Now Thrust from the E-Cat? (Update: AR Trying to Make Propellantless Thrust Directly from The E-Cat)

I’m not sure what to make of this — and I am sure that some readers will put this into the “too good to be true” category, but here’s an new angle on the E-Cat from an exchange on the Journal of Nuclear Physics:

Giovanni
April 4, 2016 at 3:07 AM
Dear Andrea,
has your ecat-q ever produced (apart from heat, electricity and light) some kind of THRUST?
Best regards
Giovanni

Andrea Rossi
April 4, 2016 at 5:57 AM
Giovanni:
Yes.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Andrea Rossi is inviting a whole new batch of questions with this statement. When the questioner talks about thrust, I assume he means a reaction-less thrust or propulsion similar to what people are referring to with the Em-Drive, which has been tested by people at NASA and other places. Those who have claimed to measure the effect with the EmDrive have said it is very small, and the thrust mentioned here could be similarly small, and not practical.

Even so, this would of course be an astonishing additional feature of the E-Cat that Rossi has thrown out there now, but we have no data or details to go on right now; I hope we can learn more.

UPDATE:

Andrea Rossi was asked about the the “thrust” issue, and this was his response:

Andrea Rossi
April 4, 2016 at 7:00 PM
Mark Saker:
we are trying ( TRYING ) to make a propellantless thrust. Maybe we will not succeed.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

And another Q&A

Dear Andrea
sorry to bother you again, but could you clarify if the thrust you have mentioned can be obtained indirectly (for example using the electric power generated by the ecat-q to drive an engine) or DIRECTLY by the ecat-q?

Andrea Rossi
April 4, 2016 at 7:02 PM
Giovanni:
You never bother: our Readers never bother me.
We are trying “directly from an E-Cat QuarkX”, but we are very green on this issue ( green, in this case, means “immature” ).
Warm Regards,
A.R.

  • gdaigle

    I’m curious if Rossi has a mechanism in mind for the thrust? Radiation pressure? Photon emission? And what scale? mN or greater?

  • gdaigle

    I’m curious if Rossi has a mechanism in mind for the thrust? Radiation pressure? Photon emission? And what scale? mN or greater?

  • Ecco

    I’m really thinking thrust as in the EMDrive.

    If those resonant cavities had some sort of nanostructured active material on their internal walls and used hydrogen gas in a sealed construction they would in principle be similar to LENR reactors.

    Strong enough RF or microwaves might also be able to excite hydrogen in a more effective way than using just heat. Incidentally, Piantelli’s EP2754156A2 patent application does suggest the usage of:

    a radiofrequency, in particular microwaves

    in order to ionize (and excite) hydrogen gas for promoting the production of what he calls “H-” (which in my opinion it’s possibly what Holmlid and others define as “Hydrogen Rydberg Matter”).

    Perhaps real-time precision weight measurements could be included as an additional check in replication efforts to detect any possible macroscopic EMDrive-like thrust effect.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Some rather mundane explanations:

    1 – He misread „thrust“ as „trust“.
    2 – He meant thrust via heat (jet engine).
    3 – The produced magnetic fields attract external parts, causing motion if not everything is properly fixed.

    A considerable amount of thrust that does not correspond to #2-3 would be indeed a surprise, I think.

    • JiW

      “1 – He misread „thrust“ as „trust“.”

      or: “rust”

    • Edac

      Asking, “has your ecat-q ever produced some kind of TRUST?” make no sense at all.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Some rather mundane explanations:

    1 – He misread „thrust“ as „trust“.
    2 – He meant thrust via heat (jet engine).
    3 – The produced magnetic fields attract external parts, causing motion if not everything is properly fixed.

    A considerable amount of thrust that does not correspond to #2-3 would be indeed a surprise, I think.

    • JiW

      “1 – He misread „thrust“ as „trust“.”

      or: “rust”

    • Edac

      Asking, “has your ecat-q ever produced some kind of TRUST?” make no sense at all.

  • bachcole

    Frank, your headline says “Now” when I am almost certain that you meant “New”.

  • bachcole

    The measured thrust from the EMDrive is so small that it is unlikely that Rossi would have even noticed such a thrust. So, either he has more thrust or else we have a misunderstanding here.

    • Zephir

      The last experiments with EMDrive arranged by Tajmar/ NASA were highly suboptimal and not reflecting the Shawyer’s original design. Event the Chinese managed to measure it better. I would merely consider them as an intentional attempt to cover and obfuscate the situation.

  • It’s a pity Giovanni did not ask ‘thrust directly’.

  • It’s a pity Giovanni did not ask ‘thrust directly’.

  • DrD

    You wouldn’t want to stand behind a jet powered car.

    • JDM

      Maybe not in front of one either ( : o

  • DrD

    You wouldn’t want to stand behind a jet powered car.

    • JDM

      Maybe not in front of one either ( : o

  • Mike Fidler

    How about a gamma ray laser, that should get things moving or Deformed Space Time, if you could get that to resonate!!!

  • Mike Fidler

    How about a gamma ray laser, that should get things moving or Deformed Space Time, if you could get that to resonate!!!

  • Steve Swatman

    Does anyone think Mr Rossi might just enjoy sending people down the wrong path now and again, just to give people something to think/talk about, red herrings so to speak.

    • Ecco

      You might not believe this but lately I’ve been secretly speculating on possible EMDrive-like thrust effects in LENR devices, regardless of what Rossi wrote today. I would have liked to comment about that somewhere in the LENR blogosphere before Rossi did; too bad…

      • psi2u2

        Very interesting. So, to you, this is plausible?

        • Ecco

          I might be wrong in my thinking but I see EMDrives replications as “generalized” LENR devices comprising a diatomic gas, a means for exciting such gas (RF generator or magnetron in typical replications), an enclosed [and possibly structured] transition metal surface and optionally a dielectric surface in its proximity. I speculate that the excess heat effect in “actual” LENR devices is a side effect arising when the gas used is hydrogen/deuterium. It’s worth noting that Rydberg Matter (which I often mentioned being involved in LENR) can also be formed from gases other than hydrogen, but only with hydrogen nuclear anomalies and excess heat was observed in the case of Holmlid et al.

          My hunch is that what makes LENR devices work could also be what makes EMDrives work (just barely – they might be quite unoptimized devices as they currently are being fabricated).

          As far as I am aware of, very few people so far have checked for (or expected) changes in reactor weight not explainable by a loss of reactants in evidently working LENR experiments. It should not be too expensive to try checking out for this too; who knows if observing it is actually easier than excess heat.

          As a funny aside, I thought that the inexplicable weight loss Rossi claimed some time ago might turn out to be the result of some sort of EMDrive-like spacetime bending effect generated by the E-Cats in his container. Assuming this was actually the case, of course – perhaps Rossi actually meant something completely different with thrust generation.

  • Barbierir

    There’s no reason to assume that any thrust from the Ecat is related to emdrive type thrust

    • Zephir

      Actually it is, once we consider the AxilAxil’s monopole stuff (and the presence of magnetic field around LENR reactors reported by Defkalion and others, and the observation of spiral-like X-ray beams by Hagelstein and Tanzella, etc..)… The monopoles must violate the inertial reference frame invariance for being able to work like the monopoles. You may imagine them like the Fallaco solitons or vortex rings, ejected by cold fusion quantum tunnels (worm holes) at distance. And at the moment, when they violate it, then the principle of action and reaction would apply.

      • Barbierir

        maybe but I wouldn’t speculate much about it before Rossi answers further questions. The thrust could be a conventional one due to heat, etc…

    • bachcole

      My intuition assumes it. This is Twilight Zone stuff without the menace; it is something beyond our current knowing. I would assume that they are related, assuming that Rossi is saying EMDrive like stuff that we think that he is saying.

  • MLWerner

    On a few occasions, during development, some E-Cats went through Sudden Unplanned Dis-assembly. At that point some of the parts were THRUST into the nearest stationary surface.

    • Zephir

      And do you have a link to some source?

      • MLWerner

        I should have added 😉 Rossi has mentioned E-Cats that have failed suddenly during extreme testing resulting in fragments being tossed about. Nothing that was usable, but forces none the less. MFMP had their “Bang” event during testing also. I tried looking here http://demos.mattsev.com/rossiStream/ but couldn’t find a specific example.

        • Frank Acland

          Andrea Rossi

          April 4, 2016 at 7:00 PM
          Mark Saker:
          we are trying ( TRYING ) to make a propellantless thrust. Maybe we will not succeed.
          Warm Regards,

          A.R.

          • Brokeeper

            There must be a significant repulsive force stronger than current EM Drive forces or they would not even consider pursuing for jet engine designs. Unless, perhaps it is designed for long distant space travel. This is a lot to take in.

          • Axil Axil

            The E-Cat is producing negative vacuum energy. Here is what we can do with this negative energy.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyQ92SPWds

          • Julian Becker

            Not sure as I quickly went over the comments. Lets call it an EMcatx-Quark

          • Julian Becker

            …or short EMCat

          • Mats002

            If IH/Darden refuse to publish any part of ERV report for the original low temp Cat, this story will turn into a CATastrophe!

            I will take it as a negative outcome and that makes all claims from ‘Rossi says’ to look very foolish.

            The serious LENR community with COP a little over 1 without levitating features, having open data and published 3rd party reports with name and phone number will be the winners.

          • Julian Becker

            Anyway the question for me is: Can I go in a year or two into any electronics shop (or even buy it on the internet) and ask them to sell me an Ecat-QuarkX in the form of a light bulb. And hope it doesn’t drag out the cables when it wizzes off into hyperspace…

          • Axil Axil

            It is a warp drive.

          • Mats002

            I see you pushing all of your last chips onto the table now 😉

          • Axil Axil

            I have pushed them in along time ago and it looks like I made a good bet.

          • Mats002

            I hope so too… But I have to admit I do not see what you see right now.

          • Brokeeper

            “Scotty, What if I told you that your transwarp theory was correct?”

          • Ged

            Welp, I was wrong then, and it isn’t about only jet engine propulsion. This one is a bit hard to wrap the head around. I really can’t see how the e-cat reactor can participate in EM drive like effects, unless it’s all magnetic field related, which would then not work outside the Earth’s field.

  • MLWerner

    On a few occasions, during development, some E-Cats went through Sudden Unplanned Dis-assembly. At that point some of the parts were THRUST into the nearest stationary surface.

    • Zephir

      And do you have a link to some source?

      • MLWerner

        I should have added 😉 Rossi has mentioned E-Cats that have failed suddenly during extreme testing resulting in fragments being tossed about. Nothing that was usable, but forces none the less. MFMP had their “Bang” event during testing also. I tried looking here http://demos.mattsev.com/rossiStream/ but couldn’t find a specific example.

  • Zephir

    The question rather is, why someone suddenly asks just for thrust? And how Rossi could observe it? Too many questions are swirling and floating there…

    • DrD

      Most likely because he has just said he has already tested it for the jet engine.

      • Zephir

        Yes, the context of question would be important here. But I consider the scalar wave involvement in cold fusion quite seriously. For example the fact, that the cold fusion cannot be initiated by alternated current from grid, but it requires chopped current from some PWM regulator would also indicate the involvement of scalar wave physics. The scalar waves and monopoles would result from fast interrupting of EM field – not just alternating it.

        • Zephir

          Here’s how Nicola Tesla originally observed them:

          http://beforeitsnews.com/free-energy/2011/04/tesla-coils-unleash-the-aether-576485.html

          In his lab, Tesla utilize a dynamo connected to magnetic interrupter to produce very quick pulses of high voltage direct current. He noticed these pulses could completely vaporize thin wires. In addition, these pulses could produce what seemed like pressure waves that would induce stinging sensations. At first he thought these blasts waves were composed of tiny particles of the vaporized metal. This possibility was ruled out when he noticed nothing could shield them, including glass or even copper sheets. If these were high speed particles of some sort the glass should have shielded him from them, and if they were purely electrical the metal should have blocked them. However, they penetrated any barrier!

          • Zephir

            Please note that the experiments with exploding wires were also the way, in which whole the LENR research started by Wendt/Irion before ninety years:

            http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library/1922Wendt-Irion.pdf

            So that it may be quite possible, that even Nicola Tesla achieved some cold fusion/transmutation unwillingly during his experiments. The exploding wire would act in similar way, like the magnet pinch experiments with hot fusion (Focus fusion etc.).

            http://lppfusion.com/fusion-faq=

  • Zephir

    The question rather is, why someone suddenly would ask just for thrust? Is Giovanni (an Italian name, btw) one of Rossia collaborators dedicated to announce the new findings from E-Cat project under pretense of random questions at anonymous forum? And how/why Andrea Rossi could observe the thrust? Too many questions are rising and swirling in air here…

    • DrD

      Most likely because he has just said he has already tested it for the jet engine.
      See the above post, and ther were others.

      • Zephir

        Yes, the context of question would be important here. But I consider the scalar wave involvement in cold fusion quite seriously. For example the fact, that the cold fusion cannot be initiated by alternated current from grid, but it requires chopped current from some PWM regulator would also indicate the involvement of scalar wave physics. The scalar waves and monopoles would result from fast interrupting of EM field – not just alternating it.

        • Zephir

          Here’s how Nicola Tesla originally observed them:

          http://beforeitsnews.com/free-energy/2011/04/tesla-coils-unleash-the-aether-576485.html

          In his lab, Tesla utilize a dynamo connected to magnetic interrupter to produce very quick pulses of high voltage direct current. He noticed these pulses could completely vaporize thin wires. In addition, these pulses could produce what seemed like pressure waves that would induce stinging sensations. At first he thought these blasts waves were composed of tiny particles of the vaporized metal. This possibility was ruled out when he noticed nothing could shield them, including glass or even copper sheets. If these were high speed particles of some sort the glass should have shielded him from them, and if they were purely electrical the metal should have blocked them. However, they penetrated any barrier!

          • Zephir

            Please note that the experiments with exploding wires were also the way, in which whole the LENR research started by Wendt/Irion before ninety years:

            http://www.newenergytimes.com/Library/1922Wendt-Irion.pdf

            So that it may be quite possible, that even Nicola Tesla achieved some cold fusion/transmutation unwillingly during his experiments. The exploding wire would act in similar way, like the magnet pinch experiments with hot fusion (Focus fusion etc.).

            http://lppfusion.com/fusion-faq=

  • nietsnie

    He was working with an engineer on the potential of an e-cat powered turbine engine. Maybe that’s what he means.

  • nietsnie

    He was working with an engineer on the potential of an e-cat powered turbine engine. Maybe that’s what he means.

  • DrD

    Gerard McEk
    April 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    In the past you mentioned that you hope to realize a QuarkX Jet combination in 2016.

    1. Are you progressing on that?

    2. Can you tell us when you think to start testing?

    3. At what energy level do you intend to test it?

    4. Is the QuarkX developed far enough for this application?

    Thanks and kind regards, Gerard

    Andrea Rossi
    April 3, 2016 at 7:06 PM
    Gerard McEk:

    1- yes

    2- we already did with the E-Cat QuarkX

    3- we test modules of 500 W, later we’ll pile them up

    4- no, this is why we are at the preliminar R&D phase

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • DrD

    Gerard McEk
    April 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    In the past you mentioned that you hope to realize a QuarkX Jet combination in 2016.

    1. Are you progressing on that?

    2. Can you tell us when you think to start testing?

    3. At what energy level do you intend to test it?

    4. Is the QuarkX developed far enough for this application?

    Thanks and kind regards, Gerard

    Andrea Rossi
    April 3, 2016 at 7:06 PM
    Gerard McEk:

    1- yes

    2- we already did with the E-Cat QuarkX

    3- we test modules of 500 W, later we’ll pile them up

    4- no, this is why we are at the preliminar R&D phase

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • Zephir

    The last experiments with EMDrive arranged by Tajmar/ NASA were highly suboptimal and not reflecting the Shawyer’s original design. Event the Chinese managed to measure it better. I would merely consider them as an intentional attempt to cover and obfuscate the situation.

  • Maybe he just read/understood “trust”?

  • Maybe he just read/understood “trust”?

  • Hi all

    All heat engines can create thrust. Whether an electric source driving a turbofan or a nuclear source heating water in to steam and shooting it down the nozzle of a jet or rocket engine.

    Kind Regards walker

    • SG

      Yes, that is my interpretation as well. The history of his statements tend to support this.

    • US_Citizen71

      An EDF powered by DC is where I would begin to experiment with a QuarkX and propulsion.

      As a side note aviation is moving towards electric flight:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_E-Fan

  • Hi all

    All heat engines can create thrust. Whether via generated electricity to an electric source driving a turbofan or a nuclear source heating water in to steam and shooting it down the nozzle of a jet or rocket engine.

    Kind Regards walker

  • Private Citizen

    April 4, 2016 at 3:07 AM
    Dear Andrea,

    Does your ECat-X give back rubs ?

    Best regards
    Private Citizen

    Andrea Rossi
    April 4, 2016 at 5:57 AM
    Private:

    Yes.

    But while ECat-X undergoes a secret 3 yr. test, I’m most excited about new ECat-Y, which does time travel and tastes like bacon (F7)

    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • LION

      How lovely to see his sense of HUMOR, even while engaged in such IMPORTANT work. I SALUTE you Andria, RESPECT, RESPECT, RESPECT.

    • orsobubu

      bwahhhahha … rubs… great

  • Stephen

    I wonder if LENR Ni transmutations are due to weak force interactions such as stimulated EC or Beta decay and the energy released is ultimately responsible for some of the heat. What would the energy released in the neutrinos be? Could this be directional in some circumstances and lead to thrust due to neutrino emission? A kind of Neutrino Drive?

    Putting my over imaginative SciFi head on

    Could stimulation (say around 100keV or maybe 66.9 keV maybe from K alpha characteristic X-Ray emission from tungsten say) of normally stable Cu63 lead to stimulated EC to Ni63 (Qec = -66.9 keV), could the Ni63 (normal half-life 101 years, Q value +66.9 keV) be stimulated to faster beta decay back to Cu63 generating beta electricity and neutrino thrust?

    Could in the right kind of electric field or alignment the emission to beta or neutrinos be optimised in some way?

    Just some fun I like the idea of a neutrino thruster. Still would be energetically balanced though unless LENR can provide the stimulation.

    (if Neutrinos are emitted it would be cool if we can use them in some useful way, They would would not burn a hole in the carpet at least.)

    • Stephen

      On a related LENR point.

      Perhaps stimulation on some nuclei leads to energy balanced stimulated weak reactions.

      But Perhaps Stimulation along with H- ions as per Piantelli and MFMP leads to LENR. Assuming only group 10 elements are initially involved:

      (Normally on particle absorption conservation of energy and momentum needs to be met. With high energy interactions such as the r-process normally a neutron or other nucleon is ejected. If lower energy absorption somehow occurs there is not sufficient energy to eject a nucleon)

      Could Ni isotopes < Ni62 + H- ions go to Ni62 via immediate stimulated EC following absorption of the proton emitting Internal bremsstrahlung from EC with the absorbed high energy proton along with neutrinos instead of gamma?

      Then maybe with no more stimulation the Ni62 does not absorb further protons since Cu63 is normally stable and normally has a negative Q value for all emissions (EC, Beta, Alpha) and so cannot emit a particle to conserve momentum and energy, but instead just ejects the proton without neutrino emission as proposed by Bob of MFMP and Piantelli,

      Could Ni62 with external Stimulation and H- ions go to Cu63, which goes to Ni63 then to Cu64 on H- absorption which goes to Ni64 and Zn64?

      Would this explain the Copper and Zinc seen in some experiments but only Ni62 seen in others and high counts of at 64 seen in some perhaps preprocessed fuels?

      Could Ni64 with even more additional external Stimulation go to Cu65?

      Would this explain increase in relative abundance of Cu65 compared to Cu63 seen in paper: Search For Nuclear Ashes In Electrochemical Experiments by Violante et al. and noted by Bob in the recent MFMP presentation?

      Of course this is only a precursor to LENR+. With Li7 going to Be8 and 2 alpha, much more energy and no beta or neutrino emission would occur. (and no neutrino thrust in this case)

    • Stephen

      I suppose if an electron was captured from the S1 or S2 orbital which are spherical, it would be difficult to define a direction component or dependence or generate a directional emission?

      I wonder if it was captured from one of the P2 orbitals though if a directional effect could be exploited under a electric or magnetic field or something?

      On the other hand perhaps the structure and orientation in nucleus itself is more important than the electron orbitals?

  • Andrew

    I’m pretty sure that this one is lost in translation. I honestly don’t think that Rossi means it creates thrust directly.

    • Zephir

      …apart from heat, electricity and light…?

      • Andreas Moraitis

        That could have been spectacular, but nevertheless easily explainable phenomena. I do not think that he has seen flying E-Cats.

    • Stephen

      Yup I guess you are right… probably its thermal thrust or something… It will be amazing if its something else.

  • Andrew

    I’m pretty sure that this one is lost in translation. I honestly don’t think that Rossi means it creates thrust directly.

    • Zephir

      …apart from heat, electricity and light…?

    • Stephen

      Yup I guess you are right… probably its thermal thrust or something… It will be amazing if its something else.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Silvio Caggia April 4, 2016 at 8:09 AM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,
    Some years ago I asked you if you noticed some gravitational anomaly near e-cat, and you answered no.
    Now has someone asked if ecat-q ever produced (apart from heath,
    electricity and light) some kind of THRUST, and you answered yes.
    Did something change or you didn’t notice the phenomenon before?
    Ingenuos Regards
    Silvio

    AR: No”

    So this thrust should be related to the jet engine.

    • I could not make any logical conclusion based on the answer. Not even if the answer had been Yes.

      • artefact

        Then see the post above with Rossis answer: “I know what is the thrust of a jet”

    • Caggia made the classic mistake when questioning Rossi of combining two questions; ‘did something change?’ and ‘(perhaps) you didn’t notice the phenomenon before?’. Rossi answered only one question, leaving the reader to either guess which, or to assume (probably incorrectly) that it was no to both.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Silvio Caggia April 4, 2016 at 8:09 AM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,
    Some years ago I asked you if you noticed some gravitational anomaly near e-cat, and you answered no.
    Now has someone asked if ecat-q ever produced (apart from heath,
    electricity and light) some kind of THRUST, and you answered yes.
    Did something change or you didn’t notice the phenomenon before?
    Ingenuos Regards
    Silvio

    AR: No”

    So this thrust should be related to the jet engine.

    • I could not make any logical conclusion based on the answer. Not even if the answer had been Yes.

      • artefact

        Then see the post above with Rossis answer: “I know what is the thrust of a jet”

    • Caggia made the classic mistake when questioning Rossi of combining two questions; ‘did something change?’ and ‘(perhaps) you didn’t notice the phenomenon before?’. Rossi answered only one question, leaving the reader to either guess which, or to assume (probably incorrectly) that it was no to both.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Giovanni April 4, 2016 at 9:49 AM
    Dear Andrea
    Just to be accurate: I mean THRUST as the translation of the italian word “spinta”.
    Is this Thrust directly obtained by the e-cat q or indirectly via other means (heat, magnetic fields, etc.)?
    Many many regards, Giovanni

    Andrea Rossi April 4, 2016 at 11:22 AM
    Giovanni:
    I know what is the thrust of a jet.
    We are still in a preliminar R&D phase and the description will be given after we will have made a working product.
    Warm Regards, A.R.

    • Ecco

      Giovanni stressed that he meant thrust as in jet engines and Rossi acknowledged that he knows the meaning of thrust as in jet engines. (……)

      http://i.imgur.com/RUCTLjH.png

      • Ged

        So then, indeed, he was talking about Jet propulsion with the e-cat’s heat (and/or electrical) output. The news then is that he’s likely already pulled it off in R&D, based on the “yes” and his answer here.

        • Ecco

          The word “thrust” is also routinely used – albeit incorrectly – to define the propulsive force generated by RF resonant cavity “thrusters” (e.g. the EMDrive), which is likely what Giovanni wanted to know.

  • LION

    Main stream science has always insisted on explaining all current experimental data within the Standard Model, or labeling it voodoo science. The problem with this stance is that it fails to take into account that which is yet to be discovered, which unseats all previous prejudice. However NATURE will continue in the ways which suit HER best, and we poor humans will have to learn to delight in her MYSTERY.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3522827/Mysterious-new-state-matter-discovered-Quantum-spin-liquid-seen-real-world-material-40-YEARS-predicted-make-computers-superfast.html

    I remember many years ago reading about a Scientist who DARED to suggest that he had seen evidence for fractional charge, and who was roundly dismissed. I wonder how his funding applications went after that??????? I probably read the article in U.k. New Scientist.
    The Most Important thing about Cold Fusion, LENR is that it works and represents a New HOPE and New Beginning for us all, if we spend xxx time finding a strong theory, so be it. In the mean time LET THE E_CATS ROLL OFF THE PRODUCTION LINE.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Fractional charges are part of the Standard Model. Just Google “quarks” (not Rossi’s).

      • LION

        My post should of read-( evidence of fractional charge of an electron ) and may be related to the memory of this–

        https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17824005-400-fraction-man/

        but I cant say for certain as I only have New Scientist hard copy, which is presently in boxes in storage. However thanks to you and Obvious for posting.

    • Obvious

      Please enjoy the Fractional Quantum Hall Effect.

      “The existence of FQH liquids indicates that there is a whole new world beyond the paradigm of symmetry breaking, waiting to be explored. The FQH effect opened up a new chapter in condensed matter physics.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect

  • LION

    Main stream science has always insisted on explaining all current experimental data within the Standard Model, or labeling it voodoo science. The problem with this stance is that it fails to take into account that which is yet to be discovered, which unseats all previous prejudice. However NATURE will continue in the ways which suit HER best, and we poor humans will have to learn to delight in her MYSTERY.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3522827/Mysterious-new-state-matter-discovered-Quantum-spin-liquid-seen-real-world-material-40-YEARS-predicted-make-computers-superfast.html

    I remember many years ago reading about a Scientist who DARED to suggest that he had seen evidence for fractional charge, and who was roundly dismissed. I wonder how his funding applications went after that??????? I probably read the article in U.k. New Scientist.
    The Most Important thing about Cold Fusion, LENR is that it works and represents a New HOPE and New Beginning for us all, if we spend xxx time finding a strong theory, so be it. In the mean time LET THE E_CATS ROLL OFF THE PRODUCTION LINE.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Fractional charges are part of the Standard Model. Just Google “quarks” (not Rossi’s).

      • LION

        My post should of read-( evidence of fractional charge of an electron ) and may be related to the memory of this–

        https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17824005-400-fraction-man/

        but I cant say for certain as I only have New Scientist hard copy, which is presently in boxes in storage. However thanks to you and Obvious for posting.

    • Obvious

      Please enjoy the Fractional Quantum Hall Effect.

      “Experiments have reported results that specifically support the understanding that there are fractionally-charged quasiparticles in an electron gas under FQHE conditions.”….
      “The existence of FQH liquids indicates that there is a whole new world beyond the paradigm of symmetry breaking, waiting to be explored. The FQH effect opened up a new chapter in condensed matter physics.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect

  • Well clearly if the e-cat underlying mechanism is a Rydberg matter phenomonon then as per Holmlid muons are being emitted and are passing out of the reactor, many such muons (or mystery muon-like mischugenon particles) would offer ‘thrust.’ Now whether the Rydberg chamber can be configured like an EM drive is a question pertaining to optimizing that thrust. But the reality inside the e-cat is that ‘di-lithium hydride’ aka ‘dilithium crystals’ are surely present! 🙂

    • Zephir

      /* Well clearly if the e-cat underlying mechanism is a Rydberg matter
      phenomonon then as per Holmlid muons are being emitted and are passing
      out of the reactor, many such muons (or mystery muon-like mischugenon
      particles) would offer ‘thrust.’ */

      In reality it is clear nonsense instead: the E-Cat doesn’t produce a muons – and even if it would, then the measurable thrust would require pretty high flux of muons, making everything in the lab extremely radioactive.

    • US_Citizen71

      If Lithium metal is being added there likely are are some Trilithium Nitride crystals in the chamber as well. : )

  • The Shawyer EM drive may be small now, but there is a separate Chinese effort that is further ahead of the NASA effort, and it may produce more thrust. The last time I checked, the stage was set for the Chinese to build an EM drive that can levitate itself this year, but I guess it could be delayed. They were working on it before anyone in the west thought that Shawyer was anything but a crank, so they are probably further ahead. This thrust could also be connected to the work of David Pares, who is trying to build a real warp drive, like in Star Trek, in his garage. Fabiani did make an interesting comment about possibly building spaceships before he is dead…

  • bfast

    I think way too much is being read into Rossi’s comment.

    • Ged

      I fear that has been happening a lot lately.

      But I suppose part of that is because people are antsy and on the edge of their seats from the anticipation of the ERV report being “soon”, but not being explicitly defined when. So, it’s easy to latch on to every small happening or scrap of info with all that excess enthusiasm built up for the ERV. It’s similar to how it would be utter torture to foreknow the week of ones death, without knowing the hour.

  • bfast

    I think way too much is being read into Rossi’s comment.

    • Ged

      I fear that has been happening a lot lately.

      But I suppose part of that is because people are antsy and on the edge of their seats from the anticipation of the ERV report being “soon”, but not being explicitly defined when. So, it’s easy to latch on to every small happening or scrap of info with all that excess enthusiasm built up for the ERV. It’s similar to how it would be utter torture to foreknow the week of ones death, without knowing the hour.

    • Bruce__H

      I strongly agree.

      You know the simplest explanation for the ever burgeoning properties of Rossi’s device is that he is just making it all up.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    When Rossi speaks of thrust, we not talking directly from the device, but using the heat from the device. Just in case people don’t know, a JET engine works on heat (who would have thunk???).

    Rossi quite some time ago reversed his position on the eat being able to produce usable thrust for aircraft engines – this “change” of heart occurred around the time of the hot-cat.

    And Rossi flat out admitted he’s working with an engineer on the feasibility of using the ecat to power a JET engine.

    So the fact of Rossi working on using ecats for JET engines was revealed QUITE some time ago.

    However, this admission means that some type of prototype was built and the ecat thus has produced thrust.

    On the other hand, it could be steam exiting a nozzle during VERY early tests, and by a physical definition, steam existing a nozzle as a result of heat from the ecat is thrust.

    So the question to Rossi now should be:

    This mention of thrust, is this the result of the testing collaboration with an engineer in the aircraft industry for a JET engine, or is this thrust you mention simply steam exiting a nozzle as occurred
    in early e-cat demos?

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • I think the big question is whether the thrust is EmDrive type (resonant cavity thrust or something else enigmatic) or heat generated thrust (jet engine or steam nozzle or anything like that). My guess is it’s heat generated (the E-Cat X based jet engine under test).

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Well, tests for the EM drive are quite difficult, and they prove nothing until such tests occur outside or away from the earth’s magnetic field.

        An electronic compass needle moves rather easily and produces a force – even in a vacuum. However that same compass needle in space does not produce a force because there is no earths magnetic field to work against.

        Way, but WAY WAY too early to make any conclusion about the EM drive until such time it is tested away from the earths magnetic field. Until such time the EM drive is tested in conditions that are “more exciting” then watching a compass needle move, then we have
        nothing more than watching a compass needle move!

        >My guess is it’s heat generated (the
        E-Cat X based jet engine under test).

        Yes, I quite sure most here beyond the age of 5 years would agree with your statement!
        😉

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Fully agree with that. Now that everyone is convinced it is jet engine thrust, there is no point asking whether it is a steam nozzle trust.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Actually, there is!!
            Not so easy! The problem is if Rossi answers no to some prototype engine, then we STILL be guessing what he means by thrust.

            So “very likely” he talking about the collaboration with the aerospace engineer, but he might not be.

            It is a truth that steam escaping a nozzle is thrust and the ecat has produced steam escaping from a nozzle.

            With Rossi being so intelligent, it dead obviously that 2 + 2 = 4, and that steam escaping a nozzle is thrust.

            So in effect, it actually takes someone with my brilliance and logical thinking to ask the right question – else you not get an answer that pins Rossi down.

            The simple matter is it not obvious to anyone here that simple steam escaping from a nozzle is thrust until I pointed this out!

            In fact it was not obvious to the person asking the question either! The simple matter is the day we heard that steam came out of a nozzle from the ecat is the day we ALL SHOULD HAVE known the ecat has produced thrust.

            Bottom line:

            Ask a question that an unemployed drunken rodeo clown SHOULD already know the answer to – you get an answer that is no better than the question.

            We all knew the ecat produced thrust, so the question had to be phrased different to eliminate the obvious answer that steam coming out of a nozzle is thrust.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Ecco

            Technically you might be right but the original question implicitly referred to the reaction byproducts (heat, light, electricity), rather than what could be done with them.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            I did not see much in Rossi’s answer that restricted the context that would eliminate using a working fluid. (the question might have intended to, but Rossi never did).

            Rossi did clear this up by stating he was talking about using a working fluid (air, or water), which is exactly what I deduced and stated before Rossi made that clear.

            Like I said, what Rossi meant was 100% clear by using logical reasoning, and what I stated thus turned out to be correct. He was talking about a fluid (air, water)

            If you drop a hammer, I don’t need you tell me it going to hit the ground – logic and reason can foretell that’s going to happen. Rossi near always assumes people can think this way.

            Of course some believe in fantasies like our CO2 is causing dangerous warming, and some even believe the science fiction of black holes.

            When a person’s basic knowledge ismessed up, and then combined with lack of logical reasoning (a mind trained in philosophy), then you get the wild speculative answers we witnessed here in place of rational thinking. It is not my intention to be critical of anyone here, and I am no more the messenger then telling you that 2 = 2. (so I enjoy the comments, ideas and suggestions by all here!).

            I also stated that the ecat could be used for light since that “logically” is the only way the ecat could function, and low and behold after that I stated as such, Rossi confirmed.

            As long as one keeps their mind to rational thought, then it rather easy to make predictions and statements that are going by logical reasoning be true!

            It really becomes like thinking ahead moves in a chess game.

            It is science that must submit to reason and logic, not the other way around!

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • US_Citizen71

            Ask vague questions get vague answers. I would think by now we would understand that English being Rossi’s 2nd language and his caginess sometimes produces quotes that can have a large degree of interpretation. Artefact’s post below, http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/04/now-thrust-from-the-e-cat/#comment-2607128616 hopefully puts to rest this trip into the dreamworld of everyone’s imagination over the interpretation of Rossi’s comment on the QuarkX producing thrust.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Indeed. One possibility is that Rossi might be talking about MHD propulsion, for which one needs magnetic field, DC power and ionisation of air. Magnet can be ordinary magnet, DC power comes from E-cat and maybe if the cat has a window it can also ionise air also. Such device could make air move without having any moving parts.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Sorry, brokeeper already said it. Should read the comments before posting, but there are 143…

          • US_Citizen71

            I would think MHD would work better with seawater since it has dissolved ions to move around. For air I would think you would need stronger ionizing radiation than what is so far being claimed for LENR or need to heat the air to plasma. But, I am no expert on the subject.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Agreed except last sentence;-)

          • US_Citizen71

            Thanks, but I just like to learn new things and science has been a passion of mine since youth, so I know a few things. : )

          • Stephen

            Maybe at hypersonic speeds in air the ionized layer in the boundary layer of the bow shock can be utilized. Perhaps after detachment and shaping of the shock with an ion spike to avoid heating the vehicle etc.

            Perhaps micro LENR devices in the wing surface can locally ionize and shape the surface the air in its vicinity at sub hypersonic speeds too.

          • DrD

            But steam is a propellant. He said his is NOT using propellant.

        • Oops! My 5-year old statement was premature. 🙂 Rossi is really “trying (TRYING) to make a propellantless thrust”.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    When Rossi speaks of thrust, we not talking directly from the device, but using the heat from the device. Just in case people don’t know, a JET engine works on heat (who would have thunk???).

    Rossi quite some time ago reversed his position on the eat being able to produce usable thrust for aircraft engines – this “change” of heart occurred around the time of the hot-cat.

    And Rossi flat out admitted he’s working with an engineer on the feasibility of using the ecat to power a JET engine.

    So the fact of Rossi working on using ecats for JET engines was revealed QUITE some time ago.

    However, this admission means that some type of prototype was built and the ecat thus has produced thrust.

    On the other hand, it could be steam exiting a nozzle during VERY early tests, and by a physical definition, steam existing a nozzle as a result of heat from the ecat is thrust.

    So the question to Rossi now should be:

    This mention of thrust, is this the result of the testing collaboration with an engineer in the aircraft industry for a JET engine, or is this thrust you mention simply steam exiting a nozzle as occurred
    in early e-cat demos?

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • I think the big question is whether the thrust is EmDrive type (resonant cavity thrust or something else enigmatic) or heat generated thrust (jet engine or steam nozzle or anything like that). My guess is it’s heat generated (the E-Cat X based jet engine under test).

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Well, tests for the EM drive are quite difficult, and they prove nothing until such tests occur outside or away from the earth’s magnetic field.

        An electronic compass needle moves rather easily and produces a force – even in a vacuum. However that same compass needle in space does not produce a force because there is no earths magnetic field to work against.

        Way, but WAY WAY too early to make any conclusion about the EM drive until such time it is tested away from the earths magnetic field. Until such time the EM drive is tested in conditions that are “more exciting” then watching a compass needle move, then we have
        nothing more than watching a compass needle move!

        >My guess is it’s heat generated (the
        E-Cat X based jet engine under test).

        Yes, I quite sure most here beyond the age of 5 years would agree with your statement!
        😉

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Fully agree with that. Now that everyone is convinced it is jet engine thrust, there is no point asking whether it is a steam nozzle thrust.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Actually, there is!!
            Not so easy! The problem is if Rossi answers no to some prototype engine, then we STILL be guessing what he means by thrust.

            So “very likely” he talking about the collaboration with the aerospace engineer, but he might not be.

            It is a truth that steam escaping a nozzle is thrust and the ecat has produced steam escaping from a nozzle.

            With Rossi being so intelligent, it dead obviously that 2 + 2 = 4, and that steam escaping a nozzle is thrust.

            So in effect, it actually takes someone with my brilliance and logical thinking to ask the right question – else you not get an answer that pins Rossi down.

            The simple matter is it not obvious to anyone here that simple steam escaping from a nozzle is thrust until I pointed this out!

            In fact it was not obvious to the person asking the question either! The simple matter is the day we heard that steam came out of a nozzle from the ecat is the day we ALL SHOULD HAVE known the ecat has produced thrust.

            Bottom line:

            Ask a question that an unemployed drunken rodeo clown SHOULD already know the answer to – you get an answer that is no better than the question.

            We all knew the ecat produced thrust, so the question had to be phrased different to eliminate the obvious answer that steam coming out of a nozzle is thrust.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Ecco

            Technically you might be right but the original question implicitly referred to the reaction byproducts (heat, light, electricity), rather than what could be done with them.

          • Bob K

            Fulvio Fabiani did say “I have seen things that you people would not believe.”

          • Andreas Moraitis

            That could have been spectacular, but nevertheless easily explainable phenomena. I do not think that he has seen flying E-Cats.

          • Samec

            What is unbelievable? Gravity modification aka thrust.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            I did not see much in Rossi’s answer that restricted the context that would eliminate using a working fluid. (the question might have intended to, but Rossi never did).

            Rossi did clear this up by stating he was talking about using a working fluid (air, or water), which is exactly what I deduced and stated before Rossi made that clear.

            Like I said, what Rossi meant was 100% clear by using logical reasoning, and what I stated thus turned out to be correct. He was talking about a fluid (air, water)

            If you drop a hammer, I don’t need you tell me it going to hit the ground – logic and reason can foretell that’s going to happen. Rossi near always assumes people can think this way.

            Of course some believe in fantasies like our CO2 is causing dangerous warming, and some even believe the science fiction of black holes.

            When a person’s basic knowledge ismessed up, and then combined with lack of logical reasoning (a mind trained in philosophy), then you get the wild speculative answers we witnessed here in place of rational thinking. It is not my intention to be critical of anyone here, and I am no more the messenger then telling you that 2 = 2. (so I enjoy the comments, ideas and suggestions by all here!).

            I also stated that the ecat could be used for light since that “logically” is the only way the ecat could function, and low and behold after that I stated as such, Rossi confirmed.

            As long as one keeps their mind to rational thought, then it rather easy to make predictions and statements that are going by logical reasoning be true!

            It really becomes like thinking ahead moves in a chess game.

            It is science that must submit to reason and logic, not the other way around!

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • DrD

            But steam is a propellant. He said his is NOT using propellant.

        • Oops! My 5-year old statement was premature. 🙂 Rossi is really “trying (TRYING) to make a propellantless thrust”.

  • Axil Axil

    I cover this issue in this post as follows:

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2939-An-open-letter-to-Professor-Gary-T-Horowitz/?postID=15897&highlight=negative%2Bvacuum#post15897

    “I am interested in how rapid if not almost instantaneous radioactive stabilization of radioactive isotopes occurs and only stable isotopes result from nuclear reactions caused by this nanoplasmonic based effect. I am impressed by the possible role of negative vacuum energy in this regard as described in the paper

    “Effects of Vacuum Fluctuation Suppression on Atomic Decay Rates”.

    At: arxiv.org/pdf/0907.1638v1.pdf

    In explanation from these experiments, nano geometry of particles converts light energy from the laser into vortex motion of electrons/light hydrids(polaritons) in a nanoplasmonic “Dark Mode” soliton produced on the surface of the gold nanoparticles. Without the gold nanoparticles, laser light alone is ineffectual in producing these effects in this type of experiment.

    The powerful emission of a nano-scale magnetic anapole beam by the soliton produces the separation of the vacuum into positive and negative energy zones. Through quantum fluctuation damping, the magnetic beam also forces the entanglement of the soliton with the U232 nucleus by pumping high levels of magnetic energy into the vacuum. This vacuum energy pumping using EMF energy from microwaves also happens in the EmDrive system under development by NASA where some laser beam probes exceed the speed of light as these beams pass through negative energy zones.

    In another thought, action of nano sized particles and structures could be based on time acceleration by those nano structures as a result of negative vacuum energy production.”

  • Axil Axil

    I cover this issue in this post as follows:

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2939-An-open-letter-to-Professor-Gary-T-Horowitz/?postID=15897&highlight=negative%2Bvacuum#post15897

    “I am interested in how rapid if not almost instantaneous radioactive stabilization of radioactive isotopes occurs and only stable isotopes result from nuclear reactions caused by this nanoplasmonic based effect. I am impressed by the possible role of negative vacuum energy in this regard as described in the paper

    “Effects of Vacuum Fluctuation Suppression on Atomic Decay Rates”.

    At: arxiv.org/pdf/0907.1638v1.pdf

    In explanation from these experiments, nano geometry of particles converts light energy from the laser into vortex motion of electrons/light hydrids(polaritons) in a nanoplasmonic “Dark Mode” soliton produced on the surface of the gold nanoparticles. Without the gold nanoparticles, laser light alone is ineffectual in producing these effects in this type of experiment.

    The powerful emission of a nano-scale magnetic anapole beam by the soliton produces the separation of the vacuum into positive and negative energy zones. Through quantum fluctuation damping, the magnetic beam also forces the entanglement of the soliton with the U232 nucleus by pumping high levels of magnetic energy into the vacuum. This vacuum energy pumping using EMF energy from microwaves also happens in the EmDrive system under development by NASA where some laser beam probes exceed the speed of light as these beams pass through negative energy zones.

    In another thought, action of nano sized particles and structures could be based on time acceleration by those nano structures as a result of negative vacuum energy production.”

  • Axil Axil

    Here is another post here at ECW

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/01/04/new-report-of-anomalous-thrust-from-emdrive-replicator-artefact/

    Forget solid, liquid, and gas: there are in fact more than 500 phases of matter. In a major paper in a recent issue of Science, Perimeter Faculty member Xiao-Gang Wen reveals a modern reclassification of all of them.

    Condensed matter physics — the branch of physics responsible for discovering and describing most of these phases — has traditionally classified phases by the way their fundamental building blocks — usually atoms — are arranged. The key is something called symmetry.

    To understand symmetry, imagine flying through liquid water in an impossibly tiny ship: the atoms would swirl randomly around you and every direction — whether up, down, or sideways — would be the same. The technical term for this is “symmetry” — and liquids are highly symmetric. Crystal ice, another phase of water, is less symmetric. If you flew through ice in the same way, you would see the straight rows of crystalline structures passing as regularly as the girders of an unfinished skyscraper. Certain angles would give you different views. Certain paths would be blocked, others wide open. Ice has much symmetry — every “floor” and every “room” would look the same, for instance — but physicists would say that the high symmetry of liquid water is broken.

    Topological order is a more general understanding of quantum phases and the transitions between them. The dances that the various types of particles go through defined the new world that is created. In the new framework, the phases of matter were described not by the patterns of symmetry in the ground state, but by the patterns of a decidedly quantum property — entanglement. When two particles are entangled, certain measurements performed on one of them immediately affect the other, no matter how far apart the particles are. The patterns of such quantum effects, unlike the patterns of the atomic positions, could not be described by their symmetries. If you were to describe a city as a topologically ordered state from the cockpit of your impossibly tiny ship, you’d no longer be describing the girders and buildings of the crystals you passed, but rather invisible connections between them — rather like describing a city based on the information flow in its telephone system.

    There are experiments in condensed matter physics that produce results that are inconsistent with the proton collider mindset. Condensed matter produces experimental results that contravene the world of the standard model because of the ways that matter moves and interacts.

    Chemists have at there disposal all 500 states of matter to work with. The experimental results that they produce are ignore by main stream physics because they do not fit into the standard model paradigm. But there is a class of issues in physics that need these new multiworld insights to solve. When physics takes all 500 states of matter into account, then the currently intractable issues that now face science might have a change for resolution.

    https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfWfD9RRvtPOTqXwbc_53TL9V2aphpDgh95OQr_eWfpWRHhRXC

    In the EmDrive, as a result of the particular shape of the cone and the RF antenna, the flow of photons in a particular pattern causes a buildup of EMF in a fixed region of space in a standing wave. This forces the vacuum to compensate with a volume of associated negative energy to develop. Negative vacuum energy produces a repulsive force called dark gravity. IMHO, this is where the push of the EmDrive comes from.

    See for background

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/negativeenergy/negativeenergy.htm.
    ————————————

    also

    If we force a tennis ball to the bottom of the ocean, the ball would collapse. Does that mean that the pressure inside the ball is causing the ball to collapse?

    No, it is the pressure outside the ball that is crushing the ball.

    There is a case where negative vacuum energy produces a repulsive force. That case is produced when the medium in which negative vacuum energy occurs is a special type of liquid.

    The vacuum is viewed by some people and me as a spin net liquid. There is a lot of spin in the vacuum but that spin always cancels itself out to remain on the average zero.

    In this liquid environment, negative vacuum energy is repulsive.

    Repulsive Casimir and Casimir-Polder Forces

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.6415v2.pdf

  • Axil Axil

    Here is another post here at ECW

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/01/04/new-report-of-anomalous-thrust-from-emdrive-replicator-artefact/

    Forget solid, liquid, and gas: there are in fact more than 500 phases of matter. In a major paper in a recent issue of Science, Perimeter Faculty member Xiao-Gang Wen reveals a modern reclassification of all of them.

    Condensed matter physics — the branch of physics responsible for discovering and describing most of these phases — has traditionally classified phases by the way their fundamental building blocks — usually atoms — are arranged. The key is something called symmetry.

    To understand symmetry, imagine flying through liquid water in an impossibly tiny ship: the atoms would swirl randomly around you and every direction — whether up, down, or sideways — would be the same. The technical term for this is “symmetry” — and liquids are highly symmetric. Crystal ice, another phase of water, is less symmetric. If you flew through ice in the same way, you would see the straight rows of crystalline structures passing as regularly as the girders of an unfinished skyscraper. Certain angles would give you different views. Certain paths would be blocked, others wide open. Ice has much symmetry — every “floor” and every “room” would look the same, for instance — but physicists would say that the high symmetry of liquid water is broken.

    Topological order is a more general understanding of quantum phases and the transitions between them. The dances that the various types of particles go through defined the new world that is created. In the new framework, the phases of matter were described not by the patterns of symmetry in the ground state, but by the patterns of a decidedly quantum property — entanglement. When two particles are entangled, certain measurements performed on one of them immediately affect the other, no matter how far apart the particles are. The patterns of such quantum effects, unlike the patterns of the atomic positions, could not be described by their symmetries. If you were to describe a city as a topologically ordered state from the cockpit of your impossibly tiny ship, you’d no longer be describing the girders and buildings of the crystals you passed, but rather invisible connections between them — rather like describing a city based on the information flow in its telephone system.

    There are experiments in condensed matter physics that produce results that are inconsistent with the proton collider mindset. Condensed matter produces experimental results that contravene the world of the standard model because of the ways that matter moves and interacts.

    Chemists have at there disposal all 500 states of matter to work with. The experimental results that they produce are ignore by main stream physics because they do not fit into the standard model paradigm. But there is a class of issues in physics that need these new multiworld insights to solve. When physics takes all 500 states of matter into account, then the currently intractable issues that now face science might have a change for resolution.

    https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfWfD9RRvtPOTqXwbc_53TL9V2aphpDgh95OQr_eWfpWRHhRXC

    In the EmDrive, as a result of the particular shape of the cone and the RF antenna, the flow of photons in a particular pattern causes a buildup of EMF in a fixed region of space in a standing wave. This forces the vacuum to compensate with a volume of associated negative energy to develop. Negative vacuum energy produces a repulsive force called dark gravity. IMHO, this is where the push of the EmDrive comes from.

    See for background

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/negativeenergy/negativeenergy.htm.
    ————————————

    also

    If we force a tennis ball to the bottom of the ocean, the ball would collapse. Does that mean that the pressure inside the ball is causing the ball to collapse?

    No, it is the pressure outside the ball that is crushing the ball.

    There is a case where negative vacuum energy produces a repulsive force. That case is produced when the medium in which negative vacuum energy occurs is a special type of liquid.

    The vacuum is viewed by some people and me as a spin net liquid. There is a lot of spin in the vacuum but that spin always cancels itself out to remain on the average zero.

    In this liquid environment, negative vacuum energy is repulsive.

    Repulsive Casimir and Casimir-Polder Forces

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.6415v2.pdf

  • Axil Axil

    Here is anther post here at ECW

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/17/a-letter-to-keith-fredericks-on-strange-radiation-mentioned-in-geneste-paper-axil/

    Regarding Geneste’s paper, the ‘strange radiation’ tracks described were replicated by Keith Fredericks and reported at ICCF18:

    http://www.ecoinventions.ca/iccf-18-keith-fredericks-possibility-of-tachyon/

    Your analysis suggested they might be superluminal tachyons.

    I would like to suggest something else.

    These tracks are produced by analog black holes called “dark mode surface plasmon polaritons” (dark mode SPP). From nanoplasmonics, it is well known that these polariton solitons produce monopole magnetic fields. Being a black hole, the inside of the soliton contains negative energy due to the fact that loads of magnetic power is being projected as an anapole magnetism beam. This power projection segregates the vacuum into positive and negative energy.

    Things that travel in negative vacuum go faster than light in a neutral vacuum as found in the laser probes used in the EMdrive experiments.

    Hawking radiation will easily entangle these solitons and also help to produce negative vacuum energy.

    The huge power content of these solitons come from a positive feedback mode between the soliton and the this SPP.

    Nanoplasmonics explains these solitons and how they project a monopole magnetic beam. In fact I have a micrograph of this beam.

    Your estimation of the power content of the soliton of 64 GeV puts the anapole magnetic field in range for it to produce muons and mesons born from the vacuum pair production as seen by Holmlid and the quark soup produced in the LeClair cavitation experiments.

    For and overview on this supject see as follows:

    http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2147-A-freed-polariton-soliton/

    This soliton mechanism is already well defined in physics and I have the papers to show you.

    also see

    Prof. Daniele Faccio: “Black Holes, With A Twist” – Inaugural Lecture

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyMYcqxuZ_I

    Axil

  • Axil Axil

    Here is anther post here at ECW

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/17/a-letter-to-keith-fredericks-on-strange-radiation-mentioned-in-geneste-paper-axil/

    Regarding Geneste’s paper, the ‘strange radiation’ tracks described were replicated by Keith Fredericks and reported at ICCF18:

    http://www.ecoinventions.ca/iccf-18-keith-fredericks-possibility-of-tachyon/

    Your analysis suggested they might be superluminal tachyons.

    I would like to suggest something else.

    These tracks are produced by analog black holes called “dark mode surface plasmon polaritons” (dark mode SPP). From nanoplasmonics, it is well known that these polariton solitons produce monopole magnetic fields. Being a black hole, the inside of the soliton contains negative energy due to the fact that loads of magnetic power is being projected as an anapole magnetism beam. This power projection segregates the vacuum into positive and negative energy.

    Things that travel in negative vacuum go faster than light in a neutral vacuum as found in the laser probes used in the EMdrive experiments.

    Hawking radiation will easily entangle these solitons and also help to produce negative vacuum energy.

    The huge power content of these solitons come from a positive feedback mode between the soliton and the this SPP.

    Nanoplasmonics explains these solitons and how they project a monopole magnetic beam. In fact I have a micrograph of this beam.

    Your estimation of the power content of the soliton of 64 GeV puts the anapole magnetic field in range for it to produce muons and mesons born from the vacuum pair production as seen by Holmlid and the quark soup produced in the LeClair cavitation experiments.

    For and overview on this supject see as follows:

    http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2147-A-freed-polariton-soliton/

    This soliton mechanism is already well defined in physics and I have the papers to show you.

    also see

    Prof. Daniele Faccio: “Black Holes, With A Twist” – Inaugural Lecture

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyMYcqxuZ_I

    Axil

    also see

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/04/26/a-theory-to-address-the-mysteries-of-lenr-axil-axil/

    A Theory to Address the Mysteries of LENR (Axil Axil)

    Also see

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/11/01/lenr-produces-eternal-cosmic-inflation-axil-axil/

    LENR Produces Eternal Cosmic Inflation (Axil Axil)

  • “ever produced” thrust seems for airplanes or spacecraft.
    In what e-cat could be better ? no more need oil ? Use very light fuel ? Yes, Yes.
    Heat at a better temperature ? No.
    Optimize the rate thrust / weight of fuel ? The classic way is to ionize light atoms and accelerate them. For this goal, e-cat can ionize from heat, then hightly accelerate ions from electricity. Yes. Yes.

  • “ever produced” thrust seems for airplanes or spacecraft.
    In what e-cat could be better ? no more need oil ? Use very light fuel ? Yes, Yes.
    Heat at a better temperature ? No.
    Optimize the rate thrust / weight of fuel ? The classic way is to ionize light atoms and accelerate them. For this goal, e-cat can ionize from heat, then hightly accelerate ions from electricity. Yes. Yes.

  • Samec

    What is unbelievable? Gravity modification aka thrust.

  • Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi

    April 4, 2016 at 7:00 PM
    Mark Saker:
    we are trying ( TRYING ) to make a propellantless thrust. Maybe we will not succeed.
    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • Brokeeper

      There must be a significant repulsive force stronger than current EM Drive forces or they would not even consider pursuing for jet engine designs. Unless, perhaps it is designed for long distant space travel using ion drive – but is that considered a jet engine? This is a lot to take in.

      • Nic

        Conventional combustion jet engines only rely on combustion, to produce heat and ultimately, to produce thrust. When Rossi talks about making a jet engine he is talking about producing lots of heat ultimately producing thrust using air as propellant. When Rossi talks about making propellant-less thrust using e-catq we must assume this not a jet engine

        • Brokeeper

          Gotchya, sometimes it is easy to read between the lines with Rossi speak. 🙂

      • Axil Axil

        It is a warp drive.

        • Mats002

          I see you pushing all of your last chips onto the table now 😉

          • Axil Axil

            I have pushed them in along time ago and it looks like I made a good bet.

            I wasn’t a dreamer, I was just telling it like it is.

          • Mats002

            I hope so too… But I have to admit I do not see what you see right now.

        • Brokeeper

          Scotty, “What if I told you that your transwarp theory was correct?”

    • Ged

      Edit: Nevermind? Looks like he meant more along the lines of using electricity to move the ambient air as the propellant (e.g. propeller/jet engine), rather than carrying a propellant (e.g. rocket), according to the above. Still rather murky in translation though.

  • Heath

    Is it possible they are trying to power an EmdriveCannae thruster? I know that Shawyer mentioned laser year that he was turning his attention toward terrestrial transportation and his thruster would proportedly require a lot of power to do so.

    • Heath

      Sorry–last, not “laser”

  • Heath

    Is it possible they are trying to power an EmdriveCannae thruster? I know that Shawyer mentioned laser year that he was turning his attention toward terrestrial transportation and his thruster would proportedly require a lot of power to do so.

    • Heath

      Sorry–last, not “laser”

  • Axil Axil

    The E-Cat is producing negative vacuum energy. Here is what we can do with this negative energy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyQ92SPWds

  • Axil Axil

    Mark Saker

    April 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM

    Dear Andrea

    In reference to Giovanni’s question and your response. I think there may still be some confusion with translation.

    Giovanni is trying to determine whether the ‘Thrust’ you are getting could create a new type of propellantless thruster. There is quite a bit of research on thrusters which do not require propellant at the moment, such as the em-drive and other ‘resonant cavity propulsion’. I think Giovanni is trying to determine whether the ‘Thrust’ you are talking about is like this, or whether you just mean you have experienced ‘Thrust’ by adding the ecat into a jet engine.

    Could you please confirm whether you were discussing the ecat jet engine or whether you have experience a new type of propellantless thrust.

    I hope you can answer

    many thanks

    Mark

    Andrea Rossi

    April 4, 2016 at 7:00 PM

    Mark Saker:

    we are trying ( TRYING ) to make a propellantless thrust. Maybe we will not succeed.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • Axil Axil

    Mark Saker

    April 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM

    Dear Andrea

    In reference to Giovanni’s question and your response. I think there may still be some confusion with translation.

    Giovanni is trying to determine whether the ‘Thrust’ you are getting could create a new type of propellantless thruster. There is quite a bit of research on thrusters which do not require propellant at the moment, such as the em-drive and other ‘resonant cavity propulsion’. I think Giovanni is trying to determine whether the ‘Thrust’ you are talking about is like this, or whether you just mean you have experienced ‘Thrust’ by adding the ecat into a jet engine.

    Could you please confirm whether you were discussing the ecat jet engine or whether you have experience a new type of propellantless thrust.

    I hope you can answer

    many thanks

    Mark

    Andrea Rossi

    April 4, 2016 at 7:00 PM

    Mark Saker:

    we are trying ( TRYING ) to make a propellantless thrust. Maybe we will not succeed.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • Axil Axil

    Fulvio Fabiani, Rossi’s engineer:

    “The field that this reaction opens up is so vast that it’s almost impossible to imagine all the capabilities and possibilities. I have always been a lover of science fiction, and yet I was never able to believe that the famous star ships you see in the movies would become possible, because it seemed too far away. But I have to say that when I saw what Rossi was able to open, I’m seeing that world getting closer. Maybe before I die I will see those starships. Yes, it’s a child’s dream.”

    Fabiani must have been talking seriously without exaggeration.

  • Axil Axil

    Fulvio Fabiani, Rossi’s engineer:

    “The field that this reaction opens up is so vast that it’s almost impossible to imagine all the capabilities and possibilities. I have always been a lover of science fiction, and yet I was never able to believe that the famous star ships you see in the movies would become possible, because it seemed too far away. But I have to say that when I saw what Rossi was able to open, I’m seeing that world getting closer. Maybe before I die I will see those starships. Yes, it’s a child’s dream.”

    Fabiani must have been talking seriously without exaggeration.

    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2015/11/25/rossis-engineer-i-have-seen-things-you-people-wouldnt-believe/

  • Brokeeper

    Gotchya, sometimes it is easy to read between the lines with Rossi speak. 🙂

  • Tono

    I start being afraid. I would prefer heating in my house first.

    • Bob Greenyer

      A COP of 1.5 would really help me.

  • Tono

    I start being afraid. I would prefer heating in my house first.

    • Bob Greenyer

      A COP of 1.5 would really help me.

      • bachcole

        You’d be spending all of your time depositing funding contributions. (:->)

  • Julian Becker

    Not sure as I quickly went over the comments. Lets call it an EMcatx-Quark

    • Julian Becker

      …or short EMCat

      • Mats002

        If IH/Darden refuse to publish any part of ERV report for the original low temp Cat, this story will turn into a CATastrophe!

        I will take it as a negative outcome and that makes all claims from ‘Rossi says’ to look very foolish.

        The serious LENR community with COP a little over 1 without levitating features, having open data and published 3rd party reports with name and phone number will be the winners.

        • Julian Becker

          Anyway the question for me is: Can I go in a year or two into any electronics shop (or even buy it on the internet) and ask them to sell me an Ecat-QuarkX in the form of a light bulb. And hope it doesn’t drag out the cables when it wizzes off into hyperspace…

  • fritz194

    If you think what might happen within LENR NAEs – this is quite similar to what might be needed for gravity shielding / gravity “interaction”. Thrust as byproduct of non-radioactive nuclear gravity shielding. Perfect. There is research in this field – military and confidential. A Mrs. “Ning Li” dissappeared years ago after anouncing progress, USAF paid studies on AIT Austria to verify findings – and Martin Tajmar had to take some downtime…. John Schnurer died in a car accident.
    Eugene Podkletnov who started this circle in 1992 works now on gravity beams in moscow.
    Rossi is a blatherskithe. Even if there is some chance that this might work – I would keep that confidential until further notice.

    • Axil Axil

      Rossi should get this new feature of the LENR reaction into his IP before somebody else does.

    • gdaigle

      Ning Li, Podkletnov and Tajmar all worked with low temperature superconductors. So if this reaction occurs above the temperature of liquid nitrogen that would be something new. In addition, Tajmar has been replicating the experiments of Podkletnov, Modanese and Wallace all last year as head of a physics department at the University of Dresden. During his “downtime” he was a professor at KAIST, the Korean analog of MIT. If Rossi wants anyone to test if there is thrust with the E-Cat, they should write a proposal to him.

      • fritz194

        The common thing with superconductivity and LENR is (probably) the formation of a Bose Einstein Condensate (BEC).
        If the presence of a BEC causes macroscopic force anomalies in respect to gravity or ether 2.0 – we have found something very nice.
        A profound argument auf skeptics regarding lenr and antigravity is typicalwise that there is pretty less “Space” for new physics.
        I agree with that – but the other way around – I assume that once LENR is understood – lots of other marginal borderline effects might be explained and understood.

        • fritz194

          Having that missing link – and assuming the referenced people are no fraudsters -, we will understand Hutchinson Levitation, Effects, Grebenikov CSE, Levitation, Keely…. So if we apply Ockhams Razor – its favourable that the number of needed changes to physics is minimal.

  • fritz194

    If you think what might happen within LENR NAEs – this is quite similar to what might be needed for gravity shielding / gravity “interaction”. Thrust as byproduct of non-radioactive nuclear gravity shielding. Perfect. There is research in this field – military and confidential. A Mrs. “Ning Li” dissappeared years ago after anouncing progress, USAF paid studies on AIT Austria to verify findings – and Martin Tajmar had to take some downtime…. John Schnurer died in a car accident.
    Eugene Podkletnov who started this circle in 1992 works now on gravity beams in moscow.
    Rossi is a blatherskithe. Even if there is some chance that this might work – I would keep that confidential until further notice.

    • Axil Axil

      Rossi should get this new feature of the LENR reaction into his IP before somebody else does.

    • gdaigle

      Ning Li, Podkletnov and Tajmar all worked with low temperature superconductors. So if this reaction occurs above the temperature of liquid nitrogen that would be something new. In addition, Tajmar has been replicating the experiments of Podkletnov, Modanese and Wallace all last year as head of a physics department at the University of Dresden. During his “downtime” he was a professor at KAIST, the Korean analog of MIT. If Rossi wants anyone to test if there is thrust with the E-Cat, they should write a proposal to him.

      • fritz194

        The common thing with superconductivity and LENR is (probably) the formation of a Bose Einstein Condensate (BEC).
        If the presence of a BEC causes macroscopic force anomalies in respect to gravity or ether 2.0 – we have found something very nice.
        A profound argument auf skeptics regarding lenr and antigravity is typicalwise that there is pretty less “Space” for new physics.
        I agree with that – but the other way around – I assume that once LENR is understood – lots of other marginal borderline effects might be explained and understood.

        • fritz194

          Having that missing link – and assuming the referenced people are no fraudsters -, we will understand Hutchinson Levitation, Effects, Grebenikov CSE, Levitation, Keely…. So if we apply Ockhams Razor – its favourable that the number of needed changes to physics is minimal.

  • artefact

    Maybe that is what the luxenergy.space domain is for 🙂

  • artefact

    Maybe that is what the luxenergy.space domain is for 🙂

  • akupaku

    Wow, the story just gets better every day, lol! What wonders are awaiting us next week or month? Warp drive, Star Trek food processor and teletransporter?

    Is Rossi a circus artist? He is certainly juggling with many balls. He is keeping me and many more here spellbound with his choreography.

    I sure hope it’s not all an illusion and circus act but I guess I should not be expecting too much, after all it is free entertainment. Enjoy the show!

  • Alan DeAngelis
  • Alan DeAngelis
  • A spacecraft could collect “ambiant” gaz and powder in a large “funnel” (a parabolic concentrator to a speed vortex in a toroidal cavity), then ionize that and separately accelerate positives and negatives ions.

  • A spacecraft could collect “ambiant” gaz and powder in a large “funnel” (a parabolic concentrator to a speed vortex in a toroidal cavity), then ionize that and separately accelerate positives and negatives ions.

  • artefact

    Isn’t a jet engine that works by very hot e-cat x in the “burner chamber” also a propellantless engine?
    A question for Rossi would be if the thrust will/should work in space.

  • artefact

    Isn’t a jet engine that works by very hot e-cat x in the “burner chamber” also a propellantless engine?
    A question for Rossi would be if the thrust will/should work in space.

  • Thomas

    perhaps it is somehow related to em-drive which nasa confirmed producing thrust without propellant?

  • Thomas

    perhaps it is somehow related to em-drive which nasa confirmed producing thrust without propellant?

  • Karl Venter

    I am curios as to how somebody would know that an ECAT x can produce thrust
    Surely you must have some inside info to ask such a question?
    Seems too good to believe ………………………………………
    Giovanni?

    • Ecco

      To speculate on the possibility, inside information is not needed in my opinion.
      In my case I only thought there might be some similarities between typical EM thrusters, generic LENR devices and some of the proposed theories/observations.

  • Karl Venter

    I am curios as to how somebody would know that an ECAT x can produce thrust
    Surely you must have some inside info to ask such a question?
    Seems too good to believe ………………………………………
    Giovanni?

    • Ecco

      I don’t think that to speculate on the possibility inside information would be needed.
      In my case I only thought there might be some similarities between typical EM thrusters, generic LENR devices and some of the proposed theories/observations.

    • bachcole

      One of my comments implied that. Why would anyone even be looking for that if it were in the range of the EMDrive? And to measure the EMDrive with any degree of accuracy would require a very large vacuum and a lot of very sensitive and expensive equipment. This is one of those wonders and miracles that I have been stumped about.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Andrea Rossi April 5, 2016 at 7:15 AM
    Marco Serra:
    The thrust in a jet is given by a fluid, in our case air or water.
    About our robotized line, the manufacturing system will remaion absolutely confidential.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    and

    Andrea Rossi April 5, 2016 at 7:16 AM
    Sverre Haslund:
    I can confirm that the so called Rossi effect does NOT produce muons.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • Ecco

      Heated/pressurized air or steam are non-flammable propellants. Steam rockets definitely can’t be defined as propellantless.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457DSAxuwBY

    • Brokeeper

      “A magnetohydrodynamic drive or MHD propulsor is a method for propelling vessels using only electric and magnetic fields with no moving parts, using magnetohydrodynamics.

      The working principle involves electrification of the propellant (gas or water) which can then be directed by a magnetic field, pushing the vehicle in the opposite direction. Although some working prototypes exist, MHD drives remain impractical.”
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

      However with LENR energy density/power is it now practical with the E-Cat QX?

    • I was really glad to read this. With the propellantless thrust we were getting into wacky zero point energy land.

      Rossi interpreted propellantless as simply using ambient matter (air or water) as the “fuel” that gets heated and ejected. It is propellantless in the sense that it requires no fuel. It is not propellantless in the sense that it can magically create motion without pushing something out.

      • artefact

        The bad thing is, it does not work in space 🙂 (for a long time)

        • Since we already know it can produce electricity, I bet someone will be able to engineer an ion drive out of it. Ion drives are excellent deep space engines.

        • Ged

          Unless you get going fast enough to use the hydrogen and other gasses in space as the propellant (Bussard ramjet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet ).

          • Stephen

            If it can significantly boost the thrust from a conventional thruster or ion drive it could already be useful though.

        • Stephen

          Perhaps one day with an ion spike and a ECAT Quark thruster we can surf the outer atmospheres of the planets (and stars) and cruise the space in-between.

      • Ged

        I also breathe a sigh of relief! I am glad I wasn’t wrong to doubt he meant EMdrive like. Rather, it’s more a ramscoop design, which could be ridiculously powerful. But, even a propeller is “propellentless” in its thrust by that thinking ;).

      • Stephen

        Yup I think thats the most likely and logical explanation. Anything else would be too amazing I suppose. I did wonder at some point if he was distinguishing the jet from some other observed thrust. But as someone interested in the potential underlying mechanisms and science even just a thermal COP of 1.1 is amazing enough. What ever new things E-Cat Quark gives us, Everything else in addition to the COP is an incredible, beautiful and additional gift especially now when it seems the world is in need of these things.

      • bachcole

        “With the propellantless thrust we were getting into wacky zero point energy land.” LOL. Yes, weren’t we. I was too polite to say it, but I was thinking it. We have stepped back from the abyss.

      • DrD

        Agree. Back to reality.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Marco Serra April 5, 2016 at 5:14 AM
    Dear Andrea
    I’m not an expert in the field but I’d like to ask you if “propellantless thrust” means a way to get thrust without exploiting the third law of motion that is moving forward without throwing back any of material ?
    If you can disclose something about the timeline of the agree with ABB ? When will ABB be able to complete robotized assembly line ? How many pieces per day (just an order of magnitude) will it be capable to produce ?
    God bless you, Marco Serra

    Andrea Rossi April 5, 2016 at 7:15 AM
    Marco Serra:
    The thrust in a jet is given by a fluid, in our case air or water.
    About our robotized line, the manufacturing system will remaion absolutely confidential.
    Warm Regards, A.R.

    and

    Andrea Rossi April 5, 2016 at 7:16 AM
    Sverre Haslund: I can confirm that the so called Rossi effect does NOT produce muons.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Ecco

      Heated/pressurized air or steam are non-flammable propellants. Steam rockets definitely can’t be defined as propellantless.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457DSAxuwBY

    • bachcole

      See how easy it is to make me feel better. He is not claiming an EMDrive type thrust, a propellantless thrust.

      • Ecco

        Try Googling “propellantless”.

    • Brokeeper

      “A magnetohydrodynamic drive or MHD propulsor is a method for propelling vessels using only electric and magnetic fields with no moving parts, using magnetohydrodynamics.

      The working principle involves electrification of the propellant (gas or water) which can then be directed by a magnetic field, pushing the vehicle in the opposite direction. Although some working prototypes exist, MHD drives remain impractical.”
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

      However, with LENR energy density/power, is it now practical with the E-Cat QX and its inherit electrical and magnetic field properties? It is the ‘holy grail’ for quite propeller-less submarine propulsion.

    • I was really glad to read this. With the propellantless thrust we were getting into wacky zero point energy land.

      Rossi interpreted propellantless as simply using ambient matter (air or water) as the “fuel” that gets heated and ejected. It is propellantless in the sense that it requires no fuel. It is not propellantless in the sense that it can magically create motion without pushing something out.

      • artefact

        The bad thing is, it does not work in space 🙂 (for a long time)

        • Since we already know it can produce electricity, I bet someone will be able to engineer an ion drive out of it. Ion drives are excellent deep space engines.

          EDIT: here’s a wiki page for Ion thrusters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster

        • Ged

          Unless you get going fast enough to use the hydrogen and other gasses in space as the propellant (Bussard ramjet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet ).

          • Stephen

            If it can significantly boost the thrust from a conventional thruster or ion drive it could already be useful though.

        • Stephen

          Perhaps one day with an ion spike and a ECAT Quark thruster we can surf the outer atmospheres of the planets (and stars) and cruise the space in-between.

      • Ged

        I also breathe a sigh of relief! I am glad I wasn’t wrong to doubt he meant EMdrive like. Rather, it’s more a ramscoop design, which could be ridiculously powerful. But, even a propeller is “propellantless” in its thrust by that thinking ;).

      • Stephen

        Yup I think thats the most likely and logical explanation. Anything else would be too amazing I suppose. I did wonder at some point if he was distinguishing the jet from some other observed thrust. But as someone interested in the potential underlying mechanisms and science even just a thermal COP of 1.1 is amazing enough. What ever new things E-Cat Quark gives us, Everything else in addition to the COP is an incredible, beautiful and additional gift especially now when it seems the world is in need of these things.

      • bachcole

        “With the propellantless thrust we were getting into wacky zero point energy land.” LOL. Yes, weren’t we. I was too polite to say it, but I was thinking it. We have stepped back from the abyss.

      • DrD

        Agree. Back to reality.

  • Ecco

    Try Googling “propellantless”.

  • roseland67

    I get it, I get it,
    It’s gonna cure cancer, balance the budget and solve the Mideast religious conflict.
    But what we still don’t know is what we never knew:
    Energy out > Energy in?
    Scaleable?
    Safe?
    Repairable?
    Etc etc etc

    Release it and change the world,
    5 years and still nothing,
    Ecat is turning into EEstor II

  • Ophelia Rump

    You can power your EmDrive with the electricity from E-CatX’s that will be an astounding enough combination.

  • Ophelia Rump

    You can power your EmDrive with the electricity from E-CatX’s that will be an astounding enough combination.

    • bob dash

      Sure would. emagine the possibilities. what it could do?

  • HarryD

    Anti gravitational effects I’d speculate …. 😉

  • catfish

    driving an Em Drive frustrum, perhaps?

  • Observer

    Having acceleration without a propellant is as easy as falling off a log. (Hint: Gravity)

    I can also time travel, but only in one direction.

    • Nevis07

      Trying to confuse and throw-off competition??

    • bachcole

      Would that be one second per second, or one minute per minute? I guess it depends upon your attention span. Newton would be one month per month. (:->)

      • Observer

        I can only travel in the direction of increasing entropy. The slower the states change, the longer the perceived time interval.

        • bachcole

          “I can only travel in the direction of increasing entropy.” Only if you take your marching orders from physics.

          • Observer

            According to physics the surface area of the USA is constantly getting smaller because entropy requires an ever increasing density of states.

  • Observer

    Having acceleration without a propellant is as easy as falling off a log. (Hint: Gravity)

    I can also time travel, but only in one direction.

    • bachcole

      Would that be one second per second, or one minute per minute? I guess it depends upon your attention span. Newton would be one month per month. (:->)

      • Observer

        I can only travel in the direction of increasing entropy. The slower the states change, the longer the perceived time interval.

        • bachcole

          “I can only travel in the direction of increasing entropy.” Only if you take your marching orders from physics.

          • Observer

            According to physics the surface area of the USA is constantly getting smaller because entropy requires an ever increasing density of states.

    • clovis ray

      And that time, is getting short for some here, i suppose at some determined spot,time will move on, and we will not.

  • Nevis07

    Trying to confuse and throw-off competition??

  • US_Citizen71

    Ask vague questions get vague answers. I would think by now we would understand that English being Rossi’s 2nd language and his caginess sometimes produces quotes that can have a large degree of interpretation. Artefact’s post below, http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/04/now-thrust-from-the-e-cat/#comment-2607128616 hopefully puts to rest this trip into the dreamworld of everyone’s imagination over the interpretation of Rossi’s comment on the QuarkX producing thrust.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Indeed. One possibility is that Rossi might be talking about MHD propulsion, for which one needs magnetic field, DC power and ionisation of air. Magnet can be ordinary magnet, DC power comes from E-cat and maybe if the cat has a window it can also ionise air also. Such device could make air move without having any moving parts.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Sorry, brokeeper already said it. Should read the comments before posting, but there are 143…

      • US_Citizen71

        I would think MHD would work better with seawater since it has dissolved ions to move around. For air I would think you would need stronger ionizing radiation than what is so far being claimed for LENR or need to heat the air to plasma. But, I am no expert on the subject.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Agreed except last sentence;-)

          • US_Citizen71

            Thanks! But, I just like to learn new things and science has been a passion of mine since youth, so I know a few things. : )

        • Stephen

          Maybe at hypersonic speeds in air the ionized layer in the boundary layer of the bow shock can be utilized. Perhaps after detachment and shaping of the shock with an ion spike to avoid heating the vehicle etc.

          Perhaps micro LENR devices in the wing surface can locally ionize and shape the surface of the air to generate lift and thrust in its vicinity at sub hypersonic speeds too.

  • Axil Axil

    Can anyone venture an opinion as to what this means?

    Gerard McEk

    April 5, 2016 at 6:14 AM

    Dear Andrea,

    Fully surprised I read you that are trying to develop some thrust with your QuarkX. The wonders of the apparatus seem to increase by the week.

    Can you tell what made you think that it can develop thrust? Was it because:

    1. You widnessed some movement or force.

    2. The developing theory suggests this will happen

    3. Is there any chance it will produce golden eggs as well? 😉

    Thanks for keeping us up too dat with all these exciting developments!

    Kind regards, Gerard

    Andrea Rossi

    April 5, 2016 at 7:09 AM

    Gerard McEk:

    We are making R&D principally to cook eggs. The thrust ( or crust, or rust, or Proust ) if for to make the eggs jump to avoid sticking.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • US_Citizen71

      It’s a joke in my opinion. : )

      • Brokeeper

        Or a reference hint to Axil’s warp jump. (“eggs jump”)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oz5-5Yk6sQ

    • Bob Tivnan

      In Search of Lost Time by Marcel Proust- the E-Cat is a flux capacitor. http://www.backtothefuture.com/

  • Axil Axil

    Can anyone venture an opinion as to what this means?

    Gerard McEk

    April 5, 2016 at 6:14 AM

    Dear Andrea,

    Fully surprised I read you that are trying to develop some thrust with your QuarkX. The wonders of the apparatus seem to increase by the week.

    Can you tell what made you think that it can develop thrust? Was it because:

    1. You widnessed some movement or force.

    2. The developing theory suggests this will happen

    3. Is there any chance it will produce golden eggs as well? 😉

    Thanks for keeping us up too dat with all these exciting developments!

    Kind regards, Gerard

    Andrea Rossi

    April 5, 2016 at 7:09 AM

    Gerard McEk:

    We are making R&D principally to cook eggs. The thrust ( or crust, or rust, or Proust ) if for to make the eggs jump to avoid sticking.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • US_Citizen71

      It’s a joke in my opinion. : )

      • Brokeeper

        Or a reference hint to Axil’s warp jump. (“eggs jump”)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oz5-5Yk6sQ

    • bachcole

      First, the initial email was disrespectful and shameful. And then Rossi’s response was an attempt to lighten up the exchange.

    • Bob Tivnan

      In Search of Lost Time by Marcel Proust- the E-Cat is a flux capacitor 😉 http://www.backtothefuture.com/

  • Sanjeev

    Now EM Drive pathoskeptics and ECat pathoskeptics will need to cross breed. 😀

    • LCD

      Lol

  • Sanjeev

    Now EM Drive pathoskeptics and ECat pathoskeptics will need to cross breed. 😀

    • LCD

      Lol

  • OMGWTFZPMBBQ

    I think what AR means is that we could use water as reaction mass.

  • fpirri

    I propose the following reflections on the analogy between the “solar sail” technology and the QuarkX.
    According to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail an ideal, full-reflective, 1 square meter sail will get a force of 9.08 μN per square metre (9.08 μPa) in the direction normal to surface and this can be related to the photons coming from the sun with an irradiance value of 1361 W/m2 at 1 AU (Earth-Sun distance).
    A quick, very imprecise, analogy will say that a Quarkx actually get an equivalent force of 9.08 μN when emitting 1361 W of photons in a single direction, not considering anything else (please note that 9.08 μN are equivalent to 0,925 milligram, i.e. a small but
    near-measurable force –
    http://www.convertunits.com/from/newton/to/gram-force ). The conclusion is that near-measurable thrust is a direct consequence of the QuarkX emitting light.
    More intresting is the case of QuarkX emitting a nuclear particle, i.e. something with a mass much, much bigger than the equivalent mass of the photon, if this also happen along a single, preferred direction. Unfortunately in this case the calculation of the achieveable force requires a number of hypothesis on the emitted particle.
    I wonder if someone among the blog readers has already written down a “QuarkX rocket equation” in the hypothesis that the QuarkX emits photons and/or nuclear particles along a single, preferred direction, in analogy to the well-known “solar sail” case cited above.
    References:
    – according to AR, one or more QuarkX can deliver that amount of light power;
    – “Photonic laser thruster” and the “Ion Thruster” are “serious science” topics beeen investigated by NASA and others;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_rocket and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_propulsion show a number of equations which allow you to calculate the performance of you ideal photon/ion rocket;
    – a classic, general form of “ideal rocket equation” is shown in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation;
    – the mass reduction in the ideal rocket equation above is not the same mass-reduction eventually observed in the QuarkX fluel caused by the cold fusion process.