European Patent Office Approves Patent for Piantelli’s LENR Method

Thanks to Alainco on the LENR-Forum (here) for this interesting news: The European Patent Office has granted a patent on Francesco Piantelli’s “Method and Apparatus for Generating Energy by Nuclear Reactions of Hydrogen Adsobred by Orbital Capture on a Nanocrystalline Structure of a Metal”.

The documentation of this patent, which was granted on July 24, 2015, and published on August 26, 2015 can be found here: https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP12728780&lng=en&tab=main

In the claims document (see here), the patent refers to using hydrogen and a transition metal (Piantelli has traditionally used nickel) to obtain energy via nuclear reactions — and in claim 2. it refers to “A method according to claim 1, wherein said secondary material (28) comprises Lithium, in particular said Lithium comprising predetermined fractions of 6Li and 7Li isotopes.”

Nickel, hydrogen and lithium are all essential components of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat, who has a patent approved in the US, and now Piantelli has one in Europe. I am not sure if the methods described in each patent are close enough to be in competition or conflict with one another, but I would expect that there will be close scrutiny on both sides of the Atlantic taking place. I am not familiar with the name of the applicants on the Piantelli document — but one looks to be a family member. Nichenergy, based in Milan, Italy is the company that is set up to commercialize Piantelli’s invention — but it is not named on the patent.

  • It is not so clear, but there is many more claims than 1-2 …
    last document just update 1-2…

    the patent may interest replicators as there is many claims about alloys, alternatives, need of amorphous material, … this patent is rich.

    note that another is under opposition of Rossi, and that Piantelli answered with some measurement results and a long lasting experiment…

    • clovis ray

      Hi, guys,
      This trying to trash Dr. Rossi, want work, we all knew he would start getting this kind of static,

  • It is not so clear, but there is many more claims than 1-2 …
    last document just update 1-2…

    the patent may interest replicators as there is many claims about alloys, alternatives, need of amorphous material, … this patent is rich.

    note that another is under opposition of Rossi, and that Piantelli answered with some measurement results and a long lasting experiment…

  • With all of the recent revelations in the patents replications far and wide should be possible now.

  • With all of the recent revelations in the patents replications far and wide should be possible now.

  • Mats002

    Piantelli is as I understand the father of the NiH LENR system. He was doing brain cell research on a Ni rod and had problem cooling it and started to dig deeper into why that happened.

    Later he understood that not only Ni can give the anomaly heat effect, all transition metals can. H is always needed.

    Rossi stands on Piantellis shoulders. I tip my Piantelli hat for Rossi, both have done great things for LENR+

    • Omega Z

      All science is built upon the shoulders of predecessors including Pons and Fleischmann. One could easily & rightfully claim that both Rossi & Piantelli were highly influenced by P&F.

      P&F however, were not alone in their endeavors. They made a premature press conference due to a competing development. And this group was most likely influenced by previous groups involved in the U.S. Military research that started in the mid 50’s. This is not a newly discovered phenomenon.

      The mid 50’s U.S. Military research. A period of “MAJOR” electronics integration into all things military. They were having unexplained anomalous heat issues where there should have been none. Reeking havoc with some of their sophisticated technology.

      As a part of their research, they gathered every piece of information they could find. Going back over 100 years ago. Some of those anomalous heat occurrences have been mentioned here at ECW.

      Their research(The cache of papers I found) involved everything we see with LENR. Various metals under various pressures with various gases & various combinations. The 1st reference of “LENR” was published in 1962, tho the term was probably used before then. Note: They were also working at the Nano level since at least the mid 50’s as well.(Used in the development of the SR-71 Blackbird). The Military has been involved with LENR for about 60 years. Even the term LENR- Low energy Nuclear Reaction is not new.

      • bachcole

        Nice. I don’t suppose you could get copies of those papers to us.

        Remember that many working on LENR now may not have had any idea about that work.

        • Omega Z

          I’m sure I bookmarked some of it. If I find it, I’ll try to round some of it up.
          There is a lot behind paywalls which, is kind of useless. I found a cache of papers about some of it trying to get around those paywalls.

          Warning: The reason i say-If I find it- I’m a hoarder on bookmarks. When I click on it I have to scroll, and scroll and within that are many folders. I should really have a searchable data base. Sadly, I have developed a propensity to procrastinate as I get older. Whats up with that. Time is getting short. The last thing I have time for is procrastinating.

      • Stephen

        It amazes me when i search how much relevant science goes back to the 50s and 60s not just LENR but a lot of what we think of as new physics too. There are tonnes of papers and books out there written at that time that have amazing depth and knowhow.

        Maybe the ability to better understand the ideas and phenomena was limited by the materials and tools available.

        I suppose the big change now is the development of materials and tools along with a better availability of information and informed people in the modern connected world that can bring these ideas into focus.

        In the case in LENR I think it took incredible heroic dedication by all those persons who followed and pursued it the last 30 years, against all trials and adversity, to now when circumstance and technology have at last finally caught up and brought it into the open. They are all part of the amazing story.

      • clovis ray

        HI , omega, if lenr has been around for 60 years , that would be quite a secret, no one has ever in the history of humanity, has ever built a self sustaining reactor, until Dr. Rossi discovered his. if so show me a link to said lenr or cold fusion reactor.

        • Omega Z

          Clovis- just 1 example-This is behind a Pay Wall – 1962
          ————————————————————–
          Theory of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions
          Erich Vogt
          Rev. Mod. Phys. 34, 723 – Published 1 October 1962
          http://journals.aps.org/rmp/abstract/10.1103/RevModPhys.34.723

          • clovis ray

            O MAN,
            One example, and it’snot available, just as i thought,
            Dr. Rossi is the only one, if anyone say’s they have such a device they need to present it, with data, not too much to ask, i think,

      • clovis ray

        Omega, hi
        Your last sentence, disqualify’s your hole statement, as i see it, really,the government can keep a secret for 60 years, if this were true why then do all military planes and vehicles, still run on fossil fuel, mmm, you say all this experimenting was done, what was the result, i can try and push a boulder up a hill all day, if i don’t push it to the top and it rolls back down, i have done nothing, but wasted a lot of time and money, the later is the reason, most of it was done, remember what the hot fussion guys has been doing for soooo long. plenty well known papers, and scientist there as well.

    • clovis ray

      Mats, do you have any links, data, pictures, videos,white papers, or anything that proves , that piantelli has anything. i would like to see them, because i have seen a big zip o, nothing, except his latest effort, which he has copied Dr. Rossi, device, almost exactly with a few exceptions ,he want get away with it, I believe I/H Will bring a law suit . and Dr. Rossi stands on his own two feet, and don’t need shoulders, all he needs is for all the rest to stand aside and let the man that has invented what they couldn’t, do his thing, which is real science, and not all talk.

  • bachcole

    Are the patent offices in a hurry to not look stupid?

  • Bob Greenyer

    Congratulations Francesco – Your intense life sacrifices are being recognised.

    • Fyodor

      Bob,

      Is there information in the patent that goes beyond what you’ve learned from Mr. Piantelli? Is there any progress on replicating his work?

      • Bob Greenyer

        Due to other MFMP engagements – I have not had time to fully read the patent. I will respond on that part of your question when possible.

        I am in regular contact with Francesco – we are at the mercy of his health, energy and other factors. We are doing what can be done.

        We will be looking for Helium in Bob Higgins’ experiment – if it is there, then it supports Piantelli theory over bound Neutron transfer theory (University of Upsalla)

        • Da Phys

          Both reactions lead to He therefore the experiment will not support one theory over another.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Not the favoured one of Upsala University

            7Li + xNi > 6Li + (x+1)Ni

            No helium in that one.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Congratulations Francesco – Your intense life sacrifices are being recognised, I am only sorry that Focardi did not get to see his work fully recognised.

    May not another one of you pass without seeing this great gift realised.

    • clovis ray

      No, need to be sorry bob, Dr. Rossi made a special demo, just for him, to make sure his good friend and colleague, would be able to see the their kitty perring.

    • Fyodor

      Bob,

      Is there information in the patent that goes beyond what you’ve learned from Mr. Piantelli? Is there any progress on replicating his work?

      • Bob Greenyer

        Due to other MFMP engagements – I have not had time to fully read the patent. I will respond on that part of your question when possible.

        I am in regular contact with Francesco – we are at the mercy of his health, energy and other factors. We are doing what can be done.

        We will be looking for Helium in Bob Higgins’ experiment – if it is there, then it supports Piantelli theory over bound Neutron transfer theory (University of Upsalla)

        • Da Phys

          Both reactions lead to He therefore the experiment will not support one theory over another.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Not the favoured one of Upsala University

            7Li + xNi > 6Li + (x+1)Ni

            No helium in that one.

  • Hank Mills

    The Seven Steps To Unlimited E-Cat Energy

    Constructing an E-Cat replication is not exactly simple: there are countless issues to consider. However, the very basic steps are now obvious to those who have kept up with the saga, read the patents, and studied the replications that have taken place so far.

    1 – Get a reactor tube composed of stainless non-magnetic steel or alumina.

    2 – Collect the fuel ingredients: elemental lithium powder, carbonyl nickel, and lithium aluminum hydride.

    3 – Bake the nickel for a period of time at 200C or above to remove water and increase porosity, grind the LiAlH4 to a smaller particle size, and mix the ingredients together (remember to abide by all safety precautions). Use a glove box with an atmosphere that does not react with lithium, wear safety equipment, make sure you are in a laboratory environment, etc.)

    4 – Place fuel in tube and seal ends with compression fittings, ceramic putty, plugs, etc.

    5 – Wrap with resistance wire and make sure that there will not be a short.

    6 – Apply stimulation in the form of heat.

    7 – Apply stimulation in the foem of a varying electric field: pulsed DC, chopped AC, squarewaves.

    With enough testing, you should detect excess heat.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Not much above 200C for the Nickel Bake – Significant oxides will form above 250ºC

      Pelletise the fuel like shown in the video here –

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10nStfVm8EQ

      this will make it easier to load and increases fuel density whilst avoiding separation when tapping cell. It will allow a much lower area to volume ratio and you can put your dead volume elsewhere in the cell.

      • clovis ray

        Bob, with all due respect, i don’t think this is a good idea, because for what i have learned is surface area of the nickel is key, and by compressing it, you reduce that surface area, the nickel needs to be configured as lose as possible, this guarantees that the particles get maximum exposure , it is still not known just how much nickel is needed precisely, but we do know it has to be loaded with H, And it must have some room all around it’s surface, . as revealed in Dr. Rossi first reactor , it had a wafer type design, this was to give the nickel plenty room for adsorption , with many layers, if i were to replicate, i think i would choose this design, just my 2 cents,

        • Bob Greenyer

          I was told this is what Rossi does. It is what the Russians do that I visited. Making it into pellets still leaves a LOT of space free. Keeps things homogenous, aids handling, increases safety etc.

        • Bob Greenyer

          I am not sure that any material loss of surface area will occur. We have to bear in ind that nano structures are phenomenally strong and both LiAlH4 and Li are far softer – air will be pushed out yes – that is of little interest.

    • Erik Petersen

      What does a varying electric field (step 7) accomplish? Why does it work? Is it something to do with scalar waves? Hutchinson effect?

      I enjoy reading all of your posts Hank, thanks for the great insights.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    Gee kind of feels like the snowball is starting to roll down the mountain and bouncing a bit. This all good news!

    Regards
    Albert Kallal
    Edmonton Alberta Canada

  • Daniel Maris

    Excellent news. Very positive.

    • Kevmo

      Let the patent wars begin.

      • Paul

        Perhaps for Rossi Europe is game over now

        • clovis ray

          hi, Paul,
          Why would you say that, pantelli has nothing, if he did he would have already had it out there, nope, when i see a working model that ss, like Dr. Rossi has been showing a working model of for years, no,it just all talk, nothing else,
          The first working model you get will be from leonardo corp, there will be a few that tries to steal his discovery, but i would guess,Dr. Rossi is way smarter than anyone in this field, bar non, sure their will be a few garage mechanic’s that will try,and build , i may try myself, just for fun, once all is known, but you and i will be able to pick one up late next year, maybe a little later, for a song and sing it yourself, first we get a hearer, that is what is most needed, then electricty, and cooling, what a great plan, and one we can see,a world saving product from.

          • Paul

            Hi Clovis, Piantelli had and has self-sustaining Lenr reactors, but most important is that he owns the first patent, prior to Rossi’s. For this reason, Leonardo or IH tried to buy his company, according to my sources. If his patent was not a key patent, why the American would be so interested in it? This second patent for Piantelli closes the circle. His company owns what is most important, the patent and the priority.

          • clovis ray

            Well, i guess a guy, like mr. P, can dream, because i think Dr R will cut him down to size real quick, lol

          • Omega Z

            Paul: I think these early patents are just a basic framework & are not defensible in themselves, i.e., You can’t patent LENR itself. You can’t patent nickel, hydrogen or lithium.

            However, once a basic framework has been laid out, they can ply additional patents covering a specific or unique process. Rossi’s patent doesn’t really cover the fuel, but everything apparatus. i.e., Replicate his device & face patent infringement. Look for additional patents to cover unique processes to make the fuel viable.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I understand also that IH / Rossi are trying to find someway to buy the patent(s). Is simply does not make sense for them to want to do this and to continue to contest Piantelli’s patent applications if there is no point in doing so.

            I would rather that there was a patent sharing agreement. Because everything owned stateside might allow the US to invoke their “strategic” laws that would prevent anyone that trades with the US from using the tech if it was deemed strategically important – and well, I think that the most important invention ever might qualify – so it is of paramount importance that one doesn’t wish for this outcome but rather one that allows faster worldwide adoption of the technology.

          • psi2u2

            “I would rather that there was a patent sharing agreement.”

            Yep.

        • clovis ray

          Congratulation for the goal, a milestone for energy production and the enviroment. I’m following the story from the beginning, the steady progress but also the difficulties.
          Now there is patent protection. Good job.
          I’m asking Andrea Rossi when you feel your device can hit the market in sizes 50 to 100 kW. That size would be useful for heating buildings. Would it be possible in a couple of years?
          Giuseppe Castrogiovanni

          Andrea Rossi

          September 4th, 2015 at 7:50 AM

          Giuseppe Castrogiovanni:
          The modules of the industrial plant in operation in the factory of a Customer are 250 kW modules. From here to modules of 50/100 kW the step is not high indeed.
          The answer is: yes.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Not much above 200C for the Nickel Bake – Significant oxides will form above 250ºC

    Pelletise the fuel like shown in the video here –

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10nStfVm8EQ

    this will make it easier to load and increases fuel density whilst avoiding separation when tapping cell. It will allow a much lower area to volume ratio and you can put your dead volume elsewhere in the cell.

  • clovis ray

    Well, i don’t really know what to say about, pantellis europe patent, it would seem that he will be stepping on the toe’s of the leonardo corp, wouldn’t you think, i would like to hear what Dr. Rossi has to says about it, i personally don’t think he pianelli or the russians have a dam thing, lol, they sure as heck never demonstrated it, if they have i haven’t seen it, or know anyone that can prove their claims .

    • Paul

      Perhaps for Rossi Europe is game over now

      • clovis ray

        hi, Paul,
        Why would you say that, pantelli has nothing, if he did he would have already had it out there, nope, when i see a working model that ss, like Dr. Rossi has been showing a working model of for years, no,it just all talk, nothing else,
        The first working model you get will be from leonardo corp, there will be a few that tries to steal his discovery, but i would guess,Dr. Rossi is way smarter than anyone in this field, bar non, sure their will be a few garage mechanic’s that will try,and build , i may try myself, just for fun, once all is known, but you and i will be able to pick one up late next year, maybe a little later, for a song and sing it yourself, first we get a heater, that is what is most needed, then electricity, and cooling, what a great plan, and one we can see,a world saving product from.

        • Paul

          Hi Clovis, Piantelli had and has self-sustaining Lenr reactors, but most important is that he owns the first patent, prior to Rossi’s. For this reason, Leonardo or IH tried to buy his company, according to my sources. If his patent was not a key patent, why the American would be so interested in it? This second patent for Piantelli closes the circle. His company owns what is most important, the patent and the priority.

          • clovis ray

            Well, i guess a guy, like mr. P, can dream, because i think Dr R will cut him down to size real quick, lol

          • Omega Z

            Paul: I think these early patents are just a basic framework & are not defensible in themselves, i.e., You can’t patent LENR itself. You can’t patent nickel, hydrogen or lithium.

            However, once a basic framework has been laid out, they can ply additional patents covering a specific or unique process. Rossi’s patent doesn’t really cover the fuel, but everything apparatus. i.e., Replicate his device & face patent infringement. Look for additional patents to cover unique processes to make the fuel viable.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I understand also that IH / Rossi are trying to find someway to buy the patent(s). Is simply does not make sense for them to want to do this and to continue to contest Piantelli’s patent applications if there is no point in doing so.

            I would rather that there was a patent sharing agreement. Because everything owned stateside might allow the US to invoke their “strategic” laws that would prevent anyone that trades with the US from using the tech if it was deemed strategically important – and well, I think that the most important invention ever might qualify – so it is of paramount importance that one doesn’t wish for this outcome but rather one that allows faster worldwide adoption of the technology.

          • psi2u2

            “I would rather that there was a patent sharing agreement.”

            Yep.

      • clovis ray

        Congratulation for the goal, a milestone for energy production and the enviroment. I’m following the story from the beginning, the steady progress but also the difficulties.
        Now there is patent protection. Good job.
        I’m asking Andrea Rossi when you feel your device can hit the market in sizes 50 to 100 kW. That size would be useful for heating buildings. Would it be possible in a couple of years?
        Giuseppe Castrogiovanni

        Andrea Rossi

        September 4th, 2015 at 7:50 AM

        Giuseppe Castrogiovanni:
        The modules of the industrial plant in operation in the factory of a Customer are 250 kW modules. From here to modules of 50/100 kW the step is not high indeed.
        The answer is: yes.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

      • bachcole

        Perhaps, close.

      • clovis ray

        NOT

  • Let the patent wars begin.

  • Paul

    Congratulations to Piantelli, because with Focardi is the father of Ni-H reactions. Very sad for Focardi’s family, and especially the daughter who is a physicist, shamefully forgotten by both Rossi and Piantelli. Smart people but not from the human point of view…

    • psi2u2

      Rossi has NOT forgotten Focardi, but has often spoken with great fondness of Focardi’s essential role in the discovery process. Rossi hired Focardi to try to disprove some of is earliest positive results. When he could not, they became close collaborators.

  • Paul

    Congratulations to Piantelli, because with Focardi is the father of Ni-H reactions. Very sad for Focardi’s family, and especially the daughter who is a physicist, shamefully forgotten by both Rossi and Piantelli. Smart people but not from the human point of view…

    • bachcole

      Did someone call me?

      The problem with so-called smart (which I am) is that it is exteriorized, meaning that it is a lot of intellect and being excellent at dealing with objects and objective things (like science), but it can be a challenge for being good at subjective things, like one’s own feelings and the feelings of others (which has been a happy challenge that I have taken up for 46 years now). So it is often the case that so called smart people are difficult with social situations. The smarter one is, the more the trend is that they have difficulty with other people. Of course this is not a hard and fast rule, like my own struggle to be both. And my guess is that Mike McKubre is good at both. Hopefully I’m getting there.

      • Mats002

        Such as choosing the alias front-zip???

        • Mats002

          Anyway, I agree Focardi is part of this pie. I salute him and his family. He was the interface between the hard headed other ones I guess. The perfect mix but the diplomate never gets the prize, unfortunatly.

        • bachcole

          eh?

      • MWerner

        I think you might like the T-Shirt that says:
        “I’ll try to be nicer, if you try to be smarter.”
        🙂

      • psi2u2

        Bachole, as usual, your wisdom shines through. I concur in your assessment of McKubre. He strikes me as a very well rounded and likable person, better at the social negotiation than many who are just as smart intellectually.

    • psi2u2

      Rossi has NOT forgotten Focardi, but has often spoken with great fondness of Focardi’s essential role in the discovery process. Rossi hired Focardi to try to disprove some of is earliest positive results. When he could not, they became close collaborators.

  • kenko1

    Anybody care to guess on how long it will take to go from patents to products now that several LENR type patents have been issued? The clock is now ticking….

  • The patent text is quite outspoken on nuclear reactions. I wonder if EPO has taken a more open position with regard to LENR in recent years. At least compared to US Patent Office, but thats an easy target to beat… Note in any case that Piantelli describes the reaction. Rossi doesn’t. But then, on the other hand, Piantelli might be wrong.

    • Mats002

      If the underlying process is SPP:s as Axil advocates…

      • Mark S.

        SPP:s ??? What’s that mean?

        • Omega Z

          From the “Pseudo Urban Dictionary”
          Superior Phlatulence Production System. 😉

        • Mats002

          SPP mean Surface Plasmonic Polaritons. LENR research show quite clear that LENR is a surface phenomenom at the outmost layer of a metal lattice (and possible other structures of atoms, but that is another story),

          This short article and the few first comments describes it: http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/04/01/plasmonics-with-a-twist-taming-optical-tornadoes-on-the-nanoscale-axil-axil/

          And this short video from Simeon Hein visualize it vividly:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIdQ9v9GM9o

          • Private Citizen

            Simeon Hein, if you do read E-CatWorld, please don’t use the W. Bush ignoramus mispronunciation, “nuke-you-lur,” it should be “nuke-lee-ur.”

            Call me pedantic, but that just grates.

        • Dods

          If i have done my homework correct I think I first heard of SPP from the Widom Larsen theory.
          http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/WLTheory.shtml

          • Bob Greenyer

            See above… Martin Fleischmann has his hands all over this.

          • Bob Greenyer

            The New Fire MK1 – A controllable reaction driven and moderated by heat, pressure, element ratios, phase states and morphology…

            by Bob Greenyer

            https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject/posts/1035061893191176

          • Stephen

            Intersting ideas about the process it looks pausable I think. I like the Piantellis H- ideas and although I’m not yet certain about which of the mechanisms explain LENR I think Proton absorption best explains some of the data and evidence and is most likely occurring somehow.

            Regarding your analysis I wonder if the following is playing a part

            Regarding the ratio of Li to LiAlH4 2/3 in Andrea Rossi’s patent.

            In the patent he also mentions that LiAlH4 breaks down during heating in 3 phases.

            1. 3LiAlH4 -> Li3AlH6 + 2Al + 3H2 which occurs at about 150 deg C
            2. 2Li3AlH6 -> 6LiH + 2Al + 3H2 which occurs at about 200 deg C
            3. 2LiH + 2Al -> 2LiAl + H2 which occurs at about 400 deg C

            And that (3) is reversible at certain higher temperatures and lower pressures e.g. 500 deg C at 0.25 bar.

            I suppose these reactions happen at different temperatures at higher or lower pressures.

            The extra lithium seems to be just enough to mop up the Al releases in phase 1. I wonder if this is a coincidence. Would the Al be preferentially absorbed by the Li rather than the Hydrogen released in the same phase at the initial high pressures at these temperatures. if so perhaps it prevents the Aluminium melting and keeps it in place for later phases in the heat up.

            On a separate point I just read that certain amounts and types of nano nickel particles can prevent the melting of LiAlH4 before H2 Desorbtion occurs:

            https://books.google.nl/books?id=FmH7-Yw7K1sC&pg=PT602&lpg=PT602&dq=li3alh6+and+ni&source=bl&ots=p0gp6S5OZY&sig=uez4esZRPWHKycS8Dh7DX2F53rA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCMQ6AEwA2oVChMI0vyT-9TbxwIVpb1yCh3TlAbT#v=onepage&q=li3alh6%20and%20ni&f=false

            I had a discussion with Ecco on Freethinkers Replication discussion on the LENR Forum and he found this more complete link

            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925838810018372

            It seems that milling the fuel with the right amount of nickel also changes the LiAlH4 somehow in particular stops it melting.

            Else where I have read that Iron has been used when milling LiAlH4 with similar results.

          • Bob Greenyer

            As I have said before, if you add more Li – you can get the melting point of LiAl down to 200-300ºC, see the LiAl phase diagram

            http://pruffle.mit.edu/3.00/Lecture_36_web/img7.gif

          • Eyedoc

            Does it seem like the form of the extra Lithium matters ? ( ie wire, foil, powder, granular)

          • Bob Greenyer

            not sure it does – BUT having fluorine stabilised Li powder would allow the whole lot to be pressed into pellets which would then have good macro level homogeneity before the first heat up. Once the Ni is sintered – it stays that shape.

          • Paolo Savaris

            When you say “stabilized lithium fluoride” do you mean exactly?
            Maybe you’re making the assumption that lithium is in pellets or granules and not in the form of dust?
            In your opinion with a melting temperature lower than 200 ° C is actually required lithium powder?

          • Bob Greenyer

            In my opinion – no, except id Rossi Pre-Presses his fuel like the russians showed me and we published. I think it has merits as it will allow the nickel to sinter into a low surface area to volume pellet and having stabilised Lithium powder would facilitate having the Lithium evenly and proportionally distributed with the Al that comes from the LiAlH4 and which takes part in what I consider a key revisable process.

            When you have free Lithium and it melts, it readily flows away from the Nickel if allowed to and wets to any surface (like the inside of the reactor) that is available to it. This would leave a less than optimal Li : Al ratio wetted to the sintered nickel – something that surface tension (and other aspects) appears to hold in place.

            Open replicators have already reported that lithium is difficult to handle and put in to the mix. The stabilised lithium would make doing this simpler and would also allow the Lithium to be legally transported by air..

            From this:

            http://www.fmclithium.com/Portals/FMCLithiumEnergy/Content/Docs/SLMP%20Marketing%20Sheet%20Final.pdf

            “SLMP is safe to handle in a dry room atmosphere. Studies conducted at -40oC
            dew point show less than 1% loss in metallic lithium content after 50 hours.
            This stability results from a precisely controlled passivation layer ranging from
            10- to 200-nanometers. SLMP is not pyrophoric. It can be safely transported
            by air and sea without requiring traditional safety measures.”

          • Stephen

            There is something potentially interesting about Flourine. It’s naturally occurring isotope F19 like Lithium 7 has low level nucleus energy levels. Although a bit aside topic from your discussion here This might be interesting if gamma absorption is important especially for low energy gamma is produced and absorbed. If this plays a part for Lithium 7 it may also play a part for Fluorine. Of course on deeper reflection more factors need to be taken in to account such as probability of encounter, energy state resonance, and conservation of states such as parity and spin in the nucleus etc but if sufficient encounters of diverse or tuned States can be made more probable it may play some part. Note in the Andrea Rossi and Norman Cook paper they mentioned that the Lithium 7 nucleus needed to be already excited to its first energy state above ground state in order to absorb a Proton and split to 2 Helium nuclei. They did not mention how it was energised to this state though so they did not imply it was necessarily energised by gamma. Interestingly for Li7 the first energy state is about 477keV and spin parity of about 1/2 – (and a ground level spin of 3/2 -) which is below 511 keV for positron annihilation. I’m not sure if the remaining 34 keV could be accounted for some how so the gamma is still absorbed or if a spin of 1/2. – make absorption of a proton more likely or if it is just the geometry of the nucleus. Flourine low nucleus energy levels are about 110 keV and 197 keV, much lower than 511 keV so I suppose it will be harder to to see how this can achieve resonance in this case unless thegamma is already down converted somehow or some mechanism allows the remaining energy to be accounted for somehow.

          • Stephen

            Note that like LiH, according to Wikipedia LiF using enriched Li 7 and in particular a variant including a mixture of Beryllium Flouride FLiBe is also used in nuclear reactors as a coolant I understand it is also somehow efficient at abosrbing neutrons.

          • Bob Greenyer

            haha, I’m not offended and I deeply believe in my insignificance!

            I respect your right to disagree, we’d get no where with a continuous stream of group think.

            Thanks for you too.

          • Bob Greenyer

            dependent on system and circumstance (hmmm – that sounds like the title of a period drama)

          • psi2u2

            I have been convinced (as someone without the technical training to understand all the details) that what we are looking at is probably an entire class of new reactions, not a single phenomenon. For what it is worth, that might explain the diversity of observational data. Do you agree, Bob?

          • Bob Greenyer

            Yes – it is certainly a very complex system

        • Bob Greenyer

          Well – and your gonna love this… it came out of work that Martin Fleischmann did at Southampton University in the UK – a paper that according to wikipedia has been cited over 2400 times.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-enhanced_Raman_spectroscopy

  • The patent text is quite outspoken on nuclear reactions. I wonder if EPO has taken a more open position with regard to LENR in recent years. At least compared to US Patent Office, but thats an easy target to beat… Note in any case that Piantelli describes the reaction. Rossi doesn’t. But then, on the other hand, Piantelli might be wrong.

    • Mats002

      If the underlying process is SPP:s as Axil advocates…

      • Mark S.

        SPP:s ??? What’s that mean?

        • Omega Z

          From the “Pseudo Urban Dictionary”
          Superior Phlatulence Production System. 😉

        • Mats002

          SPP mean Surface Plasmonic Polaritons. LENR research show quite clear that LENR is a surface phenomenom at the outmost layer of a metal lattice (and possible other structures of atoms, but that is another story),

          This short article and the few first comments describes it: http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/04/01/plasmonics-with-a-twist-taming-optical-tornadoes-on-the-nanoscale-axil-axil/

          And this short video from Simeon Hein visualize it vividly:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIdQ9v9GM9o

          • Private Citizen

            Simeon Hein, if you do read E-CatWorld, please don’t use the W. Bush ignoramus mispronunciation, “nuke-you-lur,” it should be “nuke-lee-ur.”

            Call me pedantic, but that just grates.

            And you should have stopped before you related LENR to crop circles, which remarkably are always done on a scale & complexity achievable by a crew of humans with boards and ropes.

        • Dods

          If i have done my homework correct I think I first heard of SPP from the Widom Larsen theory.
          http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/WLTheory.shtml

          • Bob Greenyer

            See above… Martin Fleischmann has his hands all over this.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Well – and your gonna love this… it came out of work that Martin Fleischmann did at Southampton University in the UK – a paper that according to wikipedia has been cited over 2400 times.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-enhanced_Raman_spectroscopy

  • clovis ray

    Hi, guys,
    This trying to trash Dr. Rossi, want work, we all knew he would start getting this kind of static,

  • Allan Kiik

    Have you noticed this gem:
    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=885&cpage=18#comment-1115119

    Hard to ignite and harder to control LENR+ just got a way more useful source, Rossi says he has invented The Throttle for ECatX!

  • Da Phys

    Piantelli’s theory is by far the most compelling of all theories of LENR. It can explain excess heat in both encapsulated Ni-H-Li systems and Pd-D-Li electrolytic F&P cells. The fact that several of its predictions are backed up by experiments and now protected by a patent put Nichenergy in a leader position in LENR.
    Also, Piantelli’s patents are more detailed than Rossi’s patent, and more importantly were filed before. On the other hand Rossi acquired these last years some knowhow to produce sustainable heat that Nichenergy most probably does not have. Therefore, if Rossi and IH plan to start selling E-Cats from 2016, they should first find a business agreement with Piantelli, the market is large enough for that. Otherwise the risk will be high for them to face lawsuits that will advantage other players and slow down the adoption of LENR worldwide.

    • Bob Greenyer

      This is now “unstoppable”

      There was a guy in my home county in the UK, for 30 years he had been inventing and patenting, all the time he was told by his wife to go out and get a proper job. Finally, they divorced she could not take it any longer. Within two years, he was paid something like $80million by a patent litigation company for his patent for rotary control as had been used without compensation in the original iPods. He now runs a seed capital firm that helps inventors patent their ideas. Not sure what his x is up to.

      People will make something – lawyers will argue who should be paid – but be sure that the lawyers will alway be paid.

      Whatever – the train has left the station.

      • clovis ray

        yep, left the station, leaving pantelli standing on the platform with no ticket. you better , get on the right side before you lose it all, Dr. rossi has given us all that is needed to replicate his device, but piantelli and your self does not know how to make it work and what has pantilli given us , a big goose egg. I will say pantelli describes Dr. rossi’s device pretty well, after Dr. Rossi showed everyone how, in his U.S. patent.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Rossi has not described where the proton projectiles come from – unless I missed that. It maybe that Piantelli is wrong, but he has shown by peer reviewed paper, cloud chamber and calculation how to create proton projectiles and Unified Gravity Corporations team have since 2006 shown that these create the fusion/fission reaction in Lithium responsible for the bulk of the energy yield in the Rossi reactor.

          Rossi made several key novelties that I have recognised in my points for debate today, but this didn’t all start from nothing.

          Without the protons ejected from clusters of nano-structured transition metal, there is no Lithium reaction – that is unless the bound neutron theory bares out, but Rossi/Cook are not claiming that reaction – and when pushed, Rossi said he sees Helium, which implies the 1H + 7Li > 2 X He.

          In the end it does not matter how this works, just that it does. The truth will out in the fullness of time and no amount of skirting around the facts will change that.

          As Albert Einstein once said “If the facts don’t fit the theory, change the facts”

          eh hem.

          • clovis ray

            Bob,hi.
            what you say, may be correct, I don’t claim to be a scientist, but i do have some common sense, all that you Talked about seems not to follow all i have learn in the last half decade , seem to me you guys are trying to say, that the rossi effect, is nuclear, thats the fastest way to kill ,the E-CAT,and any other thing that might be brought forth.
            Did you notice how many times Dr. Rossi used the word nuclear, or atomic for that matter, although, i do believe there is a small bit when it starts,
            but is not the main event,.

          • Bob Greenyer

            The Fuel>Ash of all studied Rossi runs and that of Parkhomov, Celani, Mitsubishi, Piantelli, Focardi, Mastromatteo, Mizuno etc etc show transmutations. That is Nuclear, we can avoid talking about it, but we can’t deny the evidence.

            A way to counter the fear of the ‘N’ word is to educate about how it is all around us, in bananas, in the soil (like Kerala) and more specifically and in direct correlation with Ni base LENR, drives the heat that keeps the earth warm inside. It is over us, under us and we eat it. We live in a Nuclear world and we need to be comfortable with that.

            Bashing things to gather at high energies is just nasty and that is the nuclear we should stop.

          • clovis ray

            BOB.All those people, has found nuclear radiation only on start up, this is well known, but i feel it is not the main reaction,
            You said educate the public, yah, good luck with that, you mention nuclear power and people run to the hills, it is because of not knowing, but still.
            i thought piantilli let his patent run out, why has he waited for so long,, the reason i believe is he has nothing,

          • Bob Greenyer

            Piantelli had not let his patent run out, it has been awarded.

            People fear the unknown – this will be known in time.

          • bachcole

            But are all of those transmutations the same, or are they all over the place?

          • Bob Greenyer

            dependent on system and circumstance (hmmm – that sounds like the title of a period drama)

          • psi2u2

            I have been convinced (as someone without the technical training to understand all the details) that what we are looking at is probably an entire class of new reactions, not a single phenomenon. For what it is worth, that might explain the diversity of observational data. Do you agree, Bob?

          • bachcole

            It actually helps to not have technical training for this perception because you don’t get too entangled with the little picture. I agree with you, ps2u2.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Yes – it is certainly a very complex system

    • clovis ray

      the Rossi effect, E-CAT will not be injured in anyway, people,myself included will be getting a safe,convenient. and economical device,next year,how quick is that , thank you Dr. Rossi. for your great invention, and getting it out to your customers in a record breaking time, how many will home depot be wanting, as well as WAL-MART smile.

  • Bob Greenyer

    The New Fire MK1 – A controllable reaction driven and moderated by heat, pressure, element ratios, phase states and morphology…

    by Bob Greenyer

    https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject/posts/1035061893191176

    • Stephen

      Intersting ideas about the process it looks pausable I think. I like the Piantellis H- ideas and although I’m not yet certain about which of the mechanisms explain LENR I think Proton absorption best explains some of the data and evidence and is most likely occurring somehow.

      Regarding your analysis I wonder if the following is playing a part

      Regarding the ratio of Li to LiAlH4 2/3 in Andrea Rossi’s patent.

      According to the patent and wiki LiAlH4 breaks down during heating in 3 phases.

      1. 3LiAlH4 -> Li3AlH6 + 2Al + 3H2 which occurs at about 150 deg C
      2. 2Li3AlH6 -> 6LiH + 2Al + 3H2 which occurs at about 200 deg C
      3. 2LiH + 2Al -> 2LiAl + H2 which occurs at about 400 deg C

      And that (3) is reversible at certain higher temperatures and lower pressures e.g. 500 deg C at 0.25 bar.

      I suppose these reactions happen at different temperatures at higher or lower pressures.

      The extra lithium seems to be just enough to mop up the Al releases in phase 1. I wonder if this is a coincidence. Would the Al be preferentially absorbed by the Li rather than the Hydrogen released in the same phase at the initial high pressures at these temperatures. if so perhaps it prevents the Aluminium melting and keeps it in place for later phases in the heat up.

      On a separate point certain amounts of nano nickel particles can prevent the melting of LiAlH4 before H2 Desorbtion occurs:

      https://books.google.nl/books?id=FmH7-Yw7K1sC&pg=PT602&lpg=PT602&dq=li3alh6+and+ni&source=bl&ots=p0gp6S5OZY&sig=uez4esZRPWHKycS8Dh7DX2F53rA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCMQ6AEwA2oVChMI0vyT-9TbxwIVpb1yCh3TlAbT#v=onepage&q=li3alh6%20and%20ni&f=false

      I had a discussion with Ecco on Freethinkers Replication discussion on the LENR Forum about this and he found this more complete link

      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925838810018372

      It seems that milling the fuel with the right amount of nickel also changes the LiAlH4 somehow and in particular stops it melting.

      Else where I have read that Iron has been used when milling LiAlH4 with similar results.

      • Bob Greenyer

        As I have said before, if you add more Li – you can get the melting point of LiAl down to 200-300ºC, see the LiAl phase diagram

        http://pruffle.mit.edu/3.00/Lecture_36_web/img7.gif

        Stoichiometric (50/50) LiAl as comes from LiAlH4 has actually the highest melting point – so for sure you want to add more Li – just to make the system work nice – to allow the formation and removal of H- at will.

        • Eyedoc

          Does it seem like the form of the extra Lithium matters ? ( ie wire, foil, powder, granular)

          • Bob Greenyer

            not sure it does – BUT having fluorine stabilised Li powder would allow the whole lot to be pressed into pellets which would then have good macro level homogeneity before the first heat up. Once the Ni is sintered – it stays that shape.

          • Paolo Savaris

            When you say “stabilized lithium fluoride” do you mean exactly?
            Maybe you’re making the assumption that lithium is in pellets or granules and not in the form of dust?
            In your opinion with a melting temperature lower than 200 ° C is actually required lithium powder?

          • Bob Greenyer

            In my opinion – no, except id Rossi Pre-Presses his fuel like the russians showed me and we published. I think it has merits as it will allow the nickel to sinter into a low surface area to volume pellet and having stabilised Lithium powder would facilitate having the Lithium evenly and proportionally distributed with the Al that comes from the LiAlH4 and which takes part in what I consider a key revisable process.

            When you have free Lithium and it melts, it readily flows away from the Nickel if allowed to and wets to any surface (like the inside of the reactor) that is available to it. This would leave a less than optimal Li : Al ratio wetted to the sintered nickel – something that surface tension (and other aspects) appears to hold in place.

            Open replicators have already reported that lithium is difficult to handle and put in to the mix. The stabilised lithium would make doing this simpler and would also allow the Lithium to be legally transported by air..

            From this:

            http://www.fmclithium.com/Portals/FMCLithiumEnergy/Content/Docs/SLMP%20Marketing%20Sheet%20Final.pdf

            “SLMP is safe to handle in a dry room atmosphere. Studies conducted at -40oC
            dew point show less than 1% loss in metallic lithium content after 50 hours.
            This stability results from a precisely controlled passivation layer ranging from
            10- to 200-nanometers. SLMP is not pyrophoric. It can be safely transported
            by air and sea without requiring traditional safety measures.”

          • Stephen

            There is something potentially interesting at nucleus level about Fluorine. It’s naturally occurring isotope F19 like Lithium 7 has low level nucleus energy levels. Although a bit aside topic from your discussion here This might be interesting if gamma absorption or generation is important especially for low energy gamma is produced and absorbed. If this plays a part for Lithium 7 it may also play a part for Fluorine. Of course on deeper reflection more factors need to be taken in to account such as probability of encounter, energy state resonance, and conservation of states such as parity and spin in the nucleus etc but if sufficient encounters of diverse or tuned States can be made more probable it may play some part. Note in the Andrea Rossi and Norman Cook paper they mentioned that the Lithium 7 nucleus needed to be already excited to its first energy state above ground state in order to absorb a Proton too form Berilium 8 and split to 2 Helium nuclei. They did not mention how it was energised to this state though so they did not imply it was necessarily energised by gamma. Interestingly for Li7 the first energy state is about 477keV and spin parity of about 1/2 – (and a ground level spin of 3/2 -) which is below 511 keV for positron annihilation. I’m not sure if the remaining 34 keV could be accounted for some how so the gamma is still absorbed or if a spin of 1/2- (especially when aligned in a magnetic field) make absorption of a proton (or neutron) more likely or if it is just the geometry of the nucleus. I think Protons (and Neutrons) have a spin of 1/2+, Beryllium 8 and helium in ground state both have spin parity of 0+. Fluorine (ground spin parity 1/2+ The same spin and parity as a proton) has low nucleus energy levels are about 110 keV (spin parity 1/2+) and 197 keV (spin parity 5/2+) much lower than 511 keV so I suppose it will be harder to to see how this can achieve resonance with the energy levels in this case unless the gamma is already down converted somehow or some mechanism allows the remaining energy to be accounted for. I suppose Proton absorption in F19 is less likely due to having the same + parity? Still a LiF salt made Of Li 7 and Fluorine 19 has an interesting combination of nucleus properties. Would be cool if they can combine through some LENR process to form Mg 26 but I suppose this would require and generate huge energies.

          • Stephen

            Note that like LiH, according to Wikipedia LiF using enriched Li 7 is also used in nuclear reactors in this case as a coolant I understand it is also somehow efficient at abosrbing neutrons. In particular a variant including a mixture of Beryllium Flouride FLiBe is often used which has a lower melting point 360 to 450 deg C instead of 850 deg C for LiF

  • Bob Greenyer

    The Fuel>Ash of all studied Rossi runs and that of Parkhomov, Celani, Mitsubishi, Piantelli, Focardi, Mastromatteo, Mizuno etc etc show transmutations. That is Nuclear, we can avoid talking about it, but we can’t deny the evidence.

    A way to counter the fear of the ‘N’ word is to educate about how it is all around us, in bananas, in the soil (like Kerala) and more specifically and in direct correlation with Ni base LENR, drives the heat that keeps the earth warm inside. It is over us, under us and we eat it. We live in a Nuclear world and we need to be comfortable with that.

    Bashing things to gather at high energies is just nasty and that is the nuclear we should stop.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Piantelli had not let his patent run out, it has been awarded.

    People fear the unknown – this will be known in time.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Oh, trust me – I know I am no body.

    My kids remind me of it.

    I knew it when I helped the Occupy movement in London St. Pauls with their communications and broadcasts, I was made to feel like a worthless idiot by authority.

    I was also reminded of it when I made presentations for amazingly influential people that have made huge fortunes and gained influence by nothing more than moving other peoples money around.

    I’ll die like everyone else and it will matter little.

    Right now, I am just trying to help.

  • Harold Blair

    I have always said that Nickle & H & Li were essential elements in LENR- this has always been sort of assumed by experimenters-

  • Harold Blair

    I have always said that Nickle & H & Li were essential elements in LENR- this has always been sort of assumed by experimenters-

  • Bob Greenyer

    Wonderfully philosophical and true. Thankyou.