Industrial Heat Issue Statement, Say Rossi Lawsuit 'Without Merit'

In an article written by Lauren K. Ohnesorge published today in the Triangle Business Journal which discusses the Rossi/Leonardo Corp. lawsuit against Industrial Heat.

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2016/04/scientist-sues-raleigh-cold-fusion-startup.html

The article reviews the scope of the lawsuit and reports that JT Vaughn of Industrial Heat has issued a statement calling the suit “without merit.”

UPDATE: Industrial Heat has issues a response in the following press release:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industrial-heat-statement-on-meritless-litigation-from-leonardo-corporation-and-andrea-rossi-300248066.html

RESEARCH TRIANGLE, N.C., April 7, 2016 /PRNewswire/ — We are aware of the lawsuit filed by Andrea Rossi and Leonardo Corporation against Industrial Heat. Industrial Heat rejects the claims in the suit. They are without merit and we are prepared to vigorously defend ourselves against this action. Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success. Leonardo Corporation and Mr. Rossi also have repeatedly breached their agreements. At the conclusion of these proceedings we are confident that the claims of Mr. Rossi and Leonardo Corporation will be rejected.

Industrial Heat continues to be focused on a scientifically rigorous approach that includes thorough, robust and accurate testing of promising LENR technologies. Our goal remains to deliver clean, safe and affordable energy.

So this is the first response to the lawsuit — we may be hearing a lot more back-and-forth as times goes on.

  • artefact

    I don’t thing we will see them together again…

    • Ged

      Such a sad parting of ways. Like the dour third act of a drama.

  • artefact

    Now I think I know what Rossi ment when he said that he does not want to play with our bones 🙂

  • Billy Jackson

    IH is caught with their pants down so far.. there is nothing here beyond standard corporate policy to deny. You wont hear much out of them from this point forward till the case is decided They win by stalling then reaching a i quiet out of court agreement.. Rossi having a signed copy of the independent report plus the reports of the other 2 that ran at the same time will simply eviscerate them in a court system.

  • Ged

    “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the
    results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without
    success.”

    That statement leaves a lot of legal wiggle room. What results exactly? The magnitude of the COP, or a positive COP at all? Other related results not dealing with COP? Which E-cat technologies? Are these replications being done in house by IH independent of Rossi? What about the 1 year test, why is that not referenced?

    So much vagueness.

    • Billy Jackson

      welcome to the US legal system and corporate politics. Its not about doing wrong its about being proven you done wrong. First rule.. admit nothing & deny everything.

    • Mats002

      ALL without success. Wow what a clash.

    • Frank Acland

      The word they use is ‘substantiate’ rather that ‘replicate’ — it has a broader meaning.

      • Ged

        Good point, Frank.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Substantiate would mean that they ran Rossi’s Lugano reactor (not a copy) on Rossi’s rig and proved it made energy at COP 6.

      • Axil Axil

        Does ‘substantiate’ mean that Rossi has not provided a theory for LENR that IH accepts as valid?

        • Anon2012_2014

          Substantiate:

          It means make the results into something of substance, i.e. real.

          To me this means that they (IH) validate that Rossi’s e-Cat rig works as claimed by Rossi.

          • Stephen Taylor

            To me it means they can’t do it without Rossi but when Rossi supplies the special sauce it works. Hopefully this can be the problem. If not, we’re scrooched.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Where is the reactor? Did IH touch it since the test concluded? Will it disappear? They can’t temper with the evidence now.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Good question. At COP 50 that thing is a gold mine. Seems like somebody would want it running.

  • Winebuff67

    Maybe they can’t get their knock off ecat to work even with the recipe he gave them

    • Buck

      IH made the Lugano reactor . . . it worked and caused the transmutation of isotopes as well as anomalous excess heat.

      • Michael W Wolf

        It was more like an ekitten. And they are pissed.

        • Buck

          Well . . . apparently IH is now saying the ekitten turned around and bit the hand that made it.

      • Anon2012_2014

        What if the transmutations cost 100x the energy in vs the energy produced. Like building a particle beam accelerator to create fusions. You can make fusion, but you lose energy into heat that cannot be recovered for anything useful.

        It’s interesting scientifically that we can do room temperature table top fusion. But it may be nothing more than a curiosity.

        • Buck

          You are simply being contrary and a pure waste of time.

  • Sanjeev

    The 3 year statement is strange, it should not take 3 years to know if something is fake.
    IH could have hired a competent scientist/engineer of their choice and could have ascertained that the E-Cat doesn’t work in 3 days.
    There was no need to wait for 1 whole year to know that, or to secure funds, pay $10 million for something that doesn’t work and to get $1000 per day from their “customer”.
    As usual, its fishy in lenr land. It will be an interesting battle.

    • Buck

      What was said and shown to Woodford to get them to invest about $60M?

      • artefact

        “I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe”. I’m sure Fabiani told IH everything he has seen. Also Darden will have seen much of it with his own eyes.
        “the results claimed by Mr. Rossi”: claimend does not sound like the correct word here.

        • Michael W Wolf

          The way the word the response seems they can’t duplicate the Rossi reactor. Or else they will have their own people claiming they are wrong.

          • US_Citizen71

            You don’t counter the company line in public and keep your job, so unless they are planning on leaving or get fired I wouldn’t expect a peep.

        • Obvious

          I wonder how much tech belongs to IH that Fabiani put together, since he was their employee.

    • LuFong

      Yes, the story from IH, as little as we’ve heard, doesn’t seem to add up.

    • Barbierir

      and Woodford claiming they had done their own due diligence before investing. Fishy is a nice understatement.

  • LuFong

    What a mess! I hope Rossi has the wherewithal to build and sell E-Cats in Europe, as he is claiming to have. We may have to smuggle import E-Cats in from Sweden to get them into the US for the next 10 years. .

    • Anon2012_2014

      “I hope Rossi has the wherewithal to build and sell E-Cats in Europe, as he is claiming”

      Sure. “Robot factory of 2012.” “Magnificence.” It never existed.

      I wish it was true too, but that doesn’t make it so.

      Rossi might have a working demo of the effect, but I don’t think he has a commercially realizable product. And now, he can’t get money as he burnt his references.

      • US_Citizen71

        He might have had it planned to to the last nit, but IH drug their feet and he needed the $89 million to start production. IH has been involved for quite awhile. I think Rossi has been counting on the money from IH to begin production since he got involved with them. But IH has been Lucy with the football until Rossi forced the issue.

        • Anon2012_2014

          “I think Rossi has been counting on the money from IH to begin production”

          Maybe, but as an outside observer, it looks more likely that the device has <<$89 mm of economic value.

          IH is a venture capital investor. Rossi failed the milestone. IH pulled the funding. VC101.

      • LuFong

        I always said to get from a working demo to a commercially realizable product would be a revolution in and of itself. I will also admit that Rossi is an optimist in this regard. I personally predicted well over a year ago it will take him 5-10 years to become commercial where anyone can just buy one. And no doubt Rossi is eccentric and probably impossible to work with.

        But I find it very difficult to believe that Rossi could generate 1MWh 24hrs/350 days fraudulently. We’ll see what IH says but right now the odds are in Rossi’s favor, IMO.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Rossi maybe hasn’t given Darden enough information to build a working reactor. Darden won’t pay Rossi until or unless he is able to build marketable products. I think the license agreement allows Darden to have this information. Rossi maybe doesn’t trust anyone to hold all his secrets. He signed the agreement but maybe is holding out an ingredient or two?

    So possibly this is a standoff over the intellectual property being turned over in full. The 1 MW plant may work great but IH wants the formula for products that work not to be dependent on Rossi to build them.

    Just speculation.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yea but if they had people with the reactor and I know of one that says he has seen magic. Then they can say they can’t verify because they can’t build it. The test was for the one Rossi built. So they must be implying they can’t duplicate it. And I am glad.

      • Stephen Taylor

        Yes, the complaint from IH’s point of view could be that they were sold the rights to be able to duplicate or build working reactors and, so far, Rossi isn’t giving them enough information. I think the license agreement says he should but I’m not sure. This is just the only way I can make sense of the problem and it allows that the 1MW reactor could work great but that’s not the problem. IH wants the formula and won’t pay up unless they get it.

        Just guessing here but it allows all of them and LENR to be OK when they get it sorted out. Wishful thinking while I wait some more.

        • Guest

          The contract states that after the $10M payment Rossi is to transfer all IP, fuel recipe, and know how required to make the products (page 24 of license agreement posted on sifferkoll, 2nd paragraph from bottom).

          While I agree this is the most positive interpretation of results, I hold out hope that this is the case.

          This interpretation does explain why IH would make the first 2 payments but withhold the 3rd (as that full knowledge transfer was supposed to occur after the 2nd payment).

    • Sanjeev

      If Rossi withheld the IP (or some critical part of it), then its a major breach of agreement and he has already lost the case. But I think he is not so stupid, the matter is something else.

      • pg

        IH is not saying they did not get the ecat IP to replicate the effect, but saying that it does not work. It is a completely different claim, and if they stick with it in their defense they might get slaughtered, or Rossi might face time (I don’t think this being the case).

    • Anon2012_2014

      But Darden had in his contract for $10 mm information rights sufficient to verify that the device actually works. I think it was never verified.

      • US_Citizen71

        The why sing Rossi’s praises last fall on Fortune?

  • US_Citizen71

    Hmmmmm…

    Tom Darden Fortune.com 9-27-2015:
    “Q: So you licensed the technology of Andrea Rossi, an Italian scientist and entrepreneur who’s been having some success with cold fusion.

    A: That’s right. Rossi’s was one of the first investments we made. We’ve been seeing the creation of isotopes and energy releases at relatively low temperatures—1,000 degrees centigrade, which could be a sign that fusion has occurred. We have sponsored tests and more research for Rossi’s work. A group of Swedish scientists tested the technology, and they got good results. A number of other people say they are also getting positive results but these haven’t been confirmed. A Russian scientist, for example claims to have replicated Rossi’s work in Switzerland and got excess heat. That’s a good sign.” – emphasis is mine

    http://fortune.com/2015/09/27/ceo-cherokee-investment-partners-low-energy-nuclear-reaction/

  • Hank Mills

    Their statement tells us very little. Andrea Rossi’s lawyers provided a lengthy multi-page long outline of the entire series of events that led to the filing of their complaint. IH has only provided a couple brief assertions, namely, that they can’t “substantiate” Rossi’s claims. If they really mean “replicate”, I would like details of their test setups and experiments. I find it odd that other labs on shoe string budgets with minimal manpower (Songsheng, Parkhomov, and others) can achieve massive excess heat repeatedly, but IH seemingly (although we don’t know if they have done a single replication test or not) cannot. They agreed on the ERV for the first test (in which they paid one and a half million to Rossi), the second test (in which they paid ten million), and the third test in which they are supposed to pay 89 million. If they don’t trust his judgement, why would they allow him to be used? They could have agreed with Rossi on another nuclear engineer: perhaps one as skeptical as Bob Park. And, if their two representatives monitored the entire test and witnessed the COP of 50 being achieved over the year long period, do they not trust them? Or maybe there is some other issue that we don’t know about that is reasonable enough to make them suspicious of the test results. But with so many people involved watching everything, I don’t know what it could be. A COP of 50 rules out any minor measurement issue. For goodness sakes, the electric bill of the customer would tell the tale: either it would show he saved a ton of money or his electric bills remained the same.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Check out the SCO lawsuit filings.

      The next detailed item is the “Answer” to the complaint that will be a 20 to 40 page rebuttal of each item in the Complaint due 21 days from the filing of the Complaint. It may also have counterclaims, for example, to recover the $11 mm paid Rossi.

      At that point, there will be a trial as there will be questions of fact that need to be adjudicated.

      Then there will be 6 months to 1 year of discovery where Rossi and IH each get to give each other all their emails, phone logs, etc… They will fight about what to hide from each other in front of the judge. There will be numerous postponements.

      About 3 years from now will be the trial if Rossi don’t run out of money. IH and Darden certainly will not.

      And at any time it could settle.

      In the interim, Rossi has now had his name publicly destroyed by his top customer. I don’t know if Rossi is rational, but if there was any way to avoid filing a lawsuit, it would have been to his advantage.

      It may actually be that Rossi has a working machine. He certainly has the next two years to prove it. But the fact that Industrial Heat has decided to cut their losses to the $11 mm payment conveys a lot of information to the outside world. Why do this if the machine works?

      • LilyLover

        Anti-logic comes very easy to you, doesn’t it?

  • Mats002

    Rossi, Penon, Fabiano and Levi (all italians?) scammed at least $11M from Cherokee and Woodford
    Or
    E-Cat works and we have another Defkalion story?

    • Michael W Wolf

      They can go to prison for that. If that was the case, they would have been long gone with that 11.5 mil.

    • Michael W Wolf

      And fabiani didn’t know Rossi. IH hired him and Fabiano said it took a while to understand how Rossi thought so that he could apply Rossi’s impossible engineering ideas into feasible engineering.

  • If the statement “all without success” is truthful why would they have invested 11 million dollars? Also, if the report was not successful why not release it for everyone to see? Its all very fishy.

    • Ged

      And as Buck reminds us below, IH techs built the Lugano reactor that tested positive (even after correcting possible errors), using Rossi’s guidance.

      The IH defense filing couldn’t come soon enough, as that’s where any real data, if they have it, will exist.

      • Billy Jackson

        As much as i want to stay out of conspiracy theory (and trust me its hard not to) … each of us feels betrayed by Cherokee which is why you see the whiplash of emotion and storm of mixed messages rage across the boards. We don’t yet have the whole story so stay strong and listen, lets keep our tempers in check.

        • Buck

          I think it to be more constructive to view it as Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” of common economic interests. It anchors our perceptions and judgment to the reality of human behavior. For example, it helps by pointing to an underlying cause of the “Great Recession” without needing to get into the details of who did what with whom.

        • Buck

          Here’s an ugly thought:

          Saudi Arabia is looking to fund their $2Trillion National Investment fund in 2017, taking ARAMCO public.

          Of course the low hanging question stands out: what is the impact of LENR on this IPO?

          • Sven Brus

            Not to mention Hinkley in UK

  • Stephen

    I hate to speculate about this but could it be that they decided to abandon E-Cat because they couldn’t get ownership of the IP for their financial or political backers. That could be a powerful lobby. Or perhaps decided to back competitors with a strong technology which they hope to own and now see e-cat as competing against that tech? I hope not as my former impression was that they were better than this. Perhaps there is something more subtle I am missing.

    • LilyLover

      They were not better than this.
      They dressed better to look like this.

      • Stephen

        Yup some ugly and ruthless people would say that’s just business… But I didn’t think that IH would be that type. I still can’t believe it really. I hope it wasn’t just a fancy dress.

        • LilyLover

          Dress their language, dress their intent and dress their boilerplate-ontract; physical dressing is secondary.

  • The story of cold fusion is a sure fire way to bring out the trolls and nere-do-wells as evidenced in quintessentially trollish commentary that is raging. More important it also brings out those with earnest and honest hearts.

    Of course the main points of ‘cold fusion’ are more about the promise and threat that this transformational technology delivers. On one hand had ‘cold fusion’ been accepted and developed starting more than 25years ago, today the world would be without the trials and tribulations of fossil fuels, millions of lives would have been saved, more whose health has been harmed by carbon emission taken care of, and the world would be one of hope not hostility as wars over oil would not be occurring.

    Similarly those gorging themselves at the global pork barrels of oil, high energy physics, and to a lesser degree the mere trillion dollar ‘climate change’ research field would need to have found a more peaceful and beneficial path for their lives! here’s another tidbit of history http://atom-ecology.russgeorge.net/2016/04/07/cold-fusion-historical-fueds-kowalski/

  • History will call the BS that IH is pulling right now with that statement.

    • Michael W Wolf

      It is like a guilty man pleading the fifth.

  • Now that the lawyers are involved we may get some documents published that will help us put together a narrative and understand better what’s happening, but we cannot trust a single word anybody says from here on out.

    Everybody is just going to either say nothing or say exactly what their lawyers or PR damage control firms tell them to say. The truth may be out there but it’s going to be harder and harder to find.

    Best case, Rossi proceeds to market post-haste and makes all this moot.

    • artefact

      Looking forward to June (if Rossi still wants to present the e-cat x in Juni)

      • Buck

        I’m certain he wants to . . . it is probably in the hands of his attorney to get the go-ahead.

      • I get the sense that we really don’t know what’s going on despite all our efforts to put things together. There are some pieces to this puzzle that are currently logically mutually exclusive.

        Meaning our frame of reference and assumptions are out of whack.

        The best explanation I have at the moment is that the USG entered the picture and is seeking to suppress the technology (it may feel it is too disruptive or a security risk or security advantage they want to exploit) and is doing so, step 1, by discrediting Rossi, which is low hanging fruit.

        If that’s the case then we will see some kind of resistance to Rossi’s move to market. Perhaps certification denials or regulation under nuclear fears. Something like that.

        • US_Citizen71

          Not to be one of those guys, but if the USG wanted control of it they would have taken control of it years ago. It is too public now with articles in Forbes and Fortune for one. They had the chance before the patent was approved to do some black bag work to make it all go away and it didn’t happen.

          • You attribute more competence to the USG than I do. They may not have believed COP over 1.2 was possible until recently.

          • US_Citizen71

            The government as a whole is not too awe inspiring but the intelligence arm is very good when the information is as easy as a Google search to find. Do you think that the words nuclear, fusion, neutron, radiation, nuclear reaction, etc… are not tracked and points of massive use and convergence on the web are not investigated? This site likely has a operative that checks in on it at least daily. Beyond that they have done their own research. If Rossi was felt as a threat he would either be working for them or not working at all.

          • SG

            I do wonder whether the USG has imposed secrecy orders on some of Mr. Rossi’s patent applications. According to Mr. Rossi, he has filed over a hundred patent applications. The license agreement specifically refers to quite a few that were pending all the way back in 2012. Yet only one has issued in the U.S. (that didn’t mention LENR by name), and very few others have yet surfaced. More should have been published by now. And yes, non-publication can be requested in the U.S. by the applicant, but not if you are filing a corresponding PCT (international) application, which Mr. Rossi is known to do.

          • US_Citizen71

            My guess is that they may have to do with naval propulsion. The clause stating no military sales in Italy makes me think that there is or was a deal with the Italian government for military applications and the low hanging fruit is definitely naval propulsion. The rest may be about to pop up on the radar any moment after beign delayed as long as possible.

  • Call them up and ask if they are going to release the E-cat ERV report.

    Cherokee Investment Partners  

    Investment Service

    Address: 111 E Hargett St, Raleigh, NC 27601

    Phone:(919) 743-2500

    • Michael W Wolf

      They breached the contract, they didn’t pay. Rossi can release it without penalty.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Well they didn’t pay and now have a suit against them and have to give us some real information in thirty days I think. Time for ambiguous statements is over. Did the plant work or not IH!? I don’t give two @[email protected]#S if you can’t duplicate it. It is going to be a long month for us. 🙁

  • Buck

    At this point of the story, I can only imagine that Woodford is angry and looking for answers from Darden. Especially if Darden presented that IH owned the IP.

  • Leave a message with Cherokee about the ERV report here:

    http://cherokeefund.com/contact/

    • Michael W Wolf

      No need. Rossi can release it. The NDA is officially void with the non payment. IH can say what they want about Rossi breaching, but as of now, they have breached and will have to prove in court that it was already breached to not have to pay the money. Where is that reactor IH? You can crumple up that report and stick it you know where, we’ll get it from Rossi.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    The net amount of energy (output – input) supplied by the Rossi reactor to the “industrial entity” that used the reactor for 350 days would be a telling factor in this dispute. Exactly which “industrial company” got the net reactor energy and what they used it for is another consideration. Were they a “valid user” of the energy or a shell facility?

  • cashmemorz

    Shows lack of due diligence on part of Industrial heat/Cherokee Funds in checking out Leonardo Corp E-Cat.

    • Sven Brus

      So let me get this straight –

      After testing the technology, IH gives Rossi +10 million dollars
      They then file their own patent in regards to the Rossi technology
      A customer pays 1000 dollars a day for the energy produced by a generator operating for 1 year

      Now they claim they can’t substantiate the claims made by Rossi so they withhold the 98 millions.

      Rossi have to sue Industrial Heat or other entities that is not Cherokee Investment Fund.

      One of IH’s employees that was allocated to Rossi recently said: ‘I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe’.

      Read for example this article:
      https://animpossibleinvention.com/2015/11/25/rossis-engineer-i-have-seen-things-you-people-wouldnt-believe/

      Being objective my conclusion is that things does not add up.

      Either way, Industrial Heat / Cherokee comes across as incompetent no matter how you look at it.

  • Michael W Wolf

    You know, I was thinking. If they have the reactor because they own it, they may want to take it apart and try and reverse engineer it while the court drags out. If they can reverse engineer it, they will just settle Rossi out of court. Would it be against the law for them to tamper with said evidence? If so Rossi should get his lawyer to have the court seize that reactor asap. It is evidence, right?

    • Rheulan

      I agree. What will happen to the 1MW plant that was at the customer´s facilities? Will IH seize it or abandon it, as they claim it doesn´t work?

  • Also someone explain to me why Industrial Heat refused to find a customer for the test. Then Rossi did. Then they paid $10M based on the word of Penon after 24 hours of testing.

    In what universe does that sequence of events make sense?

    • SG

      It is very curious. As if IH was dragging its feet on the deal from the beginning. But why?

      • In the scam scenario it’s usually the scammer who is delaying and dodging and hiding details. Here we have Rossi pushing things through to completion, accepting the final report and going public with a lawsuit.

      • Michael W Wolf

        See my comment below.

      • cashmemorz

        AS iHave commented and others also: some investor with viable investments “elsewhere” might be getting IH to slow down the progress in LENR

        • Anon2012_2014

          “Getting IH to slow down progress”. Conspiracy theory. I call nonsense. Rossi did not produce for IH, and IH is cutting their losses. Too bad it didn’t work out.

          • C. Kirk

            Tops your conspiracy theory….. Rossi, Focardi, Levi, Fabiani, etc, etc are all in on it I call nonsense!

      • US_Citizen71

        It is very strange. If their intentions were for ecological reasons they should have pushed Rossi to deliver and test ASAP not delay the test. Something just doesn’t feel right about it. Time will tell we still haven’t heard IH’s complete side of the story yet.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Why? Because IH demanded due diligence. The only way into Rossi, the public face of LENR at the time, was by making a deal. IH made a deal. They spent the money to find out that Rossi did not have the goods. If Rossi had the goods, they would have made 1000x. Now that they know Rossi doesn’t have the goods, they are cutting their losses.

        • SG

          And going with their own improved version based on their own patent filing, which names Mr. Rossi as a co-inventor?

          • Anon2012_2014

            You can file a patent for anything that doesn’t work. It may even be granted.

          • SG

            So, you think that IH filed a patent with knowledge that the invention did not work?

          • Anon2012_2014

            No idea.

          • SG

            If they did, then they would have committed fraud on the patent office.

          • Ged

            That would be an illegal move.

        • LilyLover

          one day delay in ECat >>$100M for oil-slickos.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Let’s break out the tin foil hats and revisit the Grassy Knoll. I don’t believe it.

          • LilyLover

            You are paid to disbelieve.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I wish…

  • Teemu Soilamo
    • SG

      Well, they haven’t claimed that quite yet (although they may yet do so). As I read their public statement, they are saying they couldn’t replicate the results themselves, and that Leonardo/Rossi breached the agreement in some way.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

        What is that if not a complete rejection of what Rossi claims to be true? It’s either COP of 50 or nothing. I can’t get behind the conspiracy that somehow, IH has been compromised. It’s too convoluted of an explanation. I would like to know why they tried to patent anything if it wasn’t working, though.

        • Ged

          And how they can make that statement after the 24 hour test they set up, and the Lugano reactor they built and had independently tested. I dunno, it all just makes no sense. They had constant updates on the reactor the whole time. I guess it depends on what “results claimed” means.

          • Anon2012_2014

            The 24 hour test could have combusted the nickel chamber with O2 from the air. It was never conclusive.

            The 350 day test at 1 MW would take a huge amount of fuel far beyond what was inside the combustion chamber, i.e. a continuous and large flow of natural gas or H2. Power in could be had from the power meter. Power out is computed from hot water flow and temperature increase. Fraud would be impossible on the power in without faking the meter. Fraud on the power out would require that the flow or temperature rise data was faked. That could be discovered in less than a few hours on the rig.

            My hope is that the test was not fraud and that there is incontrovertible proof of LENR at even COP of 1.5, even if there is no proof of a commercial product. We need to see the test to see if even that conclusion is possible.

          • Ged

            Agreed. The wind is still blowing every which way in this, we really can’t be sure what’s up till we get more data.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Why try to patent anything if it wasn’t working?

          IH had Insufficient information. The IH co-inventor was a real-estate investor. Only Rossi knew what he was writing.

          • Ged

            We should know for sure what they see once they file their defense. They could definitely play that card. But remember, when they got more investment money, such as from Woodford, they had to pitch and show that they had substantiated things, and IH constantly claimed such up till the end of this 1 year test. Woodford will take them to task if they claim they had “insufficient information”.

          • Anon2012_2014

            IH didn’t claim anything publicly other than they were working with Rossi.

          • Ged

            You have to claim something if people are going to give you millions of dollars, particularly when it’s a publicly traded fund. Doesn’t mean they had to tell the public, but they definitely told investors something convincing.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Me: “IH didn’t claim anything publicly other than they were working with Rossi.”

            Ged: “You have to claim something if people are going to give you millions of dollars, particularly when it’s a publicly traded fund.”

            IH is private and doesn’t have to claim or say anything in public. They are not to be confused with Woodford.

            Woodford Funds (there are two) only has to report their holdings. That information is public.

            Both companies are obligated to speak truthfully if they speak at all. But they don’t have to claim anything.

          • Anon2012_2014

            1) IH is private. They of course privately told their investors that LENR is a good bet but risky and that they would do due diligence each step with Rossi. They bet on Rossi and they were wrong. So what.
            2) Woodford doesn’t have to claim anything. They have Neil Woodford’s 25 year track record as a value investor and the money comes in. No one cares about their investment in Industrial Heat. It’s too small to matter if it fails.

          • Ged

            1) Three years and a 1 year test are more than enough time to figure things out. There’s a difference between being defrauded and a product just not making it in the market. A defraud is not a “so what”, it’s a criminal case.

            2) 50 or so million is not small. It’s nearly 2.5-3% from each of both the sections of the fund. It’s not to small to matter to people who put their money on the line. IH would have known this was a fraud long before Woodford invested. They already had the 24 hours, the Lugano, and awhile of the 1 year test worth of data under their belt. There is no excuse.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think we are jumping way ahead. We don’t know what IH knew and when.

            It looks to me like Darden is a sober investor and took a calculated risk by investing in Rossi subject to certain milestones. I believe that Woodford came into the Industrial Heat investment around the time the test started. My judgement (i.e. estimate) is that there is no way Darden would have intentionally defrauded Woodford.

            But you bring up a good point: that IH must have thought they had validation when they brought Woodford in after completing the original Lugano test and were doing this more thorough 1 year validation. This would seem to contradict their statement that they had worked for 3 years to substantiate the results claimed by Rossi without success.

          • SG

            I don’t think Mr. Rossi was involved in the IH patent filing. If you look at the complaint, Mr. Rossi is saying that IH went off and did this, and it has upset Rossi (paraphrasing heavily of course).

        • pg

          Maybe because it actually does work, but now Rossi has developed a new machine that makes the one in their possession already obsolete, and they do not want to pay for it.

          • SG

            But all of Mr. Rossi’s and Leonardo’s improved versions for the e-Cat are within the scope of the license agreement. This probably isn’t the motive.

          • Stephen Taylor

            The license agreement says they get all the updates and new versions.

        • SG

          I’m not sure how their statement squares with the ERV report and their own filing of a patent. Those are things that will likely have to come to light during the litigation.

        • NT

          Yep, sounds like a complete rejection of Rossi’s device to me. Now I assume they will not need or want to have the allotted territories and those revert back to LC and Rossi?

        • Anon2012_2014

          350 day test: The unsubstantiated results might have been COP >6 when the actual test had COP of 1.5 or 2. The unsubstantiated results might have been that the device is stable and working product, but the substantiated result might have been it only works when Rossi dials up numbers and then for only short bursts.

    • Michael W Wolf

      No you don’t. But I know you will hate being wrong. IH is acting like the scammers here. Who is not saying anything? who is dragging their feet? Who did not file a suit of fraud? who screws people out of their money? IH is behaving like scammers. When have you seen a corp rip off an inventor? when have you seen an inventor rip off a billion dollar corp? IH comments will turn out to be as false as your comment. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. You call it a horse.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Are you saying I would hate free energy for all because of my ego? Quite the accusation, sir.

        • pg

          nobody is accusing you of that, we are just saying that you should not worry about being right about your theory. When you move the debate on something unrelated like ego and free energy hate, you do not come off very well.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            No, I think he just did. Are you saying IH are not accusing Rossi of fraud, then?

          • pg

            No, Ijust say you should not be concerned about being right about your theories just yet, or to accuse people of unrelated matters.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Well, you know we LOVE to idly speculate here at E-Cat World. How else could we have survived the past five years?

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well I am sorry teemu if I misjudged you. But the statement of being right all along is a little premature if you read IH’s statement a little more carefully.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Can you elaborate? It’s a characteristically bland piece of writing, but I don’t think it leaves much to the imagination.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I am saying they are being very careful in not saying the reactor didn’t work. Stop playing with words and tell us did the GD thing work or not. They just said they could not verify Rossi’s claims which is so general it could mean many things. Those who believe will take it one way, those who don’t will take it another way. You see that is what lying lawyers do, not honest men.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Maybe. Because all you want to see is Rossi a fraud. When I read it as a hopeful observer, I see where Rossi is the victim here. Read the IH release again. It does not say the reactor doesn’t work. It is full of conman lawyer speak. If you hated being right, then you wouldn’t have called it like you did. I don’t know that you hate free energy, maybe you just don’t believe it can be real.

          Remember when Clinton said it depends on what the word is, is. Or I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Monica lewinski. Like he was talking to Monica instead of America, making what he said technically not a lie. Lawyer speak, that is what I see, and if you hated being right, you would see that too.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Well, perhaps we are different, but for me claiming to have world-changing technology doesn’t exactly give Rossi the benefit of the doubt. The onus is on him now to prove that the thing works. I will say that his actions as of late do not fit the actions of a fraudster, making the whole case all the more baffling.

          • Philip James

            Agreed completely.

  • Curbina

    I did not expect anything less from IH in terms of a complete denial of the charges. Let’s see what they come up with in the courts.

    • deleo77

      I don’t know how Penon could have measured a COP of 50 and have that be disputable. Measurement errors and poor setup can only take you so far. A COP of 2 or 3 sure, but 50? How does someone screw up a one year test that much? It’s just an obvious result.

      So the only implication I can see out of IH’s statement is outright fraud by Rossi. Somehow Rossi fooled Penon, or they were in on it together. If it is fraud, why would Rossi sue them first and expose himself to what could ultimately lead to a criminal fraud case? Why would he not just run and keep the money he has received to date? Would he have the nerve to go for more $ knowing he will have to prove his case in front of a judge. If it is a fraud and Rossi knows it, then he is opening himself up to perjury in court. Some have suggested he may be looking for an out of court settlement with IH paying Rossi some “go away” money. This whole thing is really bizarre.

      • Michael W Wolf

        They didn’t dispute the reactor. Read it again.

        • NT

          C’mon Michael, this is pretty clear to me at least…
          “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

          • US_Citizen71

            But which results? And claimed when? Could they be trying to get direct electrical production but can’t get it to work? Their statement is nothing but lawyer and PR speak. We need to wait for their court filing to know more.

          • Andrew

            maybe they’re refuting the cold fusion “claim” but not the excess heat? I tend to agree with the lawyer lingo on this one.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Right, worked. They just had to watch the reactor. Worked to me means building one themselves that worked as Rossi claimed. CMON NT Can’t they just be honest and say the reactor didn’t work? Why the ambiguous lawyer conman speak.

          • NT

            You have a good point, but then few have been able to replicate from Rossi’s patent information either. IH needs Rossi if they ditch him then they are giviving up all their territorial licenses also – right?

          • NT

            I thought IH were the ones that built the Lugano test device which by some measure’s worked…

          • Teemu Soilamo

            And, moreover, wouldn’t they be surprised to see a high COP come out of the devices THEY built, but cannot themselves get any excess heat out of??

  • Pixelblot

    “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.” That part confuses me as the reports strongly indicate positive results. Maybe the true meaning comes out if you replace “substantiate” with “replicate/reproduce”.

  • LilyLover

    Somebody already stated this, merely expanding:
    A curious point – how did Darden convince Woodford to invest? By what did Woodford get convinced? If the answer is nothing, doesn’t it mean that neither investment funds have any competency, work ethic or even basic care of pretense before selling / buying with public money.
    Did they just get together and spend 200k at the local str!p club, while supposedly engaged in serious business dealings?
    Way to go IH, improving World bringing cheap energy!!

    • Ged

      Also, Woodford very strongly stated they did their due diligence. So, there’s something much more to this story, if only on that axis of matters.

      • wpj

        Yes, they said 2 years of due diligence.

    • Teemu Soilamo

      xD

      Well, i guess that’s one way to rationalize. We are conditioned to take everything that paints Rossi in a negative light with a massive bucket of salt.

      • Buck

        You skip over an important point . . . . what information preceded and directly led to the positive judgment on Rossi’s E-Cat efforts? What is the basis for our “conditioning”? Was it a rigorous evaluation or was it a sophomoric suspension of disbelief?

        • Michael W Wolf

          1000 replications over 27 years +, you just can’t keep calling people frauds without proof. It is a world changing, very difficult technology to get a hold of. They deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven frauds. Sophomoric? what are you an expert that has proven it wrong? Liar liar pants on fire sounds pretty sophomoric to me.

          • Buck

            Michael,

            I have not communicated my point clearly.

            It is because of all the preceding evidence in support of LENR and Rossi’s multiple independent tests, that I see my support of Rossi as a good thing and the result of reasonable judgment.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Yea, sorry about that Buck.

          • Buck

            not a problem. I think we all recognize the energy is running a bit high after IH’s strange message.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Slimy message. lol

        • Michael W Wolf

          Another thing, you skeptics kept saying no patent, not valid. Then the man gets a patent and you say anybody can get a patent. How can anyone have a chance against this rigged circular reasoning? Also sophomoric. At least our semi blind faith has a world changing happy ending. So go to your echo chambers and you can all quack how lenr is impossible. Pat yourselves on the back and ignore the problems the world has. But at least you hate being right.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            And terrorists believe that they go to heaven, but that doesn’t make their beliefs true – nor morally laudable.

            Anybody CAN get a patent. They’re not checked for validity, only for violation of other patents. It is not circular reasoning.

        • Teemu Soilamo

          “To be revealed in the next episode”.

    • sam

      Good Point.

  • Keet Claw C

    If IH suspect fraud why don’t they counter sue for their investment back.

    • e-dog

      Roosi spent it already on building and running his ecat box for a year… and tennis club memberships and florida property and stuff

      • Andrew

        sorry,bit doesn’t work that way. They could easily counter sue for their money back and bankrupt Leo Corp. I’m still siding with publicity stunt. Stuff doesn’t add up.

  • e-dog

    “Things do not add up” totally agree. Lets go to court!!
    get to the bottom of all this talk and see the facts…

    Is LENR real? roosi justified.
    Is roosi a sham? no LENR..

    I really would like to know after all these years!

  • Stephen

    I wonder if APCO are still involved with releasing IH statements? Did this one originally come from them or directly from IH. It seems similar to the one from JT Vaughn at the end of this article.

    http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2016/04/scientist-sues-raleigh-cold-fusion-startup.html

    • Winebuff67

      Sounds like they are just going to try and steal it instead of pay for it. And we’ll get more bs from IH

  • LilyLover

    Woodford has said “this” technology and in addition “some other technologies”. You can lawyer the words but cannot change history.

  • Buck

    Without knowing more in this bizarre turn of events, I am left with a poor perception of Darden and IH. What could have possibly caused such extreme change in the situation?

    Here’s an ugly scenario:

    Saudi Arabia is looking to fund their $2Trillion National Investment fund in 2017, taking ARAMCO public.

    Of course the low hanging question stands out: what is the impact of LENR on this IPO?

    In a Hollywood Movie, a percentage of $2Trillion is a very large contract and incentive to mitigate the obstacles and maximize the IPO.

    Who is going to play the hero? Darden or Rossi?

    Where’s Jack Reacher?

  • LilyLover

    Let’s not. We are above that. Perhaps his kid’s lives were on the line?
    Dr. Rossi will succeed. So, let’s not waste our whispers on the coward.
    Let’s celebrate after $100M award and ECatX produced with ABB.

  • Andrew

    Obviously IH thinks Rossi cheated in the testing. If they would have searched him every time he entered the Ecat container they would have found all the 9v batteries he was sneaking in to get over unity.

    • Obvious

      (just to be a goof)
      A 9V battery is enough to fool 105 thermocouples into thinking they are reading something very hot, no problem.

  • James Rice

    The problem for Rossi is that his US patent is assigned to IH (that is, IH owns it), and his european patent application’s assignee, if it’s ever granted, is IH. And now there are lawsuits entangling said patents/patent applications. So it will probably be hard to raise money to build ecats with the I.P. ownership in question.

    MFMP just became hugely more important if we want timely implementation of LENR. Get going, guys!!

    • SG

      This is incorrect. Leonardo owns the granted U.S. patent (http://assignment.uspto.gov/#/search?q=9115913&sort=patAssignorEarliestExDate%20desc%2C%20id%20desc&synonyms=false) and other IP developed by Mr. Rossi.

      • NT

        I believe he is basically referring to latest IH international patent application and is a bit confused…

        • SG

          Yeah, I know. I’ve seen this confusion permeate these threads and try to address it when I can. I think it is important that we have the most accurate information possible among the ECW community. We are the ones that will take the knowledge of LENR to the world. And when we do so, it is good to understand the ins and outs of how we got here. Another common misunderstanding around here is the difference between a license and an outright transfer (assignment) of ownership.

      • James Rice

        You are absolutely right. Sorry.

    • Michael W Wolf

      There wasn’t a court filing when the test ended. 5 days from that point IH breached the contract by not paying. Rossi by default got all those rights back at that moment. Rossi filed the complaint with all the IP rightfully his. Only a verdict against him can take that away. It doesn’t get put on hold unless IH filed while they owed the rights. But since they didn’t pay is the cause of the lawsuit, the 1mw plant reverts back to Rossi too I think. Everything gets reset to the way it was before they signed. Other less obvious disputes need court verdicts. I think IH lost everything when they didn’t pay. And not file the breach against Rossi first is not only incriminating, it was a mistake.

      • NT

        Well said Michael…

      • Ophelia Rump

        ” Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

        This is curious.

        • deleo77

          I think a comment as simple as this one could really expose Darden to his investors. Yes, there are safe harbor statements. But think if you are a cash investor in IH, Cherokee or Woodford and you read this statement? I think there could be a lawsuit there. Didn’t Darden say he invested in Rossi based on the results of the Lugano report? And now he is saying he never substantiated Rossi’s claims? Darden is totally contradicting himself. And yet he raised tens of millions of dollars for this venture. I believe Woodford has some UK pension money in it. People are going to ask questions.

          • NT

            You betcha, and there are a few of our commenter’s here that said, in the recent past, they had invested in Woodford for this reason. I wish for them to now come forward and tell us what they think of this mess…

          • Michael W Wolf

            yea.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Yea, Only the period of the contract is relevant. I mean if they want to bring up pre contract, maybe they should answer to their investors why they pissed away money before they knew. You know what a judge will say when they say your honor, we have been trying for three years…. the gavel will go down an the judge will say what happened outside the scope of the contract is irrelevant, did the reactor work or not? Your own people claim it had a COP of 50, please explain this and not ancient history.

          • Brent Buckner

            It’s not pre-contract, the contract is dated October 26, 2012.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Sorry I thought it was 2014? I guess it would be very relevant. lol

          • Michael W Wolf

            wow yea, and they still gave money to Rossi. crazy. When was Lagano? they say that wasn’t substantiated now? How did they get investors if they say it wasn’t substantiated then?

        • NT

          Indeed, they are risking billions to be lost by these tactics, IMHO. Should have just paid the fee and moved on making LOTS of money for their investors…

      • Philip James

        Legally correct.

    • Stephen

      What MFMP do is hugely important, In more ways than we know I think.

      These kinds of situations show why independent verifications and replications, independence from finance and pressure groups, Live Open Science, and open discussion and broad publicity are needed so much in the LENR field.

      • NT

        Here, here on that moral statement Stephen – Go for it MFMP…

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Okay, how about this for a pickle: IH built the Lugano reactor, and the Professors claimed it had a COP of ~3. The implications of what happened or didn’t happen after don’t make any sense EITHER WAY!

    • Michael W Wolf

      IH can’t build the reactor without Rossi, not the high COP reactor. I maintain this is IH’s reason to not pay. Their ambiguous statement only supports what I have been saying. Their statement specifically did not clear that up. That is not accidental. You must admit, all they had to say is the 1mw unit didn’t work. And you would have been sad to be right. 🙂 But they didn’t and you should not feel sad to be right. It is very clear to me they deliberately avoided the easiest answer they could give.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        It’s a political statement, they’re supposed to be obtuse. I guess we will later find out why…

  • Bother.

    • Obvious

      Indeed.

  • Fibber McGourlickf

    “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”
    Despite all the chatter, I can’t get past this declaration by IH. Despite what we outsiders think has happened, It’s meaning is clear. I.H. is saying all their efforts to prove the reactor works have failed. Now that doesn’t equate with what we’ve been told about the 350 test, among other things, so proof of Rossi’s success is strictly a wait-and-see proposition. I’ll check back when there’s some real clarification.

    • SG

      Yes, the statement can’t be squared with the information that is in the public domain over the past three years. We will have to wait and see how IH responds to the lawsuit. Because, any statements made there must be true, or there are serious consequences.

    • Michael W Wolf

      No man, they did not say one word about the reactor. They are not talking about the reactor in their statement or else they would have said that. The reactor has been working for one year, so they are referring to the work they did like the Lagano reactor they built, it worked but not like Rossi told them it would. They continued trying and have yet to build a reactor that worked like Rossi’s 1mw reactor. Maybe Rossi worded things in such a way they thought they would be able to build a COP 50 reactor but Rossi may not feel he told them exactly that. Maybe Rossi worded things like they did in their press release. But they said nothing of the 1mw reactor. My guess is they don’t want to say the 1mw reactor worked but we can’t replicate it like Rosii said we could. If they said that we would say, so what, we have a lenr reactor now.

      • Fyodor

        It is pretty clear that the Cherokee press release from a few weeks ago was laying the groundwork for this split or in anticipation of it.

        I read it as a hedging statement at the time and was confounded by the fact that so many people here bent themselves into pretzels to read it as a specific endorsement of Rossi and his work.

        • Teemu Soilamo

          This is the true ‘Rossi effect’ – the ability to believe the impossible.

          • Michael W Wolf

            You mean like the establishment and skeptics have bent themselves into pretzels denying that the thousands of replications can’t possibly be right and they are all frauds or idiots? Please. Tell me where they have said one word about the 1mw reactor? But you are sad you are right. Gees.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            It was just a bit of humour, sheesh.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Oh your happy now? sheesh

          • Teemu Soilamo

            What are you talking about?

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well you said you hated being right. Seems to me you are reveling in it and are absolutely unjustified in your claim that IH said the 1mw reactor didn’t work.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            What has humour got to do with it? Oh, are you someone that generally views people’s statements as a means to affect others people’s perceptions of their social status?

          • Michael W Wolf

            You want to change the subject now? Go ahead, you can say it. IH did not mention the 1mw reactor, see that was easy. Now tell me you didn’t think they were talking about the reactor when you first read it.

          • Michael W Wolf

            See how easy your were to manipulate? Because you wanted it to be so. No different then what you mock supporters for.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            I still think they’re talking about the reactor. Or the E-Cat tech more broadly, of which the reactor is a subset.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I guess that is reasonable man. But there must be a reason they didn’t just say it. I mean. It is all they need to show Breach of contract. I think they are playing with technicalities and that bodes well for the reactor.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Oh, I’m sure there is a reason. We just don’t know what it is yet. Fear the worst, hope for the best?

          • Michael W Wolf

            You already know how I feel. Neverrrr! lol

          • Michael W Wolf

            and one more thing. The contract covers 1 year. For them to talk about three years is not only irrelevant but suspicious. I mean, the contract is all the suit is over. The judge will shut them down if they try bringing up pre-contract grievances. Very unprofessional and suspicious.

          • Brent Buckner

            The contract (as amended) covers more than a year. The contract is dated 2012 and the period of Guaranteed Performance only just ended.

          • NT

            I kinda liked the “pretzels” thingee…

          • Michael W Wolf

            Clean, cheap, safe alternative energy is impossible? You really think what we have is the be all end all of energy production? And you guys believing a multiverse is possible? You have the gull to mock us? At least cern was able to convince themselves that we do not live in a multiverse. You read about that yet? Or are you just an expert at denying LENR?

          • Off topic Michael, where can we read about CERN disproving a multiverse?

          • Michael W Wolf

            Not disproving but convincing themselves. The higgs bison footprint. It was said if it was 115 gev, it means we live in a single universe, if it was 145 gev there are multiple universes. Well they pinned it down at 126.2 gev I think or in that area within a couple of tenths. Some said we are somewhere between a single universe reality and a multi verse reality, which is completely crazy. But many admitted we are likely part of a single universe. Now to google it is crazy the amount of articles. youtube isn’t much better. But I found a video that can get you started. It is really amazing stuff, not that I buy into all of it, you guys know how I feel about establishment claims, but still they do help us learn about the nature of particles. So I keep an open mind about it because there is good science among all the conjecture. Anyway here is a video to get you started. You can bury yourself for a years in this stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQSS1U2O-oQ There are so many I can’t even find the videos that say I already viewed it, and I viewed and read quite a few articles. Anyway, the one I was talking about was the cern people themselves having a two day event for many scientist to listen to the lectures and this discovery. But this video nails the heart of there announcement without sitting through the whole of lectures on the subject.

          • cashmemorz

            From all the coincidences that keep cropping up in the study of the cosms, such as the Goldilocks theory of why life exists in a particular set of environmental mixes, the outcome of all this is that nature seems to conspires to make the whole subject evenly dividing as to what is basically an opinion no more no less.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Ah, that is alright. That is how we learn. It is when opinion is passed on as fact that hurts us. We are all guilty of it sometimes. It’s the people with authority that won’t admit it isn’t quite a fact yet, but insist it is that burns me up. And I am sure there are many more variations that can allow for life that we are completely unaware of. It might not be the razor we think it is.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Why are you projecting all these caricatures on me? I’m a complicated person with conflicting thoughts. Also, I enjoy long walks on the beach.

          • NT

            Your then human like all of us and enjoy the beach myself before all the human trash washes up anyway…

          • Michael W Wolf

            Because you act as if believing in the impossible is a flaw. Believing in the impossible is the virtue. Believing things are impossible is what shuts down your mind. At one time flight was impossible. For you to insult people for believing in what you think is impossible is the problem with the world and I am sick of hearing such frontier killing mentality. You happen to be the one insulting and mocking and reveling. Those are not virtues man. You should think about that on one of your walks.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Well, ‘man’, you act as if I have insulted your religion or something. You should grow a thicker skin. 🙂

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            If Ih asserts that Rossi’s technnology is inferior, then now is
            time for Rossi to negotiate his way back into the driver’s seat. IH cannot have it both ways….claiming that the e-Cat is worthless, yet claiming that it is entitled to the marketing & production rights.

          • Heath

            Let’s wait until we see both sides. We are seeing a lot of history that we weren’t privy to. And as you may recall the wait on this info has been frustrating for years to us all.

          • bfast

            If I read IH right, they simply say that the e-cat doesn’t work — not that it is somehow inferior to something else. Their agreement with Rossi was for the run to produce a minimum COP of 6. Rossi says it blew the doors off 6, they seem to say it didn’t. Either it did or it didn’t. Either IH or Rossi is feeding us the brown stuff.

            When IH says, “Industrial Heat continues to be focused on a scientifically rigorous approach that includes thorough, robust and accurate testing of promising LENR technologies” they seem to be implying that the tests done on the e-cat were not “robust and accurate”. This smells brown to me. They were partner in the testing, why it would somehow not be “robust and accurate” is beyond me.

            My vote is that IH is the one feeding us the brown stuff. ‘Just hope Rossi can survive their shenanigans.

          • US_Citizen71

            Yes IH seems to be treating the world like mushrooms.

          • sam

            I think you are right Iggy.
            But Rossi is from the old
            school of business where
            if you agree to a deal you
            stick to it.
            So it might not happen.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Building a supposedly working nuclear reactor (Lugano) is not “all without success”, even if no COP of over 9000. No amount of semantics can twist that. The press release clearly makes it sound like there was no Rossi effect at all.

      • Jag Kaurah

        Agree Michael,

        What the IH statement is saying is
        “we cannot substantiate – read replicate/reproduce on our own what you Rossi are able to do and show. so you have not told us your complete method, you have held on to some secrets, by that you have breach your agreement to tell us everything”

        The IH statement is clear – E-cat is a success and we will fight over it

        • NT

          Be interesting if they say anything close to that in their legal court response – more suspense as the saga continues…

  • Dr. Mike

    The IH statement just doesn’t make sense. How could they claim that they have not been able to substantiate Rossi’s claims, but have been filing their own patents and raising money based on the information Rossi has given them? If the 350 day test report is accepted by the scientific community, I don’t see how they wouldn’t be responsible for the remaining $89M that they owe Rossi.

    • Michael W Wolf

      They are absolutely not talking about the 1mw reactor. Or else they would have said it.

      • Obvious

        I bet IH people are talking about their 1 MW reactor right now, privately.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Well they are in breach as they didn’t pay and let that 5 days run out. The reactor is now Rossi’s imo. They should have filed a lawsuit before they breached the contract to prevent all rights from being released back to Rossi.

          • Obvious

            The IP might not be theirs (or at least some of it due to Fabiani’s work), but the reactor was paid for in full, as per the contract.

          • US_Citizen71

            They bought one for 1.5 million read the license agreement. I’m not sure it is the one tested.

          • Obvious

            He was to build supply a plant, then use it for the 350 day validation as soon as IH found somewhere to put it. (It may have been the old plant, fixed up.)

          • NT

            So it sits still working on Rossi’s board member’s business premises still in possession of said business – so who really owns it as of now and is getting paid for the power it generates?

          • Obvious

            The reactor was considered to be paid in full upon payment of the first $1,500,00. (3.2a, underlined even).
            To me, that means that IH owns it.
            The only reason allowed for a refund is if the Validation was not achieved in a 350 day period out of 400 days, or it was not delivered. We know it was delivered.

    • Guru Khalsa

      One thing I never understood is why Rossi had to be in the container 16 hours a day. Did the 1MW plant not work if Rossi did not show up for work? I think Rossi held something back and the plant had a COP of 50 but only works for Rossi. How is that possible?

      • Michael W Wolf

        He wasn’t in there the whole time. He was just present all the time. But he obviously knew if something went wrong only he was guaranteed to be able to fix it. As he did not divulge everything. He did much work on improving what he had and I believe it as Faviani has supported that claim and Falviani worked for IH not Rossi.

        • Guru Khalsa

          I guess for $89 million I’d be there 24/7 also.

        • Brent Buckner

          If you posit that “he did not divulge everything” I think you posit that he was in breach of the License Agreement.

      • Dr. Mike

        I thought Rossi should have been working on improving the process and devices rather than seeing that his 1 MW plant keep running, at least until I read the agreement and found that $89M was on the line. The advancement of LENR probably suffered a few months delay- well worth it for $89M! If Rossi had let everyone know that a good deal of money was on the line for a successful 350 day test, no one would have questioned his decision to spend so much time on the 1 MW plant.

  • Matt Sevrens

    If Rossi’s claims are false why is IH still pursuing LENR?

  • Matt Sevrens

    LENR just got set back 10 years. If it’s real at all.

    • SG

      I feel exactly the opposite. I think this turn of events will accelerate LENR information into the public domain.

  • Wishful Thinking Energy

    I think this post from “Guest” on another thread sums it up best:
    “I think IH’s comment reveals where this is going. As part of the License Agreement Rossi was to have transferred all IP, know how, and fuel recipe to IH after the payment of $10M.

    IH is essentially saying that Rossi has not transferred the know how and that they can’t replicate.

    This is their grounds for not paying. They don’t accuse Rossi of fraud, they don’t out and out say that the thing doesn’t work, just that they can’t substantiate (i.e. replicate the results). One possible explanation is that the results aren’t real, but the other is just that he’s held something back.”

    Add to that this statement by Fabiani from Mats Lewan’s interview:
    “Rossi is the head and runs the R&D. I’m his right arm, his left arm and his legs too. We have staff, technicians who help us. Only R&D has about 12 people with me included. I’m the link between Rossi and the others for everything that regards R&D. I don’t have knowledge on the reaction because the formula is not my concern. When it is time, Rossi makes his mixtures according to his formulas, puts the charge in the cores and gives me the complete cores. A reactor is composed of a core, an excitation system, and a system for heat exchange. I look after the excitation system and the system for heat exchange, and also the physical realization of the core. But the core must be filled with the mixture of powders that Rossi from time to time recalibrates in function of the effect that he wants to achieve.”

    It appears that Rossi has always mixed and supplied the powders and likely never transferred that knowledge to IH. IH has likely refused to pay until he transfers that knowledge and Rossi likely has refused to transfer the knowledge until they pay. A stalemate.

    • Teemu Soilamo

      sub·stan·ti·ate

      verb

      provide evidence to support or prove the truth of.

      Curious, it doesn’t mention the word “replicate” anywhere.

      • Wishful Thinking Energy

        If you have something that seems impossible, and you measure that it is doing impossible things, but you can’t replicate it, would you consider it substantiated?

        • Teemu Soilamo

          If the measurement can be trusted, yes.

          And what about the Lugano reactor? Why isn’t anybody talking about the Lugano reactor? IH made that without any involvement by Rossi, correct? Someone dig up that quote.

          • Wishful Thinking Energy

            Didn’t Rossi still supply the powder for that though?

          • Teemu Soilamo

            So the scam is in the powder?

          • Wishful Thinking Energy

            The IP is in the powder.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Tomato, tomata. The suspense is killing me.

          • Stephen

            Why do I always think of Kungfu Panda when people talk about secret ingredients 😉 ?

            I think the ingredients are likely all there in this noodle soup. It just the preparation recepie by those skilled in the art they haven’t understood maybe. Maybe MFMP are close though.

          • Michael W Wolf

            No, they only got cores that worked. according to their own employee. Nothing on this planet can keep those cores putting out 50 COP. What tech do you know about that the world does not? Sounds to me like Rossi didn’t give them anything but reactor cores that worked. According to IH’s top engineer. We are back to IH being salty over not having the secret sauce. and will tell the court they can’t substantiate until they have the recipe for the core. But why did they tell their investors it was substantiated?

          • NT

            “But why did they tell their investors it was substantiated?” Good question – any investors out there care to comment?

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Found it! IH made the powder, too:

            Dear Andrea,

            Can you tell us:

            1. Who made the reactor that was used in the Lugano report?

            2. Who prepared the powder that was used in the reactor?

            3. What your role was (if any) in preparing the above items?

            Many thanks,

            Frank Acland

            Andrea Rossi

            November 10th, 2014 at 7:05 PM

            Frank Acland:

            1- The reactor that has been used in the Lugano test has been manufactured in the factory of Industrial Heat, in Raleigh, North Carolina.

            2- The charge has been prepared by Industrial Heat, as all the charges are now, obviously upon the instructions I delivered with the know how.

            3- I had no role in the preparation of the reactor and of the charges, because I trust my magnificent Team. After months of rehearsing, under my direction, the Team of IH is able to manufacture everything without my help. For example, the 1 MW for the Customer of IH has been completely manufactured by them. The reactor used in Lugano is just one out of many of them manufactured in the factory of IH by their workers, directed by their engineers. The charges are made by the top level persons that have access to them.

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

          • Wishful Thinking Energy

            I stand corrected!

          • NT

            Yep, that says a lot, but playing the devils advocate – IH will say it is all part of Rossi say’s lingo. Where is the proof he turned over the IP for the manufacturing to IH, for the manufacture of the Lugano reactor? Lets hope that Rossi has the goods on that question for the court?

          • Teemu Soilamo

            On the other hand, I’m sure that IH were/are monitoring Rossi’s comments on the JoNP very closely. If he got caught in such a gargantuan lie, don’t you think there would have been ramifications? And what does the lack thereof tell you?

          • NT

            Yep, big time now…

          • Michael W Wolf

            oic so don’t sue Rossi then, wait for the test to start and then the full year of the test and just screw him out of his money? That makes sense to you? Why would they try to get their money back asap?

          • Teemu Soilamo

            No, it doesn’t make sense to me. That’s why I posted it. 😛

          • Teemu Soilamo

            No, it doesn’t make sense to me.

          • Guru Khalsa

            Wiggle room or is it just me. Didn’t the Lugano reactor only have a COP of 4. What is relevant is who prepared the powder for the reactor that had a cop of 50, regardless of who is preparing the powder today.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            It is relevant to whether or not IH were able to achieve “results” at all, which is of interest, at least to us. The press release does not mention magnitude.

          • Guru Khalsa

            Can’t wait for the ERV report.

          • NT

            Rossi prepared all the powders in the 1MW plant according to Fabiani’s statement just above these comments…

          • Guru Khalsa

            And when the 1 MW plant was resupplied with new powder at the end of the test did the new powder have the secret sauce or something that gives a COP of 4. If the 1 MW plant is still achieving COP 50 IH can just stop the reaction and analyze the powder, if they feel Rossi has withheld something.

          • NT

            The 1 MW plant is now a part of the legal system as evidence. The court will properly want to see and monitor it so we will see what that outcome is and perhaps LENR will be proved to the world at that point…

          • US_Citizen71

            Could be the point. So let’s say the court is monitoring it the plant,will they collect data?

          • SG

            It will all be based on the testimony of those involved and perhaps some additional expert witnesses hired by each party in the dispute.

          • NT

            The court will likely appoint and outside professional consultant to monitor and report, IMHO…

          • Michael W Wolf

            Lagano reactor didn’t have the same sauce. IH wants the sauce that was in the 1mw reactor. and again explains why they don’t say a word about the 1mw reactor.

          • Michael W Wolf

            But that was an e kitten compared to Rossi’s. And IH told their investors it was substantiated to get that money out of them.

        • deleo77

          That’s why the judge could ask for a court room demonstration. Wouldn’t that be a spectacle.

          • NT

            Or a very close inspection of the supposedly still running 1MW reactor…

    • Guru Khalsa

      So at the end of the year long test and Rossi reloaded the reactor with new powder did he load it with the secret sauce or with something that doesn’t work?

      • Kip Travall

        You are spot on here Bob!!! I wish we could sticky this post as it really does accurately assess the current situation as we know it. Excellent info Bob!!

  • Matt Sevrens

    If Rossi has been outright lying to us about his relationship with Industrial Heat over the last few weeks, how can we believe anything he says to us?

  • hempenearth

    Venture capital step 4, shoot the inventor.

    • MasterBlaster7

      I don’t think this is a Cisco situation. My gut is that it is a PT Barnum move designed to get LENR facts on legal record. It would be a fools gambit, for both sides, to blow this whole thing up at this stage. I think there is complicity here between IH and Leo. I’m not super worried at this point. A touch worried, but mostly annoyed that I am going to have to watch this play out…over a fair amount of time.

      • Michael W Wolf

        That is hard to believe.

      • US_Citizen71

        A world class crisis team hired by IH, backroom deals to litigate forcing the topic into the public eye in order to save the world, sounds like a movie plot. But, truth can be stranger than fiction.

  • US_Citizen71

    I have a question for the gaggle of skeptopaths that have joined our group as of late. Why are you here? I understand why the usual suspects that hang out here come around, they are interested in the topic and hope that it will fix different ills in the world. But those of you with such negative attitudes that do nothing but troll the comment section I don’t get it. Are your lives so sad pathetic and empty that the only joy you can find is by harassing people with a different view point?

    • cashmemorz

      They want to show the error of our ways. A crusade to make things right where wrong is perceived

      • Michael W Wolf

        perceived. Maybe they should wait til they know.

        • US_Citizen71

          Michael this is a very fringe topic. Regardless of any outcome of the topic being discussed life for those visiting and contributing to a forum such as this are not really going to be detracted from. Actively seeking out a forum to troll that focuses on a such an obscure thing is a study in human behavior. I can think of plenty of topics that might be fun to troll and in my opinion a waste of time, resources etc. for other people to engage in but I don’t hunt them down and do it.

          • NT

            Yes, we all add to the topics and intellectual discussion (trools not welcome and Frank does and excellent job with that) is appreciated by me on all sides of these issues (as somtime I can be wrong and need corrected) He he…

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Yeah, I’m a negative nanny. Deal with it! I’m here, because:

      a) I want the E-Cat to be real
      b) I find Rossi a fascinating and charismatic character
      c) the drama, duh!

      • US_Citizen71

        No worries, I have seen you around here and other venues. : )

  • Shiv Singh

    Common sense tells us that the reactor is for real. If the device did not work, Rossi will be the biggest fool to go to court, and become laughing stock. He is guaranteed to loose. So, the fact that he is suing, means that the device works, and IH is not paying, due to some fine print. IH is committing broad daylight robbery. That is what I would do if I had a technology like eCat.

    • e-dog

      Hey Mr Singh. if you had technology like this would you save the planet with it??

  • Shiv Singh

    IH guys are real smart thieves. Instead of paying Rossi 89 million, they can spend just a few million and drain out aging Rossi. They went ahead and already created improvised designs.
    Tie Rossi in patent war and it is game over for Rossi.
    Sorry Mr Rossi, welcome to the shark tank. You will be swallowed soon.

  • Shiv Singh

    Rossi always knew that he would need to defend. But he banked his plans on the 89 million he was going to get from IH. IH is now going to hang him to dry.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Wow, this is a long one. Let’s have an intermission for a
    bathroom break.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sppPQogIhxs

    • NT

      Whew, thanks I needed that….

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Andrea Rossi

    April 7, 2016 at 7:27 PM

    Dear Janne:

    I have to comment the press release of IH.

    They made the Lugano reactor, they made many replications of which we have due record and witnesses, they made multiple patent applications ( without my authotization ) with their chief engineer as the co-inventor ( he invented nothing ) , with detailed description of the replications , they made replications with the attendance of Woodford, after which they got 50 or 60 millions of dollars from Woodfords’ investors, they made replications with the attendance of Chinese top level officers, after which they started thanks to the E-Cat they made an R&D activity in China, they made replications with an E-Cat completely made by them under my direction the very day in which the 1 MW plant has been delivered in Raleigh, they made replications that we have recorded. After the replication they made with the attendance of Woodford in 2013 Mr Tom Darden said publicly: ” this replication has been stellar” ( witnesses available). But this is not the place to discuss this. We have prepared 18 volumes to explain exactly and in detail the activity of our “Licensee” and his acquaintances from 2013 to now. Until they had to collect money thanks to the E-Cat, they made replications and have been happy with the E-Cat; when it turned to have to pay, they discovered that they never made replications, that the ERV that they had chosen with us was not good, that the test on the 1 MW plant, thanks to which they collected enormous amounts of money from the investors, was not a good test, etc etc. But the worse has still to come out. The worse is in the 18 volumes we will present in due time, in due place. A blog is not the right place to discuss a litigation. This is only a quick answer to the press release made by J.T. Vaughn.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    >>>>

    Wow.

    • SG

      I suspected the IH patents were filed without Mr. Rossi signing on. This confirms that conjecture. For those hoping for a simple resolution to this matter, I’d suggest lowering that expectation. On the up side, the battle will play out in a court of law, and there are few better ways to bring LENR information into the public domain and into the public consciousness.

      • NT

        As most great tigers Rossi enjoys a good battle AND will ultimatly win this one! IMHO….

        • SG

          You could very well be right. He actually has a very good batting record in his previous court battles.

      • Ecco

        I have nothing to do with Rossi or IH. I simply took some time off.

        • Charlie tapp

          Alright your back! You know that was just for fun right I know where you stand. Now get back to work.

      • Obvious

        “Darden says his group was not involved with the test cited in the report.
        “We built the reactor, but we shipped it over to Switzerland,” he says.”

        http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2014/10/raleigh-investor-darden-still-bullish-on.html

      • e-dog

        Ok… Ok. What ever happened to the company who was getting the heat?
        Did they save money? or not?
        Did they use less power for heating or not?
        Was the shipping container useful or not?
        When, how why cant we find out????????

        • bachcole

          Yeah, where is the customer? Who is the customer? I would be nice to hear from them.

    • Buck

      While I can’t foretell the future, it is this sort of detailed preparation by Rossi for the possibility of a misunderstanding that goes to show what sort of long distance runner he was when he set the record on that 24Hour run made so long ago.

      • NT

        I believe they have awoke a tiger and think they have him by the tail. Rossi will not lay back once bitten…

      • Publius

        I can’t help but think that constantly putting Rossi on a pedestal has not been helpful. Until proven, I will believe in the technology over the man.

    • Curbina

      Rossi is just confirming what many of us knew. The 2013 test pictures that were known had Darden and Vaughn handling the 1 MW plant hands on.

    • LuFong

      The problem is not that there were replications. The problem is, do those replications produce an device with a COP > 1? Even the Lugano report doesn’t really answer that question definitively, IMO. I am waiting to hear what if anything IH says about why the 1MW plant test is also not credible.

      Still one has to shake ones head at IH. Are they really that incompetent to not do their due diligence? Do they have a leg to stand on given that Rossi just pointed out that they too have profited from their $11M investment (so far).

      • Ged

        They have profitted a -lot-. A lot a lot. That’s a major issue for IH, as it makes it look like they were using Rossi, especially if they suspected it was all not working, to gain money. Then IH would be the people pulling the con.

        This is some head spinning stuff, but I’m sure IH has way more to back them up.

    • Obvious

      Wow is right.

    • Omega Z

      “They made the Lugano reactor”

      I believe Darden actually made this statement. They made the reactor and shipped it to Lugano..

  • Buck

    Beautiful . . . . that sounds like training in IP with the subsequent substantiation of anomalous heat and isotopic transmutations.

    • Omega Z

      Perhaps someone should collect and document all this data for Rossi and his lawyer.
      It would show that Rossi fulfilled his contractual obligations.

      • Buck

        OZ,

        you likely missed one of Rossi’s comments . . . . he has 18 binders of documentation that aids in the contradiction of IH’s apparent argument.

        This comment by Rossi is cited in the following thread:
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/08/rossi-responds-to-ih-statement/#comments

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Obviously, Rossi’s and IH’s statements cannot be true at the same time. But that does not yet mean that one of the parties lied. People can make wrong statements while being truly convinced of what they are saying. In contrast to that, a liar says deliberately the untruth.

  • sam

    What did they do for 3 years trying
    to substantiate build Ecats.
    If so who worked on it.
    I think Tom Darden should have
    spent some time in the container.
    To see what he was getting for 100 million.

  • Mordriel

    Hey, IH, your right hand seems all tied up in legal proceedings, and… oh! I see you, NOW, LEFT hand! Pesky LEFT hand…

  • Teemu Soilamo

    I wouldn’t say potentially going to prison is a no-lose situation.

    Darden, on the other hand, is in a no-win situation. 😛

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Then why would IH promote the product
      to receive $50,000,000 from Woodword?

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Hence the no-win situation. If he’s claiming Rossi of fraud, then that means he has committed fraud himself.

        • Omega Z

          I create a device that will save Sam a $1000 every year. In return, I want $20 for said device. For this, I’m seen as being greedy.

          Sam isn’t satisfied with saving the $1000, He also wants to skip paying me my $20. Who is really the greedy person here.

  • wonderboy

    Well this is a horrible way to end the year long tests!

    It’s a tragedy actually, instead of issuing a new age of technology, we get a patent war, and no revolution!

    • e-dog

      I totally agree Mr wonderboy!
      selfish mfers

  • bfast

    “all without success.” Wow! Did IH and Rossi read the same report of the findings? I am baffled, more than baffled by this statement.

  • Lachlan Taylor

    Hank Mills

    April 7, 2016 at 8:11 PM

    Dear Andrea,

    When you state that IH has made successful replications, did they themselves prepare and process the fuel material to be used in the reactors — including catalyzers — according to IP provided to them, or did they simply use fuel pre-prepared by Leonardo Corporation?

    Thank you.

    Sincerely,

    Hank Mills

    Hank Mills:

    They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.

    I just teached to them what to do.

    They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

    Now, let me talk to you of a very singular coincidence: Brillouin has always made only electrolytic apparatuses: go to read all their patent applications made before their agreement with IH, and you will find confirmation of what I am saying ( I know their patents by heart, because I have studied them and probably I know them better than themselves : I wrote about 100 pages of notes about their patents. And now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April 2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington, DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with. Nothing that Brillouin has ever made before the agreement with IH. What a coincidence !!!

    Wow again! AR is on fire!

    • Publius

      None of this helps Rossi’s case. Accusing Brillouin of stealing his technology is just desperate at this point.

      • Heath

        It will be interesting to see how all of this when framed though a patent shakes itself out. I personally think Rossi needed the right funding for the patent in order to move forward.

      • TomR

        When IH invested in Brillouin, I posted then, that Rossi might be in trouble with IH knowing his IP. It looks like I was right. I am glad that Rossi must have thought that also and he started keeping meticulous records which will soon pay off.

    • deleo77

      I actually thought of posting this earlier even before Rossi’s statement. I do believe that Godes and Brillouin may have gotten to Darden over the past year by saying, sure Rossi can create the reaction, but so can we. And we can control it much better than he can. Brillouin has always made this case and Darden invested in them as well. It could now be that Godes is the Chief Scientist of IH. Both Godes and Darden were at the last ICCF conference. I’m sure they talked.

    • e-dog

      Wow….
      Show the world the formula and take all the kudos Mr Rossi!
      Man up

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Sign e-dog’s petition for free stuff.

        • e-dog

          Im on board!
          Imagine if you discovered and were sitting on the cure for cancer Iggy or a cure for bacterial infections? Would you keep the science to yourself? Or keep it till you got the right price? Or keep it to your self so you could control it and decide who lives and who dies?

          This is a potential fix/cure to many and massive problems on this planet… what would you do?

          • Omega Z

            I would keep it secret until I got the right price.

            Your argument surely could apply to everything. If I need to give away everything I create for Free, then maybe I shall create nothing. I will merely wait for others to create then take it from them.
            I have learned that people will suck the life right out of you with such arguments.

    • So we learn that IH have Brillouin on board – no real surprises there. Nor is using them in an attempt to break Rossi’s monopoly on high output LENR.

      This begins to look like a serious attempt to corner the market. I wonder who else has taken their shilling?

  • e-dog

    I remember reading this… can remember I felt good! Rossi had told other people the secret… things were moving forward…
    Damn

  • Obvious

    Andrea Rossi

    April 7, 2016 at 8:32 PM

    Hank Mills:

    They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.

    I just teached to them what to do.

    They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

    Now, let me talk to you of a very singular coincidence: Brillouin has
    always made only electrolytic apparatuses: go to read all their patent
    applications made before their agreement with IH, and you will find
    confirmation of what I am saying ( I know their patents by heart,
    because I have studied them and probably I know them better than
    themselves : I wrote about 100 pages of notes about their patents ). And
    now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April
    2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington,
    DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with.
    Nothing that Brillouin has ever made before the agreement with IH. What a
    coincidence !!!

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • Obvious

    Andrea Rossi
    April 7, 2016 at 9:09 PM

    Hank Mills:
    In the press release of IH they write that ” for three years they tried to replicate the Rossi effect, with no avail”: very good, but during those three years Industrial Heat collected about 60 million dollars from Woodford, more millions from other sources, exclusively based on my E-Cats technology. This before making shopping to buy other patents. Now, the cases are two: either they are lying when they say they didn’t replicate, or they made a fraud collecting 60 millions from Woodford, more from others, not to mention Cherokee fund. You had to see Tom Darden and JT Vaughn dance like ballet etoiles around the investors, showing them the E-Cats, and telling them that the E-Cats had been built by them! “Stellar” coherently Darden, in his role of etoile, repeated to the enchanted attandees, ready to spend 50 millions. Now, that my bill arrived, the E-Cat had not been replicated , they say. For three years.
    Again, I am just answering to a press release of IH.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • SG

      Hindsight is 20/20, but the $89 million should have been escrowed. Otherwise, no deal.

      • bfast

        You are soooo right!

      • deleo77

        Also, did IH sign off on the ERV and the testing protocols before the test started? The details of the test should have been explicitly laid out and agreed upon in the contract. Why would Rossi conduct a 350 day test expecting a pay day at the end of it if there was not an iron clad agreement that the test was signed off on by IH? This should have all been agreed to by both parties in a binding contract. $89 million is a lot of money. Where were the lawyers?

        • SG

          I don’t think IH ever intended to pay the $89 million. They dragged their feet (for about a year) on getting the 350 test underway. Whenever Mr. Darden or IH have made public speeches, announcements, or interviews, they have always downplayed the e-Cat, and in most instances, didn’t even mention it. In fact, they were careful to expound upon their efforts to invest in a variety of LENR startups.

          Yet, in the background, they were allegedly using their own independently replicated e-Cat devices and test results to induce significant investments form the likes of Woodford. I must say, my initial reading of Mr. Darden as being an enlightened individual out for the greater good seems to have been way off.

        • e-dog

          Its a farce. Rossi is not a good business man but he thinks he is.

        • After thinking about this for a while I have a few of thoughts on IH. 1. IH doesn’t want to pay Rossi because once they do he is off to the races with his plant which will be in direct competition with their other “LENR” technologies. They want to set the table for the entire market and Rossi wont allow them to do it. Brillouin Energy and others are in the ear of IH. 2. They don’t like Rossi its like Tesla and Edison all over again. 3. The picture runs deeper than we know Governments and Multinationals are now involved and it is now a question of power and security. 4. Rossi will go down as one of the biggest disruptors in human history (possibly along with Dr. Mills who seems content to give the market time torealize that he is coming).

          • Bob Greenyer

            yes

          • BadgerWI

            Or…Just to play Devil’s advocate… Rossi has nothing and IH has the research to prove it.

          • blanco69

            Agreed. This risk here is to pick a side first and then wade in with an opinion. I think one would be prudent to conceed that IH know much more about the 1MW system than we do. They have also just publicly said that, after years of closely working together, they cannot substantiate Rossi’s claims. That’s got to be damaging. Especially when it turns out the ERV is not as independant as he could be. If the ecat runs at COP>50 lets see it – a first year science sudent would be able to determine that. If we get clear independent verification then IH’s position becomes less solid. A letter from Rossi’s friend Penon wont do it.

          • Ged

            I am kinda curious as to know where the idea Penon is Rossi’s friend comes from. We know from the filing that IH was involved in Penon’s original selection with the 24 hour test, so at the least, he’s a mutual friend of them both. But, IH also had techs working constantly in there, so if they have proof, they will pony up. If they don’t provide data, then they are just doing the usual “deny everything and accuse the other” legal maneuvering.

          • Omega Z

            It’s simple,
            If you know Rossi, even due to a previous test, you must be biased. Therefore, Not independent.
            It is similar to Rossi/Levi. They did not initially know each other. Levi spent much time trying to debunk the E-cat. That He come to know Rossi during that time and could not debunk the E-cat, he must be his friend and automatically Biased.

          • “Rossi is a pain in the ass” I would consider a scientific fact.

            Apco is a clue though. They make a living from the kind of stuff we could label “conspiracy theories”. They also have Clinton and green agenda connections. The academics will go for the “scientifically rigorous approach” type of arguments.

          • Eyedoc

            AR is off to the races anyway !!!!

        • Omega Z

          IH obviously signed on the dotted line.
          However, If they didn’t, why would they accept $1000 a day for the sale of heat from the customer ???

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I am sure they tried, very few have 100 million in the bank for such purpose.

  • e-dog

    Ecco…. they are all in on it

    • e-dog

      year after next.. we might find out

  • IH has issued a standard lawyerBot answer. However we need have our eyes open for the Apco people getting to work behind scenes. Their specialty is fake grassroot movements and using the “science” word out of context. They show themselves in the last sentence. In this case the purpose is all about delay. This is the establishment talking. They do not want to sell the product even if it works, only to research it indefinately and find the best way to implement it top-down to reduce disruption.

    • kdk

      Indeed, they’ve done very fine work for us… this ridiculous saga of messing up our planet should have been over decades ago.

      • Andre Blum

        An extra round of applause is in place for MFMP at this moment. Their recent replication, as Bob Greenyer said, lends a lot of credibility to Rossi, helping me a lot to stay positive in this crisis.

  • GordonDocherty

    “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the
    results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without
    success”

    What does that mean?

    Are they going to say “the E-Cat doesn’t work but, hey, here is the F-Cat, and it works just fine”, or “the E-Cat works, but not as he claimed (50 times isn’t 6 times, after all)”, or “the E-Cat can’t be automatically and continuously loaded with new fuel as we say Andrea Rossi said it could” or some such?

    I note, in other words, that the wording has been very careful crafted so as to say not very much at all.

    Again:

    “Leonardo Corporation and Mr. Rossi also have repeatedly breached their agreements”

    but no detail – but, then, there is a Freudian slip in there – the word “also”. In effect, IH are admitting they breached their side of any agreements, as in, if I say “he also did it”, this means I must have done it too…

    • Teemu Soilamo

      I think you’re reading too much into it. Look at what happened the last time we tried to analyze IH’s words; few predicted that it was pre-emptive damage control for an upcoming lawsuit. Some even construed it as a positive for Rossi and LENR.

    • EEStorFanFibb

      nice catch! re: “also”

  • JDM

    IH claims that they cannot replicate flies in the face of their patent application for the device. Anyone investing in IH as a results of a known, non-functional device and patent will be looking for blood I would think!

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t know if it makes a big difference, but the word they actually used was they could not “substantiate” Rossi’s claims.

      Substantiate means: “provide evidence to support or prove the truth of.”
      Replicate means: “make an exact copy of; reproduce.”

        • artefact

          Good one!

        • ggummm

          The paradigm shift will be even more disruptive than ecat itself. “They” can not stop “that”

      • wpj

        Rossi used “replicate” when describing what they said rather than “substantiate” which is where the confusion may arise.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        In case that they did not refer to own replication attempts, „to substantiate“ could only mean to assess the report of the ERV. If they agreed with the test protocol as is stated in #63 of the suit, I guess they are not in a good position to question the result, even if it should be a false positive – except if they could prove that either the protocol was modified or that the report contains incorrect data or calculations.

        • wpj

          They had 2 people there for a lot of the time which should have been their “substantiation”- that and the electricity consumption.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            The presence of the two IH employees is an interesting detail. If they had noticed that something was wrong with the test, they should have informed IH immediately. IH would then have been obliged to disclose this information to their investors, I suppose. This could be another point for Rossi.

      • JDM

        2.5 years of due diligence for investment on unsubstantiated results would still not be reasonable. 50M$ unreasonable!

      • Omega Z

        “substantiate” would be a safe term. They have not called Rossi a out right liar or fraud which could be an issue latter in court $$$. It can be considered an (F9) statement.

    • “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”. Even more so if you are deliberately looking in the wrong direction.

  • psi2u2

    Jumping to conclusions is surely premature given the extensive discussion that has taken place on these forums about IH various actions, including taking out its own patents on a process you now condemn as the work of a “fraud.” Whether or not Rossi is a “fraud” can only be decided by a court of law or through some unequivocal demonstration of a working product.

  • Private Citizen

    Giving Rossi the benefit of doubt, Rossi could be like Philo T. Farnsworth who invented electronic television as a dogged solo inventor, while David Sarnoff saw the potential and bought up the patent of Vladimir Zworykin as cover for reverse engineering Farnsworth’s technology while delaying Farnsworth endlessly in court.

    Or Rossi could have nothing, but based on flawed Lugano thermography and an earlier flawed Penon test, IH bought into Rossi’s claims.

    Those who yearn to either believe or to disbelieve will torture and twist the narrative to their own comfort, inventing theories about the withheld “secret sauce” and such. Those heavily invested in skepticism or faith will be the last to admit they are wrong.

    • Michael W Wolf

      You are absolutely right. But why fraudulently claim 50 COP when you only need a more believable 3 COP to pull off the scam? Why not walk with an 11.5 million dollar scam? Just like sometimes paranoid people are right. Blind faith doesn’t always mean you are wrong. I believe Fabiani and he is working for who I consider the bad guys in this scenario. I could be wrong but Fabiano would have to be a double agent, right?

  • wpj

    Rossi was paid $11.5m for “validated” results (doesn’t matter if we believe it).

    IH reportedly obtained $260m ($60m Woodford, $200m Chinese- “reportedly” due to the Chinese figure coming from Rossi). IH say that the work was not “substantiated” in 3 years, yet they took the money.

    Who is the fraudster?

    • Tom59

      While the quarrels continue and time passes, China is going ahead bold and fast and will bring the reactors to the market. Would help the technology…

      • SG

        No doubt about it. China’s only viable alternative is coal, which is killing off their people, and making life in their cities unbearable. They have FAR bigger incentives to run with LENR than the US. You will also see India in the mix as well given the needs of their gigantic population and limited energy resources.

  • Skip

    I DO like margaritas…
    But…

  • Mylan

    People growing up in religious families are less altruistic than others: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)01167-7

    • Michael W Wolf

      That wasn’t a very altruistic statement. You religious? If not, I rest my case.

  • Ged

    Having coal smog thicker than the heaviest London fog will certainly motivate a society.

  • Publius

    Far more probable is that Rossi has a history of deceit and not working well with others, so why is it a surprise the relationship soured?

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Making a statement that is materially false while being convinced that it is true is not the same as making a false statement, while knowing that it is false.

  • Fiesler Storch

    Seems simple to me: IH believed the Lugano test proved that Rossi had something; but they did more tests and couldn’t get OU and decided that Rossi’s e-cat didn’t work; so they refused to pay the 89 Million.

    After all, if the e-cat really worked, 89 million would be pocket change; having the rights to the e-cat would be worth hundreds of billions.

    • timycelyn

      – I think the operative word is seems.

    • Michael W Wolf

      IH’s patent of 2014, claims they built and tested a reactor and got a COP of 11. Within the 3 years they claimed to have worked on it. A contradiction to the public statement.

  • psi2u2

    Yikes.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Isn’t “ecat techology” completely different from saying “ecat”? What were they using when building their own reactor? They were using ecat technology.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Think about it. If Cherokee is heavily invested in fossil fuel assets, they can’t get rid of the right now because basically they would most if not all be losses because of the current fossi fuel crash. I can call it a crash, right? If they make a major announce about a new energy source, proven, and working prototype exists, what do you think those 2 billion in assets would be worth?

    • bachcole

      And not just Cherokee. Any investors who KNOW that LENR is real may be reacting to a fossil fuel market collapse.

      Too bad the greatest and most destructive back stab in human history may be named after an American Indian tribe. They don’t deserve it.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Maybe that is why they are so vague in their Statements. Maybe they do think Rossi violated the contract by not giving them access to new developments he has made. When I said about government intervention, I was just throwing you know what at the wall. But what you said explains a lot. Man, and Rossi is getting old, I hope to God he doesn’t die with it. Or worse, if you are right, shut him up permanently.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Rossi can go to prison. I don’t think he would sue if he was a fraud. Rossi must know the only way to win is provide a working reactor.

  • Donk970

    Here’s the sniff test. If Industrial Heat’s claim that the E-Cat doesn’t work is legit then they really should make everything to do with it public or at the least hand the whole pile back to Rossi and walk away. If they try to hang on to the patents it means that the claim that it doesn’t work is BS and they are attempting to remove Rosi before they get the big payoff.

    • bachcole

      To give I.H. some credit, it is potentially the biggest money maker in the history of the world, so I can understand the temptation. But I still think, if what I am seeing is true, that they are scum-bags.

    • DrD

      IH haven’t claimed it doesn’t work.
      The above response is that they were unable to substantiate the claims (of AR).
      Maybe that subtle difference is important.