ECW Orbo O-Cube Testing Week 1 (Feb 9 — New Video from Steorn)

I decided that once the Ocube arrived I would start a series of threads to keep track of the testing experience. So here we go. I’ll add to this post day by day until the week is up, then start a new thread to prevent the posts from getting too long.

Feb 9, 2016.

The Orbo O-Cube arrived yesterday. It was shipped last Thursday from Dublin and arrived in the US on Friday, finally being delivered to my house Monday. For some reason the tracking number got changed during the shipment, so the first tracking number I received did not work.

As I explained on a previous post, on Monday morning Steorn sent me an email explaining that the Ocube I was sent did not have a Li-ion battery in it as it was supposed to — apparently an mistake on their part. They said they would let me keep this Ocube, but will send another one with the Li-ion battery in it. The purpose of the battery is to act as a buffer which is trickle-charged by the Orbo pack which Steorn claims provides the power for the Ocube

In my first few hours of non-systematic testing I found the Ocube was able to light up some LED arrays for quite long periods of time, but after a while the LEDs would shut off. After leaving the unit for a while, it seemed to recharge. So it acted like it had a battery in it, which seemed to contradict what Steorn told me. This morning I woke up, and the first thing I did was to see if the Ocube could now charge any of my mobile devices, and it turns out the answer was no. Nothing would charge. However, it was able to light up the LED.

So this is not acting like a standard Ocube, as it is supposed to be a charger for mobile devices. So I got in touch with Steorn this morning and I think we have the answer — this has a 5F capacitor in it, not a battery.

Here’s my first video, BTW.

Some more information from Steorn regarding the capacitance.

“It has capacitance and a 5F cap, but the LI battery is needed to give it charge ‘depth’ can you take the back off there are two measurement points.”

“You have drained whatever energy is stored in the units own capacitance – it will recharge itself, if you can get the back off the unit you can measure the recharge”

I asked if the I was able to run the LED lights for a long time when I first started using the cube was because it had been building up charge for days:

“Yeah, it’s not just the 5f cap, out tech itself has quite a bit of capacitance as well (a by product, not a design feature) . . when you get the back off the unit you will be able to measure the charge build up”

Feb 10, 2016.

A quick video showing my attempts to get the lid off!

Ocube test starting Monday February 10th.

Thanks to Anon2012_2014 and Wishful Thinking Energy for providing the ideas and important supplies for this test.

We are using a PortaPow Premium USB power monitor to measure output energy from the Ocube. The USB power monitor measures voltage, current, and time to find the energy passing through the meter in mWh. We are using a resistive load for the Ocube starting at 1k Ohm. We are planning on reducing the resistance to increase the load until we reach the stated output rating of 400mW.

The meter has a stated error of less that 0.2%. It is not powered by the Orbo but has a separate battery.

0210161912

0210161911

The ocube is plugged in at 8:30 p.m. with a 1,000 Ohm resistor.

0210162032 (1)

After 45 minutes with barely any change (Voltage varied between 0.0475 and 0.0482 with no amps) we are moving to a 100 Ohm resistor.

 

With a 100 Ohm resistor the reading is 0.000V, 0.000A, 0mWh

0210162127a

After 15 minutes, removed the 100 Ohm resistor and replaced with a 10,000 Ohm one.

Reading is 0.3890 V, 0 A, 0 mWh.

Feb 11, 2016

A new short video from this morning. Sorry about the blurriness!

I’ll repeat here what I said in a comment below:

This is my thinking. This version of the O-Cube is obviously no good as a charger or for powering any kind of USB device. With the output so limited, as we have seen, I think the best benefit for people interested in getting to the bottom of what this technology is, is to open it up. Steorn says inside the cube there are built in ports for testing purposes which they say can provide useful information. Even if everything else is potted, the ports should be accessible, providing Steorn is not making that up. So that is my goal. I have an appointment to see someone this evening to look at the cube, who should have the tools and hopefully know-how to get the lid off.

Here’s another series of tests from today:

Also, I do have a weight for this ocube unit: 1101 g.

Size:
The circumference is 420 mm.
From the top of the skull to the bottom of the chin is 144 mm.
From ear to ear is 118 mm.
Depth is 39 mm.
Thickness of top casing is 3 mm.

Another short video, this time testing with the smaller LED stick. I had not tried to discharge the Ocube since the last attempt on the previous video at 11:35 a.m.

An hour later, at 3:22 p.m. I did the same experiment as the one shown in the video immediately above with the small LED stick, and the LED did not come on, nor did the power meter.

Here’s another video showing the second two tests with the small LED stick.

February 12, 2016

Here’e a video showing the behavior of the internal LED that comes on any time you insert anything into the USB port (providing there’s enough charge to activate it)

Here’s another test of the internal LED as sugggested by SG

This video shows the internal LED lighting after waiting a variety of time intervals.

Finally got the back off the ocube

0212161821a

The weight of the ocube without the back plate on is 853 g

Sunday, Feb 14th 2016

Here are some closeup photos of the ocube.

  1. There’s a little bubble of what seems to be silicon gel (soft and flexible), through which you can see what seems to be the blue casing that we have seen in some Steorn videos that enclose the orbo power packs.

0214160614

 

2. The two sets of testing terminals.
0214160615

3. The capacitors/batteries/? Someone asked the size. Each is 45 mm long and the one on the left is 15 mm wide.
0214160616

4. The complete ocube
0214160639

Steorn has been in touch with me today and said they would be shooting a video to be posted on their Facebook page late today which will show some testing of this ocube. They also said that I’d be refunded the full cost of the ocube, and also be sent a new one for free “when we are happy with the correction to our charge controller chip.” I will of course refund those who kindly supplied funds for the initial purchase of this cube.

Here’s a video showing voltage readings across the testing terminals. Video was taken about 2:30 pm on Feb 14th:

 

Here’s the latest video from Steorn

https://www.facebook.com/thebatteryisdead/videos/10153531949942672/

I just received this email from Steorn. They had asked for me to give them a reading from the test ports

The two voltage measurement points on the unit are as follows:

1) the one that is rising is measuring across our power cells.

2) the second one measures across the mega-ohm resistor. This should measure circa 14volts. That is to provide a permanent electric field that causes the Orbo cells to recharge faster and to a higher voltage level than they would with just their own inherent electric field.

The second voltage being zero is certainly a problem, I think that it is one that can be fixed for test purposes (until we get you a full unit). It will require the application of a voltage and low to no current at one of the test points – I will need to look at this in the office tomorrow and get back to you on how to go about it.

Thanks.

  • artefact

    One with a capacitor and one with a battery. cool.

  • artefact

    One with a capacitor and one with a battery. cool.

  • FC

    Thank you, Frank.
    Great job.

  • FC

    Thank you, Frank.
    Great job.

  • ecatworld

    Steorn said the nuts are a T20 torx — will get one today and take the thing apart.

    • Mats002

      But… Is the LED lighting again? Will you keep on having the LED on?

      • ecatworld

        Doing another video for that right now.

        • ecatworld

          Sorry, video messed up. See my answer above.

        • Okay, so we have a capacitor.
          But when the Ocube core is continuously delivering 0,4 watt, then you should try to add some single LEDs in a row to get as near as possible to 0,4 watt.
          And then let it run…

          In the best case, the LEDs will never die.

          To get better signal, you could let run your LED lamp to consume as much power out of the capacitor, so it’s empty when you start with the single LED.

    • FC

      Maybe the OCube is easier to test without the capacitor. I don’t know if you’ll be able to get rid of it.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        A 5 Farad capacitor at 5
        volts could store 62.5 J, or 0.01736 Wh โ€“ two orders of magnitude less than the
        energy content of a loaded Li-ion battery. That is, you could get 0.4 W for
        about 2 ยฝ minutes. Everything beyond that would be unusual.

        • FC

          That’s right, Andreas.

          But if the capacitor is removed, Frank should get 0.08 amps at 5 volts (=0.4 watts) of constant output, which may be easier to test. Me thinks.

          • HHiram

            I doubt it is constant. It is probably variable – maybe highly variable and noisy. That is probably why the capacitor is in there in the first place.

          • Zephir

            Actually it may be even possible, that without some voltage at output the recharging unit cannot work at all (a common thing for captret)

        • Ged

          Once discharged it should be done for good, too. Unless the capacitor is actually a critical part of the power generator? Generally though, a capacitor just smoothed out noise in the power source to make it more stable and safe, so I assume the same is here.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Pweet,

          Should slowly recharge the capacitor (exponentially) if we start with it shorted out. But there is danger in discharging a 3F capacitor — might burn out the internal circuit if they don’t have a current limiting resistor in series. Most of the charge is going into the capacitor at first.

          I also doubt a 100 ohm load is going to do much at my projected continuous power output of 40 mW = 20 mV ( V = (R*P)^0.5). Think he needs to try it, but also some higher resistances.

          Finally, the time constant in the RC circuit requires us to make at least two measurements so as to calculate steady state power output.

  • Frank Acland

    Steorn said the nuts are a T20 torx — will get one today and take the thing apart.

    • Mats002

      But… Is the LED lighting again? Will you keep on having the LED on?

      • Frank Acland

        Doing another video for that right now.

        • Frank Acland

          Sorry, video messed up. See my answer above.

    • FC

      Maybe the OCube is easier to test without the capacitor. I don’t know if you’ll be able to get rid of it.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        A 5 Farad capacitor at 5
        volts could store 62.5 J, or 0.01736 Wh โ€“ two orders of magnitude less than the
        energy content of a loaded Li-ion battery. That is, you could get 0.4 W for
        about 2 ยฝ minutes. Everything beyond that would be unusual.

        • FC

          That’s right, Andreas.

          But if the capacitor is removed, Frank should get 0.08 amps at 5 volts (=0.4 watts) of constant output, which may be easier to test. Me thinks.

          • HHiram

            I doubt it is constant. It is probably variable – maybe highly variable and noisy. That is probably why the capacitor is in there in the first place.

          • Zephir

            Actually it may be even possible, that without some voltage at the output the recharging unit cannot work at all (a commonly known thing for captret)

        • Ged

          Once discharged it should be done for good, too. Unless the capacitor is actually a critical part of the power generator? Generally though, a capacitor just smoothed out noise in the power source to make it more stable and safe, so I assume the same is here.

  • Stephen

    Its interesting though. Perhaps the battery is needed as an intermediate store the energy in buffer to charge the phones etc. But in effect the output is from the battery not the process going on in the device. Perhaps with this device you have more direct data on the generated energy and process going on in the device itself?

    Its great Steorn are helping with questions and advice. I hope it works out as we and they hope.

  • Stephen

    Its interesting though. Perhaps the battery is needed as an intermediate store the energy in buffer to charge the phones etc. But in effect the output is from the battery not the process going on in the device. Perhaps with this device you have more direct data on the generated energy and process going on in the device itself?

    Its great Steorn are helping with questions and advice. I hope it works out as we and they hope.

  • Frank Acland

    In regards to Mats’ question below — does the LED come back on? The answer is yes, but only for short periods of time now. Not like when I first started using the cube. If I put in the LED it will light for 10 – 20 seconds and then shut off. I have to wait a few minutes before it will charge up again. I will get some more precise times for you later when I’m more organized.

    • Ged

      Sounds like without the battery it can’t build up energy, and the capacitor is very inefficient. This is awesome, Frank! What luck getting one without a battery. Now you can measure instantaneous power generation without a large buffer (battery) getting in your way.

      So far, sounds like power is not at a constant value, but fluctuates. Fascinating! Since there is no battery, you should be able to put the ocube in situations where we can test if they affect instantaneous power (iPower) production, like a farade cage, or next to a WiFi router.

      The reason it can’t charge a mobile device like this, is a mobile device requires a specific volt/amp range threshold for the power connector (a safety feature). Now we know from your testing so far, that iPower is not enough to meet that threshold at this point, but intermittently is enough for LEDs (capacitor fill and discharge? The rate of which tells you directly the power production). Hmm. But the news is it is generating power it sounds like.

      Can you get hard numbers on the iPower?

      • Frank Acland

        First thing I need to do is to take the back off. Steorn tells me that inside are testing points where I can measure the orbo power directly

        • damn_right _man

          It might be really helpful not to have a battery as buffer.
          When Do you go to buy the thoarx screwdriver ? When will You continue today ?
          Here in my timezone it is 2 pm, so your timezone should have 7 am, or 6, right ?

          • Frank Acland

            Yes, I plan to go shopping today.

          • damn_right _man

            Hurry up ๐Ÿ˜€

        • Ged

          Oh sweet, that is remarkably handy!

    • Sanjeev

      The devices like smartphone/tablet etc have very high capacity batteries and need a specific voltage and current to charge. If the 5F cap in ocube is not fully charged, it won’t start charging these devices. Even if its fully charged (say to 5V), it will be discharged within seconds if connected to these devices and the battery indicator would barely show any change.
      LEDs take up less energy and may be that’s why you could light them up after a few minutes of “rest” time. So it does charge up, which is a good sign.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Frank, has the second Ocube with the battery shipped already? If not, did you get an estimate for when it would ship?

  • BillH

    Doesn’t it seem strange that one of the first Ocubes to be sent out doesn’t have a vital component inside it? Surely just picking it up they would know a battery was not installed?
    The postage payable for shipping would also be different and should have set of alarm bells. Calling all Ocube purchasers, have you received your product yet? and if so what condition is it in?

    • Ged

      Gotta give them props for immediately replacing it free of charge. … No pun intended, of course.

  • damn_right _man

    So, basically the recharge puts some energy into the capacitor, which is consumed by the led’s until the capacitors loading time will be below the consumption time. Can You verify that, means, can You assure, that, once the led’s light up again, they will shine always the same time , the same duration ?By that, can You verify, how long the time is, to charge the capacitor again, so that the led’s shine allways the same period of time ? What about those nuts ?

  • DrD

    If the battery version is dealyed and if you have a Li-ion battery handy, why not connect it across the output. Of course that may or may not emulate the way it works, there may be a boost converter in there with the battery storing charge at a lower, or higher potential.
    Intriguing.

  • Okay, so we have a capacitor.
    But when the Ocube core is continuously delivering 0,4 watt, then you should try to add some single LEDs in a row to get as near as possible to 0,4 watt.
    And then let it run…

    In the best case, the LEDs will never die.

    To get better signal, you could let run your LED lamp to consume as much power out of the capacitor, so it’s empty when you start with the single LED.

  • Zephir

    /* this has a 5F capacitor in it, not a battery */
    This is a good improvement, as it would eliminate the need of occasional replacement of battery. But the capacity per volume of ultracapacitors is much lower than this one lithium batteries.

    • Blue Energy

      Pretty exciting for you, Frank, to have apparently been chosen to be the first person in the world to test an O-Cube. Congratulations on your additional prestige. In recognition of your new position as ‘tip-of-spear’ we’ll try to avoid bothering you too much with our questions and advice so that you will have time to actually test it. We’ll fail, of course, but we’ll try.

  • Zephir

    /* this has a 5F capacitor in it, not a battery */
    This is a nifty improvement, as it would eliminate the need of occasional replacement of battery. But the capacity per volume of ultracapacitors is much lower than this one lithium batteries.

  • Hi Frank, If you go to a auto parts place (do you have Autozone where you live) you can find the right socket that will take the back off. Those heads are supposed to be tamper proof, but only to the average person and because you are above average you should have no problem.

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks for the advice, Barry. We have O’Reilly’s and hope they’d have it.

  • Frank Acland

    Some new comments above from Steorn.

    • This “[…] can you take the back off there are two measurement points[…]” and “[…] when you get the back off the unit you will be able to measure the charge build up […]” absolutely looks like they deliberately sent you this “without-battery”-orbo because they knew you will report about it to a huge crowd of readers.

      And they knew it will prove and convince more than an orbo with battery.

      • Ged

        Even if not, it is incredibly fortunate for testing purposes. If Frank can get it open, there is so much that can be measured and learned about the device. This is actually surprisingly exciting, all from a “mistake” in shipping.

      • FC

        I totally agree, barty.
        Plus, they’ve given him the exact model of the screws.
        And it’s probably not potted.
        Steorn definitely want ECW to tell the world that Orbo works.

        • FC

          Oh, and I forgot. They’re sending Frank an extra OCube for free so that he can strip this one open.

          Which is all great for us, by the way. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • They should send some free ocubes to popular science magazines like wired, so that they can test and report.

            Most major consumer electronic companies are doing so.

          • damn_right _man

            Yes, I also would say, this would look much more serious, than shipping a device without a vital part to a customer, who had paid already^.

          • FC

            True.
            Maybe they fear that the mainstream press won’t be as open minded.

          • Maybe after a few weeks when a lot of “amateurs” talk positive about it.

          • FC

            Yes.
            It will be very interesting to see how the mainstream media react in the next few weeks if the test on course yields positive results. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • SG

            I predict they won’t mention it for quite some time.

          • SG

            There is a history. It isn’t going to happen. But Steorn have welcomed the techie review sites to purchase one for themselves if they wish.

    • Ged

      I saw some ideas below to actually remove the capacitor, but I think this battery-less testing unit is pretty precious. Probably we shouldn’t modify its circuits directly unless there’s absolute confidence it won’t break it. Once the one with the battery arrives, we can do a lot more testing of the direct consumer claims (mobile recharging), and once you’re satisfied with all the tests you can do with that, maybe that one we can strip out.

      Though, if it’s always charging, there’s always a risk of electrical shock.

      • FC

        Ged,
        The suggestion of removing the capacitor was made before knowing that there are measurement points inside the OCube. Now, there’s no point in doing that.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Test first, break later. Let’s get the data out of this unit. I really want to know what it can do.

  • ecatworld

    Heading out the door to do some shopping.

    • Ged

      Good luck!

    • damn_right _man

      So, already bought the stuff, You need ?

    • georgehants

      Admin, this is no time to be shopping, eating, sleeping or using the loo.
      There are millions of scientists on-line from all over the World that have never heard of open-science and who will be wanting continuous updates.
      Plus I may wake up in the middle of the night and will want to know the current situation.

      • Ged

        So many people living vicariously through one.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Probably headed out to buy the above test components.

  • Frank Acland

    Heading out the door to do some shopping.

    • Ged

      Good luck!

    • damn_right _man

      So, already bought the stuff, You need ?

    • georgehants

      Admin, this is no time to be shopping, eating, sleeping or using the loo.
      There are millions of scientists on-line from all over the World that have never heard of open-science and who will be wanting continuous updates.
      Plus I may wake up in the middle of the night and will want to know the current situation.

      • Ged

        So many people living vicariously through one.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Probably headed out to buy the above test components.

  • Blue Energy

    Pretty exciting for you, Frank, to have apparently been chosen to be the first person in the world to test an O-Cube. Congratulations on your additional prestige. In recognition of your new position as ‘tip-of-spear’ we’ll try to avoid bothering you too much with our questions and advice so that you will have time to actually test it. We’ll fail, of course, but we’ll try.

  • A simple multimeter could be used to measure voltage and current. First, let it charge (the 5 F capacitor only version), then measure the voltage before any LEDs are connected. Connect the LEDs and see what happens to the voltage with time. Next time, after recharging the same amount (same period of time), measure the current when connecting the LEDs. This would give some idea of the charging efficiency.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Simple method:

      1) Get some 1/2 watt resistors as a load. You can get them at Radioshack or order them on line.

      2) Get 3 or 4 sets of leads with alligator clips at both ends, preferably insulated.

      3) Get a USB cable that plugs into the Orbo of appropriate type (male or female, USB, mini-USB, micro-USB, etc…).

      4) Cut and strip the insulation from the wires from within the USB cable to different length (to prevent inadvertent shorting). Identify the power and the ground wire.

      5) Start with a high resistance for the load, say 1 megohm. Clip from the power lead to one end of the resistor.

      6) Clip from the resistor to a cheap digital multimeter positive input with a sensitive (microamp) current scale.

      7) Clip the ground on the multimeter to the ground wire of the USB.

      8) Clip a second digital multimeter with a sensitive volt scale to the power cable coming out of the USB.

      9) Clip the ground of the second (voltage) multimeter to the ground.

      Power = V*A

      Orbo has a giant 3F capacitor that will have a huge time constant.

      Post the results when starting and after 1 hour. Should be something like

      5 volts, 5 uA both times = 25 uW

      10) Reduce the resistance by 10x (i.e. 100Kohm, 10Kohm, 1Kohm, etc…) until the steady state voltage.

      should be something like

      1M: 5 volts, 5uA, 25 uW (no noticeable decay in 1 hour) (RC Time constant = 34 days)
      100K: 5 volts, 50uA, 250 uW (no noticeable decay in 1 hour) (RC time constant = 3.4 days)
      10K: 5 volts, 500uA, 2.5 mW (decays 2% in 1 hour) (RC time constant = 8.33 hours)
      1K: 5 volts, 5mA, 25mW start; 2 volts, 2 mA, 4 mW after 1 hour (RC time constant = 0.83 hours)
      100 ohm: 0.45 volts, 4.5 mA start and finish (RC time constant = 5 minutes)

      That is enough data for us to figure out the rate of charge/discharge on the capacitor and thus the continuous power output of the device under optimal loading conditions.

      • SG

        Or just bypass the capacitor and measure at the terminals of the Orbo power pack.

        • Annet de Graaf

          In this stage I would ask myself Frank” “Will it blend?”. After ten years of waiting for this moment you have received the wrong delivery, and now you nerdies (with all respect, I love nerdies) are waiting for the DaVinci code to be unraveled? And mr. Shaun McCarthy is on his way to Temptation Island with your money. Or psychiatric hospitalized for that matter.

  • A simple multimeter could be used to measure voltage and current. First, let it charge (the 5 F capacitor only version), then measure the voltage before any LEDs are connected. Connect the LEDs and see what happens to the voltage with time. Next time, after recharging the same amount (same period of time), measure the current when connecting the LEDs. This would give some idea of the charging efficiency.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Simple method

      See post in main thread above.

      • SG

        Or just bypass the capacitor and measure at the terminals of the Orbo power pack.

    • Pweet

      The problem with using a LED is that the current does not change in a linear manner with voltage.
      When the voltage drops below 4 volts they draw almost no current at all. above 4 volts the current goes up rapidly.
      By using a simple 100 ohm resistor, all you need to do to determine voltage and current and power is to measure the voltage across the resistor with a multimeter. They are cheap and quite accurate.
      If the resistance value is 100 ohms, then there is an easy relationship between volts and amps and thus the power.
      1 volt across the resistor equates to 10 milliamps etc as I wrote above. 5 volts equates to 50 milliamps. and a power of v^2 / R = 5^2 / 100 = 0.25 watts. All easy numbers to calculate.
      This avoids the possibility of insertion errors caused by internal resistances of current meters, if you used one, so best not to.
      Even cheap multimeters have very high internal resistances so there will be almost zero loading of the voltage by doing the voltage check across the load resistor.
      It will be a very simple and accurate test at minimal cost.

      Always keep the tests and numbers simple to avoid errors.

  • Pweet

    I wouldn’t be opening it up at all until it has been tested thoroughly. There is a good chance you could wreck it and then all tests will end.
    You can learn an awful lot about something just on the basis of a ‘black box’ testing.

    The 5 farad capacitor fits my earlier assumption that it possibly had an ultra capacitor in it. Apparently it has.
    Ultra capacitors are the last word in high capacity storage. You can start up cars with them. They are expensive.
    5 farads is some serious storage and pretty much eliminates the need for a battery.

    You can still do all the tests to see what the steady state recharge rate is for the cube.
    Simply run the capacitor flat and then check what current the cube will generate into a simple resistor load.
    A 100 ohm half watt resistor would do the job as a load and you can measure the voltage across the resistor to determine what current the cube is generating.
    The current is given by Current = Volts / resistance. Thus a voltage of 1 volt across a 100 ohm resistor would equate to a current of 0.010 amps = 10ma. 2 volts = 20ma, 3 volts = 30 ma,.. etc.

    The power output is given by (voltage squared) divided by resistance, which for a 100 ohm resistance means 10 milliwatts for 1 volt volt across resistor, 40mw for 2 volts, 90mw for 3 volts, 160mw for 4 volts, 250mw for 5 volts. All easy numbers.
    The maximum voltage of the cube will top out slightly over 5 volts so the power will top out at 250 milliwatts for the 100 ohm resistor.
    They say it can produce 400 milliwatts so it should reach the 5 volt maximum voltage.

    At such low powers it might need some hours to reach the steady state condition where the recharge rate exactly matches the discharge rate, so the first value you get when setting it up will not be the right value. Leave it running for as long as ti takes to make sure the value is no longer changing. When that condition has been reached, you can calculate the output power of the cube.
    Power (watts) = Voltage squared divided by resistance.

    If the voltage reaches 5 volts, you can reduce the resistance value to 56 ohms.
    With a 56 ohm load resistor the power at 5 volts output is 5^2 / 56 = 25/56 = 0.446Watts or 446mw.
    If the voltage still exceeds 5 volts then it is generating more power than the stated 0.4 watts.
    If it does, you can try a 27 ohm resistor and in the unlikely even that it still reaches 5 volts output voltage, it would equate to an output power of 5^2 / 27 = 25/27 = 0.926 watts.
    It is unlikely to hold this power output for a long period because it is well above the specs. It wont damage anything; it just wont hold that power output for an indefinite period without flattening the capacitor.

    Oh,. and you can’t damage ultra capacitors by running them flat so don’t be fussed if you overload it to zero output voltage.
    You can damage lithium batteries by running them flat so probably don’t do this test if you get one with a battery in it, although I would think there would be circuitry in it to prevent complete discharge of the lithium battery.
    In fact, the circuitry may even remain active without the battery fitted so maybe there will be a sharp cutoff in voltage output below about 3 volts.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Pweet,

      Should slowly recharge the capacitor (exponentially) if we start with it shorted out. But there is danger in discharging a 3F capacitor — might burn out the internal circuit if they don’t have a current limiting resistor in series. Most of the charge is going into the capacitor at first.

      I also doubt a 100 ohm load is going to do much at my projected continuous power output of 40 mW = 20 mV ( V = (R*P)^0.5). Think he needs to try it, but also some higher resistances.

      Finally, the time constant in the RC circuit requires us to make at least two measurements so as to calculate steady state power output.

    • mike wolf

      yea, you are probably right pweet, don’t open yet.

  • ecatworld

    This is not a regular torx screw

    • Ged

      Maybe the autoparts store folks can identify it? If there is an electronic appliance repair store nearby, they should know what it takes, since it looks like the sort seen on appliances.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Tamper resistant Torx. You will have to order one. Sears and Amazon has them. PITA.

    • damn_right _man

      You did not take the picture to the shop ? Dude, prepare Yourself better, now You have to walk back again and this time take the pic with You. BTW, I could have said, that this is not a regular torx.
      Standard torx do not have the pin inside. But it is simple, this additional pin gives the torx a special name ” torx with pin” and they belong to the “secure torx screw” variant of screws.

    • Adam

      It’s called security torx I think – something like this – http://www.amazon.com/EazyPower-13243-T20-Security-Insert/dp/B000BQYJQ4

    • Andreas Moraitis

      You could remove them with a provisional tool (maybe small scissors would suffice) and replace the screws with normal ones if you want to close it again. The guarantee will anyway be lost.

    • Private Citizen
      • ecatworld

        Got the wrench at O’Reillys

        • mike wolf

          yea, you are probably right pweet, don’t open yet.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Simple method (Reposted for Frank):

        1) Get some 1/2 watt resistors as a load. You can get them at Radioshack or order them on line.

        2) Get 3 or 4 sets of leads with alligator clips at both ends, preferably insulated.

        3) Get a USB cable that plugs into the Orbo of appropriate type (male or female, USB, mini-USB, micro-USB, etc…).

        4) Cut and strip the insulation from the wires from within the USB cable to different length (to prevent inadvertent shorting). Identify the power and the ground wire.

        5) Start with a high resistance for the load, say 1 megohm. Clip from the power lead to one end of the resistor.

        6) Clip from the resistor to a cheap digital multimeter positive input with a sensitive (microamp) current scale.

        7) Clip the ground on the multimeter to the ground wire of the USB.

        8) Clip a second digital multimeter with a sensitive volt scale to the power cable coming out of the USB.

        9) Clip the ground of the second (voltage) multimeter to the ground.

        Power = V*A

        Orbo has a giant 3F capacitor that will have a huge time constant.

        Post the results when starting and after 1 hour. Should be something like

        5 volts, 5 uA both times = 25 uW

        10) Reduce the resistance by 10x (i.e. 100Kohm, 10Kohm, 1Kohm, etc…) until the steady state voltage.

        should be something like

        1M: 5 volts, 5uA, 25 uW (no noticeable decay in 1 hour) (RC Time constant = 34 days)

        100K: 5 volts, 50uA, 250 uW (no noticeable decay in 1 hour) (RC time constant = 3.4 days)

        10K: 5 volts, 500uA, 2.5 mW (decays 2% in 1 hour) (RC time constant = 8.33 hours)

        1K: 5 volts, 5mA, 25mW start; 2 volts, 2 mA, 4 mW after 1 hour (RC time constant = 0.83 hours)

        100 ohm: 0.45 volts, 4.5 mA start and finish (RC time constant = 5 minutes)

        That is enough data for us to figure out the rate of charge/discharge on the capacitor and thus the continuous power output of the device under optimal loading conditions.

        • SG

          I appreciate the careful post. But I think a more straight forward approach is to remove the lid (as suggested by Steorn) and measure at the terminals of the Orbo power pack itself.

          • Anon2012_2014

            If you have ever taken apart something and accidentally broken some wires or other component, or worse, dealt with a safety interlock, you would know why I would try to test it first as is. I don’t know what kind of hardware Stoern has a the energy collector, and I am afraid of breaking it, if it is “potted” into the case. That would ruin our day.

          • SG

            Yes, although this unit may not be potted. Shaun mentioned that if Frank opened the lid, there would be two measuring points that are accessible.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I agree that the aluminum faraday cage is a good test — but first I want to know how much power it puts out as is.

            I also can’t help but think of the tinfoil hat!

        • Wishful Thinking Energy

          Frank, what Anon has suggested is a great procedure. This is the procedure I would use if I were testing the device. To make your testing easier I would recommend getting a DC power meter such as: http://www.amazon.com/PortaPow-Premium-Monitor-Multimeter-Ammeter/dp/B00LZ07BG0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1455035429&sr=8-2&keywords=mwh+meter

          I will purchase it and send it to you if it will help.

          Measuring Voltage at the power pack terminals will not provide electrical current information. We need to know current to find energy.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Wishful,

            Good idea for tomorrow, especially recording the data on a graph (in case it is not just a simple RC circuit or in case the power output fluctuates with time of day). For today, he can do it with the Radioshack multimeters. Hopefully he has two lying around. If not, they are cheap enough.

            I’m find this very exciting. I hope it is better than an RF harvester!

          • Mats002

            Me too like Anons test procedure. Above 1F is very much, Capacitors normally comes in microF – avoid short cutting it. (Is it really 3F?)

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Itโ€™s 5 F, actually not that much. Capacitors of comparable size are used in audio amplifiers to provide elasticity and to reduce the 50Hz noise.

          • They’re substantial items though, and not cheap. I’m not sure one would fit inside the space needed for a small battery.

            http://pyramidcaraudio.com/sku/CAP500DBL/5-Farad-High-Performance-Digital-Power-Capacitor

          • Mats002

            I used to design amplifiers and power supplies, I remember having 10 000 microF and those basters was big. This is 30 years ago though. I have a vivid memory of short-cutting a big one with a large screwdriver, it was welded to that big capacitor with a flash! 5F really?

          • Andreas Moraitis

            You are right, 5 F would rather fit the high-end sector. I guess that the capacitor type that they use is different from the old electrolyte models, which were indeed very big. Maybe we can identify it as soon as Frank has opened the cube.

          • When will the unit with the battery arrive?

          • ecatworld

            I don’t know. I have asked, but no firm date.

          • Omega Z

            Security screws, potting material all explained by the presence of the 5F capacitor. This isn’t so much about securing the technology as it is about product liabilty issues.

            Imagine someone coming in contact with the Cap getting their socks knocked off. Someone who hasn’t changed their socks in a month. The stampede, the carnage, ohh the horror and the lawsuits that follow.

          • Anon2012_2014

            A 5F capacitor with 5 or 10 volts on it is not going to electrocute anyone. Voltage matters for knocking your heart rhythm off.

            The danger is shorting it out by accident. It can put out a LOT of current and explode/fry the wires with a big pop. The amount of energy stored is 0.5*C*V^2 or 250 joules. A shorted out capacitor might have an initial resistance of say 0.1 ohms, so it would draw 100 amps in a tiny wire, i.e. 1 kW for a brief period of time as it discharges. If you have ever plugged in a 1 kW hair dryer the sparking at the wall socket plug would be similar. The difference is the wall socket and the hair dryer conductors are made to conduct 15 amps (at 110 volts) and only draw 10, so they don’t heat up a lot. The wires here maybe are made to handle 5 amps, but we are temporarily drawing 100. Hence the danger.

          • Mats002

            What about ultracaps then, they should be 500 times more powerful (5000F/2.7V), see picture below from Andreas Moraitis. 500kW for a brief period?

          • Anon2012_2014

            The equations are from high school electronics:

            V = I*R (Ohm’s law — invert it to solve for I)
            P = V*A
            E = .5*C*V^2
            T = R*C

            Where
            V=voltage
            P=Power
            A=current
            E=Energy
            C=Capacitance
            T=time constant (seconds)

            So if the 5KF ultracapacitor is charged to 2.5 volts and is shorted out with a 0.1 ohm resistor, it will still only draw 2.5/.1 = 25 amps, which will give it an initial power of 25*2.5=62.5 watts. The voltage will decay with a time constant of 5000*.1=500 seconds, so the voltage will be at 63% of the initial voltage after 500 seconds.

            To blow up the capacitor, it has to either internally short, or overheat. It can be shorted by simply exceeding its design maximum voltage, at which point the insulation between the plates (probably made of very thin foil) will simply breakdown and allow a current to flow between them. Not an expert at supercapacitors, but I believe that the high school electronics algebra is always the same. So easy that a high schooler could do it.

          • Zephir

            We are actually talking about this type of capacitors here, see my comment above.

          • Zephir

            I’m working with 5 C/5V supercaps regularly and they’re quite harmless. If you short them, their leads get heated and that’s all. Of course, the shorting doesn’t prolonge the supercapacitor life, so it should be avoided.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Check. Never had one. I left the lab back in the uF electrolytic days. They were higher voltage and would spark but not be harmful.

          • Omega Z

            My post was a little tongue in cheek, but in today’s frivolous lawsuit society, even minor discomfort can result in legal issues. Thus, the manufacturer needs to show they put effort into preventing people from nonchalantly coming in contact with- in this case, the capacitor.

          • Stephen Taylor

            So, Steorn has shipped a unit to Frank and it will not charge any of his electronic devices even one time. Whatever is in the “Big Red Box” seems to be capable of supplying something like 20mW or so. If it’s a big throttled “battery” this is going to be a long and boring test. Oh well, we do need a distraction from the Rossi shenanigans.

          • You did read what Frank has written, that they accidentally sent him one without a Lithium-Ion battery? And are sending him one with the Lithium-Ion battery, free of charge?

          • Stephen Taylor

            On, that will certainly add clarity!

          • Stephen Taylor

            Sorry Esa, I just can’t get serious about this and I am in deep disappointment on the whole LENR scenario. Please, we need a breakthrough or we better start building thorium fast breeders like our lives depend on it because they do.

          • Ged

            As far as I am aware, the Ocube has nothing to do with LENR.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Hi GED, good to have a chance to say hello. My guess on this very old Steorn yarn is that It probably has most to do with chemistry, as in a large throttled battery. As such it will take an extremely long time to fully discharge it at the miniscule throttled discharge rate. Whatever “it” turns out to be I am not expecting an energy revolution from the ” Big Red Box” any time soon. I will try to refrain from commenting on this subject as I really can’t take it seriously. It does provide a useful diversion as we wait and hope for a clean energy solution. Of course I realize it likely has nothing to do with the stated purpose of this site.

          • Ged

            You are probably completely right. We’ll have to see when we get a look inside.

          • Thank you for informing me and the internets that you can’t get serious about something and are deeply disappointed in something else.

            Me, I’m still waiting for my ADGEX ELFE flashlight to be mailed out to me, after ordering it on the 29th of October 2015. I’m hoping it will finally arrive this month, and not end of March. However, the discussions I’ve seen thus far on overunity-forums etc are leading me, too, to be quite depressed about the state of affairs – there’s just too much vagueness going on.

          • Wishful Thinking Energy

            It’s probably a 5F supercap. Here is an example:
            http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/PHB-5R0V505-R/283-3520-ND/2770536

          • Mats002

            Yeah, the prefix ‘super’ didn’t exist back then – Amazing!

          • Andreas Moraitis
          • Charging your phone using one of these isn’t recommended…

            http://www.androidauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/explosions-samsung-rogue.jpg

    • mike wolf

      A good pair of needle nose pliers Frank. try and wedge them and you may be able to break them loose. I say good ones because cheap ones separate and you loose torque.

      • mike wolf

        oh, don’t squeeze them, open them to put pressure in the corner of the star points.

        • ecatworld

          Ok screws are out but the bottom plate is not wanting to budge. Got a mail into Steorn for advice. I wonder if it is glued, or stuck to the potting resin.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Frank,

            See my comment. I think you can do a lot of testing first without accidentally breaking the wires or the energy collector unit by pulling out a glued in device that may not be meant for repair. A lot of electronics (shall I say Sony) were purposefully built this way. In fact your torx screws I believe started with the same idea. One way assembly with no disassembly. You can break it apart in a few days after bench testing it as is.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Frank, not knowing how good you are with that multimeter, here’s a small Howto:

            Put it into ohm mode or continuity mode. It will beep when it shorts out. Remove the usb cable from the orbo. Cut off the cable at the other end from the part that plugs into orbo. Strip the outer insulator off the cable with wire stripper or a pocket knife (PITA). Inside you will have four wires which may or may not be of different colors. Strip the insulation off the first wire. Then see which of the above four pins it is connected to by holding one lead of the multimeter (better to use the alligator clip lead) to the wire, and then probe with the pointy multimeter lead to the other end of the cable. If it is GND or VCC (ground or the positive lead) leave it exposed and put a piece of masking tape on it so you know that is your ground or positive lead. If it is D- or D+, cut the exposed copper to the insulator and then tape it over with electrical tape). Repeat until you have identified and exposed both GND and VCC on your cable for the subsequent test.

          • That sounds very likely. It was probably made a day or so before it was posted out.

            Acetone or methylene chloride (used by plastic kit builders, so available from model shops) will dissolve epoxy potting compound. Aceton is safest as it is very slow.

          • Sanjeev

            There is a chance that the chemicals will damage the electronics and perhaps the core too.

          • I agree. I think Anon’s non-destructive testing is a best first option.

          • Sanjeev

            5F cap is a very dangerous thing. Be careful.

    • LuFong

      You need a security bit. They put those on to keep people from opening things, I think microwave ovens have these because they have a capacitor inside which can be dangerous even if unplugged. As someone mentioned below, Harbor Freight sells good cheap sets.

  • Frank Acland

    This is not a regular torx screw

    • Ged

      Maybe the autoparts store folks can identify it? If there is an electronic appliance repair store nearby, they should know what it takes, since it looks like the sort seen on appliances.

      Edit: I wonder if this could be a difference of American versus European sizes.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Tamper resistant Torx. You will have to order one. Sears and Amazon has them. PITA.

    • damn_right _man

      You did not take the picture to the shop ? Dude, prepare Yourself better, now You have to walk back again and this time take the pic with You. BTW, I could have said, that this is not a regular torx.
      Standard torx do not have the pin inside. But it is simple, this additional pin gives the torx a special name ” torx with pin” and they belong to the “secure torx screw” variant of screws.

    • Adam

      It’s called security torx I think – something like this – http://www.amazon.com/EazyPower-13243-T20-Security-Insert/dp/B000BQYJQ4

    • Andreas Moraitis

      You could remove them with a provisional tool (maybe small scissors would suffice) and replace the screws with normal ones if you want to close it again. The guarantee will anyway be lost.

    • MiloE
    • Private Citizen
      • Frank Acland

        Got the wrench at O’Reillys

    • mike wolf

      A good pair of needle nose pliers Frank. try and wedge them and you may be able to break them loose. I say good ones because cheap ones separate and you loose torque.

      • mike wolf

        oh, don’t squeeze them, open them to put pressure in the corner of the star points.

    • Dieter_G

      Yes, I have these tools. I once bought a cheap (about $15) 160pc-bitset which contained a lot of such specialties-bits, including those for this torx with a hole at their center.
      You should be able to get something alike in a tools-store.
      Its easier to buy a whole bit-set instead of figuring out the exact designation and buy a single screwdriver.

  • Tester

    It is easy to test if it is harvesting energy from telecommunication electromagnetic waves (mobile phone etc.):

    Just place the ocube in a metal kitchen pot connect the LED and put the lid on it. (Faraday Cage)

    If the LED stops the shine then it is an electromagnetic energy harvester.

    Easy to test without the need of opening the device.

  • Tester

    wrap the ocube inside aluminum foil and see if the LED continues to light, then it is definitely not harvesting energy from electromagnetic waves. Then I would be massively impressed.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I agree that the aluminum faraday cage is a good test — but first I want to know how much power it puts out as is.

      I also can’t help but think of the tinfoil hat!

      • Tester

        I also thought about it and this will actually be one of the rare cases a tinfoil hat will actually be useful.

  • Anon2012_2014

    Simple method (Posted here for easy reference):

    Parts: 1 megohm, 100Kohm, 10k ohm, 1k ohm, 100 ohm 1/2 watt resistors. Don’t worry about tolerance — you can measure them before hand to get their exact resistance. 2 cheap digital multimeters. 4 leads with rubber insulated alligator clips at both ends. 1 USB cable that fits orbo. Wire Strippers. Electrical tape. Wrist watch for timer.

    1) Get some 1/2 watt resistors as a load. You can get them at Radioshack or order them on line.

    2) Get 3 or 4 sets of leads with alligator clips at both ends, preferably insulated.

    3) Get a USB cable that plugs into the Orbo of appropriate type (male or female, USB, mini-USB, micro-USB, etc…).

    4) Cut and strip the insulation from the wires from within the USB cable to different length (to prevent inadvertent shorting). Identify the power and the ground wire.

    5) Start with a high resistance for the load, say 1 megohm. Clip from the power lead to one end of the resistor.

    6) Clip from the resistor to a cheap digital multimeter positive input with a sensitive (microamp) current scale.

    7) Clip the ground on the multimeter to the ground wire of the USB.

    8) Clip a second digital multimeter with a sensitive volt scale to the power cable coming out of the USB.

    9) Clip the ground of the second (voltage) multimeter to the ground.

    Power = V*A

    Orbo has a giant 3F capacitor that will have a huge time constant.

    Post the results when starting and after 1 hour. Should be something like

    5 volts, 5 uA both times = 25 uW

    10) Reduce the resistance by 10x (i.e. 100Kohm, 10Kohm, 1Kohm, etc…) until the steady state voltage.

    should be something like (recalculated RC time constants for 5F instead of 3F)

    1M: 5 volts, 5uA, 25 uW (no noticeable decay in 1 hour) (RC Time constant = 58 days)

    100K: 5 volts, 50uA, 250 uW (no noticeable decay in 1 hour) (RC time constant = 5.8 days)

    10K: 5 volts, 500uA, 2.5 mW (decays 2% in 1 hour) (RC time constant = 14 hours)

    1K: 5 volts, 5mA, 25mW start; 2 volts, 2 mA, 4 mW after 1 hour (RC time constant = 1.4 hours)

    100 ohm: 0.45 volts, 4.5 mA start and finish (RC time constant = 8.33 minutes)

    That is enough data for us to figure out the rate of charge/discharge on the capacitor and thus the continuous power output of the device under optimal loading conditions.

    • SG

      I appreciate the careful post. But I think a more straight forward approach is to remove the lid (as suggested by Steorn) and measure at the terminals of the Orbo power pack itself.

      • Anon2012_2014

        If you have ever taken apart something and accidentally broken some wires or other component, or worse, dealt with a safety interlock, you would know why I would try to test it first as is. I don’t know what kind of hardware Stoern has a the energy collector, and I am afraid of breaking it, if it is “potted” into the case. That would ruin our day.

        • SG

          Yes, although this unit may not be potted. Shaun mentioned that if Frank opened the lid, there would be two measuring points that are accessible.

    • Wishful Thinking Energy

      Frank, what Anon has suggested is a great procedure. This is the procedure I would use if I were testing the device. To make your testing easier I would recommend getting a DC power meter such as: http://www.amazon.com/PortaPow-Premium-Monitor-Multimeter-Ammeter/dp/B00LZ07BG0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1455035429&sr=8-2&keywords=mwh+meter

      I will purchase it and send it to you if it will help.

      Measuring Voltage at the power pack terminals will not provide electrical current information (that is unless Steorn provides a shunt resistor for measuring current). We need to know current to find energy.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Wishful,

        Good idea for tomorrow, especially recording the data on a graph (in case it is not just a simple RC circuit or in case the power output fluctuates with time of day). For today, he can do it with the Radioshack multimeters. Hopefully he has two lying around. If not, they are cheap enough.

        I’m finding this very exciting. I hope it is better than an RF harvester!

      • Mats002

        Me too like Anons test procedure. Above 1F is very much, Capacitors normally comes in microF – avoid short cutting it. (Is it really 3F?)

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Itโ€™s 5 F, actually not that much. Capacitors of comparable size are used in audio amplifiers to provide elasticity and to reduce the 50Hz noise.

          • They’re substantial items though, and not cheap. I’m not sure one would fit inside the space needed for a small lithium cell.

            http://pyramidcaraudio.com/sku/CAP500DBL/5-Farad-High-Performance-Digital-Power-Capacitor

          • Mats002

            I used to design amplifiers and power supplies, I remember having 10 000 microF and those basters was big. This is 30 years ago though. I have a vivid memory of short-cutting a big one with a large screwdriver, it was welded to that big capacitor with a flash! 5F really?

          • Andreas Moraitis

            You are right, 5 F would rather fit the high-end sector. I guess that the capacitor type that they use is different from the old electrolyte models, which were indeed very big. Maybe we can identify it as soon as Frank has opened the cube.

          • Stefenski

            I used to work in Electronics. – Technician .
            When I saw 5F I thought there must be some mistake. It will be big as a house. Ha ha
            Shows how out of the loop I am these days.
            With the small size nowadays and large capacity. (I have read some on SuperCaps now.) nano technology meaning the surface area of the internal Cap is really really VAST
            The thing may be getting recharges every time someone handles it via electrostatics. who knows ..

        • Wishful Thinking Energy

          It’s probably a 5F supercap. Here is an example:
          http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/PHB-5R0V505-R/283-3520-ND/2770536

        • Edac

          Steorn should have inserted a low value resistor (say 10 Ohms) in the circuit just in case the output was short circuited. Its a very poorly designed consumer product if it can’t cope with a short circuit.

  • Anon2012_2014

    Frank,

    Also, suggest that you try the below non-destructive testing first (4 leads, 5 resistors, 2 multimeters, 1 watch, 1 USB cable, wire strippers, electrical tape) first before opening the unit up and maybe breaking something.

    -Anon12/14

  • Anon2012_2014

    Frank,

    Also, suggest that you try the below non-destructive testing first (4 leads, 5 resistors, 2 multimeters, 1 watch, 1 USB cable, wire strippers, electrical tape) first before opening the unit up and maybe breaking something.

    -Anon12/14

  • DanG

    The screws are “tamper resistant hex screws”. Type text in quotes into google. You can buy both screws and wrenches on line.

  • Mail it to the physics department at MIT and ask them what they think.

    • Anon2012_2014

      If they are plasma fusion guys, they will simply throw it in the trash can if it works.

      • Kazm

        You seem to not have looked at their MIT cold fusion unofficial course. Peter Hagelstein is a theoretical physicist and he has a partner in the course, Michael Schwartz who is more hands on practical physicist. Schwartz got into cold fusion in an attempt to debunk it. His efforts only convinced him that cold fusion was real. He has developed a small wire like device that produces excess energy in the low watt (~1 ) area. They are highly regarded by the cold fusion community. That is why they are a prime choice for testing the ocube.

        • Anon2012_2014

          “You seem to not have looked at their MIT cold fusion unofficial course.”

          Things are not as they seem — I know the MIT course.

          Prof. Hagelstein is unfortunately treated like a pariah in the MIT physics department. They should have given him tenure. I think they would have fired him if it was not for Eugene Mallove blowing the whistle on MIT handling of cold fusion in 1989-1990. (Mallove BTW was the mentor of Steven Krivit who despite what Rossi says, is a big supporter of LENR/cold fusion research.)

    • SG

      In due time. Right now, we as an interested community get to have a first look and run our own tests. Then MFMP should probably have the next opportunity to test and publish results in real time over HUGnet. Then, after we have proven to ourselves whether or not it works, we should consider sending the unit to a university under the following strict requirements:
      1) The test results will be made public with the university’s name attached.
      2) The unit will be returned to Frank within a set period of time (e.g., 3 months).

      The first requirement, unfortunately, may cause some universities to shy away. But I’m guessing there would be at least some willing to do it. Peter Hagelstein of MIT was suggested earlier. I think Peter would be a good choice.

  • Gray Squirrel

    Li batteries always have about 4.3v across them at all times. To be fair, when testing, always make sure the voltage across the test load is greater than 4 volts. This means either increase the resistance of the test load or use several LEDs in series. Other than that, your testing results, so far, is consistent with this not being a fraud.

    • Pweet

      No. Not 4.3 volts.
      Lithium batteries have a MAXIMUM voltage of 4.2 volts per cell.
      Anything more than this destroys the battery and sometimes explosively.
      A flat Lithium battery still has about 2.7 volts across it. Any voltage lower than this can destroy the cell permanently.

  • Frank Acland

    Ok screws are out but the bottom plate is not wanting to budge. Got a mail into Steorn for advice. I wonder if it is glued, or stuck to the potting resin.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Frank,

      See my comment below on a non-destructive testing procedure made when you were out shopping. I think you can do a lot of testing first without accidentally breaking the wires or the energy collector unit by pulling out a glued in device that may not be meant for repair. A lot of electronics (shall I say Sony) were purposefully built this way. In fact your torx screws I believe started with the same idea. One way assembly with no disassembly. You can break it apart in a few days after bench testing it as is.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Frank, not knowing how good you are with that multimeter, here’s a small Howto:

          Put it into ohm mode or continuity mode. It will beep when it shorts out. Remove the usb cable from the orbo. Cut off the cable at the other end from the part that plugs into orbo. Strip the outer insulator off the cable with wire stripper or a pocket knife (PITA). Inside you will have four wires which may or may not be of different colors. Strip the insulation off the first wire. Then see which of the above four pins it is connected to by holding one lead of the multimeter (better to use the alligator clip lead) to the wire, and then probe with the pointy multimeter lead to the other end of the cable. If it is GND or VCC (ground or the positive lead) leave it exposed and put a piece of masking tape on it so you know that is your ground or positive lead. If it is D- or D+, cut the exposed copper to the insulator and then tape it over with electrical tape). Repeat until you have identified and exposed both GND and VCC on your cable for the subsequent test.

    • That sounds very likely. It was probably made a day or so before it was posted out.

      Acetone or methylene chloride (used by plastic kit builders, so available from model shops) will dissolve epoxy potting compound. Acetone is safest as it is very slow, but both will dissolve polystyrene (e.g., the red casing!). Maybe try gently inserting a thin knife blade, decorator’s scraper or similar under the edges of the bottom plate?

      But generally I agree with Anon (USB connections below)..

      • Sanjeev

        There is a chance that the chemicals will damage the electronics and perhaps the core too.

        • Dieter_G

          right, very likely indeed as acetone dissolves nearly all plastics. Polyethylene is one exception I know of.
          It definitifely dissolves soft PVC which is kommonly used as the insulating material for wires.

        • I agree. I think Anon’s non-destructive testing is a best first option.

    • Sanjeev

      5F cap is a very dangerous thing. Be careful.

      • Atomsk

        “5F cap is a very dangerous thing. Be careful.”

        No, not really. It’s most probably a standard supercapacitor / ultracapacitor , which have a high capacitance but comparatively low voltage (about 2.5V or 5V if two in series – should be written on the capacitor itself). They have very low internal resistance, so the current can get quite high if you short them (main danger here would be the heat produced). But why would you do that?

  • When will the unit with the battery arrive?

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t know. I have asked, but no firm date.

      • Omega Z

        Security screws, potting material all explained by the presence of the 5F capacitor. This isn’t so much about securing the technology as it is about product liabilty issues.

        Imagine someone coming in contact with the Cap getting their socks knocked off. Someone who hasn’t changed their socks in a month. The stampede, the carnage, ohh the horror and the lawsuits that follow.

        • Anon2012_2014

          A 5F capacitor with 5 or 10 volts on it is not going to electrocute anyone. Voltage matters for knocking your heart rhythm off.

          The danger is shorting it out by accident. It can put out a LOT of current and explode/fry the wires with a big pop. The amount of energy stored is 0.5*C*V^2 or 250 joules. A shorted out capacitor might have an initial resistance of say 0.1 ohms, so it would draw 100 amps in a tiny wire, i.e. 1 kW for a brief period of time as it discharges. If you have ever plugged in a 1 kW hair dryer the sparking at the wall socket plug would be similar. The difference is the wall socket and the hair dryer conductors are made to conduct 15 amps (at 110 volts) and only draw 10, so they don’t heat up a lot. The wires here maybe are made to handle 5 amps, but we are temporarily drawing 100. Hence the danger.

          • Mats002

            What about ultracaps then, they should be 500 times more powerful (5000F/2.7V), see picture below from Andreas Moraitis. 500kW for a brief period?

          • Anon2012_2014

            The equations are from high school electronics:

            V = I*R (Ohm’s law — invert it to solve for I)
            P = V*A
            E = .5*C*V^2
            T = R*C

            Where
            V=voltage
            P=Power
            A=current
            E=Energy
            C=Capacitance
            T=time constant (seconds)

            So if the 5KF ultracapacitor is charged to 2.5 volts and is shorted out with a 0.1 ohm resistor, it will still only draw 2.5/.1 = 25 amps, which will give it an initial power of 25*2.5=62.5 watts. The voltage will decay with a time constant of 5000*.1=500 seconds, so the voltage will be at 63% of the initial voltage after 500 seconds.

            To blow up the capacitor, it has to either internally short, or overheat. It can be shorted by simply exceeding its design maximum voltage, at which point the insulation between the plates (probably made of very thin foil) will simply breakdown and allow a current to flow between them. Not an expert at supercapacitors, but I believe that the high school electronics algebra is always the same. So easy that a high schooler could do it.

          • Zephir

            We are actually talking about this type of capacitors here, see my comment above.

          • Zephir

            I’m working with 5 C/5V supercaps regularly and they’re quite harmless in this respect. With compare to regular capacitors, the supercaps have quite high internal resistance. If you short them, their leads get heated and that’s all. Of course, the shortcuts don’t prolonge the supercapacitor life, so it should be avoided.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Check. Never had one. I left the lab back in the uF electrolytic days. They were higher voltage and would spark but not be harmful.

          • Omega Z

            My post was a little tongue in cheek, but in today’s frivolous lawsuit society, even minor discomfort can result in legal issues. Thus, the manufacturer needs to show they put effort into preventing people from nonchalantly coming in contact with- in this case, the capacitor.

  • ecatworld

    New short video above.

    • Mats002

      Frank, did you tell how many watt that LED thing need?

      • ecatworld

        About 1.5 W

        • Mats002

          There you have it guys! Who is first to calculate the energy production (or harvesting, or drain)?

          • Ged

            2.5 minutes of charging for 2.5 seconds of light, or 3.75 Joules. So ~25 mW of charging power, if I did my math right. Note the times are just estimates from me counting during the vid and the vid’s timestamps.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Didn’t it take 45 minutes of charge to get about 1 second of light?? I estimate 3.1 watts when lit based on the specs for a similar 28 LED system I saw on the internet.

            Anyway, why suffer with this guestimate of the power dissapation of the LED unit.

            Frank — please see my suggestion below in the long post sent about 5 hour ago: need two cheap multimeters from radioshack, 3 alligator clipped leads (they come in a bubble package), and some resistors graduated from 1 megohm to 100 ohm. If you don’t have another USB cable, buy one because your going to cut it in half to make the load test rig. I don’t think I forgot anything.

            Tomorrow after running the test, I suggest using a screwdriver to wedge under the back panel of the orbo to pry off the unit. It might crack the backing plate if it is glued in, but hopefully won’t ruin the electronics.

          • Ged

            I don’t have sound on, so maybe I misunderstood the new video? It lit up, ran out of power, didn’t light up for several more times till left sitting for a few minutes of video time, then lit up again. But again, no sound, so could have missed important narration.

          • Anon2012_2014

            The first time on Frank said he had left it for about 45 minutes. I did not time the light flash. Note that we could lookup the voltage thresholds for typical white LEDs of about that power to see where they should stop illuminating on the voltage discharge curve. Those LED units might also have a voltage inverter or regulator in them, although that would add cost. I see they cost from $4 to $7 on the internet, i.e. not a lot of parts or labor in them.

          • Ged

            Yeah, I did my calculations based on the second light up event at the end of the vid, assuming the first event drained the Ocube below the LED lamp’s threshold, and then it recharged back up enough by the second light up.

            It does seem fairly simple, but I would guess there must be some voltage control going on, since the array is an all or nothing light up. I did find this http://www.gizmology.net/LEDs.htm , which seems to suggest LEDs have some interesting behavior in a circuit. Maybe this can help, but my knowledge is very basic in this field.

          • ecatworld

            Thanks for your suggestion below, Anon. A very good idea. I am working on putting together that circuit.

          • Mats002

            Before we get carried away: it is possible this ‘thing’ is packed with ultracaps and that the energy stored is fed into an intermediate cap that is recharged from the cap bank. It would behave like we see now. I like to rule out this scenario first. Sorry to rain on the parade but might be joining in later on ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Ged

            Seems like Frank will have to keep a running tally of all energy drawn from it!

          • Omega Z

            If Frank gets it open, many questions will quickly be answered.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Mats,

            Even if it is packed with lets say 10K farads of ultracapacitors at 5 volts, that is only a limited amount energy storage ( .5*10000*25 = 125 kJ). That is about 2x the 56K joules of energy in the 4 AA batteries that the 28 LED light runs on for 5 hours. The Wikipedia entry on energy density says that alkaline batteries have a volumetric energy density of 1.3 MJ/L compared with super capacitors at 0.06 MJ/L, i.e. batteries are 20x denser. So they would be better off storing the energy in batteries for this trick, and it would still run out after a period of time if used at the same rate.

            Of course, if we are going to limit the discharge rate to 1 mW average, packing it with 12 AA batteries or lithium ion volume equivalent would result in 168 kJ of energy and would last an astounding 168000/.001 seconds or 5 years. The conclusion is that batteries at low powers (1 mW) will last a really long time.

            In real life, smartphones need 2.7 Ah at 4 volts for about 2 days before draining = 225 mW on average, so even jamming 12 AA equivalent batteries or supercaps, a real cellphone only would last for 8 days.

            If this device produces more than 20 mW continuous from energy harvesting outside of human created radio transmissions, its great. If it produces 2 mW which is what I expect, it has limited usefulness.

          • Not if you go on long enough.

          • Jouni Tuomela

            the time between the lower treshold of the lamp (lamp off) and the new try: xxx secs
            the time the lamp was working: xxx secs
            wattage of the lamp: 1,5 W

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Frank, would you test the motor of your new car at 16000 rpm? Wouldnโ€™t it be better to use a load of max. 0.4 W as specified?

          • ecatworld

            Yes, you are right. I couldn’t find an off-the shelf USB device rated below 0.4, But someone is sending such a unit.

    • Ged

      Interesting. If you look at the LED lamp’s USB when its plugged in, both times when it lit up there is a blue glow along the USB port, and that glow remains a little less than for a s second or so after the lamp turns off. There’s no lag between the light and that glow when it first lights up, only after it turns off, so I don’t think it’s a reflection lag from framerates, but maybe.

      • ecatworld

        No you’re right. Blue light comes on anytime something is operating

        • ecatworld

          It was not blocked, just in the moderation queue

        • Ged

          Must be an “on” indicating LED. That itself will be drawing power too, but guess we’ll just have to accept its unmeasurable existence. Does suggest the LED lamp needs some threshold of voltage to turn on (makes sense, as it turns on an entire array at once), but some power is still flowing even once the array drains the Ocube below that on threshold.

          • Zephir

            /* that itself will be drawing power too */
            Well, not quite – the LED and whole the USB measuring stick could draw over thirty miliAmps of current, which is quite comparable with alleged output of the Orbo Cube powerpack (80 mA/5V).

          • Ged

            Oh, I mean the indicator light inside the Ocube that glows around the USB port when something is drawing power through the USB — that itself is a source of power draw, but one we can’t measure as easily with the shell on.

    • Jouni Tuomela

      What does the info in the product label say about the capacity, how many mAmps does it produce?
      Please use a lamp with less wattage, someone could calculate this from the time and the wattage.

      • ecatworld

        I do have a less powerful LED lamp which I’ll use for the next video.

      • Private Citizen

        There are some very inexpensive endoscopes on the web (some less than $20). Perhaps a local mechanic or home inspector might have one. Wouldn’t take much of a hole to insert an endoscope and get pics of the interior.

  • Frank Acland

    New short video above.

    • Mats002

      Frank, did you tell how many watt that LED thing need?

      • Frank Acland

        About 1.5 W

        • Mats002

          There you have it guys! Who is first to calculate the energy production (or harvesting, or drain)?

          • Ged

            2.5 minutes of charging for 1.5 seconds of light, or 2.25 Joules. So ~15 mW of charging power, if I did my math right. Note the times are just estimates from me counting during the vid and the vid’s timestamps.

            Edit: Light lasted about 1.5 not 2.5 seconds, so, fixed the numbers for that.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Didn’t it take 45 minutes of charge to get about 1 second of light?? I estimate 3.1 watts when lit based on the specs for a similar 28 LED system I saw on the internet.

            Anyway, why suffer with this guestimate of the power dissapation of the LED unit.

            Frank — please see my suggestion below in the long post sent about 5 hour ago: need two cheap multimeters from radioshack, 3 alligator clipped leads (they come in a bubble package), and some resistors graduated from 1 megohm to 100 ohm. If you don’t have another USB cable, buy one because your going to cut it in half to make the load test rig. I don’t think I forgot anything.

            Tomorrow after running the test, I suggest using a screwdriver to wedge under the back panel of the orbo to pry off the unit. It might crack the backing plate if it is glued in, but hopefully won’t ruin the electronics.

          • Ged

            I don’t have sound on, so maybe I misunderstood the new video? It lit up, ran out of power, didn’t light up for several more times till left sitting for a few minutes of video time, then lit up again. But again, no sound, so could have missed important narration.

          • Anon2012_2014

            The first time on Frank said he had left it for about 45 minutes. I did not time the light flash. Note that we could lookup the voltage thresholds for typical white LEDs of about that power to see where they should stop illuminating on the voltage discharge curve. Those LED units might also have a voltage inverter or regulator in them, although that would add cost. I see they cost from $4 to $7 on the internet, i.e. not a lot of parts or labor in them.

          • Ged

            Yeah, I did my calculations based on the second light up event at the end of the vid, assuming the first event drained the Ocube below the LED lamp’s threshold, and then it recharged back up enough by the second light up.

            It does seem fairly simple, but I would guess there must be some voltage control going on, since the array is an all or nothing light up. I did find this http://www.gizmology.net/LEDs.htm , which seems to suggest LEDs have some interesting behavior in a circuit. Maybe this can help, but my knowledge is very basic in this field.

          • dave

            They will likely contain a constant current regulator which will cost a few cents and likely drop about a volt. We also use other
            drive methods.

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks for your suggestion below, Anon. A very good idea. I am working on putting together that circuit.

          • Jouni Tuomela

            me late!

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Frank, would you test the motor of your new car at 16000 rpm? Wouldnโ€™t it be better to use a load of max. 0.4 W as specified?

          • Frank Acland

            Yes, you are right. I couldn’t find an off-the shelf USB device rated below 0.4, But someone is sending such a unit.

    • Ged

      Interesting. If you look at the LED lamp’s USB when it’s plugged in, both times when it lit up there is a blue glow along the USB port, and that glow remains a little less than for a s second or so after the lamp turns off. There’s no lag between the light and that glow when it first lights up, only after it turns off, so I don’t think it’s a reflection lag from framerates, but maybe.

      • Frank Acland

        No you’re right. Blue light comes on anytime something is operating

        • Ged

          Must be an “on” indicating LED. That itself will be drawing power too, but guess we’ll just have to accept its unmeasurable existence. Does suggest the LED lamp needs some threshold of voltage to turn on (makes sense, as it turns on an entire array at once), but some power is still flowing even once the array drains the Ocube below that on threshold.

          • Zephir

            /* that itself will be drawing power too */
            Well, not quite – the LED and whole the USB measuring stick could draw over thirty miliAmps of current, which is quite comparable with alleged output of the Orbo Cube powerpack (80 mA/5V).

          • Ged

            Oh, I mean the indicator light inside the Ocube that glows around the USB port when something is drawing power through the USB — that itself is a source of power draw, but one we can’t measure as easily with the shell on.

    • Jouni Tuomela

      What does the info in the product label say about the capacity, how many mAmps does it produce?
      Please use a lamp with less wattage, someone could calculate this from the time and the wattage.

      • Frank Acland

        I do have a less powerful LED lamp which I’ll use for the next video.

  • Annet de Graaf

    In this stage I would ask myself Frank” “Will it blend?”. After ten years of waiting for this moment you have received the wrong delivery, and now you nerdies (with all respect, I love nerdies) are waiting for the DaVinci code to be unraveled? And mr. Shaun McCarthy is on his way to Temptation Island with your money. Or psychiatric hospitalized for that matter. It is so cute Frank! also the new video. I will wait till you do a little free energy dance!

  • Annet de Graaf

    Ok why did you block my comment Frank, it was just an encouring comment.

    • Frank Acland

      It was not blocked, just in the moderation queue

      • Annet de Graaf

        Ok Frank! Thanks. I hope this adventure will turn out right for you. Cause I will be very happy with batteries which will never die. I will follow your interesting post.

  • passerby

    Capacitor, called it.

  • passerby

    Capacitor, called it.

  • Ged

    Given the draw rate of the LED lamp, if known, and the size of the capacitor, we can use the amount of rest time between plug-ins compared to how long the lamp stays lit, to estimate power production, I believe.

    (Edit: Saw the 1.5W reply below to the lamp draw). If so, can you do several different rest intervals and see how that affects LED lamp light time? From the above, it seems 2.5 or so minutes can equal ~2 seconds of lamp time.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Ged, I think like you. Just looked that up. The 28 LED lamps say they last 5 hours on 4 AA cells. Assume they are alkaline batteries that is 3.9 watt-hours per battery or average drain of 3.1 watts.

      Gadget seems to light for about 1 second after 45 minutes. That means it stores 3.1 joules in 45 minutes. That makes the average energy stored per second (i.e. continuous power)

      3.1/(45*60)=1.1 mW

      Until we get better data, that’s a back of the envelope.

      Seems to me to be an energy harvester.

      Note that the USB bus specifies 5 volts, and I would assume the LEDs light until they get to about 4 volts on the capacitor.

      • Ged

        Lighting until 4 V would also explain the lag in the “on” indicator LED within the Ocube.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Agreed.

    • ecatworld

      About 1.5 W for the lamp according to my meter

  • Ged

    Given the draw rate of the LED lamp, if known, and the size of the capacitor, we can use the amount of rest time between plug-ins compared to how long the lamp stays lit, to estimate power production, I believe.

    (Edit: Saw the 1.5W reply below to the lamp draw). If so, can you do several different rest intervals and see how that affects LED lamp light time? From the above, it seems 2.5 or so minutes can equal ~2 seconds of lamp time.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Ged, I think like you. Just looked that up. The 28 LED lamps say they last 5 hours on 4 AA cells. Assume they are alkaline batteries that is 3.9 watt-hours per battery or average drain of 3.1 watts.

      Gadget seems to light for about 1 second after 45 minutes. That means it stores 3.1 joules in 45 minutes. That makes the average energy stored per second (i.e. continuous power)

      3.1/(45*60)=1.1 mW

      Until we get better data, that’s a back of the envelope.

      Seems to me to be an energy harvester.

      Note that the USB bus specifies 5 volts, and I would assume the LEDs light until they get to about 4 volts on the capacitor.

      • Ged

        Lighting until 4 V would also explain the lag in the “on” indicator LED within the Ocube.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Agreed.

    • Frank Acland

      About 1.5 W for the lamp according to my meter

  • Zephir

    /* Yeah, itโ€™s not just the 5f cap, out tech itself has quite a bit of capacitance as well (a by product, not a design feature) . . when you get the back off the unit you will be able to measure the charge build up */

    Yep, it serves as another indicia for me, that the Orbo Cube is powered with supercapacitor in sort – i.e. the mixture of active carbon and electret wax (which you can also see everywhere around Steorn’s lab). There aren’t many possible systems, which could deliver such a capacity at given size. The important thing is, everyone of you could prepare it at home at the fraction of Steorn cost.

    Edit: But such a large capacity makes the noisy signal (which is observable at some Steorn videos as a thick line on oscilloscope) rather strange. You may expect very high currents running there.

    http://freeenergy.news/steorn-webinar-ii-orbo-products-full-transcript/

    http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/images/webinar2_3.jpg
    http://freeenergy.news/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/steorn-experiment-battery-1.jpg

    • Ged

      So it should be drawing power from ambient forces to charge the capacitor (temperature or electromagnetic), and the capacitor itself is the device? Would give good testing ideas like a faraday cage or putting it next to a wifi router to see if that impacts charge time, or in the fridge or near a heater.

      • Zephir

        I don’t think that the construction of device (massive aluminum shield) is intended to draw some EM energy from outside.

        • Ged

          Where does it get power from, though? That’s what I really want to know, as it does seem to be trickle charging at all times (so far).

          • Zephir

            Well, I offered some ideas already here, you may find them at reddit. It looks like the connection of electret capacitor microphone and supercapacitor technologies for me. You may think about it like about electret microphone on steroids. Normal electret microphone has a miniature capacity, so it provides a miniature output for ambient thermal noise. But the supercapacitor has tremendous capacity due to large internal surface and its power output therefore is greatly magnified.

            https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/44wna1/first_orbo_cube_deliveries_from_steorn_confirmed/cztfipv

            Note also apparent and very strong piezoelectricity of Steorn’s demonstration power unit. If this device has such a large capacity (in the range of few Farads) it just means, it could also serve as an effective transducer of mechanical energy into a electric power (which would be interesting feature for solid state dynamos, even if this material wouldn’t generate any free energy at all).

          • Ged

            Based on your post there, testing it at different temperatures would be a good way to evaluate that thermo-electric hypothesis?

          • Zephir

            Maybe, but its mechanism and therefore theory may differ significantly from rather schematic models of thermoelectricity inside the semiconductors. This system involves organic chemicals (wax) and ionic conductivity/double layer at the phase interface, which also have strong temperature dependence by itself. We are dealing with complex and strongly unorthodox system here. And you shouldn’t probably melt the wax used, so its temperature range would be rather limited.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Best case: VLF (10 hz) “RF” Schumann resonance originating from lightning or solar wind passed to Orbo largely as magnetic field fluctuations.

            Boring case: broad band energy harvester taking RF from 50 Hz to 10 Ghz, essentially all waste energy we send out for radio or power line radiation. We don’t get anything for free in this case, we are just making our transmission of energy a bit more efficient by recapturing some waste.

          • Ged

            With that hypothesis, just need some good ol’ fashion electrical isolation to test it.

          • Zephir

            This is completely out of physical reality The Schumann resonance electric field amplitude (~300 microvolts per meter) is much smaller than the static fair-weather electric field … Similarly, the amplitude of the Schumann resonance magnetic field (~1 picotesla) is many orders of magnitude smaller than the Earth’s magnetic field (~30โ€“50 microteslas).

          • Anon2012_2014

            I got similar numbers for expected power when I computed the magnetic field fluctuations, but who knows until we see the actual power output of this device.

            I think the most likely hypothesis Orbo it is a simple RF energy harvester using anthropomorphic RF leakage to rectify a bit of power. I believe if that is the case we will see power outputs similar to other energy harvesters around 2 mW, which is only useful for running very low powered devices. I hope I am wrong.

          • Zephir

            As I already wrote, whole the construction of Orbo device inside the massive aluminum shield look improbable for to be intended as a RF energy harvester. Such an units also exist, but they’re equipped with large flat antennae and similar stuffs.

    • Anon2012_2014

      So this is just a large supercapacitor with a large resistor in series charging a small supercapacitor? Can one make a supercapacitor with just active carbon and electret with volumetric energy density better than batteries?

      Or is Orbo harvesting energy using some other means (i.e. acoustic vibrations)?

      If you could point me to your old work detailing your hypothesis.

      Thanks,

      • Zephir

        The optimistic theory is, the OCube works as a giant piezoelectret microphone with capacity radically increased with high surface of carbon electrodes and it converts the thermal fluctuations of its material into an electricity, while cooling itself.

        The pessimistic scenario is, it works like the compact solid state fuel cell with aerial depolarization, which is generating electricity by slow oxidation of carbon, wax or both and reduction of aerial humidity. The slowness of this depolarization and high internal resistance of the batter would mimic the perceived high capacitance of powercell (note that ideal battery is behaving like the capacitor of infinite capacity)

      • Ged

        If Steorn has a supercapacitor with energy density higher than conventional batteries, that itself would be enormous news.

        • Anon2012_2014

          I don’t think so (that it is supercaps). First thing is it is REALLY heavy. It goes thunk every time it is put down on the table. Sounds battery like, or worse, like some kind of magnetic induction loop wrapped around a heavy ferrite.

          Can’t wait till Frank does the stage one test and then pries the back cover off.

          I tell you, I am afraid it is simply potted in epoxy. Would be disappointing as Steorn said it wasn’t glued down.

          • Ged

            That would be problematic indeed. It is an aluminum casing its been said, so that would contribute to the thunk. Hopefully Frank will weigh it soon and give us a solid number as that would help us constrain what it could be in the absence of breaking it open.

          • Frank Acland

            I know it’s over 1 kilo, since it was to heavy for my digital scales. Will try and get it weighed tomorrow.

  • Omega Z

    All cells are not equal. Some hold more charge then others.

    A 12 volt car battery(6-2v cells) can crank down and having set a while can crank some more. The battery is not recharging itself. It is merely an energy balancing between cells after setting a while. To a much smaller degree, you can witness this within a single cell.

    Capacitors can also retain some residual energy when drained, but unless it’s defective, this is pretty much a non event. Tho I can repeat a few stories I’ve heard & an impossible to happen experiance of a volt meter we never found all the components to afterwards, this is not something you would build into a product.

    If this was shipped without a battery, this is a stroke of good luck.
    So, Frank having drained the O-cube and later being able to use it again would be a strong indicator that it is generating energy. There would be no residual energy capable of doing this in a good capacitor.

    The lack of a battery will have eliminated several months of experiments, calculations & guess work. (F9) to confirm is there a battery or is there not. Frank will quickly be able to move on to measure the energy being produced and eliminate possibilities of it’s source with a Faraday cage etc…

    • Ged

      Thankfully, knowing if there’s a battery or not is a simple matter of weighing the device against the one that is supposed to have a battery. That or testing for a static voltage, as batteries have. So far it is acting like a capacitor though. Way more testing needed for sure.

      • Omega Z

        Having watched the update #2 video, I know why the O-cube cost $1200.
        $100 dollars for the O-cube-, $1100 for the packaging. ๐Ÿ™‚

        • Ged

          Gotta admit, that is some snazzy packaging.

          • Annet de Graaf

            And I really dislike the package design and their marketing. Considering 15 years of development; they could have branded their product much fancier over the years.

          • Ged

            I dunno, it has a real “Day of the Dead” look to it.

          • Annet de Graaf

            LOLLL haha and also the music they use in the video’s. It’s so Gothic.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Year of the Monkey face on the device. We get energy out of the mouth.

      • Mats002

        It’s all about time I would say. Each cycle of drain will add to the total energy out and at some point the volume of the ‘thing’ is just not large enough to explain the capacity. How many cycles (and time) are we talking about here? You won the contest by the way, thanks Ged!

        • Ged

          I would say we’d need at least enough accumulated power draw to rule out a lithium battery of largest size possible to fit in that device’s weight. Based on laptop batteries, I would gestimate approximately 32 Watt-hours is the max you could stuff in that shell (would be fairly hefty). I bet someone else will be able to make a far better estimate of what needs to be surpassed to unequivocally state it is harvesting/making energy.

          • Mats002

            Agree and if your 25mW per ~3 minutes is correct we have to wait (at least) 32 * 40 * 20 minutes for that answer.

          • Ged

            So… about 1 month ;). Well, definitely there are easier ways to look at this then.

  • Omega Z

    All cells are not equal. Some hold more charge then others.

    A 12 volt car battery(6-2v cells) can crank down and having set a while can crank some more. The battery is not recharging itself. It is merely an energy balancing between cells after setting a while. To a much smaller degree, you can witness this within a single cell.

    Capacitors can also retain some residual energy when drained, but unless it’s defective, this is pretty much a non event. Tho I can repeat a few stories I’ve heard & an impossible to happen experiance of a volt meter we never found all the components to afterwards, this is not something you would build into a product.

    If this was shipped without a battery, this is a stroke of good luck.
    So, Frank having drained the O-cube and later being able to use it again would be a strong indicator that it is generating energy. There would be no residual energy capable of doing this in a good capacitor.

    The lack of a battery will have eliminated several months of experiments, calculations & guess work. (F9) to confirm is there a battery or is there not. Frank will quickly be able to move on to measure the energy being produced and eliminate possibilities of it’s source with a Faraday cage etc…

    • Ged

      Thankfully, knowing if there’s a battery or not is a simple matter of weighing the device against the one that is supposed to have a battery. That or testing for a static voltage, as batteries have. So far it is acting like a capacitor though. Way more testing needed for sure.

      • Omega Z

        Having watched the update #2 video, I know why the O-cube cost $1200.
        $100 dollars for the O-cube-, $1100 for the packaging. ๐Ÿ™‚

        • Ged

          Gotta admit, that is some snazzy packaging.

          • Annet de Graaf

            And I really dislike the package design and their marketing. Considering 15 years of development; they could have branded their product much fancier over the years.

          • Ged

            I dunno, it has a real “Day of the Dead” look to it.

          • Annet de Graaf

            LOLLL haha and also the music they use in the video’s. It’s so Gothic.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Year of the Monkey face on the device. We get energy out of the mouth.

      • Mats002

        It’s all about time I would say. Each cycle of drain will add to the total energy out and at some point the volume of the ‘thing’ is just not large enough to explain the capacity. How many cycles (and time) are we talking about here? You won the contest by the way, thanks Ged!

        • Ged

          I would say we’d need at least enough accumulated power draw to rule out a lithium battery of largest size possible to fit in that device’s weight. Based on laptop batteries, I would gestimate approximately 32 Watt-hours is the max you could stuff in that shell (would be fairly hefty). I bet someone else will be able to make a far better estimate of what needs to be surpassed to unequivocally state it is harvesting/making energy (based on total draw criteria, but there are other criteria that would also prove it, as Anon has pointed out for testing).

          • Mats002

            Agree and if your 25mW per ~3 minutes is correct we have to wait (at least) 32 * 40 * 20 minutes for that answer.

          • Ged

            So… about 1 month ;). Well, definitely there are easier ways to look at this then.

  • ScienceFan

    I just had a thought… What if the Orbo uses the Casimir effect with piezo-electrics attached at the back ends or edges of the parallel plates that have Casimir force pressing them together? That could in theory create tiny amounts of trickle-charge, right?

  • Mats002

    Before we get carried away: it is possible this ‘thing’ is packed with ultracaps and that the energy stored is fed into an intermediate cap that is recharged from the cap bank. It would behave like we see now. I like to rule out this scenario first. Sorry to rain on the parade but might be joining in later on ๐Ÿ™‚

    • Ged

      Seems like Frank will have to keep a running tally of all energy drawn from it!

    • Omega Z

      If Frank gets it open, many questions will quickly be answered.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Mats,

      Even if it is packed with lets say 10K farads of ultracapacitors at 5 volts, that is only a limited amount energy storage ( .5*10000*25 = 125 kJ). That is about 2x the 56K joules of energy in the 4 AA batteries that the 28 LED light runs on for 5 hours. The Wikipedia entry on energy density says that alkaline batteries have a volumetric energy density of 1.3 MJ/L compared with super capacitors at 0.06 MJ/L, i.e. batteries are 20x denser. So they would be better off storing the energy in batteries for this trick, and it would still run out after a period of time if used at the same rate.

      Of course, if we are going to limit the discharge rate to 1 mW average, packing it with 12 AA batteries or lithium ion volume equivalent would result in 168 kJ of energy and would last an astounding 168000/.001 seconds or 5 years. The conclusion is that batteries at low powers (1 mW) will last a really long time.

      In real life, smartphones need 2.7 Ah at 4 volts for about 2 days before draining = 225 mW on average, so even jamming 12 AA equivalent batteries or supercaps, a real cellphone only would last for 8 days.

      If this device produces more than 20 mW continuous from energy harvesting outside of human created radio transmissions, its great. If it produces 2 mW which is what I expect, it has limited usefulness.

  • Zephir

    One rather scathing explanation of why Steorn supplied his unit so early just to Acland – just for feedback from the opposite side of Moon:

    http://www.moletrap.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4652&page=131

    …”Once again, Shaun chose his victim perfectly. Acland is completely incompetent. Not only he is chaotic and jumping from one test to another one, without logging all details of what he does; not only he has spent all day today trying to find out how to open the box (without success); but he is also completely incapable of figuring our how much power the Orbo pack should deliver and how to test it. He does not even need to be a paid shill of Steorn; with such incompetence he will not manage to find out anything conclusive anyway”….

    • Guy Mann

      Jesus. The guy just got the thing. People need to relax and give the man time.

      • Zephir

        Of course, just the moderation of this thread is full time job – but this critique also has its rational core. What we actually know about first day of testing? I didn’t invest into this unit not a penny, but the people who did contribute to it would expect a better output in future.

        • mike wolf

          Investors or not, you guys with some knowledge should get in a chat room or skype and work it out. I guarantee you, if you guys get together, you could work out the best way for frank to work it on his own, because unless you guys can get in the same room, he is on his own. This board is absolutely swamped with everybody’s ideas, probably has him scatter brained. You guys should organize with him in a live conversation.

          • Zephir

            If I would get the money for the public test of unit, I’d develop some full time test connected with Arduino, web camera and online logging of data. This is standard technology today already, which I’m experienced with. I already ordered Orbo Phone, which is a bit cheaper and I’m prepared to organize such a test with its powerpack, once it arrives.

            I can appreciate the Frank patient journalism and very good discussion forum, but the preparation of such a self-running test just needs some experience or time, which has been wasted during waiting for units. I also presume, Frank maintains his own job for living and he has no spare time to learn all these stuffs just for one single test. Someone educated in electronics should help him with it at place.

    • Ged

      Time will tell, literally though. The more it’s used, the more we know; and more Ocubes are going out to more people who will be testing them. Besides, to say all that on the first day of testing about someone who isn’t a professional tester is completely uncalled for and ignorant. That person is trying to turn into a pointless troll at this rate, with no helpful testing comments.

      • Zephir

        Yes, but the total power load of the unit should be somehow logged. Once it will get finally depleted we wouldn’t even know, how big charge it actually provided.

        • Ged

          But that’s irrelevant to the claims being tested. If it ever gets fully depleted, if it ever stops lighting up LEDs, then Steorn’s claims are disproven. There is no need for logging power load for testing that claim.

          • Zephir

            The skeptics will not hear you, until you provide them such a cheap arguments. Even if this tests will be sucessfull, they will tell you, you probably haven’t loaded the unit enough and you cannot prove the opposite.

          • Ged

            Irrelevant. That is not a skeptic, but someone who is ignorant to the hypothesis being tested. The question is simple: will it continue to produce energy over time spans long exceeding traditional energy storage? If it keeps recharging for as long as the electronics are intact, then the null hypothesis is rejected. So very simple, cut and dry, there is no wiggle room.

            Now, there are other, and faster ways to test it, which would require logging power draw. And you know what? That logging of power draw and those methods can be started at Any time. So again, arguments from ignorance not validity are all these “skeptics” have to say.

          • Zephir

            The problem arises at the moment, once you cannot restore the power of unit after first switching on (which already did happen IMO). From this moment the performance of the unit is dependent on its history, which we already lost.

            Anyway, which resume I’m supposed to write at my blog about this story after first day of testing? I’m still missing some protocol from testing at single place, which I could copy and paste from here and do my own calculations. How long the LED has been connected, which voltage and current passed? When it died out, has the power been restored? How long, after which time? Voltage, current again.

            Enough of usual twaddling, get a real data for a while.

          • Ged

            The video provides one data point, but at this point no conclusions about the hypothesis can be drawn, yet. The important points to write up about are 1) the device can light up 1.5 W LEDs without its battery installed, 2) after it runs out of charge and the LEDs deactive, the device will recharge and light back up those LEDs if left to sit, and 3) LED light time seems proportional to how long the device is allowed to sit. The conclusion then is that this shows that the battery is not necessary to the function of the device, and that it is recharging from some source slowly (1.1 mW to 15 mW continuous, depending on the calculation at the moment).

            And then conclusion point 4) more testing is needed and more testing is on going.

            If the device fails without any obvious failure of the electronics, then Steorn’s claims are rejected and the null hypothesis that the device isn’t anything different from any other battery/capacitor is accepted. Very easy to understand and evaluate. Time will, again, tell.

          • artefact

            Imho the voltage of a capacitor falls quickly and LEDs need to be over a certain voltage to shine so it is not easy to calculate the generated energy.

          • Zephir

            This is another problem – the exponential characteristic of LED makes it terrible power load for testing. The camera has brightness compensation, so you cannot actually get anything reliable from video.

          • Ged

            Time on is all that’s needed. Again, all that’s necessary to disprove the device is if it stops charging at any point.

          • Ged

            If we get Anon’s suggestions rolling with resistors, this’ll be a breeze ;). Frank’s working towards that end, but even so, LEDs still take energy, and we can use that to measure the amount of energy replenished between times the LED’s are used, and thus an estimate of recharging power. Yeah, the error bars will be large, but they are less than INFINITE as having no date is.

          • mike wolf

            Amen G.

          • Blue Energy

            Yeah. Screw that guy. For whatever reason, Frank has been entrusted with being the first. Under the worst of circumstances I trust Frank to be a fair arbiter. You won’t catch him with his thumb on one side of the scale or the other and he won’t be influenced to allow others to do so. So far what he has already accomplished in one day has lessened the amount of unknown. And if he has questions as to how to proceed next – there are people here who are willing to give advice. I don’t know if there is a perfect choice for first – but Frank is a good one, if you ask me.

          • Ged

            You know, all this “first” stuff is hilarious, since the Post service is the one who “chose” Frank, not Steorn!

            Anyways, Frank has made no proclamations that it works or doesn’t. He’s just been trying to test it and having us watch. There is nothing to be grumbling about as he’s made no claims. He is getting more equipment from others, and better protocols too. He’s doing a great job for one who suddenly caught a fish and now has to figure out what to do with it. People are just being instant gratification monsters.

        • mike wolf

          hey the unit came incomplete. I think everything you said is great for the completed unit. Let Frank play with this one, no telling what you can learn. I suggest the people who helped Frank obtain this should get together and discuss a plan of attack for the completed unit. No harm done so far.

          • Zephir

            /*hey the unit came incomplete*/

            It could be also part of Steorn plan. We didn’t get the complete/regular unit, hence we cannot do production tests with it. Whatever Frank will find about it could be doubted with Steorn later from this perspective.

          • Ged

            I call bull on that. That requires complete ignorance, again, of what is -being- tested. If the Ocube fails to keep charging after a time, it’s a failed product. The battery is just a buffer, irrelevant to the -generation of energy-, that is, the recharging. So having one or not will not change the results of a base test of the technology as we are afforded extra easily here by having no battery in the device.

          • Zephir

            If the Ocube fails to keep charging after a time, it’s a failed product.

            The question is, how long such a time should be. From consumer perspective two years may be enough, but from scientific perspective you may want to wait much longer for to exclude all classical (i.e. chemical) sources of energy.

          • Zephir

            /* It is likely that the Orbo charger has voltage regulation and current limiting circuits between the battery / capacitor */

            IMO (and according one of Steorn videos) it uses classical step-up buck from China which has such a circuits already built in – but it has not meaning to discuss it here with people, who apparently have no idea, how such device could be constructed.

          • Ged

            Arrogant. We have people who work with supercapacitors for a living commenting here.

          • Zephir

            Irrelevant. We also have people here, who speculate about quite apparent things.

          • Ged

            But that is immaterial. You lack in things and I lack in things and others lack in other parts of knowledge, that should never hold you back from speaking factually, unless you have nothing to add and are just bluster to put down others. That is not how a scientific mind speaks, thus your entire post was useless arrogance. You know nothing about the people here who haven’t commented, and only the smallest window into those who have. Do not presume so much, as it shows your lack, not what you possess.

          • Zephir

            /* you know nothing about the people here who haven’t commented, and only the smallest window into those who have.*/

            Oh come on. If someone proposes, that the Orbo charger has a voltage regulation, it’s more than enough for to classify him as a laymen in this matter, despite he is still perfectly right – or just because of it. It’s like when someone proposes with serious face, that some PC probably has a CPU – after then it’s evident, it has no meaning to discuss the subtleties of CPU programming just with him.

            He would be indeed right but still rendered incompetent.

          • Ged

            Now that is just ridiculously silly. You are smarter than that.

            Stating the obvious does not, in any way, render someone incompetent, especially given any wide demographics in viewership. But categorically claiming such, is utterly intractable to actual discussion. Rather, it’s the tactic of someone hiding their ignorance, by claiming “others can’t understand” or are “laymen” and thus unable to understand whatever “esoteric” fact you’re trying to hide. That just makes you look arrogantly boastful in the most empty of ways while providing nothing useful.

          • Zephir

            Well, as I can see, while your answer is still relevant, you’re also belonging into group of people, which has no meaning to further dispute with FOR ME.

            You know, about 60% of USA citizens still believe in creation – so it has no meaning to convince them with some arguments, if they didn’t managed to understand it during last two hundred years. They simply have their version of truth, which they insist on.

          • Ged

            Yeah, you seem to have your own version, indeed.

            Playing dismissively coy with the original commenter who made a perfectly reasonable comment, calling that commenter incompetent through a roundabout way, and then continuing to pretend as if somehow you are justified in that unacceptable behavior–that is quite an absurd view of “truth”. You probably had nothing of value to add in the first place and just had to cover yourself.

            Bringing up creationism does not help your case, but the opposite, as sound information must always be given out when and where it is needed or else people can’t learn, or be persuaded to better supported positions. Nor does anything have intrinsic meaning for “all people”, so that is a logical fallacy to try that use that as a support of your comment.

            I’m being hard on you for one reason–you also needlessly posted that irrational, “scathing” quote against Frank from “someone else”. You are presenting a coy pattern of behavior that disruptively no good, yet have made fine comments elsewhere. So get your act in gear, and stick to your guns instead of trying to belittle others here and this matter will be closed.

          • Zephir

            /* You probably had nothing of value to add in the first place and just had to cover yourself */

            Or I’m lazy and unwilling to spend the time for explanation of stuffs to people, the proposals of whose apparently point to much lower level. It’s my equivalent of RTFM first. Believe it or not, sometimes the RTFM is the best advice, which you can get in a given moment.

          • ecatworld

            It’s about 5mm thick

          • Gryphon

            Another option might be to carefully drill a hole (or several) through the side just above where the base is and see if you can lever it open by applying some force on the base from the inside. Perhaps you could fit a reasonably sturdy L shaped tool such as an allen key (is it called a hex key in the US?) through the hole to provide the leverage.

          • ecatworld

            Thanks, it might come down to that.

          • damn_right _man

            Suction still not tried?

          • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

            just take a hacksaw and cut about 4mm from the base all around the outside.

          • Zephir

            Be prepared that metallic dust and sawdust could destroy the electronic inside unit at the case of shortcut or it may adversely affect the performance of unit later,

          • Ged

            Exactly, but that is simple enough to define and thus test. ~4 eV is the max for chemical. Knowing the Ocube’s weight, we know exactly how much energy it could store at theoretical (impossible) max (and some weight is the casing, USB control electronics, and other circuitry). It’ll be very easy to define its max possible energy density if Frank can get it open past the glue (too risky to do yet, as a good chance it could be destroyed).

          • LilyLover

            Frank, I’m pretty sure that the encasing is made in a manner similar to that of an old video-game-cartridge. It would be non-continuous zip-lockish pattern. Think more like plastic nokia-mobile-phones of the bygone era that had non-sliding backs.
            So, use small flathead on the large radius end to lift-slide a tiny part out or up or combination. If that doesn’t work try with the small radius end and then try with sides.
            I’m somewhat sure that they must have avoided any modern glues, so keep trying with the camel under the tent approach.
            Good luck.

          • mike wolf

            If they didn’t send him another one, I would agree with you.

    • Omega Z

      This is my view on what is being posted on moletrap.

      You lost the race,

      But, We haven’t started the race yet,

      That fact is irrelevant

      It appears they had come to a conclusion before the O-cube was ever delivered.

  • Zephir

    One rather scathing explanation of why Steorn supplied his unit so early just to Acland – just for feedback from the opposite side of Moon:

    http://www.moletrap.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4652&page=131

    …”Once again, Shaun chose his victim perfectly. Acland is completely incompetent. Not only he is chaotic and jumping from one test to another one, without logging all details of what he does; not only he has spent all day today trying to find out how to open the box (without success); but he is also completely incapable of figuring our how much power the Orbo pack should deliver and how to test it. He does not even need to be a paid shill of Steorn; with such incompetence he will not manage to find out anything conclusive anyway”….

    • Ged

      Time will tell, literally though. The more it’s used, the more we know; and more Ocubes are going out to more people who will be testing them. Besides, to say all that on the first day of testing about someone who isn’t a professional tester is completely uncalled for and ignorant. That person is trying to turn into a pointless troll at this rate, with no helpful testing comments.

      • Zephir

        Yes, but the total power load of the unit should be somehow logged. Once it will get finally depleted we wouldn’t even know, how big charge it actually provided.

        • Ged

          But that’s irrelevant to the claims being tested. If it ever gets fully depleted, if it ever stops lighting up LEDs, then Steorn’s claims are disproven. There is no need for logging power load for testing that claim.

          • Zephir

            The skeptics will not hear you, until you provide them such a cheap arguments. Even if this tests will be sucessfull, they will tell you, you probably haven’t loaded the unit enough and you cannot prove the opposite.

          • Ged

            Irrelevant. That is not a skeptic, but someone who is ignorant to the hypothesis being tested. The question is simple: will it continue to produce energy over time spans long exceeding traditional energy storage? If it keeps recharging for as long as the electronics are intact, then the null hypothesis is rejected. So very simple, cut and dry, there is no wiggle room.

            Now, there are other, and faster ways to test it, which would require logging power draw. And you know what? That logging of power draw and those methods can be started at Any time. So again, arguments from ignorance not validity are all these “skeptics” have to say.

          • Zephir

            The problem arises at the moment, once you cannot restore the power of unit after first switching on (which already did happen IMO). From this moment the performance of the unit is dependent on its history, which we already lost.

            Anyway, which resume I’m supposed to write at my blog about this story after first day of testing? I’m still missing some protocol from testing at single place, which I could copy and paste from here and do my own calculations. How long the LED has been connected, which voltage and current passed? When it died out, has the power been restored? How long, after which time? Voltage, current again.

            Enough of usual twaddling and videotaping, get a real data for a while.
            BTW why all free energy supporters are so obsessed with their shaky blurry videos? I don’t get it…

          • Ged

            The video provides one data point, but at this point no conclusions about the hypothesis can be drawn, yet. The important points to write up about are 1) the device can light up 1.5 W LEDs without its battery installed, 2) after it runs out of charge and the LEDs deactive, the device will recharge and light back up those LEDs if left to sit, and 3) LED light time seems proportional to how long the device is allowed to sit. The conclusion then is that this shows that the battery is not necessary to the function of the device, and that it is recharging from some source slowly (1.1 mW to 15 mW continuous, depending on the calculation at the moment).

            And then conclusion point 4) more testing is needed and more testing is on going.

            If the device fails without any obvious failure of the electronics, then Steorn’s claims are rejected and the null hypothesis that the device isn’t anything different from any other battery/capacitor is accepted. Very easy to understand and evaluate. Time will, again, tell.

          • artefact

            Imho the voltage of a capacitor falls quickly and LEDs need to be over a certain voltage to shine so it is not easy to calculate the generated energy.

          • Zephir

            This is another problem – the exponential characteristic of LED makes it terrible power load for testing. The camera has brightness compensation, so you cannot actually get anything reliable from video.

          • Ged

            Time on is all that’s needed. Again, all that’s necessary to disprove the device is if it stops charging at any point.

          • Ged

            If we get Anon’s suggestions rolling with resistors, this’ll be a breeze ;). Frank’s working towards that end, but even so, LEDs still take energy, and we can use that to measure the amount of energy replenished between times the LED’s are used, and thus an estimate of recharging power. Yeah, the error bars will be large, but they are less than INFINITE as having no date is.

          • mike wolf

            Amen G.

          • Blue Energy

            Yeah. Screw that guy. For whatever reason, Frank has been entrusted with being the first. Under the worst of circumstances I trust Frank to be a fair arbiter. You won’t catch him with his thumb on one side of the scale or the other and he won’t be influenced to allow others to do so. So far what he has already accomplished in one day has lessened the amount of unknown. And if he has questions as to how to proceed next – there are people here who are willing to give advice. I don’t know if there is a perfect choice for first – but Frank is a good one, if you ask me.

          • Ged

            You know, all this “first” stuff is hilarious, since the Post service is the one who “chose” Frank, not Steorn!

            Anyways, Frank has made no proclamations that it works or doesn’t. He’s just been trying to test it and having us watch. There is nothing to be grumbling about as he’s made no claims. He is getting more equipment from others, and better protocols too. He’s doing a great job for one who suddenly caught a fish and now has to figure out what to do with it. People are just being instant gratification monsters.

          • Blue Energy

            Well… Frank got his yesterday. Are there any reports of some arriving today? It would be peculiar if a hundred O-Cubes were shipped out at once but only one was delivered in the US (to the midwest, no less) within a two day span. I think it’s still possible that Frank was chosen. Another day or so should settle it.

          • mike wolf

            Yea, good point. What Frank is doing is more than we get anywhere else. There should be funding to have a group of specialists, but we know the environment that alternative energies have to face. We are left with nothing but taking the risk and fund ourselves which is a pity. Anyone who criticizes him should put up or shut up. All Frank is obligated to do is whatever the hell he wants with it. I appreciate him doing something. His motivation? the world getting better. What more do we have a right to demand from him?

          • Zephir

            Well, there is thin and perspective dependent boundary between void critique and constructive feedback. I hope, Franck will select the best from this thread for his further advancement with ORBO tests.

          • Frank Acland

            Sure, Zephir.

            I’ve had the unit in my possession for about 24 hours now, and as you know it’s not the kind of Ocube anyone was expected to be shipped, so I’m having to try and adjust to this capacitor-Ocube, and there have been lots of interesting and useful comments here with ideas to try. I think we will have time to try a number of different things, and am making preparations for some already.

          • Ged

            Critique/criticism/constructive feedback all require one thing: that an improvement suggestion/method/details are provided as an alternative. Being a skeptic also demands that one provide an alternative hypothesis or method. Just complaining as the quote you posted is simply the same as replacing the rational brain with an impatient, petulant child. Because it is useless impatience. Testing results come with time, improvements come with time, and this device itself is completely dependent on time. So enough of this worthlessness, such a person as you quoted saying such derision after only a few hours of fiddling with a new test subject demands our denunciation till they mend their foolishness.

        • mike wolf

          hey the unit came incomplete. I think everything you said is great for the completed unit. Let Frank play with this one, no telling what you can learn. I suggest the people who helped Frank obtain this should get together and discuss a plan of attack for the completed unit. No harm done so far.

          • Zephir

            /*hey the unit came incomplete*/

            It could be also part of Steorn plan. We didn’t get the complete/regular unit, hence we cannot do production tests with it. Whatever Frank will find about it could be doubted with Steorn later from this perspective.

          • Ged

            I call bull on that. That requires complete ignorance, again, of what is -being- tested. If the Ocube fails to keep charging after a time, it’s a failed product. The battery is just a buffer, irrelevant to the -generation of energy-, that is, the recharging. So having one or not will not change the results of a base test of the technology as we are afforded extra easily here by having no battery in the device.

          • Zephir

            If the Ocube fails to keep charging after a time, it’s a failed product.

            The question is, how long such a time should be. From consumer perspective two years may be enough, but from scientific perspective you may want to wait much longer for to exclude all classical (i.e. chemical) sources of energy.

          • Ged

            Exactly, but that is simple enough to define and thus test. ~4 eV is the max for chemical. Knowing the Ocube’s weight, we know exactly how much energy it could store at theoretical (impossible) max (and some weight is the casing, USB control electronics, and other circuitry). It’ll be very easy to define its max possible energy density if Frank can get it open past the glue (too risky to do yet, as a good chance it could be destroyed).

          • mike wolf

            If they didn’t send him another one, I would agree with you.

    • Matt

      Luckily here are some people who appear to be qualified giving suggestions that Frank Acland is reading. I have to admit that I am also a bit baffled that some screws seem to be such a high hurdle, but ok, not everybody is a handyman.

    • Omega Z

      This is my view on what is being posted on moletrap.

      You lost the race,

      But, We haven’t started the race yet,

      That fact is irrelevant

      It appears they had come to a conclusion before the O-cube was ever delivered.

  • DanG7

    It is likely that the Orbo charger has voltage regulation and current limiting circuits between the battery / capacitor and the USB power output. It is likely that the unloaded voltage of the orbo generator is low enough to prevent overcharging the battery, if not, additional circuits may be required to prevent it.
    Assuming some or all of these circuits exist then how an orbo charger without a battery will behave is a good question. It could be that not all of the power generated is efficiently transferred to the output pins when the capacitor is discharged below a normal operating voltage. With these possibilities in mind, short of opening the device up, I agree that placing a 100 ohm resistor (1/2 watt) across the power pins of the USB cable and monitoring and recording the voltage across the resistor over a period of perhaps an hour would, as has been already suggested, be a good first step. It is not necessary to monitor the current or power directly as they can computed using ohms law I = V/R and P = V^2/R. Data displayed by a DC volt meter could be taken every 30 seconds, entered into a spreadsheet which calculates current and power.

    • Zephir

      /* It is likely that the Orbo charger has voltage regulation and current limiting circuits between the battery / capacitor */

      IMO (and according one of Steorn videos) it uses classical step-up buck from China which has such a circuits already built in – but it has not meaning to discuss it here with people, who apparently have no idea, how such device could be constructed.

      • Ged

        Arrogant. We have people who work with supercapacitors for a living commenting here.

        • Zephir

          Irrelevant. We also have people here, who speculate about quite apparent things.

          • Ged

            But that is immaterial. You lack in things and I lack in things and others lack in other parts of knowledge, that should never hold you back from speaking factually, unless you have nothing to add and are just bluster to put down others. That is not how a scientific mind speaks, thus your entire post was useless arrogance. You know nothing about the people here who haven’t commented, and only the smallest window into those who have. Do not presume so much, as it shows your lack, not what you possess.

          • Zephir

            /* you know nothing about the people here who haven’t commented, and only the smallest window into those who have.*/

            Oh come on. If someone proposes, that the Orbo charger has a voltage regulation, it’s more than enough for to classify him as a laymen in this matter, despite he is still perfectly right – or just because of it. It’s like when someone proposes with serious face, that some PC probably has a CPU – after then it’s evident, it has no meaning to discuss the subtleties of CPU programming just with him.

            He would be indeed right but still rendered incompetent.

          • Ged

            Now that is just ridiculously silly. You are smarter than that.

            Stating the obvious does not, in any way, render someone incompetent, especially given any wide demographics in viewership. But categorically claiming such, is utterly intractable to actual discussion. Rather, it’s the tactic of someone hiding their ignorance, by claiming “others can’t understand” or are “laymen” and thus unable to understand whatever “esoteric” fact you’re trying to hide. That just makes you look arrogantly boastful in the most empty of ways while providing nothing useful.

          • Zephir

            Well, as I can see, while your answer is still relevant, you’re also belonging into group of people, which has no meaning to further dispute with FOR ME. You’re probably living in illusion, that the discussion has some intrinsically meaning for all people. Well, it hasn’t.

            You know, about 60% of USA citizens still believe in creation – so it has no meaning to convince them with some arguments, if they didn’t manage to understand it during last two hundred years. They simply have their version of truth, which they insist on – well, and I’ve my own one.

          • Ged

            Yeah, you seem to have your own version, indeed.

            Playing dismissively coy with the original commenter who made a perfectly reasonable comment, calling that commenter incompetent through a roundabout way, and then continuing to pretend as if somehow you are justified in that unacceptable behavior–that is quite an absurd view of “truth”. You probably had nothing of value to add in the first place and just had to cover yourself.

            Bringing up creationism does not help your case, but the opposite, as sound information must always be given out when and where it is needed or else people can’t learn, or be persuaded to better supported positions. Nor does anything have intrinsic meaning for “all people”, so that is a logical fallacy to try that use that as a support of your comment.

            I’m being hard on you for one reason–you also needlessly posted that irrational, “scathing” quote against Frank from “someone else”. You are presenting a coy pattern of behavior that disruptively no good, yet have made fine comments elsewhere. So get your act in gear, and stick to your guns instead of trying to belittle others here and this matter will be closed.

          • Zephir

            /* You probably had nothing of value to add in the first place and just had to cover yourself */

            Or I’m lazy and unwilling to spend the time for explanation of stuffs to people, the proposals of whose apparently point to much lower level. It’s my equivalent of RTFM first. Believe it or not, sometimes the RTFM is the best advice, which you can get in a given moment.

  • optiongeek

    The tests should really be run in a Faraday cage. There are known products already on the market that can harness stray ambient EM power (from, say, wifi routers) and use that to charge remote sensors, etc. Undoubtedly that’s the mysterious effect being deployed here, if one is detected at all.

  • Jamie Sibley

    The LED was turned off at 1:09, charged for 2:28 and then illuminated for approximately 2 seconds. This represents a 1.35 % duct cycle. If that USB light draws a full 500ma, at 5v, then the Orbo produces 33.75 mw continuous power. I have found that led light on amazon, but I can not find the rated current draw. Frank, would you be able to measure the led current when plugged into a standard usb charger port? With that data, the 33mw could be further refined.

    EDIT: http://www.amazon.ca/Flexible-Light-Black-Switch-Notebook/dp/B00FZR0OK4 shows the draw to be 1.5 watts, making the Orbo produce 20mw.

    • Ged

      Frank also measured it as 1.5 W (look below in the thread), so that is good to know.

  • mike wolf

    You know Frank. Speaking of live chats. You should create a google hangout for all of us. Mic all the people that know what is going on. So we can hear you guys.
    If you are as faithful to it as you are to ecatworld. When alt energy goes mainline all those hangouts potentially become viral. Just saying.

  • mike wolf

    You know Frank. Speaking of live chats. You should create a google hangout for all of us. Mic all the people that know what is going on. So we can hear you guys.
    If you are as faithful to it as you are to ecatworld. When alt energy goes mainline all those hangouts potentially become viral. Just saying.

  • Zephir

    Well, there is thin and perspective dependent boundary between void critique and constructive feedback. I hope, Franck will select the best from this thread for his further advancement with ORBO tests.

    • ecatworld

      Sure, Zephir.

      I’ve had the unit in my possession for about 24 hours now, and as you know it’s not the kind of Ocube anyone was expected to be shipped, so I’m having to try and adjust to this capacitor-Ocube, and there have been lots of interesting and useful comments here with ideas to try. I think we will have time to try a number of different things, and am making preparations for some already.

      • georgehants

        Admins latest picture above, if compared with some of the examples of modern art that sell for high prices should go to a gallery specializing in such things, could be regarded as a new age of artistic construction.
        Look forward to Admins investigation today.
        Would be good to hear from Mr Steorn again now.

    • Ged

      Critique/criticism/constructive feedback all require one thing: that an improvement suggestion/method/details are provided as an alternative. Being a skeptic also demands that one provide an alternative hypothesis or method. Just complaining as the quote you posted is simply the same as replacing the rational brain with an impatient, petulant child. Because it is useless impatience. Testing results come with time, improvements come with time, and this device itself is completely dependent on time. So enough of this worthlessness, such a person as you quoted saying such derision after only a few hours of fiddling with a new test subject demands our denunciation till they mend their foolishness.

      • SG

        These are somewhat old testimonials, at least in Orbo time, which passes very quickly these days. Also, not sure what you are implying given that nearly everyone who has an Orbo-powered device seems pretty cheery.

  • Sean

    How about’s just using one small little led and try that to see how long it lasts. Also some experimentation should be done in a shielded fixed steady environment, made from soft steel and lead or gold foil. Making sure that it is within a closed containment. A micro sized optic fibre is then placed at the LED lens. This fibre would need to pass through the Lead shield. A small coil of the optic fibre be created inside the Lead before exit to prevent any direct or induced radiation penetration into the experiment. The fibre then must be shielded from light till it enters the light spectrometer box some distance away. From there, linked to computerized analytical device to measure light output and frequency. We should be able to pick up the heartbeat of what’s going on from the noise fingerprint the LED light makes. The results need to be recorded with every style of experiment and scrutinized by a physicist. This is a sure project for one who is keen to search physical matter and energy whatever its source. (Inside or outside this universe?.)

    • Anon2012_2014

      A resistor under load with multimeters measuring voltage and current gives us a lot better data than any amount of LEDs.

  • jokuvaan

    I would expect that it’s fully glued and there is no way to open it normally, you have to saw it from the side, bit by bit and even then there could be tricks inside to assure damage.

    • SG

      I doubt this is the case given that Shaun of Steorn is encouraging Frank to open it.

  • Charlie tapp

    What is out tech and why does it have capacitance

  • Charlie tapp

    Maybe start with 5 min charge time the discharge then 10 minute charge time the discharge then 15 min charge time the discharge in a few hours you would have some good info. I personally am glad frank has it I would of had that sucker in a million pieces by now and would not be getting any testing done thanks frank

  • FC

    This whole thing is turning very quickly into a nightmare, both for Frank and for Steorn.

    I’m afraid that, even if something positive comes out of Frank’s test, it will not convince any skeptic.

    In the absence of a more simple and robust Orbo technology demonstrator, I really hope that Steorn start shipping “normal” OCubes ASAP.

    • Ged

      This is really more simple than that, guys. If it can charge on its own with no discernible input power over a point of time where any battery would be drained, there you go. If it eventually drains out and stops charging, then it is a failed product, and there you go.

      There is nothing to be “skeptical” about, it’s binary. Either it keeps charging, or it stops. The SPEED of the test rests on how vigorously we measure it and drain it. But no matter what, time will run its course and prove only one or the other point.

      There is no nightmare, there is only science.
      There is no convincing, there is only data.
      There is no “normal”, there is only measurements.

      • FC

        Ged,

        I’m not a skeptic, and I hope you’re right in the end.

        But I’m sure you have enough experience dealing with skeptics to know that they will find many excuses to reject your claims, given the conditions under which this test is taking place.

        • Ged

          Who cares? I mean seriously, who cares? People talk about these “skeptics” (which they aren’t, a skeptic has an alternate hypothesis/method improvement to propose) as if they matter or are a thing. They are meaningless. No one is saying anything about this device other than Frank is trying to test it and this is the first half a day of that. These “skeptics” as defined are just instant gratification monkeys–meaningless. All that matters is the work testing the device and that will take time. There are NO conclusions made yet. To be skeptical, a CONCLUSION must already be presented for evaluation. So, there are no “skeptics” even in existence yet, just derisive folks who are wasting everyone’s time and theirs with no advancing ideas/methods.

          • FC

            Granted.

            It’s just that some of those false skeptics have the power to shape public opinion, without conclusions.

            Steorn can only fight them giving the public something undeniably useful. And I can’t wait for that to happen. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Blue Energy

            Something undeniably useful will have legs of its own.

          • Ged

            Personally, I doubt the device will be a success, and fully expect it to burn out at any time here. And if it succeeds, my bet is it is harvesting ambient energy through some clever, dense packing of well known energy harvesting materials.

            But none of that matters, only the testing and the process of gathering details by which we characterize and find out the nature of what we have before us. Whatever the data says, and the process of getting data is a constant evolution, always, is what it says and all that will matter. We will see!

          • FC

            I’m surprised by your doubts, Ged.

            Then, I guess you believe the OPhone to have better chances of success, do you?

          • Ged

            It’s the same tech, so whatever we find out for one should apply to the other. But, that does mean there are a lot more tests going on right now of the overall technology ;). With Anon’s protocol we’ll find out a lot of the basic parameters very easily, and from that we will get a much better picture of the device. All things in time.

          • FC

            Right. I just thought that Steorn had had enough of testing and they were taking the marketing route instead, to let the public decide for themselves.

          • Ged

            They are. This is not a Steorn test product. This is a consumer product Frank bought. He is testing it as a consumer.

          • FC

            Ged,

            I totally agree that an OCube is a consumer product that anybody can test. If it charges, it works. If it doesn’t charge, it doesn’t work.

            But to me, what Frank got is more of a test product. In fact, he’s is having to buy all kinds of tools, electronic components, and equipment to test it.

            That’s why I feel it’s imperative for Steorn to start shipping OCubes, because most consumers are not engineers.

          • mike wolf

            Bingo! Those skeptopaths we all see and know have no credibility left. I don’t mind normal skeptics, they help. As sure as I feel about alt energy, I am still skeptical deep down. But I am happy in the hope of. Where as the skeptopaths seem angry that people are even trying.

    • Annet de Graaf

      I can’t imagine the volume of faith in this whole project. Scepticism is a natural process. And why are you all “nerdies” responding like this is some outstanding project with a positive outcome? Is it because of the 15 years of development? Could it not possibly be that you were all sleeping along the process? And within this testing the truth will reveal itself? I’m an outsider, who visit the mystery of unraveling free energy, just today … but I can’t reconcile the fact that the first delivery of the unite O-cube is a failure? Every startup delivers a quality product! with at least a manual.

      • Ged

        What’s positive is it is in people’s hands to test now, no one is saying anything else. The truth will be revealed as it’s really simple–either it keeps recharging or not. Who knows what it will do, that’s why it’s being tested. Patience!

    • Blue Energy

      Not true. I am a skeptic and I am willing to be convinced by the result of Frank’s efforts – one way or the other. It will take some doing – but it has only been a day! There are some who have long since decided for sure what they think: derider or true believer. They will claim that any result other than theirs is false. For the rest of us, actual testing after all these years is a huge blessing. And for those who have not been a part of the process previously and yet believe they have a right to claim ownership of it now – what are you going to do about people like that anyway? The web lets them talk but that doesn’t mean we should listen.

      • FC

        Blue Energy,

        I totally agree.

        In my case, I’m more of a believer, but I’m open to accept whatever result comes out of Frank’s test.

        Unfortunately, not everyone is as open minded. And that’s what I’m afraid of.

        • Ged

          There is plenty of room for all sorts of tests. This is a very long term device, however it’s Very easy to disprove. If it stops recharging, it’s game over. There is nothing mystical or complex about the endpoints.

          • FC

            Absolutely, Ged.

            But for that to happen, we need Steorn to start shipping OCubes. That’s all I meant to say before.

          • Ged

            Steorn is. There’s another blog I watch that also has an Ocube on the way. The Post Office just got to Frank first.

          • FC

            That’s great to hear, Ged.

    • Zephir

      For to convince the skeptics you should draw quite a load from Orbo Cube. The nightmare scenario (which even Steorn may not be fully aware of) is, this unit is working like sorta fuel cell and it generates its electricity into account of gradual oxidization of metal electrodes, carbon, wax or both. Under such a circumstances it may take a years until you draw its theoretical power capacity with 80 milliAmps and you can also forget some manual tests.

      • Ged

        Easy to calculate energy density using the weight of the device and whatever its constant (if it is constant) power production is. Given it is supposed to charge phones, we also get an idea of its energy density very quickly with the version that has a battery (and I doubt wax is any way even remotely close to lithium ion in energy density, or we’d be using it in our phones, eh?). Following Anon’s protocol will answer a lot of things instantly. But an important bit of knowledge already gained is that a battery is not needed and there is some sort of trickle charging.

        I bet it’s just harvesting ambient energy through some clever solid state, 3D compaction of normal technologies we already know about but no one has yet put together. Easy to test with temperature ranges and faraday cages.

        • Zephir

          /* Following Anon’s protocol will answer a lot of things instantly */

          You cannot prove instantly anything with power cell, which has theoretical capacity about 50 Ah while it allows to draw only 50 mA current max. BTW What the people here have with ambient energy? Don’t they realize its actual power density? When you’re hearing radio playing loudly, it doesn’t mean, its energy comes from ambient. This energy is in range of milliwats per cubic meter and the Orbo Cube comes fully shielded with massive aluminum cover.

          • Ged

            Energy density is simple. Weight can give us the maximum energy density possible, and power draw will tell us how fast we expect to deplete it, then we have to look at the physics of the circuit behavior for the different energy source types. It will take just a month to deplete this thing if it was a 6 cell lithium ion battery, at the current rate. Not long at all on the scales we care about, so no, it isn’t at all like you applied in the post above mine. Also, Amp-hours aren’t useful, we want Watt-hours, because voltage is variable; that much we know already.

          • Zephir

            The wax has theoretical energy density 12 watt hours per gram, i.e. 12 amper hours per gram at one volt i.e. like three AA lithium cells. And the powerpack of Orbo has a volume roughly 0.1 dm3. If I we consider 1g/ccm density, it makes energy of 300 AA lithium cellls, which would take fifty months to deplete.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Frank,

            Is it solid feeling if you shake it, or does it feel like it has a pendulum on springs inside.

            I hear it go thunk when you put it down on the table.

            Would you mind weighing it?

          • ecatworld

            It’s very solid feeling. No rattles or vibrations.

          • Ged

            You mean like the Standard Energizer AA Size 1.5V 3000mAh Lithium Battery? Those are 4.5 Wh, while a 6 cell Li-ion battery runs between 38 to 65 Whr. Should tell all those mobile phone makers they should have been using wax all along.

            But in all seriousness, weighing it is what is required, and opening it would answer a lot. But science will wait however long it takes.

    • Anon2012_2014

      To make useful energy it has to make an economically useful amount. I take that to be of the order of 50 mW for a device of that volume.

      We will find out later if it has batteries or large super capacitors large enough to jigger any test.

      There is no magic only science and the scientific method will prove if Orbo is a breakthrough or just a good energy harvester with good marketing.

      • FC

        Right. But, as I just said to Ged below, I thought that Steorn had had enough of testing and they were taking the marketing route instead, to let the public decide for themselves.

    • SG

      > it will not convince any skeptic

      In my view, we are not here to convince pseudo-skeptics. They will never be convinced–nor is it worth our time trying. We are here to determine for ourselves, with an open mind, whether the data supports Steorn’s claims, or not. If it does, and the manufacturing costs can drop significantly with mass production, then the world changes. If it doesn’t, then we go back to our regularly scheduled programming.

      • FC

        SG,

        As you said, to change the world we need mass production. And mass production only makes sense when there is massive demand.

        How are Steorn going to create massive demand? By convincing enough people who currently are either skeptical or gulled by the opinion of powerful pseudo skeptics.

        IMHO, some convincing is needed. And also IMHO, such convincing can be achieved more easily by shipping more OCubes than by elaborate testing. ๐Ÿ™‚

        • SG

          We are certainly in agreement that more Ocubes need to be shipped, and preferably soon. The Ophones as well. The more people testing and reporting the better. If there is any there there, then the “powerful” (pitiful?) pseudo skeptics will not matter an iota in the big scheme of things. They will not be the ones written about in the history books.

          • FC

            Exactly!

    • FC

      Given the misunderstanding that this comment has caused, I will attempt to rephrase it here:

      Considering that the vast majority of consumers are not engineers, I think that Steorn would obtain better marketing results by shipping more OCubes (without any missing component) to regular consumers than by having an OCube (without the battery) tested by an independent third party. Provided, of course, that OCubes work as advertised.

  • FC

    This whole thing is turning very quickly into a nightmare, both for Frank and for Steorn.

    I’m afraid that, even if something positive comes out of Frank’s test, it will not convince any skeptic.

    In the absence of a more simple and robust Orbo technology demonstrator, I really hope that Steorn start shipping “normal” OCubes ASAP.

    • Ged

      This is really more simple than that, guys. If it can charge on its own with no discernible input power over a point of time where any battery would be drained, there you go. If it eventually drains out and stops charging, then it is a failed product, and there you go.

      There is nothing to be “skeptical” about, it’s binary. Either it keeps charging, or it stops. The SPEED of the test rests on how vigorously we measure it and drain it. But no matter what, time will run its course and prove only one or the other point.

      There is no nightmare, there is only science.
      There is no convincing, there is only data.
      There is no “normal”, there is only measurements.

      • FC

        Ged,

        I’m not a skeptic, and I hope you’re right in the end.

        But I’m sure you have enough experience dealing with skeptics to know that they will find many excuses to reject your claims, given the conditions under which this test is taking place.

        • Ged

          Who cares? I mean seriously, who cares? People talk about these “skeptics” (which they aren’t, a skeptic has an alternate hypothesis/method improvement to propose) as if they matter or are a thing. They are meaningless. No one is saying anything about this device other than Frank is trying to test it and this is the first half a day of that. These “skeptics” as defined are just instant gratification monkeys–meaningless. All that matters is the work testing the device and that will take time. There are NO conclusions made yet. To be skeptical, a CONCLUSION must already be presented for evaluation. So, there are no “skeptics” even in existence yet, just derisive folks who are wasting everyone’s time and theirs with no advancing ideas/methods.

          • FC

            Granted.

            It’s just that some of those false skeptics have the power to shape public opinion, without conclusions.

            Steorn can only fight them giving the public something undeniably useful. And I can’t wait for that to happen. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Blue Energy

            Something undeniably useful will have legs of its own.

          • Ged

            Personally, I doubt the device will be a success, and fully expect it to burn out at any time here. And if it succeeds, my bet is it is harvesting ambient energy through some clever, dense packing of well known energy harvesting materials.

            But none of that matters, only the testing and the process of gathering details by which we characterize and find out the nature of what we have before us. Whatever the data says, and the process of getting data is a constant evolution, always, is what it says and all that will matter. We will see!

          • FC

            I’m surprised by your doubts, Ged.

            Then, I guess you believe the OPhone to have better chances of success, do you?

          • Ged

            It’s the same tech, so whatever we find out for one should apply to the other. But, that does mean there are a lot more tests going on right now of the overall technology ;). With Anon’s protocol we’ll find out a lot of the basic parameters very easily, and from that we will get a much better picture of the device. All things in time.

          • FC

            Right. I just thought that Steorn had had enough of testing and they were taking the marketing route instead, to let the public decide for themselves.

          • Ged

            They are. This is not a Steorn test product. This is a consumer product Frank bought. He is testing it as a consumer.

          • FC

            Ged,

            I totally agree that an OCube is a consumer product that anybody can test. If it charges, it works. If it doesn’t charge, it doesn’t work.

            But to me, what Frank got is more of a test product. In fact, he’s is having to buy all kinds of tools, electronic components, and equipment to test it.

            That’s why I feel it’s imperative for Steorn to start shipping OCubes, because most consumers are not engineers.

          • mike wolf

            Bingo! Those skeptopaths we all see and know have no credibility left. I don’t mind normal skeptics, they help. As sure as I feel about alt energy, I am still skeptical deep down. But I am happy in the hope of. Where as the skeptopaths seem angry that people are even trying.

      • tchernik

        Agree. This is not a matter of belief, but of simple direct true/false evidence. Either it works as specified or it doesn’t. No more interpretations.

        Even if this unit is faulty (as specified by Steorn by the way), if it keeps measurably recharging its internal capacitor for weeks/months, it would still attract my attention.

        We have invented all kinds of more or less expensive tech that tries to have a long lasting charge, for driving all kinds of low power applications.

        Tritium batteries, radiothermal generators, solar photovoltaics, etc.

        The evidenced power is well within the humanly visible, and also, within potential commercial interest.

    • Annet de Graaf

      I can’t imagine the volume of faith in this whole project. Scepticism is a natural process. And why are you all “nerdies” responding like this is some outstanding project with a positive outcome? Is it because of the 15 years of development? Could it not possibly be that you were all sleeping along the process? And within this testing the truth will reveal itself? I’m an outsider, who visit the mystery of unraveling free energy, just today … but I can’t reconcile the fact that the first delivery of the unite O-cube is a failure? Every startup delivers a quality product! with at least a manual.

      • Ged

        What’s positive is it is in people’s hands to test now, no one is saying anything else. The truth will be revealed as it’s really simple–either it keeps recharging or not. Who knows what it will do, that’s why it’s being tested. Patience!

    • Blue Energy

      Not true. I am a skeptic and I am willing to be convinced by the result of Frank’s efforts – one way or the other. It will take some doing – but it has only been a day! There are some who have long since decided for sure what they think: derider or true believer. They will claim that any result other than theirs is false. For the rest of us, actual testing after all these years is a huge blessing. And for those who have not been a part of the process previously and yet believe they have a right to claim ownership of it now – what are you going to do about people like that anyway? The web lets them talk but that doesn’t mean we should listen.

      • FC

        Blue Energy,

        I totally agree.

        In my case, I’m more of a believer, but I’m open to accept whatever result comes out of Frank’s test.

        Unfortunately, not everyone is as open minded. And that’s what I’m afraid of.

        • Ged

          There is plenty of room for all sorts of tests. This is a very long term device, however it’s Very easy to disprove. If it stops recharging, it’s game over. There is nothing mystical or complex about the endpoints.

          • FC

            Absolutely, Ged.

            But for that to happen, we need Steorn to start shipping OCubes. That’s all I meant to say before.

          • Ged

            Steorn is. There’s another blog I watch that also has an Ocube on the way. The Post Office just got to Frank first.

          • FC

            That’s great to hear, Ged.

    • Zephir

      Yes, this was the silent memo of my previous posts too. In addition, for to convince the skeptics you should draw quite a load from Orbo Cube. The nightmare scenario (which even Steorn may not be fully aware of) is, this unit is working like sorta fuel cell and it generates its electricity into account of gradual oxidization of metal electrodes, carbon, wax or both. Under such a circumstances it may take a years until you draw its theoretical power capacity with 80 milliAmps and you can also forget some manual tests.

      • Ged

        Easy to calculate energy density using the weight of the device and whatever its constant (if it is constant) power production is. Given it is supposed to charge phones, we also get an idea of its energy density very quickly with the version that has a battery (and I doubt wax is any way even remotely close to lithium ion in energy density, or we’d be using it in our phones, eh?). Following Anon’s protocol will answer a lot of things instantly. But an important bit of knowledge already gained is that a battery is not needed and there is some sort of trickle charging.

        I bet it’s just harvesting ambient energy through some clever solid state, 3D compaction of normal technologies we already know about but no one has yet put together. Easy to test with temperature ranges and faraday cages.

        • Zephir

          /* Following Anon’s protocol will answer a lot of things instantly */

          You cannot prove instantly anything with power cell, which has theoretical capacity about 50 Ah while it allows to draw only 50 mA current max. BTW What the people here have with ambient energy? Don’t they realize its actual power density? When you’re hearing radio playing loudly, it doesn’t mean, its energy comes from ambient. This energy is in range of milliwats per cubic meter and the Orbo Cube comes fully shielded with massive aluminum cover.

          • Ged

            Energy density is simple. Weight can give us the maximum energy density possible, and power draw will tell us how fast we expect to deplete it, then we have to look at the physics of the circuit behavior for the different energy source types. It will take just a month to deplete this thing if it was a 6 cell lithium ion battery, at the current rate. Not long at all on the scales we care about, so no, it isn’t at all like you implied in the post above mine. Also, Amp-hours aren’t useful, we want Watt-hours, because voltage is variable; that much we know already.

          • Zephir

            The wax has theoretical energy density 12 watt hours per gram, i.e. 12 amper hours per gram at one volt i.e. like three AA lithium cells. And the powerpack of Orbo has a volume roughly 0.1 dm3. If I we consider 1g/ccm density, it makes energy of 300 AA lithium cellls, which would take fifty months to deplete.

          • Ged

            You mean like the Standard Energizer AA Size 1.5V 3000mAh Lithium Battery? Those are 4.5 Wh, while a 6 cell Li-ion battery runs between 38 to 65 Whr. Should tell all those mobile phone makers they should have been using wax all along.

            But in all seriousness, weighing it is what is required, and opening it would answer a lot. But science will wait however long it takes.

    • Anon2012_2014

      To make useful energy it has to make an economically useful amount. I take that to be of the order of 50 mW for a device of that volume.

      We will find out later if it has batteries or large super capacitors large enough to jigger any test.

      There is no magic only science and the scientific method will prove if Orbo is a breakthrough or just a good energy harvester with good marketing.

      • FC

        Right. But, as I just said to Ged below, I thought that Steorn had had enough of testing and they were taking the marketing route instead, to let the public decide for themselves.

    • SG

      > it will not convince any skeptic

      In my view, we are not here to convince pseudo-skeptics. They will never be convinced because their minds are closed–nor is it worth our time trying. We are here to determine for ourselves, with an open but skeptical mind, whether the data supports Steorn’s claims, or not. If it does, and the manufacturing costs can drop significantly with mass production, then the world changes. If it doesn’t, then we go back to our regularly scheduled programming.

      • FC

        SG,

        As you said, to change the world we need mass production. And mass production only makes sense when there is massive demand.

        How are Steorn going to create massive demand? By convincing enough people who currently are either skeptical or gulled by the opinion of powerful pseudo skeptics.

        IMHO, some convincing is needed. And also IMHO, such convincing can be achieved more easily by shipping more OCubes than by elaborate testing. ๐Ÿ™‚

        • SG

          We are certainly in agreement that more Ocubes need to be shipped, and preferably soon. The Ophones as well. The more people testing and reporting the better. If there is any there there, then the “powerful” (pitiful?) pseudo skeptics will not matter an iota in the big scheme of things. They will not be the ones written about in the history books.

          • FC

            Exactly!

    • FC

      Given the misunderstanding that this comment has caused, I will attempt to rephrase it here:

      Considering that the vast majority of consumers are not engineers, I think that Steorn would obtain better marketing results by shipping more OCubes (without any missing component) to regular consumers than by having an OCube (without the battery) tested by an independent third party. Provided, of course, that OCubes work as advertised.

  • SD

    I say stick a screwdriver in the screw holes and use a bit of leverage to pull the lid out without breaking it.

  • Stephen Taylor

    So, Steorn has shipped a unit to Frank and it will not charge any of his electronic devices even one time. Whatever is in the “Big Red Box” seems to be capable of supplying something like 20mW or so. If it’s a big throttled “battery” this is going to be a long and boring test. Oh well, we do need a distraction from the Rossi shenanigans.

    • You did read what Frank has written, that they accidentally sent him one without a Lithium-Ion battery? And are sending him one with the Lithium-Ion battery, free of charge?

      • Stephen Taylor

        Oh, that will certainly add clarity!

        • What are you whining about Stephen? Now we (the people) have some device that WE OURSELVES CAN TEST and maybe we will discover this year a miracle! Now we can prove if Orbo works or not, so why not waiting a few months and come back then and laugh. Orโ€ฆ.

      • Stephen Taylor

        Sorry Esa, I just can’t get serious about this and I am in deep disappointment on the whole LENR scenario. Please, we need a breakthrough or we better start building thorium fast breeders like our lives depend on it because they do.

        • Ged

          As far as I am aware, the Ocube has nothing to do with LENR.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Hi GED, good to have a chance to say hello. My guess on this very old Steorn yarn is that It probably has most to do with chemistry, as in a large throttled battery. As such it will take an extremely long time to fully discharge it at the miniscule throttled discharge rate. Whatever “it” turns out to be I am not expecting an energy revolution from the ” Big Red Box” any time soon. I will try to refrain from commenting on this subject as I really can’t take it seriously. It does provide a useful diversion as we wait and hope for a clean energy solution. Of course I realize it likely has nothing to do with the stated purpose of this site.

          • Ged

            You are probably completely right. We’ll have to see when we get a look inside.

        • Thank you for informing me and the internets that you can’t get serious about something and are deeply disappointed in something else.

          Me, I’m still waiting for my ADGEX ELFE flashlight to be mailed out to me, after ordering it on the 29th of October 2015. I’m hoping it will finally arrive this month, and not end of March. However, the discussions I’ve seen thus far on overunity-forums etc are leading me, too, to be quite depressed about the state of affairs – there’s just too much vagueness going on.

  • Gray Squirrel

    The first thing that has to be done here, is to get a volt meter on that USB output and monitor it at all time. That is, before, during, and after test loads. This is essential to help us figure out what is going on.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      The fact of a capacitor being in part of
      the system does confuse this issue, but I recommend as a simple test to hook up
      a volt meter with sufficient wire length. Read the voltage, and then place the
      orbo in a metal tool box (with the volt meter outside for ease of reading). You
      could also perhaps use a microwave oven (not suggesting you turn on the
      microwave! – but just placing it in a box โ€“ any kind of metal tool box would suffice.

      The reason for above is to close off the VAST amounts of external energy sources. Keep in mind that Wi-Fi, radio, TV, cell phone broadcast are simply electricity being transmitted through the air.
      My original speculation of this being a radio receiver many months ago here would thus be eliminated with such a simple test.

      You want to test/see the continues voltage for several hours before placing the device inside of a metal box to see if power output drops.

      So the above is a โ€œsimpleโ€ test that would eliminate that this is a simple radio receiver.

      And here is an you-tube video of a radio hat takes no batters and runs forever due to radio waves simply being electrical energy being transmitted through the air:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaPgzO1P62M

      The above radio NEVER needs batteries โ€“ and is loud enough to drive a speaker from the strength of the radio broadcast waves.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Frank Acland

        Good idea, Albert. Maybe we could try something along the lines of discharging it completely, then leaving it in a metal box, or series of metal boxes, for a day or so, and see how it behaves after you take it out.

      • Gray Squirrel

        I use to make those radios when I was a kid. It was lots of fun. But, it needed a very long antenna. Or, you could clip it to the metal stop on an old rotary phone.

    • Pweet

      From watching the second video, it’s very apparent the power is being shut off by internal circuitry long before the capacitor is fully discharged. There is no apparent dimming of the LED lamp during the short discharge cycle so my guess is it’s shutting down only a bit less than 5 volts, which is the standard usb output voltage. This would be to protect the lithium battery if one was fitted as it should have been, and also to protect whatever might be connected to it which might be adversely affected by less than the standard 5 volt USB standard supply.

      What the video shows is very useful to estimate the steady state power output. Thanks for that.
      As a rough indication it can be assumed that all the energy which was put in over a period of two minutes was used up in 2 seconds. This being the case, the input current can be worked out by a simple proportion calculation.
      energy in over 2 minutes = energy out over 2 seconds.
      Since the voltage is about constant at 5 volts we can work out the charge current as being
      2sec / 120 sec times 500ma = 8.33 milliamps
      At 5 volts that works out to a charge power of 8.33ma times 5v = 41.66 milliwatts.

      Note that this assumes the lamp draws 500ma at 5 volts = 2.5 watts.
      You can check the lamp specs to make adjustments to this calculation if different.
      Plus, more accurately measure the times of both the charge cycle and the discharge time to get a more accurate calculation. Do it a few times to make sure it’s consistent. It wont damage anything.

      I’m not too surprised to see the figure of 41milliwatts.
      It would be consistent with what you could harvest from stray emf in the air in a house or office.
      I very much doubt it is harvesting any energy from dark matter, dark energy or any other ethereal energy source.
      If it was putting out one watt or anything close I could change my mind but on the figures so far, stray emf’s is my top guess. It’s still very interesting though.

      As always, take the most simple and probable source as being most likely, until proven otherwise. That goes for sauces as well. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • Linda

    To get the bottom off, use a suction cup, like the kind you can get at the hardware store for hanging things up in your shower. Attach it firmly, get a good grip on both the top and the suction cup, and then gently pull till the bottom plate separates.

  • Anon2012_2014

    Frank,

    Is it solid feeling if you shake it, or does it feel like it has a pendulum on springs inside.

    I hear it go thunk when you put it down on the table.

    Would you mind weighing it?

    • Frank Acland

      It’s very solid feeling. No rattles or vibrations.

  • Farad Oliveira de Araujo

    Your webcam is really bad…

  • snowvoardphil

    I think if I’d be in Franks shoes, I’d go ahead and crack that thing open, hell, I’d go at it with a dremel tool or a metal saw.

    I came to realize the other day: If I’d wake up in a UFO, the ONLY useful thing I could do at that point is to try to break apart and ingest any possible piece of anything I could get my hands on in that ship. I tough to myself, this is actually the ONLY thing your mind should be obsessed about, once you get the chance to find yourself anywhere close to a UFO ship. THE ONLY THING.

    Now what Frank is faced with, seems like a similar scenario. There he is, with in his own hands, something that’s supposed to be totally inexplicable, something from out of this world by any scientific definition and yet, like Rossi, and Steorn, chose to keep the secret enclosed inside, not really wanting to go extra mile and uncover the whole thing.

    Some readers here ask Rossi and others like him to, please, have there technologie come out as soon as possible for the sake of mankind. But once, where presented with the little magical black box, we stare at it in awe and we forget that, every more minute this technology is not understood, is a minute wasted not helping mankind get to know it.

    Frank, this 1300$ little box is yours, of course you do what you want with it. But I think the last thing you should be scared of, is to go the extra mile, letting time go by, not having the slightness clue what’s really going on in there.

    Honestly, think about it, what could possibly happen that you couldn’t get some electronics nerd to fix !!, Wires can be soldered back, capacitors can be bought at any little electronics shop. Heck, I dropped my phone in 20 ft of water once and got it working again paying someone 50$ to get it working.

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks for your thoughts, Phil. I am in agreement and have been at it, but trying not to break anything in the process. I think I’m making some progress too with an ice pick and small screwdriver.

      • snowvoardphil

        There’s the spirit !! Bring us back some proof of your encounter with a UFO !!

      • Blue Energy

        It occurs to me that something with a right angle (like a hex key…) that could be slipped into a screw hole that would allow one to pull up from underneath, rather than pry from the top, might be useful to at least try.

        • Frank Acland

          When you go down into those screwholes there’s really nothing to hook onto. The bottom plate is flush against the threaded holes. Suction cup sounds like a good idea, I must say.

          • You can find little (2″/5cm) lever operated suction cups in the cheapo tools sections of various chain stores, or very often from market traders and similar. They’re also available on eBay if you don’t have anything like that nearby.

            They’re intended for handling glass when repairing windows, and for pulling dents in car bodywork. You can exert a surprising amount of pulling force before they let go of a shiny surface, especially if you wet the rim of the suction cup first.

            This one is from an eBay ad at just under $5 (US source):

            http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/EEkAAOSwqrtWoC9V/s-l225.jpg

          • mike wolf

            orbo told you it wasn’t glued, but if they used thread lock on the screws, that may be acting as a clue st the holes. So if you are going to use a hammer and chisel hehe, pry it at the area near the holes.

      • mike wolf

        Cmon Frank, don’t chew it up. try the suction cup on the bottom. then you can pull evenly in both directions. Remember, it isn’t a plate on the bottom It is the same shape as the top only a little smaller to fit inside the upper part. Look at streorn’s video.

      • Zephir

        The warranty bond is already broken – see the damage at the last video. No sane manufacture will accept the device for replacement, if it’s scratched in this way.

  • mike wolf

    Put a suction cup on the bottom Frank, those bathroom ones. Pull on with pliers. I bet it works if not glued.

  • LilyLover

    Frank, I’m pretty sure that the encasing is made in a manner similar to that of an old video-game-cartridge. It would be non-continuous zip-lockish pattern. Think more like plastic nokia-mobile-phones of the bygone era that had non-sliding backs.
    So, use small flathead on the large radius end to lift-slide a tiny part out or up or combination. If that doesn’t work try with the small radius end and then try with sides.
    I’m somewhat sure that they must have avoided any modern glues, so keep trying with the camel under the tent approach.
    Good luck.

  • casualvisitor

    It is very straightforward to measure the trickle current: get a number of resistors between 100 and 1000 ohm. Connect one to the output capacitor, selected so that the output voltage is around 5V. Wait for the voltage to stabilize and monitor how long it lasts.

    The power is (V^2)/R

  • Sanjeev

    I hear on the dark web that another person will be getting his Ocube by today or tomorrow.
    I’m not sure if he will do a public test.

    • Which site are you browsing there? ๐Ÿ˜‰
      Is orbo that despised that you have to discuss about it in the dark web? ๐Ÿ˜€

      • Sanjeev

        Don’t want to post a link, I don’t want people to go there , its too Dark ๐Ÿ˜€
        Anyway, someone will do it sooner or later.

        • FC

          Are you talking about Free Energy Truth? Or would that be a third one? :-p

          • Sanjeev

            No. He is expecting it too but no ETA yet.

          • FC

            Exactly. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • FC

            So that make it 4, then?

          • Sanjeev

            Don’t know about Free energy truth actually.

          • FC

            It appears to be the same as freeenergy.news

          • Sanjeev

            No idea really. We will know if they get one.

          • FC

            I just hope they get a OCube with no missing parts.

          • Bob Greenyer

            It is what happens when you pay for Facebook likes.

  • Sanjeev

    I hear on the dark web that another person will be getting his Ocube by today or tomorrow.
    I’m not sure if he will do a public test.

    • Which site are you browsing there? ๐Ÿ˜‰
      Is orbo that despised that you have to discuss about it in the dark web? ๐Ÿ˜€

      • Sanjeev

        Don’t want to post a link, I don’t want people to go there , its too Dark ๐Ÿ˜€
        Anyway, someone will do it sooner or later.

        • FC

          Are you talking about Free Energy Truth? Or would that be a third one? :-p

          • Sanjeev

            No. He is expecting it too but no ETA yet.
            Edit: Sorry I guess I mixed up names. Emso at https://orboblog.wordpress.com/ is expecting it.

          • FC

            Exactly. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • FC

            So that make it 4, then?

          • Sanjeev

            Don’t know about Free energy truth actually.

          • FC

            It appears to be the same as freeenergy.news

          • Sanjeev

            No idea really. We will know if they get one.

          • FC

            I just hope they get a OCube with no missing parts.

  • Sanjeev

    My advice, don’t open it yet. It can be easily tested as is.
    Reposting from last thread –

    I suggest LOS approach. Frank, if he wishes, can create a google spreadsheet and update it with following data periodically –

    Date/time
    Time duration (t, sec)
    V (V)
    I (A)
    Power(W)
    Energy (Joules, = Wxt)

    So, lets say after a week we can simply total the energy and compare it with any energy source of the volume and weight similar to ocube. If it goes on delivering more and more energy, we have a winner.
    It should be loaded with led lights or something, but it should not be too power consuming nor should it consume a negligible power (else it will take months to know). It can be disconnected when it drains off and be allowed to regain the charge. It seems he has this usb meter, but I recommend calibrating it against a known source.

    • DrD

      Sanjeev, it won’t work. We already know the “any energy source” (eg Li-ion – see older comments in this thread) will win hands down over one week because the Ocube is unlikely to be significantly better than Steorns own claims.

      • Sanjeev

        Never say never ๐Ÿ˜‰
        Let the tests decide.

    • DrD

      That won’t work. We know that “any energy source” (eg Li-ion) will win hands down over a one week period. That doesn’t prove it is a battery though.

      • Sanjeev

        Well just extend the duration to 2 weeks or months, whatever exceeds the capacity of known sources. (1 week was just an example).

        The claim is like an everlasting bottle of wine. You need to keep pouring out till you know.
        Pour and measure, and if one day the amount of wine exceeds over the amount any bottle of that size can hold, you will know.

        • DrD

          Sorry, my post(s) were delayed a couple of hours so, please ignore the reposts. Anyway, according to Anon2012_2014 it would need to be 5 years at 1mW which becomes almost 6 months at the 12.2mW that Seppo estimated. A long time to wait but I’m sure it’s not just a giant battery. Opening it up would confirm. Maybe (hopefully) it will be better than 12.2mW and maybe the battery version will be better still but where are those two charging measuring points, accessible when the backs removed?

          • Sanjeev

            Just add more load, extract more power. There is no reason to remain at milliwatts.

          • DrD

            You can’t extract more power because the 12.2mW is it’s actual “measured” charging capability, according to Seppo’s calculation. Adding more load shouldn’t change that. Adding the missing battery just might increase it. Of course 12.2mW might be wrong anyway, it was only a single short “test” period. Can’t wait to hear what Frank finds today.

          • Ged

            Anything electrochemical loses performance the closer to full discharge/reaction it gets. That’s why Li-ion batteries shut down long before their full discharge (and a full discharge can actually destroy their ability to recharge). If this is electrochemical in nature, then monitoring the trickle charge rate should show a slow decline with time, long before it is drained.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Let’s see how it works before we break it even for 1 week.

  • Redford

    For someone like me who does know very little on physic overall this is very interesting. In a way it demonstrates more the orbo power than a fully equipped one. What we see in that video is the ability to reload itself. Pretty amazing.

  • Matt

    Just for the record. 97% of the Orbo facebook friends are from Pakistan (52%), the Philippines, India and so on. That means the high number of more than 300.000 is just bought. That might be some kind of marketing move, however it does not necessarily support their credibility.

    • Bob Greenyer

      It is what happens when you pay for Facebook likes.

  • Gryphon

    Please correct me if I’m way off the mark (it’s been a while since I did any calculations related to electricity!). If the battery (or in this case capacitor) is simply a buffer and means of smoothing the power delivery, then the trickle charge rate surely determines the usefulness of the o cube. Taking my phone as an example it’s battery is rated at 10.85Wh, which equates to 39,060 joules. Someone has estimated that the ocube delivers 20mW continuous trickle charge which is 0.02 joules per second. This means it would take 1,953,000sec or 22.6 days to charge the battery in my phone. If this is right then the only battery which is dead would be the one in my phone for much of the time!

    • Dieter_G

      Your calculations are right, but you confused the numbers :
      The big orbo-pack contained in the o-cube allegedly delivers 400mW, not 20mW. 20mW was the power of the small blue orbo-packs (each) contained in their o-phone.
      So, It’d take about a day to charge the battery of your phone, which is about what they claim.

      • Gryphon

        I think you are right that the red OCube is supposed to deliver 0.4W, however I was basing the 20mW on the estimates made by other commentators on here which were a result of the testing Frank had done so far with the LED array. If it were giving out 0.4W then it could charge a phone like mine (Galaxy S5) just under once per day, which would be quite acceptable. Sadly, if the initial estimates of between 10 and 50mW for this unit are true then it must be considered a failure.

  • So, based on the new video, Orbo had no load from 1:11 to 3:36 which is 145 seconds. During that period it could charge and was then able light up the 1.5 W LED array for approximately one second. This gives a charging power of 10.3 mW (1.5 W x 1/145 ).

    • Sanjeev

      Its premature to say anything. He has not yet started proper quantitative studies.
      Most probably the second ocube will be handed over to MFMP for more in depth tests.
      Wait and watch.

      • Seppo’s conclusion seems reasonable given the small amount of information available about the internals of the device. It’s hard to see how the charging current could be smaller than calculated, as it is a ‘nett’ figure.

        A simple experiment might be to allow charging for a series of timed intervals and then observe the time it can light the array after each. If a linear plot is obtained, the charge rate can be firmed up.

        Possibly this was Shaun’s intention in sending a capacitor-fitted unit, if such a test would show a higher output than that stated, repeatable indefinitely and with no electrochemistry to introduce complicating factors.

        • georgehants

          Morning Peter, the World has been waiting 4.543 billion years for an Orbo, give or take a few billion years, so a few months quietly testing does not seem out of order.

          • Morning George. You’re right of course – but that won’t stop a certain amount of foot stamping if we aren’t reasonably sure that it’s working in a couple of weeks.

            Personally I’m reasonably confident that the gadget will pass any tests Frank can throw at it. Unfortunately I’m less confident that establishment scientists will take any notice of something that threatens their knowledge heaps – but you never know.

          • Comment

            Why don’t you get two of these, one either side, hold it above a soft bed pillow and mattress at a low height and pull apart – unless they don’t want you getting in, it should pop apart.

            Am-Tech 2 1/2-inch Mini Suction Cup https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0036W70BG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_xtYUwbJBZ8N9P

          • Ged

            It is apparently glued shut, and breaking through that glue is what has been giving Frank trouble, but he is winning last I heard by using an ice pick.

          • ecatworld

            New video above showing my efforts to crack the case!

          • gdaigle

            It sure appears to be potted, Frank. Any chance to get an L-shaped tool into the screw hole just under the lid surface and pull up (while holding down the shell on its edge at several points)?

          • Zephir

            Anyway it’s strange in connection with previous McCarthy’s promises, he will enable the users to study the internals of the device. It’s even more strange with respect to his previous announcement, that the device will allow to replace the lithium battery as the only spare part of it.

            Now it’s evident, Frank got some final version of device, which is based on supercapacitor instead of replacable Li battery and it has actually no serviceable parts at all.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            My bs meter on Orbo has positively skyrocketed during these past couple days. What may seem like a “confident gesture” by sending Frank the first O-Cube–and the replacement which was supposed to ship imminently, of which we have heard nothing btw–could very well be a delaying tactic. I mean, suppose they don’t have what they claim. What do they do? Try to buy extra time for as long as possible with antics like these. They even superglued the lid, ffs.

          • Ged

            Frank’s the bloodhound on their scent, with the power of far too many bright minds here giving him good testing suggestions. It looks like they tried to throw us for a loop with the gluing, but that won’t stop progress for long. One way or the other, we will know the truth, soon.

          • Guy Mann

            Is it glued? Or just fitting very tight. If you’ve ever taken apart a MacMini it requires a thin metal tool and some force to separate the case, much like this. I used a putty knife. These edges are rounded though, which makes things more challenging. Also, a change in temperature might cause some expansion, which would make it even more difficult to get off.

          • Ged

            Frank thought it was glued, but if it is just very snugly wedged, then putting it in the fridge to cool it down should help matters.

          • SG

            They wouldn’t go to the trouble of sending the Ocube with a clever plan of gluing it to throw us all off. Simply doesn’t make any sense.

          • Ged

            I have seen far stranger things. But, this version of the cube was sent by mistake and probably never meant to be opened, so if it is glued, then it would be to throw people off on purpose from getting into this particular version.

          • Bob Greenyer

            With all of the shocks and vibrations of you attempting to get into the ORBO, I would think it is charging quite quickly… Perhaps it is powered by frustration.

          • Ged

            Tapping into the vexation field emanated by humanity, the all new Grrcube will keep your annoyingly complicated devices powered and obstinate for ages!

          • Bob Greenyer

            haha

          • Timar

            Such a device would be ultimately self-limiting: free energy > less reason for frustration > less frustration-powered free energy

          • ecatworld
          • Bob Greenyer

            I think you mean self regulating – no charge…. more violent bashing, charge… leave it alone, rinse, repeat

          • hempenearth

            Smoke alarms

          • mike wolf

            I don’t agree. They have gotten like 12 million they could have walked with. Now if they sell 1000 at 1200 which is about ten times less. Now they walk with the money? I don’t think so. Be patient. Remember we have thousands working on fusion for billions of dollars and we have nothing. But you expect the little guy to have it immediately. You are being bias at least, unreasonable at best.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Look, buddy. When you say you’ve got infinite energy and are bending space-time or something, that’s a mighty high claim. That is when you execute execute execute, not screw around like a bunch of hopeless losers. Pardon me for being extremely skeptical in such circumstances. I am still open to my mind being blown…

          • mike wolf

            Problem is that top minds are brainwashed and wouldn’t even consider an attempt. So we are left with normal minds that want to achieved the perceived unachievable. I think you should cut them a little slack. You don’t know it is infinite or able to bend space-time. This is why we get nowhere. People don’t want to doubt what they think they know. That has lead to a closed minded world. The open minded people are ostracized, ridiculed, and slandered. Pity.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            No, they’re not. I am not ostracizing anyone for being open-minded. I am getting annoyed by Orbo acting shady as s***. Just ship the product so it can be tested. They do not have the luxury of over-promise, under-deliver at this point.

          • SG

            They did.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Not the product that they were supposed to ship. There is no expectation for this thing to work, therefore conveniently no way for it to fail. And now we’re not getting the proper unit for “several days”, probably weeks.

    • Zephir

      It could still mean anything – the discharged batteries or even
      supercaps behave in similar way without absolutely no external source of
      electric power. It can be simply rebound of discharged battery.

      • Ged

        More tests and we shall know if that idea is accurate. If a good monitoring of the trickle charge can be rigged up, then we can watch for decay in that as a telltale sign of electrochemial/battery, long before discharge is complete.

        Hopefully Frank can get past that glue and then we’ll know a whole lot more about what’s inside.

  • So, based on the new video, Orbo had no load from 1:33 to 3:36 which is 123 seconds. During that period it could charge and was then able light up the 1.5 W LED array for approximately one second. This gives a charging power of 12.2 mW (1.5 W x 1/123 ).

    • Sanjeev

      Its premature to say anything. He has not yet started proper quantitative studies.
      Most probably the second ocube will be handed over to MFMP for more in depth tests.
      Wait and watch.

      • DrD

        “total the energy and compare it with any energy source of the volume
        and weight similar to ocube” — That doesn’t work — the battery will
        easily win.

        • Not if you go on long enough.

      • Seppo’s conclusion seems reasonable given the small amount of information available about the internals of the device. It’s hard to see how the charging current could be significantly smaller than calculated, as it is a ‘nett’ figure. The only unknown is the exact power level at which the LED array shuts down (it may be a bit lower than the stated 1.5W).

        A simple experiment might be to allow charging for a series of timed intervals and then observe the time it can light the array after each. Videoing each test would provide a convenient means of measuring small intervals, but would be unnecessary once the ‘lighting up’ intervals were over a minute or so, when a stopwatch would do. If a plot of charge time vs. lit time is drawn, the charge rate can be firmed up quite accurately without involving HUG or MFMP at this stage (the current draw of 1.5W would need to be confirmed of course).

        • georgehants

          Morning Peter, the World has been waiting 4.543 billion years for an Orbo, give or take a few billion years, so a few months quietly testing does not seem out of order.

          • Morning George. You’re right of course – but that won’t stop a certain amount of foot stamping if we aren’t reasonably sure that it’s working in a couple of weeks. At the moment the output seems rather lower than anticipated, but further testing will firm that up..

            Personally I’m reasonably confident that the gadget will pass whatever tests Frank can throw at it, including the elimination of the possibility of ambient energy harvesting. Unfortunately I’m less confident that establishment academics and scientists will take any notice of something that threatens their knowledge heaps, which in turn may affect how (or if) it is reported in the pop science rags – but you never know.

      • Dieter_G

        Its is not premature to state, that with about 12mW (ever declining) the thing doesn’t work as advised at the moment.
        If it would deliver about 400mW, it would power Franks big LED-light for about 25% of the time (like 3minutes of, 1 minute on).
        No need to call for MFMP to be able to judge that.

        • Sanjeev

          Did you just made up the “ever declining” bit? I recommended testing before jumping to conclusions.

          • Dieter_G

            of course, its to early for (final) conclusions. As I said, it could be that just the orbo-pack isn’t sonnected internally. Or maybe it got damaged or whatever else.
            But at the moment, it is not living up to what is expected, even if it is not declining further.

        • SG

          You have a misunderstanding about how capacitors work.

    • Dieter_G

      Absolute right !
      I wanted to say the same. What we see here could be attributed to the dielectric relaxation which is common to all capacitors, especially supercaps (causing them to “recharge” a bit after power was drawn, see wiki for more info).
      Let me guess : you have to wait longer and longer each time, until it will light the LEDs again ?
      If so, then there is maybe no recharching at all (except dielectric relaxation of the cap).
      Maybe the “orbo-pack” is just not connected at all, having its wires “hanging in the air”.

      I suggest opening it and have a look.

      • The dielectric relaxation happens within seconds after the load is removed. On the video, there was no charge/light achieved after the 22 seconds between disconnect and reconnect. Recharging happened later. And, remember, there is no battery so no rebound of discharged battery either. – But we do not know what is inside and this is all speculation.

    • Zephir

      It could still mean anything – the discharged batteries or even supercaps behave in similar way without absolutely no external source of electric power. It can be simply rebound of discharged battery.

      • Ged

        More tests and we shall know if that idea is accurate. If a good monitoring of the trickle charge can be rigged up, then we can watch for decay in that as a telltale sign of electrochemial/battery, long before discharge is complete.

        Hopefully Frank can get past that glue and then we’ll know a whole lot more about what’s inside.

  • Visitor

    “Radioisotope thermoelectric generator”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

    Is it possible that it contains such a mechanism?

    • damn_right _man

      Have You seen “the martian” ? Do You really think, steorn would be allowed to sell such a thing ?

      • Visitor

        No, but building few devices just to get verification followed by a billion$ check doesnโ€™t require a license to sellโ€ฆ

        (Just for clarification – I do believe that Steorn technology is real)

        • damn_right _man

          I believe it does, If You use radioactive components in a commercial product ( AFAIK never done before ).

          • hempenearth

            Smoke alarms

    • Dieter_G

      technically yes, but its highly unlikely because you need to get hands on heavily radioactive material which is normally not possible.
      And even if you get it done somehow, you’d vanish in prison for a very long time.
      It would simply be insane to do so.

  • Sanjeev

    Well just extend the duration to 2 weeks or months, whatever exceeds the capacity of known sources. (1 week was just an example).

    The claim is like an everlasting bottle of wine. You need to keep pouring out till you know.

    • DrD

      Sorry, my post(s) were delayed a couple of hours so, please ignore the reposts. Anyway, according to Anon2012_2014 it would need to be 5 years at 1mW which becomes almost 6 months at the 12.2mW that Seppo estimated. A long time to wait but I’m sure it’s not just a giant battery. Opening it up would confirm. Maybe (hopefully) it will be better than 12.2mW and maybe the battery version will be better still but where are those two charging measuring points, accessible when the backs removed?

      • Sanjeev

        Just add more load, extract more power. There is no reason to remain at milliwatts.

        • Ged

          That’s a good idea, but untested till we open it. Supposedly it shipped without its battery, and the capacitor can’t store as much energy (obviously), and that is why the lower performance. Peeking inside and further power draw testing will show which idea is right.

          • txt29

            The performance of the Orbo cells does not depend on the missing battery. The Orbo pack alone is supposed to generate 0.4W of continuous power all the time, regardless if it is plugged to a battery or to a capacitor. That was clearly told in the webinary videos of Steorn. From Frank’s results it is clear that it is not the case, and that there is only several order of magnitude less energy available. So few energy can be easily provided by a conventional source. The conclusion is: Frank’s Orbo does NOT work.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Wait for a test with a <= 0.4 W load. It might be that the electronics of the OCube switches the connection off when it detects possible overloading.

          • This is my first comment here. I’ve been following Steorn for many years also. It is inconceivable to me that after all of this time, knowing this is a very significant event, that Steorn would send out something like this. They appear to be “insane”. If I were you, I wouldn’t worry about the case. I think Steorn owe’s you a new outer case. If you want to get into it, I’d just use a drill, hacksaw and whatever to get the thing open. I wouldn’t worrying about destroying the case. Is the case aluminum? If so, it should be easy to saw and drill through. Those people at Steorn sure have a way of irritating a lot of others! They don’t need a sexy chick selling their items and they don’t need Apple-like packaging. All they need to do is actually deliver what they keep promising!

          • SG

            Thanks for your comment. I’ve seen more new commenters here as a result of the recent Steorn events than I’ve seen in a long time. The more insights the better. That said, I’m not sure that Steorn ever guaranteed that opening the case would be easy. In fact, it is probably in their interests to make it hard. And as for appearing “insane,” I’ve always viewed them as more quirky than anything.

          • Zephir

            And what would you expect Frank with his zero equipment could find inside it? At the best case he will manage to open the unit somehow and during this he will accidentally destroy its electronics inside with some static discharge, so we will get nothing anyway. With his subliminal experience with electronic circuits he should rather focus to nondestructive measurements.

          • Ged

            That is probably the case, but there are caveats. An LED light lamp requires a voltage threshold to operate, not simply constant power (though it needs 1.5 W). The Ocube, even as advertized, cannot power the LED lamp continuously, it must do so via a buffer, and that buffer must build up to a high enough voltage. We see this in action when he plugs in the lamp, and the internal LED light remains on briefly after the lamp fails due to voltage drop.

            So, it could actually be working fine, but with just a capacitor for storage, it would never build up enough energy to do much powering of this particular LED light. To know for sure, several have put out ideas to use resistors in series and directly connect to the wires of the USB port, which would work to give a definite answer.

            Still, so far by all data it isn’t looking good for the Ocube, but the data is not yet complete and we cannot prove or disprove any of the competing ideas yet.

          • txt29

            No, the LED’s working voltage does not matter. The ratio between the rest at 0.4W charging, and the work at 1.6W discharging, still has to be be 4:1, regardless of the size of the capacitor or the working voltage. If the capacitor or the voltage were too small for 5 minutes of light after 20 minutes of rest, it would still work for 1 minute of light after 4 minutes of rest, or for 10 seconds of light after 40 seconds of rest. Or it could simply blink for a second every 4s. It does not. It behaves as if a really tiny power source charged the supercapacitor with an extremely low current. Once it reaches the desired voltage, the lamp blinks for a fraction of a second, and the many minutes long charging cycle starts again.

            Let’s move over. This box simply does not work.

          • Ged

            The lamp stays on for over a second, not a fraction of a second, and I don’t think Frank has ever left it just sitting in the port. We also don’t know how much if any meaningful current bleed this LED lamp device has (the current that flows through it even when “off”, which could keep the capacitor discharged below the needed voltage, since this device doesn’t look like it has an on/off switch), nor do we have a solid idea of recharge time and time on. Let us keep everything in proper perspective. We just don’t have enough information to make leaps to conclusion.

            I have to agree with the other commenters who replied to you, it isn’t quite that simple, but testing with a 0.4 W load, using resistors for instance, would make this easy enough to measure.

      • Ged

        Anything electrochemical loses performance the closer to full discharge/reaction it gets. That’s why Li-ion batteries shut down long before their full discharge (and a full discharge can actually destroy their ability to recharge). If this is electrochemical in nature, then monitoring the trickle charge rate should show a slow decline with time, long before it is drained.

    • Nicholas Cafarelli

      http://goo.gl/r9IDuR
      Link above describes security bits; they are tamper-proof T-drive.

      • ecatworld

        Thanks Nick, I got those off quite easily. See the video above for the hard part.

  • Sanjeev

    Did you just made up the “ever declining” bit? I recommended testing before jumping to conclusions.

    • Sanjeev

      Never say never ๐Ÿ˜‰
      Let the tests decide.

    • Zephir

      The web cam should be placed at fixed stage during filming.

  • Comment

    Why don’t you get two of these, one either side, hold it above a soft bed pillow and mattress at a low height and pull apart – unless they don’t want you getting in, it should pop apart.

    Am-Tech 2 1/2-inch Mini Suction Cup https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0036W70BG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_xtYUwbJBZ8N9P

    • Ged

      It is apparently glued shut, and breaking through that glue is what has been giving Frank trouble, but he is winning last I heard by using an ice pick.

      • Dieter_G

        cool, I’m so eager…

  • Nicholas Cafarelli

    http://goo.gl/r9IDuR
    Link above describes security bits; they are tamper-proof T-drive.

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks Nick, I got those off quite easily. See the video above for the hard part.

  • txt29

    Frank’s testing lamp draws 1.5W. That is less than four times the power the Orbo pack should generate (0.4W x 4 = 1.6W). It means, if you let Orbo 20 minutes resting, it must generate enough power for 1/4 of that time – that is 5 minutes. And since it only blinks for a second (instead of 5′ = 300s), it is clear that Orbo does not work at all, and rather than generating energy, it just charges the supercapacitor from a small conventional battery or another similar source, and it can continue doing so for many weeks.

    • Ged

      That’s a good idea, but untested till we open it. Supposedly it shipped without its battery, and the capacitor can’t store as much energy (obviously), and that is why the lower performance. Peeking inside and further power draw testing will show which idea is right.

      • txt29

        The performance of the Orbo cells does not depend on the missing battery. The Orbo pack alone is supposed to generate 0.4W of continuous power all the time, regardless if it is plugged to a battery or to a capacitor. That was clearly told in the webinary videos of Steorn. From Frank’s results it is clear that it is not the case, and that there is only several order of magnitude less energy available. So few energy can be easily provided by a conventional source. The conclusion is: Frank’s Orbo does NOT work.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Wait for a test with a <= 0.4 W load. It might be that the electronics of the OCube switches the connection off when it detects possible overloading.

        • Ged

          That is probably the case, but there are caveats. An LED light lamp requires a voltage threshold to operate, not simply constant power (though it needs 1.5 W). The Ocube, even as advertized, cannot power the LED lamp continuously, it must do so via a buffer, and that buffer must build up to a high enough voltage. We see this in action when he plugs in the lamp, and the internal LED light remains on briefly after the lamp fails due to voltage drop.

          So, it could actually be working fine, but with just a capacitor for storage, it would never build up enough energy to do much powering of this particular LED light. To know for sure, several have put out ideas to use resistors in series and directly connect to the wires of the USB port, which would work to give a definite answer.

          Still, so far by all data it isn’t looking good for the Ocube, but the data is not yet complete and we cannot prove or disprove any of the competing ideas yet.

          • txt29

            No, the LED’s working voltage does not matter. The ratio between the rest at 0.4W charging, and the work at 1.6W discharging, still has to be be 4:1, regardless of the size of the capacitor or the working voltage. If the capacitor or the voltage were too small for 5 minutes of light after 20 minutes of rest, it would still work for 1 minute of light after 4 minutes of rest, or for 10 seconds of light after 40 seconds of rest. Or it could simply blink for a second every 4s. It does not. It behaves as if a really tiny power source charged the supercapacitor with an extremely low current. Once it reaches the desired voltage, the lamp blinks for a fraction of a second, and the many minutes long charging cycle starts again.

            Let’s move over. This box simply does not work.

          • Ged

            The lamp stays on for over a second, not a fraction of a second, and I don’t think Frank has ever left it just sitting in the port. We also don’t know how much if any meaningful current bleed this LED lamp device has (the current that flows through it even when “off”, which could keep the capacitor discharged below the needed voltage, since this device doesn’t look like it has an on/off switch), nor do we have a solid idea of recharge time and time on. Let us keep everything in proper perspective. We just don’t have enough information to make leaps to conclusion.

            I have to agree with the other commenters who replied to you, it isn’t quite that simple, but testing with a 0.4 W load, using resistors for instance, would make this easy enough to measure.

    • Hans Moog

      It does not have a battery inside – only a 5f capacitor.

      1F = 1ampSeconds / Volt
      5F = 5ampSeconds / Volt

      Since the leds operate at 5 Volt that makes 1 seconds at 1 ampere. Since the leds consume about 0,3 ampere (1,5 watt) they could produce light for a maximum of 3 seconds no matter how long you let the unit charge. Since a capacitor also looses voltage when it discharges it might be way less time since the leds need a certain voltage to operate.

      So the facts that the leds only lights up for a short moment is by no means a proof that the technology does not work.

  • Farad Oliveira de Araujo

    Could you be a crowdfunding for a new webcam?

    • Zephir

      The web cam should be placed at fixed stage during filming.

  • Frank Acland

    New video above showing my efforts to crack the case!

    • gdaigle

      It sure appears to be potted, Frank. Any chance to get an L-shaped tool into the screw hole just under the lid surface and pull up (while holding down the shell on its edge at several points)?

      • Zephir

        It could be actually firmly glued just with respect to expected Franck’s public test. Anyway it’s strange in connection to previous promises of Mr. McCarthy from Steorn, that he will allow the users to study the internals of the device in full extent. It’s even more strange with respect to his previous announcement, that the device will allow the replacement of the lithium battery as the only spare part of it.

        Now it’s evident, Frank got some final/demonstration version of device, which is based on supercapacitor instead of replacable Li battery and it has actually no serviceable parts at all.

    • damn_right _man

      What about the suction cup idea right now ?

  • Anon2012_2014

    Let’s see how it works before we break it even for 1 week.

  • It’s absolutely strange that no one except Frank has received an orbo yet…
    Where are these 1000+ buyers??

    • Ged

      Actually, Frank got his pretty quickly for the mail system, based on when he got confirmation and when the post system contacted him for delivery. But, I would expect others should be getting theirs today or tomorrow if several shipped out in one batch. If they don’t, then that will be odd, particularly too since this unit shipped incomplete, without its battery and unable to perform its primary function there-in (lucky for Frank’s testing, though!).

      • Zephir

        IMO Steorn already knew about problems with charging electronics inside the units, so that it sent one Orbo unit hacked with supercapacitor specially for Frank as a

        provisional

        measure.

        • Ged

          Hmm, that is certainly possible. Then claiming it was a mistake to just keep the real point of known battery problems hidden. What is odd, is how there is such difficulties with the Ocube, but the Ophone seems to be going out so far (maybe), and should be based on the same tech, as far as we know.

  • It’s absolutely strange that no one except Frank has received an orbo yet…
    Where are these 1000+ buyers??

    • Ged

      Actually, Frank got his pretty quickly for the mail system, based on when he got confirmation and when the post system contacted him for delivery. But, I would expect others should be getting theirs today or tomorrow if several shipped out in one batch. If they don’t, then that will be odd, particularly too since this unit shipped incomplete, without its battery and unable to perform its primary function there-in (lucky for Frank’s testing, though!).

      • Zephir

        IMO Steorn already knew about problems with charging electronics inside the units, so that it sent one Orbo unit hacked with supercapacitor specially for Frank as a provisional measure for to get at least one independent tester from publics.

        • Ged

          Hmm, that is certainly possible. Then claiming it was a mistake to just keep the real point of known battery problems hidden. What is odd, is how there is such difficulties with the Ocube, but the Ophone seems to be going out so far (maybe), and should be based on the same tech, as far as we know.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    My bs meter on Orbo has positively skyrocketed during these past couple days. What may seem like a “confident gesture” by sending Frank the first O-Cube–and the replacement which was supposed to ship imminently, of which we have heard nothing btw–could very well be a delaying tactic. I mean, suppose they don’t have what they claim. What do they do? Try to buy extra time for as long as possible with antics like these. They even superglued the lid, ffs.

    • Ged

      Frank’s the bloodhound on their scent, with the power of far too many bright minds here giving him good testing suggestions. It looks like they tried to throw us for a loop with the gluing, but that won’t stop progress for long. One way or the other, we will know the truth, soon.

      • SG

        They wouldn’t go to the trouble of sending the Ocube with a clever plan of gluing it to throw us all off. Simply doesn’t make any sense.

        • Ged

          I have seen far stranger things. But, this version of the cube was sent by mistake and probably never meant to be opened, so if it is glued, then it would be to throw people off on purpose from getting into this particular version.

    • mike wolf

      I don’t agree. They have gotten like 12 million they could have walked with. Now if they sell 1000 at 1200 which is about ten times less. Now they walk with the money? I don’t think so. Be patient. Remember we have thousands working on fusion for billions of dollars and we have nothing. But you expect the little guy to have it immediately. You are being bias at least, unreasonable at best.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Look, buddy. When you say you’ve got infinite energy and are bending space-time or something, that’s a mighty high claim. That is when you execute execute execute, not screw around like a bunch of hopeless losers. Pardon me for being extremely skeptical in such circumstances. I am still open to my mind being blown…

        • mike wolf

          Problem is that top minds are brainwashed and wouldn’t even consider an attempt. So we are left with normal minds that want to achieved the perceived unachievable. I think you should cut them a little slack. You don’t know it is infinite or able to bend space-time. This is why we get nowhere. People don’t want to doubt what they think they know. That has lead to a closed minded world. The open minded people are ostracized, ridiculed, and slandered. Pity.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            No, they’re not. I am not ostracizing anyone for being open-minded. I am getting annoyed by Orbo acting shady as s***. Just ship the product so it can be tested. They do not have the luxury of over-promise, under-deliver at this point.

          • SG

            They did.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Not the product that they were supposed to ship. There is no expectation for this thing to work, therefore conveniently no way for it to fail. And now we’re not getting the proper unit for “several days”, probably weeks.

  • Hans Moog

    It does not have a battery inside – only a 5f capacitor.

    1F = 1ampSeconds / Volt
    5F = 5ampSeconds / Volt

    Since the leds operate at 5 Volt that makes 1 seconds at 1 ampere. Since the leds consume about 0,3 ampere (1,5 watt) they could produce light for a maximum of 3 seconds no matter how long you let the unit charge. Since a capacitor also looses voltage when it discharges it might be way less time since the leds need a certain voltage to operate.

    So the facts that the leds only lights up for a short moment is by no means a proof that the technology does not work.

  • Frank, you might get some luck prying with an Exacto knife. Make sure you wear safety glasses.

  • Frank, you might get some luck prying with an Exacto knife. Make sure you wear safety glasses.

  • This is my first comment here. I’ve been following Steorn for many years also. It is inconceivable to me that after all of this time, knowing this is a very significant event, that Steorn would send out something like this. They appear to be “insane”. If I were you, I wouldn’t worry about the case. I think Steorn owes you a new outer case. If you want to get into it, I’d just use a drill, hacksaw and whatever to get the thing open. I wouldn’t worry about destroying the case. Is the case aluminum? If so, it should be easy to saw and drill through. Those people at Steorn sure have a way of irritating a lot of others! They don’t need a sexy chick selling their items and they don’t need Apple-like packaging. All they need to do is actually deliver what they keep promising!

    • SG

      Thanks for your comment. I’ve seen more new commenters here as a result of the recent Steorn events than I’ve seen in a long time. The more insights the better. That said, I’m not sure that Steorn ever guaranteed that opening the case would be easy. In fact, it is probably in their interests to make it hard. And as for appearing “insane,” I’ve always viewed them as more quirky than anything.

    • Zephir

      And what would you expect Frank with his zero equipment could find inside it? At the best case he will manage to open the unit somehow and during this he will accidentally destroy its electronics inside with some static discharge, so we will get nothing anyway. With his subliminal experience with electronic circuits he should rather focus to nondestructive measurements.

    • Pweet

      I say again,.. DON”T WRECK IT UNTIL IT’S BEEN TESTED TO THE FULL EXTENT POSSIBLE.
      Once it’s wrecked we will learn nothing else other than what sort of glue they used.
      That information is worth nothing.
      Everything we need to know about the recharge characteristics we can learn from the outside.

  • ecatworld

    I don’t think it was a case that they forgot to put the battery in. Seems like this unit was deliberately designed to work with a capacitor.

    • Hhiram

      Their “mistake” is incredibly suspect and discouraging. That said, I see no reason why ALL units should not have a 5F ultracapacitor to function, at least in part, as a trickle-charge voltage/flow regulator. We don’t yet have any idea how variable the power output of the actual electret/whatever is. Capacitors are designed to charge and discharge extremely quickly – “ultra” ones all the more so. Li-ion batteries are not.

      So the story of “the li-ion battery is missing” is plausible, even if HIGHLY suspect. I would fully expect your second O-Cube to contain both a 5F ultracap AND a li-ion battery.

      It also now sounds like they’re going to have to add additional components to regulate the power flow, since some units are generating excess voltage.

      I’m still extremely skeptical, given how shady the role out is. But I’m willing to abide by Hanlon’s Razor for now and chalk it up to incompetence rather than malicious scheming.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Too funny

  • snowvoardphil

    HACK SAW !!

    If you want to go the ”pull on it” way. You could use 5 minute epoxy (sold at the dollar store) and glue some handle on the back and front of the Orbo.

    The larger the glued surface area the better. But if steorn glued surface area is larger than yours, the epoxy or the handles will just break off.

    • mike wolf

      Frank, orbo told you it wasn’t glued, but if they used thread lock on the
      screws, that may be acting as a clue st the holes. So if you are going
      to use a hammer and chisel hehe, pry it at the area near the holes.

      • FC

        Frank,
        Do you have any lock-picking thief friends? You’d be amazed at the things that some guys can pry open.

        • Gryphon

          I think you are right that the red OCube is supposed to deliver 0.4W, however I was basing the 20mW on the estimates made by other commentators on here which were a result of the testing Frank had done so far with the LED array. If it were giving out 0.4W then it could charge a phone like mine (Galaxy S5) just under once per day, which would be quite acceptable. Sadly, if the initial estimates of between 10 and 50mW for this unit are true then it must be considered a failure.

          • mike wolf

            Frank have you tried the light? Has it lasted longer than a few seconds after sitting all night?

          • SG

            That is not a proper testing method. See comment by Hans Moog below. We really just need to get the cover off and measure at the terminals of the Orbo power pack itself.

          • But why not exhaust other possibilities first?

          • SG

            I’m not necessarily opposed to it. The problem is, however, that you have a capacitor in-between and it is evidently clear that most here do not understand basic operational behaviors of a capacitor. If you can take that out of the picture, and go directly to the power pack voltage source, then we can more quickly understand the characteristics of the Ocube.

            Hook a small resistor up to the terminals of the Orbo power pack and measure the current through the resistor. With that, we will know whether the power pack delivers the claimed 400 mW, some other value, or nothing.

          • Yes, you are probably right. As the case is probably going to be a write-off anyway I suppose its just a question of finding the least potentially destructive (to the power unit) means of removing the casing.

          • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

            Id probably have already taken a hacksaw to it.

          • Zephir

            It also requires some manual skillfulness and the feeling for strength used. The usage of Dremel rotary saw seems to be more safe for me.

          • Zephir

            The things may not be so simple, as the polarization from capacitor or lithium battery may be required for proper function of the Orbo powerpack. I’ve similar experience with it from captret testing – this device doesn’t generate power without sufficient external voltage. Which could mean, the powerpack may not be able to generate sufficient voltage by itself.

          • mike wolf

            Yes, but proper ended when Frank put the light on it I think. I was curious. But I agree with you. When Frank gets the fully prepared Orbo from Steorn. He should test it as Steorn intended it to be used. But I figured Frank had nothing to lose, and maybe we could find something out quicker than using it the way it was intended. That will take months I think.

            I think the anxiety got the best of Frank as it would have most of us. But we all felt the same about the light when Frank connected it. It wasn’t til the light wouldn’t work for more than a few seconds that we started to tell him to crack it open. I have no business having a say on the technical aspects of testing it. I am just excited to see something interesting going on.

          • ecatworld

            Right, I feel like there’s really nothing to lose. My main concern about breaking into the ocube is that I don’t want to break anything. Heating/freezing makes me a bit nervous for that reason. Same with taking a hammer and chisel to it. Steorn is encouraging me to get it open for testing purposes. So I just want to do that safely.

          • Omega Z

            Hey Frank-
            “Steorn is encouraging me to get it open for testing purposes.”

            Has Steorn given any indication as to why it wont open.

          • Sanjeev

            The lights remain on only for a second or two because its too much load for a partly charged 5F cap, IMHO.
            If the load is reduced to say, 2-3 leds, it may behave better.

          • ecatworld

            No, it still comes on for just a few seconds, and you have to wait for a while before the charge builds up enough voltage to light it again. Checking the USB port with my multimeter after the light has gone off shows a voltage of about 2.5 V. for a few minutes, then the voltage can go down to zero after a few minutes. This is manual testing and it’s hard to hold those pins in place for a long time.

            Waiting for some equipment to do Anon’s test suggestion. It should arrive today.

          • Zephir

            /* This is manual testing and it’s hard to hold those pins in place for a long time */

            While I appreciate your dedication, it’s more than evident, you’re amateur completely unequipped for the mission, which you collected money for. If you have some spare money, you should visit the electronic shop and buy some basic equipment for long term measurements of voltage and current from USB port.

            Anyway, the behavior of your unit is rather depressive and it doesn’t indicate, it could be able to charge some device like the mobile phone or even iPad. With such a results you even may not need any equipment at the end.

          • SG

            I’d say easy there Zephir. Frank is dedicating his time for the benefit of us all. He isn’t getting paid for this. Quite the contrary, he is putting himself out there in a very public manner like few would ever dare.

          • Zephir

            You also don’t pay for bridges, elevators and another public services – yet you expect some minimal quality from it. While I do appreciate the management of this forum and the whole site, the testing of Orbo is stuff of different category, which requires different attitude and qualification. The willingness and dedication of Frank cannot fully substitute his complete lack of quantitative attitude to Orbo testing so far.

          • SG

            I think these first couple of days have been more about getting a feel for it. The quantitative testing has now begun. We have lots of time to think up of all kinds of tests to run, and Frank seems to be very open to suggestions from the crowd.

          • ecatworld

            Ok the Ocube is plugged into the power meter now. The readings at the moment are:

            0.0478V
            0.0000A
            0mWh

          • SG

            Well, at 0 A detected, I think we can safely say that 1Kohm is too much resistance.

          • ecatworld

            Removed the 100 Ohm resistor and inserted a 10,000 Ohm resistor.
            Readings are 0.3888V, 0 Amps, 0 mWh

          • SG

            If you have a single LED, try inserting it into the same holes that you are inserting the resistor, and check to see if the LED produces light–even for a moment. I suspect that the circuit is not closed, or something. These readings make little sense.

          • Ged

            Does it still light up the USB lamp? Could be a circuit is failing to form as SG suggests, as surely something should be being detected by this if it can drive a 1.5 W lamp (if it still is able to do so).

            Glad you got this testing set up going, Frank!

          • ecatworld

            To answer your question, yes Ged, the LED lamp still lights up. I just put it in and it came on for about a second.

          • SG

            This seems to indicate that the meter setup is not forming a circuit given that every reading has shown 0 A.

          • ecatworld

            Testing the same meter setup with the USB cord plugged into a wall charger (instead of the ocube)

            These are the readings:

            100 Ohms 5.0214 V, 0.0526 A
            1000 Ohms 5.0385 V, 0.0063 A
            10,000 Ohms 5.0406 V, 0.000 A

          • Wishful Thinking Energy

            This implies to me that our test setup is working as we intended.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Can we not build a charge accumulator from the 5F capacitor – like it charge dumps into an accumulator and then switches off.

          • Paul Harmans

            If I had a miracle component generating free energy, for sure, I should glue that thing to
            bottom and top of the casing. Imagine what a Chinese company will do if they ordered an Ocube. The glue on both sides of the miracle component will tear it apart. So, be careful!

          • Adam

            My guess, if you ever open it up, is that it will contain a USB port & board, 5v voltage regulator/DC-DC, either a Cap or Li-ion cell. The orbo cell(s) won’t be in there, mysteriously not included due to some ‘production’ error.

            It’s clear it’s not recharging, and the result you’re seeing are just the affects of an empty electrochemical cell as described by @fritz194:disqus

            “We have shipped two ocubes and have received reports back that the
            lithium ion battery in the devices is charging to somewhere in the
            region of 8V”

            BS, so someone else managed to get the back off and measured the Li-ion????

            Please get that damn back off the thing soon. ta

          • So, to get this clear, Steorn have sent out two of three fake ‘O-cubes’, knowing that at least one will be dissected, exposing their scam, before completing their sales drive and then dropping the hammer on their mass of buyers by absconding to Panama with the money?

          • FC

            I think I remember Shaun McCarthy saying in one of his videos that the orbo power cells are manufactured in China.

          • SG

            Okay, good, so that rules out the open circuit theory. I think the problem is the capacitor. At 1K Ohm, the meter is not sensitive enough to pick up the ~ 48 microamps, and thus showing a current reading of zero. Even more so for the 10K Ohm resistor. Using the 100 Ohm resistor, the cap likely drained so quickly that you were not be able to get a good reading, thus showing a current reading of zero yet again. Seems like this is consistent with the LED bank lighting up for only about 1 second. A similar thing is likely happening with the 100 Ohm configuration–too fast for the meter to get a reading.

            This makes it all the more evident why Steorn are using batteries rather than capacitors, and also why Shaun is encouraging the removal of the lid to gain access to better measurement points.

            For those wondering why the LED bank only lights up for a second (or sometimes up to a few seconds), as previously pointed out below (with some light editing):

            1F = 1ampSeconds / Volt
            5F = 5ampSeconds / Volt

            Since the LEDs operate at 5 Volt that makes 1 seconds at 1 ampere. Since the LEDs consume about 0.3 ampere (1.5 watt) they could produce light for a maximum of 3 seconds no matter how long you let the unit charge. Since a capacitor also looses voltage when it discharges it might be way less time since the LEDs need a certain voltage to operate.

          • Blue Energy

            Wait – somethings odd about that. Didn’t Frank operate the light for quite some period of time when he first got it? Like… hours? How could that jive with a max run time of 3 seconds?

          • SG

            I don’t remember Frank reporting that. He was using a smaller LED bank at first, which could have run for longer. But the large LED bank that drew 1.5 W should only be able to run for max ~ 3 seconds because the cap will drain in that period of time.

          • Blue Energy

            Ah! Smaller LED earlier. That would account for it.

          • Sanjeev

            Craig Brown will receive an Ophone as a bonus from Steron in addition to the OCube, which will be delayed. They want to keep their customers happy.
            http://steornnews.com/every-ocube-has-a-silver-lining/

            So now in some days/weeks we will see a public testing of OPhone too. (Hopefully).

          • Sanjeev

            I guess the meter is not suitable for measurements in 0-10V and uA to mA ranges of voltage and currents.
            It says 0-50V and 0-5A. So I don’t think it is very reliable. I recommend normal Fluke multimeters.
            The usb meter you had is also not suitable, as it will draw a good amount of power itself (for its own circuits and display etc).

          • I think it’s quite likely that there may be intermediate circuitry such as a DC-DC voltage amplifier and/or a charge regulator of some sort between the electret group and the capacitor that is making readings taken at the USB port fairly meaningless. It’s even possible that such circuits (probably ICs) may have already been damaged by having a load repeatedly put directly on them without the protection of a buffering battery.

            Either way it may be time to resort to a Dremel and screwdriver to get to the ‘gubbins’.

          • georgehants

            Morning Peter, now your moving into my expertise, as a builder I can give advice on using a chisel and club hammer.
            But then as we where into retail TV, Hi-Fi sales and repairs for many years all this is very familier.
            We used to say when things where fiddly etc. that you need Japanese fingers.

          • Hi George. Been there, done that! One of my ‘between jobs’ enterprises was as a specialist designer and builder (listed building conservation) and I’ve spent the last few years building a three story extension in ‘period’ style (still not finished). I hesitate to take the back of anything electronic though – my ‘skills’ are definitely more suited to wielding hammer and chisel.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Maybe they connected two Li-ion batteries in series to reach a sufficient voltage. Otherwise, it might be difficult to charge a cell phone, I guess.

          • Sanjeev

            You may be right, the figure 8 is exactly twice of 4V – the nominal voltage of a LI battery. Can mean two small batteries.

          • Sanjeev

            The possibility of an intermediate circuit is there. Its best to ask Steorn how to test their “customized” device without opening it, as its now clear that they sent it just for the purpose of testing.
            (Its also clear that you can’t charge phones or tablets with this one, its not meant to do that)

          • Zephir

            Now you can see it yourself: your powermeter looks fancy, but it’s not sufficiently sensitive and as such suitable for measurement of currents lower than say 0.003A, i.e. 3 milliAmperes. It already interprets them as a zero… ๐Ÿ™

          • Sanjeev

            Your are right and that’s what I said above.
            We know that I=V/R, so at
            100 Ohms 5.0214 V, I should be = 0.05021 A
            1000 Ohms 5.0385 V, I = 0.00503 A
            10,000 Ohms 5.0406 V, I = 0.00050 A

          • Ged

            Thank you for checking, Frank. The adventure continues!

          • Zephir

            Which would just mean, it’s nearly completely discharged by now.. am I right?

          • ecatworld

            With a 100 Ohm resistor the reading is 0.000V, 0.000A, 0mWh

        • ecatworld

          I don’t run with that crowd ๐Ÿ™‚

          • FC

            Haha
            I’m sure you don’t, Frank.
            Just teasing you a bit to lighten things up. ๐Ÿ˜‰

          • ecatworld

            Ok, very little change with the 10,000 Ohm resistor testing (got up to .3895 V), so I am shutting off the tests for tonight as it’s getting late here.

  • snowvoardphil

    HACK SAW !!

    If you want to go the ”pull on it” way. You could use 5 minute epoxy (sold at the dollar store) and glue some handle on the back and front of the Orbo.

    The larger the glued surface area the better. But if steorn glued surface area is larger than yours, the epoxy or the handles will just break off.

  • Gerard McEk

    Frank, did you try to move a credit card (I suggest not yours) into the small gap, or is it too narrow?

    • mike wolf

      A piece of sheet metal like coil stock would work better. is can cut the glue better. But I thought he saiid Orbo told him there was no glue.

      • If the ‘guts’ of the device are potted directly into the casing, and the back was put on before it was completely cured then turned over, it could be stuck on by that. If so then probably the only way to remove it is by using a brief application of heat and simply prying it off with a small chisel or screwdriver hammered into the gap. Risky though.

  • Gerard McEk

    Frank, did you try to move a credit card (I suggest not yours) into the small gap, or is it too narrow?

    • mike wolf

      A piece of sheet metal like coil stock would work better. is can cut the glue better. But I thought he saiid Orbo told him there was no glue.

      • If the ‘guts’ of the device are potted directly into the casing, and the back was put on before it was completely cured then turned over, it could be stuck on by that. If so then probably the only way to remove it is by using a brief application of heat and simply prying it off with a small chisel or screwdriver hammered into the gap. Risky though.

  • mike wolf

    Frank, orbo told you it wasn’t glued, but if they used thread lock on the
    screws, that may be acting as a clue st the holes. So if you are going
    to use a hammer and chisel hehe, pry it at the area near the holes.

  • FC

    Frank,
    Do you have any lock-picking thief friends? You’d be amazed at the things that some guys can pry open.

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t run with that crowd ๐Ÿ™‚

      • FC

        Haha
        I’m sure you don’t, Frank.
        Just teasing you a bit to lighten things up. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • mike wolf

    I have another idea Frank. That top just has a hole for the usb port. If you cut a small piece of wood that size like 4-6 inches tall. put it in the top hole and turn it upside down and press the top downward towards the table. Could damage the usb but you can put a great deal of pressure that way.

  • mike wolf

    I have another idea Frank. That top just has a hole for the usb port. If you cut a small piece of wood that size like 4-6 inches tall. put it in the top hole and turn it upside down and press the top downward towards the table. Could damage the usb but you can put a great deal of pressure that way.

  • Bob Greenyer

    With all of the shocks and vibrations of you attempting to get into the ORBO, I would think it is charging quite quickly… Perhaps it is powered by frustration.

    • Ged

      Tapping into the vexation field emanated by humanity, the all new Grrcube will keep your annoyingly complicated devices powered and obstinate for ages!

      • Bob Greenyer

        haha

    • Timar

      Such a device would be ultimately self-limiting: free energy > less reason for frustration > less frustration-powered free energy

      • Bob Greenyer

        I think you mean self regulating – no charge…. more violent bashing, charge… leave it alone, rinse, repeat

    • Gryphon

      Should light up those LEDs like a Christmas tree then when Frank finally loses it and hurls the damn thing through a window!

      • Bob Greenyer

        Too funny

  • SG

    You have a misunderstanding about how capacitors work.

  • ecatworld

    Also posted on another thread. Someone sent me this email from Steorn:

    “Hello, firstly we would like to apologize for the delay to shipping your ocube. As we are sure you can appreciate, bringing the ocube to production has been a huge task for us all and we are grateful for your support.

    We have shipped two ocubes and have received reports back that the lithium ion battery in the devices is charging to somewhere in the region of 8V, which is well in excess of the safe level of 4.2V. As a result, we have had to halt any further shipments while we address this. We are currently testing a new configuration with a battery charge controller; these tests are expected to take another several days. Once we are satisfied that the units are operating as they should we will provide another update concerning shipping etc.

    We appreciate your patience and understanding while we work to resolve this issue.

    Best regards

    The Orbo Team”

    • Matt

      Like I said before. The old game is being played. Or as someone wrote in another forum, Lucy pulled the ball away from Charlie Brown, AGAIN.

    • FC

      Thank you, Frank.
      at last we get a plausible explanation for the delay. I’m glad to see that Steorn are starting to be open about their production problems and humbly asking for some patience. Now they can count on mine.

    • Private Citizen

      That 100% of units shipped overcharge the battery or have no battery at all does not say much for Streon’s quality assurance and/or possibly its engineering if the overcharging is a design defect.

      Either incompetence or deliberate deceit are the only explanations that come to mind. “Honest mistake” might be a kinder way of implying incompetence.

      Hard to conclude what’s going on here. Selling a few dozen bogus chargers and facing legal consequences from that does not make sense for any kind of fraud, neither does buying a little time with shenanigans like gluing on covers or shipping delays.

      • snowvoardphil

        I guess their strategy is to lure people into thinking they will get a product at some point.

        This could be done to get people that are on the fence of believing Vs not believing, to go ahead and order their unit because they now can see they will receive some actual physical object.

        Of course, once momentum of buyers would be built, they hope to reach a point where they could run with the money.

        To do this, you need a certain mass of credulous buyers and you can help them make the bad decision to invest, by showing off that :

        – you’ve got 300000ths facebook fans, your product was so popular that they got sold out in no time, the amount of orders was so overwhelming that manufacturing problems occurred, etc…

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Make no mistake, it was no accident that one unit was shipped to Frank, a very visible person in the alternative energy media. Moreover, it was no mistake that it was a ‘defective unit’. Why ship anything if it’s just a fraud, you ask? The point is to create plausible delays for as long as humanly possible while making everything look sort of legit and concrete at the same time, thus maximizing the number of orders. Eventually, the units will go out and operate for as long as a battery of the size of the Orbo would normally operate, which is to say, for some weeks. Then, they will take the money and run – or, maybe issue a recall with full refunds in order to avoid prosecution, hoping that not everyone will do it. It’s the reason why we have online rebates, after all.

      • Or, they could have hand assembled a few in a hurry to get out to highly visible people like Admin, without testing the system thoroughly, and now find themselves with an embarrassing delay and a lot of work – especially if they need to get the backs off a few they’ve already assembled.

        When it comes down to it, surprisingly few entities in the known universe are engaged in elaborate multi-year ponzi scams.

        • ecatworld

          I pity those guys who have to get the backs off!

        • Gryphon

          Hopefully that Pharma fella isn’t on the board of Steorn

        • _Jim

          “Or, they could have hand assembled a few in a hurry to get out to highly visible people …”

          IN WHICH CASE they are highly incompetent. Highly. Incompetent.

          I have agree w/others on this, this looks to be a scam. OR Steom has NO idea what he/they are doing …

          • BillH

            Try validating the CE certificate here, I found no reference to Steorn on it’s own:-

            http://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/our-services/certification/certificate-and-client-directory/

          • LukeDC

            That won’t work. Steorn are in the republic. That will only get you companies located in Britain and the Northern Ireland.

          • BillH

            It should work the CE certification is EU wide, this is only the UK portal. It’s there to verify an EU CE mark, not just a UK-CE mark. As SG says above you can self-certify, however you still have to register before you can legally use the CE mark. No register, no likey.

          • SG

            Manufacturers can self-certify the CE mark. They must retain the self-certification certificate and produce it if required by an authority, but need not “register” it elsewhere.

          • There’s a world of difference between fraud and amateurishness. Steorn seem to be a small group of inventors and engineers, trying to launch at least three products simultaneously (orbo charger, orbo phone, hephaheat) and getting their knickers in a twist in the process.

    • Sanjeev

      Not encouraging at all. This can take a lot of time.
      Fortunately you have one to experiment with. The one with battery will be delayed I guess.

      Once again, there is no need to open it at this time. It can be tested as it is. See my post below. Opening it forcefully can damage it, and in that case, you will need to wait for a long time to start on another one. (only if they do not cancel all shipments due to “technical and safety reasons”)

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If it is true that they received feedback about the voltage it would seem that other tests are currently underway.

  • Frank Acland

    Also posted on another thread. Someone sent me this email from Steorn:

    “Hello, firstly we would like to apologize for the delay to shipping your ocube. As we are sure you can appreciate, bringing the ocube to production has been a huge task for us all and we are grateful for your support.

    We have shipped two ocubes and have received reports back that the lithium ion battery in the devices is charging to somewhere in the region of 8V, which is well in excess of the safe level of 4.2V. As a result, we have had to halt any further shipments while we address this. We are currently testing a new configuration with a battery charge controller; these tests are expected to take another several days. Once we are satisfied that the units are operating as they should we will provide another update concerning shipping etc.

    We appreciate your patience and understanding while we work to resolve this issue.

    Best regards

    The Orbo Team”

    • Matt

      Like I said before. The old game is being played. Or as someone wrote in another forum, Lucy pulled the ball away from Charlie Brown, AGAIN.

    • FC

      Thank you, Frank.
      at last we get a plausible explanation for the delay. I’m glad to see that Steorn are starting to be open about their production problems and humbly asking for some patience. Now they can count on mine.

    • Hasn’t “insanity” been defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? They’ve had months and months to test and verify their designs. There is no legitimate excuse for their behavior. We may all see them going to jail in the not-to-distant future. It’s probably what they deserve.

      • SG

        We’ve waited 10+ years. Another few weeks or months isn’t going to matter much.

        • Sooner or later they need to put up or shut up. There is no end to their delaying tactics. We’ve witnessed 10 years of them. We could see another 10 years of them. Somebody needs to force them to be accountable otherwise this thing could continue on indefinitely. Isn’t 10 years long enough?

    • Private Citizen

      That 100% of units shipped overcharge the battery or have no battery at all does not say much for Streon’s quality assurance and/or possibly its engineering if the overcharging is a design defect.

      Either incompetence or deliberate deceit are the only explanations that come to mind. “Honest mistake” might be a kinder way of implying incompetence.

      Hard to conclude what’s going on here. Selling a few dozen bogus chargers and facing legal consequences from that does not make sense for any kind of fraud, neither does buying a little time with shenanigans like gluing on covers or shipping delays.

      • snowvoardphil

        I guess their strategy is to lure people into thinking they will get a product at some point.

        This could be done to get people that are on the fence of believing Vs not believing, to go ahead and order their unit because they now can see they will receive some actual physical object.

        Of course, once momentum of buyers would be built, they hope to reach a point where they could run with the money.

        To do this, you need a certain mass of credulous buyers and you can help them make the bad decision to invest, by showing off that :

        – you’ve got 300000ths facebook fans, your product was so popular that they got sold out in no time, the amount of orders was so overwhelming that manufacturing problems occurred, etc…

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Make no mistake, it was no accident that out of the few units one was shipped to Frank, a very visible person in the alternative energy media. Moreover, it was no mistake that it was a ‘defective unit’. Why ship anything if it’s just a fraud, you ask? The point is to create plausible delays for as long as humanly possible while making everything look sort of legit and concrete, thus maximizing the number of orders. Eventually, the units will go out and operate for as long as a battery of the size of the Orbo would normally operate, which is to say, for some weeks. Then, they will take the money and run – or, maybe issue a recall with full refunds in order to avoid prosecution, hoping that not everyone will do it. It’s the reason why we have online rebates, after all.

      • Or, they could have hand assembled a few in a hurry to get out to highly visible people like Admin, without testing the system thoroughly, and now find themselves with an embarrassing delay and a lot of work – especially if they need to get the backs off a few they’ve already assembled.

        When it comes down to it, surprisingly few entities in the known universe are engaged in elaborate multi-year ponzi scams. In any case, don’t forget that Steorn are also in the process of marketing their ‘Hephaheat’ water heater – a straightforward business enterprise that will probably net some good money that they are not going to endanger with fraudulent schemes.

        • Frank Acland

          I pity those guys who have to get the backs off!

          • E-gatto

            Obviously in addition to the torx-bolts they secured the lid with extra strong glue. This doesn’t make sense, does it?

          • Frank Acland

            I don’t think it’s glued to the case . I can feel and see some vertical movement when i squeeze it.

          • Mike

            Tried a can opener?

        • Gryphon

          Hopefully that Pharma fella isn’t on the board of Steorn

        • _Jim

          “Or, they could have hand assembled a few in a hurry to get out to highly visible people …”

          IN WHICH CASE they are highly incompetent. Highly. Incompetent.

          I have agree w/others on this, this looks to be a scam. OR Steom has NO idea what he/they are doing …

          • There’s a world of difference between fraud and amateurishness. Steorn seem to be a small group of inventors and engineers, trying to launch at least three products simultaneously (orbo charger, orbo phone, hephaheat) and getting their knickers in a twist in the process.

    • Sanjeev

      Not encouraging at all. This can take a lot of time.
      Fortunately you have one to experiment with. The one with battery will be delayed I guess.

      Once again, there is no need to open it at this time. It can be tested as it is. See my post below. Opening it forcefully can damage it, and in that case, you will need to wait for a long time to start on another one. (only if they do not cancel all shipments due to “technical and safety reasons”)

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If it is true that they received feedback about the voltage it would seem that other tests are currently underway.

    • Pweet

      I’m amazed there isn’t an overvoltage protection included in the charge circuit for the lithium battery. That is a major oversight on anything to do with lithium battery charging.
      For the very low power involved, a simple zener diode across the charge circuit would do the job at minimal expense.

  • Obvious

    FWIW,
    My main go-to method for opening manufactured items that were not meant to be opened is putting them in a freezer for several hours, then slamming them flattest side down sharply onto a counter or work bench. This breaks most glues and sonic plastic welds at the seams, and pops epoxied items from their enclosures without much extra damage.

    • ecatworld

      Steorn told me to try using “mild aggression” — maybe that counts!

      • Zephir

        That cover is apparently very robust and prepared for next nuclear war, when only perspective technologies will survive. I’d recommend to cut off the cover completely with Dremel circular tool without usage of any excessive force.

        https://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/CategoryProducts.aspx?catid=2013

        • Obvious

          A heat gun or hair dryer might expand the cover just enough also.

          • Zephir

            Yep, I also considered it.

            But the massive aluminum cover provides only little opportunity for localized heating. Once you’ll melt the electret wax inside the powerpack, then the whole device could be destroyed for ever.

          • Obvious

            I’m just offering some more tools from the toolbox.

            Personally, I wouldn’t attempt to open it until I tested it quite a bit.
            Then, once it is opened, whether the opening procedure damaged it in some way could be better assessed.
            It it doesn’t work after opening, the opening procedure will be blamed almost certainly as the cause for that unless it can be shown otherwise.

          • And soften the potting compound if the cover is stuck to that. It would need to be a brief application though, to avoid potential damage to the potted components (hair dryer, rather than paint stripper gun).

      • Pweet

        And they’re Irish so that would certainly begin with bad language. Have you tried that?
        You have? oh,.. righteo then.

        • fritz194

          I assume it was “dead” on arrival; LiPo fitted, but Electret disconnected due to “dead” charger circuit.

          • SG

            This is unlikely given that it lights up a bank of LEDs for an expected period of time (until the 5F cap completes its discharge). Then, wait a little while, and it can be done again. So either:
            1) There is a standard battery behind the cap that is re-charging the cap; or
            2) There is an Orbo power back behind the cap that is re-charging the cap

          • fritz194

            This behaviour is quite normal for an electrochemical cell (primary or secondary).
            If a battery/accumulator is almost empty – you can drain certain charge until the internal resistance goes up – empty. After some time internal resistance recovers and you can drain almost the same charge again… this is not OU – just draining charge which is not available in “normal” operation.

          • fritz194

            The 5F cap might be in parallel with the LiPo – to maintain a low source resistance for deep discharge. There is the need for a DC/DC regulator to provide the 5V USB from the 3.2-4.2V from the LiPo. A cap in parallel might help to keep the DC//DC converter operating – approaching 3V.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Or perhaps

            3) There is an electronic switch that interrupts the connection for a while if parameters are not in a predefined range.

  • Obvious

    FWIW,
    My main go-to method for opening manufactured items that were not meant to be opened is putting them in a freezer for several hours, then slamming them flattest side down sharply onto a counter or work bench. This breaks most glues and sonic plastic welds at the seams, and pops epoxied items from their enclosures without much extra damage.

    • Frank Acland

      Steorn told me to try using “mild aggression” — maybe that counts!

      • Zephir

        That cover is apparently very robust and prepared for next nuclear war, when only perspective technologies will survive. I’d recommend to cut off the cover completely with Dremel circular tool without usage of any excessive force.

        https://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/CategoryProducts.aspx?catid=2013

        • Obvious

          A heat gun or hair dryer might expand the cover just enough also.

          • Zephir

            Yep, I also considered it…

            But the massive aluminum cover provides only little opportunity for localized heating. Once you’ll melt the electret wax inside the powerpack, then the whole device could be destroyed for ever (or maybe not and Steorn could answer it – it would give us an important clue about his actual production technology).

            This is also intrinsic aspect of most of overunity devices: they utilize fringe effects and forces, so that they’re sensitive to range of working conditions. They essentially represent an extension of time-reversible quantum effects, which usually exist at low temperatures only. If these technologies would be robust enough to survive the fire, we would already found them and utilize them.

          • Obvious

            I’m just offering some more tools from the toolbox.

            Personally, I wouldn’t attempt to open it until I tested it quite a bit.
            Then, once it is opened, whether the opening procedure damaged it in some way could be better assessed.
            If it doesn’t work after opening, the opening procedure will be blamed almost certainly as the cause for that unless it can be shown otherwise.

          • And might also soften the surface of the potting compound if the cover is stuck to that. It would need to be a brief application though, to avoid potential damage to the potted components (hair dryer, rather than paint stripper gun).

        • Good idea in my opinion.

      • Pweet

        And they’re Irish so that would certainly begin with bad language. Have you tried that?
        You have? oh,.. righteo then.

  • Private Citizen

    There are some very inexpensive endoscopes on the web (some less than $20). Perhaps a local mechanic or home inspector might have one. Wouldn’t take much of a hole to insert an endoscope and get pics of the interior.

  • Gryphon

    Frank, can you estimate the thickness of the base by looking at screw holes and the interface between the two halves? If so could you use a hacksaw/dremel to cut around the main part of the case a similar distance from the bottom. At least that way you know you are breaching the case where it meets the base and are less likely to chop through anything important.

    • Frank Acland

      It’s about 5mm thick

      • Gryphon

        Another option might be to carefully drill a hole (or several) through the side just above where the base is and see if you can lever it open by applying some force on the base from the inside. Perhaps you could fit a reasonably sturdy L shaped tool such as an allen key (is it called a hex key in the US?) through the hole to provide the leverage.

        • Frank Acland

          Thanks, it might come down to that.

          • damn_right _man

            Suction still not tried?

          • NCY

            just take a hacksaw and cut about 4mm from the base all around the outside.

          • Zephir

            Be prepared that metallic dust and sawdust could destroy the electronic circuit inside the unit at the case of short circuit or it may adversely affect the performance of unit later.

        • Tester

          Are you crazy?

          you want to drill a hole?

          You have to saw the case off. This is the only way to make sure you are not damaging the internal parts.

          • Gryphon

            I would probably use a hand drill and be careful ensure the bit didn’t intrude any further into the case once it had gone through, but I don’t think it would be any more damaging than sawing the base off. If you could get a few holes it may even be possible to illuminate the inside and have a peek at what might be preventing it from coming apart.

  • snowvoardphil

    Just a question like that: As anybody found reference to steorn in an official business directory of Irland ?

    In Quebec, you can look up, on a government web site, any business and see what their legal standing, place of operation, owner, pending legal issues, are.

  • Matt

    I am wondering how they got the CE sign for this apparently faulty device. CE means that they have a declaration of conformity with EU safety regulations. This declaration is either from an external lab that checked the device or they checked it themselves (which is legal). It looks like they just printed CE on the label without having done safety tests. That would certainly be illegal.

  • SG

    We’ve waited 10+ years. Another few weeks or months isn’t going to matter much.

    • Sooner or later they need to put up or shut up. There is no end to their delaying tactics. We’ve witnessed 10 years of them. We could see another 10 years of them. Somebody needs to force them to be accountable otherwise this thing could continue on indefinitely. Isn’t 10 years long enough?

  • mike wolf

    Frank have you tried the light? Has it lasted longer than a few seconds after sitting all night?

    • SG

      That is not a proper testing method. See comment by Hans Moog below. We really just need to get the cover off and measure at the terminals of the Orbo power pack itself.

      • But why not exhaust other possibilities first?

        • SG

          I’m not necessarily opposed to it. The problem is, however, that you have a capacitor in-between and it is evidently clear that most here (and on other forums following this event) do not understand basic operational behaviors of a capacitor. If you can take that out of the picture, and go directly to the power pack voltage source, then we can more quickly understand the characteristics of the Ocube.

          Hook a small resistor up to the terminals of the Orbo power pack and measure the current through the resistor. With that, we will know whether the power pack delivers the claimed 400 mW, some other value, or nothing.

          • Yes, you are probably right.

            As the case is probably going to be a write-off anyway I suppose its just a question of finding the least potentially destructive (to the power unit) means of removing it. There seems to be no shortage of suggestions, but ‘dremel-based’ solutions may cut to the chase, if only to provide an opening for a screwdriver blade or other lever to prise the casing apart.

          • NCY

            Id probably have already taken a hacksaw to it.

          • Zephir

            It also requires some manual skillfulness and the feeling of manual force used. Don’t forget, the case of Orbo is very robust with thick walls from milled aluminium block – it’s not made of moulded sheet. The usage of Dremel rotary saw seems to be more safe for me, but the interior of unit must be carefully cleaned from metallic sawdust for not to short its circuits.

          • Zephir

            The things may not be so simple, as the polarization from capacitor or lithium battery may be required for proper function of the Orbo powerpack. I’ve similar experience with it from captret testing – this device doesn’t generate power without sufficient external voltage. Which could mean, the powerpack may not be able to generate sufficient voltage by itself.

      • mike wolf

        Yes, but proper ended when Frank put the light on it I think. I was curious. But I agree with you. When Frank gets the fully prepared Orbo from Steorn. He should test it as Steorn intended it to be used. But I figured Frank had nothing to lose, and maybe we could find something out quicker than using it the way it was intended. That will take months I think.

        I think the anxiety got the best of Frank as it would have most of us. But we all felt the same about the light when Frank connected it. It wasn’t til the light wouldn’t work for more than a few seconds that we started to tell him to crack it open. I have no business having a say on the technical aspects of testing it. I am just excited to see something interesting going on.

        • Frank Acland

          Right, I feel like there’s really nothing to lose. My main concern about breaking into the ocube is that I don’t want to break anything. Heating/freezing makes me a bit nervous for that reason. Same with taking a hammer and chisel to it. Steorn is encouraging me to get it open for testing purposes. So I just want to do that safely.

          • Dieter_G

            The small gap is really annoying. The bottom plate and the skull-shaped hull are both chamfered (at least from what I see) and the remaining gap is next to nothing. You need to get deeper into the gap with your lever I think.
            Maybe you can bend the “skull-hull” a bit to the outside at one place.

          • Omega Z

            Hey Frank-
            “Steorn is encouraging me to get it open for testing purposes.”

            Has Steorn given any indication as to why it wont open.

        • Sanjeev

          The lights remain on only for a second or two because its too much load for a partly charged 5F cap, IMHO.
          If the load is reduced to say, 2-3 leds, it may behave better.

    • Frank Acland

      No, it still comes on for just a few seconds, and you have to wait for a while before the charge builds up enough voltage to light it again. Checking the USB port with my multimeter after the light has gone off shows a voltage of about 2.5 V. for a few minutes, then the voltage can go down to zero after a few minutes. This is manual testing and it’s hard to hold those pins in place for a long time.

      Waiting for some equipment to do Anon’s test suggestion. It should arrive today.

      • Zephir

        /* This is manual testing and it’s hard to hold those pins in place for a long time */

        While I appreciate your dedication, it’s more than evident, you’re amateur completely unequipped for the mission, which you collected money for. If you have some spare money, you should visit the electronic shop and buy some basic equipment for long term measurements of voltage and current from USB port. You’ll need spare male USB cables, some rezistors, wires, crocodile clips, maybe some breadboard or even better soldering station.

        /* Checking the USB port with my multimeter after the light has gone off shows a voltage of about 2.5 V. for a few minutes, then the voltage can go down to zero after a few minutes */

        Don’t forget, the Orbo powerpack is undersized for the 1.5 W LED lamp you’re using – the LED just drains the supercapacitor too quickly with current about 300 mA (not including the USB stick used for measurement) – while the powerpack can hardly produce 80 mA, which gives on/of ratio 1:4 only. If anything, at least try to measure the time intervals with some precision, as I’m getting increasingly nervous from your qualitative attitude to testing (WTF “few minutes” is supposed to mean? It’s just another denomination for wasted time).

        • SG

          I’d say easy there Zephir. Frank is dedicating his time for the benefit of us all. He isn’t getting paid for this. Quite the contrary, he is putting himself out there in a very public manner like few would ever dare.

          • Zephir

            You also don’t pay for bridges, elevators and another public services – yet you expect some minimal quality from it. While I do appreciate the management of this forum and the whole site (which fulfills such a quality well), the testing of Orbo is stuff of different category, which requires different attitude and qualification. The willingness and dedication of Frank cannot fully substitute his complete lack of quantitative attitude to Orbo testing so far. Dedicated or not, he obtained the Orbo unprepared for any rigorous testing of it, despite he had few months for preparation of public tests.

          • SG

            I think these first couple of days have been more about getting a feel for it. The quantitative testing has now begun. We have lots of time to think up of all kinds of tests to run, and Frank seems to be very open to suggestions from the crowd.

  • Patrik Wiksten

    I am troubled by three things in this thread.

    1. The “thing” about being the first who dared to judge this as bullshit.
    2. The focus on how to open the bastard.
    3. The CE discussion.

    I have full and complete understanding of the anxious approach toward this thing. It is a “ballsy” claim as Shaun put it. But, what the **** are you peeps doing???

    Where’s the “Wow, this is fucking interesting” – discussion? Where’s the “Wow this is radical” – discussion?

    Calm the **** down… This will be a test over several months. There is no need to speculate. These tests will definitely prove if this is “Wow” or “Scam”.

    Did I say “Calm the **** down”?

    Let this thread be a thread with positive, constructive and out of the box thinking, thinking, until Frank has proven this as Bullshit or Batman. Always try to be Batman. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • There does seem to be a minor storm of negativity, but some of the contributors concerned have ‘form’ in this respect, and others may be just trolls.

    • mike wolf

      Amen.

    • Zephir

      It’s not secret for me, that the worlds of free energy and mainstream physics are sharply divided socially: just the people, who understand the electronics well usually have not any doubts about impossibility of overunity. So what you can find at overunity forums are merely layman amateurs – well, and our Frank is just the king, who is their leader.

      • Blue Energy

        It’s too bad you didn’t buy one yourself, Zephir. Then you could have accomplished the investigation *exactly* the way you wanted to – and we wouldn’t have to listen to you moan and complain. But… you didn’t. Lesson learned for next time for you.

        • Nah, he’s not interested in “wasting money”. just sitting around on a comfy chair and telling everyone they’re “doing it wrong”.

        • Zephir

          I already ordered the OrboPhone, where the ratio of price per utility value appears more advantageous for me. Once it will arrive (if ever), I’m prepared to make public measurements with it powerpack separately.

          • Blue Energy

            That’s very good. I hope that you will report on it here when you get it, rather than just keeping it to yourself (although, like you, I have some question as to whether it will arrive…). We’ll be happy to give you our opinions on what you should be doing with it. If you’re fortunate, and our mob personality doesn’t overwhelm us, we won’t belabor it too much if we think you’re doing it all wrong.

  • Patrik Wiksten

    I am troubled by three things in this thread.

    1. The “thing” about being the first who dared to judge this as bullshit.
    2. The focus on how to open the bastard.
    3. The CE discussion.

    I have full and complete understanding of the anxious approach toward this thing. It is a “ballsy” claim as Shaun put it. But, what the **** are you peeps doing???

    Where’s the “Wow, this is ****ing interesting” – discussion? Where’s the “Wow this is radical” – discussion?

    Calm the **** down… This will be a test over several months. There is no need to speculate. These tests will definitely prove if this is “Wow” or “Scam”.

    Did I say “Calm the **** down”?

    Let this thread be a thread with positive, constructive and out of the box thinking, thinking, until Frank has proven this as Bullshit or Batman. Always try to be Batman. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • There does seem to be a minor storm of negativity, but some of the contributors concerned have ‘form’ in this respect, and others may have just had a bad day.

    • mike wolf

      Amen.

    • Zephir

      It’s not secret for me, that the worlds of free energy and mainstream physics are sharply divided socially: just the people, who understand the electronics well usually have not any doubts about impossibility of overunity. So what you can find at overunity forums are merely layman amateurs – well, and our Frank is just the king, who is their leader.

      • Blue Energy

        It’s too bad you didn’t buy one yourself, Zephir. Then you could have accomplished the investigation *exactly* the way you wanted to – and we wouldn’t have to listen to you moan and complain. But… you didn’t. Lesson learned for next time for you.

        • Nah, he’s not interested in “wasting money”. just sitting around on a comfy chair and telling everyone they’re “doing it wrong”.

          But, you know what’s really interesting about Zephir? He wrote this post on the 6th of February 2016

          “As usually, the Russian did come into first for to remain completely forgotten later. On February 12, 1980 on MOIP physics section at Moscow State University (MSU) Zajev N. E. made the message about cooling of some dielectrics the changing field with energy generation.
          http://www.tet.in.ua/index.php/en/electret-batery/project

          and now that I went in to click on that comment and congratulate him on the nice thing he wrote and ask him how he found it – HE HAS DELETED THE COMMENT ALTOGETHER. So here it is for posterity.

          Did anyone check the URL he posted?

        • Zephir

          I already ordered the OrboPhone, where the ratio of price per utility value appears more advantageous for me. Once it will arrive (if ever), I’m prepared to make public measurements with it powerpack separately.

          • Blue Energy

            That’s very good. I hope that you will report on it here when you get it, rather than just keeping it to yourself (although, like you, I have some question as to whether it will arrive…). We’ll be happy to give you our opinions on what you should be doing with it. If you’re fortunate, and our mob personality doesn’t overwhelm us, we won’t belabor it too much if we think you’re doing it all wrong.

  • snowvoardphil

    Why would we calm down ? Frank as given 1300$ to these people and he still doesn’t have a charging thing yet. There is nothing ”wow this is ****ing interesting” to see or to discuss here, there’s noting radicale to see nether.

    I think Batman would be going at it with a hacksaw or a dremel tool. The dremel would be ideal but if it takes 3 days to get it, it’s 3 more days without any insight about the technology.

    • Patrik Wiksten

      Tell me, why are you here?

      • mike wolf

        Yea baby. If all you got is criticism, Go and create something to change the world and see how you like being trolled. Bravo Pat.

        • snowvoardphil

          Geeee guys I didnt mean to offend anybody. I dont think I’m being a troll I j’d just like to see this thing unravel.

          I’m here to try and learn the truth about this thing. Up to now all science has thought us in past history still stands and to me thats a case against this orbo machine working as claimed.

          Of course Frank can do what he wants with it. I’m just trying to point out we could have this thing unravel faster. And go on with it.

    • SG

      If you didn’t help contribute to the purchase of Frank’s Ocube, then there is really no basis for expressing outrage. You have not been harmed in any way. Even those of us who did contribute, acting in an un-calm manner will not make things move any faster. Testing takes time–particularly when one is testing a thing as mysterious as the Ocube in one’s spare time. Patience.

      • NCY

        when delivery has been botched this badly, I thing everyone is entitled to a little outrage.

  • OM

    Do not heat or cool the device.
    Simple insert some suitable tool into the screw hole (for about 4mm) and use it as lever to deform the cover.

    • mike wolf

      yes, very good idea. The tool has to be smaller than the screw hole to allow it to bottom out giving you the leverage needed. and since it will bottom out against the metal, a lot of forc could be exerted without damage. You could even use the same gauge screws, but longer so they can bottom out and stick out from the device. flip it over onto the screw heads and push down on the top cover.

  • snowvoardphil

    Frank, if you partially screw back the 3 screws, do you feel like the screws tap in the front cover or the back cover. The taps in the screw holes seem to suggest that the screws hold on the front cover, and that the screw head holds the back cover in place.

    Do you think there is any remote possibility you could get your hands on some tapping tools

    Any mechanic’s shop could get you access to such tools. I you could tap the aluminium of the back cover (in the crew holes) and then partially screw back oversize screws in these taped holes, you could get better pulling power on the back cover.

    • mike wolf

      No man, the studs are on the top cover. You can see them in the Steorn video.

      • Bob Greenyer

        I think he is saying to tap the back cover and use oversize screws there

        • mike wolf

          It isn’t a cover bob. It is the exact shape as the top. but the bottom is a little smaller to fit inside the upper part. So really the top is the cover. The back is the insert. If he wants to tap the back or bottom then he doesn’t understand how it is put together. The studs that the screws anchor to are on the top piece.

        • mike wolf

          Sorry bob, looking at it more closely it does seem to have a plate for the bottom piece. It should fall right out unless it is glued. I guess we will see when he does get it apart.

  • Patrik Wiksten

    Tell me, why are you here?

    • mike wolf

      Yea baby. If all you got is criticism, Go and create something to change the world and see how you like being trolled. Bravo Pat.

  • ecatworld

    I don’t think it’s glued to the case . I can feel and see some vertical movement when i squeeze it.

  • mike wolf

    No man, the studs are on the top cover. You can see them in the Steorn video.

    • Bob Greenyer

      I think he is saying to tap the back cover and use oversize screws there

      • mike wolf

        It isn’t a cover bob. It is the exact shape as the top. but the bottom is a little smaller to fit inside the upper part. So really the top is the cover. The back is the insert. If he wants to tap the back or bottom then he doesn’t understand how it is put together. The studs that the screws anchor to are on the top piece.

      • mike wolf

        Sorry bob, looking at it more closely it does seem to have a plate for the bottom piece. It should fall right out unless it is glued. I guess we will see when he does get it apart.

  • mike wolf

    yes, very good idea. The tool has to be smaller than the screw hole to allow it to bottom out giving you the leverage needed. and since it will bottom out against the metal, a lot of forc could be exerted without damage. You could even use the same gauge screws, but longer so they can bottom out and stick out from the device. flip it over onto the screw heads and push down on the top cover.

  • The dielectric relaxation happens within seconds after the load is removed. On the video, there was no charge/light achieved after the 22 seconds between disconnect and reconnect. Recharging happened later. And, remember, there is no battery so no rebound of discharged battery either. – But we do not know what is inside and this is all speculation.

  • How about using a lot of double sided tape on the bottom of the device and attaching it on the table or something? Then you will be free to pull the cover up as hard as you can. – Just a thought.

  • How about using a lot of double sided tape on the bottom of the device and attaching it on the table or something? Then you will be free to pull the cover up as hard as you can. – Just a thought.

    • Matt

      That only would work if the tape sticks stronger to the table than the goo inside to the back cover.

      • Absolutely. And we do not know if it has been glued or not.

  • SG

    If you didn’t help contribute to the purchase of Frank’s Ocube, then there is really is no basis for expressing outrage. You have not been harmed in any way. Even those of us who did contribute, acting in an un-calm manner will not make things move any faster. Testing takes time–particularly when one is testing a thing as mysterious as the Ocube. Patience.

    • Sanjeev

      Michael Ferrier, an Ocube customer, thinks something strange is going on at Steorn.
      http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/02/new-delay-for-ocube-shipments/
      And I think he is right. There is no way to charge an LI battery to 8V except if some very gross mistakes were made during the design and manufacturing. Or the matter is something else entirely.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Looks as if the output depends on the environment. Perhaps they did not test their device at different locations. That might be an option for Frank, too.

        • Mats002

          He can always go to the local pub ^^

          • Bob Greenyer

            That should loosen things up!

      • damn_right _man

        For sure. Let us wait. Later on they will say, all ocubes were sabotated because of those minicams which were found in their office

        • Gryphon

          I would probably use a hand drill and be careful ensure the bit didn’t intrude any further into the case once it had gone through, but I don’t think it would be any more damaging than sawing the base off. If you could get a few holes it may even be possible to illuminate the inside and have a peek at what might be preventing it from coming apart.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        If that device collects somehow energy from the ambient, it would be logical that the output could vary when you change the location.

    • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

      when delivery has been botched this badly, I thing everyone is entitled to a little outrage.

      • ecatworld

        Ok moving now to 100 ohms resistance. When I took the 1k resistor out, the voltage jumped up to over 5 volts, and now has dropped to 1.7081 V (no new resistor in yet)

  • Sanjeev

    Michael Ferrier, an Ocube customer, thinks something strange is going on at Steorn.
    http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/02/new-delay-for-ocube-shipments/
    And I think he is right. There is no way to charge an LI battery to 8V except if some very gross mistakes were made during the design and manufacturing. Or the matter is something else entirely.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Looks as if the output depends on the environment. Perhaps they did not test their device at different locations. That might be an option for Frank, too.

      • Mats002

        He can always go to the local pub ^^

        • Bob Greenyer

          That should loosen things up!

      • damn_right _man

        Are You kidding us?

        • Andreas Moraitis

          If that device collects somehow energy from the ambient, it would be logical that the output could vary when you change the location.

    • damn_right _man

      For sure. Let us wait. Later on they will say, all ocubes were sabotated because of those minicams which were found in their office

    • BillH

      Having read the link, only two Ocubes have been sent out and both have the same design problem? What were they doing, take one Ocube to the post office at a time? In the meantime put pressure on Steorn to provide you with a specification and/or a manual, ask them to forward it to you in .PDF format without delay. Also, Frank could try to confirm the validity of the CE sticker, if there is some sort of serial
      number product code on the sticker this shouldn’t be too difficult.

  • Absolutely. And we do not know if it has been glued or not.

  • OM

    Is it possible, that there is one more screw under the stickers?

  • ecatworld

    Tapping the Ocube. The chin feels very solid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rsfrto2bbo

    • damn_right _man

      Embarrasing.

    • That’s probably where the ‘potted’ electret group is located then, so any more ‘aggressive’ attempts to open the case should probably be directed at the ‘top’ end. Confirm by resting the unit on a pencil located halfway between the top and bottom ends to find the centre of gravity?

  • Frank Acland

    Tapping the Ocube. The chin feels very solid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rsfrto2bbo

    • Tester

      Try to remove the CE sticker there could be another screw below it.

      • Frank Acland

        No there is no screw under it.

    • Tester

      The internal parts could also be connected to the upper part of the case via the USB connector.

    • damn_right _man

      Embarrasing.

    • Tester

      I suppose the potting material lets lower and upper part of the case stick together -> dremel / sawing?

    • OM

      Probably, something like that:
      http://img.picshare.at/1455141766_Untitled1.png

      Alternatively, the internal components are glued to both sides of the box.

    • That’s probably where the ‘potted’ electret group is located then, so any more ‘aggressive’ attempts to open the case should probably be directed at the ‘top’ end. Confirm by resting the unit on a pencil located halfway between the top and bottom ends to find the centre of gravity?

  • ecatworld

    No there is no screw under it.

  • Gray Squirrel

    Do not plug in the LEDs until after the voltage at the USB port has reached 5 volts measured with the DVM only! No matter how long it takes, just keep waiting. Let us now how the voltage is rising as a function of time.

    • Pweet

      I think the voltage will remain on zero until there is 5 volts available to connect to the output. Internal circuitry will keep the output switched off until there is 5 volts available.

      It’s also possible the internal circuitry might not switch on the output until a significant load is detected. A 1000 ohm resistor might not be a sufficient load to do this in which case the voltage will remain on zero indefinitely. 1000 ohms will only load it to 5 ma and is way below it’s stated capacity.
      I would start with a 100 ohm resistor. This is sufficiently low to present a load to the circuit without being too great a load to kill it.

  • Everyone at Steorn is probably reading this blog and having a good laugh.

  • Jim

    Suction cup??

  • BillH

    Try validating the CE certificate here, I found no reference to Steorn on it’s own:-

    http://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/our-services/certification/certificate-and-client-directory/

    • LukeDC

      That won’t work. Steorn are in the republic. That will only get you companies located in Britain and the Northern Ireland.

      • BillH

        It should work the CE certification is EU wide, this is only the UK portal. It’s there to verify an EU CE mark, not just a UK-CE mark. As SG says above you can self-certify, however you still have to register before you can legally use the CE mark. No register, no likey.

    • SG

      Manufacturers can self-certify the CE mark. They must retain the self-certification certificate and produce it if required by an authority, but need not “register” it elsewhere.

  • I would suggest placing a gold coin near the Orbo with lights out, when the leprecauns open the lid from the inside to go out to snatch the gold quick take the lid away.

  • I would suggest placing a gold coin near the Orbo with lights out, when the leprecauns open the lid from the inside to go out to snatch the gold quick take the lid away.

  • ecatworld

    Ok I’m getting set up to run the first formal non-destructive test of the ocube. It will run all night and through tomorrow, starting in about half an hour. Details will be posted above soon

  • Frank Acland

    Ok I’m getting set up to run the first formal non-destructive test of the ocube. It will run all night and through tomorrow, starting in about half an hour. Details will be posted above soon

  • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

    Fuck for something that the makers knew people would want to open, they tried to make it as hard as possible didn’t they.

  • NCY

    Fuck for something that the makers knew people would want to open, they tried to make it as hard as possible didn’t they.

  • Frank Acland

    Ok the Ocube is plugged into the power meter now. The readings at the moment are:

    0.0478V
    0.0000A
    0mWh

    • SG

      Well, at 0 A detected, I think we can safely say that 1Kohm is too much resistance. The current with this resistor and measured voltage is going to be on the order of 47 to 48 microamps, which appears to be less than the sensitivity of the meter (the meter appears to have a milliamp granularity).

      Seems strange, though, that measured voltage is so low. Does it happen to be increasing with time?

    • Zephir

      Which would just mean, it’s nearly completely discharged by now.. am I right?

  • Frank Acland

    Ok moving now to 100 ohms resistance. When I took the 1k resistor out, the voltage jumped up to over 5 volts, and now has dropped to 1.7081 V (no new resistor in yet)

  • Frank Acland

    With a 100 Ohm resistor the reading is 0.000V, 0.000A, 0mWh

  • Frank Acland

    Removed the 100 Ohm resistor and inserted a 10,000 Ohm resistor.
    Readings are 0.3888V, 0 Amps, 0 mWh

    • SG

      If you have a single LED, try inserting it into the same holes that you are inserting the resistor, and check to see if the LED produces light–even for a moment. I suspect that the circuit is not closed, or something. These readings make little sense.

    • Ged

      Does it still light up the USB lamp? Could be a circuit is failing to form as SG suggests, as surely something should be being detected by this if it can drive a 1.5 W lamp (if it still is able to do so).

      Glad you got this testing set up going, Frank!

      • Frank Acland

        To answer your question, yes Ged, the LED lamp still lights up. I just put it in and it came on for about a second.

        • SG

          This seems to indicate that the meter setup is not forming a circuit given that every reading has shown 0 A.

          • Frank Acland

            Testing the same meter setup with the USB cord plugged into a wall charger (instead of the ocube)

            These are the readings for the resistors used in the test:

            100 Ohms 5.0214 V, 0.0526 A
            1000 Ohms 5.0385 V, 0.0063 A
            10,000 Ohms 5.0406 V, 0.000 A

          • Wishful Thinking Energy

            This implies to me that our test setup is working as we intended.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Can we not build a charge accumulator from the 5F capacitor – like it charge dumps into an accumulator and then switches off.

          • SG

            Okay, good, so that rules out the open circuit theory. I think the problem is the capacitor. At 1K Ohm, the meter is not sensitive enough to pick up the ~ 48 microamps, and thus showing a current reading of zero. Even more so for the 10K Ohm resistor. Using the 100 Ohm resistor, the cap likely drained so quickly that you were not able to get a good reading, thus showing a current reading of zero yet again. Seems like this is consistent with the LED bank lighting up for only about 1 second. A similar thing is likely happening with the 100 Ohm configuration–too fast for the meter to get a reading.

            This makes it all the more evident why Steorn are using batteries rather than capacitors, and also why Shaun is encouraging the removal of the lid to gain access to better measurement points.

            For those wondering why the LED bank only lights up for a second (or sometimes up to a few seconds), as previously pointed out below (with some light editing):

            1F = 1ampSeconds / Volt
            5F = 5ampSeconds / Volt

            Since the LEDs operate at 5 Volt that makes 1 second at 1 ampere. Since the LEDs consume about 0.3 ampere (1.5 watt) they could produce light for a maximum of 3 seconds no matter how long you let the unit charge. Since a capacitor also loses voltage when it discharges it might be way less time since the LEDs need a certain voltage to operate.

          • Blue Energy

            Wait – somethings odd about that. Didn’t Frank operate the light for quite some period of time when he first got it? Like… hours? How could that jive with a max run time of 3 seconds?

          • SG

            I don’t remember Frank reporting that. He was using a smaller LED bank at first, which could have run for longer. But the large LED bank that drew 1.5 W should only be able to run for max ~ 3 seconds because the cap will drain in that period of time.

          • Blue Energy

            Ah! Smaller LED earlier. That would account for it.

          • DrD

            YES. makes sense.
            AND, I wonder if Frank’s was also charged up to an overvoltage when first received? Like the two mentioned by Steorn.
            I also wonder if that mysterious generator needs to build up to a few volts before it starts to generate in ernest.
            Also — it might need to be close to some power source.

          • Blue Energy

            Purportedly, at least, there is no battery in the one Frank got. Those other two supposedly had batteries to overcharge. But, I think it’s interesting that when Frank allows the capacitor to build a charge overnight – he doesn’t end up with anything like the two hours of run time at .75 W that he got when he first plugged it in. It took, roughly, a week to ship it to him. Presuming that it was mostly uncharged before it was sent, it would seem to have charged at a much higher rate while it was traveling than it has while sitting on Frank’s table. Maybe the source of the power Orbo taps into is distributed evenly in space and moving through it causes a greater accumulation and conversion into electric charge. Essentially – Orbo runs on jet lag. You heard it here first! ๐Ÿ˜‰

          • Zephir

            Now you can see it yourself: your powermeter looks fancy, but it’s not sufficiently sensitive and as such suitable for measurement of currents lower than say 0.003A, i.e. 3 milliAmperes. It already interprets them as a zero… ๐Ÿ™

          • Sanjeev

            Your are right and that’s what I said above.
            We know that I=V/R, so at
            100 Ohms 5.0214 V, I should be = 0.05021 A
            1000 Ohms 5.0385 V, I = 0.00503 A
            10,000 Ohms 5.0406 V, I = 0.00050 A

        • Ged

          Thank you for checking, Frank. The adventure continues!

  • Frank Acland

    Ok, very little change with the 10,000 Ohm resistor testing (got up to .3895 V), so I am shutting off the tests for tonight as it’s getting late here.

  • Pweet

    Just looking at the picture posted above with the resistor sticking out of the USB plug,
    The outer housing of the usb plugs is usually conductive metal. If the resistor legs are touching that, then the output will be shorted out. i.e. an effective load of 0 ohms. Thus no output to measure.
    Can you get a lead with a usb socket from an electronics shop so you can cut it back and connect to the pair of wires with the power in them?
    Either that or make sure the inside of the metal usb plug is insulated with some sticky tape, all the way to the base of the connector. But a usb socket with wires attached would be far better.

    • ecatworld

      I know the picture is not great, but the resistors were not in a USB plug. The plug used had screw-down terminals suitable for testing with resistors.

  • Pweet

    Just looking at the picture posted above with the resistor sticking out of the USB plug,
    The outer housing of the usb plugs is usually conductive metal. If the resistor legs are touching that, then the output will be shorted out. i.e. an effective load of 0 ohms. Thus no output to measure.
    Can you get a lead with a usb socket from an electronics shop so you can cut it back and connect to the pair of wires with the power in them?
    Either that or make sure the inside of the metal usb plug is insulated with some sticky tape, all the way to the base of the connector. But a usb socket with wires attached would be far better.

    • Frank Acland

      I know the picture is not great, but the resistors were not in a USB plug. The plug used had screw-down terminals suitable for testing with resistors.

      • Pweet

        Oh,. yes,.. I see that now. Sorry.
        Next idea posted above.

  • Gray Squirrel

    The internal resistance of the tester may still be to low. Use a normal high input impedance DVM to monitor the voltage until it rises to and stays at 5 volts before using the tester.

  • builditnow

    Frank, sometimes something very thin, finger nail thickness, run around the joint can start to create some separation. There might be small plastic catches that could release if the outer case is separated out repeatedly. Once you get the gap started, you can go up to a larger item like a butter knife or other blunt knife that is just a bit thicker than the initial gap.

    Best if your opening device has some length to it and a gentle taper to a fairly sharp point.
    Screwdrivers are usually too blunt and taper too quickly.

    What will we find inside?

  • builditnow

    Frank, sometimes something very thin, finger nail thickness, run around the joint can start to create some separation. There might be small plastic catches that could release if the outer case is separated out repeatedly. Once you get the gap started, you can go up to a larger item like a butter knife or other blunt knife that is just a bit thicker than the initial gap.

    Best if your opening device has some length to it and a gentle taper to a fairly sharp point.
    Screwdrivers are usually too blunt and taper too quickly.

    What will we find inside?

  • fritz194

    I assume it was “dead” on arrival; LiPo fitted, but Electret disconnected due to “dead” charger circuit.

    • SG

      This is unlikely given that it lights up a bank of LEDs for an expected period of time (until the 5F cap completes its discharge). Then, wait a little while, and it can be done again. So either:
      1) There is a standard battery behind the cap that is re-charging the cap; or
      2) There is an Orbo power back behind the cap that is re-charging the cap

      • fritz194

        This behaviour is quite normal for an electrochemical cell (primary or secondary).
        If a battery/accumulator is almost empty – you can drain certain charge until the internal resistance goes up – empty. After some time internal resistance recovers and you can drain almost the same charge again… this is not OU – just draining charge which is not available in “normal” operation.

        • fritz194

          The 5F cap might be in parallel with the LiPo – to maintain a low source resistance for deep discharge. There is the need for a DC/DC regulator to provide the 5V USB from the 3.2-4.2V from the LiPo. A cap in parallel might help to keep the DC//DC converter operating – approaching 3V.

          • damn_right _man

            Frank still did not answer my question about the sucking cup. He still did not respond to use two components glue to open the device. He finally should do something to open it.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Or perhaps

        3) There is an electronic switch that interrupts the connection for a while if parameters are not in a predefined range.

  • Tester

    Frank, if your meter is able to measure energy (Wh) not just momentaneous power, how about
    the following unambigous test:

    Choose a resistor that is small enough (smaller than internal resistance of capacitor) and then just
    let the meter measure until (maybe) the measured energy is so large that there can’t be
    any known type of energy storage device inside.

    problem with measuring momentaneous power is you can’t sit there all night and watch the meter, we have to log the power curve and integrate it to see energy.

  • Sanjeev

    Craig Brown will receive an Ophone as a bonus from Steron in addition to the OCube, which will be delayed. They want to keep their customers happy.
    http://steornnews.com/every-ocube-has-a-silver-lining/

    So now in some days/weeks we will see a public testing of OPhone too. (Hopefully).

  • Tester

    E.g. a if the whole device would weigh 2 kg, then you can say even if there was a Li ion accumulator inside and it would be the total 2kg, then there can’t be more energy stored inside than 2kg * 100 Wh/kg = 200 Wh.

    Thus the test mentioned below should definitely be conclusive after a couple of weeks or even days.

    • DrD

      I make it 16,393 hours (about 2 years) at the currrent chargedischarge rate of 12.2mW — as measured and calculated by Seppo yesterday.
      Also we need to know why it’s 12.2 and not ~400mW.
      Even if were 400mW it’s still a long time to wait, (~3weeks).
      I think we need a faster answer.

  • Sanjeev

    I guess the meter is not suitable for measurements in 0-10V and uA to mA ranges of voltage and currents.
    It says 0-50V and 0-5A. So I don’t think it is very reliable. I recommend normal Fluke multimeters.
    The usb meter you had is also not suitable, as it will draw a good amount of power itself (for its own circuits and display etc).

    Edit: Probably you need to disconnect the resistors and just let it charge up, which should be visible as rising voltage. Once it reaches 5V or whatever, you can drain it and watch the mWh reading.
    Repeat…..
    It will be a loooong test.

    • From the behaviour it seems likely that there may be intermediate circuitry such as a DC-DC voltage amplifier and/or a charge regulator of some sort between the electret group and the capacitor that is making readings taken at the USB port fairly meaningless. It’s possible that such circuits (probably ICs) may have already been damaged by having a load repeatedly put directly on them without the protection of a buffering battery.

      Either way it may be time to resort to a Dremel and screwdriver to get to the ‘gubbins’, or perhaps just aralditing handles of some kind onto the front and back, and pulling them apart might work.

      Something like this maybe, with the rear of the backplate filed or sanded first to remove the paint:

      http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/5X0AAOxy4-5Rsg5q/s-l225.jpg

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter, now your moving into my expertise, as a builder I can give advice on using a chisel and club hammer.
        But then as we where into retail TV, Hi-Fi sales and repairs for many years all this is very familier.
        We used to say when things where fiddly etc. that you need Japanese fingers.

        • Hi George. Been there, done that! One of my ‘between jobs’ enterprises 30 years ago was as a specialist designer and builder (listed building conservation) and I’ve spent the last few years building a three story extension in ‘period’ style (still not finished). I hesitate to take the back off anything electronic though – my ‘skills’ are definitely more suited to wielding hammer and chisel.

      • Sanjeev

        The possibility of an intermediate circuit is there. Its best to ask Steorn how to test their “customized” device without opening it, as its now clear that they sent it just for the purpose of testing.
        (Its also clear that you can’t charge phones or tablets with this one, its not meant to do that)

  • DNI

    Your Ocube deliver 0,000015W with a 10 000 ohm load (V*V/R) and 0,000002W with a 1 000 ohm load. I hope your not in a hurry to charge your mobile ๐Ÿ™‚

  • DrD

    The BIG question:- How can you get 8V across a Li-ion battery?
    This is pure speculation:-
    1) The battery became disconnected and what is seen is the output from the (almost) open circuit generator/charger circuit. However, this should be what Frank has and isn’t what he measures but was it what he might have measured before that initial long discharge?
    OR
    2) The generator (what ever it is) was generating a huge over current, so great that the internal resistance of the battery produced the excess voltage. Maybe the generator captured energy from nearby sources and the unit(s) in question just happened to be closer to some source that was more than Steorn had expected? This might be good news, in the long term. Or perhaps not. That is it might generate lots of power in some locations, none in others.
    Personally I find it hard to believe either theory but what else is there?

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Maybe they connected two Li-ion batteries in series to reach a sufficient voltage. Otherwise, it might be difficult to charge a cell phone, I guess.

      • Sanjeev

        You may be right, the figure 8 is exactly twice of 4V – the nominal voltage of a LI battery. Can mean two small batteries.

  • Michael Ferrier

    Maybe a paintless dent repair kit (that uses removable glue to apply force when pulling) would be useful for removing the lid? Eg. “Ding Magic” or “Dent Out”, both available on Amazon. Many stores carry them too. Tricky part would be holding the body secure while pulling on the lid. Maybe stand on two boards, spaced just right, that are resting on cinder blocks, with the ocube underneath?

  • If I had a miracle component generating free energy, for sure, I should glue that thing to
    bottom and top of the casing. Imagine what a Chinese company will do if they ordered an Ocube. The glue on both sides of the miracle component will tear it apart. So, be careful!

    • FC

      I think I remember Shaun McCarthy saying in one of his videos that the orbo power cells are manufactured in China.

  • Adam

    My guess, if you ever open it up, is that it will contain a USB port & board, 5v voltage regulator/DC-DC, either a Cap or Li-ion cell. The orbo cell(s) won’t be in there, mysteriously not included due to some ‘production’ error.

    It’s clear it’s not recharging, and the result you’re seeing are just the affects of an empty electrochemical cell as described by @fritz194:disqus

    “We have shipped two ocubes and have received reports back that the
    lithium ion battery in the devices is charging to somewhere in the
    region of 8V”

    BS, so someone else managed to get the back off and measured the Li-ion????

    Please get that damn back off the thing soon. ta

  • Rob King

    Frank, if you can load the cell with a 100 ohm resistor and measure the current with the small USB power meter that is able to show the lower current readings then this should suffice as a test. Should give you a current of 50mA (5V) and 0.25 watt load.
    If the Orbo cannot maintain 0.25 watts output then something is wrong somewhere.
    Therefore it would be better to take the power directly from the orbo battery to avoid circuit in between.

    Your test PCB and Osram LED lamp is on its way to you, this should allow you vary the load:
    0.38 watts, 0.34 watts and 0.29 watts.

    It might be that people need to buy their own li-ion battery locally and inserted it into the case.

    I suspect the original design includes a charge controller but may be incorrectly configured for 2 cells instead of 1 cell.

    Getting the back off might mean using a bit more force – tapping a larger thread into the 4 lid screw holes, sinking 4 bolts down to just before the main case holes through block of plastic with a handle and pull it apart.

    Or use some kitchen knives/spudgers and lever it open.

    I think a Ultra capacitor is only useful if the DC-DC boost circuit that provides the 5v output is able to drain the 5F cap down to almost zero voltage.

    At the moment I suspect it shuts off at 3.3V to protect the li-ion battery that is mean to be there instead.

  • Guru Khalsa

    Hi Frank about opening the Orbo, if those holes in the back go all the way through you can get some long screws of the same thickness and thread count as the originals so that they screw the back of the front plate forward.

    • Guru Khalsa

      OK thats not going to work. Try taking a steel wood screw and if you get one the right size you might be able to jam it into the back plate without catching the screw housing and pull.

      • Yes, I like that. A ‘self tapping’ (PK) screw would be much better. Two could be used to attach a drilled steel bar as a lever.

    • Pweet

      Even if you open it up you wont see anything. Anything of any technical value will be potted in resin or silicon and would need to be destroyed to see inside it.
      I think it’s the potting resin which has glued it shut. They probably put a bit much in it either on purpose or by mistake.
      My advice is still not to open it. It wont get you anywhere. Maybe in a months time if all else has failed you can have a grand opening ceremony like opening king tuts tomb.

      • ecatworld

        Thanks, Pweet. This is my thinking. This version of the O-Cube is obviously no good as a charger or for powering any kind of USB device. With the output so limited, as we have seen, I think the best benefit for people interested in getting to the bottom of what this technology is, is to open it up. Steorn says inside the cube there are built in ports for testing purposes which they say can provide useful information. Even if everything else is potted, the ports should be accessible, providing Steorn is not making that up. So that is my goal. I have an appointment to see someone this evening to look at the cube, who should have the tools and hopefully know-how to get the lid off.

        • FC

          Good luck, Frank!

        • ecatworld

          When I first opened it up, I was trying it out. I would say I had it running LEDS for about 2 hours continuously. I wasn’t even thinking of doing a formal test at that time, or keeping track of time, since I was just trying it out to get a feel of what it was capable. However, it was not able to charge any mobile devices via USB for any period of time at all. They would start to charge, then the charge sign went off after about 1 second.

          • Dieter_G

            Ah, ok.
            Well, 2h is a lot of time. Even if it was only 1 hour, that rules a supercap out. Such a capacitor wouldn’t fit into it.

            The behavior of the mobile devices can be explained (as a possibility) by them drawing too much power. They surely won’t be satisfied by 300mA, like the LED-Light

          • Sanjeev

            2 hours of on time surely does not compute.

          • Blue Energy

            Frank, when you say, “…I had it running LEDS for about 2 hours continuously…”, which LEDs were those? Do we know what they draw?

          • ecatworld

            Hold on, I’ll do a quick video and show you.

          • ecatworld

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OucEOPZI81Y

            I used them both when I first tried out the cube, approximately equal amounts of time. BTW the 2 hours is a guess based on my memory, I just wasn’t timing the runs.

          • Sanjeev

            It consumes about half of the big ones, 0.75W.
            It should light up for more time if you connect them to Ocube.

          • Blue Energy

            Well… even if your time estimation were off by quite a lot – I just don’t see how the capacitor in question could have powered it. There must be something else in the circuit capable of storing power.

        • It could be that Steorn sent out those units just to see how difficult it would be for recipients to open the case.

          • ecatworld

            Here’s a theory, based on what Shaun McCarthy told me. He said that the Orbo pack itself has its own capacitance (in addition to the 5F cap) — as a byproduct of what it is, not the main effect. If it is indeed a self-charging technology, that capacitance could have been building up for a long time (maybe months) until I discharged it all when I first was using the cube.

          • Sanjeev

            You are assuming here that the source that is charging the 5F cap is always at 5V. You really don’t know the voltage of the source when connected to a cap, which is discharging into a load.
            Remember that the “orbo core” electret had an open circuit voltage of 5V. Open circuit is the key word.
            Its all my opinion anyway, I’d let the detailed tests speak before I conclude anything solid.

          • txt29

            The voltage does not matter for the ratio, just for the discharge/recharge time. If you only discharge it to certain voltage, the less you then need to recharge it again. In other words the shorter the discharge, the faster the recharge. The ratio between the times of discharge by 1.5W and recharge by 0.4 will always be ~1:4, regardless of the voltage range, or the capacity.

          • DrD

            Yes, I agree, I also wondered about that but it’s not obvious how that extra capacitance could provide so much extra discharge time. It could be that they charged it before shipping, maybe when it had the battery inside. OR did it pass through an energetic charging field in transit. Lots of idea’s, few answers I fear.

          • ecatworld

            BTW, I did get a weight for this unit: 1101g

          • ecatworld

            Size:

            The circumference is 420 mm.
            From the top of the skull to the bottom of the chin is 144 mm.
            From ear to ear is 118 mm.
            Depth is 39 mm.
            Thickness of top casing is 3 mm.

          • FC

            Thank you very much for the weight and dimensions, Frank.

            The volume seems to be in the order of 0.5 liters, give or take.

            By weight, the maximum energy capacity that we could expect (if the ocube was just a battery) is around 300 Wh.

            By volume, the maximum energy capacity that we could expect (if the ocube was just a battery) is around 400 Wh.

          • DrD

            Nice. AND, given that Franks supposedly has a missing battery which means the complete unit would weigh more, then 400 is just possible. So it would take along time to prove it’s not a battery by wating for it to discharge at the low rate Franks observing, A tear down would answer it much faster. I’d be amazed if it is just a big battery.

          • FC

            I totally agree.

            On the other hand, for a fully operational ocube, it would take in the order of 40 smartphone recharges (maybe a month?) to rule out the battery hypothesis.

            Luckily, we mey get an answer this very evening.

        • Zephir

          If you have a bench vise, you could glue the Orbo Cube between its jaws with epoxid glue and try to open it by turning screw to left (i.e. by pulling instead of pressure). This could be the most gentle way

          http://www.irwin.com/uploads/products/large/bench-vises-1052.jpg

  • Guru Khalsa

    Hi Frank about opening the Orbo, if those holes in the back go all the way through you can get some long screws of the same thickness and thread count as the originals so that they screw the back of the front plate forward.

    • Guru Khalsa

      OK thats not going to work. Try taking a steel wood screw and if you get one the right size you might be able to jam it into the back plate without catching the screw housing and pull.

      • Yes, I like that. A ‘self tapping’ (PK) screw would be much better. Two could be used to attach a drilled steel bar as a lever.

    • Pweet

      Even if you open it up you wont see anything. Anything of any technical value will be potted in resin or silicon and would need to be destroyed to see inside it.
      I think it’s the potting resin which has glued it shut. They probably put a bit much in it either on purpose or by mistake.
      My advice is still not to open it. It wont get you anywhere. Maybe in a months time if all else has failed you can have a grand opening ceremony like opening king tuts tomb.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks, Pweet. This is my thinking. This version of the O-Cube is obviously no good as a charger or for powering any kind of USB device. With the output so limited, as we have seen, I think the best benefit for people interested in getting to the bottom of what this technology is, is to open it up. Steorn says inside the cube there are built in ports for testing purposes which they say can provide useful information. Even if everything else is potted, the ports should be accessible, providing Steorn is not making that up. So that is my goal. I have an appointment to see someone this evening to look at the cube, who should have the tools and hopefully know-how to get the lid off.

  • Stephen

    If the screws are long and going through the device somewhat, I wonder if screwing in the screws again only partially not completely allows you to remove the lid by pulling on them?

    or if rotating or sliding the backplate slightly is possible?

    What ever amazing things are inside, Steorn have designed an amazingly tamperproof box. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    it seems strange to have the screws there if it’s clipped in or glued in place and not removable even with out them.

    Are there any pictures on line of the assembly? perhaps there are some clues there too.

  • ecatworld

    Short video from this morning posted above.

    • FC

      Good stuff, Frank.
      I tried pausing the video when you plug the LED lamp into the ocube in order to read the usb meter and it seems to give very similar voltage and amperage readings to the wall charger.

      • FC

        4.97 V vs 4.52 V
        0.37 A vs 0.32 A

        • Sanjeev

          Good detective work. I can barely see anything, too blurry. Frank should do another video of discharging, this time ensuring that the meter is in focus.

        • Ged

          USB ports usually have a current regulator to keep them around 4.5-5V. This is not always the case! I have personally seen USB connectors that aren’t regulated like a class B, leading to very different behavior. At any rate, it looks like the USB port on the Orbo is the regulated sort (like the wall charger) which means it just won’t pass an active current for anything under 4 V, which makes sense of those results you posted.

          • SG

            I think this explains why the resistor tests were showing zero ampere–even for the 100 ohm test. Once the cap discharges below 4 V (which would happen quickly as the voltage drop curve is exponential on discharge of a capacitor), the USB PCB likely stops passing current. I think you nailed it Ged.

    • Pweet

      How long was the orbo left off load before inserting the lamp in the above video?
      The ‘on load’ time still looks to be between 1 and 2 seconds, and that’s the same time we got in the earlier video when it was left off load for only 2 minutes.

      • ecatworld

        That was after leaving it overnight.

        • ecatworld

          About a 1/2 hour later I did another test and it flashed on for a shorter period of time — not enough time for the Volts and Amps to register on the meter.

          • Pweet

            All indications are now that the small apparent recharge is more a function of the capacitor reforming after discharge, rather than it actually being recharged by an external circuit.
            Whether a lithium battery is installed or not should not affect whether the unit actually recharges. It will only affect the length of time it takes to come to the conclusion the thing is not recharging itself, due to the fact that a fully charged lithium battery will take a long time to discharge at the low power output available from the device.
            That’s a bit disappointing.
            Oh well,.. back to the tv. I wonder what’s on?

        • Pweet

          Dear oh dear,.. that’s not a good sign.
          If there was any recharging happening the level of recharge should be proportional to time off load, and that has not happened.
          Since it was off load all night it looks like that is not the case.

          I think that pretty much seals it. It does not recharge or at least, not to any usable level.
          You can cancel all my previous advice on tests because if there is no recharge then all tests will all arrive at a dead end. Sorry.

          • SG

            > If there was any recharging happening the level of recharge should be proportional to time off load

            That statement is incorrect.

            1F = 1ampSeconds / Volt
            5F = 5ampSeconds / Volt

            Since the LEDs operate at 5 Volt that makes 1 second at 1 ampere. Since the LEDs consume about 0.3 ampere (1.5 watt) they could produce light for a maximum of 3 seconds no matter how long you let the unit charge. Since a capacitor also loses voltage when it discharges it might be way less time since the LEDs need a certain voltage to operate.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            (5 As/V * (5V)^2) = 62.5 Ws. That would theoretically allow 41.67 seconds of operation at 1.5 W, but it could be less if the voltage would drop below a critical threshold.

            However, these figures cannot explain why the LED worked initially for 1-2 hours.

          • Ged

            Those were smaller leds, not the 1.5W lamp apparently.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Should read “(5 As/V * (5V)^2)/2”

          • SG

            And even then, this doesn’t tell us much because the operating voltage drops exponentially on discharge of the capacitor. One cannot assume that the operating voltage remains at 5V.

          • Sanjeev

            You have no idea how a capacitor works ๐Ÿ™‚
            You can’t charge it more than its capacity even if you keep it for a year.
            It seems it gets charged in few minutes to its max.

          • ecatworld

            Which may give some credence to Shaun’s statement that the Orbo pack itself has capacitance.

          • Sanjeev

            I’m really puzzled, to be honest. LEDs lighting for 2 hours on internal charge of the “orbo core” is mysterious. It must have a HUGE capacitance, like 1000F or something. Can someone calculate please?

          • Sanjeev

            Oh, I remember now, you said those were tiny LEDs, not this LED table lamp.
            So I may be mistaken here.
            Can you try those tiny ones again?

          • Andreas Moraitis

            The โ€tiny onesโ€ are rated at 0.8 W, which is still twice as much as allowed. It might be that the LEDs have been powered by the Orbo chip for a while until the latter got damaged due to the overload.

          • Sanjeev

            I remember that SM demonstrated shorting out of the orbo electret, to show how the voltage jumps back to its original value. So I guess overloading or even shorting it won’t damage it.

          • Guy Mann
          • Pweet

            2 hours run time on a load of 0.75 watts (the small led) would require a capacitance of 732 farads, discharging from 5 to 3.2 volts.
            I don’t think it would fit in the available space. It would require two cells because the maximum voltage per cell for ultracaps is only 2.7 volts ( I think,.. without checking.)
            Or,.. a lithium battery with a 500mahr capacity.
            Or, a 1000mahr lithium battery would run the small 0.75 watt led for about 5 hours.

            From the fence I’m sitting on I see what looks like an embedded lithium battery even though it is reported there isn’t one.
            The problem then becomes, why isn’t it recharging.?
            The answer could be, that it isn’t the rechargeable type.
            (Or, there is a current shortage of dark energy at the moment.)

            Actually, to be more precise, from the fence I’m sitting on I see a tin of worms.
            Most assumptions are ending in indeterminate and/or inconsistent conclusions which are not really being backed up by what we see.

          • As you might expect from an electret-type device, although this would normally be a relatively small value.

          • Pweet

            As it happens, I do have a little knowledge on how capacitors work, and also of their discharge characteristics. I completely agree that once the capacitor is full you can’t add in any more.
            The energy available for each discharge cycle can be calculated as the energy in the capacitor at full charge voltage minus the energy left in the cap at the discharge switch off point. The problem here is that we do not seem to be getting the energy out consistent with the stated size of the capacitor, which is 5 farads.
            Lets look at a few figures.
            We don’t know what voltage the circuit drains the capacitor to before it switches off but we can make an educated guess on the basis of what would be a safe level so as not to damage a lithium battery if one was fitted. That would be around 3.2 volts.
            So, without boring you with the calculations,
            Energy in a 5F cap at 5 volts is 62.5 joules.
            Energy in a 5F cap at 3.2 volts is 25.6 joules.
            That means we have 36.9 joules to use to light up a .75 watt led for the small led and double that for the bigger led lamp.
            36.9 joules would equate to a power drain of 1 watt for 36.9 seconds.
            or .75 watts for 50 seconds. (small led)
            or 1.5 watts for 25 seconds. ( led reading lamp)

            From the video we are not seeing that or anything like that. After a 1 hour recharge it runs a .75 watt load for 4 seconds.
            Even if we take more conservative figures of say a 4 volt discharge switch off point the figures are still way off the mark.
            For 36.9 joules of energy to consumed in 4 seconds it would require a load of 9 watts. We have a load of .75 watts.
            Explanations are,
            1/. we do not have 36.9 Joules of energy there. or
            2/. the USB dongle consumes the difference of more than 8 watts.
            Option 2 is highly unlikely.

            These figures assume the cap was fully charged to 5 volts.
            You would expect if it was left overnight it would be, or even after a few hours it would be. If it’s not then the recharge rate is very much in deficit of what is claimed.
            In any case, for the low load placed on the device, there should be some correlation between the run time of the load and the charge time in between running it.
            From what I can see there is none, and that cannot be explained by saying the capacitor is being fully charged and can’t take any more energy. If it was, the small led should run for around 50 seconds and clearly it does not. It’s more than an order of magnitude short.

            I will again say, and have previously mentioned, the almost constant 5 volts at the output of the orbo would be achieved through the use of a small switchmode supply inside the unit.
            The output of the orbo is not directly connected to the internal capacitor or battery so you can’t take the output voltage variation as an indication of the depth of discharge of the capacitor.

          • Sanjeev

            Quote:From the video we are not seeing that or anything like that.

            Exactly. Your calculations are right and I arrived at more or less the same numbers. What I see in videos is that it gets charged to about 5V as checked many times now. The question is where is that energy going then?
            I honestly don’t know and I’d prefer to not to jump to any conclusions and will remain on fence. The meters are not accurate, the internal hardware is unknown, all I have is speculations.
            I’m a fence sitter skeptic. Even for the E-Cat, more so for OCube.

          • ecatworld

            One more video above showing 2 attempts with the small LED stick

        • Zephir

          Maybe the output electronics is somehow crippled by static discharge or somehow else. Maybe it draws too much juice from Orbo powerpack. The behavior of unit which refuses to provide voltage, once the voltage falls bellow 4 V is not quite normal.

          The last resort would be to open the unit, dismantle it and to measure the powerpack output without any electronics attached.

  • Frank Acland

    Short video from this morning posted above.

    • FC

      Good stuff, Frank.
      I tried pausing the video when you plug the LED lamp into the ocube in order to read the usb meter and it seems to give very similar voltage and amperage readings to the wall charger.

      • FC

        4.97 V vs 4.52 V
        0.37 A vs 0.32 A

        • Sanjeev

          Good detective work. I can barely see anything, too blurry. Frank should do another video of discharging, this time ensuring that the meter is in focus.

        • Ged

          USB ports usually have a current regulator to keep them around 4.5-5V. This is not always the case! I have personally seen USB connectors that aren’t regulated like a class B, leading to very different behavior. At any rate, it looks like the USB port on the Orbo is the regulated sort (like the wall charger) which means it just won’t pass an active current for anything under 4 V, which makes sense of those results you posted.

          • SG

            I think this explains why the resistor tests were showing zero ampere–even for the 100 ohm test. Once the cap discharges below 4 V (which would happen quickly as the voltage drop curve is exponential on discharge of a capacitor), the USB PCB likely stops passing current. I think you nailed it Ged.

    • Pweet

      How long was the orbo left off load before inserting the lamp in the above video?
      The ‘on load’ time still looks to be between 1 and 2 seconds, and that’s the same time we got in the earlier video when it was left off load for only 2 minutes.

      • Frank Acland

        That was after leaving it overnight.

        • Frank Acland

          About a 1/2 hour later I did another test and it flashed on for a shorter period of time — not enough time for the Volts and Amps to register on the meter.

          • Pweet

            All indications are now that the small apparent recharge is more a function of the capacitor reforming after discharge, rather than it actually being recharged by an external circuit.
            Whether a lithium battery is installed or not should not affect whether the unit actually recharges. It will only affect the length of time it takes to come to the conclusion the thing is not recharging itself, due to the fact that a fully charged lithium battery will take a long time to discharge at the low power output available from the device.
            That’s a bit disappointing.
            Oh well,.. back to the tv. I wonder what’s on?

        • Pweet

          Dear oh dear,.. that’s not a good sign.
          If there was any recharging happening the level of recharge should be proportional to time off load, and that has not happened.
          Since it was off load all night it looks like that is not the case.

          I think that pretty much seals it. It does not recharge or at least, not to any usable level.
          You can cancel all my previous advice on tests because if there is no recharge then all tests will all arrive at a dead end. Sorry.

          • Dieter_G

            I see it exactly the same way and as fritz124 already said, it was most likely already “dead” on arrival.
            The good news about that is, that it is nearly unimaginable that steorn sent this unit in such a condition deliberately. Its most likely just some kind of defect. So, no need to be overly pessimistic at the time beeing, I think.

            The only thig that doesn’t fit the picture is that it worked for “long periods of time” at the beginning. Assuming the 5F cap is treated as if it were a Li-cell by the circuitry (meaning it’d be charged to a max. of 4.2V and discharged to a min. of 3V), it would light the 1.5W LED only for about 15 seconds.
            Maybe the supercap is alot bigger than stated by steorn, like 50F. That would explain everything I’ve heard and seen so far.

            Can you tell us more exactly how long it worked at the beginning, Frank ?

          • Frank Acland

            When I first opened it up, I was trying it out. I would say I had it running LEDS for about 2 hours continuously. I wasn’t even thinking of doing a formal test at that time, or keeping track of time, since I was just trying it out to get a feel of what it was capable. However, it was not able to charge any mobile devices via USB for any period of time at all. They would start to charge, then the charge sign went off after about 1 second.

          • Dieter_G

            Ah, ok.
            Well, 2h is a lot of time. Even if it was only 1 hour, that rules a supercap out. Such a capacitor wouldn’t fit into it.

            The behavior of the mobile devices can be explained (as a possibility) by them drawing too much power. They surely won’t be satisfied by 300mA, like the LED-Light

          • Sanjeev

            2 hours of on time surely does not compute.

          • Blue Energy

            Frank, when you say, “…I had it running LEDS for about 2 hours continuously…”, which LEDs were those? Do we know what they draw?

          • Frank Acland

            Hold on, I’ll do a quick video and show you.

          • Frank Acland

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OucEOPZI81Y

            I used them both when I first tried out the cube, approximately equal amounts of time. BTW the 2 hours is a guess based on my memory, I just wasn’t timing the runs.

          • Sanjeev

            It consumes about half of the big ones, 0.75W.
            It should light up for more time if you connect them to Ocube.

          • Blue Energy

            Well… even if your time estimation were off by quite a lot – I just don’t see how the capacitor in question could have powered it. There must be something else in the circuit capable of storing power.

          • DrD

            Not necessarily because the internal battery is missing therfore it charges a 5F capacitor which probably takes almost as much charge in a few seconds as it would over night and that’s not enough to keep the output above 4V for more than a few seconds, exactly as calculated by others. It still doesn’t explain how it lasted a long time the first time. Remember, to light an LED it needs at least 4V to 4.5V maybe more.
            To rule out the absence of the battery as an explanation “we” definitely need a battery subsitute adding (even externally might do it)!!!

          • Frank Acland

            Here’s a theory, based on what Shaun McCarthy told me. He said that the Orbo pack itself has its own capacitance (in addition to the 5F cap) — as a byproduct of what it is, not the main effect. If it is indeed a self-charging technology, that capacitance could have been building up for a long time (maybe months) until I discharged it all when I first was using the cube.

          • DrD

            Yes, I agree, I also wondered about that but it’s not obvious how that extra capacitance could provide so much extra discharge time. It could be that they charged it before shipping, maybe when it had the battery inside. OR did it pass through an energetic charging field in transit. Lots of idea’s, few answers I fear.

          • SG

            > If there was any recharging happening the level of recharge should be proportional to time off load

            That statement is incorrect, at least for relatively larger loads like the 1.5 W bank of LEDs.

            1F = 1ampSeconds / Volt
            5F = 5ampSeconds / Volt

            Since the LEDs operate at 5 Volt that makes 1 second at 1 ampere. Since the LEDs consume about 0.3 ampere (1.5 watt) they could produce light for a maximum of 3 seconds no matter how long you let the unit charge. Since a capacitor also loses voltage when it discharges it might be way less time since the LEDs need a certain voltage to operate.

            Your statement will be correct, however, for smaller loads, assuming the right balance can be struck between charging and draining the capacitor–enough so to get a good reading on the meter.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            (5 As/V * (5V)^2) = 62.5 Ws. That would theoretically allow 41.67 seconds of operation at 1.5 W, but it could be less if the voltage would drop below a critical threshold.

            However, these figures cannot explain why the LED worked initially for 1-2 hours.

          • Ged

            Those were smaller leds, not the 1.5W lamp apparently. But yes, mysterious…

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Should read “(5 As/V * (5V)^2)/2”

          • SG

            And even then, this doesn’t tell us much because the operating voltage drops exponentially on discharge of the capacitor. One cannot assume that the operating voltage remains at 5V.

          • Sanjeev

            You have no idea how a capacitor works ๐Ÿ™‚
            You can’t charge it more than its capacity even if you keep it for a year.
            It seems it gets charged in few minutes to its max.

          • Frank Acland

            Which may give some credence to Shaun’s statement that the Orbo pack itself has capacitance.

          • Sanjeev

            I’m really puzzled, to be honest. LEDs lighting for 2 hours on internal charge of the “orbo core” is mysterious. It must have a HUGE capacitance, like 1000F or something. Can someone calculate please?

          • Sanjeev

            Oh, I remember now, you said those were tiny LEDs, not this LED table lamp.
            So I may be mistaken here.
            Can you try those tiny ones again?

          • Andreas Moraitis

            The โ€tiny onesโ€ are rated at 0.8 W, which is still twice as much as allowed. It might be that the LEDs have been powered by the Orbo chip for a while until the latter got damaged due to the overload.

          • Sanjeev

            I remember that SM demonstrated shorting out of the orbo electret, to show how the voltage jumps back to its original value. So I guess overloading or even shorting it won’t damage it.

          • Pweet

            2 hours run time on a load of 0.75 watts (the small led) would require a capacitance of 732 farads, discharging from 5 to 3.2 volts.
            I don’t think it would fit in the available space. It would require two cells because the maximum voltage per cell for ultracaps is only 2.7 volts ( I think,.. without checking.)
            Or,.. a lithium battery with a 500mahr capacity.
            Or, a 1000mahr lithium battery would run the small 0.75 watt led for about 5 hours.

            From the fence I’m sitting on I see what looks like an embedded lithium battery even though it is reported there isn’t one.
            The problem then becomes, why isn’t it recharging.?
            The answer could be, that it isn’t the rechargeable type.
            (Or, there is a current shortage of dark energy at the moment.)

            Actually, to be more precise, from the fence I’m sitting on I see a tin of worms.
            Most assumptions are ending in indeterminate and/or inconsistent conclusions which are not really being backed up by what we see.

          • As you might expect from an electret-type device, although this would normally be a relatively small value.

          • txt29

            You have no idea how a capacitor works either ๐Ÿ™‚ If you can discharge the capacitor with 1.5W in 1s, the you can charge it with 0.4W within 4s (and that includes even the time of the discharge). Frank’s Orbo does not recharge sufficiently even after several minutes.

          • Sanjeev

            You are assuming here that the source that is charging the 5F cap is always at 5V. You really don’t know the voltage of the source when connected to a cap, which is discharging into a load.
            Remember that the “orbo core” electret had an open circuit voltage of 5V. Open circuit is the key word.
            Its all my opinion anyway, I’d let the detailed tests speak before I conclude anything solid.

          • txt29

            The voltage does not matter for the ratio, just for the discharge/recharge time. If you only discharge it to certain voltage, the less you then need to recharge it again. In other words the shorter the discharge, the faster the recharge. The ratio between the times of discharge by 1.5W and recharge by 0.4 will always be ~1:4, regardless of the voltage range, or the capacity.

          • Pweet

            As it happens, I do have a little knowledge on how capacitors work, and also of their discharge characteristics. I completely agree that once the capacitor is full you can’t add in any more.
            The energy available for each discharge cycle can be calculated as the energy in the capacitor at full charge voltage minus the energy left in the cap at the discharge switch off point. The problem here is that we do not seem to be getting the energy out consistent with the stated size of the capacitor, which is 5 farads.
            Lets look at a few figures.
            We don’t know what voltage the circuit drains the capacitor to before it switches off but we can make an educated guess on the basis of what would be a safe level so as not to damage a lithium battery if one was fitted. That would be around 3.2 volts.
            So, without boring you with the calculations,
            Energy in a 5F cap at 5 volts is 62.5 joules.
            Energy in a 5F cap at 3.2 volts is 25.6 joules.
            That means we have 36.9 joules to use to light up a .75 watt led for the small led and double that for the bigger led lamp.
            36.9 joules would equate to a power drain of 1 watt for 36.9 seconds.
            or .75 watts for 50 seconds. (small led)
            or 1.5 watts for 25 seconds. ( led reading lamp)

            From the video we are not seeing that or anything like that. After a 1 hour recharge it runs a .75 watt load for 4 seconds.
            Even if we take more conservative figures of say a 4 volt discharge switch off point the figures are still way off the mark.
            For 36.9 joules of energy to consumed in 4 seconds it would require a load of 9 watts. We have a load of .75 watts.
            Explanations are,
            1/. we do not have 36.9 Joules of energy there. or
            2/. the USB dongle consumes the difference of more than 8 watts.
            Option 2 is highly unlikely.

            These figures assume the cap was fully charged to 5 volts.
            You would expect if it was left overnight it would be, or even after a few hours it would be. If it’s not then the recharge rate is very much in deficit of what is claimed.
            In any case, for the low load placed on the device, there should be some correlation between the run time of the load and the charge time in between running it.
            From what I can see there is none, and that cannot be explained by saying the capacitor is being fully charged and can’t take any more energy. If it was, the small led should run for around 50 seconds and clearly it does not. It’s more than an order of magnitude short.

            I will again say, and have previously mentioned, the almost constant 5 volts at the output of the orbo would be achieved through the use of a small switchmode supply inside the unit.
            The output of the orbo is not directly connected to the internal capacitor or battery so you can’t take the output voltage variation as an indication of the depth of discharge of the capacitor.

          • Sanjeev

            Quote:From the video we are not seeing that or anything like that.

            Exactly. Your calculations are right and I arrived at more or less the same numbers. What I see in videos is that it gets charged to about 5V as checked many times now. The question is where is that energy going then?
            I honestly don’t know and I’d prefer to not to jump to any conclusions and will remain on fence. The meters are not accurate, the internal hardware is unknown, all I have is speculations.
            I’m a fence sitter skeptic. Even for the E-Cat, more so for OCube.

        • Zephir

          Maybe the output electronics got somehow crippled by static discharge or somehow else. Maybe it draws too much juice from Orbo powerpack even at the rest state. The behavior of unit which refuses to provide voltage, once the voltage falls bellow 4 V is not quite normal.

          The last resort would be to open the unit, dismantle it and to measure the powerpack output without any electronics attached. After all, this is the most relevant test of Steorn technology.

  • Pweet

    It might be assumed by some that we’re not getting anywhere but every test which doesn’t work tells us something, and it will help us zero in on what works and thus how it works.

    Assuming the device switches off when the internal cell is discharged, I was wondering what sort of trigger circuit would be used to turn it back on.
    I think maybe it could rely on the load being disconnected and then reconnected some time later, as per what you were originally doing when plugging the lamp in and out. You did mention that the lamp still lights up so we need to duplicate that effect for it to work. That would indicate it senses a load change to activate the ‘on’ state.
    So,.. perhaps if you disconnect the power meter for three or four minutes and then plug it back in with the 100 ohm resistor already attached as in the above picture, and see if there are any readings for volts and milliamps.
    If there isn’t, it would indicate that the device only switches on the output if a significant load is presented to the cube, such as when charging a phone or running your lamp.
    If that is the case, running the lamp gives us a starting point for what sort of load is required to keep it turned on. If it’s 2.5 watts then that equates to a current of 500ma at 5 volts for an equivalent resistance of 10 ohms. I think that’s a bit low but you could try something around 22 ohms maybe?

    So first off we need to know if removing the power meter and later circuitry for a few minutes and then reconnecting it will make it turn on with the 100 ohm resistor in place. If yes then you can proceed with whatever measurements you planned, such as longer off periods to make longer on periods maybe.

    If not, disconnect power meter and circuit for a few minutes, say 5 minutes,. fit a 10 ohm resistor to load plug, and then reconnect power meter with 10 ohm resistor in place. It should start up but discharge in a second or two like it does with the lamp.
    If still no action, I’m all out of ideas and more thought is needed.

    I very much doubt it just a box with a battery and usb port in it. A con like that is too easily busted and there would be no point in sending it to someone who they knew would do just that.
    I think it will be a large pick up coil of about the same diameter as the orbo unit, plus a bit of circuitry to rectify and store the energy in an ultra capacitor or previously a Li ion battery, plus some sort of sense circuit to detect when the cell or battery is flat and disconnect it from the output circuit.

    The output circuit will be a small switchmode power supply which converts the variable cell voltage to a regulated 5 volt output with a small current limit of about 80ma or less, to make .4 watts output. They are very common in all sorts of pocket devices which run off small batteries and are now dirt cheap to buy ready made.
    The stated output will not be the recharge current to the cell but the output capability of the cube when the cell is charged. The actual recharge current to the cell will be significantly lower than the orbo output specification, probably in the order of 10ma or less. Thus 8 hours off load should give about 1 hour on load, if it works.

    You might have to go back to the original test configuration of a long charge cycle with no load, say 60 minutes, and then measure the energy output for as long as it takes to switch itself off, as you were doing with the lamp plugging in and out. Longer ‘off’ times should result in longer ‘on’ times and thus a more accurate measurement of output power.
    This is what you were doing with the lamp and it did work, except with such short times of discharge, the measurement errors formed an unacceptably high percentage of the results. So if all else fails we can go back to testing it with that method but with longer periods.
    It will still be reasonably accurate so long as you measure times accurately.

  • Pweet

    It might be assumed by some that we’re not getting anywhere but every test which doesn’t work tells us something, and it will help us zero in on what works and thus how it works.

    Assuming the device switches off when the internal cell is discharged, I was wondering what sort of trigger circuit would be used to turn it back on.
    I think maybe it could rely on the load being disconnected and then reconnected some time later, as per what you were originally doing when plugging the lamp in and out. You did mention that the lamp still lights up so we need to duplicate that effect for it to work. That would indicate it senses a load change to activate the ‘on’ state.
    So,.. perhaps if you disconnect the power meter for three or four minutes and then plug it back in with the 100 ohm resistor already attached as in the above picture, and see if there are any readings for volts and milliamps.
    If there isn’t, it would indicate that the device only switches on the output if a significant load is presented to the cube, such as when charging a phone or running your lamp.
    If that is the case, running the lamp gives us a starting point for what sort of load is required to keep it turned on. If it’s 2.5 watts then that equates to a current of 500ma at 5 volts for an equivalent resistance of 10 ohms. I think that’s a bit low but you could try something around 22 ohms maybe?

    So first off we need to know if removing the power meter and later circuitry for a few minutes and then reconnecting it will make it turn on with the 100 ohm resistor in place. If yes then you can proceed with whatever measurements you planned, such as longer off periods to make longer on periods maybe.

    If not, disconnect power meter and circuit for a few minutes, say 5 minutes,. fit a 10 ohm resistor to load plug, and then reconnect power meter with 10 ohm resistor in place. It should start up but discharge in a second or two like it does with the lamp.
    If still no action, I’m all out of ideas and more thought is needed.

    I very much doubt it just a box with a battery and usb port in it. A con like that is too easily busted and there would be no point in sending it to someone who they knew would do just that.
    I think it will be a large pick up coil of about the same diameter as the orbo unit, plus a bit of circuitry to rectify and store the energy in an ultra capacitor or previously a Li ion battery, plus some sort of sense circuit to detect when the cell or battery is flat and disconnect it from the output circuit.

    The output circuit will be a small switchmode power supply which converts the variable cell voltage to a regulated 5 volt output with a small current limit of about 80ma or less, to make .4 watts output. They are very common in all sorts of pocket devices which run off small batteries and are now dirt cheap to buy ready made.
    The stated output will not be the recharge current to the cell but the output capability of the cube when the cell is charged. The actual recharge current to the cell will be significantly lower than the orbo output specification, probably in the order of 10ma or less. Thus 8 hours off load should give about 1 hour on load, if it works.

    You might have to go back to the original test configuration of a long charge cycle with no load, say 60 minutes, and then measure the energy output for as long as it takes to switch itself off, as you were doing with the lamp plugging in and out. Longer ‘off’ times should result in longer ‘on’ times and thus a more accurate measurement of output power.
    This is what you were doing with the lamp and it did work, except with such short times of discharge, the measurement errors formed an unacceptably high percentage of the results. So if all else fails we can go back to testing it with that method but with longer periods.
    It will still be reasonably accurate so long as you measure times accurately.

  • I’m sure the contributors to this site want to believe that the claims of Steorn are true. I do too – maybe more than many of you because I’ve spent thousands of hours on trying to develop similar things myself. However, I have a nephew who was at the top of his class in a Minneapolis High School of over 700 students, went to Cal Tech and then on to MIT to get a PhD and now is one the head professors in the Chemical Engineering department at the University of Minnesota, and he says he would bet his entire career that what Steorn claims in untrue. No matter how much any of us would like to believe their claims are true, there is just no evidence to indicate that their claims are true.

    • “there is just no evidence to indicate that their claims are true”

      Admin has one device in hand and another one coming, so why don’t we wait until there is some evidence on which to make an assessment, rather than relying on negative conclusions offered by highly qualified (in Chemical Engineering?) Professors.

      • To the best of my knowledge, every Physics Department of every University on planet earth teaches that what Steorn claims is impossible. What are your credentials?

        • I have not made any assertion that needs to be backed up by credentials, other than that a rational assessment requires evidence which is currently lacking, and that the assumptions and opinions of experts in irrelevant fields are immaterial.

          • You are saying the same thing I said. “There is no evidence to indicate that Steorn’s claims are true.” Remember 7-8 years ago they had a jury of experts conclude that Steorn has no energy producing device or method. Since, most-likely, essentially every expert physicist who has ever lived or is living today, including Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman (if they were alive today) and Stephen Hawking would say Steorn’s claims are impossible, the only rational thing for non-experts like myself to do is to assume Steorn’s claims are false unless and until someone irrefutably proves them to be true. As I said before, I wish Steorn’s claims were true, but for Steorn to send out what they sent out to prove their claims, to me, almost proves they have nothing. Why would any group of rational people do what they’ve done in the last couple of months? As someone suggested earlier, they could have spent about $2 and connected an LED in series with a current-limiting resister to prove they have a valid power generator, but, instead, they’ve spent millions on stupid, unnecessary advertising and promotional crap. Plus, why don’t they focus on one thing and get it to work? They’ve bounced around from water heaters, to motors, to chargers to phones – none of which most-likely work as they claim and none of which are creating any revenue or profit. Everyone is free to believe whatever they choose to believe. You are free to believe the moon is made of cheese if you like.

  • I’m sure the contributors to this site want to believe that the claims of Steorn are true. I do too – maybe more than many of you because I’ve spent thousands of hours on trying to develop similar things myself. However, I have a nephew who was at the top of his class in a Minneapolis High School of over 700 students, went to Cal Tech and then on to MIT to get a PhD and now is one of the head professors in the Chemical Engineering department at the University of Minnesota, and he says he would bet his entire career that what Steorn claims is untrue. No matter how much any of us would like to believe their claims are true, there is just no evidence to indicate that their claims are true.

    • “there is just no evidence to indicate that their claims are true”

      Admin has one device in hand and another one coming, so why don’t we wait until there is some evidence on which to make an assessment, rather than relying on the negative opinion of a Professor of Chemical Engineering.

      Or perhaps we should at least get second opinions from a couple of Professors of archaeology and entomology.

      • To the best of my knowledge, every Physics Department of every University on planet earth teaches that what Steorn claims is impossible. What are your credentials?

        • I have not made any assertion that needs to be backed up by credentials, other than that a rational assessment requires evidence which is currently lacking, and that the assumptions and opinions of experts – particularly those in irrelevant fields – are immaterial.

          • You are saying the same thing I said. “There is no evidence to indicate that Steorn’s claims are true.” Remember 7-8 years ago they had a jury of experts conclude that Steorn has no energy producing device or method. Since, most-likely, essentially every expert physicist who has ever lived or is living today, including Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman (if they were alive today) and Stephen Hawking would say Steorn’s claims are impossible, the only rational thing for non-experts like myself to do is to assume Steorn’s claims are false unless and until someone irrefutably proves them to be true. As I said before, I wish Steorn’s claims were true, but for Steorn to send out what they sent out to prove their claims, to me, almost proves they have nothing. Why would any group of rational people do what they’ve done in the last couple of months? As someone suggested earlier, they could have spent about $2 and connected an LED in series with a current-limiting resister to prove they have a valid power generator, but, instead, they’ve spent millions on stupid, unnecessary advertising and promotional crap. Plus, why don’t they focus on one thing and get it to work? They’ve bounced around from water heaters, to motors, to chargers to phones – none of which most-likely work as they claim and none of which are creating any revenue or profit. Everyone is free to believe whatever they choose to believe. You are free to believe the moon is made of cheese if you like.

  • It could be that Steorn sent out those units just to see how difficult it would be for recipients to open the case.

  • Stephen

    Has Steorn indicated how long the device takes to recover if it is fully discharged (both the capacitor and the device)?

    Actually this could be an opportunity if they can help as perhaps we can see if it recharges faster in different environments. e.g noisy, vibrating, hot or cold, electromagnetic etc as well as different locations and altitudes etc, i guess zero g is not possible for any length of time unless someone takes it to the space station. Maybe that is also good information for them.

    Also when you get the new one it could be interesting to compare the responses from a fully charged and heavily discharged device

    • Stephen

      Hey Steorn… Thinking about zero g and other environmental issues wouldn’t this be a great way to prove your device: use it to power a micro-satellite in orbit around the earth. No way any one is going to interfere with it up there and there are already mico-satellites that are based on mobile phones. If it works up there for months or years I’m pretty sure you will get a lot of interest for that application too.

      • Guy Mann

        If they wanted to prove it, they could have just sold Orbo power packs connected to a .4 watt led that would run forever.

        • Absolutely.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Well – a 0.39W just to be sure… t b sure

          • SG

            Yep. ๐Ÿ™‚

            Let’s get the lid off, and do it.

        • Stephen

          Yup your right, but I’m thinking more about trying to proving if it is harvesting energy from somewhere or not. A self powered instrument that transmits self data about current and voltage, temperature etc. In space sound, vibration and gravity will be minimal. If it works in space and If it was harvesting energy it might prove to be an intresting sensor if it works and is not showing indication of harvesting energy that would be even more intresting and may prove to some extent some other Unknown process is occurring.

          If it works in space the technology could be very useful for self powered instruments and low powered or rarely used sensors etc.

  • Stephen

    Has Steorn indicated how long the device takes to recover if it is fully discharged (both the capacitor and the device)?

    Actually this could be an opportunity if they can help as perhaps we can see if it recharges faster in different environments. e.g noisy, vibrating, hot or cold, electromagnetic etc as well as different locations and altitudes etc, i guess zero g is not possible for any length of time unless someone takes it to the space station. Maybe that is also good information for them.

    Also when you get the new one it could be interesting to compare the responses from a fully charged and heavily discharged device

    • Stephen

      Hey Steorn… Thinking about zero g and other environmental issues wouldn’t this be a great way to prove your device: use it to power a micro-satellite in orbit around the earth. No way any one is going to interfere with it up there and there are already mico-satellites that are based on mobile phones. If it works up there for months or years I’m pretty sure you will get a lot of interest for that application too.

  • Stephen

    in terms of possible tests:

    Once we have a well characterised working device, would it be interesting to put it in a thermally sealed box, to see if cools or heats the local environment?

    That could be interesting if we consider the conservation laws of thermal dynamics.

  • Stephen

    in terms of possible tests:

    Once we have a well characterised working device, would it be interesting to put it in a thermally sealed box, to see if cools or heats the local environment?

    That could be interesting if we consider the conservation laws of thermal dynamics.

    • Tester

      GOOD IDEA

  • Frank Acland

    Another video posted above of some new testing.

    • Ged

      Thanks for these vids, Frank!

    • Sanjeev

      I could capture this at 0:31
      4.89V 0.31A

      • Ged

        Any idea what the power draw is of the metering dongle?

        • Blue Energy

          Very good question.

        • Sanjeev

          Can be found from the specs of it.

        • Frank Acland

          I just checked it on the Portapow meter: 5.0285 V, 0.0000A

  • Blue Energy

    Purportedly, at least, there is no battery in the one Frank got. Those other two supposedly had batteries to overcharge. But, I think it’s interesting that when Frank allows the capacitor to build a charge overnight – he doesn’t end up with anything like the two hours of run time at .75 W that he got when he first plugged it in. It took, roughly, a week to ship it to him. Presuming that it was mostly uncharged before it was sent, it would seem to have charged at a much higher rate while it was traveling than it has while sitting on Frank’s table. Maybe the source of the power Orbo taps into is distributed evenly in space and moving through it causes a greater accumulation and conversion into electric charge. Essentially – Orbo runs on jet lag. You heard it here first! ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • mlwerner

    In the latest video, the LED’s and USB measurement device shut off instantly. Have you attached that device arrangement to a variable power supply to see how it reacts between 5V and ~4V? I suspect that some under voltage protection circuit in the Orbo is shutting the output off. Many inexpensive USB devices would probably fail if connected to a USB supply that slowly drifted down to unusable voltage levels. The USB specification probably requires a low voltage cut off at -10% (guess).
    The PortaPow, with its internal battery, wouldn’t be subject to issues with the output of the Orbo. I wouldn’t put too much effort into using the LED’s and such. I suppose they show up nice on vids, but give no quantitative information.

    With these low power levels you can probably get a variable resistor to put into the R location on the PortaPow leads rather than trying a number of different resistors. Maybe 100 ohms fixed in series with a 10K pot. The PortaPow will measure all the useful information and the value of the resistance is not of much interest.

    • Frank Acland

      No, I haven’t used a variable power supply.

  • DrD

    I think not because they demonstrate it recovering from a long period shorted out and also it’s not fit for purpose if that happens. However, the charge control circuitry most likely disables the charging once it detects a full battery, i.e. about 5V which, in the absence of a battery and only capacitance, it might reach very quickly. Possibly explains why it doesn’t charge very much. Indeed, I think Franks display did indeed show about 5V but of course that doesn’t represent a lot of charge if it’s only on a capacitor, even 5F as pointed out by others and when driving LEDs only the charge between 5V and 4.5V is available and the V falls almost linearly with time over that small range. Which is why adding a battery may change the game completely, even NiCd’s.

  • Frank Acland

    BTW, I did get a weight for this unit: 1101g

    • Frank Acland

      Size:

      The circumference is 420 mm.
      From the top of the skull to the bottom of the chin is 144 mm.
      From ear to ear is 118 mm.
      Depth is 39 mm.
      Thickness of top casing is 3 mm.

      • FC

        Thank you very much for the weight and dimensions, Frank.

        The volume seems to be in the order of 0.5 liters, give or take.

        By weight, the maximum energy capacity that we could expect (if the ocube was just a battery) is around 300 Wh.

        By volume, the maximum energy capacity that we could expect (if the ocube was just a battery) is around 400 Wh.

        • DrD

          Nice. AND, given that Franks supposedly has a missing battery which means the complete unit would weigh more, then 400 is just possible. So it would take along time to prove it’s not a battery by wating for it to discharge at the low rate Franks observing, A tear down would answer it much faster. I’d be amazed if it is just a big battery.

          • FC

            I totally agree.

            On the other hand, for a fully operational ocube, it would take in the order of 40 smartphone recharges (maybe a month?) to rule out the battery hypothesis.

            Luckily, we mey get an answer this very evening.

  • ecatworld

    No, I haven’t used a variable power supply.

  • DrD

    Frank, on the two occasions when the LED didn’t light at all, had you done anything differently, like turning a light off, or anything?

    • ecatworld

      No, nothing obvious that comes to mind

  • DrD

    Frank, on the two occasions when the LED didn’t light at all, had you done anything differently, like turning a light off, or anything?

    • Frank Acland

      No, nothing obvious that comes to mind

  • Esko Lyytinen

    Frank, can you leave the measuring dongle inserted to the O and loosen the led from it only. When the internal charge gets enough for the inside electronics to open the route out, the voltage should get to about 5 V and the display become active and then you know that you can insert again the led for a while. You can also better measure the time needed for this and for example follow if this keeps about the same or gets longer after successive periods of this.

    • ecatworld

      Hi Esko. I’m not sure I quite follow — let me see if I understand you correctly:

      You say insert the Dongle and small LED into the cube together, then take out the LED from the stick? Then put it back in again?

      • Esko Lyytinen

        Like that for example and yes better to test with the small LED.
        Let the Dongle be inserted in the cube. No need to take it away, in my opinion. When the LED stops, remove this only. The Dongle also appears dead, but I expect this to get alive once the Voltage again jumps up, which should happen itself without practically no load. And you will soon see this, IF watching.

        • ecatworld

          Ok thanks. I can try that, but I’ve left the dongle standing before for some time and I’ve never seen it come alive again after the cube has discharged. Seems like once you discharge the thing, you have to unplug everything and wait for the recharge.

  • Esko Lyytinen

    Frank, can you leave the measuring dongle inserted to the O and loosen the led from it only. When the internal charge gets enough for the inside electronics to open the route out, the voltage should get to about 5 V and the display become active and then you know that you can insert again the led for a while. You can also better measure the time needed for this and for example follow if this keeps about the same or gets longer after successive periods of this.

    • Frank Acland

      Hi Esko. I’m not sure I quite follow — let me see if I understand you correctly:

      You say insert the Dongle and small LED into the cube together, then take out the LED from the stick? Then put it back in again?

      • txt29

        No, just plug in the dongle, or even better – the externally powered meter, and let it in all the time, so that you can watch how quick the voltage restores. If the external meter has a recording function, make sure you activate it, so that you can then show the graph.

        • SG

          This is actually a good idea, but not possible at the present moment, due to the likely presence of a current limiter on the USB PCB.

          But once the lid is off, and assuming there are terminals to which the meter can be attached, the voltage restoration of the cap over time should be observed.

      • Esko Lyytinen

        Like that for example and yes better to test with the small LED.
        Let the Dongle be inserted in the cube. No need to take it away, in my opinion. When the LED stops, remove this only. The Dongle also appears dead, but I expect this to get alive once the Voltage again jumps up, which should happen itself without practically no load. And you will soon see this, IF watching.

        • Frank Acland

          Ok thanks. I can try that, but I’ve left the dongle standing before for some time and I’ve never seen it come alive again after the cube has discharged. Seems like once you discharge the thing, you have to unplug everything and wait for the recharge.

  • ecatworld

    Another short video posted above, this time with the smaller USB LED stick

    • txt29

      Wow, 5s at 5V/0.15A, that gives full 1mWh charge in ~3 hours, instead of the expected 1.2Wh. That
      is only 3 orders of magnitude below the expectations.

      • Sanjeev

        The amount of energy a 5F cap can hold at 5V is about 17mWh only.
        Your assumptions are not correct. You don’t know if it took 3 hours to charge. It could do that in 1 hour or more or less.

        • txt29

          You forget the Orbo cell is supposed to have three orders of magnitude higher capacitance than the 5F capacitor (that’s supposed to be why it could keep such a large charge initially). But even if it was just another Stoern’s lie, the 17mWh would be recharged within 2.5 minutes at 0.4W of power. You need hours.

          • Sanjeev

            You don’t know if there is a cap inside with 3 orders of magnitude more capacitance.
            You don’t know if its producing 0.4W inside.
            Yes, it could be all lies, but you don’t know.
            txt29, your all posts contain too many assumptions, which you firmly believe to be true I guess. That’s not Science. Let him open and find it out.

          • txt29

            Which assumptions? I clearly wrote that even _without_ the extra capacitance of the Orbo cell (claimed by Steorn), the 0.4W charging time cannot be longer than 2 times the discharging time at 0.8W. It is no wild assumption, but a clear and simple fact that nobody can deny, regardless how big is the capacitance, and regardless how high the voltage threshold is, at which the LED turns on or off.

          • SG

            This is incorrect. The charging and discharging rates of a cap are not symmetrical.

          • SG

            > You need hours.

            Why do you suppose? There is video evidence of it taking far less time.

      • SG

        Wow, I’m not sure about that. Show me a 5 F capacitor that can store 1.2Wh!!!

        What is probably happening, as pointed out by Ged, is that the USB PCP is not passing any current once voltage drops below 4V, which happens exponentially on discharge of the cap.

    • Gerard McEk

      Hi Frank, It appears to charge, so that is good news. Still not able to open it?

      • Sanjeev

        It does seem to charge itself up. Now the question is how. Hidden battery?

    • Sanjeev

      Can you plug it in (after an hour) without the meter so that we can check if it lasts longer or if the meter is drawing power or has a cut off etc?

      • ecatworld

        Ok, I’ll do it again at 3:22

      • ecatworld

        At 3:22 I plugged it in and nothing came on, so not much point posting a video.

        • Sanjeev

          Probably needs more time.

  • Frank Acland

    Another short video posted above, this time with the smaller USB LED stick

    • txt29

      Wow, 5s at 5V/0.15A, that gives full 1mWh charge in ~3 hours, instead of the expected 1.2Wh. That
      is only 3 orders of magnitude below the expectations.

      • Sanjeev

        The amount of energy a 5F cap can hold at 5V is about 17mWh only.
        Your assumptions are not correct. You don’t know if it took 3 hours to charge. It could do that in 1 hour or more or less.

        • txt29

          You forget the Orbo cell is supposed to have three orders of magnitude higher capacitance than the 5F capacitor (that’s supposed to be why it could keep such a large charge initially). But even if it was just another Stoern’s lie, the 17mWh would be recharged within 2.5 minutes at 0.4W of power. You need hours.

          • Sanjeev

            You don’t know if there is a cap inside with 3 orders of magnitude more capacitance.
            You don’t know if its producing 0.4W inside.
            Yes, it could be all lies, but you don’t know.
            txt29, your all posts contain too many assumptions, which you firmly believe to be true I guess. That’s not Science. Let him open it and find it out.

          • Dieter_G

            There is no need to whitewash things.
            In its actual condition, its a piece of crap. A nearly depleted AA batterie hooked up to an enery-harvester would perform the same.
            “You don’t know if its producing 0.4W inside”. Yeah, and where do they go ?
            A 5KF, 5V-supercap (thats two in series) will not fit into this case.
            THIS, is all speculation.
            txt29’s statements are correct.

            But I agree, that only opening it will bring (at least more) evidence.

          • SG

            > txt29’s statements are correct

            Actually, his statements are usually incorrect. But he does come up with a good idea now and then that should be tried.

          • txt29

            Which assumptions? I clearly wrote that even _without_ the extra capacitance of the Orbo cell (claimed by Steorn), the 0.4W charging time cannot be longer than 2 times the discharging time at 0.8W. It is no wild assumption, but a clear and simple fact that nobody can deny, regardless how big is the capacitance, and regardless how high the voltage threshold is, at which the LED turns on or off.

          • Dieter_G

            correct

          • SG

            Incorrect. This provides an example of why he is incorrect on this point:

            http://faraday.physics.utoronto.ca/IYearLab/capacitor.pdf

          • SG

            This is incorrect. The charging and discharging rates of a cap are not symmetrical.

          • Dieter_G

            But there must be something wrong with this unit.
            Frank said, it lasted for about 2 hours with the 1.5W Lamp. Thats about 3Wh which is about the energy-content of a single AA battery.
            Even if they are scamers, they wouldn’t deliver such a crap. They’d at least put 10 AA batts into it. Even more likely some special high-energy-density-battery like the aluminium-air-battery that someone mentioned here times ago.
            But only about a single AA battery ? No, thats to little, even for scamers.

            Thats why I think its highly probable that is has some defect, beeing a scam or not.

      • SG

        Wow, I’m not sure about that. Show me a 5 F capacitor that can store 1.2Wh!!!

        What is probably happening, as pointed out by Ged, is that the USB PCP is not passing any current once voltage drops below 4V, which happens exponentially on discharge of the cap.

    • Gerard McEk

      Hi Frank, It appears to charge, so that is good news. Still not able to open it?

      • Sanjeev

        It does seem to charge itself up. Now the question is how. Hidden battery?

    • Sanjeev

      Can you plug it in (after an hour) without the meter so that we can check if it lasts longer or if the meter is drawing power or has a cut off etc?

      • Frank Acland

        Ok, I’ll do it again at 3:22

      • Frank Acland

        At 3:22 I plugged it in and nothing came on, so not much point posting a video.

        • Sanjeev

          Probably needs more time.

  • ScienceFan

    With it being that size but that heavy without the battery, I’m putting my money on it being an RTG. Have a geiger counter / thermal camera available?

    • Dieter_G

      cool. How much Money do you have ?
      I bet the other Hand

  • BadgerWi

    Any word as to when you get the full factory completed device with the battery inside?

    • BadgerWi

      Never mind I just saw the other article.

      • ecatworld

        Yes I’ll have to wait along with everyone else.

  • BadgerWi

    Any word as to when you get the full factory completed device with the battery inside?

    • BadgerWi

      Never mind I just saw the other article.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes I’ll have to wait along with everyone else.

  • SG

    This is actually a good idea, but not possible at the present moment, due to the likely presence of a current limiter on the USB PCB.

    But once the lid is off, and assuming there are terminals to which the meter can be attached, the voltage restoration of the cap over time should be observed.

  • Frank Acland

    One more video above showing the 2 most recent attempts with the small LED stick.

    • txt29

      OK, so let’s calculate the charge – the charging time was ~1 hr, the LED pulled 0.14A @ 4.9V during ~4s. It gives the energy of 4s*0.14A*4.9V = 2.744Ws = 0.76mWh. The capacity of the 5F capacitor is 1/2CVยฒ = 1/2*5F*5Vยฒ = 62.5J = 0.017Wh (17mWh), so an order of magnitude above the discharge (in other words the capacitance is not at all a limiting factor here). The lost charge (4s at ~0.8W) should be then easily replaced within 8 seconds of 0.4W charging by the Orbo pack. Simple maths. Did you try replugging the LED in 10, 20, or 30s? (let’s be a bit tolerant)

      • SG

        You are again making the assumption that the charge and discharge rates of a cap are the same. They aren’t. Even assuming they are symmetrical, it is unclear whether the cap is fully discharging with each LED plug-in event due to possible complications with the USB port. Also, the effective (usable) energy is lower than the theoretical maximum capacity of the cap.

      • Sanjeev

        Your math seems to be right.
        The consumption by the blue light needs to be accounted. There can be more circuitry inside, like limiters etc. There can be charging current regulators to make it charge slowly and not load the core suddenly etc etc.
        This “customized” ocube seems to be useless except for testing purposes, which can be done only from the internal access point. There is a reason steorn asked it to be opened.

        So its all a BIG speculation, nothing more. I’d keep the “number crunching and jumping to wild conclusions” act for the last scene. (which could take months and involve other testers).

      • DrD

        Sorry but white LED’s wont run below about 3.5 to 4V (unless they contain a buck booster or similar). In fact the threshold is possibly over 4.5V if, as they should, they also contain a series current regulator. Therefore you can’t use the charge on the capacitor below some threshold of about 3.5V (plus 1V for the regulator). Below 3.5V they are high resistance, like a soft diode below it’s breakdown voltage. They won’t pass much current, nor will they light up.
        So (1/2*5F*5Vยฒ) becomes (1/2*5F*5Vยฒ-1/2*4.5F*5Vยฒ) =62.5-56.25 = 6.25 (very approximately). However, I don’t believe you can trust the 1 hour because Franks videos show that charge time varies considerably, see his series of 30 mimute tests. Two didnt work, the others did. This isn’t surprising given that we’re trying to drive LED’s (which need a fixed voltage) from a capacitor which (unlike a battery) has a voltage that falls exponentially and furthermore, only starts just above it’s threshold.
        In summary, not a reliable way to estimate charge rate.

        • Sanjeev

          I agree with you. Some quick googling shows that white leds have a cut off voltage of 3-4V. That explains the behavior nicely.

  • snowvoardphil

    How’s the ”lets open it up” project going. Do you have any kind of info on that ?

    • Frank Acland

      See my note above.

  • SG

    > txt29’s statements are correct

    Actually, his statements are usually incorrect. But he does come up with a good idea now and then that should be tried.

  • Blue Energy

    It’s interesting that Steorn has reported that they sent three units out whose batteries became over-charged in transit, but Frank, or the existence of a unit sent without batteries, wasn’t mentioned. A couple of things come to me about this. The first is that, for whatever reason, Frank *was* chosen. Apparently four total units were sent out. Three out of three of them that contained batteries were sent to locations who could be counted upon to quickly measure battery voltage and report back. The web doesn’t know anything about any of those three other than that they all immediately reported their units initial battery voltage. Considering how difficult it is to get inside the case this seems suspicious to me. It also seems suspicious that, despite the Steornosphere generally going berserk – none of the three seem to have announced that they have received one.

    Then there is Frank’s. His purportedly was sent without a battery by mistake. But, unlike the other three, he was not ever asked to take his apart (using a very uncommonly owned tool…) to remove the battery nor asked whether he had the equipment to test it. They just sent it to him and later realized (somehow…) that his lacked a battery. If they were sending a test shipment of O-Cubes to make sure shipping worked as expected – why didn’t Steorn vet Frank the same way it apparently vetted the other recipients?

    What are the odds that there has only ever been one O-Cube shipped to any customer and that it was deliberately sent without a battery? I don’t know. And, what’s more I can’t imagine why. What could the end game possibly be? But – it does all feel peculiar in a familiar way.

    Once the cover has finally been pried off by Frank’s burglar friend, it will be possible to obtain and attach a suitable replacement battery to it and so ascertain if, over the course of a week or so, its voltage rises far above the expected maximum – thus verifying Steorn’s claim. And, I suppose that it will be at least possible to compare the contents of Frank’s initial O-Cube against the contents of his replacement, when it arrives.

    • SG

      Agree with your first paragraph. As to your second, Shaun actually *did* tell Frank that he should take it apart, and has actually been giving some advice along those lines. As to your third paragraph, everything Steorn has ever done has been peculiar and quirky. They certainly march to their own beat. As to your last paragraph, it is simpler than that: just measure at the terminals of the Orbo power pack over a set period of time, and we’ll know whether the Steorn claims are absolutely real, exaggerated, or bogus (assuming the unit has not been damaged).

      • Blue Energy

        On your response to my second paragraph – yes, Shaun has been advising Frank as to how to open it. No question about that. But he did not make sure that Frank was either willing nor able to do so before it was sent – which would seem important if one was attempting to assure that a test shipment arrived successfully and in good shape. The other three apparently already all had access to the tool required to remove the bolts and had no serious difficulty with whatever it is that is preventing Frank from getting inside his. Third paragraph – absolutely agree. Fourth paragraph – your suggestion will tell us whether the claim that the orbo produces .4 W continuously forever is true. Attaching a battery will tell us whether the claim that the units, as they were shipped, were prone to over-charging or not is true. That was what I was suggesting could be tested at some point.

        • SG

          Touche. Although I’d prioritize testing the claim over testing the possible shipment delay excuse.

          • Blue Energy

            Agree.

        • DrD

          “The other three apparently already all had access” How do you know that? I could be wrong but I expect the Li-ion is connected across the output. So all they did was measure the output voltage.

          • Blue Energy

            I hadn’t considered that. That would certainly make it easier and more plausible to believe that the three spontaneously measured and reported their devices output the day they received it without prior notice. If that were true then they would only have been expected to own a volt-ohm meter and know how to use it, as well as have access to the the pin-outs on a USB socket. I, at least, know people who don’t own one and wouldn’t know how to obtain pin-outs – but maybe that’s just my people. So, not assured but at least more likely.

          • Blue Energy

            No apology necessary – we’re just talking. And you make a very good point.

      • snowvoardphil

        Didn’t he do the testing with the powametre and the resistor ? It didnt give us much more insight to whats going on in there?

        • Ged

          Sadly, no. The meter just doesn’t work with the USB as expected. It won’t read while the leds will still work. So, had to use the led dongle thing instead which isn’t as good.

  • Blue Energy

    It’s interesting that Steorn has reported that they sent three units out whose batteries became over-charged in transit, but Frank, or the existence of a unit sent without batteries, wasn’t mentioned. A couple of things come to me about this. The first is that, for whatever reason, Frank *was* chosen. Apparently four total units were sent out. Three out of three of them that contained batteries were sent to locations who could be counted upon to quickly measure battery voltage and report back. The web doesn’t know anything about any of those three other than that they all immediately reported their units initial battery voltage. Considering how difficult it is to get inside the case this seems suspicious to me. It also seems suspicious that, despite the Steornosphere generally going berserk – none of the three seem to have announced that they have received one.

    Then there is Frank’s. His purportedly was sent without a battery by mistake. But, unlike the other three, he was not ever asked to take his apart (using a very uncommonly owned tool…) to remove the battery nor asked whether he had the equipment to test it. They just sent it to him and later realized (somehow…) that his lacked a battery. If they were sending a test shipment of O-Cubes to make sure shipping worked as expected – why didn’t Steorn vet Frank the same way it apparently vetted the other recipients?

    What are the odds that there has only ever been one O-Cube shipped to any customer and that it was deliberately sent without a battery? I don’t know. And, what’s more I can’t imagine why. What could the end game possibly be? But – it does all feel peculiar in a familiar way.

    Once the cover has finally been pried off by Frank’s burglar friend, it will be possible to obtain and attach a suitable replacement battery to it and so ascertain if, over the course of a week or so, its voltage rises far above the expected maximum – thus verifying Steorn’s claim. And, I suppose that it will be at least possible to compare the contents of Frank’s initial O-Cube against the contents of his replacement, when it arrives.

    • SG

      Agree with your first paragraph. As to your second, Shaun actually *did* tell Frank that he should take it apart, and has actually been giving some advice along those lines. As to your third paragraph, everything Steorn has ever done has been peculiar and quirky. They certainly march to their own beat. As to your last paragraph, it is simpler than that: just measure at the terminals of the Orbo power pack over a set period of time, and we’ll know whether the Steorn claims are absolutely real, exaggerated, or bogus (assuming the unit has not been damaged).

      • Blue Energy

        On your response to my second paragraph – yes, Shaun has been advising Frank as to how to open it. No question about that. But he did not make sure that Frank was either willing nor able to do so before it was sent – which would seem important if one was attempting to assure that a test shipment arrived successfully and in good shape. The other three apparently already all had access to the tool required to remove the bolts and had no serious difficulty with whatever it is that is preventing Frank from getting inside his. Third paragraph – absolutely agree. Fourth paragraph – your suggestion will tell us whether the claim that the orbo produces .4 W continuously forever is true. Attaching a battery will tell us whether the claim that the units, as they were shipped, were prone to over-charging or not is true. That was what I was suggesting could be tested at some point.

        • SG

          Touche. Although I’d prioritize testing the claim over testing the possible shipment delay excuse.

          • Blue Energy

            Agree.

        • DrD

          Apologies, I was talking nonesense when I said: “I expect the Li-ion is connected across the output. So all they did was measure the output voltage.” Obviously a Li-ion can’t ouput 5V so there must be a boost circuit to boost and presumably regulate the ouput and maybe that’s what went wrong with the ones at 8V IF we take everything at face value.

          • Blue Energy

            I hadn’t considered that. That would certainly make it easier and more plausible to believe that the three spontaneously measured and reported their devices output the day they received it without prior notice. If that were true then they would only have been expected to own a volt-ohm meter and know how to use it, as well as have access to the the pin-outs on a USB socket. I, at least, know people who don’t own one and wouldn’t know how to obtain pin-outs – but maybe that’s just my people. So, not assured but at least more likely.

          • Blue Energy

            No apology necessary – we’re just talking. And you make a very good point.

      • snowvoardphil

        Didn’t he do the testing with the powametre and the resistor ? It didnt give us much more insight to whats going on in there?

        • Ged

          Sadly, no. The meter just doesn’t work with the USB as expected. It won’t read while the leds will still work. So, had to use the led dongle thing instead which isn’t as good.

  • ecatworld

    Minor setback on the “open it up” project. The person who was going to help me had livestock killed by dogs, so has to deal with carcass disposal. So I had to move the appointment to tomorrow night.

    • Blue Energy

      Rats.

    • Ged

      I am sorry to hear about his loss. Always annoying to lose animals, especially to dogs.

      • DrD

        YES, Foxes just got my fathers (pet) hens and also my cousins and they were a rare bread (the hens). It happens a lot. The annoying thing is that they never eat them, they just tear them and leave them. Strange that in both the latest instances they left two alive having killed about 20.

        • Even foxes get tired I suppose. Last time a fox got into my wife’s enclosure it killed 15 out of 20 hens outright, and left 3 of the survivors seriously injured, two of which died later.

    • Sanjeev

      Obviously steorn sent those dogs to stop him from opening the ocube, which they advised should be opened.
      That proves it, it does not work.
      >>pathoskep mode off

      • Ged

        But it does prove Steorn has a highly effective dog training team.

        • Sanjeev

          Yes it does. Took 10 years to train them ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • Frank Acland

    Minor setback on the “open it up” project. The person who was going to help me had livestock killed by dogs, so has to deal with carcass disposal. So I had to move the appointment to tomorrow night.

    • Blue Energy

      Rats.

      • snowvoardphil

        Steorn got some dogs to do the killing I bet you!!

        • Blue Energy

          More likely it was Red Lectroids from the eighth dimension IMPERSONATING dogs trying to thwart Steorn from bringing humanity the technology that they know would solve all our problems and take us to the stars. And beyond. God only knows what they’ll do tonight… Keep your head on a swivel, Buckaroo.

    • Ged

      I am sorry to hear about his loss. Always annoying to lose animals, especially to dogs.