple of years in the future unless they are forced to move now by circumstances outside their control.

        • Mats Hilmersson

          I agree that this is exactly what is going on.

          • GreenWin

            Gentlemen, this requires an affected suspicion (1) that Cherokee and IH are out to “eff” the world for big bucks. However, a cogent examination of Cherokee’s past activity in socially responsible investments – especially those with respect to “brownfield recovery” – indicates quite the opposite.

            This of course has little to do with “Home built reactors.” There is nothing to prevent Makers from building home refrigerators, microwaves, vacuum cleaners or carpet sweepers. But really, how many people build their own fridges or microwaves??

            (1) This simulation is programmed to continue the facade of “Us against them.” Respect to sim educators, but this is a failed and transparent approach to behavior modification – suggesting an entirely new pedagogy is needed.

            Criticism goes around — as does all karma. 🙂

          • Agaricus

            Messrs. Darden and Vaughn do seem to be driven by a degree of moral responsibility that is uncommon in ‘big business’, but I’m not sure that completely invalidates Builditnow’s thesis.

            Darden’s speech was very much ‘chairman of the board’ and I think it probably was intended to say that Cherokee offers the natural safe harbour for inventors who show promise.

            The speech certainly wasn’t intended to inform ICCF about the progress of the eCat, which by implication and past statement is just one of several approaches they are supporting – and the most obvious implication is that they would welcome more.

          • Omega Z

            Note: Those who have never done anything don’t know how to do anything.
            Many are behind the times. The Doit Yourselfers are far & few between these days. There appears to be a lot of Wanna Be’s which cause concern. To many of these getting a lot of people injured could lead to excess regulation.

            It is these people that Rossi/Darden would be concerned with. Not qualified people building their own. Their numbers are to few to be of concern.

            I’m a Doit Yourselfer & could build many of those you list & many more. But it would only be for self satisfaction. Cost wise, i can buy them much cheaper then I could ever build them for. They also come with UL certifcation & a guarantee that they will work. I can’t provide that.

  • Ivan Idso

    What excites me is that he knows exactly how well the 1MW plant is performing, so for him to talk with such optimism, validates what Rossi has been saying. His speech was based on knowledge versus speculation.

  • Publius

    Everyone here should do what Darden does: do not speak to what you don’t know or don’t understand and don’t pin all your LENR hopes on Rossi.

    • Daniel Maris

      That’s all very well, but we have what Rossi tells us…and it seems odd that Darden appears either ignorant of, or distinterested in that. Because, if what Rossi tells us is true then Darden ought to be a whole lot more excited…in my view.

      • zeddicus23

        I completely agree with DM’s points.

      • ecatworld

        Darden’s tone was rather understated, but he talked about many of the things that LENR enthusiasts discuss all the time, such as paradigm shifts, disruptions, scientific revolution, upsetting core business paradigms, no pollution, expanding their work, abundance in the face of scarcity, reaching a tipping point, seeing success, signs of progress being so significant, not giving up.

        • Omega Z

          Frank, It is as if Tom Darden has read many a threads here at ECW and more then a few of the posts.

          Actually, I have know idea how close he monitors ECW, But as a low risk gambler, I wouldn’t hesitate to bet dollars to donuts that he does pay some attention to what is posted here at E-cat World.

          Tom Darden can post back to me if I am wrong.

          • ecatworld

            Could be, OZ. I always though that you were him.

          • Omega Z

            I just checked my pockets.
            I would have to do a Rossi & sell my house. And all my neighbors as well & still come up short.

            Did you catch that?
            If he doesn’t respond, it could seem that I’m right.
            If he does respond, I’m right.

          • ecatworld


      • Ivan Idso

        You must not play much poker!
        He would be an idiot to show all his cards right now.

  • Michel Vandenberghe

    I’ve been very interested in Tom D’s presentation. At LENRG – LENR-Cities we have an operating model well aligned with his statements of direction but also designed to add what is missing to the core business of a Venture capital company to get an end to end solution from research to industrialization. Will try to talk with him during the session.

    • Sanjeev

      Is there a chance that he will join the LENRG “ecosystem”? I hope he doesn’t see you guys as main competitors.

      • Michel Vandenberghe

        I think we could be partners. We are looking for a venture capital group in energy and/or environment to implement our new funding model for research and the whole lenr scientific community. would accelarate the whole project. It is important to think that ‘tipping point’ also mean that this is the best window of opportunity for the community. Consider what McKubre said too…

        • Sanjeev

          Nice. There are more ways to collaborate, and sharing of tech is not the only way. I wish you all the best in your dealings with Tom D.

  • Andy Kumar

    I did a quick word search. Darden mentions Rossi only once without saying much about him, +ve or -ve. What can we make of it?

    • ecatworld

      Tom Darden said thatCherokee/IH have invested in two LENR groups in addition to Andrea Rossi, and he may not want to single out one of their investments out publicly at the expense of the others.

      • Sanjeev

        It can also mean that the other LENR groups/individuals, funded by them, are still in the game, secretly doing R&D or production activities, only that we are not aware of anything about them. Note that, the secret of Rossi’s partner came out accidentally, else Cherokee did a good job of hiding everything. We know anything at all about the E-Cat plant because of Rossi and some leaks, not because Cherokee told us anything about it.

        • Omega Z

          I think it’s likely that Darden/Cherokee underestimated the awareness of Rossi & the E-cats on the world stage.
          He didn’t realize that e-cat fans tho small in number can be found everywhere. Even in China. And Even tho Google translate isn’t perfect, It will suffice.

          Note Tom Darden is a quick learn as in he’s done a good job keeping leaks to a minimum since then.

    • GreenWin

      However it is important to seek out any exploitable negative inference. This is the skeptic’s agenda.

    • Sanjeev

      Anything you like. This is a free country !
      Why must he mention him a 100 times anyway? Is that your idea of “proof”?

    • Omega Z

      I did a quick word search. Darden mentions Andy Kumar only. . . .
      Oh, WAIT-
      What can we make of this?

      With further analysis, it appears Rossi & the E-cat are the only 1 mentioned by name.

      • Andy Kumar

        OZ, It is good not to be mentioned in these kind of forums. It will ruin my credentials -:)

  • GreenWin

    Roger, capitalists excel in “sniffing” out the next big thing. This is the hottest “forbidden” technology in human history. 🙂 Your friend, GreenWON!

  • Stanny Demesmaker

    Someone else noted that Tom Darden didn’t explicity say in his speech that CF is real? He has a working prototype in production and he didn’t say anything about it. He could make in LENR mainstream with just one sentence. He didn’t do that because he wants to keep his competitive edge.

    • US_Citizen71

      Having a competitive edge is not a bad thing. The commercial approach does offer several advantages to help the adoption of LENR. One the first to bring a product to the market will set the pricing. If IH starts selling units for X it will be difficult for a competitor to sell something similar for 5X. The lower the price the quicker the adoption rate, this could be in IH’s control. Two without profits it is hard to donate/give-away units to worthy causes. Look at the One Laptop Per Child initiative as a model. Three without profits it is hard to advertise and spread the news. Without advertising it will be a long wait for the average soccer mom/dad to find out about LENR and decide to buy one. Four without profits the money donated for research will only go so far and support so many projects. As long as IH doesn’t get greedy by looking for an extreme amount of ROI and truly gives back to the research community and the world, then I see no problem with their approach.

    • Omega Z

      It ain’t over until the fat lady sings.

      Until the approximately 1 year Pilot plant test is completed & the data analyzed, Darden isn’t going to announce anything that meets your or most others expectations.

      It doesn’t matter how positive day to day operations of the pilot plant are, There are a many number of issue’s that could arise that makes this a no joy test. Thus, Rossi still responds positive or negative as it may be.

      In essence, It would be very premature for Tom Darden to make any statements to this subject at this time. Note it would also be the wrong place & time. Any major announcement would be reserved for a Media attended event likely along side Rossi & the business owner, and a few high profile people. I would think at the very least a State Governor would be present. These sorts can’t help themselves. They want in on the glory.

      • psi2u2


    • psi2u2

      That might not be the only reason he wants to keep expectations low. Think about it.

  • Sanjeev

    MFMP uploaded a clear video.

  • BroKeeper

    Tom Darden is a true ‘brother’s keeper’ like Andrea Rossi.

    • bachcole

      Yes. And I believe that Vaughn is also.

      • BroKeeper


  • Omega Z

    I couldn’t agree more.

  • bachcole

    I admit that he did not have a serious punch as to where the E-Cat is at in that speech. But I think that he made it clear where he was at. Remember that he wrote the boiler plate. He is very hardcore about environmental protection, and he intends to make business work to that end.

    It is speculation when we say that he was there to recruit, but it fits all of the data points for us. He was obviously not spreading the good news of the success with the E-Cat in that speech.

  • LuFong

    Frank Ackland is correct–the updated version is much better and worth a re-listen. I am heartened by the emphasis on the environment as the motivating factor for Cherokee’s investment. I also take note of this (newly added) statement: “My goal is to give your science away, to get out broadly and
    equitably to the world, to see you receive honor and rewards for your
    I hope Rossi listens to this speech!

  • EEStorFanFibb

    Thank you Frank for transcribing that. I know that is a LOT of work. It’s a even greater speech in my mind now.

  • Omega Z

    Yes RB
    You & I share many views. Even where our views differ we have some common ground.

  • NCkhawk

    Not positive about the details but believe that Rossi purchased some of those licenses back after the long delays. I think that Darden’s willingness to work with Rossi on Rossi’s terms was the only way that Rossi was going to get any big cash to work with. The world would likely have been left with years of additional LENR delays (which may still happen) if Darden would not have stepped up. Yours are the hollow words in my opinion.

  • bachcole

    Bruno, you don’t need to be a scientist to contribute here. Part of this revolution is getting the scientists out of the ivory towers and into epistemology and ethics classes. I am sure that your management wisdom would come in very handy here. I have lots to contribute, but it does not fit nicely into any category. Although I am looking forward to my honorary dottote-ate in epistemology. (:->)

  • hempenearth

    E-Cat Australia is still going strong