Experiment to Simulate Excess Heat (Nick Oseyko)

I received the following document from Nick Oseyko, an LENR experimenter from Kiev, Ukraine.

He has carried out an experiment to try to determine whether, in an LENR experiment, using a PID regulator to control temperature along with a wattmeter to measure power input, is appropriate and sufficient to determine whether excess heat is being produced. In this experiment, an LENR event producing excess heat is simulated by putting a small coil inside a ‘reactor core’.

Excess Heat Simulation

  • pelgrim108

    One of the 3 videos from the experiment.
    https://youtu.be/BBjnKyxLXwc

    • pelgrim108

      I find it interesting that it takes about 40 seconds (arbitrary) to notice a drop in main coil wattage, and its a steady wattage in this experiment. If the PID would be switching the power to the main coil on and off like in Firax’s experiment it would take even longer to reckognize a wattage/ current drop.

      • Ged

        Which leaves a long lag where sudden temperature spikes from the core could melt the heater wire before the PID can react. Also suggests the need to wait for steady state before jumping up the set temps, as the signal–reduced heater power–is so slow in response time.

        This is important design data and considerations. Glad he’s testing this.

        • Mats002

          Yes – any other signal is better than heat. What other signals are sent out by the Rossi effect? Pressure, RF, EM, Gamma, X-ray, sound (which is fast pressure differences), vibrations, ..?

          • pelgrim108

            I am thinking relative heat. Heat from unfueled end of the reactor compared to heat of fueled end of the reactor. The fuel capsule would then be off center. The filler rods could have thin tungsten wire in there center running the lenght of the rods and going through the sealing. I dont know anything of how fast these thin wires would heat up in case of LENR. The ends of these wires could also be connected to some kind of a cup to amplify high frequency sound and so be used to transport sound from close to the capsule. ( maybe connected to the capsule?)
            So if the temp diff. between these wires grows bigger then normal you can use that in the control cirkel.

          • Mats002

            What about having that tungsten wire run the whole way through the reactor, going through both filler rods. Then run a current through the wire and measure the resistance (voltage drop) over IT. Resistance will vary by heat, the hotter, the higher resistance. It will be an integrated thermocouple into the core, should give a faster respons time? Same wire can carry vibrations/sound out from the core? Experiments can tell.

          • pelgrim108

            I think your idea is better than mine. Easier to implement.

          • Mats002

            Thanks, but not sure if it works, just being creative. I am not able to experiment like I used to, I travel a lot which suite well for armchair LENR via smartphone but impossible for practical experiments.

          • US_Citizen71

            Or with a thicker rod of tungsten and a PSU made to handle the low resistance you could center heat the reactor with DC. A coil around the outside of the reactor can provide pulsed AC for control if needed.

          • Mats002

            Great combination! It should be possible to alternate between driving the heating with PSU and measure the resistance (active and passive mode) also possible better to heat from inside out than outside in as discussed in another thread here.

          • US_Citizen71

            You could measure the resistance while heating if DC is used. A ammeter inline with the load and voltmeter across the load gives you everything you need to come up with the resistance. But figuring out the data table showing resistance calculated to temperature inside might not be that easy.

          • pelgrim108

            Should there be a thinner portion of this rod be next to the fuel?
            I think that resistance of the rod would then better reflect the temp of the fuel.

          • US_Citizen71

            Maybe, it all depends on the sensitivity of the instrumentation.

      • Obvious

        Exactly. That measurement delay and consequent corrective action delay can be fatal to the experiment.

      • James Andrew Rovnak

        Denis had a nice thermal limit cycle at the end of his test that night with a beautiful pulsating glow on a 15 second period for quit some time before failure. Note the PID controller could never attain the 1200 C set point during the limit cycle. Would love to be able to see what was going on inside his fuel element during that cycle.Temperature seemed to want to go to 950 C – could that be a ssm point?

  • pelgrim108

    One of the 3 videos from the experiment.
    https://youtu.be/BBjnKyxLXwc

    • pelgrim108

      I find it interesting that it takes about 40 seconds (arbitrary) to notice a drop in main coil wattage, and its a steady wattage in this experiment. If the PID would be switching the power to the main coil on and off like in Firax’s experiment it would take even longer to reckognize a wattage/ current drop.

      • Ged

        Which leaves a long lag where sudden temperature spikes from the core could melt the heater wire before the PID can react. Also suggests the need to wait for steady state before jumping up the set temps, as the signal–reduced heater power–is so slow in response time.

        This is important design data and considerations. Glad he’s testing this.

        • Mats002

          Yes – any other signal is better than heat. What other signals are sent out by the Rossi effect? Pressure, RF, EM, Gamma, X-ray, sound (which is fast pressure differences), vibrations, ..?

          • pelgrim108

            I am thinking relative heat. Heat from unfueled end of the reactor compared to heat of fueled end of the reactor. The fuel capsule would then be off center. The filler rods could have thin tungsten wire in there center running the lenght of the rods and going through the sealing. I dont know anything of how fast these thin wires would heat up in case of LENR but the fster the better. The ends of these wires could also be connected to some kind of a cup inside the reactor to amplify high frequency sound and so be used to transport sound from close to the capsule. ( maybe connected to the capsule?)
            So if the temp diff. between these wires grows bigger then normal you can use that in the control cirkel.

          • Mats002

            What about having that tungsten wire run the whole way through the reactor, going through both filler rods. Then run a current through the wire and measure the resistance (voltage drop) over IT. Resistance will vary by heat, the hotter, the higher resistance. It will be an integrated thermocouple into the core, should give a faster respons time? Same wire can carry vibrations/sound out from the core? Experiments can tell.

          • pelgrim108

            I think your idea is better than mine. Easier to implement.

          • Mats002

            Thanks, but not sure if it works, just being creative. I am not able to experiment like I used to, I travel a lot which suite well for armchair LENR via smartphone but impossible for practical experiments.

          • US_Citizen71

            Or with a thicker rod of tungsten and a PSU made to handle the low resistance you could center heat the reactor with DC. A coil around the outside of the reactor can provide pulsed AC for control if needed.

          • Mats002

            Great combination! It should be possible to alternate between driving the heating with PSU and measure the resistance (active and passive mode) also possible better to heat from inside out than outside in as discussed in another thread here.

          • US_Citizen71

            You could measure the resistance while heating if DC is used. A ammeter inline with the load and voltmeter across the load gives you everything you need to come up with the resistance. But figuring out the data table showing resistance calculated to temperature inside might not be that easy.

          • James Andrew Rovnak

            LENR could melt both internal heater & tube were thermal masses too much & sensor response too slow. Optics & thin resistance wire are ms response sensors, but wire resistance must take into account for Li based plasma’s changing or additional conductivity or short circuit?

          • pelgrim108

            Should there be a thinner portion of this rod be next to the fuel?
            I think that resistance of the rod would then better reflect the temp of the fuel.

          • US_Citizen71

            Maybe, it all depends on the sensitivity of the instrumentation.

          • James Andrew Rovnak

            What about looking in one end of the pressure tube with an opticlal temperature probe, could even video tape LENR onset & operation ie self regulation process?

        • James Andrew Rovnak

          Yes & Denis is a tenacious hard working fellow to be much admired! Enjoyed tremendously his efforts & must mention me356 ‘s excellent live play back of his expanded views of dynamics in test data for all to appreciate & speculate about process’ involved or going on!

      • Obvious

        Exactly. That measurement delay and consequent corrective action delay can be fatal to the experiment.

      • James Andrew Rovnak

        Denis had a nice thermal limit cycle at the end of his test that night with a beautiful pulsating glow on a 15 second period for quit some time before failure. Note the PID controller could never attain the 1200 C set point during the limit cycle. Would love to be able to see what was going on inside his fuel element during that cycle.Temperature seemed to want to go to 950 C – could that be a ssm point?

  • pelgrim108

    This article is not yet featured on the home page of E-cat world.

  • Herb Gillis

    Instead of heating fuel to the suspected ignition temperature and worrying about what might happen along the way, why not just pre-heat a shell reactor to the desired temperature first and then slide in a sealed cartridge with the fuel inside. It should be easy to monitor the energy input necessary to maintain the system at setpoint. If the energy input drops significantly then the missing energy must be coming from the fuel cartridge.

  • Herb Gillis

    Instead of heating fuel to the suspected ignition temperature and worrying about what might happen along the way, why not just pre-heat a shell reactor to the desired temperature first and then slide in a sealed cartridge with the fuel inside. It should be easy to monitor the energy input necessary to maintain the system at setpoint. If the energy input drops significantly then the missing energy must be coming from the fuel cartridge.

  • Dr. Mike

    Nick,
    A very nice experiment!
    Dr. Mike

  • Dr. Mike

    Nick,
    A very nice experiment!
    Dr. Mike

  • Dave

    The reduction in drive power is not entirely accurate. The amount of drive power reduction is typically greater than the amount of core power being generated in most of the configurations I have seen. This is because a finite value of thermal resistance exists between the heater coils and the core source of power.
    Heat flux flows through this thermal resistance in such a manner that more heating is required from the heater coil than from the core to achieve the PID balance. This can also be seen by observing the outside temperature of the device when core power begins to appear. That temperature will acutally decrease under this condition since less overall power is then being generated within the system.
    The work performed by Jack Cole and shown on his web site demonstrates this principle very clearly. He observes the heat flux being reduced for his complete system once interal core power is present. This is at the same core temperature established by the PID.
    The error involved in estimating the core power by just observing the input power reduction can vary over a large range depending upon the design. Of course, one can always get the correct answer for core power generation by measuring the calibrated output heat power from the system and subtracting a well cailbrated input power.

  • James Andrew Rovnak

    Nice idea executed very quickly demonstrating the thermal lags the core LENR process is filtered thru. Interesting to know what onset of LENR power really looks like. Self sustaining modes of Rossi & Parkhomov’s data mean we must reduce external power rather quickly & detect LENR process initiation faster than external TC, just maybe. Would like to see optical probe looking in one end where pressure is measured now. Could even video record onset of process when it occurs, No? Maybe us signal for actual control & protection of fuel elements.