Andrea Rossi Responds to IH Statement (Updated)

Andrea Rossi has posted this comment on the Journal of Nuclear Physics in response to the statement by Industrial Heat today.

Dear Janne:
I have to comment the press release of IH, being a press release and not a forensic act.
They made the Lugano reactor ( they also signed it ) they made many replications of which we have due record and witnesses, they made multiple patent applications ( without my authotization ) with their chief engineer as the co-inventor ( he invented nothing ) , with detailed description of the replications , they made replications with the attendance of Woodford, after which they got 50 or 60 millions of dollars from Woodfords’ investors, they made replications with the attendance of Chinese top level officers, after which they started thanks to the E-Cat they made an R&D activity in China in a 200 millions concern, they made replications with an E-Cat completely made by them under my direction the very day in which the 1 MW plant has been delivered in Raleigh, they made replications that we have recorded. After the replication they made with the attendance of Woodford in 2013 Mr Tom Darden said publicly: ” this replication has been stellar” ( witnesses available). But this is not the place to discuss this. We have prepared 18 volumes to explain exactly and in detail the activity of our “Licensee” and his acquaintances from 2013 to now. Until they had to collect money thanks to the E-Cat, they made replications and have been happy with the E-Cat; when it turned to have to pay, they discovered that they never made replications, that the ERV that they had chosen with us was not good, that the test on the 1 MW plant, thanks to which they collected enormous amounts of money from the investors and where I put at risk my health working 16-18 hours per day was not a good test ( but for all the year of the test they NEVER said a single word of complaint, even if they had constantly their men in the plant, etc etc. But the worse has still to come out. The worse is in the 18 volumes we will present in due time, in due place. A blog is not the right place to discuss a litigation. This is only a quick answer to the press release made by IH.
Ad majora.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Things are getting quite intense now in this dispute, I hope we on ECW can refrain from getting too heated up in the comments section. Let’s keep things respectful, even though emotions can run high in this kind of situation.

UPDATE: This is a question that Hank Mills posted in connection with the above statement, and Rossi’s response.

Dear Andrea,

When you state that IH has made successful replications, did they themselves prepare and process the fuel material to be used in the reactors — including catalyzers — according to IP provided to them, or did they simply use fuel pre-prepared by Leonardo Corporation?

Andrea Rossi
April 7, 2016 at 8:32 PM
Hank Mills:
They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.
I just teached to them what to do.
They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.
Now, let me talk to you of a very singular coincidence: Brillouin has always made only electrolytic apparatuses: go to read all their patent applications made before their agreement with IH, and you will find confirmation of what I am saying ( I know their patents by heart, because I have studied them and probably I know them better than themselves : I wrote about 100 pages of notes about their patents ). And now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April 2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington, DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with. Nothing that Brillouin has ever made before the agreement with IH. What a coincidence !!!
Warm Regards,
A.R.

One more comment from AR:

Andrea Rossi
Andrea Rossi
April 7, 2016 at 9:09 PM
Hank Mills:
In the press release of IH they write that ” for three years they tried to replicate the Rossi effect, with no avail”: very good, but during those three years Industrial Heat collected about 60 million dollars from Woodford, more millions from other sources, exclusively based on my E-Cats technology. This before making shopping to buy other patents. Now, the cases are two: either they are lying when they say they didn’t replicate, or they made a fraud collecting 60 millions from Woodford, more from others, not to mention Cherokee fund. You had to see Tom Darden and JT Vaughn dance like ballet etoiles around the investors, showing them the E-Cats, and telling them that the E-Cats had been built by them! “Stellar” coherently Darden, in his role of etoile, repeated to the enchanted attandees, ready to spend 50 millions. Now, that my bill arrived, the E-Cat had not been replicated , they say. For three years.
Again, I am just answering to a press release of IH.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

  • Bruce__H

    Was Rossi physically on hand for all the the replications he talks about here?

    • Ged

      Perhaps he is a magical, and his physical existence causes the E-cat to work? That would be an interesting twist, though.

      • Bruce__H

        You know these magicians you see levitating or making things disappear aren’t really levitating or making things disappear. I know it looks like it but they really aren’t.

  • Bruce__H

    Was Rossi physically on hand for all the the replications he talks about?

    • Ged

      Perhaps he is a magical, and his physical existence causes the E-cat to work? That would be an interesting twist, though.

      • Bruce__H

        You know these magicians you see levitating or making things disappear aren’t really levitating or making things disappear. I know it looks like it but they really aren’t.

  • Guru Khalsa

    Oh no now I have to wade through 18 volumes of Rossi says, can’t they just manufacture the Ecat and let the customer decide. If it were only that easy.

  • Guru Khalsa

    Oh no now I have to wade through 18 volumes of Rossi says, can’t they just manufacture the Ecat and let the customer decide. If it were only that easy.

  • Tom59

    The activities Darden started seem to go into the direction to spread the technology wide and fast. I would have expected that he would do better managing the relation to Rossi. Looks like he good carried away with the prospects of Rossis invention. Happy end still possible I expect.

  • Tom59

    The activities Darden started seem to go into the direction to spread the technology wide and fast. I had expected that he would do better managing the relation to AR. Looks like he good carried away with the prospects of Rossis invention. Happy end still possible I hope.

  • LCD

    Unfortunately without the positive backing of IH it’s hard to publicly take stock of what is real and what is not in current LENR research.

    This is not good.

    For Darden to say they have not seen enough to convince them is highly damming. How do you explain that?

    • Ged

      How does one explain all that IH did do, which now they claim they didn’t? Lugano, for instance? All that money they raised from others, showing off the tech? How does one explain that?

      • Bob Tivnan

        The only possible explanation is that Rossi is fabricating all of these statements. The problem with that is Darden himself has made statements and behaved in ways that corroborate Rossi’s account. Like I said, Rossi looks more believable now.

        • Ged

          And Woodford made statements, unless Rossi hacked them? And we have pictures of Darden with the e-cat and other such things, and he has profitted handsomely in investments in all this. The court will decide on the worthiness of the “18 volumes” or whatever Rossi wants to present.

          I am sure IH must have some serious ammo up its sleeve, and hopefully Rossi’s response here will get them to be more active in their defense too.

          • Mats002

            This is an IP war on US soil against an European single inventor. Capitol Hill stands behind. What can the outcome be?

          • Einar Zettergren

            True, just ask Håkan Lans.

          • Olle Lindgren

            Never ever bring a case to an American court when:
            A. The opposing part is a US company with US employees and that pays US tax.
            B. The gain is anything the US can use for military supremacy
            C. A US company or government potentially can gain any of the above

            If you do, you are sure to lose.

          • HS61AF91

            Publicity, publicity and some more publicity. That’s what the e-Cat is getting. The test was successful, this demand for payment is valid. Whether Dr. Rossi wins or somehow underhandedly not, the world wins with e-Cat production by non-stop robotic conveyor belt.

      • LCD

        In short LENR works but not commercially viable

        • Ged

          Very possible and I could completely believe that, but IH should have just said that plainly rather than vague, contradictory (to themselves) statements.

          • LCD

            I H is not Rossi so they are going to be more professional and legal about it.

            I’m not ready to believe Darden is evil quite yet.

            I guess it could also be that the test results are real but they don’t trust the independent third party. Although that argument would be weak because they likely signed off on it.

            I’m kind of just sad at this point. Would love to hear more from MFMP

          • NT

            MFMP where are you?

          • Anon2012_2014

            Rossi wins by just proving it to a third party chosen by the United States District Court judge. These are the judges appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, i.e. the top legal scholars. The judge probably went to a top school and will pick a top expert. We find out in two years and it will be public and incontrovertible. Patience.

          • LCD

            Oh wow I hope it’s not that long

        • Bob Tivnan

          I think you’re ignoring the facts about IH and Darden that Ged has given.

          • LCD

            I’m not but it is also true that Rossi gets into these predicaments with others such as Defkalion and NASA, so I have to take that into account.

            It’s possible (just my speculation) that Rossi can show the radiation and that gets everybody’s interest and initial investment, but when he tries to minimize the radiation the COP goes to crap and he gets into trouble.

            I don’t know what else would logically explain all the evidence I’ve directly and indirectly been part of.

            I think it’s scientifically a major breakthrough but Rossi cannot make the next step.

            Just my two cents

          • Teemu Soilamo

            So it’s a major scientific breakthrough, and Rossi has really got something but can’t harness it, but then he fabricates evidence for COP of 50, oh but then he’s a scammer how could he have stumbled upon this serendipity and THEN start conning people?

          • LCD

            Well I haven’t seen the evidence for radiation free COP of 50 have you?

          • Teemu Soilamo

            I just find it unlikely that Rossi has both found something and is a con artist. It’s probably either or. But what do I know.

          • LCD

            No I don’t think he’s a con artist but he’s built up his own expectations and his friends are right there with him and so it may be difficult to admit that it isn’t consistent enough our safe enough for prime time. Remember IH stated it was not a success but didn’t state why.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Someone call Bill O’Reilly.

  • Bob Tivnan

    Rossi’s detailed account stands in stark contrast to the vague response from IH about the lawsuit. Also, his adamant tone shows how he feels betrayed by IH, and his fighting spirit is evident. It’s hard to believe that he could be lying abut the entire matter. This is all a good sign in my view. The whole truth has yet to be be revealed, but Rossi is looking better today than yesterday.

    • Ged

      We know some thing that he can’t be lying about. Such as Lugano, which we all were witness to. And Woodford’s involvement and what they independently have said. And the Chinese, etc. There is far more supporting evidence in Rossi’s court right now, then in IH’s. We’ll have to see what evidence IH presents in its defense filing, as that could flip it all on its head, of course.

      But as of right now, IH sounds completely insane and schizophrenic in their vague statement compared to all they’ve already done and money they have already raised from others.

      A right mess; there’s gotta be a lot more to this.

  • Bob Tivnan

    Rossi’s detailed account stands in stark contrast to the vague response from IH about the lawsuit. Also, his adamant tone shows how he feels betrayed by IH, and his fighting spirit is evident. It’s hard to believe that he could be lying about the entire matter. This is all a good sign in my view. The whole truth has yet to be be revealed, but Rossi is looking better today than yesterday.

    • Ged

      We know some thing that he can’t be lying about. Such as Lugano, which we all were witness to. And Woodford’s involvement and what they independently have said. And the Chinese, etc. There is far more supporting evidence in Rossi’s court right now, then in IH’s. We’ll have to see what evidence IH presents in its defense filing, as that could flip it all on its head, of course.

      But as of right now, IH sounds completely insane and schizophrenic in their vague statement compared to all they’ve already done and money they have already raised from others.

      A right mess; there’s gotta be a lot more to this.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Andrea Rossi

    April 7, 2016 at 8:32 PM

    Hank Mills:

    They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.

    I just teached to them what to do.

    They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

    Now, let me talk to you of a very singular coincidence: Brillouin has always made only electrolytic apparatuses: go to read all their patent applications made before their agreement with IH, and you will find confirmation of what I am saying ( I know their patents by heart, because I have studied them and probably I know them better than themselves : I wrote about 100 pages of notes about their patents ). And now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April 2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington, DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with. Nothing that Brillouin has ever made before the agreement with IH. What a coincidence !!!

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • Teemu Soilamo

      I’m loving this new, open Rossi. One good thing to have come out of the litigation.

      • Ged

        Here here. It’s tragic, but dang, we’re getting such goodies from all this. At the very least, this is serious entertainment.

        • Bob Tivnan

          I wasn’t aware that IH was also backing Brillouin. Was this public knowledge?

          • Ged

            Yeah, we found out about that a little while ago, actually.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Andrea Rossi

    April 7, 2016 at 8:32 PM

    Hank Mills:

    They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.

    I just teached to them what to do.

    They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

    Now, let me talk to you of a very singular coincidence: Brillouin has always made only electrolytic apparatuses: go to read all their patent applications made before their agreement with IH, and you will find confirmation of what I am saying ( I know their patents by heart, because I have studied them and probably I know them better than themselves : I wrote about 100 pages of notes about their patents ). And now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April 2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington, DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with. Nothing that Brillouin has ever made before the agreement with IH. What a coincidence !!!

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • Teemu Soilamo

      I’m loving this new, open Rossi. One good thing to have come out of the litigation.

      • Ged

        Here here. It’s tragic, but dang, we’re getting such goodies from all this. At the very least, this is serious entertainment.

        • Bob Tivnan

          I wasn’t aware that IH was also backing Brillouin. Was this public knowledge?

          • Ged

            Yeah, we found out about that a little while ago, actually.

  • Bob Tivnan

    “Brillouin has always made only electrolytic apparatuses”.
    “And now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April 2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington, DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with.”

    The plot thickens.

    • Slad

      From Mr “I never comment on competitors”.

      • Ged

        Indignation can make for all sorts of exceptions.

        • NT

          And in this case, rightfully so!

      • Bob Tivnan

        Well, the game has changed now. Hasn’t it?

        • Slad

          It’s just getting good

          • Bob Tivnan

            Yep, the gloves are off.

  • Bob Tivnan

    “Brillouin has always made only electrolytic apparatuses”.
    “And now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April 2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington, DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with.”

    The plot thickens.

    • Slad

      From Mr “I never comment on competitors”.

      • Ged

        Indignation can make for all sorts of exceptions.

        • NT

          And in this case, rightfully so!

      • Bob Tivnan

        Well, the game has changed now. Hasn’t it?

        • Slad

          It’s just getting good

          • Bob Tivnan

            Yep, the gloves are off.

  • NT

    These statments contradict what IH chief engineer (Fabriani) stated, paraphrasing, “Rossi prepared all the powders involved in the 1MW plant one year test” Someone if out in left fied here?

    • Ged

      I don’t think those statements by Rossi were about the 1 MW plant? The 1 MW plant was indeed Rossi’s. I think Rossi’s talking about other things IH made itself (like Lugano, but after, probably)?

      • NT

        No, sorry, I believe these statement came while Rossi and IH engineer (Fabiani) were working in the container together. Lots to look up…

        • Ged

          I hear you…

        • Teemu Soilamo

          Andrea Rossi

          April 7, 2016 at 9:09 PM

          Hank Mills:

          In the press release of IH they write that ” for three years they tried to replicate the Rossi effect, with no avail”: very good, but during those three years they collected about 60 million dollars from Woodford, more millions from other sources, exclusively based on my E-Cats technology. This before making shopping to buy other patents. Now, the cases are two: either they are lying when they say they didn’t replicate, or they made a fraud collecting 60 millions from Woodford, more from others, not to mention Cherokee fund.

          Damn, Rossi not holding back AT ALL. I wonder if this is what IH anticipated?

          • SG

            I’d suggest Mr. Rossi keep his powder dry and reveal the details in follow-up court filings.

          • Ged

            I can almost feel the heat coming off all these sick burns.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Maybe IH can use that to power all of those defunct E-Cats that they built?

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Fabiani is also one of the ‘believers’.

      So, how can we trust him? /s

      • NT

        Good question as he is an IH employee to boot…

  • NT

    These statments contradict what IH chief engineer (Fabriani) stated, paraphrasing, “Rossi prepared all the powders involved in the 1MW plant one year test” Someone if out in left fied here?

    • Ged

      I don’t think those statements by Rossi were about the 1 MW plant? The 1 MW plant was indeed Rossi’s. I think Rossi’s talking about other things IH made itself (like Lugano, but after, probably)?

      • NT

        No, sorry, I believe these statement came while Rossi and IH engineer (Fabiani) were working in the container together. Lots to look up…

        • Ged

          I hear you…

        • Guest

          the statement from Fabiani was from a November 2015 interview with Mats Lewan, it’s posted on Mats’ blog: animpossibleinvention.com

          the statement from Rossi was from a full year earlier. So Rossi’s statement would suggest that he taught IH how to prepare the fuel back in 2014, but over the course of the next year they forgot how, and then per Fabiani a year later Rossi was the only one in control of the fuel…

          I also specifically remember one of the complaints about the Lugano test was that Rossi had been the one in control/handling the fuel both directly before and directly after (something about him having the fuel in an envelope seems to stick). So don’t know how Rossi’s going to be able to back up that statement…

          He really should be careful or maybe take a break from his musings on JONP, he could write himself right into a potential libel charge if he’s not careful.

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Fabiani is also one of the ‘believers’.

      So, how can we trust him? /s

      • NT

        Good question as he is an IH employee to boot…

  • peacelovewoodstock

    Considering what is at stake (e.g., “Chinese top level officers”, etc.) I fear for Rossi’s safety.

    Whether he is saint or charlatan, I pray he remains healthy and visible so we can all see how this plays out.

    • Bob Tivnan

      Yes, I hope he is using some of the recent financing to beef up his security.

  • Andrew

    Crazy crazy! One thing I really hope for is that Rossi doesn’t get railroaded again. He deserves some rest and more importantly credit where credit is due. I’m very sad for him right now.

    • NT

      Rossi likes a good fair fight, a real lifetime proved tiger – beware IH, the tail you are hanging on to will devour you!

  • Andrew

    Crazy crazy! One thing I really hope for is that Rossi doesn’t get railroaded again. He deserves some rest and more importantly credit where credit is due. I’m very sad for him right now.

    • NT

      Rossi likes a good fair fight, a real lifetime proved tiger – beware IH, the tail you are hanging on to will devour you!

  • US_Citizen71
  • deleo77

    This is getting ugly.

  • US_Citizen71
  • deleo77

    This is getting ugly.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Andrea Rossi

    April 7, 2016 at 9:09 PM

    Hank Mills:
    In the press release of IH they write that ” for three years they tried to replicate the Rossi effect, with no avail”: very good, but during those three years Industrial Heat collected about 60 million dollars from Woodford, more millions from other sources, exclusively based on my E-Cats technology. This before making shopping to buy other patents. Now, the cases are two: either they are lying when they say they didn’t replicate, or they made a fraud collecting 60 millions from Woodford, more from others, not to mention Cherokee fund.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Damn, Rossi not holding back AT ALL. I wonder if this is what IH anticipated?

    • SG

      I’d suggest Mr. Rossi keep his powder dry and reveal the details in follow-up court filings.

    • Ged

      I can almost feel the heat coming off all these sick burns.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Maybe IH can use that to power all of those defunct reactors that they built?

  • passerby

    I’m glad we can count on the MFMP while all this is tied up in the courts. With the progress they’re making we might light the new fire before this even gets resolved.

    • NT

      Hello Bob are you out there? We are ready. I know money – just wait until I win the lottery and then the sky will be the limit…

  • passerby

    I’m glad we can count on the MFMP while all this is tied up in the courts. With the progress they’re making we might light the new fire before this even gets resolved.

    • NT

      Hello Bob are you out there? We are ready. I know money – just wait until I win the lottery and then the sky will be the limit…

  • Curbina

    When
    I put all in context, I can’t help but think that Mats is going to have
    to make a third edition to an impossible invention. Rossi is the
    constant thread of all this saga, and I see coherence in it all. Rossi
    normally says things that are true at the moment and when seen in
    perspective all seems as a perfectly sensible process from the
    perspective of a man tha knows that he invented a world changing
    technology.

    • Curbina

      I bet that if Rossi has ever taken the Myers Briggs personality test, he must have got the ENTJ result, also known as “The Inventor”. But he is also part introvert, so he must be a very rare mix of ENTJ and INTJ (“The Architect”).

      • Slad

        I think Rossi shows all the classic ENTP hallmarks

      • Mike Henderson

        Myers Briggs tests are what HR makes us take when they don’t have enough to do.

  • Curbina

    When I put all in context, I can’t help but think that Mats is going to have to make a third edition to “An impossible invention”. Rossi is the constant thread of all this saga, and I see coherence in it all. Rossi normally says things that are true at the moment and when seen in perspective all seems as a perfectly sensible process from the point of view of a man that knows that he invented a world changing technology.

    • Curbina

      I bet that if Rossi has ever taken the Myers Briggs personality test, he must have got the ENTJ result, also known as “The Inventor”. But he is also part introvert, so he must be a very rare mix of ENTJ and INTJ (“The Architect”).

      • Slad

        I think Rossi shows all the classic ENTP hallmarks

      • Mike Henderson

        Myers Briggs tests are what HR makes us take when they don’t have enough to do.

  • bfast

    I do fear that Rossi will taint his legal claim with all of his chatter. Eng. Rossi, I urge you to pass everything said about IH or any of their associates (Brillouin) past your lawyer. I hate seeing people loose court cases on technicalities.

    • Mike Henderson

      I agree. He certainly has given them a basis for a counterclaim. It ain’t worth it Andrea, you’ve held your tongue for so long keep this to yourself a while longer.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        But it’s just getting good… c ya!

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Not sure about that, that is the game IH wants him to play. They might want it tied up in court for years with all mouths closed while they go on their merry way using and develping the stolen IP.

  • GO ROSSI GO!!

    • Slad

      Yeah. Marquez is a mug.

  • bfast

    I do fear that Rossi will taint his legal claim with all of his chatter. Eng. Rossi, I urge you to pass everything said about IH or any of their associates (Brillouin) past your lawyer. I hate seeing people loose court cases on technicalities.

    • depreciationman

      That is for sure. One wonders if an attorney whose specialty was something other than building contractors might be guiding his client a little more strongly at this moment?

      • David Keller

        I could really use an attorney who’s specialty was building contractors. Could you please share who you think this attorney is, and why you know of their specialty? I’m sorry I tried to google but to no avail.

        • depreciationman

          The attorney signed the lawsuit. His name is John Annesser and you can see his bio at the link below. His background sounds oriented toward real estate and construction contracting issues. With due respect to Mr. Annesser and considering many of us hope the best for Mr. Rossi, I cannot help thinking that there might be a more appropriate representative out there for a matter involving international IP and an emerging nuclear technology.

          http://silverlawgroup.com/attorneys/john-annesser/

    • Mike Henderson

      I agree. He certainly has given them a basis for a counterclaim. It ain’t worth it Andrea, you’ve held your tongue for so long keep this to yourself a while longer.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Not sure about that, that is the game IH wants him to play. They might want it tied up in court for years with all mouths closed while they go on their merry way using and develping the stolen IP.

  • Adam Lepczak

    So now it looks like Rossi has them by the balls. And I think that he was very well versed in what’s going on in part thanks to the vigilant community who just kept on looking for patents for example. The core of the today’s response by IH makes no sense – why 3 years and why not to take an active charge on the ERV process? And why go throught the 1 year test? And finally – if these devices do not work, why file LENR related patent applications…

    • SG

      Not only LENR-related patent applications, but ones that are clearly based on Mr. Rossi’s inventions. IH even named Mr. Rossi as a co-inventor, so no backing away from that now. And if they feel the tech is unsubstantiated and doesn’t work, then submitting a patent application based on that tech is more than just a little dubious.

      • Ged

        The Brillouin twist really makes one scratch the head, as it does seem rather condemning.

        • NT

          It seems that Darden and his companies may have contaminated all the upcoming LENR’s. I hope not – maybe planned by the PTB (Fossils)…

      • wpj

        If Rossi refuses to sign for the patent as inventor, then this is pretty useless. I had to do that on a couple of occasions with a company that had taken my ideas and run with them

    • TVulgaris

      Patent-trolling has become a huge money-maker for even the world’s biggest corporation. Right now, IH either files a very profitable bankruptcy (very much in Cherokee’s favor), rendering the suit moot to the greater degree, or it’s held onto simply as a litigation vehicle (conveniently tying up its other assets, as well).

      • timycelyn

        I wouldn’t trust IH to tell me whether it’s raining outside or not. They appear prima face to be swindlers of the worst type. They have an excellent reason for terminating, I agree, they want to steal it!!

        As to you other assertions about the credibility of Rossi and those that have worked on the technology with him, this will all be tested in court under oath.

        However, one of the problems your dismissive position has here is Fabiani, the IH man that has gone on public record as saying the technology works, and works well. What will he say under oath? Is he prepared to perjure himself for his boss? Can you imagine the line of questioning from conceal going line by line over his internet interview “How could you have been so wrong as to think this, given that you built it?” No jury would believe hi. If he changed his story that amount.

        If he has any sense will leave IH post-haste to avoid getting dragged event further into the mire…

        • psi2u2

          You are completely wrong in your belief that IH has no other activity; it has been obvious for some weeks now that they have purchased other LENR IP and worked with others, notably Robert Godes, in the LENR field.

          • DrD

            Amongst others, I think the customers electricity account might just help a little.

  • Adam Lepczak

    So now it looks like Rossi has them by the balls. And I think that he was very well versed in what’s going on in part thanks to the vigilant community who just kept on looking for patents for example. The core of the today’s response by IH makes no sense – why 3 years and why not to take an active charge on the ERV process? And why go throught the 1 year test? And finally – if these devices do not work, why file LENR related patent applications…

    • SG

      Not only LENR-related patent applications, but ones that are clearly based on Mr. Rossi’s inventions. IH even named Mr. Rossi as a co-inventor, so no backing away from that now. And if they feel the tech is unsubstantiated and doesn’t work, then submitting a patent application based on that tech is more than just a little dubious.

      • Ged

        The Brillouin twist really makes one scratch the head, as it does seem rather condemning.

        • NT

          It seems that Darden and his companies may have contaminated all the upcoming LENR’s. I hope not – maybe planned by the PTB (Fossils)…

      • wpj

        If Rossi refuses to sign for the patent as inventor, then this is pretty useless. I had to do that on a couple of occasions with a company that had taken my ideas and run with them

    • TVulgaris

      Patent-trolling has become a huge money-maker for even the world’s biggest corporation. Right now, IH either files a very profitable bankruptcy (very much in Cherokee’s favor), rendering the suit moot to the greater degree, or it’s held onto simply as a litigation vehicle (conveniently tying up its other assets, as well).

  • EEStorFanFibb

    One thing I was wondering about for the past several hours (something Rossi addressed above) *did Woodford invested 50-60M in IH because of the ECat or because of some other LENR technology??

    Rossi clearly believes it was because of Woodford’s and IH’s hands-on DD on the ECat and not on say Brillioun’s or some other LENR technology.

    * That is an very important question.

    Hopefully Rossi has hard proof that it was ECat tech that prompted Woodford’s big investment. IF that’s case IH and Woodford are in serious trouble imo.

  • One thing I was wondering about for the past several hours (something Rossi addressed above) *did Woodford invested 50-60M in IH because of the ECat or because of some other LENR technology??

    Rossi clearly believes it was because of Woodford’s and IH’s hands-on DD on the ECat and not on say Brillioun’s or some other LENR technology.

    * That is an very important question.

    Hopefully Rossi has hard proof that it was ECat tech that prompted Woodford’s big investment. IF that’s case IH and Woodford are in serious trouble imo.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    “You had to see Tom Darden and JT Vaughn dance like ballet etoiles around the investors, showing them the E-Cats, and telling them that the E-Cats had been built by them! “Stellar” coherently Darden, in his role of etoile, repeated to the enchanted attandees, ready to spend 50 millions.”

    If Rossi’s going down, he’s taking Darden with him…

  • bachcole

    I have had to delete over 800 emails today. For me, going through 100 emails in one day is a lot. If anyone responded to me in any substantive way, please understand that I cannot respond unless you post your response here.

    This is all very bizarre. Darden’s behavior makes no sense to me. Talk about cognitive dissonance. The 2013 Levi test and the 2014 Lugano test are sort of chiselled in stone; LENR+ is real. Even the behavior of Darden et. al. confirms Rossi’s excellent progress. And yet this . . . . . . .

    • Dr. Mike

      Have to agree with you on this- very bizarre!

    • Veblin

      Why are you getting 800 emails? If they are from Discus you need to change your settings.
      At the top of the comments by your name click the circle(bubble) icon.
      When the Notifications overlay opens, click the gear icon next Notifications.
      When your Disqus settings page opens click on Email Notifications.

    • LarryJ

      IH wants to be the licensor not the licensee. In this light their actions make a great deal of sense. This is the start of a classic patent war. IH will claim their engineer was co-inventor and it will go from there.

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Check your settings, paisano. Good god.

  • bachcole

    I have had to delete over 800 emails today. For me, going through 100 emails in one day is a lot. If anyone responded to me in any substantive way, please understand that I cannot respond unless you post your response here.

    This is all very bizarre. Darden’s behavior makes no sense to me. Talk about cognitive dissonance. The 2013 Levi test and the 2014 Lugano test are sort of chiselled in stone; LENR+ is real. Even the behavior of Darden et. al. confirms Rossi’s excellent progress. And yet this . . . . . . .

    • Dr. Mike

      Have to agree with you on this- very bizarre!

    • Veblin

      Why are you getting 800 emails?
      If they are from Disqus you need to change your settings.
      At the top of the comments click your name and select Edit Settings
      or.
      At the top of the comments by your name, click the circle(bubble) icon.
      When the Notifications overlay opens, click the gear icon next to Notifications.

      When your Disqus settings page opens click on Email Notifications.
      Un-check.
      Subscribe automatically to discussions you comment on.
      You’ll get an email for every new comment on discussions you’re subscribed to if you have that checked..

      • bachcole

        I see it now, thanks. But it seems to be broken. The following is selected: “Receive an email when someone replies to your comments” But it does not work. This would be ideal now.

        • Veblin

          I don’t know how Subscribe works because I have never had it selected. It just seems to be to risky because you could get hundreds or thousands of emails. I do have Replies selected but I don’t normally get emails. I do get emails for replies if I post or edit at the Disqus site. I found this because sometimes a new post I make will disappear and only show up again a few hours later. If I edit that post at Disqus it will usually show up right away and I get emails for replies to that post.

          E-Cat World at Disqus
          https://disqus.com/home/forum/ecw/

          If you click on a title it will go to that thread at E-Cat World.
          If you click on the comments links it will open the comments at Disqus.
          Like for this thread.
          https://disqus.com/home/discussion/ecw/rossi_responds_to_ih_statement/

    • Rene

      The one part of IH’s response that could make sense, and I mentioned it before, is that the 1MW plant seems to have required an expert human (Rossi) to act as the control mechanism. That may make it technically an amazing energy source but quite the immpractical one.
      This has been the primary issue throughout the five years of this endeavor, that the reaction is difficult to control to keep it in the sweet spot (aka SSM). I suspect it may be the case that the ecat-X aka quark is the first time Rossi has found a workable and automatic control mechanism, and, that it is *not* the tech/IP he was handing over to IH. I can understand why they’d be pretty pissed off about that.
      There is a lot of grey area spread out between parties.

      • US_Citizen71

        I think Rossi stayed 16 hours a day inside the container to prevent sabotage to the plant. He could have come running any hour of the day to fix a problem. He was there to guard his baby. He likely had at least one other person he felt that he could trust watch it while he slept. 10 days down time out of a year doesn’t really suggest a very problematic plant considering it is a prototype.

        • Rene

          It could be that or both situations, though throughout that long test he talked about monitoring the system, making changes, etc. The same went on with just about every case previous to the 1MW test run where he ran e-cats for a time, constant manual tweaks. Keeping the units in long SSM intervals has been his constant struggle. This contentious situation may be IH pairing two imperfect technologies then claiming *that* as novel hence patentable: Rossi’s clearly superior power ratio formulation and BLP’s control tech.
          Anyway, this entire mess leaves me with sadness. This demo plant was supposed to be the expedient toward fast construction/adoption and clear proof. The independent reporter wasn’t, the 3rd party plant wasn’t, the humanitarian oriented VC isn’t, the commercial ready power system isn’t. It may yet work but it now becomes an eventuality measured in many years.

    • LarryJ

      IH wants to be the licensor not the licensee. In this light their actions make a great deal of sense. This is the start of a classic patent war. IH will claim their engineer was co-inventor and it will go from there.

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Check your settings, paisano. Good god.

  • SteveW

    “industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success”

    It doesn’t necessarily mean the technology doesn’t work but it may not be commercially viable- why else would Rossi have to practically live in the 1 MW plant for the one year test to keep it working.

    If the contract was for the successful completion of the original 1 MW plant, IH may have been on the hook to pay Rossi a huge amount of money for a now obsolete technology. Imagine a company having to pay an inventor for the incandescent light bulb after successful one year testing. But, during the test or perhaps even before that inventor invented the LED bulb. They wouldn’t want a successful test. Is this why Rossi had to do the work of a low level technician because IH didn’t want to pay him for obsolete technology that he could then turn around and use to develop the e-cat x himself.

    The agreement may have allowed Rossi to spend as much time as he wanted in the plant but limited additional technical assistance since this was supposes to be a test of a commercially viable product that shouldn’t need continous monitoring.

    Just speculating

    • LarryJ

      The fact that Rossi had to babysit the reactor is irrelevant. The fact that the average cop was 50 is very relevant. Reliability is just a question of engineering. A reactor technology with a cop of 50 is worth trillions regardless of the whether or not the first one ever built needed to be watched closely.

      • SteveW

        It is absolutely relevent. With a cop of 50 it is a revolutionary scientific accheivement. However, if it is not ready for commercial deployment and Rossi is holding back the IP of a superior reactor like the e-cat x as revolutionary as it may be it may be worthless to IH.

        The fact that Rossi had to spend so much time in the 1 MW plant himself speaks volumes of the strained relationship between IH and Rossi. To me this shows contractual game playing.

        You state, “A reactor technology with a cop of 50 is worth trillions regardless of the whether or not the first one ever built needed to be watched closely.”

        I’m sorry but history is littered with great inventions that went on to change the world but whose inventors made nothing. .

    • Josh G

      According to the license agreement, IH gets access and license to all improvements to the technology. But if Rossi doesn’t trust them, he might not have divulged the secrets to his latest innovations. I suspect that is the reason Darden hasn’t paid and the reason for the lawsuit.

    • TVulgaris

      That kind of speculation leads to valuable questions, but- a production prototype test (and this probably would not have been an RTM production model, as continuous long-term operation had never been attempted) is going to be monitored continuously, preferably with the directly-involved engineers and designers in frequent attendance, or certainly readily accessible, to trouble-shoot or tweak. IT WAS A TEST. Apparently it was quite a successful test of the reactor, but there’s little likelihood that reactor would be used AS IS in that or any other plant, ever.

      A better model is what’s going on with the CFL market and LED bulbs- CFL production peaked just a few years after widespread cheap distribution hit, and only lasted for about a decade at that peak before LED bulbs started to be affordable- but the industry is far from dead.
      It’s quite possible IH wants to steal the IP, save $89M, and it’s STILL going to make billions and billions even without the QuarkX just off the industrial market. What I’m really afraid is it’ll tie LC/AR in litigation for years (the countersuits will start within a week, I’d bet) to exhaust all their resources, to block serious competition. I THINK they’ll have some difficulty if Rossi goes to Europe controlling the entire market, but I’m afraid that’s their intent.

  • Slad

    Yeah. Marquez is a mug.

  • Munger

    Non of this makes sense for Rossi.
    If the technology works as good as Rossi says it does then IH would gladly give them 89 million to maintain the license.
    If the technology works as good as Rossi says it does then Rossi wouldn’t want the 89 million because the license he would get back from IH is worth billions.
    If the technology works as good as Rossi says it does then he would have investors banging down his door to give him money. His technology would be worth a fortune. We have to remember Rossi was convicted of fraud before. How much integrity does have? To me the main thing that legitimized Rossi was his connection to IH and the due diligence they put into their investment.

    • SG

      Rossi was accused of myriad things throughout the years and taken to court multiple times to fight dozens of claims. He beat nearly every charge. He has a very high batting average in court.

    • Bob Greenyer

      didn’t Woodford say they did their own DD?

      • Owen Geiger

        Yes. Supposedly two years.

    • IH only have the COP 6 tech, not the COP 50. It makes a huge difference. This is what it is all about. And now they are obliged to pay $89M for outdated tech because they underestimated Rossi.

      Also you underestimate the work of separating investors from their money. For sure Darden did that, even though he had the “holy grail” och COP 6 in his hands. He was being forced to lie owning IP to get Woodford in. Now the IP he has is outdated, so he claims he hasn’t got it at all.

      Three are so many uncertainties in the LENR business. The limited time window is one. When COP 50 works seamlessly, then it will be everywhere quickly, but then energy will be worth nothing… It’l become like an MP3 music file as I elaborated on here: http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/blackswanascending.pdf

      This is why Rossi is correct about making a lot of cats quickly and sell them cheaply. Nothing else will work. Think of it as future products with “E-Cat Inside” or an Ipod that includes all music recorded through history. At $100. A gadget. That is the only LENR business model that will work 5+ years.

      This is not a top-down revolution replacing coal and nuclear powerplants reducing CO2. This is a bottom-up revolution of individual freedom from energy constraints and scarcity. The business model needs to accept that. Of course coal and oil will be replaced.

      • LarryJ

        IH have the cop 50 Tech. This number is from the ERV report which measured the performance of the reactor used in the one year test.

        • Maybe, maybe not. I’m not sure they’ve replicated it, as they have with the COP 6 tech from the validation test. I believe this is an issue. Rossi has probably been paranoid with some of his improvements resulting in COP >> 6.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            According to Rossi, IH made the 1 MW test plant. Although Fabiani’s statement about Rossi “preparing the charges” directly contradicts this. And then there’s the issue of the 52 garden variety 15 kW E-Cats vs. the 4 250 kW ones.

          • I believe it to be probable that Rossi, since he got suspicious of IH, have not released all his new ideas and IP to IH. Since there is now time constraints on these kind of new IP releases in the agreement, he could very well have intended to, but not anymore since IH breached the contract on a specific first. Lawyers will argue. It’s their job, and they are usually good at it …

          • Pumps, water swirling in pipes and bubbling as it boils, mechanical thermostats and relays clicking, metal creaking as temperatures change…

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Not if his IP has been stolen!

      • LarryJ

        Exactly. IH is claiming that their engineer is a co-inventor. They are after the IP and that is worth far more than the licensing fees.

  • Munger

    Non of this makes sense for Rossi.
    If the technology works as good as Rossi says it does then IH would gladly give them 89 million to maintain the license.
    If the technology works as good as Rossi says it does then Rossi wouldn’t want the 89 million because the license he would get back from IH is worth billions.
    If the technology works as good as Rossi says it does then he would have investors banging down his door to give him money. His technology would be worth a fortune. We have to remember Rossi was convicted of fraud before. How much integrity does have? To me the main thing that legitimized Rossi was his connection to IH and the due diligence they put into their investment.

    • SG

      Rossi was accused of myriad things throughout the years and taken to court multiple times to fight dozens of claims. He beat nearly every charge. He has a very high batting average in court.

    • Bob Greenyer

      didn’t Woodford say they did their own DD?

      • Owen Geiger

        Yes. Supposedly two years.

    • IH only have the COP 6 tech, not the COP 50. It makes a huge difference. This is what it is all about. And now they are obliged to pay $89M for outdated tech because they underestimated Rossi.

      Also you underestimate the work of separating investors from their money. For sure Darden did that, even though he had the “holy grail” och COP 6 in his hands. He was being forced to lie owning IP to get Woodford in. Now the IP he has is outdated, so he claims he hasn’t got it at all.

      Three are so many uncertainties in the LENR business. The limited time window is one. When COP 50 works seamlessly, then it will be everywhere quickly, but then energy will be worth nothing… It’l become like an MP3 music file as I elaborated on here: http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/blackswanascending.pdf

      This is why Rossi is correct about making a lot of cats quickly and sell them cheaply. Nothing else will work. Think of it as future products with “E-Cat Inside” or an Ipod that includes all music recorded through history. At $100. A gadget. That is the only LENR business model that will work 5+ years.

      This is not a top-down revolution replacing coal and nuclear powerplants reducing CO2. This is a bottom-up revolution of individual freedom from energy constraints and scarcity. The business model needs to accept that. Of course coal and oil will be replaced.

      • LarryJ

        IH have the cop 50 Tech. This number is from the ERV report which measured the performance of the reactor used in the one year test.

        • Maybe, maybe not. I’m not sure they’ve replicated it, as they have with the COP 6 tech from the validation test. I believe this is an issue. Rossi has probably been paranoid with some of his improvements resulting in COP >> 6.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            According to Rossi, IH made the 1 MW test plant. Although Fabiani’s statement about Rossi “preparing the charges” directly contradicts this. And then there’s the issue of the 52 garden variety 15 kW E-Cats vs. the 4 250 kW ones.

          • I believe it to be probable that Rossi, since he got suspicious of IH, have not released all his new ideas and IP to IH. Since there is now time constraints on these kind of new IP releases in the agreement, he could very well have intended to, but not anymore since IH breached the contract on a specific first. Lawyers will argue. It’s their job, and they are usually good at it …

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Not if his IP has been stolen!

      • LarryJ

        Exactly. IH is claiming that their engineer is a co-inventor. They are after the IP and that is worth far more than the licensing fees.

  • Winebuff67

    Probably should have used the F9 on both of those statements for litigious reasons. His lawyer needs to muzzle him post haste.

    • US_Citizen71

      If he can back it up then it is not libel, it could make finding a jury slightly harder maybe. A potential juror would have to read the statements. Short of that I do not see how it causes him problems.

      • MasterBlaster7

        I was reading some comments that said that there was no previous electricity bill to compare it to. That the company X has only one year of LENR operation and no operation before that. But take that with a HUGE grain of salt. Just read it in the comments section….actually the smart move would be to not read the comments section for a few weeks; haha.

        • Sanjeev

          I think it was somewhere on the Lewan’s blog that the JMC (customer) is a shell company set up overnight but does represent an actual customer who doesn’t want to be identified. And Lewan’s sources had a feeling that the heat is actually doing something useful, i.e the steam was being fed to an actual production facility.
          But as usual take it with a grain of salt. No one knows at present.

          • C. Kirk

            I believe I read (Rossi’s blog perhaps or Ecatworld) that the customer was using natural gas for the steam production prior to the 1MW plant and the natural gas system was there as a backup……

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I read that too. Nothing official yet.

  • Winebuff67

    Probably should have used the F9 on both of those statements for litigious reasons. His lawyer needs to muzzle him post haste.

    • US_Citizen71

      If he can back it up then it is not libel, it could make finding a jury slightly harder maybe. A potential juror would have to read the statements. Short of that I do not see how it causes him problems.

  • Mats002

    The fog around the LENR+ players dissolves. We have Brillouin with a working device supported by IH/Darden/Cherokee and Woodford. BLP (Mills) is endorsed by Piantelli and have since long investors, then there is a player that has not been out in the light yet, don’t remember who/when said that but the memory of it is vivid. And Leonardo in Europe.

    • Mats002

      And add to that Russia (Parkhomov), China (Songsheng) and Japan and India started serious LENR research programs.

      The scam theories must take into account this broader picture.

    • Roland

      Rossi made the comment about a serious competitor quite recently; we may now be privy to how this came about.

      • Axil Axil

        State who is the competitor and how he got so good.

        • LarryJ

          I would assume that the competitor he refers to is Brillouin. Rossi stated that he believes IH transferred his IP to them and their recent demo of a solid fuel reactor before congress was based on his stolen IP. All their prior reactors were based on electrolytic processes

          • Ecco

            How would Brillouin be a serious competitor in his mind? I doubt he is referring to them.

          • LarryJ

            Andrea Rossi

            April 7, 2016 at 8:32 PM

            Hank Mills:

            They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.

            I just teached to them what to do.

            They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

            Now, let me talk to you of a very singular coincidence: Brillouin has
            always made only electrolytic apparatuses: go to read all their patent
            applications made before their agreement with IH, and you will find
            confirmation of what I am saying ( I know their patents by heart,
            because I have studied them and probably I know them better than
            themselves : I wrote about 100 pages of notes about their patents ). And
            now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April
            2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington,
            DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with.
            Nothing that Brillouin has ever made before the agreement with IH. What a
            coincidence !!!

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

          • Ecco

            What I mean is why would he consider serious a competitor who according to him stole his technology?

            This is what he wrote:

            […] I must add that there is also some competitor that is working very seriously and upon technology really different from ours: but they don’t talk, as I did until 2011.

            http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=78#comment-1163079

          • LarryJ

            I do recall that comment but it is possible that he could not mention that their technology was the same as his without starting an intense speculation about what he meant. It’s a practical consideration so he just said they are serious competitors and are using a technology that (used to be) really different from ours. Today he confirmed that he had to lie about his relationship with IH until the court case was filed, so for practical considerations he does not always speak the truth.

            In any event your guess is as good as mine but Brillouin is the only competitor that has been in the news and has a relationship with IH. Rossi has known about this incestuous relationship for some time and if they think they have the right to use his IP they could be a very serious competitor.

          • MasterBlaster7

            Well…Brillouin “talks”….so the competitor is probably not Brillouin. I would say Jet energy….but Jet energy “talks” a little bit and gives cold fusion 101 talks.

            Maybe SPAWAR?

        • Roland

          First, this was in response to Mats wondering why it had stayed with him that there’s another serious competitor; Rossi remarked on it recently.

          Secondly, I was implying that perhaps Rossi has been aware of the transfer of his IP to another entity that has made progress in addition to this initial advantage; pure speculation on my part. The speculation is based on Rossi’s, apparently, extensive documentation in support of his legal action and his, apparent, knowledge of who received IP transfers from IH and what the payments were; all of which suggests extensive preparation, by Rossi, for this moment and, apparently, some form of counter-intelligence contingency planning.

          Thirdly, I expect exactly whom he was referring to will emerge shortly when they are also named in court documents should this competitor have gained an advantage through an IP transfer to them by IH. As you can see, from below, the list of potential candidates has already begun based on Rossi’s posts.

          Fourthly, the serious competitor may have nothing to do with the current fracas and will burst upon us out of the blue proceeded by nothing but vague rumours that have reached Rossi’s ears and, subsequently, ours.

          And, finally, there’s this odd serendipity that arises over and over again in the history of human inventiveness; great ideas often emerge simultaneously in disparate and wholly unconnected fashion in several minds around the globe in ways, were we to consider it deeply, that beg for adequate explanation.

          None of which, Dear Axil, succeeds in actually answering your questions.

  • Mats002

    The fog around the LENR+ players dissolves. We have Brillouin with a working device supported by IH/Darden/Cherokee and Woodford. BLP (Mills) is endorsed by Piantelli and have since long investors, then there is a player that has not been out in the light yet, don’t remember who/when said that but the memory of it is vivid. And Leonardo in Europe.

    • Mats002

      And add to that Russia (Parkhomov), China (Songsheng) and Japan and India started serious LENR research programs.

      The scam theories must take into account this broader picture.

    • Roland

      Rossi made the comment about a serious competitor quite recently; we may now be privy to how this came about.

      • Axil Axil

        State who is the competitor and how he got so good.

        • LarryJ

          I would assume that the competitor he refers to is Brillouin. Rossi stated that he believes IH transferred his IP to them and their recent demo of a solid fuel reactor before congress was based on his stolen IP. All their prior reactors were based on electrolytic processes

          • Ecco

            How would Brillouin be a serious competitor in his mind? I doubt he is referring to them.

          • LarryJ

            Andrea Rossi

            April 7, 2016 at 8:32 PM

            Hank Mills:

            They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.

            I just teached to them what to do.

            They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

            Now, let me talk to you of a very singular coincidence: Brillouin has always made only electrolytic apparatuses: go to read all their patent applications made before their agreement with IH, and you will find confirmation of what I am saying ( I know their patents by heart, because I have studied them and probably I know them better than themselves : I wrote about 100 pages of notes about their patents ). And now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April 2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington, DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with. Nothing that Brillouin has ever made before the agreement with IH. What a coincidence !!!

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

          • Ecco

            What I mean is why would he consider serious a competitor who according to him stole his technology?

            This is what Rossi wrote:

            […] I must add that there is also some competitor that is working very seriously and upon technology really different from ours: but they don’t talk, as I did until 2011.

            http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=78#comment-1163079

          • LarryJ

            I do recall that comment but it is possible that he could not mention that their technology was the same as his without starting an intense speculation about what he meant. It’s a practical consideration so he just said they are serious competitors and are using a technology that (used to be) really different from ours. Today he confirmed that he had to lie about his relationship with IH until the court case was filed, so for practical considerations he does not always speak the truth.

            In any event your guess is as good as mine but Brillouin is the only competitor that has been in the news and has a relationship with IH. Rossi has known about this incestuous relationship for some time and if they think they have the right to use his IP they could be a very serious competitor.

          • MasterBlaster7

            Well…Brillouin “talks”….so the competitor is probably not Brillouin. I would say Jet energy….but Jet energy “talks” a little bit and gives cold fusion 101 talks.

            Maybe SPAWAR?

        • Roland

          First, this was in response to Mats wondering why it had stayed with him that there’s another serious competitor; Rossi remarked on it recently.

          Secondly, I was implying that perhaps Rossi has been aware of the transfer of his IP to another entity that has made progress in addition to this initial advantage; pure speculation on my part. The speculation is based on Rossi’s, apparently, extensive documentation in support of his legal action and his, apparent, knowledge of who received IP transfers from IH and what the payments were; all of which suggests extensive preparation, by Rossi, for this moment and, apparently, some form of counter-intelligence contingency planning.

          Thirdly, I expect exactly whom he was referring to will emerge shortly when they are also named in court documents should this competitor have gained an advantage through an IP transfer to them by IH. As you can see, from below, the list of potential candidates has already begun based on Rossi’s posts.

          Fourthly, the serious competitor may have nothing to do with the current fracas and will burst upon us out of the blue proceeded by nothing but vague rumours that have reached Rossi’s ears and, subsequently, ours.

          And, finally, there’s this odd serendipity that arises over and over again in the history of human inventiveness; great ideas often emerge simultaneously in disparate and wholly unconnected fashion in several minds around the globe in ways, were we to consider it deeply, that beg for adequate explanation.

          None of which, Dear Axil, succeeds in actually answering your questions.

  • Winebuff67

    Your leading the witness hank! 😉 and not helping his case much. But it so interesting please lead on.

  • Winebuff67

    Your leading the witness hank! 😉 and not helping his case much. But it so interesting please lead on.

  • I have lost interest. Wake me when there is a LENR product for sale by anyone. This is all too Twilight Zone for me. Signing Off

    • Teemu Soilamo

      But it’s just getting good… c ya!

  • Mylan

    The recent statement of IH that they are investing in several LENR technologies makes more sense now. Could mean, they have the knowledge of Rossi, handed it to another company or even companies, and want to get products for less than Rossi wanted.

  • Mylan

    The recent statement of IH that they are investing in several LENR technologies makes more sense now. Could mean, they have the knowledge of Rossi, handed it to another company or even companies, and want to get products for less than Rossi wanted.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Is this new twist, which will unpleasantly feed the trolls, about bargaining (‘extra-judicially’) over an apparently due 89m?
    Why would they brawl over that amount, now that there is a ‘stellar’ future in front of them with working E Cats?

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Is this new twist, which will unpleasantly feed the trolls, about bargaining (‘extra-judicially’) over an apparently due 89m?
    Why would they brawl over that amount, now that there is a ‘stellar’ future in front of them with working E Cats?

  • Wow, this is a very hard pill for IH. They lost all trust now.

    I allways thought Darden is a man who wants to make the world a better place.
    But now we can see his dark and greedy face….

    • malkom700

      Of course it would be wrong to accuse Darden personally, since he did not speak. The statements of the IH and the LC was issued.

      • But he’s the top boss of them.

        He must have given green light for this behaviour.

    • This is business, with many shade of grey.
      Nobody’s evil, some are just stupid.

      Someone in padua heard the talk of Darden and said me :
      “I’ve heard the same kind of talk in any corporate conference… this is just vanilla corporate show… this man just do business. don’t believe his “save the planet” moto… he do business.”

      More generally an advice I’ve heard is to avoid the big money, the big VC. the vultures. Big money is big control.

      Best is to get less money from network of SMB, to deliver small things, to provide technology to people who make products and to be paid moderately by many many companies who will have no incentive to refuse to pay.

      To hobbyist, scientists and engineers working on LENR I would advice to meet local tycoon, local SMB, and ask them to share a project with you, the investment, the effort and the company shares.

    • Sanjeev

      Well, too strong.
      Why are you so sure? What if someone more powerful is holding his strings. What about the military or the US gov? There can be some entities who would like to see this partnership break and throw Rossi out of US by hook or crook.

    • cashmemorz

      But that is what makes for successful investments. Investors are the only ones that count. If I was an investor I would see only $.

    • Axil Axil

      Mariana

      October 20th, 2015 at 12:23 AM

      Dear Dr Andrea Rossi:

      Why did you write that it is heavy to answer the question about when will it possible to invest in Leonardo Corporation?

      Andrea Rossi

      October 20th, 2015 at 9:34 AM

      Mariana:

      Because I want first to complete the tests on course. There is a big difference between professional investors, expert of finance, and persons like a Reader of this blog: I want not to play foot-ball with the bones of the others.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

      Andrea Rossi

      January 17th, 2016 at 8:41 AM

      Chris Beall:

      Your question is not easy to be answered. I would say this: we must wait the completion of the tests on course; we are very close to an industrial product and we have an enormous potential, put in evidence by a portfolio in the order of billions, but we still must put a disclaimer: the final results could be positive or negative.

      Our ship is still a warship, not a cruise ship and who enters our ship must be fully aware that he is going to fight, not to make a cruise, and that the result of a fight could also end up with casualties. All the guys presently in our ship are perfectly aware of this. This having been said, I can slightly modify my motto this way:

      ” I want not to play foot ball with the bones of persons that are not professional American foot ball players”. By the way: Go Panthers!

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

      ———————————-

      For many years now, Rossi has be playing a devious game with the money managers, capitalists, and bean counters, to get the resources that he has desperately needed to advance his product development but at the same time to keep control of his IP. Rossi has had to walk on a knifes edge for these three years in his dealings with IH.

      Rossi knows how professional money managers and venture capitalists think from his years of experience dealing with the mafia. He has extracted as much resources as he could from IH before IH could become his competitor using his own IP. Sure he kept critical IP information back as a prophylactic against treachery that he knew would most likely come from IH.

      Who could expect justice and morality from a money manager faced with the prospects of a thousand trillion dollars of revenue at his fingertips. Fair play only goes so far and their comes a point where it grows too expensive to indulge in.

      Rossi was playing a dirty game with his sponsors, but he knew that they would betray him somewhere along the way at the money making potential of his invention became clear. In this game of “it’t just business” who can make a moral judgement about what is right and what is wrong.

      Like Pi, has Rossi gotten far enough down the R&D road to protest himself from the tigers that have shared and will share his boat going forward?

  • Roland

    A few things stand out in all this.

    In the statement of claim Rossi is clearly in possession of a document that substantiates an average COP> 50; this is, obviously, far in excess of contractual requirements and only a lawyer of truly vast stupidity would allow a number over 6 to enter such a document if that number was not absolutely bullet proof and substantiatable by direct witnesses to this fact.

    How to do this (COP>50), and the details of the quark, are not in IH’s possession though they do have prior versions of the IP and they, and who ever they shared the IP with, are now way behind the curve (again).

    Unless they bury Rossi he, or his heirs, will eventually reap the benefits of whatever underhandedness has taken place because IH just hung all their partners out to dry. Is Woodford happy with this turn of events?

    We will learn volumes from Woodford’s response to this turn of events. If they aren’t party to skulduggery and have been oversold by IH they can be expected to renounce IH and seek redress in short order. They may still be a very viable partner for Leonardo if they have clean hands.

    Both Cherokee and Woodford have significant exposure to long term damages arising from any malfeasance and their balance sheets make them huge juicy targets, especially when one includes the actions of the next set of entities in the unfolding chain of claims.

    It seems that Tom Darden has very substantially underestimated Rossi by setting on a course early in the game that relied on Rossi making little or no progress in the face of their apparent obstructionism; if my reading of the situation is correct they squandered ‘the’ opportunity of the coming century by this and history, and those they take down with them, will not view them kindly.

    The choice of trial by jury is interesting. If Rossi’ cause is just, and provably so as an excess of documentation suggests, a jury could come to see IH’s actions as detrimental on a very broad scale and appoint damages on that basis.

    P.S. Andrea Rossi should, ideally, heed his lawyer’s advice on public commentary going forward.

    • Sanjeev

      Woodford can sue Darden and co. if they promised a working tech in exchange of the huge investment. I find it strange that Darden/JTV are digging a hole for themselves here by saying that what you invested on doesn’t work.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Unless Woodford are secretly part of the ‘Get rid of Rossi scheme’.

        • Sanjeev

          It does look like that way. Woodford cooperated.

  • Wow, this is a very bitter pill for IH. They lost all trust now.

    I allways thought Darden is a man who wants to make the world a better place.
    But now we can see his dark and greedy face….like a real a**hole business man

    • malkom700

      Of course it would be wrong to accuse Darden personally, since he did not speak. The statements of the IH and the LC was issued.

      • But he’s the top boss of them.

        He must have given green light for this behaviour.

    • This is business, with many shade of grey.
      Nobody’s evil, some are just stupid.

      Someone in padua heard the talk of Darden and said me :
      “I’ve heard the same kind of talk in any corporate conference… this is just vanilla corporate show… this man just do business. don’t believe his “save the planet” moto… he do business.”

      More generally an advice I’ve heard is to avoid the big money, the big VC. the vultures. Big money is big control.

      Best is to get less money from network of SMB, to deliver small things, to provide technology to people who make products and to be paid moderately by many many companies who will have no incentive to refuse to pay.

      To hobbyist, scientists and engineers working on LENR I would advice to meet local tycoon, local SMB, and ask them to share a project with you, the investment, the effort and the company shares.

    • Wakeupcall

      its called cut-throat business

    • Sanjeev

      Well, too strong.
      Why are you so sure? What if someone more powerful is holding his strings. What about the military or the US gov? There can be some entities who would like to see this partnership break and throw Rossi out of US by hook or crook.

    • cashmemorz

      But that is what makes for successful investments. Investors are the only ones that count. If I was an investor I would see only $.

    • Axil Axil

      Mariana

      October 20th, 2015 at 12:23 AM

      Dear Dr Andrea Rossi:

      Why did you write that it is heavy to answer the question about when will it possible to invest in Leonardo Corporation?

      Andrea Rossi

      October 20th, 2015 at 9:34 AM

      Mariana:

      Because I want first to complete the tests on course. There is a big difference between professional investors, expert of finance, and persons like a Reader of this blog: I want not to play foot-ball with the bones of the others.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

      Andrea Rossi

      January 17th, 2016 at 8:41 AM

      Chris Beall:

      Your question is not easy to be answered. I would say this: we must wait the completion of the tests on course; we are very close to an industrial product and we have an enormous potential, put in evidence by a portfolio in the order of billions, but we still must put a disclaimer: the final results could be positive or negative.

      Our ship is still a warship, not a cruise ship and who enters our ship must be fully aware that he is going to fight, not to make a cruise, and that the result of a fight could also end up with casualties. All the guys presently in our ship are perfectly aware of this. This having been said, I can slightly modify my motto this way:

      ” I want not to play foot ball with the bones of persons that are not professional American foot ball players”. By the way: Go Panthers!

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

      ———————————-

      For many years now, Rossi has be playing a devious game with the money managers, capitalists, and bean counters, to get the resources that he has desperately needed to advance his product development but at the same time to keep control of his IP. Rossi has had to walk on a knifes edge for these three years in his dealings with IH.

      Rossi knows how professional money managers and venture capitalists think from his years of experience dealing with the mafia. He has extracted as much resources as he could from IH before IH could become his competitor using his own IP. Sure he kept critical IP information back as a prophylactic against treachery that he knew would most likely come from IH.

      Who could expect justice and morality from a money manager faced with the prospects of a thousand trillion dollars of revenue at his fingertips. Fair play only goes so far and there comes a point where it grows too expensive to indulge in.

      Rossi was playing a dirty game with his sponsors, but he knew that they would betray him somewhere along the way when the money making potential of his invention became clear. In this game of “it’t just business” who can make a moral judgement about what is right and what is wrong.

      Like Pi, has Rossi gotten far enough down the R&D road to protest himself from the tigers that have shared and will share his boat going forward?

  • Roland

    A few things stand out in all this.

    In the statement of claim Rossi is clearly in possession of a document that substantiates an average COP> 50; this is, obviously, far in excess of contractual requirements and only a lawyer of truly vast stupidity would allow a number over 6 to enter such a document if that number was not absolutely bullet proof and substantiatable by direct witnesses to this fact.

    How to do this (COP>50), and the details of the quark, are not in IH’s possession though they do have prior versions of the IP and they, and who ever they shared the IP with, are now way behind the curve (again).

    Unless they bury Rossi he, or his heirs, will eventually reap the benefits of whatever underhandedness has taken place because IH just hung all their partners out to dry. Is Woodford happy with this turn of events?

    We will learn volumes from Woodford’s response to this turn of events. If they aren’t party to skulduggery and have been oversold by IH they can be expected to renounce IH and seek redress in short order. They may still be a very viable partner for Leonardo if they have clean hands.

    Both Cherokee and Woodford have significant exposure to long term damages arising from any malfeasance and their balance sheets make them huge juicy targets, especially when one includes the actions of the next set of entities in the unfolding chain of claims.

    It seems that Tom Darden has very substantially underestimated Rossi by setting on a course early in the game that relied on Rossi making little or no progress in the face of their apparent obstructionism; if my reading of the situation is correct they squandered ‘the’ opportunity of the coming century by this and history, and those they take down with them, will not view them kindly.

    The choice of trial by jury is interesting. If Rossi’ cause is just, and provably so as an excess of documentation suggests, a jury could come to see IH’s actions as detrimental on a very broad scale and appoint damages on that basis.

    P.S. Andrea Rossi should, ideally, heed his lawyer’s advice on public commentary going forward.

    • Sanjeev

      Woodford can sue Darden and co. if they promised a working tech in exchange of the huge investment. I find it strange that Darden/JTV are digging a hole for themselves here by saying that what you invested on doesn’t work.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Unless Woodford are secretly part of the ‘Get rid of Rossi scheme’.

        • Sanjeev

          It does look like that way. Woodford cooperated.

  • Josh G

    Rossi was ready to pounce with his lawsuit the moment the 5 days had passed after the ERV report and he didn’t get paid. I had wondered how long it took to prepare the case filing; in other words: how far in advance did Rossi see this coming? His statement that “We have prepared 18 volumes to explain exactly and in detail the activity of our “Licensee” and his acquaintances from 2013 to now.” Shows that he saw this coming a LONG way off and has been working with his attorneys for many months to prepare this lawsuit. I guess he knew something was fishy once he saw the patent applications that IH filed and also the Brillouin demo in DC. Now he just needs to clam up so he his extra-judicial pronouncements don’t interfere with or prejudice the legal proceedings.

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      It seems that Rossi, for whatever hypothetical reason and wherever, has learned – the hard way – to make sure he can defend himself at 360°.
      “Estote parati”, be prepared.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Probably his history going up against the Italian Mafia

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          ‘Mafia’ can be a concept that might be broadened… sometimes used as a synonym or a metaphor.

          • malkom700

            Perhaps the debate seems to about nothing. If the E-Cat X is much better than the E-Cat will soon be on sale. Due to the small dimensions with little money will soon be implemented for series production.

          • Mats002

            IH can not ‘substansiate’ the tech they are in control of because they are in control of E-Cat 1.0 which gives COP ~6 but they do not possess the knowhow to make higher COPs and certainly not E-CatX. Rossi claim he is the sole owner of all the IP and refuse to transfer knowhow.

            Businesswise for IH/Darden this is a total failure for the partnership.

            Maybe. Stay tuned…

          • Ged

            That explanation would be parsimonious with the claims so far from both sides.

          • Mats002

            Yes, the 4x250kW version came about in the middle of the 1 year test, and later on the X-version.

            If this is true I must admit AR is a super inventor as if he wasn’t already with the first version.

          • wpj

            No it didn’t; they switched to the 4 x 250 before the test commenced (it was reported that there was a false start to the test and they had to restart).

            Additionally, it seems to have been something in the Lugano test which gave Rossi an insight into how to improve things.

          • Mats002

            No it didn’t; they switched to the 4 x 250 summer 2015, see link above.

          • Mike

            Is the conclusion that there is no one-year test since the plant design changed considerably during the test?

          • Frank Acland

            They intended to start the test in 2014, but had problems with the smaller reactors. so they built larger ones that were apparently easier to handle. Rossi said that the clock on the 1 year test started ticking on February 20th 2015, this was after the larger E-Cat reactors were installed.

          • wpj

            Yes, that is the way that I tried to describe it above!

          • wpj

            No, there was even suggestions of doing it with a hot cat in the contract.

          • BillH

            This could be a crucial point, exactly which E-Cat did IH buy and what plant did the customer actually lease. At the moment I’m thinking the x4 250KW version, but if it was the earlier version sitting on site as a backup it may be that the whole test might have become invalid since it wasn’t done on the correct plant.

            But surely IH agreed that the test was to be carried out using the x4 250KW or the test would not have proceeded? The whole thing hinges on which plant the test was carried out on and who owned it.

          • US_Citizen71

            The 2nd amendment to the license has the plant changed to a 6 cylinder model. I assume this is what they called the 4 x 250kW modules.

            http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.4.pdf

          • Sanjeev

            I don’t know which is which, but as per Rossi, they built the hot cats, which reached a COP of 50. This is all they need I think.

          • artefact

            I also don’t know. Rossi said they built it. But maybe he meant the old version with the 100 reactors and not the new version with 4 250KW modules which was built just before the start.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            The backup was 52 reactors.

          • Josh G

            It appears that IH licensed Brillouin’s tech in December 2013, and by March 2014 they were already testing a prototype ‘hydrogen hot tube’ E-cat knock-off:

            From Brillouin’s website: http://brillouinenergy.com/about/milestones/

            > SRI runs tests first Brillouin Hydrogen Hot Tube (HHT) system and succeeds in showing occasional evidence of excess heat in its operation – March 2014

            > Commercial sales breakthrough as Brillouin Energy signs its first paid Licensing Agreement for its CECR Technologies – December 2013

            Their demonstration in front of Congress doesn’t come until November, 2015. Note however that their hot tube uses Rossi’s old hydrogen gas system, not the newer powder formula.

          • Mike

            100 or 52 or 4 reactors? Lowtemp, high temp or x-version…… But who knows for sure and don’t speculate?

          • Mats002

            First time we heard of the larger 250kW modules was may 19 2015, at that time those where tested and not part of the 1MW plant, see:

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/05/19/rossi-on-stable-250-kw-e-cat-reactor-buck/

          • Mike

            So…..these modules were not used in the one-year test. Have any photos of these 250 kW units been published?

          • Frank Acland

            Yes one is on the andrea-rossi.com website. It’s the one with him listening through the stethoscope.

          • Mike

            I can not find it. Do you have a more exact link to the image?

          • Frank Acland
          • Mats002

            AR switched over to the 4×250 during summer 2015. Then the 10/15kW setup became the backup system.

          • wpj

            He says there “test on course” which is, presumably, the 4 x 250 set up with the different charge loads.

            Interestingly, the customer was revealed on that post…………

          • Mats002

            He he! Peanut gallery rules ^^

            Axil gave Rossi directions in that thread too and some high class open source peanut engineering as well.

    • Brokeeper

      I think he was aware of broken trust before the agreement was signed, when ‘IH’ initials were substituted with ‘The Company’ within the agreement. 18 volumns takes a long time to prepare.

      • Obvious

        Rossi makes notes about things all the time. He keeps track of everything he can.
        He has an extensive naughty and nice list.
        He even had in the contract that he could restrict to which journalists news was disseminated through…..

  • Josh G

    Rossi was ready to pounce with his lawsuit the moment the 5 days had passed after the ERV report and he didn’t get paid. I had wondered how long it took to prepare the case filing; in other words: how far in advance did Rossi see this coming? His statement that “We have prepared 18 volumes to explain exactly and in detail the activity of our “Licensee” and his acquaintances from 2013 to now.” Shows that he saw this coming a LONG way off and has been working with his attorneys for many months to prepare this lawsuit. I guess he knew something was fishy once he saw the patent applications that IH filed and also the Brillouin demo in DC. Now he just needs to clam up so he his extra-judicial pronouncements don’t interfere with or prejudice the legal proceedings.

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      It seems that Rossi, for whatever hypothetical reason and wherever, has learned – the hard way – to make sure he can defend himself at 360°.
      “Estote parati”, be prepared.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Probably his history going up against the Italian Mafia

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          ‘Mafia’ can be a concept that might be broadened… sometimes used as a synonym or a metaphor.

    • Brokeeper

      I think he was aware of broken trust before the agreement was signed, when ‘IH’ initials were substituted with ‘The Company’ within the agreement. 18 volumns takes a long time to prepare.

      • Obvious

        Rossi makes notes about things all the time. He keeps track of everything he can.
        He has an extensive naughty and nice list.
        He even had in the contract that he could restrict to which journalists news was disseminated through…..

  • Steve Swatman

    Sounds to me like the “Quark” has made the E-cat obsolete, ih do not have access or patents for the “quark” and are really upset, so have withheld payment and will until they either get access to the “Quark” technology. by withholding payment they also put paid to Mr Rossi, crating his own “quark” manufacturing facility,

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    What popped out at me about these Rossi statements is that IH had reps visiting the one year test site frequently. IH has no grounds to say the one year test was a Rossi set up. If the test is as good as Rossi says, game over.

    • kdk

      With a jury trial, you might find them more keen to the spirit of the agreement than somebody trying to basically steal somebody’s technology, a revolutionary one at that. To me, it doesn’t look very good for IH.

      • Brokeeper

        Agreed, no amount of verbage can convey the spirit of the law into the letter of the law.
        That’s the job of the jury, made up of common folks like ourselves also under the letter of the laws. ‘We the people’.

        • TVulgaris

          Unfortunately, an old saying about overestimating the intelligence of the average American comes to mind…you could say the same about our pliability…

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    What popped out at me about these Rossi statements is that IH had reps visiting the one year test site frequently. IH has no grounds to say the one year test was a Rossi set up. If the test is as good as Rossi says, game over.

    • kdk

      With a jury trial, you might find them more keen to the spirit of the agreement than somebody trying to basically steal somebody’s technology, a revolutionary one at that. To me, it doesn’t look very good for IH.

      • Brokeeper

        Agreed, no amount of verbage can convey the spirit of the law into the letter of the law.
        That’s the job of the jury, made up of common folks like ourselves also under the letter of the laws. ‘We the people’.

        • TVulgaris

          Unfortunately, an old saying about overestimating the intelligence of the average American comes to mind…you could say the same about our pliability…

  • kdk

    I’m confused as to why IH would risk throwing away an opportunity to be the one’s making the E-Cats which appear to be close to ready for the market.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I personally like the way Rossi is speaking out. Being silent is exactly what IH wants, keep it in the courts for years while they use and develop Rossi’s IP without paying him. We have seen this same game played out many times, after years in court everyone forgets, lawyers twist and turn all the facts and the inventor/creator gets screwed. So, don’t play their game, Rossi should continue to speak out, the internet is his friend.

      • wpj

        How can they develop his IP now; the agreement is terminated due to non-payment?

        Any activities with the obtained IP will now be illegal and any settlement multiplied many-fold rather than just the 3 that is being asked for. It will also harm their case after saying that they cannot substantiate.

        • LarryJ

          They are going to make a claim to the IP. They will claim their engineer as co-inventor ot the technology.

          • wpj

            Rossi can challenge quite easily and is, by law, required to sign and state that this was as it happened. The patent is not valid without that; I have been through it.

        • Sanjeev

          Unfortunately, they can, with slight modifications and their own patents and outside US, where Rossi will find it difficult to enforce anything.

          • wpj

            Unfortunately, you may be right. It seems that the law (US) changed in September 2012 to make it easier to get the patent when you had someone refusing to sign. He could always challenge, though, for lack of invention.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Watch them, unless there is an injunction, they will continue to use Rossi IP, even if there is an injunction, court jurisdiction will be questioned, etc, etc, etc.

      • Any ‘NDAs’ seem to have bitten the dust with a vengeance! We are learning more about this saga in a few days than we previously did in a year.

        The present court case is a side issue, and may well end up settled out of court (although more will inevitably follow). Rossi seems to have other backing, and will seemingly be able to plough on now without the encumbrance of IH and their scheming. The most important revelation IMO is that IH has passed on what IP they have to Brillouin and probably to other sponsored groups, in the hope of breaking AR’s monopoly, but they don’t have the all-important x/quark know-how.

        It seems that we are back to in mercato veritas – a race, the main obstacle being safety certification in whatever country/continent Rossi chooses to continue his project in. Unless of course other parties intervene to make this difficult or impossible.

        • If Rossi comes to Sweden, as he has hinted, and if IH/USA has most of the technology secrets, I would say that it will be a tough fight. There’s just a few more talents and some more VC in the big country over there (from my horizon).

          • Da Phys

            Mats, I applaud your initiative to organize a meeting following the 350 days test. As you can imagine, the fact that AR has now filed a lawsuit against IH has important consequences for the LENR community. Not only because of the high claims of AR on the performance of his E-cats but also because IH supported other companies in the field.
            AR may come to your meeting. I don’t know if you invited someone from IH nor if anyone from IH is expected to come. Given current context, to organize a meeting with AR alone can be highly detrimental to the whole LENR community.
            Finally, you said that you will need strong evidence that the 350 days test was a success to organize the meeting. This requirement has given much credibility to your meeting. Now, given current litigation, I strongly recommend that you base your evaluation not only the ERV report but also and mainly on any evidence that the customer can give. The name of the customer is now public and it is likely that it will rapidly have to bring some evidence as part of the investigation. As you know, all previous tests of the E-cats were criticised and it is highly likely that the same will apply on the ERV report. On the other hand, I don’t think that it is presumptuous to say that everyone is waiting for the customer to just say that indeed he truly received 1MW and that he truly paid only $1k per day. This is the only evidence that people will trust. Thank you, Da Phys.

          • Yes, I want to see the report.
            In this situation, I doubt IH will come to such a symposium. BTW, Darden had a brief email exchange with me after ICCF in Padua last year, after which he stopped answering my emails, even though he had promised me an interview. No communication.
            I don’t think I will be able to contact the customer at this point. The name is public, but not the identity.

          • Rip Kirbyian

            So why does not Rossi take the opportunity to invite someone like you Mats to see the factory? To test the E-cat? I think he needs his supporters now more than ever.

        • DrD

          How do you know they don’t have that all important Christmas “E-CatX” secret?

        • Brent Buckner

          You write: “IH’s case doesn’t look that strong”

          We haven’t seen IH’s case.

          We have a hint that they’ll claim that Rossi/LC was and continued to be in breach through not having delivered all E-Cat IP to IH.

          As to Rossi’s Complaint respective of trade secrets, I see that IH is allowed under Section 1 to freely sublicense any of IH’s rights, and while I see that Rossi/LC is obliged to keep trade secrets under Section 16.4 I see no reciprocal obligation for IH.

    • Sanjeev

      They didn’t throw that away, the last sentence where they intend to continue the work on LENR suggests that. They threw Rossi away, … for whatever reason. We will know soon.

  • kdk

    I’m confused as to why IH would risk throwing away an opportunity to be the one’s making the E-Cats which appear to be close to ready for the market.

    • Sanjeev

      They didn’t throw that away, the last sentence where they intend to continue the work on LENR suggests that. They threw Rossi away, … for whatever reason. We will know soon.

  • Josh G

    I fear poor Andrea may have shot himself in the foot with original license agreement. Specifically, section 13.4 of the IH-Leonardo license agreement specifies that not only are future improvements Rossi makes to e-cat included in IH’s license, but it also says that any advancements that IH makes belong to IH: “any and all inventions, discoveries, concepts, ideas, information and anything else that the Company, its sublicensees, or any of their affiliates, makes or develops with relate to the E-Cat IP . . . including enhancements, improvements, alternations, additions, deviations, changes, variations … shall be and remain the property of the Company.”

    Well, we know that IH has been working to improve the e-cat. Wasn’t the Lugano reactor with its alumina upgrade partly designed by IH engineers? Isn’t the work done by Fulvio Fabiani (an IH employee) on the 1MW control system by extension the IP of IH? Don’t get me wrong, I’m on Rossi’s side here. But the waters are much muddier than Rossi’s statements would suggest, and I am trying to be as objective as possible.

    Can Rossi just pick up the 1MW plant and walk over to do business in, say, Sweden? As much as he maintains that IH’s chief engineer didn’t invent anything, it seems clear that IH’s engineers are at least responsible for developing (likely in consultation with Rossi) some of the bells and whistles that make the 1MW plant tick, even if Rossi is the genius behind it all. And furthermore, if Rossi was hired as IH’s chief engineer, would patents of his filed during his work for them count as work done by IH or an affiliate? I don’t know the legal ins and outs here, but it seems like this paragraph is a swamp from which it will be hard for Rossi to emerge free and clear, holding all the IP necessary for a successful E-cat plant. If he tries to set up shop in Europe, he will likely be sued by IH. I hope I’m wrong, but I think Darden is a very savvy businessman, so I don’t think he’d do this if he wasn’t holding some good cards in his hand. On the basis of this agreement, IH might feel that they legitimately have a right to file patent applications on these innovations.

    It seems that Rossi has been suspicious of Darden’s intentions for quite some time, especially if he views the filing of these patents as stealing his ideas and suspects Brillouin was given inside information (we don’t know what evidence he has for that; it’s not as if Darden gave MFMP any inside info but they also have a working reactor). If so, then he may not have shared with IH all the secrets with respect to the E-cat X and other upgrades and innovations he has made with the 1MW plant (even if they are able to run demonstrations of the e-cat for investors). Darden may be holding back payment as a way of squeezing Rossi into divulging all his latest secrets, while Rossi is reluctant to divulge them since he no longer trusts Darden. This suit then is Rossi’s way of trying to get out of a business deal with an outfit that he no longer trusts or wishes to do business with. But this license agreement may mean they are joined at the hip for better or worse.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      This is exactly what IH is planning on, “seems clear that IH’s engineers are at least responsible for developing (likely in consultation with Rossi) some of the bells and whistles”. IH did not create anything. This same game is being played out many times in the US, corporate raiders stealing the IP of inventors/creators.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        How can IH at the same time claim to have created some of the bells and whistles while denying that the apparatus has been substantiated?

    • wpj

      Surely they were not allowed to work with other partners on this before the completion and payment for the 1 year test. This is probably the crux of the matter.

      • Sanjeev

        I couldn’t find anything in the agreement that says this. Rossi, unfortunately, allowed them to sub-license the IP to anyone they wish.
        Its exactly opposite, if you read it carefully, LC/AR is not allowed to work for competitors of IH. (I’m guessing that outside the territory AR is free to do anything he wants).

        • Josh G

          I think you’re right about this. The non-compete clause does say that if IH terminates the agreement, then they have to hold off on competing against Rossi for 2 years. But otherwise it seems they can use it as they see fit within IH and its affiliates. We don’t know what the relationship is between Brillouin and IH. Maybe IH bought them out. In that case, it would be perfectly legal for IH to bring Brillouin in to the fold.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, the agreement is almost “unfair”.
            Don’t you think 2 years is nothing in terms of technology deployment? Why didn’t Rossi forbid them to use his IP till the patents expire, in case of termination of the agreement?
            Now all they need to do is, terminate the agreement (no need to pay), spend two years developing and refining the E-Cat tech, and then simply launch it in the open market. They can claim entire world as their territory, not bound by the agreement anymore to a few countries.
            Brillouin may be just another sub-licensee, and they can legally have Rossi’s IP and develop their own products with it, since the agreement gives Rossi no control on what IH and its licensees can do with the IP. It doesn’t help to call them “competitors”, there is nothing in the agreement about non-transference of IP to competitors. IH can sub-license to anyone.

          • Ged

            A really, really bad deal for Rossi in hindsight. But he needed that money for his vision of churning out E-cats en mass. Quite the snare.

          • Brent Buckner

            See also Section 16.4 – Rossi/LC obliged to keep trade secrets, but I see no reciprocal obligation on IH.

          • Ged

            Gees. A -really- bad deal for Rossi.

          • TVulgaris

            Unless the contract is void.

          • Brent Buckner

            Yes, if the contract is void then Rossi/LC is not obliged to keep trade secrets.

      • Josh G

        I don’t see that stipulated in their agreement. They appeared to have free reign.

    • Sanjeev

      I agree, it seems Rossi knew all along what was coming. It takes a lot of time to collect 18 volumes (of evidence I presume) and he sensed that IH may not want to continue the 1 year test and may not pay up. He fired his shot exactly 5 days after he got the ERV report, which is the deadline mentioned in the agreement.

    • Sanjeev

      Darden may be holding back payment as a way of squeezing Rossi into
      divulging all his latest secrets, while Rossi is reluctant to divulge
      them since he no longer trusts Darden.

      Rossi is bound by the agreement to convey all future developments to IH. If he did not trust them, he could have simply terminated the agreement (like he did it with DGT). There is no point in keeping a licensee who you don’t trust. But he would have lost the 105M and probably that’s what kept him tied to IH.

    • Zephir

      /* especially if he views the filing of these patents as stealing his ideas */

      Didn’t A. Rossi work as a chief R&D scientist for IH? In this case everything what he develops belongs to his employer (not to say, if just this condition has been hardwired in his licence agreement).

  • Thomas

    This happens all the time when new innovative technologies show up … Yesterday I saw a video on YT about Transistors! There, it was exactly the same …

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Fascinating. Can you provide a link?

  • Josh G

    I fear poor Andrea may have shot himself in the foot with the original license agreement with IH. Specifically, section 13.4 of the agreement specifies that not only are future improvements Rossi makes to the E-cat included in IH’s license, but it also says that any advancements that IH makes belong to IH: “any and all inventions, discoveries, concepts, ideas, information and anything else that the Company, its sublicensees, or any of their affiliates, makes or develops with relate to the E-Cat IP . . . including enhancements, improvements, alternations, additions, deviations, changes, variations … shall be and remain the property of the Company.”

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

    Well, we know that IH has been working to improve the e-cat. Wasn’t the Lugano reactor with its alumina upgrade partly designed by IH engineers? Isn’t the work done by Fulvio Fabiani (an IH employee) on the 1MW control system by extension the IP of IH? Don’t get me wrong, I’m 100% rooting for Rossi. But the waters are much muddier than Rossi’s statements would suggest, and I am trying to be as objective as possible.

    Can Rossi just pick up the 1MW plant and walk over to do business in, say, Sweden? As much as he maintains that IH’s chief engineer didn’t invent anything, it seems clear that IH’s engineers are at least responsible for developing (likely in consultation with Rossi) some of the bells and whistles that make the 1MW plant tick, even if Rossi is the genius behind it all. And furthermore, if Rossi was hired as IH’s chief engineer, would patents of his filed during his work for them count as work done by IH or an affiliate?

    I don’t know the legal ins and outs here, but it seems like this paragraph is a swamp from which it will be hard for Rossi to emerge free and clear, holding all the IP necessary for an operable prêt-à-porter E-cat plant. If he tried to set up shop in Europe, he would likely be sued by IH unless he pays IH to license some of their patents. I hope I’m wrong, but I think Darden is a very savvy businessman, so I don’t think he’d do this if he wasn’t holding some good cards in his hand. On the basis of this agreement, IH might feel that they legitimately have a right to file patent applications on these innovations.

    It seems that Rossi has been suspicious of Darden’s intentions for quite some time, especially if he views the filing of these patents as stealing his ideas and suspects Brillouin was given inside information (we don’t know what evidence he has for that; it’s not as if Darden gave MFMP any inside info but they also have a working reactor). If so, then he may not have shared with IH all the secrets with respect to the E-cat X and other upgrades and innovations he has made with the 1MW plant (even if they are able to run demonstrations of the e-cat for investors). Darden may be holding back payment as a way of squeezing Rossi into divulging all his latest secrets, while Rossi is reluctant to divulge them since he no longer trusts Darden. This suit then is Rossi’s way of trying to get out of a business deal with an outfit that he no longer trusts or wishes to do business with. But this license agreement may mean they are joined at the hip for better or worse.

    EDIT: Martin Tornberg makes similar points in the comments over at Mats Lewan’s blog. Worth reading:
    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4265

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      This is exactly what IH is planning on, “seems clear that IH’s engineers are at least responsible for developing (likely in consultation with Rossi) some of the bells and whistles”. IH did not create anything. This same game is being played out many times in the US, corporate raiders stealing the IP of inventors/creators.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        How can IH at the same time claim to have created some of the bells and whistles while denying that the apparatus has been substantiated?

    • wpj

      Surely they were not allowed to work with other partners on this before the completion and payment for the 1 year test. This is probably the crux of the matter.

      • Sanjeev

        I couldn’t find anything in the agreement that says this. Rossi, unfortunately, allowed them to sub-license the IP to anyone they wish.
        Its exactly opposite, if you read it carefully, LC/AR is not allowed to work for competitors of IH. (I’m guessing that outside the territory AR is free to do anything he wants).

        • Josh G

          I think you’re right about this. The non-compete clause does say that if IH terminates the agreement, then they have to hold off on competing against Rossi for 2 years. But otherwise it seems they can use it as they see fit within IH and its affiliates. We don’t know what the relationship is between Brillouin and IH. Maybe IH bought them out. In that case, it would be perfectly legal for IH to bring Brillouin in to the fold.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, the agreement is almost “unfair”.
            Don’t you think 2 years is nothing in terms of technology deployment? Why didn’t Rossi forbid them to use his IP till the patents expire, in case of termination of the agreement?
            Now all they need to do is, terminate the agreement (no need to pay), spend two years developing and refining the E-Cat tech, and then simply launch it in the open market. They can claim entire world as their territory, not bound by the agreement anymore to a few countries.
            Brillouin may be just another sub-licensee, and they can legally have Rossi’s IP and develop their own products with it, since the agreement gives Rossi no control on what IH and its licensees can do with the IP. It doesn’t help to call them “competitors”, there is nothing in the agreement about non-transference of IP to competitors. IH can sub-license to anyone.

          • Ged

            A really, really bad deal for Rossi in hindsight. But he needed that money for his vision of churning out E-cats en mass. Quite the snare.

          • Brent Buckner

            See also Section 16.4 – Rossi/LC obliged to keep trade secrets, but I see no reciprocal obligation on IH.

          • Ged

            Gees. A -really- bad deal for Rossi.

          • TVulgaris

            Unless the contract is void.

          • Brent Buckner

            Yes, if the contract is void then Rossi/LC is not obliged to keep trade secrets.

      • Josh G

        I don’t see that stipulated in their agreement. They appeared to have free reign.

    • Sanjeev

      I agree, it seems Rossi knew all along what was coming. It takes a lot of time to collect 18 volumes (of evidence I presume) and he sensed that IH may not want to continue the 1 year test and may not pay up. He fired his shot exactly 5 days after he got the ERV report, which is the deadline mentioned in the agreement.

    • Sanjeev

      Darden may be holding back payment as a way of squeezing Rossi into
      divulging all his latest secrets, while Rossi is reluctant to divulge
      them since he no longer trusts Darden.

      Rossi is bound by the agreement to convey all future developments to IH. If he did not trust them, he could have simply terminated the agreement (like he did it with DGT). There is no point in keeping a licensee who you don’t trust. But he would have lost the 105M and probably that’s what kept him tied to IH.

    • Zephir

      /* especially if he views the filing of these patents as stealing his ideas */

      Didn’t A. Rossi work as a chief R&D scientist for IH during the whole time? In this case everything what he develops belongs to his employer (not to say, if just this condition has been hardwired in his licence agreement).

  • Frank Hilton

    This whole story would make a great film. Court room drama with Rossi battling with IH and theoretical physicists ending with a decisive ECAT demonstration in front of judge and jury.

    Get your funding from Hollywood Rossi…

  • LarryJ

    The fact that Rossi had to babysit the reactor is irrelevant. The fact that the average cop was 50 is very relevant. Reliability is just a question of engineering. A reactor technology with a cop of 50 is worth trillions regardless of the whether or not the first one ever built needed to be watched closely.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I personally like the way Rossi is speaking out. Being silent is exactly what IH wants, keep it in the courts for years while they use and develop Rossi’s IP without paying him. We have seen this same game played out many times, after years in court everyone forgets, lawyers twist and turn all the facts and the inventor/creator gets screwed. So, don’t play their game, Rossi should continue to speak out, the internet is his friend.

    • wpj

      How can they develop his IP now; the agreement is terminated due to non-payment?

      Any activities with the obtained IP will now be illegal and any settlement multiplied many-fold rather than just the 3 that is being asked for. It will also harm their case after saying that they cannot substantiate.

      • LarryJ

        They are going to make a claim to the IP. They will claim their engineer as co-inventor ot the technology.

        • wpj

          Rossi can challenge quite easily and is, by law, required to sign and state that this was as it happened. The patent is not valid without that; I have been through it.

          Also, if you can show that this system was being used for some time before a competitor (in this case IH) patented the concept, then the patent can easily be invalidated anyway.

      • Sanjeev

        Unfortunately, they can, with slight modifications and their own patents and outside US, where Rossi will find it difficult to enforce anything.

        • wpj

          Unfortunately, you may be right. It seems that the law (US) changed in September 2012 to make it easier to get the patent when you had someone refusing to sign. He could always challenge, though, for lack of invention.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Watch them, unless there is an injunction, they will continue to use Rossi IP, even if there is an injunction, court jurisdiction will be questioned, etc, etc, etc.

    • Any ‘NDAs’ seem to have bitten the dust with a vengeance! We are learning more about this saga in a few days than we previously did in a year.

      The present court case is a side issue, and may well end up settled out of court, as IH’s case doesn’t look that strong, and they probably don’t want the publicity (although more court cases will inevitably follow). Rossi appears to have other backing, and will seemingly be able to plough on now without the encumbrance of IH and their scheming. The most important revelation IMO is that IH has passed on what IP they have to Brillouin and probably to other LENR groups they are sponsoring (be careful, Mr Godes), in the hope of breaking AR’s monopoly. But they don’t have the all-important x/quark know-how, so their technology is already semi-obsolete (but still saleable for the time being).

      It seems that we are back to in mercato veritas – a race, the main obstacle being safety certification in whatever country/continent Rossi chooses to continue his project in. Unless of course other parties intervene to make this difficult or impossible.

      • If Rossi comes to Sweden, as he has hinted, and if IH/USA has most of the technology secrets, I would say that it will be a tough fight. There’s just a few more talents and some more VC in the big country over there (from my horizon).

        • Da Phys

          Mats, I applaud your initiative to organize a meeting following the 350 days test. As you can imagine, the fact that AR has now filed a lawsuit against IH has important consequences for the LENR community. Not only because of the high claims of AR on the performance of his E-cats but also because IH supported other companies in the field.
          AR may come to your meeting. I don’t know if you invited someone from IH nor if anyone from IH is expected to come. Given current context, to organize a meeting with AR alone can be highly detrimental to the whole LENR community.
          Finally, you said that you will need strong evidence that the 350 days test was a success to organize the meeting. This requirement has given much credibility to your meeting. Now, given current litigation, I strongly recommend that you base your evaluation not only the ERV report but also and mainly on any evidence that the customer can give. The name of the customer is now public and it is likely that it will rapidly have to bring some evidence as part of the investigation. As you know, all previous tests of the E-cats were criticised and it is highly likely that the same will apply on the ERV report. On the other hand, I don’t think that it is presumptuous to say that everyone is waiting for the customer to just say that indeed he truly received 1MW and that he truly paid only $1k per day. This is the only evidence that people will trust. Thank you, Da Phys.

          • Yes, I want to see the report.
            In this situation, I doubt IH will come to such a symposium. BTW, Darden had a brief email exchange with me after ICCF in Padua last year, after which he stopped answering my emails, even though he had promised me an interview. No communication.
            I don’t think I will be able to contact the customer at this point. The name is public, but not the identity.

          • Rip Kirbyian

            So why does not Rossi take the opportunity to invite someone like you Mats to see the factory? To test the E-cat? I think he needs his supporters now more than ever.

      • DrD

        How do you know they don’t have that all important Christmas “E-CatX” secret?

      • Brent Buckner

        You write: “IH’s case doesn’t look that strong”

        We haven’t seen IH’s case.

        We have a hint that they’ll claim that Rossi/LC was and continued to be in breach through not having delivered all E-Cat IP to IH.

        As to Rossi’s Complaint respective of trade secrets, I see that IH is allowed under Section 1 to freely sublicense any of IH’s rights, and while I see that Rossi/LC is obliged to keep trade secrets under Section 16.4 I see no reciprocal obligation for IH.

  • akupaku

    I don’t care a **** about the legal details and fighting besides the entertainment value.

    What I am most interested in is the practical consequences regarding the production and marketing of E-Cat X (Quark?).

    1) Is this legal case going to affect the production of E-Cat X or Quarks or whatever they are called?
    2) Is the production and appearance on market delayed? By how much?
    3) Does Rossi need new investors and money to get the production started?
    4) What obstacles other than remaining R&D are there now to get production and sales started?

    Maybe somebody who is already well rehearsed in talking to Rossi can ask him these questions?

  • Евгений Максимов

    As usual the truth between.

  • Cedric Hazell

    As I see it non-payment means IH are in breach of contract and therefore have no claim on the tech/IP. Though this might be exactly what they want; cut there ties with Rossi take what they have learned from him and use it through another company (Brillouin) free from any obligations. This might actually help Rossi as he is no longer tied to a partner who is working against him. If I was Rossi I would focus on getting out of the contract and not try and hold IH to it. Maybe try for damages but at the very least makes sure the contract is voided.

    • Steve Swatman

      I like your thinking there, it may also be that Rossi caught what was happening within IH and Brillouin and decided not to keep IH informed of all the source upgrades, so IH and Brillouin are left with an outdated source and Rossi gets to keep the Quark and its IP’s.

    • Argon

      I was actually thinking the same, but does any of our readers know how these breach cases are handled in US. Could this also provide Rossi a way out from IH contract (and license) and start over with new partner (who would get license to US markets in place of IH)?
      At least I would make a purchase supporting original inventor than copycats.

    • Josh G

      Well IH is not in breach until Rossi can prove it in a court of law. Rossi says they didn’t pay the money they owed him; they say he didn’t deliver as promised. Now they have to hash it out in court before they can declare the contract dead.

      • Cedric Hazell

        Well I can see your point, but, it is not IH who first claimed the breach (not in court but in principal) by withholding due payment. Though not being a lawyer and not having seen the contract I am not sure (in theory) if Rossi did not produce what was required he was in breach of contract or just not entitled to payment. As always the devil is in the details. Although initially disappointed by the new developments I think the outcome will be positive, maybe not IH or Rossi but for the LENR movement. Though I do hope the outcome is a just one for all parties.

  • PD

    Very sad that this is all ending up in court. Beneficiaries will be the lawyers, and this will probably delay the product launch.

  • PD

    Very sad that this is all ending up in court. Beneficiaries will be the lawyers, and this will probably delay the product launch.

  • Pierre Beaulnes

    What about this : COLD FUSION IS REAL !!!!
    Aftenposten, a mainstream newspaper in Norway is publishing on Cold Fusion. COP 20 + Theory on the origin of cold fusion.
    http://atom-ecology.russgeorge.net/2016/04/03/cold-fusion-real-revolutionary-ready/

  • ebevogon

    As somebody who follows occasionally this blog I would like to ask the following question. Is it really true that Rossi was located most of the time inside the Ecat plant during the one year test?

    • Ged

      No way to know for sure. But all currently available evidence, including what others there have said, seems to indicate yes. Of course, he would have had to do business meeting and business trips, and he had a doctor’s check up, so he wasn’t there constantly. IH’s techs were also there the whole time.

      • US_Citizen71

        I think Rossi stayed 16 hours a day inside the container to prevent sabotage to the plant. He could have come running any hour of the day to fix a problem. He was there to guard his baby. He likely had at least one other person he felt that he could trust watch it while he slept. 10 days down time out of a year doesn’t really suggest a very problematic plant considering it is a prototype.

        • Rene

          It could be that or both situations, though throughout that long test he talked about monitoring the system, making changes, etc. The same went on with just about every case previous to the 1MW test run where he ran e-cats for a time, constant manual tweaks. Keeping the units in long SSM intervals has been his constant struggle. This contentious situation may be IH pairing two imperfect technologies then claiming *that* as novel hence patentable: Rossi’s clearly superior power ratio formulation and BLP’s control tech.
          Anyway, this entire mess leaves me with sadness. This demo plant was supposed to be the expedient toward fast construction/adoption and clear proof. The independent reporter wasn’t, the 3rd party plant wasn’t, the humanitarian oriented VC isn’t, the commercial ready power system isn’t. It may yet work but it now becomes an eventuality measured in many years.

  • ebevogon

    As somebody who follows occasionally this blog I would like to ask the following question. Is it really true that Rossi was located most of the time inside the Ecat plant during the one year test?

    • Ged

      No way to know for sure. But all currently available evidence, including what others there have said, seems to indicate yes. Of course, he would have had to do business meeting and business trips, and he had a doctor’s check up, so he wasn’t there constantly. IH’s techs were also there the whole time.

  • Argon

    I was actually thinking the same, but does any of our readers know how these breach cases are handled in US. Could this also provide Rossi a way out from IH contract (and license) and start over with new partner (who would get license to US markets in place of IH)?
    At least I would make a purchase supporting original inventor than copycats.

  • Josh G

    Well IH is not in breach until Rossi can prove it in a court of law. Rossi says they didn’t pay the money they owed him; they say he didn’t deliver as promised. Now they have to hash it out in court before they can declare the contract dead.

  • OG

    I have an idea that may help explain what IH is up to. They may be trying to use Rossi’s ideas and secret sauce (Rossi said he gave it to them) and combine it with Brillouin’s control system, which could be more efficient than Rossi’s. In other words, IH is trying to combine the best of both systems, get new patents and bypass Rossi. That’s how vulture investment firms do things. They just steal inventor’s IP. It happens all the time. They have a lot of money and can tie this up in the courts for years as they mass produce millions of units in China and elsewhere and make billions $. Rossi may be in for a rude surprise if this is what’s going on.

    • OG

      ***IH got investment from Woodford, etc. by convincing them they have an LENR reactor that’s better than Rossi’s. So yeah, Woodford checked out Rossi’s reactor thoroughly, but behind the scenes Darden and Woodford worked out a plan that doesn’t include Rossi.

    • Sanjeev

      Vulture investment firm..I like that phrase 😀

    • Brent Buckner

      In the License Agreement I see restrictions on Rossi/LC for handling of trade secrets (Section 16.4) but no such restrictions on IH. I also see in Section 1 that IH could freely sublicense any of IH’s rights. The License Agreement appears to me to allow IH to combine systems as you posit. Rossi’s Complaint respective of trade secrets doesn’t appear to me to be that IH was in violation of the License Agreement; rather, it seems to me to claim that IH was in a fiduciary relationship and breached a duty of care under that relationship (see paragraph 101 of the Complaint).

  • OG

    I have an idea that may help explain what IH is up to. They may be trying to use Rossi’s ideas and secret sauce (Rossi said he gave it to them) and combine it with Brillouin’s control system, which could be more efficient than Rossi’s. In other words, IH is trying to combine the best of both systems, get new patents and bypass Rossi. That’s how vulture investment firms do things. They just steal inventor’s IP. It happens all the time. They have a lot of money and can tie this up in the courts for years as they mass produce millions of units in China and elsewhere and make billions $. Rossi may be in for a rude surprise if this is what’s going on.

    • OG

      ***IH got investment from Woodford, etc. by convincing them they have an LENR reactor that’s better than Rossi’s. So yeah, Woodford checked out Rossi’s reactor thoroughly, but behind the scenes Darden and Woodford worked out a plan that doesn’t include Rossi.

    • Sanjeev

      Vulture investment firm..I like that phrase 😀

    • Brent Buckner

      In the License Agreement I see restrictions on Rossi/LC for handling of trade secrets (Section 16.4) but no such restrictions on IH. I also see in Section 1 that IH could freely sublicense any of IH’s rights. The License Agreement appears to me to allow IH to combine systems as you posit. Rossi’s Complaint respective of trade secrets doesn’t appear to me to be that IH was in violation of the License Agreement; rather, it seems to me to claim that IH was in a fiduciary relationship and breached a duty of care under that relationship (see paragraph 101 of the Complaint).

  • Mike Ivanov

    So now we actually see the snakes, AR used to talk about for long time?

  • Job001

    At the time I was puzzled by the Bill Gates “walk away” and 5 year prognosis.

    Now, hindsight helps. LENR IP is under a shell game to be resolved eventually by lawyers and thieves, maybe in 5 years or so.

    Thoughts of;”Den of thieves”, “Sticky Wicket”, “Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot”, “No real table to drop a billion on”, “I’m outta here” must have crossed his fine tuned business mind.

    If these guys(IH) are not careful they will be market obsolete before the technology(which one?) is marketed.

    Why? Because energy gets cheaper as we go down the learning curves. Coal and old generation Nuclear are now obsolete vs renewables and storage. Coal and nuclear failed to implement needed research and improvements. Oops, too late!

    Solar, wind, and storage synergy advances reduce renewable cost yearly. Renewable energy with storage is already cheap and cheaper every year.

    No time(27 years and counting) to waste boys!

    • Ophelia Rump

      What frequency are you tuning your hat to, to pull that in from the ether?

    • Hador_NYC

      Coal and nuclear are not obsolete thanks to reneweables and storage. There is no viable, cost effective, grid storage solution ready for a rich country market. There are several companies that are close, and I personally have small investments in several (so I won’t name names) but the tech is not there yet. I say this because we still need research and investment before such things can happen. You could say Gen4 fission reactors have made gen1 ones obsolete, sure even thought not one is built yet, the fact is the new designs are superior in many critical areas, primarily safety.

      Mine you, I hope coal and all can go away, but let’s not put the cart before the horse. The tech is not there yet, and in many places, say the northern places, solar is far from cost effective. Wind has it’s own problems with killing birds and bats. Nor does anyone from Google to Apple to Gates, and more think that reneweables can handle base load; other than dams, which again have their own problems.

      Nuclear is the only viable carbon free technology of today, and that’s why I have so many high hopes for LENR and even hot fusion (Lockheed Martin said a few years ago that the Skunkworks has a potential hot fusion solution, and of course Polywell fusion has potential.)

      • Job001

        Thanks for proving my case for the investor perspective. As against the best in class solar and wind costs and especially with pollution and escalating operating costs, first gen nuclear and coal are not being built, that’s what I meant as obsolete. Sure, some foolish investor can still build them, maybe somewhere…….

        • Hador_NYC

          You said reneweables with storage are cheap. They are not. There is no technology, proven, and manufacturable that can make reneweables with storage beat fission gen4. Investor or not, you need inventors, and investors in high risk inventors. Not, as you imply, investors in building reneweable power plants. Since Natural gas is cheap, and electric generation facilities using it are comparatively cheap, that is what people should invest in. That is what they have been investing in, and that’s primarily what’s been eating Coal’s lunch in terms of the US generation capacity.

          The fact remains that no battery technology, available on the market today, or proven short term is viable for the US or European markets. Only high cost markets, like Africa where in so many places there is no grid, does it make any sense at all. I will caveat my statement about the US and say that in Hawaii and rural Alaska, and I’m betting rural parts of Europe, it may.

          So if you are suggesting investing in high risk developing companies with potential tech that could address those short comings, yes, but that’s not what you said. If you are talking about investing in those facilities today, you are mistaken, depending on the build out and payback period of those facilities. I do agree that in 10 years to 20 years we could have a good battery, but for a lot more than 10 years such a battery has been 10 years away.

          • Job001

            Often batteries are not required for renewable energy, sometimes the grid is sufficient, sometimes use is tailored to supply. You seem to want to demand that storage is provided by renewables as part of your argument. Such is not the case where other generation sources are variable such as pumped storage or hydroelectric or natural gas generators.
            Additionally, my claim that energy is cheap rests on the fact that for the average consumer in the USA we spend less than 5% of our budget on energy. That is cheap!

  • Mike Ivanov

    So now we actually see the snakes, AR used to talk about for long time?

  • Job001

    At the time I was puzzled by the Bill Gates “walk away” and 5 year prognosis.

    Now, hindsight helps. LENR IP is under a shell game to be resolved eventually by lawyers and thieves, maybe in 5 years or so.

    Thoughts of;”Den of thieves”, “Sticky Wicket”, “Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot”, “No real table to drop a billion on”, “I’m outta here” must have crossed his fine tuned business mind.

    If these guys(IH) are not careful they will be market obsolete before the technology(which one?) is marketed.

    Why? Because energy gets cheaper as we go down the learning curves. Coal and old generation Nuclear are now obsolete vs renewables and storage. Coal and nuclear failed to implement needed research and improvements. Oops, too late!

    Solar, wind, and storage synergy advances reduce renewable cost yearly. Renewable energy with storage is already cheap and cheaper every year.

    No time(27 years and counting) to waste boys!

    • Hador_NYC

      Coal and nuclear are not obsolete thanks to reneweables and storage. There is no viable, cost effective, grid storage solution ready for a rich country market. There are several companies that are close, and I personally have small investments in several (so I won’t name names) but the tech is not there yet. I say this because we still need research and investment before such things can happen. You could say Gen4 fission reactors have made gen1 ones obsolete, sure even thought not one is built yet, the fact is the new designs are superior in many critical areas, primarily safety.

      Mine you, I hope coal and all can go away, but let’s not put the cart before the horse. The tech is not there yet, and in many places, say the northern places, solar is far from cost effective. Wind has it’s own problems with killing birds and bats. Nor does anyone from Google to Apple to Gates, and more think that reneweables can handle base load; other than dams, which again have their own problems.

      Nuclear is the only viable carbon free technology of today, and that’s why I have so many high hopes for LENR and even hot fusion (Lockheed Martin said a few years ago that the Skunkworks has a potential hot fusion solution, and of course Polywell fusion has potential.)

      • Renewables won’t need storage until they consistently make 60% or more of the daily power production in a given region which is still years away. And at that point standard lithium ion will do nicely.

        Nuclear fission is not economically viable at all. See details on the Hinkley project in the UK. Without corruption and stupidity keeping it alive nuclear would be completely dead.

      • Job001

        Thanks for proving my case for the investor perspective. As against the best in class solar and wind costs and especially with pollution and escalating operating costs, first gen nuclear and coal are not being built, that’s what I meant as obsolete. Sure, some foolish investor can still build them, maybe somewhere…….

        • Hador_NYC

          You said reneweables with storage are cheap. They are not. There is no technology, proven, and manufacturable that can make reneweables with storage beat fission gen4. Investor or not, you need inventors, and investors in high risk inventors. Not, as you imply, investors in building reneweable power plants. Since Natural gas is cheap, and electric generation facilities using it are comparatively cheap, that is what people should invest in. That is what they have been investing in, and that’s primarily what’s been eating Coal’s lunch in terms of the US generation capacity.

          The fact remains that no battery technology, available on the market today, or proven short term is viable for the US or European markets. Only high cost markets, like Africa where in so many places there is no grid, does it make any sense at all. I will caveat my statement about the US and say that in Hawaii and rural Alaska, and I’m betting rural parts of Europe, it may.

          So if you are suggesting investing in high risk developing companies with potential tech that could address those short comings, yes, but that’s not what you said. If you are talking about investing in those facilities today, you are mistaken, depending on the build out and payback period of those facilities. I do agree that in 10 years to 20 years we could have a good battery, but for a lot more than 10 years such a battery has been 10 years away.

          • Job001

            Often batteries are not required for renewable energy, sometimes the grid is sufficient, sometimes use is tailored to supply. You seem to want to demand that storage is provided by renewables as part of your argument. Such is not the case where other generation sources are variable such as pumped storage or hydroelectric or natural gas generators.
            Additionally, my claim that energy is cheap rests on the fact that for the average consumer in the USA we spend less than 5% of our budget on energy. That is cheap!

    • Philippe Goulet

      Have you seriously looked in solar, wind or other renewable energy’s return on investement ? Coal, shale gas, petrolium, are still the cheapest and most reliable way produce usefull energy. Anybody who claims the contrairy, I fear, as just not crunched the numbers.

      • Job001

        Seriously crunching the numbers includes externalities; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
        Health, mass extinction #6, AGW climate destruction of investments, systemic economic instability, and so forth.
        I fear you’ve ignored these costs, as if we should just continue to do so in-spite of abundant evidence to the contrary.

        Additionally, don’t ignore the learning curves, investments start and end in a typically distant future when competitive sources of energy are even cheaper, proper investment analysis shows where the learning curve costs will be at the beginning and the end of the investment. For instance, solar installed costs per KwHr have declined over 100 times due to the learning curve since 1970 and this is projected to continue for another 20 years. For instance, the cheapest wind contracts may run under $0.025/KwHr now, so energy is cheap frankly.

        Last, don’t ignore that the individual investors who have different capital costs, write-offs, alternate capital use, tax structures, incentives and so forth. Our typical large scale analysis tends to ignore the investor specifics, for instance, I don’t want a gigawatt coal plant, I need about 5Kw for my home and presently use the good old utility company. However, I just may find the right solar investment profitable as I see many self sufficient home owners are finding.

  • Ged

    Customer paid $1000 a day, which was half the price an average electric bill would be for 1MW. That’s the most we know right now.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Fascinating. Can you provide the link?

  • malkom700

    Perhaps the debate seems to about nothing. If the E-Cat X is much better than the E-Cat will soon be on sale. Due to the small dimensions with little money will soon be implemented for series production.

    • Mats002

      IH can not ‘substansiate’ the tech they are in control of because they are in control of E-Cat 1.0 which gives COP ~6 but they do not possess the knowhow to make higher COPs and certainly not E-CatX. Rossi claim he is the sole owner of all the IP and refuse to transfer knowhow.

      Businesswise for IH/Darden this is a total failure for the partnership.

      Maybe. Stay tuned…

      • Ged

        That explanation would be parsimonious with the claims so far from both sides.

        • Mats002

          Yes, the 4x250kW version came about in the middle of the 1 year test, and later on the X-version.

          If this is true I must admit AR is a super inventor as if he wasn’t already with the first version.

          • wpj

            No it didn’t; they switched to the 4 x 250 before the test commenced (it was reported that there was a false start to the test and they had to restart).

            Additionally, it seems to have been something in the Lugano test which gave Rossi an insight into how to improve things.

          • Mats002

            No it didn’t; they switched to the 4 x 250 summer 2015, see link above.

          • BillH

            So, who owns this piece of kit and was it agreed to by IH that the test would continue with the new hardware?

          • US_Citizen71
          • Mike

            Is the conclusion that there is no one-year test since the plant design changed considerably during the test?

          • Frank Acland

            They intended to start the test in 2014, but had problems with the smaller reactors. so they built larger ones that were apparently easier to handle. Rossi said that the clock on the 1 year test started ticking on February 20th 2015, this was after the larger E-Cat reactors were installed.

          • Mike

            Again, different answers circulate…….confusing.

          • wpj

            Yes, that is the way that I tried to describe it above!

          • wpj

            No, there was even suggestions of doing it with a hot cat in the contract.

          • BillH

            This could be a crucial point, exactly which E-Cat did IH buy and what plant did the customer actually lease. At the moment I’m thinking the x4 250KW version, but if it was the earlier version sitting on site as a backup it may be that the whole test might have become invalid since it wasn’t done on the correct plant.

            But surely IH agreed that the test was to be carried out using the x4 250KW or the test would not have proceeded? The whole thing hinges on which plant the test was carried out on and who owned it.

          • US_Citizen71

            The 2nd amendment to the license has the plant changed to a 6 cylinder model. I assume this is what they called the 4 x 250kW modules.

            http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.4.pdf

      • Sanjeev

        I don’t know which is which, but as per Rossi, they built the hot cats, which reached a COP of 50. This is all they need I think.
        Edit: Not sure about COP.

        • artefact

          I also don’t know. Rossi said they built it. But maybe he meant the old version with the 100 reactors and not the new version with 4 250KW modules which was built just before the start.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            The backup was 52 reactors.

      • Mike

        100 or 52 or 4 reactors? Lowtemp, high temp or x-version…… But who knows for sure and don’t speculate?

        • Mats002

          First time we heard of the larger 250kW modules was may 19 2015, at that time those where tested and not part of the 1MW plant, see:

          http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/05/19/rossi-on-stable-250-kw-e-cat-reactor-buck/

          • Mike

            So…..these modules were not used in the one-year test. Have any photos of these 250 kW units been published?

          • Frank Acland

            Yes one is on the andrea-rossi.com website. It’s the one with him listening through the stethoscope.

          • Mike

            I can not find it. Do you have a more exact link to the image?

          • Frank Acland
          • Mike

            Thanks, but what is inside the box? What is generating noise or sound? I can only think of a flowing liquid, ie cooling water. Stetoscopes may be useful if there are moving parts, but nowadays we can use better sensors.

          • Andrew

            I think it was more of a joke than anything…. Dr Rossi doing a check up.

          • Mike

            Hmmmm….Two different answers

          • Frank Acland

            Rossi said at the time he learns a lot from listening to the E-Cats.

            Andrea Rossi
            June 6, 2015 at 9:19 AM
            Peggy Herein:
            I can only disclose the more logic and simple, because the others are bound to confidential issues: with the stethoscope I can hear clearly the intensity of the boiling process in all the points between the reactor and the heat exchanger, to check that the heat exchange is uniform or if there are weak points. This is easy and direct. Other things are more complicated. In general, through the stethoscope She talks to my instinct; it does not substitute the data control gauges, of course, but helps to understand what is coming next while the data gauges say that everything is all right; the gauges speak to the brain, the stethoscope speaks to the guts.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.

            http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510&cpage=70#comment-1086915

          • Mike

            How do you separate bad and good boiling? Never heard it, but to diagnose mechanical parts is OK

          • Loud popping sounds mean over-temp or water flow problems, soft hissing and bubbling means all OK. And as you say, failing mechanical parts such as pump bearings and seals, or broken rotors give themselves away because of the unusual noises.

          • wpj

            He explained, at the time, that he was taught to listen to the sounds that were made which allowed monitoring of how well things were operating.

          • Mike

            But what is a possible source of these sounds?

          • Pumps, water swirling in pipes and bubbling as it boils, mechanical thermostats and relays clicking, motorised valves opening and closing, metal creaking as temperatures change…

          • Mats002

            AR switched over to the 4×250 during summer 2015. Then the 10/15kW setup became the backup system.

          • Mike

            Do I understand you correctly that the plant design was not the same in the beginning and in the end of the one-year test? If so, what is the value of the test?

          • wpj

            He says there “test on course” which is, presumably, the 4 x 250 set up with the different charge loads.

            Interestingly, the customer was revealed on that post…………

          • Mats002

            He he! Peanut gallery rules ^^

            Axil gave Rossi directions in that thread too and some high class open source peanut engineering as well.

  • Tadej

    Open source it and make them think all the gold in the universe is lost.

    • lucasnw

      Or leak it a la Wikileaks.

  • Teemu Soilamo
    • Brokeeper

      Allow me to share with you my thoughts about ‘Freedom vs Control’ from my past
      stupido hard-knocks lessons in life thinking control was a better path. This posted in Sifferkoll comments:

      Agreed, but it has always been “…All About Freedom vs Control!”. Freedom is a
      gift and control is an illusion. Yes, we have the power of ‘freedom of choice’ but hard lessons are learned from making wrong choices especially on those taking those freedoms from others through control that effects all. This sets in motion the irrefutable dynamic laws of consequences rectifying those wrong choices through pain, stress and misery. A higher designer calls it the ‘laws of love’ designed for our betterment. That law in my opinion, eventually in time (perhaps very long time), will win over as history has shown over and over again.
      Thank you for your wonderful insights and balance of reasoning Sifferkoll. (Brokeeper)

  • Teemu Soilamo
    • Brokeeper

      Allow me to share with you my thoughts about ‘Freedom vs Control’ from my past
      stupido hard-knocks lessons in life thinking control was a better path. This posted in Sifferkoll comments:

      Agreed, but it has always been “…All About Freedom vs Control!”. Freedom is a
      gift and control is an illusion. Yes, we have the power of ‘freedom of choice’ but hard lessons are learned from making wrong choices especially on those taking those freedoms from others through control that effects all. This sets in motion the irrefutable dynamic laws of consequences rectifying those wrong choices through pain, stress and misery. A higher designer calls it the ‘laws of love’ designed for our betterment. That law in my opinion, eventually in time (perhaps very long time), will win over as history has shown over and over again.
      Thank you for your wonderful insights and balance of reasoning Sifferkoll. (Brokeeper)

  • Shiv

    So is IH going to return the 60 mill they took from their investors?
    No. I am laughing. Broad daylight robbery.

    • Philippe Goulet

      I don’t see it as robbery. Investors are just that : investors. They get sold the possibility to gain from an investement. With this transaction, comes risks associated with this possible gain. I for one have invested money in funds, some of these investement have made profits some others have been lost, I was never robbed of my money.

  • Sylvie Cemoi

    I just posted a question on the JONP website:

    “Dear Andrea,

    Do you think Industrial Heat will mass produce a LENR device soon (within 2016)?

    Best Regards,

    Sylvie”

    I don’t think he will answer. Last time I posted a question on his blog (several years ago), it was deleted.

  • Josh G

    It appears that IH licensed Brillouin’s tech in December 2013, and by March 2014 they were already testing a prototype ‘hydrogen hot tube’ E-cat knock-off:

    From Brillouin’s website: http://brillouinenergy.com/about/milestones/

    > SRI runs tests first Brillouin Hydrogen Hot Tube (HHT) system and succeeds in showing occasional evidence of excess heat in its operation – March 2014

    > Commercial sales breakthrough as Brillouin Energy signs its first paid Licensing Agreement for its CECR Technologies – December 2013

    Their demonstration in front of Congress doesn’t come until November, 2015. Note however that their hot tube uses Rossi’s old hydrogen gas system, not the newer powder formula.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    A really crazy thought: what if IH are secretly humanitarians who are trying to accelerate the advent LENR by distributing the know-how to as many companies as possible?

    • Ged

      I figured that would be exactly in line with Darden’s world view–that he wouldn’t want this invention in one person’s hands. Once the genie is out of the bottle, and the information is out there, it can’t be put back in.

      • Sanjeev

        But he had the invention in his hands, a miraculous energy generator, he could do anything with it legally. He could have changed the world. Something went wrong. I’m still scratching my head, its so mind boggling.

      • Jonnyb

        Nah, possibly just greedy, but of course I could be wrong. If Andrea makes a mint then he deserves it. Let us hope he has the backing of someone better, say Gates, Musk, the one beginning with Z or even Woodford.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Hasn’t Darden gone on record saying he doesn’t care how the technology gets to market, as long as it gets there?

        He’s playing really dirty by Rossi, if that’s the case. The ultimate utilitarian?

    • pg

      I think you gave the answer to the question in your first 4 words.

      • Ged

        But they did distribute the know-how to Brillouin. And we don’t know if they did to anyone else, though Rossi hints at such. However, that was apparently in their rights in the contract to sub-license at will.

        • pg

          but not for humanitarian reasons, just to have total control

          • Ged

            But Darden is described as a humanitarian, and his world view is extremely in that camp. But yes, that also gives them total control. Who says one can’t have it both ways ;)?

          • pg

            There is no such thing as seeking total control for humanitarian reasons

          • Ged

            I agree! But anyone with noble cause corruption often believe it is not only possible, but even necessary.

          • Brokeeper

            Humanitarian vs humanitarian? Why not join forces?

          • Ged

            One likes to help people, one likes to eat people. Truly, a battle of the ages! I think you just wrote the seed of yet another movie plot.

          • kdk

            I don’t think that it’s likely to succeed with all of us who have been following this for years. Which, of course, doesn’t mean that somebody won’t try something like that. They have to know that fossil fuels aren’t viable, this might just be about who gets to control the next major energy source.

        • Andrew

          Nice? A reverse engineering sub licence

  • Teemu Soilamo

    A really crazy thought: what if IH are secretly humanitarians who are trying to accelerate the advent LENR by distributing the know-how to as many companies as possible?

    • Ged

      I figured that would be exactly in line with Darden’s world view–that he wouldn’t want this invention in one person’s hands. Once the genie is out of the bottle, and the information is out there, it can’t be put back in.

      • Sanjeev

        But he had the invention in his hands, a miraculous energy generator, he could do anything with it legally. He could have changed the world. Something went wrong. I’m still scratching my head, its so mind boggling.

        • Philippe Goulet

          The only explaination is that no investor found it financialy viable to invest in. Thats just the way investement works. Sure anybody can try to sell something with bogus claims but no serious investors will buy into this without proof of what is being claimed. How do you think investors make money ? Poeple with money work hard at crunching numbers and lowering the risk as much as possible before making the decision to buy into an investement.

      • Jonnyb

        Nah, possibly just greedy, but of course I could be wrong. If Andrea makes a mint then he deserves it. Let us hope he has the backing of someone better, say Gates, Musk, the one beginning with Z or even Woodford.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Hasn’t Darden gone on record saying that he doesn’t care how the technology gets to market, as long as it gets there?

        He’s playing really dirty by Rossi, if that’s the case. The ultimate utilitarian?

    • pg

      I think you gave the answer to the question in your first 4 words.

      • Ged

        But they did distribute the know-how to Brillouin. And we don’t know if they did to anyone else, though Rossi hints at such. However, that was apparently in their rights in the contract to sub-license at will.

        • pg

          but not for humanitarian reasons, just to have total control

          • Ged

            But Darden is described as a humanitarian, and his world view is extremely in that camp. But yes, that also gives them total control. Who says one can’t have it both ways ;)?

          • pg

            There is no such thing as seeking total control for humanitarian reasons

          • Ged

            I agree! But anyone with noble cause corruption often believe it is not only possible, but even necessary.

          • Brokeeper

            Humanitarian vs humanitarian? Why not join forces?

          • Ged

            One likes to help people, one likes to eat people. Truly, a battle of the ages! I think you just wrote the seed of yet another movie plot.

        • Andrew

          Nice? A reverse engineering sub licence

        • Guest

          That is an unfounded accusation (at least based on currently known facts, not just Rossi says/hints).

  • wpj

    He explained, at the time, that he was taught to listen to the sounds that were made which allowed monitoring of how well things were operating.

  • BillH

    A few points to take away from yesterday revelations:
    1) The customer was supplied by Leonardo, not by IH
    2) The plant was owned by IH, they paid $1.5M for it. Exactly which plant that was is unclear to me at present.
    3) The customer leased the plant for $1000/day to supply the contracted for thermal power.

    The quickest way to confirm the satisfactory operation of the plant would be to visit the site and see it in operation. The plant, even though it is owned by IH should not be allowed to be moved under any circumstance by any party as it forms primary evidence.
    The supporting evidence would be the ERV report and testimony from the ERV, the customer and AR as to the satisfactory operation of the plant.

    The misappropriation of IP is a separate issue and should be investigated thoroughly.

  • Frank Acland

    From the Court Docket:

    April 6: ” Case re-categorized as PATENT case and reassigned to Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga for all further proceedings”

    https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/11135976/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al

    • pg

      S..t

    • wpj

      Not good- that patent is only a small part of this.

      • Ged

        Hmm. The main part of Rossi’s filing is not being paid as per contract. So that contention still must be addressed, I would think, but now from a patent angle? What will that do to the proceedings?

        • wpj

          Slow it down more and cost more when it has to go back to other courts. I suppose that AR’s lawyer can contest this as it is more breach of contract.

          • Ged

            I’m hoping they will contest this, indeed. Could the case be split into two–one case for the breach, and another for that IP filing behind Rossi’s back?

          • wpj

            Who knows…… A renowned legal chap in one of the other recent threads said that IH had no chance of fighting this. Hope that he is correct.

          • Ged

            If they focus just on the patent and ignored all else, it could be IH would win…

          • Sanjeev

            Possible. But Rossi can always file more cases.

          • Ged

            If someone is playing a delay game, that would delay matters very nicely, though

          • DrD

            And with the US patent office still refusing to accept any application that mentions LENR or cold fusion it could easily get bogged down and thrown out.

          • Time for Rossi to up sticks again, and head for Sweden or England.

          • SG

            There is also the possibility that some of Mr. Rossi’s patent applications have been slapped with secrecy orders by the USPTO. If that happens, the patent application can enter a black hole for decades. Some patent applications filed in the WWII era for encryption related technologies are just now being granted due to prolonged secrecy orders.

          • Sanjeev

            That’s the plan precisely.

          • Obvious

            The usual tactic is to toss as many accusations into the original document as possible, and then the court and lawyers may whittle the number down, disallowing some or suggesting to the plaintiff to drop parts, during preliminary phases as info comes in from both sides. Then the actual trial can proceed with a slightly more streamlined version of accusations.

          • DrD

            Looks more like premeditated fraud to me.
            And we have no idea what vested interests might be having an influence in the system.
            This is very bad news.

          • Ged

            Considering the judge is still rather high profile, it seems the courts must be taking this much more seriously than a simple disputed patent case.

          • wpj

            Yes, a lot.

            Read

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/08/rossi-provides-explanation-about-1mw-plant-customer/

            All explained in there and Rossi had to get the client/permissions at IH did nothing about the 1 year test

      • Andrew

        Unless IH is claiming the tech is theirs with their patents. Looking at the judges bio she doesn’t seem to specialize in patents…. Wonder if someone is pulling strings?

        • Ged

          Yeah, it’s weird. She handles very different cases, and a patent case seems to be beneath her. But I don’t know how the system doles out cases to its roster of judges.

    • Ged
      • wpj
        • Ged

          A game of musical judge chairs?

        • Buck

          He is the magistrate judge on this case. He supports the district judge in the preparation of the case.

          Definition: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m057.htm

        • Mike Henderson

          Search.sunbiz.org will give you the principal business address for both JM Products and JM Chemical Products … same address. You can see it on Google Maps and Bing aerial. They may have leased an empty light industrial / warehouse space for a year just for the test. No prying eyes. No downstream process to upset. Low risk if something goes wrong. But not what I picture for a nuclear power plant test.

          • Loud popping sounds mean over-temp or water flow problems, soft hissing and bubbling means all OK. And as you say, failing mechanical parts such as pump bearings or broken rotors give themselves away because of the unusual noises.

          • Omega Z

            Actually,
            JM Products and JM Chemical Products pull the same JM Products Document Number P14000056117.
            The document doesn’t even have JM Chemical Products listed on it, but JM Products.

          • Mike Henderson

            There’s an amendment in Oct 2015 adding “Chemical” to the name.

          • TVulgaris

            Google how big a conventional diesel or NG 1 MW “boiler” is (or 4 X250 KW, more appropriately). A bit bigger than a container, but not much.

    • Sanjeev

      This twists it even more. A mis-categorization will delay it, perhaps someone wants that.

      • Ged

        And the judge isn’t a patent judge, to make matters even more twisty.

        • She’s probably someone’s judge though – from what I’ve seen of the work of the US judiciary when very large amounts of money are involved. Strings are being pulled.

          Edit: I see that Andrew has already made this suggestion.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Oh….now it is going to be a decade before it is resolved.

  • Frank Acland

    From the Court Docket:

    April 6: ” Case re-categorized as PATENT case and reassigned to Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga for all further proceedings”

    https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/11135976/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al

    • pg

      S..t

    • wpj

      Not good- that patent is only a small part of this.

      • Ged

        Hmm. The main part of Rossi’s filing is not being paid as per contract. So that contention still must be addressed, I would think, but now from a patent angle? What will that do to the proceedings?

        • wpj

          Slow it down more and cost more when it has to go back to other courts. I suppose that AR’s lawyer can contest this as it is more breach of contract.

          • Ged

            I’m hoping they will contest this, indeed. Could the case be split into two–one case for the breach, and another for that IP filing behind Rossi’s back?

          • wpj

            Who knows…… A renowned legal chap in one of the other recent threads said that IH had no chance of fighting this. Hope that he is correct.

          • Ged

            If they focus just on the patent and ignored all else, it could be IH would win…

          • Sanjeev

            Possible. But Rossi can always file more cases.

          • Ged

            If someone is playing a delay game, that would delay matters very nicely, though

          • DrD

            And with the US patent office still refusing to accept any application that mentions LENR or cold fusion it could easily get bogged down and thrown out.

          • Time for Rossi to up sticks again, and head for Sweden or England.

          • SG

            There is also the possibility that some of Mr. Rossi’s patent applications have been slapped with secrecy orders by the USPTO. If that happens, the patent application can enter a black hole for decades. Some patent applications filed in the WWII era for encryption related technologies are just now being granted due to prolonged secrecy orders.

          • Sanjeev

            That’s the plan precisely.

          • Obvious

            The usual tactic is to toss as many accusations into the original document as possible, and then the court and lawyers may whittle the number down, disallowing some or suggesting to the plaintiff to drop parts, during preliminary phases as info comes in from both sides. Then the actual trial can proceed with a slightly more streamlined version of accusations.

          • DrD

            Looks more like premeditated fraud to me.
            And we have no idea what vested interests might be having an influence in the system.
            This is very bad news.

          • Ged

            Considering the judge is still rather high profile, it seems the courts must be taking this much more seriously than a simple disputed patent case.

      • Andrew

        Unless IH is claiming the tech is theirs with their patents. Looking at the judges bio she doesn’t seem to specialize in patents…. Wonder if someone is pulling strings?

        • Ged

          Yeah, it’s weird. She handles very different cases, and a patent case seems to be beneath her. But I don’t know how the system doles out cases to its roster of judges.

    • Ged

      The new judge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecilia_Altonaga

      Edit: Like the former judge, she also appears to be rather famous and high tier.

    • Sanjeev

      This twists it even more. A mis-categorization will delay it, perhaps someone wants that.

      • Ged

        And the judge isn’t a patent judge, to make matters even more twisty.

        • She’s probably someone’s judge though – from what I’ve seen of the work of the US judiciary when very large amounts of money are involved. Strings are being pulled.

          Edit: I see that Andrew has already made this suggestion.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Oh….now it is going to be a decade before it is resolved, while IH can go ahead with developing and using Rossi IP without paying him. Rossi should continue to try this case on the internet!!

  • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

    I see something fishy here and we are with two options. It works – then IH lies. It doesnt work – then Rossi lies.

    According
    to all the data, to me, see that Rossi lies is doubtful. No one would
    pay 10 million without proper research. Also the fundings from Cherokee
    support my theory.

    But there is something that came to my mind if we add all the facts.
    IH filled a patent – No one would fill a patent of something that doesnt work.
    Rossi said that they broke the License Agreement giving info to a rival and as far as we know that could be true.

    So,
    i want to add one thing . Just a few days after the test finished,
    Arabia Saudi, wrote that they would create a fund for their oil.
    What if IH received a big sum from a petrol company to stall the process until they get rid of their oil.

    The
    easiest way to do that is what they did if we trust Rossi. Transfer the
    information to another company. Claim that it doesnt work. Then after
    the fund is created and sold the oil company would give them a huge sum
    of money to be the Licensess of the technology to start to use it.

    It
    may be a single coincidence but yesterday I talk with a cousin of mine
    wich works in forex and told me that they are all aware of this
    technology since months ago even they didnt have so much info. So it
    seems that the market is really reflecting the result of a viable
    technology.

    To me there are too much hints to point that way, and
    to stall the technology they need Rossi out of the game because he wants
    to launch the technology right now..

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “Rossi said that they broke the License Agreement giving info to a rival and as far as we know that could be true.”

      It’s not obvious to me that IH giving information to a rival of Rossi’s would break the License Agreement. Looking at the License Agreement, I see that under section 1 IH has the right to freely sublicense any of their rights under the Agreement. I see that under section 16.4 that Rossi/LC has an obligation to keep trade secrets confidential, but I see no reciprocal obligation on IH. Rossi’s Complaint (paragraph 101) doesn’t state that IH broke the language of the License Agreement, it states that in becoming an exclusive licensee that IH assumed a fiduciary duty to Rossi/LC.

      • wpj

        The terms of the license was a payment of $100.5m. The IP knowledge was supplied to them after the payment of $11.5m, essentially so they could get ready for developing the technology.

        It’s true that maybe AFTER the final payment, they could have done this, but terms of the license deal have not been fulfilled.

        • Brent Buckner

          I see no such temporal restriction.

          The License commenced on the date of the Agreement; all the E-Cat IP was to be delivered to IH after payment of the $10M for Validation. Recording of the License was at IH’s discretion at any time.

          I suppose we’ll see whether or not IH makes any such claim.

          • wpj

            “The total price for the grant of the license and the purchase of the plant is $100.5m”

            I don’t see where the wiggle room is.

          • Sanjeev

            See 1.1
            3.2(b) says that license commences on payment of $10M. That is its effective then and there.

          • wpj

            I understand that, but it is surely conditional on them having to pay the full sum rather than what they decide is correct. This means that they still keep the license without full payment, which is clearly not legal (as Rossi is saying).

          • Sanjeev

            I agree. Its not totally legal, its a loop hole. May be an escape hole made by IH so that they can hold the final payment without affecting their status as a licensee.
            Rossi somehow missed this, and many more traps.

          • Maybe he can afford a better lawyer now. The last one seems to have been acting on IH’s behalf more than Rossi’s.

          • Omega Z

            Being someone who can become very vindictive, I wonder should push come to shove, what happens should Rossi sell the IP Patent to say, GE or Siemens outright. I see nothing in the Rossi/Darden Agreement that covers this possibility.

            Years ago, I passed on a territory franchise. The person who took it up thought I was silly. However, a year later he was served papers saying that the new owner would only recognise the agreement for 1 additional year at which time all agreements cease. Legally, the new owner had no obligation to continue the arrangment beyond I think it was a 30 day notice. Note: The former franchisee could still sell their product, but so could any other retail/installer anywhere. Including myself.

            Note also, GE and Siemens have more annual discretionary spending then the net worth of all those involved in LENR including the combined worth of Cherokee/Woodford. All bets would be off. They could manufacture and sell anywhere.

          • Brent Buckner

            The question is what rights IH had after making the $10 million payment and before the $89million payment was due.

          • wpj

            Precisely, but that isn’t specified and IH seem to have got rather carried away (they seem, according to Rossi, to have thought that they OWNED the IP rather than licensed it for their use).

          • Brent Buckner

            I think it is specified – IH had the right to all trade secrets respective of the E-Cat IP and no obligation to maintain trade secrets. Further, IH had the right to freely sublicense any of its rights under the Agreement.

          • Omega Z

            “no obligation to maintain trade secrets”
            I think something of this nature was covered that was to protect both parties..

          • Brent Buckner

            In several areas the License Agreement doesn’t seem constructed to protect both parties (cf. Martin Tornberg’s comment on conflicting interests: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4241 )

  • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

    I see something fishy here and we are with two options. It works – then IH lies. It doesnt work – then Rossi lies.

    According
    to all the data, to me, see that Rossi lies is doubtful. No one would
    pay 10 million without proper research. Also the fundings from Cherokee
    support my theory.

    But there is something that came to my mind if we add all the facts.
    IH filled a patent – No one would fill a patent of something that doesnt work.
    Rossi said that they broke the License Agreement giving info to a rival and as far as we know that could be true.

    So,
    i want to add one thing . Just a few days after the test finished,
    Arabia Saudi, wrote that they would create a fund for their oil.
    What if IH received a big sum from a petrol company to stall the process until they get rid of their oil.

    The
    easiest way to do that is what they did if we trust Rossi. Transfer the
    information to another company. Claim that it doesnt work. Then after
    the fund is created and sold the oil company would give them a huge sum
    of money to be the Licensess of the technology to start to use it.

    It
    may be a single coincidence but yesterday I talk with a cousin of mine
    wich works in forex and told me that they are all aware of this
    technology since months ago even they didnt have so much info. So it
    seems that the market is really reflecting the result of a viable
    technology.

    To me there are too much hints to point that way, and
    to stall the technology they need Rossi out of the game because he wants
    to launch the technology right now..

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “Rossi said that they broke the License Agreement giving info to a rival and as far as we know that could be true.”

      It’s not obvious to me that IH giving information to a rival of Rossi’s would break the License Agreement. Looking at the License Agreement, I see that under section 1 IH has the right to freely sublicense any of their rights under the Agreement. I see that under section 16.4 that Rossi/LC has an obligation to keep trade secrets confidential, but I see no reciprocal obligation on IH. Rossi’s Complaint (paragraph 101) doesn’t state that IH broke the language of the License Agreement, it states that in becoming an exclusive licensee that IH assumed a fiduciary duty to Rossi/LC.

      • wpj

        The terms of the license was a payment of $100.5m. The IP knowledge was supplied to them after the payment of $11.5m, essentially so they could get ready for developing the technology.

        It’s true that maybe AFTER the final payment, they could have done this, but terms of the license deal have not been fulfilled.

        • Brent Buckner

          I see no such temporal restriction.

          The License commenced on the date of the Agreement; all the E-Cat IP was to be delivered to IH after payment of the $10M for Validation. Recording of the License was at IH’s discretion at any time.

          I suppose we’ll see whether or not IH makes any such claim.

          • wpj

            “The total price for the grant of the license and the purchase of the plant is $100.5m”

            I don’t see where the wiggle room is.

          • Sanjeev

            See 1.1
            3.2(b) says that license commences on payment of $10M. That is its effective then and there.

          • wpj

            I understand that, but it is surely conditional on them having to pay the full sum rather than what they decide is correct. This means that they still keep the license without full payment, which is clearly not legal (as Rossi is saying).

          • Sanjeev

            I agree. Its not totally legal, its a loop hole. May be an escape hole made by IH so that they can hold the final payment without affecting their status as a licensee.
            Rossi somehow missed this, and many more traps.

          • Maybe he can afford a better lawyer now. The last one seems to have been acting on IH’s behalf more than Rossi’s.

          • Omega Z

            Being someone who can become very vindictive, I wonder should push come to shove, what happens should Rossi sell the IP Patent to say, GE or Siemens outright. I see nothing in the Rossi/Darden Agreement that covers this possibility.

            Years ago, I passed on a territory franchise. The person who took it up thought I was silly. However, a year later he was served papers saying that the new owner would only recognise the agreement for 1 additional year at which time all agreements cease. Legally, the new owner had no obligation to continue the arrangment beyond I think it was a 30 day notice. Note: The former franchisee could still sell their product, but so could any other retail/installer anywhere. Including myself.

            Note also, GE and Siemens have more annual discretionary spending then the net worth of all those involved in LENR including the combined worth of Cherokee/Woodford. All bets would be off. They could manufacture and sell anywhere.

          • Brent Buckner

            The question is what rights IH had after making the $10 million payment and before the $89million payment was due.

          • wpj

            Precisely, but that isn’t specified and IH seem to have got rather carried away (they seem, according to Rossi, to have thought that they OWNED the IP rather than licensed it for their use).

          • Brent Buckner

            I think it is specified – IH had the right to all trade secrets respective of the E-Cat IP and no obligation to maintain trade secrets. Further, IH had the right to freely sublicense any of its rights under the Agreement.

          • Omega Z

            “no obligation to maintain trade secrets”
            I think something of this nature was covered that was to protect both parties..

          • Brent Buckner

            In several areas the License Agreement doesn’t seem constructed to protect both parties (cf. Martin Tornberg’s comment on conflicting interests: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4241 )

    • Philippe Goulet

      This theory doesn’t hold much ground in my mind, If Rossi whants to go ahead and release (sell) it’s technology to anyone, he can find any willing buyer at any time. If he cannot find one, he is either a verry bad promoter of the technology or more likely, the technology is not working. A technology that works cannot be stopped, buyers are going to find value in it and be willing to risk capital acquireing it. I know people that think some technologies where bought by petrobusinnes and put to rest this way, but I cannot understand in my mind how this could be a reality, unless the technology would never provide a possible return on investemment and therfore not gain any interrest from any other investor.

      • Sanjeev

        If Rossi whants to go ahead and release (sell) it’s technology to anyone, he can find any willing buyer at any time.

        He can’t do that without getting into trouble with IH. The clause 13.2 forces him to offer the IP rights of other territories to IH first, and only if IH rejects the offer, he can go ahead and get another licensee. In other words IH controls who gets Rossi’s IP and where.

        Why did Rossi sign such an agreement is beyond me.

        • Philippe Goulet

          So if IH is not interessted (and they surely seem not willing to invest more), Rossi could go and offer is product to any other investor ? I see no problems there.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, he can and probably he has. (Because he recently said that he doesn’t need any more funding to start the production).
            The only risk is, IH can drag him to court demanding damages as this will be a breach of the agreement. That’s just an annoyance from Rossi’s point of view, but it will delay his projects.
            This risk will remain till IH terminates the agreement formally, either inside or outside the court.

        • Rossi’s recent comments indicate that he no longer feels bound by the agreement with IH. Probably he never considered the X/quark tech bound by it anyway. The potential profits – if he can somehow get a product safety certified wherever he plans to market – would reduce any damages awarded by a court to insignificance. Possession is nine tenths of the law (possession of the ‘quark’ IP in this instance).

          I would add though that until now Rossi has been allowed a free path because IH had probably committed to a careful, slow introduction in hand with the existing stakeholders. On his own though he becomes a loose cannon, threatening the stability of the energy market and the profits of the cartels. His safety in now in jeopardy, and I hope he is taking all the necessary precautions.

          • Sanjeev

            The agreement is void now, informally speaking. But the final ruling will decide what remains of the agreement.

          • He (AR) may become even more flameproof if he is planning to move his base to Europe (UK or Sweden).

          • Brokeeper

            I forsee a battle of sematics brewing.

        • Omega Z

          How can 13.2 apply to existing License.
          I believe that applies if a territory should open up for some reason or a territory should be split.

          • Sanjeev

            No it doesn’t apply to IH’s territory, which surely they alone control.
            Its for rest of the world.

          • Omega Z

            But the rest of the World is already licensed pre-Industrial heat.
            Oh well, Rossi can just sell the IP itself to Siemens. A 100 Billion$ behemoth. All bets and deals are off. We know who will win that fight.

          • Sanjeev

            I know of hydrofusion in Europe, who is still there. Rest is unconfirmed.

  • Frank Acland

    Rossi said at the time he learns a lot from listening to the E-Cats.

    Andrea Rossi
    June 6, 2015 at 9:19 AM
    Peggy Herein:
    I can only disclose the more logic and simple, because the others are bound to confidential issues: with the stethoscope I can hear clearly the intensity of the boiling process in all the points between the reactor and the heat exchanger, to check that the heat exchange is uniform or if there are weak points. This is easy and direct. Other things are more complicated. In general, through the stethoscope She talks to my instinct; it does not substitute the data control gauges, of course, but helps to understand what is coming next while the data gauges say that everything is all right; the gauges speak to the brain, the stethoscope speaks to the guts.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510&cpage=70#comment-1086915

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Jerry Jones April 8, 2016 at 6:24 AM
    Dr Rossi, questions on ECW:
    1) Is this legal case going to affect the production of E-Cat X or Quarks or whatever they are called?
    2) Is the production and appearance on market delayed? By how much?
    3) Does Rossi need new investors and money to get the production started?
    4) What obstacles other than remaining R&D are there now to get production and sales started?

    Andrea Rossi April 8, 2016 at 9:36 AM
    Jerry Jones:
    1- NO
    2- it will be accelerated, because they were a brake
    3- no
    4- none, apart, limited to the domestic E-Cats, the safety certification
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • Sanjeev

      Looks like all set up in Sweden and ready to go?

      • Mats002

        I better take a walk and buy one then ^^

      • LuFong

        “other than remaining R&D”

        • … and product safety certification – a HUGE hurdle given the nature of the heat source.

          • Sanjeev

            What about the one issued by SGS?
            Is it still valid?

          • For a predecessor prototype version (not sure which) but certainly not including use by members of the public. Product safety certifications are against a registered design, and aren’t transferable to another design, even a similar one. An in-house certification wouldn’t be acceptable to health and safety types for a novel power source (especially one the ‘N’ word in its title!).

          • Ged

            That was industrial only, though. Without it, the 1 year test couldn’t have happened.

          • SG

            I get the impression that safety certification for industrial use is in place, just not for domestic use.

          • Omega Z

            IH had license to manufacture and sell “ALL” E-cat iterations. It’s in the contract…

          • Neilcan

            Maybe he showed them how to use the E-Cat but is holding back info on the E-Cat X. If he has known for a while that he was being cheated, why did he continue developing the E-Cat X?

          • Omega Z

            Certification refers to the domestic e-cats.

          • Oystein Lande

            Interesting info on Florida litigation process:

            “The Defendant has to answer within a certain time (usually about three weeks). The Answer says what portions of the Complaint, if any, the defendant admits to, what the Defendant contests, what defenses the Defendant may have, and whether the Defendant has claims against the Plaintiff or any other party.”

            “If the Defendant doesn’t answer the Complaint, the court may enter a default judgment against the Defendant. If the Answer contains a counterclaim or a third-party complaint, the party against whom that claim is made also has to answer within a certain time.”

            “It’s hard to say how long all these steps will take in your case. The entire process can take from as little as six months, to as long as years. In the case of witnesses, you can be called to testify at any time from shortly after the event to the better part of a decade after it happened. Generally speaking, the less money at stake, and the more issues that can be resolved before trial, the smoother and faster the lawsuit will go.”

            Ref.
            http://boyerlawfirm.com/practice-areas/litigation/florida-civil-litigation/

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Jerry Jones April 8, 2016 at 6:24 AM
    Dr Rossi, questions on ECW:
    1) Is this legal case going to affect the production of E-Cat X or Quarks or whatever they are called?
    2) Is the production and appearance on market delayed? By how much?
    3) Does Rossi need new investors and money to get the production started?
    4) What obstacles other than remaining R&D are there now to get production and sales started?

    Andrea Rossi April 8, 2016 at 9:36 AM
    Jerry Jones:
    1- NO
    2- it will be accelerated, because they were a brake
    3- no
    4- none, apart, limited to the domestic E-Cats, the safety certification
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • Sanjeev

      Looks like all set up in Sweden and ready to go?

      • Mats002

        I better take a walk and buy one then ^^

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Andrea Rossi April 8, 2016 at 9:54 AM
    Teemu:
    I knew the Customer in the office of my Attorney Henry Johnson. They were enthusiast to test our 1 MW plant, to see if it really worked, because they were ( and are ) interested to buy more plants for their facilities in Europe. They wanted not to be exposed, though, therefore incorporated JM Products and made a plant for their production to make the test and appointed President their Attorney, who was also, as I said, my Attorney. IH knew all this and agreed, obviously, on this, making a rental agreement with JM Products to make the test in their factory. When IH met with the President of JM in Raleigh, I was present and I explained that he was also my Attorney. No problem has been raised by IH.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Ged

      A rental agreement where the customer was paying IH (not Rossi) $1000 a day. A pretty important point too.

      • Sanjeev

        If customer says that in the court, IH will have no answer to the question – why they agreed to receive the $1000/day amount for one year, when the tech was not even “substantiated”.
        Note that customer or AR has to *prove* that IH got the money.

        • Ged

          That’s very true. There is a lot of room for more insane twist abouts in this saga.

          • Sanjeev

            I’d watch the court case if its webcasted live on youtube. Very interesting stuff.

          • nietsnie

            “This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s.”

            The Big Lebowski

        • Omega Z

          Bank records will be proof.

    • Sanjeev

      Fortunately or unfortunately, the customer will be exposed, if court orders them to appear before it.

    • wpj

      “more plants for their facilities in Europe”…… Hmmm I’m going back to thinking it is JMC and that they changed the name from JM Chemical Products to JM Products to mask this fact.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Andrea Rossi April 8, 2016 at 9:54 AM
    Teemu:
    I knew the Customer in the office of my Attorney Henry Johnson. They were enthusiast to test our 1 MW plant, to see if it really worked, because they were ( and are ) interested to buy more plants for their facilities in Europe. They wanted not to be exposed, though, therefore incorporated JM Products and made a plant for their production to make the test and appointed President their Attorney, who was also, as I said, my Attorney. IH knew all this and agreed, obviously, on this, making a rental agreement with JM Products to make the test in their factory. When IH met with the President of JM in Raleigh, I was present and I explained that he was also my Attorney. No problem has been raised by IH.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Ged

      A rental agreement where the customer was paying IH (not Rossi) $1000 a day. A pretty important point too.

      • Sanjeev

        If customer says that in the court, IH will have no answer to the question – why they agreed to receive the $1000/day amount for one year, when the tech was not even “substantiated”.
        Note that customer or AR has to *prove* that IH got the money.

        • Ged

          That’s very true. There is a lot of room for more insane twist abouts in this saga.

          • Sanjeev

            I’d watch the court case if its webcasted live on youtube. Very interesting stuff.

          • nietsnie

            “This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s.”

            The Big Lebowski

        • Omega Z

          Bank records will be proof.

    • Philippe Goulet

      Perfect ! So if the technology works, Rossi has a customer who will invest more in more plants ! He has a potential customer, we shouldbe able to see shortly if this customer deems the technology is worth investing in.

    • Sanjeev

      Fortunately or unfortunately, the customer will be exposed, if court orders them to appear before it.

      • Philippe Goulet

        In what possible way could this turn out to be unfortunate ?

        • Sanjeev

          Unfortunate for the customer, they will be unmasked.

          I don’t really know why they wanted to remain hidden. May be for the fear of bad publicity if it all does not work and the ridicule that will follow because Rossi fooled them.

          • Philippe Goulet

            But many businesses make bad investement decision and they don’t get bad publicity so much, in fact if they where fooled in trying something stupid, they deserve the bad publicity. This way nobody wastes more resources trying the same foolish thing again and again, thats a good thing.

            If it would be working ( and it should be clear to them by now) they would surelly like the positive publicity, as a business that risked and had good foresight about the technology. It fct it could verry well mean a rush of new capital from investors to their business to finance the new plants they want to buy.

          • Omega Z

            Let not your competition know how you undercut their prices.

          • Brokeeper

            Unless they can get out of IH’s purchase agreement, it may be a long time before they see more Plants. However, since they are in Europe I would think they will be able to purchase them from the European seller and only have the one in the US under IH.

          • Omega Z

            I think the customer had the option to buy. Not set in stone, so they could just purchase 1 from Hydro Fusion. I think this may have been a Hydro Fusion client want to be anyway.

    • wpj

      “more plants for their facilities in Europe”…… Hmmm I’m going back to thinking it is JMC and that they changed the name from JM Chemical Products to JM Products to mask this fact.

    • E-gatto

      Doesn’t this story sound a bit fabricated?
      I mean, how could they set up a chemical plant that quickly, with all the permits, hiring staff, get the supply chain set up…
      Months ago Rossi was talking of a production plant, full operational with security guards etc, consuming day and night steam.

      Keep in mind, not everything which might be (theoretical) possible is also reasonable.
      Watch this video to the end: http://youtu.be/OFnfH_kxFyQ

      • artefact

        “..set up a chemical plant that quickly”: Just the company (name) as newly set up. What building and what company is behind that is not known for sure (some good speculation is ongoing)

  • A little video comment with reflections on the information published so far –
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHSFRU_TIMg

  • A little video comment with reflections on the information published so far –
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHSFRU_TIMg

  • artefact

    On JONP:
    “Andrea Rossi April 8, 2016 at 10:15 AM
    Alexvs:
    It [the report] has not yet made public, yet. My attorney will tell me when I will be allowed to publish it. There are forensic issues for which I cannot yet make it public.
    Surely it will be published.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Ged

      I wonder what he exactly means. A third party forensics firm verifying that the report was made by the ERV, I guess?

      • SG

        I think there are probably some concerns about the provenance of the ERV report, and they want to make sure that what is published is the real thing. My guess is that the ERV report was delivered by email to the interested parties. They might just want to verify the source of the email, the status of the document on the computer server, and what not. Just getting ducks in a row generally given that the report is going to be a lightning rod center piece in the litigation.

      • Sanjeev

        Yes, he can and probably he has. (Because he recently said that he doesn’t need any more funding to start the production).
        The only risk is, IH can drag him to court demanding damages as this will be a breach of the agreement. That’s just an annoyance from Rossi’s point of view, but it will delay his projects.
        This risk will remain till IH terminates the agreement formally, either inside or outside the court.

  • artefact

    On JONP:
    “Andrea Rossi April 8, 2016 at 10:15 AM
    Alexvs:
    It [the report] has not yet made public, yet. My attorney will tell me when I will be allowed to publish it. There are forensic issues for which I cannot yet make it public.
    Surely it will be published.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Ged

      I wonder what he exactly means. A third party forensics firm verifying that the report was made by the ERV, I guess?

      • SG

        I think there are probably some concerns about the provenance of the ERV report, and they want to make sure that what is published is the real thing. My guess is that the ERV report was delivered by email to the interested parties. They might just want to verify the source of the email, the status of the document on the computer server, and what not. Just getting ducks in a row generally given that the report is going to be a lightning rod center piece in the litigation.

      • Lawrence H Lafond

        the application of scientific knowledge to legal problems; especially : scientific analysis of physical evidence Merriam Webster dictionary

  • Sanjeev

    Unfortunate for the customer, they will be unmasked.

    I don’t really know why they wanted to remain hidden. May be for the fear of bad publicity if it all does not work and the ridicule that will follow because Rossi fooled them.

    • Brokeeper

      Unless they can get out of IH’s purchase agreement, it may be a long time before they see more Plants. Since they are in Europe I would think they will purchase them in European seller and only have the one in the US under IH.

      • Omega Z

        I think the customer had the option to buy. Not set in stone, so they could just purchase 1 from Hydro Fusion. I think this may have been a Hydro Fusion client want to be anyway.

  • LuFong

    I’m surprised the ERV report is not part of the court documents. Maybe IH will submit it.

    • Ged

      Someone will have to since it is the crux of the contract and payment dispute.

    • Omega Z

      Rossi is waiting on the green light from his lawyer.

  • Sanjeev

    If Rossi whants to go ahead and release (sell) it’s technology to anyone, he can find any willing buyer at any time.

    He can’t do that without getting into trouble with IH. The clause 13.2 forces him to offer the IP rights of other territories to IH first, and only if IH rejects the offer, he can go ahead and get another licensee. In other words IH controls who gets Rossi’s IP and where.

    Why did Rossi sign such an agreement is beyond me.

    • Rossi’s recent comments indicate that he no longer feels bound by the agreement with IH. Probably he never considered the X/quark tech bound by it anyway. The potential profits – if he can somehow get a product safety certified wherever he plans to market – would reduce any damages awarded by a court to insignificance. Possession is nine tenths of the law.

      • Sanjeev

        The agreement is void now, informally speaking. But the final ruling will decide what remains of the agreement.

        • He (AR) may become even more flameproof if he is planning to move his base to Europe (UK or Sweden).

      • Brokeeper

        I forsee a battle of sematics brewing.

    • Omega Z

      How can 13.2 apply to existing License.
      I believe that applies if a territory should open up for some reason or a territory should be split.

      • Sanjeev

        No it doesn’t apply to IH’s territory, which surely they alone control.
        Its for rest of the world.

        • Omega Z

          But the rest of the World is already licensed pre-Industrial heat.
          Oh well, Rossi can just sell the IP itself to Siemens. A 100 Billion$ behemoth. All bets and deals are off. We know who will win that fight.

          • Sanjeev

            I know of hydrofusion in Europe, who is still there. Rest is unconfirmed.

  • Philippe Goulet

    The way the situation seems to fall into place is, in my opinion, just the way a Scam situation would normaly resolve.
    1- Someone sells you the idea that a product will work, in exchange for some investement money.
    2- If the claims are not meet and you as an investor are not satisfied with the results, you stop the planned payements, terminating the agreement, and cutting your loses.
    3- If the claims are meet or the seller can explain why the product has not delivered according to the claims and you as the investor feel the investment is still wort doing, you just continue on with the investment strategy.

    Now, from my point of view, it seems that #2 is whats happened in this case. I realise nobody wanted to hear the dreeded fact that the technology is not worth developping/investing in, but at last I think we have an aswer to the alsmost decade long question of : Is their something to these Rossi claims?.

    Looking at the bright side of this, it didn’t cost us, folowers, any money to get an answer. (unless some of us had money invested IH or it’s financing funds.

    • Omega Z

      If #2 then why did Darden claim to have built and Operated successful e-cats 1st hand in front of Woodford investments and the Chinese. hmm Darden got explaining to do. Did he defraud Woodford and the Chinese among others???
      10 years? Rossi didn’t go public until January 2011.

      • WayneM

        Is it possible that two snake oil salesmen just charmed each other?

    • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

      Big flaw on your theory. Then why IH filled a patent where Rossi appears as co-author. That doesnt make sense. No one would fill a patent for something that doesnt work and add the supossed scammer to it.
      It feels more like they dont want to pay the money and just have the license but they want the IP instead as it worths much much more.

      • Philippe Goulet

        I was not aware of the patent thing but it doesn’t strike me as a problem with the scam scenario. I could be that IH was confident the technology was worth being patented before conclusive evidence could be gathered.

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          But they filled the patent just after the report was delivered so the explanation could be only one. It works. They had the customer bills, the report and they had an insider with rossi all the time (Wich is the one that appears as co author of the IP in the patent)
          There is no way that with all these knowlegde they fill a patent for something wich doesnt work.
          It may not work as good as Rossi says an that could be the discrepancy but that it works is almost 90% right.

  • Neilcan

    If IH only has the rights to the E-Cat and not the E-Cat X, why would they pay 89 Million for Tech that may already be obsolete?

    • SteveS

      IH purchased a license to all current and future E-Cat related technology and IP within specific geographic territories

    • Omega Z

      IH had license to manufacture and sell “ALL” E-cat iterations. It’s in the contract…

      • Neilcan

        Maybe he showed them how to use the E-Cat but is holding back info on the E-Cat X. If he has known for a while that he was being cheated, why did he continue developing the E-Cat X?

    • nietsnie

      Because that’s what they made the deal for. That’s what they agreed to.

  • Veblin

    I don’t know how Subscribe works because I have never had it selected. It just seems to be to risky because you could get hundreds or thousands of emails. I do have Replies selected but I don’t normally get emails. I do get emails for replies if I post or edit at the Disqus site. I found this because sometimes a new post I make will disappear and only show up again a few hours later. If I edit that post at Disqus it will usually show up right away.

    E-Cat World at Disqus
    https://disqus.com/home/forum/ecw/

    If you click on a title it will go to that thread at E-Cat World.
    If you click on the comments links it will open the comments at Disqus.
    Like for this thread.
    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/ecw/rossi_responds_to_ih_statement/

  • SteveS

    Cherokee essentially locked up Rossi in a shipping container for a year, while they filed patents containing Rossi IP and made separate deals with and provided Rossi IP to Rossi competitors. Cherokee bought $100M worth of IP for $10M. They will simply shut down the shell companies of IH and IPH and move ahead without Rossi using the IP he shared with them and their false patents. Maybe they will cut a deal with Rossi, but he will never see the bulk of the money owed. Why buy the cow for $100M when you can get the milk for $10M?

    • Preston

      100M is really peanuts compared to the potential. I worry legal issues might slow every thing down and keep it off the market.

      • guitarwebs

        Peanuts compared to the 67 trillion dollar value of the oil that i s in the ground, under existing active fields….in other words, inventory. Sooooo, money talks…etc…everyone has a price etc…sell the oil first, rather than never, soooooo do something to buy time starting now perhaps.

        Just saying,

  • Omega Z

    If #2 then why did Darden claim to have built and Operated successful e-cats 1st hand in front of Woodford investments and the Chinese. hmm Darden got explaining to do. Did he defraud Woodford and the Chinese among others???
    10 years? Rossi didn’t go public until January 2011.

  • Omega Z

    Let not your competition know how you undercut their prices.

  • artefact

    “..set up a chemical plant that quickly”: Just the company (name) as newly set up. What building and what company is behind that is not known for sure.

  • Job001

    Seriously crunching the numbers includes externalities; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
    Health, mass extinction #6, AGW climate destruction of investments, systemic economic instability, and so forth.
    I fear you’ve ignored these costs, as if we should just continue to do so in-spite of abundant evidence to the contrary.

    Additionally, don’t ignore the learning curves, investments start and end in a typically distant future when competitive sources of energy are even cheaper, proper investment analysis shows where the learning curve costs will be at the beginning and the end of the investment. For instance, solar installed costs per KwHr have declined over 100 times due to the learning curve since 1970 and this is projected to continue for another 20 years. For instance, the cheapest wind contracts may run under $0.025/KwHr now, so energy is cheap frankly.

    Last, don’t ignore that the individual investors who have different capital costs, write-offs, alternate capital use, tax structures, incentives and so forth. Our typical large scale analysis tends to ignore the investor specifics, for instance, I don’t want a gigawatt coal plant, I need about 5Kw for my home and presently use the good old utility company. However, I just may find the right solar investment profitable as I see many self sufficient home owners are finding.

  • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

    Big flaw on your theory. Then why IH filled a patent where Rossi appears as co-author. That doesnt make sense. No one would fill a patent for something that doesnt work and add the supossed scammer to it.
    It feels more like they dont want to pay the money and just have the license but they want the IP instead as it worths much much more.

    • Philippe Goulet

      I was not aware of the patent thing but it doesn’t strike me as a problem with the scam scenario. I could be that IH was confident the technology was worth being patented before conclusive evidence could be gathered.

      • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

        But they filled the patent just after the report was delivered so the explanation could be only one. It works. They had the customer bills, the report and they had an insider with rossi all the time (Wich is the one that appears as co author of the IP in the patent)
        There is no way that with all these knowlegde they fill a patent for something wich doesnt work.
        It may not work as good as Rossi says an that could be the discrepancy but that it works is almost 90% right.

  • Mike Henderson

    Search.sunbiz.org will give you the principal business address for both JM Products and JM Chemical Products … same address. You can see it on Google Maps and Bing aerial. They may have leased an empty light industrial / warehouse space for a year just for the test. No prying eyes. No downstream process to upset. Low risk if something goes wrong. But not what I picture for a nuclear power plant test.

    • Omega Z

      Actually,
      JM Products and JM Chemical Products pull the same JM Products Document Number P14000056117.
      The document doesn’t even have JM Chemical Products listed on it, but JM Products.

      • Mike Henderson

        There’s an amendment in Oct 2015 adding “Chemical” to the name.

    • TVulgaris

      Google how big a conventional diesel or NG 1 MW “boiler” is (or 4 X250 KW, more appropriately). A bit bigger than a container, but not much.

  • RC

    This is all very disheartening to me. We’ve waited all this time for the latest report and by all accounts it was anticipated to be positive. Now we’re stuck in an atmosphere of accusations and recriminations that once again raise the possibility of the whole thing being a scam. It’s the complete opposite of what I was anticipating. Even if a glowingly positive report is released it will be under a cloud of suspicion. I have to admit that my confidence in the reality of e-Cat technology is shaken. While IH may have indeed stabbed Rossi in the back in hopes of stealing his technology, I have to at least entertain the possibility that it does not work as advertised.

    • e-dog

      Well put.

    • Axil Axil

      The ONLY thing that matters is a LENR product on the market.

  • RC

    This is all very disheartening to me. We’ve waited all this time for the latest report and by all accounts it was anticipated to be positive. Now we’re stuck in an atmosphere of accusations and recriminations that once again raise the possibility of the whole thing being a scam. It’s the complete opposite of what I was anticipating. Even if a glowingly positive report is released it will be under a cloud of suspicion. I have to admit that my confidence in the reality of e-Cat technology is shaken. While IH may have indeed stabbed Rossi in the back in hopes of stealing his technology, I have to at least entertain the possibility that it does not work as advertised.

    • e-dog

      Well put.

    • Axil Axil

      The ONLY thing that matters is a LENR product on the market.

  • nietsnie

    Because that’s what they made the deal for. That’s what they agreed to.

  • A bunch of sleazebucket capitalists, all around. I enjoy seeing them fight like this. I think that the information that is coming out will probably help open-source advocates, and the cold fusion community, as well. So, that’s a win, in my book. Time for a celebration!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2FesrskB_g

  • Preston

    100M is really peanuts compared to the potential. I worry legal issues might slow every thing down and keep it off the market.

  • Axil Axil

    Andrea Rossi

    April 6, 2016 at 4:07 PM

    Domenico Canino:

    This time the story goes that “Meucci” has the patent, the industry, the product and whomever will try to compete against us will discover what is there under the tip of the iceberg.

    Warm Regards

    A.R.

    Rossi has discovered many things in his years of constant trial and error. He might have only given IH a bare minimum to get that 11.5 million. He might have held back the Cat/Mouse COP amplifier method. IH might just have been able to produce a COP that a mouse can generate(< 2).

    When IH saw a COP of 50, IH knew Rossi was not giving IH all his ways and means. Brilliouin is not a system that can use Mouse/Cat amplification. So the Rossi IP transfer to Brilliouin had a big problem: Oops! These two systems were incompatible. The stealing of Rossi IP was plane for Rossi to see but the hold back of that IP by Rossi was not apparent till after the Third party test.

    • SG

      Interesting conjecture… but, IH guys attended and measured the plant for the duration of the 350 days test. Could they not have opened up a discussion with Mr. Rossi as to why the plant was experiencing such high COP? And didn’t IH *build* the plant themselves?

      • Ged

        They built Lugano, top to bottom including fuel, but they didn’t make the fuel for the 1 MW plant, I believe. They did work on the other engineering aspects. And since the head IH tech guy was working directly under Rossi, he had to have asked him quite a bit of details, if only just to carry out his job…

        • Axil Axil

          How Rossi got the COP 50 mods past IH without losing his IP is a testament to how smart that Rossi is. He is a man playing with boys.

        • LuFong

          I thought Frank asked Rossi about this and he claimed they made the fuel as well. Interesting though I cannot find the question nor the answer on the rossicatlive website (including the entire blog). Rossi may have deleted it. It may be referenced somewhere in these pages but I haven’t been able to find it. Pretty sure Rossi said that IH made the fuel, although Rossi did say he changed something to make it last 1 year.

          • Ged

            Hmm. Maybe. I recall that only in reference to the Lugano, which Rossi was talking about in his rebuttle yesterday. It’s that IH tech that was saying Rossi makes the charges for the 1 MW plant. But then, there was also the backup plant, which maybe IH made charges for? Gah, too many different systems people could be referencing. Hopefully Frank recalls.

          • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

            Yes. Rossi told that they produced the fuel for the 1MW plant a few days ago.

      • Axil Axil

        All this was cooking in the pot for this past year. It was the refusal to pay the 90 million that gave Rossi the out from the contract with IH.

      • Jonnyb

        Probably why Andrea spent as much time in the Shipping Container as possible, so nobody could open it up and find out what was happening.

    • Gerard McEk

      I believe that AR has said more often that E-catX technology is part of the deal with IH. It will be difficult for him to deny, its on his blog. Question is indeed what was exactly written in the license agreement.

      • Axil Axil

        From the earlier posted copy of the agreement between Rossi and IH (http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf), there is a list of patents included in the licensed IP:

        1 – ltalian patent granted for process and apparatus

        2- USA patent pendlng for process and apparatus

        3- Europe patent pending for process and apparatus

        4 – USA patent pending for particulars and theory

        5- USA patent pending for control systems

        6- USA patent pending for additives and catalyzers in process and apparatus

        7 – USA patent pending for HotCat

        8- USA patent pending for direct conversion of photons into electric energy

        10 – USA patent pending for partlculars of the reactor

        The quark is not in the List,

        • oldrolledgold

          Rossi’s lawyers are ‘no win,no fee’? From what I read so what do they see that means they will get money in the medium term? They need to make payroll too.

        • SG

          That is not an exclusive list as the license also covers improvements. The e-cat X was yet to be developed at the time of the license. But it would still have been covered by the license according to the express language of the agreement, and as confirmed by Mr. Rossi on his blog. Of course, at this point, all obligations by both parties are a bit up in the air.

        • Brent Buckner

          Per SG below, see section 13.4 of the License Agreement.

        • Warthog

          And your evidence for this is??????

          • Jarea
          • Warthog

            There is not one word even implying that Godes/Brillouin are “working with Rossi IP”. All this says is that “Brillouin and Lenuco continue to work….”, which is perfectly true….both companies have their own IP approaches and are working to bring them to fruition.

          • wpj

            If you look at their website they claim to be using the same apparatus as before but at high temperature.

          • Warthog

            Not exactly. They have TWO systems, one “wet”, and one “dry”. The “wet” system is essentially a Pons and Fleischmann electrolysis unit engineered to operate at higher pressures (and thus higher temperatures) than the original P&F units. The “dry” system contains no water (or D2O), but uses gaseous hydrogen (or deuterium) on a nanostructured solid “carrier”. The “dry” system operates at 500-700 Celsius (which is less than Rossi uses).

            All that said, “if” IH has licensed their “Q-pulse” technology, and chosen to pair that with Rossi’s solid-phase fuel which they have also licensed, and gotten better controllability than Rossi, it is absolutely legitimate for them to do so. IH will still have to pay Rossi a licensing fee, and royalties, but these will be much less than if they used an “all-Rossi” design.

          • wpj

            Yes, I should have said non-electrolytic and dry; it’s really difficult to say much more from their description.

          • Warthog

            Frankly, I think Rossi will be left out in the cold…not because he doesn’t have something that works, but that what he has is very primitive, and will be quickly supplanted by superior technology. To take a SWAG at it, I would venture that a combination of Brillouin’s “Q-pulse” and Lenuco’s nanostructured zirconium oxide/metal “NAE” particles is a likely candidate. I am sure that there will be many (and mean) patent wars before all is done.

    • Steve Savage

      Axil. I think you hit the nail on the head. Rossi has seen actions from Darden that indicate potential evidence of malfeasance and he now does not trust Darden, he has worked with enough untrustworthy partners throughout his career, and does not need another. I also think, that, with the advent of the e-cat x, he now believes he gave away too much to get that initial investment, and wants out of the original agreement. Maybe IH will end up with serious regrets for their decision not to pay.
      However, If indeed IH does not have all the secrets and Rossi was holding back. I wonder if this would constitute breach of contract on Rossi’s part? Is Rossi overplaying his hand?

  • Axil Axil

    Andrea Rossi

    April 6, 2016 at 4:07 PM

    Domenico Canino:

    This time the story goes that “Meucci” has the patent, the industry, the product and whomever will try to compete against us will discover what is there under the tip of the iceberg.

    Warm Regards

    A.R.

    Rossi has discovered many things in his years of constant trial and error. He might have only given IH a bare minimum to get that 11.5 million. He might have held back the Cat/Mouse COP amplifier method. IH might just have been able to produce a COP that a mouse can generate(< 2). For many years. Rossi's reactors worked poorly and would melt down when he tried to push that COP over 6. But then Rossi discovered the Cat/Mouse configuration.

    The Lugano test was a demonstration of IH LENR technology that was in place just a few months ago. Rossi supported the test but had nothing to do with it or had any stake in that test succeeding. The state of IH LENR tech as shown by Lugano was poor even if Rossi told IH how to produce the fuel. The Lugano test was used for IH's patent application.

    When IH saw a COP of 50, IH knew Rossi was not giving IH all his ways and means. Brilliouin is not a system that can use Mouse/Cat amplification. So the Rossi IP transfer to Brilliouin had a big problem: Oops! These two systems were incompatible. The stealing of Rossi IP was plane for Rossi to see but the hold back of that IP by Rossi was not apparent till after the Third party test. IH though, we want a COP of 50 too. No 90,000,000 until we get the entire tech package.

    • RC

      I sure hope you’re right.

    • SG

      Interesting conjecture… but, IH guys attended and measured the plant for the duration of the 350 days test. Could they not have opened up a discussion with Mr. Rossi as to why the plant was experiencing such high COP? And didn’t IH *build* the plant themselves?

      • Ged

        They built Lugano, top to bottom including fuel, but they didn’t make the fuel for the 1 MW plant, I believe. They did work on the other engineering aspects. And since the head IH tech guy was working directly under Rossi, he had to have asked him quite a bit of details, if only just to carry out his job…

        • Axil Axil

          How Rossi got the COP 50 mods past IH without losing his IP is a testament to how smart that Rossi is. He is a man playing with boys.

      • Axil Axil

        All this was cooking in the pot for this past year. It was the refusal to pay the 90 million that gave Rossi the out from the contract with IH.

      • Jonnyb

        Probably why Andrea spent as much time in the Shipping Container as possible, so nobody could open it up and find out what was happening.

    • Gerard McEk

      I believe that AR has said more often that E-catX technology is part of the deal with IH. It will be difficult for him to deny, its on his blog. Question is indeed what was exactly written in the license agreement.

      • Axil Axil

        From the earlier posted copy of the agreement between Rossi and IH (http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf), there is a list of patents included in the licensed IP:

        1 – ltalian patent granted for process and apparatus

        2- USA patent pendlng for process and apparatus

        3- Europe patent pending for process and apparatus

        4 – USA patent pending for particulars and theory

        5- USA patent pending for control systems

        6- USA patent pending for additives and catalyzers in process and apparatus

        7 – USA patent pending for HotCat

        8- USA patent pending for direct conversion of photons into electric energy

        10 – USA patent pending for partlculars of the reactor

        The quark is not in the List,

        • oldrolledgold

          Rossi’s lawyers are ‘no win,no fee’? From what I read so what do they see that means they will get money in the medium term? They need to make payroll too.

        • SG

          That is not an exclusive list as the license also covers improvements. The e-cat X was yet to be developed at the time of the license. But it would still have been covered by the license according to the express language of the agreement, and as confirmed by Mr. Rossi on his blog. Of course, at this point, all obligations by both parties are a bit up in the air.

        • Brent Buckner

          Per SG below, see section 13.4 of the License Agreement.

    • Steve Savage

      Axil. I think you hit the nail on the head. Rossi has seen actions from Darden that indicate potential evidence of malfeasance and he now does not trust Darden, he has worked with enough untrustworthy partners throughout his career, and does not need another. I also think, that, with the advent of the e-cat x, he now believes he gave away too much to get that initial investment, and wants out of the original agreement. Maybe IH will end up with serious regrets for their decision not to pay.
      However, If indeed IH does not have all the secrets and Rossi was holding back. I wonder if this would constitute breach of contract on Rossi’s part? Is Rossi overplaying his hand?

  • Rod

    Instead of having either Rossi or Darden win this suit, how about they settle out of court without waiting the possible years it might take to drag this mess through a trial.

    We get the E-Cat sooner and everybody saves face to some extent. Here’s what I propose:

    • IH/Darden pays Rossi the $89 million owed to him.
    • IH/Darden withdraw all patent applications based on Rossi’s IP.
    • IH/Darden instructs Brillouin and any others not to use Rossi’s IP in their technology.
    • All parties agree to release the ERV in its entirety
    • Rossi allows IH to be one of its E-Cat licensees in the territories originally planned. This includes the E-Cat QuarkX. Maybe allow IH to have a head start on the license before allowing other licensees.
    • IH/Darden releases statement affirming that LENR and Rossi’s E-Cat is real and that these things will change the world.
    • IH/Darden agrees to fund certain $$$ to E-Cat R&D.
    • IH/Darden agrees to give away E-Cats to the less fortunate.
    • All parties agree to pay me a certain percentage of all E-Cat sales for coming up with this brilliant solution!

    Everybody wins here!

    • NCY

      Yeah but by pushing Rossi to the side, IH can win a lot more.

      • Brokeeper

        It may not be possible without the secret fuel formula, which Rossi would not be obligated to give to the ERV engineer for IH if the engineer did not receive the $10,000,000 escrow from IH before the five days after validation per schedule 3.2(b) delivery agreements. Then Rossi wins big time by acquiring back the IP and the only reproducible combo.

        • NCY

          except it might not be the only reproducible combo… there are probably lots of ways of producing commercial LENR, and probably by learning what they have from Rossi they have figured out similar-but-different methods where they can argue that ross’s patent no longer applies.

        • Brent Buckner

          Rossi/LC represent that they did receive the $10,000,000.
          See paragraph 58 of the Complaint ( http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf )

          • Brokeeper

            Brent, you are correct. The $10,000,000 was on condition of the first 24 hour validation after E-Cat unit. Not the 1MW plant validation. My mistake, no intention to mislead. However the same applied for the $89,000,000 transfer requirement after the positive ERV validation. Thanks for pointing this out.

          • Brent Buckner

            You’re welcome. The reason that I think it may be material to bear this in mind is that I think IH may make a claim that Rossi/LC was itself in breach by not having delivered all the E-Cat IP after that $10,000,000 payment. We’ll see.

          • Brokeeper

            I saw that as I was correcting my mistake. Hmmmm, very interesting. But if the unit was validated after the first 24 hour test, then why not contest its performance then?

          • Brent Buckner

            I gather that IH was satisfied enough by the Validation (the 24 hour test) to put up the $10million. After that payment, Rossi/LC was to deliver all the E-Cat IP (the definition of which included all trade secrets at the time and would include all subsequently generated). I think IH may make a claim that Rossi/LC was not fully forthcoming. (And IIRC Rossi is on record suggesting that he was not fully forthcoming in his dealings with Defkalion EDIT: c.f. http://ecatnews.com/?p=1428 ).

          • Brokeeper

            Stay tuned to the ongoing saga of “As Your Stomach Churns”.

          • Sanjeev

            I guess (a big guess), that non-transference of IP cannot be taken as a basis of holding the final payment, which was totally dependent on the 1 year test, and nothing else but that.
            IH can demand a compensation for non-transference of IP or can force Rossi (by court order) to transfer it, but they cannot hold the payment if ERV has signed it as positive.

          • Brent Buckner

            If IH tries to make the case that Rossi/LC was in breach prior to the end of March 2016 they may try to make the case that the breach rendered the License Agreement void and that they are due some relief.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, they can.
            As I said, they must provide solid evidence in court that Rossi developed new/superior E-Cat based tech behind their backs and before March’16. They will either need to show it physically or must provide some documents where Rossi legally declared that. I guess that’s a difficult task unless Rossi left a trail.

          • Brokeeper

            Didn’t Rossi himself say on the JoNP that the E-CatX had a higher performance than previous versions?

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I replied above.

          • Brent Buckner

            You wrote: “They will either need to show it physically or must provide some documents where Rossi legally declared that.”

            I think they might point to blog statements by Rossi (and Fabiani). I suspect it will be hard for Rossi to disavow statements he has written on JoNP. Perhaps that would shift the balance of evidence and Rossi would then have to provide evidence beyond his own testimony that he had been lying on JoNP or concede the point.

          • Sanjeev

            That’s the trails I mentioned. Plus he might have exchanged some emails with Darden/JTV about these developments.
            Rossi can still deny it as failed experiments. He may say that he thought they are working but tests failed and it all is still under R&D.
            Anyway its too far into speculation, so I will not go further with imaginary arguments.

          • Brokeeper

            It appears whomever can prove the other party invalidated the agreement first could win the contest. Rossi may have that
            upper hand if he can prove IH infringed the E-Cat IP by giving it to his competitor(s).

          • Brent Buckner

            Section 16.4 of the License Agreement requires Rossi/LC to maintain confidentiality of E-Cat IP trade secrets. I see no corresponding obligation in the License Agreement for IH to maintain confidentiality of those trade secrets (and further I see in Section 1 that IH is free to sublicense its rights at will). Rossi/LC’s Complaint does not claim (that I see) that IH divulging trade secrets violated any section of the License Agreement. Rather, in paragraph 101 the Complaint claims that in becoming an exclusive licensee that IH assumed a fiduciary duty. We’ll see what IH claims.

          • Brokeeper

            That is a good point, depending on the strength of ‘fiduciary duty’.
            “Fiduciaries may not profit from their relationship with their principals unless they have the principals’ express informed consent.” Rossi may not have given consent to this act if it happened. Again this may be a long battle of semantics

          • Brent Buckner

            I expect that IH will challenge the notion that it assumed a fiduciary duty.

          • I like your guess.

          • TVulgaris

            Several people have implied that transfer of use (license) of IP implies IH has some kind of ownership control, and that all derivative work is included- I’m not any contract lawyer, but I wouldn’t sign any such agreement, and the wording of the contract is the ONLY legal constraint; has anyone actually parsed the contract? Ownership is not included even in exclusive license agreements unless explicitly stated, and at no time has Rossi stated he SOLD the IP, only licensed it. IIRC, the original announcements in 2013 by both parties also did not say that.

          • Brent Buckner

            I didn’t refer to a transfer of ownership, I referred to delivery (see Section 3.2(b) of the License Agreement). You’re welcome to do your own parsing: http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/06/complaint-of-andrea-rossi-and-leonardo-corp-court-document-cop-substantially-greater-than-fifty-50-during-test/

          • SG

            Correct: Mr. Rossi/Leonardo only licensed their IP, and did not assign (i.e., transfer or sell) any of it. What is confusing some people, I think, is that the term “transfer” is usually reserved to mean selling or assigning the IP. But it is also being used on these blogs to mean providing the know-how to IH.

          • Sanjeev

            They wouldn’t wait for more than a year to announce the breach.
            If $89M hangs on it, I’d immediately send a legal notice to deliver the IP and stop further activities mentioned in the agreement, including the extended customer test.
            However, I don’t see any papers (yet) filed by Rossi that show receipt of IP docs signed by IH or their representative. Normally, when important documents are handed over, a covering letter is made where both parties sign, the one making over and the one receiver. This is a normal legal way to ensure that the party doesn’t deny it in future. If Rossi or his lawyers didn’t take such acknowledgement then they made a mistake, OR nothing was transferred officially.

          • Brent Buckner

            The definition of “E-Cat IP” goes far beyond documents.

            If IH has been unable to build (off-site without any input from Rossi whatsoever) a 1MW plant that they measure as having similar performance characteristics as the ERV report shows then perhaps they will claim that Rossi/LC did not deliver the full E-Cat IP (e.g. Rossi’s babysitting of the 1MW test plant involved using E-Cat IP – trade secret knowledge – that he did not deliver to IH).

            If Rossi/LC did not deliver to IH all of the knowledge required to make an E-Cat X Quark (or whatever the current term is) before the end of March 2016, then perhaps IH will try to make the case that Rossi/LC was in breach before the end March 2016.

          • Sanjeev

            Your last line is a good possibility.
            It looks like Rossi foresaw the possibility of non-payment, or he sensed that his IP is going to his competitors etc etc and didn’t provide the newly developed IP. Its a breach. Probably the new IP is worth more than $89M, and so he took a calculated decision. All speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
            Anyway, if Rossi proves in court that there is no such thing as EcatX or Quark or whatyouhave, then he doesn’t need to transfer its IP anymore. Then the burden of proof will be on IH, to prove that he indeed has new versions (that work flawlessly).
            I think IH knows this already, its just common sense and if they don’t they need better lawyers.

          • SG

            What perverse incentives this melee can conjure! I highly doubt, of course, that Mr. Rossi would attempt to prove that e-Cat X or Quark don’t exist or don’t work, as his credibility as a witness could then be attacked. More likely, he will attempt to show that IH breached first, and that he was withholding additional secret sauce (if that even occurred) because he had no further obligations in the contract after IH’s breach.

          • Sanjeev

            So what would be that first breach by IH?

          • SG

            The violation of IH’s fiduciary duty to maintain confidences as an exclusive licensee of Leonardo’s IP. But just speculating and don’t know if it will hold water. The problem is that we don’t have a complete picture of what happened. For example, if Mr. Rossi can show that he shared the substance of all of his pending provisional and regular patent applications with IH, then it would be tough for IH to claim that information was withheld. Then, Leonardo could point to the “clear” breach of non-payment of the $89 million. It is definitely going to come down to a battle of who breached first.

          • Brent Buckner

            As you’ve seen, per Rossi “And they do this now, with the litigation in full course, wherein they say that they say that they do not pay because I did not teach to them to make the plant….” (from http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/10/statement-from-andrea-rossi-on-ih-patent-application/ )

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I’ve seen that.
            Comes from Rossi, so we need to wait for IH to say it. It would be a breach from the side of Rossi, if proven.

      • Rod

        IH cannot push Rossi aside until they win a trial that Rossi has indicated he will fight with all his might. Many already feel Rossi was wronged and has the upper hand after catching IH/Darden with their proverbial hand in the cookie jar.

        The trial can take up to several years. There will be millions in legals fees. Reputations will be ruined. And it is not guaranteed IH/Darden will be victorious. Although Rossi says this litigation will not disrupt E-Cat QuarkX development, IH/Darden will do everything legally possible to ensure E-Cat QuarkX development is indeed disrupted or halted.

        Since IH/Darden have breached the License agreement, it is speculated that Rossi can already void the agreement completely. I don’t think IH/Darden were prepared to be hit with the lawsuit five days after the ERV report was delivered. By settling out-of-court now, Darden can keep his reputation intact and continue to participate in the billions of dollars in anticipated E-Cat sales. That is, if Rossi agrees to keep IH/Darden as a licensee. Since Rossi has lost trust in IH/Darden, Rossi should now have multiple licensees in the territories originally granted to IH/Darden.

        IMHO, the best outcome for all parties involved, including us believers and the rest of the world, is an immediate out-of-court settlement that allows E-Cat development to proceed uninterrupted.

    • They would never go for it. It makes too much sense I’m afraid.

  • Otto1923

    I’ve got a sick feeling about this…
    Court-ordered cease and desist, records are all sealed, and the whole technology slowly evaporates over a few years.

    Shit.

    • kdk

      I don’t think that it’s likely to succeed with all of us who have been following this for years. Which, of course, doesn’t mean that somebody won’t try something like that. They have to know that fossil fuels aren’t viable, this might just be about who gets to control the next major energy source.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      This is why Rossi should speak out now, release the test now before IH can get the courts to say it is illegal.

    • timycelyn

      It’s a vortex, presenting lots of different facets, changing all the time.

      One facet is that it looks as though IH have shared a little – or a lot – with the Chinese. Who are heavily investing ($200m seems to be the popular number).

      Irrespective of all these, and future, shenanigans, the Chinese will press forward with this as HARD as they can. It only takes glancing out of the window in most days in Shanghai to understand why…. At present, peak atmospheric particle counts are way, way above WHO limits, and Y-O-Y getting exponentially worse.

      If they bring LENR to market – in whatever form – it cannot be buried in the west for long. Politicians and interest groups can erect barriers, but they are of limited strength.

      If you have the Chinese (and then the Indians) living in ‘LENR world’ the rest of the world will follow.

      Late and disadvantaged, but they will have to follow.

      Or go bust.

    • Eyedoc

      Hah! AR cease,desist,sealed? no way in he–… AR knows there are hundreds of followers who would shelter him and nurture his technology if needed

  • HS61AF91

    Publicity, publicity and some more publicity. That’s what the e-Cat is getting. The test was successful, this demand for payment is valid. Whether Dr. Rossi wins or somehow underhandedly not, the world wins with e-Cat production by non-stop robotic conveyor belt.

  • Shiv Singh

    This is IH Darden to buy out Rossi after drying him out of funds.

    • Roland

      This is Rossi divesting himself of IH by forcing the issue of payment to break a contract with an unreliable partner; as noted in other posts the first E-cat factories, under Leonardo, are destined for Scandinavian Europe and England, undoubtedly with funding that has nothing to do with IH.

    • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

      Yeah but by pushing Rossi to the side, IH can win a lot more.

      • Brokeeper

        It may not be possible without the secret fuel formula, which Rossi was not obligated to give to the ERV engineer because the engineer did not receive the $10,000,000 escrow from IH before the five days after validation.

        • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

          except it might not be the only reproducible combo… there are probably lots of ways of producing commercial LENR, and probably by learning what they have from Rossi they have figured out similar-but-different methods where they can argue that ross’s patent no longer applies.

        • Brent Buckner

          Rossi/LC represent that they did receive the $10,000,000.
          See paragraph 58 of the Complaint ( http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf )

          • Brokeeper

            Brent, you are correct. The $10,000,000 was on condition of the first 24 hour validation after plant delivery. Not the 1MW plant validation. My mistake, no intention to mislead. However the same applied for the $89,000,000 transfer requirement after the positive ERV validation. Thanks for pointing this out.

          • Brent Buckner

            You’re welcome. The reason that I think it may be material to bear this in mind is that I think IH may make a claim that Rossi/LC was itself in breach by not having delivered all the E-Cat IP after that $10,000,000 payment. We’ll see.

          • Brokeeper

            I saw that as I was correcting my mistake. Hmmmm, very interesting. But if the unit was validated after the first 24 hour test, then why not contest its performance then?

          • Brent Buckner

            I gather that IH was satisfied enough by the Validation (the 24 hour test) to put up the $10million. After that payment, Rossi/LC was to deliver all the E-Cat IP (the definition of which included all trade secrets at the time and would include all subsequently generated). I think IH may make a claim that Rossi/LC was not fully forthcoming. (And IIRC Rossi is on record suggesting that he was not fully forthcoming in his dealings with Defkalion).

          • Brokeeper

            Stay tuned to the on going saga of “As Your Stomach Churns”.

          • Sanjeev

            I guess (a big guess), that non-transference of IP cannot be taken as a basis of holding the final payment, which was totally dependent on the 1 year test, and nothing else but that.
            IH can demand a compensation for non-transference of IP or can force Rossi (by court order) to transfer it, but they cannot hold the payment if ERV has signed it as positive.

          • Brent Buckner

            If IH tries to make the case that Rossi/LC was in breach prior to the end of March 2016 they may try to make the case that the breach rendered the License Agreement void and that they are due some relief.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, they can.
            As I said, they must provide solid evidence in court that Rossi developed new/superior E-Cat based tech behind their backs and before March’16. They will either need to show it physically or must provide some documents where Rossi legally declared that. I guess that’s a difficult task unless Rossi left a trail.

          • Brokeeper

            Didn’t Rossi himself say on the JoNP that the E-CatX had a higher performance than previous versions?

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I replied above.

          • Brent Buckner

            You wrote: “They will either need to show it physically or must provide some documents where Rossi legally declared that.”

            I think they might point to blog statements by Rossi (and Fabiani). I suspect it will be hard for Rossi to disavow statements he has written on JoNP. Perhaps that would shift the balance of evidence and Rossi would then have to provide evidence beyond his own testimony that he had been lying on JoNP or concede the point.

          • Sanjeev

            That’s the trails I mentioned. Plus he might have exchanged some emails with Darden/JTV about these developments.
            Rossi can still deny it as failed experiments. He may say that he thought they are working but tests failed and it all is still under R&D.
            Anyway its too far into speculation, so I will not go further with imaginary arguments.

          • Brokeeper

            It appears whoever can prove the other party invalidated the agreement first could win the contest. Rossi may have that
            upper hand if he can prove IH infringed the E-Cat IP by giving it to his competitor(s).

          • Brent Buckner

            Section 16.4 of the License Agreement requires Rossi/LC to maintain confidentiality of E-Cat IP trade secrets. I see no corresponding obligation in the License Agreement for IH to maintain confidentiality of those trade secrets (and further I see in Section 1 that IH is free to sublicense its rights at will). Rossi/LC’s Complaint does not claim (that I see) that IH divulging trade secrets violated any section of the License Agreement. Rather, in paragraph 101 the Complaint claims that in becoming an exclusive licensee that IH assumed a fiduciary duty. We’ll see what IH claims.

          • Brokeeper

            That is a good point, depending on the strength of ‘fiduciary duty’.

          • Brent Buckner

            I expect that IH will challenge the notion that it assumed a fiduciary duty.

          • TVulgaris

            Several people have implied that transfer of use (license) of IP implies IH has some kind of ownership control, and that all derivative work is included- I’m not any contract lawyer, but I wouldn’t sign any such agreement, and the wording of the contract is the ONLY legal constraint; has anyone actually parsed the contract? Ownership is not included even in exclusive license agreements unless explicitly stated, and at no time has Rossi stated he SOLD the IP, only licensed it. IIRC, the original announcements in 2013 by both parties also did not say that.

          • Brent Buckner

            I didn’t refer to a transfer of ownership, I referred to delivery (see Section 3.2(b) of the License Agreement). You’re welcome to do your own parsing: http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/06/complaint-of-andrea-rossi-and-leonardo-corp-court-document-cop-substantially-greater-than-fifty-50-during-test/

          • SG

            Correct: Mr. Rossi/Leonardo only licensed their IP, and did not assign (i.e., transfer or sell) any of it.

          • Sanjeev

            They wouldn’t wait for more than a year to announce the breach.
            If $89M hangs on it, I’d immediately send a legal notice to deliver the IP and stop further activities mentioned in the agreement, including the extended customer test.
            However, I don’t see any papers (yet) filed by Rossi that show receipt of IP docs signed by IH or their representative. Normally, when important documents are handed over, a covering letter is made where both parties sign, the one making over and the one receiver. This is a normal legal way to ensure that the party doesn’t deny it in future. If Rossi or his lawyers didn’t take such acknowledgement then they made a mistake, OR nothing was transferred officially.

          • Brent Buckner

            The definition of “E-Cat IP” goes far beyond documents.

            If IH has been unable to build (off-site without any input from Rossi whatsoever) a 1MW plant that they measure as having similar performance characteristics as the ERV report shows then perhaps they will claim that Rossi/LC did not deliver the full E-Cat IP (e.g. Rossi’s babysitting of the 1MW test plant involved using E-Cat IP – trade secret knowledge – that he did not deliver to IH).

            If Rossi/LC did not deliver to IH all of the knowledge required to make an E-Cat X Quark (or whatever the current term is) before the end of March 2016, then perhaps IH will try to make the case that Rossi/LC was in breach before the end March 2016.

          • Sanjeev

            Your last line is a good possibility.
            It looks like Rossi foresaw the possibility of non-payment, or he sensed that his IP is going to his competitors etc etc and didn’t provide the newly developed IP. Its a breach. Probably the new IP is worth more than $89M, and so he took a calculated decision. All speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
            Anyway, if Rossi proves in court that there is no such thing as EcatX or Quark or whatyouhave, then he doesn’t need to transfer its IP anymore. Then the burden of proof will be on IH, to prove that he indeed has new versions (that work flawlessly).
            I think IH knows this already, its just common sense and if they don’t they need better lawyers.

          • SG

            What perverse incentives this melee can conjure! I highly doubt, of course, that Mr. Rossi would attempt to prove that e-Cat X or Quark don’t exist or don’t work, as his credibility as a witness could then be attacked. More likely, he will attempt to show that IH breached first, and that he was withholding additional secret sauce (if that even occurred) because he had no further obligations in the contract after IH’s breach.

          • Sanjeev

            So what would be that first breach by IH?

          • SG

            The violation of IH’s fiduciary duty to maintain confidences as an exclusive licensee of Leonardo’s IP. But just speculating and don’t know if it will hold water. The problem is that we don’t have a complete picture of what happened. For example, if Mr. Rossi can show that he shared the substance of all of his pending provisional and regular patent applications with IH, then it would be tough for IH to claim that information was withheld. Then, Leonardo could point to the “clear” breach of non-payment of the $89 million. It is definitely going to come down to a battle of who breached first.

          • Brent Buckner

            As you’ve seen, per Rossi “And they do this now, with the litigation in full course, wherein they say that they say that they do not pay because I did not teach to them to make the plant….” (from http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/10/statement-from-andrea-rossi-on-ih-patent-application/ )

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I’ve seen that.
            Comes from Rossi, so we need to wait for IH to say it. It would be a breach from the side of Rossi, if proven.

  • Shiv Singh

    This is IH Darden to buy out Rossi after drying him out of funds.

    • Roland

      This is Rossi divesting himself of IH by forcing the issue of payment to break a contract with an unreliable partner; as noted in other posts the first E-cat factories, under Leonardo, are destined for Scandinavian Europe and England, undoubtedly with funding that has nothing to do with IH.

  • Shiv Singh

    Rossi should do what Tesla did. Make it open source.

    • Steve Savage

      and how did that work out for Tesla?

  • Shiv Singh

    Rossi should do what Tesla did. Make it open source.

    • Steve Savage

      and how did that work out for Tesla?

  • f sedei

    I always believed the manufacturing and distribution of this magnificent discovery and invention would be delayed. But, I placed blame for such suspected delay upon a zealous Federal,US Government. I guess I was wrong (maybe?). This is a very unconvincing,convoluted story. Stay tuned for the REAL story, eventually.

  • f sedei

    I always believed the manufacturing and distribution of this magnificent discovery and invention would be delayed. But, I placed blame for such suspected delay upon a zealous Federal,US Government. I guess I was wrong (maybe?). This is a very unconvincing,convoluted story. Stay tuned for the REAL story, eventually.

  • NCY

    IH probably is trying to avoid paying Rossi because they probably have been working on the tech quite a lot in the background as well. Since Rossi gave them the secret sauce, they have had ample time to improve on the product to the point that their new devices (that he probably hasn’t even seen) no longer infringe on his patent (or at least that can be argued in court).

    As a result it makes perfect sense why they would want to avoid paying him the agreed sum. At this point they want to cut ties with him, then they can sell the devices that they derived from his initial tech to anyone anywhere (licences no longer apply). For IH it is a no-brainer situation.

    I suspect that either A) Rossi will get pushed aside and both Lenardo and IH will sell E-cat derived technology, or B) they will settle out of court for many tens of millions but IH will want to be separated from Rossi so that they can pursue similar-but-slightly-diferent e-cat tech.

    In reality the only person who loses here is Rossi, and the public in general win, because now IH and Rossi and whoever else is hiding out getting ready to commercialise LENR have got to race like hell to be the first on the market. Beyond that, they will also be competing to see who can make the most efficient, cost effective, and mass-producable designs. Again, it is the public that win in this scenario.

    • Brokeeper

      (See my response below)

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      This is one cynical appraisal and approval of how we do business in the US. You are saying it is OK for them to steal from others as long as they don’t get caught. “Since Rossi gave them the secret sauce”……”it makes perfect sense why they would want to avoid paying him the agreed sum”….” the only person who loses here is Rossi”. The only loser is the man who created the invention!! What does this say about current business ethics in the US?

      • Steve Savage

        Bernie … Business Ethics and Military Intelligence Both in the same category …. I believe it is referred to as an oxymoron.

    • timycelyn

      Indeed. Well put.

      As an aside, one of the most fascinating aspects of this whirlwind we are currently observing is the glee the skeptotards take in a rather curious line of logic.

      1. Rossi and IH are lining up to fight like cats in a sack over this technology. (If half of what most of the group is deducing about IH’s actions and limited statements is true, the dirty tricks department is already well and truly engaged)

      2. Therefore Rossi’s credibility is fatally undermined

      3. Therefore the technology – meaning Rossi’s embodiment of LENR and it’s close derivatives – does not work

      4. Therefore they are fighting over nothing

      Really? I think those guys are losing sight of the game in their somewhat misplaced glee….

  • Brokeeper

    (See my response below)

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    This is one cynical appraisal and approval of how we do business in the US. You are saying it is OK for them to steal from others as long as they don’t get caught. “Since Rossi gave them the secret sauce”……”it makes perfect sense why they would want to avoid paying him the agreed sum”….” the only person who loses here is Rossi”. The only loser is the man who created the invention!! What does this say about current business ethics in the US?

    • Steve Savage

      Bernie … Business Ethics and Military Intelligence Both in the same category …. I believe it is referred to as an oxymoron.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    This is why Rossi should speak out now, release the test now before IH can get the courts to say it is illegal.

  • timycelyn

    Indeed. Well put.

    As an aside, one of the most fascinating aspects of this whirlwind we are currently observing is the glee the skeptotards take in a rather curious line of logic.

    1. Rossi and IH are lining up to fight like cats in a sack over this technology. (If half of what most of the group is deducing about IH’s actions and limited statements is true, the dirty tricks department is already well and truly engaged)

    2. Therefore Rossi’s credibility is fatally undermined

    3. Therefore the technology – meaning Rossi’s embodiment of LENR and it’s close derivatives – does not work

    4. Therefore they are fighting over nothing

    Really? I think those guys are losing sight of the game in their somewhat misplaced glee….

  • timycelyn

    It’s a vortex, presenting lots of different facets, changing all the time.

    One facet is that it looks as though IH have shared a little – or a lot – with the Chinese. Who are heavily investing ($200m seems to be the popular number).

    Irrespective of all these, and future, shenanigans, the Chinese will press forward with this as HARD as they can. It only takes glancing out of the window in most days in Shanghai to understand why…. At present, peak atmospheric particle counts are way, way above WHO limits, and Y-O-Y getting exponentially worse.

    If they bring LENR to market – in whatever form – it cannot be buried in the west for long. Politicians and interest groups can erect barriers, but they are of limited strength.

    If you have the Chinese (and then the Indians) living in ‘LENR world’ the rest of the world will follow.

    Late and disadvantaged, but they will have to follow.

    Or go bust.

  • ebevogon

    Industrial heat (IH or better LLC) is a private company that has been founded in 2012. There is, as far as I know, up to now no other activity or product than the Ecat. Hence one can assume that the foundation of LLC was related to the Ecat. I think that at the beginning LLC trusted Rossi. It looks like a miracle that the start up company succeeded to collect more than 100Million Dollar from several investors. Meanwhile LLC is disappointed from the Ecat and seems to consider it as scam. One needs not to be a clairvoyant to predict that now the investors will try to get back their money. But where is this money? 10Million got Rossi and a certain amount probably has been used to keep the company alive, pay salaries and so on. So we will live to see many litigations for which Rossi gave the starting shot. I also expect criminal trials. Rossi has good experience with them. I know that many people in this blog hope for a success of the Ecat. People like me with doubts are considered to be pathological. It seems that we soon will have a clearance.

    • psi2u2

      You are completely wrong in your belief that IH has no other activity; it has been obvious for some weeks now that they have purchased other LENR IP and worked with others, notably Robert Godes, in the LENR field.

  • kenko1

    90 mil? They’re haggleing over a mere 90 mil? This technology is worth 90 billion if not 90 trillion.

    Building 1 power station would generate 90 billion profit. And I thought Darden et. al. and IH were in it to reduce CO2 and save the planet. I guess not. Pure and simple greed is what it looks like to me.

    Kick Rossi out and make a few billion more for yourselves. How much better can one make their life with a few extra billion? To tell the truth, I live quite comfortably with substantially less.

    Times a’wastin…

    • realm13

      “The world has enough for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed.” – Mahatmi Gandhi

      • JiW

        “Gotta find me a future move out of my way,
        I want it all, I want it all, I want it all,
        and I want it now” -Queen

    • Axil Axil

      It might be more about power than about money. Money is an instrument of power. Rossi will not allow his power over his invention to be shared with anyone. When a company works with Rossi, you do what you are told.

  • realm13

    “The world has enough for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed.” – Mahatmi Gandhi

    • JiW

      “Gotta find me a future move out of my way,
      I want it all, I want it all, I want it all,
      and I want it now” -Queen

  • Michael W Wolf

    You know what I would like to know Frank? Did IH tell Rossi the 1mw reactor didn’t work as he claimed, or did he glean that from their statement responding to his lawsuit?

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t know for sure, Michael, but this is part of what Rossi wrote recently:

      “when it turned to have to pay, they discovered that they never made replications, that the ERV that they had chosen with us was not good, that the test on the 1 MW plant, thanks to which they collected enormous amounts of money from the investors and where I put at risk my health working 16-18 hours per day was not a good test ( but for all the year of the test they NEVER said a single word of complaint, even if they had constantly their men in the plant, etc etc.”

      • Frank Acland

        I don’t know if they said those things directly to AR, or whether he is inferring this from the IH press statement

  • Michael W Wolf

    You know what I would like to know Frank? Did IH tell Rossi the 1mw reactor didn’t work as he claimed, or did he glean that from their statement responding to his lawsuit?

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t know for sure, Michael, but this is part of what Rossi wrote recently:

      “when it turned to have to pay, they discovered that they never made replications, that the ERV that they had chosen with us was not good, that the test on the 1 MW plant, thanks to which they collected enormous amounts of money from the investors and where I put at risk my health working 16-18 hours per day was not a good test ( but for all the year of the test they NEVER said a single word of complaint, even if they had constantly their men in the plant, etc etc.”

      • Frank Acland

        I don’t know if they said those things directly to AR, or whether he is inferring this from the IH press statement

  • A guest

    MFMP has apparently started the self-replication experiment, according to their Facebook page. However the video link does not work, at least in my hands. Has anyone succeeded in viewing it? Maybe Frank or someone can contact them directly to see if they are aware?

    • Frank Acland

      Last I heard they were still in the calibration stages. Maybe Bob can give us an update.

  • A guest

    MFMP has apparently started the self-replication experiment, according to their Facebook page. However the video link does not work, at least in my hands. Has anyone succeeded in viewing it? Maybe Frank or someone can contact them directly to see if they are aware?

    • Frank Acland

      Last I heard they were still in the calibration stages. Maybe Bob can give us an update.

  • Ivan Idso

    Ryan Hunt will be speaking about the MFMP and LENR at the Rochester Earthfest Expo on April 24th at 12:00.

    Title: “Crowdsourcing Scientific Breakthroughs in Clean, Reliable Energy” – Ryan Hunt, facilitator with the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project

    Ryan Hunt has been engineering energy efficiency and resilient living solutions for the last 15 years. For the last 4 years he has been part of an international, open source initiative to demonstrate Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP) is simultaneously pioneering a new, more open and collaborative mode of doing science in the internet age, and driving forward the progress of research into an energy source that has the potential to become humanity’s “New Fire”.

    The Rochester Earthfest Expo is being held at the Mayo Civic Auditorium in Rochester, MN. For more details see our webpage- http://www.earthfestrochestermn.org
    This type of public education is more important than ever. If you live in the area we would love to have you visit.
    Ivan Idso

  • Ivan Idso

    Ryan Hunt will be speaking about the MFMP and LENR at the Rochester Earthfest Expo on April 24th at 12:00.

    Title: “Crowdsourcing Scientific Breakthroughs in Clean, Reliable Energy” – Ryan Hunt, facilitator with the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project

    Ryan Hunt has been engineering energy efficiency and resilient living solutions for the last 15 years. For the last 4 years he has been part of an international, open source initiative to demonstrate Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP) is simultaneously pioneering a new, more open and collaborative mode of doing science in the internet age, and driving forward the progress of research into an energy source that has the potential to become humanity’s “New Fire”.

    The Rochester Earthfest Expo is being held at the Mayo Civic Auditorium in Rochester, MN. For more details see our webpage- http://www.earthfestrochestermn.org
    This type of public education is more important than ever. If you live in the area we would love to have you visit.
    Ivan Idso

  • Axil Axil

    It might be more about power than about money. Money is an instrument of power. Rossi will not allow his power over his invention to be shared with anyone. When a company works with Rossi, you do what you are told.

  • SD

    I know there are a few people invested in Woodford here… I suggest you write to Woodford to complain about IH’s unethical behavior. Might be time for Woodford to start thinking about suing too.

  • Sandy

    It is beginning to look like Rossi was lured into performing a 1-year-long E-Cat test with the promise of $11 million now, $89 million later, and that the testing period was used to establish a competitor that has the resources to crush Leonardo Corporation. If this is what happened, may they burn in Hell.

  • Rossi is in the cat-bird seat, he wisely entered into a limited license agreement with IH he did not sell his IP. Now that there is discord between the parties Rossi can raise money elsewhere without risk but IH is subject to staggering risk from Rossi’s enforcement of his IP license. IH will not likely find another penny of investment and those having invested with them will be running for legal cover in their claw back and protection clauses. Those who are found to have been recipients, or even suspected of being recipients, of Rossi’s IP passed through IH are on very thin ice and likewise have incredible risk exposure to any investor doing their due diligence… The fact that Rossi stuck to the letter of his agreements and filed the law suit promptly upon the default by IH defines he and his case as robust to say the least. I have some experience in this having several times created cold fusion companies, accepted venture capital investors, and suffered the same treatment as Rossi…. he’s doing everything right in my humble opinion of one who has learned the hard way! read more of my experience on this on my blog at atom-ecology.russgeorge.net

  • Rossi is in the cat-bird seat, he wisely entered into a limited license agreement with IH he did not sell his IP. Now that there is discord between the parties Rossi can raise money elsewhere without risk but IH is subject to staggering risk from Rossi’s enforcement of his IP license. IH will not likely find another penny of investment and those having invested with them will be running for legal cover in their claw back and protection clauses. Those who are found to have been recipients, or even suspected of being recipients, of Rossi’s IP passed through IH are on very thin ice and likewise have incredible risk exposure to any investor doing their due diligence… The fact that Rossi stuck to the letter of his agreements and filed the law suit promptly upon the default by IH defines he and his case as robust to say the least. I have some experience in this having several times created cold fusion companies, accepted venture capital investors, and suffered the same treatment as Rossi…. he’s doing everything right in my humble opinion of one who has learned the hard way! read more of my experience on this on my blog at atom-ecology.russgeorge.net

  • HiggsField

    IH worked closely with Rossi for three years, and it would seem that during all this time AR failed to demonstrate excess heat and validate his claims, so IH decided to terminate their relationship. This is the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from what has publicly been disclosed. I would image that IH must be extremely frustrated with Rossi. In my opinion IH had no choice but to terminate their contract because they have a fiduciary responsibility to the investors. And yes, IH did probably raise funds off of the back of AR’s claims, but I can quite imagine difficult discussions going back and forth between IH and the investors looking at the results from various tests etc, and concluding that they do not pass the red face test. That they are perhaps not sufficiently scientifically rigorous enough, cherry picked or are open to fraud. People in this forum are going to have to come to terms with the fact that the E-cat technology is a bust, and that Rossi in not for real and move on.

    • timycelyn

      Nah – sorry but this is a seriously slanted interpretation of the information in front of us. The risks to Rossi in depositing anything else other than the strict truth in court are immense, so this lends considerable credibility to the date that he has deposited.

      Have you bothered to go back and read through the summary that is in the earlier posts properly?

      So far, all we have had is huffing and puffing and loose statements from IH.

      I’ll be more interested when we get to read their deposition. At the moment, on quality of the information submitted, Ross is way more credible.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yea and the higgs bison was supposed to have a footprint at 145 gev, so they could claim a multi-verse. Rossi is under oath and will have to prove it. IH on the other hand, made no formal complaint and let the contract expire without IH paying as obligated. That contract is now void as far as I see it. Only a jury can bring it back to life. Anything IH says is meaningless until they are under oath like Rossi. Imagine that, a skeptopath slandering someone with no proof. We expect it from you. Will you take an oath on that? lol I didn’t think so. But Rossi did. Let the court decide.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Saint Darden did not work with Rossi, Fabiani of IH did and he said it works.

  • HiggsField

    IH worked closely with Rossi for three years, and it would seem that during all this time AR failed to demonstrate excess heat and validate his claims, so IH decided to terminate their relationship. This is the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from what has publicly been disclosed. I would image that IH must be extremely frustrated with Rossi. In my opinion IH had no choice but to terminate their contract because they have a fiduciary responsibility to the investors. And yes, IH did probably raise funds off of the back of AR’s claims, but I can quite imagine difficult discussions going back and forth between IH and the investors looking at the results from various tests etc, and concluding that they do not pass the red face test. That they are perhaps not sufficiently scientifically rigorous enough, cherry picked or are open to fraud. People in this forum are going to have to come to terms with the fact that the E-cat technology is a bust, and that Rossi in not for real and move on.

    • timycelyn

      Nah – sorry but this is a seriously slanted interpretation of the information in front of us. The risks to Rossi in depositing anything else other than the strict truth in court are immense, so this lends considerable credibility to the data that he has deposited.

      Have you bothered to go back and read through the summary that is in the earlier posts properly?

      So far, all we have had is huffing and puffing and loose statements from IH.

      I’ll be more interested when we get to read their deposition. At the moment, on quality of the information submitted, Ross is way more credible.

      • HiggsField

        Rossi will never be able to win a court case because he will never be able to present credible evidence that he met the objectives of the contract. What technical experts will he offer up that are not in someway tied to him and that have credentials? I followed this thing in detail from the very start. No unequivocal evidence for excess heat has ever been offered up by AR. This is also what IH is saying after 3 years of close contact. Don’t forget IH actually got to speak with AR face-to-face and work with him up close. Companies do not terminate agreements like this without good cause. Darden has his reputation on the line here. I’m sure this was not a light decision by IH and the investors. For instance conspiracy theories saying IH sold/transferred the IP to the Chinese are just rubbish. At the end of the day, or should I say 10 million, IH was left asking were is the beef!

        • Michael W Wolf

          No conspiracy required. IH did not formally terminate the agreement, they let it expire by not meeting their obligation. A big difference. When Rossi filed the complaint, the contract was already expired by a breach from IH. That is what we know. And that statement from IH you are quoting has no legal weight at all. But you know what will? Their own lead engineer who claims the 1mw reactor works. And that didn’t come from rossi. Now IH’s own people are in on the scam? You are doing a lot of assuming, and we all know what that means. And it was11.5 million. You had better reread that worthless IH public statement. They didn’t say a word about the 1mw reactor. HMM Why not?

          • HiggsField

            Correct $11.5M was paid, so IH was honoring the contract. It could be of coarse IH was unable to raise the $89M. I accept there is a flip side to the coin:

            https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/09/heres-my-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/

            But, I think the more likely that my scenario is correct one here. If there are credible results AR should have no problem raising funds elsewhere. But really, why would a company who has set itself up to be a leader in this space stiff AR and say its not real? What do they really have to gain by it all?

          • timycelyn

            “What do they have to gain by it all?”

            Many billions of dollars….

          • DrD

            “What do they really have to gain”
            Maybe they believe they can still win and steal his IP OR maybe there’s other parties involved, who’re paying to delay the onset of the end to the fossil fuel era.
            The latter is a frightful thought.

        • timycelyn

          I wouldn’t trust IH to tell me whether it’s raining outside or not. They appear prima face to be swindlers of the worst type. They have an excellent reason for terminating, I agree …. they want to steal it!!

          As to you other assertions about the credibility of Rossi and those that have worked on the technology with him, this will all be tested in court under oath.

          However, one of the problems your dismissive position has here is Fabiani, the IH man that has gone on public record as saying the technology works, and works well. What will he say under oath? Is he prepared to perjure himself for his boss? Can you imagine the line of questioning from counsel going line by line over his internet interview “How could you have been so wrong as to think this, given that you built it?” No jury would believe him if he changed his story that amount.

          If he has any sense he will leave IH post-haste to avoid getting dragged event further into the mire…

          • HiggsField

            You raise a fair point. Time will tell I guess. My reason for seemly being dismissive of Rossi is the lack of irrefutable proof he has a working system given the passage of time since he first appeared on the scene. The replication efforts have also come up short in my opinion. That is not to say that any LENR possibly associated with NI and H are not real effects with AR’s formulation(s). Brillouin said quite sometime back Rossi did not know how to control his reaction. It is quite possible IH lost faith in his ability to develop a reliable and controllable system, and decided to go else where to get the engineering work done. It could well be that his 1 MW reactor worked for periods of time, but not on a continuous basis. It could be that IH plan to use his formulation or a derivative. That’s were things might get very interesting. I hope Rossi has deep pockets.

        • DrD

          Amongst others, I think the customers electricity account might just help a little.

    • Jerry Soloman

      Higgs,

      Billion dollar company:

      That’s not how a Billion dollar company does business – definitely you can not RAISE MONEY if you are even Remotely sure something does not work as demonstrated, in fact you go to jail for making claims then accepting money especially from Venture Capital like Woodford Fund.

      Tom Darden filing competing patent applications:

      Rossi watched Tom Darden as Industrial Heat invested in other companies, filing competing patent applications with false inventors including copied material from Bologna University’s HotCat report without permission among other things and Rossi’s antenna went up to a possible fraud by Tom Darden.

      Tom Darden collected – enormous amounts of money:

      * Industrial Heat collected enormous amounts of money from the investors and after 3 years of collaboration Tom Darden suddenly declared the E-Cats are good for nothing?

      Sophisticated investors:

      These are sophisticated investors and Tom Darden thought they were the only sharks in the tank and now look like idiots. )

      Tom Darden would be advised to settle this before it goes much further.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yea and the higgs bison was supposed to have a footprint at 145 gev, so they could claim a multi-verse. Rossi is under oath and will have to prove it. IH on the other hand, made no formal complaint and let the contract expire without IH paying as obligated. That contract is now void as far as I see it. Only a jury can bring it back to life. Anything IH says is meaningless until they are under oath like Rossi. Imagine that, a skeptopath slandering someone with no proof. We expect it from you. Will you take an oath on that? lol I didn’t think so. But Rossi did. Let the court decide.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Saint Darden did not work with Rossi, Fabiani of IH did and he said it works.

  • Eyedoc

    Hah! AR cease,desist,sealed? no way in he–… AR knows there are hundreds of followers who would shelter him and nurture his technology if needed

  • bfast

    There is another explanation for all of IH’s behavior. I do hope that I am wrong, but consider the following scenario:

    IH examines Rossi’s patent, and finds it to be weak. (I actually think it is very weak in that it does not fully describe how to make an e-cat in sufficient detail that one with ordinary skill in the art could make one.)

    IH intends from the beginning to rip Rossi off by stepping around his patent.

    IH request this inordinately long 1 year test to slow Rossi down, and to give them time to glean knowledge from him.

    Now that the one year test is over, IH says that Rossi has nothing. They do not mean that the e-cat doesn’t work, they mean that he has no usefully protected intellectual property.

    If this scenario is correct, IH may be totally justified by “law”. If so, they are scum of the earth, but “within the law” nevertheless.

    If this is their ploy, or assuming as we all do that the e-cat really does perform, whatever their ploy — I do hope that IH fails miserably. For if IH succeeds, then all of their future dealings will be “lawful” but not moral.

    • timycelyn

      Bruce, this is a fear that I share.

      It is pretty clear that Rossi has seen this coming for at least 6 months now – time to assemble all that data submitted to court, for a starter.

      My betting is that he became convinced this is the way it would go around about the time he went all-out on the quark. I am guessing that the quark is part of a strategy to make whatever IH have got their grubby hands on obsolescent.

      I would further guess that his new backer has pockets at least as deep as IH, if not deeper, and the plan is to bring quark based technology to the market ahead of IH being able to bring conventional ecat tech to the market.

      Also, whilst ownership of the conventional technology is sub-judice how easy will it be for IH to find the funding to develop that which they are trying to steal?

      We could see quark based kit taking over whilst IH are struggling to bring obsolete behemoths to the market…..

    • Fiesler Storch

      It makes more sense to me that Rossi had nothing, that the test Penon did was flawed, but that IH was fooled at the time into giving Rossi the 11 million. Then they had second thoughts, and had a reputable testing outfit, or probably more than one outfit, check out the technology. The outfit(s) reported back that it did not work, so IH refused to pay Rossi the 89 million.

      There are hundreds of billions of dollars that IH would be sharing with Rossi if the thing really worked. Why would they try to cheat Rossi out of any of it? It would be simpler to be honest. They would still be rolling in money.

    • Ted-X

      +1
      Correct, Rossi had not disclosed the secret sauce in his patent.
      Rossi is trying both to eat his cake (make the ecats/xcats) and have it (to have a full patent protection, while his patent is really a weak protection and relates only to certain aspects of the invention and not to the merit). This mistake is made by many inventors and results in lost technologies (many examples of that are known). Rossi’s strategy actually helps the dark forces.

  • bfast

    There is another explanation for all of IH’s behavior. I do hope that I am wrong, but consider the following scenario:

    IH examines Rossi’s patent, and finds it to be weak. (I actually think it is very weak in that it does not fully describe how to make an e-cat in sufficient detail that one with ordinary skill in the art could make one.)

    IH intends from the beginning to rip Rossi off by stepping around his patent.

    IH request this inordinately long 1 year test to slow Rossi down, and to give them time to glean knowledge from him.

    Now that the one year test is over, IH says that Rossi has nothing. They do not mean that the e-cat doesn’t work, they mean that he has no usefully protected intellectual property.

    If this scenario is correct, IH may be totally justified by “law”. If so, they are scum of the earth, but “within the law” nevertheless.

    If this is their ploy, or assuming as we all do that the e-cat really does perform, whatever their ploy — I do hope that IH fails miserably. For if IH succeeds, then all of their future dealings will be “lawful” but not moral.

    • timycelyn

      Bruce, this is a fear that I share.

      It is pretty clear that Rossi has seen this coming for at least 6 months now – time to assemble all that data submitted to court, for a starter.

      My betting is that he became convinced this is the way it would go around about the time he went all-out on the quark. I am guessing that the quark is part of a strategy to make whatever IH have got their grubby hands on obsolescent.

      I would further guess that his new backer has pockets at least as deep as IH, if not deeper, and the plan is to bring quark based technology to the market ahead of IH being able to bring conventional ecat tech to the market.

      Also, whilst ownership of the conventional technology is sub-judice how easy will it be for IH to find the funding to develop that which they are trying to steal?

      We could see quark based kit taking over whilst IH are struggling to bring obsolete behemoths to the market…..

    • Fiesler Storch

      It makes more sense to me that Rossi had nothing, that the test Penon did was flawed, but that IH was fooled at the time into giving Rossi the 11 million. Then they had second thoughts, and had a reputable testing outfit, or probably more than one outfit, check out the technology. The outfit(s) reported back that it did not work, so IH refused to pay Rossi the 89 million.

      There are hundreds of billions of dollars that IH would be sharing with Rossi if the thing really worked. Why would they try to cheat Rossi out of any of it? It would be simpler to be honest. They would still be rolling in money.

    • Ted-X

      +1
      Correct, Rossi had not disclosed the secret sauce in his patent.
      Rossi is trying both to eat his cake (make the ecats/xcats) and have it (to have a full patent protection, while his patent is really a weak protection and relates only to certain aspects of the invention and not to the merit). This mistake is made by many inventors and results in lost technologies (many examples of that are known). Rossi’s strategy actually helps the dark forces.

  • Michael W Wolf

    No conspiracy required. IH did not formally terminate the agreement, they let it expire by not meeting their obligation. A big difference. When Rossi filed the complaint, the contract was already expired by a breach from IH. That is what we know. And that statement from IH you are quoting has no legal weight at all. But you know what will? Their own lead engineer who claims the 1mw reactor works. And that didn’t come from rossi. Now IH’s own people are in on the scam? You are doing a lot of assuming, and we all know what that means. And it was11.5 million. You had better reread that worthless IH public statement. They didn’t say a word about the 1mw reactor. HMM Why not?

  • TVulgaris

    That kind of speculation leads to valuable questions, but- a production prototype test (and this probably would not have been an RTM production model, as continuous long-term operation had never been attempted) is going to be monitored continuously, preferably with the directly-involved engineers and designers in frequent attendance, or certainly readily accessible, to trouble-shoot or tweak. IT WAS A TEST. Apparently it was quite a successful test of the reactor, but there’s little likelihood that reactor would be used AS IS in that or any other plant, ever.

    A better model is what’s going on with the CFL market and LED bulbs- CFL production peaked just a few years after widespread cheap distribution hit, and only lasted for about a decade at that peak before LED bulbs started to be affordable- but the industry is far from dead.
    It’s quite possible IH wants to steal the IP, save $89M, and it’s STILL going to make billions and billions even without the QuarkX just off the industrial market. What I’m really afraid is it’ll tie LC/AR in litigation for years (the countersuits will start within a week, I’d bet) to exhaust all their resources, to block serious competition. I THINK they’ll have some difficulty if Rossi goes to Europe controlling the entire market, but I’m afraid that’s their intent.

  • Oystein Lande

    Interesting info on Florida litigation process:

    “The Defendant has to answer within a certain time (usually about three weeks). The Answer says what portions of the Complaint, if any, the defendant admits to, what the Defendant contests, what defenses the Defendant may have, and whether the Defendant has claims against the Plaintiff or any other party.”

    “If the Defendant doesn’t answer the Complaint, the court may enter a default judgment against the Defendant. If the Answer contains a counterclaim or a third-party complaint, the party against whom that claim is made also has to answer within a certain time.”

    “It’s hard to say how long all these steps will take in your case. The entire process can take from as little as six months, to as long as years. In the case of witnesses, you can be called to testify at any time from shortly after the event to the better part of a decade after it happened. Generally speaking, the less money at stake, and the more issues that can be resolved before trial, the smoother and faster the lawsuit will go.”

    Ref.
    http://boyerlawfirm.com/practice-areas/litigation/florida-civil-litigation/

  • timycelyn

    “What do they have to gain by it all?”

    Many billions of dollars….

  • MorganMck

    As we try to figure out the motives of IH in the apparent breach of their contract with Rossi, it now becomes clear that they were laying the predicate for their actions with the statement they put out warning all to be skeptical of LENR-related claims which may come from a portfolio company (i.e Rossi) and to only trust information issued by IH…

    Recall a comment on the thread containing the IH statement:

    Robert E. Godes

    It is important to read between the lines. I suspect one of the most important statements is “any claims made about technologies in our portfolio should only be relied upon if affirmed by Industrial Heat and backed by reputable third parties who have verified our results in repeated experiments.” IE people should learn to ignore statements put out directly by Rossi. In response to some of the replies…I intended the bit of “statements put out directly by Rossi” mostly in regards to the market readiness of his “products”.

    This statement of Robert Godes (of Brillouin) may be quite telling if there is anything to the IH/Brillouin relationship and the possible transfer of Rossi IP from IH to Brillouin. Food for thought and investigation.

    • Jerry Soloman

      there is little question that Robert Godes and Industrial Heat are working to together with Rossi’s IP and this will all become crystal clear in the near future.

      • Warthog

        And your evidence for this is??????

        • Jarea
          • Warthog

            There is not one word even implying that Godes/Brillouin are “working with Rossi IP”. All this says is that “Brillouin and Lenuco continue to work….”, which is perfectly true….both companies have their own IP approaches and are working to bring them to fruition.

          • wpj

            If you look at their website they claim to be using the same apparatus as before but at high temperature.

          • Warthog

            Not exactly. They have TWO systems, one “wet”, and one “dry”. The “wet” system is essentially a Pons and Fleischmann electrolysis unit engineered to operate at higher pressures (and thus higher temperatures) than the original P&F units. The “dry” system contains no water (or D2O), but uses gaseous hydrogen (or deuterium) on a nanostructured solid “carrier”. The “dry” system operates at 500-700 Celsius (which is less than Rossi uses).

            All that said, “if” IH has licensed their “Q-pulse” technology, and chosen to pair that with Rossi’s solid-phase fuel which they have also licensed, and gotten better controllability than Rossi, it is absolutely legitimate for them to do so. IH will still have to pay Rossi a licensing fee, and royalties, but these will be much less than if they used an “all-Rossi” design.

          • wpj

            Yes, I should have said non-electrolytic and dry; it’s really difficult to say much more from their description.

          • Warthog

            Frankly, I think Rossi will be left out in the cold…not because he doesn’t have something that works, but that what he has is very primitive, and will be quickly supplanted by superior technology. To take a SWAG at it, I would venture that a combination of Brillouin’s “Q-pulse” and Lenuco’s nanostructured zirconium oxide/metal “NAE” particles is a likely candidate. I am sure that there will be many (and mean) patent wars before all is done.

    • SD

      Robert Godes came out of the woodworks to defend IH on ECW before the lawsuit story broke out. Using his reputation as an insider to LENR business in order to discredit Rossi.

      I suppose that if you put your reputation in the game you risk losing it…

      • He is not the only IH partner to defend IH.
        and this is not more than a researcher, researching, with nothing to gain by supporting a bad sponsor.

        LENR have so great impact on economy that every single inventor may irrationally think he can be next Rockefeller. Sorry, it does not work.

        One have to work with partners, share some trust, use and share IP.

        To protect your work as LENR inventor you need not one patent but a pool of patents.

        If researchers work well, there would be dozens of people owning part of the IP inside an LENR device.

        Most people refuse to share and pay, and the result is they stay either locked with their own patent, or locked out of others patents, and cannot innovate fast enough.

        this is the big interest of ecosystem, where people agree to give (paid) access to their patent, in exchange of a paid access to others patents.
        money is not a problem, only “lock-out”.

        let it be clear. Rossi should share his know how with Brillouin, who should share his own, and they would build two slightly different reactors, addressing different problems, integrating both their IP…
        and so one with the others working in IH.
        and the researchers owning no IP, should have access to Rossi and Brillouin IP (against fees), so they can develop something new, that Brillouin and Rossi could exploit (after paiement).

        this way the guys in IH would go faster, and rossi will quickly have access to a dozen of technologies… he would be the king of a sector of the market, with a dozen of others kings…
        but maybe he just want to be the only king in the block.

        sharing economy is the good model.
        you pay for everything, but you can use everything.
        you can achieve your own happiness, but cannot prevent others to.

        • Warthog

          Godes long ago offered to partner with Rossi, much before any connection between Rossi and IH developed. This was along about the time of the third Rossi demo, as I recall. Godes unequivocally said that he thought that Rossi definitely had something, but that he (Rossi) was having controllabilty problems, which Godes claimed to have solved. He was turned down. EVERYTHING I have seen since that time has borne Godes out wrt Rossi’s reactor control problems.

          • Jerry Soloman

            Godes has always been antagonistic towards Rossi Godes wanted what Rossi had and that was control of a LENR Reactor, now that Godes has Rossi IP through Industrial Heat Godes will claim he was the inventor with no previous patent. Watch The Show

          • Warthog

            Sorry, no. The only sense that Godes has “been antagonistic” is because they are competing with technologies. I know of no instance where Godes has ever “bad-mouthed” Rossi.

            There is zero evidence that “Godes has Rossi IP”.

            All that we know is that IH has licensed technology from Godes and they are working together on it.

            “IF” IH was wise enough to license Rossi’s tech and Godes’ tech, and combines them in a way such that it yields a better controlled product, then IH deserves the credit for doing so. “If” the USPTO decides that said combination was “unique and non-obvious”, then IH can and will get a patent on it.

            Godes offered Rossi the same opportunity and Rossi refused it. It will simply be a case where Rossi shot himself in the foot, and his bad.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Or Godes has an axe to grind.

          • Warthog

            Sorry, but there is no evidence of such in Godes public statements, which is all we have to go by. Of course, he wants his tech to “make it” in the market, but so does any inventor.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Godes is in bed with IH, IH is obviously pushing Rossi out. Evidence. Godes was turned down by Rossi when godes asked for him to share his secrets. Evidence. Godes seems to be after what Rossi has and following Rossi around. Axe to grind. May not be so, but completely plausible.

          • Rossi imagien he van win alone.
            godes believes he have an approach better on some points (control) and think that mixing competences may create something better for the good of all.

            rossi think he can play alone.

            this is why he does not respect the agreement with IH and thing that the normal behavior of someone collaborating, is “stealing”.

            I’m tired of tha medievel way of mind.

            you cannot success alone, point.

            patents don’t work, only running faster in a wolfpack can make you win.

          • Michael W Wolf

            signing with IH wasn’t playing alone. Maybe he smelled a rat when IH failed to provide a test facility as contracted?

          • Warthog

            No, not plausible at all. Having IH license his technology is not “being in bed with”, which is an implication of either illegality or conspiracy. There are plenty of solid-phase approaches out there other than Rossi’s which Godes was perfectly free to use.

            ALL we know is that IH has licensed Godes tech (as well as others)….there is NO indication other than pure “pulled out of the air (or a**)” speculation of anything else.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Yea, I was implying IH breaching the contract by sharing Rossi IP with godes, hence in bed. Yea it is speculation. It all depends on who you believe. What if godes and IH planned this all along to get their hands on Rossi IP? It would explain why IH didn’t seem to do anything after they gained Rossi’s IP, like finding a test facility.

          • Warthog

            IH “sharing Rossi IP” with Brillouin does NOT in any way breach the contract. Since IH has licensed both the Rossi IP and some (as yet unknown exactly what) Brillouin IP, it is perfectly legitimate for IH to “put the two together” on a research basis, and, if it works better than the “pure Rossi approach”, for IH to patent the combination in their own name. None of this is illegal, immoral, unethical, or fattening. This sort of thing goes on all the time in the “IP/research” biz.

            IH will still owe Rossi some level of compensation in order to put the postulated combined device on the market.

            This is especially true since Rossi was offered the Brillouin IP, and turned it down. And I don’t think there are sufficient facts available to say “when who did what”. This will all be established in court.

          • Frank Acland

            Interesting point — but what if the Rossi IP was used in connection with Brillouin IP outside the contracted IH geographic territory?

          • Warthog

            ‘Fraid that gets into a level of “fine detail” of patent/licensing law that is “above my pay grade”.

            I “think” that if IH was able to obtain a patent on the technology combination, that IH would owe royalties to Rossi whether inside or outside the geographic territory.

            Working all this out would be part of the court case(s).

  • wpj

    He did not sell them, he licensed them. Completely different, though IH seems to believe differently.

  • HiggsField

    I’m really confused perhaps somebody could help me out here. Perhaps this has already been pointed out previously and I missed it, so forgive me if I’m being redundant.

    The customer for the 1 MW plant test was J.M. Chemical Products, Inc.? Yes

    Herry Johnson is listed as a Director of the company that appears to have been setup Jun 27, 2014

    http://visulate.com/rental/visulate_search.php?CORP_ID=P14000056117

    Is this the same Henry Johnson who is also President of Leonardo Corp?

    http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/SearchResultDetail?inquiryType=DocumentNumber&aggregateId=domp-p10000091220-e18d294e-6d0c-4011-a0a4-ba045b78b5b0&directionType=Initial&searchNameOrder=LEONARDO%20P100000912200&searchTerm=P10000091220

    It would seem so based on the address details. Therefore was Rossi his own customer for the 1 MW plant test? He did not go out and find a customer but instead he created one of his own. I would have to believe that the intention was for the customer to be an independent third evaluation of the technology, after all we are talking about $89M.

    This raises another question, did the 1 MW plant have the necessary approvals to run as a boiler for a year. That’s a lot of high pressure steam. I’m no boiler engineer but I have to believe you can not just operated one without safety approvals,etc, and what was the steam used for? So could it have really run 24/7, week after week, month after month?

    Am I missing something?

    • wpj

      Yes, a lot.

      Read

      http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/08/rossi-provides-explanation-about-1mw-plant-customer/

      All explained in there and Rossi had to get the client/permissions at IH did nothing about the 1 year test

    • Bob

      Your assessment seems to be correct based upon the facts known and shown… not what people want to believe. The secret customer who was so often sited as being responsible for not publishing information or data, has the same officers as Leonardo Corp. Rossi confirmed this to be the case.
      .
      Mr. Rossi did provide an explanation for having the same officers, that the “real” customer is a UK company and they setup this entire plant just to test the eCat. The UK company needed assistance so the Leonardo Corp. president stepped in and done it all. Instead of sending the eCat to an existing plant, it was stated that a new plant was started up for the eCat. An unusual scenario to say the least. However, there has been no indication that any production was actually performed there. We have no knowledge that any products was made or that any production line was in use. It may have simply been a test bed, but we do not know. The building it appears to be in is quite small. LIke everything that is connected to this saga, we have “Rossi says” statements and little else. Does not mean it is false, just that for five years, nothing has been really proven. The secret customer’s site was indeed under Rossi’s control as it appears. However, IH should have known this as well. I have heard speculation about IH and the secret customer, but it is all complete speculation so we must wait for the lawsuit.
      .
      Your second question is important. My OPINION is that there was no production and therefore no license required. That if hot water was all that was generated there would be no pressure boiler and thus no license needed. One does not need a license for a hot water heater, just for pressure boilers. Perhaps their was a production process that only needed hot water, but again we have not evidence to support that. It seems quite reasonable and easy that Rossi could state along the lines : “For 1 year we produced product X that used the hot water generated by the eCat for sterilization etc. etc.” But it seems that no confirmable information will be released.

      • HiggsField

        Thanks. So no foul then? Rossi managed the test on behalf on the UK customer. IH seemed OK with this at the time. Made only hot water not steam. A lot of hot water, I wonder where it went? It could not have been to good in the local environment. Must have been clouds a steam issuing from the building and the drains, assuming the plant ran continuously. Do they pay for tap water in Florida?

        • wpj

          Look at the pictures of the plant! There is a return pipe for water/steam that has been used to return to the unit and, thus, less power is required to re-heat. This is standard practice……………………… And why extensive monitoring is required to determine exactly how much power has been necessary to heat the water

        • So many questions and such an effort to impugn someone’s rep (reputation)..

      • Lux Terrea

        I just read these responses as I have been popping in regularly since 2011 watching things. But this…! There was never a real production facility “plant” associated with the now notorious one year test? Rossi created a fake company to prove his device worked? You have got to be kidding me!

        And anyone here still believes anything this fraud has to say? People have been following this for years and this is where we are? Entire websites have been created to follow this whole story. This website alone has been a major player in stoking what appears to be at this point to have been irrational exuberance (at best) on all of our parts for the last 5 years. Where is the device? Where is the ERV? Did rossi create the “3rd party” that created the ERV? Pardon my profanity, my fellow irrationalists, but WTF?!?!

        • Bob

          1) No one on the blog knows where the 1mw plant is now or if it is still being used. The customer was a Leonardo Corp controlled facility and we have not information if any production of product was actually taking place. Rossi himself has not stated what the current status of the plant is.
          .
          …. some thoughts on the ERV and to your questions…
          2) The term ERV is a “Rossi-ism”. It could simply be that English is not his native language. However, I have found no references to ERV in any internet searches. So as far as the title goes, it appears Rossi made it up. That does really have any impact on the situation though, negative or positive.
          .
          3)The ERV is a Mr. Penon. He is a self-employed consultant, meaning he is not a part of any certifying company or agency such as UL, etc. As such, there was no certification of the 1mw plant for this 1 year test to any recognized standard or agency. He does have a background in various scientific fields, which does support that he has a certain amount experience and knowledge in the field. Protagonist have vilified him for past shoddy work. Others have stated he is qualified. I do not know. I do know that there was no certification to a standard as none exist for an unknown nuclear powered heater and Mr. Penon could not issue a certification anyway, only accredited agencies can do that, such as UL. So your question of where is the ERV… it is Mr. Penon, a lone consultant, not a company or agency. He lives in Europe, so it is very doubtful that he stayed on the job for 365 days. My OPINION is that he simply reviewed data and did not do actual measurements. If so, what or whose equipment would he have used?
          .
          4) The third question is probably the most harmful. Yes, Rossi created the 3rd party that created the ERV. Rossi himself stated that IH dragged their feet and did not find anyone, so he inserted Mr. Penon. Mr. Penon has been used by Rossi in the past to “certify” the eCat. Mr. Penon’s last report in 2012 on the eCat has been criticized heavily by some on Vortex-l, a web blog that is PRO LENR, but has some qualified bloggers who dismiss Rossi. I have not read the 2012 report and could only offer an opinion on it if I did, as I do not have certification in testing boilers myself. But the fact that the ERV was A) picked by Rossi B) A lone individual with no agency oversight C) has been paid by Rossi in the past, does not give a lot of confidence in the so called “ERV Report”.
          .
          Again, not knowing the details or all the facts, the above is all I can say and this is from either Rossi or from published documents, not speculation. I/H should have known about Mr. Penon and they should have done due diligence on his selection. Whether they did or not, I do not know.
          .

        • Michael W Wolf

          IH was contracted to find a test site and did not do so for a year. You calling Rossi a fraud is slanderous. IH put it off and allowed him to do it. Signed off on it, and had their people there, saying it worked great. It is in the contract for IH to provide it. That is a breach of contract and Rossi accepted the breach and took it upon himself to find the test site, letting IH off the hook for breaching the contract. Calling someone a fraud and not knowing all the extenuating circumstances is irrational. Why don’t you let the jury decide? They will be the ones with all the facts at hand. Don’t you think that would be RATIONAL? Pardon my outrage of complete hypocrisy.

          • Lux Terrea

            You claiming facts where there are none and blindly following along is hypocritical. My only crime here was questioning your hero.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Pretty good assessment as far as I know. However it depends on the municipality on how hard it is to be inspected by a licensed professional and retain permits. The rules differ drastically from municipality to municipality sometimes. Some things have universal rules, but not many. Rossi could have chosen a place with very lax licensing. That can be checked rather easily by someone with experience. Why IH didn’t provide the test site as contracted to do is incredible to me. It is like they wanted Rossi to do it, to create lack of credibility.

  • DrD

    “What do they really have to gain”
    Maybe they believe they can still win and steal his IP OR maybe there’s other parties involved, who’re paying to delay the onset of the end to the fossil fuel era.
    The latter is a frightful thought.

  • Private Citizen

    If the tech is real, we all want to see it produced and available ASAP, whether by Rossi or IH.

    Assuming Rossi has the goods, can IH get an injunction preventing him from revealing the IP or manufacturing products in the near term?

    We move from blind scientific speculation to legal arcana on ECW.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I put getting the tech commercialized over Rossi retaining his IP. I think if IH had a strong case, they would have already have taken formal action though. After all, they give him 11.5 million. You would think they would have wanted it back sooner rather than later.

      • Brent Buckner

        I’m not sure how much of that 11.5million IH would have thought recoverable, nor how they’d assess any brand damage from instituting a suit against an investee.

        My top guess is that IH wanted full transfer of knowledge that they didn’t believe they had yet received, and withholding payment (perhaps after or simultaneous with a request for delivery of IP such as copies of all of Rossi’s lab books and notes) was their preferred attempt to pry it out.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Yea. you could be right Brent. A lot of credible people here are saying about the same thing.

  • Bob Greenyer

    New Stream

    All the H2 was adsorbed or used to reduce in part 2

    In part 3, we will be cooling and adding a fresh load to 1 bar and re-heating to 20 W (Over 140ºC in core)

    http://youtu.be/uEV_HYb0PG8

    • Jarea

      Rossi should be interested on the replication of his patent by MFMP. It would be good that Rossi help MFMP to reproduce the same COP he has achieved. This will gain a lot of credibility to sell his product.
      I think Rossi want to wait until the massive lauch of his hotcats, however a lot can happen in between, and maybe he will not be able to do that. I have a bad feeling about who will win the big battle with the big powers. You can´t win against a government which deciced to delay LENR. You can´t. I would like that Rossi think on protecting his legacy before this big war against the big powers is lost. He has the patent, let speed up the coming of the LENR era.

      • Bob Greenyer

        If he has more to share, and he has it covered by patent, he should put it out into the public domain whilst this research is going on. The current runs may be the only chance for him to point to High COP before IH submit their side of the story.

        Having said that – if we see ‘Signal’ / coincident signs of excess heat again LIVE – for the MFMP and LENR it will be a very important moment.

        No guarantees – but we are doing our best.

  • Bob Greenyer

    New Stream

    All the H2 was adsorbed or used to reduce in part 2

    In part 3, we will be cooling and adding a fresh load to 1 bar and re-heating to 20 W (Over 140ºC in core)

    http://youtu.be/uEV_HYb0PG8

    • Jarea

      Rossi should be interested on the replication of his patent by MFMP. It would be good that Rossi help MFMP to reproduce the same COP he has achieved. This will gain a lot of credibility to sell his product.
      I think Rossi want to wait until the massive lauch of his hotcats, however a lot can happen in between, and maybe he will not be able to do that. I have a bad feeling about who will win the big battle with the big powers. You can´t win against a government which deciced to delay LENR. You can´t. I would like that Rossi think on protecting his legacy before this big war against the big powers is lost. He has the patent, let speed up the coming of the LENR era.

      • Bob Greenyer

        If he has more to share, and he has it covered by patent, he should put it out into the public domain whilst this research is going on. The current runs may be the only chance for him to point to High COP before IH submit their side of the story.

        Having said that – if we see ‘Signal’ / coincident signs of excess heat again LIVE – for the MFMP and LENR it will be a very important moment.

        No guarantees – but we are doing our best.

  • HiggsField

    Thanks. So no foul then? Rossi managed the test on behalf on the UK customer. IH seemed OK with this at the time. Made only hot water not steam. A lot of hot water, I wonder where it went? It could not have been to good in the local environment. Must have been clouds a steam issuing from the building and the drains, assuming the plant ran continuously. Do they pay for tap water in Florida?

    • wpj

      Look at the pictures of the plant! There is a return pipe for water/steam that has been used to return to the unit and, thus, less power is required to re-heat. This is standard practice………………………

    • So many questions and such an effort to impugn someone’s rep (reputation)..

  • Lux Terrea

    I just read these responses as I have been popping in regularly since 2011 watching things. But this…! There was never a real production facility “plant” associated with the now notorious one year test? Rossi created a fake company to prove his device worked? You have got to be fucking kidding me!

    And anyone here still believes anything this fraud has to say? People have been following this for years and this is where we are? Entire websites have been created to follow this whole story. This website alone has been a major player in stoking what appears to be at this point to have been irrational exuberance (at best) on all of our parts for the last 5 years. Where is the device? Where is the ERV? Did rossi create the “3rd party” that created the ERV? Pardon my profanity, my fellow irrationalists, but WTF?!?!

    • Michael W Wolf

      IH was contracted to find a test site and did not do so for a year. You calling Rossi a fraud is slanderous. IH put it off and allowed him to do it. Signed off on it, and had their people there, saying it worked great. It is in the contract for IH to provide it. That is a breach of contract and Rossi accepted the breach and took it upon himself to find the test site, letting IH off the hook for breaching the contract. Calling someone a fraud and not knowing all the extenuating circumstances is irrational. Why don’t you let the jury decide? They will be the ones with all the facts at hand. Don’t you think that would be RATIONAL? Pardon my outrage of complete hypocrisy.

      • Lux Terrea

        You claiming facts where there are none and blindly following along is hypocritical. My only crime here was questioning your hero.

  • Warthog

    Sorry, no. The only sense that Godes has “been antagonistic” is because they are competing with technologies. I know of no instance where Godes has ever “bad-mouthed” Rossi.

    There is zero evidence that “Godes has Rossi IP”.

    All that we know is that IH has licensed technology from Godes and they are working together on it.

    “IF” IH was wise enough to license Rossi’s tech and Godes’ tech, and combines them in a way such that it yields a better controlled product, then IH deserves the credit for doing so. “If” the USPTO decides that said combination was “unique and non-obvious”, then IH can and will get a patent on it.

    Godes offered Rossi the same opportunity and Rossi refused it. It will simply be a case where Rossi shot himself in the foot, and his bad.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Or Godes has an axe to grind.

      • Warthog

        Sorry, but there is no evidence of such in Godes public statements, which is all we have to go by. Of course, he wants his tech to “make it” in the market, but so does any inventor.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Godes is in bed with IH, IH is obviously pushing Rossi out. Evidence. Godes was turned down by Rossi when godes asked for him to share his secrets. Evidence. Godes seems to be after what Rossi has and following Rossi around. Axe to grind. May not be so, but completely plausible.

          • Rossi imagien he van win alone.
            godes believes he have an approach better on some points (control) and think that mixing competences may create something better for the good of all.

            rossi think he can play alone.

            this is why he does not respect the agreement with IH and thing that the normal behavior of someone collaborating, is “stealing”.

            I’m tired of tha medievel way of mind.

            you cannot success alone, point.

            patents don’t work, only running faster in a wolfpack can make you win.

          • Michael W Wolf

            signing with IH wasn’t playing alone. Maybe he smelled a rat when IH failed to provide a test facility as contracted?

          • Warthog

            No, not plausible at all. Having IH license his technology is not “being in bed with”, which is an implication of either illegality or conspiracy. There are plenty of solid-phase approaches out there other than Rossi’s which Godes was perfectly free to use.

            ALL we know is that IH has licensed Godes tech (as well as others)….there is NO indication other than pure “pulled out of the air (or a**)” speculation of anything else.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Yea, I was implying IH breaching the contract by sharing Rossi IP with godes, hence in bed. Yea it is speculation. It all depends on who you believe. What if godes and IH planned this all along to get their hands on Rossi IP? It would explain why IH didn’t seem to do anything after they gained Rossi’s IP, like finding a test facility.

          • Warthog

            IH “sharing Rossi IP” with Brillouin does NOT in any way breach the contract. Since Rossi has licensed both the Rossi IP and some (as yet unknown exactly what) Brillouin IP, it is perfectly legitimate for IH to “put the two together” on a research basis, and, if it works better than the “pure Rossi approach”, for IH to patent the combination in their own name. None of this is illegal, immoral, unethical, or fattening. This sort of thing goes on all the time in the “IP/research” biz.

            IH will still owe Rossi some level of compensation in order to put the postulated combined device on the market.

            This is especially true since Rossi was offered the Brillouin IP, and turned it down. And I don’t think there are sufficient facts available to say “when who did what”. This will all be established in court.

          • Frank Acland

            Interesting point — but what if the Rossi IP was used in connection with Brillouin IP outside the contracted IH geographic territory?

          • Warthog

            ‘Fraid that gets into a level of “fine detail” of patent/licensing law that is “above my pay grade”.

            I “think” that if IH was able to obtain a patent on the technology combination, that IH would owe royalties to Rossi whether inside or outside the geographic territory.

            Working all this out would be part of the court case(s).

  • PappyYokum

    Has Fabio Penon made a statement about his report? Since the report itself has not been made public, I was wondering if anyone has contacted him about either his report or his year monitoring the plant in Florida. Is he allowed to say anything? Can he confirm or contradict what Rossi has written about the 50+X COP?

  • HiggsField

    I think we have reach the point now where one can safely say to Rossi it’s time to put up or shut up!

    “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

    Darden Et al have strong reputations, Rossi does not. Who do you belief? After all they extended a helping hand to Rossi to the tune of $11.5M, that ‘s not chump change, it’s serious money.

    Does anyone really believe there has been a truly independent evaluation of Rossi’s technology? One where his hand is a million miles away from the device. There really hasn’t. Finding out that he was the supposed customer for the 1 year test was the last straw for me. From what I can deduce Darden believes in a rigorous scientific approach, Rossi is a suck it and see guy. By contrast Brillouin Energy is a great fit for IH. This whole enterprise reminds me of the QEG, only several magnitudes higher in money and time spent. With all this said I’ve no doubt that the fan club here will remain strong for Rossi, at least for a while at least. Got my coffin, nail and hammer ready.

    • Frank Acland

      I think it’s clear that Industrial Heat/Cherokee did not turn over $11.5 million based on nothing. They were satisified with the due diligence process they went through with the E-Cat.

      In their January 2014 press release they stated that “performance validation tests were conducted in the presence of IH personnel and certified by an independent expert.” This photo is from the testing that took place — I think we can see JT Vaughn and Tom Darden there: http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/IHEcattest.jpg
      The contract in the court documents states that regarding this testing:

      Unit A Performance Requirements
      Unit A will be required to consistently produce energy that is at least six times greater than the energy it consumes (that is coefficient of performance “COP” of six or greater) and steam that is 100 degrees of Celcius or greater during a 24 hour test period . . .

      The ERV will measure the flow of the heated fluid and the Delta T between the temperature of the fluid before and after the E-Cat reaction. The energy absorbed by the unit will be determined by measuring the electricity consumed. From these measurements, the ERV will determine the COP of the unit. At the conclusion of the test, the ERV will produce a final report showing the results.” http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/01-3.pdf

      IH must have been satisfied with these results because they paid the part of the license fee that was dependent upon the satisfactory performance of this report, which was $10 million according to the license agreement here: http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/01-2.pdf (p. 4)

      • Michael W Wolf

        In their public statement they have contradicted this.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Strong reputations? The SEC just ruled against Saint Darden and Cherokee. IH has made major contradictions in their statements/patents. IH has kept 60 million dollars of their investors’ on false pretense. Rossi under oath formally accused IH for breach of contract. Until a ruling in court, IH is the dishonest broker here. You had better scratch off Rossi’s name on that coffin and replace it with Darden’s.

    • HiggsField : “I think we have reach the point now where one can safely say to Rossi it’s time to put up or shut up!”

      Can we say the same to you about your solid evidence supporting your assertion? No? I didn’t think so …

      There is SO MUCH wiggle room in that IH press release that there is daylight showing through the cracks …

  • HiggsField

    I think we have reach the point now where one can safely say to Rossi it’s time to put up or shut up!

    “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

    Darden Et al have strong reputations, Rossi does not. Who do you belief? After all they extended a helping hand to Rossi to the tune of $11.5M, that ‘s not chump change, it’s serious money.

    Does anyone really believe there has been a truly independent evaluation of Rossi’s technology? One where his hand is a million miles away from the device. There really hasn’t. Finding out that he was the supposed customer for the 1 year test was the last straw for me. From what I can deduce Darden believes in a rigorous scientific approach, Rossi is a suck it and see guy. By contrast Brillouin Energy is a great fit for IH. This whole enterprise reminds me of the QEG, only several magnitudes higher in money and time spent. With all this said I’ve no doubt that the fan club here will remain strong for Rossi, at least for a while at least. Got my coffin, nail and hammer ready.

    • Frank Acland

      I think it’s clear that Industrial Heat/Cherokee did not turn over $11.5 million based on nothing. They were satisified with the due diligence process they went through with the E-Cat.

      In their January 2014 press release they stated that “performance validation tests were conducted in the presence of IH personnel and certified by an independent expert.” This photo is from the testing that took place — I think we can see JT Vaughn and Tom Darden there: http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/IHEcattest.jpg
      The contract in the court documents states that regarding this testing:

      Unit A Performance Requirements
      Unit A will be required to consistently produce energy that is at least six times greater than the energy it consumes (that is coefficient of performance “COP” of six or greater) and steam that is 100 degrees of Celcius or greater during a 24 hour test period . . .

      The ERV will measure the flow of the heated fluid and the Delta T between the temperature of the fluid before and after the E-Cat reaction. The energy absorbed by the unit will be determined by measuring the electricity consumed. From these measurements, the ERV will determine the COP of the unit. At the conclusion of the test, the ERV will produce a final report showing the results.” http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/01-3.pdf

      IH must have been satisfied with these results because they paid the part of the license fee that was dependent upon the satisfactory performance of this report, which was $10 million according to the license agreement here: http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/01-2.pdf (p. 4)

      • HiggsField

        I think it is fair to say Darden made the initial two payments in good faith with really not much to go on. He gave Rossi an unprecedented opportunity to demonstrate that he could deliver on the promise of the 1 MW plant. I would also assume the deal included purchase of the IP. Is the picture from the plant in Italy or Florida? Either way it shows that Darden had some relationship with Rossi, and I assume was OK with the way the test was to be performed and the personnel involved. But somewhere along the way things soured. At the conclusion of the years’ testing Darden and his associates concluded Rossi had not sufficiently demonstrated what he claimed was possible. This is very significant. To say that as some have that Darden premeditatedly set out ti rip off Rossi is outragious in my opinion.

        I do not reject Rossi’s claims out of hand. It could be that his Ni formulations are real, but his implantation of a system may be falls short of what is required.

        • Frank Acland

          That’s at Rossi’s facility in Ferrara, Italy — date was around April 30-May 1, 2013

        • Michael W Wolf

          Yea, I agree with a lot of that statement man, Reasonable hypothesis.

        • wpj

          Not quite; the testing of the MW plant was supposed to start within 120 days with IH finding the customer and obtaining necessary permits.

          This did not happen and the contract was amended to reflect this; IH had every opportunity to have a verified operation at their place of choosing, but now everyone is accusing AR of fraud as he had to sort out some sort of operation to conduct the test.

          I’m not defending AR, because there are probably some other things going on which we do not know about, but the revealing court documents need to be genuine otherwise it is perjury.

          • HiggsField

            Clearly IH was OK with changes made to the testing regime and the place of testing. They were clearly not happy with the results all said and done, and there may be other things like not transferring IP etc that caused them to believe AR was in breach of the agreement. We will not know the details of this until the court case like you say. Also, I am not accusing AR of fraud. NO results or details of the testing have been published.

      • Michael W Wolf

        In their public statement they have contradicted this.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Strong reputations? The SEC just ruled against Saint Darden and Cherokee. IH has made major contradictions in their statements/patents. IH has kept 60 million dollars of their investors’ money on false pretense. Rossi under oath formally accused IH for breach of contract. Until a ruling in court, IH is the dishonest broker here. You had better scratch off Rossi’s name on that coffin and replace it with Darden’s.

      • HiggsField

        Yer I saw that. The coffin is pine and the branding iron is on order from Hong Kong. Easy to change the text:)

    • HiggsField : “I think we have reach the point now where one can safely say to Rossi it’s time to put up or shut up!”

      Can we say the same to you about your solid evidence supporting your assertion? No? I didn’t think so …

      There is SO MUCH wiggle room in that IH press release that there is daylight showing through the cracks …

  • Frank Acland

    That’s at Rossi’s facility in Ferrara, Italy — date was around April 30-May 1, 2013

  • Michael W Wolf

    Yea, I agree with a lot of that statement man, Reasonable hypothesis.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Pretty good assessment as far as I know. However it depends on the municipality on how hard it is to be inspected by a licensed professional and retain permits. The rules differ drastically from municipality to municipality sometimes. Some things have universal rules, but not many. Rossi could have chosen a place with very lax licensing. That can be checked rather easily by someone with experience. Why IH didn’t provide the test site as contracted to do is incredible to me. It is like they wanted Rossi to do it, to create lack of credibility.

  • wpj

    Not quite; the testing of the MW plant was supposed to start within 120 days with IH finding the customer and obtaining necessary permits.

    This did not happen and the contract was amended to reflect this; IH had every opportunity to have a verified operation at their place of choosing, but now everyone is accusing AR of fraud as he had to sort out some sort of operation to conduct the test.

    I’m not defending AR, because there are probably some other things going on which we do not know about, but the revealing court documents need to be genuine otherwise it is perjury.