Triangle Business Journal: Industrial Heat to Move into New Lab Space in Cary, North Carolina

Thanks to Pietro F for sharing a link to a story in the Triangle Business Journal which reports that Industrial Heat, LLC is going to be moving into a new laboratory space in Cary, North Carolina, a city which is adjacent to Raleigh, NC where Industrial Heat is presently headquartered.

From the article:

“Industrial Heat is expanding its operations into a 20,000-square-foot lab space in Cary, where it hopes its controversial nuclear technology could make its first, big, proven breakthrough.”

The article quotes Darden as saying that Andrea Rossi is currently working in Florida, so he won’t be using this lab space on a day-to-day basis, and that two other companies funded by Cherokee, unrelated to LENR, will be sharing the facility in Cary with Industrial Heat.

Darden says they are currently “growing the business”, and that a lot of people are doing work in cold fusion these days, they are not saying much because it is so controversial. As for his own understanding on the technology, he says:

“The reason for the controversy is scientists look at it and say, ‘I don’t see how this could work.’ I can’t debate with that. What am I supposed to say? I don’t know how it works.”

  • Alan DeAngelis

    “its controversial nuclear technology”

    Was it controversial? There were Nobel laureates who thought that there might be something to F&Ps claims. It was the second-stringers who felt threaten by it.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Is it true that Julian Schwinger’s biography was reedited to remove any references to his support for cold fusion?

      • Pekka Janhunen

        That a scientist doesn’t have a theory is usually not a reason for him to say that the phenomenon doesn’t exist. For example with superconductivity and gamma ray bursts, about 40 years elapsed in both cases before some reasonable theory emerged, and with dark matter we are still counting. With cold fusion, the initial bad reproducibility was at least as important reason as the lack of theory why it earned a “bad science” reputation back then.

        • Gerard McEk

          I am sure it is because scientists have doomed Cold Fusion as ‘Pseudoscience’ like Para-psychology. Once you are pressed in that corner, every ‘scientist’ will qualify it as pathetic. I wonder ball lightning is being assessed by western scientists.

        • Roland

          The original thinkers are disproportionately inclined to focus obsessively on the phenomena that stubbornly refuse to yield to the current paradigm and labour on till a flash of insight re-orders the ‘data’ into a new and more rewarding reality construct.

          The larger culture, however, often requires generations to absorb these changes to deep lying, often unconscious, assumptions about reality. In special cases the resistance to paradigm change causes such profound cognitive dissonance as to completely divorce the individual from their own phenomenological experiences, and from all evidentiary reality.

          Einstein was roundly mocked for decades for getting it so hopelessly wrong about everything, even before National Socialism with their concepts of ‘Jewish Science’ and on after astronomy had validated him, and we’re still not that well adjusted to this whole Relativity business as a species.

          Tom is, of course, being disingenuous in his innocence.

          Great fun I’m sure…

          • Agaricus

            In special cases the resistance to paradigm change causes such profound cognitive dissonance as to completely divorce the individual from their own phenomenological experiences, and from all evidentiary reality.

            Actually I would suggest that this state is closer to the norm than to any special case – especially when it is encouraged by ‘authorititive’ sources such as the MSM or religious/political affiliation. We can see it in effect everywhere from the likes of inhabitants of Ecat News who are forced to invent increasingly paranoid ‘conspiracy theories’ in order to avoid facing the accumulating meta-data supporting the reality of LENR, through researchers for whom established dogma trumps all evidence, to those who chose to cling to biblical or other religious tracts in order to reject any and all information in conflict with their chosen ‘teachings’. Of course, when such reactions are expressed in any public forum, then self interest of various kinds may also be a strong factor.

            Regarding Tom Darden’s assumed ignorance, I share your amusement. It is of course a clever and virtually anassailable position that absolves him from any engagement with questions concerning progress, or any other ‘technical’ issue.

          • the non dissonance of politcician is something that one observe on ecenomical subjects at least in france.
            On BFM Business (Les experts) frequently a (not so) journalist explains that he is shocked by the general convergence on economy subjects, on solutions, on problems, by politicians when in private exchanges.
            only when they are in from of the camera do they disagree, proposing absurd answers that are the cause of the problem since decades.

            On physics and other scientific subjects, I’m less optimistic as they are mostly incompetent and trust authorities.
            Anyway I’m convinced that many physicist who have access to LENr data, mostly by accident (a colleague/subordinate works on, their boss fund it, they have to review a paper…) find data compelling, and refuse to communicate in public that way. Remember of Current science review process by skeptical physicists…
            who heard of any of those physicist ? like politicians who cannot tell truth to their electors, physicist cannot say the truth to their editor.

          • georgehants

            Hi Peter, hope you are well, I seem to be recovered from my debilitating condition, just to say your comments as above still shine out to me.
            Good to see things continuing to move along against the tide.
            Two links below that you GreenWin and others may find scientifically interesting.

          • Agaricus

            Very nice to hear from you George, and I’m glad you are feeling better. I’m just back from a late holiday down your way (St Ives) – maybe the recent spell of superb ‘Indian summer’ weather helped in your recovery!

            You may have rejoined the discussion here at a good time – things seem to be moving along quite nicely. Off to look at your links…

          • GreenWin

            Thanks George! Time reversal eh? I shall return to college and re-woo the one that got away. Happy to hear your health is improving. A couple years ago our science priests were humiliated by Nobel laureate Frank Wilczek’s suggestion that perpetual motion is plausible. Even our own Andy Kumar was befuddled.

            Isn’t it wonderful to see the world with an open mind?

          • Roland

            As you point out I’m guilty of being ‘nice’ as complete openness to our phenomenological experiences, ‘data’, as the driver to the reordering of our personal reality constructs is an exceedingly rare trait.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Actually, Einstein may have been mislead by the flawed 1887 Michelson-Morley experiment. Dayton Miller’s more modern interferometer (1920s) showed that the speed of light may no be constant.

            “I believe that I have really found the relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards.”
            — Albert Einstein

          • Alan DeAngelis


            Sheldrake talks about the assumption of C (the speed of light being constant) (~9:30).

          • radvar

            Wow, he really nails it, in the first two minutes.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Hi GreenWin and radvar.
            When I heard that the late Sir John Maddox (the editor of Nature who said that cold fusion was dead) said that Sheldrake’s book “ the best candidate for burning…”, I just had to hear what this Sheldrake guy had to say.

          • GreenWin

            Dr. Sheldrake is a treasure to the open mind. Anathema to consensus science.

          • Good vid, thanks Alan

          • Roland

            If memory serves the speed of light through a sulphur Bose Einstein condensate is 7 meters a second, BECs based on other elements show similar effect.

            It could be inferred from those observations that we’ll find other special cases going forward and that understanding photons more deeply will open further conceptual doors.

          • Agaricus

            At the other extreme, light speed in caesium vapour (at least its phase velocity) can apparently exceed ‘c’ by a factor of 2-300 under certain circumstances.



            This of course ties to Rupert Sheldrake’s TEDx lecture, a link to which is posted by Alan DeAngelis below. I sometime wonder in this context whether our ‘constants’ may be just that, but appear otherwise because it is the ‘dimension’ of time that is variable.

        • Job001

          Newton’s gravitational equation was published in 1687. F=GM1M2/R^2
          Only explains the relationship, Not the cause, which, after 328 years still remains unexplained.
          Explanations for gravity, “dark matter”, “black holes”, LENR, quantum effects, cognitive biases, and AI remain stubbornly elusive and unknown.
          The point is we small minded humans tend to not comprehend how extensive the “Unknown unknown” is while routinely overestimating the “known known”. Perhaps due to overstuffed denier brains,
          Physics slowly advances one funeral at a time.

      • Agaricus

        By him? If so, he way want to revert to the original version quite soon.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          No, I think he was pissed off at the APS till the day he died in 1994.
          I think the biography was written years after his death.

      • Warthog

        If it was so edited, it is kind of difficult for the author to dismiss Schwinger’s own description of the actions blocking him from publishing on the topic of LENR, which is available online.

  • deleo77

    Thanks, I would add that 20,000 SF is the kind of square footage you would want for manufacturing development work. Pure research could be done in a 5,000 SF space (or even less). 20,000 SF suggests manufacturing lines. A space like this could house 50 people or so comfortably. It’s a good sized space, and you wouldn’t sign a lease on it unless you were expecting to use it.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Hay, it is John Lennon’s birthday. We could celebrate it by having him ask the MSM to say something about the E-Cat.

  • bachcole

    From her position of having a busy life and not being able to discern exactly what is going on, perhaps because she is not as sharp as we are or because she can’t spent 19 months looking at the data, her perspective makes perfect sense. I spent 19 months trying to decide if Rossi was for real. Of course, I didn’t know at the time that I was “waiting” for the 2013 independent test. Someone should point out to her the facts of the various tests, testimonials, and demos. Perhaps she doesn’t have the confidence in her own thinking and experience to be able to know and say that, hey, this is true.

    But, like I said where and when Pietro F first reported it, it doesn’t matter if this is controversial for a whole bunch of people. It is NOT controversial WHATSOEVER for Darden, Rossi, Vaughn, and a couple of hundred others, including investors and including us here. It is one of those fact thingies, and this really is a case of it doesn’t matter what others think. Ain’t that wonderful. Usually it does matter what other people think, even when we say and think that it doesn’t matter what other people think. Rossi will prove to profit incentivized people that it is real, and the naysayers will be able to cram that fact up their rear-ends and blow it out their ears.

    • psi2u2

      “It is NOT controversial WHATSOEVER for Darden, Rossi, Vaughn, and a couple of hundred others, including investors and including us here. It is one of those fact thingies, and this really is a case of it doesn’t matter what others think”.


      “What am I supposed to say? I don’t know how it works.”

      Uhu. He sounds really worried about his investment. Things must be going wrong with Rossi. 😉

      • timycelyn

        But not having a well – agreed theory put to bed does increase the need (even further) for exhaustive empirical data from testing, of which the 1MW trial is the most well known example.

        To a degree the technology is a mysterious ‘black box’ even to Darden and Rossi, and the only way they can get the confidence to go out there and ultimately sell something for which the theoretical underpinning is at best shaky, is to have substantial safety margins over a large quantity of empirical data.

        They need this for certifications – of course – but also for theri own confidence that this is not going to turn around and bite them after it has been launched.

        Basically: Lack of firm predictive and trusted theory = need for massive amounts of empirical data in its place.

        • psi2u2

          Good points, you are right, any position he takes has a downside. But being canny seems to sit him now. I would infer that he has sufficient experience now with the operational product testing that he is saying that *as a businessman*, he is satisfied by the data he does have.

  • Observer

    Rossi has already been on the receiving end of industrial arsonists and ex post facto regulation. If his adversaries do not know where the e-cats are being tested all the better.

  • Owen Geiger

    To me this sounds like a trial mini-production area to make the first few thousand units. They’ll need lots of huge factories later for mass production.

  • Sanjeev

    Good to see the progress and growth happening in IH.

  • Gerard McEk

    It shows at least that Darden has some confidence in the E-cat future. The Poll that Cold Fusion is good to reduce the airpolution is now at 87% in favour of CF, vote!

  • Hi all

    That is quite a large lab. Put: 20000 square foot warehouse into a Google image search and see for your self.

    I am guessing that this will be their industrial lab doing final product and assembly line design while Rossi has another more secret Lab down in Florida. Florida is a common spot for scientific labs with military applications. 😉

    Kind Regards walker

  • Axil Axil

    We have talked at great length about the impact on our world that LENR portends: limitless carbon free energy, energy without downsides, and the unimaginable change in society and geopolitics that LENR will drive forward.

    But the many miracles that we now understand in LENR might be the briefest glimmer of LENR’s true nature.

    But there is a bigger and more awesome prospect that LERN might bring: black hole engineering. This ability to manipulate the vacuum: the very fabric of the universe. LENR might enable humankind to build large room sized zones of negative energy that permit the generation of wormholes in spacetime that can allow access to any point in the universe. It will permit the control of the speed of light and the control of time itself. The prospect of a time machine might now be brought into feasibility.

    If a large zone of negative vacuum energy could be fashioned, the black hole engineer could open up a room sized wormhole in space/time.

    Many of the speculative questions in physics that exist today could then be made testable through experimentation. For example, our universe could be just one of a manifold of all possible universes. Perhaps the universe tunneled from nothing. Quantum tunneling allows objects to pass through barriers that are impassable according to Newton’s classical laws of physics.

    In 1962 John Wheeler discovered the Einstein-Rosen bridge, later known as wormholes.

    In 1989, Kip Thorne showed a region of space containing a negative mass-energy could stabilize wormholes.

    A LENR reactor could be build where the zone of reaction completely encloses a room size voluum. Just like Rossi’s Cat and Mouse reactor method, the countless nano black holes would join together quantum mechanically in an entangled room sized global Bose Einstein condensate that covers a zone of negative vacuum energy. This special room in space/time would act as a portal that men could either live in under a new rate of the flow of time or move through a macro black hole as a portal to a wormhole.

    It is beyond our power of imagination to predict what such control of the universe could enable humankind to do. LENR is more than heat, it mean control of the universe for humankind.

    It might allow science to test for the existence of parallel universes. We cannot control the fates of our other selves in the multiverse. But if someone dies, they can still be alive in another universe. This suggests intriguing questions about free will, reincarnation, immortality, and perhaps the supernatural.

    In another current view of the universe, space/time might be one massive holographic field of information. LENR may allow our progeny to hack into and change that information to suit their whims and fancies.

    It might be for those with a conservative and cautious bent to discourage the development of LENR to its ultimate perfection. But we here of stout heart and courage must move forward with great vigor to allow humankind to explore boldly its manifest destiny.

    • Agaricus

      The prospect of a time machine might now be brought into feasibility.

      See Georgehants’ second link in his post below.

      • GreenWin

        Many of these anomalies occur when matter is deeply cooled or “trapped.” Slowing or eliminating matter’s vibration may allow it to pass into another reference frame. MRI superconductivity is a practical example. Single atom graphene displays zero resistance properties – allowing a condensate (BEC) to flow like one waveform – or a standing wave – which allows fusion-like phenomena.

        Thought experiment: One entangled photon is launched into Earth orbit at Near-C; the other photon remains trapped on Earth. Near-C photon time frame slows, (E=MC2) while Earth photon remains normal (24 hour day.) Near-C photon then “sees” Earth’s time arrow flow – into the future. Entanglement of Near-C photon provides information about our “future.” Photon time machine?

        • georgehants

          Many thanks Peter, GreenWin, entanglement was discovered 1935 since when it has mostly slept peacefully beyond the usual few clever guys doing the thinking.
          Could you or anybody clear up for me a question?
          It is said that entanglement occurs every time a (say) photon interacts with another, now is this accumulative or when meeting a new particle is the original entanglement lost?
          I find it hard to see that if an entanglement is never forgotten then a particle is going to be continually changing it’s condition every time one of it’s previously entangled partners again entangles with a new partner?
          Am I making sense, Ha.

          • Agaricus

            Morning George. I’ve already given myself brain-ache thinking about GW’s thought experiment, and now you come up with this! Perhaps one of our physicists will provide an answer you might rely on, but it is my understanding that entanglement system information is ‘forgotten’ when the superposed states are collapsed by observation/measurement, i.e., external interaction.

            It seems to me that such a collapse would be a prerequisite of entering a subsequent entanglement state, but it’s just possible (c.99% probability) that I am wrong about that. The ‘reconstituted’ photon or photons (at whatever spatial or time coordinates and vector(s) it/they assume when collapsed) would then be ‘available’ to form another ‘fresh’ entangled pair through separation or interaction, i.e., there would be no carryover of entanglement information from any former entangled state.

            However this simplistic view is probably lame, in view of recent observations of ‘hyper-entanglement’ involving complex internal ‘separation’ of entangled photons:


          • georgehants

            Peter, I am so glad that you also see my problem, in my popular reading this has never been addressed clearly.
            We will wait for the guys who hopefully have the answer.
            I continually come across references to the particle never forgetting it’s entanglement and that the whole universe is connected from the original (theorized only) big bang.
            If so then a scientist doing an experiment could continually find that the particle he is observing changes with out any input from him.

          • Agaricus

            Here’s a very interesting article that deals with something along the lines we have been talking about:


            I’ll probably need to lie down for a bit after I’ve re-read it a few times.

          • georgehants

            Ah yes all the usual lovely intricate effects, it does say —–
            “If you have two pairs of entangled photons, taking one photon from each pair and entangling them disengages the two original pairs,”
            So is that the answer, that every time a new interaction occurs the original entanglement is lost, if so then that certainly would confuse the communication situation if those photons are not completely isolated for their journey.

          • Agaricus

            Of course, nothing in quantum physics is ever that straightforward!

          • Job001

            Good point. It gets on my list because as human invented it didn’t work. They had to go back to nature to emulate what does work. The why of natures human brain is still beyond our understanding although theory has improved.

          • GreenWin

            All this does indeed make one’s brain tired!

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            “Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
            Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel….”

        • Agaricus

          Thought experiment. I’ve read (but can’t remember where – I’ll try to find it) that quantum entanglement of photons remains stable even when the entangled particles are separated in time through a relativistic differential, just as when separated in space. If that’s the case then it would seem that while the particles are still separated in time, entanglement could as you suggest be used to communicate information from the future or the past (depending on the POV), using the technique described at this link:

          • GreenWin

            Thanks for the links Peter. The Vienna photo experiment is fascinating in they entangle two different wavelength photons. I’m not sure how this is done as usually a single laser (photon) is beam split to create the pair. Need more study.

            The Xiao-song Ma “future” experiment appears to confirm some of the thought experiment I proposed. One image comes to mind – if these photons travel a light speed, does that not halt all temporal motion? However, a relativistic differential would allow a future photon to affect the past photon. Weird.

            Brings up a lovely FTL joke: “We don’t allow FTL neutrinos here,” says the bartender. Two neutrinos walk into a bar.

      • Mats002

        Talking about Goerge, I have not seen him around for quite a long time, hope he is well.

        • georgehants

          All well thank you Mats and have been reading your good posts as always.

  • LION

    The Media today, especially in the Western World is full doom and gloom, of ever greater threats to our life and liberty and our continued future existence, we at E-Cat World are lucky to know of the Wonderful work of Andrea Rossi and the commitment of Tom Darden to resolving some of these Big issues. Thankfully for the world there are many other Billionairs doing sterling work putting their vast wealth to work for all, this link reveals yet another one , a dedicated practical man with focus and determination, the kind of Billionair that hopefully will get on board with Tom Darden and Andrea Rossi to bring the e-cat to the world .

  • Detective

    Any specific reason to not want to know about that? We want to know “who” is the client. The location can be kept secret.

  • f sedei

    Controlling the heat is an important ongoing issue.It would seem logical ceramics would play a part.

  • Roland

    Exactly, clever curiosity vs. strategic necessity. I think we could all agree that the success of the larger project significantly outweighs our need to know everything.

    A moments reflection would bring the realization that other parties that don’t share Rossi’s goals are undoubtedly present among us in this open forum.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    This guy invented the “Hatch Filter” that’s used in GPS receivers. So, this might be an interesting talk.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Speaking of the whereabouts of the 1 MW factory, check out Rossi’s latest update:

    “now it’s 11.10 p.m. of Saturday Oct 10 and I just returned in the plant from the New World Symphony theater of Miami.”

    I can see from the New World Symphony website that the concert started at 7.30pm. Its duration was probably around two hours (the three musical pieces add up to 83 min, add applauses & intermission), which means that the earliest Rossi could’ve left was around 9.30pm. Assuming it took him 10-ish minutes to set up at the factory before he posted the update, we can conservatively deduce that the plant is within a 1hr 30min radius of:

    500 17th Street
    Miami Beach, FL 33139

    • Bob Greenyer

      It is in Florida, that is beyond doubt.

      • Freethinker

        Or he is playing with you. It could be a preset message entered by a team member, or even sent via his smartphone. What if he was helo’ed out, or had a private jet standing by? Would he had time to leave Florida?

        Or, it could be metaphorically speaking. He might have views a streamed casting of it… Just saying… 😉

        • Bob Greenyer

          no. it is in Florida

          • Mats002

            How do you know that Bob?

          • Bob Greenyer

            Rossi’s good, but he has not invented teleportation yet

    • Gerrit

      let the guessing begin:

      1500 W Sugar House Rd, Belle Glade, FL 33430

      sugar cane mill needs steam.

  • Bob Greenyer

    “Results could be positive or negative” particularly if you get a fire ant in your from pod.

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