Rossi on New Hot Cat [Update #5: 1350 C for 10 Hours, Self-Sustaining 80% of the Time (First Model now Broken)]

Here are some recent comments from Andrea Rossi on the performance of the new version of the Hot Cat that he is currently testing. Most recent information at the top:

UPDATE #5 (July 28, 2015)

Andrea Rossi has just posted that the first model of the new Hot Cat has broken down. He wrote:

Tom Conover:
As I explained in another comment on this blog few hours ago, the new Hot Cat has been destroyed, but we are making another with a correction that should resolve the problem.

It makes me wonder if the Hot Cat went into some kind of thermal runaway mode. Rossi says that over the years hundreds of reactors have been destroyed by one means or another, sometimes intentionally. His experience should be helpful in making the needed adjustments.

UPDATE #4 (July 28, 2015)

It looks like there are some improvements in the new Hot Cat design. I asked Andrea Rossi about the performance so far coming from the new Hot Cat testing:

Dear Andrea,

So far, is the New Hot Cat showing longer overall SSM times than the Classic Hot Cat?

Andrea Rossi
July 28th, 2015 at 4:06 PM
Frank Acland:
Yes.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

A response to another who asked about the maximum value of temperature the new Hot Cat can reach is more revealing:

Andrea Rossi
July 28th, 2015 at 4:01 PM
Gerry Carillon:
We reached 1380°C and resisted for about 10 hours at that temperature, of which 8 hours in ssm.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

I think this is the most detailed information we have yet received from Andrea Rossi about the performance of the Hot Cat. He has previously said they have been getting very long self-sustain periods with the Hot Cat, and this comment states that it was self-sustaining 80 per cent of the time during a 10 hour period. We can’t calculate COP from this as there is no information about overall power-in/power-out, but anything maintaining a temperature of 1380°C with no input power is certainly remarkable!

UPDATE #3 (July 26, 2015)

Andrea Rossi
July 26th, 2015 at 4:20 PM
KD, Paul:
Here is a first update.
Here the time is now 05.00 p.m. of July 26. The 1 MW E-Cat is stable and regular. The New Hot Cat has worked out his first day of operation and so far the components have operated well. The efficiency so far is the same of the classic Hot Cat, but I am giving Her time to assess all the components. Anyway: it works. How well it works has to be seen yet.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

UPDATE #2 (July 26, 2015)

The new model Hot Cat has apparently started up:

Andrea Rossi
July 26th, 2015 at 12:22 AM
Paul:
In this moment here it is 01.20 a.m. of Sunday July 26.
The new Hot Cat is just started. She is promising well, but obviously before saying anything worth to be listened is necessary a period of several days.
Warm Regards
A.R.

UPDATE #1 (July 25, 2015)

Andrea Rossi was asked on the JONP why he was so excited by this new iteration of the Hot Cat, when he has made many changes over the years. His response:

Andrea Rossi
July 25th, 2015 at 8:11 AM
Albert N.:
Because I made a revolution in it. It is a completely new thing that, by my calculatons, should ( SHOULD) improve the “classic” one. It is an attempt: if it goes, the improvement, in term of ssm, will be strong. Otherwise, it is a wrong idea. The only way to know is to make an experiment. The funny part is how I got this idea: after the hernia surgery, when I woke up from the total anesthesy I got through, I had to stay some hour in a room, with pain. I am used to overcome pain relaxing and focusing strongly in something; obviously I focused on a new reactor and it came out. Now we did it, tomorrow goes in action. We’ll see if she is an abort or a baby. If she is a baby, is a M.me Curie!
Warm Regards,
A.R.

It seems that while Andrea Rossi is monitoring the performance of the 1MW plant (all recent reports from him about the plant are quite positive), he is also busy with the development of the Hot Cat (high temperature E-Cat), a test reactor which is also being subject to a year-long test in the shipping container where he is working.

Rossi has recently stated that he has had an idea on how to ‘revolutionize’ the performance of the Hot Cat, based on data that his team has been gathering during its test run. Here are some recent comments he has made about the current status of the Hot Cat R&D:

July 24:

“About my “life in the container”: it’s now 09.20 p.m. of Friday July 25 where I am, and She is working stable.Sunday, the day after tomorrow, the new version of the Hot Cat will be put in operation too, and, honestly, I am very excited about it.”

Q: “1. How much time does it now take from start of the hot cat until it achieves COP >1?” A: 1- 1 hour circa

“We are trying to obtain a direct production of electric power [with the Hot Cat]. Just R&D so far, but we are getting something. I cannot comment further.”

“some hint of direct electricity production has been measured”

“Direct production, I can’t comment further. It could not work, as well as it could. This is just one of the many targets we have in program with the R&D upon this new concept of Hot Cat; the main target remains an ssm as long as possible, to raise the COP as high as possible. Production of electricity can anyway and without any doubt made by means of well known cycles, mainly the Carnot cycle. Direct production remains intriguing, though, and we have measured direct current exiting from the Hot Cat in some amount, so that we want to know better the issue. So far it is not technology, it is just a pursue of knowledge: ” Fatti non foste a viver come bruti…”

It does not sound then, at this point, that the Hot Cat is at a point where they can think about it being able to provide useful energy directly — but Rossi’s comment above about production of electricity being possible “without a doubt” using well known cycles is a strong indicator of the Hot Cat being able to deliver heat at high enough temperatures and COP for efficient electrical production.

To me it sounds like direct electrical production for a domestic unit is still quite a distant hope, but that using the Hot Cat to generate electricity via steam turbines is very probable. It’s highly unlikely that domestic reactors will be shipped with a mini steam turbine, but larger scale power plants could well use the E-Cat as a heat source. It will be interesting to hear what Rossi says about how the revamped Hot Cat performs.

  • Charlie D

    Rossi seems to fall in to the innovation trap of always looking into something new but never getting a finalised product to the market.

    • Warthog

      Since he is currently working inside the commercial prototype that is bringing at least one “finalized product” tp market, I don’t see any basis for your comment. That he can multi-task on this level is a good thing.

      • mike

        Some people create. Some can’t create so they criticize. And I am not talking about constructive criticism. I mean the kind meant to destroy. For example, hot fusion has gotten billions and nothing to market, that’s ok in their minds, but they need to go after Roosi. Intellectually dishonest people they are.

        • GreenWin

          mike, hot fusion apologists tell us their work is like the construction of great Gothic cathedrals. It is grand architecture requiring centuries of time. It’s been 63 years so far. And the big boondoggle ITER needs another 40 years (and ~$25B) before it becomes a product so… let’s be patient.

          • f sedei

            The bureaucrats bought the “Brooklyn Bridge” sales pitch hook, line and sinker. And, we, the taxpayers are paying for it. Maybe LENR will help cause them to admit the terrible, mind-blowing decision.

          • Frechette

            We should have a true Democracy Swiss style where every major government initiative is decided by plebiscite.

          • Roland

            ‘Real’ democracy needs lots of knowledgable grownups (they seem to be in short supply in most jurisdictions) and a recognized body of factual information that’s broadly agreed to as a starting point for the debate about what to do. Short of that plebiscite driven populism usually ends up in the ditch rather than further on down the road.

            For example, it is very difficult to reconcile a populist rejection of the contemporary understanding of geology and evolutionary theory with sound educational policy due to a lack of shared facts between people who insist the earth is 6,000 years old, despite massive evidence to the contrary, and people who’s beliefs are formed around our best understanding of the history of the planet and the paleontological record.

            Then there are beauties like the ‘Three strikes and you’re out’ laws in California that were brought to the ballot by the Parol Officers and Prison Guards Union.

            That worked out great…

        • Sanjeev

          The problem is that people actually believe that the hot fusion will work no matter what. Thanks to the brainwashing by media, govs and the so called “scientists”. It is taken as a fact based on blind faith by most.
          There is no harm in experimenting, but then the hot fusion should not be called as a “project” which has a defined target and time frame. It should be open ended like a space program. People should be informed that perhaps nothing will come out of it, except may be some papers.
          People should know that it will not magically solve the energy problems overnight, even if it is successful after 100 years of experimenting and 100s of billions of $s.

        • Frechette

          Mary Yugo comes to mind.

    • Sanjeev

      He is continuously innovating (alone and now with the new team), but it does not follow from that, that he is in a trap. Perhaps the earlier models were not marketable. Perhaps he could not get good partners, and so on.

      He has a customer, which means he is already in commercial mode. So its too late to use the word “never” here. Of course, the customer is hidden at this time, so I can understand why some people would think like that. But when he has already declared that he will enter the market in a big way only after 1 year of test, then we should wait before we can say never.

    • Frechette

      It’s been my observation having worked many years in an R/D environment that there are initiators and concluders. Rossi is a typical initiator.

    • Slad

      Google ENTP personality…

  • Gerard McEk

    I am very intrigued by this direct current production. More than three years ago this was already mentioned. It took a wile, but now AR is actively persueing it, great!
    CO2 seems to be a much better medium to produce electricity via the Carnot cycle than steam. Recent developments show that 45% efficiency can be reached for small units. I am sure this direction will be taken in the future, if direct electricity production will not work after all.

  • Stephen

    I’m also very intrigued by this. It’s exciting news if it works out as we hope. I wish him luck with the new Test and ongoing work… I hope it brings new and surprising and positive results too.

  • BillH

    A couple of years ago I posted a link on one of AR’s sites(Not the JONP) about a project to turn radiation/nuclear energy into electricity. Unfortunately AR never responded or never saw it. I’d like to find the link again and I’m hoping someone here might be able to help. As far as I recall it was a university/lab project where they had managed to convert low level radiation into electricity with an efficiency near 80% they were saying it was a desktop unit but not very scalable. At the time, because it was so small I thought it would have been ideal for converting LENR energy into electricity. If this were a rapid conversion process it might take most of the heat out of the equation altogether, an interesting prospect.

    • perhaps something in the area of

      http://www.google.com/patents/DE4300225A1?cl=en

      ?

      • BillH

        Again, this wasn’t a patent as such, I believe this was a project at a lab or university.

    • perhaps something along this line

      https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13545-nanomaterial-turns-radiation-directly-into-electricity/

      or

      http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Research%20Papers-Quantum%20Theory%20/%20Particle%20Physics/Download/4362

      “Quantum dot solar cells are currently being constructed using lead to capture light. Thus, the technology to convert nuclear radiation into electricity may already exist. Examples are PbS, PbSe, and PbTe solar cells, as described by Wise (2000). I therefore ask researches using lead in their solar cells to capture light to also try using nuclear radiation rather than light to generate current. Also, try varying the lead composition by trying different lead alloy or lead based
      compounds. Since a thick layer of lead shielding is required to block gamma rays, several lead quantum dot solar cell layers should be used,
      ie: tandem cells-cells stacked on top of each other. In this way, each successive lead layer can capture energy so as much radiation is captured as possible.”

      ?

      • BillH

        Thanks for looking, but no, this didn’t mention nanotech and I’m pretty sure it was not in New Scientist. I wish I could remember more about it… there was a diagram showing a radiation source at the end of a long tube, not unlike some of Rossi’s recent fuel cell. There was also a prototype on a lab desktop.

  • AdrianAshfield

    As I’ve mentioned before, there is obviously a possibility of using hot cats to heat the air directly in a micro turbine. It may not be very efficient but it would be simpler to have a system that didn’t use steam.

  • AdrianAshfield

    As I’ve mentioned before, there is obviously a possibility of using hot cats to heat the air directly in a micro turbine. It may not be very efficient but it would be simpler to have a system that didn’t use steam.

  • georgehants

    Why a M,me Curie! Surely not Radium?

  • Paul Smith

    Madame Curie died for her discoveries. I don’t think Rossi would mean this sad fact. Probably he talk about a really new amazing discovery like did Madame curie… but I don’t understand the connection…

    • Sanjeev

      Rossi: 2- No, the reference to M.me Curie was just referred to an absolute paradigma of excellence.
      So, fortunately, his sickness is not due to some unknown radiation from the E-cat.

  • Paul Smith

    Madame Curie died for her discoveries. I don’t think Rossi would mean this sad fact. Probably he talk about a really new amazing discovery like did Madame curie… but I don’t understand the connection…

    • Sanjeev

      Rossi: 2- No, the reference to M.me Curie was just referred to an absolute paradigma of excellence.
      So, fortunately, his sickness is not due to some unknown radiation from the E-cat.

  • Syl

    Well I guess that if this new e-cat is so much better, then Rossi will begin a new 3-month long test on it and then a 1-year long test.
    The one he has been working on for so long will be forgotten.
    So we have to wait again and again and again.

    • GreenWin

      Why would the one he’s been working on be “forgotten?” Is this a personal fear?

      • Syl

        Because it already happened. Rossi “forgot” about the 1st e-cat when he invented the one he is working on right now (well I speak about the one before the new new one).
        About 3 years ago, Rossi was talking about mass production of the 1st e-cat… until the new one came out. No mass production ever happened (even though he said that he had, at that time, a robotized mass production line).

        And now that we are close to the end of the long 1-year test… there is another new e-cat, much better, coming!

        • Brent Buckner

          I expect that Darden will keep IH on track. He wasn’t in the picture earlier.

        • GreenWin

          Ah. So a personal fear. I too have forgotten. e.g. the Thomson Blackman tokamak. Promised in 1946 to produce “unlimited thermonuclear fusion.” Gosh, that’s nearly 70 years ago now!

          • Uncle Bob

            There is a difference.
            Nobody ever claimed they had a Tokamak heating a factory for two years.
            Nobody ever claimed they had Tokamak products ready to market.
            Nobody ever took pre-orders for Tokamaks.
            Nobody ever claimed regarding the Tokamak, “The market will decide” and then fail to put one on the market.

            The problem we have here is that in the many years since all those claims were made, not one single product has been available to the market for it to decide anything on.
            It’s about time something,.. anything, was put on the market to dispel all the negative talk about whether this process is going to save the planet or not.
            Anything on the market with a COP significantly greater than one will prove the technology beyond dispute.
            If a better design comes out next year, it doesn’t matter.
            All technology produces better models every year.
            The acceptance of the new model is assisted by the establishment in the market place of the first models.
            How far is the latest desktop computer removed from the old Commodore 32?
            Did they think they had the perfect computer in 1978?
            I don’t think so, but it didn’t stop them putting it on the market, and anyone could copy them. But the better ones still made a fortune and continue to do so today with each new model released.

            Enough of the talk. Put something on the market !

          • Syl

            I agree with you 100%.
            I was one of those who pre-ordered the 1st e-cat lol.

          • GreenWin

            Ah. I understand your frustration Uncle. In 1951 Juan Peron President of Argentina announced an operational “hot fusion” plant. This so disturbed Allied brass they convinced Lyman Spitzer at Princeton to declassify Project Matterhorn – and its legendary “Stellarator.” The Stellarator promised to deliver “unlimited clean fusion energy” in less than 20 years.

            The American Congress (i.e. tax payers) happily ponied up billions$$ for Princeton to copy the Russian Tokamak hot fusion gadget – also promising “unlimited clean energy” no later than 1970.

            Unhappily neither the Russian, Argentinian or American hot fusion gadgets delivered fusion or useful energy in 1970. But PPPL promised newly developed technology (TFTR) would for absolute certain deliver unlimited clean energy within the next two decades. They just needed another 25-30 billions$$ of tax dollars.

            Come 1990 TFTR failed to deliver even one Watt of unlimited clean fusion energy. Congress and the American people began to realize they’d been bamboozled. After pumping billions of tax payer dollars into 50 years of hot fusion research they had all failed to achieve ignition. Much less over unity. So DOE began the ICF program called “Laboratory Microfusion Facility” But these all failed to achieve ignition so DOE and NSF in 1994 sunk another 10 Billions$$ into NIF National Ignition Facility at LLNL. It promised to deliver clean unlimited energy by the next millennium.

            Then in 1999 Princeton announced the National Spherical Torus Experiment (NSTX) – destined to deliver “unlimited clean fusion energy” in the next decade. But even now in 2015, NSTX NIF, Alcator C Mod, etc have all failed to deliver even one Watt of useful energy from hot fusion. And last year LLNL’s National Ignition Facility twice failed to achieve ignition as promised and mandated by Congress.

            But fear not. The Euro-based ITER project is now promised to begin tests by 2040. And clean unlimited fusion energy will be delivered 20 years after that. Cost: $200B dollars shared by a dozen nations.

            Five or six new programs, gadgets, installations over the past 65 years – all failed. But ITER is the next product announcement – however it’ll be 45 years before it inevitably fails. Unless sanity return to science and the entire boondoggle of hot fusion is buried deep in the ground. Where it belongs.

          • Pipmon

            Maybe, but at least you can see the facilities and if you have a special invite or are commissioned to do a documentary on them , you could actually enter the sites and talk to those involved about the problems and the progress etc…. With Rossi, we don’t even know where all these variants of the e-cat may be. We have never been able to directly interact with any involved other than Rossi (and even he at arm’s length) and not one single W of power has ever been definitively (certifiably) measured and the same situation prevails for all ‘replicators’.

            So who’s leading the dance? and why call it a ‘personal fear’?

            Do you mean the fear is all in that person’s mind and is not borne out by “facts” as told to us by Rossi?

            The tin-foil hat crowd are replete with “facts” re just about anything under the Sun (and beyond). Without robust and independent proof of any such claims why believe one more than the other?

            PS: I am hopeful re LENR, but only because of people like F&P and M. McKubre and similar researchers who work to decipher the physics of the phenomenon. (Kudos to all Japanese. Indian and other facilities who also publish their findings). Rossi, should he succeed may become rich, but that won’t make him a scientist in the best tradition of such.

    • kenko1

      My feelings too. It is still at a stage where it can be ‘Tesla-sized’ (buried).

      Why not manufacture it like car models? A 2015 model, 2016 model etc. Improvements will come constantly, as with any product. Or are they still selling brand new Model T’s?

  • They fact that they could put together a new design so quickly shows just how simple a device it really is. Compare that to the Tokamak hot fusion laser reactor.

  • They fact that they could put together a new design so quickly shows just how simple a device it really is. Compare that to the Tokamak hot fusion laser reactor.

  • Sanjeev

    Rossi : the new Hot Cat will be ready tomorrow morning to be started, so, in total, in a week it has been designed, made, put in operation. It is not bad, is it?

    New hot cat ? Not bad at all, but what does it do ?

    • Flo

      doesn’t go critical maybe

  • Sanjeev

    He is continuously innovating (alone and now with the new team), but it does not follow from that, that he is in a trap. Perhaps the earlier models were not marketable. Perhaps he could not get good partners, and so on.

    He has a customer, which means he is already in commercial mode. So its too late to use the word “never” here. Of course, the customer is hidden at this time, so I can understand why some people would think like that. But when he has already declared that he will enter the market in a big way only after 1 year of test, then we should wait before we can say never.

  • Jimr

    A little off topic but I was pleasantly surprised when Rossi announced the use of 250kw cats a few months ago. I believe a 1mw cat will be announced after the first of the year.

  • Buck

    Up to this point, Rossi has stated that the “largest” Hot-Cat was rated at 3.5kw.

    I can only wonder if this has changed with the re-design.

  • Buck

    Up to this point, Rossi has stated that the “largest” Hot-Cat was rated at 3.5kw.

    I can only wonder if this has changed with the re-design.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    As wonderful as this is, I think we’re only at the beginning of Rossi’s learning curve. Stay tuned to ECW. The best is yet to come.

    http://www.cognitivesimulation.com/images/learning-curve.jpg

  • Alan DeAngelis

    As wonderful as this is, I think we’re only at the beginning of Rossi’s learning curve. Stay tuned to ECW. The best is yet to come.

    http://www.cognitivesimulation.com/images/learning-curve.jpg

  • Flo

    I haven’t seen Rossi so hyped since he has discovered this thing back in 2010. I hope it doesn’t take 5 more years to go public.

  • Flo

    I haven’t seen Rossi so hyped since he has discovered this thing back in 2010. I hope it doesn’t take 5 more years to go public.

  • Axil Axil

    Rossi might be mixing the hot cat mouse concept with the E-Cat based Cats in a mixed hybrid reactor design. The Hot Cat gets hotter than the E-Cat so it will push the E-Cats with less power used and get the E-Cat closer to the burn up temperature limit. Rossi might want to push the E-Cat right up to the burn up limit and he might not have been able to do that with the E-Cat mouse driver. Because of Lithium, the Hot Cat also converts the nickel micro powder to Ni62 whereas the E-Cats cannot do that.

    I believe that the E-Cat uses potassium(vapor point 750C) as the catalyst and the Hot Cat uses Lithium(vapor point 1400C).

    Rossi would have had to do some reprogramming of his control software to drive the Hot-cat so that the E-Cat does not burn up on overheating when the E-Cat Cats get close to the burn up limit..

  • Axil Axil

    Rossi might be mixing the hot cat mouse concept with the E-Cat based Cats in a mixed hybrid reactor design. The Hot Cat gets hotter than the E-Cat so it will push the E-Cats with less power used and get the E-Cat closer to the burn up temperature limit. Rossi might want to push the E-Cat right up to the burn up limit and he might not have been able to do that with the E-Cat mouse driver. Because of Lithium, the Hot Cat also converts the nickel micro powder to Ni62 whereas the E-Cats cannot do that.

    I believe that the E-Cat uses potassium(vapor point 750C) as the catalyst and the Hot Cat uses Lithium(vapor point 1400C).

    The E-Cat mouse is weak having a COP close to 1. It may not be a powerful Cat driver. But the Hot Cat may be a strong driver to get the most SSM out of the Cats…but the Hot cat mouse might just be too strong.

    Rossi would have had to do some reprogramming of his control software to drive the Hot-cat so that the E-Cat does not burn up on overheating when the E-Cat Cats get close to the burn up limit..

  • Frechette

    It’s been my observation having worked many years in an R/D environment that there are initiators and concluders. Rossi is a typical initiator.

  • Freethinker

    Just a thought:

    “In physics and materials science, the Curie temperature (Tc), or Curie point, is the temperature where a material’s permanent magnetism changes to induced magnetism. ”

    from Wikipedia

  • Freethinker

    Just a thought:

    “In physics and materials science, the Curie temperature (Tc), or Curie point, is the temperature where a material’s permanent magnetism changes to induced magnetism. ”

    from Wikipedia

  • Slad

    Google ENTP personality…

    • Gerard McEk

      “Trrrmm, trrrrmm, trrrrmm” … That’s my fingers hitting the table… I am patient, oh yes I am.
      My wife thinks I am nervous, though. 😉

    • Jimr

      Clovis, do you know what his new idea is that sounds great?

  • Zavod

    “Production of electricity can anyway and without any doubt made by means of well known cycles, mainly the Carnot cycle.” There is no such thing as a Carnot engine. The Carnot cycle is a theoretical construct that allows the calculation of the upper limit of the efficiency of conversion of heat into work.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Patience folks. Inventions take time. James Dyson, “Our problem is patience. We expect new
    technology at a rate like never before. Naysayers are already questioning graphene. They ask why the wonder material hasn’t yet changed our lives. Graphene was only discovered in 2004. Stainless steel was almost 100 years in the making.” http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/23/age-of-invention-is-not-dead-innovation

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Patience folks. Inventions take time. James Dyson, “Our problem is patience. We expect new
    technology at a rate like never before. Naysayers are already questioning graphene. They ask why the wonder material hasn’t yet changed our lives. Graphene was only discovered in 2004. Stainless steel was almost 100 years in the making.” http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/23/age-of-invention-is-not-dead-innovation

  • Alan DeAngelis
    • georgehants

      Alan, something like that is needed to give us monkeys some intelligence.
      Why do you think today though?

      • Alan DeAngelis

        “…Sunday, the day after tomorrow, the new version of the Hot Cat will be put in operation…”

      • MasterBlaster7

        monolith’s don’t give intelligence…they test for intelligence.

        • georgehants

          Master, incorrect, I first saw the film and read the book when it was released in 1968, only after touching the monolith did the Ape’s pick up weapons to defeat their rivals and the rest is History.
          And of course I Researched the answer before replying to you.
          Certainly time, I think, for another monolith as other than a few basic advances in technology etc. (mainly killing people) the human race has progressed nowhere.
          We are now falling far behind the ancient Greeks etc. in many areas allowing for the millennia’s advantage that we have.
          ——–
          The Origins of Social Responsibility in Ancient Greece
          This view supports that from the early days of civilization it was understood, in some cases by the state or in others by wealthy individuals of the time, that it would only be fairer for the rest of society if such individuals shared a portion of their amassed wealth with their fellow citizens. This reality came into being from the realization of the fact that has it not be for the rest of society, wealth making would probably be an impossibility. Thus, bearing this realization in mind, certain laws were voted by the state which at the time reflected precisely and directly the opinion of the people. Namely these were the liturgies, “a wide range of public service paid for out of the pockets of the people owning substantial property”1. There were two different kinds of liturgies, the regular liturgies which had a religious character, and the extraordinary liturgies which had a military character.
          http://www.helleniccomserve.com/origins_socialresponsibility.html
          ——–
          http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/advanced-surgical-implant-found-ancient-mummy
          http://www.livescience.com/1166-scientists-unravel-mystery-ancient-greek-machine.html

          • GreenWin

            It makes an apt analogy does it not George? The primitive apes lived in nomadic peace until awakened one day to a sheer black monolith. After examining it by sense and touch, they turned old bones into weapons, and weapons to spacecraft. From peaceful co-existence to violence in less than 50k years! Go Apes!

            And um, thanks to whoever gave ’em the monolith. Earth’s first black project?

          • Alan DeAngelis

            On second thought, the land animals that became dolphins took the better route.

            http://www.dolphinparardisetours.com/Dolphin-face.jpg

          • Alan DeAngelis

            There was a little glitch. The only message the monolith transmitted was Psalm 137:9.

          • richyroo

            Where did u get ‘peaceful co-existance’ from? The second scene of the film is an aborted attempt to take over the waterhole! No animals live in peacegull co-existance, humans at keast have a chance to one day achieve it.

          • Pipmon

            North America (at the very least) had an even better (IMO) system of redistribution, the potlach. Until of course it was outlawed by the colonizing governments as being: “….seen as wasteful, unproductive, and contrary to ‘civilized values’ of accumulation.[17]”.
            (from wikipaedia with the attribute to G.M. Sproat )
            Could there be a better description of modern capitalism?

          • Pipmon

            By a good description of Capitalism I am referring of course to the part of the quote that says ” the civilized values of accumulation”. 😉

    • Could of sworn that monkey said “Ee-caat”.

    • Martyn

      I’m hoping that we are getting closer to the (Dave Bowman => Star Child) moment.
      Go Rossi! Go!!

  • Gerard McEk

    “Trrrmm, trrrrmm, trrrrmm” … That’s my fingers hitting the table… I am patient, oh yes I am.
    My wife thinks I am nervous, though. 😉

  • Nigel Appleton

    Given that these devices produce a lot of infra-red (and visible) light, I wonder if rectenna technology is being considered. I know there have been some big advances in the field recently, and there is the theoretical possibility of very high radiation->current conversion rates

  • Nigel Appleton

    Given that these devices produce a lot of infra-red (and visible) light, I wonder if rectenna technology is being considered. I know there have been some big advances in the field recently, and there is the theoretical possibility of very high radiation->current conversion rates

  • Not again.
    Mr A.Rossi.
    I put my order in for An E-Cat @COP of better than 6.
    Can I have It please.
    Obliged Twobob,

  • Not again.
    Mr A.Rossi.
    I put my order in for An E-Cat @COP of better than 6.
    Can I have It please.
    Obliged Twobob,

    Ps
    Also My Friend Who Ordered Hers When She was 78.
    Has expressed the opinion that she can not wait much longer..

  • My fingers are crossed.

    BTW Has anyone heard anything about Blacklight Power recently? Their bold promises have not produced a usable product as yet. I am highly skeptical, but open minded, and I would love to be proven wrong about their level of credibility. Any insider news?

    • Mark Underwood

      I’m no insider, just a member of the Yahoo Group named Society of Classical Physics. A few of months ago Dr Mills said to the Group that they reduced the amount of water consumed by the SunCell prototype to one tenth the original. Back then I asked for details but none came forth. A few weeks ago Mills said that the SunCell prototype no longer had moving parts. That’s a huge departure! But no details were forthcoming.

      In a nutshell; Blacklight seems to be in no hurry to demo a prototype; I assume they are well padded with investor money. In the meantime they are busy doing major design changes. Mills has said the engineering firms they are working with have trouble keeping up.

      So if anyone thinks Rossi shouldn’t be exploring new ways to ‘do it better’ : that is what Mills is about and I’m used to it. I say good for them.

      • The *no moving parts* statement sounds like a dream come true, but is it real or is it a pipe dream? I hope and pray my skepticism is proven dead wrong, but I am still very skeptical.

        • Mark Underwood

          Originally the fuel/catalyst mixture (‘slurry’) was painted onto one of two large counter rotating copper cylinders/disks, and where the disks contacted (forming an electrical bridge) was where the reaction took place. I conjectured a few weeks ago that now Blacklight is experimenting using spray guns and spraying the mixture directly into fixed gaps, through which the electrical current flows and where the reaction takes place.

          But even given that my guess is true, it’s another matter to have this type of process perform 24-7. It comes down to engineering. At least with the Ecat that aspect has proven to be relatively straight forward.

          • There are allot of strange things in this universe, and I try to keep an open mind. “Spooky” Quantum Entanglement has pretty much been proven by experimentation. If that crazy phenomena is real, then who knows what else is possible. I do, however, wish to avoid buying any large famous bridges at bargain prices.

      • US_Citizen71

        “Dr Mills said to the Group that they reduced the amount of water consumed by the SunCell prototype to one tenth the original. Back then I asked for details but none came forth. A few weeks ago Mills said that the SunCell prototype no longer had moving parts. ” – The first thought in my head was that he melted the prototype into a pile of goo, after reducing the coolant flow to 10%.

        I do wish him the best but it sounds like he may have gone off on a tangent again, as the device no longer seems to be anything like it was in the last public test video.

  • My fingers are crossed.

    BTW Has anyone heard anything about Blacklight Power recently? Their bold promises have not produced a usable product as yet. I am highly skeptical, but open minded, and I would love to be proven wrong about their level of credibility. Any insider news?

    • Mark Underwood

      I’m no insider, just a member of the Yahoo Group named Society of Classical Physics. A few of months ago Dr Mills said to the Group that they reduced the amount of water consumed by the SunCell prototype to one tenth the original. Back then I asked for details but none came forth. A few weeks ago Mills said that the SunCell prototype no longer had moving parts. That’s a huge departure! But no details were forthcoming.

      In a nutshell; Blacklight seems to be in no hurry to demo a prototype; I assume they are well padded with investor money. In the meantime they are busy doing major design changes. Mills has said the engineering firms they are working with have trouble keeping up.

      So if anyone thinks Rossi shouldn’t be exploring new ways to ‘do it better’ : that is what Mills is about and I’m used to it. I say good for them.

      • The *no moving parts* statement sounds like a dream come true, but is it real or is it a pipe dream? I hope and pray my skepticism is proven dead wrong, but I am still very skeptical.

        • Mark Underwood

          Originally the fuel/catalyst mixture (‘slurry’) was painted onto one of two large counter rotating copper cylinders/disks, and where the disks contacted (forming an electrical bridge) was where the reaction took place. I conjectured a few weeks ago that now Blacklight is experimenting using spray guns and spraying the mixture directly into fixed gaps, through which the electrical current flows and where the reaction takes place.

          But even given that my guess is true, it’s another matter to have this type of process perform 24-7. It comes down to engineering. At least with the Ecat that aspect has proven to be relatively straight forward.

          • There are allot of strange things in this universe, and I try to keep an open mind. “Spooky” Quantum Entanglement has pretty much been proven by experimentation. If that crazy phenomena is real, then who knows what else is possible. I do, however, wish to avoid buying any large famous bridges at bargain prices.

      • US_Citizen71

        “Dr Mills said to the Group that they reduced the amount of water consumed by the SunCell prototype to one tenth the original. Back then I asked for details but none came forth. A few weeks ago Mills said that the SunCell prototype no longer had moving parts. ” – The first thought in my head was that he melted the prototype into a pile of goo, after reducing the coolant flow to 10%.

        I do wish him the best but it sounds like he may have gone off on a tangent again, as the device no longer seems to be anything like it was in the last public test video.

        • Mark Underwood

          Gosh, I’m *glad* the device no longer seems to be similar to the one in the public demo. That was unwieldy and rather clunky.
          Good one about the goo. Strangely, at first I thought something similar, and that Mills was showing a sense of humor. ie, the unit was no longer functioning – hence no moving parts. But that was because I couldn’t conceive of a working model having no moving parts. Now I can 🙂

          • Mills over-complicates things to the point of impracticality. The only item that needed to move was water, and the bizarre contraption he came up with to move blobs of gel into the ‘firing line’ was always a non-starter for many reasons. It seems probable that engineering constraints will force him to adopt simpler and simpler solutions until he is more or less back to the concepts already explored by Stanley Meyer and others.

            http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

            http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=536.0

            http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/stanley-meyers-wfc-tec/stanley-meyer-wfc-water-injector-technology/

            My guess would be the same as Mark Underwood’s suggestion below – that he is now injecting water directly into an open reaction chamber (possibly containing a fixed catalyst mesh) and discharging his welder across tungsten electrodes within the chamber – IMHO the solution he should have started with. Alternatively he may even be using a near copy of Meyer’s water injector (see links above) to create open-air water-powered explosions.

            Next he will probably be forced by very low efficiencies and waste heat problems to dump the ‘suncell’ lensing and PVs in favour of his original MHD generator idea, or even to use an actively cooled, semi-closed reactor design with a simple turbine in the exhaust.

            I like US_Citzen71’s interpretation of the ‘no moving parts’ statement, but I get the strong impression that Mills doesn’t have a sense of humour, and that irony probably escapes him.

          • Mark Underwood

            To clarify, it can’t be plain water that is sprayed. It must be water contained in a hydrate. As I understand it, in that state water is at the correct energy to have the hydrino reaction proceed. Otherwise it doesn’t work.

            Stanley Myer’s work is highly suspect to me, for two reasons. 1) There is no low energy product of water combustion and 2) I don’t see water powered cars today.

            Mills has a low energy product (hydrino) and his theory is the work of a genius as far as I can tell. Frankly I doubt very much escapes him.

            The nature of energy dynamics of the SunCell hydrino reaction preclude it from a successful MHD application; the energy is much more photonic than kinetic (moving plasma), apparently.

          • If the hydrate state is necessary then a gas hydrate slurry perhaps, such as methane hydrate (clathrate), or even CO2 clathrate. A metal hydrate gel (e.g., aluminium oxide hydrate) would be more difficult to inject, and would leave deposits that could cause problems unless the metal is fully vapourised during the discharge. Perhaps this wouldn’t matter much during the R&D phase.

            Mills is attempting to capture energy from the light emitted by his discharges, but if the entire process is contained in a chamber, the energy would presumably have nowhere to go other than to heat, which could be harvested most simply by an active cooling system. Tapping the gaseous ‘exhaust’ in some way would probably be necessary as well for efficiency.

            Regarding Meyers-type cars, I don’t see e-cat technology in use, but the evidence seems to indicate that e-cat reactors exist. Whether they will make it past entrenched vested interests (unlike Meyers’ ‘dune buggy’ and later imitators like Genepax) remains to be seen. Those labelled ‘conspiracy theorists’ seem to have the facts on their side…

            http://henrymakow.com/2013/11/Illuminati-Suppress-Water-Powered-Cars.html

            http://www.greenoptimistic.com/genepax-japanese-water-car-company-shut-to-silence/

            … or, there are and have been many scammers in the world using metal hydrides or hidden H2 tanks to pointlessly fool journalists and those who have looked very closely at the claims.

          • Mark Underwood

            I’m not averse to certain conspiracy theories, in fact I believe a lot of them, like false flag operations. Conspiracies regarding suppression of potential, novel energy sources, not so much. But I largely believe what Eugene Mallove had to say regarding conspiratorial activity in some academic circles to protect funding.

            Both Rossi and Mills have a low energy product, whether it is isotopically altered nickel or lithium, or hydrino. I’ve heard of no such low energy product from when Meyers had his alleged water powered car.

            Mills uses a metal hydrate for a two-fold purpose – it serves as a conductive matrix for the high current to flow, and it holds the water in a particular energy state so it has the correct energy to serve as a catalyst. Specifically, some of the water is disassociated into oxygen and atomic hydrogen, which becomes the fuel. Other water serves as a catalyst; it has the correct energy to absorbs a very particular amount of energy from the atomic hydrogen. When that occurs the atomic hydrogen becomes unstable and drops to a very low energy state called the hydrino. So the theory goes.

            Yes for sure there have been energy scammers. I just don’t think either Rossi or Mills fit that bill, although Mills might assume such of Rossi 🙂

  • clovis ray

    Good luck Dr.R, with your new experiment, your new idea sounds great, and possibly a god sent as well, thanks for giving us the hope, and dreams for a better world ,

    • Jimr

      Clovis, do you know what his new idea is that sounds great?

      • clovis ray

        well, electric production, what was it you thought
        Here is the piece that I thought might be the god sent,

        when I woke up from the total anesthesy I got through, I had to stay some hour in a room, with pain. I am used to overcome pain relaxing and focusing strongly in something; obviously I focused on a new reactor and it came out. Now we did it, tomorrow goes in action. We’ll see if she is an abort or a baby. If she is a baby, is a M.me Curie!

  • Leonard Weinstein

    Rossi continues to make improvements. However, many readers continue to think this implies near free energy may be around the corner. While it is likely that thermal heat on modest industrial scale may be made much less expensive, home use has other limitations. In order to show a realistic comparison of conventional home use vs. a system using a reasonable COP e-cat system and external supplied electricity, the following write up was made:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ZfEkgmBH37WUdpS2JjZXNiMnc/view?usp=sharing

    The conclusion is that some small savings may be possible with realistic systems, but not a huge saving as hoped. However, new developments on many fronts may change that conclusion, so it is not the final word.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      The COP of 15 is speculative. We really don’t know what it
      is (and you well noted this point).

      However, you at least give a starting point to “think” and gather
      some ideas as to how well and “where” the cross over points to adopting the technology
      occur. (so I still much commend your approach and thinking on this matter.

      The bright spot and REAL hope is the “rumored” COP is 20-80.
      Depending on which end of this scale will DRAMATIC change the cost and use of
      LENR.

      So for refrigeration, dryers, air conditioning? Such devices will likely come with a replaceable cartridges (like toner for your printer). Thus the heat DIRECTLY from LENR would be used for heating or cooling.

      Thus your dryer would use small amounts of electricity to turn the clothing and that replaceable “cartridge” that working on LENR would provide the heat (hopefully with a COP of say 50+). Having a dryer that uses 50 times less power then the one now is rather appealing.

      And the same goes for air conditioning, you use the well-known ammonia cycle – and again such a device could/would have its own replaceable cartridge. I don’t know the conversion rates of watts with ammonia cycles in terms of the resulting output in terms watts of the resulting airconditationg you get

      Keep in mind that the instant you get up around 15+ or 20+
      COP is the SAME point in time in which you can self-loop such systems – in other
      words you only need some input power to get the system going – after that, no
      grid power would be required.

      If Rossi has say the middle value COP of 50, then the INSTANT anyone can get their hands on such a device is the SAME instant that you be running sterling generator and you not care about input energy anymore.

      However, I much agree that a COP in the 6-8 range VERY much
      limits how useful such a device is at the consumer level.

      I hoping someone will “ask” Rossi to give us an idea of the typical daily COP he is seeing right now.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Daniel Maris

      I agree. If genuine, this technology will have growing but incremental impact – it won’t be an overnight revolution.

  • Leonard Weinstein

    Rossi continues to make improvements. However, many readers continue to think this implies near free energy may be around the corner. While it is likely that thermal heat on modest industrial scale may be made much less expensive, home use has other limitations. In order to show a realistic comparison of conventional home use vs. a system using a reasonable COP e-cat system and external supplied electricity, the following write up was made:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ZfEkgmBH37WUdpS2JjZXNiMnc/view?usp=sharing

    The conclusion is that some small savings may be possible with realistic systems, but not a huge saving as hoped. However, new developments on many fronts may change that conclusion, so it is not the final word.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      The COP of 15 is speculative. We really don’t know what it
      is (and you well noted this point).

      However, you at least give a starting point to “think” and gather
      some ideas as to how well and “where” the cross over points to adopting the technology
      occur. (so I still much commend your approach and thinking on this matter.

      The bright spot and REAL hope is the “rumored” COP is 20-80.
      Depending on which end of this scale will DRAMATIC change the cost and use of
      LENR.

      So for refrigeration, dryers, air conditioning? Such devices will likely come with a replaceable cartridges (like toner for your printer). Thus the heat DIRECTLY from LENR would be used for heating or cooling.

      Thus your dryer would use small amounts of electricity to turn the clothing and that replaceable “cartridge” that working on LENR would provide the heat (hopefully with a COP of say 50+). Having a dryer that uses 50 times less power then the one now is rather appealing.

      And the same goes for air conditioning, you use the well-known ammonia cycle – and again such a device could/would have its own replaceable cartridge. I don’t know the conversion rates of watts with ammonia cycles in terms of the resulting output in terms watts of the resulting airconditationg you get

      Keep in mind that the instant you get up around 15+ or 20+
      COP is the SAME point in time in which you can self-loop such systems – in other
      words you only need some input power to get the system going – after that, no
      grid power would be required.

      If Rossi has say the middle value COP of 50, then the INSTANT anyone can get their hands on such a device is the SAME instant that you be running sterling generator and you not care about input energy anymore.

      However, I much agree that a COP in the 6-8 range VERY much
      limits how useful such a device is at the consumer level.

      I hoping someone will “ask” Rossi to give us an idea of the typical daily COP he is seeing right now.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • BroKeeper

    A discovery of new technology of this magnitude opens a whole new paradigm change of industrial development. LENR affects nearly every scientific aspect of our physical world’s
    understanding and its potential use. The more its realism takes hold the greater flow of ideas to implement its use. Clearly Andrea Rossi is at the bleeding edge of one of the greatest discoveries of our age. His brilliant imagination and intellect is constantly in high gear thinking of better ways to capture its optimum potential to where the upgrades of the E-Cat appear seamless.

    This leads to a paradoxical decision as to when and which version is ready for manufacturing. A time is coming when IH will have to make a decision to industrialize its latest model to capitalize on maximum initial profit margin before competition can. Perhaps there will be back-to-back E-Cat model releases with differing consumer purposes. Whatever the case I believe IH has some of the best capitalistic strategists that won’t allow that window of opportunity to close. I would suggest, as Bernie said, we must have patience, and may I add be less an arm chair quarterbacks (hard to do). Let’s sit back and enjoy this historical ride.

  • Brokeeper

    A discovery of new technology of this magnitude opens a whole new paradigm change of industrial development. LENR affects nearly every scientific aspect of our physical world’s
    understanding and its potential use. The more its realism takes hold the greater flow of ideas to implement its use. Clearly Andrea Rossi is at the bleeding edge of one of the greatest discoveries of our age. His brilliant imagination and intellect is constantly in high gear thinking of better ways to capture its optimum potential to where the upgrades of the E-Cat appear seamless.

    This leads to a paradoxical decision as to when and which version is ready for manufacturing. A time is coming when IH will have to make a decision to industrialize its latest model to capitalize on maximum initial profit margin before competition can. Perhaps there will be back-to-back E-Cat model releases with differing consumer purposes. Whatever the case I believe IH has some of the best capitalistic strategists that won’t allow that window of opportunity to close. I would suggest, as Bernie said, we must have patience, and may I add be less an arm chair quarterbacks (hard to do). Let’s sit back and enjoy this historical ride.

    • BillH

      Or, a huge energy company will simply buy out IH’s total production capacity for the next 10 years, integrate it into their existing power plants and pocket the huge profits without actually bringing down energy prices. Domestic Ecats and off-grid living might just disappear over the horizon.

  • Observer

    Read between the lines:

    ” I cannot even confirm that we will be able to harness and make useful the electric signals we are getting from inside the reactor. She is a completely new concept, I have no idea if it will last and how much will last. If it will go we will have made a gigantic step forward toward a massive application.”

    There is something about the new Hot Cat that A.R. would like to sustain.

  • Observer

    Read between the lines:

    ” I cannot even confirm that we will be able to harness and make useful the electric signals we are getting from inside the reactor. She is a completely new concept, I have no idea if it will last and how much will last. If it will go we will have made a gigantic step forward toward a massive application.”

    There is something about the new Hot Cat that A.R. would like to sustain.

  • artefact

    Fyodor
    July 27th, 2015 at 10:16 AM

    1. Is there any progress or news on generation of electricity from traditional mechanisms, such as steam engines?
    2. Is there anything you can tell us in general terms about what makes the new hot-cat different? Different temperature? Different control mechanism? Different reactor geometry?

    Andrea Rossi
    July 27th, 2015 at 10:22 AM
    Fyodor:
    1- not so far. We are working on it with the new Hot Cat.
    2- too soon to enter in details, but all of those issues have been revolutionized.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • artefact

    Fyodor
    July 27th, 2015 at 10:16 AM

    1. Is there any progress or news on generation of electricity from traditional mechanisms, such as steam engines?
    2. Is there anything you can tell us in general terms about what makes the new hot-cat different? Different temperature? Different control mechanism? Different reactor geometry?

    Andrea Rossi
    July 27th, 2015 at 10:22 AM
    Fyodor:
    1- not so far. We are working on it with the new Hot Cat.
    2- too soon to enter in details, but all of those issues have been revolutionized.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • artefact

    Andrea Rossi
    July 27th, 2015 at 8:18 PM
    KD:
    We believe it will work, but this does not mean that it will work:
    likewise, a lover believes that his beloved lady will fall in love with
    him, but not always the story goes this way. This is a matter of fact we
    have to take notice of.

    Update about the new Hot Cat: is working. It is working. So far. It is
    now 09.20 p.m. of July 28 in the plant, the 1 MW E-Cat is stable, no
    major problems, and the new Hot Cat works in a very promising way. I am
    very satisfied of this “incipit”. Let’s see what is gonna happen next.
    Promising night.

    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • artefact

    Andrea Rossi
    July 27th, 2015 at 8:18 PM
    KD:
    We believe it will work, but this does not mean that it will work:
    likewise, a lover believes that his beloved lady will fall in love with
    him, but not always the story goes this way. This is a matter of fact we
    have to take notice of.

    Update about the new Hot Cat: is working. It is working. So far. It is
    now 09.20 p.m. of July 28 in the plant, the 1 MW E-Cat is stable, no
    major problems, and the new Hot Cat works in a very promising way. I am
    very satisfied of this “incipit”. Let’s see what is gonna happen next.
    Promising night.

    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • maxscipio

    “gigantic step forward toward a massive application”: either electric conversion or automobile

  • artefact

    Frank Acland
    July 28th, 2015 at 2:30 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    So far, is the New Hot Cat showing longer overall SSM times than the Classic Hot Cat?
    Many thanks,
    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    July 28th, 2015 at 4:06 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Yes.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • artefact

    Frank Acland
    July 28th, 2015 at 2:30 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    So far, is the New Hot Cat showing longer overall SSM times than the Classic Hot Cat?
    Many thanks,
    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    July 28th, 2015 at 4:06 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Yes.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • artefact

    Gerry Carillion
    July 28th, 2015 at 9:02 AM
    Dear Andrea:
    Which is the maximum value of temperature the new Hot Cat can reach?
    Cheers,
    Gerry

    Andrea Rossi
    July 28th, 2015 at 4:01 PM
    Gerry Carillon:
    We reached 1380°C and resisted for about 10 hours at that temperature, of which 8 hours in ssm.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • artefact

    Gerry Carillion
    July 28th, 2015 at 9:02 AM
    Dear Andrea:
    Which is the maximum value of temperature the new Hot Cat can reach?
    Cheers,
    Gerry

    Andrea Rossi
    July 28th, 2015 at 4:01 PM
    Gerry Carillon:
    We reached 1380°C and resisted for about 10 hours at that temperature, of which 8 hours in ssm.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Well, it’s only logical that we see (big) improvements of the LENR process. I imagine that LENR may also be possible at much higher (3000C+) temperatures and possibly after startup can run in complete SSM mode 100% of the time.

    As we proceed discovering the effect, I expect all sorts of advances in the application of LENR as well as finding new functions.

    Having said all that, 80% of the time in SSM seems to indicate a very high COP. I would not at all be surprised if the COP will turn out to be 50+. Very exiting news.

    • Omega Z

      3000`C, I doubt it but-
      Please no. There is no good reason for temps that high.
      To start, there are few materials that can handle those temps & those that do have very short life cycles.

      Steam turbines run out of steam so to speak at about 900`C regardless what materials are used. Even Gas turbines have to draw in external air to keep the temps from being to extreme & damaging the turbines.

      Spinning a large mass at several 1000 rpm is 1 thing & quite another when heated to extreme temperatures. Things quickly become out of balance & start flying a part.

      There is research on Thermal to Electric conversion that may reach conversion efficiencies of 75% plus theoretically if they can find materials that can withstand temperatures between 1000`C & 1200`C. Of course, this is not of much use if it only lasts a short period of time.

      As to COP, We’ve witnessed what appears to be COP=3(?) with continuous power(Always on) & with SSM of 80% would indicate a possible COP=15. Given 1/3rd conversion efficiency would be 1watt in verse 5watts out. A Gain of 4. If 45% conversion can be achieved with higher temps(Above 700`C steam) could provide about 1watt in verse 7watt out. A Gain of 6.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    Actually, that 80% figure does give some hints as to the “kinds” of COP Rossi is realizing.

    As noted, there has been “speculation” that the plant is seeing a COP of 20-80.

    If an e-cat reactor has a COP of 3 (say like the one from the 3rd party test), then if SSM is 80% of the time, then we talking about a COP of 15. However, if the COP is 4 times during non SSM, then we get a COP of 20. (this is based on assuming that SSM mode produces the same output as when feeding the core power – likely not an ideal assumption on my part). But thus we take the number as an “average” during the SSM mode for this discussion!

    Regardless, the above does hint that an “average” output of 5 times the input energy with 80% SSM will give a COP of 25.

    What the above mean means is the “rumored” COP of 20-80 does seem in the correct ball park for those of us trying to make an educated guess as to the COP the plant is producing.

    At such rates, this is an energy revolution.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada
    kallal@msn.com

    • ecatworld

      I believe that the rumors of COP 20-80 have all been in connection with the 1MW plant, not the Hot Cat under test. I think that Rossi is testing a single Hot Cat reactor, whereas the plant is made up of multiple reactors, which Rossi have said work in a ‘synergy’ that allow for greater COP. That’s my best understanding, anyway.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Yes – a rather good and fair point on your part.
        Rossi did state that the h-cats have a performance “better” than the regular cats.

        I mean, if the h-cat is say in the 10x range, then in SSM we get a COP of 50!

        If a regular e-cat is say 5, then we get that COP of 25 with a SSM mode of 80%.

        And sure, the longer SSM mode is likely due to having lot of units working together.

        So sure, I would much state these numbers are speculative, but they do seem in the relative ball park of previous information “dribbling” out over time. In the search for truth, it is good to see numbers coming out that support previous claims and ones that make “sense” given previous information.

        The REMARKABLE issue here is that if hot-cats work as claimed, then they run well above the magic high temperature that allows water to become super-critical. Super critical water is important since no matter how hard you
        squish and pressurize the water – it remains a gas and thus has very little
        wear and tear on the turbine blades.
        Water as a liquid hitting the blades cases all kinds of wear and tear and loss of performance, and even promotes corrosion.

        As such, these hot-cat temperatures pave the way for large scale production of electricity via traditional steam turbines we use today.

        With such great news, then the only real “waiting” game left here is when commercial delivery of energy begins from Rossi/IH. In a funny way, it kind of like seeing the Wright brothers fly – ok – really works – now when can I go for a ride!

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada
        kallal@msn.com

        • ecatworld

          Good points about supercritical steam, Albert. Yes, I think Rossi really likes to talk about his work, and share what he can. He really is telling us quite a lot. Some say he could be making it all up, but I have my doubts about that. In the end there may not be too many surprises for those who have been following the story closely. Others may be very surprised when it all comes out.

          • mcloki

            Supercritical steam changes everything.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    Actually, that 80% figure does give some hints as to the “kinds” of COP Rossi is realizing.

    As noted, there has been “speculation” that the plant is seeing a COP of 20-80.

    If an e-cat reactor has a COP of 3 (say like the one from the 3rd party test), then if SSM is 80% of the time, then we talking about a COP of 15. However, if the COP is 4 times during non SSM, then we get a COP of 20. (this is based on assuming that SSM mode produces the same output as when feeding the core power – likely not an ideal assumption on my part). But thus we take the number as an “average” during the SSM mode for this discussion!

    Regardless, the above does hint that an “average” output of 5 times the input energy with 80% SSM will give a COP of 25.

    What the above mean means is the “rumored” COP of 20-80 does seem in the correct ball park for those of us trying to make an educated guess as to the COP the plant is producing.

    At such rates, this is an energy revolution.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada
    kallal@msn.com

    • Frank Acland

      I believe that the rumors of COP 20-80 have all been in connection with the 1MW plant, not the Hot Cat under test. I think that Rossi is testing a single Hot Cat reactor, whereas the plant is made up of multiple reactors, which Rossi have said work in a ‘synergy’ that allow for greater COP. That’s my best understanding, anyway.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Yes – a rather good and fair point on your part.
        Rossi did state that the h-cats have a performance “better” than the regular cats.

        I mean, if the h-cat is say in the 10x range, then in SSM we get a COP of 50!

        If a regular e-cat is say 5, then we get that COP of 25 with a SSM mode of 80%.

        And sure, the longer SSM mode is likely due to having lot of units working together.

        So sure, I would much state these numbers are speculative, but they do seem in the relative ball park of previous information “dribbling” out over time. In the search for truth, it is good to see numbers coming out that support previous claims and ones that make “sense” given previous information.

        The REMARKABLE issue here is that if hot-cats work as claimed, then they run well above the magic high temperature that allows water to become super-critical. Super critical water is important since no matter how hard you
        squish and pressurize the water – it remains a gas and thus has very little
        wear and tear on the turbine blades.
        Water as a liquid hitting the blades cases all kinds of wear and tear and loss of performance, and even promotes corrosion.

        As such, these hot-cat temperatures pave the way for large scale production of electricity via traditional steam turbines we use today.

        With such great news, then the only real “waiting” game left here is when commercial delivery of energy begins from Rossi/IH. In a funny way, it kind of like seeing the Wright brothers fly – ok – really works – now when can I go for a ride!

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada
        kallal@msn.com

        • Frank Acland

          Good points about supercritical steam, Albert. Yes, I think Rossi really likes to talk about his work, and share what he can. He really is telling us quite a lot. Some say he could be making it all up, but I have my doubts about that. In the end there may not be too many surprises for those who have been following the story closely. Others may be very surprised when it all comes out.

          • mcloki

            Supercritical steam changes everything.

  • Gerard McEk

    Reading about temperatures of 1380 C, I wonder what kind of heating coil AR is using. We all know that Kanthal A1 does not last so long even at much lower temperatures (1200 C). Would he be using SiC or isn’t he that advanced yet ;-)? Obviously, if only the fuel has this temperature then things may be different.

    • Bob Greenyer

      One of the Inconels we secured melts at 1430 – but no readily available, affordable resistance metals work at these temperatures for very long.

      The real problem is watts per cm The power has to leave the surface of the wire and bulk reactor temperatures may require a very high W/cm.

      But we may be overlooking something, depending on the geometry, the coil may only need to act as a balance/damper for thermal loss and a carrier of triggering/damping RF/Magnetic pulses. If the fuel is generating heat – which is the whole point, it could be that the centre is at 1380ºC whilst the resistance coil at a larger diameter could be running much cooler. This would be consistent with the “coil shadow” – presuming that was due to IR and not merely visible light.

      Note that in the early []=Project Dog Bone=[] experiments, the fin tips were 100ºC lower than the groves – radius, material and form matters as I am sure you know.

      Note that Kanthal A1, if able to radiate to free air, can manage 10 hours.

    • Ted-X

      The good doctor (Rossi) might be using my idea of the toroidal coil (generally, the welding transformer concept). The “transformer-toroid-short-circuited” will work on 50 Hz in Europe and on 60 Hz in the USA/Canada 🙂 The transformer concept is essentially induction heating of the short-circuited toroidal loop (in a welding apparatus, this toroidal loop would be used for “electrode-welding”), while the primary coil has several hundreds of single-wire “turns”.

      • Ted-X

        SUPPLEMENT: The primary coil could be even made of copper!

      • Gerard McEk

        Hi Ted, in principle I agree with your idea that a toroidal coil may work well, but there are some mechanical disadvantages. To make this with of ceramics with fuel is not easy. Because of that I would take the approach of Rossi and Parkhomov. Besides that I would obt for higher block wave frequencies and short high current pulses. (I am an electrical engineer ;-).

  • Gerard McEk

    Reading about temperatures of 1380 C, I wonder what kind of heating coil AR is using. We all know that Kanthal A1 does not last so long even at much lower temperatures (1200 C). Would he be using SiC or isn’t he that advanced yet ;-)? Obviously, if only the fuel has this temperature then things may be different.

    • Bob Greenyer

      One of the Inconels we secured melts at 1430 – but no readily available, affordable resistance metals work at these temperatures for very long.

      The real problem is watts per cm The power has to leave the surface of the wire and bulk reactor temperatures may require a very high W/cm.

      But we may be overlooking something, depending on the geometry, the coil may only need to act as a balance/damper for thermal loss and a carrier of triggering/damping RF/Magnetic pulses. If the fuel is generating heat – which is the whole point, it could be that the centre is at 1380ºC whilst the resistance coil at a larger diameter could be running much cooler. This would be consistent with the “coil shadow” – presuming that was due to IR and not merely visible light.

      Note that in the early []=Project Dog Bone=[] experiments, the fin tips were 100ºC lower than the groves – radius, material and form matters as I am sure you know.

      Note that Kanthal A1, if able to radiate to free air, can manage 10 hours.

      • Kneebiter

        From AR:
        “The coils of the reactor are made with a proprietary alloy, and the inconel is only a doped component of it.”
        and
        ” the resistances do not have a linear response to the temperature in the
        coil of the E-Cat and the behavior is totally different from the copper
        cables, as well as from regular inconel”

        Tells me that at lower temps the resistance wires are more of a heat stimulation and at higher temps more of an electromagnetic stimulation perhaps, and the electromagnetic component may “tame” the effect when in play.

    • Ted-X

      The good doctor (Rossi) might be using my idea of the toroidal coil (generally, the welding transformer concept). The “transformer-toroid-short-circuited” will work on 50 Hz in Europe and on 60 Hz in the USA/Canada 🙂 The transformer concept is essentially induction heating of the short-circuited toroidal loop (in a welding apparatus, this toroidal loop would be used for “electrode-welding”), while the primary coil has several hundreds of single-wire “turns”.

      • Ted-X

        SUPPLEMENT: The primary coil could be even made of copper!

      • Gerard McEk

        Hi Ted, in principle I agree with your idea that a toroidal coil may work well, but there are some mechanical disadvantages. To make this with of ceramics with fuel is not easy. Because of that I would take the approach of Rossi and Parkhomov. Besides that I would obt for higher block wave frequencies and short high current pulses. (I am an electrical engineer ;-).

  • Agaricus

    Mills over-complicates things to the point of impracticality. The only thing that needed to move was water, and the bizarre contraption he came up with to move blobs of gel into the ‘firing line’ was always a non-starter for many reasons. It seems probable that engineering constraints will force him to adopt simpler and simpler solutions until he is more or less back to the concepts already explored by Stanley Meyer and others.

    http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

    http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=536.0

    http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/stanley-meyers-wfc-tec/stanley-meyer-wfc-water-injector-technology/

    My guess would be that he is now injecting water directly into an open reaction chamber containing a fixed catalyst, and discharging his welder across tungsten electrodes within the chamber – IMHO the solution he should have started with.

    Next he will probably be forced by very low efficiencies and waste heat problems to dump the ‘suncell’ lensing and PVs in favour of his original MHD generator idea, or even to use a semi-closed reactor design with a turbine in the exhaust.

  • Nigel Appleton

    Induction heating allows the use of such temperatures – I’ve melted a number of bits of steel tubing with my (quite tiny) induction set-up.
    And, of course, the induction coil itself acts as a heat-exchanger when a coolant is run through it.

  • Nigel Appleton

    Induction heating allows the use of such temperatures – I’ve melted a number of bits of steel tubing with my (quite tiny) induction set-up.
    And, of course, the induction coil itself acts as a heat-exchanger when a coolant is run through it.

  • gregha

    “As I explained in another comment on this blog few hours ago…” I totally missed this, still can’t find it.

  • gregha

    “As I explained in another comment on this blog few hours ago…” I totally missed this, still can’t find it.

  • Bob

    Two observations follow. Both related to testing this “new model”, yet bring up very different questions.
    1) I believe it is said that Rossi is testing the new model in one of the “shipping containers”. He either has an extremely powerful air conditioning / air transfer unit or he is swapping out one of the reactors in the “multi reactor” 1 mw plant. Running this test with an air exposed reactor at this high of a temperature (1380) for 10 hours, would make the container uninhabitable if special air conditioning was not involved.
    If he is changing out a reactor module, then this would be kind of “messing with the customer”, which also relates to my final conclusion below. If the 1 mw plant is under validation testing, it would be kind of odd that one would be doing R&D on core components at the same time. What if a new design reactor malfunctioned in a large way and damaged and shut down the plant. The 365 day run requirement would be in danger! This continuous run time seemed to be such a critical test.
    2) It is a bit of a stretch to think that a “general customer”, i.e. an unrelated business entity to the IH / Rossi enterprise, would allow R&D of a new, unproven and possibly nuclear reactor on their premises. There is no confirmed theory, of which would assist in giving the likely hood of possible chain or run away reaction. Spikes in dangerous radiation have been reported in earlier tests at high temperatures / high COP. Would a customer allow such unknowns be conducted in a building with their employees at hand?
    Therefore a bit more evidence to support my previous conclusion…..
    The secret customer is almost certainly a Darden owned facility. Not that this invalidates anything, (other than gives the skeptics fodder) but it does tarnish the presentation. Why such a deal about “secret customer” and “customer requires 360 day run time” etc. etc. when the customer is actually themselves?
    Rossi’s statements normally are proven true, but most often not in the exact view that most initially read them. Rossi stated he had a “major US company” investing in the eCat. Industrial Heat is hardly a major company, actually a start up specific for the eCat. It depends on how you view it. The backers (Darden) of IH are rather big. But it is a stretch to call IH a major company.
    Rossi stated he had certification on the eCat. Indeed he did! But it was a safety certification that did not certify the eCat worked or even had a use. It simply stated that it was not dangerous under the provided circumstances. Yet his statement was validated, just not in a way most expected.
    The statements about not being able to release information about the eCat due to the “secret customer” does not quite bear out either. The customer does not own the eCat brand and design….. or does he?
    My point being this. Rossi’s statements normally bear out but not in the same view as many expect. I believe many will be disappointed when the customer is revealed. It will be a Darden owned facility, most likely of small size. Possibly even a building / organization that was newly created to test the eCat. I.E. was not even a production facility before.
    This will cause many to ask why the drama? Why the “secret mantle”. The customer CAN control all the strings on the eCat because the customer is Darden himself. Rossi can conduct R&D at the 1mw plant validation site because it is a Darden owned facility.
    This does not make anything Rossi has said untrue, it just casts a bit of a shadow over it. It will give the skeptics heaps of fodder to continue their blah blah. This does not invalidate testing, but it will cause many to suspect it.
    It is a bit of a shame as it seems it could be handled better. 🙁

    • Private Citizen

      “2) a stretch to think that a “general customer”…would allow
      R&D of a new, unproven and possibly nuclear reactor on their
      premises.”

      Point taken. Nor that security for the most disruptive cutting-edge research in the 21st century would be trusted to the back lot of some heat factory.

      Again, also curious that interests with $billion spy apparatus, who readily fight $trillion wars to preserve even a fraction of the energy market, must be far stupider than us, the clutch of geniuses who penetrate to the real Rossi truth here, to allow this go on in secret.

      • Omega Z

        PC
        The problem is to many have tunnel vision. First, the technology isn’t a threat until there is an industrial proven product. There are many technologies being worked on that could be considered a threat that aren’t for this same reason. Nothing yet on the market.

        Energy companies are looking for alternatives themselves. They know that it’s a matter of time that their current products are coming to an end. Big Oil for example. How many 40 to 50 billion barrels of new reserves can be found every year. In 40 years, their products will price themselves into nonexistence. The advent of LENR could actually prolong their existence.

        Why would Big business need to spy on Rossi. Check out the Cherokee funds & their connections. Many of those can merely call Tom Darden & get an update. What’s Rossi’s progress. Will it be 1, 2, or 3 years before it debuts. Think this is not likely-

        Consider those who are already aware of Rossi. NASA, NRL, Boeing, Airbus, Russia, China, India, Sweden, Norway, Etc, etc, etc,…
        The only thing that confuses people here at ECW is if all these entities are aware, How come so silent. It’s Simple. Agenda’s. They want to position themselves before informing the General Public.

        One Big Agenda is Carbon taxes. A little secret. Once a Tax is created, Like a New Government Agency, They are near impossible to get rid of. For the last Year, Certain Entities have been Screaming to get these taxes in place. It would be near impossible to get such taxes enacted once LENR enters the public realm.

        • Private Citizen

          “First, the technology isn’t a threat until there is an industrial proven product.”

          The US govt. has seized over 6,000 patents under the Inventions Secrecy Act. Not proven industrial products, just ideas. Industrial espionage is endemic worldwide. Not stealing finished products, stealing R&D. Conspiracy lore is rife with tales of oil companies buying up nascent competing technologies and just sitting on it. There are also less believable tales of inventors being killed to staunch threatening new tech, certainly there are many here who see a massive conspiracy to discredit P&F (i am among those).

          The argument about those aware of Rossi and withholding info to position themselves because, ah yes, their silence is proof positive of their great achievements, is a classic ad ignoratum. I just might have magic antigravity paint which i will not reveal. How come so silent? Ah ha, proof i have it!

          Of course it is possible to craft an unprovable/disprovable fantasy as to how Rossi has the goods and the govt. is allowing one rogue eccentric to develop it slowly, because something something carbon taxes. There is always a way to preserve faith in the absence of hard evidence. All i ask is the hard evidence.

          We’ll stay tuned here to see what develops.

          • Omega Z

            The “Manhattan Project” was something certain entities watched, but wasn’t considered a serious threat until the 1st successful detonation.

            Like LENR, it wasn’t considered possible by most(Including Einstein). Nor even among most of the participants of the project. A few thought that should a reaction take place, it could wipe out the earth before stopping. Others expanded on that to include the Solar system, the Galaxy & even the Universe.

            The Majority however thought that aside from the high explosive you would get nothing. Some thought maybe a small fizzle. Only after the successful detonation did any realize what they had accomplished many in awe & horror. And Oppenheimer stated- “I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”

            I’m totally aware of the over 6,000 seized patents(Documented) & all the conspiracy theories(Most are BS). Are you aware that the Patent Office submitted Rossi’s technology for security review. Which is strange considering their stance on anything CF/LENR.

            As to TPTB, espionage & If they wanted they could take it. Over the last couple years, I have backtracked many of Rossi’s partners & associations. The “Question” you should ask yourself- Is Rossi already hooked up with the foot soldiers of TPTB. Many of Rossi’s associations would fall into that class. Industrial Heat is quite secretive in it’s membership. Just another strange element in the Rossi saga.

          • Private Citizen

            “The “Manhattan Project” was something certain entities watched, but
            wasn’t considered a serious threat until the 1st successful detonation.”

            Wrong again. Germans and Japanese had their own frantic atomic bomb programs. Soviets were 100% paranoid of the Manhattan project; Stalin reportedly received daily briefings.

            “Like LENR, it [nuclear chain reaction] wasn’t considered possible by most(Including Einstein).”

            Wrong again. Before the Manhattan Project even started, Einstein became convinced of the possibility of the critical nuclear reaction, authored and signed 3 separate letters lettering urging FDR to research and build the A-bomb.

            “In the course of the last four months it has been made probable — through the work of Joliot in France as well as Fermi and Szilárd in America — that it may become possible to set up a nuclear chain reaction in a large mass of uranium, by which vast amounts of power and large quantities of new radium-like elements would be generated. Now it appears almost certain that this could be achieved in the immediate future.”

    • wpj

      Temperature and heat output are quite different; it may only be a 1Kw reactor to test the theory.

    • Omega Z

      “an extremely powerful air conditioning” Is not necessary.

      The Hot-cats we have seen are the equivalent of a single burner on you gas range. A 12,000 Btu AC would be plenty to get the job done.
      It is not the temperature (1380) that is the issue but the total Btu output.

      As to the secret customer, I would be surprised “only” if it were not someone connected to or well known to Tom Darden. As to being kept secret, I can guarantee If it were I, It would be in the NDA agreement. I don’t need a peanut gallery checking out my business. It’s disruptive. Besides that, I don’t want my competitors to be aware.

      A safety certification is just that. It’s certified to be safe when used as instructed. Validation of the technology is a different issue that some may have confused with certification. Being of the nature it is, only a working product in the market will provide validation & even then it wont come quickly.
      ————————————-
      “I believe many will be disappointed when the customer is revealed. It will be a Darden owned facility,”
      ————————————-
      Possibly “some” will be disappointed, but that would be their own unrealistic expectations. However, I doubt it is “Dardens Facility” but quite likely someone from his circle of acquaintances. Darden is for the most part a business man that contracts work to other companies in his brown field projects.

      Also keep in mind that Industrial Heat is made up of 14 entities of which only 2 are publicly known. It could be anyone of those (Secret)entities that have a manufacturing facility. These entities exist as they are designated on the official paper work, but the names are withheld.

      As to the Skeptics, If what Rossi has works, They no longer matter with the exception that Rossi can use them to confuse his competitors. The only down side is he may also confuse his supporters. If the E-cat works, that also wont matter in the long term.

  • Bob

    Two observations follow. Both related to testing this “new model”, yet bring up very different questions.
    1) I believe it is said that Rossi is testing the new model in one of the “shipping containers”. He either has an extremely powerful air conditioning / air transfer unit or he is swapping out one of the reactors in the “multi reactor” 1 mw plant. Running this test with an air exposed reactor at this high of a temperature (1380) for 10 hours, would make the container uninhabitable if special air conditioning was not involved.
    If he is changing out a reactor module, then this would be kind of “messing with the customer”, which also relates to my final conclusion below. If the 1 mw plant is under validation testing, it would be kind of odd that one would be doing R&D on core components at the same time. What if a new design reactor malfunctioned in a large way and damaged and shut down the plant. The 365 day run requirement would be in danger! This continuous run time seemed to be such a critical test.
    2) It is a bit of a stretch to think that a “general customer”, i.e. an unrelated business entity to the IH / Rossi enterprise, would allow R&D of a new, unproven and possibly nuclear reactor on their premises. There is no confirmed theory, of which would assist in giving the likely hood of possible chain or run away reaction. Spikes in dangerous radiation have been reported in earlier tests at high temperatures / high COP. Would a customer allow such unknowns be conducted in a building with their employees at hand?
    Therefore a bit more evidence to support my previous conclusion…..
    The secret customer is almost certainly a Darden owned facility. Not that this invalidates anything, (other than gives the skeptics fodder) but it does tarnish the presentation. Why such a deal about “secret customer” and “customer requires 360 day run time” etc. etc. when the customer is actually themselves?
    Rossi’s statements normally are proven true, but most often not in the exact view that most initially read them. Rossi stated he had a “major US company” investing in the eCat. Industrial Heat is hardly a major company, actually a start up specific for the eCat. It depends on how you view it. The backers (Darden) of IH are rather big. But it is a stretch to call IH a major company.
    Rossi stated he had certification on the eCat. Indeed he did! But it was a safety certification that did not certify the eCat worked or even had a use. It simply stated that it was not dangerous under the provided circumstances. Yet his statement was validated, just not in a way most expected.
    The statements about not being able to release information about the eCat due to the “secret customer” does not quite bear out either. The customer does not own the eCat brand and design….. or does he?
    My point being this. Rossi’s statements normally bear out but not in the same view as many expect. I believe many will be disappointed when the customer is revealed. It will be a Darden owned facility, most likely of small size. Possibly even a building / organization that was newly created to test the eCat. I.E. was not even a production facility before.
    This will cause many to ask why the drama? Why the “secret mantle”. The customer CAN control all the strings on the eCat because the customer is Darden himself. Rossi can conduct R&D at the 1mw plant validation site because it is a Darden owned facility.
    This does not make anything Rossi has said untrue, it just casts a bit of a shadow over it. It will give the skeptics heaps of fodder to continue their blah blah. This does not invalidate testing, but it will cause many to suspect it.
    It is a bit of a shame as it seems it could be handled better. 🙁

    • Private Citizen

      “2) a stretch to think that a “general customer”…would allow
      R&D of a new, unproven and possibly nuclear reactor on their
      premises.”

      Point taken. Nor that security for the most disruptive cutting-edge research in the 21st century would be trusted to the back lot of some heat factory.

      Again, also curious that interests with $billion spy apparatus, who readily fight $trillion wars to preserve even a fraction of the energy market, must be far stupider/more-credulous than us, the clutch of geniuses who penetrate to the real Rossi truth here, to allow this go on unhindered.

      I am prepared to be amazed and dumfounded when this pans out. Soon, please. Rossi should get either a Noble prize or a Hugo award. He deserves one or the other.

      • Omega Z

        PC
        The problem is to many have tunnel vision. First, the technology isn’t a threat until there is an industrial proven product. There are many technologies being worked on that could be considered a threat that aren’t for this same reason. Nothing yet on the market.

        Energy companies are looking for alternatives themselves. They know that it’s a matter of time that their current products are coming to an end. Big Oil for example. How many 40 to 50 billion barrels of new reserves can be found every year. In 40 years, their products will price themselves into nonexistence. The advent of LENR could actually prolong their existence.

        Why would Big business need to spy on Rossi. Check out the Cherokee funds & their connections. Many of those can merely call Tom Darden & get an update. What’s Rossi’s progress. Will it be 1, 2, or 3 years before it debuts. Think this is not likely-

        Consider those who are already aware of Rossi. NASA, NRL, Boeing, Airbus, Russia, China, India, Sweden, Norway, Etc, etc, etc,…
        The only thing that confuses people here at ECW is if all these entities are aware, How come so silent. It’s Simple. Agenda’s. They want to position themselves before informing the General Public.

        One Big Agenda is Carbon taxes. A little secret. Once a Tax is created, Like a New Government Agency, They are near impossible to get rid of. For the last Year, Certain Entities have been Screaming to get these taxes in place. It would be near impossible to get such taxes enacted once LENR enters the public realm.

        • Private Citizen

          “First, the technology isn’t a threat until there is an industrial proven product.”

          So, the Manhattan Project wasn’t a threat of any interest to spies until there was an actual A-bomb? The US govt. has seized over 6,000 patents under the Inventions Secrecy Act. Not proven industrial products, just ideas. Industrial espionage is endemic worldwide. Not stealing finished products, stealing R&D. Men with badges approach university researchers and tell them to stop experimenting in certain ways (i have known this firsthand). Not products, research. Conspiracy lore is rife with tales of oil companies buying up nascent R&D competing technology and just sitting on it. There are also less provable tales of inventors being killed to staunch threatening new tech; certainly there are many here who see a massive conspiracy to discredit P&F (i am among those).

          The argument about those aware of Rossi and withholding info to position themselves because, ah yes, their silence is proof positive of their great achievements, is a classic ad ignoratum. I just might have magic antigravity paint which i will not reveal. How come so silent? Ah ha, proof i have it!

          Of course it is possible to craft an unprovable/disprovable fantasy as to how Rossi has the goods and the PTB are allowing one rogue eccentric to develop it slowly, because something something carbon taxes. There is always a way to preserve faith in the absence of hard evidence. All i ask is the hard evidence.

          We’ll stay tuned here to see what develops.

          • Omega Z

            The “Manhattan Project” was something certain entities watched, but wasn’t considered a serious threat until the 1st successful detonation.

            Like LENR, it wasn’t considered possible by most(Including Einstein). Nor even among most of the participants of the project. A few thought that should a reaction take place, it could wipe out the earth before stopping. Others expanded on that to include the Solar system, the Galaxy & even the Universe.

            The Majority however thought that aside from the high explosive you would get nothing. Some thought maybe a small fizzle. Only after the successful detonation did any realize what they had accomplished many in awe & horror. And Oppenheimer stated- “I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”

            I’m totally aware of the over 6,000 seized patents(Documented) & all the conspiracy theories(Most are BS). Are you aware that the Patent Office submitted Rossi’s technology for security review. Which is strange considering their stance on anything CF/LENR.

            As to TPTB, espionage & If they wanted they could take it. Over the last couple years, I have backtracked many of Rossi’s partners & associations. The “Question” you should ask yourself- Is Rossi already hooked up with the foot soldiers of TPTB. Many of Rossi’s associations would fall into that class. Industrial Heat is quite secretive in it’s membership. Just another strange element in the Rossi saga.

          • Private Citizen

            “The “Manhattan Project” was something certain entities watched, but
            wasn’t considered a serious threat until the 1st successful detonation.”

            Wrong again. Germans and Japanese had their own frantic atomic bomb programs. Soviets were 100% paranoid of the Manhattan project; Stalin reportedly received daily briefings.

            “Like LENR, it [nuclear chain reaction] wasn’t considered possible by most(Including Einstein).”

            Wrong again. Before the Manhattan Project even started, Einstein became convinced of the possibility of the critical nuclear reaction, authored and signed 3 separate letters lettering urging FDR to research and build the A-bomb.

            “In the course of the last four months it has been made probable — through the work of Joliot in France as well as Fermi and Szilárd in America — that it may become possible to set up a nuclear chain reaction in a large mass of uranium, by which vast amounts of power and large quantities of new radium-like elements would be generated. Now it appears almost certain that this could be achieved in the immediate future.”

    • wpj

      Temperature and heat output are quite different; it may only be a 1Kw reactor to test the theory.

      • BillH

        The Hot Cat test appears to be rated at 3.5KW, so scalability might be an issue and a practical reactor some way off.

    • Guru Khalsa

      All good points. I would just like to add that once you have the hot cat connected the video camera pointed on it and presumably the controls in a separate room why would you need to be by its side.
      Second point: we don’t know what the 1MW plant is used for, or if there are any employees anywhere near it, perhaps this is the famous robot plant.
      Lastly while I agree the customer is likely a Darden affiliate, these businesses can be set up legally in a myriad of ways and many times more likely resemble a family that have like minded interests. I have a sister I like but I would never say we are the same person. Also I agree about fuel for the naysayers but that’s nothing new.

    • Omega Z

      “an extremely powerful air conditioning” Is not necessary.

      The Hot-cats we have seen are the equivalent of a single burner on you gas range. A 12,000 Btu AC would be plenty to get the job done.
      It is not the temperature (1380) that is the issue but the total Btu output.

      As to the secret customer, I would be surprised “only” if it were not someone connected to or well known to Tom Darden. As to being kept secret, I can guarantee If it were I, It would be in the NDA agreement. I don’t need a peanut gallery checking out my business. It’s disruptive. Besides that, I don’t want my competitors to be aware.

      A safety certification is just that. It’s certified to be safe when used as instructed. Validation of the technology is a different issue that some may have confused with certification. Being of the nature it is, only a working product in the market will provide validation & even then it wont come quickly.
      ————————————-
      “I believe many will be disappointed when the customer is revealed. It will be a Darden owned facility,”
      ————————————-
      Possibly “some” will be disappointed, but that would be their own unrealistic expectations. However, I doubt it is “Dardens Facility” but quite likely someone from his circle of acquaintances. Darden is for the most part a business man that contracts work to other companies in his brown field projects.

      Also keep in mind that Industrial Heat is made up of 14 entities of which only 2 are publicly known. It could be anyone of those (Secret)entities that have a manufacturing facility. These entities exist as they are designated on the official paper work, but the names are withheld.

      As to the Skeptics, If what Rossi has works, They no longer matter with the exception that Rossi can use them to confuse his competitors. The only down side is he may also confuse his supporters. If the E-cat works, that also wont matter in the long term.

  • artefact

    Frank Acland
    July 30th, 2015 at 9:54 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    1. When you talk about a ‘massive attack’, does this mean making E-Cats available around the world all at once?
    2. Does the ‘massive attack’ involved first Industrial E-Cats (before domestic is available), or both at once?
    3. Will the ‘massive attack’ begin soon after the current test is completed (if positive)?
    Many thanks,
    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    July 30th, 2015 at 11:11 AM
    Frank Acland:
    1- yes
    2- we’ll start with industrial that already are certified
    3- yes
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • artefact

    Frank Acland
    July 30th, 2015 at 9:54 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    1. When you talk about a ‘massive attack’, does this mean making E-Cats available around the world all at once?
    2. Does the ‘massive attack’ involved first Industrial E-Cats (before domestic is available), or both at once?
    3. Will the ‘massive attack’ begin soon after the current test is completed (if positive)?
    Many thanks,
    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    July 30th, 2015 at 11:11 AM
    Frank Acland:
    1- yes
    2- we’ll start with industrial that already are certified
    3- yes
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • clovis ray

      Hi, Frank, nice that he cleared all that up, super news, I like it,

  • Mike Henderson

    Re: Massive Attack.

    Delusional? I want to believe in LENR as much as anybody but this just smells terrible.

    This is a guy who sits in a shipping box and who can scarcely write an intelligible sentence in English. Clearly he does not have staff or resources at his disposal. Massive attacks take organization, capital, charisma, and boots on the ground. There is no evidence for any of that.

    Edison was a rare breed – inventor + industrialist. The best of the rest (Jobs, Gates, Ford, even Musk to some extent) were masters of extending the ideas of others while marshalling the resources to make it big.

  • Agaricus

    If the hydrate state is necessary then a gas hydrate slurry perhaps, such as methane hydrate (clathrate), or even CO2 clathrate. A metal hyrdate would leave deposits that could cause problems unless the metal is fully vapourised during the discharge, although perhaps this wouldn’t matter much during the R&D phase.