Rossi Says 'Brake' Now Removed, Production Will Be Accelerated

If it hasn’t been apparent to readers here yet, I’ve noticed a distinct change in the kinds of information that Andrea Rossi has been posting on the Journal of Nuclear Physics lately — since various documents were made public in the US District Court handling his lawsuit against Industrial Heat. He’s talking freely about things that previously he would not comment on at all since they have now been made public in the documents submitted to the court; in his mind it seems he is not bound by the license agreement that he claims has been violated.

There are some of these comments on other posts here are ECW, and here is another set of Q&A’s from the JONP that give an indication of his attitudes now.

Jerry Jones
April 8, 2016 at 6:24 AM
Dr Rossi, questions on ECW:

1) Is this legal case going to affect the production of E-Cat X or Quarks or whatever they are called?

AR: NO

2) Is the production and appearance on market delayed? By how much?

AR: it will be accelerated, because they were a brake

3) Does Rossi need new investors and money to get the production started?

AR: no

4) What obstacles other than remaining R&D are there now to get production and sales started?

AR: none, apart, limited to the domestic E-Cats, the safety certification

  • The best thing Rossi could do now is to just bring this device to market as fast as possible.

    If 10 or more totally independent companies bought a plant and report positive, the issue is solved.

    • Hador_NYC

      Count me as someone cheering him on. had I a facility, I’d be talking to him. sadly, i am merely a cog in a corporate wheel, so I can’t help.

    • Jonnyb

      It maybe easier and quicker to produce the small units, just the safety Issue.

  • Tom59

    Giving away all his IP rights and publish all his secrets would best kickstart this tech and make AR immortal.

  • LuFong

    What strange to me is that IH holds really good IP cards. They get the bigger part of the market, any improvements Rossi makes, improvements they make, and first dibs at buying licneses from other territories.

    If Rossi’s technology works then the $89M they need to pay is a bargain. The only reason they would not want to pay this is if they are inherently dishonest and are trying to steal the technology or they’ve identified a better technology (now or in the near future) rendering Rossi’s technology worthless to them. Both of these in some combination could come into play.

    On the other hand if Rossi’s technology doesn’t work then what IH is doing makes perfect sense if you allow for IH being incredibly stupid (debatable). Rossi has no choice but to counterattack and press on because if he doesn’t he is dead given IH’s refusal to back Rossi’s technology. At the very least might be able to collect some or all of the $89M owned him and generate more income.

    • passerby

      Surely there is a way to verify if the people behind IH have demonstrated this business strategy in the past. Darden is responsible for starting hundreds of companies, many of which dealt with IP when hiring scientists to develop tech. How did they treat these people?

      • C. Kirk

        Brownfield remediation is Darden’s/Cherokee speciality which is a lot different than what he is investing in now (LENR startups)

    • Ged

      Except counterattacking opens up court exposure to fraud, which is a criminal offense. In the latter scenario, Rossi would have to not realize he’s committing suicide by doing that, rather than slinking off quietly to find other investors.

      • LuFong

        Some people think the best defense is offense. It’s a risk for sure but if Rossi does nothing he is dead now versus really dead years later.

        • Ged

          I dunno… perhaps he would think that. But it’s vastly easier to kick the can down the road while keeping to the shadows and just making allegations to confuse matters; while a court case of fraud makes him dead to everyone immediately, and particularly as he would lose that case and be jailed by the American system. He’d definitely be done and cooked for good.

          • LuFong

            I expect this court case to last years. Rossi can of course preempt everything by permitting an independent and rigorous verification of his technology. He says he plans to do this by massively producing a product. The clock is ticking for him one way or another.

            I put a lot of faith in the actions and words of IH and have said that IH’s actions after this test is more important to me than the ERV report. The fact that the ERV is a Rossi associate supports this position even more. Having Rossi pick “a customer of IH” and having him lie throughout this affair (1st plant sold to the military etc) doesn’t help either.

            I haven’t decided where I stand–we need to hear IH’s side of the story including their evidence. I just tried to lay out the big picture as I see it.

          • Ged

            Understandably.

            Again though, IH also picked Penon, and I don’t know where the idea he’s an associate of Rossi’s (in a negative sense) comes in, since IH picked Penon years ago with the 24 hour test, too. IH approved the protocols, and so forth. Unless those protocols changed and IH didn’t approve the changes–that would be an interesting wrinkle. IH dragged its feet about a customer, but Rossi didn’t create the customer, someone else did, and there’s an attorney with his reputation on the line acting between these forces.

            I dunno, it’s all so messed up. It’s irrational for Rossi, if he was scamming, to file a suit, as it doesn’t matter if it takes years for a full resolution (and it actually won’t take that long, but only so if one considers appeals), the act of filing the suit will very rapidly cause discovery and counter suits (as we are seeing and living through right now).

            It’s also irrational for IH to say it doesn’t work when they raised so many, many millions from others claiming it did. They made Lugano, they had all these tests run. They were being paid by the customer, so they were making money, etc.

            Well, we’ll know for sure the truth of all this. If Rossi’s filing is unsubstantiated, then IH will blow it to pieces and Rossi will be countered for fraud in a matter of weeks, not years, and would have done himself in.

          • Steve Savage

            So Either Rossi is a scammer
            or
            IH got too greedy
            There is 0 … absolutely none … No evidence of a scam .. anywhere in this story on Rossi’s side of things.
            This is IH getting too greedy …. Only thing that make any sense to me…

          • Sanjeev

            I did some digging on Penon and it appears that he is testing E-Cats since the beginning. The first instance I found is Rossi appointing him as in charge of security certificate process (SGS certificate). He did the tests of hot cat for the “military customer”. He did the 24 hr test (twice) and finally the 1 year test.
            So it all depends on how you define an “associate”. As soon as you pay someone to do some work, he becomes an associate.

            I remember that Penon produced a very unprofessional report on 1MW plant test and there was some issue that he did not even sign it. So I guess appointing Penon again for the 1 year test was not Rossi’s best decision. Strangely IH had no problems with any of this.

          • Frank Acland

            Penon was not the person who presided over the October 2011 1MW plant test, that was Domenico Fioravante.

          • Sanjeev

            Thanks Frank.
            Probably you remember more about Penon. Any past connections with Rossi?

          • Frank Acland

            He did this test in 2012 of the first Hot Cat. https://www.scribd.com/doc/105322688/Penon4-1

            We now know that he did the Validation test for IH of the E-Cat Plant in Ferrara Italy which was the first step in Rossi getting paid for his license withe IH.

          • artefact

            I think to remember he came suddenly to make the “penon” report which was the beginning of the tests with IH.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think Rossi picked Penon and Industrial Heat agreed. After that first test, there may have been a disagreement in continuing with Penon as the ERV. But the contract states that they keep the old ERV if the parties don’t agree.

            I want to see the validation report. I am afraid that Penon has another Wet Steam like result based on the heat of vaporization of water. They have been expanding a lot of steam. Assuming flowing 0.45 liters per second and a 1600:1 expansion ratio, they would have been exhausting 720 liters per second of steam = 0.72 m^3/second. Say the chimney was one foot = 0.305 m in diameter, it would have an exit velocity of 0.72/.0731 = 10 m/s, or 36 km/hr. I guess its possible. What about boiler scale? Looks like 5 mg/L is typical for moderately hard water. They need to remove 200 grams a day of minerals. I guess it is possible to do that too.

            I just want to see the report on the rig to see if there are sufficient holes that it cannot be validated at the minimum COP level. I find it hard to believe that if Rossi had a working machine that IH could not validate at Rossi’s COP level of 4, or even the level of 2.6 minimum level (which would reduce the payment to 2.6/6*90mm=$39 mm.

            I have read here that the Lugano COP when properly adjusted for emmissivity was 1.7. I am afraid that is what IH replicated. Hence, they would claim not to be liable for the additional payment.

            Finally, a machine with a COP of 1.7, while a physics breakthrough, is probably not worth $1.5 mm each, particularly when it still requires 24×7 skilled technicians to operate it. Commercial electricity in the US 10.74 cents/kWh, so that the savings is 10.71-10.74/1.7=4.4 cents/kWh. For one year at 1 MW that savings is $385K/year if you used electricity to generate heat, but why not just install natural gas at $7/mcf = 2.39 cents/kWh ??? The same heat would cost only $210K/year. Add in the cost of a 24×7 skilled technician, and the need to change out the elements and remove scale, the COP 1.7 E-Cat doesn’t make economic sense.

            Hence, IH may have had machine that works but no one would pay $1.5 mm/year. Worse, if the electricity was generated using a Rankine cycle plant with 50% efficiency, it cost more carbon to heat your shop.

            We need to see the results of the report.

          • Ged

            We very much need to see that report, indeed. IH built the majority of the 1 MW plant themselves, as their lead tech guy has stated, so I am sure they know a lot of these details very intimately. Hopefully they’ll share some info when they file their defense.

          • SG

            It is possible, but I think improbable for the following reasons. Remember the Lugano testers purposely did not enable the self-sustain mode (a mistake in my opinion) because they thought it would be easier to test that way.

            Also, the steam conjecture was put to bed by the majority. Only the hold-outs like Mary Yugo still felt there was an issue. All of the scientists who were present and involved in the early tests dismissed the steam quality hypothesis.

            In addition, the steam issue was taken out of the equation altogether in subsequent tests that involved a dual-circuit configuration (one circuit for the hot water/steam, a heat-exchanger, and another circuit for the measured heat in a non-gaseous state).

            Finally, I can understand believing that steam quality might cause the results to be off by a factor of 2 or 3, but a factor of 50? Really?

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think the contract attempts to take steam quality out of the equation by stipulated that the temperature of the steam must be ABOVE 100C.

            The 50x it says “briefly”. I assume that the ERV report is going to say ~6X continuous.

            The steam report was pre-Lugano, but was a Bologna test with Levi. Lugano was my recollect a hot-cat test with no steam only radiation. I believe that some are claiming the emissivity assumed could have made the report off by a factor of 4ish. Look for a claim like this when IH files their “Answer” to the “Complaint”.

          • SG

            We certainly need clarification on the multiplier. The complaint references the 50x COP in various vague ways. The ERV report will help, but based on IH’s PRish statement, they are going to dispute the findings in the ERV.

          • US_Citizen71

            Wet or dry steam doesn’t really matter in a closed loop system only the total heat content being moved. More will come out about the measurements and what the steam was used for you can count on it.

          • Anon2012_2014

            The heat exchanger/condenser for the closed loop would be quite large. 1 MW if it was a diesel engine that was 25% efficient would be a 250 kW engine or about 330 HP. We are not just talking about getting rid of the heat, but condensing. Where is the condenser unit? Doesn’t it need quite a large external radiator with a lot of air flow, and do we have a secondary coolant circuit between the primary (the experiment steam) and the outside. How are all these flows, temperatures, and potential leaks measured. I think it is cheaper to demineralize and then exhaust the steam outside.

          • US_Citizen71

            Not if the energy is being used in a process or by a machine. The customer could have been running a laundry for all we know and heating water or drying clothes would dissipate the heat no problem. Until otherwise proven there is no reason to assume that the steam wasn’t being used for some time of work.

          • US_Citizen71

            Penon is as much IH’s associate as Rossi’s he has been involved with both for the same length of time, we just didn’t know that until the lawsuit.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Or they simply don’t want the technology to get out.

      • LuFong

        While I recognize this as a possibility, I put the chances of these kinds of conspiracies as extremely low.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Ok, better term is control and slow down the adoption of LENR.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Agree, but slow down and control adoption is a reasonable concept here.

    • timycelyn

      Or this is about access to the quark (although I read in these threads they should already have that as per the contract). If they do not have access and it’s as good as we have been reading

      1. They won’t want to pay $89m for a piece of history
      2. This is a way to try and force him to give them the access they feel they should have.

      We need more information, much more. At the moment there can be as many theories about what has precipitated this and what IH is up to, as there are theories about why the ‘Rossi Effect’ works…

      • LuFong

        They do per the agreement and Rossi prior to the agreement confirmed it multiple times. Maybe Brillouin has a better solution?

        I agree on the information. I want to see the ERV report and hear what IH says about their replication attempts and Rossi’s actions.

    • wpj

      Sorry, but Rossi has obtained $11.5m for verified results, IH $260m on those results (f the Chinese figure is correct) so where is the fraud if the technology does not work?

  • artefact

    What if IH goes to market worldwide without respecting the former territory an AR wins in court (after some years)?
    I think they just have to pay Rossi some billions but at the same time they made much more money by selling the devices. Or how would that be?

  • giovanniontheweb

    Maybe IH driver you see behind the windshield is just a picture

  • Gerrit

    I have not enough time to make up my mind on all of this. I planned to open up a bottle of champagne, instead I’ve opened a bag of popcorn.

    • artefact

      Bon appétit!

    • Bob Greenyer

      it is not the destination but the journey

      • wpj

        “Got to be the going, not the getting there, that’s good” Greyhound, Harry Chapin, 1970s

      • Gerrit

        The bag of popcorn is half empty or it’s half full.

        • Mats002

          Popcorn with water is nice.

        • NCkhawk

          Comparing the backgrounds or Godes, McKubre and Darden to Rossi is not a legitimate endeavor. None of those three gents are known for playing games.

          • SG

            Which is all the more shocking why they are giving in to what appears to be PR firm statements that come across as entirely inconsistent with what is known by the LENR community for the past three years.

          • DrD

            Guys, as upsetting as this all is, I think it will not belong before the truth is unavoidable and opposition haven’t a leg to stand on. I just hope AR has all his bases covered, securely.

          • MasterBlaster7

            “I just hope AR has all his bases covered, securely.”….the good news is that Rossi tactically launched this law suit 5 days after non-payment of the 89 million putting IH in breach; and there are many points and claims in the law suit. I think that Rossi is on the ball with how to handle this. He has learned a lot of legal lessons over the years.

          • C. Kirk

            Please explain “known for playing games” Are you again insuinaing that Dr. Rossi is a fraud? IMO filing a $89M lawsuit is stupid unless you “have the goods”

          • Omega Z

            While I have always given Darden the benefit of the Doubt(Because of Rossi) I have always had certain reservations about him.

            Me thinks him dost “profess” to much about doing good for the people. These people usually do “VERY” much good for their own bank account.

            I have more regards for the professed sinner then the professed saint because I feel the saint shouldn’t need to profess anything. Their work should speak for itself.
            ——————————————-
            Robert Godes, He plays “THE” game. His recent post here at ECW is the telltale of that. But he is as much a victim to the powers at work as Rossi and a few others are.
            ——————————————-
            Michael McKubre, Simply a victim of circumstance caught in the crossfire.

  • Mike Henderson

    Safety certification: In 350 days, the 1 MW plant released the equivalent of 7.2kT of TNT. Who certifies that? Underwriter Labs? Department of Energy? Department of Defense? NASA?

    • Stephen Taylor

      I dunno, who certifies a boiler? If there is no toxic fuel or waste and no radiation it’s just a boiler.

      • Omega Z

        Boiler’s require certification as if poorly designed and built can lead to them exploding under pressure.

        • Ged

          The Mythbuster’s episode on household water heaters rocketing through roofs was eye opening. When water gets pressurized, it can do amazing, jaw dropping feats.

        • Brent Buckner

          I read Stephen Taylor as providing an answer to Mike Henderson’s question, and his answer is that the certifying authority would be the one responsible for certifying boilers.

          • Ophelia Rump

            So direct to electricity is UL labs and Good Housekeeping.

            No boiler.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Yes, of course, we were wondering what agency has responsibility. Is it routine business? I think in this case it is somewhat routine.

          • Omega Z

            Standards for Boilers are set by- American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME),
            However, There are certified inspectors available from UL, SGS, (CE) and among many large plumbing outfits. It’s like having an electrical inspection. Merely need to know whom to call. That’s what Google is for…

            By the way, I had to Google ASME because I couldn’t remember what it stood for. It was something I needed to know for a test several decades ago. Seriously. I needed to know it for a test. I never, ever needed to know this again in the real world. However, It kept someone employed giving tests.

          • Yes, certification standards for pressure vessels are written by Standards agencies such as ASME in the ‘States, BSI in the UK, DIN in Germany, and so on. There are a number of them, depending on intended usage, pressure ranges and so forth, and any applicable Standards must be met.

            For plant using electrical power (electric boilers) there are similarly complex electrical Standards, and a whole range of ‘Health and Safety Standards, all of which must be met when a plant item is assessed by an inspection company during the actual certification process.

            These are just the basics for industrial use. For domestic use there are even tighter Standards to be met before a product can be released. It’s very unlikely that Rossi could get away with skirting around the power source and simply applying electrical and pressure Standards to a domestic LENR device. Even if some lax inspector was fooled, someone would pick up on power in vs. power out and blow the whistle.

            This would mean new Standards having to be written by the relevant Standards agency – a long, complex, detailed (and expensive) process, requiring very detailed evidence that the innovative principle is safe for use by untrained personnel (the public). Don’t hold your breath.

          • Michael W Wolf

            The municipality that it was to be used in I think.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Yes, maybe county (Dade?) for the permit and facilitated by it being a certified boiler. All evidence of its existence at least.

    • wpj

      Rossi said that there were permits that he had to obtain to conduct the test

  • Bob Greenyer

    Yes, thanks to donations, we are tooled up and have a strong team here – the most west I have ever been!

    I also wanted to escort and ensure that key pieces of equipment arrived and that the process could be documented in extreme detail with videos.

    Thanks to those that made it possible.

    • Ged

      “we are tooled up and have a strong team here”

      How very Rossi-esque ;). Good luck guys, so glad to see such big matters progressing!

  • JiW

    Piantelli’s separation of Li-material (28) from Ni+H surface structure. Mixed stuff might create just small random areas with right conditions, hence only small random results?

  • Josh G

    This opens up some interesting questions. Where will Leonardo manufacture and distribute the Ecats? Presumably in the countries where it had preexisting agreements before licensing with IH, otherwise they risk violating the contract. Did anyone else notice that one of the documents referred to in the IH license agreement was an agreement between Leonardo and AEG? I suspect Rossi has been working with AEG to roll out production for European markets, which will hopefully move forward without further delay. Not clear when the ecat will make its debut in the US market … Maybe somebody wants to ask him about this issue on JoNP?

    • Michael W Wolf

      IH didn’t formally declare a breach by Rossi. Does that mean when IH breached the contract by not paying, the contract is null and void?

      • NT

        One would think so, but maybe more to it all than just the final payment – good question for Rossi…

      • Josh G

        I don’t think so, but I’m not sure (and not a legal expert by any means).

  • Omega Z

    I think I’ll invent something and make a lot of money.
    Lets see, It needs to be something that people really want or need or I will make no money.

    I know. I’ll discover a cure for cancer.

    Nope. People will just want me to give it away for free or steal it from me. All my time, efforts and investment will be lost.

    Screw it. I’m going fishing. Let some one else find the cure.
    ————————————————————————-
    While most everyone at ECW would agree, the Nobel Prize is given only to the living…

  • e-dog

    SPACEX just landed a fricken huge robot rocket called on a floating boat in the ocean called “of course I still love you”…

    • Ged

      Incredibly impressive work for them! I wondered if it would just not be possible, between the bobbing on the waves, the high winds typical of the ocean, and a rocket sticking straight up with a high center of gravity amidst it all. But they did it. Now, if they can do it routinely, it could revolutionize space affordability. At least that is some good news going on during all this chaos.

  • Ged

    Exactly. So if they knew it wasn’t going to pay off, they get to keep the 50-60 million Woodford invested, let alone all the Chinese and other unknown investors have given them.

  • Observer

    It looks a lot like the Armstrong – Sarnoff conflict. Hopefully with a more just resolution.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    You got it. It is being done to many companies and individuals with original IP. There are companies, law firms that do nothing but this, it is called white collar crime, they use the courts, outdated laws, and no or poor regulation. I call it Crony Capitalism. Wall Street brokers knew those AAA bonds they were selling were rotten, those bonds sent our entire economy into a tail spin recession. Did anyone go to jail? Of course not, it is called “white collar crime”.

    • Mats002

      Georgehants have a point in his consistantly message here at ECW.

  • Andrew

    Why is the Ecat even considered a disruptive technology? Assuming 100% efficiency in conversion if Rossi were to produce 1000 megawatt reactors a day it would still take about 300k years to fully saturate the globe… Based on 104,000 terawatt consumption.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption

    • Mats002

      Good point. Release it asap.

    • SG

      Because Mr. Rossi won’t be the only one. You’ll have IH releasing their own versions at the same time. And probably a host of others. The patent battles will be fought out over the course of years, maybe decades.

  • US_Citizen71

    Add to that the fact that Cherokee Darden’s baby has some history of not coming up with the needed money for projects I wonder what really is going on. They left a brownfield site here in Denver as a giant mudhole blight on the area.

    http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13320307

  • Frank Acland

    Roughly double the normal amount over the last couple of days.

  • Private Citizen

    John Tandberg is long gone

  • Andrew

    and yet there are still horses

    • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

      realistically, no there aren’t any horses in the world… not compared to the astronomical numbers that existed in comparison in the 19th century.

      • HS61AF91

        I can only think of Rumania, Hungary and Mongolia.

    • US_Citizen71

      What percentage of the world population still use horses for transportation?

  • Omega Z

    You are of coarse correct. My mistake. I’m just so used to people posting this about Fleischmann. At least he saw the tide turning before he passed.

  • Veblin

    What does this shipment from 2007 have to do with anything.

  • hempenearth

    There is a difference between proof and evidence. The term “bits of proof” is not helpful. We need to determine which bits of evidence are relevant.

    • Kip Travall

      True hemp….but there is an OVERWHELMING bias to believe Rossi 100% and throw out pretty much every single shred of information that would be negative toward Rossi. It blows my mind how biased the analysis of this situation is here on this forum!

      • Omega Z

        Just as there is OVERWHELMING bias to believe Rossi is a fraud.
        You should have done a little work and you would know that Rossini Marble is a brand name. Found all over the U.S.

  • Kip Travall

    The blinders suit you well my friend. Rather than just posting “lol”….add to the discussion and explain how its coincidence that Rossini is in the same building as Rossi..no working website …phone not working…no real proof of “marble” business in the last 10 yrs….versus all of the bias being given to the honesty of Rossi….especially noting his questionable moves in the past…..blinders…

  • builditnow

    Having kept a close eye on McKubre and personally met him, there is no way that Mckubre would be involved in “any” scheme to steal from Rossi.

  • Roland

    In a another stunning turn of events in Florida Rossi’s Pizzeria received a rating of 3.5 from exactly 35 reviewers on TripAdvisor; yah just can’t make this stuff up.

    Wonder who the whiners that don’t like Rossi’s cooking are; please tell me it’s not you Kip…

  • LarryJ

    First time I have heard 2018.

    So far all I have heard is that the industrial quark reactor will go into operation this year. As the title of this thread indicates, the Brakes are off. That doesn’t sound like things will go slower. Many companies are involved in litigation but that doesn’t mean business as usual is affected.

  • LarryJ

    If it takes them many years to certify the domestic reactor then they will effectively abandon the next mega industry to other countries. Seems unlikely in my opinion given the US commanding lead at this time. Assuming of course that it works and the industrial market makes the public aware, the pressure to certify would be enormous.

    • HS61AF91

      No need to assume, it works. You’re right other countries can fill the gap. Should IH tie up US entry, awareness will come from abroad.

  • Guru Khalsa

    I am no lawyer but here is my take. If IH shared Rossi’s IP with Rossi’s competitors IH would be in violation of the agreement. If however IH was simply making improvements on the technology by enlisting scientists they had an agreement with, and the IP would remain in house so to speak then they would be in their rights according to the agreement and could protect their improvements by filing a patent.

    If Rossi withheld information that could help IH in the sale of Ecat related technology then Rossi would be in violation of the agreement. Since the $89 million was never paid IH is in violation of the agreement, but maybe so is Rossi. I don’t think Rossi has shared the Ecatx technology and maybe that is what this is really about. Possibly the Ecatx is such an improvement that Rossi does’t feel it is part of the agreement and IH disagrees.

    • Guru Khalsa

      Meanwhile NextBigFuture posts this story: ‘Rossi 1 Megawatt Energy Catalyzer is a failure after 3 years of testing by Industrial Heat’.

      http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/rossi-1-megawatt-energy-catalyzer-is.html

      • This seems to confirm that the establishment wants to keep the lid firmly on this for the time being – the article is straight out of the Gary Wright playbook. The final sentence, ‘In late 2015, Industrial Heat is expanding its operations into a 20,000-square-foot lab space in Cary, North Carolina’ indicates that parts of the article have been warmed over from an earlier one.

        Anyone know anything about the author, Brian Wang, or ownership of NextBigFuture?

        Strange that Industrial Heat – set up specifically to handle Rossi’s e-cat – should choose to expand into large new premises, when they can find no evidence that e-cats perform as Rossi claims.

        • TOUSSAINT francois

          Yes this article biased , I have erased NEXT BIG FUTUR from my favorits !

          • kdk

            You can still visit it, watch it to see how they spin it and why, and apply that lens elsewhere.

        • Omega Z

          In Mats interview with Fabiani who was on IH’s Payroll/Employee, November 25, 2015. Nine months into the test and all was well.

          “Until now the test is in line with the result that we expected.”

          I agree, this all seems to be aimed at delaying the technology, or possibly Darden can’t come up with the full $89 million.

          If this should be a delaying tactic and I were Rossi, I would set up a MAD system. Massive, Assured, Deployment. I would make arrangements with multiple **parties to manufacture and market on a very large scale. No up front or Territorial license fee. Only a $1 royalty per 10KW E-cat system or portion there of and a 50 cent royalty fee added to each 2 year recharge.

          This also ends the claims of greed. No reasonable person would see these minimal royalty fees as greedy.
          ————————————————————————
          Note in Rossi/IH license arrangement. 100 Million dollars plus a 5% royalty of net manufacture sales. The Royalties were capped at 1 Billion$.

          The minimal fees listed above would far exceed what he would receive from Industrial heat whom would have 50% of the world market.

          **GE, Siemens, B&W, No regions left behind- India, China, M.east. etc, etc,
          Massive

        • Michael W Wolf

          They didn’t say ecats and they didn’t say “perform” they said as Rossi claims. We are dealing with some serious lawyer speak in all IH’s statements.

          • “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

            With respect, your comment seems to be nit picking in the extreme.

    • Omega Z

      Industrial heats own people have worked on the E-cat X and the Quark.
      It is also included with the Industrial heat License to manufacture and sell.
      It is probable that they either couldn’t come up with $89 million in cash or are part of an effort to stop/delay Rossi’s work. I have mentioned the delay possibility before as IH and friends have fossil energy assets they would like to dispose of, but only after recovering the losses in value..

      • Michael W Wolf

        IH and friends have fossil energy assets? wow, isn’t that a conflict of interest?

        • Omega Z

          Most investment funds include a fair share of energy stocks. Having held these stocks on the slide down, they would strongly prefer to wait until some recovery took place before dumping them.

          Just keep in mind, any new investments are primarily paid for by selling shares in an exisiting investment to be invested in the new. Selling energy stocks while down means that much less to invest in LENR.

          One could argue that the losses would be more then offset by the ultimate gains in LENR. It is high risk unless you have a crystal ball and know who will prevail and who will fail. There is no such guarantee.

    • Mike Ivanov

      They all snakes, that it 🙂

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “If IH shared Rossi’s IP with Rossi’s competitors IH would be in violation of the agreement.”

      I see in section 16.4 of the License Agreement that Rossi/LC have an
      obligation to maintain confidentiality of E-Cat IP trade secrets, but I
      see no reciprocal obligation on IH. Paragraph 101 of the Complaint
      doesn’t claim that IH was in violation of any particular aspect of the
      License Agreement, rather it claims that in becoming an exclusive
      licensee that IH assumed a fiduciary duty to Rossi/LC.

      We’ll see what IH claims and how the court decides.

      • Guru Khalsa

        Well there is the section 15.2 Intentionally Omitted.

        • Brent Buckner

          I don’t believe section 15.2 is something that’s being held back, I believe that the signed document actually has “15.2 Intentionally Omitted” just as many documents with blank pages have “This page is intentionally left blank”.

          • Guru Khalsa

            So explain section 3.2 c wherein if the Rossi IP infringes on a 3rd party IP the Company pays Rossi 1 billion but otherwise the Company only pays Rossi $89 million.

          • Brent Buckner

            I suggest that you re-read the section. As I read it:
            If IH finds that Rossi’s IP infringes on a third party then instead of paying $89 million (and no royalty fee) IH may choose to pay $44.5 million plus a 5% royalty fee (the royalty fee being capped at a maximum payment of $1 Billion).

          • Guru Khalsa

            I read it as a document granting license and sublicensees to the company for $100,500,000. I don’t see the part about transfering ownership of the IP. Obviously the IP must be transfered to the Company for it to manufacture and sell the Ecats, but I don’t see where it says ownership of the IP is transferred.

          • Brent Buckner

            It doesn’t say that *ownership* of the IP is transferred (except to my reading possibly section 10 on the assignment of the patents, but I’m told that bit is not an ownership transfer). Rather, it says that after the $10 million payment (which Rossi/LC state they received) that Rossi/LC will deliver the E-Cat IP to IH (see section 3.2(b)).

          • Guru Khalsa

            But if the Company doesn’t have ownership of the IP how can it divulge the Rossi IP to Rossi’s competitors?

          • Brent Buckner

            The question is whether or not IH had a duty to maintain confidentiality of E-Cat IP trade secrets. The Complaint asserts that IH had a fiduciary duty to do so; I expect that IH will contest that.

            You and I might have an agreement whereby I have to tell you something that I am keeping secret from others. Our agreement may not include a provision that you have to keep it secret too.

          • Guru Khalsa

            If JK Rowling lends me her next book to read before it is published , am I legally allowed to publish it for a profit. I don’t know about that.

          • Brent Buckner

            No, because of copyright. Trade secrets are a different animal.

            I was very surprised to read the License Agreement and see Section 16.4 with no reciprocal obligation on IH.

            Similarly, see Martin Tornberg’s comment on just how flawed this License Agreement appears: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4241

          • SG

            Yes, Mr. Rossi/Leonardo could have had a tighter contract. Bear in mind that in the heat of a contract negotiation, there is give and take on both sides. No side ever gets everything they want, assuming that each is well-represented. Entering into any kind of contract carries with it risks that the other side is not going to behave in good faith. And Mr. Rossi probably really needed the money after the Greek fiasco, and so was maybe willing to make some concessions here and there.

            This still doesn’t excuse, in my mind, IH’s behavior, nor do I think IH is necessarily going to win this one in court.

  • Sanjeev

    Confirmations and solidity in lenrland are a very rare thing.

  • Mike Ivanov

    Probably some people will try to secure a shiny new world-saving business, because if e-cat if true, all these scam CO2 emission money will go away. So lets tax people for heating of Earth!

  • Charles

    They are all [ :< (|) ]s. Note the low-brows.

  • timycelyn

    That’s the sum that has already been paid over as per Rossi’s lawyers court submission

  • timycelyn

    Haven’t seen any yet….

  • artefact

    He said maybe 2016. But could be also 2017. That was before saying the apperance on the market will be accelerated.
    He never said 2018.

    • HS61AF91

      “Full Speed Ahead and Damn the HI Torpedoes,” …
      “Over The Top, Boys,” “Praise The Lord and Pass e-Cat’s Ammunition,”

  • artefact

    Sifferkoll:

    “Rossi vs. Snakes – A Superior man vs. Inferior People – An Athlete vs. Envy & Hate!”

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/rossi-vs-snakes-a-superior-man-vs-inferior-people-an-athlete-vs-envy-hate/

  • Michael W Wolf

    Hmm, all of a sudden the left wing anti capitalists side with the evil capitalists. I am a capitalist and side with Rossi on this one. But for the life of me I can’t figure out why they believe who they otherwise call lying snakes. Could it be their hatred for Rossi is so substantial that they switched their political loyalties?

    • clovis ray

      HI, Mike, W’ll I tell ya.you learn in this game, that trust but verify , everything, and its just the crony capitalist, that i dis like, they take more and more as long as you let them, we Americans are tired of the thieves stealing from our people,

  • Alan DeAngelis
  • Jacques

    I am amazed at how quickly the wholesale desertion of Rossi by posters here has occurred following these developments. I’m sure we’ll be back to business as usual when he announces the forthcoming E-Cat Y refrigeration unit.

    • Sanjeev

      How did you get that idea?

      On the contrary, I see more sympathy towards him and a lot of excitement here.
      Remember that both IH and Rossi plan to go ahead with whatever their plans are with full speed. The only thing that has happened is a desertion of Rossi by IH and vice versa.

      • Jacques

        I only go by the comments I see posted on the last few days’ threads, which indicate a degree of disillusionment among a higher of numbers of participants than is usual here. Perhaps I am overreacting, but to my eyes the proportion of disenchanted people has risen markedly.

        • US_Citizen71

          What you refer to are not posts by regular posters just the gaggle from ECN that pops in now and again when they get bored over there. The regular posters most negative comments seem to be we should wait and see until all data is in. Nice attempt at disinformation, by the way!

  • Sanjeev

    Not good to drag others into this without any evidence.

  • Winebuff67

    I think others will be first to market. Seems Rossi can’t play nice with others whether it’s his fault or not.

    • Ophelia Rump

      The others don’t play nice. Don’t blame the kid who brought all the marbles if he wants to leave with them.

      • Even without producing anything, just licensing the ‘quark’ technology at nominal cost and 1% royalties would net him more money that he could possibly ever spend, and also gain him the recognition he seems to want.

        Of course, the technology would be leaked or reverse engineered and replicated very quickly, but if he is selling ‘legitimate’ licenses to manufacture for modest cost, manufacturers wouldn’t bother to go to the rip-off merchants and risk prosecution for infringement of IP – at least not in the major ‘Western’ countries.

        • Eyedoc

          Yes, hopefully the ‘public proof’ is the entire point of this suit…… and it would be so beautiful if IH was along for the ride (but sadly AR sounds too PO’d for that possiblity)

    • Buck

      In what world is it appropriate to ignore Rossi’s desire to protect his life’s work from the apparent behavior of a thief who is schooled on smiling while picking your pocket?

  • Sanjeev

    Another strange thing is, by announcing that Rossi has nothing, IH has closed all doors to future funding. However, they still want to go ahead, perhaps by using “competitors” tech, and will now demo that tech to the potential investors/partners for money. If the investors or their hired experts are smart then they will surely sense that IH is just showing Rossi’s tech in a different package and they may not trust it, as IH itself says it does not work.
    I’ve no idea how they managed to take such a stupid decision. Probably they have other better plans else they shot themselves right when it was the prime time to make trillion$.

    • Ged

      That’s a very lucid point. IH basically ended itself at multiple levels with that statement (incompetence for not finding out before taking so much investor money, undermining all the previous sales pitches they have made, undermining all future sales pitches, undermining their Capital Hill demostration, etc).

      • NCkhawk

        When did IH had a Capital Hill demonstration? You guys need to get your information from sources other than Rossi. IH may have invested in Brillouin before they invested in Rossi. I believe that Brillouin had wet and dry LENR projects long before the IH investment.

        • psi2u2

          You need to stop putting words in Rossi’s mouth: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2015/11/prweb13098381.htm

          That is to say, if you want to be more credible, it would be a good idea if you shot a little less from the hip of your assumptions.

          • clovis ray

            not sure about that one, buddy, congress would not even have know what
            an reactor would look like, but it is reasonable to think they I/H knew that they had the goods already,

    • NCkhawk

      It doesn’t work that way Sanjeev. I’m guessing that IH has been disclosing their distrust of Rossi to their money partners all along.

      • Sanjeev

        And still getting millions in funding?

  • Sanjeev
    • LuFong

      This is a plausible hypothesis based upon the conjecture that Darden/Vaughn’s greed have led them to steal Rossi’s IP and not pay the $89M. But given Darden/Vaughn had the Rossi IP and future Rossi IP and over half the world’s market, $89M is a relatively paltry sum (for billion $ investment funds) and it’s difficult to believe that what appears to be an otherwise credible organization with commendable goals would try to do this kind of thing.

      To me the critical element here now is the 1MW plant test. The results are evidently completely positive but we don’t know this for sure. Darden/Vaughn must show conclusively that Rossi somehow has manipulated the results. Nothing else really matters here. It will not be enough to cast doubt on the methods used or to suggest something may have been done. If IH cannot do this then their claim is baseless and they owe Rossi the $89M (plus more), IMO.

      • Reading this particular set of runes is difficult, but IH’s expansion from a desk in a corner of Cherokee’s office to a large factory premises last year, their acquisition of energy related domains, and their attempts to patent LENR related systems seem to rule out their counter claim. If the ‘ERV’ has done his job, his report will put the cap on it.

        As many others have pointed out, IH seem to have shot themselves through the foot by accepting outside investment for a technology they now claim they can’t replicate, despite several statements to the contrary that are on record, and of course they would have known that this would be the price for failing to give Rossi the agreed final sum.

        That seems to leave only two possibilities: (1) Rossi hasn’t handed over whatever IP he was supposed to transfer to IH under the terms of agreement, or (2) they’re playing some other game now, either in response to external pressure, or because they need delay for their own purposes.

        You pays yer money…

        • LuFong

          Well now that Rossi has the the E-Cat Quark/X I can see Rossi wanting to back out of this and IH probably has done things to enable Rossi to maybe wiggle out of the license agreement. But I think Rossi has turned over everything since I believe they fueled all the tests.

          Speaking of runes, what do you make of the Brillouin connection? Rumor (because I haven’t seen anything official) is that IH has invested in Brillouin. Robert Godes has commented (once) on this blog saying essentially Rossi’s technology is not commercial ready. And Rossi unloaded on IH and Brillouin accusing them of stealing Rossi’s E-Cat (‘Copy-Cat’). Perhaps Robert Godes is influencing IH here? I can come up with numerous nefarious possibilities but this would fall into your (2) I think.

          • It does seem fairly obvious that IH has been investing in competing groups such as Brillouin, presumably in order to both get a stake in their technology, and to acquire expertise and research facilities (they won’t have anything relevant of their own). Rossi’s accusation that a recent demonstration by Brillouin used something similar to e-cat tech seems to confirm their involvement. There is also the question of who built the pilot plant reactors, and where.

            More data points required, before we all burn out our brains speculating on seriously incomplete information!

        • Omega Z

          ->”or because they need delay for their own purposes.”
          Rossi says things can move forward faster now. IH was a brake. That easily translates, they were holding things back or delaying progress.

          • Someone has said that Cherokee are heavily invested in fossil energy. If that’s the case the conflict of interest is obvious.

      • clovis ray

        Hi,Lu fong.
        i agree with most of what you said, only Dr.R, does not want the 89 mill
        that contract was busted, when they didn’t pay, the stealing of his design is a whole other matter.

    • aryth

      I doubt that the plan was to defraud Rossi from beginning. IH, after getting into this, should have been set to developing technology as fast as extensive as possible, but likely they found Rossi too hard to work with, to make him align with their goals and business practices, and/or to give control, and so they just discounted him as a partner at some point… Also, I find it hard to believe they were not prepared at all for the Rossi’s (very natural) reaction, especially given his history… which means that their reaction that they could not replicate (yes, “substantiate”) Rossi’s claims is probably thought through response… meaning that they probably could not do it, i.e., Rossi likely did not share the whole IP, or IP related to hot cats (which were the ones producing COP>6 in the tests, I think)

    • Mats002

      See the post below the article how Thomas Clarke change his mind from negative to plausible. Is it the same TC?

      Thomas: if you follow ECW, please expand your thoughts.

      • Sanjeev

        I’d not believe a single word of whatever TC writes, positive or negative. He is a known pathoskeptic. If this is not TC, still it has no weight.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    At the moment I believe Mr. Rossi because I.H.’s actions don’t equate with the e-cat invention not performing (just as Mr. Rossi has pointed out in making his case). Aside from that, why would I.H. (or
    anyone with half a brain) prolong the 1 MW reactor tests for almost a year if the reactor wasn’t performing? That’s just plain nuts!

    The more information that’s out there the better for Mr. Rossi’s case. He has the truth on his side (I think) and it’s best the truth get out there sooner rather than later.

    If Mr. Rossi provided MFMP a bit of information (only information) to help their independent replication
    activity succeed in a few weeks (if not sooner), this would dramatically increase world interest in bringing about justice to resolve this conflict quickly and honestly. It would, in other words, help ensure that Mr.
    Rossi triumphs quickly and delivers his invention to humanity sooner rather than later.

    This invention will transform the world. It can’t be swept under the carpet. It must not be unduly delayed.

    It would also help a lot to have the 1 MW test results released to the world asap. Moreover, it would be very useful if Mr. Rossi cleared up any possible misconceptions about the nature and location of
    the test facility.

    • Mats002

      Agree, but the world transformation will take decades – remember how long it took to replace all horses with cars.

      Disruptive? Well yes but not near instantly. Release it now!

      • Brent Buckner

        The first cars weren’t as good as horses on many dimensions – not so respective of the claimed performance of the 1MW reactor versus its substitutes. Replacement timeframes may be different.

        • Sanjeev

          Horses are still better. They are all terrain vehicles with a good amount of AI and self driving/collision avoidance capabilities. The fuel is environment friendly non polluting grass. Some essentials are missing such as built in horn and lights, but that’s minor compared to the natural leather seat and voice activated breaks.

          • Fibber McGourlick

            How did my serious post degenerate into a discussion of horses? In any case this is 2016, not 1902.

          • Sanjeev

            Your post is very good actually. Thanks.

          • Fibber McGourlick

            Well okay. Anyway, that bit of horse discussion was interesting and intelligent.

          • Mats002

            Yes, thanks Fibber!

          • NT

            Yes, I like my horse too!

          • Omega Z

            ->”The fuel is environment friendly non polluting grass.”
            There are greenies that would profusely disagree with that.

      • Sanjeev

        Cars may have replaced horses, but not bullocks and donkeys, that are still being used as main means of transportation in India and Africa and third world.
        They do enjoy mobile phones with 3G internet while riding them to work Btw.

      • IanMac

        The last disruptive technology took 9 years from commercial availability to 90% market penetration.

        Whats that you ask – the camera in the mobile phone!

        Each new disruptive technology is quicker this one will take 7 years. The only problem I have now is spotting the start, which is the first commercial product – was it the 250 day test piece?

        • Mats002

          If it really produced fish food for sale then yes.

          • NT

            Apple did a pretty fast job with the iPhone revolution. I expect once the home cat+ is in the marketplace a similar saturation time frame will take place – I hope…

    • Gerard McEk

      I very much agree with your words Fibber, the questions is under which conditions MFMP would agee doing this and would AR agree with that?

      • Alan Smith

        AR doen’t feel the need for more replications. The bar for truth and accuracy would be set too high for a didtant court to accept them. He claims to have proof and good witnesses to the fact that IH independently replicated the ECat based on his information and that IH showed other investors Ecats they claimed to have built themselves and that they worked.
        So no fears that MFMP or anyone else will be required to step up yet.

        • Omega Z

          It appears that it was Industrial heats employees that built/assembled the 1MW plant from Fulvio Fabiani’s interview with Mats L. And likely, Rossi’s primary contribution was the filling of the Fuel charge. Remember, Fulvio Fabiani is also on Industrial heats payroll.

          • At the time the original 1MW plant was assembled, Industrial Heat was a notional company – a shell within Cherokee Investment Fund for attracting and managing investment funds, and physically, probably a desk and computer in a corner of Cherokee’s offices somewhere. It’s unlikely they had any suitable engineering facilities. This means they either acquired an engineering company, subbed the work out to one, or used the facilities of another of their LENR teams, perhaps Brillouin.

            Whichever it is will obviously have full knowledge of the LT technology, apart perhaps from the exact composition of the ‘fuel’. Even so, what’s the betting that samples were obtained and analysed. The same might apply to the later 1MW reactors, and possibly to ecat X, if the same facility was used to produce the prototypes for this.

            So Cherokee probably have most if not all the information they need to replicate Rossi, and so saw no need to give him his $89M. Rossi’s reaction must have been a bit of a surprise.

  • A couple of weeks ago I would have probably suggested that this might not be a good idea because it could compromise IH/Rossi’s plans to stay low key until they were ready to go to market – but for obvious reasons I now fully agree. It’s time to use any opportunity that presents itself to increase public awareness that cold fusion is a valid solution to our energy needs.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Most of your comment seems reasonable to me Bob. Rossi is now under oath and subject to perjury. With all of those great points you’ve made, I still will side with Rossi and see if he can prove it to the jury.

  • Eyedoc

    See my comment above……..this may be all to get it out public ( I can wish, can’t I ??)

  • jousterusa

    That;s a good question, Ray. I think Brad Pitt is a pretty legitimate guy who would be pretty disappointed if he found out the technology he has put a million dollars behind is in the process of being stolen from the inventor and exploited illegally on several continents.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Then why do they contend the contract still stands?
    Then why do they patent the technology?
    They why do they say that there will be no delay in product going to market?

    By making this defense for them you at the same time making a case for them being false.

    • cashmemorz

      Because the actual scenario, at least as I interpret it, is the way that IH uses the word “unsubstantiated”. What IH means by this term goes back to the process that IH has set in motion to make the validation “bullet-proof”. To do this, as I have put it together, is that the E-Cat process in ALL its details has been given to a third, totally independent party to validate. So totally independent that IH cannot even tell AR what IH is doing in this regard. So AR is totally ignorant about this activity. Now, since the third party testing for validation purposes has not been finished as yet, then IH can say that the E-Cat test has not been substantiated and is only waiting for this to be finished. Because IH is waiting for the results of this third party test, validation, IH is therefore saying that everyone has to listen only on the word of IH as to what is actually happening, because only IH knows what is going on in this regard. Then, also, this is why AR is acting the way he is(paranoid about why IH has not paid AR. AR is acting from lack of knowledge about why IH is acting the way they are. If AR knew he would just wait. Since AR doesn’t know, he sees IH as acting strangely or deviously. Further to this scenario, I expect that IH DOES have the $89m, only not in escrow in some bank just allocated for AR in house. This scenario, to me, ties up all loose ends in a more congenial manner than all of the mean spirited, “get Rossi” views floating around this blog.

  • cashmemorz

    Andrea Rossi maybe picked that particular building because it already had “his” name on it to save making a sign. And a false positive clue for anyone searching for his actual location of the E-Cat.

  • Alex Fenrick

    An investment advertisement? Is the the comment section of TMZ or something?? Moderators…I believe this one slipped by you…this needs to be deleted and those email addresses added to blacklists.

  • Omega Z

    It appears the only people skeptics will accept as independent is those who believe LENR is impossible. And thus wont even attempt to replicate the E-cat. LENR is a total waste of time.

    So Whats up with Industrial Heat. They know the E-cat works at high COP. The statement of unsubstantiated is BS. They had their people in that container for a year. They would have pulled the plug long before if it was not performing as intended. Seriously, Who would even invest in a 1MW pilot plant without knowing for a fact that a single 10KW reactor produced excess heat.

    This unsubstantiated BS is all about delaying the technology. Merely listen to people like Al Gore who is in the loop and Bill Gates who is investing in LENR. They indicate maybe in 15 years. That is not a guess. It is their agenda. Their timeline. They don’t want it before then as it doesn’t fit their grand design. They also don’t want it coming from a nobody. It has to come from their Ivory Towers.

    • This seems highly likely. Rossi is trying to break free of the corporate agenda by tying himself to another horse.

      Depending on who his new backers are, he may have put himself in physical danger by doing so. If he has none, history indicates that he will need to act very quickly and decisively, or be removed from the game one way or another.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Omega that is such an erroneous statement that I don’t think anyone here would agree with…skeptic or not. Intelligent skeptics correctly accept INDEPENDENT research…not research carried out by an individual who is associated with the project creator. That is 100% a conflict of interest for skeptics and even in a legal realm. I think you must be misunderstanding the connection Rossi has to the tester and how that is an absolute conflict of interest. Even supporters of Rossi on here are agreeing it was not the best choice. Some are trying distraction methods by saying that IH knew there was a connection too, but that is incidental. It doesn’t matter for Rossi’s case if they knew or not….either way it invalidates the testing and harms Rossi’s reputation. Without INDEPENDENT analysis….we have zero substantiation of claim…plain and simple.

  • Voted up, mostly for (2). I have droned on about this repeatedly but with very little response. People don’t want rain on their parade I guess.

    However (on the brighter side, and as I’ve also said) gaining safety certification for a small device that makes electricity by consuming hydrogen and lithium (‘quark’) is likely to be far easier than for a large industrial boiler powered by novel reactors. It might even be possible to get one through on fuel cell codes, but otherwise a new Standard will have to be commissioned from BSI or DIN (assuming development moves outside of the US to avoid debris from the court case). Probably best not to mention putting units together to make a plant of any required size at this stage.

  • Rogerborg

    “it already certified in europe”

    To what standard? By whom? For what purpose?

  • Frank Acland

    SGS is the certifying agency he used.