MFMP to Start New Glowstick Test, May 28th — Live Thread

There’s a post on the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project’s Facebook page announcing a new live test which is to start later today.

Alan Goldwater of the MFMP gives this schedule:

The current plan is to start the test at 4 PM local (23:00 UTC), to accommodate a wider range of time zones for the second half of the run. The early parts of the ramp should show the pressure peak from hydride decomposition at around 02:00 UTC tomorrow, followed by absorption of hydrogen. We expect the interesting stuff to start at around 850 C, at 10:00 UTC. I’ll post the link for the Youtube stream when we start the run

Calibration runs have already been completed; here are a couple of charts which will be useful for reference:

mfmp1
mfmp2

We’ll be following the action here on ECW on this thread. More information when it comes available.

Here’s the live thread:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 2 (cont.)

Part 3

Part 3 (cont.)

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7

Thanks to Sanjeev for starting a spreadsheet to track data from this test. Here’s the link, and it’s editable by anyone:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ODbN9Oq6Pjyp9A61hdX0-fBJIXBBKMk7Ei06PzTc-Q/edit#gid=1291075296

  • Sanjeev

    Alan posted the essential details of the setup:

    http://magicsound.us/MFMP/GS3_dwg.jpg

    • Ged

      Such an awesome design. This will be fun.

  • pelgrim108

    Green line —- Outside heater temperature for the active side ( Β°C )
    Purple line —-. Outside heater temperature for the dummy side ( Β°C )
    Light brown —- Heater voltage to both sides ( Volts RMS )
    Light Blue —– Reactor Pressure ( psi )

    • R101

      Thanks for that. maybe they could have a legend for the charts πŸ˜‰

      • Ged

        They do, just gotta get lucky and have Youtube allow your quality to jump high enough to read it. Sometimes it’s good for me, and sometimes it drops to 240 potato quality.

      • Skip

        Try and access via magicsnd1 on YouTube.

        • Ged

          The lines have crossed, and active is now hotter than null, which did not happen in controls or before this point. Have to see how long it lasts and magnitude.

          • pelgrim108

            I hope it will continue that way.

          • Ged

            It’s a very dramatic signal, and still growing. I am struggling not to be excited, but gotta wait.

          • Curbina

            I see it in the stream, albeit can’t really read the text, but if I got the colors right then the lines crossed and the trends split for good. However I don’t now what’s the temp range, can anyone enlighten me please?

          • Ged

            The active is 597.44 and null is 587.4. A complete reversal of difference, and growing a little still.

          • Curbina

            Well, still a long way to go to the critic threshold, let’s hope this one is the one that will go in history.

          • Ged

            Now at 595 and 583. We should be in the low range of activity for internal temps though?

          • Andre Blum

            I haven’t followed all of the video, but is it my imagination or does the spectrometer image look different from before? more scattered?

          • Ged

            Hm, not sure. But we are looking for 511 keV gammas from positron anihilation, so that would be a peak a little left of center if we see it.

          • pelgrim108

            Its at 17C right now

          • Sanjeev

            First positive difference since it began yesterday. There is a drop in dummy, which can be due to drop in power, but I do not know if the power really dropped.

          • Ged

            This is the serendipitous nature of control run having “active” always lower than null, as now this line cross is obvious and unmissable.

      • JohnOman

        Thanks to sanjeev’s work on google docs, I’ve been able actually see something I can make sense out of. THANK YOU! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ODbN9Oq6Pjyp9A61hdX0-fBJIXBBKMk7Ei06PzTc-Q/edit?pli=1#gid=1291075296

        • Sanjeev

          Welcome John. Its a copy of Firax’s sheet, I managed to feed in a few numbers only. πŸ˜€
          So its a community effort and I thank everyone who is updating it.

          • pelgrim108

            Frank, the last video link in the article is wrong, it should be:
            youtu*be/FmirPpEYo6I

  • Ged

    Got the first pressure spike from the first decomposition. Very large rise, good to see it’s holding just fine.

    • GreenWin

      Great idea. But without screen resolution able to clearly deliver data to viewers, the entire “live stream” is a bust. Google Hangouts is insufficient for these exercises. With all the IT expertise here surely there is a better solution.

      • Ged

        Thankfully some folks can read the data, like myself. Dunno what is required for Youtube to give you a good quality in the stream, but sucks that it isn’t being as consistent in quality as other methods of streaming.

        • R101

          While I can’t read the writing on the separate screen grabs, I can see the graph traces well enough to be able to see what’s going on. Maybe a Multicast streaming protocol could do the job better than Youtube/Google which then can be dropped completely.

          • Ged

            Its interesting. I don’t know why some people can’t read it while others (like my connection) can. But, that makes me agree all the more. Google hangouts is just not reliable to presenting video clearly to the widest audience, like Firax’s was. We definitely need a better system for MFMP.

  • James Andrew Rovnak

    I to have a 48 inch screen & find it useless with four input from MFMP. Put them up individually next time; going to bed now frustrated,

  • Axil Axil

    Unlike the Firax Tech experiment that we just saw, the temperature of the reactor is far to smoth. So sorry please excuse me, I beleive that a large amplitude temperature cycle of the reactor is required to get the LENR reaction going.

    • Obvious

      This may be so, but we really have no data on this.
      On the other hand, the makers of Kanthal suggest that on-off cycling reduces the life of the wire by 20% at the same temperatures as a thyristor control. Since the wire will be heated to roughly 4 times its long term recommended maximum surface loading, and the coils are 40 times closer together than recommended by the makers of Kanthal for maximum effectiveness and service life, and the coil is effectively enclosed in a reducing atmosphere, I give the wire a 20% of surviving the test at all, and the on-off cycling would likely push it over the edge to near zero chance of surviving. IMHO.

  • Ged

    First stream has run out of time, second here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rDwFVai-cw

  • Sanjeev

    Since its unreadable and graphs keeps scrolling and sometimes the numbers are blocked by some icons, does anyone want to record the readings in a shared spreadsheet ?
    The Firax’s sheet is still open for editing. Data from video every 15 mins should be ok. I made a new sheet.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ODbN9Oq6Pjyp9A61hdX0-fBJIXBBKMk7Ei06PzTc-Q/edit#gid=1291075296

    • ecatworld

      Thanks, Sanjeev — good idea. I have put a link to the ss in the post above.

      • Sanjeev

        Thanks. Data from 1st video is almost fed in.

  • artefact
  • Stephen

    Hi Alan and Skip. Good luck with the test and getting extra heat. Thanks for including the spectrometer too I will enjoy watching this run πŸ™‚ . If it does show radiation at some points it will be intersting to see what it is. But even if no radiation at all is detected at high or low keV but excess heat is seen that will be fascinating in itself.

  • Sanjeev

    Live video with chat (a copy).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmirPpEYo6I

    • Stephen Taylor

      Can someone explain what is the blue chart lower left of screen?

      • Stephen

        i understand it is the out put from the gamma spectrometer. Currently it seems to be reading background radiation.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Thanks Stephen. I had been hoping it had to do with hydrogen absorption but I see the pressure continues to rise with temperature. No good way to get a quantitative handle on hydrogen absorption at this time I guess. They are doing a great job and it is all very interesting.

          • Stephen

            It would be great if they can find a way to see inside the reactor some day. Or listen as per Andrea Rossi πŸ˜‰

  • artefact
    • Ged

      Starting to enter the interesting internal temperature range, but pressure is still high, if that matters.

  • Skip

    Alan is awake now and hopefully he can fix my screw ups shortly. Temp ramp now on “hold”

  • clovis ray

    sorry should have read through more throuly, great spreadsheets and more, thanks frank.

  • artefact

    nice rise!
    Separating more… 601 – 579 C

    • Ged

      Looking more and more like signal by the minute πŸ™‚

    • Ged

      Wow, it’s really taking off now, my word.

  • Curbina

    In the image, which side of the reactor is the fueled one? Is this known?

    • pelgrim108

      Left side of the video is fueled. Right side of the diagram is fueled.

      • Curbina

        Thanks!

      • Ged

        Yeah, left doesn’t dim as much as right between power pulses.

        • pelgrim108

          Thats my observation also, and its more concentrated.

  • timycelyn

    the gamma spectrometer output is interesting as well. Intensity has not shot up, but the trace instead of being a tight, narrow line has slowly spread to quite a wide footprint.

    There seems to be some correlation between something happenening at this level, and the temperature data we are seeing.

    • artefact

      I saw that Alan did some configuration in the spectrometer window about an hour ago. He probably changed something.

      • Sanjeev

        Yes, he “clears” it every hour. I don’t know how that works.

        • timycelyn

          Well, I’m still leaning towards this change in the spectrometer o/p being associated with the temperature data, but I accept that my detailed knowledge is slight, so I will wait for wiser heads to comment as this data continues to be scrutinised….

    • timycelyn

      OK, I need someone who understands these spectrometers to interpret the output for me. Is it:

      a) An experimental artefact of no relevance or
      b) Exciting. If so, why?

      • Obvious

        This is strange behavior. It may be that the sodium iodide crystal is getting hot, or the photomultiplier is getting some interference.

        • timycelyn

          Ah – thanks v. much, got it….

          • Obvious

            It would have been cool to see them try a couple “hot” items live, just to show what it looks like.

  • Jouni

    Thanks everyone in MFMP for your cruicial efforts for the mankind.

    Wouldn’t the situation be more comparable if the now empty(?) half of the reactor would instead be filled by Ni-dust without other incredients?

    • Ged

      The cool thing is this behavior started suddenly after holding for a long while at 600 C with no change in temp set point. Before that, no difference versus the control run.

  • Mark

    is this with a larger tube (larger cross section of fuel) they said might be necessary to sustain the reaction?

    • Wishful Thinking Energy

      I believe this is still with the 0.125″ tube that has been used in previous experiments.

  • pelgrim108

    Alan Gold water is ansewering all your questions here live:
    youtu*be/FmirPpEYo6I

  • Curbina

    The temps are drifting away slowly buts steadily. Oh the drama! Has the power been increased steadily or in steps? I certainly am not all acquainted with the set up this time.

    • Ged

      Power seems to be being held. It was originally rising in a ramp like the control. The PID controls the power, based on temp of active cell.

      • Curbina

        Ok, thanks, very interesting, I guess the idea is to not let it run away. They plan to let it run as long as it does not blows? or the experiment has a maximum duration pre defined?

      • Curbina

        One thing we can gather from the data is that the drift is more owed to the cooling of the unfueled cell than to the rise of the fueled one. Isn’t that weird?

        • Obvious

          Definitely a source of uncertainty to look into.

          • Ged

            Expected signal of excess heat, as long as power in is following.

          • timycelyn

            Isn’t that the way the control system is set at the moment? Try and maintain the temperature of the active side at whatever set point is chosen? If additional heat is generated, this causes less power to be applied to amintain the set point, thereby leading to cooling on the control side.

          • Ged

            Yes

          • Sanjeev

            Exactly.
            And that’s what seems to be happening. But I’m not sure if the power is decreasing because of the jumpy voltage data (rapid on off).
            May be Alan has integrated power data and can tell us ?

          • Obvious

            Yes, but it also has the side effect of any thermocouple-related behavior differences from one side to the other causing the controller to side with the loaded side. Since it is known that the coils move a bit inside the outer tube, and there is some slack in the spacing between tubes, this might add other artifacts into the control. It was good to see the empty side hotter for a while, and possibly it could still go back to that, or close the gap again if it is just coil-TC related behavior.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            That’s the problem with this kind of setup. However, significant HAD could dispel all doubts.

          • Ged

            Or run a control afterwards to compare with the first control.

          • Obvious

            I wonder if the inactive side using LAD instead of LAH would be OK, or if Brian Ahern was just unlucky before. It would be a neat test anyways.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            So if I read the spreadsheet correctly, we are now seeing 4:30 hours of continuous excess heat being produced? If so, this reactor is up and running and we aren’t in any startup phase anymore.

            First question: how long should we be running at this output to beat every possible chemical explanation?

            Next question would be: how do we increase the output? Should we try to up the input power a bit?

          • Ged

            If Pekka or one of our other experts at calculating chemical max are around, they could let us know. I think it is long past chemical, even if you take the entire mass of the charge, but calculations would show.

            It seems to be leveled off, so might be time to rise temp in a few more data points to be sure. If it is like Parkhomov’s, higher temp will accellerate the reaction for more excess. But who knows, maybe we found the sweetspot.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I do hope someone here can do the math. It would be very sensible to wait at this output level until we exceed max chemical explanation. That result alone would be absolutely sensational and level with what Parkhomov achieved. After that, I really don’t care if we blow up the reactor trying to get some really impressive COP πŸ˜‰

          • Ged

            It’s something like 0.4 eV max per atom for chemical. I might be able to do it once I’m home.

            And true :)! I hope the reactor survives so an after run bookend calibration could be done.

          • Bob Greenyer

            If we are seeing excess right now, then it is worth holding for some time so that it is incontrovertible.

            The good thing about this temperature is that it is in calibration.

            Only after full – post experiment analysis and full crowd scrutiny would it be prudent to make more certain statements.

            The reality is, ANALYSIS of the CAKE is the key – ok – so we MAY see excess heat in this run – but if the cake shows transmutations / isotopic shifts, then we will be in a good position.

            We already have a broad range of analysis of the Ni used. If the analysis supports Parkhomov – things will be very interesting.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Emotionally I would like to see an even larger temperature differential, but intellectually I would like to run this test at this temperature for a long time with this 40C+ excess heat.

            The longer it runs, the more (isotopic) changes should occur to the fuel which makes for more convincing proof of a nuclear reaction. Running for days at this temperature with this excess output should be well within the reactor’s capability.

            Also, running for day’s continuously would very probably score high on the ragone chart, eliminating chemical fuel as a possible explanation.

            At the end of the test we could either up the temperature and see where it leads us, or see if we get Heat After Dead.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Here we go!

          • Ged

            Oh man ramping up, holding on to my hat. What’s the new target?

          • Sanjeev

            I though you were waiting for transmutations πŸ˜‰
            Great, going into sweet zone….

          • Ged

            Guess that means we need 750 external to get that 1200 internal. Still on both calibration charts, which is perfect.

          • Bob Greenyer

            The plan is to steady as we go, bump up to 1150 internal and let sit steady for an extended period for observation before considering overtly stressing the apparatus.

          • NT

            Bob, is your take that we are now definity into LENR nuclear reaction zone?

          • Bob Greenyer

            For me, I need to see transmutations or emissions.

            What is happening is interesting. Let’s see how the next 24 hours pans out.

            Whatever – Alan and Skip have built a beautiful experiment.

          • NT

            Keeping my fingers crossed and wishing you all the best for these dramatic efforts…

          • Andre Blum

            all kidding about binders and protocols aside: waiting much longer in this state is an option. (not sure about a week).
            MFMP, if I remember correctly, has a mission to show excess heat, create reproduction setups and give them to labs around the world. Nowhere in their mission do they state engineering its output to the max. If this is real excess heat, we are already way beyond the microwatt palladium deuterium setups of the past era.
            Not overdoing it right now *is* an option.

          • Ged

            Very very true. Astutely so.

          • Andre Blum

            but no fun πŸ™‚

          • Ged

            Everyone loves the sparksplosions!

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Yeah, we should let it simmer for a bit…

          • Axil Axil

            Place the reactor into a deep thermal cycle so that the temperature passes through the critical temperature level many times. Each pass through the supercritical phase boundary produces more nano-particles. More nanoparticles produce more reaction. The value of this critical temperature level is not yet known but it could be between 1000C and 1100C

            Parkhomov used a triac that produced pulsed current that then produced a temperature cycle. As more gas turns into nanoparticles, the gas becomes less dense and the pressure drops. When the pressure is constant at its lowest point, the number of nanoparticles that has nucleated out of the gas are at its highest point.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Thanks for your answer, Axil Axel. Always interesting to hear your thoughts. However, the link you embedded is way above my ability to understand.

            I wouldn’t be surprised at all if what you propose fires the reaction up, but as you said we don’t really know the critical phase boundary. In absence of such knowledge, how would you suggest we continue? Wait some more at this level and let it produce some more excess heat, slowly step up the input power, cycle the power up and down or do you have another suggestion?

          • Axil Axil

            Cycle the temperature over a 200 or 300C delta as the maximum of the cycle is gradually increased.

          • LENR4you

            @Axil Axil fast temperature cycle takes place insight a Stirling engine. Put the lenr insight the stirling engine with working Gas H2.

          • Axil Axil
        • Ged

          Expected due to PID controlling power in based I active temps ;). Means active is getting hotter by itself as TCs see it and needing less energy, so null gets less heating.

  • builditnow

    Does anyone have tips on how to improve the resolution. When It starts I get 480p, not good enough to see understand much. When I switch to HD 720, Firefox eats up over 2 gigs of ram and then dumps most of this ram after a minute and the live stream just sits and hangs.
    Anyone having any luck at HD resolution?

    • Obvious

      Mine works fine, but I have a hot rod computer. It doesn’t look much better though.

      • builditnow

        Obvious, thanks, I wonder if my download speed is insufficient. I have about 6 mb down. What is your download speed?
        My laptop has 8gigs of ram, running Win 7, 64 bit. It seems to be Flash that’s crashing. What browser are you using?

        • Obvious

          Right now IE, but Chrome was the same. Win8, factory overclocked i7, 64 G ssd drive with Win8 living on it, and uses the rest as active storage/cache. The Hard drive is just for inactive storage. 16 G Ram. I have up to 15 Mb download speed, but I have also set it up to sync with the download sample rate to match the provider delay (I can’t remember what its called properly anymore, it was a program put in so satellite internet wouldn’t cause grief with big uploads and downloads).

          • Andre Blum

            I have 180 Mbps down (dutch ISPs rule!) but err.. it doesn’t help much. Sometimes I can do HD, more often not. Chrome, macbook air, SSD

          • Obvious

            Operating system on SDD rocks. I’ll never go back to hard drive only.
            At my last house the switch box for the whole area was directly across the street. I had way more bandwidth than I was supposed to have.

          • Andre Blum

            according to “stats for nerds”: 3 Mbps on average for HD720:

          • artefact

            nice.

          • builditnow

            Ok, you clearly out power my laptop. The issue seems to be FireFox. But, seems like the stream is not HD so going to HD does not improve things.
            However, I’m rescued by the available spreadsheet.
            https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ODbN9Oq6Pjyp9A61hdX0-fBJIXBBKMk7Ei06PzTc-Q/edit?pli=1#gid=1291075296

          • Obvious

            I think it may be going out at either 720 or 1080, but it isn’t clear why it is so fuzzy. Someone mentioned down compression from 1080 causing the problem.

    • US_Citizen71

      You might try another browser FF tends to be a bit of a memory hog these days.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I can only get it to work with Chrome browser. Firefox exhibits the same behavior as you describe.

      • Obvious

        Yes. I just tried Firefox, and it doesn’t want to work.

        • builditnow

          Obvious, thanks, the Safari browser allows me to switch to HD, however, not much improvement in resolution.
          I’ll stick with the spreadsheet view.

          • Obvious

            The most useful part of the video is seeing serious excess actually occur, or a spectacular coil failure. The rest is pretty boring, even for glowing tube fans. The chat is worthwhile on the relay (I hope they got it going again), and the video can be paused to spare the CPU some effort.

    • keV

      I streamed it for a bit at 720p with chrome browser on my 5 year old dell laptop with no issues, but I wouldn’t say the image was particularly sharp – I then found the spreadsheet and find that is good enough to get a sense of what is happening.

  • artefact

    The non active cell went 40 C down in 2 hours and 45 minutes while the active one went up about 10 C.

    • Ged

      Still going up too.

  • builditnow

    To MFMP and Alan Goldwater, I’m very much appreciating your work and wanted to let you know that for some reason I’m “resolution impaired” on my computer. At resolution 480 I can’t make out what I’m looking at, so, I’m switching off the stream.
    Otherwise, I’d be right there with you guys.
    I’m hopeful that your setup will give positive results (but it could be positive or negative … to quote AR πŸ™‚ )
    I’ll check in at e-catworld.com from time to time.

    • Bob Greenyer
      • builditnow

        Bob, thanks, I’ve moved to the spreadsheet. If Alan is in Silicon Valley, perhaps I can assist in person. I’m not far from Apple HQ. Let me know.

      • Obvious

        What is the reason for the big data gap?

        • Ged

          People were asleep and no one around to restart stream, I think.

        • Bob Greenyer

          That is because it took me some time to teach skip on my phone, whilst on bus and train – how to set up a stream

          The spreadsheet is data scraped by humans from the streams

          there will be no gap in the data captured on hug net

          It should not happen again – intact, you can set up 10 live events in a row to automatically start one after another – we should do that.

          • Obvious

            Any chance someone with Hug net access could fill that in? The precursor activity to the heat crossover would be nice to see.

          • artefact

            With the current dropping of 18 psi per 5 hours it will only take 113 more hours to 0 psi πŸ™‚

          • Ged

            Only πŸ˜‰

          • Bob Greenyer

            and 0 psi is still atmospheric – because this is gauge pressure

          • Andre Blum

            @bobgreenyer:disqus is the hugnet data viewable (real time) on a public server (as was the case with data.hugnetlab.com)?

          • Bob Greenyer

            sadly know – Alan is still learning it and has yet to hook it up.

          • Dr. Mike

            Bob,
            If you get a chance, would you answer the questions that I posted near the bottom of the comments? (14 hours ago)
            Thanks!
            Dr. Mike

          • Obvious

            Yes, the diameters need some fixing to make sense.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Sorry Mike, I was on bus from eastern Czech to south coast of UK and barely slept last night – tried to help with the streams where I could – very exhausted – near 24 hours travel. will see what I can do.

          • Private Citizen

            It is maddening not being able to read the legends on the charts. Any help?

          • Andre Blum

            the legends? or the scales?

            The legend is explained in the spreadsheet:
            Green line —- Outside heater temperature for the active side ( Β°C )
            Purple line —-. Outside heater temperature for the dummy side ( Β°C )
            Light brown —- Heater voltage to both sides ( Volts RMS )
            Light Blue —– Reactor Pressure ( psi )
            Left Side = Active sideGamma Spectrometer reset every hour

          • Private Citizen

            thank u.

          • Andre Blum

            also: the bottom right quadrant is a zoomed in version of the top right quadrant, allowing (some of) us (with HD) to read the essential values.

            The spreadsheet mentioned has sheets/tabs/pages. be sure to look at the “MFMP GS3 data” sheet.

          • TomR

            I don’t think this can be kept quiet very long. I wonder when the spin doctors will start?

          • Ged

            That crossover in temps was dang dramatic to watch. I must whole heartedly thank MFMP and Alan for giving the chance to be lucky enough to see that happen live.

          • R101

            Damn it, I had to sleep.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            To be honest, I’m on the bubbly right now πŸ™‚ Don’t care if it turns out to be a broken sensor or something; for now this is the most fascinating LENR test I’ve had the privilege of attending and possibly I’m attending a historic event!

            Should this turn out to be what it seems it is, then this is Parkhomov style attention grabbing. Possibly more so because of the open nature of the test and the relative easy way people should be able to reproduce the results.

          • NT

            And the continuing excess temperature and plus 1.xx COP now over six hours must eliminate any chemically induced heat and points to LENR nuclear reaction for this event…

          • Jamie Sibley

            I would like to point out a possible explanation for the temperature differential.
            If the heater wire on the fueled side has oxidized slightly more that on the un-fueled side, then increase in wire resistance on that side would cause a greater portion of the total heat output to be present on the fuel side. This is an inherent risk with using heaters in series. I would like to see a quick reading made with a multi-meter of thee voltage on both sides of the heat, but that means someone has to reach in a touch a probe to the wire between the two heater half’s.

          • uDevil

            Checks can be made after the test. I don’t know if a post-test calibration is planned. Has anyone measured changes in heater wire properties in previous tests?

          • Sanjeev

            That can be one explanation. I don’t think it will be possible to measure the resistance of two parts at this time, the middle of the wire is inside. It can be done, and should be done after the experiment is over.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I agree for two reasons:
            – I would not introduce an unknown action to the reactor now, possibly disturbing it and contaminating the test
            – That reactor is currently running at a 1000C+ internal temperature. I would not recommend getting in too close proximity.

          • Sanjeev

            I just remembered, they have already heated the wire to max temperature during the calibration. Which means whatever oxide formation was to happen, already happened before the fueled run. As far as I know, once an oxide layer is formed it will protect the wire from further oxidation and no significant change will be seen in resistance.
            Anyhow, its still good to check it after the experiment.

          • Bob Greenyer

            You are right

          • Alain Samoun

            Temperature of empty part is rising, hope it is not the sign of TC failure. Can you confirm with an IR thermometer?

          • Stephen Taylor

            Only try to use full screen and if you have HD available use that. I am on youtube with one tab and here on another using google chrome for browser on a modest laptop and having no problems with the close up chart.

          • Sanjeev

            The video is only for seeing the pretty glow of tube and gamma.
            All data and charts are in the spreadsheet (link above). No need to stress eyes !

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Anybody know what’s happened with the youtube chat session with Alan? It seems stopped.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Big dip in excess heat now. Seems like Axil Axil his prediction comes true.

            Sadly…

          • Ged

            A little lower on the oscillation. It is supporting his prediction so far. LENR also consumes fuel, so one would expect that it would eventually fizzle out if the effect is from LENR — just orders of magnitude longer and more energy release before fizzle than chemical can produce.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Now that we basically have LENR confirmed (yes, I know the real test will be in the analysis of the data), I’m looking for a higher reactor output.

            What’s strange to me is that Rossi and Parkhomov achieved so much higher output compared to ours. As this test is close to Parkhomov’s test using his fuel, I suspect there must be a second stage or something that we haven’t triggered yet. Now that it is decided to up the internal temperature up to 1200C, achieving that (secondary) goal of higher excess output would really make my day.

          • Ged

            It is true they had Much higher internal temps for their reaction than what is going on here. So it could be we are at the low end of triggering and it is consuming the “easy” fuel and slipping back out. Or, put another way, it isn’t sustaining new production of fuel for itself, as would be the case with Axil Axil’s hypothesis. We’ll see as temps go higher then ;).

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            The odds of my hypothesis going against Axil Axil’s were alway going to be very bad. But hope lives forever and it would have been great if we’d seen excess output rise with increased input power.

            Let’s see if more magic happens at higher temperatures

          • Ged

            Hey, the bump ups have been small, still plenty of data left to gather which could support your hypothesis too, haha.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I’ll keep the faith then. Miracles do still happen, hahaha!

          • US_Citizen71

            If the reaction was producing more heat might it also heat the null side via conduction since the whole null side is alumina? and could an increase in heat output close the gap via conduction?

            edit: Mentally trying to draw an average line on the volts it looks like a downward trend.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Interesting. I have no idea, but I wouldn’t dismiss that option. The gap to the unheated reactor is closing down a bit so that could be down to convection. It’s an issue with this setup that Denis Vasilenko his experiment with two separate reactors didn’t have.

          • Omega Z

            The 2 in 1 was my 1st concern when I saw the setup.
            The null side will absorb heat from the active side. All things being equal, the Gap will equalize to a point over time if the input is held steady. I’m sure this could be calculated mathematically.

            The point is there will always be a correlation in this setup. The hotter the active side, the hotter the null side. It will be pulled along with it. All you can claim is the active side can get hotter. Explaining that could be difficult as there are many possibilities that would need ruled out before LENR effect can be seriously considered.

            I also had some concerns about Dennis Vasilenko’s setup as well in the way it was wired in a series. One can have an impact on the other. However, in his setup, if you had a 200`C difference it wouldn’t matter.

            I wonder if they are trying to hard to make everything equal & creating issues or just the lack of equipment(expense) for 2 simultaneous setups. 1 active, 1 Null… I really hate to see these guys put in so much time, work & effort into something that has a high probability of being inconclusive due to the setup..

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            And just before I was going to sleep, I saw this post. So this is my last reply for now.

            “The point is there will always be a correlation in this setup”
            ^^^ This ^^^

            Although I’m quite optimistic due to the sudden change in behaviour of the active reactor at 600C which looks to me like an LENR event, this setup certainly suffers from a correlation problem.

            You cannot dismiss the notion that the temperature gap is not 100% LENR. I guess the final answer to this issue lies in the analysis of the fuel. Therefore it seems imperitive to me that this test runs for a long time with excess heat so that isotopic changes or transmutations in the fuel should occur in representative quantities. That would put my mind to rest as to the type of reactions occurring.

          • Obvious

            I see that the GS3 specs have appeared on the spreadsheet. They are clearly wrong, since the ID of the cover needs to be at least 2.048 mm in diameter larger than the OD of the experiment tube to fit the wires.
            Edit: OH. I see Mike saw it too.
            When errors propagate like this, it bugs me.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Another prediction coming up: Looks like the temperature rise to 650C did nothing. Excess temperature seems to be on the rise again looking for equilibrium now that we are an hour at target temperature. If so we are in a temperature range where nothing much is happening, except that we learned that applying more input power seems to dampen the reaction momentarily.

          • Ged

            Haven’t gone that far towards the supposedly optimal 1200 C internal range yet. It’s on an upward bounce, so you aren’t totally vested by Axil Axil, yet. Totally could still be an underdog story!

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Now I won’t go to sleep crying. You’ve given me hope. Thanks πŸ˜‰

          • R101

            Does any one have a link to Part 5 (live) video feed? Thanks

          • Bob Greenyer
          • R101

            Cheers Bob!

          • Bob Greenyer

            regularly seeing 44.5ΒΊC external temperature differential – which is very encouraging – if it was a mere offset varied by temperature that would be less interesting – but it is going up and down.

          • R101

            Too right Bob. This is been a great experiment! I really like being able to follow along too.

          • Bob Greenyer

            The radiation accumulation needs to have background subtracted from it – so it will be interesting to see if that reveals anything later down the line also.

          • R101

            I think you guys are going to get some good data in all areas of this test.
            Do you happen to know what Alan’s plans are? IE; keep pushing the voltage up till it fails or keep running it at the (known) limit of the gear?

          • Bob Greenyer

            it is about 1080 in the core now (peaking to maybe 1100), Alan is leaving it like that overnight to get a bunch of steady state data – and take a break (Skip is watching over it)

            The next step will be up to 1150 internal where Alan will likely leave it again for an extended period before taking it up further.

          • R101

            Thanks again Bob

          • Stephen

            It’s great following this experiment. The way it’s set up and being executed is looking really good. Looking forward to seeing the final radiation data πŸ™‚ but even low or no radiation will be an amazing result if we are getting excess heat.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Yes, and thanks again for enabling this key piece of equipment.

            I think we need to get a realtime, effective power monitor in Alans hands also.

            I think the protocol for reactor failure / shut down, should be to get the scintillator as close as possible as soon as possible.

          • Mike Henderson

            70 degree delta T!!!

            By my reckoning, that’s over 250 Watts of excess heat.

          • Ged

            A nice, warm cup of tea.

          • Mats002

            Who asked for that cup of tea in the first place? Was it back in 89 FP or later?

          • NT

            I believe it was the patho-skep Mary Yugo back when Rossi first introduced his warm cat…

          • Mats002

            Ha, ha as I remember his real name was revealed as George Hody(?) and he is in the calorimetric business. No need for calorimetry with large COP and transmutations in ash.

          • penswrite

            To channel Mary for a moment: The observed COP might be due to–or dismissed as–a measurement error. HAD and Transmuted ash, however, would/will be harder to dismiss.

            Beyond this, some might question the utility of transmuting nickels into pennies, but I think even Mary would have to be impressed by that result.

          • rats123

            Let’s wait and see how it goes. As much a crackpot as George/Mary or whatever his name is, he/she is pretty knowledgeable and does make some good observations.

          • penswrite

            Is George/Mary still around?

          • penswrite

            It would be interesting to ask Mr. Hody to help calorimetrically validate some future MFMP replication. As I remember, a number of years ago, George/Mary was very absorbed by the topic of LENR, and eager to disprove its reality.
            Would he now be willing to assuage his own/others’ doubts?

          • Bob Greenyer

            He/she recently joined our FB and showed us where to get sample bags from ebay so that we could distribute fuel

          • Lingo

            The seemingly nice little gentleman’s gesture with the bags might seem insignificant, however it is not…

          • rats123

            70 degree difference is still within the margins of error. Let’s see how this goes.

          • Ed Pell

            Richard Garwin came up with the cup of tea line. Garwin debunked Weber’s gravity wave results.

          • artefact

            Pons and Fleischmann explained in 1989 that their reactor in the current state was only capable of making hot water for tea. After that Douglas Morrison asked each year at the cold fusion conference if he could have a coup of tea.

          • Mats002

            Is Morrison still around?

          • artefact

            Not any more since 2001 i think.

          • artefact

            Would it be possible to calculate from the influence of the active core on the null device a more realistic cop? (via conductivity, area where they touch, …)

          • Mats002

            COP is higher then calculated then, because the null side gets hotter from the active side, right?

          • artefact

            I think so but I don’t know how much.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Perfect!

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            If this trend continues, I recon we will see 80 degree delta before we hit 1250C internal temp.

            Of course we could also see the reactor really firing (or blowing) up…

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Quite happy to see the test still running without any problems and good pressures. This is definitely a good reactor design.

            The differential has increased a couple of degrees in the last two and a half hours while still at 680 external temp. Can anyone tell me if the power input has gone down too?

          • magicsnd1

            No changes to settings in over 6 hours. Skip
            Had to back off the coffee tho…

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Thanks Skip.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Not that I know of

          • US_Citizen71

            The fuel load is only .33g and I believe both of the other fuel loads were over a gram. I would expect that the ratio of reactor weight to fuel is might be higher because of that so there is likely more mass to spread the heat per weight unit.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Call out to people capable of assisting running the experiment.

            Is there anyone out there willing to take a stint monitoring the experiment – right now, this one looks like it may run and run – largely down to Alan’s excellent design – but these things can be very wearing.

            It would be unfortunate if it was brought to an early conclusion due to exhaustion

            If you are near, or can be near to Santa Cruz California, let me know by writing here:

            [email protected]

          • Andre Blum

            @bobgreenyer:disqus unfortunately not. If there are other ways in which we can help out (from remote), will you let us know?

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            If you can manage to do the next test in Holland, i’d be happy to help.

          • Andre Blum

            same here.

          • Gerard McEk

            ZZZ, If you are interested, contact me.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I wasn’t aware of that. I’d like meeting you guys.

          • Gerard McEk

            [email protected]
            Ik verwijder dit als ik een email van je krijg

          • Andre Blum

            ZZZ can you send me an e-mail, andre (at) blums (dot) nl

          • magicsnd1

            Once again I want to caution everyone against making any assumption about excess heat in this test.

            In particular, I’m greatly concerned by the apparent linearity of the temperature
            delta against operating point. Real world phenomena seldom behave that nicely, which leads me to
            suspect either a change in the thermocouple mounting or a failure or
            error in the HUGnetLab board setup. In either case, a thorough post-test
            calibration will be done to investigate. If a discrepancy is found, it may be necessary to apply a correction factor to the data before reaching any conclusions. This process may take a week or more, and will be reported in detail when we’re done.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Spoilsport…

            It’s true that this may all be a false signal that we are seeing. If we do not get something exiting at 1250ish I would also be more suspicious of our data. The sudden 600C change could well be some failure of the reactor instead of a real LENR event. For now, I choose to believe that something is happening, just because it’s more fun. I realize we’ll know with more certainty after analysis of the data and the fuel.

          • pelgrim108

            Is there any way to verify the current temperatures, other then the thermocouples now used?

          • LuFong

            Is there a way to read the PID thermocouple and tell if it’s the same or similar to the active heater thermocouple? Can you swap them at the input points?

            How does the empty cell reactor temperature compare to the calibration empty cell reactor for a given input power? Are they close?

          • Ged

            Whatever the explanation, be it physical, chemical, or nuclear, it must fit -all- the facts.

            1) The linear increase of temperatures before 600 C with active less than null and same as control

            2) While holding near 600 C, the abrupt crossover event and increase in active temperatures relative to null

            3) The growth and then small, slow -decay- of this divergence at 600 C, and continued decay at 650 C. That decay very much is not linear and breaks the “behaves nicely” sort of thought.

            4) The sudden change and increase in divergence dwarfing the previous peak starting at 680 C and continuingly increasing since then–but not in a clean smooth fashion but in fits and random fits and starts.

            We need more data, particularly your great idea to slowly step it down by 100s. But no matter what is posited to be the source of the observations, it must fit and explain all we have seen and yet to see. This is absurdly important, not just for understanding this experiment, but most of all for establishing the expected behaviors for -future- experiments of the same sort and if this type of setup is useable for answering these questions.

          • US_Citizen71

            A shift in the fueled side TC due to annealing of the tie wire might explain it.

          • Ged

            Point 2, perhaps, but I don’t see how that can explain 3 and 4.

          • US_Citizen71

            Different expansion rates of the wire due to cooling might make it move ever so slightly. I hope I’m completely off base, but playing the devil’s advocate.

          • Bob Greenyer

            This is a possibility

          • Ged

            That would also have to explain magnitude, too. I don’t see how that can be based on all the previous runs that have been. Even when MFMP changed out the core for stainless steel that one time, the temperature profile pretty much matched exactly the alumina version. So magnitude of behavior as well as the overall break points in behavior must all be explained.

          • Obvious

            Wire moving relative to the cover is my suspicion.
            I could get a 30Β°C difference by moving the TC around in a 2 cm area during one of my tests.

          • Ged

            We really gotta nail this down, particularly if so. That would be major problem and the design would have to be altered substantially.

          • Obvious

            Did Alan reply about the cement holding the TC down or not?

          • Ged

            According to Alan above, yes, they are cemented in place so they can’t move. That takes out that variable at least.

          • Obvious

            OK, how about “emissivity resonance”?. IE: the metals (TC wire and fuel)emit and receive at about the same emissivity spectra, brokered by the alumina somewhat, while the empty side emits at the alumina spectra but the TC receives IR at a TC absorption spectral range. This would be in addition to conductive heat, so it may have an overlapping effect at some temperatures that either cancel, do nothing, or re-enforce. Since alumina is transparent at the wire emission peak, could this be feasible?… or am I reaching too far with that idea?

          • Ged

            Hmm, it’s an interesting idea. The calibration run should have taken care of that wrinkle, but it’s a nifty thought.

            Generally, metal is opaque to all electromagnetic waves with small enough wavelength to hit them (for instance, radio waves are too long and wouldn’t “see” the TC wires as they are too small in diameter), so it would require changes in the physics of the alumina, I guess.

          • Obvious

            I think I killed the idea, mostly, after thinking a bit longer.

          • Ged

            Your brainstorming is always good, and very much needed right now to figure out or write off possibilities. The downsteps should hopefully give us a ton of good data for evaluating this.

          • Obvious

            Is there a chat relay happening still? I lost the earlier one after it timed out.

          • US_Citizen71
          • Obvious

            It does seem like an excessively large difference for the coil moving around, unless it stretched up against the cover and the other did not.
            Alternately, if the TC is not glued down, The TC could stretch slightly, and curl away from the cover a tiny bit. Then it air cools a bit better than the other.

          • Obvious

            From The Kanthal Handbook:
            (Note the roughly 4x wire diameter spacing to begin with.)

          • magicsnd1

            The TC’s are both cemented (with a good product that has worked consistently) and fastened in place prior to gluing with a #30 kanthal wire. A quick visual inspection found nothing out of place. The coil did shift during the fuel loading but didn’t appear to be permanently displaced since the center is embedded in high temperature alumina compound. Whether that movement was enough to create the delta will be explored in the post-test calibration.

          • US_Citizen71

            That settles that question, thanks!

          • Obvious

            That’s for that confirmation.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Honestly, at this moment I’m not that strongly convinced we have witnessed LENR. We have seen some other tests with hopeful tendencies, but most could be explained away.

            First all of your points and many more need to be explained.

            Secondly, for a successful test I would have expected a much bigger temperature differential at 1250C internal temperature. As of yet that did not happen.
            Third, I also find that the excess heat behaves very considerate; no wild jumps or anything which looks suspicious to me.

            Fourth: this test is deviates quite far from the Parkhomov test which hasn’t been successfully replicated yet either, so we still have to consider the possibility that his experiments were not successful either.

            The real test is what the real scientists here have said all along: Analysis of the fuel should give us some answers whether there has been a nuclear event or not.

          • Ged

            A lot will be answered by the bookend calibration run.

            Wild jumps are in the eye of the beholder I think. To me, the delta traces show some pretty wild behavior, depending on the time scale you want. We also don’t know how big the effect should be though, so that’s all up in the air and part of the experiment–we can’t be biased to thinking it must be huge or small or exist at all (little bit of Dr. Seuss).

            The pressure deviates the most, but it also deviates from the past MFMP tests too. I don’t know what is up with that, it is rather fascinating.

          • magicsnd1

            55.6 differential, 341 psi
            Skip

          • Gerard McEk

            Where do you see that?

          • Mike Henderson

            In his garage. πŸ˜‰

          • Mike Henderson

            @magicsnd1:disqus – T inner, T outer, and Pressure (psi) are what we record in the spreadsheet. Can you give us those three on the :15s until you get video back?

          • US_Citizen71

            The heater is one continuous coil with the center pulled apart so only part of one loop makes the cross between the two sides.

          • Obvious

            Yes, but a voltmeter connection at that coil space would answer the coil resistance question, somewhat.

          • US_Citizen71

            That would be nice. Maybe they can grind down the alumina to get to the coil when they are finished.

          • snowvoardphil

            hopefully the experiment won’t finish in a meltdown or the breaking of the coil by degradationoxidation. I think the experiment as given us more than enough data, maybe they should turn it down and have the thing checked before the reactor stops working. Anyway it’s not for me to say, it’s there experiment.

          • Mats002

            MFMP want the crowd (us) to participate, your suggestions are welcomed, but of course they must make the decisions what to do or not. This is Live Open Science – LOS.

          • Obvious

            I suspect, since the first calibration was so close, that there isn’t much difference in the coils really. The coil was wound very precisely on a jig.
            It is more likely, IMO, that the positions of the two coil halves relative to the cover has something to do with what is going on. This is one more good reason to ditch the covers altogether, and build a really good, hotter coil that can make the heat required without any cover.

        • Ged

          Just to remind what the control run looked like as it has been buried under comments: http://www.quantumheat.org/images/GlowStick/GS3/GS3_cal1_30s.jpg

          • Bob Greenyer

            also the inside to outside temp chart

          • artefact

            Bob, what do you think of the run till now?

          • Bob Greenyer

            Nice – but it seams like we are going to have to wait a long time for the pressure to drop, like Padua.

          • Ged

            Plenty of anomalous heat already compared to control or earlier in the 600 C hold. Question now is the source of the anomaly.

            Guess low pressure isn’t so vital? Or maybe it’ll grow as pressure goes down.

          • Obvious

            The active side looks like it has a broader hot zone compared to the null side in the video. Is that a video thing, or a real thing, I wonder.

          • Ged

            Hm? The active side is on the left I believe, thus opposite of that idea?

            Can always look back at part 2/early part 3, at the earlier part of this 600 C hold before the crossover to compare.

          • Bob Greenyer

            active is on left in stream

          • Obvious

            Hmmm. Even more mysterious. I like it.

          • Axil Axil

            One thing to try in a future test is to apply heat using a deep thermal cycle. That process may make the pressure drop faster than a more stright line temperature rise.

          • Nigel Appleton

            Why do you think that, Axil Axil?

          • magicsnd1

            The TCs are intact and comfortable at these temperatures, so there’s no reason to suspect failure. But there are may other possible explanations for the delta between the two, so don’t assume excess heat please. For example, the alloying of Al with Li occurs in the range 700-1000 C and could be exothermic. Or the coil could have shifted from thermal expansion, resulting in greater contact with the alumina cover near the active TC.

            The one behavior we can be sure of is the drop of pressure in discrete steps of 2-3 psi, like the one that just occurred starting at 03:00 UTC. Think about why that is seen.

          • Obvious

            Do you have another TC or IR meter there? Maybe scanning the outside temperature of both sides for temperature imbalances would be wise, if feasible.

          • magicsnd1

            I have a thermal camera but it only reads to 330 C. Short of attaching another TC I don’t have a secondary check. Here is where the Optris camera would be valuable, but it’s in Czech at Bob Greenyer’s place. We’ll do a post-experiment calibration check after the cell is cooled down and the H2 vented.

          • Obvious

            Some of that temperature indicator chalk would be handy right now.

          • Obvious

            If you attenuate the camera view with a filter of some sort, do you think it might give a relative reading? A thin sheet of alumina might work.

          • Agaricus

            Semi-silvered mirror materials of known attenuations are available from lab suppliers, for possible future use as filters.

          • magicsnd1

            52 C difference now. Over 60 since we started…
            Skip

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            That’s a new record! Once we are on 810C, we could hit maybe 80 or 90C differential.

          • Mats002

            Hi Alan, great job! Are you saying that drop in pressure while temp is steady or increasing is an anomaly? Or it is a sign of what? H2 adsorption or nanoparticles forming?

          • Ged

            That one is in this main news post thankfulky. May be useful if Frank is willing to put the control run up there too so it’s all together.

    • builditnow

      I managed to achieve HD using Apple’s browser Safari, but, little if any improvement. Obvious (below) confirmed that Firefox fails when attempting to see the stream in HD.

      Perhaps one way to resolve this issue is to run 4 different streams.
      Thanks everyone.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    So have we reached a maximum temperature differential of 45.87C and is the effect now slowing down again?

    • Andre Blum

      yes, looks like it. I updated the diff graph in the google docs spreadsheet to include the latest values and it is definitely heading south east now.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Thanks. I’m reading this right then.

        • Ged

          Finally leveled off and ready for increase in temps?

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            That would be my guess too. Very curious what will happen to the differential once increase temperature. We may have a working reactor here :).

      • Bob Matulis

        Any possible chemical cause for difference?

        • Ged

          Have to calculate Max chemical energy release if one used every single atom in the charge, and then compare to the total energy difference so far.

          Given the small amount of reactants, it seems unlikely to be chemical now (been hours at this). If it were, it would likely be Al reacting with whatever nitrogen there was.

      • Ged

        And now going back up. I think it is just a small oscillation of a few degrees but otherwise leveled off.

        • Andre Blum

          up again

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Anyone care to speculate if we are seeing excess heat and what caused this (sudden) temperature rise of the active reactor? I’m surprised it happened at 600C.

    • Ged

      Compared to control or even earlier in this run at 600 C: yes, plenty of excess heat. 600 C is just under 1000 C internal, so the low starting range of excess heat production according to Parkhomov.

      Why excess is a different matter.

      • Andre Blum

        Somebody please get the binder with the protocol and read what we should do right now!

        • Bob Greenyer

          haha….

          we should wait till pressure drops below atmospheric according to Parkhomov.

          • Andre Blum

            somebody burn the binder and the protocol!

          • Bob Greenyer

            hahah

          • pelgrim108

            me356 is maybe going to work for a big Russian company MEPA in the field of LENR. things are not yet worked out.

          • Ged

            Well, tis just a work week to wait πŸ˜‰

          • builditnow

            A couple of thoughts:
            1. Rossi may have pre-charged his powder with hydrogen, so, a long wait could be in order.
            2. How much hydrogen could theoretically be absorbed by the nickel, assuming 100% saturation is required as indicated in palladium experiments at SRI.
            3. Approximately where is the experiment being run, if it’s in the San Francisco / San Jose area I could help out.

          • Axil Axil

            Nickel does not absorb hydrogen.

          • Ged

            Yeah, just surface binds. Saturation of those spots may be important.

          • Obvious

            I guess it actually an alloy, nickel hydride.

          • Axil Axil

            The hydrogen gas forms nanoparticles called rydberg matter. This solid form of hydrogen covers the tubercles on the nickel microparticles

          • Ged
          • Ged

            It is kinda semantics.

          • Obvious

            I have wondered how long H would stay in loaded nickel. Maybe that’s a reason to have larger particles, to help keep some in. I imagine it would have to be stored in H gas to keep it for any length of time, but would it catch fire if you exposed it to air?

          • Axil Axil

            The Lagano results showed little or no hydrogen absorbtion.

          • Obvious

            Would be the beam knock the H off? And then it is too low of mass to see with the method.

          • Axil Axil

            Solid hydrogen must be regenerated constantly. These particles have a finite lifetime. This is why Rossi’s reactor uses a deep thermal cycle to produce a new nanoparticles in a regenerative cycle.

          • Jouni

            like pumping the temp ?

          • Axil Axil

            http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1305/1305.3913.pdf

            In the first thrid party test, Rossi used the thremal cycle. See page 25.

          • Bob Greenyer

            This is true. We are cautious to avoid breaking this.

          • Axil Axil

            What does “cautious to avoid breaking this” mean?.

          • pelgrim108

            I have made available for download the chat texts from youtube and LENR forum for the first 15 hours of the Alan Goldwater experiment.
            http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1700-Next-MFMP-GlowStick-replication-experiment-tonight-28th-of-May-GMT/
            (bottom of the page)

          • Bob Greenyer

            Thanks Pilgrim – can you paste these / update into a shared google doc – this may be a very important reference.

          • pelgrim108

            Can you do or somebody else that for me? I have no experiments with google docs.

          • Bob Greenyer

            ok – well – keep me posted – I am out today – but can do later. Thanks for you work in ensuring everyone can follow the comments and that they are captured

          • pelgrim108
          • John Littlemist

            Congrats to MFMP, this looks very promising! It would be interesting to know why this Glowstick experiment now seems to be successfull whereas the previous experiments did not produce excess heat… What was the crucial change in this Glowstick setup compared to the previous ones?

          • Bob Greenyer

            Well – this is the fist one with Parkhomov Ni that is designed to see differential.

            There are still potential systematic questions – only analysis of the ash will give a more definitive answer. We need to keep this running as long as reasonably possible / possible.

          • Sanjeev

            And better LAH too.

          • Snobben

            As spectators without direct knowledge of the subject, I can now only hope that this is enough to convince MFMP themselves about the phenomenon’s existence. When this occurred, the snowball is rolling…

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Interesting. Can it be this reactor starts up in the low temperature range because it’s holding pressure better than previous reactors?

        • Agaricus

          I would go with that. Hydrogen permeation of metals is almost certainly proportional to pressure at any given temperature (but I’m too idle to research this).

    • Obvious

      Rossi was saying around 450 it can start. I don’t know how well this could be compared to his, though.

      • Omega Z

        Rossi has a Lo-temp & Hi-temp E-cat.
        Probably, he can make them to activate at many different levels.
        I note that back when Cures use to post on Cobraf, He indicated that Rossi had 4 or 5 different ways to activate, stimulate & control the Rossi effect.

    • Bob Greenyer

      600C external is around 1000C internal.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Thanks. What you and Zed mention wasn’t clear to me. 1000C is much more in line with how I understand the reaction to occur.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Zed = Ged

  • US_Citizen71

    Is there a new stream? The link from ‘3 continued’ appears to be dead.

    • Ged
      • US_Citizen71

        Thanks!

      • Stephen Taylor

        Ged, probably this has already been noted; the voltage spikes and pressure spikes are sometimes well aligned. There must be some serious temperature fluctuations happening in the core upon power application?

        • Ged

          The scale is very small and auto zoomed in though. Hard to say it isn’t just random noise. But to some extent, more heat would mean more pressure, all else being equal. Absorption lowers bulk pressure slowly, but fast transient heating from the heater pulses would make little quick pressure increases for just that time.

          Again, scale is so zoomed for those two, lots of noise just from measuring.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Yes, I think you are right, the zooming can have me chasing randomness. When they diverge I am supposing it is a spike in hydrogen absorption and probably this is also assignment of cause to random fluctuation. Anyway, the longer we stay in this mode of small but significant excess heat the better to rule out chemical cause. This mode of operation could be very important if it can last a long time

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I’m watching this and it’s up and running:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7T9pa5wjfM

  • snowvoardphil

    Someone estimated the live reactor being 600degC external = 1000 degC internal, What about the fueless reactor 565degC external = ??? degC internal ?

    • Ged

      Take a look at the outside vs. inside temperature chart above in this news post, it’ll give you the answers.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    I’m predicting that this will increase the excess heat.

    Really exited now!

    • Axil Axil

      I predict that the maximum temperature difference has already been reached at 1,24. This difference will gradually decrease over time because no new nanoparticles are being generated.

      There may be a jump in temperature when the reactor goes through the critical temperture on the way down. It will be interesting to watch.

      • Bob Greenyer

        you may be right – let’s see.

      • Ged

        This is a great test for that hypothesis. Exciting time for testing your prediction.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Then there must be multiple stages of nano particle generation; otherwise how could Parkhomov’s reactor reach a much higher output at a higher temperature? The temperature swings won’t be anywhere near the 1000C treshold we’ve been for the past 6 hours.

        • Axil Axil

          It might be due to pressure. Parkhomov had a leak? and the chemistry of nanoparticle production is different between systems based on the pressure of the gas.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            We’ll have to give it a couple of hours at the next level I guess to see where the system will stabilize. So this will be an all-nighter again… I’m really glad this test is running in the weekend.

  • Stephen

    It’s interesting how the pressure variations are less when the temperature is increasing compared to when we kept it at steady state. It follows the temperature very closely now. Is this expected?

  • Bob Greenyer

    Alan will post on Quantum heat site when he is going to bump the temperature

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/home/mfmp-blog/477-glowstick#!new_coil

  • LuFong

    Well things certainly are looking very promising. I haven’t been following this one as closely as the other replications. Can someone summarize what has happened so far?

    For the calibration, were there two fuel cells, one empty and one with something like plain nickel powder? Where are the power versus temperature graphs for these?

    For this run, how have the empty versus fueled cells compare with the calibration runs for a given power input?

    Thanks!

    • Ged

      Control run: http://www.quantumheat.org/images/GlowStick/GS3/GS3_cal1_30s.jpg

      Note, the Null cell is -not- empty, but has an alumina rod as filler to give it a similar thermal mass to the nickel powder and charge on the active side. So it’s the nature of the mass that’s mostly different between sides.

      Summary: During the slow ramp up, the active side was around 7-10 C cooler than the null side, same as in calibration. The pressure got really high, up to 430 PSI or so, and it was decided to let the apparatus sit at an external target (power controlled by PID watching active cell to maintain set temperature) around 600 C. During this time, where it was at 600 C, the active cell was 10 C below the null. Then, unexpectedly and with no warning, the active cell started to increase in temperature, and null cell cooled, causing a crossover of the two temperature lines. This divergence increased to the current 40 C hotter on active side range we have now. This excess heat has been maintained for 6 hours or so–what is the cause of the excess and the crossover will take analysis, and of course LENR is one possibility.

      Right now, they have increased the set point by just 30 C, and the divergence has maintained. It oscillates very slowly, which is fascinating from a reaction dynamics standpoint, and could give some important data for theory building.

      • LuFong

        Thank you very much Ged. So it looks like during the calibration run the empty reactor ran higher the alumina rod filled cell. During this run this was also the case with the empty cell and the fuel cell until the crossover. Very good!

        Do you know where the data is for the calibration. I’m interested in seeing how the empty cell during calibration compares to the empty cell during the fueled run for a given power level.

        Thanks again.

        • Ged

          You’re always welcome. Unfortunately, I don’t know where the raw calibration data is, but I am sure someone around here does :).

          • LuFong

            OK, I’ll look around–I’m just being a little lazy.

    • nietsnie

      Hardware is a single tube, divided into two distinct sections sealed from each other. 1/3 gram of fuel is inserted on left side and stoppered off. Each side has a thermocouple to measure surface temp of tube. Fueled side has pressure sensor inside it as well. Tube is surrounded by resistive wire. Current to resistive wire is software controlled for a desired temp profile over time. Design of the reactor tube and the temp sensors on each side highlights a reaction occurring in the fueled side since the temp in that side will be higher than the side without the fuel.

      For the first 590C or so, the temp on the fueled side lagged behind the un-fueled side by about 10C. Then, the pressure on the fueled side rose, and so did the temp. Software responded by lowering the juice to the resistive wire. This caused the un-fueled side to cool off as the software attempted to keep the temp of the fueled side in-profile. This ultimately resulted in a difference of over 40C between the two sides of the tube, whereas previously there had been a difference of ~-10C. It has maintained a positive differential between the two sides since 8:00 AM California time.

      If I got anything wrong – please, someone, correct me.

      Helpful links:

      Live YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubMekgFXByg

      Spreadsheet (out of date now): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ODbN9Oq6Pjyp9A61hdX0-fBJIXBBKMk7Ei06PzTc-Q/htmlview?pli=1&sle=true#

  • Kristian

    I can probably find this info somewhere in the blogs, but could someone remind me if the “null reactor” has any type of “placebo filling” (to simulate a similar heat capacity as the fueled reactor)?

    • Skip

      Yes. Alumina rod

      • oldrolledgold

        I don’t envy the one filling in the spreadsheet trying to see the figures if it’s from the feed.Good job plus young eyes.

        • Mike Henderson

          I did it for a few hours last night. Not so bad. Show video in 720p full screen. Capture a screenshot on the :15 mark. The three numbers are large at the bottom right corner.

  • Skip

    To answer a few questions below;
    Yes, we are expecting another all nighter
    We intend to target 1250C core temp before stopping
    Assuming nothing breaks, we intend to do another calibration run (bookend)

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Good plan. What kind of external temperature would that represent?

      • Skip

        810C

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Thanks. Will be interesting to see the reactor’s behaviour at that internal temperature. Lately not many reactors have withstood that temperature without catastrophic failure. Hopefully yours is a bit more robust.

    • Ged

      Awesome ideas, particularly the bookend calibration, as I feel that will be very powerful if it can be run (e.g. the device doesn’t burn out). I applaud it all, and wish you continual success.

  • R101

    Fantastic results so far guys, this is a great experiment! That pressure scares me though. Do we know what the vessel can withstand? I suppose it’s failure point changes with temperature.

    • NT

      Pressure has been and is currently steadly dropping…

  • Enrique Ferreyra

    In the video cant see the details, where i can check the chart online?

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    What’s happened with the data aquisition? Something broke down?

    (did you guys fall asleep? πŸ˜‰

    • Ged

      Stream is still going, so good question. I can’t edit the spread sheet myself, but one can always look back in time to fill in the data. Oh, the joys of Youtube.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        They just updated it. Probably wanting to test if anyone was still paying attention…

        • Omega Z

          Paying attention to what?
          What are you talking about?
          πŸ™‚

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Ged and I were looking at the spreadsheet and it wasn’t updated for an interval and the second interval took it’s time too. So I joked that they probably were testing if anyone noticed, just to see if we were still interested. Fell a bit flat probably, but to my defense it’s getting really late here.

          • Omega Z

            Yes, I saw the data gap also, but didn’t have any concern.
            I don’t envy those doing these tests. I would compare it to watching grass grow. If they should have a little lapse in keeping up, I can understand.

            Note my smiley in the other post. Was just kidding.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            As the reactor’s core temperature is rising and the my own Self Sustaining Mode is getting longer, I’ve noticed a direct relation to my IQ dropping. It’s quite linear too, so this is probably my last coherent reply until I’ve had some sleep.

            πŸ™‚

          • Omega Z

            I had an “IQsectomy” so 1 less thing to worry about.
            7:56 pm here in the central U.S.
            Where you at?

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            πŸ™‚
            I’m Dutch, so GMT+2 or 03:00AM (plus a long day at work) in Europe.

          • magicsnd1

            I’ll be doing another temperature step in about 10 minutes, then leave it for the night shift watched over by Skip. The set point will be 680 C, corresponding to about 1100 in the core.

      • ecatworld

        I would help input data, but I can’t read the data on the video.

        • Ged

          In the end, the full Hugnet data set should hopefully be up at least, so then we’ll have all the data we could want.

    • Skip

      Is the clock running in the display? I find it falls off “live” from time to time

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Looks fine to me: 17:14:25 and counting

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Have to sign off here to get some sleep. Had a great time! I do promise all of you that the first thing I will do in the morning is check up on this site to see what has been happening. I do expect a nice big reactor explosion or 1KW excess heat. At a minimum.

          So here’s me wishing you all a great time and hoping for many more (scientifically explainable) miracles to come.

  • magicsnd1

    I’m about to ramp up the temperature about 15 degrees, then hold for a
    while. The target will be 650 C, corresponding to 1040 in the core.

    • Ged

      Thank you for updating here. It is very appreciated. Let’s see what the core can do (resisting using Scotty references).

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Indeed thanks! I think I speak for everyone here when I say how much we all appreciate the great work you guys are doing. I feel privileged to be able to witness this event.

      Having said that, I really don’t know how much longer I can keep up with you guys; it’s getting really early here.

    • ecatworld

      Thanks for keeping us updated here, Alan — we really appreciate all you and Skip have put into this the experiment today. Very interesting!

  • R101

    What do we know about the PID (which I take stands for Power Input Device, please correct me if I wrong)? Is is creating any fancy waveforms etc?

  • Mike Henderson

    The temperature gap between fueled and unfueled reactors has shrunk by 5-8 degrees C in the last hour.

    • Just for kicks, applying pV=nRT ideal gas law points to around 300 billion (hydrogen, presumably) atoms being absorbed per second.

      • Ed Pell

        I think we are loosing about 4E15 per second. I expect only some of those are producing heat.

  • R101

    Temp delta is increasing again. COP is on the rise. Sweet

  • Alain Samoun

    I think that it is more interesting to look at fueled temp, there is maybe some heat coming time to time from the fueled to the empty part depending where the heat is generated in the fueled part. This could explain the sudent rise on the empty we just saw?

  • Dr. Mike

    Bob or Alan,
    Here are a few questions that I posted yesterday that have not yet been answered. If you have time could you answer the following:
    1. With 18 gauge wire having a diameter of about .04 inches, how could a
    0.375″ ID tube fit over a 0.375″ OD tube that was wound with 18 gauge
    wire?
    2. Did a 0.125″ diameter rod actually fit into the 0.125″ ID
    tube? If the fit is really tight will pressure gauge be slow to respond
    to actual pressure changes in the reactor? Also, if the fit is tight, did you account for the thermal expansion of the filler rod and reactor tube when heated to >1000C? (Both should expand by about 0.001 inches.)
    3. The volume to fuel
    ratio is about 2 cm3/gr for the GS3 Glowstick, whereas Parkhomov’s
    reactor was more in the range of 4-5 cm3/gr. Shouldn’t this make the
    base pressure about 2 times what Parkhomov observed? Could this effect
    the results?
    4. What is the power source driving the heater coils?

    I also had a suggestion for future glowstick designs.
    Replace the left side 0.125″ diameter filler rod with a 0.125″ double
    bore tube and add a thermocouple going to the center of the reactor.
    This would require the design of a thermocouple feed through at left end
    of the reactor tube through the fitting.
    Dr. Mike

    • magicsnd1

      @Dr Mike, I did use a double-bore tube with a type K TC for the calibrations, in a Swagelok pass-thru. I didn’t think it would be very useful when coated with molten AlLi alloy in the fueled reactor. I located a source of 1/8″ OD closed end alumina thermowell tubes but was told they wouldn’t withstand the expected pressure.

      Thanks for catching my typo. It’s been a pretty intense week getting ready for this run. The drawing was a quickie yesterday and the QC department missed one.

      • Dr. Mike

        I would have put a tiny bit of of quartz wool separating the fuel from the TC. The TC could be within 1-2 mm of the fuel by using the proper amount of and compression of the quartz wool.
        Dr. Mike

  • Obvious

    New stream again…
    I was thinking once a steady heat was happening for long enough, giving the GS3 a quick flick/bump, might settle the coils and cover, and see if that affects the TC readings. Before it gets too hot to try this.

  • magicsnd1

    PS The cached thumbnail of the drawing on this site will still appear wrong. The file at the link I posted is correct. Click on the thumbnail to open the file.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Just had 45.65ΒΊC separation – nearly the highest nominal

    • artefact

      47.1 now.

      • R101

        Nice!

        • Bob Greenyer

          Is this why they had 2 day averages in Lugano?

    • artefact

      new separation of 50.17 and a (rough) COP of 1.24

  • Bob Greenyer

    The separation trend is still continuing.

    • artefact

      it is a linear trend since some hours. Maybe the pressure drop helps which is also linear.

    • Mats002

      The setup with a dummy and an active reactor in series is good for intuitive understanding not only that heat is produced, but also that this heat is produced over a time that can not have a chemical origin. Many educated people will need to see for themselfes to believe. Then questions about failed temp reads have to be addressed. Can we trust the thermocouples?

      • Bob Greenyer

        I think it is all in the Cake. If we hypothesise at the end of this run that there are good indications that there was excess heat – it is worth having the ash fully analysed.

        If we see transmutations / isotopic shifts that would have resulted in net Mass to Energy – then we can make a more believable statement.

  • Andre Blum

    haha. you’re a long time follower!

  • Nicolas Chauvin

    Congrats Alan !!
    Great achievement !

  • I challenge any chemists to explain these results that we’re witnessing live: a strong exothermic reaction in a small volume that slowly gains strength over the course of many hours.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I’m not a scientist so I can make silly predictions and have unrealistic expectations, but the real scientists probably won’t give us their opinion until the data has been thoroughly analyzed and they are absolutely sure there isn’t some systematic error that’s causing these readings. Happily I don’t have to follow those conventions so I too think we are witnessing the birth of LENR here. We should be way past the chemical explanation point now.

      • Deliberate deception and measurement errors are always on the table. What I want is, assuming these data readings are true, then what could possibly cause them (from a chemical reaction standpoint).

    • Nigel Appleton

      If these results hold up to scrutiny, it’ll be the physicists who’ll be challenged!

      The chemists will just say, “Fine, it’s not chemical energy, nothing to do with us, good luck explaining that lot, tell us when you’ve generated electricity with LENR”!, and go back to their test tubes.

      • The nuke folks will bounce it back to the chemists since they don’t have an explanation either.

        • Mats002

          So the LENR/CF/RE community is on a Journey alone. We must take this the whole way without the other disciplines.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          It’s up to us then to explain it all. I say it’s dark energy since no one has a clue what that is other than it has to exist somehow. So we’re good and nobody can prove otherwise. πŸ˜‰

  • oldrolledgold

    Is there a new feed somewhere?

  • Nigel Appleton

    Yeah, just when it’s getting REALLY interesting……
    We NEED part 6!

  • magicsnd1

    53 C differential, 341.6 psi
    Skip

    • Nigel Appleton

      I’m just wondering…

      Is the ratio of “free” hydrogen to hydrogen dissolved in the molten lithium and aluminium important here?
      Could free hydrogen be in some way inhibitory of LENR?

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      The only way is up… Btw the spreadsheet doesn’t update for me anymore. Anyone else has that problem too?

      • artefact

        because there is no stream at the moment

      • Mike Henderson

        The spreadsheet data is being manually captured every 15 minutes by volunteers. No video, no data.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Yep, got it. Skip mentioned that Alan would restore the live video stream and spreadsheet when he’s back.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Consider the possibility that slowly escaping hydrogen heats up mainly the surface of the tube, while the core remains significantly cooler. To be on the safe side, calorimetry will anyway be required. But as far as I understood it, the purpose of this test is to get first some reproducible effect, which can later be examined with refined methods.

      • Mats002

        I like to side that. With intact coil it is possible to measure any uneven degradation, on the other hand the run need to go long enough for a valid ash analysis, how long is needed?

  • Skip

    54 C differential, 340 psi
    Alan is here to restart stream

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Are the data from the second thermocouple on the active side (PID controller input) recorded? They might be helpful to identify/exclude possible artefacts.

  • Skip

    No, sorry

  • magicsnd1

    The live stream part 6 is now running:
    http://youtu.be/k4Hj40UU9WQ

    • Gerard McEk

      Thanks!

  • pelgrim108

    Test part 6 xxx*youtube*com/watch?v=k4Hj40UU9WQ

  • pelgrim108

    part 6 xxx*youtube*com/watch?v=k4Hj40UU9WQ

  • Mike Henderson

    The video looks like a hugnetlab screen, but I don’t see it available on the website. Is an offline copy running in his lab? Or is it just not public yet?

    • magicsnd1

      @Mike, HUGnetLab is open source, and runs as an Apache server on any Linux computer. The DAQ board for the system is available at a reasonable price from Hunt Utilities Group.

      My HUGnetLab system is running on a small Linux laptop, and streaming data on my WiFi LAN. The data for the broadcast is captured by simply viewing the url of the Apache server in a browser window. That url isn’t public, but I’ll try to make the data available real time on a dedicated web page in future experiments.

      • Sanjeev

        Have you tried increasing the font size in browser window ? Try pressing Control and + key together a few times. This will make the numbers larger and more readable in the video.

        • magicsnd1

          Sanjeev, that works as a basic “zoom in” and makes everything in that window bigger. The legibility problem results from limited resolution in the Youtube video stream, and the detail is much better when directly viewing the Google hangout page. Send me an email from a google account and I’ll get you in the hangout. alan at magicsound dot us

          • Sanjeev

            I see, yes it may go out of the window boundaries in your crop. Thanks for trying it. I’m mostly tracking the spreadsheet, so no problem here.
            Keep going !

      • US_Citizen71

        Internet bandwidth and computing power might become an issue for you if 100+ people connect to it and play with the data. Don’t do it if there is any question of being able to handle the demand as it might crash your data collection ability.

        • Sanjeev

          Good point.
          I recommend feeding the data via plot.ly like me356 did.
          You can set up many plot.ly streams if needed. These can be embeded in one html page. So people will access only a small html page on your server, while streaming the data from plot.ly.
          The issue is that the past data scrolls out of the view and is not stored there. Perhaps someone who is expert in this matter can solve the issue.

          • US_Citizen71

            Ideally mirroring the data over to a cloud server running the HUGnet software and sending it through plot.ly would be the best answer. You would get the best of both worlds and off load the demand to the cloud.

  • US_Citizen71

    This has the details of the construction and a picture of the coil: http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/home/mfmp-blog/477-glowstick#!Cal_710w_720C

  • Mats002

    Thanks, I had forgot that! Time flies when having fun. 11K+ have read that now.

  • Ano Nymous
  • ecatworld

    The active reactor is on the left side.

  • magicsnd1

    I’ll be doing another temperature ramp in a bit, aiming for 1150 C in
    the core. The new set point will be 725 on the Outside Heater active
    data.

    • Mike Henderson

      Fingers crossed, please don’t go POP! I’d really like to see calibration data on the way back down to rule out possible systemic issues.

      • magicsnd1

        At this operating point, the surface loading of the coil is only 5 watts/cm2, and it should last many hundreds of hours. Pushed to reach
        1250 C in the core, the load would be over 10 w/cm2 and the life would drop to tens of hours.

  • Obvious

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiNZL8MDS_s&feature=youtu.be
    active right now… hmm not sure about 6 then, but this is still working
    How do you paste a link to stay a link? This video box was unintended

  • US_Citizen71

    It is too bad that they don’t have the Optimus infrared camera any more. I would love to see what it would be able to see right now.

    • Obvious

      They sort of have it; it’s at Bobs place.

  • Axil Axil

    Since anyone can edit the google speadsheet, I hope anti troll protection of the data is undertaken somehow.

    • Mike Henderson

      Shhh. Don’t give any ideas.

      1) I believe Frank Acland can roll back changes.
      2) I have made an archive backup. Anyone can save a copy.
      3) The worksheet is for entertainment purposes, the “real” data is being stored on Alan’s hugnetlab instance.

      • ecatworld

        Yes, I can restore the document to any previous point.

    • TomR

      Thanks Axil Axil for bringing that up, I am worried that the longer this test is successful the more trolls and worse will show up.

      • Andre Blum

        It’s not a real risk. It’s easy to monitor changes (there is revision history under one of the menus), and data can easily be verified and reconstructed by looking back in the videos.

    • builditnow

      Anyone can copy the spreadsheet to your own secure google drive.
      1. Log in to a google account,
      2. Open the link to the Firax Tech spreadsheet,
      3. File | Make a copy….
      The copy goes to your personal google drive where you control access.
      Initial access to your copy of the spreadsheet is only yourself.
      It is a snapshot only, updates are no longer being made on your copy of the spreadsheet.

      Unfortunately, at some point we likely will have to restrict editing to trusted people.
      This always complicates things.

  • ecatworld

    I gave Rossi a link to the spreadsheet:

    Andrea Rossi
    May 30th, 2015 at 12:00 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Thank you, very interesting. They are making a very good job, as it appears to me.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • deleo77

    Perhaps this has been discussed below, but what peak differential are people looking to see for this to become an indisputable anomalous heat gain. If everyone likes the setup and calibration perhaps 1.1 is enough, but there always has to be some accounting for measurement errors. I think what we are seeing here this could be a big event because it is live streamed for everyone to see, and MFMP may be able to reproduce this.

    • Mike Henderson

      We are there already. A previous calibration run showed that an increase of 60 W of input current increased the outer temp of the reactor by about 30 deg C. We are seeing a temp increase of about 60 deg C now in the fueled reactor with no change in input power vs the control. Alan’s reactor is getting the heat of a 120 W incandescent bulb from only 0.3 gm of fuel. It has been giving off 60 – 120 W continuously for a day. That’s a lot of energy, and .3 gm is a pretty small amount, far less than a teaspoon full.

      • Mats002

        Down below in this thread tobalt says: If you see 10 watts excess for more than a day I would say there is no way to argue that it is chemical. shorter at higher excess obviously.

        • Obvious

          If a tube filled with a null metal mix (maybe nickel and lithium aluminate?) does not exhibit a similar behavior, then there is something possibly.

      • Ed Pell

        The weight of LiAlH4 is 0.03g an even smaller amount of fuel.

    • For me it’s not that simple. Measurement error or bad assumptions could be a cause of the difference in temperature readings (though I doubt it). Instead I am looking at the overall behavior. The ability of this device to keep the reactor core at a constant temperature while gradually requiring less and less power (voltage) indicates a source of heat in the core gradually growing in amplitude even while pressure slowly drops.

      Careful post-experiment analysis is required to conclude anything about overall power in versus power out. And of course the analysis of the ash will be potentially critical. If it shows only chemical changes then we have some mundane mysteries about experimental setup to ponder. If it shows nuclear events then ballgame over. MFMP will publish the recipe and kits and say prove us wrong.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    MFMP: One option what to do next: you could slowly try to introduce some infrared reflectors symmetrically around both reactors. That should increase the COP and at the same time give confidence that the effect is real. The PID controller should automatically be able to reduce the input power if one reduces the cooling efficiency by reflectors, but the anomalous power should remain constant.

    • While an interesting idea I wouldn’t do anything at this point to complicate or muddy the post experiment analysis. This is potentially a watershed event. Keep it simple.

      • Ged

        And then do a post run bookend calibration to verify no physical changes and remove them from the signal data. That would vastly increase the strength of the results.

        • Ano Nymous

          Post calibration with this setup might have residual fuel embeded in the alumina that could make it look like it was running hotter than expected. You would need a design with the fuel contained in an interior cell similar to the China experiment to do a post-run calibration. It would complicate things quite a bit, since the pressure sensor would have to be on the interior cell, and the cell would need to be able to withstand the pressure, so it would reduce the volume available for fuel

          Per Alan in the chat, the reactor has to be cut open to retrieve the ash anyways, so its kind of a moot point.

          • Ged

            I’m not too worried. A good vacuum flush and then atmosphere kill with argon or nitrogen gas would, at the very least, reduce residual activity well below full activity. That unknown will still be there if it does run hot, you are completely right, but I bet it’ll be fine, and still a good run regardless.

  • magicsnd1

    The PID controller uses a solid state relay to control the load. It’s an on/off device, and the proportional control comes from varying the ratio of on/off time. The pulsation in the video is just visible light from the heater coil shining through the translucent alumina coil covers. The temperature of the reactor is much more stable because the pulsations are smoothed out by the 12 second thermal time constant of the inner tube.

  • magicsnd1

    I’m planning to do a post-test calibration with minimum disturbance of the reactor. It won’t be possible to remove the fuel, but I will vent the hydrogen after cooling, and pump the cell down to vacuum to unload absorbed hydrogen from the fuel. Then I’ll release the vacuum and run the same linear ramp used for the pre-test calibration. This should reveal any changes in the thermocouples, but the fuel might still be active even after vacuum deloading.

    Suggestions for other ways to validate the data will be appreciated.

    • Axil Axil

      There may be reactive solids formed in the fueled reactor that cannot be cleared as gas. One segestion is to load argon or nitrogen in the fueled reactor to kill any latent reaction modes.

      • Ged

        Nitrogen is a very good idea.

        • Alain Samoun

          What is the length occupied by the fuel in the active cell? and where is it in the cell? Can I find that somewhere?

      • US_Citizen71

        Would that change the ash in any significant way?

    • Ged

      If an lenr killing gas could be pumped in instead that could work to make sure the core doesn’t reignite if it has been. Argon? If not, vacuum may be enough.

      In any case, brilliant idea and strongly supported.

    • timycelyn

      Would there be a residual worry that the physical interference required to remove the fitting from one end (to pump it out etc) might in and of itself further disturb the thermocouples, thereby confusing or invalidating the comparison that you are trying to make?

      • Ged

        They are cemented down, and that is far from them, so I wouldn’t buy that.

        • Obvious

          I thought they were just tied on.

          • Ged

            Maybe? I thought I remembered Alan saying something about cement, hence them being stablely anchored between control and run. Could be wrong though. Regardless, it needs to be done and relative levels of such error are too low–we can’t be afraid of every last thing and not get the data.

          • Obvious

            The coil and the outer tubes at the split are cemented. Clarification on the TC’s would be good. In the earlier videos, when it wasn’t so glowy, you can see something wrapped around the outer tubes.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Just 24 people watching the live stream what could be an historic event right now.

          • Ged

            I see 66 watching on youtube. That seems to be the usual number.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            You’re right. I was looking at the chat, not the live stream.

          • Mats002

            My smartphone is not optimal for that videostream so at least one regular customer is missing. The google spreadsheet works well though.

          • pelgrim108

            The birth of open source LENR

          • LuFong

            I’m back at my desktop and the resolution is still not very good.

          • James Thomas

            Ya, same here….but then I started celebrating early, and everything looks a bit askew πŸ˜‰

          • Brent Buckner

            I don’t watch the live stream, I just look at the spreadsheet updates and read comments here; perhaps a lot of others are following along similarly.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    I think the plan is still this: “We intend to target 1250C core temp before stopping”.
    That’s when the outer temperature of the reactor is 810C.

    What’s the expectation on reaching those temperatures? Full blown LENR+?

  • Bob Greenyer

    Hi Robert, – please note that it is around 1150ΒΊC internal at the moment – this from the calibrations.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Alan is planning to take this up to 1200+ C internal temp soon – for around 2 hours. If the excess is under something spectacular – the focus then will be on testing to see if the excess is real and/or looking for HAD, in both cases – by dialling the power down.

    • Ged

      It is exciting, particularly since we have a good control run to compare, and the event ignited in the supposed “hot LENR” ignition range.

    • US_Citizen71

      Is the plan to drop the temperature below the threshold to something like 550C and see if the the delta reverses and then heat to above 600C again?

      • Ged

        It’s an interesting idea. Threshold of activation may not be the same as threshold of sustaining, though.

      • Bob Greenyer

        it is under discussion

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I like that plan. If we don’t get something spectacular at 1200C after 2 hours, then it I don’t think it will happen anyway. Better to safe the reactor and try to get other LENR proof like HAD.

      That said, I do expect lift off at 1200+C…

      • Ged

        I thought we already had lift off with the crossover; getting greedy are we ;)?

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Oh yes, we want it all, we want it now!

    • Mike Henderson

      My wish list:
      1) Step temp down in 100 degree increments. If Delta T goes away above 450 degrees or so (outside) then the two sides of the cell still match. Delta T at higher temp was real.

      2) Repeat with same cell. Does it reignite?

      3) Repeat with insulation. Does input power requirement decrease?

      4) Run for longevity.

      5) Isotope analysis.

      • Sanjeev

        For now I would really like to see the point #1 done first. If it shows a reverse crossover, any doubts about the TC shift etc will be gone.
        Probably this should be done before reaching dangerous temp ?
        You can go to danger zone after this confirmation (which is your # 2).

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    I hope all security measures are in place. We are taking the reactor near it’s limit and I wouldn’t want to spoil our fun with a serious accident.

    • Andre Blum

      True. Also, there should be value in keeping the reactor intact. I’d love to see this cooled down, then warmed up again. Parkhomov saw that it was still active. Is the temperature difference still there? if so: right from the start, or starting again at 600? Or is the move from below 600 to above important, and can we actually expand the effect by repeatedly crossing that threshold?

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        As I understand it, this is a different reactor from the one Parkhomov used. His was more leaky then this one. So it could behave quite different from Parkhomov’s. That said, I hope we get a big effect at the 1225/1250C point, where we are just about now. If that doesn’t work, I think they should turn of the input and just see if there is any HAD. After that, we could cycle up and down through the 600C barrier and see if Axil Axil his theory works and improves the reaction. Exiting times!

  • Sanjeev

    600C is about 1000C internal temperature.

  • Ged

    Hm. Null side dipping under 700, and also a nice drop in pressure for a moment. Maybe it should sit longer?

    • Skip

      Yes, currently in “Hold”

    • Rigel

      Ged, how are you viewing the data? I am trying to use FF or Chrome and going to youtube (and here).I am looking at the spreadsheet (here e-w) and sometimes on lenr-forum. Since no one has mentioned video problems I assume its that I am out of the loop on the fix.The spreadsheet that see is line 1380. Current time is 9:09 UTC. Any advise is appreciated from anyone in the thread. I want to see this great day. But if I cannot please keep the thread updated ! Thanks

      • US_Citizen71

        Refresh this page or the spreadsheet and the values will update.

  • Bob Matulis

    Great question. I propose at a later test have two blank cores but include an additional small heater in one. Get every thing to equilibrium at say 600C then raise the temp of the one. The effects on the temp of the other could be measured and a correlation determined.

  • Bob Greenyer

    As he’s been said by us throughout this experiment – we need to be careful about jumping to conclusions – tempting to do so, but we need to check this is not an artefact first.

    • Dr. Mike

      Bob,
      I totally agree! During the calibration run, was a plot made of input power verses temperature where I guess it can be assumed that 1/2 of the power is going to each half of the reactor? Also, are the heater coils being driven by a chopped ac sine wave?
      Dr. Mike

      • Bob Greenyer

        Alans experiment is bursts of TC relative, PID driven full sine wave from a variac.

        PID duty cycle is about currently 80% on. 20% off to save pushing more than 103 V

  • magicsnd1

    In about 5 minutes I’ll ramp up to 810 C and hold it there for one
    hour. After that I’ll reduce the set point in steps of 100 C and hold
    long enough at each to get stable readings.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Is there a HAD test planned and if so, how would you test be executed?

      • Bob Greenyer

        well – we might see something in the step downs.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Could you do one step where the power is switched of completely or does that not make sense?

          • Bob Greenyer

            we need to understand if a systematic change caused the differential.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    On the livestream they noticed a big change in light at the left reactor site. Is something changed in the lightning or does the reactor do something weird?

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Also a big change in reactor temp as you can see in the spreadsheet. Is something happening???

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        That one may not turn out to be true. Looking at the big change it turns out not to be so big. The jump in temperature is more in line with the other increases of input power.

    • US_Citizen71

      I assume the white light is reflected infrared in the right wavelength to appear as visible on the webcam.

    • Axil Axil

      Is the cyclic pulsation of light from both reactors what you are seeing?

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        No, I see the left side of the (active) reactor throw a white light on the wall. The right side is throwing a reddish light on the wall. It is suggested that the webcam is autocorrecting the image and causing this.

        I looked back on the livestream and the lightning changed quite fast so it’s still a bit strange.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Alan did an adjustment which explains it:
          “Yes, I adjusted the small work light to read the ammeter better The coil is now at 9.11 ohms, 11.3 amps at 103 volts, right around 1000 watts input assuming 90% duty cycle from the PID.”

      • US_Citizen71

        This what he is seeing.

        • Bob Greenyer

          When the coils are energised with the FULL SINE WAVE ac bursts controlled by the PID from the variac – the surface of the Kanthal emits light as far as the web camera is concerned – but the temperature doesn’t actually vary as much as the “light” does.

    • Ged

      Got your wish for 80 C difference ;).

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        You remembered!

        We’re getting there… πŸ™‚

        Thanks to some sober scientists we now have to put a disclaimer on everything: “results could be positive or negative”.

        • US_Citizen71

          I forgot its not the LENR world championship game! LOL :-)-~

        • Bob Greenyer

          and we are not paid to say that!

          • Ged

            Haha.

        • builditnow

          OK, then I’ll say it for free…. “results could be positive or negative” … with a follow on statement …
          “don’t get your nickers in a twist just yet” and
          “panting at your screen will not increase the temperature” and
          “your blood pressure will not influence the hydrogen pressure”.

          Now you are free to go sing and dance in the streets. πŸ™‚

  • magicsnd1

    I adjusted the work light to read the ammeter better. The heater coil is now at 9.11 ohms, 11.3 amps at 103 volts, right around 1000 watts input assuming 90% duty cycle from the PID.

    • Mike Henderson

      … and how does that compare to the calibration run at the same temp?

      • magicsnd1

        It was 9.07 ohms in the calibration. The coil has now been running much longer and has probably aged some as a result.

        • Mike Henderson

          So is this statement correct: “When comparing the experimental run to the calibration run, we are not seeing a significant decrease in the electric power input required to hold the current temperature.”?

          • Ged

            That’s a very big and important question.

          • magicsnd1

            We haven’t done that comparison Mike. Accurate power calculation will be done post-test and then the comparison will be made.

        • Mats002

          Hope it aged the same on both sides.

  • LuFong

    Is there any thoughts about why the pressure is still very high? As far as I know it’s not behaving anything at all like Parkhomov’s experiments.

    • Bob Greenyer

      less dead volume for one.

      Most likely Parkhomovs cell leaked.

      • Mike Henderson

        Didn’t Parkhomov seal with epoxy? I suppose it may have acted as a “getter” to remove oxygen or nitrogen, especially if it wasn’t fully cured.

        • Bob Greenyer

          We are considering using ZrAl getter in future runs.

      • Freethinker

        Do you have 100 % confirm on leakage in Parkhomov’s experiments ?Also, with leakage , how can be explained the sub normal pressure in his measurements? A leakage would typically show ambient pressure,1bar.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Hydrogen is small and leaks. Air, not so much.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Yes

      • glenn Thompson

        I think the most likely reason was just a much larger dead volume. Those large old mechanical pressure gauges have a lot of internal volume to move the gauge. This is all in a low temp region.

      • LuFong

        Just to point out in the new report by Songsheng Jiang

        “In the first day, the reaction chamber was vacuumed to 10^-4 mbar, and then was heated up. The LiAlH4 was degassed, and the upper pressure in the chamber reached 400 kPa at temperatures of 150-300C or so. Then the pressure went down to -90 kPa in subsequent 18-hours.”

        which is similar to Parkomov’s at least in basic behavior. Just more data to chew on.

    • Freethinker

      I too ask that question. Does it mean that the loading of hydrogen into the Ni lattice has not been complete?

    • Stephen Taylor

      Tighter reactor, different materials, hydrogen absorption and depletion may be observed.

    • Ged

      This is also different than MFMP’s past swagelok’d experiments. This is infact the first time we’ve seen pressure resist going down so much.

      • magicsnd1

        In the GS2 test, pressure was still at 200 psi at the end of the test. That test was only 18 hours, but reached similar temperatures.

        • Ged

          Yeah, a vastly faster decrease, as well as that double pressure hump, if I remember.

  • Ged
    • Ged

      Nevermind, fixed πŸ˜‰

      • magicsnd1

        Sorry for that. I was setting up the new feed and got distracted.

        • Ged

          All part of the fun!

        • snowvoardphil

          It’s going to be nice to see if HeatAfter Death is going to show up when the reactor gives out.

        • Mike Henderson

          JEEZUS AITCH GRIPES. No drama all day long. I step away to get dinner ready. And WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT?!?!!

          • Ged

            Alan is working on getting the PID set up to do the down steps and all the juicy data they could provide, and I think the PID’s settings got bumped a bit in the process.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Nice delta. T…or tea as it were.

    • deleo77

      80+ when does this become referred to as an LENR Event?

      • Obvious

        When it is measured Watts, not temperature.

        • Bob Greenyer

          When there are isotopic or elemental changes in the ash relative to the fuel.

          • Obvious

            Or that.
            I would be happier if the temperatures would un-couple.

  • Obvious

    That was a neat bump.

    • Skip

      Alan is now programming the PID for 7 steps of cool down

      • Bob Greenyer

        but but – the bump!

        • Ged

          We must resist the sweet siren song! I think this has bumped it above the calibration too, running really hot on the active side now.

          • Should be about 1320 C interior, extrapolating and eyeballing the calibration curve. Whoa.

        • Obvious

          delta T sticking like glue… even if the gap increases slightly with increased final temperature.

  • US_Citizen71

    92C Delta

    • Ged

      I’m starting to worry the heater could fry if it stays like this for much longer. Don’t want to lose the chance to do the bookend calibration run.

      • Obvious

        Sadly, I think you may be right.
        “He who fights and runs away, may live to fight another day”

  • Dr. Mike

    Tim,
    Rossi used the reports as support for his patent application; however, the reports were not sufficient for the patent examiner.
    Dr. Mike

  • Ged

    Almost 100 C difference right now on the downward step. Interestingly enough. Should these steps be a little longer to allow equilibration? Or are we even doing the steps yet, and these little down bumps are just the setup prior to?

    Edit: Nevermind, I have no idea what is going on anymore, hah.

  • Obvious

    Dropping pretty fast. Don’t crack that tube!

    • Ged

      Did it just get killed? πŸ™

      • Obvious

        Don’t think so. But that is one good way to do it.

    • US_Citizen71

      null hotter than fueled now

      • Ged

        The “Anti-crossover” happened about 200 C, and the difference between has remained the same since (about 2C lower on active).

        • Sanjeev

          It seems it did cross over back to negative difference, but the difference is tiny.
          Clearly no HAD.
          Perhaps it needs to be reheated for a quick check up in coming week.
          Meanwhile let it eat the remaining H2 πŸ™‚

          • Ged

            I would like that, but I think trying to kill the fuel by vacuum or nitrogen/argon gas and doing the bookend calibration should be the top priority next. That’s just my opinion though. Could always refill it with hydrogen and try to run it up to 600 C again to see if the same crossover event occurs while holding there after a time. Otherwise, they have to destroy the reactor to get the fuel for the isotope analysis.

  • penswrite

    To quote Alan, from the you-tube chat:
    “Sorry everyone, the PID controller won’t let me do a backwards ramp, so we’re getting a HAD shutdown. We’ll check those set points during the post calibration.”

    • Ged

      Man, too bad, that would have been interesting. Looks like the two sides have converged at around 300 C on the death curve.

      • Indicates nothing terribly wrong with the thermocouples on the active reactors.

        • Ged

          Very good point. Dredlig notes on the Google doc that the temps between the two converge much faster after around 600 C on the death curve.

  • magicsnd1

    Sorry everyone, the PID controller won’t let me do a backwards ramp, so we’re getting a HAD shutdown. We’ll check those set points during the post calibration.

    It’s been a great run, over 48 hours continuous. I want to thank everyone who provided support: MFMP members and volunteers who worked so hard on the spreadsheet, and all the watchers whose comments helped keep us awake during the long hours. And Frank Acland for providing this great forum.

    Alan and Skip

    • Ged

      And thank you guys for all the time, effort, resources, and putting up with us you’ve done in producing another great experiment.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      We had a really good time. Anytime you want to repeat the journey, I’m on board! Thanks for the great effort!

      • R101

        As the above comments. Great job guys! Thanks for sharing this with the world too!

      • LuFong

        At this point (and up to 330C) you can use your thermal camara to correlate with the TCs…

      • Curbina

        So, did we observe some HAD? or not?

        • Ged

          Not majorly, no. If there was a small bit (as the curve seems to inflect a little passing by 600 C) it will require fitting to an exponential decay curve, particularly one built by root mean square from the null. That would allow actual quantitation (and allow statistics) on if there was a small amount of HAD near the start of the descent.

          Edit: Until that or something like it is done, definitely can’t say yes but can’t quantitatively say no either.

    • Sanjeev

      Thanks Alan and Skip. This was the best experiment ever by MFMP.

      • Ged

        Really was. Brilliant and beautiful internally controlled design and pre-run calibration. Everything we wanted to see.

    • pelgrim108

      Thanks Alan and Skip, great experiment, also thanks to Justa Guy for relaying with the chat and all the guys doing the spreadsheet work.

  • penswrite

    Many thanks, Alan and Skip and others at MFMP. Cheers!

  • Stephen Taylor

    Great design. Thanks for all your hard work.

  • Ged

    And thank you to whomever is updating the Google Doc with the post shut down temps. Very interesting and great data, and a lot to grab in such short time. Great work by all our Doc maintainers and analyzers.

    • R101

      Yeah, someone here knows XL well. I saw the after temp readings in one column and then that got broken into two columns with a couple of clicks πŸ™‚

  • R101

    After the TC calibration checks, and if you fire it again, maybe try swapping the TC channels around. Hopefully then, the abnormally won’t follow the TC over.

    • Sanjeev

      Thats a good way to check the boards.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Movining the scintillator head in now – some of the potential intermediaries have half lives of 4 seconds – so best time is ASAP. reset count after

    • R101

      Had to lookup “scintillator ” πŸ™‚

    • Ged

      Good idea, Bob. Good luck, and interested to see if anything or not is noticed. Those are very short half lives though, if they are there, and if their emissions escape alumina (e.g. beta might not).

  • R101

    Hmm that Spectrometer trace looks different now.

    • Bob Greenyer

      well, it was re-set after being moved closer – it will be good to let it count for a long time, then take out a similar time count on background.

      • R101

        Ah, that makes sense.

      • Ged

        I am definitely interested in seeing that spectrometer’s data over time, particularly the 511 KeV line (which seemed like a small hill at times), and that compared to running it during calibration to control for affects of looking at a hot reactor.

        • Bob Greenyer

          I agree – I was getting a wishful-thinking on the 511keV area – will need to take out the background and see!

          • Bob Greenyer

            Hey – check out the accumulation – right now it looks like a little bit of a denser cluster around 511keV

          • Ged

            Hmm, the Y-axis is counts per minute (cpm)?

          • Bob Greenyer

            cumulative counts – log

          • Ged

            And yeah, I do see that tight grouping. Interesting.

          • Ged

            I went and looked up some images for the UCS30 gamma spectrometer. From what I saw from certain sources, like Co60, it seems the 511 KeV annihilation peak is usually very short and broad, and looked exactly like what I remember seeing during the run in terms of shape and location. Definitely even more interested in seeing that data background and calibration run corrected to see if that peak persists.

  • William D. Fleming

    It’s been an exciting day! Thanks to everyone involved.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Something to chew over during the sunday roast!

  • Alain Samoun

    Thanks to everybody especially Alan and Skip + MFMP, without forgetting our host Frank! Good work guys!

    • Mike Henderson

      Alan, Skip, Bob(s), Frank, Denis, me356, Parkhomov, Rossi, the Elforsk team, Piantelli, Brian(s), and so many, many others. Thank you. You will save the planet.

  • Mike Henderson

    IMHO, there was no HAD to speak of. Both sides cooled at about the same rate.

    • Ged

      Definitely nothing major. Can fit it to an exponential decay curve to see if there was anything minor.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I agree, which in my mind also casts a big doubt over the whole excess energy we’ve been seeing. I would have expected HAD from an up and running reactor.

      We’ll just have to be patient and wait for the analysis…

      • Ged

        Parkhomov has only seen HAD that once, I believe. And I don’t remember Rossi saying anything about HAD other than when put into self sustained mode–but getting to that mode has been a mystery that seems it requires some sort of RF play to achieve.

        So I dunno, perhaps one shouldn’t expect HAD, and in this mode it’s just working as an energy multiplier but without any self sustaining.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          You make a good point, Ged. I don’t know enough about Self Sustaining Mode (which I guess HAD is) and the conditions that have to exist for it to occur, so maybe I shouldn’t focus too much on HAD.

          It’s just that I expected the reactor to take off at 1250C and also HAD as LENR typical events for this type of test.

          What I learned instead is that I should not mirror the outcome of one type of test (Parkhomov) with another “sort of” equal test as long as I don’t know the full spectrum of parameters involved. As I said: you make a good point.

          • Bob Greenyer

            intuitively – self sustaining would require at least as much heat / triggering radiation than is lost in order to sustain the cycle.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Thanks everyone for making suggestions, your support of the team in Santa Cruz, especially those keeping the spreadsheet up to date and the bounce/chat feed running – a real team effort.

    A REAL BIG UP to Alan and Skip! Thanks Guys.

    We’re lighting the New Fire together!

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Hear hear!

      And should it turn out this time the New Fire didn’t light, I’m sure we’ll get it to light next time. Or the time after that; LENR is a hard woman to conquer but someday we will πŸ˜‰

    • Stephen

      It’s been great! This is even better than whatching pioneer and voyager get to the outer planets when I was a lad.

      I had to hit the sack here in Holand just before the excitement started at the end but i couldn’t help but keep half an eye on it via my phone on and off during the night:). Many thanks to every one especially MFMP and also for the great work by the contributors here on this site.

  • pelgrim108

    Most of the youtube chat and most of the LENR forum chat can be downloaded here:
    http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1700-Next-MFMP-GlowStick-replication-experiment-tonight-28th-of-May-GMT/
    Also there is a editable google docs with the youtube chat here:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/11zRdx6rHo92ts2t0EmpfW-xXV9cjScyU5zhTdbTIQsA/edit

    • Bob Greenyer

      Thank you so much for conducting this valuable work.

  • Ged

    When we think about HAD, we also have to remember relative magnitudes. For a very loose thought experiment example, let’s say we take from the highest COP range of 1.3. We could at most be getting 30% of the energy heating the reactor as coming from the reaction, and the other 70% pushing the reactor to, say, 800 C is coming from the heater wires.

    So what happens when you cut power? Now all that is heating the cell is that 30% from the reaction, would that 30% power be enough to bring or sustain a reactor at 800 C? Never, of course. That amount would only allow several hundred C lower temps (e.g. say, 240 C), so the reactor will start cooling immediately. and if that cooling also dims and then kills the reaction, then there will be an inflection. What would be seen in the data, then, is the trace starts dropping upon heater switch off, but at a slower rate than it otherwise would (a different exponential decay function, as if the “room temp” end point was higher by the amount the reaction was providing, and this point would be lowering as reaction efficiency decreased, making it a constantly moving target), until the reaction cooled enough it completely died, and then there would be a faster temperature drop rate back to the natural exponential decay curve that is dependent on the room temperature “floor”.

    But we will never see the temps just hang out fine and dandy for awhile; not without some really good insulation or a really strong reaction that can keep the temperature “floor” closer and kick itself into self sustained mode at that “floor”.

    So, I wouldn’t be surprised if at a small COP of just 1.3, a hypothetical reaction did not show much if anything by the way of HAD, unless serious curve modeling is done. I don’t think we should be looking at HAD for testing the null hypothesis here, due to that insensitivity versus other metrics. But, I could be totally mistaken.

    • Ano Nymous

      Brings up the question, in a larger reactor holding a larger amount of fuel, would the sintered mass of nickel have an insulating effect (trapped hydrogen?) sufficient to maintain a reaction at the center of the fuel. Maybe there just isn’t enough fuel volume to support HAD.

    • Bob Greenyer

      You make a very clear and reasoned argument. This clarity of understanding is also what is driving several researchers like Bob Higgins and Brian Albiston to think about surface area to volume ratios – if heat and energetic/ionising (potentially triggering) radiation can leave by the surface of the fuel – if that surface is too large relative to the mass of the fuel – the ability to self sustain or even be active is curtailed.

      This is a very good area to study – it is why our next generation of *GlowStick* will have a larger internal diameter.

      • Stephen

        Good point. I wonder if EM strength is important for SSM and if the EM varies with the different gauge wire used in the tests for given temperatures. It seems 600 degrees may have been the critical temperature for excess heat. I guess these are is all tuning issues which will be overcome in time.

        • Bob Greenyer

          well – 600ΒΊC external is around 1000ΒΊC internal

      • Nigel Appleton

        A really good experiment – thanks guys!

        If nothing else, it has IMO at least validated the reactor design wrt hydrogen leakage and heating coil longevity; which in turn opens the door to testing different power regimes and fuel composition.

        A question – is it possible for different thermocouples of the same K-type to exhibit different response slopes to temperature?

        • Bob Greenyer

          K-types are very well understood and affordable. The whole experiment was in their operating range.

          A post test calibration will be done.

          In addition – a test with both TCs on a joule heater might be useful.

          The next *GlowStick* generation will have a lower fuel area to volume ratio.

          • Stephen

            I wouldn’t want to make it too complex but I wonder if it would help to have a second or third redundant thermocouple on each side. It could give confidence in the values if both show same. If one fails then the other may still remain usable. If spaced they may give thermal flow information. If three on each side voting could be used if one was showing bad results.

          • Bob Greenyer

            this is a good idea.

          • Alain Samoun

            You mean, for the same amount of fuel: A bigger ID tubing and a lower length occupied by the fuel in the tube(cell)?
            Was the fuel filling the active cell in this test?

        • Gerard McEk

          When looking to the glow (part 7 1.01-1.03 hrs) while cooling down, it seems to me that the empty reactor glows longer than the fuelled. Can it be that because right hand (’empty’) reactor contains an Aluminia rod and therefore has more mass?
          Further: When the voltage (brown line) is turned down after the highest temperature, there seems to be a delay in temperature response, After that the temperature showed no delay. HAD?

          • Obvious

            Apparently the left side was the empty one.

          • Omega Z

            Yep, That is one of a couple issues.
            This should have been done with 2 separate, but Identical reactors.
            Both should have contained Nickel. The active device having the Lithium hydrate being the only difference.

  • R101

    Alan might want to close that Team Viewer window πŸ˜‰

    • Bob Greenyer

      er – yes… and re-issue a code

      • Ged

        Some curve fits would definitely suss that out nicely. The full data should give us a better view of that strange happening too. I haven’t looked too closely at that point cause of all the bumping going on and chaos, but there could be a lot of good data hidden in it as you suggest.

  • Enrique Ferreyra

    Congratz to the MFMP team, awesome job, awesome attitude, keep it coming!

  • Axil Axil

    It seems ill advised to destroy a perfectly working and sucessful reactor. Most of these reactors explode or the heaters breakdown. I would think it is advisable to run this reactor using a test plan that takes advantage of its pristine and undamaged condition. MFMP can alway break it down to look at its innards at some latter juncture. Run more tests with this reactor.

    • timycelyn

      …… and the longer it is run, the more prononced will be the isotopic or elemental shifts on analysis when it is finally dissected….

  • Skip

    Thanx for all your positive comments, folks. It’s been fun for us too, even with the odd and long hours.
    Tomorrow Alan and I are going for a motorcycle ride, (our other common interest) to Alice’s Restaurant. When we get back, we’ll upload the data and maybe start to prepare for the bookend calibration run.

    • ecatworld

      Thanks to you and Alan, Skip. You did a great job of running the experiment and keeping us all informed. Very interesting and worthwhile test!

    • Bob Greenyer

      Enjoy the ride – you fully deserve it!

    • Gerard McEk

      Thanks Alan and Skip for your hard work. I have enjoyed the show. I look forward to your analysis of the collected data.

  • timycelyn

    One other interesting point – after power off in the final cooling, below 200C, the experiment once again slowly becomes cooler than the control. On the way up this was a more definite offset around -8C, but at 150C on the way down it has restablished itself at around -2C.

    Tends to point away from mechanical movement within the device changing something, which was one of the worries on the way up when things kicked off….

    • timycelyn

      Another comment on ‘the morning after’ looking over the data again is that when the temperatures of control and experiment reversed at 600C on the way up, it wasn’t that fast – it was a process that took around 30 min or a little more, and allowing for the scatter in the data caused by the temperature controller cycling, quite smooth.

      Again, this is not easily explained by coil shifting or thermocouple moving hypothesese. By definition, anything mechical is more likely to be abrupt, wheras anything chemical or atomic is more lilely to have a slower, smooth characteristic; ie any explanation not requiring mechanical movement.

  • Bob Greenyer

    If real, it could be higher because of the way heat generated from the core will “look” different to heat generated from the heater according to David Roberson.

    The power was shut off deliberately because Alan could not program the steps down in the PID.

  • Gerard McEk

    James, I believe it is up to MFMP to decide whether or not excess heat was generated. I must admit that it looks like that, but I think we need more evidence, like the power values, comparison with bur-in tests etc. I think we should leave it to Alan end Skip (after their motor trip) to do that analysis and I look very much forward seeing it.

  • timycelyn

    rats123
    “…………. A 10% delta T is still within the bounds of measurement errors.”

    Well, yes and no. In the abstract, this statement is a quite reasonable one in the right situation.

    However, I really struggle with this here. I’ve commented above, but to summarise i’d say: bloody strange error! Somethinng that smoothly cuts in unde a steady state condition to smoothly change an output parameter by 10% over a failrly long period of time…..

    Not saying it isn’t an error – time will tell – just that I’ve not seen an explanation yet that fits the facts yet.

  • Mike Henderson

    I have set protection (locked) two of the tabs in the Google Sheets workbook that was used to manually collect and display data in Alan & Skips test this weekend. A small group of users can unlock it including myself and Frank Acland. Let us know if you need it unlocked. It is viewable and I have save my own copy for backup purposes.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Thanks Mike.

      I would like edit access. Please send me a mail via [email protected]

      • Mike Henderson

        Done.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Thanks!

    • Mike Henderson

      Anyone else with a good reason for edit access:

      Please send me an email at mjhenderson(dot)LLC(at)gmail(dot)com. I will need your Google+ login (email address, not the password) to add you to the list of editors.

  • magicsnd1

    The data files are now available in a public archive at:
    http://tinyurl.com/o8kuxxc

    The large “raw” files are in five segments of 12 hours (x4) and 4 hours. All are .csv format and can be copied and downloaded. The geiger counter data will be uploaded later today. The gamma spectrometer files need processing to remove background level, and will be added tomorrow.

    AlanG

    • Bob Greenyer

      Here is a very Rough, partially labelled 15minute average based chart.