Rossi Now ‘Far Less Skeptical’ About Jet Engine (Update: Rossi Increasing Time Working on ‘Game Changing’ Application With US Engineer)

Remember the E-Cat jet engine?  In March 2014 Andrea Ross reported on the JONP that he was “preparing for a pilot jet engine gas fueled hybridized with an E-Cats assembly.”  A few weeks ago I asked Rossi what had happened to this engine and he said that he had had to postpone work on it while working on the 1MW plant and the E-Cat X, but he intended to get back to work on it once the current testing was over.

Well it sounds like he has gotten back to work on it. Rossi was asked by a reader last week about the status of the project and he replied:

“I am already studying also on it, but I am still at the stage of the equations; I am working on it helped by a very good engineer, whose brother works in an aircraft manufacturing concern. It will be the priority after the heat and electric power issues will have been consolidated. Got some good ideas, now in fermentation.”

And today he made another comment about why he was getting back to work on it:

Andrea Rossi

James Watt:
Because a US engineer I am working with has given me a detail that has sparked a very good idea. It has been impossible not to work on it. I was very sceptic about engine applications of the E-Cat, now I am far less sceptic. It has been a detail, but a detail that has ignited the New Fire in the engines.
Maybe I am totally wrong, maybe not, but I am going to try.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

UPDATE: (Dec 21, 2015)

Rossi has made this comment about the jet engine work on the JONP today:

Andrea Rossi
December 21st, 2015 at 8:27 AM
Ugo Pezzotti:
The 1 MW E-Cat is stable, but we are noticing a decrease of the efficiency in one reactor, probably due to the charge: this is very interesting and we are monitoring this fact very carefully.
The E-Cat X is so promising, that I have increased the time dedicated to the jet engine design, in collaboration with a US engineer with high skills in the matter. This has been a game changing issue, because 2 months ago I was oriented to consider futuristic this kind of application in a measure to discourage immediate attention.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

It’s good to see a change in attitude here, and that AR is taking outside advice. Many people have hoped and predicted that LENR use in engines would be possible, and perhaps the breakthrough idea that Rossi is working on will bear fruit.

  • Agaricus

    You could power an electric hybrid car with about 20kWe (about 18 cores @ 30% efficiency). Not much danger of burning your tyres though.

    • Gerard McEk

      As I have said already in 2011, the best proof for the new energy source (now The New Fire) is a completely self sustaining power unit, so I welcome this development. It is only possible with an reasonable efficiency using a very hot heat source, so Ecat X will be used. A closed circuit using CO2 turbine would be perfect not only from compact design and power level point of view, but also the usage of CO2 and keeping that out of the atmosphere. Would be a cracker in the Climate Summet in France (30 Nov – 11 Dec)!

      • What’s wrong with having CO2 in the atmosphere?

        • Ophelia Rump

          Plants grow and you end up weeding and mowing the lawn.

          • Lucky to have a lawn to mow….Or not.

          • Agaricus

            I gave up on grass some time ago, but moss and algae look fine from a distance.

          • GreenWin

            Forests are nice places to have a picnic. Aside that… who needs ’em? Pests.

          • Omega Z

            “or” says the flat earther.

            In October, Industrial Heat signed papers on an R&D center & manufacturing plans in China. At about the same time, they announced plans to build a 20,000 plus square foot R&D facility in the North Carolina’s Triangle. I highly doubt this is for a 1 man band operation.

        • Gerard McEk

          Environmentalists can’t stand it, it takes their breath, however plants like it and lets them grow. So what is more important: the environmentalist or the plants?

          • Without the plants where would the environmentalist’s bee.

    • Leonard Weinstein

      You don’t need 20 kW (e). About 12 should do, part of which, in cruse mode, would recharge batteries. In addition, you need modest battery storage for acceleration. This is all that fast electric cars use on average once they have accelerated. They typically have only 100 miles on a charge. If you can recharge and cruse at the average use, you can speed.

      • Omega Z

        Tesla model D is 85kWh

        • Alan DeAngelis

          “Airliners typically have a fuel fraction between 25 and 45 percent…”
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_fraction
          A direct cycle LENR powered jet engine would be the way to go.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsCw0s0BJKY

          • So how many megawatts of heat would you need to run a 747 sized aircraft?

          • artefact

            I read: 747 needs 90 MW to get into the air.
            90 / 4 (engines) = 22.5 MW per engine.

          • Alan DeAngelis
          • artefact

            So 90 MW to lift of and 65 MW to cruise.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Hopefully we’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg of what Rossi now has. Maybe he could achieve that 90 MW for takeoff.
            PS
            Think of how much safer it would be in a crash without all that kerosene.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            PS
            This has me thinking again about coupling the E-Cat with another “impossible” effect (the TT Brown effect) that Paul LaViolette talks
            about.
            http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/07/28/new-study-supports-claims-about-em-drive-fuel-less-propulsion-system/#comment-2162219305

          • Omega Z

            “Think of how much safer it would be in a crash without all that kerosene.”

            Just think how much safer it would be if;
            “You just avoided the crash”.

            Just saying 🙂

          • Alan DeAngelis
          • Omega Z

            I can actually see someone doing that.
            Of course it would be easier if they used a selfie stick…

          • Gerard McEk

            I think it will take a while before the first Hot-cat plane takes off. I guess that the first design may be for automotive applications or standallone energy generators. It is prommissing to see that AR is now willing to think of direct electricity and mechanical power generation. Less than three month ago, he refused any thought in that direction.

          • Rossi and Industrial heat need to call up GE Aviation for help.

            http://www.geaviation.com/

          • Brokeeper

            The reverse may be true.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I think that they would be better off contacting GE Power instead. In Madison, the local utility has a dual-turbine powered co-generation facility that is essentially a 767 strapped to the ground with a huge thermal exchanger to generate steam from the engine exhaust. The system is explained here:

            https://www.mge.com/images/pdf/cogen/other/cogen_WCCFBrochure.pdf

            It can provide 100MW of electric power (50 MW from each engine) and another 60MW from a steam turbine driven off the exhaust heat. Alternately, it can provide steam for process heat or building heating.

            I toured the plant both before and after it was put into service. The engine room is quite small, but the steam generator is 20 to 30 times larger (my estimate) Surprisingly, the compressor room to compress natural gas (to be injected into the engine at high pressure) is easily 10 times the floor space of the engine room.

            Just think how much smaller it all could be if the fuel was stored in the engine!

          • Roger Barker

            A jet engine you say! There are no bounds to this wondrous technology! I just can’t wait for the
            real life applications of LENR to come to appear. As the counter says we’re three months from
            hard realization of the eCat. This wait will be agonizing, that’s for sure. With the recent claimed
            violation of Turkish airspace and the ensuing shootdown of the Russian jet, we are on the brink
            of war. LENR will go a long way for countries to realise they don’t need to fight for oil any more.
            Its going to happen soon, we all here at e-catworld know this. When will the rest of the world
            crack on to what we’ve known about for years? What we’ve shared and experienced to date.

          • Omega Z

            Wars have been fought throughout history long before Oil.
            LENR energy should reduce the frequency, but it will not bring them to an end.

            Note whats happening in the M.E. harnesses ideology for war, but in reality, It’s really all about people who want to obtain power over a select group of people. Should they succeed, they would merely extend their horizons.

            Such entities after having been left unchecked for an extended period of time take on the characteristics of the Hydra. To end this, It is necessary to repeatedly cut off the heads & burn the stumps.

            The external issues, Russia/Turkey, the China sea come about from a lack of world leadership and a Power vacuum caused when the dominate power disengages. We don’t study history to know history. We study it to know people. People are creatures of habit. We repeat ourselves.

          • georgehants

            Omega, a reply I put up to a comment from Peter on another page, seems to fit your comment equally.
            ———–
            From the earliest days the clever un-educated people would wave and cheer whichever invading army was passing through or staying.
            This group of people probably constitute 80% of any population, just wishing to get on with their lives, not caring who is in control as long as they are left in peace and who can blame them.
            The Romans where well aware of this and exploited it with great cleverness, never directly interfering in local religions for example, beyond banning human sacrifice.
            It is as you say the rich, powerful etc. that are mis-educated 2000 years later and no sign of things improving.
            Our democracy’s are, I think, little more than weekly disguised dictatorships by our psychologically disturbed controlling masters.
            How long will this open Internet last?

        • US_Citizen71

          That is max output but not highway cruising output. My Subaru has 140HP engine but only puts out a little over 20HP when cruising at highway speed.

  • bachcole

    I prefer that he focus on THE test and other small projects. I don’t want him losing his mind because his ideas are blowing out of his subconscious faster than he can process them.

  • artefact

    “Pekka Janhunen November 26th, 2015 at 12:29 PM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,
    If by engine you mean some kind of reciprocating engine with cylinders, there exists something called “Sanderson mechanism” which is allegedly an efficient (low friction, low bearing forces) way of turning reciprocating motion in rotary motion or vice versa. I mean, something which is supposedly better than a crankshaft. If you google “Sanderson mechanism”, you find descriptions and video. An official website seems to be s-ram.com. I have no experience, but someone recommended about 5 years ago.
    best regards, /pekka

    Andrea Rossi November 26th, 2015 at 12:38 PM
    Pekka Janhunen:
    Thank you for the interesting information, but we are trying to make a completely different toy.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

  • Greg Leonard

    I think the key is the new controllability which he seems to be getting with the E-catX. That would open up transport as an application.

  • artefact
  • It is possible to use weed killers. BUT there is evidence that they also give you a pain in the kidneys.
    Some CO2 in my lager is not to bad.
    But none in my ale.

    • builditnow

      If the Hot-Cat or X-Cat is reliable, jet engines could be our first introduction to LENR electricity and heat. Fundamentally a simple system with a conversion efficiency of 20% or more.
      Most of the technology is well developed and readily available. Turbines producing electricity are in most modern jets for when they are sitting on the tarmac.
      Additionally the power output of a jet engine is huge for the size and weight, flying cars could be a real possibility. There is a big effort going in in Silly Con Valley (and elsewhere) to figure out the traffic control of self flying drones, initially for the delivery business. This knowledge and experience could lead to automated self flying cars. The early phase could be piloted air taxis while the automation is figured out.

      But first, a small 1kW X-Cat charger for electric cars, retrofitted, based on a micro turbine generator. This would be a big shake up for the car industry and could arrive (relatively) quickly.

  • pg

    Mr Rossi, give us the working e-cat and we’ll be far less skeptical about engine application too.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Yeah, a retrofit of a kerosene burning 747 is probably no the answer. Totally new designs will come online as LENR evolves. With LENR much smaller aircraft could have the range of today’s jumbo jets.

    • US_Citizen71

      A redesign for sure! The wings could be made with much less metal as they wouldn’t need to house or support the 1000’s of kg of fuel they now have to. Also the lack of a liquid fuel system means the pumps, plumping, wiring and other control systems, usually with at least one backup wouldn’t be needed either. This would reduce the total weight the airframe has to support and change the center of balance of the plane. So the airframe could be lighter and other pieces and parts likely would need to be moved around to keep the plane in balance. I would expect it to take at least 20 years before planes will be powered this way as the certification for flight will be more rigorous than what is going to be required of a home unit. So I won’t be holding my breath, but fully expect it will happen eventually.

  • US_Citizen71

    One thing to remember is that only the cores, a layer of TEG material and heat fins will likely be needed. Much of the mass and volume of the 1MW plant is the fluid heat exchangers and associated plumbing, pumps and control systems. The cores likely only make up about 1/1000th or less of the volume of the shipping container.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      I think this a key to the application of the technology. You have to heat the air quickly in order to make the LENR turbine feasible. It is also important to have the enclosed volume of the air as small as possible in the area of the heat exchanger. It argues that the fuel should be mounted within the hot portion of the engine.

  • greggoble

    I’m excited by the many successful replications of the E-Cat reactor. I guess that advanced U.S. research labs as found in NASA, Boeing, Bechtel, SpaceWorks and many other nations’ labs may have successfully replicated this low energy nuclear reactive environment. Applied engineering is in the works. Thumbs up to micro-turbine application and the mention of SpaceWorks.

    A notable talk at ICCF5… in 1995
    “A Development Approach for Cold Fusion” by Bruce Klein, Bechtel
    http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue2/anotabletalk.html

    Abstract: A plan is presented for the investigation and development of the cold fusion effect, ultimately leading to implementation of commercial devices. The plan represents a methodical approach for identifying and addressing theoretical, scientific, engineering, and economic concerns. The plan is presented from the perspective of a large architect/engineering corporation which performs work in established energy industries and which is not currently involved in cold fusion. The plan consists of a number of phases designed to establish the corporation’s level and method of involvement in the field. The phased plan provides a number of decision points; at each decision point a commitment to a higher level of funding is made on the basis of additional information which has been generated by the plan to that point. In this way, the corporation can control its financial outlay, yet funding is appropriate so that pursuit of the plan is not hampered.

    OmegaZ Thanks for the turbine bit, it helps me understand… all you need is heat. The nice thing about LENR thermal is you don’t have to worry about keeping a fire lit (fuel flow, air mixture, or an errant flame out).

    Low Energy Nuclear Reaction Aircraft Feb 19-20, 2014
    NASA Aeronautics Research Mission Directorate (ARMD)
    http://nari.arc.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/SeedlingWELLS.pdf

    Slide 22
    • Turbomachinery (performance) is constant regardless of how heat is added

    SpaceWorks Advanced Propulsion System Concept Studies
    Customer: NASA LaRC 2009-2010
    http://www.sei.aero/eng/papers/uploads/archive/Advanced_Concepts_Group_ACG_Overview.pdf

    Slide 22
    SpaceWorks conducted separate vehicle design studies evaluating the potential impact of two advanced propulsion system concepts under consideration by NASA Langley Research Center:

    The first concept was an expendable multistage rocket vehicle which utilized an advanced Air-Augmented Rocket (AAR) engine. The effect of various rocket thrust augmentation ratios were identified the resulting vehicle design where compared against a traditional expendable rocket concept

    The second concept leverage Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR), a new form of energy generation being studied at NASA LaRC, to determine how to utilize an LENR-based propulsion system for space access. For this activity, two LENR-based rocket engine propulsion performance models where developed jointly by SpaceWorks and LaRC personnel.

    LENR and Microturbines
    http://gbgoble.kinja.com/lenr-energy-a-boon-for-a-microturbine-industry-boom-1712468764

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Oil hit an 11 year low today, everyone is jockeying for market share. Pundits say “over supply”, probably true to a point, put hard to believe it is the reason for a 100+ to 36 fall.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Oversupply for what time frame? Why are they oversupplying now when they were getting twice the price not to long ago with half the supply therefore making their long term holdings more valuable? Whatever would motivate holders of vast oil reserves to dump product when they have been successfully squeezing and starving markets for decades?

      It is as if they see an abrupt end for demand of their product in the near future.

      • roseland67

        Ophelia,

        If that was true, and I’m not saying it isn’t, then
        oil would never again hit $ 100.00/barrel.

        We have been waiting for almost 5 years for an LENR product and so far nothing, so I would not equate cheap oil with an inevitable introduction of LENR based energy, rather, I would suggest simple supply and demand economics, as they have done in the past.
        If, after these massive over supply gluts are brought back in line with consumption and production, oil $$$ again will begin to rise as they have done in the past,
        (As for a date, I’ll offer a guess of May, 2017).

        We shall see

      • Omega Z

        OR,
        All of OPEC aside from the Saudi’s want to cut output to boost prices.
        Who do you think They want to cut production? The Saudi’s.
        If the Saudi’s cut production, who looses market share for years after? And if the Saudi’s cut production, their foe(IRAN) will increase their production to take that market share. Geopolitics…

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Right, there is some mysterious market force out there telling the owners of that supply their oil in the ground is not going to be worth very much in ten years.

  • Sean

    Its a pity Sir Frank Whittle was not alive to see this. I am sure he and RR would adopt LENR as the next step in aerospace technology. The engines of today are very efficient due to hotter cores. Other refinements are the single crystal turbine blades. So they can easily take an ECAT heat source. But take a look around you, look at the these amazing electric motors fitted to UAV’s and now some aircraft. I think it will come down to the Ecat producing immense amount of electricity. Noting that electromagnetic is far more powerful than combustion of gasses, (as proved by the BAE Rail Gun in the US Navy). So I propose the next generation of a Jet is one driven electrically. Given that a distant possibility of an EM drive. Lets see what the future brings.

  • artefact

    From JONP:

    “Andrea Rossi December 21st, 2015 at 11:37 AM
    Brokeeper:
    As a matter of fact the E-Cat X has the potential of strong surprises.
    Again Merry Christmas to you and our Readers
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

  • HS61AF91

    Such news makes one’s heart feel good. Sending vibrations of encouragement through the LENr tunnel.

  • Alan DeAngelis
  • I saw Jay Leno riding a jet motorcycle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM7PK5d2Yug

    • builditnow

      I have a sense that 1000hp would give vertical take off and landing in a single-seater using a fan propulsion approach. The fuselage could be the “wing” with small control surfaces, much the way a rocket flies and maneuvers.
      The ww2 P52 Mustang had about 1500hp and could achieve 437mph at 25,000 ft.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang

  • mcloki

    Slow to orbit LENR engine would be great. The possibility of powered descent make it awesome.

    • Omega Z

      Powered descent is the Holy Grail of de-orbiting.
      An electromagnetic rail is already feasible to launch material in bulk to space.
      NASA had designs for a 12 miles long rail aligned with a mountain side in the 60’s. 24 miles long would allow G forces low enough to launch people. They calculated 2KW per pound launch costs. Return trips were the issue.

      • builditnow

        A scram jet (supersonic inside the engine, capable of close to orbital speeds) might work with some kind of plasma injected into the engine. Perhaps some of the hotter versions of LENR type heat would work, or, an electric arc approach. One advantage is that the lack of oxygen at high altitudes is not an issue for the LENR scram jet.

        • Omega Z

          Nuclear Thermal Rockets.
          NASA did R&D on this in the 60’s. Rather then chemical action, they proposed thermal. Heating(with a nuclear reactor) the hydrogen as a propellant rather then burning it results in doubling thrust. They envisioned doubling & tripling payload size or size reduction allowing single stage rockets.

          I can envision an aircraft that takes of conventionally then rocketing into space. A totally reusable space craft. Although, the rail gun launching of bulk materials into space is also highly viable & even cheaper.

          Maybe this is why Rossi’s right-hand man Fabiani mentions Star Trek in his lifetime.

  • Jam spread to thin gives a poor sandwich.

  • Gerard McEk

    So the 1MW reactor performance is deteriorating earlier than expected. It will probably be the COP, after 10 months of high COP, I expect. I am sure AR has not really encountered this in a setting with many instruments. He will learn a lot. I wonder if adding e.g. H2 would be helpful to reverse this.
    It is good to read that Ecat X is still very prommissing, even so much that it looks as if a jet engine can be driven. People with knowledge of this must be able to list the required parameters like temperature, controllability, energy density, etc that are required to make a jet work. That could tell us more of the Ecat X.

    • US_Citizen71
      • Gerard McEk

        There were not much technical details in that report. Looking to the time that all happend, it was probably much too early for such a development. Both nuclear fission and jet engines were in their infant stages. I do not think that we can learn much of that for the development of a LENR Jet. Even of the organizational mistakes that were made. These types of mistakes are still made, because nobody reads them.

    • Omega Z

      On JONP, Rossi has said he used various fuel mixtures in the reactors, but the charge size is identical. He likely new this was a possibility. The question I have is if this is an intentional part of the test. Unveiling an unknown.

      As to use for Jet engines. Hopefully we have people here at ECW that can enlighten us as to details. Calculating the needs is not simple. It is not a simple matter of Kilowatts, Horsepower, Btu’s or Heat. They do not convert directly to Thrust. There are additional perimeters to be taken into account. Probably need to start with thrust & work your way back.

      • builditnow

        Much of the information you need about converting jet engines to LENR is in this NASA document. Starting P16.
        http://nari.arc.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/SeedlingWELLS.pdf

        These conversions have already been done by the US military with a nuclear fission powered aircraft which reportedly flew. The power performance is practically identical to jet fuel powered jet engines.