LENR and Orbo

First a little history. In the summer of 2006 I first came across the story of Steorn, who at the time claimed they had discovered a means of producing free, clean and unlimited energy. As I have always been hopeful that better energy technology would come along, the story caught my attention and I spent quite a bit of time on Steorn’s website, watching videos and reading their public forum which was my first introduction to a certain type of skepticism which is alive and well to this day — both on the E-Cat and Orbo front.

I was intrigued by Steorn, they seemed to me to be a serious company, and despite their rather audacious claims, I had high hopes that they would be able to deliver something useful.

I signed up to join the ‘SKDB’ the private Steorn knowledge base, designed for Orbo developers, and even signed an NDA regarding information that was available only in that forum. It was an active community of curious persons like myself, and some very smart people interested in science and replication of the Orbo effect. When I first became interested in Steorn’s technology it was all about interactions of permanent magnetic rotary systems, then it moved onto electromagnetic rotary systems, and then into solid state electromagnetic systems.

Quite honestly I didn’t understand too much. I was curious and mainly along for the ride. And Steorn never really revealed too much information in the SKDB — their goal seemed to be to let members figure out things for themselves with a few pointers here and there. None of the SKDB members that I was aware of ever built any working Orbo replication.

Along the way, Steorn had some very spectacular public failures, particularly the demonstration in London that failed to work, and a jury of scientists giving a verdict that they had failed to prove their claims. Those were disappointments, but I still felt there was reason not to write them off.

Then suddenly the SKDB was shut down, apparently at the demand of some partner that Steorn was working with. I’m not really sure when that was — I think it was sometime in 2011. After that, Steorn faded out of the public spotlight and I only heard snippets of information. They had developed a heating technology called Hephaheat, and had apparently entered into some partnership agreements, but I never learned much more than that.

Meanwhile, I had learned about Andrea Rossi and the E-Cat early in 2011, and became very interested in what I soon became convinced was a major technological breakthrough on the energy front, and I began this E-Cat World website. Like many people who followed the E-Cat story, I thought it would break out quite quickly, but most of us are aware it has been a long journey for Andrea Rossi and his team to move the E-Cat towards the marketplace, and while progress seems to have been made, we are still not there yet.

And now suddenly Steorn has appeared back on the scene, now offering a version of Orbo that I never expected could be possible: a solid state system that apparently produces a constant flow of electricity directly from an electret material (no more magnets) — a never-die battery. Of course with my background with Steorn I am intrigued, and so have put an order in for an O-Cube (thanks to the help of generous ECW readers).

My hope has always been that somehow a technology would appear on the scene that could take us away from the expensive, insecure, polluting centralized energy production systems we have today, and provide us with clean energy in abundance. Now it seems to me that we are on the verge of having two major breakthrough technologies on the market that could do that in LENR and Orbo, and in terms of having a working product available it seems to me that Orbo is ahead.

While Rossi’s E-Cat has been shown to have an incredible power density, to this point the only output we have seen is heat, and the first commercial plants will be to provide heat in industrial settings. Rossi has said that they have produced electricity in an R&D setting, but we are still seem to be quite a long way from having electricity generation E-Cat products on the market.

I would expect that the E-Cat could be used in centralized power stations to replace coal, gas and nuclear fission, and maybe it could drive smaller local power generation plants — perhaps even domestic units. But the revelation from Steorn is that it may be possible to bypass the need for any kind of external generation system with this new Orbo electret material, as it is claimed to provide a constant, inexhaustable supply of electricity exactly at the point of use.

If Orbo power density can be improved, I can easily see it being engineered into devices like computers, televisions, computers, lights, refrigerators, fans, pumps, motors, etc. that never need to be plugged into a power outlet, and which will supposedly never run out electricity — something certainly considered impossible by today’s science. If that could happen, I think it would be something more impressive than anything we have heard so far about the E-Cat or other LENR products. The need for heat varies with the seasons and geographic location, but in today’s world the need for electricity is constant and universal.

Currently the power density of Orbo is still pretty small, as evidenced by the first products that have been announced, so some major refinement will be needed before we can have the products mentioned above, but I would expect that if the technology works that this first version of the Orbo electret will be improved upon. Shaun McCarthy has said that power density can be improved with more advanced manufacturing techniques, but that would require more expense, and he hopes that they can get licensing agreements with companies who can further refine production techniques.

So all in all, I consider Steorn’s Orbo to be a serious potential competitor to LENR, and I think this is a very good thing. Competition is a major spur to innovation and it speeds up product development which benefits all of us. LENR and Orbo are both in the very beginning stages and right now we don’t know where they will lead. And who knows what other unexpected advanced energy technologies will come along.

While to me the signs look good, both technologies are still ultimately unproven in terms of having working products in the market. I am very eager to get my hands on the O-Cube. My order has been placed and once the O-Cube arrives, I plan to do extensive testing of it and report my findings on the site in detail. We’ll also report on what others are finding. And we’re only a couple of months away from possible positive results of Rossi’s E-Cat test, which could also prove to be very significant. We’ll continue to follow developments on all fronts in this very interesting time.

And as a heads-up to readers, this site may be getting a new name and web domain in the coming weeks to reflect the expansion of focus here.

  • Guy Thomas

    Please keep the website name as is – it’s nice and short and easy to remember!

    • Zephir

      You can also buy another primary alias for your domain – after then you can occasionally count the visits via both domain names and decide later.

  • Barbierir

    Please wait for the test conclusion before changing domain and expanding the site to cover the Orbo

    • Sanjeev

      Probably Frank has some solid reason behind his decision, but I agree with you. It will not take long to conclusively determine if the Ocube is OU or not.
      Another option is to add a separate orbo section and make a landing page which sends people to either LENR/E-Cat or Orbo sections of the site via two obvious links.

      • ecatworld

        Yes, there are various ways to organize things on the site.

        I don’t see this as an urgent situation, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about. Part of my problem is that the name of this website is tied to the E-Cat brand (which Andrea Rossi has graciously allowed me to use), but whether it will remain preeminent over the years remains to be seen. What happens when other brands or technologies become prominent?

        • US_Citizen71

          CNET is still around and most today have never heard of the Commodore Users Network which its name is derived from. I would not abandon your domain name but instead add subdomains or sister sites. The e-cat story is long from over.

          • ecatworld

            That’s interesting. Whatever I decide to do, I won’t abandon the ECW acronym. And I agree with you completely that the E-Cat story is in no way over, and I have no intention of reducing coverage of it.

  • Barbierir

    Please wait for the test conclusion before changing domain and expanding the site to cover the Orbo

    • Sanjeev

      Probably Frank has some solid reason behind his decision, but I agree with you. It will not take long to conclusively determine if the Ocube is OU or not.
      Another option is to add a separate orbo section and make a landing page which sends people to either LENR/E-Cat or Orbo sections of the site via two obvious links.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes, there are various ways to organize things on the site.

        I don’t see this as an urgent situation, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about. Part of my problem is that the name of this website is tied to the E-Cat brand (which Andrea Rossi has graciously allowed me to use), but whether it will remain preeminent over the years remains to be seen. What happens if other brands or technologies become prominent?

        • US_Citizen71

          CNET is still around and most today have never heard of the Commodore Users Network which its name is derived from. I would not abandon your domain name but instead add subdomains or sister sites. The e-cat story is long from over.

          • Frank Acland

            That’s interesting. Whatever I decide to do, I won’t abandon the ECW acronym. And I agree with you completely that the E-Cat story is in no way over, and I have no intention of reducing coverage of it.

  • Curbina Not logged in

    I can totally identify myself with what you wrote Frank, as another former member of the SKDB. I still think that the original idea of orbo with the BH curve interaction and time variance of it is what powers the current embodiment of orbo, as the electret has two metals that must have a BH response and interact, with the insulating material modulating the interaction to produce the energy, hence the ‘time splitting’ remark of Shaun. I think that understanding well how the interaction happens will lead to the materials and manufacture improvements required for rising the energy density of orbo. As it is, it might be expensive, but still is very usefull.

    • Zephir

      IMO electret works at different (actually sorta dual) principle than SKDB (the solid state MEG of Thomas Bearden is perfectly dual to captret). The common negentropic principle is similar at the high conceptual level only as a Maxwell daemon and with utilizing longitudinal portion of fluctuations inside the energized portion of material. If we squeeze two magnets together, it has the same effect to quantum fluctuations formed there, like the introduction of high voltage to insulator: they’re getting spontaneously polarized and once they decay, this polarization can be utilized in macroscopic energy, whereas it’s replenished from environmental heat content.

      In dense aether model the energy always fluctuates and circulates and we cannot prohibit it from long time perspective. But if we restrict/constrain the fluctuations in some place to low dimensions, then this place will start to behave like the pump: it will eject the energy along direction of low dimensional constrain, whereas it will suck it from all other directions. It’s still poses the neverending circulation of energy (so it doesn’t contradict the global thermodynamics), it’s just oriented one – so it may violate 2nd thermodynamical law locally. The common black hole scenario (one-dimensional constrain for energy flux) comes on mind here: this artifact sucks matter from all sides and it ejects it via polar jets, where it can be utilized as an energy. Now we could condense particles from black hole jets and throw them back again into black hole and we could live comfortable life from the circulation of matter through black hole.

      • Curbina

        I know that electrets are completely different as we understand them, and Shaun acknowledged it by saying that the cells are good at picking environmental energy, but I’m linking what Steorn was all about between August 2006 and mid 2011, and all the information we were told as SKDB members. Any metal has a BH curve (response to an external magnetizing force) and any pair of metals interact along these curves even if we are never aware of it. The whole idea of time variance of magnetic interactions is that as the response of a magnetizable material to an external magnetizing force is not instantaneous, you can find a time frame when you can gain energy from that interaction. How that got embodied in this new Orbo iteration, is what I would like to know.

        • Zephir

          /* How that got embodied in this new Orbo iteration */

          IMO In no way, it’s a solely new technology from technical point of view. The old Orbo and Orbo-Cube have only market name in common. We can only discuss why McCarthy/Steorn decided so, if the Orbo is widely recognized as a failed technology (which I personally don’t think so, but most of Steorn investors will probably do).

  • Gerard McEk

    Frank, reading your story has made it clear to me why you have payed so much attention on Steorn lately. Looking to that technology has not convinced me that it could ever be a proper competitor for a serious power source. I look forward to your tests, though and be quite interested if you can find out from what power source the Orbo is tapping its energy (is it mechanical vibrafoons and sound, temperature differences, electro magnetic power tapping etc.). (Based on that it is possible to calculate the maximum energy it will be able to supply if its efficiency would be 100%).
    I like ECW and would regret if you would change your focus too much because of the reason mentioned above.

  • Zephir
  • Gerard McEk

    Frank, reading your story has made it clear to me why you have payed so much attention on Steorn lately. Looking to that technology has not convinced me that it could ever be a proper competitor for a serious power source. I look forward to your tests, though and be quite interested if you can find out from what power source the Orbo is tapping its energy (is it mechanical vibration and sound, temperature differences, electro magnetic power tapping etc.). (Based on that it is possible to calculate the maximum energy it will be able to supply if its efficiency would be 100%).
    I like ECW and would regret if you would change your focus too much because of the reason mentioned above.

  • Zephir

    /* Quite honestly I didn’t understand too much. */

    The idea of SKDB is demonstrated here http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/html/orboeffecten.htm

    and explained here https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/2n51z8/simplest_theory_of_overunity_devices_possible

    It’s understanding needs just a bit coherent thinking, not technobabbling about monopoles and polyneutrons. I’m sure, Steorn still has this technology in his portfolio:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHGFsgftZF4

    The reason, why Steorn switched to electret technology is, it’s apparently easier to manufacture and utilize at mass scale – the difference is similar like the difference between computer memory manufactured from movable parts and compact solid state device. Also the energy density per mass/volume unit seems higher at the case of electret battery. Both principles are explored long time at the overunity scene already.

  • gdaigle

    Nice walk down memory lane, Frank. As you know I too took the journey beginning in 2006, through the SKDB, and out the other side. Steorn’s CEO Shaun is unconventional, unapologetic and nothing but tenacious in following what started as tracking down a measurement discrepancy by Shaun’s team. Others might have dismissed it, but Steorn did not.

    I’m glad that this latest (and totally unexpected by former SKDBers) iteration of the Orbo took a new direction using an electret. It could only have come from following the principles of their discovery and extrapolating the possibilities to this 18th century technology. The electret has the benefit of being a process flow manufacturing technique much like PVs (hopefully with less hazardous waste), rather than a component technology like the solid state Orbo. The ss-Orbo almost certainly would have had higher production costs per unit.

    Of course, a future choice of technology doesn’t have to be either an E-Cat OR an Orbo. We could hope to see hybrids of the two, with the Orbo trickle charging a larger Li-ion battery for jumping starting an E-Cat to make a completely non-carbon, off-the-grid energy/heat system.

    As for the name change, I noted the change from “E-Cat World” to ECW not long ago. Probably stay away from “E-Cat and Orbo World”, lest it be shorted to E-COW! But I’m sure you’ll find a suitable acronym.

    • Frank Acland

      lol, Greg — let’s stay away from the E-COW! I agree totally that it is not an either/or situation, and I have no intention on taking my eye off the E-Cat, but I feel it’s important to follow where relevant new developments in other arenas take us. My focus has always been revolutionary energy technology, and the more the better, if they work well.

      • hempenearth

        Lol, E-Bull would be worse.
        Before it went silent I thought there was a bit of a convergence happening between the E- Cat LT and Hepaheat.

  • clovis ray

    Hi, guys.
    Great topic, as all of you know i am a huge fan of E-CAT, and things are ready to pop, F9, In a few months even then the only product is an industrial heater, with no need for advertisement, word of mouth will be enough to keep them busy for a long time. Frank, and Ecat world needs to be funded
    with a moderate amount of dust, more than what is being donated, which is truly appreciated.
    Maybe, santa will bring him and e-cat world, a pretty green present. he is definitely on the good boy list. Mary Christmas, everyone

  • georgehants

    As most of us are fully aware, ECW and a few other serious scientific Websites run by brave Rebels like our Admin are the only places in the World where any competent scientists and others can Research the known Evidence for Cold Fusion.
    It is I think obvious to those of us able to think a little, that establishment science publishing and establishment science itself has failed dismally since being completely high-jacked by the capitalist interests that have corrupted our countries.
    Not just Cold Fusion but now possibly new technology of the Orbo are being professionally covered on these pages, but there are many more subjects that are just as incompetently ignored and will continue to be so until this or other Websites seriously cover each topic in the same highly moderated way,
    Removing all trouble makers and closed-minded followers of official Dogma that the usual science blogs are infested with like the virus of the common cold.
    People who say such things as every Topic covered on PESN etc is a fraud.
    Science has and is failing everyone of us except the rich and powerful
    weapon makers, oil interests etc. etc. as long as the ordinary people
    have their I Pads computer games and the Simpsons to watch then these
    people think they are doing the whole population a favour by allowing
    them to continue to breath and work almost entirely for their benefits.
    Good luck to ECW or the new name of THS or TRUE Honest Science.

  • georgehants

    As most of us are fully aware, ECW and a few other serious scientific Websites run by brave Rebels like our Admin are the only places in the World where any competent scientists and others can Research the known Evidence for Cold Fusion.
    It is I think obvious to those of us able to think a little, that establishment science publishing and establishment science itself has failed dismally since being completely high-jacked by the capitalist interests that have corrupted our countries.
    Not just Cold Fusion but now possibly new technology of the Orbo are being professionally covered on these pages, but there are many more subjects that are just as incompetently ignored and will continue to be so until this or other Websites seriously cover each topic in the same highly moderated way,
    Removing all trouble makers and closed-minded followers of official Dogma that the usual science blogs are infested with like the virus of the common cold.
    People who say such things as every Topic covered on PESN etc. is a fraud.
    Science has and is failing everyone of us except the rich and powerful
    weapon makers, oil interests, drug manufacturers etc. etc. as long as the ordinary people
    have their I Pads computer games and the Simpsons to watch then these
    people think they are doing the whole population a favour by allowing
    them to continue to breath and work almost entirely for their benefits.
    Good luck to ECW or the new name of THS or True Honest Science.

  • Roberto Siquieros

    I see on facebook that the latest O-phone vid has had 728,000 views. I think its safe to say that Orbo has gone viral, as they predicted it would. I’d be fascinated to know what the rate of conversion to sales is at the moment. I guess it doesn’t really matter too much to them at this point – its still about getting the word out. When the gadgets go live and the testimonials start coming in, then the conversion rates will go up dramatically I would have thought.

    • Roberto Siquieros

      Make that 729,000, its just gone up!

      • Omega Z

        1st, they need to get production going.
        2nd, they need to get the price down.
        3rd, It need to be proven to work.
        Otherwise it will be a novelty.

  • Is the Orbo power cube technology the same technology used in the Elfe flashlight?

    • Frank Acland

      Not according to Steorn. They say it generates electricity, while the ELFE is claimed to harvest ambient RF and EM frequencies.

      • Omega Z

        So the ELFE wouldn’t be much use in my Faraday caged underground shelter.
        Is that right?
        Dang, I need to cancel my order. 🙂

        • Anon2012_2014

          Why do you need a Faraday cage underground — are you afraid EMP will kill you. I don’t think so.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Sounds right. Elfe claims to be able to put out 3 watts for 3 hours per day, i.e. its always charging at 3 * 3/24 = 375 mW. Seems within the realm of Orbo.

      That is roughly the same as the solar irradiance on a 4 cm^2 square, so they are of the same order of magnitude.

      No idea about the Schumann resonance power.

      If ELFE/Orbo power density/unit area is about the same as solar, I don’t see why it can’t be scaled. What’s it gonna do, slow down the rotation of the iron core?

      • Anon2012_2014

        If the Schumann resonance is 1 picoTesla, i.e. 1e-12 T, and diameter of the flashlight coil is 3 cm, then the area is 7 cm^2 = 7e-4 m^2, so the flux is 1e-12*7e-4=7e-16. Say some how 10 meters of #24 copper wire is wound = 10/.0942=106 turns, with resistance of 0.84 ohms, I get the induced voltage is only

        106*7e-16/10 hz= 7.4e-13 Volts and the power is only
        (7.4e-13)^2/0.84 = 6.5e-25 watts

        Am I right that 1e-12 Tesla fluctuation produces only 6.5e-25 watts?

        Can someone check this? My recollection from radio was that a strong signal was 100 uV. My recollection is that a ferrite rod in the antenna concentrates the electromagnetic signal. Still, this seems several orders of magnitude less than the 375 mW claimed by Shumann Resonant flashlight.

        Looking for volunteers to chime in with their calculations…

  • Optimist

    I can understand how energy can be harvested from nuclear transmutation, nothing new to science there. I also understand electret power generators harvesting mechanical energy, even down to atomic vibrations and changing it to electricity that might be useful and delivering energy as long as we have environments with temperatures above zero. However, if the Orbo technology can be scaled to energy densities above the energy that can this way be harvested from the space that it occupies things starts to sound a little bit magically strange and to me would requiring new type of science? That is not only twisting of the current “known laws of physic” but really needs new laws of physic? So trying to stay optimistic, what is it working theory here on where the energy is coming from?

    • georgehants

      Optimist, just like you being “optimistic” is the main thing I think.
      As science does not have the remotest reasonable theory in the materialistic sense, of where the fantastic amount of energy that our Universe consists of, (beyond such things as neg + pos = zero, that I think you will agree leaves one or two loose ends,) originated, it would be fair to get by without any theories for a while as we try to establish the parameters of these technologies if genuine.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      It is irresponsible to accept the Orbo based on information so
      far. However, I not going to get into some pissing match here. There will be a
      VERY harsh judgment from folks like me when this this story goes down in a ball
      of flames.

      This is a great story because it will divide those of sound
      logic and reason and their ability to cut to the truth and those who cannot
      discern as such.

      As noted at this point, we just have to let the chips
      fall where they may and let this story pan out.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Anon2012_2014

        There’s no data coming out of Orbo. Let’s get some data. If we go 10 weeks without getting a test on an Orbo, then it looks like Orbo fails the test; i.e. vaporware.

  • Optimist

    I can understand how energy can be harvested from nuclear transmutation, nothing new to science there. I also understand electret power generators harvesting mechanical energy, even down to atomic vibrations and changing it to electricity that might be useful and delivering energy as long as we have environments with temperatures above zero. However, if the Orbo technology can be scaled to energy densities above the energy that can this way be harvested from the space that it occupies things starts to sound a little bit magically strange and to me would requiring new type of science? That is not only twisting of the current “known laws of physic” but really needs new laws of physic? So trying to stay optimistic, what is it working theory here on where the energy is coming from?

    • georgehants

      Optimist, just like you, being “optimistic” is the main thing I think.
      As science does not have the remotest reasonable theory in the materialistic sense, of where the fantastic amount of energy that our Universe consists of, (beyond such things as neg + pos = zero, that I think you will agree leaves one or two loose ends,) originated, it would be fair to get by without any theories for a while as we try to establish the parameters of these technologies, if genuine.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      It is irresponsible to accept the Orbo based on information so
      far. However, I not going to get into some pissing match here. There will be a
      VERY harsh judgment from folks like me when this this story goes down in a ball
      of flames.

      This is a great story because it will divide those of sound
      logic and reason and their ability to cut to the truth and those who cannot
      discern as such.

      As noted at this point, we just have to let the chips
      fall where they may and let this story pan out.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Anon2012_2014

        There’s no data coming out of Orbo. Let’s get some data. If we go 10 weeks without getting a test on an Orbo, then it looks like Orbo fails the test; i.e. vaporware.

  • So, Rossi, Mr. “Market Is Truth,” might end up getting beaten by the market that he loves so much; ironic, yet fitting, isn’t it? It couldn’t have happened to a nicer libertarian-minded schmuck. Anyway, Rossi and The E-Cat may not be done, even if they can never use it for energy. Fabiani was talking about the possible uses being seemingly endless, and one would assume that these seemingly endless possibilities have some that are outside of energy. He even dropped something about possible starships, like in Star Trek, so there will probably be more there, with the E-Cat.

    • Omega Z

      Actually, The Orbo sounds like a complimentary product for things the E-cat wont be suited for. I don’t care for an I-phone at a toasty 1400`C in my pocket.
      And even with a huge drop in price, I don’t think a scaled up Orbo will be useful for home heating or large energy requirements.
      But I don;t have a problem with different devices for different needs.

      • Yeah, you may be right, for a period of time. I would bet that, in the long run, Orbo, or something derived from it, would be able to be scaled up – assuming that it works, of course. Well, I guess that we’ll have to wait and see what happens.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Orbo should not be compared to Rossi’s E-Cat.

  • The credibility of a website is falling with it’s weakest link…

    You should not mix up LENR with Steorn.

    • Ged

      Pretty sure the Orbo is just some ambient RF harvesting device. I know there’s been proposals to market such things for a long time, as they are relatively easy to make but very low power (too low power for most companies to care to market it). So, probably not all that special, but still a real thing if so. We’ll know when it gets tested if it’s something or just a hunk of plastic.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Exactly. Unless there is more RF to harvest by going broad spectrum than we normally think about. Or maybe in addition to harvesting RF, they harvest IR, visible, X-Rays, gamma rays, mesons, an internal alpha source, sound compression waves, VLF fluctuating magnetic fields.. There is a lot of energy flowing through an Orbo. Why not capture it all???

        • Zephir

          The alleged power output 0.4 W of Orbo-cube unit is too high for being explained just with energy harvesting. Also, the massive aluminum shell of Orbo-Cube would make substantial fraction of EM spectrum inaccessible for power harvesting unit.

    • Barbierir

      There’s nothing wrong in testing the Orbo, from the info released it makes my bs-meter gauge jump to the red but Frank has the right attitude: buy one and test. It either works or it doesn’t. I just wouldn’t make it a main website topic before a positive test.

      • Testing and reporting about it from time to time is not my problem.
        But renaming this website in favor of orbo could damage it’s “good image”.

        • ecatworld

          I would not rename the website in favor of Orbo — that’s out of the question. However the name of the website as it stands is attached to one technology and one company.

          • Agaricus

            Many contributors here seem to be open to the possibility that current science doesn’t have all the answers, and a number of possible new technologies are regularly discussed. IMHO, a new and less partisan name would be welcome.

            As far as credibility goes, those who read the topics and comments here are probably open-minded enough to accept that where there seems to be one way to harvest energy from a novel source, there are probably a number of others. In view of this a skeptical ‘watching brief’ seems to be an appropriate stance to take, and hopefully the new name will reflect this.

          • Omega Z

            Agaricus, I agree we need to be open mined to other possibilities.
            I think if we were to disregard everything else without looking into it would make us no better then the skeptics we deal with about the E-cat.

            With the Orbo being available to be tested, it would be silly to ignore it.
            I would go so far as to say that if Frank’s testing isn’t positive, I wouldn’t close the door immediately. I believe Frank has contact with another that is testing it as well. I would want to hear from them. You know, because 1 could be defective. If both tests are negative, then skepticism becomes seriously warranted. And, If Franks test is positive, I would still like to hear from the other party.

            If the Orbo works as advertised, we could then have additional discussions. Like, can it be done without the battery. The battery is a negative for me. Simply because present battery storage costs more then electricity to begin with. And of course, can it be scaled up. It would be nice never to have to change batteries again. I have multiple devices I have to change batteries in annually. Smoke detectors, Thermostats, Clocks, Etc….

            Note: And can it be made cheap. At a $1200 price tag, I can deal with a lot of batteries. 🙂

          • clovis ray

            Hi, buddy.
            I agree with you ‘BUT’ a huge amount of new and different tech, will evolve from the E-CAT.
            And who knows what else, the good doctor, is a present working on an electric cat, that will electrise this whole world, you will be so busy you won’t have time to scratch your but, lol i always think of this clip and have a good laugh,

        • Barbierir

          I don’t believe that Frank would do that unless the test is positive. And in such (unlikely IMHO) case there would not be anything damaging at all.

          • And as a heads-up to readers, this site may be getting a new name and web domain in the coming weeks to reflect the expansion of focus here.

            For me this sounds like he wants to change it in a few days.

          • ecatworld

            Nothing will change within a few days, first we need to see how the Orbo tech works.

    • Timar

      Couldn’t agree more.

      • Zephir

        This is relevant stance… 😉 – but we also shouldn’t repeat the ignorant attitude, which has lead into one century long ignorance of cold fusion. Also, I don’t consider Orbo-Cube way less credible, than the secretive technology of A. Rossi.

  • The credibility of a website falls with it’s weakest link…

    You should not mix up LENR with Steorn.

    • Ged

      Pretty sure the Orbo is just some ambient RF harvesting device. I know there’s been proposals to market such things for a long time, as they are relatively easy to make but very low power (too low power for most companies to care to market it). So, probably not all that special, but still a real thing if so. We’ll know when it gets tested if it’s something or just a hunk of plastic.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Exactly. Unless there is more RF to harvest by going broad spectrum than we normally think about. Or maybe in addition to harvesting RF, they harvest IR, visible, X-Rays, gamma rays, mesons, an internal alpha source, sound compression waves, VLF fluctuating magnetic fields.. There is a lot of energy flowing through an Orbo. Why not capture it all???

        • Zephir

          The alleged power output 0.4 W of Orbo-cube unit is too high for being explained just with energy harvesting. Also, the massive aluminum shell of Orbo-Cube would make substantial fraction of EM spectrum inaccessible for power harvesting unit.

    • Barbierir

      There’s nothing wrong in testing the Orbo, from the info released it makes my bs-meter gauge jump to the red but Frank has the right attitude: buy one and test. It either works or it doesn’t. I just wouldn’t make it a main website topic before a positive test.

      • Testing and reporting about it from time to time is not my problem.
        But renaming this website in favor of orbo could damage it’s “good image”.

        • Frank Acland

          I would not rename the website in favor of Orbo — that’s out of the question. However the name of the website as it stands is attached to one technology and one company.

          • Many contributors here seem to be open to the possibility that current science doesn’t have all the answers, and a number of possible new technologies are regularly discussed. IMHO, a new and less partisan name would be welcome.

            As far as credibility goes, those who read the topics and comments here are probably open-minded enough to accept that where there seems to be one way to harvest energy from a novel source, there are probably a number of others, and it is appropriate to maintain a skeptical ‘watching brief’ for new possibilities. Hopefully the new name will reflect this attitude.

          • Omega Z

            Agaricus, I agree we need to be open mined to other possibilities.
            I think if we were to disregard everything else without looking into it would make us no better then the skeptics we deal with about the E-cat.

            With the Orbo being available to be tested, it would be silly to ignore it.
            I would go so far as to say that if Frank’s testing isn’t positive, I wouldn’t close the door immediately. I believe Frank has contact with another that is testing it as well. I would want to hear from them. You know, because 1 could be defective. If both tests are negative, then skepticism becomes seriously warranted. And, If Franks test is positive, I would still like to hear from the other party.

            If the Orbo works as advertised, we could then have additional discussions. Like, can it be done without the battery. The battery is a negative for me. Simply because present battery storage costs more then electricity to begin with. And of course, can it be scaled up. It would be nice never to have to change batteries again. I have multiple devices I have to change batteries in annually. Smoke detectors, Thermostats, Clocks, Etc….

            Note: And can it be made cheap. At a $1200 price tag, I can deal with a lot of batteries. 🙂

          • clovis ray

            Hi, buddy.
            I agree with you ‘BUT’ a huge amount of new and different tech, will evolve from the E-CAT.
            And who knows what else, the good doctor, is a present working on an electric cat, that will electrise this whole world, you will be so busy you won’t have time to scratch your but, lol i always think of this clip and have a good laugh,
            https://youtu.be/9RTPdAAdw30

        • Barbierir

          I don’t believe that Frank would do that unless the test is positive. And in such (unlikely IMHO) case there would not be anything damaging at all.

          • And as a heads-up to readers, this site may be getting a new name and web domain in the coming weeks to reflect the expansion of focus here.

            For me this sounds like he wants to change it in a few days.

          • Frank Acland

            Nothing will change within a few days, first we need to see how the Orbo tech works.

    • Timar

      Couldn’t agree more.

      We don’t need a second PESN.

      • Zephir

        This is relevant stance… 😉 – but we also shouldn’t repeat the ignorant attitude, which has lead into one century long ignorance of cold fusion. Also, I don’t consider Orbo-Cube way less credible, than the secretive technology of A. Rossi.

  • ecatworld

    There’s not a huge amount of credibility or reputation to lose here in my opinion, since we’re on the fringes already.

    My motivation for the site has been to explore LENR as accurately and honestly as I can, and the same will be the case for Orbo.

    As far as accepting Orbo as being what Steorn claims it to be, we can’t do that yet. I have my own reasons to be optimistic about Orbo, which is why I have ordered one, but we can’t know for sure yet.

    One nice difference here, though, is that it looks like an actual Orbo product can be tested, and so it will be much easier to make an evaluation of the technology than in the case for the E-Cat, where there’s only second-hand information at this point. Even so, I find the evidence in favor of the E-Cat’s validity to be convincing.

    • SG

      I agree with what you are trying to accomplish. I see three possibilities unfolding in the next weeks regarding Orbo.

      1) Orbo is shipped. It works as claimed. There is no going back.
      2) Orbo is shipped. It doesn’t work as claimed at any venue that does the testing and reporting. There is little chance of Steorn moving forward.
      3) Steorn’s efforts to ship working product are sabotaged.

      Regarding 3), lest you think I’m being over dramatic, consider the well-organized efforts to sabotage LENR in its early days (and to some extent, even today). Where financial interests are at stake, we must be always vigilant of this possibility. Shaun is not one to go down without a fight, so if there are efforts to disrupt their plans, I doubt Steorn will go quietly.

      • Anon2012_2014

        1) Orbo is shipped. It works as claimed. There is no going back.
        2) Orbo is shipped. It doesn’t work as claimed at any venue that does the testing and reporting. There is little chance of Steorn moving forward.
        3) Steorn’s efforts to ship working product are sabotaged.

        You left at (4)

        4) Orbo doesn’t ship in the next weeks. Steorn makes up some hand waving reason why they can’t ship one for a third party to publicly validate.

        I give them 10 weeks to ship one of these to Frank.

        • SG

          Yes, this is possible as well. Although might be hard to discern between 3 and 4.

    • modernsteam

      Hi Frank,

      I love what you’ve said above! And you’re doing it in the right scientific manner as well: no declarations of fact without observed proof. Now the naysayers can’t get after us for being deluded dupes about what “conventionals” say is “pseudo-science”.

      Just to finish off, are you familiar with Bill Alek and his and Aurora Light’s company, Auroratek? In your referring to Steorn’s last development stage being “solid state” – ie., motionless energy conversion, Bill’s also doing R&D in motionless “over-unity” energy technology, but uses permanent magnets in the main to get there. I don’t know whether he’s involving electrets as well, but his being an electrical engineer, I’m sure he’s familiar with them.

      I’ll leave you with Bill’s/Auroratek’s “science” web-page just in case you haven’t yet accessed it::

      http://auroratek.us/SCIENCE.html

      Have a good read, Frank!

      Hal Ade
      Gatineau, QC, Canada.

      • Barbierir

        In the following weeks people with technical knowledge should advise Frank on a good testing protocol that can settle the matter conclusively. First it must be verified if it does what it claims and then, as some have suggested, if it could contain a battery that will eventually drain or if it’s an ambient energy harvester or some other trick. I hope this matter will not be as controversial and frustrating as those old E-Cat tests with steam 😛

        • SG

          We have discussed some possible tests in other threads, but agreed, a more formal test protocol would be great.

          Many of us who have followed this website for years probably have a good sense for Frank’s genuine openness, curiosity, and trustworthiness. Assuming Steorn delivers and Frank is able to test, any results reported from this site would hold high credibility in my book.

          But I’m afraid that for those not familiar with this site, it would not be convincing given that it is not coming from a university or an expert in the field. This topic will remain controversial regardless of the test results being reported here.

          Results reported here, however, will convince many. This combined with positive results reported on other sites such as dispatchesfromthefuture would yield even more evidence and convince a larger core of people. Eventually, a brave university will take up the challenge to test and report, and so forth. There will be no one defining moment. It will happen gradually, perhaps over the course of years, sort of like LENR. In the meanwhile, Steorn will continue to improve their manufacturing processes and sell product around the globe. Of course, assuming it all works as claimed. And that is still a giant IF.

          • ecatworld

            Definitive proof from me testing one Orbo unit is probably a tall order. I won’t have all the high end testing equipment that some people will be looking for, but the good thing is that there should be many others reporting on their own experience, and together it should give a clear overall picture.

        • ecatworld

          Yes, suggested protocols will be very welcome. There’s plenty of time to try all kinds of things.

        • Anon2012_2014

          I think its a solar cell…

          • ecatworld

            That would be easy to test, put it in a box and see what happens.

    • Omega Z

      Frank
      If the Orbo contains a lithium battery, it will have a limited total output. My understanding is they naturally lose about 1% of their charge per day tho this varies by type.

      If you know the battery specs and the phones specs, you should be able to determine the number of phone charges it would take to drain it. Each additional charge beyond that would determine if it’s generating energy with increasing confidence.

      If your tech savvy or know someone who is, you may also be able to wire up some led’s or something that draws near it’s generating capacity & see if it works far beyond the battery capacity over a period of time.
      Either of these methods would confirm it actually works.

      NOTE: Do not plug that power adapter in that comes with it.
      he he he 🙂

    • Sanjeev

      What do you think about the Rosch Kinetic Power Plant generator?
      http://fcnp.com/2015/06/30/the-peak-oil-crisis-the-buoyancy-solution/

      This is another “exotic” generator that’s available for sale to general public. This has a reputation of silencing the skeptics, the demos were open for all. Its much more costlier than an Ocube, so buying and testing via contribution is difficult, but perhaps there are people who will be interested in testing it and reporting about it openly. I suggest that some effort should be made to contact such independent testers and get the news out, if any.

      (I don’t think anyone is following it except PES, but ECW has slightly more reputation, although its not enough to worry about serious loss of it ;-))

      • ecatworld

        I have read about it and am not sure about. It is very large, and you’d need somewhere to put it and to buy it you have to join a club, and travel to Europe for training. You buy it as a kit, I think and have to assemble it. I think its about 5000 euros, and I suppose you’d have to pay quite a bit for shipping. I’d be interested in reading experiences of other testers as this is too big of a project for me.

        • Sanjeev

          Yes its impractical for one person, that’s why I suggested the above way.
          Strangely there is a deep silence on the net about KPP since Aug 2015.

  • Frank Acland

    There’s not a huge amount of credibility or reputation to lose here in my opinion, since we’re on the fringes already.

    My motivation for the site has been to explore LENR as accurately and honestly as I can, and the same will be the case for Orbo.

    As far as accepting Orbo as being what Steorn claims it to be, we can’t do that yet. I have my own reasons to be optimistic about Orbo, which is why I have ordered one, but we can’t know for sure yet.

    One nice difference here is that it looks like an actual Orbo product can be tested, and so it will be much easier to make an evaluation of the technology than in the case for the E-Cat, where there’s only second-hand information at this point. Even so, I find the evidence in favor of the E-Cat’s validity to be convincing.

    • SG

      I agree with what you are trying to accomplish. I see three possibilities unfolding in the next weeks regarding Orbo.

      1) Orbo is shipped. It works as claimed. There is no going back.
      2) Orbo is shipped. It doesn’t work as claimed at any venue that does the testing and reporting. There is little chance of Steorn moving forward.
      3) Steorn’s efforts to ship working product are sabotaged.

      Regarding 3), lest you think I’m being over dramatic, consider the well-organized efforts to sabotage LENR in its early days (and to some extent, even today). Where financial interests are at stake, we must be always vigilant of this possibility. Shaun is not one to go down without a fight, so if there are efforts to disrupt their plans, I doubt Steorn will go quietly.

      • Anon2012_2014

        1) Orbo is shipped. It works as claimed. There is no going back.
        2) Orbo is shipped. It doesn’t work as claimed at any venue that does the testing and reporting. There is little chance of Steorn moving forward.
        3) Steorn’s efforts to ship working product are sabotaged.

        You left at (4)

        4) Orbo doesn’t ship in the next weeks. Steorn makes up some hand waving reason why they can’t ship one for a third party to publicly validate.

        I give them 10 weeks to ship one of these to Frank.

        • SG

          Yes, this is possible as well. Although might be hard to discern between 3 and 4.

    • modernsteam

      Hi Frank,

      I love what you’ve said above! And you’re doing it in the right scientific manner as well: no declarations of fact without observed proof. Now the naysayers can’t get after us for being deluded dupes about what “conventionals” say is “pseudo-science”.

      Just to finish off, are you familiar with Bill Alek and his and Aurora Light’s company, Auroratek? In your referring to Steorn’s last development stage being “solid state” – ie., motionless energy conversion, Bill’s also doing R&D in motionless “over-unity” energy technology, but uses permanent magnets in the main to get there. I don’t know whether he’s involving electrets as well, but his being an electrical engineer, I’m sure he’s familiar with them.

      I’ll leave you with Bill’s/Auroratek’s “science” web-page just in case you haven’t yet accessed it::

      http://auroratek.us/SCIENCE.html

      Have a good read, Frank!

      Hal Ade
      Gatineau, QC, Canada.

    • Omega Z

      Frank
      If the Orbo contains a lithium battery, it will have a limited total output. My understanding is they naturally lose about 1% of their charge per day tho this varies by type.

      If you know the battery specs and the phones specs, you should be able to determine the number of phone charges it would take to drain it. Each additional charge beyond that would determine if it’s generating energy with increasing confidence.

      If your tech savvy or know someone who is, you may also be able to wire up some led’s or something that draws near it’s generating capacity & see if it works far beyond the battery capacity over a period of time.
      Either of these methods would confirm it actually works.

      NOTE: Do not plug that power adapter in that comes with it.
      he he he 🙂

    • Sanjeev

      What do you think about the Rosch Kinetic Power Plant generator?
      http://fcnp.com/2015/06/30/the-peak-oil-crisis-the-buoyancy-solution/

      This is another “exotic” generator that’s available for sale to general public. This has a reputation of silencing the skeptics, the demos were open for all. Its much more costlier than an Ocube, so buying and testing via contribution is difficult, but perhaps there are people who will be interested in testing it and reporting about it openly. I suggest that some effort should be made to contact such independent testers and get the news out, if any.

      (I don’t think anyone is following it except PES, but ECW has slightly more reputation, although its not enough to worry about serious loss of it ;-))

      • Frank Acland

        I have read about it and am not sure about it. It is very large, and you’d need somewhere to put it and to buy it you have to join a club, and travel to Europe for training. You buy it as a kit, I think and have to assemble it. I think its about 5000 euros, and I suppose you’d have to pay quite a bit for shipping. I’d be interested in reading experiences of other testers as this is too big of a project for me.

        • Sanjeev

          Yes its impractical for one person, that’s why I suggested the above way.
          Strangely there is a deep silence on the net about KPP since Aug 2015.

  • Patrik Wiksten

    Great Frank! I have made much the same journey myself although I never was a member of SKDB. I also feel good about the Orbo technology and awaits testing with anticipation. Good Luck!

    • ecatworld

      Thanks, Patrik. For me it’s not so much that I ‘feel good’ about Orbo as a technology (it really does sound like a miracle) — Rather it’s the bits of evidence I’ve picked up over the years about Steorn that lead me to conclude that there’s something more than a fantasy or fraud going on with them.

      As much as I’d like their technology to be real, it needs to be tested out before I think we can come to a firm conclusion.

      • Omega Z

        Just a thought Frank
        For expanded interests, you could do something similar to the Always open Thread.

      • Bruce Williams

        Hi Frank, it’s interesting to read your history of curiosity in the Energy field, I think many of us would have travelled along a similar path.I feel optimistic about the Orbo too, good luck and have fun with your testing!

  • Patrik Wiksten

    Great Frank! I have made much the same journey myself although I never was a member of SKDB. I also feel good about the Orbo technology and awaits testing with anticipation. Good Luck!

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks, Patrik. For me it’s not so much that I ‘feel good’ about Orbo as a technology (it really does sound like a miracle) — Rather it’s the bits of evidence I’ve picked up over the years about Steorn that lead me to conclude that there’s something more than a fantasy or fraud going on with them.

      As much as I’d like their technology to be real, it needs to be tested out before we can come to any firm conclusion.

      • Omega Z

        Just a thought Frank
        For expanded interests, you could do something similar to the Always open Thread.

      • Bruce Williams

        Hi Frank, it’s interesting to read your history of curiosity in the Energy field, I think many of us would have travelled along a similar path.I feel optimistic about the Orbo too, good luck and have fun with your testing!

  • John Schut

    I would wait with changing the name of this site till after you have tested the Orbo extensively.

  • John Schut

    I would wait with changing the name of this site till after you have tested the Orbo extensively.

  • Hhiram

    “If Orbo power density can be improved, I can easily see it being engineered into devices like computers, televisions, computers, lights, refrigerators, fans, pumps, motors, etc. that never need to be plugged into a power outlet, and which will supposedly never run out electricity — something certainly considered impossible by today’s science.”

    Sorry Frank, but you seem to not be understanding where the Orbo gets its energy from. These devices are syphoning ambient energy, not producing it from an internal fuel source. That means the power density is fundamentally limited by the ambient energy available, not by anything within the device itself.

    It’s exactly like solar panels. The panels harvest external energy, so they are limited by how much light falls on them. They could never produce more energy than they receive. Once you’ve maxed out their efficiency, the only way to increase their electricity output is to make them larger.

    The ambient energy the Orbo harvests is at best a combination of kinetic, magnetic, and electrostatic. Most likely (from what little detail is public) it is just kinetic, like a self-winding watch. Unless you’re on the deck of a ship in choppy water, the amount of energy available to harvest is going to be tiny. To run a large electrical device like a computer the Orbo would have to be huge.

    This also means that the Orbo will never compete with LENR. The E-Cat has a fuel source. Orbo technology does not.

    • Frank Acland

      That is the assumption of a number of people — that Orbo is an ambient energy harvester, but Steorn claims that’s not the case. They say it is an energy generator, and that’s what I hope that we can test when we get the O-Cube.

      • Hhiram

        In that case, I apologize. I didn’t realize they were making any strong claims that it is a self-contained energy source with a fuel of some kind. I thought they were basically saying, “we’re not sure where the energy is coming from when we put a few magnets and electrets together,” which led many of us to indeed assume ambient energy harvesting.

        Good luck with your testing, I’ll be very keen to see the results.

      • Zephir

        /* Orbo is an ambient energy harvester, but Steorn claims that’s not the case */

        IMO it’s impossible just with respect to massive aluminum metallic case, which the Orbo-Cube gets equipped with.

        • Sanjeev

          Are you sure its Al case ?
          If yes, why not just use plastic and reduce the cost by half? I don’t think a heavy Al case is essential for orbo function. They can save some good money here.

          • Zephir

            Yes, they could – it’s a prototype, i.e. suboptimal design adjusted to rather luxurious price of this device.

    • Roland

      Stick a magnet to your fridge, come back in a couple of decades and observe that the magnet is still there defying gravity, get out your calculator and determine how much energy is required to hold it in place over that period.

      Having done that ask yourself a simple question. Where has the energy to do that much actual ‘work’ come from?

      Hint, saying “Well it’s a magnet and that’s what magnets do” demonstrates a significant lack of curiosity. Other attributes aside it is an abiding curiosity and an absolute determination to understand phenomena that distinguishes someone like Andrea Rossi, and possibly Shaun McCarthy, from us lesser lights.

      Do please allow the data to speak first and then form an opinion as Frank will have an actual device in hand shortly. There is a possibility that someone has answered this simple question and figured out how to tap this energy directly; if so Frank is quite correct in saying this is very important, it is.

      • fact police

        get out your calculator and determine how much energy is required to hold it in place over that period.

        Having done that ask yourself a simple question. Where has the energy to do that much actual ‘work’ come from?

        Work is force through distance. Since, holding something in place corresponds to a force through zero distance, my calculator says the amount of work required is 0.0 joules.

        • Private Citizen

          No work is done holding a 500 lb bar-bell above your head either, or keeping a helicopter hovering, but energy certainly must be expended.

          How a magnet adheres to a vertical or even an inverted service is not a trivial question for me either. I suspect eventually the domains will re-orient and the magnet will fall.

          • Hador_NYC

            The helicopter example is false. The helicopter is held aloft by pushing down on air. That movement of air is work. The movement of the blades which moves the air is work.

            The example of your arm is different. From the perspective of the barbell, certainly there is no work as there is no movement. Biological systems are not my thing, so I don’t know how to explain that. My hunch is that the contraction of the muscles, work, and then the movement of your heart to move blood and fuel around, the processes of the mitochondria to release energy to enable the cells to remain contracted all are work. Thus the other commenters points about work requiring movement still apply. Now granted all of this is in physics textbooks, but I just wanted to save you the time to look it all up.

        • Tim

          Or use your arm to hold a piece of non-magnetic metal to the side of your fridge and tell me how long you can do it or whether you feel like you’re expending energy. If zero energy were being expended, the magnet or the metal in your hand would fall to the ground, energy is being expended to counteract the force of gravity.

      • lenrdiy

        >>Where has the energy to do that much actual ‘work’ come from?<<

        There lies your misunderstanding. A magnet sticking on a fridge doesn't do any more work than a can of coke standing on top of the fridge. No curiosity required to figure that out. Grade school level physics is all you need to understand what the difference between force and energy is.

      • TOP

        One must not underestimate the power of prejudice. I personally have studied “free” energy technologies starting about in 1997 when I could have a good access to the internet and all the information (and also disinformation) in there. However, because of what I had been learnt in the university and from the media, I considered “cold fusion” to be junk science up until Rossi’s demonstration in 2011. One of the strongest prejudices is that there’s no aether as was demonstrated by the Michelson-Morley experiment in the 1880’s. But did this experiment really prove that and if the aether exists what kind of susbstance it is?

        According to Jean-Francois Geneste the aether is “…made of infinitesimal size particles which can interact with the ones making our scale particles…” (http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/17/lenr-from-experiment-to-theory-paper-by-jean-francois-geneste-airbus-group/). Maybe it also contains continuous particle flows which can be used to perform work in the “material” world with suitable arrangements?

        Another issue that often causes confusion are the terms energy, power and work. For example Tom Bearden has proposed that all electrical devices actually use the energy from the aether but because they are constructed to use current in a closed loop the energy gathering mechanism is frequently interrupted and must be created again which requires work and thus “COP” is always <1. Jim Murray has reconstructed Tesla's power amplifier and claims to be able to get the device output about 20 times more power than is needed to run it. If you energize a coil and do some work with the magnetic field it generates then you can de-energize the coil and with suitable arrangement recover the energy from the coil and use it again. So "free energy" is an incorrect term – it should be "free power".

        The internet is full of "information" but really trustworthy knowledge can be obtained making own experiments and observing the results. I have done that mostly with permanent magnets and also with trying to build a GEET reactor for an internal combustion engine. From my own experience I can say that with suitable arrangements some permanent magnet assemblies behave quite a different way that one would assume them to do. For example a 2-to-1 three-dimensional assembly can create a repulsive force when only attractive forces should be present. So having a physical product available to be purchased and tested by oneself is very good method to find out what it really can do and that should soon to be possible with the Steorn O-Cube and oPhone.

      • Don’t mix up “energy”, “work” and “force” 😉

        • Curbina

          You are very correct. That said, I have always found funny that when the seminal work of what is now known as Conservation of Energy by Hermann von Helmholtz was published, it was entitled “On The Conservation of Force”.

        • Timar

          I’m sure every Star Wars fan knows the difference 😉

      • Sanjeev

        I get your general argument and agree with the need to remain open minded in science. That’s how science progresses, question everything. But your example, which you used to make a point in not correct as others below are pointing out. No energy is expended when the system is in equilibrium. Energy is needed to change things. The magnet is already in lowest state of energy when its stuck and nicely in balance with gravity, nothing moving, no work done.

        However, you can still poke holes in the law of CoE, if you think deeper. Its valid only for closed systems. Do we really know that this universe is a closed system ? Even very high profile scientists religiously assume that its closed, its deeply imprinted on their mind, they do not question it.

        How did the whole universe with its vast energy came out of nothing? If CoE was born with it, can it die locally somehow? Why is energy quantized? What is the relation of energy in physical universe and consciousness? (They seem to interact according to QM). There are a lot more questions and somehow students are brain washed with religious answers, no effort is made to make them curious enough to ask questions.

      • JosBos

        No work is being done. Placing a magnet on a fridge is directly analagous to placing a magnet on a table. In both cases gravity is being defied in so far as the magnet does not reach the floor. However no energy is expanded in either case.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Me? I’ve decided to build a rocket stove. Burns sticks and limbs that otherwise would have to be hauled to the street………and the city would then have to load up and tote to the landfill. Based on all those savings, my rocket stove should have an energy co-eficiency of several hundred. I also have a garden that would suck up all those troublesome carbon whatevers.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi4GiW3kW-Q

  • ecatworld

    That is the assumption of a number of people — that Orbo is an ambient energy harvester, but Steorn claims that’s not the case. They say it is an energy generator, and that’s what I hope that we can test when we get the O-Cube.

    • Hhiram

      In that case, I apologize. I didn’t realize they were making any strong claims that it is a self-contained energy source with a fuel of some kind. I thought they were basically saying, “we’re not sure where the energy is coming from when we put a few magnets and electrets together,” which led many of us to indeed assume ambient energy harvesting.

      Good luck with your testing, I’ll be very keen to see the results.

    • Zephir

      /* Orbo is an ambient energy harvester, but Steorn claims that’s not the case */

      IMO it’s impossible just with respect to massive aluminum metallic case, which the Orbo-Cube gets equipped with.

      • Sanjeev

        Are you sure its Al case ?
        If yes, why not just use plastic and reduce the cost by half? I don’t think a heavy Al case is essential for orbo function. They can save some good money here.

        • Zephir

          Yes, they could – it’s a prototype, i.e. suboptimal design.

  • Omega Z

    Actually, The Orbo sounds like a complimentary product for things the E-cat wont be suited for. I don’t care for an I-phone at a toasty 1400`C in my pocket.
    And even with a huge drop in price, I don’t think a scaled up Orbo will be useful for home heating or large energy requirements.
    But I don;t have a problem with different devices for different needs.

    • Yeah, you may be right, for a period of time. I would bet that, in the long run, Orbo, or something derived from it, would be able to be scaled up – assuming that it works, of course. Well, I guess that we’ll have to wait and see what happens.

  • gdaigle

    The patents below cover the electromechanical Orbo and the solid state component Orbo, but so far nothing covering the electret version is available.

    Patents:
    EP2514081
    WO2011110951

  • nightcreature3

    You’re right. There is no free energy in Steorn’s devices. Just some novel ideas to keep the kids amused. Take it from someone who has tested an “Orbo” for over-unity, himself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7FB8bfNuAw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcNn4aRz8mg

  • Private Citizen

    No work is done holding a 500 lb bar-bell above your head either, or keeping a helicopter hovering, but energy certainly must be expended.

    How a magnet adheres to a vertical service is not a trivial question for me either.

    • Hador_NYC

      The helicopter example is false. The helicopter is held aloft by pushing down on air. That movement of air is work. The movement of the blades which moves the air is work.

      The example of your arm is different. From the perspective of the barbell, certainly there is no work as there is no movement. Biological systems are not my thing, so I don’t know how to explain that. My hunch is that the contraction of the muscles, work, and then the movement of your heart to move blood and fuel around, the processes of the mitochondria to release energy to enable the cells to remain contracted all are work. Thus the other commenters points about work requiring movement still apply. Now granted all of this is in physics textbooks, but I just wanted to save you the time to look it all up.

  • Frank Acland

    I got an email from Orbo Orders today acknowledging receipt of payment for my O-Cube order (sent by bank wire). Apparently the Orbo webstore will open this week for easier online payment processing. Now just waiting for shipping — which might be in late January according to the invoice I received.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    If the device is some type of energy harvester, then the
    volume of the device would determine how much energy it can harvest. In other
    words, a 10×10 foot model would have 100 square feet of area, and output 100
    times the current smaller model.

    I mean, given they are taking orders, I don’t see why they
    don’t put say 10 or 20 of these things stacked up on each other powering a LED
    light bulb and how it continues lights.

    There is nothing that suggests that such a device WOULD
    NOT scale up in size. I mean if they have a basic working principle, then it is
    a SIMPLE matter to scale up the size of the device.

    In other words, nothing suggests that a larger device
    should not produce more power. As to why demos don’t have differing sizes and
    differing outputs much points to this being a rather expensive battery – not
    some energy harvesting device. I mean if they are ready for production, then
    MANY DIFFERENT sizes of the device must have been built and tested.

    Why bother with demos that have a battery being
    re-charged?

    Place 10 of the devices together and dump the battery –
    simply power a LED bulb for all to see. Until this issue of scaling is dealt
    with, then as noted my skeptic meter remains very high.

    Why no demos with several devices together?

    Why not a demo with a test device 10x the size (and thus
    10 times the output)?

    There is ZERO logic and reasoning that points to why this
    device would not scale up in size, and yet they are saying this is like the first
    combustion engine. No, it is not, since such a harvesting device WOULD EASY
    scale up in size. A 10x10x10 foot cube would thus have 1000’s times the output of
    existing devices and 1000 times the power. Such power is VERY significant.

    To “shroud” this in some low power battery type of device
    makes VERY little sense.

    As I stated, I look forward to the device being tested,
    but in its current incarnation, the “silence” of the scalability issues keeps
    my skeptic meter running very high.

    The battery part just muddles the water here. A few of
    these strung together powering something like a LED bulb without the battery in
    plane view is an EASY demo, but one we not seen.

    So just place 10 of these together without a battery powering
    a light bulb 24/7 would do wonders for credibility here.

    Get rid of the battery, string a few together powering something
    like a bulb would do the trick here! And it is a dead simple demo that can be
    put together in LESS time it takes me to write this post.

    I wish the orbo well, but the device in its current form don’t make a lot of sense without demos of the production of power (say 10 or 20 of them) and no battery involved.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Curbina

      basically you need 10 orbo “power packs” to keep something that requires 1W running.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Right, but they are in production mode. So a demo that strings 20 or 40 of these things together should produce some nice power and constant energy without batteries.

    • SG

      Steorn should consider selling the Orbo power packs without the battery and extra casing, etc. Then others could purchase the units and try it for themselves without the “extra” cost and other trappings. That said, the battery as a reservoir approach does make sense for mobile electronics that are used only periodically.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        I 100% agree. The battery and all that extra electronics for the battery likely represents MOST of the cost here. I would rather have 10 or 20 bare bones energy collectors. As noted, the lack of showing a bunch of these things running without a battery is keeps my skeptic meter very high.

        • SG

          Shaun did do a demo with two device placed in series. I know it is not what you have envisioned as an ideal demo, but it is something.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Sounds right. Elfe claims to be able to put out 3 watts for 3 hours per day, i.e. its always charging at 3 * 3/24 = 375 mW. Seems within the realm of Orbo.

            That is roughly the same as the solar irradiance on a 4 cm^2 square, so they are of the same order of magnitude.

            No idea about the Schumann resonance power.

            If ELFE/Orbo power density/unit area is about the same as solar, I don’t see why it can’t be scaled. What’s it gonna do, slow down the rotation of the iron core?

          • Anon2012_2014

            If the Schumann resonance is 1 picoTesla, i.e. 1e-12 T, and diameter of the flashlight coil is 3 cm, then the area is 7 cm^2 = 7e-4 m^2, so the flux is 1e-12*7e-4=7e-16. Say some how 10 meters of #24 copper wire is wound = 10/.0942=106 turns, with resistance of 0.84 ohms, I get the induced voltage is only

            106*7e-16/10 hz= 7.4e-13 Volts and the power is only
            (7.4e-13)^2/0.84 = 6.5e-25 watts

            Am I right that 1e-12 Tesla fluctuation produces only 6.5e-25 watts?

            Can someone check this?

          • BillH

            In order to do any practical tests you would first have to have a detailed specification of the device and it’s capabilities. What type of phones or tablets would it be certified to charge and at what rate? How long would each charge take? Would it be faster or slower than using the devices normal charger? The claim was made that it would be able to charge two phones in a 24hrs period. Let’s assume a phone can be charged in say 3hrs from a fully charged Orbo, does this mean that you can charge a second phone immediately after or do you have to wait 18hrs before you can charge it? either way it would suggest that it would be at least 16hrs before the Orbo recharged it’s internal battery. Longer charge times, up to 8hrs for each phone perhaps would make the device little more than a novelty. 6hrs charge-6hrs charge-12hrs Orbo recharge,or 6hrs charge-6hrs Orbo recharge-6hrs charge…

            All this within the details currently given.

          • Sanjeev

            I guess it would need at least a few inches of heavy shield, I can’t see it there, but its an interesting speculation. Even if its radioactive, it will take only a minute to find out. I think Frank should add this check to his check list.

    • Anon2012_2014

      It’s probably an energy harvester hooked up to trickle charge a battery.

      It may use more than one technology. It may be that none of them is revolutionary, i.e. they have all been seen before. By going viral and holding back a conventional device until he has a lot of order, he has perhaps sold a lot of not revolutionary energy harvesters.

      In the mean time, nothing to see here. In 10 weeks we either have one to pull apart and test, or we don’t.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    If the device is some type of energy harvester, then the
    volume of the device would determine how much energy it can harvest. In other
    words, a 10×10 foot model would have 100 square feet of area, and output 100
    times the current smaller model.

    I mean, given they are taking orders, I don’t see why they
    don’t put say 10 or 20 of these things stacked up on each other powering a LED
    light bulb and how it continues lights.

    There is nothing that suggests that such a device WOULD
    NOT scale up in size. I mean if they have a basic working principle, then it is
    a SIMPLE matter to scale up the size of the device.

    In other words, nothing suggests that a larger device
    should not produce more power. As to why demos don’t have differing sizes and
    differing outputs much points to this being a rather expensive battery – not
    some energy harvesting device. I mean if they are ready for production, then
    MANY DIFFERENT sizes of the device must have been built and tested.

    Why bother with demos that have a battery being
    re-charged?

    Place 10 of the devices together and dump the battery –
    simply power a LED bulb for all to see. Until this issue of scaling is dealt
    with, then as noted my skeptic meter remains very high.

    Why no demos with several devices together?

    Why not a demo with a test device 10x the size (and thus
    10 times the output)?

    There is ZERO logic and reasoning that points to why this
    device would not scale up in size, and yet they are saying this is like the first
    combustion engine. No, it is not, since such a harvesting device WOULD EASY
    scale up in size. A 10x10x10 foot cube would thus have 1000’s times the output of
    existing devices and 1000 times the power. Such power is VERY significant.

    To “shroud” this in some low power battery type of device
    makes VERY little sense.

    As I stated, I look forward to the device being tested,
    but in its current incarnation, the “silence” of the scalability issues keeps
    my skeptic meter running very high.

    The battery part just muddles the water here. A few of
    these strung together powering something like a LED bulb without the battery in
    plane view is an EASY demo, but one we not seen.

    So just place 10 of these together without a battery powering
    a light bulb 24/7 would do wonders for credibility here.

    Get rid of the battery, string a few together powering something
    like a bulb would do the trick here! And it is a dead simple demo that can be
    put together in LESS time it takes me to write this post.

    I wish the orbo well, but the device in its current form don’t make a lot of sense without demos of the production of power (say 10 or 20 of them) and no battery involved.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Curbina

      basically you need 10 orbo “power packs” to keep something that requires 1W running.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Right, but they are in production mode. So a demo that strings 20 or 40 of these things together should produce some nice power and constant energy without batteries.

    • SG

      Steorn should consider selling the Orbo power packs without the battery and extra casing, etc. Then others could purchase the units and try it for themselves without the “extra” cost and other trappings. That said, the battery as a reservoir approach does make sense for mobile electronics that are used only periodically.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        I 100% agree. The battery and all that extra electronics for the battery likely represents MOST of the cost here. I would rather have 10 or 20 bare bones energy collectors. As noted, the lack of showing a bunch of these things running without a battery is keeps my skeptic meter very high.

        • SG

          Shaun did do a demo with two device placed in series. I know it is not what you have envisioned as an ideal demo, but it is something.

    • Anon2012_2014

      It’s probably an energy harvester hooked up to trickle charge a battery.

      It may use more than one technology. It may be that none of them is revolutionary, i.e. they have all been seen before. By going viral and holding back a conventional device until he has a lot of order, he has perhaps sold a lot of not revolutionary energy harvesters.

      In the mean time, nothing to see here. In 10 weeks we either have one to pull apart and test, or we don’t.

      • Masterlock2020

        It’s based on an electret. So it’s clearly not an energy harvester.

  • Barbierir

    In the following weeks people with technical knowledge should advise Frank on a good testing protocol that can settle the matter conclusively. First it must be verified if it does what it claims and then, as some have suggested, if it could contain a battery that will eventually drain or if it’s an ambient energy harvester or some other trick. I hope this matter will not be as controversial and frustrating as those old E-Cat tests with steam 😛

    • SG

      We have discussed some possible tests in other threads, but agreed, a more formal test protocol would be great.

      Many of us who have followed this website for years probably have a good sense for Frank’s genuine openness, curiosity, and trustworthiness. Assuming Steorn delivers and Frank is able to test, any results reported from this site would hold high credibility in my book.

      But I’m afraid that for those not familiar with this site, it would not be convincing given that it is not coming from a university or an expert in the field. This topic will remain controversial regardless of the test results being reported here.

      Results reported here, however, will convince many. This combined with positive results reported on other sites such as dispatchesfromthefuture would yield even more evidence and convince a larger core of people. Eventually, a brave university will take up the challenge to test and report, and so forth. There will be no one defining moment. It will happen gradually, perhaps over the course of years, sort of like LENR. In the meanwhile, Steorn will continue to improve their manufacturing processes and sell product around the globe. Of course, assuming it all works as claimed. And that is still a giant IF.

      • Frank Acland

        Definitive proof from me testing one Orbo unit is probably a tall order. I won’t have all the high end testing equipment that some people will be looking for, but the good thing is that there should be many others reporting on their own experience, and together it should give a clear overall picture.

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, suggested protocols will be very welcome. There’s plenty of time to try all kinds of things.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I think its a solar cell…

      • Frank Acland

        That would be easy to test, put it in a box and see what happens.

  • Tim

    Or use your arm to hold a piece of non-magnetic metal to the side of your fridge and tell me how long you can do it or whether you feel like you’re expending energy. If zero energy were being expended, the magnet or the metal in your hand would fall to the ground, energy is being expended to counteract the force of gravity.

  • BillH

    In order to do any practical tests you would first have to have a detailed specification of the device and it’s capabilities. What type of phones or tablets would it be certified to charge and at what rate? How long would each charge take? Would it be faster or slower than using the devices normal charger? The claim was made that it would be able to charge two phones in a 24hrs period. Let’s assume a phone can be charged in say 3hrs from a fully charged Orbo, does this mean that you can charge a second phone immediately after or do you have to wait 18hrs before you can charge it? either way it would suggest that it would be at least 16hrs before the Orbo recharged it’s internal battery. Longer charge times, up to 8hrs for each phone perhaps would make the device little more than a novelty. 6hrs charge-6hrs charge-12hrs Orbo recharge,or 6hrs charge-6hrs Orbo recharge-6hrs charge…

    All this within the details currently given.

  • Anon2012_2014

    One can get 30 mW from rectifying nearby AM radio stations in the U.S. A similar amount can be received from the local WiFi router in the same room if it is nearby enough. Maybe one can get a bit more from rectifying the ELF 7.8 Hz Schumann resonance signals from lightning strikes using an inefficient antenna, or maybe using an efficient antenna based on some magic electret. One can get 400 mW from a solar cell. Maybe one can get a little bit from discharging the local electric field that Orbo sits in if it is outside. If Orbo is sitting on something that is vibrating or is in motion, it could get a bit of energy from a piezo-electric or conventional generator. My point is that Orbo might somehow make the 400 mW using conventional science. We won’t know until someone independent benchmarks it against a real DC load in the wild.

  • guga

    Frank, please, don’t change the name of the site. The E-cat is promising, the Orbo is not.

    • Masterlock2020

      Sorry, but I think you got it reversed. It’s Orbo that’s promising, and E-cat that is suspect. Orbo is here, and it is real, and it’s available for anyone’s inspection. The same is not true of the E-cat.

      • Frank Acland

        It’s not quite there yet, but we hope that there will be many people reporting on their use of Orbo products in the coming weeks once they start getting into the hands of those who have ordered them.

  • ScienceFan

    What I expect the Orbo to really be (assuming it works as advertised):
    Lots of tiny shielded + insulated high-efficiency RTG’s,
    some ultracapacitors,
    and some voltage control
    all combined in a small package.

    If i’m right it would work, but those suckers will be *heavy*. As soon as the news comes out about what it really is, people would freak out with the normal “OMG IT’S NUCLEAR I’M GONNA GET CANCER” even if it really is ‘safe’.

    • Sanjeev

      I guess it would need at least a few inches of heavy shield, I can’t see it there, but its an interesting speculation. Even if its radioactive, it will take only a minute to find out. I think Frank should add this check to his check list.

      • ScienceFan

        If the pieces of the radioactive isotopes were very small and thin, the radiation density would be low(er) and you wouldn’t need as much shielding for each one. So long as each one has its own individual shielding it wouldn’t have as much of a compounding effect when you bring a bunch of them together, and you could have a bunch of them working in parallel for energy production.

        My idea would be to have a few very thin strips offset from one another (instead of stacked or lined up) to maximize surface area for the RTG energy production and make shielding more effective, with thicker shielding at the ends of each strip. Energy from the mini RTG’s trickles into the ultracaps and voltage controls make sure it’s regulated to whatever voltage you need. (Though low voltages would work best, of course)

  • The site could be renamed OCD – orbo cat device, might cover some of our collective characteristics 🙂

    • ecatworld

      It’s not quite there yet, but we hope that there will be many people reporting on their use of Orbo products in the coming weeks once they start getting into the hands of those who have ordered them.

  • The site could be renamed OCD – orbo cat device, might cover some of our collective characteristics 🙂

  • ecatworld

    One of those should have my name on it. It looks like they are doing testing on each of the ocubes to make sure they work right prior to sending out. https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/999968_10153311908168977_5586253163906178770_n.jpg?oh=03555c749eb97a3a60b9eab4967f64ce&oe=571BF2F5

  • Frank Acland

    One of those should have my name on it. It looks like they are doing testing on each of the ocubes to make sure they work right prior to sending out. https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/999968_10153311908168977_5586253163906178770_n.jpg?oh=03555c749eb97a3a60b9eab4967f64ce&oe=571BF2F5

  • Masterlock2020

    I think Orbo would potentially be great for medical implants, since they require very low power.