Mats Lewan Expects ERV Report Publication Soon, Close to Making Decision on Symposium (Update: Rossi "100% Sure Report Will be Published")

Mats Lewan has posted a new article on his An Impossible Invention website where he reviews the latest news about the E-Cat.

His article is here: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/

Mats is positive about the developments. He states “The good part is that all this info now is public, that the one-year 1MW was successful, and that commercially viable LENR is here to stay, and that it will change the world.”

In addition to reviewing the news we discovered from the court case documents and the Leonardo press release, he adds a few interesting points:

He says that he has heard independent information (not from Rossi) about people connected to IH “actively trying to engage experts in the field to work on replication of Rossi’s effect, while telling various stories about Rossi”

He also writes:

“We will probably soon see the full report that was delivered to Rossi and Darden on March 29.”

“As for the New Energy World Symposium, I’m very close to take the final decision to hold the event now.”

Mats has always said that he won’t hold the symposium unless the ERV report is ‘clearly positive.’ So from what Mats is saying he expects the report to be published openly.

UPDATE: Andrea Rossi on the JONP responded to this question: ” Dear Dr. Rossi, What’s going to happen to the pubblication of the report, with the recent litigation on course ?”

Andrea Rossi
April 7, 2016 at 9:20 AM
Andrea:
We are going to publish it as soon as my attorney gives me green light. I am sure 100% it will be published.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Matts may be bias but he is not a fraudster. He believes everything he says. If he says it is confirmed, I believe we can take it to the bank.

    • Ged

      Also, if his info is right, then IH was indeed running around with Rossi’s tech trying to get new engineers to take over in making their own version of the e-cat. I could see why the risk of getting cut out of his own invention might set Rossi off.

      We’ll have to see as we gain more info.

      • Didn’t Rossi say some time ago that IH is itself able to build working reactors completely independent of him?

        So they already replicated it.

        Maybe they are looking for scientists which will improve the technology like Rossi is doing (Hotcat -> Ecat X).

        • Ged

          He did say that, indeed. Thank you for reminding me.

          • (As above): Yes, he said they constructed the E-Cat, but he didn’t mention the fuel. However, from what’s stated in the complaint document and in the license agreement, he transferred all knowledge, including the formula for the fuel, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that IH has been able to replicate the effect. As we have seen, it’s not a toy for amateurs. Particular skills are needed, and IH maybe didn’t have them.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Hmm, what if he gave them the sauce that wasn’t processed? It would explain why their reactor at Lagano performed but not that well.

          • SG

            Remember that the Lugano testers purposely didn’t enable the self-sustain mode. They thought it would be easier to test that way (in my opinion, a mistake).

          • Hador_NYC

            so what if they are? The US being a huge consumer of energy, and a country that would benefit immensely from effectively free energy, why wouldn’t it, we, benefit from this tech? Oil jobs, while well paying, would not tank teh economy if they went away. They would not any time soon, anyway, if this tech was finally starting to deploy. The gain would be that energy intensive activities, like steel making, would be cheaper to do here. Manufacturing in general, which has been decimated in the US in the last 20 years would be much cheaper to do here again, thus the US would benefit mightily. Plus, we’d have no more need to defend the Persian Gulf. That would be good for us too, and our own oil supplies would be enough as we transitioned to this. The US G is not the evil bad guy some folks here seem to think it is.

            Companies, though, well there is a fair point. Armstrong certainly got nothing for his work, Tesla, nearly nothing, and the list sadly does go on and on.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Right, and I think the ash test results were a surprise to Rossi, and could have led to an improved E-Cat.

      • Michael W Wolf

        If they did that, how can they get an engineer convinced without disclosing the information that is forbidden by their contract?

  • Michael W Wolf

    Mats may be bias but he is not a fraudster. He believes everything he says. If he says it is confirmed, I believe we can take it to the bank.

    • Ged

      Also, if his info is right, then IH was indeed running around with Rossi’s tech trying to get new engineers to take over in making their own version of the e-cat. I could see why the risk of getting cut out of his own invention might set Rossi off.

      We’ll have to see as we gain more info.

      • Didn’t Rossi say some time ago that IH is itself able to build working reactors completely independent of him?

        So they already replicated it.

        Maybe they are looking for scientists which will improve the technology like Rossi is doing (Hotcat -> Ecat X).

        • Ged

          He did say that, indeed. Thank you for reminding me.

          • (As above): Yes, he said they constructed the E-Cat, but he didn’t mention the fuel. However, from what’s stated in the complaint document and in the license agreement, he transferred all knowledge, including the formula for the fuel, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that IH has been able to replicate the effect. As we have seen, it’s not a toy for amateurs. Particular skills are needed, and IH maybe didn’t have them.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Hmm, what if he gave them the sauce that wasn’t processed? It would explain why their reactor at Lagano performed but not that well.

          • SG

            Remember that the Lugano testers purposely didn’t enable the self-sustain mode. They thought it would be easier to test that way (in my opinion, a mistake).

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Right, and I think the ash test results were a surprise to Rossi, and could have led to an improved E-Cat.

          • SG

            Remember that the Lugano testers purposely didn’t enable the self-sustain mode. They thought it would be easier to test that way (in my opinion, a mistake).

          • Michael W Wolf

            Hmm, what if he gave them the sauce that wasn’t processed? It would explain why their reactor at Lagano performed but not that well.

      • Michael W Wolf

        If they did that, how can they get an engineer convinced without disclosing the information that is forbidden by their contract?

  • Tom59

    “People telling various stories about Rossi” – is this a hint that AR has trouble to keep focus and stay humble in the center of this development? That would be sad in the moment of victory…

    • The stories were not necessarily relevant or true.

      • Examples? Or is this another secret?

        • No big secrets, but I need to protect my sources, so I cannot say more.

          • Can you say if they were IH being misled versus IH being malicious?

  • Tom59

    “People telling various stories about Rossi” – is this a hint that AR has trouble to keep focus and stay humble in the center of this development? That would be sad in the moment of victory…

    • The stories were not necessarily relevant or true.

      • Examples? Or is this another secret?

        • No big secrets, but I need to protect my sources, so I cannot say more.

          • Can you say if they were IH being misled versus IH being malicious?

          • Can you say if they were IH being misled versus IH being malicious?

        • No big secrets, but I need to protect my sources, so I cannot say more.

      • Examples? Or is this another secret?

  • sam

    If they are headed to court I cannot see
    them agreeing to release the report.

  • Adam

    Thanks LENR G for great summary:


    Avatar
    LENR G
    3 hours ago
    The main points for me are:

    – The COP was over 50, verified by an ERV, and Rossi/Leonardo have now made a legal claim to that effect. This is worlds apart from claiming COP 6+ on JoNP and virtually eliminates any possibility that Rossi is a scam artist. Measurement error is a ridiculous explanation at that performance level and otherwise co-conspirators would have to be involved for years while Rossi lived inside a container for a year. Not a measurement error. Not delusional. Not an epic scam. Official legal claims. Occam’s razor = E-Cats work as advertised.

    – The ERV was Dr. Penon, previously associated with Rossi. This will keep the skeptopaths in business indefinitely as will the interpretation of the lawsuit and IH press release as Industrial Heat bailing on Rossi and the E-Cat simply because it doesn’t work.

    – This is most likely a fight over money and IP. Industrial Heat paid $11.5 M to Rossi upon delivery of the plant and its subsequent 24 hr verification by Penon (so at least at that point they were satisfied with Penon and the measurements — that would have been the time to blow the whistle if they had uncovered a scam). Industrial Heat received the secret sauce at that point. For whatever reason they are balking at the last $89 M. Maybe they only want to pay half and force it into the 5% royalty scheme because they think they’ve got a marketable product via another asset (see 3.2 (c) in agreement). Maybe they couldn’t raise the money. Maybe it’s just business from their perspective and they are optimizing the position of their shareholders. Or maybe they think they are the victims of fraud. We anxiously await their position.

    – The plant customer is JM Chemical Products Inc (JMC) in Doral, FL led by a Henry W Johnson. They appear to have first registered in June 2014. It’s not clear to me after a little Googling what they make. The size and timing of their creation do not add any credibility. The scenario of Rossi recruiting Penon and others to his evil scheme and creating a “chemical company” out of thin air with a willing flunky to back up the claimed energy savings fits the facts to some extent. We are far from the ideal scenario of UL as the ERV validating a COP of 50 at NASA or DOW Chemical.
    7861 NW 46th St Doral, FL 33166-5470
    ****************************************************************
    People involved in an “independent test” can not be at any way connected to Rossi or IH. Case closed. So this does look good. COP of 100 figure is meaningless unless the client is Dow Chemical (or other serious industrial entity) and the ERV is a US Naval Lab employee (nuclear submarines (?)), NASA employee, or person working for company that makes or maintains nuclear power plants…Both Rossi and IH are totally guilty of not setting this up in a right way.

    • I hope I am more right than wrong in my inferences!

    • Michael W Wolf

      poppycock Ih had 2 of their people there. It’s about IP and contractual disputes. Not performance disputes. IH thought they had the secret sauce. But there are many sauce recipes. Some give only anomalous heat, others give a CO of 50. lol IH thought they were playing Rossi, just like Defkalion did. Where’s Defkalion? Yep gone with nothing.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I think you might be right, Rossi has been taken to the cleaners by the Italian mafia, he learned a lot about trusting, especially when so much money is involved.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      It is a strong possibility they could not find the ERV you propose because of the stigma that has been created around LENR

  • Adam

    Thanks LENR G for great summary:


    Avatar
    LENR G
    3 hours ago
    The main points for me are:

    – The COP was over 50, verified by an ERV, and Rossi/Leonardo have now made a legal claim to that effect. This is worlds apart from claiming COP 6+ on JoNP and virtually eliminates any possibility that Rossi is a scam artist. Measurement error is a ridiculous explanation at that performance level and otherwise co-conspirators would have to be involved for years while Rossi lived inside a container for a year. Not a measurement error. Not delusional. Not an epic scam. Official legal claims. Occam’s razor = E-Cats work as advertised.

    – The ERV was Dr. Penon, previously associated with Rossi. This will keep the skeptopaths in business indefinitely as will the interpretation of the lawsuit and IH press release as Industrial Heat bailing on Rossi and the E-Cat simply because it doesn’t work.

    – This is most likely a fight over money and IP. Industrial Heat paid $11.5 M to Rossi upon delivery of the plant and its subsequent 24 hr verification by Penon (so at least at that point they were satisfied with Penon and the measurements — that would have been the time to blow the whistle if they had uncovered a scam). Industrial Heat received the secret sauce at that point. For whatever reason they are balking at the last $89 M. Maybe they only want to pay half and force it into the 5% royalty scheme because they think they’ve got a marketable product via another asset (see 3.2 (c) in agreement). Maybe they couldn’t raise the money. Maybe it’s just business from their perspective and they are optimizing the position of their shareholders. Or maybe they think they are the victims of fraud. We anxiously await their position.

    – The plant customer is JM Chemical Products Inc (JMC) in Doral, FL led by a Henry W Johnson. They appear to have first registered in June 2014. It’s not clear to me after a little Googling what they make. The size and timing of their creation do not add any credibility. The scenario of Rossi recruiting Penon and others to his evil scheme and creating a “chemical company” out of thin air with a willing flunky to back up the claimed energy savings fits the facts to some extent. We are far from the ideal scenario of UL as the ERV validating a COP of 50 at NASA or DOW Chemical.
    7861 NW 46th St Doral, FL 33166-5470
    ****************************************************************
    People involved in an “independent test” can not be at any way connected to Rossi or IH. Case closed. So this does look good. COP of 100 figure is meaningless unless the client is Dow Chemical (or other serious industrial entity) and the ERV is a US Naval Lab employee (nuclear submarines (?)), NASA employee, or person working for company that makes or maintains nuclear power plants…Both Rossi and IH are totally guilty of not setting this up in a right way.

    • I hope I am more right than wrong in my inferences!

      EDIT: per your comment I don’t think Rossi or IH ever made a big deal about the plant test being “independent.” That came more from the peanut gallery (us) as hopeful thinking. The test was for themselves to trigger payment of $10M and then $89M dollars and the ERV need only be entities to which both parties agreed. We assumed IH would insist on independence for their ERV with so much riding on this “impossible” technology. But they didn’t (unless Barry West is the bomb). So, bad assumption on our part.

    • Michael W Wolf

      poppycock Ih had 2 of their people there. It’s about IP and contractual disputes. Not performance disputes. IH thought they had the secret sauce. But there are many sauce recipes. Some give only anomalous heat (Lagano) built by IH, others give a COP of 50. lol IH thought they were playing Rossi, just like Defkalion did. Where’s Defkalion? Yep gone with nothing. IH has a kitty cat, Rossi has the lion. IH wants the lion.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I think you might be right, Rossi has been taken to the cleaners by the Italian mafia, he learned a lot about trusting, especially when so much money is involved.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      It is a strong possibility they could not find the ERV you propose because of the stigma that has been created around LENR

    • I have no problem with the company being created for or around the time of the test. I always found the idea of an existing business participating in a LENR device test as crazy talk. IH was happy with and approved using Penon and the test site company so that’s not something that they can now complain about. Nor should we imo.

  • Sylvie Cemoi

    The big question is:
    Why didn’t IH pay Rossi?

    If I understood well, they had 5 days to pay Rossi after the report release (if positive). The report was released. Rossi claims it’s positive. 5 days passed and IH didn’t send the money.
    Only IH and Rossi have really seen the report. Maybe there is something in it that IH doesn’t like.

    • Michael W Wolf

      No way. they knew about every step of the report. It is IP issues. As usual with new tech.

      • Billy Jackson

        i am starting to lean toward your view.. i think this is about future e-cat products or those in development now.. if rossi is taking a “no you only get what you contracted for not future upgrades” .. well that would make me want to terminate the contract too. The onus is still on IH to prove they were not out to steal the technology which sorry to say.. rossi put some pretty damning evidence out there that they were not playing strait… but again.. this is all about perception.. so still waiting on a reply from IH.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Yea, the sad thing is Rossi could lose the case. But at least we’ll have the tech. Rossi may end up like Tesla. I hope not.

        • SG

          Yes, but the agreement clearly states that IH gets a license to Mr. Rossi’s improvements. Even Mr. Rossi stated on his blog that the e-CatX is included in the license to IH. IH would have had a license to all of Leonardo’s (hundreds?) of pending patent applications. IH could have had access to it all. And instead, they made a calculated decision not to part with the $89M. Why we ask? It is a mystery for now, but might be revealed in IH’s response to the complaint. My personal conjecture is that IH is going to claim that Mr. Rossi somehow breached the agreement. IH will then attempt to go to market with their own “improved” version of the e-Cat.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t think they have the secret sauce. A court may indeed force rossi to pony up said sauce or be subject to fines beyond belief for breach of contract and damage to IH. Remember, we won’t be on the jury. Rossi’s invention may be at great risk of being controlled by someone else. Bell didn’t invent the telephone but won it.

          • SG

            I think they have some of the secret sauce, but maybe not all. IH made the Lugano device. They also have filed at least one patent application of their own including their own co-inventor.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Yep. I was thinking, if they hired that co-inventor from a competitor after the contract was signed, that may also be a breach.

  • Bruce__H

    The ERV report will be unconvincing. Only an independent replication of the effect will be convincing. And by “independent” I mean that Rossi and his friends never get within 1000 kilometers of the setup.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Too bad, then the independent people will be 1000 meters from the real reactor. lol

      • Bruce__H

        This thing is either real or it’s not. Snappy but empty witticisms aren’t helpful.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Independent means establishment to me. I mean they are not independent at all if they are from the establishment. And it seems that only the establishment can be independent in everyone’s mind. You name one independent ERV that wouldn’t be establishment. Crickets. Like Rossi says, only selling ecats will do. And you will probably still not be convinced because you will be told by independent establishment types it cant be real.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Independent means establishment to me. I mean they are not independent at all if they are from the establishment. And it seems that only the establishment can be independent in everyone’s mind. You name one independent ERV that wouldn’t be establishment. Crickets. Like Rossi says, only selling ecats will do. And you will probably still not be convinced because you will be told by independent establishment types it cant be real.

          • Bruce__H

            I would be tickled pink if this was all real. I just want to see secure data before making up my mind and it strikes me that this is in very short supply in this whole field.

          • Bruce__H

            I would be tickled pink if this was all real. I just want to see secure data before making up my mind and it strikes me that this is in very short supply in this whole field.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well that is very reasonable brother.

        • Michael W Wolf

          If you don’t know it is real yet, then you prove my point below.

        • Michael W Wolf

          If you don’t know it is real yet, then you prove my point below.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Why don’t you offer to pay for this “independent” test that everyone will agree is competent and is proof positive if successful?

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Why don’t you offer to pay for this “independent” test that everyone will agree is competent and is proof positive if successful?

      • Bruce__H

        Crowd sourcing is actually a good idea. I bet lots of people would contribute as long as the money doesn’t go to Rossi.

  • Curbina

    Just wanted to say: May the ill wishes of all pathoskeptics are multiplied for them and their offspring for generations to come. They are sure this is the end of the Rossi Saga, while its obvious for anyone with 1 cm3 of gray matter that this is only the end of the beginning…

    • Rossi is such a brilliant scammer. Making easily falsifiable claims in court documents and demanding trial by jury — an expert stroke. His ability to inspire confidence in his ludicrous claims by subjecting himself to legal oblivion is awe inspiring. /snark

      • Michael W Wolf

        I can see him with hat shipping container behind the courthouse. lol

        • Brokeeper

          I’d rather like to see him carry a bright 100W light bulb not plugged in for days/weeks.

          • Michael W Wolf

            If the issue IH has is that the 1mw did not perform, the quarkx won’t do. But I don’t know why Rossi doesn’t do that anyway. 🙂

          • Brokeeper

            Standalone lightbulb.

  • Curbina

    Just wanted to say: May the ill wishes of all pathoskeptics are multiplied for them and their offspring for generations to come. They are sure this is the end of the Rossi Saga, while its obvious for anyone with 1 cm3 of gray matter that this is only the end of the beginning…

    • Rossi is such a brilliant scammer. Making easily falsifiable claims in court documents and demanding trial by jury — an expert stroke. His ability to inspire confidence in his ludicrous claims by subjecting himself to legal oblivion is awe inspiring. /snark

      • Michael W Wolf

        I can see him with that shipping container behind the courthouse. lol

        • Brokeeper

          I’d rather like to see him or his lawyer carry a bright 100W light bulb not plugged in for days/weeks and placed next to him in the court room. The jury won’t hear a thing said.

          • Michael W Wolf

            If the issue IH has is that the 1mw did not perform, the quarkx won’t do. But I don’t know why Rossi doesn’t do that anyway. 🙂

          • Michael W Wolf

            If the issue IH has is that the 1mw did not perform, the quarkx won’t do. But I don’t know why Rossi doesn’t do that anyway. 🙂

          • Brokeeper
          • Brokeeper
  • LuFong

    From Matts Blog: “on people connected to IH, actively trying to engage experts in the field to work on replication of Rossi’s effect, while telling various stories about Rossi, all indicating that IH might have been missing some essential info, or at least wanted to get this info before paying Rossi.” [emphasis mine]

    Maybe the basis of IH’s actions? I was under the assumption that IH had everything needed to replicate the Rossi effect. They produced the Lugano report reactors. Did they produce the reactors for the 1MW plant?

    • Michael W Wolf

      Lagano was not what was in the 1mw reactor. This will be their complaint I think.

      • US_Citizen71

        Read the amendments on sifferkoll’s blog, IH changed the deal to be the 6 cylinder 250kW design in the last amendment. Also it only needed a COP of 2.6 to be validated.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Yea I just saw that. I am still pretty sure it will be over IP dispute.

    • Billy Jackson

      i am absolutely positive that at some point in the past year Rossi stated that IH constructed their own e-cat from Rossi’s instructions with no active input from Rossi.. i just don’t know what thread that was stated in 🙁

      • Yes, he said they constructed the E-Cat, but he didn’t mention the fuel. However, from what’s stated in the complaint document and in the license agreement, he transferred all knowledge, including the formula for the fuel, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that IH has been able to replicate the effect. As we have seen, it’s not a toy for amateurs. Particular skills are needed, and IH maybe didn’t have them.

        • Sanjeev

          The Schedule 3.2(b), Procedure for validation of ECat IP (last but one page), says that LC/AR must demonstrate the procedure to make a working ECat. (Among other things like full documentation and instructions).
          If that happened, I see no reason why IH can’t replicate. They ensured that they get a working formula.
          IF…. IH didn’t get that and can’t replicate then according to this license agreement, the breach will be by Rossi.
          Tricky affair, isn’t it 🙂

        • wpj

          Surely the IH people were involved in the modification to the 4 x 250 kW system which was used; we saw pictures of them working there.

          • artefact

            We heared Fabiani telling us while being paid by IH that he does not know the fuel because it is not his job. Everything is stricktly separated.

          • We also heard Fabiani sing the praises of the amazing E-Cat and that he’s seen mind-blowing things.

            So Industrial Heat, through the person of Fabiani, at least at that moment in time fully believed the E-Cats work as advertised.

          • Michael W Wolf

            That is exactly right. IH can’t claim it didn’t work without being contradicted by their own engineer.

        • Andrew

          Also in the agreement papers it does state that National Instruments supplied the control boards but the programming was custom by Rossi. Maybe that’s the key they’re missing, the programming.

        • sam

          Do you know much about the Scientist that did the EVR report
          Mats

  • Michael W Wolf

    Too bad, then the independent people will be 1000 meters from the real reactor. lol

  • Michael W Wolf

    No way. they knew about every step of the report. It is IP issues. As usual with new tech.

    • Billy Jackson

      i am starting to lean toward your view.. i think this is about future e-cat products or those in development now.. if rossi is taking a “no you only get what you contracted for not future upgrades” .. well that would make me want to terminate the contract too. The onus is still on IH to prove they were not out to steal the technology which sorry to say.. rossi put some pretty damning evidence out there that they were not playing strait… but again.. this is all about perception.. so still waiting on a reply from IH.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yea, the sad thing is Rossi could lose the case. But at least we’ll have the tech. Rossi may end up like Tesla. I hope not.

      • SG

        Yes, but the agreement clearly states that IH gets a license to Mr. Rossi’s improvements. Even Mr. Rossi stated on his blog that the e-CatX is included in the license to IH. IH would have had a license to all of Leonardo’s (hundreds?) of pending patent applications. IH could have had access to it all. And instead, they made a calculated decision not to part with the $89M. Why we ask? It is a mystery for now, but might be revealed in IH’s response to the complaint. My personal conjecture is that IH is going to claim that Mr. Rossi somehow breached the agreement. IH will then attempt to go to market with their own “improved” version of the e-Cat.

        • Michael W Wolf

          I don’t think they have the secret sauce. A court may indeed force rossi to pony up said sauce or be subject to fines beyond belief for breach of contract and damage to IH. Remember, we won’t be on the jury. Rossi’s invention may be at great risk of being controlled by someone else. Bell didn’t invent the telephone but won it.

          • SG

            I think they have some of the secret sauce, but maybe not all. IH made the Lugano device. They also have filed at least one patent application of their own including their own co-inventor.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Yep. I was thinking, if they hired that co-inventor from a competitor after the contract was signed, that may also be a breach.

  • Sanjeev

    AR: I am sure 100% it will be published.
    I’m sure too ! It will be just another “Exhibit”. The most important one.

    • Michael W Wolf

      For us the most important. That contract and how it is interpreted will be key to who gets to make the money from the tech. Whomever is deemed to have breached, loses. You know who’s side I am on. Go Rossi!!

  • Charlie tapp

    Is it possible that since it is impossible to get the scientific community to accept the results and admit they are wrong about science that Darren and Rossi are doing this as part of the plan in it together, because when a federal judge and a jury of peers ( real scientists taking an oath ) reveal that Rossi is not a fraud the thing actually works as said and he wins the law suit as planned is the same as publishing in peer reviewed journals . Good credibility if you ask me. Assuming they the jurors do not lie, even a hung jury would prove it . And with a win patents pending will probably be sped up because of theory’s proven during court that no one was even paying attention to. Damn good movie plot, even better way around the system. I hope this is all real because I really don’t want to go back to a motor running a generator running the motor, I was getting no where with that to.

    • julian becker

      would be quite a movie plot.

    • julian becker

      would be quite a movie plot.

    • bachcole

      You might want to readjust your conclusion because one of your assumptions is incorrect. The jury would not be made up of scientists. It would be made up of 3 housewives, one unemployed person, a cashier at a local bank, a retired guy with a B.A. in philosophy and a B.A. in psychology (that would be me), a school teacher (sorry, English not physics), a bus driver, a dentist, a city worker, a social worker, and a chiropractor. No scientists.

    • bachcole

      You might want to readjust your conclusion because one of your assumptions is incorrect. The jury would not be made up of scientists. It would be made up of 3 housewives, one unemployed person, a cashier at a local bank, a retired guy with a B.A. in philosophy and a B.A. in psychology (that would be me), a school teacher (sorry, English not physics), a bus driver, a dentist, a city worker, a social worker, and a chiropractor. No scientists.

      • sam

        At least it would not be Scientists
        worried about there careers.

        • bachcole

          Nice catch! In fact, if I were selecting the jury, I would not allow a scientist on the jury if I could help it. I didn’t think of that.

        • bachcole

          Nice catch! In fact, if I were selecting the jury, I would not allow a scientist on the jury if I could help it. I didn’t think of that.

      • sam

        At least it would not be Scientists
        worried about there careers.

      • Brokeeper

        Jury selection:

        “Have you known about or been associated with any LENR or E-Cat knowledge before”
        “Yes”
        “Sorry we can’t select you”

        • bachcole

          Such knowledge or association would be a certain sign of insanity. (:->)

      • Charlie tapp

        Fair enough but still won’t change the outcome when they look at evidence we don’t get to see

      • Charlie tapp

        Also there would be no conclusion in the movie,how would you make part 2,3,4and5 ? Movie makers are like oil company’s!

      • timycelyn

        And there would be expert witnesses out the whazoo…

  • julian becker

    would be quite a movie plot.

  • Michael W Wolf

    If you don’t know it is real yet, then you prove my point below.

  • Gerard McEk

    I expect that AR is looking for money now that IH does not want to deliver. The real secret may be the activation of the fuel. Once activated it must be used within a certain time, otherwise it does not work anymore. Maybe he wants to be the one and only fuel supplier (as long as he can). Maybe crowd funding will be a next move….?

    • bachcole

      I got a lot out of this: http://www.drboblog.com/better-call-saul-andrea-rossi-vs-darden-co/

      Perhaps it will help others.

      • NT

        Very good link Bachcole, I will pass it on to many I know and work with…Thanks, NT

      • Carl Wilson

        Very helpful. For me, special interest in:

        “Rossi has developed a second generation technology that is claimed to capable of producing heat, light and electricity (not only heat)” Doktor Bob

        Going from steam to electricity keeps you to some degree within the BAU frame. Electricity direct (or via EM radiation) busts the current industrial model quickly.

    • Gerard McEk

      PS. I wonder why IH does not want to pay. They must have good reasons and well defendable for court. Maybe AR has once delivered the activated fuel and allowed IH to analys it and use it. Later they wanted to replicate but failed over and over again. (BTW I believe activation happens in a LENR reactor).

      • Billy Jackson

        I suspect its about control or money. Rossi is the inventor. and a company like Dardens either have a tendency to be a silent investor or a controlling interest with active management. I don’t think they want to be silent and passive.. so this has to be about control.. it shouldn’t be about the inability to pay since Cherokee is worth about 2 billion(?)

        Its all a guessing game right now.. we have one side of the story. and its heavily influencing the mindset of those who are outside looking in. (including mine!)

    • bachcole

      Dr. Bob, http://www.drboblog.com/better-call-saul-andrea-rossi-vs-darden-co/ , says that this lawsuit does not mean that Darden et. al. do not want to pay. He calls it a hedge suit, just to make sure that they pay. He said that hedge suits are common. What do I know?
      He also said that I.H. would have to sign off on the test or else their investors would go ape-$hit. But, again, what do I know?

  • Gerard McEk

    I expect that AR is looking for money now that IH does not want to deliver. The real secret may be the activation of the fuel. Once activated it must be used within a certain time, otherwise it does not work anymore. Maybe he wants to be the one and only fuel supplier (as long as he can). Maybe crowd funding will be a next move….?

  • Gerard McEk

    I expect that AR is looking for money now that IH does not want to deliver. The real secret may be the activation of the fuel. Once activated it must be used within a certain time, otherwise it does not work anymore. Maybe he wants to be the one and only fuel supplier (as long as he can). Maybe crowd funding will be a next move….?

    • Gerard McEk

      PS. I wonder why IH does not want to pay. They must have good reasons and well defendable for court. Maybe AR has once delivered the activated fuel and allowed IH to analys it and use it. Later they wanted to replicate but failed over and over again. (BTW I believe activation happens in a LENR reactor).

    • Gerard McEk

      PS. I wonder why IH does not want to pay. They must have good reasons and well defendable for court. Maybe AR has once delivered the activated fuel and allowed IH to analys it and use it. Later they wanted to replicate but failed over and over again. (BTW I believe activation happens in a LENR reactor).

      • Billy Jackson

        I suspect its about control or money. Rossi is the inventor. and a company like Dardens either have a tendency to be a silent investor or a controlling interest with active management. I don’t think they want to be silent and passive.. so this has to be about control.. it shouldn’t be about the inability to pay since Cherokee is worth about 2 billion(?)

        Its all a guessing game right now.. we have one side of the story. and its heavily influencing the mindset of those who are outside looking in. (including mine!)

      • Billy Jackson

        I suspect its about control or money. Rossi is the inventor. and a company like Dardens either have a tendency to be a silent investor or a controlling interest with active management. I don’t think they want to be silent and passive.. so this has to be about control.. it shouldn’t be about the inability to pay since Cherokee is worth about 2 billion(?)

        Its all a guessing game right now.. we have one side of the story. and its heavily influencing the mindset of those who are outside looking in. (including mine!)

    • bachcole

      Dr. Bob, http://www.drboblog.com/better-call-saul-andrea-rossi-vs-darden-co/ , says that this lawsuit does not mean that Darden et. al. do not want to pay. He calls it a hedge suit, just to make sure that they pay. He said that hedge suits are common. What do I know?
      He also said that I.H. would have to sign off on the test or else their investors would go ape-$hit. But, again, what do I know?

    • bachcole

      Dr. Bob, http://www.drboblog.com/better-call-saul-andrea-rossi-vs-darden-co/ , says that this lawsuit does not mean that Darden et. al. do not want to pay. He calls it a hedge suit, just to make sure that they pay. He said that hedge suits are common. What do I know?
      He also said that I.H. would have to sign off on the test or else their investors would go ape-$hit. But, again, what do I know?

  • bachcole

    I got a lot out of this: http://www.drboblog.com/better-call-saul-andrea-rossi-vs-darden-co/

    Perhaps it will help others.

  • bachcole

    I got a lot out of this: http://www.drboblog.com/better-call-saul-andrea-rossi-vs-darden-co/

    Perhaps it will help others.

    • NT

      Very good link Bachcole, I will pass it on to many I know and work with…Thanks, NT

    • NT

      Very good link Bachcole, I will pass it on to many I know and work with…Thanks, NT

    • Carl Wilson

      Very helpful. For me, special interest in:

      “Rossi has developed a second generation technology that is claimed to capable of producing heat, light and electricity (not only heat)” Doktor Bob

      Going from steam to electricity keeps you to some degree within the BAU frame. Electricity direct (or via EM radiation) busts the current industrial model quickly.

    • Carl Wilson

      Very helpful. For me, special interest in:

      “Rossi has developed a second generation technology that is claimed to capable of producing heat, light and electricity (not only heat)” Doktor Bob

      Going from steam to electricity keeps you to some degree within the BAU frame. Electricity direct (or via EM radiation) busts the current industrial model quickly.

  • roseland67

    Hipefully the fuel & ash analysis be included in the report, really exciting times if all expectations are met

  • roseland67

    Hipefully the fuel & ash analysis be included in the report, really exciting times if all expectations are met

  • Carl Wilson

    “IH can even have been approached by more powerful entities, seeing the E-Cat as a threat…” (Mats Lewan)

    I’ve been looking for someone to mention this. Not unlikely somewhere on these threads — already being discussed. I can’t keep up.

    When the orbits of planets don’t make sense, look for the effect of another planet.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I think I started that stuff about government. I was just being paranoid I think, I hope. I really believe this dispute is the usual IP fight.

      • Billy Jackson

        The problem with conspiracy theories is proof. we all have tendencies to believe our own convictions be they false or otherwise.

        • I don’t think asserting US Government involvement is out of left field. We know that SPAWAR, NRL, DIA and NASA at a minimum have awareness of developments. If they started getting reports of COP of 50 from people beyond just Rossi it stands to reason that they would jump on it.

          And the USG may have valid reasons for delaying or suppressing the technology for now.

          • SG

            The folks from SPAWAR, NRL, DIA and NASA are probably monitoring this blog as well. Frank, can you confirm from the website logs?

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well you all said I wacko a few days ago when I said I smelled a rat. But now you sound wacko. lol Just kidding. But I was right about the rat.

          • As Carl Wilson eloquently put up-thread: “When the orbits of planets don’t make sense, look for the effect of another planet.”

          • Michael W Wolf

            You can find my government conspiracy talk on the “waiting for Erv report” thread a few days ago. I think Monday.

          • Brokeeper

            Jury selection:

            “Have you known about or been associated with any LENR or E-Cat knowledge before”
            “Yes”
            “Sorry we can’t select you”

        • Michael W Wolf

          Yep. When people tell me you can’t believe what is on the internet, I tell them it is all on the internet. The good, the bad, and the ugly. You just have to view all sides and decide who you believe. But the truth is there for all to find. How do you think I found LENR? I believe I believe, because I don’t believe the establishment anymore, nor should you folks. I have found that they have an agenda and that agenda is tied to their pockets. Can I get an Amen!? 🙂

          • Josh G

            Amen!

      • sam

        If the US government thinks another
        Country is getting the jump on them
        then they will be involved.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Nah, they are too convinced by all the propaganda. LENR is impossible and will end political and funding careers if they say otherwise.

      • Carl Wilson

        “the usual IP fight”
        But is this the usual IP?

        • Michael W Wolf

          Touhe’

  • Carl Wilson

    “IH can even have been approached by more powerful entities, seeing the E-Cat as a threat…” (Mats Lewan)

    I’ve been looking for someone to mention this. Not unlikely somewhere on these threads — already being discussed. I can’t keep up.

    When the orbits of planets don’t make sense, look for the effect of another planet.

  • Carl Wilson

    “IH can even have been approached by more powerful entities, seeing the E-Cat as a threat…” (Mats Lewan)

    I’ve been looking for someone to mention this. Not unlikely somewhere on these threads — already being discussed. I can’t keep up.

    When the orbits of planets don’t make sense, look for the effect of another planet.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I think I started that stuff about government. I was just being paranoid I think, I hope. I really believe this dispute is the usual IP fight.

      • Billy Jackson

        The problem with conspiracy theories is proof. we all have tendencies to believe our own convictions be they false or otherwise.

      • Billy Jackson

        The problem with conspiracy theories is proof. we all have tendencies to believe our own convictions be they false or otherwise.

        • I don’t think asserting US Government involvement is out of left field. We know that SPAWAR, NRL, DIA and NASA at a minimum have awareness of developments. If they started getting reports of COP of 50 from people beyond just Rossi it stands to reason that they would jump on it.

          And the USG may have valid reasons for delaying or suppressing the technology for now.

          • SG

            The folks from SPAWAR, NRL, DIA and NASA are probably monitoring this blog as well. Frank, can you confirm from the website logs?

          • SG

            The folks from SPAWAR, NRL, DIA and NASA are probably monitoring this blog as well. Frank, can you confirm from the website logs?

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well you all said I wacko a few days ago when I said I smelled a rat. But now you sound wacko. lol Just kidding. But I was right about the rat.

          • As Carl Wilson eloquently put up-thread: “When the orbits of planets don’t make sense, look for the effect of another planet.”

          • Michael W Wolf

            You can find my government conspiracy talk on the “waiting for Erv report” thread a few days ago. I think Monday.

        • I don’t think asserting US Government involvement is out of left field. We know that SPAWAR, NRL, DIA and NASA at a minimum have awareness of developments. If they started getting reports of COP of 50 from people beyond just Rossi it stands to reason that they would jump on it.

          And the USG may have valid reasons for delaying or suppressing the technology for now.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Yep. When people tell me you can’t believe what is on the internet, I tell them it is all on the internet. The good, the bad, and the ugly. You just have to view all sides and decide who you believe. But the truth is there for all to find. How do you think I found LENR? I believe I believe, because I don’t believe the establishment anymore, nor should you folks. I have found that they have an agenda and that agenda is tied to their pockets. Can I get an Amen!? 🙂

          • Josh G

            Amen!

      • sam

        If the US government thinks another
        Country is getting the jump on them
        then they will be involved.
        Listening to the book CD
        Kill Switch.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Nah, they are too convinced by all the propaganda. LENR is impossible and will end political and funding careers if they say otherwise.

      • sam

        If the US government thinks another
        Country is getting the jump on them
        then they will be involved.
        Listening to the book CD
        Kill Switch.

      • Carl Wilson

        “the usual IP fight”
        But is this the usual IP?

        • Michael W Wolf

          Touhe’

      • Carl Wilson

        “the usual IP fight”
        But is this the usual IP?

    • Michael W Wolf

      I think I started that stuff about government. I was just being paranoid I think, I hope. I really believe this dispute is the usual IP fight.

  • Sanjeev

    Yes, could be.
    But the agreement includes everything. Rossi can’t hide anything once he accepts the $10m payment, he is bound.

  • sam

    At least it would not be Scientists
    worried about there careers.

  • Skeptopaths, please explain why Rossi, having landed an amazing and improbable $11.5 M off of his 5 year long con, would live every waking hour inside a shipping container for the next year only to get caught and then file legal documents asserting a COP of 50 and request a trial by jury that would surely expose him to massive legal fees and humiliation in a contest the he would surely lose?

    And why would Penon go along with that?

    They’d be gone after the $1.5M. After the extra $10 M at the latest.

    Scam theory = dead on arrival.

    • Mats002

      Maybe he got high on the con, feeling victorious and wanted more thrill. After a successful $10M scam he believed so hard in his scam skills, he went on even harder, spending 1 year in the container which is a safe known place after long time in jail. Now his mind is in a mental state of being a godlike creature that can do anything to anyone, man or organisation of any size.

      No I think it is more plausible he have the goods. People around him would see signs of mental illness, no one have stated that.

      • Megalomania might be an explanation for a solo artist. But here Penon is involved too and has much at stake. Remember for this scam theory to hold water the Rossi scam mega-team must include not only himself but also Penon and Levi (and possibly others).

        • Billy Jackson

          Only the most hardcore of the skeptics are still sticking with the scam/con thing.. i think that has been laid to rest finally. While some still say its not possible as he claims.. very few deny that something weird is going on.. it may be a matter of semantics they balk at calling it nuclear or so on..

        • Carl Wilson

          All involved getting a cut on the movie rights?

          • Hey why not performance art… or Internet gullibility experiment run by the CIA… or false flag operation by a fossil fuel cabal, the Russians or the Chinese?

            Don’t forget aliens. It’s always aliens.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t want a dime. Then I can’t be accused of supporting it for the money. However, I do have domains, youtube channels, crypto currencies, tied to LENR and other investments for when this becomes a reality and everyone wants what I have. Then I’ll take the money, every single cent. 🙂

      • Michael W Wolf

        Mats, don’t even watse your time on skeptotard sarcasm. Get to work on that book brother. I can’t wait. I want a first edition copy to put in my safe. 🙂

      • Michael W Wolf

        Well IH will have a big problem if they claim ecat under performed. We have a statement from their lead engineer that it over performed. When Fabiani takes the stand, it will be over for IH. Is Fabiani now a double agent? Get a grip man. If you are not going to keep up with all the information, you should not slander when all accounts say you are wrong. Do you always slander people without proof?

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yep. Mills secured 60 million and didn’t run away. These skeptopaths aren’t as smart as they think they are. We should change the moniker to “skeptotards”. And “establotards”.

      • Put up or shut up time for Mills came and went about 5 years ago. Whether he has something is irrelevant because he never ever ever lets it out. He might as well not exist.

        We’re just starting that clock now for Rossi and IH as they recently achieved commercial viability (they say).

        • jousterusa

          This is a largely unheralded yet truly epochal moment in the history of human civilization. Andrea Rossi’s absolute and unflagging dedication to his achievement will lift him into that pantheon of scientists who include Tesla, Edison, Ford, Curie, Salk and a mere handful of others.
          We are privileged one and all to be here at the dawn of a new age of human history.

          • Brokeeper

            Keep ringing that bell, brother!

          • Michael W Wolf

            No man, Ford or maybe Edison apply. Those others used their brilliance, Rossi used his tenacity. Different but still Nobel prize worthy.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Nope. “Now Mills, he’s the one”. a quote from Piantelli, the man with the theory that led to Rossi’s ecat. No better compliment can come from a competitor. I think you are wrong on this one G.

          • However admired Mills is by Piantelli it does not erase decades of product announcements that resulted in nothing.

            Nothing at all.

            He has destroyed his own credibility. If someday soon he releases something that works I will rejoice. Until then I have him on ignore. I will do the same to Rossi if his rush to flood the market with E-Cats devolves into nothing.

            I have produced the same amount of hydrino-powered products as Mills. Perhaps Piantelli thinks highly of me as well.

          • Roland
          • All good.

        • Michael W Wolf

          I am not talking about skeptics. Skepticism is good. Going to the point of slandering people without proof is who I refer as skeptotards. In case you are just a normal skeptical person. I wasn’t referring to you brother.

      • timycelyn

        “Skeptotards”

        I like it……..

        • Michael W Wolf

          Well yea, they believe what they were indoctrinated to believe. They will never contribute to anything new. Their minds have been sealed shut by the establishment and are incapable of thinking of anything new. Soon, they will have no career prospects. That is pretty retarded to me.

  • Skeptopaths, please explain why Rossi, having landed an amazing and improbable $11.5 M off of his 5 year long con, would live every waking hour inside a shipping container for the next year only to get caught and then file legal documents asserting a COP of 50 and request a trial by jury that would surely expose him to massive legal fees and humiliation in a contest that he would surely lose?

    And why would Penon go along with that?

    They’d be gone after the $1.5M. After the extra $10 M at the latest.

    Scam theory = dead on arrival.

    • Mats002

      Maybe he got high on the con, feeling victorious and wanted more thrill. After a successful $10M scam he believed so hard in his scam skills, he went on even harder, spending 1 year in the container which is a safe known place after long time in jail. Now his mind is in a mental state of being a godlike creature that can do anything to anyone, man or organisation of any size.

      No I think it is more plausible he have the goods. People around him would see signs of mental illness, no one have stated that.

      • Megalomania might be an explanation for a solo artist. But here Penon is involved too and has much at stake. Remember for this scam theory to hold water the Rossi scam mega-team must include not only himself but also Penon and Levi (and possibly others).

        • Billy Jackson

          Only the most hardcore of the skeptics are still sticking with the scam/con thing.. i think that has been laid to rest finally. While some still say its not possible as he claims.. very few deny that something weird is going on.. it may be a matter of semantics they balk at calling it nuclear or so on..

        • Carl Wilson

          All involved getting a cut on the movie rights?

          • Hey why not performance art… or Internet gullibility experiment run by the CIA… or false flag operation by a fossil fuel cabal, the Russians or the Chinese?

            Don’t forget aliens. It’s always aliens.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t want a dime. Then I can’t be accused of supporting it for the money. However, I do have domains, youtube channels, crypto currencies, tied to LENR and other investments for when this becomes a reality and everyone wants what I have. Then I’ll take the money, every single cent. 🙂

      • Michael W Wolf

        Mats, don’t even watse your time on skeptotard sarcasm. Get to work on that book brother. I can’t wait. I want a first edition copy to put in my safe. 🙂

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yep. Mills secured 60 million and didn’t run away. These skeptopaths aren’t as smart as they think they are. We should change the moniker to “skeptotards”. And “establotards”.

      • Put up or shut up time for Mills came and went about 5 years ago. Whether he has something is irrelevant because he never ever ever lets it out. He might as well not exist.

        We’re just starting that clock now for Rossi and IH as they recently achieved commercial viability (they say).

        • Michael W Wolf

          Nope. “Now Mills, he’s the one”. a quote from Piantelli, the man with the theory that led to Rossi’s ecat. No better compliment can come from a competitor. I think you are wrong on this one G.

          • However admired Mills is by Piantelli it does not erase decades of product announcements that resulted in nothing.

            Nothing at all.

            He has destroyed his own credibility. If someday soon he releases something that works I will rejoice. Until then I have him on ignore. I will do the same to Rossi if his rush to flood the market with E-Cats devolves into nothing.

            I have produced the same amount of hydrino-powered products as Mills. Perhaps Piantelli thinks highly of me as well.

          • Roland
          • All good.

        • Michael W Wolf

          I am not talking about skeptics. Skepticism is good. Going to the point of slandering people without proof is who I refer as skeptotards. In case you are just a normal skeptical person. I wasn’t referring to you brother.

      • timycelyn

        “Skeptotards”

        I like it……..

        • Michael W Wolf

          Well yea, they believe what they were indoctrinated to believe. They will never contribute to anything new. Their minds have been sealed shut by the establishment and are incapable of thinking of anything new. Soon, they will have no career prospects. That is pretty retarded to me.

  • Skeptopaths, please explain why Rossi, having landed an amazing and improbable $11.5 M off of his 5 year long con, would live every waking hour inside a shipping container for the next year only to get caught and then file legal documents asserting a COP of 50 and request a trial by jury that would surely expose him to massive legal fees and humiliation in a contest that he would surely lose?

    And why would Penon go along with that?

    They’d be gone after the $1.5M. After the extra $10 M at the latest.

    Scam theory = dead on arrival.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Why don’t you offer to pay for this “independent” test that everyone will agree is competent and is proof positive if successful?

  • Michael W Wolf

    Well that is very reasonable brother.

  • uDevil

    I hope Mats’ optimistic view turns out to be right. Rather than legal documents, I’d prefer reading a convincing technical report.

  • Charlie tapp

    Fair enough but still won’t change the outcome when they look at evidence we don’t get to see

  • jousterusa

    This is a largely unheralded yet truly epochal moment in the history of human civilization. Andrea Rossi’s absolute and unflagging dedication to his achievement will lift him into that pantheon of scientists who include Tesla, Edison, Ford, Curie, Salk and a mere handful of others.
    We are privileged one and all to be here at the dawn of a new age of human history.

    • Brokeeper

      Keep ringing that bell, brother!

    • Michael W Wolf

      I don’t know man, Ford or maybe Edison apply. Those others used their brilliance, Rossi used his tenacity. Different but still Nobel prize worthy.

  • Guest

    So to recap:

    1) Details of report emerge –> COP >6 and possibly in range of 50+

    However…

    2) ERV confirmed as Fabio Penon, former compatriot of Rossi and of potentially questionable independence

    3) Customer confirmed as JM Products, a company established by Rossi’s lawyer/President of Leonardo Henry Johnson (not independent, no apparent record of having produced or sold any products)

    4) IH has apparently refused to confirm validity of test by nature of not making final payment to Rossi.

    Below is interpretation:

    How can this be viewed as anything but an unmitigated disaster for Rossi’s credibility?

    Points 2/3/4 above mean the positive results from Point 1 likely can’t be trusted under current circumstances. Not to say they are meaningless, just untrustworthy at the moment. Plus, any hope the customer might shed some light / confirm results via bills, etc is dashed as the customer appears to be Rossi’s own shell company and may never have actually been in the business of doing anything with the heat.

    Looking specifically at the lawsuit, the IP theft allegations can likely be ignored based on a close reading of the License Agreement (see my earlier comments for details). What this comes down to is IH didn’t pay what the contract said they should, and courts will have to decide whether there was a good reason for that.

    The glimmer of hope that I have is actually driven by Mats’ comments that IH has been seeking help replicating Rossi. If you look at the License Agreement again, you’ll see that after the $10M payment Rossi was supposed to transfer all IP and know-how to the IH team including the fuel catalyst recipe. Per Matt’s information, it seems IH may believe something was left out and/or that they are having trouble replicating Rossi’s results on their own. Therefore, maybe they are withholding payment because Rossi hasn’t shared everything, not because they don’t think it works…

    That is the only scenario I can imagine where IH believes Rossi has a working technology but would be hesitant to pay the man. $89M is a lot to pay for something you can’t replicate, but peanuts to pay for a working technology. I hope this is a case where Rossi has just withheld from IH, vs IH firmly believing he has achieved nothing – because at the end of the day that can be resolved between them.

    • Tom59

      Another recap:
      Scam is no longer considered a reasonable option
      The door to unlimited energy has been pushed open
      Involved parties are fighting to get their hands on the technology
      Rossi is mastering the game to keep the strings and stay relevant
      The train is picking up speed

    • Bruce__H

      Good analysis.

      One interpretation that is crying out for attention here and fits the facts as you have outlined them is that Rossi’s mechanisms don’t work because they never have. IH were a bit gullible to pay $10 Million but not so gullible as to pay $89 Million without actually being able to reproduce the effect themselves. Rossi, now caught out, launches a lawsuit to muddy the waters before IH starts complaining publicly that the E-cat technology is empty.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Well IH will have a big problem if they claim ecat under performed. We have a statement from their lead engineer that it over performed. When Fabiani takes the stand, it will be over for IH. Is Fabiani now a double agent? Get a grip man. If you are not going to keep up with all the information, you should not slander when all accounts say you are wrong. Do you always slander people without proof?

      • Guest

        How is any of the above slander or even incorrect?

        I mean seriously, look at my comments, I guessed both Penon and JM Products as ERV and Customer over a week ago just by doing my homework and connecting dots. Do you really think I’m not keeping up with all the information?

        BTW, they don’t even need to prove that it under performed, just that Rossi didn’t provide them the know how (required after the $10M payment) to be able to replicate!

        Who knows, maybe there are absolutely no issues with the plant itself and this is all just because Rossi didn’t share the full recipe!

    • Ged

      Got some apparent errors there.

      1. The customer is JMC, that is http://chemicals.matthey.com/ , as stated in the filing for the stock name, JMC, and also headquarters (UK). It was Vortex folks who were speculating it was a different company, but that does not fit the details of the filing, only Johnson Matthey does.

      2. According to the filing, IH agreed on Penon back during the 24h test way long ago–that is, he is not a compatriot of Rossi’s, but a dual agreed on person that IH also picked from the start. IH also agreed on all testing methodologies.

      We’ll see how this data evolves, but that is what is known right now.

      Edit: Well, data evolves fast! IH has finally spoken, looks like we can forget most of this stuff then. What fun!

      Edit2: Or not? Their press release is contradictory to their own previous statements, and statements to their shareholders/investors. This is really weird. But it is vague enough.

      • Guest

        No, the customer is not Johnson Mathey.

        The customer is J.M. Products Inc of Boca Raton, FL (formerly JM Chemical Products). Both companies were set up by Henry Johnson (Rossi’s lawyer and president of Leonardo Corporation). Look at the last page (25) of the License Agreement, which defines JMC as JM Chemical Products.

        JM Chemical Products was converted to JM Products Inc. in 2014. In a Rossi patent filing (linked in one of my earlier comments), Rossi included a letter written by Henry Johnson on JM Products Inc letterhead explaining that a picture entered into evidence was taken at their factory (as supporting proof that they were selling the 1MW units)…

        JM Products is a shell company run by Rossi’s guy. There don’t appear to be any records of JM Products, or JM Chemical Products, ever having actually sold a product or filing for income. It is very likely that nothing was ever created from the heat that was produced, and utility records are likely meaningless.

    • “2) ERV confirmed as Fabio Penon, former compatriot of Rossi and of potentially questionable independence”

      3) Customer confirmed as JM Products, a company established by Rossi’s
      lawyer/President of Leonardo Henry Johnson (not independent, no apparent
      record of having produced or sold any products)”

      As I said elsewhere, I have no problem with the company being created for or around the time of the test. I always found the idea of an existing business participating in a year long LENR device test as crazy talk.

      And IH was happy with and approved using Penon and the test site company so that’s not something that they can now complain about. Nor should we imo.

      • Guest

        I guess the main point though is that in this case where people have raised questions around the ERV and IH is apparently unwilling to stand behind the results, we can’t even fall back on the word of the customer since that customer was essentially Rossi himself.

        That’s bad because questions about calibration of the testing, etc. were bound to appear and the best defense would have been – company XYZ produced 1234 widgets LY over the same time period, required 1234 units of energy in at a cost of $Y, TY over the same period they produced the same 1234 widgets, but only used 123 units of energy in at a cost of $0.Y.

        That supporting evidence means that we’re still stuck in the world of questioning how accurate the measurements were.

    • Josh G

      Where did you read that Penon is a former compatriot of Rossi’s?

      • Guest

        He’s been Rossi’s go to guy for other independent validations in the past (I believe in the context of preparing data for other potential investments), his report is linked under Frank’s “third pary e-cat tests” above. So they clearly have a prior business relationship.

        oh, and I guess compatriot technically just means they’re from the same country (which they are), but I think my point is clear that they just have had a previous business relationship.

        • Josh G

          Well, IH and Rossi hired him to do the 24-hour validation prior to IH’s investment in Rossi’s technology. So they appear to have as much of a prior relationship with IH as they do with Rossi, and that relationship is a business one. But the way you state it makes it sound like he and Rossi are old buddies or something. Very misleading.

  • timycelyn

    And there would be expert witnesses out the whazoo…

  • Sanjeev

    Renzo:
    Yes, Leonardo Corporation has the financial resources necessary to make the massive production we need.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Looks like he got it from somewhere else.

    • Michael W Wolf

      well 10 million is enough to propagate itself when you have a tech like ecat.

  • Sanjeev

    Renzo:
    Yes, Leonardo Corporation has the financial resources necessary to make the massive production we need.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Looks like he got it from somewhere else.

    • Michael W Wolf

      But he’ll have to prove IH breached the contract in order to go forward without IH I think. At least in IH licensed areas.

      • US_Citizen71

        Lack of payment should be proof enough if the report shows a high enough COP.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Not if IH can make a case that Rossi breached the contract first, Right?

          • US_Citizen71

            That is true, but I am not sure how he would have done that. They would have called him on the lack of complete formula before the test started. They delayed the start for over year, plenty of time to make an ECat or 12. Rossi alluded to many things on JoNP but never stated much as fact, so I can’t believe that they have him on breach of NDA. I don’t see any other ways he would have breached it.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well If they don’t have the money and cheroke is not responsible for said money, then they may have found something Rossi said that could give them an out. A court case is cheaper than the 89 million if they can win. Remember it is what you can convince a jury of not the facts. Remember OJ? Anything can happen really. But rossi has no choice.

    • Michael W Wolf

      well 10 million is enough to propagate itself when you have a tech like ecat.

  • Tom59

    Since the update about the publication of the report I have a picture in the Ad section on my screen showing Obama smiling. Coincidence??

    • Michael W Wolf

      Obama and his people have too much to lose. We should look at them as enemies of LENR I think.

  • Tom59

    Since the update about the publication of the report I have a picture in the Ad section on my screen showing Obama smiling. Coincidence??

    • Michael W Wolf

      Obama and his people have too much to lose. We should look at them as enemies of LENR I think.

  • Barbierir

    I can’t remember if Rossi stated in which country he’s putting up the factory? Did he? I don’t think he would do it in the USA or other area that where under IH license, not until the lawsuit gets to a favourable conclusion. Sweden seems a more likely candidate.

    • Michael W Wolf

      He doesn’t have safety certification in the US. Yet.

      • The only currently applicable ‘Occupational and Health’ standards are for nuclear safety, unless he can get away with using fuel cell standards for e-cat X. Most likely, new standards will need to be written in the US and in Europe, which will take some time and a lot of negotiation.

        The most relevant agencies are the British Standards Institute (BSI) and the German Institute for Standardisation (DIN), both of which are acceptable in most of the rest of Europe, although most countries have their own equivalents. DIN standards now include a text that refers specifically to plant with higher than usual safety risks such as prototypes (BetrSichV).

        The UK Health and Safety Executive have published what is actually a very useful guide to all this, aimed specifically at CEOs:

        https://docs.google.com/viewer?docex=1&url=http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr535.pdf

        The emphasis of the above is on exactly how the sky will fall on non-conformers, but the basic information is good. The paperwork mountain is at least as challenging as the technical task of perfecting the designs for a first cold fusion product for the market.

  • Tom59

    Another recap:
    Scam is no longer considered a reasonable option
    The door to unlimited energy has been pushed open
    Involved parties are fighting to get their hands on the technology
    Rossi is mastering the game to keep the strings and stay relevant
    The train is picking up speed

  • US_Citizen71

    Lack of payment should be proof enough if the report shows a high enough COP.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Not if IH can make a case that Rossi breached the contract first, Right?

      • US_Citizen71

        That is true, but I am not sure how he would have done that. They would have called him on the lack of complete formula before the test started. They delayed the start for over year, plenty of time to make an ECat or 12. Rossi allude to many things on JoNP but never stated much as fact, so I can’t believe that they have him on breach of NDA. I don’t see any other ways he would have breached it.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Well If they don’t have the money and cheroke is not responsible for said money, then they may have found something Rossi said that could give them an out. A court case is cheaper than the 89 million if they can win. Remember it is what you can convince a jury of not the facts. Remember OJ? Anything can happen really. But rossi has no choice.

  • Welp. Bad news gang. Industrial Heat says they can’t validate: “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success”

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industrial-heat-statement-on-meritless-litigation-from-leonardo-corporation-and-andrea-rossi-300248066.html?tc=eml_cleartime

    Worst possible turn of events.

    • Heath

      Oops…

    • SG

      What else would they say? Sort of belies their actions of filing their own patent based on Mr. Rossi’s underlying invention. But they have been forced into a corner, and they are now going to lash out with everything they have.

    • Barbierir

      So the PR claims that as far as they know the Ecat isn’t proved working. Let’s wait for the ERV report

      • So the report will be released and will be astounding. There will probably not be any glaring weaknesses to it that points to measurement errors of a factor of 50 (I mean, come on). Penon and I guess others (West and Fabiani) will have signed off on it. But Industrial Heat is saying nope, not accepted.

        Unless we are told why, that leaves us where exactly?

        • Barbierir

          The PR doesn’t square with their previous actions. Now if Rossi publishes the report they will have to counter it by finding glaring errors

    • Ged

      Well then! That is what we’ve been waiting for to hear.

    • Stephen

      If they thought it was invalid, why on earth did they try to submit a patent on it last year? Did I miss something?

      • Not to mention fork over $10 M after a 24 hour validation. Inexplicable behavior by IH.

    • Josh G

      What utter hogwash. I guess that’s why they paid $11.5 million so far after doing their own due diligence and tests on the e-cat and filing patents. Imagine how Woodford capital and the Chinese feel about their investments in IH…

      • Ged

        Hm, it is odd. 3 years, and yet they kept going so long, while knowing every step of the way the performance of the plant? Why not just cancel and stop the project? Well, I am sure they’ll counter file and we’ll get a Lot more data from that.

        • Josh G

          Where did you read that Penon is a former compatriot of Rossi’s?

        • Michael W Wolf

          They should have had that lawsuit before the end of the ecat test. To not file is bad for them.

    • NT

      Looks like we are headed for a court mandated and overseen public demonstration by Rossi of his e-cat capabilities as used in the one year test at least…

      • Michael W Wolf

        Like someone said it will take two weeks to prove them wrong.

        • Fibber McGourlick

          notice they didn’t countersue for fraud.

          • SG

            I don’t think they have filed their response yet. My guess is that IH will allege fraud, breach, possibly even defamation.

          • Omega Z

            I don’t think filling a lawsuit in itself can be claimed as defamation.
            Up until filling this suit, Rossi has said nothing derogatory about any of those involved.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Well they better be ready for their engineer’s testimony. Fabiani works for them. And after three years they felt the need to apply for a co-inventor patent? bull crap. And they gave 11.5 million to said scammer? That means they are too incompetent or lying.

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, worst possible. But was expected. It has a bright side though.
      This will require Rossi to prove that the plant works, which will be a public proof, open and transparent, not hidden under NDAs and secret agreements.
      The agreement is void, so a new license can be granted to a better party.
      Whatever happens, happens for good.

      • NT

        I agree Sanjeeev, everthing may be out in the open, probably as Rossi now prefers…

      • Ethel Mermaid

        Actually, this lawsuit may not hinge on the Ecat working, but just on the language in the contract and whatever the report says. If IH said that they will pay upon receipt of a favorable report, whether they could replicate or not may be a moot point.

        • Sanjeev

          Yes, may be, because the agreement requires that they must pay based on the report and report only. No other condition is needed as far as I can see. They can’t hold the payment if some other tests failed or they don’t trust the ERV.

    • artefact
    • Billy Jackson

      Would not the release of the report by the 3rd party report invalidate the claim that it was never validated? if Rossi has signed copies of all 3 reports.. IH is going to get hung out to dry. I Do want to state one thing.. while this may be about control and money.. for Cherokee there is far more at stake than 89 million. If Darden is caught up in a fraud or scam of his own initiation or even out right lies. he stands to loose control of 2 billion dollars in investments. Loss of confidence in him will lead to investors demanding their money back. You can bet he’s coming out swinging with the best PR money can buy.

      • If the ERV(s) that they both paid for as a neutral submits a report that says it works to the tune of 50x, then what is IH’s problem?

        I’m guessing but it seems like they’ve been trying to replicate with other engineers and can’t do it. Maybe that’s the issue for them? They don’t believe the report because they can’t make it work outside of Rossi’s container?

        • Michael W Wolf

          Just like I said. They can only make a kitty cat.

          • NT

            But a working kitty cat proves Rossi has the goods. So they blew trillions even knowing his stuff works – does not compute in my book. something else going on here?

      • Michael W Wolf

        I don’t think cheroke is on the hook, and it explains the subsidiaries IH set up.

        • LilyLover

          You are right, that’s why the IH was set up.
          BUT
          Internet will make it next to impossible that Cherokkee will not lose customers.
          The first time callers to fidelity will start asking “Is Cherokkee in my portfolio? Delete them.” The news will spread. Cherokkee is over.
          Bye immorals.

      • cashmemorz

        Another possibility is that some of the more powerful investors are using Cherokee and IH as a tool for the investors own use to slow down LENR.

      • Omega Z

        “2 billion dollars in investments”
        Those are Brown field investments or assets hard to move and recover money from.
        So maybe, they just couldn’t pull $89 million together in time.

    • LuFong

      Could mean they have not been able to replicate Rossi’s E-Cat. As Mats Lewan has said, this could relate to the fuel. What I don’t understand is they had Rossi right there. They could have just asked Rossi to show them how they do it. This is assuming that the fuel is part of the Rossi IP in the agreement.

      • The agreement sets up a mechanism for acceptance or failure. If the report indicates success then they have to pay up. Not doing so says they don’t believe the report they paid half for, which is strange.

        They may be doing this because they can’t replicate on their own and think they are being taken to the cleaners?

        Or doing so for ulterior motives?

        • Ged

          When they file the defense to Rossi’s suit, we should learn a lot more. Hopefully this’ll happen soon.

        • LuFong

          Yes that’s what I think. But it’s a big mystery to me why they could not replicate in-house. I would certainly want to be able to do that and the contract looks like it’s required. It seems that Rossi would have been at their disposal to guide them through the process.

          I have to admit I’m not entirely surprised that they could not replicate in-house. Rossi may not have disclosed this secret.

          • LilyLover

            The thing is Rossi only taught them the low Temp ECat. They wanted Hot Cat and now want ECatX, else no money to Rossi. Bad boys.

          • SG

            But they had a license for all of those improvements. Mr. Rossi even said the EcatX was covered by the IH agreement. I don’t see this as a motivating factor to not pay the money to Rossi.

          • cashmemorz

            This would mean that IH did not do their due diligence regarding what the LENR receipe was before taking on AR as an employee or partner or licensor that AR is to them.

    • kdk

      I find it hard to believe that Woodford handed over $50 million or whatever to them w/o some due diligence…

      • SG

        Woodward stated publicly that they only made the investment after two years of due diligence.

  • Welp. Bad news gang. Industrial Heat says they can’t validate: “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success”

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industrial-heat-statement-on-meritless-litigation-from-leonardo-corporation-and-andrea-rossi-300248066.html?tc=eml_cleartime

    Worst possible turn of events.

    • Heath

      Oops…

    • SG

      What else would they say? Sort of belies their actions of filing their own patent based on Mr. Rossi’s underlying invention. But they have been forced into a corner, and they are now going to lash out with everything they have.

    • Barbierir

      So the PR claims that as far as they know the Ecat isn’t proved working. Let’s wait for the ERV report

      • So the report will be released and will be astounding. There will probably not be any glaring weaknesses to it that points to measurement errors of a factor of 50 (I mean, come on). Penon and I guess others (West and Fabiani) will have signed off on it. But Industrial Heat is saying nope, not accepted.

        Unless we are told why, that leaves us where exactly?

        • crazy nowhere?

        • Barbierir

          The PR doesn’t square with their previous actions. Now if Rossi publishes the report they will have to counter it by finding glaring errors

    • Ged

      Well then! That is what we’ve been waiting for to hear.

    • Stephen

      If they thought it was invalid, why on earth did they try to submit a patent on it last year? Did I miss something?

      • Not to mention fork over $10 M after a 24 hour validation. Inexplicable behavior by IH.

    • Josh G

      What utter hogwash. I guess that’s why they paid $11.5 million so far after doing their own due diligence and tests on the e-cat and filing patents. Imagine how Woodford capital and the Chinese feel about their investments in IH…

      • Ged

        Hm, it is odd. 3 years, and yet they kept going so long, while knowing every step of the way the performance of the plant? Why not just cancel and stop the project? Well, I am sure they’ll counter file and we’ll get a Lot more data from that.

        • Michael W Wolf

          They should have had that lawsuit before the end of the ecat test. To not file is bad for them.

    • NT

      Looks like we are headed for a court mandated and overseen public demonstration by Rossi of his e-cat capabilities as used in the one year test at least…

      • Michael W Wolf

        Like someone said it will take two weeks to prove them wrong.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Well they better be ready for their engineer’s testimony. Fabiani works for them. And after three years they felt the need to apply for a co-inventor patent? bull crap. And they gave 11.5 million to said scammer? That means they are too incompetent or lying.

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, worst possible. But was expected. It has a bright side though.
      This will require Rossi to prove that the plant works, which will be a public proof, open and transparent, not hidden under NDAs and secret agreements.
      The agreement is void, so a new license can be granted to a better party.
      Whatever happens, happens for good.

      • NT

        I agree Sanjeeev, everthing may be out in the open, probably as Rossi now prefers…

    • artefact
    • Billy Jackson

      Would not the release of the report by the 3rd party report invalidate the claim that it was never validated? if Rossi has signed copies of all 3 reports.. IH is going to get hung out to dry. I Do want to state one thing.. while this may be about control and money.. for Cherokee there is far more at stake than 89 million. If Darden is caught up in a fraud or scam of his own initiation or even out right lies. he stands to loose control of 2 billion dollars in investments. Loss of confidence in him will lead to investors demanding their money back. You can bet he’s coming out swinging with the best PR money can buy.

      • If the ERV(s) that they both paid for as neutral submits a report that says it works to the tune of 50x, then what is IH’s problem?

        I’m guessing but it seems like they’ve been trying to replicate with other engineers and can’t do it. Maybe that’s the issue for them? They don’t believe the report because they can’t make it work outside of Rossi’s container?

        • Michael W Wolf

          Just like I said. They can only make a kitty cat.

          • NT

            But a working kitty cat proves Rossi has the goods. So they blew trillions even knowing his stuff works – does not compute in my book. something else going on here?

        • Guest

          And if they can’t replicate, then their claim will be that Rossi broke the contract.

          Per the License agreement – after the $10M payment he was supposed to transfer all IP, know how, and fuel recipes to IH to enable them to replicate.

          If he hasn’t done that, then regardless of the results of the test/report Rossi hasn’t fulfilled the contract.

      • Michael W Wolf

        I don’t think cheroke is on the hook, and it explains the subsidiaries IH set up.

        • LilyLover

          You are right, that’s why the IH was set up.
          BUT
          Internet will make it next to impossible that Cherokkee will not lose customers.
          The first time callers to fidelity will start asking “Is Cherokkee in my portfolio? Delete them.” The news will spread. Cherokkee is over.
          Bye immorals.

      • cashmemorz

        Another possibility is that some of the more powerful investors are using Cherokee and IH as a tool for the investors own use to slow down LENR.

      • Omega Z

        “2 billion dollars in investments”
        Those are Brown field investments or assets hard to move and recover money from.
        So maybe, they just couldn’t pull $89 million together in time.

    • kdk

      I find it hard to believe that Woodford handed over $50 million or whatever to them w/o some due diligence…

      • SG

        Woodward stated publicly that they only made the investment after two years of due diligence.

  • Ged

    Got some apparent errors there.

    1. The customer is JMC, that is http://chemicals.matthey.com/ , as stated in the filing for the stock name, JMC, and also headquarters (UK). It was Vortex folks who were speculating it was a different company, but that does not fit the details of the filing, only Johnson Matthey does.

    2. According to the filing, IH agreed on Penon back during the 24h test way long ago–that is, he is not a compatriot of Rossi’s, but a dual agreed on person that IH also picked from the start. IH also agreed on all testing methodologies.

    We’ll see how this data evolves, but that is what is known right now.

    Edit: Well, data evolves fast! IH has finally spoken, looks like we can forget most of this stuff then. What fun!

  • Barbierir

    Is any journalist going to find and interview the owner of the factory where the test took place? A comment about his energy bill would be very welcome now

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yea, where is said reactor? Surely IH would not take a reactor that didn’t work. And it could be considered tampering with the evidence. Where that reactor is now is key. Will it disappear?

      • SG

        It is a fair point. Probably one of the reasons why Leonardo moved so quickly to file the suit. Tampering with evidence is a big no no.

      • Barbierir

        According to Rossi it’s still doing its work in the customer factory

        • NT

          Lets hope so as any judge would want the court to see that in real life operation doing what Rossi claims it does – proving LC and Rossi’s case…

    • Bob Tivnan

      The customer will likely be subpoenad to testify in the lawsuit. I doubt we will hear from them before then.

  • Barbierir

    Is any journalist going to find and interview the owner of the factory where the test took place? A comment about his energy bill would be very welcome now

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yea, where is said reactor? Surely IH would not take a reactor that didn’t work. And it could be considered tampering with the evidence. Where that reactor is now is key. Will it disappear?

      • SG

        It is a fair point. Probably one of the reasons why Leonardo moved so quickly to file the suit. Tampering with evidence is a big no no.

      • Barbierir

        According to Rossi it’s still doing its work in the customer factory

        • NT

          Lets hope so as any judge would want the court to see that in real life operation doing what Rossi claims it does – proving LC and Rossi’s case…

    • Bob Tivnan

      The customer will likely be subpoenad to testify in the lawsuit. I doubt we will hear from them before then.

    • Guest

      the customer is JM Products Inc, a Boca Raton company set up by Henry Johnson (who is also president of Leonardo Corp).

      Per the license agreement the 1MW unit is owned by IH, therefore it’s probably in their possession.

  • Reminder: when IH bought the E-Cat IP license they said this: “6. In addition, performance validation tests were conducted in the presence of IH personnel and certified by an independent expert.”

    So that’s one gate. That was Jan 2014. Shortly after positive results from ITR.

    Then they had someone (ERV Penon, assumed) test for 24 hours. Got a thumbs up and forked over $10M. That was early 2015 at the start of the test.

    Then they had Fabiani sittting in there with Rossi all day and giving glowing interviews about performance.

    Then they received a report that told them COP of 50 as a result of year long careful videotaped measurements.

    Then they refused to pay, got sued and just claimed it never worked at all.

    W…….. T……… F………

    • Ged

      When you put it that way, it is curiouser and curiouser. The 3 year statement really sticks out the most to me, as well as the nonspecific nature of their rebuttle. It seems a standard “nuh uh!” response, along with the obligatory “they were the ones who breached contract!” quip despite being the defendant.

      I hope IH files a defense soon. Then we’ll know all they have. But yes, their previous statements are clearly contradictory to there little press release.

    • Omega Z

      Then they had someone (ERV Penon, assumed) test for 24 hours. Got a thumbs up and forked over $10M.

      The test was in 2013.
      https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4265

  • Reminder: when IH bought the E-Cat IP license they said this: “6. In addition, performance validation tests were conducted in the presence of IH personnel and certified by an independent expert.”

    So that’s one gate. That was Jan 2014. Shortly after positive results from ITR.

    Then they had someone (ERV Penon, assumed) test for 24 hours. Got a thumbs up and forked over $10M. That was early 2015 at the start of the test.

    Then they had Fabiani sittting in there with Rossi all day and giving glowing interviews about performance.

    Then they received a report that told them COP of 50 as a result of year long careful videotaped measurements.

    Then they refused to pay, got sued and just claimed it never worked at all.

    W…….. T……… F………

    • Ged

      When you put it that way, it is curiouser and curiouser. The 3 year statement really sticks out the most to me, as well as the nonspecific nature of their rebuttle. It seems a standard “nuh uh!” response, along with the obligatory “they were the ones who breached contract!” quip despite being the defendant.

      I hope IH files a defense soon. Then we’ll know all they have. But yes, their previous statements are clearly contradictory to there little press release.

    • Guest

      I think IH’s comment reveals where this is going. As part of the License Agreement Rossi was to have transferred all IP, know how, and fuel recipe to IH after the payment of $10M.

      IH is essentially saying that Rossi has not transferred the know how and that they can’t replicate.

      This is their grounds for not paying. They don’t accuse Rossi of fraud, they don’t out and out say that the thing doesn’t work, just that they can’t substantiate (i.e. replicate the results). One possible explanation is that the results aren’t real, but the other is just that he’s held something back.

      If that’s the case, then the 1 year test results probably don’t even matter legally as Rossi may have breached that part of the contract first. Rossi hasn’t adequately shown them how to do it themselves and achieve the same results, therefore they are withholding payment.

      • Jonnyb

        I’m sure we were told that E-Cat units were made independent of Rossi, so they must of had the knowledge?

        • Guest

          Where were we told that? IH has not said a single word about the test, so if anything we could have been told that by Rossi himself, and for the moment that’s not good enough for me.

          Who knows what the truth is?

          But, even if IH made the units, it was Rossi that sat in their with them every day for a year, what if there’s something special he has to do to make them operate? If that’s the case then someone else could have made the units, but they could still not work unless Rossi is there to do whatever he has to do.

          Right now the “Rossi withholding details” theory is the only one that seems to jive with IH making first 2 payments, but not the 3rd (only one to have occurred after Rossi’s contractual obligation to teach them how to replicate), and with saying the could not substantiate (e.g. replicate) his claims while not accusing him of fraud.

          • Omega Z

            DGT arrangement fell apart because they couldn’t come up with the money.
            Possibly IH is also short of the $89 Million…

          • Jonnyb

            Does the £50 million Woodford gave not equate roughly to $89m? O.K. a bit short but close.

          • Omega Z

            I believe it was $50 Million or a little more.
            A few years ago, Darden had trouble coming up with $20 million in an ongoing project. He was bailed out by Donald Trump. That’s the problem with brown field projects. You can sink a ton of money in them real quick and take many years to get any back out. Many are at risk of negative returns.

            Back in time I looked this up because the buzz about $2 Billion in Cherokee assets. Assets being the key word. Not cash

          • Jonnyb

            Hi Guest, Yeh Andrea mentions this also in his reply posted on E-Cat world today. IH have made units independently. Personally I believe him.

          • Eyedoc

            But the EcatX is might be the problem….developed while under contract

        • Robert Dorr

          Rossi said quite a while back that he was extremely happy because he had given someone (I assume it was I.H.) the information on how to build an e-cat and that they followed his instructions and were successful. He went on quite a bit about how excited he was that someone besides himself could now build working e-cats. If I remember this was maybe 12-18 months ago.

      • Eyedoc

        I think you have nailed it….especially if the contract says “current” IP (which will include the EcatX) and also AR was under contract at the time of the X development.

    • Omega Z

      Then they had someone (ERV Penon, assumed) test for 24 hours. Got a thumbs up and forked over $10M.

      The test was in 2013.
      https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4265

  • Fibber McGourlick

    notice they didn’t countersue for fraud.

    • SG

      I don’t think they have filed their response yet. My guess is that IH will allege fraud, breach, possibly even defamation.

      • Omega Z

        I don’t think filling a lawsuit in itself can be claimed as defamation.
        Up until filling this suit, Rossi has said nothing derogatory about any of those involved.

  • Jonnyb

    I’m sure we were told that E-Cat units were made independent of Rossi, so they must of had the knowledge?

  • sam

    I will tune in tomorrow for the next
    episode of this soap opera Frank.
    At least your ratings should increase
    because of all of this.

  • sam

    I will tune in tomorrow for the next
    episode of this soap opera Frank.
    At least your ratings should increase
    because of all of this.

  • Josh G

    Well, IH and Rossi hired him to do the 24-hour validation prior to IH’s investment in Rossi’s technology. So they appear to have as much of a prior relationship with IH as they do with Rossi, and that relationship is a business one. But the way you state it makes it sound like he and Rossi are old buddies or something. Very misleading.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Basically, there are two possibilities: Either Rossi’s plant worked as defined in the contract, or it didn’t. In the first case, IH could claim that Rossi withheld information which would have been necessary to replicate the effect in their own laboratories. However, in the second case they might have problems to defend their position. According to #65 of the suit IH agreed with the test protocol. Provided that this information is correct and the protocol was erroneous, it would have been their mistake to accept it. I guess they had only a chance if they prove that the test was not carried out exactly as described, or that the report has been manipulated. So we have the paradoxical situation that Rossi could lose the litigation if his technology works, but succeed in the opposite case.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Wrong thread, sorry.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Basically, there are two possibilities: Either Rossi’s plant worked as defined in the contract, or it didn’t. In the first case, IH could claim that Rossi withheld information which would have been necessary to replicate the effect in their own laboratories. However, in the second case they might have problems to defend their position. According to #65 of the suit IH agreed with the test protocol. Provided that this information is correct and the protocol was erroneous, it would have been their mistake to accept it. I guess they had only a chance if they prove that the test was not carried out exactly as described, or that the report has been manipulated. So we have the paradoxical situation that Rossi could lose the litigation if his technology works, but succeed in the opposite case.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Wrong thread, sorry.

  • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

    I see something fishy here and we are with two options. It works – then IH lies. It doesnt work – then Rossi lies.

    According to all the data, to me, see that Rossi lies is doubtful. No one would pay 10 million without proper research. Also the fundings from Cherokee support my theory.

    But there is something that came to my mind if we add all the facts.
    IH filled a patent – No one would fill a patent of something that doesnt work.
    Rossi said that they broke the License Agreement giving info to a rival and as far as we know that could be true.

    So, i want to add one thing . Just a few days after the test finished, Arabia Saudi, wrote that they would create a fund for their oil.
    What if IH received a big sum from a petrol company to stall the process until they get rid of their oil.

    The easiest way to do that is what they did if we trust Rossi. Transfer the information to another company. Claim that it doesnt work. Then after the fund is created and sold the oil company would give them a huge sum of money to be the Licensess of the technology to start to use it.

    It may be a single coincidence but yesterday I talk with a cousin of mine wich works in forex and told me that they are all aware of this technology since months ago even they didnt have so much info. So it seems that the market is really reflecting the result of a viable technology.

    To me there are too much hints to point that way, and to stall the technology they need Rossi out of the game because he wants to launch the technology right now..

    • Omega Z

      “and we are with two options. It works – then IH lies. It doesnt work – then Rossi lies.”

      Option 3 to include with your 2nd option.
      It doesn’t work – then IH also lied to Woodford Investment funds to obtain $50/$60 million in investments..

    • Anon2012_2014

      Third option:

      It works, just the COP is too low to be firmly above the payoff threshold which I believe was reduced to 2.6x in the third amendment to the agreement (for a proportional payout). If IH measured a COP of 1.7 but the ERV measured 2.7, there would be enough cause for IH to challenge the ERVs reading and get a better ERV (i.e. a national lab) to do the testing. This would be particularly true if IH was given restricted access to the Doral warehouse. A lot of money is at stake so why should IH go with a Lugano level measurement that is not incontrovertible.

  • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

    I see something fishy here and we are with two options. It works – then IH lies. It doesnt work – then Rossi lies.

    According to all the data, to me, see that Rossi lies is doubtful. No one would pay 10 million without proper research. Also the fundings from Cherokee support my theory.

    But there is something that came to my mind if we add all the facts.
    IH filled a patent – No one would fill a patent of something that doesnt work.
    Rossi said that they broke the License Agreement giving info to a rival and as far as we know that could be true.

    So, i want to add one thing . Just a few days after the test finished, Arabia Saudi, wrote that they would create a fund for their oil.
    What if IH received a big sum from a petrol company to stall the process until they get rid of their oil.

    The easiest way to do that is what they did if we trust Rossi. Transfer the information to another company. Claim that it doesnt work. Then after the fund is created and sold the oil company would give them a huge sum of money to be the Licensess of the technology to start to use it.

    It may be a single coincidence but yesterday I talk with a cousin of mine wich works in forex and told me that they are all aware of this technology since months ago even they didnt have so much info. So it seems that the market is really reflecting the result of a viable technology.

    To me there are too much hints to point that way, and to stall the technology they need Rossi out of the game because he wants to launch the technology right now..

    • yup, you just never know. stall tactics from very powerful forces could definitely be at play.

    • Omega Z

      “and we are with two options. It works – then IH lies. It doesnt work – then Rossi lies.”

      Option 3 to include with your 2nd option.
      It doesn’t work – then IH also lied to Woodford Investment funds to obtain $50/$60 million in investments..

    • Anon2012_2014

      Third option:

      It works, just the COP is too low to be firmly above the payoff threshold which I believe was reduced to 2.6x in the third amendment to the agreement (for a proportional payout). If IH measured a COP of 1.7 but the ERV measured 2.7, there would be enough cause for IH to challenge the ERVs reading and get a better ERV (i.e. a national lab) to do the testing. This would be particularly true if IH was given restricted access to the Doral warehouse. A lot of money is at stake so why should IH go with a Lugano level measurement that is not incontrovertible.

  • Omega Z

    DGT arrangement fell apart because they couldn’t come up with the money.
    Possibly IH is also short of the $89 Million…

    • Jonnyb

      Does the £50 million Woodford gave not equate roughly to $89m? O.K. a bit short but close.

      • Omega Z

        I believe it was $50 Million or a little more.
        A few years ago, Darden had trouble coming up with $20 million in an ongoing project. He was bailed out by Donald Trump. That’s the problem with brown field projects. You can sink a ton of money in them real quick and take many years to get any back out. Many are at risk of negative returns.

        Back in time I looked this up because the buzz about $2 Billion in Cherokee assets. Assets being the key word. Not cash

  • Jonnyb

    Hi Guest, Yeh Andrea mentions this also in his reply posted on E-Cat world today. IH have made units independently. Personally I believe him.

    • Eyedoc

      But the EcatX is might be the problem….developed while under contract

  • James Andrew Rovnak

    I am confident in Rossi’s side – a long time follower. Hope he commercializes soon.

  • Eyedoc

    I think you have nailed it….especially if the contract says “current” IP (which will include the EcatX) and also AR was under contract at the time of the X development.