Andrea Rossi Goes to Court: What Happens to the E-Cat Now?

We’ve had months of prognostication now about how and when the results of Andrea Rossi’s 1MW E-Cat test might get released, but I don’t think anyone predicted that the news would come in a press release announcing a court case.

For years now people have been speculating about the relationship between Andrea Rossi/Leonardo Corporation and Industrial Heat — trying to understand the legal and working relationship between the two entities. The court documents connected with the legal action taken by Rossi against Industrial Heat have given us much more information than we have ever known. I certainly never expected to be able to know so much about the inner details of the relationship, except maybe far into the future when a history of this affair was written.

Someone asked me yesterday for an analysis of the situation. Honestly I don’t know if I can add anything new to the hundreds of comments that have been posted since yesterday afternoon. There is much speculation about motives and behind-the-scenes maneuvering, but personally I am still trying to digest this highly unexpected situation.

To me the most important question in all of this is what happens to the E-Cat now? The reason I have been following this story for so long is not because of the personalities or business dealings involved — it’s because we are dealing with a technology that has the potential to benefit the world in a profound way.

At the heart of the story is still Andrea Rossi and his invention. Rossi’s complaint revealed yesterday makes extraordinary claims about what the E-Cat can do. To me, the key phrase from the document is “By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.”

Taken at face value, this means that the overall COP obtained during the test was over 50 — which is on the high end of what many people were expecting. If this is accurate then Rossi’s invention is really doing the impossible, and it is one of the most significant inventions in human history, with the potential to alleviate so many of our energy-related problems.

But we are still at the pre-production, R&D stage. To be useful to the human race, the E-Cat must be released into the real world to do real work. What are its prospects now?

I have no doubt about the determination and commitment of Andrea Rossi to bring his product to market. But determination alone can’t do it. He needs funding to make it happen, and the reason he entered into a relationship with Industrial Heat was to obtain that funding, and the lawsuit filed by Rossi maintains that the agreed-upon payment was not delivered, and without those funds perhaps the goal of mass production of the E-Cat that Rossi has been striving towards is now in jeopardy.

Of course we’ll have to wait and see how things develop in the legal arena, but time, money and energy are now going to be tied up in legal proceedings. A technology that many had hoped would be introduced with a news conference, a big media campaign, news stories, and all-round celebrations is making its appearance on the world stage in a very different way. Will the E-Cat survive this birth trauma?

  • lifeswhatyoumakeit

    Excellent summary of the situation and what’s most important amidst all these tumultuous happenings. Thanks again Frank, for all the work you do on this site.

  • lifeswhatyoumakeit

    Excellent summary of the situation and what’s most important amidst all these tumultuous happenings. Thanks again Frank, for all the work you do on this site.

  • bachcole

    This is very sad. People insist upon protecting and promoting their egos, and then they wonder why they are all alone and unproductive. (Credit AlainCo for that thought.)

    Although I am speculating (something that is fraught with uncertainty), I can see no reason why I.H. would not pay other than the fact the the test was a failure. But, like I said, that idea is highly speculative. I really don’t know what is going on, and neither does anyone else here. I sure want to hear from I.H. and Penon or anyone else, especially those with no self-interest who actually know something beyond their speculations and imaginings.

    • Zephir

      /* People insist upon protecting and promoting their egos, and then they
      wonder why they are all alone and unproductive. (Credit AlainCo for
      that thought.) */

      This is actually what the whole one century standing history of cold fusion research is about.. The same situation repeated in every step of it, just the players alternated.

  • Pierre Beaulnes

    Right to the point Frank. And every minute that passes without the full implementation of this technology, hundreds of life are lost, not counting the suffering (just think about clean drinkable water that needs energy to be created). What we need is a Marshall plan to implement this technology all around the world. It would be nice to see Bill Gates or Alphabet intervene… The same way VELCRO does, this technology should belong to Humanity.

  • peacelovewoodstock

    Well, per the posted copy of the Rossi/IH agreement, he has ten other commercial licensees (beyond Ampenergo), presumably those entities will be eager to proceed with product development, marketing, and sales.

    Further, Rossi can (and presumably will) seek immediate injunctive relief against any further patent infringement by IH, if his case meets certain basic tests, such relief should be granted early in the proceedings.

    Then there is this interesting nugget on page 10 of the agreement, “In the event of termination of the Agreement due to a breach by the Company, the Company and all of its affiliates, employees, officers, directors, for two (2) years after the period of effectiveness of this agreement, will not be allowed to work for a competitor of Leonardo in the licensing or sale of products competing with the E-Cat Products.” (“Company” being IH).

    So what is “Luxenergyltd.com” all about?

  • The main points for me are:

    – The COP was over 50, verified by an ERV, and Rossi/Leonardo have now made a legal claim to that effect. This is worlds apart from claiming COP 6+ on JoNP and virtually eliminates any possibility that Rossi is a scam artist. Measurement error is a ridiculous explanation at that performance level and otherwise co-conspirators would have to be involved for years while Rossi lived inside a container for a year. Not a measurement error. Not delusional. Not an epic scam. Official legal claims. Occam’s razor = E-Cats work as advertised.

    – The ERV was Dr. Penon, previously associated with Rossi. This will keep the skeptopaths in business indefinitely as will the interpretation of the lawsuit and IH press release as Industrial Heat bailing on Rossi and the E-Cat simply because it doesn’t work.

    – This is most likely a fight over money and IP. Industrial Heat paid $11.5 M to Rossi upon delivery of the plant and it’s subsequent 24 hr verification by Penon (so at least at that point they were satisfied with Penon and the measurements — that would have been the time to blow the whistle if they had uncovered a scam). Industrial Heat received the secret sauce at that point. For whatever reason they are balking at the last $89 M. Maybe they only want to pay half and force it into the 5% royalty scheme because they think they’ve got a marketable product via another asset (see 3.2 (c) in agreement). Maybe they couldn’t raise the money. Maybe it’s just business from their perspective and they are optimizing the position of their shareholders. Or maybe they think they are the victims of fraud. We anxiously await their position.

    – The plant customer is JM Chemical Products Inc (JMC) in Doral, FL led by a Henry W Johnson. They appear to have first registered in June 2014. It’s not clear to me after a little Googling what they make. The size and timing of their creation do not add any credibility. The scenario of Rossi recruiting Penon and others to his evil scheme and creating a “chemical company” out of thin air with a willing flunky to back up the claimed energy savings fits the facts to some extent. We are far from the ideal scenario of UL as the ERV validating a COP of 50 at NASA or DOW Chemical.
    7861 NW 46th St Doral, FL 33166-5470

    • Howard W Johnson is a lawyer involved as an officer in many companies and is the President of Leonardo.

      https://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Miami-Beach/leonardo-corporation/66632333.aspx

      So we can conclude that the customer hosting the plant is at best a company Rossi identified through his buddy and business associate Henry Johnson or at worst something they created themselves for the specific purpose of hosting the plant.

      Not good.

      EDIT: not sure why they would charge themselves for the heat though — points to the first explanation. Unless it was part of a money laundering scheme.

    • sam

      Is it possible Darden wants a better deal at this time in development.
      89 million is a lot and he might not
      have it and it is still a while and more
      money until he sees returns.

      • Yes. Lots of things are possible at this point.

        We will not have clarity until and unless Industrial Heat explains from their point of view.

  • The main points for me are:

    – The COP was over 50, verified by an ERV, and Rossi/Leonardo have now made a legal claim to that effect. This is worlds apart from claiming COP 6+ on JoNP and virtually eliminates any possibility that Rossi is a scam artist. Measurement error is a ridiculous explanation at that performance level and otherwise co-conspirators would have to be involved for years while Rossi lived inside a container for a year. Not a measurement error. Not delusional. Not an epic scam. Official legal claims. Occam’s razor = E-Cats work as advertised.

    – The ERV was Dr. Penon, previously associated with Rossi. This will keep the skeptopaths in business indefinitely as will the interpretation of the lawsuit and IH press release as Industrial Heat bailing on Rossi and the E-Cat simply because it doesn’t work.

    – This is most likely a fight over money and IP. Industrial Heat paid $11.5 M to Rossi upon delivery of the plant and its subsequent 24 hr verification by Penon (so at least at that point they were satisfied with Penon and the measurements — that would have been the time to blow the whistle if they had uncovered a scam). Industrial Heat received the secret sauce at that point. For whatever reason they are balking at the last $89 M. Maybe they only want to pay half and force it into the 5% royalty scheme because they think they’ve got a marketable product via another asset (see 3.2 (c) in agreement). Maybe they couldn’t raise the money. Maybe it’s just business from their perspective and they are optimizing the position of their shareholders. Or maybe they think they are the victims of fraud. We anxiously await their position.

    – The plant customer is JM Chemical Products Inc (JMC) in Doral, FL led by a Henry W Johnson. They appear to have first registered in June 2014. It’s not clear to me after a little Googling what they make. The size and timing of their creation do not add any credibility. The scenario of Rossi recruiting Penon and others to his evil scheme and creating a “chemical company” out of thin air with a willing flunky to back up the claimed energy savings fits the facts to some extent. We are far from the ideal scenario of UL as the ERV validating a COP of 50 at NASA or DOW Chemical.
    7861 NW 46th St Doral, FL 33166-5470

    • Rip Kirbyian

      Yes, I found it disturbing that Rossi had to find the customer… maybe this can be used by IH to undermine the whole 1 year test? Or have they sanctioned/approved the 1-year test set up?

      • Of more interest to me is why IH failed to find a test bed, which should have been easy for them.

        Some things come to mind:
        – They suspected fraud early on even though they paid the $10 M and were looking to quash it all quietly.
        – A management decision had been made to stall the technology for whatever reason.
        – They had decided to acquire other LENR players and commercialize through them now that they had the secret sauce. Perhaps because they would have more control/revenue that way.

        None of it smells good for IH, I tell ya. Looks like they were screwing Rossi big time.

    • Howard W Johnson is a lawyer involved as an officer in many companies and is the President of Leonardo.

      https://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Miami-Beach/leonardo-corporation/66632333.aspx

      So we can conclude that the customer hosting the plant is at best a company Rossi identified through his buddy and business associate Henry Johnson or at worst something they created themselves for the specific purpose of hosting the plant.

      Not good.

      EDIT: not sure why they would charge themselves for the heat though — points to the first explanation. Unless it was part of a money laundering scheme.

      • Rip Kirbyian

        good find!

    • sam

      Is it possible Darden wants a better deal at this time in development.
      89 million is a lot and he might not
      have it and it is still a while and more
      money until he sees returns.

      • Yes. Lots of things are possible at this point.

        We will not have clarity until and unless Industrial Heat explains from their point of view.

  • John Littlemist

    Is the real customer Johnson Matthey Chemical Products? http://chemicals.matthey.com/ Look at the last page of license agreement! Credit to wpj for this find.

    • I don’t believe so. I believe it’s this little company in Doral, FL as you can see Henry Johnson confirms the link.

      http://visulate.com/rental/visulate_search.php?CORP_ID=P14000056117

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Who is Henry Johnson? How is he connected to the E-Cat?

        • Lawyer that has President role of many businesses. Also President of Leonardo Corp.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Are you telling me the President of Leonardo Corp. and the man behind JMC are the same person?

          • Yup.

            Scam scenario is rising with a bullet.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Damn, sounds like fraud.

          • Withhold judgment.

            An innocent explanation is that an exasperated Rossi asked Johnson if he knew any companies that fit their needs. Johnson, involved in many businesses found a startup that was willing to take a chance.

            Johnson is a highly rated lawyer by his peers. No sense yet that he is a master scam artist. Just a lawyer doing lawyer things.

            In the end it doesn’t matter where the thing was tested if the results are on the up and up. But we can go ahead and discount any statements by the customer if any are made in the future. They carry no weight under this arrangement.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            “JMC is owned by an entity formed in the United Kingdom and none of Leonardo, Dr. Andrea Rossi, Henry W. Johnson nor any of their respective subsidiaries, directors, officers, agents, employees, affiliates, significant others, or relatives by blood or marriage has any ownership interest in JMC.”

            Followed by the signature of Henry W Johnson, President. Presumably of Leonardo Corporation and not JMC? It would make the above disclaimer pretty meaningless.

          • Johnson is the President of JM Chemical Products and was signing as such.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Pretty hypocritical of him to not claim “ownership interest”, then? Being President is even worse.

            It always seems to be some small clique of Rossi’s. The customer, the ERV, Fabiani on IH’s behalf… ugh. This is sounding really, really bad. IH will come at him with full guns blasting.

          • Officer of a company and having ownership in a company are two very different things.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            I realize that. I meant in the spirit of being impartial or unable to affect the outcome through their own actions, which is supposedly the whole raison d’être of the clause.

          • Agreed. I will have no trouble discounting statements, if any, made by the customer. Unless they come from the UK parent and the UK parent is credible.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Even if the parent is credible, no one can plausibly deny fabrication of the numbers by Johnson.

            How could IH have been so gullible?

          • Jane Gooders

            The other possibility is that this is a shell cover company traceable only to Leonardo/Rossi deliberately set up to shield the customer from publicity and protect their anonymity.

      • Incorporated Jun 27, 2014. That a brand new company would almost immediately put their operations at risk by playing host to a novel power source located in a couple of containers seems unlikely in the extreme.

        In fact it suggests that this ‘company’ may have been set up by Leonardo(?) with the sole purpose of providing a site to test the 1MW plant, when IH failed to provide anybody. It probably didn’t actually make anything at all, and steam produced may have simply gone through a condenser.

        What this does mean is that there never was any real ‘customer’ other than IH, and Rossi lied or at least employed half truths about this. The full nature of IH’s involvement remains to be seen.

        LENR G’s post below seems to confirm this.

        • Sanjeev

          Since it was just incorporated, there doesn’t seem to be any possibility of seeing their past electricity bills for comparison to the bills they got when the test was on.
          Those who were hoping to see the savings on power bills will be disappointed. (that includes me).

          • I suspect that it was just a disused factory before June last year, which happened to have power supply cables that were up to the job.

          • wpj

            But why did they re-charge the reactors and continue producing heat if itwasn’t being used for anything?

    • Oh I see. There is speculation that Johnson Matthey created and owns JM Chemical Products due to the statement in the agreement:

      “JMC is owned by an entity formed in the United Kingdom…” and further says Johnson, Rossi etc have no ownership of that entity (phew).

      Maybe so.

      That would be a welcome development.

  • Zephir

    /* this means that the overall COP obtained during the test was over 50 */

    Nope, it doesn’t as the original sentence was

    /* According to the independent third party report, over the 352 day test period, the E-Cat consistently generated energy at a rate in excess of six (6) times the amount of energy consumed by the plant, often
    generating energy exceeding fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed during the same period…*/

    It means, the E-Cat had met the expectations, but the high efficiency claimed was restricted only to brief period of run. Now I don’t understand, for what the IH should pay the Andrea Rossi $89 Millions. No E-Cat plant has been actually sold to another customer, no license fees apply here..

    • artefact

      The complaint says:

      “71. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.
      … In fact, the ERV found that during the testing period, the average energy multiplier (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed) was often greater than sixty (60).”

  • Zephir

    /* this means that the overall COP obtained during the test was over 50 */

    Nope, it doesn’t as the original sentence was

    /* According to the independent third party report, over the 352 day test period, the E-Cat consistently generated energy at a rate in excess of six (6) times the amount of energy consumed by the plant, often
    generating energy exceeding fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed during the same period…*/

    It means, the E-Cat has met the initial expectations, but the high efficiency claimed was restricted only to (potentially) brief periods of run. Now I don’t understand, for what the IH should pay the Andrea Rossi $89 Millions? No E-Cat plant has been actually sold to another customer, no license fees apply here.. Instead of it IH subsidized the testing of E-Cat.

    • Robert Dorr

      If you read the legal filing by Rossi, it states the COP was 50 or more and sometimes as high as 60. All that the statement above means is that it exceeded the minimum COP of 6 (actually 50 and higher).

      • Zephir

        According to the independent third party report, over the 352 day test
        period, the E-Cat consistently generated energy at a rate in excess of
        six (6) times the amount of energy consumed by the plant, often generating energy exceeding fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed during the same period..

        Both texts come from Andrea Rossi – but they contradict each other. Your text implies the average COP 50 – 60, my text implies the average COP in the range 6 – 50.

        • artefact

          One text: bigger than 6 and often GREATER than 50.
          other text: average 50
          Both work for an average of 50.

          • cashmemorz

            Good analysis by use of group theory. Your interpretation /use of the numbers is sound.

    • artefact

      The complaint says:

      “71. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.
      … In fact, the ERV found that during the testing period, the average energy multiplier (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed) was often greater than sixty (60).”

      • Zephir

        Press release of Leonardo Corp. says otherwise. Apparently we need hard data here…

        http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cold-fusion-lenr-verified–inventor-sues-industrial-heat-llc-300247317.html

        • They are both correct, but the complaint are more specific

          • Zephir

            They cannot be both correct at the same moment.

            First text says, the E-Cat COP has been higher than 6 and occasionally reached the 50. The second text says, that the COP has been substantially higher than 50 and occasionally higher than 60.

            Both texts come from Andrea Rossi – but they contradict each other. Your text implies the average COP 50 – 60, my text implies the average COP in the range 6 – 50.

            The tendency to manipulate the facts is the route to the hell, as the mainstream physicists already know. The proponents of cold fusion shouldn’t repeat their mistakes – especially not if they haven’t won the battle yet.

          • Yes they can. Read again. You make stuff up, they say often above 50, not occasionally in the pressrelease. And average above 50 in the complaint. No contradiction.

            Agree about the manipulation, but you are the one that need a change of route.

          • artefact

            Yes. The press release says: “often generating energy exceeding fifty” and that it was higher than 6.
            An average COP is in line with it.
            They probably did not want to spill all the beans in the press release.

      • That should probably be ‘Energy Produced / Energy Consumed’, rather than ‘+’.

        • artefact

          Yes. It is an error in the document.

          • JiW

            It’s correct in the original document, but the division sign ÷ is a + sign when copy-pasting from the pdf. Optical character recognition, OCR, mistake on the scanned pdf?

          • artefact

            Thanks

          • Ah!

  • adriano

    Rossi’s statments always seems very promising: 3th Party Team, Private Customer, ERV… wich makes you think that everything is going in a really professional and trasparent way. But when the truth is revealed those statments always are delusional and way below expectations. They calimed this customer even paid them 1000$ per day. Can you imagine for a second a company that is already busy with their businness giving you permission to test a pseudo-tecnology in their plant and even giving you 1000$ per day wich equal to 350000$ just because, you know, we belive in you… You know who the “secret customer” is? The very guy who bought the container where Rossi spent the last year. No real factory. No real equipments. No real production lines. No real energy bills. I have always been skeptical about Rossi for several good reasons and I still am

    • Michael W Wolf

      No real patent application by IH? Say what you want, but IH applying for patents is incriminating evidence if you ask me. And they even applied as rossi’s co-inventor. they also gave him 10 million after their expert saw cop galore. IH also would/could not find a facility. Also incriminating. You think Rossi could have planned that too?

      There is a history of companies stealing IP from inventors. Is there a history of inventors conning multi-million dollar companies? comon’ I side with the inventor every time. And I am a capitalist.

      IH unbeknownst to Rossi disseminated the trade secrets and attempted to patent themselves. That is a breach of contract. Read the part of the contract that discusses patents. IH is guilty as sin on this count alone.

      • Zephir

        /* Which patent application of IH disseminated the trade secrets and attempted to patent themselves (link)? So far all patent applications were submitted by IH and Andrea Rossi together. */

        Whole 350 days of E-Cat test Andrea Rossi served as a cheaf research scientist FOR Industrial Heat. Therefore I’d see quite logical, if IH would also want to patent some results of this research. This research and its result belonged to Industrial Heat, not Andrea Rossi or Leonardo Corp. The Leonardo Corp. actually owns its vague patents only and it maintains intellectual property stolen from Piantelli via Foccardi.

      • Zephir

        /* Which patent application of IH disseminated the trade secrets and attempted to patent themselves (link)? So far all patent applications were submitted by IH and Andrea Rossi together. */

        Whole 350 days of E-Cat test Andrea Rossi served as a cheaf research scientist FOR Industrial Heat. Therefore I’d see quite logical, if IH would also want to patent some results of this research. This research and its result belongs to Industrial Heat, not Andrea Rossi or Leonardo Corp. The Leonardo Corp. actually owns its vague patents only and it maintains intellectual property stolen from Piantelli via Foccardi.

    • bachcole

      Please don’t flaunt your skeptopathology here. It is unseemly.

      • adriano

        lol

      • adriano

        lol

    • sam

      There where requirements that they
      had to meet to get paid.

  • gdaigle

    I do hope that this does not delay the public release of the ERV report. However, it might influence what is released to the public and what is held back if one party feels that they can use closely held IP as leverage over the other party.

    As a supporter of Steorn I do not relish this development, but it does make clear that introductions of profound technology breakthroughs are fraught with issues, both technical and otherwise.

    • Rossi may well chose to release all or part of it, regardless of NDAs etc., although IH certainly will not. However in view of the JMC shenanigans the credibility of the report will be severely degraded.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Yes, this renders the report essentially meaningless. The end is coming for Rossi. 🙁

        • Not so fast. From what we’re told Rossi, Penon and Industrial Heat each performed measurements on the plant.

          If Industrial Heat claims fraud then sure, throw out the report. But that seems unlikely to me.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            The writing’s on the wall. A crony of Rossi’s setting up the “customer company” and his pals doing the measurements. Even the electric bills cannot be trusted.

          • Characterizing Johnson as a crony is not fair. He is a lawyer doing lawyer things and a business associate of Rossi’s.

            He helped Rossi and a UK company (in which they have no ownership) set up a new company to host the test.

            Not every connection is nefarious.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            I don’t care if he is the Pope. Is it not nefarious that there is such a blatant connection between Leonardo and the customer when trying to conduct a sensitive test to prove the technology?

          • Well it sure would have been better if the UK entity had set up the company on their own.

            Kind of ranks up there with IH’s decision to allow Penon as the ERV.

            Basically we should be put in charge of managing this whole affair because we would do it 1000x better than the parties involved have been managing things so far.

          • Guy Thomas

            I’ve had my intellectual property stolen by a bigger company in the past – it’s not a nice thing to experience. I hope that Rossi is 100% successful in his litigation.

          • C. Kirk

            Perhaps your unaware… Rossi has no pals or friends
            Of course the electric bills can be trusted and will no doubt be used as evidence in the court case if there is a dispute over the COP

      • Michael W Wolf

        Well IH violated the contract. The contract is officially void. Now that it is in the courts, parties are told by their attorneys not to talk about the case. But the NDA no longer applies, right?

        • A confidentiality agreement would normally remain in force until officially dissolved by both parties, or one party ceased to exist.

  • gdaigle

    I do hope that this does not delay the public release of the ERV report. However, it might influence what is released to the public and what is held back if one party feels that they can use closely held IP as leverage over the other party.

    As a supporter of Steorn I do not relish this development, but it does make clear that introductions of profound technology breakthroughs are fraught with issues, both technical and otherwise.

    • Rossi may well chose to release all or part of it, regardless of NDAs etc., although IH certainly will not. However in view of the JMC shenanigans the credibility of the report will be severely degraded.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Yes, this renders the report essentially meaningless. The end is coming for Rossi. 🙁

        • Not so fast. From what we’re told Rossi, Penon and Industrial Heat each performed measurements on the plant.

          If Industrial Heat claims fraud then sure, throw out the report. But that seems unlikely to me.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            The writing’s on the wall. A crony of Rossi’s setting up the “customer company” and his pals doing the measurements. Even the electric bills cannot be trusted.

          • Characterizing Johnson as a crony is not fair. He is a lawyer doing lawyer things and a business associate of Rossi’s.

            He helped Rossi and a UK company (in which they have no ownership) set up a new company to host the test.

            Not every connection is nefarious.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            I don’t care if he is the Pope. Is it not nefarious that there is such a blatant connection between Leonardo and the customer when trying to conduct a sensitive test to prove the technology?

          • Well it sure would have been better if the UK entity had set up the company on their own.

            Kind of ranks up there with IH’s decision to allow Penon as the ERV.

            Basically we should be put in charge of managing this whole affair because we would do it 1000x better than the parties involved have been managing things so far.

          • C. Kirk

            Perhaps your unaware… Rossi has no pals or friends
            Of course the electric bills can be trusted and will no doubt be used as evidence in the court case if there is a dispute over the COP

      • Michael W Wolf

        Well IH violated the contract. The contract is officially void. Now that it is in the courts, parties are told by their attorneys not to talk about the case. But the NDA no longer applies, right?

        • A confidentiality agreement would normally remain in force until officially dissolved by both parties, or one party ceases to exist. Since the parties are at war though, Rossi might just give IH’s IP to all and sundry so that they gain nothing.

  • Sanjeev

    Since discussion has now moved to this thread, I would like to repost this here:

    Its somewhat strange that AR sold the rights of world changing IP in just $10m. AR shouldn’t have given them everything before full payment. At least not the catalyst.

    Another dilemma is, why were the $89m not in escrow, when there was escrow arrangement for $10m? Why did AR take such a big risk?

    • From his statements at the time he had bought in completely to the notion that he finally found the right people to trust and that they shared his goals.

      Maybe not. Or perhaps true and Darden/Vaughn have been put in difficult positions by their institutional and other investors.

      • Sanjeev

        Trust? hmmm..in this dog-eat-dog capitalist world, impossible 😉
        At least Rossi could have asked for part payments.

        • Sanjeev

          Another issue. Why no royalties were asked by Rossi? Why no share in license fee in case of sub-licensing.

          Basically he gave away the tech for peanuts.

  • Paging Mats Lewan.

    The situation has changed dramatically. Can you now divulge who told you that the plant was performing at a high COP. Was it Darden at ICCF?

    This would be a key piece of info, if true.

      • Interesting tidbit… Lewan claims two expert ERVs:
        “And although the test was finally undertaken, and successfully concluded recently—producing over 50 times more output energy than input energy (!), validated by two experts, paid for and chosen by IH and Rossi”

        I hope he can expand on that.

        • Teemu Soilamo

          Maybe he just means Fabiani and the other guy, whatshisface.

          • If IH chose to allow Penon and then paid Fabiani to be *their* guy in the container making measurements, I have to wonder what planet these people are on.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Seriously.

        • Sanjeev

          3 experts. Barry West and Fabiani from the side of IH, and Penon, the ERV.
          See #67 in the complaint.

          • Great, thanks! I missed that somehow.

            Do we know anything about Barry West?

          • Sanjeev

            Nothing so far. Hardly matters I think.

          • Billy Jackson

            so i am clear.. in the past of the e-cat before this test.. how were these 3 in anyway involved with past tests and validations..

          • Penon performed an earlier test of the E-Cat, I think in 2012.

            Fabiani I think was working alongside Rossi before IH co-opted him but I’m not sure about that one.

            I don’t know anything about West.

      • Michael W Wolf

        OH man, just looking at that photo, Tom Darden looks like a snake. Rossi looks like the absent minded scientist. lol

      • Michael W Wolf

        Rossi has been saying he hasn’t given all the details of the secret sauce, so to speak. I think this is the basis for IH not paying. They were going to screw him, but he held back enough to not let them have every secret needed for the incredible COP. Now that they can’t move forward without him. Isn’t that what happened to defkalion? They thought they had his tech. Made announcements and promises based on what they thought they got from him? Here we are, what? 4 years later and they have virtually disappeared. I am with Rossi now firmly. I hope I am right. With the information from MFMP, I think they know what is going on too.

        • Billy Jackson

          i thought some time ago rossi stated that IH has built a working replica of the e-cat with no involvement by him. that they have everything they need in case something happened to rossi?

          • Sanjeev

            That’s right. AR transferred all IP to IH including the secret catalyst. Else he wouldn’t have received the first $10m.
            Its possible that IH made the hot cat, and got it tested by Lugano team, using the IP.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t think so. The output from lugano was so low, the skeptics were able to attribute it to mistakes in measurement. If it had Rossi’s secret sauce, there would have been no mistake about the output. I mean if IH had the whole recipe, why so low output?
            I am telling you guys, Rossi didn’t give them everything and they at IH know it now. This will be their argument. I hope they lose because they breached the contract by applying for Rossi based patents. When the contract specifically states they cannot without the participation of Leonardo corp.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I know you can’t judge a book by its cover brother. But you must admit, the photo looks bad for Darden.

          • artefact

            On JONP:

            Janne: “.. I hope you will have other sources of MASSIVE financing…”

            “Andrea Rossi April 7, 2016 at 9:17 AM
            Janne:
            We are stronger than you can imagine.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.”

          • Teemu Soilamo

            He edited it?

            Andrea Rossi
            April 7, 2016 at 9:17 AM
            Janne:
            We have to fight. The work goes on well and sound. I will have to work harder, but this has never been a problem for me, thanks God.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.

            Did Rossi let something slide and immediately regretted it? Who is “we”? What powerful interests are backing Rossi?

            Between this and the President of Leonardo Corp being behind JMC, I feel so schizophrenic.

          • artefact

            Yes, he changed it. I was too quick 🙂
            We: Leonardo Corp consists of many people. He also is probably in contact with Companies for the rollout in Europe.

          • Ged

            I’m right there with you. Even after sleeping on it, each new revelation just keeps the head spinning.

          • When Rossi had his Christmas E-Cat X miracle and immediately walled off anybody else from studying it besides Leonardo Corp I got the sense that it was all just theater for some external reason.

            It appears now that the sudden jump in capability was perhaps a sudden reveal but not a sudden discovery and that its purpose was essentially to bolster an IP/negotiating position. My gut take anyway.

          • Billy Jackson

            that reveal could also have caused a more serious divide between them. As a licensee would you want the power to sell the iphone 3 knowing that in 6 months before you even have the first product out… that the iphone 6 is coming… i wouldn’t.. IH would expect to be able to sell any and all future e-cat products as updates to existing products…selling something that’s outdated before you make the first sale… that’s recipe for failure.

            this may come down to viewpoints on how you are looking at things.. so far we have 1 side of the story. it does not look good for IH but i will withhold overall judgement until i at least hear their side.

          • Agreed I definitely want to hear IH’s perspective. In fact, going into this affair I would assume greater professionalism from them than Rossi.

            But business can be brutal, especially with this kind of money and power at stake.

          • Sanjeev

            Section 13.4 of license agreement clearly says that IH will own the developed/derivative IP also. Also see the definition of “E-Cat IP”.
            IH ensured that the scenario you mention does not happen. So they own everything, LT, hotcat, ecatx, quarky thing etc etc.

          • US_Citizen71

            No they don’t own anything, they didn’t pay. Breach of contract ends the agreement and the license to use the IP.

          • Sanjeev

            They paid $10m for that. Anyway, the jury will decide.
            I’m just a bystander, enjoying the show 😀

          • US_Citizen71

            Me too!

          • Ged

            A good corporate mystery novel!

          • SG

            Well, technically they don’t own everything, but they *do* have a license to everything e-Cat related. They world was their oyster. And they threw the oyster back into the ocean.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            We must keep focused on who is the inventor/creator and who are the “money interests” looking for money and power.

          • IH have the bakelite and wood wall phone with a winding handle on the side. Rossi has the iPhone…

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Right, at that point Rossi realized what was going down, while he was in the container 16 hours a day, he was being ripped off.

          • US_Citizen71

            I do not think the debunkers of the Lugano report took into account a hot tungsten layer underneath the alumina. Alumina is semi-transparent to IR so hot metal underneath would show through and change everything. I am not saying the researchers were correct either, but they may have know about the tungsten and that could have something to do with the emissivity level they used.

          • Sanjeev

            I doubt the whole Tungsten story. The team was present when the fueling and sealing happened. Then they saw it being cut and ash extracted. They even analyzed the tube material (which was just Alumina). I find it strange that after all that they missed the Tungsten tube inside the reactor.

          • Sanjeev

            So why was the COP of Lugano reactor not 50, or even 20? This is an open question. May be it was just a prototype, a lab rat. At that time, it looked like they got it tested by academics just to get investments. It was about money, not science.

            If AR withheld critical info, then AR has nothing to worry about IH giving it away to his competitors. Still AR accuses IH of giving away the IP. These are self contradictory.

            The agreement clearly says, IH can file patents. I see no issues there.

          • Michael W Wolf

            They couldn’t file without Leanardo participation. And yea Rossi did sell IH a previous version Rossi had developed, before Rossi figured out the way to process the nickel. But even though Rossi moved past the Lagano tech, it doesn’t mean that IH can’t be guilty of stealing obsolete IP. It’s like there are 1000 dollars in a safe, and another safe has a million dollars. If the thief steals the thousand dollars, that don’t count?

          • Sanjeev

            The agreement has provision for IH filing the patents.
            IH owns all past and future versions of the IP. Its all in the agreement, you need to find it because its a scanned copy so I can’t copy paste for you 🙂

          • Albert D. Kallal

            I re-post:

            Actually the problem is not IH filing patients but shell companies that Darden created OUTSIDE of IH’s control filing such patents.

            IH/Daren asked for an amendment to the contract that Rossi agreed to that other companies could use the IP rights. The problem is Rossi claims he was misled that these other companies were under direct control of IH. This being the case, then Rossi would and did agree as long as the details of IH contract are respected.

            The problem is these companies are NOT owned or controlled by IH but by Darden and friends/foe. This is something that Rossi is not agreeing to.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • SG

            I disagree. Having reviewed the agreement, IH has a *license* to all past and future versions of the e-Cat developed by Mr. Rossi. In addition, IH owns any improvements that they themselves make.

          • Sanjeev

            They do. In addition, the term “After acquired/developed assets” are included in the definition of “ECat IP”. This should mean anything that LC/AR develop or invent in future is also ECat IP.

            I must admit that I’m not an expert in legal languages, so may be I’m interpreting it differently.

          • SG

            I think you might be misunderstanding the difference between a license and an outright transfer (i.e., assignment) of ownership. IH have (or at least had prior to the alleged breach) a license to all e-Cat related IP developed by Rossi/Leonardo. They do not have ownership of the Rossi/Leonardo IP. That said, IH *does* have ownership of their own improvements, as expressly set forth in the license agreement. That is probably why IH felt that they could file their own patent and get away with it.

          • We should remember that IH is just a Cherokee paper company, with no non-financial resources. If ‘IH’ have made improvements to the basic e-cat, then they must have passed Rossi’s IP to one or more third parties (probably the other LENR development groups they support). This in itself would almost certainly be a breach of their TOC with Leonardo.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I used the word “own” instead of “license the IP” but I understand that LC has not totally relinquished the ownership and IH gets only the right to use it (the details of use are mentioned in the agreement).
            With that correction, the point I was making is, IH has rights to use the future versions of tech based on ECat IP. And Rossi/LC are bound to provide the same to IH.

          • Zephir

            Actually if the second party objects the rights of IH for filling of patents, then the agreement may be violated as well – just from the side of A.Rossi and the IH isn’t obliged to pay anything to him.

          • Sanjeev

            Although I’m no expert and not sure, I agree. Its strange that Rossi allowed them to file patents for one full year and only now raised an objection. Perhaps no one told him?

          • US_Citizen71

            He might have been OK with the filing, not happy but OK and thought the $89 million was more important, but when he didn’t get paid he went ballistic. Rossi has likely known or suspected that he wasn’t going to get paid since the test ended. It does take a little time to produce a lawsuit and fill out the required paperwork to file it, it wasn’t done in one day.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, that can be a reason. He was waiting for the right moment.
            And as many have suspected, he had his guns loaded well in advance.

          • wpj

            The covenant not to compete (section 13-3) says clearly that they cannot have any people doing anything related to ecat type systems or competing systems.

            Mats Lewan knows that they were engaging people to look at the ecat and its workings which is clearly in breach.

          • Sanjeev

            If Lewan’s sources are correct, then it is disturbing.

          • Sanjeev

            13.3 actually prevents LC/Rossi from competing. Not clear if IH is also bound, except in the case of a breach by IH itself.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Actually the problem is not IH filing patients but shell companies that Darden created OUTSIDE of IH’s control filing such patents.

            IH/Daren asked for an amendment to the contract that Rossi agreed to that other companies could use the IP rights. The problem is Rossi claims he was misled that these other companies were under direct control of IH. This being the case, then Rossi would and did agree as long as the details of IH contract are respected by these companies.

            The problem is these companies are NOT owned or controlled by IH but by Darden and friends/foe. And that’s something Rossi not agreeing to.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Sanjeev

            I see your point. Actually Rossi must prove that in the court. That is provide an evidence that the other paper companies formed by them are not directly related to IH.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, that’s trivial – you just look at the incorporation papers. If they not from IH, then they are not from IH.

            As I pointed out, the real issue is damages. Since no e-cats been sold, then you can’t ask the courts for any damages and thus the fact of these companies having been created is very MOOT! So such lawsuits gain you nothing.

            However, the challenge in court will most certainly stop these other companies from attempting to sell ecats or anything based on Rossi’s technology.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • SG

            If you look back at the Lugano report, you will see that they purposely chose not to enable the self-sustain mode.

          • Sanjeev

            That’s right. They should have. It’d silence everyone. No input…period.
            Unfortunately, they did not, for whatever reason.

  • Paging Mats Lewan.

    The situation has changed dramatically. Can you now divulge who told you that the plant was performing at a high COP. Was it Darden at ICCF?

    This would be a key piece of info, if true.

      • Interesting tidbit… Lewan claims two expert ERVs:
        “And although the test was finally undertaken, and successfully concluded recently—producing over 50 times more output energy than input energy (!), validated by two experts, paid for and chosen by IH and Rossi”

        I hope he can expand on that.

        • Teemu Soilamo

          Maybe he just means Fabiani and the other guy, whatshisface.

          • If IH chose to allow Penon and then paid Fabiani to be *their* guy in the container making measurements, I have to wonder what planet these people are on.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Seriously.

        • Sanjeev

          3 experts. Barry West and Fabiani from the side of IH, and Penon, the ERV.
          See #67 in the complaint.

          • Great, thanks! I missed that somehow.

            Do we know anything about Barry West?

          • Sanjeev

            Nothing so far. Hardly matters I think.

          • Billy Jackson

            so i am clear.. in the past of the e-cat before this test.. how were these 3 in anyway involved with past tests and validations..

          • Penon performed an earlier test of the E-Cat, I think in 2012.

            Fabiani I think was working alongside Rossi before IH co-opted him but I’m not sure about that one.

            I don’t know anything about West.

      • Michael W Wolf

        OH man, just looking at that photo, Tom Darden looks like a snake. Rossi looks like the absent minded scientist. lol

        • bachcole

          LOL, your take couldn’t possibly be the result of the power of suggestion. Heck, 1 month ago they both looked like wonderful human beings to me.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I know you can’t judge a book by its cover brother. But you must admit, the photo looks bad for Darden.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Rossi has been saying he hasn’t given all the details of the secret sauce, so to speak. I think this is the basis for IH not paying. They were going to screw him, but he held back enough to not let them have every secret needed for the incredible COP. Now that they can’t move forward without him. Isn’t that what happened to defkalion? They thought they had his tech. Made announcements and promises based on what they thought they got from him? Here we are, what? 4 years later and they have virtually disappeared. I am with Rossi now firmly. I hope I am right. With the information from MFMP, I think they know what is going on too.

        • Billy Jackson

          i thought some time ago rossi stated that IH has built a working replica of the e-cat with no involvement by him. that they have everything they need in case something happened to rossi?

          • Sanjeev

            That’s right. AR transferred all IP to IH including the secret catalyst. Else he wouldn’t have received the first $10m.
            Its possible that IH made the hot cat, and got it tested by Lugano team, using the IP.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t think so. The output from lugano was so low, the skeptics were able to attribute it to mistakes in measurement. If it had Rossi’s secret sauce, there would have been no mistake about the output. I mean if IH had the whole recipe, why so low output?
            I am telling you guys, Rossi didn’t give them everything and they at IH know it now. This will be their argument. I hope they lose because they breached the contract by applying for Rossi based patents. When the contract specifically states they cannot without the participation of Leonardo corp.

          • US_Citizen71

            I do not think the debunkers of the Lugano report took into account a hot tungsten layer underneath the alumina. Alumina is semi-transparent to IR so hot metal underneath would show through and change everything. I am not saying the researchers were correct either, but they may have know about the tungsten and that could have something to do with the emissivity level they used.

          • Sanjeev

            I doubt the whole Tungsten story. The team was present when the fueling and sealing happened. Then they saw it being cut and ash extracted. They even analyzed the tube material (which was just Alumina). I find it strange that after all that they missed the Tungsten tube inside the reactor.

          • Sanjeev

            So why was the COP of Lugano reactor not 50, or even 20? This is an open question. May be it was just a prototype, a lab rat. At that time, it looked like they got it tested by academics just to get investments. It was about money, not science.

            If AR withheld critical info, then AR has nothing to worry about IH giving it away to his competitors. Still AR accuses IH of giving away the IP. These are self contradictory.

            The agreement clearly says, IH can file patents. I see no issues there.

          • Michael W Wolf

            They couldn’t file without Leanardo participation. And yea Rossi did sell IH a previous version Rossi had developed, before Rossi figured out the way to process the nickel. But even though Rossi moved past the Lagano tech, it doesn’t mean that IH can’t be guilty of stealing obsolete IP. It’s like there are 1000 dollars in a safe, and another safe has a million dollars. If the thief steals the thousand dollars, that don’t count?

          • Sanjeev

            The agreement has provision for IH filing the patents.
            IH owns all past and future versions of the IP. Its all in the agreement, you need to find it because its a scanned copy so I can’t copy paste for you 🙂

          • Albert D. Kallal

            I re-post:

            Actually the problem is not IH filing patients but shell companies that Darden created OUTSIDE of IH’s control filing such patents.

            IH/Daren asked for an amendment to the contract that Rossi agreed to that other companies could use the IP rights. The problem is Rossi claims he was misled that these other companies were under direct control of IH. This being the case, then Rossi would and did agree as long as the details of IH contract are respected.

            The problem is these companies are NOT owned or controlled by IH but by Darden and friends/foe. This is something that Rossi is not agreeing to.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Albert D. Kallal

            I re-post:

            Actually the problem is not IH filing patients but shell companies that Darden created OUTSIDE of IH’s control filing such patents.

            IH/Daren asked for an amendment to the contract that Rossi agreed to that other companies could use the IP rights. The problem is Rossi claims he was misled that these other companies were under direct control of IH. This being the case, then Rossi would and did agree as long as the details of IH contract are respected.

            The problem is these companies are NOT owned or controlled by IH but by Darden and friends/foe. This is something that Rossi is not agreeing to.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • SG

            I disagree. Having reviewed the agreement, IH has a *license* to all past and future versions of the e-Cat developed by Mr. Rossi. In addition, IH owns any improvements that they themselves make.

          • Sanjeev

            They do. In addition, the term “After acquired/developed assets” are included in the definition of “ECat IP”. This should mean anything that LC/AR develop or invent in future is also ECat IP.

            I must admit that I’m not an expert in legal languages, so may be I’m interpreting it differently.

          • SG

            I think you might be misunderstanding the difference between a license and an outright transfer (i.e., assignment) of ownership. IH have (or at least had prior to the alleged breach) a license to all e-Cat related IP developed by Rossi/Leonardo. They do not have ownership of the Rossi/Leonardo IP. That said, IH *does* have ownership of their own improvements, as expressly set forth in the license agreement. That is probably why IH felt that they could file their own patent and get away with it.

          • SG

            I think you might be misunderstanding the difference between a license and an outright transfer (i.e., assignment) of ownership. IH have (or at least had prior to the alleged breach) a license to all e-Cat related IP developed by Rossi/Leonardo. They do not have ownership of the Rossi/Leonardo IP. That said, IH *does* have ownership of their own improvements, as expressly set forth in the license agreement. That is probably why IH felt that they could file their own patent and get away with it.

          • We should remember that IH is just a Cherokee paper company, with no non-financial resources. If ‘IH’ have made improvements to the basic e-cat, then they must have passed Rossi’s IP to one or more third parties (probably the other LENR development groups they support). This in itself would almost certainly be a breach of their TOC with Leonardo, in addition to the over-extension breach described by Albert Kallal.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I used the word “own” instead of “license the IP” but I understand that LC has not totally relinquished the ownership and IH gets only the right to use it (the details of use are mentioned in the agreement).
            With that correction, the point I was making is, IH has rights to use the future versions of tech based on ECat IP. And Rossi/LC are bound to provide the same to IH.

          • Sanjeev

            They do. In addition, the term “After acquired/developed assets” are included in the definition of “ECat IP”. This should mean anything that LC/AR develop or invent in future is also ECat IP.

            I must admit that I’m not an expert in legal languages, so may be I’m interpreting it differently.

          • SG

            I disagree. Having reviewed the agreement, IH has a *license* to all past and future versions of the e-Cat developed by Mr. Rossi. In addition, IH owns any improvements that they themselves make.

          • Zephir

            Actually if the second party objects the rights of IH for filling of patents, then the agreement may be violated as well – just from the side of A.Rossi and the IH isn’t obliged to pay anything to him.

          • Sanjeev

            Although I’m no expert and not sure, I agree. Its strange that Rossi allowed them to file patents for one full year and only now raised an objection. Perhaps no one told him?

          • US_Citizen71

            He might have been OK with the filing, not happy but OK and thought the $89 million was more important, but when he didn’t get paid he went ballistic. Rossi has likely known or suspected that he wasn’t going to get paid since the test ended. It does take a little time to produce a lawsuit and fill out the required paperwork to file it, it wasn’t done in one day.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, that can be a reason. He was waiting for the right moment.
            And as many have suspected, he had his guns loaded well in advance.

          • wpj

            The covenant not to compete (section 13-3) says clearly that they cannot have any people doing anything related to ecat type systems or competing systems.

            Mats Lewan knows that they were engaging people to look at the ecat and its workings which is clearly in breach.

          • Sanjeev

            If Lewan’s sources are correct, then it is disturbing.

          • Sanjeev

            13.3 actually prevents LC/Rossi from competing. Not clear if IH is also bound, except in the case of a breach by IH itself.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Actually the problem is not IH filing patients but shell companies that Darden created OUTSIDE of IH’s control filing such patents.

            IH/Daren asked for an amendment to the contract that Rossi agreed to that other companies could use the IP rights. The problem is Rossi claims he was misled that these other companies were under direct control of IH. This being the case, then Rossi would and did agree as long as the details of IH contract are respected by these companies.

            The problem is these companies are NOT owned or controlled by IH but by Darden and friends/foe. And that’s something Rossi not agreeing to.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Actually the problem is not IH filing patients but shell companies that Darden created OUTSIDE of IH’s control filing such patents.

            IH/Daren asked for an amendment to the contract that Rossi agreed to that other companies could use the IP rights. The problem is Rossi claims he was misled that these other companies were under direct control of IH. This being the case, then Rossi would and did agree as long as the details of IH contract are respected by these companies.

            The problem is these companies are NOT owned or controlled by IH but by Darden and friends/foe. And that’s something Rossi not agreeing to.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Sanjeev

            I see your point. Actually Rossi must prove that in the court. That is provide an evidence that the other paper companies formed by them are not directly related to IH.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, that’s trivial – you just look at the incorporation papers. If they not from IH, then they are not from IH.

            As I pointed out, the real issue is damages. Since no e-cats been sold, then you can’t ask the courts for any damages and thus the fact of these companies having been created is very MOOT! So such lawsuits gain you nothing.

            However, the challenge in court will most certainly stop these other companies from attempting to sell ecats or anything based on Rossi’s technology.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • SG

            If you look back at the Lugano report, you will see that they purposely chose not to enable the self-sustain mode.

          • Sanjeev

            That’s right. They should have. It’d silence everyone. No input…period.
            Unfortunately, they did not, for whatever reason.

          • Sanjeev

            That’s right. They should have. It’d silence everyone. No input…period.
            Unfortunately, they did not, for whatever reason.

          • SG

            If you look back at the Lugano report, you will see that they purposely chose not to enable the self-sustain mode.

  • Michael W Wolf

    No one can question your integrity Frank. You have been a magnificent player in this saga. When are you going to move to the next phase? Write that book and you will not regret it.

  • Kim Patterson

    The money pie
    The Ego pie
    The Tech pie
    The IP pie
    The Patent Pie

    Sheesh…. Lets make a deal!

    Put Trump and the rest of all involved into a room and hammer it out.

    Respect
    Kim

  • JDM

    If Rossi is successful in this case and IH loses it’s license, Woodford gonna come out with both barrels smokin!

  • Billy Jackson

    my greatest fear is that due to the lawsuit this could effectively silence for the foreseeable future any news about the e-cat and its progress. Both parties are going to be under instructions by their lawyers to not speak about on going litigation for fear of them saying something wrong that gives the case to the other party.

    this has been mismanaged by both parties so badly that its just disgusting. reading Rossi’s suit it seemed that Cherokee was out to take the IP from the word go with all the shell games they were playing with all the new llc creations moving things around like that for no reason.

    Last but not least involving anyone from past tests or validations with the 1 year test instantly causes issues.. how either party would allow blows my mind we have had years to debate what needs to be done.. and the fact that both IH and Rossi ignored all the warning signs… i suddenly feel that the entire test was wasted and we lost more than a year of progress due to potential taint that will be cast over the whole test..

    Regardless of the outcome the whole mess is almost tailor made in a step by step in how to destroy all of the e-cats progress and our hopes and dreams all because of greed.

    Seriously unhappy.

    • Michael W Wolf

      PSST, IH don’t have the secret sauce preparation method. I think this is why they won’t pay. They feel Rossi breached the contract by holding it back. Rossi has said he taught them everything they know, but not everything he knows. Mark my words this will be IH’s claim. Not that it didn’t work. LENR is just fine. However, it might delay Rossi enough for Mills to show the real power of this technology, making Rossi’s reactor look like the toy version.

      • US_Citizen71

        I wouldn’t hold your breath where Mills is concerned, his promises on products and their delivery is about equal to those of hot fusion. He appears to be brilliant but everything he has said he would produce has been nothing but vaporware.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Not so. fusion has had hundreds of billions, Mills has had tens of millions. Piantelli has confirmed Mills tech. Piantelli’s knowledge has led to the ecat. Mills is brilliant. He invented MSI. You know how many medical centers now use it? His theory may not be 100% accurate, but is any theory? “Now Mills, he’s the one”. Quote from Piantelli. Hell of a compliment from a competitor.

      • wpj

        Appendix A of the agreement suggests that they do have it; all IP in that was transferred after the $10m payment.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Yea, IH has the IP of the reactor they built at Lagano. Where the output was so low, it could have been measurement mistakes. Rossi’s version is over 50 COP. You think IH version at Lagano put out 50 COP? This is why they didn’t pay and will accuse Rossi of breach of contract.

          • Billy Jackson

            the Lagano test was 1 core. the plant is multiple cores nor do we know the configuration or run times of each core.. combined with high self sustaining modes .. they very well could out perform a single core..

          • Michael W Wolf

            Billy, 50 COP is 50 COP, no matter how many brother. If the Lagano was even 10 COP it would have been obvious. IH didn’t have what Rossi put into that container. And they are pissed. lol

          • Billy Jackson

            I am not saying you are wrong at all. Its one of those things we can debate and neither of us be wrong in our view points.. but without the final data we are both pissing in the wind 🙂

          • Michael W Wolf

            I know. But whatever was in Lagano wasn’t in that container. If in fact what Matts says is true.

          • NT

            I like your wind part – so true at this point in time…

          • Ted-X

            IH has the patents. The patents do not disclose the secret CATALYST, so the patents have a very low value. The CATALYST remains as a trade secret of Rossi. This might be the second factor. The first factor is that Darden was told to do what he is doing or else….

          • Zephir

            The situation may be quite opposite one: the IH developed significant improvement of E-Cat technology, whereas A. Rossi is capable of doing COP ~ 6 only (from Bologna over Lugano to first E-Cat 1 MW test). Just my point, I’ve not evidence for it – only indicia.

          • wpj

            If so they have breach the covenant, section 13.3

    • Wasting a year may have been intentional. The best hope IMO is if Rossi decides that the corporate game is lost, and decides to sell licenses to manufacture to all comers for an affordable price. The IP would very quickly enter the public domain, but in the meantime AR would break IH, see his dream of universal adoption of e-cats come true, be fully recognised and incidentally make enough to live on comfortably for many lifetimes.

    • Zephir

      /* this could effectively silence for the foreseeable future any news about the e-cat and its progress */

      IMO it could be even the main reason of the IH and USA government involvement in the E-Cat after all. They tend to embrace all important patents and close them into treasury for years.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/2ojeab/the_us_government_has_a_secret_system_for

      https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/2yyqvm/us_patent_office_issues_final_rejection_of_rossis

      The Italians are silly, they should launch their technology by itself. But because they’re as greedy as the Americans and envious in addition, they couldn’t collect any money for it.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yea Z I said about the government and that I smelled a rat. But I think that is not the case. It looks to me that IH tried the same crap Defkalion tried on Rossi and didn’t get what they thought hey were getting. Ecat works in my scenario.

        • clovis ray

          well said Michael,

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I haven’t had time to read the comments at all, not even all the original documents, but just some as-I-see-it-now answers to Frank’s question about where can Rossi get money for his massive market entry if he doesn’t get the $90M from IH. It’s of course possible that he has meanwhile found another investor behind the scenes. Another possibility is that maybe he intends to make money by selling electricity. In that way, perhaps the amount of initial capital that he has now (maybe $10M) is sufficient to start the exponential growth.

    • But only if the e-cat X is at a point where it can be built into some useful product, and Rossi has the means to get appropriate safety standards written, and the product safety-certified against them. After that he would probably be reduced to hiring a few dozen unemployed science and engineering graduates to hand-build products in the disused factory where the pilot plant resides. At least he would save on space heating costs.

      • US_Citizen71

        Heating is not a problem in Miami pretty much year round. ; ) Money may not be that hard to come by either to build out a few plants for electricity, but I do not think that selling electricity will make money fast enough to get production going. Rossi needs an old rich guy who is ready to stick out his middle finger to the rest of the 1%, T. Boone Pickens maybe?

        • clovis ray

          i like T boone, but not enought money, he has money but most invested in wind and n gas, but believe you me, there are lots of folks out there that would jump at the chance, to lay hands on the golden goose.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I was thinking of completing the automated factory, producing lots of X’s with it (configured to make electricity) and renting or buying an abandoned electric power plant side which has the high amperage grid connections ready where to place them. In the best case Rossi could do that with a team of 5-10 people. Once he produces electricity with profit, he can go to a bank to get capital.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I haven’t had time to read the comments at all, not even all the original documents, but just some as-I-see-it-now answers to Frank’s question about where can Rossi get money for his massive market entry if he doesn’t get the $90M from IH. It’s of course possible that he has meanwhile found another investor behind the scenes. Another possibility is that maybe he intends to make money by selling electricity. In that way, perhaps the amount of initial capital that he has now (maybe $10M) is sufficient to start the exponential growth.

    • But only if the e-cat X is at a point where it can be built into some useful product, and Rossi has the means to get appropriate safety standards written, and the product safety-certified against them. After that he would probably be reduced to hiring a few dozen unemployed science and engineering graduates to hand-build products in the disused factory where the pilot plant resides. At least he would save on space heating costs.

      • US_Citizen71

        Heating is not a problem in Miami pretty much year round. ; ) Money may not be that hard to come by either to build out a few plants for electricity, but I do not think that selling electricity will make money fast enough to get production going. Rossi needs an old rich guy who is ready to stick out his middle finger to the rest of the 1%, T. Boone Pickens maybe?

        • clovis ray

          i like T boone, but not enought money, he has money but most invested in wind and n gas, but believe you me, there are lots of folks out there that would jump at the chance, to lay hands on the golden goose.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I was thinking of completing the automated factory, producing lots of X’s with it (configured to make electricity) and renting or buying an abandoned electric power plant side which has the high amperage grid connections ready where to place them. In the best case Rossi could do that with a team of 5-10 people. Once he produces electricity with profit, he can go to a bank to get capital.

  • Zephir

    According to the independent third party report, over the 352 day test
    period, the E-Cat consistently generated energy at a rate in excess of
    six (6) times the amount of energy consumed by the plant, often generating energy exceeding fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed during the same period..

    Both texts come from Andrea Rossi – but they contradict each other. Your text implies the average COP 50 – 60, my text implies the average COP in the range 6 – 50.

    • artefact

      On text: bigger than 6 and often GREATER than 50.
      other text: average 50
      Both work for an average of 50.

      • cashmemorz

        Good analysis by use of group theory. Your interpretation /use of the numbers is sound.

  • Zephir

    /* People insist upon protecting and promoting their egos, and then they
    wonder why they are all alone and unproductive. (Credit AlainCo for
    that thought.) */

    This is actually what the whole one century standing history of cold fusion research is about..

  • PappyYokum

    There is too much drama involved here.
    Rossi creates a dummy “customer” for the test and hires an associate as the “independent” monitor? And Industrial Heat was OK with that?
    It seems to me that a hundred million dollars is small change for something that magnifies energy by 50 times. That amount of money is like one weekend box office for a summer film. If Cherokee has any credibility, it would be easy to borrow that amount.
    And Cherokee created a shell company with no assets, Industrial Heat, in order to leave Rossi holding the bag after absconding with his technology – which doesn’t work?
    So Rossi sat in a shipping container with his Ecats hooked to nothing for a year pretending to generate energy waiting for the pay day while Industrial Heat plotted to cheat Rossi out of his intellectual property which, through due diligence, knew was worthless?
    Was this a case of bad faith on both sides? Was it a plot to steal investors’ money?
    Now that the lawyers and courts are handling it, the resolution to this will be years away. I thought this secret customer at a secret site for a year long test was very strange from the start. Now it is even stranger.
    I only hope it will result in a product people can buy and use before this tragic theatre plays itself out.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Read the contract. Then read the complaint. IH breached the contract when they filed for patents without leanardo corp. Case closed IMO. lol I can see Rossi with the shipping container in the back of the courthouse if IH claims there was no output. Rossi held back all the details of the tech and IH thinks he breached the contract. That will be the issue I think. They were going to steal his IP, but Rossi protected himself. Now all they have was that rinky dink reactor they built for Lugano which produced so little energy, skeptics were able to say there were measurement mistakes. lol

      • Brent Buckner

        You wrote: “IH breached the contract when they filed for patents without leanardo corp.”

        As I understand the last sentence of 13.4, under the agreement IH would have the right to file for patents based upon IH’s discoveries without having any obligation respective of Leonardo.

        • Zephir

          I think the same, A. Rossi will lose the case and money – he breached the contract with IH instead, once he prohibited the IH in getting the new patents. And the E-Cat technology will get under USA control, as it has been planned from its very beginning.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well, it all comes down to if they have both breached the contract, the first one to breach makes the contract void, so the second breach is not a breach at all. We will see.

        • Michael W Wolf

          “discovered” We will see. IH unbeknownst to Rossi disseminated the trade secrets and attempted to patent themselves. We will see.

          • Brent Buckner

            Yes, we’ll see what claims IH makes. Perhaps they will claim that the alleged dissemination of trade secrets was allowed by the sublicensing provision of Section 1, noting that the definition of E-Cat IP in the preamble includes trade secrets.

          • Brent Buckner

            I see a duty of confidentiality for Rossi/Leonardo respective of trade secrets per 16.4, but I don’t see anything explicitly requiring confidentiality from IH respective of trade secrets. Perhaps IH will claim they had no duty!

          • Brent Buckner

            I see a duty of confidentiality for Rossi/Leonardo respective of trade secrets per 16.4, but I don’t see anything explicitly requiring confidentiality from IH respective of trade secrets. Perhaps IH will claim they had no duty!

        • wpj

          No, section 13.3 effectively stops that; what they have are rights to future developments by Leonardo.

          • Brent Buckner

            I believe that is a restriction on Rossi, Leonardo, and Associates (up until the breach contingency).

          • wpj

            Yes, you are correct!

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, my understanding is the same. 13.3 actually prevents LC/Rossi from competing. Not clear if IH is also bound, except in the case of a breach by IH itself.
            IH has a firm grip on Rossi here. You can say, not very fair.

        • Michael W Wolf

          read 13.3

          • Brent Buckner

            Yes, I believe that is a restriction on Rossi, Leonardo, and Associates (up until the breach contingency).

          • wpj

            It is also correct that IH can do work on improvements and it remains their property as outlined in 13.4.

    • Ged

      I dunno, it’s all so hazy. Heck, there could even be a pepsi plant involved, that is how confused all the digging into this has become.

      What makes sense the most to me, at this -current- time, is if IH was a honey pot to lure in Rossi and get the necessary details to replicate his tech so no one inventor could control it. This would be in line with Darden’s world view for new, pollution reducing technology. Also would explain why IH was saying it was pleased with its portfolio in that last release!

    • Sanjeev

      A small detail – Penon is not Rossi’s associate, and there is no connection except familiarity, as far as I know (if someone knows of any connection, please comment). However, Penon has bad reputation because of the very sloppy test he performed (the 24 hour test). IH was apparently happy with it, as they immediately paid $10m and bought the whole IP from AR.

      • Ged

        Yeah, from these documents it looks like Penon is/was IH’s man. IH also signed off on the protocols for each of the tests. So… Yeah.

  • artefact

    Thanks

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    Janne: “.. I hope you will have other sources of MASSIVE financing…”

    “Andrea Rossi April 7, 2016 at 9:17 AM
    Janne:
    We are stronger than you can imagine.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • Teemu Soilamo

      He edited it?

      Andrea Rossi
      April 7, 2016 at 9:17 AM
      Janne:
      We have to fight. The work goes on well and sound. I will have to work harder, but this has never been a problem for me, thanks God.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      Did Rossi let something slide and immediately regretted it? Who is “we”? What powerful interests are backing Rossi?

      Between this and the President of Leonardo Corp being behind JMC, I feel so schizophrenic.

      • artefact

        Yes, he changed it. I was too quick 🙂
        We: Leonardo Corp consists of many people. He also is probably in contact with Companies for the rollout in Europe.

      • Ged

        I’m right there with you. Even after sleeping on it, each new revelation just keeps the head spinning.

        • When Rossi had his Christmas E-Cat X miracle and immediately walled off anybody else from studying it besides Leonardo Corp I got the sense that it was all just theater for some external reason.

          It appears now that the sudden jump in capability was perhaps a sudden reveal but not a sudden discovery and that its purpose was essentially to bolster an IP/negotiating position. My gut take anyway.

          • Billy Jackson

            that reveal could also have caused a more serious divide between them. As a licensee would you want the power to sell the iphone 3 knowing that in 6 months before you even have the first product out… that the iphone 6 is coming… i wouldn’t.. IH would expect to be able to sell any and all future e-cat products as updates to existing products…selling something that’s outdated before you make the first sale… that’s recipe for failure.

            this may come down to viewpoints on how you are looking at things.. so far we have 1 side of the story. it does not look good for IH but i will withhold overall judgement until i at least hear their side.

          • Agreed I definitely want to hear IH’s perspective. In fact, going into this affair I would assume greater professionalism from them than Rossi.

            But business can be brutal, especially with this kind of money and power at stake.

          • Billy Jackson

            key words.. money and power…. no one is immune after it hits a certain dollar amount. I am sure that there are always some that could walk away from that… but the ecat represents one hell of a temptation.

          • Sanjeev

            Section 13.4 of license agreement clearly says that IH will own the developed/derivative IP also. Also see the definition of “E-Cat IP”.
            IH ensured that the scenario you mention does not happen. So they own everything, LT, hotcat, ecatx, quarky thing etc etc.

          • US_Citizen71

            No they don’t own anything, they didn’t pay. Breach of contract ends the agreement and the license to use the IP.

          • Sanjeev

            They paid $10m for that. Anyway, the jury will decide.
            I’m just a bystander, enjoying the show 😀

          • US_Citizen71

            Me too!

          • Ged

            A good corporate mystery novel!

          • clovis ray

            It was their fault, they lost it, when they breached their contract.
            That simple enough to understand,

          • SG

            Well, technically they don’t own everything, but they *do* have a license to everything e-Cat related. The world was their oyster. And they threw the oyster back into the ocean.

          • SG

            Well, technically they don’t own everything, but they *do* have a license to everything e-Cat related. The world was their oyster. And they threw the oyster back into the ocean.

          • clovis ray

            Is that wishful thinking or what, you can’t believe that, section 13.4 means nothing, when I/H , tried to patent his discovery without his consent. what would you do, oh, i forget, you would give it all away, right.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            We must keep focused on who is the inventor/creator and who are the “money interests” looking for money and power.

          • IH have the bakelite and wood wall phone with a winding handle on the side. Rossi has the iPhone…

          • IH have the bakelite and wood wall phone with a winding handle on the side. Rossi has the iPhone…

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Right, at that point Rossi realized what was going down, while he was in the container 16 hours a day, he was being ripped off.

          • clovis ray

            yep

  • sam

    There where requirements that they
    had to meet to get paid.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Read the contract. Then read the complaint. IH breached the contract when they filed for patents without leanardo corp. Case closed IMO. lol I can see Rossi with the shipping container in the back of the courthouse if IH claims there was no output. Rossi held back all the details of the tech and IH thinks he breached the contract. That will be the issue I think. They were going to steal his IP, but Rossi protected himself. Now all they have was that rinky dink reactor they built for Lugano which produced so little energy, skeptics were able to say there were measurement mistakes. lol

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “IH breached the contract when they filed for patents without leanardo corp.”

      As I understand the last sentence of 13.4, under the agreement IH would have the right to file for patents based upon IH’s discoveries without having any obligation respective of Leonardo.

      • Zephir

        I think the same, A. Rossi will lose the case and money – he breached the contract with IH instead, once he prohibited the IH in getting the new patents.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Well, it all comes down to if they have both breached the contract, the first one to breach makes the contract void, so the second breach is not a breach at all. We will see.

      • Michael W Wolf

        “discovered” We will see. IH unbeknownst to Rossi disseminated the trade secrets and attempted to patent themselves. We will see.

        • Brent Buckner

          Yes, we’ll see what claims IH makes. Perhaps they will claim that the alleged dissemination of trade secrets was allowed by the sublicensing provision of Section 1, noting the the definition of E-Cat IP in the preamble includes trade secrets.

        • Brent Buckner

          I see a duty of confidentiality for Rossi/Leonardo respective of trade secrets per 16.4, but I don’t see anything explicitly requiring confidentiality from IH respective of trade secrets. Perhaps IH will claim they had no duty!

      • wpj

        No, section 13.3 effectively stops that; what they have are rights to future developments by Leonardo.

        • Brent Buckner

          I believe that is a restriction on Rossi, Leonardo, and Associates (up until the breach contingency).

          • wpj

            Yes, you are correct!

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, my understanding is the same. 13.3 actually prevents LC/Rossi from competing. Not clear if IH is also bound, except in the case of a breach by IH itself.
            IH has a firm grip on Rossi here. You can say, not very fair.

      • Michael W Wolf

        read 13.3

        • Brent Buckner

          Yes, I believe that is a restriction on Rossi, Leonardo, and Associates (up until the breach contingency).

          • wpj

            It is also correct that IH can do work on improvements and it remains their property as outlined in 13.4.

  • catfish

    The Wright Brothers and Curtis all over again. the state of the art COULD be held back be legal wrangling. In the case of airplanes, there were European developers that could thumb their nose at the patent war going on in America and start real aircraft development.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      One big difference, thanks to Rossi, this is being played out in public

      • catfish

        The Wrights-Curtiss patent wars were very much played out in public.They were top page stories for years. Henry Ford got involved on Curtiss’s side and provided him money as he to wanted to get into the industry. Meanwhile the Europeans were setting distant records. If there’s any hope in the immediate future, it’s probably with MFMP.

        Truthfully, there are a lot of people who would benefit from the Rossi patent having no teeth. I’m just very curious of Industrial Heat says the test did not work, or if they argue points on contract.

        More than anything, I’m interested in the actual customer. They paid the bills. They KNOW if it works.

      • NT

        And thankfully we now have this internet thingy…

  • Ged

    Frank, have you been able to get into contact with anyone at IH? Not about the legal part of the case, but just to verify plant performance, ERV, and customer? We don’t need the legal stuff, just the practical facts, as they see it.

    • Frank Acland

      No, no response to my inquiries.

      • Ged

        Thank you for trying!

      • Michael W Wolf

        Oh we are only concerned about bringing the tech to the world. So we won’t tell them a darn thing. It ain’t about the money with us. SMH

  • Ged

    Frank, have you been able to get into contact with anyone at IH? Not about the legal part of the case, but just to verify plant performance, ERV, and customer? We don’t need the legal stuff, just the practical facts, as they see it.

    • Frank Acland

      No, no response to my inquiries.

      • Ged

        Thank you for trying!

      • Michael W Wolf

        Oh we are only concerned about bringing the tech to the world. So we won’t tell them a darn thing. It ain’t about the money with us. SMH

        • clovis ray

          yea, right

  • Ged

    I dunno, it’s all so hazy. Heck, there could even be a pepsi plant involved, that is how confused all the digging into this has become.

    What makes sense the most to me, at this -current- time, is if IH was a honey pot to lure in Rossi and get the necessary details to replicate his tech so no one inventor could control it. This would be in line with Darden’s world view for new, pollution reducing technology. Also would explain why IH was saying it was pleased with its portfolio in that last release!

  • Yes they can. Read again. You make stuff up, they say often above 50, not occasionally in the pressrelease. And average above 50 in the complaint. No contradiction.

    Agree about the manipulation, but you are the one that need a change of route.

  • Jan Luszczek

    This has all the signs of a scam. I read with great interest all the e-cat the stories some years ago, but lost interest after a while since nothing of importance was ever delivered. Now, three or four years later I stumble on a story and find the e-cat pretty much where it was then. Nothing but conjecture, speculations, promises, bickering, grand standing and general chaos. How many here lasted all that time uninterrupted? I take the cheering crowd has a turn over rate of maybe 6 months.
    AR looks to me like a small time crook trying to keep his con going as long as possible.

    • Ged

      I’ve been watching since 2011, so much longer than 6 months. Also, Penon is not an associate of Rossi’s, it turns out, but was tapped by IH for the first test years ago and agreed upon by both parties. The testing protocols were also agreed upon by IH. So, there should be no surprises for IH at any step of the way. IH has also been patenting Rossi’s tech, and saying how pleased they are with their portfolio, so make of that what one wills.

      We really just need to hear from IH.

      • Slad

        Are you sure Penon was first contacted by IH?

        • Ged

          That’s the way it sounds in the filing. At the very least, they were involved in his selection at the very start. IH has been in the picture longer than we ever knew.

    • enantiomer2000

      I am in the same boat

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      You have got to be kidding me, you missed a lot during those years away from LENR, read before you make judgments.

    • clovis ray

      you absolutely, have any idea what you’re talking about , you just think you do,
      You’re just shooting your mouth off.

  • Sanjeev

    A small detail – Penon is not Rossi’s associate, and there is no connection except familiarity, as far as I know (if someone knows of any connection, please comment). However, Penon has bad reputation because of the very sloppy test he performed (the 24 hour test). IH was apparently happy with it, as they immediately paid $10m and bought the whole IP from AR.

    • Ged

      Yeah, from these documents it looks like Penon is/was IH’s man. IH also signed off on the protocols for each of the tests. So… Yeah.

  • SteveA

    I think we really need a statement by IH/Cherokee on the whole situation. Are they saying it doesn’t work? The test was fraudulent? They can’t come out looking like they were taken or they are likely done as a company. I really don’t like the details coming out now (“fake” customer, previous associate as ERV, contract set up as big lump sum payoff), so right now nothing would surprise me. But I tell you, if this is a whole big scam it is probably the biggest most elaborate scam ever perpetrated. My hat’s off.

    • Ged

      Maria Duval would like her best scam of all time award back.

  • bfast

    This whole debacle is so, so, American. Rossi should have stayed in Italy. It sooo makes no sense that IH would bite the hand that feeds it. This technology is worth probably trillions to IH, why would they be risking any of it by breaching any part of the contract with Rossi? And Mr. Darden claims that his motives are to rescue the planet. Why would he try to do so by fiddling around in law courts against his candy man?

    The whole thing is just dumb and stupid and so, so, American.

    • Ged

      Noble cause corruption, perhaps. It routinely makes good people do insane things.

    • Billy Jackson

      they may feel they don’t need Rossi anymore (just playing devils advocate) if they have everything they need to replicate or pursue a different but more effective path.. what incentive is there to share profits with someone you don’t need.. this is business 101..

      at certain levels of money personal concerns are removed and if you don’t dot every I and cross every T .. you could very well sell everything out from under yourself unintentionally.. contracts are only as good as the lawyers that make and read them.

      We have all heard stories where this happens the little guy gets the shaft while the corporations walk away with mega profits, aka a writer submits a great story to hollywood studios.. they listen are excited say thanks.. but no thanks.. 6 months later the guy is watching his story on TV but with minor tweaks to make it “different enough” that he has no claim.

      I dont know what the true story is.. i just know that it stinks from both sides.

      • I’ve had exactly that experience with a non-fiction book synopsis I offered to a well known UK publisher. (Actually it was the whole book, with a few sample photos, that I submitted – rather stupid in retrospect). The book took me the best part of 4 months of research (pre-internet) to write, and the book they published 6 months later, supposedly written by an in-house author, was about 80% identical to my draft. It leaves a very nasty taste.

    • Zephir

      My theory was, without IH involvement the A. Rossi would never get the US patent anyway, because the USA government is pretty careful in granting legal rights to strangers and technologies from another countries.

      • US_Citizen71

        Rossi is a naturalized citizen I believe.

        • Zephir

          He has still Italian citizenship and USA government just wanted to have American flag behind E-Cat patent – not Italian or someone else one…

          http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/IMG_6549.jpg

          • US_Citizen71

            Many people in the US have dual citizenship, it is not that uncommon.

          • asey

            Including me.:)

          • NT

            If memory serves me correctly, I believe his first e-cat patent was issued in Italy…

          • Frank Acland

            I don’t think the US government orchestrated this picture. Rossi says the flag was a gift from Tom Darden which had flown over the US Capitol. Rossi loves the USA as he said it gave him his second chance.

      • Ged

        I’ve been watching since 2011, so much longer than 6 months. Also, Penon is not an associate of Rossi’s, it turns out, but was tapped by IH for the first test years ago and agreed upon by both parties. The testing protocols were also agreed upon by IH. So, there should be no surprises for IH at any step of the way. IH has also been patenting Rossi’s tech, and saying how pleased they are with their portfolio, so make of that what one wills.

        We really just need to hear from IH.

        • Slad

          Are you sure Penon was first contacted by IH?

          • Ged

            That’s the way it sounds in the filing. At the very least, they were involved in his selection at the very start. IH has been in the picture longer than we ever knew.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Well it isn’t America’s fault Rossi couldn’t find money in the great Europe. Europe is home of the nothing is real unless we say it is. We ain’t giving any money to anyone except our establishment friends. Yea America sucks. You guys threw Rossi in prison. Yea, let’s rely on Europe. Hey let’s build another Hadron collider! We have plenty of cash to throw away.

  • bfast

    This whole debacle is so, so, American. Rossi should have stayed in Italy. It sooo makes no sense that IH would bite the hand that feeds it. This technology is worth probably trillions to IH, why would they be risking any of it by breaching any part of the contract with Rossi? And Mr. Darden claims that his motives are to rescue the planet. Why would he try to do so by fiddling around in law courts against his candy man?

    The whole thing is just dumb and stupid and so, so, American.

    • Ged

      Noble cause corruption, perhaps. It routinely makes good people do insane things.

    • Billy Jackson

      they may feel they don’t need Rossi anymore (just playing devils advocate) if they have everything they need to replicate or pursue a different but more effective path.. what incentive is there to share profits with someone you don’t need.. this is business 101..

      at certain levels of money personal concerns are removed and if you don’t dot every I and cross every T .. you could very well sell everything out from under yourself unintentionally.. contracts are only as good as the lawyers that make and read them.

      We have all heard stories where this happens the little guy gets the shaft while the corporations walk away with mega profits, aka a writer submits a great story to hollywood studios.. they listen are excited say thanks.. but no thanks.. 6 months later the guy is watching his story on TV but with minor tweaks to make it “different enough” that he has no claim.

      I dont know what the true story is.. i just know that it stinks from both sides.

      • I’ve had exactly that experience with a non-fiction book synopsis I offered to a certain well known UK publisher. (Actually it was almost the whole book, with a few sample photos, that I submitted – rather stupid in retrospect). The text took me the best part of 4 months of research (pre-internet) to write, and the book they published 6 months later, supposedly written by an in-house author, was about 80% identical to my draft but with inferior photographs. It leaves a very nasty taste.

      • I’ve had exactly that experience with a non-fiction book synopsis I offered to a certain well known UK publisher. (Actually it was almost the whole book, with a few sample photos, that I submitted – rather stupid in retrospect). The text took me the best part of 4 months of research (pre-internet) to write, and the book they published 6 months later, supposedly written by an in-house author, was about 80% identical to my draft but with inferior photographs. It leaves a very nasty taste.

    • Zephir

      My theory was, without IH involvement the A. Rossi would never get the US patent anyway, because the USA government is pretty careful in granting legal rights to strangers and technologies from another countries.

      • US_Citizen71

        Rossi is a naturalized citizen I believe.

        • Zephir

          He has still Italian citizenship and USA government just wanted to have American flag behind E-Cat patent – not Italian or someone else one…

          http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/IMG_6549.jpg

          • US_Citizen71

            Many people in the US have dual citizenship, it is not that uncommon.

          • asey

            Including me.:)

          • asey

            Including me.:)

          • NT

            If memory serves me correctly, I believe his first e-cat patent was issued in Italy…

          • Frank Acland

            I don’t think the US government orchestrated this picture. Rossi says the flag was a gift from Tom Darden which had flown over the US Capitol. Rossi loves the USA as he said it gave him his second chance.

          • bachcole

            Curious how the rest of us natives take it so much for granted and even complain about it, sometimes ad nauseum.

          • clovis ray

            what a great picture, the cat that has ate the canary smile,
            Thanks kind sir, and job almost done, hang in there.

    • enantiomer2000

      Most likely scenario is Rossi was duping them so they decided to bail on their relationship.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Well it isn’t America’s fault Rossi couldn’t find money in the great Europe. Europe is home of the nothing is real unless we say it is. We ain’t giving any money to anyone except our establishment friends. Yea America sucks. You guys threw Rossi in prison. Yea, let’s rely on Europe. Hey let’s build another Hadron collider! We have plenty of cash to throw away.

  • SteveW

    Now it makes sense why Andre Rossi had to practically live in the 1 MW plant to keep it running. At the start of the year long test, IH knew the 1 MW plant design had become obsolete, but it had to live up to the original contract. It always seemed strange why IH couldn’t find a technician to do this low level job so Rossi’s time could be spent doing more important research. IH wanted the test to fail to deprive AR of the money he could then use to develop his e-cat x whithout IH. Perhaps under the agreement, Rossi could spend as much time in the plant as he wanted, but IH did not have to provide any technicians to keep it running since it’s suppose to be a test of a commercially vaible product and shouldn’t need continous monitoring.

    For 90 million dollars would you spend 16 hours a day for a year in shipping container? Evidently, for Andrea Rossi the answer was yes.

    I can’t wait for the movie to come out.

    This is all speculation.

    • Ged

      “The Impossible Invention” coming soon, Summer 2018.

  • Ged

    Maria Duval would like her best scam of all time award back.

  • Bruce Williams

    Frank, I think you have summed up very well how many of us who follow your blog must feel. Thank you.

  • Bruce Williams

    Frank, I think you have summed up very well how many of us who follow your blog must feel. Thank you.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    You have got to be kidding me, you missed a lot during those years away from LENR, read before you make judgments.

  • Ged

    “The Impossible Invention” coming soon, Summer 2018.

  • Zavod

    Here is another explanation: The Ecat does not work. IH was monitoring the test and knew that some sort of slight of hand was involved as the ERV was not independent. As a result IH issued the letter suggesting that the Ecat will disappoint.

    • Curbina

      If this was the case the test would have never be let to go on past the doscovery of the “cheat”.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yes, that would be unethical. It is not the case IMO.

    • Christina

      The E-cat passed too many tests by too many experts who wouldn’t compromise their jobs/careers by lying for IH and Rossi; so the E-Cat must be real.

    • Ged

      All while also saying they are pleased.

      Well, if that is true, IH will get to sue Rossi, in criminal court even, for everything up to the shirt off his back. Rossi will have doomed himself.

      All IH has to do is come out and say so.

      Also, Penon was agreed on by IH since many years ago with the 24h test, he wasn’t a Rossi guy, and so too did they sign off on all test protocols. So there should be no surprises for them. If there was fraud, they should have known long before the test finished.

    • bachcole

      That does not square with the 2013 Levi report and the 2014 Lugano report.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Amen.

  • Zavod

    Here is another explanation: The Ecat does not work. IH was monitoring the test and knew that some sort of slight of hand was involved as the ERV was not independent. As a result IH issued the letter suggesting that the Ecat will disappoint.

    • Curbina

      If this was the case the test would have never be let to go on past the doscovery of the “cheat”.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yes, that would be unethical. It is not the case IMO.

    • Christina

      The E-cat passed too many tests by too many experts who wouldn’t compromise their jobs/careers by lying for IH and Rossi; so the E-Cat must be real.

    • Ged

      All while also saying they are pleased.

      Well, if that is true, IH will get to sue Rossi, in criminal court even, for everything up to the shirt off his back. Rossi will have doomed himself.

      All IH has to do is come out and say so.

      Also, Penon was agreed on by IH since many years ago with the 24h test, he wasn’t a Rossi guy, and so too did they sign off on all test protocols. So there should be no surprises for them. If there was fraud, they should have known long before the test finished.

    • bachcole

      That does not square with the 2013 Levi report and the 2014 Lugano report.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Amen.

    • bachcole

      That does not square with the 2013 Levi report and the 2014 Lugano report.

  • Radius11

    $10 million to sideline this invention for 3 years
    skip out on $89 million at the last minute
    tie it all in court for a few more years
    worth every penny to the oil, gas and coal folks 🙂

    • bachcole

      Given how little we actually know for certain, that is a theory that fits that various data points.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Cmon B, you should be as escited as I am. You know LENR will change the world in the end.

        • bachcole

          I am positive up to the 2014 Lugano report. This 2016 year-long test I am 95% certain. Everything else is a blur awaiting for confirmations and clarity. Yes, I am excited, but this latest mess really does not make my day. Although I do get more practice at practical epistemology. (:->) That’s exciting.

    • bachcole

      Given how little we actually know for certain, that is a theory that fits that various data points.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yea, well they didn’t account on the wild card. Mills’ suncell, makes ecat look like a kitty cat.

      • Mm. Even if the bright light contains more energy than the input current (unproven), I wonder what is the efficiency of heating a tungsten membrane by radiation and then trying to collect energy in a narrow spectrum from one side of that using heavy duty water cooled photovoltaics?

        Compared with, say, a sort of simple nickel dust sandwich which produces electrical power (or light if needs be) directly from the electrode plates.

        • bachcole

          I know that I am breaking all of my rules about practical epistemology and fringe exploration, but I simply do no believe Mills.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    We have got a classic US unregulated capitalism clash: Who will gain money and power from this hugely important invention: Inventor/creator vs Those providing money

    • Ged

      Business history is littered with these events.

      • SG

        Sure enough. Honestly, I would have been surprised if LENR was rolled out onto the world stage without these kinds of giant battles.

    • f sedei

      Simply stated, but so true. E-Cat is so “huge” and the profit so potentially great it would be impossible to implement without such a clash. It happens often even in less possible lucrative instances. This all tells me that the E-Cat is REAL without a doubt.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    We have got a classic US unregulated capitalism clash: Who will gain money and power from this hugely important invention: Inventor/creator vs Those providing money

    • Ged

      Business history is littered with these events.

      • SG

        Sure enough. Honestly, I would have been surprised if LENR was rolled out onto the world stage without these kinds of giant battles.

    • f sedei

      Simply stated, but so true. E-Cat is so “huge” and the profit so potentially great it would be impossible to implement without such a clash. It happens often even in less possible lucrative instances. This all tells me that the E-Cat is REAL without a doubt.

  • Industrial Heat had a full year to determine whether the E-cat works or not at this point it only rock heads wouldn’t know what is going on after investing 11 million dollars. With the amount of money at stake IH they can make any story at this point look plausible. It all comes down to the principles and values of those involved as to how things will shake out. If the E-cat didn’t work or under performed they would have indicated that long before the end of the test.

    • Ged

      That is very true. Considering all the domains and new shell companies IH has been setting up since nearing the end of the test, it definitely sounds like they are running with Rossi’s tech and just want dull control. If so, they may put up a small defense, but plan to lose as paying out the 89 mill and fees would be small compared to having their own version completely in their hands with no say of Rossi’s involved. They may just settle out of court.

      But anything is possible, and we’ll see when they speek.

      I do want to point out that IH was planning this for awhile, as one wouldn’t need APCO just for making a counter lawsuit press release.

  • Industrial Heat had a full year to determine whether the E-cat works or not at this point it only rock heads wouldn’t know what is going on after investing 11 million dollars. With the amount of money and power at stake, IH can make any story at this point look plausible. It all comes down to the principles and values of those involved as to how things will shake out. If the E-cat didn’t work or under performed they would have indicated that long before the end of the test.

    • Ged

      That is very true. Considering all the domains and new shell companies IH has been setting up since nearing the end of the test, it definitely sounds like they are running with Rossi’s tech and just want full control. If so, they may put up a small defense, but plan to lose as paying out the 89 mill and fees would be small compared to having their own version completely in their hands with no say of Rossi’s involved. They may just settle out of court.

      But anything is possible, and we’ll see when they speek.

      I do want to point out that IH was planning this for awhile, as one wouldn’t need APCO just for making a counter lawsuit press release.

    • Ged

      That is very true. Considering all the domains and new shell companies IH has been setting up since nearing the end of the test, it definitely sounds like they are running with Rossi’s tech and just want full control. If so, they may put up a small defense, but plan to lose as paying out the 89 mill and fees would be small compared to having their own version completely in their hands with no say of Rossi’s involved. They may just settle out of court.

      But anything is possible, and we’ll see when they speek.

      I do want to point out that IH was planning this for awhile, as one wouldn’t need APCO just for making a counter lawsuit press release.

  • Winebuff67

    The patents are the $$$ here once they had access and their name on them they didn’t need to pay Rossi they gave him rope and he hung himself. Rossi’s only avenue is a suit which he will lose imho.

    • GordonDocherty

      As this is going to court before a jury, the court can reasonably ask for (an extended) demonstration of the 1MW system – “re-enactment at the scene of the crime” as it were. Likewise, the Patent Office can now ask to examine the 1MW system to see it working – at least for a week or two – after all, if the invention does not work, the IP and Patents are worthless and the Patents all fall. If it was really the case that the invention did not work, then undertaking an expensive court case would only add fail on top of fail.

      With this in mind then, any claim that this court case somehow “proves the e-Cat does not work” clearly makes no sense whatsoever, unless the intention of all parties involved is to lose as much money and face as possible…

      As to ownership of the IP, as the inventor, I can clearly understand why Andrea Rossi is rightfully indignant that anyone else should claim ownership, something that he would not be if the IP were for an invention that did not work.

      Finally, the Bayh-Dole Act means that the U.S. Federal Government may
      sometimes take private property for public use, providing just
      compensation is paid. Private property covered by this protection includes the intellectual
      property of private citizens/individuals and corporations. So, given the strategic nature of this invention, the US government could just step in and pay, say $100M to each party and still have change out of the cost of building a conventional power station: further, the strategic advantage in this case is for open access to the technology, as it would clearly and unequivocally reduce the pressure on resources and hence regional and global destabilization. It would also furnish the US government with an unassailable moral lead, especially useful in these troubled times – and in managing markets around the world. Just a thought.

      As to Andrea Rossi, no matter where the ownership of the IP eventually settles, there should also now be serious consideration given to recompensing him for the damage repeatedly done to his reputation throughout his working life as well as a rehabilitation of his reputation to become the first in a new hall-of-fame honoured for his insights and services rendered to the combined disciplines that together make up LENR within the field of Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (CMNS): perhaps, eventually, the Rossi Generator will become as ubiquitous as the Van-Der-Graph generator in learning establishments around the world. Well, that’s my take.

      • Winebuff67

        Rossi being so erratic and eccentric is the real problem. He should be suing his lawyer or himself for not constantly talking to his lawyer about what he should and shouldn’t do as far as I see it the hook on this was becoming the tech officer for IH during that time he comes up with ecat-x which means they own the patent. That one thing could be a big deal. His blog will set a timeline for this.

        • Ged

          That is actually an interesting thought. It’s true, if one is working for a company, and while on company time/soil develop a tech, then the company is generally the true owner of the resulting patent/IP, not the employee who developed it. IH could conceivably claim that Rossi/Leonardo Corp does not actually own the E-cat X, either at all or not exclusively. That would really throw a wrench in Rossi’s future and would be a rational inspiration for the suit. It would also work with the suit’s language about IH taking Leonardo Corp IP.

          We’ll see.

          • SG

            It depends on what the “Chief Scientist” agreement stated, which was referenced in the license agreement, but which we do not presently have access to. I highly doubt that it includes an assignment of IP rights clause. Mr. Rossi likely would never have agreed to it.

          • Buck

            I agree . . . it is very hard to imagine that after protecting the IP in the license agreement, he would open the door to losing the IP during the time he was both managing the 1year test and IH’s Chief Scientist.

          • Guy Thomas

            You really think so after the Lugano report, multiple independent replications and 1 year of independently verified operation at an actual customers site? What will it take to convince some people!

          • MasterBlaster7

            “What will it take to convince some people!” is your question.

            “You can’t fix stupid” is my answer.

          • Sandy

            James Patterson received a U.S. patent on his cold fusion device. It was a working device! Did that device ever make it to the market? No! The powers that be quashed it. And they will find some way to stop the E-Cat too.

          • Wise and intelligent minds, as you say look, at evidence, they don’t just believe what they read online. What’s your evidence of fraud in this specific instance? Do you have a single piece of data indicating fraud in the current E-Cat test? Because the last time I checked, personal ridicule and ad hominem attacks are not part of the scientific method.

          • NT

            PwaBeui Wong,
            You then must admit they were conned by their own hired engineers? Your thinking is not factual or logical as per the situation and what has been reported so far…

          • LuFong

            Usually employees sign agreements to that effect (company owns IP) even for IP after employment is terminated. That was the case for me.

        • Ethel Mermaid

          VCs don’t usually invest in inventors who sue VCs.

      • GordonDocherty

        One more point, as mentioned oft elsewhere, this is potentially going to make for one heck of a biographical movie, umpteen spin-off / cop-e-cat (pun itended) movies, a mini-series, novels, you name it, there will likely be a product for it.

      • bachcole

        “unless the intention of all parties involved is to lose as much money and face as possible” Nice. Funny.

        “As to ownership of the IP, as the inventor, I can clearly understand why Andrea Rossi is rightfully indignant that anyone else should claim ownership, something that he would not be doing if he knew the invention did not work.”
        Not necessarily. If he is losing his marbles as I have suggested elsewhere, like with little, teeny, tiny E-cats and E-cats that put out electricity and so forth, he may be unable to know whether it works or not.

        On the other hand, it may actually work (which I believe) but I.H. wants to rescue the whole operation because Rossi is losing his marbles.

        What the ph’ck do I know? I’m just trying to connect the data points.

  • Winebuff67

    The patents are the $$$ here once they had access and their name on them they didn’t need to pay Rossi they gave him rope and he hung himself. Rossi’s only avenue is a suit which he will lose imho.

  • Winebuff67

    The patents are the $$$ here once they had access and their name on them they didn’t need to pay Rossi they gave him rope and he hung himself. Rossi’s only avenue is a suit which he will lose imho.

  • GordonDocherty

    As this is going to court before a jury, the court can reasonably ask for (an extended) demonstration of the 1MW system – “re-enactment at the scene of the crime” as it were. Likewise, the Patent Office can now ask to examine the 1MW system to see it working – at least for a week or two – after all, if the invention does not work, the IP and Patents are worthless and the Patents all fall. If it was really the case that the invention did not work, then undertaking an expensive court case would only add fail on top of fail.

    With this in mind then, any claim that this court case somehow “proves the e-Cat does not work” clearly makes no sense whatsoever, unless the intention of all parties involved is to lose as much money and face as possible, that is…

    As to ownership of the IP, as the inventor, I can clearly understand why Andrea Rossi is rightfully indignant that anyone else should claim ownership, something that he would not be doing if he knew the invention did not work.

    Finally, the Bayh-Dole Act means that the U.S. Federal Government may sometimes take private property for public use, providing just compensation is paid. Private property covered by this protection includes the intellectual property of private citizens/individuals and corporations: given the strategic nature of this invention, the US government could well just step in and pay, say $100M to each party and still have change out of the cost of building a conventional power station. Further, the strategic advantage in this case is for open access to the technology, as it would clearly and unequivocally reduce the pressure on resources and hence regional and global destabilization. It would also furnish the US government with an unassailable moral lead, especially useful in these troubled times – and in managing markets around the world. Just a thought.

    As to Andrea Rossi, no matter where the ownership of the IP eventually settles, there should also now be serious consideration given to recompensing him for the damage repeatedly done to his reputation throughout his working life as well as a rehabilitation/repatriation of his reputation to become the first in a new hall-of-fame honoured for his insights and services rendered to the combined disciplines that together make up LENR within the field of Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (CMNS): perhaps, eventually, the Rossi Generator will become as ubiquitous as the Van-Der-Graaph generator in learning establishments around the world. Well, that’s my take.

    • GordonDocherty

      One more point, as mentioned oft elsewhere, this is potentially going to make for one heck of a biographical movie, umpteen spin-off / cop-e-cat (pun intended) movies, a mini-series, novels … you name it, there will likely be a product for it.

    • GordonDocherty

      One more point, as mentioned oft elsewhere, this is potentially going to make for one heck of a biographical movie, umpteen spin-off / cop-e-cat (pun intended) movies, a mini-series, novels … you name it, there will likely be a product for it.

    • bachcole

      “unless the intention of all parties involved is to lose as much money and face as possible” Nice. Funny.

      “As to ownership of the IP, as the inventor, I can clearly understand why Andrea Rossi is rightfully indignant that anyone else should claim ownership, something that he would not be doing if he knew the invention did not work.”
      Not necessarily. If he is losing his marbles as I have suggested elsewhere, like with little, teeny, tiny E-cats and E-cats that put out electricity and so forth, he may be unable to know whether it works or not.

      On the other hand, it may actually work (which I believe) but I.H. wants to rescue the whole operation because Rossi is losing his marbles.

      What the ph’ck do I know? I’m just trying to connect the data points.

    • bachcole

      “unless the intention of all parties involved is to lose as much money and face as possible” Nice. Funny.

      “As to ownership of the IP, as the inventor, I can clearly understand why Andrea Rossi is rightfully indignant that anyone else should claim ownership, something that he would not be doing if he knew the invention did not work.”
      Not necessarily. If he is losing his marbles as I have suggested elsewhere, like with little, teeny, tiny E-cats and E-cats that put out electricity and so forth, he may be unable to know whether it works or not.

      On the other hand, it may actually work (which I believe) but I.H. wants to rescue the whole operation because Rossi is losing his marbles.

      What the ph’ck do I know? I’m just trying to connect the data points.

  • GordonDocherty

    As this is going to court before a jury, the court can reasonably ask for (an extended) demonstration of the 1MW system – “re-enactment at the scene of the crime” as it were. Likewise, the Patent Office can now ask to examine the 1MW system to see it working – at least for a week or two – after all, if the invention does not work, the IP and Patents are worthless and the Patents all fall. If it was really the case that the invention did not work, then undertaking an expensive court case would only add fail on top of fail.

    With this in mind then, any claim that this court case somehow “proves the e-Cat does not work” clearly makes no sense whatsoever, unless the intention of all parties involved is to lose as much money and face as possible, that is…

    As to ownership of the IP, as the inventor, I can clearly understand why Andrea Rossi is rightfully indignant that anyone else should claim ownership, something that he would not be doing if he knew the invention did not work.

    Finally, the Bayh-Dole Act means that the U.S. Federal Government may sometimes take private property for public use, providing just compensation is paid. Private property covered by this protection includes the intellectual property of private citizens/individuals and corporations: given the strategic nature of this invention, the US government could well just step in and pay, say $100M to each party and still have change out of the cost of building a conventional power station. Further, the strategic advantage in this case is for open access to the technology, as it would clearly and unequivocally reduce the pressure on resources and hence regional and global destabilization. It would also furnish the US government with an unassailable moral lead, especially useful in these troubled times – and in managing markets around the world. Just a thought.

    As to Andrea Rossi, no matter where the ownership of the IP eventually settles, there should also now be serious consideration given to recompensing him for the damage repeatedly done to his reputation throughout his working life as well as a rehabilitation/repatriation of his reputation to become the first in a new hall-of-fame honoured for his insights and services rendered to the combined disciplines that together make up LENR within the field of Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (CMNS): perhaps, eventually, the Rossi Generator will become as ubiquitous as the Van-Der-Graaph generator in learning establishments around the world. Well, that’s my take.

  • Winebuff67

    Rossi being so erratic and eccentric is the real problem. He should be suing his lawyer or himself for not constantly talking to his lawyer about what he should and shouldn’t do as far as I see it the hook on this was becoming the tech officer for IH during that time he comes up with ecat-x which means they own the patent. That one thing could be a big deal. His blog will set a timeline for this.

    • Ged

      That is actually an interesting thought. It’s true, if one is working for a company, and while on company time/soil develop a tech, then the company is generally the true owner of the resulting patent/IP, not the employee who developed it. IH could conceivably claim that Rossi/Leonardo Corp does not actually own the E-cat X, either at all or not exclusively. That would really throw a wrench in Rossi’s future and would be a rational inspiration for the suit. It would also work with the suit’s language about IH taking Leonardo Corp IP.

      We’ll see.

    • Ged

      That is actually an interesting thought. It’s true, if one is working for a company, and while on company time/soil develop a tech, then the company is generally the true owner of the resulting patent/IP, not the employee who developed it. IH could conceivably claim that Rossi/Leonardo Corp does not actually own the E-cat X, either at all or not exclusively. That would really throw a wrench in Rossi’s future and would be a rational inspiration for the suit. It would also work with the suit’s language about IH taking Leonardo Corp IP.

      We’ll see.

      • SG

        It depends on what the “Chief Scientist” agreement stated, which was referenced in the license agreement, but which we do not presently have access to. I highly doubt that it includes an assignment of IP rights clause. Mr. Rossi likely would never have agreed to it.

        • Buck

          I agree . . . it is very hard to imagine that after protecting the IP in the license agreement, he would open the door to losing the IP during the time he was both managing the 1year test and IH’s Chief Scientist.

        • Buck

          I agree . . . it is very hard to imagine that after protecting the IP in the license agreement, he would open the door to losing the IP during the time he was both managing the 1year test and IH’s Chief Scientist.

        • BillH

          I think people are confusing E-CAT IP with an exclusive right to produce. It’s very clear the IP is AR’s but it is equally clear IH has exclusive rights to produce in any of its designated areas. So, IH could effectively block production by anyone else in the US.
          Attempts to do so by AR would be very unwise.

        • BillH

          I think people are confusing E-CAT IP with an exclusive right to produce. It’s very clear the IP is AR’s but it is equally clear IH has exclusive rights to produce in any of its designated areas. So, IH could effectively block production by anyone else in the US.
          Attempts to do so by AR would be very unwise.

      • SG

        It depends on what the “Chief Scientist” agreement stated, which was referenced in the license agreement, but which we do not presently have access to. I highly doubt that it includes an assignment of IP rights clause. Mr. Rossi likely would never have agreed to it.

  • Winebuff67

    Rossi being so erratic and eccentric is the real problem. He should be suing his lawyer or himself for not constantly talking to his lawyer about what he should and shouldn’t do as far as I see it the hook on this was becoming the tech officer for IH during that time he comes up with ecat-x which means they own the patent. That one thing could be a big deal. His blog will set a timeline for this.

  • CuriousGeorge

    Can someone knowledgeable about venture capital comment on these events? If the ecat is as revolutionary as claimed, how does nonpayment of the $89 million make strategic sense for Cherokee / IH? Could they plausibly steal the IP and cut Rossi out as some have speculated? Wouldn’t that irreparably damage Cherokee’s reputation in the market? Is it plausible that a fund of Cherokee’s size and stature couldn’t raise the funds and has been stalling for time? Still others speculate that outside interests (e.g., big oil) are working with Cherokee to slow LENR rollout. Does venture capital work that way? Is it plausible? On the other hand, is it plausible that they just now realized that the technology is not real and they have been duped? If they realized sooner, wouldn’t they have said so? Surely there are some people here who are knowledgeable about VC.

  • CuriousGeorge

    Can someone knowledgeable about venture capital comment on these events? If the ecat is as revolutionary as claimed, how does nonpayment of the $89 million make strategic sense for Cherokee / IH? Could they plausibly steal the IP and cut Rossi out as some have speculated? Wouldn’t that irreparably damage Cherokee’s reputation in the market? Is it plausible that a fund of Cherokee’s size and stature couldn’t raise the funds and has been stalling for time? Still others speculate that outside interests (e.g., big oil) are working with Cherokee to slow LENR rollout. Does venture capital work that way? Is it plausible? On the other hand, is it plausible that they just now realized that the technology is not real and they have been duped? If they realized sooner, wouldn’t they have said so? Surely there are some people here who are knowledgeable about VC.

  • Hans Mjøllner

    Andrea Rossi
    March 29,2016 at 3:50pm

    Elias Duntarn:

    Thank you:the work now is going to be harder,but ,as i said,
    the horse is harnessed,now has to pull.
    Warm regards,
    A.R

    Horse = IH ? :))

  • Hans Mjøllner

    Andrea Rossi
    March 29,2016 at 3:50pm

    Elias Duntarn:

    Thank you:the work now is going to be harder,but ,as i said,
    the horse is harnessed,now has to pull.
    Warm regards,
    A.R

    Horse = IH ? :))

  • Albert D. Kallal

    A few things:

    We have to be VERY thankful that Rossibeen SO VERY open to the public. And Rossi by being so public gives him a HUGE upper hand when dealing with companies.

    As we all know, 99% of the time, people with such technology wind up at the bottom of a river, or such inventions are bought out before they see the light of day.

    While Rossi was “careful” not to spill ALL the beans on how great the ecat is, we must admit that Rossi been quite forthcoming in that he said the plant is a work of art, and it performs well.
    And likely out of respect for his agreement with IH, Rossi did not speak public
    as to what the COP is.

    It was quite clear that IH had NO intention of making a public announcement on LENR.

    It is thus brilliant that Rossi went public with the lawsuit. For one, it means IH now has to respond, but by responding in public they do the VERY THING that IH has avoided and WANTS to avoid!

    While Rossi speaks constantly in public about LENR, IH could have done a professional press release by now, or even months ago as to THE MOST AMAZING TECHNOLOGY they been sitting on! Their silence, and lack of communication on the most amazing technology man has witnessed is
    TERRIBLE and speaks volumes about IH intentions. IH intentions are to slow down, hide, or thwart LENR, or at best GAIN control of this technology for the world’s elites.

    In other words this was and is a move by the status quo to control LENR and take it away from Rossi.
    (the stink part was when APCO or whatever that PR firm used by Hillary Clinton, and Bill Gates is ALSO used by IH).

    At the end of the day, IH has to pay out the remaining 89 million they owe Rossi.

    As for other breach of contract such a creating companies OUTSIDE of control of IH? These may well be proven in court, but does not amount to a hill of beans UNLESS you can show damages.

    Since no machines have been sold, then this line of legal pursuit will not gain Rossi “money” and any damages have not yet occurred! It is LITTLE use to make a legal claim without any damages that
    have occurred!

    However, the lawsuit can and would prevent these satellite companies that Darden created outside of IH from using and distributing the ecat technology. (this BTW is Ross’s main issue and contention).

    Rossi agreed that companies controlled by IH could use the IP and technology. The BIG problem is Darden created companies OUTSIDE of IH for his friends and foe. In other words, these companies are NOT owned by IH – Rossi is NOT agreeing that these other companies can use the IP rights of Rossi.

    Like a tennis game, Rossi fired the ball over the court – the MOST interesting aspect is now what will IH do and state in public?

    It’s also interesting here that we don’t have details if IH is refusing to pay the 89 million or Rossi fired BEFORE they paid.

    This is an important issue! Since without fulfillment of the contract, then the rights that IH has to sell ecats in the USA may well be null and void – perhaps exactly what Rossi wants.

    If IH pays the 89 million, then IH can stop sales of ecats in the USA until such time other legal issues are resolved. The other breaches of contract such as IP rights likely could be resolved by litigation as opposed to court.

    So in a funny way, IH by paying Rossi can hold up sales of the ecat.

    Without payment, then it going to be VERY hard for IH to claim rights to the ecat in the USA and prevent sales of the product without major parts of the contract having been fulfilled by IH.

    So the issue of IH not paying, or Rossi firing before they paid is a critical issue here.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “Rossi agreed that companies controlled by IH could use the IP and technology.”

      He agreed that IH could sublicense at its own discretion without limitation respective of ownership (per Section 1).

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Yes, but Rossi claiming he ONLY agreed to that if such companies are owned by IH. So in that context respective owner ship is IH or any old company that IH owns – so the rights could be transferred to another company – but only ones under control of IH.

        • Brent Buckner

          I see no such restriction in Section 1 of the License Agreement. We’ll see what IH and the courts say!

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, like I said, Rossi assumed that was the context.

            If it was not the context, then Rossi would have no rights, and IH could simply transfer everything over to some other company for $1 and IH and everyone including Rossi would get nothing and have no means to get revenue from that company. Who on earth would agree to that? As Rossi stated, the assurance from Darden is that these other companies were owned by IH and thus Rossi had no problem. If IH can transfer everything out, then all the investors of IH are 100% screwed and IH has nothing, and Darden walks away with everything. In other words, IH has the rights to give everything away to say his wife and IH and everyone else has nothing?

            BTW the huge Panama document leak outlines EXACTLY the above process in regards to money laundering.
            So the legal clause that stats IH must do EVERYTHING to protect the value of Ross’s IP rights would be the issue – unfortunately, courts do NOT assume or make assumptions. that clause could hurt Rossi.
            Albert
            Albert

          • Brent Buckner

            IH has a duty to its shareholders respective of not transferring out valuable rights for $1.

            Rossi agreed to a lot of things for $11.5million to date, not for nothing.

        • Michael W Wolf

          no way. An IH rep has praised the ecat performance. It is over IP.

      • US_Citizen71

        Only for production as sub-contractors and with review and approval by LC and Rossi. Go back and read it again.

        • Brent Buckner

          Where should I look for a restriction respective of control or ownership? I’m stuck on Section 1, where it says “Leonardo and Rossi further grant to the Company the right to grant sublicenses of any of its rights under this Agreement. The granting of sublicenses shall be at the Company’s sole and exclusive discretion and the Company shall have the sole and exclusive power to determine the identity of any sublicensee….”

          • US_Citizen71

            You are correct, I guess I read to many documents yesterday and merged them in my mind.

            “Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, Leonardo and Rossi hereby grant to the Company the exclusive right and license under the Patents and other Ecat IP to develop, manufacture, make, have made, use, have used, offer to sell, have offered for sale, sell, have sold, import, and have imported all the products deriving from the E-Cat IP in the Territory (the “License”). The License specifically does not include any military applications in ltaly. Leonardo and Rossi further grant to the Company the right to grant sublicenses of any of its rights under this , Agreement. Leonardo and Rossi further grant to the Company the right to grant sublicenses of any of its rights under this Agreement. The granting of sublicenses shall be at the Company’s sole and exclusive discretion and the Company shall have the sole and exclusive power to determine the identity of any….”

    • JDM

      How do you know that minions of IH have not made and and sold machines, like maybe in China, that we have never heard of? That would constitute damages. There are allegations of shell Co’s set up to transfer and use the IP.

    • HS61AF91

      You are exactly 100% right on. Great words! Great summary!

    • Teemu Soilamo

      If only Rossi had met with Elon Musk that one time…

  • Albert D. Kallal

    A few things:

    We have to be VERY thankful that Rossibeen SO VERY open to the public. And Rossi by being so public gives him a HUGE upper hand when dealing with companies.

    As we all know, 99% of the time, people with such technology wind up at the bottom of a river, or such inventions are bought out before they see the light of day.

    While Rossi was “careful” not to spill ALL the beans on how great the ecat is, we must admit that Rossi been quite forthcoming in that he said the plant is a work of art, and it performs well.
    And likely out of respect for his agreement with IH, Rossi did not speak public
    as to what the COP is.

    It was quite clear that IH had NO intention of making a public announcement on LENR.

    It is thus brilliant that Rossi went public with the lawsuit. For one, it means IH now has to respond, but by responding in public they do the VERY THING that IH has avoided and WANTS to avoid!

    While Rossi speaks constantly in public about LENR, IH could have done a professional press release by now, or even months ago as to THE MOST AMAZING TECHNOLOGY they been sitting on! Their silence, and lack of communication on the most amazing technology man has witnessed is
    TERRIBLE and speaks volumes about IH intentions. IH intentions are to slow down, hide, or thwart LENR, or at best GAIN control of this technology for the world’s elites.

    In other words this was and is a move by the status quo to control LENR and take it away from Rossi.
    (the stink part was when APCO or whatever that PR firm used by Hillary Clinton, and Bill Gates is ALSO used by IH).

    At the end of the day, IH has to pay out the remaining 89 million they owe Rossi.

    As for other breach of contract such a creating companies OUTSIDE of control of IH? These may well be proven in court, but does not amount to a hill of beans UNLESS you can show damages.

    Since no machines have been sold, then this line of legal pursuit will not gain Rossi “money” and any damages have not yet occurred! It is LITTLE use to make a legal claim without any damages that
    have occurred!

    However, the lawsuit can and would prevent these satellite companies that Darden created outside of IH from using and distributing the ecat technology. (this BTW is Ross’s main issue and contention).

    Rossi agreed that companies controlled by IH could use the IP and technology. The BIG problem is Darden created companies OUTSIDE of IH for his friends and foe. In other words, these companies are NOT owned by IH – Rossi is NOT agreeing that these other companies can use the IP rights of Rossi.

    Like a tennis game, Rossi fired the ball over the court – the MOST interesting aspect is now what will IH do and state in public?

    It’s also interesting here that we don’t have details if IH is refusing to pay the 89 million or Rossi fired BEFORE they paid.

    This is an important issue! Since without fulfillment of the contract, then the rights that IH has to sell ecats in the USA may well be null and void – perhaps exactly what Rossi wants.

    If IH pays the 89 million, then IH can stop sales of ecats in the USA until such time other legal issues are resolved. The other breaches of contract such as IP rights likely could be resolved by litigation as opposed to court.

    So in a funny way, IH by paying Rossi can hold up sales of the ecat.

    Without payment, then it going to be VERY hard for IH to claim rights to the ecat in the USA and prevent sales of the product without major parts of the contract having been fulfilled by IH.

    So the issue of IH not paying, or Rossi firing before they paid is a critical issue here.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “Rossi agreed that companies controlled by IH could use the IP and technology.”

      He agreed that IH could sublicense at its own discretion without limitation respective of ownership (per Section 1).

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Yes, but Rossi claiming he ONLY agreed to that if such companies are owned by IH. So in that context respective owner ship is IH or any old company that IH owns – so the rights could be transferred to another company – but only ones under control of IH.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Yes, but Rossi claiming he ONLY agreed to that if such companies are owned by IH. So in that context respective owner ship is IH or any old company that IH owns – so the rights could be transferred to another company – but only ones under control of IH.

        • Brent Buckner

          I see no such restriction in Section 1 of the License Agreement. We’ll see what IH and the courts say!

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, like I said, Rossi assumed that was the context.

            If it was not the context, then Rossi would have no rights, and IH could simply transfer everything over to some other company for $1 and IH and everyone including Rossi would get nothing and have no means to get revenue from that company. Who on earth would agree to that? As Rossi stated, the assurance from Darden is that these other companies were owned by IH and thus Rossi had no problem. If IH can transfer everything out, then all the investors of IH are 100% screwed and IH has nothing, and Darden walks away with everything. In other words, IH has the rights to give everything away to say his wife and IH and everyone else has nothing?

            BTW the huge Panama document leak outlines EXACTLY the above process in regards to money laundering.
            So the legal clause that stats IH must do EVERYTHING to protect the value of Ross’s IP rights would be the issue – unfortunately, courts do NOT assume or make assumptions. that clause could hurt Rossi.
            Albert
            Albert

          • Brent Buckner

            IH has a duty to its shareholders respective of not transferring out valuable rights for $1.

            Rossi agreed to a lot of things for $11.5million to date, not for nothing.

          • Brent Buckner

            IH has a duty to its shareholders respective of not transferring out valuable rights for $1.

            Rossi agreed to a lot of things for $11.5million to date, not for nothing.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, like I said, Rossi assumed that was the context.

            If it was not the context, then Rossi would have no rights, and IH could simply transfer everything over to some other company for $1 and IH and everyone including Rossi would get nothing and have no means to get revenue from that company. Who on earth would agree to that? As Rossi stated, the assurance from Darden is that these other companies were owned by IH and thus Rossi had no problem. If IH can transfer everything out, then all the investors of IH are 100% screwed and IH has nothing, and Darden walks away with everything. In other words, IH has the rights to give everything away to say his wife and IH and everyone else has nothing?

            BTW the huge Panama document leak outlines EXACTLY the above process in regards to money laundering.
            So the legal clause that stats IH must do EVERYTHING to protect the value of Ross’s IP rights would be the issue – unfortunately, courts do NOT assume or make assumptions. that clause could hurt Rossi.
            Albert
            Albert

        • Brent Buckner

          I see no such restriction in Section 1 of the License Agreement. We’ll see what IH and the courts say!

      • US_Citizen71

        Only for production as sub-contractors and with review and approval by LC and Rossi. Go back and read it again.

        • Brent Buckner

          Where should I look for a restriction respective of control or ownership? I’m stuck on Section 1, where it says “Leonardo and Rossi further grant to the Company the right to grant sublicenses of any of its rights under this Agreement. The granting of sublicenses shall be at the Company’s sole and exclusive discretion and the Company shall have the sole and exclusive power to determine the identity of any sublicensee….”

          • US_Citizen71

            You are correct, I guess I read to many documents yesterday and merged them in my mind.

            “Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, Leonardo and Rossi hereby grant to the Company the exclusive right and license under the Patents and other Ecat IP to develop, manufacture, make, have made, use, have used, offer to sell, have offered for sale, sell, have sold, import, and have imported all the products deriving from the E-Cat IP in the Territory (the “License”). The License specifically does not include any military applications in ltaly. Leonardo and Rossi further grant to the Company the right to grant sublicenses of any of its rights under this , Agreement. Leonardo and Rossi further grant to the Company the right to grant sublicenses of any of its rights under this Agreement. The granting of sublicenses shall be at the Company’s sole and exclusive discretion and the Company shall have the sole and exclusive power to determine the identity of any….”

        • Brent Buckner

          Where should I look for a restriction respective of control or ownership? I’m stuck on Section 1, where it says “Leonardo and Rossi further grant to the Company the right to grant sublicenses of any of its rights under this Agreement. The granting of sublicenses shall be at the Company’s sole and exclusive discretion and the Company shall have the sole and exclusive power to determine the identity of any sublicensee….”

      • US_Citizen71

        Only for production as sub-contractors and with review and approval by LC and Rossi. Go back and read it again.

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “Rossi agreed that companies controlled by IH could use the IP and technology.”

      He agreed that IH could sublicense at its own discretion without limitation respective of ownership (per Section 1).

    • JDM

      How do you know that minions of IH have not made and and sold machines, like maybe in China, that we have never heard of? That would constitute damages. There are allegations of shell Co’s set up to transfer and use the IP.

    • HS61AF91

      You are exactly 100% right on. Great words! Great summary!

    • Teemu Soilamo

      If only Rossi had met with Elon Musk that one time…

  • Albert D. Kallal

    A few things:

    We have to be VERY thankful that Rossibeen SO VERY open to the public. And Rossi by being so public gives him a HUGE upper hand when dealing with companies.

    As we all know, 99% of the time, people with such technology wind up at the bottom of a river, or such inventions are bought out before they see the light of day.

    While Rossi was “careful” not to spill ALL the beans on how great the ecat is, we must admit that Rossi been quite forthcoming in that he said the plant is a work of art, and it performs well.
    And likely out of respect for his agreement with IH, Rossi did not speak public
    as to what the COP is.

    It was quite clear that IH had NO intention of making a public announcement on LENR.

    It is thus brilliant that Rossi went public with the lawsuit. For one, it means IH now has to respond, but by responding in public they do the VERY THING that IH has avoided and WANTS to avoid!

    While Rossi speaks constantly in public about LENR, IH could have done a professional press release by now, or even months ago as to THE MOST AMAZING TECHNOLOGY they been sitting on! Their silence, and lack of communication on the most amazing technology man has witnessed is
    TERRIBLE and speaks volumes about IH intentions. IH intentions are to slow down, hide, or thwart LENR, or at best GAIN control of this technology for the world’s elites.

    In other words this was and is a move by the status quo to control LENR and take it away from Rossi.
    (the stink part was when APCO or whatever that PR firm used by Hillary Clinton, and Bill Gates is ALSO used by IH).

    At the end of the day, IH has to pay out the remaining 89 million they owe Rossi.

    As for other breach of contract such a creating companies OUTSIDE of control of IH? These may well be proven in court, but does not amount to a hill of beans UNLESS you can show damages.

    Since no machines have been sold, then this line of legal pursuit will not gain Rossi “money” and any damages have not yet occurred! It is LITTLE use to make a legal claim without any damages that
    have occurred!

    However, the lawsuit can and would prevent these satellite companies that Darden created outside of IH from using and distributing the ecat technology. (this BTW is Ross’s main issue and contention).

    Rossi agreed that companies controlled by IH could use the IP and technology. The BIG problem is Darden created companies OUTSIDE of IH for his friends and foe. In other words, these companies are NOT owned by IH – Rossi is NOT agreeing that these other companies can use the IP rights of Rossi.

    Like a tennis game, Rossi fired the ball over the court – the MOST interesting aspect is now what will IH do and state in public?

    It’s also interesting here that we don’t have details if IH is refusing to pay the 89 million or Rossi fired BEFORE they paid.

    This is an important issue! Since without fulfillment of the contract, then the rights that IH has to sell ecats in the USA may well be null and void – perhaps exactly what Rossi wants.

    If IH pays the 89 million, then IH can stop sales of ecats in the USA until such time other legal issues are resolved. The other breaches of contract such as IP rights likely could be resolved by litigation as opposed to court.

    So in a funny way, IH by paying Rossi can hold up sales of the ecat.

    Without payment, then it going to be VERY hard for IH to claim rights to the ecat in the USA and prevent sales of the product without major parts of the contract having been fulfilled by IH.

    So the issue of IH not paying, or Rossi firing before they paid is a critical issue here.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • nammfats

    Could this be a ploy to settle in court to avoid taxes?

    • HS61AF91

      People are not happy about Panama Papers, much less about a new avoidance of taxes. I prefer to believe that is not the case. I rather opt for a avoidance of having to pay for the publicity that would be required if the court case was not happening.

  • nammfats

    Could this be a ploy to settle in court to avoid taxes?

  • PwaBeui Wong

    Mary Yugo, who is an expert on calorimetry, has said that a test could be done in two weeks to show whether or not the e-cat is for real. IH probably had that test done in recent months and decided they had been taken by a conman for the 10 million, and cut their losses.

  • PwaBeui Wong

    Mary Yugo, who is an expert on calorimetry, has said that a test could be done in two weeks to show whether or not the e-cat is for real. IH probably had that test done in recent months and decided they had been taken by a conman for the 10 million, and cut their losses.

    • Michael W Wolf

      no way. An IH rep has praised the ecat performance. It is over IP.

    • Michael W Wolf

      no way. An IH rep has praised the ecat performance. It is over IP.

    • NT

      PwaBeui Wong,
      You then must admit they were conned by their own hired engineers? Your thinking is not factual or logical as per the situation and what has been reported so far…

    • NT

      PwaBeui Wong,
      You then must admit they were conned by their own hired engineers? Your thinking is not factual or logical as per the situation and what has been reported so far…

    • Slad

      Mary Yugo, who is an expert on calorimetry, according to Mary Yugo.

  • bachcole

    Given how little we actually know for certain, that is a theory that fits that various data points.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Cmon B, you should be as escited as I am. You know LENR will change the world in the end.

  • Thorsten

    There are “licensees” since 2011 and I remember that “pre orders” for Hotcats and especially the low-end 10kW e-Cat were also taken starting around that time. The production should start in 2012.

    Now 4 years later I still have not yet seen anybody owning a product and writing a public review about it. There is no product being offered anywhere.

    All I read is words from Rossi and on this website. Too many words, just no facts.

    Either there never have been any real licensees or those investing licensees have all been ripped off for years without ever being presented an existing and sellable product. Their money is gone and Rossi keeps telling stories.
    It is really hard to believe that people don’t notice that there us just one single person talking all the time… just Rossi, nobody else. Is there really a lab, a team, a group of engineers, etc or why is it always just the “big boss alone” talking? Don’t y’all find that strange? Are you all just strong believers without the natural doubts if you see no real facts for years although the first products should be in mass production since years? So many professionals offered to test the products which would help everybody to get the bad taste of this story away. If the thing does what Rossi claims – since many many years – he could get the highest worldwide honor and reputation by simply sending a few products to multiple magazines at a time. But as we still see not even one piece of E-Cat at any private or business user that we could simply call up or visit, although “the sales started 2012”, we need to face it: It is just a big big fraud!

  • Thorsten

    There are “licensees” since 2011 and I remember that “pre orders” for Hotcats and especially the low-end 10kW e-Cat were also taken starting around that time. The production should start in 2012.

    Now 4 years later I still have not yet seen anybody owning a product and writing a public review about it. There is no product being offered anywhere.

    All I read is words from Rossi and on this website. Too many words, just no facts.

    Either there never have been any real licensees or those investing licensees have all been ripped off for years without ever being presented an existing and sellable product. Their money is gone and Rossi keeps telling stories.
    It is really hard to believe that people don’t notice that there us just one single person talking all the time… just Rossi, nobody else. Is there really a lab, a team, a group of engineers, etc or why is it always just the “big boss alone” talking? Don’t y’all find that strange? Are you all just strong believers without the natural doubts if you see no real facts for years although the first products should be in mass production since years? So many professionals offered to test the products which would help everybody to get the bad taste of this story away. If the thing does what Rossi claims – since many many years – he could get the highest worldwide honor and reputation by simply sending a few products to multiple magazines at a time. But as we still see not even one piece of E-Cat at any private or business user that we could simply call up or visit, although “the sales started 2012”, we need to face it: It is just a big big fraud!

  • BillH

    When IH was set up in 2013 I think, it seems to have bought out Ampernegro AEG, their accounts show that it was initially funded with around $11.5M is it a coincidence that this appears to be the amount of money so far paid out to AR?

    My belief is that IH was set up and funded as a buffer between Leonardo and Cherokee to protect Cherokee investors. AR may be wasting his time with a court case if E-Cat proved to be unreliable since IH could be wound up with little or no loss of face to Cherokee. I don’t expect to hear much from IH in the near future, but I could be wrong.

  • BillH

    When IH was set up in 2013 I think, it seems to have bought out Ampernegro AEG, their accounts show that it was initially funded with around $11.5M is it a coincidence that this appears to be the amount of money so far paid out to AR?

    My belief is that IH was set up and funded as a buffer between Leonardo and Cherokee to protect Cherokee investors. AR may be wasting his time with a court case if E-Cat proved to be unreliable since IH could be wound up with little or no loss of face to Cherokee. I don’t expect to hear much from IH in the near future, but I could be wrong.

  • BillH

    When IH was set up in 2013 I think, it seems to have bought out Ampernegro AEG, their accounts show that it was initially funded with around $11.5M is it a coincidence that this appears to be the amount of money so far paid out to AR?

    My belief is that IH was set up and funded as a buffer between Leonardo and Cherokee to protect Cherokee investors. AR may be wasting his time with a court case if E-Cat proved to be unreliable since IH could be wound up with little or no loss of face to Cherokee. I don’t expect to hear much from IH in the near future, but I could be wrong.

  • deleo77

    The question is why is Rossi suing? If he has a device with a COP of 50, he could go to a dozen VC firms to get the money he needs to fund the company. Maybe he wouldn’t get $89MM, but it would be a good amount. The VC’s would want to install their own CEO and put Rossi in the role of Chief Scientist, and they would form a board to run Leonardo. This is done every day. If Darden ever came back claiming the rights to sell the e-cat they could simply say he was in breach of contract for non-payment and force him to sue.

    There is plenty of money out there. If I were a VC with a big fund for clean energy I would at least reach out to Rossi, fly to Miami for a demonstration and take a look. The fact that Rossi is suing Darden is a backwards move IMO. If Rossi means what he says in that he wants to see E-Cats massively produced ASAP, going into litigation is not the way to do that. He needs to move on.

    • SG

      I think he did it to put Leonardo on the offensive and also to get some of the information into the public domain. After 20 years of research and development, Mr. Rossi clearly wants to move the tech into the marketplace. No more games.

      • He wants recognition I think (as well as some rewards for his hardship, risks, hard work and general brilliance!).

        • Curbina

          I am thinking now, upon some hints that the JMC company that figures in the last page of the license agreement might actually be a de facto branch of Johnson Mathey Chemicals from UK created purposefully to test the plant in Florida, and that Rossi is playing this game to win back the control of his IP, and that the next customer in UK will precisely be Jonhson Mathey Chemicals. If this is so, Rossi is no longer interested in the US$89 millions but in gaining absolute control of his IP. I have no much to back this possibility, but Jonhson Mathey Chemicals, as MFMP stated in one of their FB comments, was the supplier of the palladium to Fleischmann and Pons, so they are in this history since literally day one.

          • Tom59

            So Rossi and that company may have been collaborating since long to fine-tune the nickel powder to react as desired and that may be the key element that sets them apart from the struggling replicators.

          • wpj

            Totally agree on this. The JM catalyst group is excellent. Maybe the reason for the high COP is that they are preparing it in a consistent manner rather than hand mixing each time.

    • HS61AF91

      the reason: Publicity.

  • deleo77

    The question is why is Rossi suing? If he has a device with a COP of 50, he could go to a dozen VC firms to get the money he needs to fund the company. Maybe he wouldn’t get $89MM, but it would be a good amount. The VC’s would want to install their own CEO and put Rossi in the role of Chief Scientist, and they would form a board to run Leonardo. This is done every day. If Darden ever came back claiming the rights to sell the e-cat they could simply say he was in breach of contract for non-payment and force him to sue.

    There is plenty of money out there. If I were a VC with a big fund for clean energy I would at least reach out to Rossi, fly to Miami for a demonstration and take a look. The fact that Rossi is suing Darden is a backwards move IMO. If Rossi means what he says in that he wants to see E-Cats massively produced ASAP, going into litigation is not the way to do that. He needs to move on.

    • SG

      I think he did it to put Leonardo on the offensive and also to get some of the information into the public domain. After 20 years of research and development, Mr. Rossi clearly wants to move the tech into the marketplace. No more games.

      • He wants recognition I think (as well as some rewards for his hardship, risks, hard work and general brilliance!).

    • SG

      I think he did it to put Leonardo on the offensive and also to get some of the information into the public domain. After 20 years of research and development, Mr. Rossi clearly wants to move the tech into the marketplace. No more games.

    • Mark S.

      The COP is 50 only sporadically and is consistent at over 6. So we do not know what the average COP really is.

    • Mark S.

      The COP is 50 only sporadically and is consistent at over 6. So we do not know what the average COP really is.

      • Curbina

        I do not get the same from the statements in the law suit, I get that the COP was consistently higher than 50.

    • bachcole

      Rossi looking for another VC may very well be happening even as we type. And vice versa.

    • bachcole

      Rossi looking for another VC may very well be happening even as we type. And vice versa.

    • HHiram

      He has to fight to retain control of the intellectual property.

      • deleo77

        Rossi and Leonardo are on the U.S. Patent, not Darden and IH. He does not need to sue them for the IP. He has the rights to it now.

        • Curbina

          What Rossi claims is that IH filed patents on their own using whatever information they gathered during the work along Rossi. What Rossi wants is those patents to be back in his control.

    • HHiram

      He has to fight to retain control of the intellectual property.

    • HS61AF91

      the reason: Publicity.

  • deleo77

    The question is why is Rossi suing? If he has a device with a COP of 50, he could go to a dozen VC firms to get the money he needs to fund the company. Maybe he wouldn’t get $89MM, but it would be a good amount. The VC’s would want to install their own CEO and put Rossi in the role of Chief Scientist, and they would form a board to run Leonardo. This is done every day. If Darden ever came back claiming the rights to sell the e-cat they could simply say he was in breach of contract for non-payment and force him to sue.

    There is plenty of money out there. If I were a VC with a big fund for clean energy I would at least reach out to Rossi, fly to Miami for a demonstration and take a look. The fact that Rossi is suing Darden is a backwards move IMO. If Rossi means what he says in that he wants to see E-Cats massively produced ASAP, going into litigation is not the way to do that. He needs to move on.

  • HHiram

    So it appears that the customer is the large British company Johnson Matthey Chemical Products (http://chemicals.matthey.com/) which created J.M. Chemical Products in Florida as a paper company in order to operate with Rossi in the US.

    Rossi is now claiming that he has a lot of access to funds (“we are stronger than you can imagine”), and that we can only see the “tip of the iceberg” of the resources behind him:

    —————-
    Andrea Rossi
    April 6, 2016 at 4:07 PM
    Domenico Canino:

    This time the story goes that “Meucci” has the patent, the industry, the product and whomever will try to compete against us will discover what is there under the tip of the iceberg.

    Warm Regards
    A.R.

    On JONP:
    Janne: “.. I hope you will have other sources of MASSIVE financing…”
    “Andrea Rossi April 7, 2016 at 9:17 AM

    Janne:
    We are stronger than you can imagine.

    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”
    ————–

    Perhaps Rossi is referring to having the support of Johnson Matthey Chemical Products? After all, if they are the customer he has just demonstrated to them that his technology achieves >50 COP. If they believe it, they might be VERY excited to develop it. And Rossi has all rights to the UK still, since that is not part of the deal with IH.

    • HS61AF91

      Still, this kinda also fulfills IH’s desire for a betterment of humanity via LENR success, maybe IH and AR designed this way, for that very purpose. Stranger things have happened.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Yea, well they didn’t account on the wild card. Mills’ suncell, makes ecat look like a kitty cat.

    • Mm. Even if the bright light contains more energy than the input current (unproven), I wonder what the efficiency of heating a tungsten membrane by radiation and then trying to collect energy from one side of that in a narrow spectrum using heavy duty photovoltaics is?

      Compared with, say, a sort of simple nickel dust sandwich which produces electrical power (or light if needs be) directly from the electrode plates.

  • Ah!

    • Curbina

      I do not get the same from the statements in the law suit, I get that the COP was consistently higher than 50.

  • Sandy

    The E-Cat is looking more and more like the “red mercury” hoax.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mercury

    I expect them to tell us that there will be no E-Cats on the market during this decade. They will probably announce that production will have to be delayed until the court battles are over and that might take 25 years.

    • Guy Thomas

      You really think so after the Lugano report, multiple independent replications and 1 year of independently verified operation at an actual customers site? What will it take to convince some people!

      • MasterBlaster7

        “What will it take to convince some people!” is your question.

        “You can’t fix stupid” is my answer.

      • Sandy

        James Patterson received a U.S. patent on his cold fusion device. It was a working device! Did that device ever make it to the market? No! The powers that be quashed it. And they will find some way to stop the E-Cat too.

      • BillH

        A buyer? the only buyer so far is IH, they paid $1.5M to purchase the 1MW plant, and leased it to the customer. I’m not sure this equates to a company that had any doubts about E-Cat.

  • JDM

    Perhaps Rossi has gotten funding from bigger fish and IH, not being in control anymore, threw a hissy fit?

    • That (hints of outside funding and powerful backing) is very much the theme of Rossi’s current posts on JoNP.

    • Bob Tivnan

      This respose by Rossi on JONP supports the idea of IH being replaced by bigger fish. Hmm, could it be Saudi Arabia?
      Renzo:
      Yes, Leonardo Corporation has the financial resources necessary to make the massive production we need.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      • Curbina

        Or Johnsom Matthey Chemicals, if indeed JMC is this company as HHiram suggests and also MFMP seems to have in mind.

        • Bob Tivnan

          As a supplier, maybe. As a finance though?

          • Curbina

            The idea is that they were the customers of the 1 MW plant of the test.

  • JDM

    Perhaps Rossi has gotten funding from bigger fish and IH, not being in control anymore, threw a hissy fit?

    • That (hints of outside funding and powerful backing) is very much the theme of Rossi’s current posts on JoNP.

    • Bob Tivnan

      This respose by Rossi on JONP supports the idea of IH being replaced by bigger fish. Hmm, could it be Saudi Arabia?
      Renzo:
      Yes, Leonardo Corporation has the financial resources necessary to make the massive production we need.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      • Curbina

        Or Johnsom Matthey Chemicals, if indeed JMC is this company as HHiram suggests and also MFMP seems to have in mind.

        • Bob Tivnan

          As a supplier, maybe. As a financer though?

          • Curbina

            The idea is that they were the customers of the 1 MW plant of the test.

    • bachcole

      Or the other way around. Perhaps I.H. got tired of Rossi’s irritability or lost marbles or whatever and figured that they could do better if they swiped a few secrets and helped one of their other LENR concerns, and not paid Rossi. Newton was a very irritable person. I know that when I am focused, like when I get an order from my wife, that I hate it when she gives me a second order before I complete the first order. Having to refocus can be very irritating.

  • clovis ray

    Hi Frank,
    I to want the world to have, the cat, as well but Frank, the think looks even more like the lord of the rings tale, there is so much power in the cat, not anyone can handle it, it corrupts them, and Dr. rossi is the only one capable of handling it. he is a good christian and this is why the power doesn’t bother him, kinda like how the ring didn’t work hobbits,
    I have faith that Dr.Rossi, is doing the right thing, he is not going to just give it away, he worked to hard for it for to long to hand it over to a bunch of vc, vultures, that tried to out right, stead his’s life’s work, once again, this is not his first rodeo, remember decaperfron, didn’t spell that right, you know , they tried the same thing, at the very start . and don’t anyone worry, about leo not having enough money, there are plenty of bankers that would love to get a foot in the tent, no Dr. Rossi is smarter than the vc, and if i’m right, he has gave them a nice haircut, for their trouble. lol

    • HS61AF91

      you got that right, Clov!

  • Guy Thomas

    I’ve had my intellectual property stolen by a bigger company in the past – it’s not a nice thing to experience. I hope that Rossi is 100% successful in his litigation.

  • Curbina

    I am thinking now, upon some hints that the JMC company that figures in the last page of the license agreement might actually be a de facto branch of Johnson Mathey Chemicals from UK created purposefully to test the plant in Florida, and that Rossi is playing this game to win back the control of his IP, and that the next customer in UK will precisely be Jonhson Mathey Chemicals. If this is so, Rossi is no longer interested in the US$89 millions but in gaining absolute control of his IP. I have no much to back this possibility, but Jonhson Mathey Chemicals, as MFMP stated in one of their FB comments, was the supplier of the palladium to Fleischmann and Pons, so they are in this history since literally day one.

    • Tom59

      So Rossi and that company may have been collaborating since long to fine-tune the nickel powder to react as desired and that may be the key element that sets them apart from the struggling replicators.

      • wpj

        Totally agree on this. The JM catalyst group is excellent. Maybe the reason for the high COP is that they are preparing it in a consistent manner rather than hand mixing each time.

  • Old_Skeptical

    Can’t help but wonder if Darden realizes the ecat is already obsolete assuming the ecat-x is as successful as it seems. I’m guessing that Rossi refuses to license the ecat-x to Darden and that withholding the progress payments is really about Rossi withholding the transfer of ecat-x production capacity that Darden believes he has a right to.

    • Greedo

      Agree with this. They’d rather have a tiny piece of the eCat-X pie rather than be stuck with the eCat only and have to compete with eCat-X. Perhaps they think they can force concessions out of Rossi by withholding payment. This would explain why their behavior changed, giving Rossi his initial payment before the eCat-X was born.

      • DrD

        Yes, but more to the point, it sounds like IH will know the secret that AR discovered over Christmas leading to direct electrical output from the E-CatX

    • SG

      The license set forth in the agreement includes improvements by Mr. Rossi/Leonardo, which include the e-catX. So very unlikely that this is IH’s motive.

  • Old_Skeptical

    Can’t help but wonder if Darden realizes the ecat is already obsolete assuming the ecat-x is as successful as it seems. I’m guessing that Rossi refuses to license the ecat-x to Darden and that withholding the progress payments is really about Rossi withholding the transfer of ecat-x production capacity that Darden believes he has a right to.

    • Greedo

      Agree with this. They’d rather have a tiny piece of the eCat-X pie rather than be stuck with the eCat only and have to compete with eCat-X. Perhaps they think they can force concessions out of Rossi by withholding payment. This would explain why their behavior changed, giving Rossi his initial payment before the eCat-X was born.

      • DrD

        Yes, but more to the point, it sounds like IH will know the secret that AR discovered over Christmas leading to direct electrical output from the E-CatX

    • SG

      The license set forth in the agreement includes improvements by Mr. Rossi/Leonardo, which include the e-catX. So very unlikely that this is IH’s motive.

  • deleo77

    Rossi and Leonardo are on the U.S. Patent, not Darden and IH. He does not need to sue them for the IP. He has the rights to it now.

    • Curbina

      The idea is that they were the customers of the 1 MW plant of the test.

    • Curbina

      What Rossi claims is that IH filed patents on their own using whatever information they gathered during the work along Rossi. What Rossi wants is those patents to be back in his control.

  • ScienceFan

    With the evidence from a third party what it is now, and with the details of everything spelled out clearly as IP theft and contract fraud, I would expect the court case to be over fairly quickly if not for the fact that they have to pull a jury into this. That always adds a month or more.

    • DrD

      It certainly reads like pre-meditated fraud. How many years could he get.

  • Fred G

    This is my take on it.

    I read everything first thing this morning including all the court papers and anything else on the different websites. I can understand why Rossi is suing them, he was about to become a very rich man to the tune of $89m without ever having to produce an ECAT for sale and he had fulfilled his side of the contract according to his court papers. My criticism is of IH. In my layman’s opinion I think the guaranteed proof it worked was too weak especially when there is $100m at stake. I would like to see IH’s response and the report of the ERV before I come to any more conclusions.

  • Don’t forget that in patent law the single most critical thing is not to get the patent but to be seen to be seriously defending it. Whenever there is an infringement the patent holder has the obligation to prove that they defend their rights, if Rossi were to not file said law suit he would lose his IP by default! Welcome to the sleezy world of law. The easiest and cheapest way to break a patent is to show it has not been defended!

    • SG

      Not entirely accurate. It is impossible for patent holders to know about “whenever there is an infringement.” That asks far too much of the IP owner. There is a legal doctrine called “latches” that is similar to what you are suggesting, but you overstate it. It is easier to “break” a patent by showing it is invalid based on prior art that existed prior to the filing of the patent.

  • Don’t forget that in patent law the single most critical thing is not to get the patent but to be seen to be seriously defending it. Whenever there is an infringement the patent holder has the obligation to prove that they defend their rights, if Rossi were to not file said law suit he would lose his IP by default! Welcome to the sleezy world of law. The easiest and cheapest way to break a patent is to show it has not been defended!

    • SG

      Not entirely accurate. It is impossible for patent holders to know about “whenever there is an infringement.” That asks far too much of the IP owner. There is a legal doctrine called “latches” that is similar to what you are suggesting, but you overstate it. It is easier to “break” a patent by showing it is invalid based on prior art that existed prior to the filing of the patent.

  • Hador_NYC

    http://www.advfn.com/news_Industrial-Heat-Statement-on-Meritless-Litigation_71042451.html

    Industrial heat’s response is basically, Rossi has nothing, but they think LENR has potential

    • SG

      The inconsistencies on IH’s part are more glaring than the fusion occurring in the sun itself.

      • Hador_NYC

        Just to be clear I am not saying Rossi has it, or doesn’t. I want to believe he does, but without proof, he has nothing. I think he has it, so when his legal team allows it to be shown, I will be happy. But, and it’s a big but, until then, I remain skeptical on Rossi. Our friends at Quantum Heat have me convinced there is an effect, but, again, no one has as of yet shown that we can make something of it.

        • Ged

          It is rightly good to be skeptical exactly as you are. Thankfully, now that this is in the courts, we’ll get to see it all in due course–when IH files a defense. Their statement was brief and nonspecific (with the standard counter claims of breaches of contract), so we just have to see what they present.

          • NT

            In court the spotlight will be on all parties to prove their claims – then the world will know for sure about the e-cat at least…

          • Ged

            Ironically, this is a lucky break for us. If Rossi and IH just parted ways without anything more than NDAs and backroom deals, we’d never know what’s going on. Now though, the discovery phase of the trial will mandate nothing pertinent to the case remains hidden. And that means IP deals, and most of all, the performance of the E-cat.

          • NT

            YES!!!

          • HS61AF91

            what a sly and clever chess player our Doctore turns out to be!

  • Hador_NYC

    http://www.advfn.com/news_Industrial-Heat-Statement-on-Meritless-Litigation_71042451.html

    Industrial heat’s response is basically, Rossi has nothing, but they think LENR has potential

    • E-gatto

      Press release from IH:
      http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industrial-heat-statement-on-meritless-litigation-from-leonardo-corporation-and-andrea-rossi-300248066.html?tc=eml_cleartime

      Excerpt:
      Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.

    • SG

      The inconsistencies on IH’s part are more glaring than the fusion occurring in the sun itself.

      • Hador_NYC

        Just to be clear I am not saying Rossi has it, or doesn’t. I want to believe he does, but without proof, he has nothing. I think he has it, so when his legal team allows it to be shown, I will be happy. But, and it’s a big but, until then, I remain skeptical on Rossi. Our friends at Quantum Heat have me convinced there is an effect, but, again, no one has as of yet shown that we can make something of it.

        • Ged

          It is rightly good to be skeptical exactly as you are. Thankfully, now that this is in the courts, we’ll get to see it all in due course–when IH files a defense. Their statement was brief and nonspecific (with the standard counter claims of breaches of contract), so we just have to see what they present.

          • NT

            In court the spotlight will be on all parties to prove their claims – then the world will know for sure about the e-cat at least…

          • Ged

            Ironically, this is a lucky break for us. If Rossi and IH just parted ways without anything more than NDAs and backroom deals, we’d never know what’s going on. Now though, the discovery phase of the trial will mandate nothing pertinent to the case remains hidden. And that means IP deals, and most of all, the performance of the E-cat.

          • NT

            YES!!!

          • HS61AF91

            what a sly and clever chess player our Doctore turns out to be!

    • bachcole

      “Industrial Heat has worked for over three
      years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat
      technology – all without success.” This does not look like nothing. It looks like a denunciation of Rossi’s claim that his E-Cat is real.

      They did not say “We did not steal anything.” They said “The E-Cat is bunk.”

      This is most depressing.

      • HS61AF91

        well that IH statement is just that, a statement, without backing. I anticipate the jury nullifying it, and recognizing, along with the rest of humanity the reality of what has transpired low these last 300+ days! Don’t worry, be happy.

        • bachcole

          Thank you for the last sentence. Trust me when I tell you that I am not really depressed in the real sense of the word. I am just “down” about the E-Cat and people’s ability to get along, especially when something really important comes along. I am very disappointed at Darden. But as to life, everything is either GREAT or moving in that direction. (:->)

      • ScienceFan

        They now have the independent report that the E-Cat was not only running at the required levels, but quite a bit beyond them. That report is going to nail IH to the wall.

      • Omega Z

        bachcole
        They already paid Rossi $10 million for a previous positive test.
        To claim zero positive outcome now?

  • Bob

    It has been a about two months since I last posted and was politely informed that I was out of line.

    I had hoped that with the coming of March, that good news would lead this world into a much needed source of clean energy. Many stated that everything was proven and that expressed concerns were unfounded.

    Now we have possibly the worst news/outcome that I could have envisioned. IH and Rossi not just disagreeing, but a major lawsuit. I have read many posts here about IP, possibly a marketing ploy, possibly a ploy to bring to the courts so that “science monopoly” will have to accept LENR.

    We have the court papers filed by Rossi’s lawyers. We MUST understand that ALL filings will paint a completely biased picture. So one cannot simply take the one sided court filing.

    As usual I awaited to hear from IH / Darden and now we have. 🙁

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industrial-heat-statement-on-meritless-litigation-from-leonardo-corporation-and-andrea-rossi-300248066.html?tc=eml_cleartime

    snip> “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.” <snip

    The response is clear. It is not about IP. The response was that the eCat did not work and that Rossi is the villain. It is hard to understand how a year could go by before they came to this conclusion! Surely they would have seen it early on? Yet their response is clear. I guess the courts will decide?

    Now I do not know who to wait on… Brillioun? BLP? Certainly we will not be seeing anything from Rossi or IH anytime soon or possibly ever. 🙁

    • HS61AF91

      Think about the resonance of LENR/e-Cat vibrating through the digital ways because of a lawsuit! A bare statement of +5 to +50 more power out than in, and taking someone to court for not paying for the result, in a jury trial has an awareness potential far outdistancing any other means of advertising its success. Let the robot production line roll! There is going to be an explosion of attention now, in my opinion.

    • BillH

      I’m moving back towards AR, IH’s statement didn’t really address any of the IP infringement claims. If they had found nothing of substance in E-Cat over the last three year they should have called time on AR and saved us all three years of speculation. That doesn’t add up.

    • Omega Z

      It would appear Industrial Heat has some serious explaining to do.

      To refute Rossi with this press release will draw the ire of Woodford investments and others as they told Woodford and others that they(Industrial heat) had Rossi’s IP and could totally replicate the E-cat and it’s performance. Thus obtaining investments.

      Claims made by Industrial heat
      1) Claim they Can’t replicate Rossi’s work
      2) Claim to Woodford and others they Can replicate Rossi’s work

      Industrial heat has committed Fraud either in the 1st claim or the 2nd claim. They can’t both be true.

  • chemist

    1)
    Andrea Rossi announced the original 10 kW eCat in 2011 to be for sale in the
    near future. Why didn´t Rossi pursue production of this promising device?
    Instead we are faced with the 1 MW eCat, the eCat X, and the eCat Quark-X. 2) Why
    did Rossi choose Fabio Penon for the one-year test? The same person already in
    2012 made a positive evaluation (see http://coldfusionnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/105322688-Penon4-1.pdf)
    and cannot be regarded as a truly independent reviewer. This might raise the
    need for an additional evaluation. 3) If the report is true, saying that enormous
    COP values of 50 are reached, why was a whole year needed to prove the
    function? 4) Now we learn that Rossi is suing Internationl Heat, which can be
    expected to be a time-consuming affair, to say the least. The common denominator
    of all this is clearly a long series of delays. One may wonder whether they are
    intentional.

    • Omega Z

      Note your link has an extra bracket at the end and doesn’t work unless it is removed.

      As To WHY->

      “Why did Rossi choose Fabio Penon for the one-year test? The same person already in 2012 made a positive evaluation (your link) and cannot be regarded as a truly independent reviewer”

      Answer,

      THIS positive evaluation done in 2012 was for Darden & Vaughn in the 1st test. This test included 2 sets of 30 E-cats and the Hot cat. He was also approved by Rossi and Industrial heat. Not by Rossi alone…

  • CatInHat

    An enumeration of possibilities, some mentioned before:

    (1) IH discovered that the customer was a sham…. why was it registered one
    month before being identified as the customer? Why is the president of JM Chemical
    now the president of Leonardo? Why does a distributor of chemicals need to make chemicals?

    (2) IH set things up so that they could have early access to the IP, figuring that
    10 million was a small price to pay for a year head start. While they may not have
    rights to the core technology after defaulting on their agreement, they might
    have rights to critical follow on tech.

    (3) IH may have felt that their scientists contributed crucial IP and so should have rights
    to some of the follow on IP that was created during the 1 year test and before.

    (4) Penon is incompetent and there is substantial doubt about the efficiency of the plant.
    But isn’t 40x hard to mess up?

    (5) IH was unable to raise the money.

    (6) IH knows of a superior technology and does not want to pay 90mill for an inferior one.

    (7) Rossi did not transfer all the IP.

    (8) Rossi transferred IP in good faith but IH was unable to duplicate.

    • Bob Tivnan

      (9) IH became convinced that the E-CAT worked as advertised but determined that his patent would be indefensible due to crucial omissions about the fuel (secret sauce). IH intentionally breached the contract by sharing the IP with Rossi’s competitor(s) with whom they also invested, believing they can destroy Rossi in the market with more reputable partner companies. However, Rossi never released the secret and when he discovered their betrayal, he sues IH.

    • Omega Z

      This is DGT all over again.
      (5) IH was unable to raise the money.

      It’s been Noted that Cherokee has $2 Billion in assets, but assets are not money.
      Also, Those assets are primarily Brown Fields. Easy to tie up large sums of money, but very hard to get back in return. A Few years ago, Darden couldn’t come up with “$20 million” to complete a deal and was bailed out by Donald Trump.

  • HS61AF91

    Think about the resonance of LENR/e-Cat vibrating through the digital ways because of a lawsuit! A bare statement of +5 to +50 more power out than in, and taking someone to court for not paying for the result, in a jury trial has an awareness potential far outdistancing any other means of advertising its success. Let the robot production line roll! There is going to be an explosion of attention now, in my opinion.

  • HS61AF91

    well that IH statement is just that, a statement, without backing. I anticipate the jury nullifying it, and recognizing, along with the rest of humanity the reality of what has transpired low these last 300+ days! Don’t worry, be happy.

  • HS61AF91

    you got that right, Clov!

  • Stephen Renolds

    Hello! I am fairly new to E-Cat and LENR and just read an article about this situation. I researched this Andrea Rossi, and from what I can find from numerous reputable sources including Wikipedia, Andrea was convicted and jailed for fraud and environmental crimes in the past. So my question would be why on earth would anyone take the word of a convicted criminal for fraud over Industrial Heat when fraud is probably the most likely case? Everyone here seems to be making rather in-depth (some outlandish) speculation, but the silent elephant in the room remains the fact that Rossi has a history of fraud conviction and jail time. This is beyond puzzling to my science mind that the majority do not see that this is most likely fraud. It is much like the old saying “fool me once shame on you……..fool me twice shame on me” This sure smells like fraud 2.0 to me.

    • Curbina

      If you think wikipedia is reputable, then you might be having just the negative side on the story regarding Rossi and LENR in general.

      • Stephen Renolds

        Here are my exact words “I researched this Andrea Rossi, and from what I can find from NUMEROUS REPUTABLE SOURCES including Wikipedia, Andrea was convicted and jailed for fraud and environmental crimes in the past.” As you can see I made sure this was information that is found on numerous other sources, so your point is essentially moot. And actually you would be surprised at the accuracy of Wikipedia nowadays since the submission process has been streamlined…but either way this seems to be common knowledge. Do you have evidence to contradict this fact?

        • psi2u2

          Who is saying that, and what were the “reputable sources”?

          I can guarantee you that page has been guarded by a group of highly self-important parties quite impervious to new data. Although now that Rossi’s relationship with Darden has blown up maybe they will get up to date.

          • Ged

            Seriously, just look at what happened to Mike Henderson above.

        • Luca

          Rossi Point of view on this old Italian bad story: http://ingandrearossi.net/

        • Omega Z

          From “NUMEROUS REPUTABLE SOURCES”

          Name those reputable sources and “New Energy Times” and “Wikipedia” don’t count as neither are reputable in this situation.

        • Ged

          Rossi was acquitted in all cases except income tax evasion caused by the bankruptcy of his Petroldragon company, by the way; so he was ultimately found innocent. He was not convicted of fraud or environmental crimes. So, your “reputable sources” are bunk it seems.

    • Edac

      In any matter that is contentious, Wikipedia cannot the relied on to provide an unbiased view of the facts. This applies to a whole range of topics and people, of which Andrea Rossi is just one.

      • Stephen Renolds

        It is a well known fact that Andrea WAS arrested, jailed and convicted Edac.

        • NT

          I beleve it has been stated and shown elswhere in these blogs and on internet that Rossi was exonerated by the italian higher courts. You can do your own FUTHER homework on that please…

        • Ged

          He was acquitted of everything except “income tax evasion” on his company that was bankrupt (which honestly makes no sense, but Italy may not have the same bankruptcy protection laws as the US).

    • US_Citizen71

      Wikipedia reputable LMAO LOL It’s true there’s a sucker born every minute.

    • HS61AF91

      You, sir, appear to be a paid for agitator. As your musings purport innocent wonder, the credibility of your incredulity diminishes. Stick around awhile, and see if you can smell the roses.

    • Andrew Garrad

      Anyone that thinks Wikipedia is a credible source is delusional. Try doing some research on Wikipedia.

  • HS61AF91

    Still, this kinda also fulfills IH’s desire for a betterment of humanity via LENR success, maybe IH and AR designed this way, for that very purpose. Stranger things have happened.

  • HS61AF91

    People are not happy about Panama Papers, much less about a new avoidance of taxes. I prefer to believe that is not the case. I rather opt for a avoidance of having to pay for the publicity that would be required if the court case was not happening.

  • Bob Tivnan

    (9) IH became convinced that the E-CAT worked as advertised but determined that his patent would be indefensible due to crucial omissions about the fuel (secret sauce). IH intentionally breached the contract by sharing the IP with Rossi’s competitor(s) with whom they also invested, believing they can destroy Rossi in the market with more reputable partner companies. However, Rossi never released the secret and when he discovered their betrayal, he sues IH.

  • Curbina

    If you think wikipedia is reputable, then you might be having just the negative side on the story regarding Rossi and LENR in general.

  • Stephen, I’m sorry but you haven’t done your research. He was convicted by a politically corrupted court defending the organized crime owned waste business in Italy. Rossi is an innovator. Innovators often get what’s called “blow back” from the status quo powers. Wasn’t Galileo, one of the founders of modern science, also convicted of a crime? What happened to Telsa? Did you learn about him in school? Why not? And what about Giordano Bruno, burnt at the stake by the Spanish inquisition for saying the universe was infinite? Your statement ignores hundreds of years of human history. Essentially, you’re suggesting guilt by association: Not very scientific of you. As Einstein said: “Great spirits are always violently opposed by mediocre minds.”

    • Robyn Wyrick

      I don’t think you’re correct about “convicted.” I think Rossi was acquitted. Double check, but I think that is the case.

      • SG

        Out of dozens of charges he was acquitted of nearly every one. I think two of them stuck. He served some time. But if you dig deep into his history, what emerges is a story of an entrepreneurial man who stepped on a few too many toes in his effort to disrupt the energy world. This has been a consistent theme throughout most of his adult life.

      • Thanks for your correction to my statement and fact-checking by SG which clears it up. It’s always so important to get the facts right, especially in this cutting-edge topic, and I appreciate your attention to the details.

  • e-dog

    When’s the court date!
    Im excited!

    • deleo77

      Probably sometime in 2017

  • e-dog

    When’s the court date!
    Im excited!

    • deleo77

      Probably sometime in 2017

      • iconoclast73

        people like him and Joe Newman love these stupid court battles – it distracts from having to show real proof

  • Chris Marshalk

    Can Rossi still proceed with the e cat development whilst the court case is current, (which might take years). If he was to continue with his business venture without IH, what implications could this have? Can he still continue without IH?

  • psi2u2

    Who is saying that, and what were the “reputable sources”?

    • Karl Venter

      So what are the senarios

      Rossi wins – he gets 89m but also now IH is in bed with him ( great start to a partnership)
      Rossi Loses – he does not get 89m – He is out of bed with IH and am sure he will get somebody to give him more – and IH obviously still dont have the IP as they say so they cant copy it – If they copy it then they obviously did have the IP

      Is it not better for Rossi to lose?

      • Omega Z

        Note your link has an extra bracket at the end and doesn’t work unless it is removed.

        As To WHY->

        “Why did Rossi choose Fabio Penon for the one-year test? The same person already in 2012 made a positive evaluation (your link) and cannot be regarded as a truly independent reviewer”

        Answer,

        THIS positive evaluation done in 2012 was for Darden & Vaughn in the 1st test. This test included 2 sets of 30 E-cats and the Hot cat. He was also approved by Rossi and Industrial heat. Not by Rossi alone…

    • Ged

      Seriously, just look at what happened to Mike Henderson above.

  • Stephen Renolds

    Simeon, unfortunately your blind perspective is exactly what allows fraud after fraud to be perpetuated. The more I read about Andrea the more this looks like an elaborate hoax. I believe someone has filled your head with political propaganda. I can’t believe all of the connections that are being found now with Rossi and Industrial Heat as people are really starting to dig deep. I think you are placing too much emphasis on faith and hope, and not enough on research yourself actually. You are also missing the bigger picture by a mile…a wise intelligent mind considers all possibilities and weights them accordingly. Where you are missing the boat is to ignore the probability that there absolutely is fraud involved here while keeping the widest mind open to the contrary. A great spirit is nothing more than a great spirit without reality and truth…….

    • Wise and intelligent minds, as you say, look at evidence, they don’t just believe what they read online. What’s your evidence of fraud in this specific instance? Do you have a single piece of data indicating fraud in the current E-Cat test? Because the last time I checked, personal ridicule and ad hominem attacks are not part of the scientific method. And then you’ll have to explain why IH has already paid Rossi millions of dollars for the previous tests, their engineers have said the E-Cat works, and the CEO of IH said at the last Cold Fusion conference in Italy that (paraphrasing) “we are at the tipping point of Cold Fusion being accepted by mainstream society.”

      • Stephen Renolds

        Please do not put words in my mouth. I have not stated that I have evidence of fraud, my point is that so many here are ignoring the possibility that this is fraud especially taking into account this would not be Rossi’s first experience with fraud, yet investing completely in crucifying IH. How is pointing the finger of accusation at IH fair when giving Rossi a pass when we don’t know the facts? As I have stated I have not claimed evidence of fraud…I volley your question back, what evidence do you have of proof of operation or proof of misbehavior on the part of IH? And please do not stoop to the level of pointing out persona ridicule when you were the first to do so with your snide remark regarding what I learned in school…it was quite transparent and childish as well as not part of the scientific method.

        • timycelyn

          Actually, Rossi has no prior experience of fraud.

          He does have prior experience of being fitted up by a corrupt judicial system and the Mafia, but that is rather different…

        • orsobubu

          Saverio
          March 6, 2016 at 5:14 PM
          Dear Dr Andrea Rossi:
          The General Emilio Spaziante, who tormented you and caused the
          destruction of your industry in the nineties, stimulating the monopoly
          of the criminal organizations in the business of industrial wastes
          treatment, as we read on the book “An impossible invention” of Mats
          Lewan, has been put again in jail, after his arrest one year ago for
          corruption. Again millions of euros have been found in his possession ,
          enormous sums unjustified by his wage as a general.
          Can you comment the link hereunder?

          http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2015/02/28/confiscati-4-milioni-spaziante-usava-ufficiali-gdf-come-prestanome/1463319

          Andrea Rossi
          March 6, 2016 at 6:06 PM

          Saverio: My comment is that the investigation has been made
          by the same GdF, (Guardia di Finanza): this fact gives evidence that
          this military Corp is
          clean and able to defend its own integrity by itself, sending to jail
          its own commanders when they make criminal acts.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.

          Louis Duvalier
          September 6th, 2015 at 3:51 AM
          …Andrea Rossi, put in jail for crimes for which he has been totally
          acquitted; eventually it will be known that the general that had made
          Rossi arrested has been put in jail for 4 years for corruption: his name
          is Emilio Spaziante and he has been arrested from his own colleagues
          that have discovered that he used to spend for his personal expenses 3
          million euros per year. If you go to Wikipedia to read his biography, he
          is presented like a sort of a hero….

          DTravchenko
          February 28th, 2015 at 9:00 AM
          Dr Rossi: Here is the new story of the General Spaziante that in the nineties had
          started, organized and directed the action that put you in jail for
          crimes you have cleared of after years and in the meantime destroyed
          your life and your business: got it today from my informants:

          http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2015/02/28/confiscati-4-milioni-spaziante-usava-ufficiali-gdf-come-prestanome/1463319/

          He was corrupted. He pleaded guilty for corruption and is in prison.
          Comments?
          From Russia, with love,
          D.T.

          Andrea Rossi
          February 28th, 2015 at 9:23 AM
          DTravchenko:
          I have no comments related to the person, but, as an Italian, I want to
          state this: Italian Guardia Di Finanza (Custom Police) is a glorious
          military Corp that for more than a century has defended our Country
          fighting and working with honour and sacrifice. We have 60,000 military
          of this Corp and at least the 99.9% of them are heroes that for a wage
          not proportional to their sacrifice risk their life to defend us. It is
          unavoidable, under a statistic point of view, that among 60,000 persons
          there is somebody not good, but I can assure you that in my career, when
          I worked in Italy, I have known many of them, and they were very, very,
          very decent persons.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.

  • Sandy

    “Leonardo Corporation does not anticipate that there will be any delay in the commercial release of the E-Cat technology as a result of the lawsuit.”
    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cold-fusion-lenr-verified–inventor-sues-industrial-heat-llc-300247317.html

  • NT

    I beleve it has been stated and shown elswhere in these blogs and on internet that Rossi was exonerated by the italian higher courts. You can do your own FUTHER homework on that please…

  • US_Citizen71

    Wikipedia reputable LMAO LOL It’s true there’s a sucker born every minute.

  • Stephen Renolds

    I see some of my comments are being deleted by the moderator while the antagonizing responses from others are not…unfair censorship in a forum does such a terrible disservice for the whole field. So with that I shall move on, so closed minded. Shame on bad moderation.

    • timycelyn

      From what has been left in, I would say Frank was leaning over backwards to give you as much leeway as seemed fair. Quite a few people on the group took time to try and bring you up to date with a lot of the background, complete with the necessary health warnings.

      So I’m sorry to say that the moderation seems entirely appropriate. If you want a stimulating discussion with open minded individuals who perhaps take an ever so slightly darker view of these gongs – on, please feel free to migrate to E- cat News.

      A bastion of balanced and open – minded debate.

      […. And I’m the Archbishop of Canterbury…]

  • Ophelia Rump

    How does Industrial Heat not foresee a delay when they have withheld the payment which would pay for the robotic factory, or are their other lines of cash flow which we are unaware of?

  • Ophelia Rump

    How does Industrial Heat not foresee a delay when they have withheld the payment which would pay for the robotic factory, or are their other lines of cash flow which we are unaware of?

    Was the 100 Million intended as pure profit for Dottore Rossi or was that to finance the Leonardo Corporation?

    Is this whole spectacle a way to make a splash in the Financials?

    For the answer to these and more questions, stay tuned.

  • timycelyn

    Actually, Rossi has no prior experience of fraud.

    He does have prior experience of being fitted up by a corrupt judicial system and the Mafia, but that is rather different…

  • Shiv Singh

    IH is cutting the blood supply to Rossi so that they can steal his technology. IH are smart thieves.

  • Shiv Singh

    Rossi can beat IH in their own game by showing a public demo of his working reactor. IH will go to jail, and Rossi will get billions of new investment.

  • Slad

    Mary Yugo, who is an expert on calorimetry, according to Mary Yugo.

  • Slad

    Just a thought: What’s the deal with Fabiani? I had always assumed that it was a case of “old mates from Italy” but now the lawsuit suggests that Fabiani is working for Industrial Heat. I found some possibly pertinent quotes from a re-read of his Lewan interview:

    “In 2012, a common friend introduced him to Rossi who was then looking for a person who could develop and improve the power supply system for the first version of the E-Cat.”

    “Rossi is the head and runs the R&D. We have staff, technicians who help us. I’m the link between Rossi and the others for everything that regards R&D. I don’t have knowledge on the reaction because the formula is not my concern.”

    ““To be more precise I am bound by an agreement with Industrial Heat, and I’m available for Rossi”

    “With the failures, I found myself having to believe in it. Why? Because when something fails, you see the behavior of the object. The next time you adjust it, then you see that it behaves very differently. And then you realize that it is something unique. We have it all filmed, which still cannot be disclosed. We have photographs of creatures that emit pure light that have completely melted the reactor down, all in a very quiet way. You just turn off the stimuli system and the reaction is switched off. It’s impressive.”

    • Ged

      I really hope the court brings to light those videos and photos he references. I don’t know how deep discovery can go, and where trade secrets can prevent court documents from being public, though. But that would be very interesting supporting info.

  • Slad

    Just a thought: What’s the deal with Fabiani? I had always assumed that it was a case of “old mates from Italy” but now the lawsuit suggests that Fabiani was working for Industrial Heat. I found some possibly pertinent quotes from a re-read of his Lewan interview:

    “In 2012, a common friend introduced him to Rossi who was then looking for a person who could develop and improve the power supply system for the first version of the E-Cat.”

    ““To be more precise I am bound by an agreement with Industrial Heat, and I’m available for Rossi”

    “With the failures, I found myself having to believe in it. Why? Because when something fails, you see the behavior of the object. The next time you adjust it, then you see that it behaves very differently. And then you realize that it is something unique. We have it all filmed, which still cannot be disclosed. We have photographs of creatures that emit pure light that have completely melted the reactor down, all in a very quiet way. You just turn off the stimuli system and the reaction is switched off. It’s impressive.”

    • Ged

      I really hope the court brings to light those videos and photos he references. I don’t know how deep discovery can go, and where trade secrets can prevent court documents from being public, though. But that would be very interesting supporting info.

  • Mike Henderson

    Can someone with a good Wikipedia account update the Energy Catalyzer article with the last two year’s events?

    Okay, I invested a lot of effort into trying to write a fair and supported synopsis of recent events. But instead I got banned forever for being a “new and single topic” contributor. I guess the lesson is not to start with a controversial topic.

    Here is what I wrote (you can see it in the article’s history page, too).

    == Licensing Validation Testing and Dispute ==

    In June 2014, Andrea Rossi stated{{cite web | last = Rossi | first = Andrea | title=A. Rossi forum post | url = http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=848&cpage=6#comment-966107 | date = 2014-06-10 | access-date = 2016-05-07}} that a one year long test of a one megawatt heat device was about to commence in an industrial customer’s facility. Photographs{{cite web | last = Rossi | first = Andrea | title=Photos of Rossi and associates with 1MW test device | url = http://andrea-rossi.com/1mw-plant/ | date = 2015 | access-date=2016-05-07}} were later published showing Mr. Rossi and several associates working inside a shipping container that he said housed that device. Over the following twenty months, Rossi frequently posted brief updates on the test at his online journal-of-nuclear-physics.com website. Aspects of the test were shrouded in secrecy, no information was disclosed about the customer nor were any quantitative measures of the plant’s performance. The volume and frequency of posts were suggestive that the tests consumed Rossi’s attention. An active online community of followers developed on websites such as animpossibleinvention.com (Mats Lewan’s blog), e-catworld.com, and lenr-forum.com.

    In February of 2016 Rossi announced the conclusion of the test. In March of 2016, he said the report by the Expert Responsible for Validation (ERV) had been delivered and the test was successful. Rossi initially said the ERV’s results would be released “in tenths (sic) of days” but soon changed his statement to say it would be released in some form when all involved parties agreed. In April 2016, Andrea Rossi and Leonardo Corporation filed a federal lawsuit in the South Florida District Court of the U.S. against licensee Industrial Heat LLC (IH), Cherokee Partners LLC and others. The complaint asserts that those parties had failed to pay $89 million under their licensing agreement upon certification by the ERV of a successful year-long test. The complaint also claimed they had engaged in a “fraudulent scheme to wrongfully deprive Rossi and Leonardo of their intellectual property” by sharing trade secrets with competitors and filing patent applications of their own for Rossi’s works.

    The complaint{{cite web | title = CIVIL COMPLAINT & DEMAND FOR JURY TRIAL A. Rossi & Leonardo Corp v Industrial Heating LLC et al | url = https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/rossi_et_al_v_darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001-0.pdf | date=2016-04-05 | access-date=2016-04-07}} states that a twenty four hour performance test had been conducted in May 2013, was validated by an independent expert, and Rossi had received $10 million dollars as partial payment for achieving that progress milestone.

    The complaint also states that a test began February 19, 2015 when the ERV had installed monitoring instruments in the previously installed Energy Catalyzer system. The ERV is identified as Eng. Fabio Penon. The specific location of the test is not disclosed, only “a customer in Miami, Florida, who agreed to allow its facility to be used for the Guaranteed Performance Test and even agreed to pay IH up to One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00) per day for the energy produced by the E-Cat Unit.”

    “On February 15, 2016, the Guaranteed Performance test was successfully concluded. The E-Cat Unit had successfully operated for more than three hundred fifty (350) days out of a four hundred (400) day period at a level substantially greater than the level achieved during the Validation Test. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.” The specific output of the heat plant is not described in the complaint, but it is widely describe by Rossi and others as a 1 megawatt plant. The $1000 per day customer payment described in the complaint is consistent with delivery of 1 megawatt of steam at a significant discount from prevailing energy rates.

    “On or about March 29, 2016, the ERV published his final report regarding the operation of the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance test. In the ERV’s report, the ERV confirmed that the E-Cat Unit had satisfied all of the performance requirements imposed by the License Agreement including, but not limited to, the requirement that the production of energy was at least six (6) times greater than the energy consumed. … In fact, the ERV found that during the testing period, the average energy multiplier (Energy Produced ÷ Energy Consumed) was often greater than sixty (60).”

    On April 7, 2016, Industrial Heat issued a press release{{cite web | title = Industrial Heat Statement on Meritless Litigation from Leonardo Corporation and Andrea Rossi | url = http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industrial-heat-statement-on-meritless-litigation-from-leonardo-corporation-and-andrea-rossi-300248066.html?tc=eml_cleartime | date=2016-04-07 | access-date=2016-04-07}} stating that it disputed the claims in Rossi’s complaint and they would put forth a vigorous defense. The press release states, in part, “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

    and under the section titled PATENTS, I added the following.

    On August 25,2015, the [[US Patent Office]] issued U.S. Patent No. 9,115,913 B1 entitled “Fluid Heater.”{{cite web | title = U.S. Patent No. 9,115,913 B1 “Fluid Heater” |url = https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/rossi_et_al_v_darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001-1.pdf | date = 2015-08-25 | access-date=2016-04-07}} A layered device is described in some detail, however it is noteworthy that the patent does not disclose nor discuss the nuclear mechanism whereby exothermic heat is generated. This omission is consistent with the fact that the USPTO rejects patents that claim fringe physics effects such as perpetual motion, cold fusion, time travel, teleportation and reactionless propulsion.

    All changes were rolled back a couple times and I got a lifetime ban.

    • Ged

      Talk about some gatekeeping on their part. Sorry to hear you got banned.

    • kdk

      That’ll teach yah, mang. I don’t know how many nice words that there are to describe them and their behavior.

    • SG

      Don’t even try with Wikipedia. Let the Nazi-like editors revel in their ignorance. It only hurts them and the credibility of Wikipedia in the end. It is a shame. Wikipedia works well for non-controversial topics, and not so well otherwise.

      • Mats002

        Agree. Remember a fight with one of the gatekeepers about ‘Cold fusion’, we lost of course but made some fuzz anyway:

        http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/09/08/the-invisible-lenr-revolution/

      • Manuel Cruz

        The only purpose of Wikipedia is to make it easier for them to edit past events and historical figures, 1984-style, and to control the narrative in the present. Not even non-controversial topics are free of disinformation.

    • psi2u2

      The atmosphere is toxic. I suggest redirecting your efforts for the time being. Until Wikipedia reforms itself and wises up, its pretty much useless in my opinion.

  • Mike Henderson

    Can someone with a good Wikipedia account update the Energy Catalyzer article with the last two year’s events?

    Okay, I invested a lot of effort into trying to write a fair and supported synopsis of recent events. But instead I got banned forever for being a “new and single topic” contributor. I guess the lesson is not to start with a controversial topic.

    Here is what I wrote (you can see it in the article’s history page, too).

    == Licensing Validation Testing and Dispute ==

    In June 2014, Andrea Rossi stated{{cite web | last = Rossi | first = Andrea | title=A. Rossi forum post | url = http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=848&cpage=6#comment-966107 | date = 2014-06-10 | access-date = 2016-05-07}} that a one year long test of a one megawatt heat device was about to commence in an industrial customer’s facility. Photographs{{cite web | last = Rossi | first = Andrea | title=Photos of Rossi and associates with 1MW test device | url = http://andrea-rossi.com/1mw-plant/ | date = 2015 | access-date=2016-05-07}} were later published showing Mr. Rossi and several associates working inside a shipping container that he said housed that device. Over the following twenty months, Rossi frequently posted brief updates on the test at his online journal-of-nuclear-physics.com website. Aspects of the test were shrouded in secrecy, no information was disclosed about the customer nor were any quantitative measures of the plant’s performance. The volume and frequency of posts were suggestive that the tests consumed Rossi’s attention. An active online community of followers developed on websites such as animpossibleinvention.com (Mats Lewan’s blog), e-catworld.com, and lenr-forum.com.

    In February of 2016 Rossi announced the conclusion of the test. In March of 2016, he said the report by the Expert Responsible for Validation (ERV) had been delivered and the test was successful. Rossi initially said the ERV’s results would be released “in tenths (sic) of days” but soon changed his statement to say it would be released in some form when all involved parties agreed. In April 2016, Andrea Rossi and Leonardo Corporation filed a federal lawsuit in the South Florida District Court of the U.S. against licensee Industrial Heat LLC (IH), Cherokee Partners LLC and others. The complaint asserts that those parties had failed to pay $89 million under their licensing agreement upon certification by the ERV of a successful year-long test. The complaint also claimed they had engaged in a “fraudulent scheme to wrongfully deprive Rossi and Leonardo of their intellectual property” by sharing trade secrets with competitors and filing patent applications of their own for Rossi’s works.

    The complaint{{cite web | title = CIVIL COMPLAINT & DEMAND FOR JURY TRIAL A. Rossi & Leonardo Corp v Industrial Heating LLC et al | url = https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/rossi_et_al_v_darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001-0.pdf | date=2016-04-05 | access-date=2016-04-07}} states that a twenty four hour performance test had been conducted in May 2013, was validated by an independent expert, and Rossi had received $10 million dollars as partial payment for achieving that progress milestone.

    The complaint also states that a test began February 19, 2015 when the ERV had installed monitoring instruments in the previously installed Energy Catalyzer system. The ERV is identified as Eng. Fabio Penon. The specific location of the test is not disclosed, only “a customer in Miami, Florida, who agreed to allow its facility to be used for the Guaranteed Performance Test and even agreed to pay IH up to One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00) per day for the energy produced by the E-Cat Unit.”

    “On February 15, 2016, the Guaranteed Performance test was successfully concluded. The E-Cat Unit had successfully operated for more than three hundred fifty (350) days out of a four hundred (400) day period at a level substantially greater than the level achieved during the Validation Test. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.” The specific output of the heat plant is not described in the complaint, but it is widely describe by Rossi and others as a 1 megawatt plant. The $1000 per day customer payment described in the complaint is consistent with delivery of 1 megawatt of steam at a significant discount from prevailing energy rates.

    “On or about March 29, 2016, the ERV published his final report regarding the operation of the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance test. In the ERV’s report, the ERV confirmed that the E-Cat Unit had satisfied all of the performance requirements imposed by the License Agreement including, but not limited to, the requirement that the production of energy was at least six (6) times greater than the energy consumed. … In fact, the ERV found that during the testing period, the average energy multiplier (Energy Produced ÷ Energy Consumed) was often greater than sixty (60).”

    On April 7, 2016, Industrial Heat issued a press release{{cite web | title = Industrial Heat Statement on Meritless Litigation from Leonardo Corporation and Andrea Rossi | url = http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industrial-heat-statement-on-meritless-litigation-from-leonardo-corporation-and-andrea-rossi-300248066.html?tc=eml_cleartime | date=2016-04-07 | access-date=2016-04-07}} stating that it disputed the claims in Rossi’s complaint and they would put forth a vigorous defense. The press release states, in part, “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

    and under the section titled PATENTS, I added the following.

    On August 25,2015, the [[US Patent Office]] issued U.S. Patent No. 9,115,913 B1 entitled “Fluid Heater.”{{cite web | title = U.S. Patent No. 9,115,913 B1 “Fluid Heater” |url = https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/rossi_et_al_v_darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001-1.pdf | date = 2015-08-25 | access-date=2016-04-07}} A layered device is described in some detail, however it is noteworthy that the patent does not disclose nor discuss the nuclear mechanism whereby exothermic heat is generated. This omission is consistent with the fact that the USPTO rejects patents that claim fringe physics effects such as perpetual motion, cold fusion, time travel, teleportation and reactionless propulsion.

    All changes were rolled back a couple times and I got a lifetime ban.

    • Ged

      Talk about some gatekeeping on their part. Sorry to hear you got banned.

    • kdk

      That’ll teach yah, mang. I don’t know how many nice words that there are to describe them and their behavior.

    • SG

      Don’t even try with Wikipedia. Let the Nazi-like editors revel in their ignorance. It only hurts them and the credibility of Wikipedia in the end. It is a shame. Wikipedia works well for non-controversial topics, and not so well otherwise.

      • Mats002

        Agree. Remember a fight with one of the gatekeepers about ‘Cold fusion’, we lost of course but made some fuzz anyway:

        http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/09/08/the-invisible-lenr-revolution/

      • Manuel Cruz

        The only purpose of Wikipedia is to make it easier for them to edit past events and historical figures, 1984-style, and to control the narrative in the present. Not even non-controversial topics are free of disinformation.

    • LesioQ

      SOB-s ! And I donated them $10 in the past. Frankie says – No more!

    • psi2u2

      The atmosphere is toxic. I suggest redirecting your efforts for the time being. Until Wikipedia reforms itself and wises up, its pretty much useless in my opinion.

  • Michel Vandenberghe

    Considering their business is based on IP , is their business viable considering the current maturity of IP and low barriers to entry once the initial process is known?

    • Mats002

      This looks like a fight over a single non-americans IP on US soil, Capitol Hill is involved – we know Brillouin went there. What can the outcome in US court system be?
      I think EU must step up behind Leonardo, ST Electronics, Piantelli and all other european LENR initiatives. I hope they do behind the scenes, you can make a difference in this play Michael!

      • Michel Vandenberghe

        We can if Rossii asks us some help…

        • DrD

          It certainly reads like pre-meditated fraud. How many years could he get.

  • Michel Vandenberghe

    Considering their business is based on IP , is their business viable considering the current maturity of IP and low barriers to entry once the initial process is known?

    • Mats002

      This looks like a fight over a single non-americans IP on US soil, Capitol Hill is involved – we know Brillouin went there. What can the outcome in US court system be?
      I think EU must step up behind Leonardo, ST Electronics, Piantelli and all other european LENR initiatives. I hope they do behind the scenes, you can make a difference in this play Michael!

      • Michel Vandenberghe

        We can if Rossii asks us some help to set up a different way to develop the LENR market…. I think that the game has been open to several players in the US… Developing IP requires research and funding is going to grow fast…

  • e-dog

    If Rossi gave them the formula and they reproduced his work and tried to dodge the deal…. bad IH.. take those bastards out the back and sort them out

    If Rossi’s ecat does work why are they not cashing in and investing like they said they would? If they sold a million e-cats for $200 bucks they have doubled their money? No?

    This is all so dodgy!
    Rossi needs to man up and save the world if he is for real, tell us all the formula and really start the new fire. Change the world, dont be selfish.

  • e-dog

    If Rossi gave them the formula and they reproduced his work and tried to dodge the deal…. bad IH.. take those bastards out the back and sort them out

    If Rossi’s ecat does work why are they not cashing in and investing like they said they would? If they sold a million e-cats for $200 bucks they have doubled their money? No?

    This is all so dodgy!
    Rossi needs to man up and save the world if he is for real, tell us all the formula and really start the new fire. Change the world, dont be selfish.

  • e-dog

    Just stealing some IP from Catinhat below:

    (3) IH may have felt that their scientists contributed crucial IP and so should have rights to some of the follow on IP that was created during the 1 year test and before.

    very good point.. the how much improvement and insight to how the ecat works … actually came from Rossi? if it does actually work?

    If this is the case it goes to show that keeping this tech secret is selfish and bad for us all. imagine keeping penicillin a secret!!!

    • Michael W Wolf

      If it didn’t just come from Rossi, they would be able to duplicate.

      • Mike Ivanov

        How about Parchomov and several other tests where excess heat has been detected?

        • Dave

          Claiming *some* excess heat isn’t the same as what Rossi is claiming. Rossi has said he has been able to get consistent, stable, and useful energy from his E-Cat for years. That’s far, far beyond anything anyone else working with LENR is claiming.

          • Mike Ivanov

            If you remember the first AR public show, every skeptic said what such reaction is impossible in principle, and Rossi is a fraudster.

  • e-dog

    Just stealing some IP from Catinhat below:

    (3) IH may have felt that their scientists contributed crucial IP and so should have rights to some of the follow on IP that was created during the 1 year test and before.

    very good point.. the how much improvement and insight to how the ecat works … actually came from Rossi? if it does actually work?

    If this is the case it goes to show that keeping this tech secret is selfish and bad for us all. imagine keeping penicillin a secret!!!

    • Michael W Wolf

      If it didn’t just come from Rossi, they would be able to duplicate.

  • e-dog

    Can I equate the e-cat technology to penicillin? I think its totally legit and fair.
    Am I wrong?

  • e-dog

    Can I equate the e-cat technology to penicillin? I think its totally legit and fair.
    Am I wrong?

  • SG

    I know this is all water under the bridge now, but if Mr. Rossi/Leonardo and IH had agreed up-front to the following, there would likely be no dispute today:

    1) Escrow the $89 million
    2) Form a 50/50 joint venture holding company to hold improvement patents in which inventive contributions were made by personnel from both Leonardo and IH.

    This would have 1) provided a neutral escrow to determine whether the ERV met or exceeded the test criteria, and release the funds to the deserving party, and 2) ensured that Mr. Rossi/Leonardo and IH interests were aligned for improvements in which contributions were made by both sides.

    • Ged

      Business lessons to learn!

      • SG

        Indeed. Another approach would have been for Mr. Rossi/Leonardo to insist on a percentage royalty of any value or products derived from improvement patents filed by IH.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Let’s hope Rossi’s ;awyers do a better job in court.

  • SG

    I know this is all water under the bridge now, but if Mr. Rossi/Leonardo and IH had agreed up-front to the following, there would likely be no dispute today:

    1) Escrow the $89 million
    2) Form a 50/50 joint venture holding company to hold improvement patents in which inventive contributions were made by personnel from both Leonardo and IH.

    This would have 1) provided a neutral escrow to determine whether the ERV report met or exceeded the test criteria, and release the funds to the deserving party, and 2) ensured that Mr. Rossi/Leonardo and IH interests were aligned for improvements in which contributions were made by both sides.

    Even better for Mr. Rossi/Leonardo, he could have insisted on an assign-back clause in which any improvements made by IH were assigned (i.e., ownership transferred) back to Mr. Rossi/Leonardo. Now, this might have been a tough one to negotiate with IH at the time, given that the viability of the e-Cat was less known at the time. But using my 20/20 hindsight, Mr. Rossi should have stuck to his guns on that one.

    • Ged

      Business lessons to learn!

      • SG

        Indeed. Another approach would have been for Mr. Rossi/Leonardo to insist on a percentage royalty of any value or products derived from improvement patents filed by IH.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Let’s hope Rossi’s lawyers do a better job in court.

  • HS61AF91

    Here’s a look at the negative, paid for propaganda that the word ‘alleged’ engenders. The lawsuit is going to prove ‘alleged’ as fact. Without the lawsuit, just think what such despicable publicity would do.

    http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2016/04/scientist-sues-raleigh-cold-fusion-startup.html

    “Scientist sues Raleigh cold fusion startup, Cherokee Investment Partners over $89M licensing fee”

  • HS61AF91

    Here’s a look at the negative, paid for propaganda that the word ‘alleged’ engenders. The lawsuit is going to prove ‘alleged’ as fact. Without the lawsuit, just think what such despicable publicity would do.

    http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2016/04/scientist-sues-raleigh-cold-fusion-startup.html

    “Scientist sues Raleigh cold fusion startup, Cherokee Investment Partners over $89M licensing fee”

  • HS61AF91

    You, sir, appear to be a paid for agitator. As your musings purport innocent wonder, the credibility of your incredulity diminishes. Stick around awhile, and see if you can smell the roses.

  • Stefenski

    My guess is that this all revolves around the next generation device E-Cat ( the E-CatX )

    Somewhere along the line IH & Rossi don’t see eye to eye any-more.

    Rossi meanwhile develops much better E-CatX. IH want it to replace old version.
    That wasn’t the deal says Rossi.

    You have the version1. Now pay up the 1 year test passed, as agreed.

    But who will want old version when your E-CatX is so much better, says IH.
    We will have to give Woodford back their investment.
    Therefore we will not have the money to pay you as promised..

    let the subterfuge begin

    • Omega Z

      According to the agreement, Industrial heat would have ongoing technology improvement rights. i.e., Hot-cat, E-cat X, E-cat Quark etc, etc,,,.

      • Mats002

        Yes but not run with it to another competitor like Brillouin, if they did so.

        Breach of contract probably happened around mid 2015 so AR had some time to prepare his case.

        • Omega Z

          If they shared Rossi’s IP with a competitor, they should hope I’m not on the jury. I would award Ross 10x damages and null void the license rights of Industrial heat.

    • Michael W Wolf

      It would explain why Rossi kept telling us ecat was NOT obsolete. I couldn’t undertstand for the life of me what good ecat was if you have ecatx. IH feels the same way I guess. But now we know why Rossi kept saying ecat was still viable, he had to in his mind. But I don’t know why he figured IH wouldn’t realize this if he didn’t say it. Maybe legally it will be important.

  • Karl Venter

    So what are the senarios

    Rossi wins – he gets 89m but also now IH is in bed with him ( great start to a partnership)
    Rossi Loses – he does not get 89m – He is out of bed with IH and am sure he will get somebody to give him more – and IH obviously still dont have the IP as they say so they cant copy it – If they copy it then they obviously did have the IP

    Is it not better for Rossi to lose?

    • catfish

      no. if he loses, the general opinion will be (quite possibly correctly) that he doesn’t have anything worth bringing to market, and suing his initial investor could leave him toxic to future investors. The fact that independent investigators may be getting close to understanding how this works, means it will just be that much easier for others to reverse engineerand avoid his somewhat vague copyright, anyway. So yes, he has to win this, in my opinion. This is what courts are for. Let’s see what happens.

      OTOH if he wins, he’s validated, his patent should hold up, and Industrial Heat is going to have some splainin to do with their investors.

      • iconoclast73

        win or lose – doesn’t matter – he will still evade the elephant in the room “WHERE IS THE REAL PROOF” all his “proof” so far is shot full of holes. look at his long long history of not coming through and lying about big deals right around the corner. many people have been addicted to years of hoping good proof is 2 weeks away. ain’t happening folks

        • re: “shot full of holes” You have waved your hands quite vigorously, yet w/o much content or evidence brought to the table.

  • Omega Z

    According to the agreement, Industrial heat would have ongoing technology improvement rights. i.e., Hot-cat, E-cat X, E-cat Quark etc, etc,,,.

  • Omega Z

    From “NUMEROUS REPUTABLE SOURCES”

    Name those reputable sources and “New Energy Times” and “Wikipedia” don’t count as neither are reputable in this situation.

  • Omega Z

    This is DGT all over again.
    (5) IH was unable to raise the money.

    It’s been Noted that Cherokee has $2 Billion in assets, but assets are not money.
    Also, Those assets are primarily Brown Fields. Easy to tie up large sums of money, but very hard to get back in return. A Few years ago, Darden couldn’t come up with “$20 million” to complete a deal and was bailed out by Donald Trump.

  • Ged

    Rossi was acquitted in all cases except income tax evasion caused by the bankruptcy of his Petroldragon company, by the way; so he was ultimately found innocent. He was not convicted of fraud or environmental crimes. So, your “reputable sources” are bunk it seems.

  • Omega Z

    It would appear Industrial Heat has some serious explaining to do.

    To refute Rossi with this press release will draw the ire of Woodford investments and others as they told Woodford and others that they(Industrial heat) had Rossi’s IP and could totally replicate the E-cat and it’s performance. Thus obtaining investments.

    Claims made by Industrial heat
    1) Claim they Can’t replicate Rossi’s work
    2) Claim to Woodford and others they Can replicate Rossi’s work

    Industrial heat has committed Fraud either in the 1st claim or the 2nd claim. They can’t both be true.

  • Omega Z

    bachcole
    They already paid Rossi $10 million for a previous positive test.
    To claim zero positive outcome now?

  • Omega Z

    If they shared Rossi’s IP with a competitor, they should hope I’m not on the jury. I would award Ross 10x damages and null void the license rights of Industrial heat.

  • Ged

    He was acquitted of everything except “income tax evasion” on his company that was bankrupt (which honestly makes no sense, but Italy may not have the same bankruptcy protection laws as the US).

  • This sounds exactly what Edison and Tesla went through that created their big divide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZInLPe_bezQ (starting at the 1:03 mark)

  • This sounds exactly what Edison and Tesla went through that created their big divide. It’s deja vu all over again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZInLPe_bezQ (starting at the 1:03 mark)

    • Barry, the presenter’s main point is instruction in “How electricity works” and not so much a fully accurate historical documentary …

  • Michael W Wolf

    It would explain why Rossi kept telling us ecat was NOT obsolete. I couldn’t undertstand for the life of me what good ecat was if you have ecatx. IH feels the same way I guess. But now we know why Rossi kept saying ecat was still viable, he had to in his mind. But I don’t know why he figured IH wouldn’t realize this if he didn’t say it. Maybe legally it will be important.

  • Shouldn’t the important question be: “Is the E-Cat actually working at all?” After all, we cannot take Rossi’s words for it. One would expect that’s the reason of the court case.

    Then again the reason for courting could be that Industrial Heat is trying to get a larger piece of the cake. Who knows…

    • iconoclast73

      absolutely right – in the history of free energy con men – there is a long thread in distraction away from the fundamental question “where is the good independent evidence of it working” and towards locking horns with former supporters. He’s had years to do a proper test and never has – this is all BS – the guy needs to go back to jail and stop wasting the time and money of people who could have invested in something with potential

      • Mike Ivanov

        How about Parchomov and several other tests where excess heat has been detected?

        • Dave

          Claiming *some* excess heat isn’t the same as what Rossi is claiming. Rossi has said he has been able to get consistent, stable, and useful energy from his E-Cat for years. That’s far, far beyond anything anyone else working with LENR is claiming.

          • Mike Ivanov

            If you remember the first AR public show, every skeptic said what such reaction is impossible in principle, and Rossi is a fraudster.

        • iconoclast73

          I’m not up on that. It is my general impression from the legit part of the LENR realm that any repeatable experiment gives pretty low levels or runs a while and stops. I’m sure it has been frustrating for those people. None of them claim factories have been heated for months by LENR

          • Mike Ivanov

            For me the fact what LENR reaction is real, not scam or fake, makes HUGE difference. It means what it is on matter of time to make commercial device. I also means what mainstream physics have huge problem, since they wast billions on hot fusion device and none of them have COP>1, comparing to several hot cat experiments.

  • Mike Ivanov

    For me the fact what LENR reaction is real, not scam or fake, makes HUGE difference. It means what it is on matter of time to make commercial device. I also means what mainstream physics have huge problem, since they wast billions on hot fusion device and none of them have COP>1, comparing to several hot cat experiments.

  • mike

    if it does work, it seems rossi is holding the world hostage for money which, if true, he rightly deserves, but, at what point does greed give way to doing the right thing, especially one of this magnatude.