Mats Lewan's Take on the Rossi/IH Affair (Update: Another Possible Scenario Considered)

UPDATE (April 12, 2016)

Mats has posted another article, this time looking as another hypothesis in the dispute between Andrea Rossi and Industrial heat. This time he examines the possibility that the results of 1MW plant test on the E-Cat were not satisfactory — either there was a low COP, or Industrial Heat found flaws in the test, and/or IH did not want to pay Rossi the $89 million until he had transferred to them the know-how of how to achieve high E-Cat performance (IH has said that they have not been able to “substantiate” Andrea Rossi’s claims)

The article is here: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

April 9, 2016

Mats Lewan has posted an new article on his An Impossible Invention blog in which he lays out his hypothesis about what he thinks has taken place in the Leonardo/Industrial Heat affair. Here’s the link to the article.

https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/09/heres-my-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/

Mats says this is just his opinion on analyzing the facts at his disposal, and he doesn’t claim any special inside information here. His basic hypothesis is that fairly soon after Rossi and Cherokee made the deal, Rossi did not like how things were going, and he prepared well ahead of time to file a lawsuit on the exact day when the agreed-upon $89 million was due after the conclusion of the 1 MW test.

Mats believes that Rossi probably wants to get out of the relationship, and get back E-Cat manufacturing rights for the whole world, and this non-payment gives him the justification to do so.

Mats does concede that he could be wrong, and that perhaps the non-payment comes down to the fact that IH simply could not come up with the $89.

We still have to hear IH’s defense. Their press release was very vague, simply mentioning that they could not “substantiate” Rossi’s claims, and that Rossi had “repeatedly breached” unspecified license agreements. These points will probably be key points in their defense.

At some point we should learn more about the IH defense, but Mats Lewan thinks this could all take years to be resolved.

  • Thomas Baccei

    By far the simplest explanation is that Rossi’s ecat never worked. IH simply waited him out and at the end never paid him a dime. All the claims of positive results came from Rossi. He’s most likely fairly insane, and thrives on the attention we all pay him. The best thing the LENR community could do right now would be to completely ignore him, thus taking away his incentive for continuing the drama. Sorry, Mats but there has never been a shred of concrete evidence for anything but this interpretation.

    • pg

      Hi Thomas, thank you for the enlightening comment. Why didn’t we think about it?

    • cashmemorz

      I very much doubt IH would promise $89m if they weren’t ready to pay.
      They must have it allocated in house rather than in a bank “in escrow”.
      IH is probably just waiting for the finalization of the test by third
      parties to substantiate what seems to be the function of the E-Cat.
      Simplest explanations are usually the closest to the truth. See my reiteration of this point above

  • Thomas Baccei

    By far the simplest explanation is that Rossi’s ecat never worked. IH simply waited him out and at the end never paid him a dime. All the claims of positive results came from Rossi. He’s most likely fairly insane, and thrives on the attention we all pay him. The best thing the LENR community could do right now would be to completely ignore him, thus taking away his incentive for continuing the drama. Sorry, Mats but there has never been a shred of concrete evidence for anything but this interpretation.

    • Göran Jansson

      YOU, Thomas, have not seen”a shred of concrete evidense”. That sounds like you havn’t informed yourselves of all pertinent data the last five years. Or have you?

    • pg

      Hi Thomas, thank you for the enlightening comment. Why didn’t we think about it?

    • Alex Fenrick

      I have to agree with Thomas. I believe they waited out the full year hoping he might actually succeed in his claim….but this never happened. Most likely IH said “sorry…no proof…no payment”..and now Rossi is in damage control mode. Rossi wasting what could easily be a few years of delay in court is pretty much the worst possible path he could take right now. If he would just allow his devices to actually be tested by someone who is independent to this situation in an honest fashion, he would have VC companies knocking down his door with alot more than $98 million. A good magician always keeps his audience looking at the wrong hand……

    • cashmemorz

      I very much doubt IH would promise $89m if they weren’t ready to pay.
      They must have it allocated in house rather than in a bank “in escrow”.
      IH is probably just waiting for the finalization of the test by third
      parties to substantiate what seems to be the function of the E-Cat.
      Simplest explanations are usually the closest to the truth. See my reiteration of this point above

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Yesterday I was optimistic, but today I have been having darker thoughts in regards to all this. My main problem is, it’s always “Rossi and his merry pals”. Why exactly would the UK customer have the same lawyer as Rossi, who also just happens to be the President of Leonardo Corp?

    So, you ask, why would Rossi sue when he would have to prove the technology and thus surely lose? Perhaps he’s playing ‘Rossian roulette’, counting on never having to go to court. IH, being duped by Rossi in this scenario, would also have committed fraud against Woodford (though perhaps unknowingly) and would much rather settle than let this truth come out.

    In the “Rossi is fraudster” scenario, it has to be said that IH have been terribly incompetent in every way.

    • LuFong

      Also interesting is that Rossi’s test customer, evidently an important and significant businessman in the UK, happened to have the same lawyer as Rossi and the lawyer is in Miami!

      • Teemu Soilamo

        What do you mean, ‘also’? That’s exactly what I said.

        • etburg

          I believe Mats is right. Logically, if you thought you had even 95% of the answer (and Rossi indicates they now have everything) could make deals with others at much lower cost to get you the rest of the way, and saw a path to locking up patents for yourself, and the alternative was spending 89 million just to have the right to resell in certain markets, I can see how that wouldn’t be a hard decision for some people to make. It would also explain IH’s silence on the year long test throughout and the apparent gap between what Rossi seemed to be doing and them. He communicated daily and they never really mentioned it, or interestingly, moved to make him stop talking… They didn’t’ really want the test, they’d already gotten what they wanted and had moved on. A repeat of the Defkalion debacle. Abd, yes, raising 89 million in addition to capital for other things they wanted to do may have proved too much of a challenge – or people wanting more for their money such as owning the whole kit and caboodle.
          I would also agree that they have probably underestimated Rossi and his tenacity. On the other hand, they have much deeper pockets and could just string this out and exhaust his funds unless he manages to actually start selling ecats through other channels. On the one hand, we could be on for a few years of waiting and sifting through court documents, on the other hand, both sides could try to move forward to try to get something out there to grab marjet share. That certainly seems to be Rossi is intent. In addition to the early computer lawsuits there were the Microsoft Apple lawsuits over the graphic interface (stolen from Xerox originally), the early wars between Edison and Westinghouse-Tesla over delivering current. Balzac said, “Behind every great fortune is a great crime”. I hope that proves to be wrong in this case and Rossi is triumphant. Of course, a voice in me chimes in once in a while that this could all be a scam by Rossi, but given the given the record now, stated in court documents of 12 million in payments already, IH agreeing to pay 89 million on delivery of year long test results, Woodward’s large investment, IH running around buying up other patents and filing their own, does it really make sense that Rossi was unable to prove his claims to them over the past three years as they claim? The next few years will be interesting. I am actualkymore inclined to think that lawsuits starting up is evidence there is something big here than not.

        • Snobben

          Hello Mats Lewan, I have followed developments regarding the E-cat since it was shown on the news in Swedish telivision five years ago. Since then I have followed your reporting and thought that you made a good and important job, and i think you still do. My hopes regarding the functioning of the E-Cat has not decreased due to the conflict between IH and Andrea Rossi. But I think now that there are no longer any reason for Rossi to not finally prove to the world that the E-Cat really works. If Rossi has not done so within two months from now, he loses all credibility. There are no longer any agreement or other excuses to blame, I give Rossi two months

          • There’s a hierarchy of truthiness that I think is important to acknowledge here.

            Rossi Says and speculation bring up there rear.
            We can trust that company press releases at least reliably convey what the company wants to say.
            Journalistic articles should contain reliable facts and logical inferences if the reporter is good (and I think we can all agree that Mats is good).

            And then there’s a whole other level: assertions made in legal documents. These carry much extra weight because there are costs associated with them. Direct monetary costs for filing a lawsuit and retaining attorneys. Resource costs in the preparation time required (18 volumes!). Opportunity costs in the R&D that doesn’t get done and any other delays in getting to market. Potential personal cost of perjury or fraud litigation, perhaps resulting in both civil damages and jail time if the information is fabricated.

            So it is no small thing for Rossi to file this lawsuit, claim an average COP above 50 and allege misconduct on the part of Industrial Heat. It’s not just ‘taking his side’ in a war of words to acknowledge the strength of this info relative to all the other innuendo and speculation.

            Either the COP is above 50 and Rossi should have been paid, or it’s not and he has committed career murder-suicide, taking Penon and Levi with him.

            Right now Rossi is the one being open, detailed and seeming to act rationally. Industrial Heat’s behavior on the other hand is confusing and looks slimy as hell. I’m experiencing some cognitive dissonance coming to terms with that behavior. I didn’t expect it at all from them. It’s stupid and short-sighted. So the ball is in Industrial Heat’s corner. When they submit their own legal claims then we can maybe start to get to the bottom of this.

            One thing is concrete for me. Rossi doesn’t put the COP 50 in the lawsuit nor be in a rush to publish the full report if he didn’t believe it to be true. If fabricated that course of action would be worse than totally ineffective, exposing him to many bad things.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            I don’t think he claimed yearly average COP of 50. He said that at times the COP was more than 50. The yearly average is probably less. Peter Gluck’s guess was 21.

          • The lawsuit claims average COP over 50. I’ll see if I can find the exact clause. It’s pretty clear.

          • artefact

            Yes. And it was over 60 for some time.

          • The “by all accounts” piece intrigues me. Makes me think Rossi, Penon and IH (Fabiani?) compared notes and all agreed COP 50+.

          • That would be unfortunate, if provable.

          • I didn’t mean in a ‘made it up’ kind of way. I meant they all agreed the data said the same thing… and that IH is include in the ‘all.’

          • Trouble is, to the legal eagles, any cross-communications would be ‘collusion’ – if that was useful to their case.

          • Ged

            Except in this case IH has to pay if the COP is above 6 (or 2.5, actually). So if IH’s people agreed it was, then IH needs to pay, and their legal defense is bust.

          • Ged

            That is how I interpreted that line too when I first saw it.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Ok, I remembered wrong and stand corrected. All the better.

          • SG

            Be aware that “during the same period” can have two interpretations. 1) That COP was substantially greater than 50 during the entire same period (i.e., the entire 350 days), or 2) That COP was substantially greater than 50 at times during the same period. I can read it either way. So we really need the ERV to confirm the meaning.

          • I just can’t agree with that.

            “…amount of energy produced…during the… Test… was… greater than 50 times… consumed… during the same period.”

            The period is clearly the entire test/year. If they used this language to say that at some *moments* during the test they saw 50x energy spikes then that would be seriously misleading. Energy spikes are meaningless in the context of the report validation — even meaningless overall.

            If it turns out you are right, then that would be a serious knock against this claim, indicating that Rossi/Penon were playing word games. But stranger things have happened wrt Rossi, so I don’t dismiss your observation outright.

          • Obvious

            The Leonardo press release states:

            “The results of Dr. Penon’s test was consistent with the measurements
            taken by the representatives of Leonardo Corporation and Industrial Heat
            respectively during the course of the test” said inventor Andrea Rossi.

          • kdk

            And yet here we stand in the middle of an enormous data leak showing the lengths that some people will go to in order to keep and get more money. That factors in with Occam’s Razor to fit ALL the data, or the bigger picture, when you have scenarios like this all over with shady business practices.

          • If Wang’s hit piece is leading the way, press coverage will be negative, probably libelous (Wang skirts the edges).

            Rossi appears to have been preparing to open a court case for a long time, but it seems to have caught Darden et al. off balance. IH’s initial rebuttal seems ill-prepared and full of holes, but the case they present to the court is likely to be much better thought through.

            As to his motive (speculation mode full on) I think the best guess must be that Rossi suspected that the final payment wouldn’t be forthcoming (that might be down to him, or IH or both parties) and has initiated the case so that his agreement with IH is terminated and he can claim sole rights to all e-cat IP (per his recent pronouncement on JoNP) AND in order to gain publicity for his work, and public proof of its reality, through a demonstration to the court.

          • cashmemorz

            My take in line with what LENR G stated is as follows. The litigation started by AR is based on not being paid th $89m by IH. The reason I see for non payment is that IH has not substantiated the workings of the E-CAT. Not substantiated because the third partie(s) doing the test to substantiate is not yet finished. IH I feel does have the $89m allocated in house for payment to AR. IH cannot inform AR if the third party has done “substantiating ” to keep AR totally at arms length to the third parties doing the test. AR, uninformed is acting upon his lack of knowledge to think the worst of IH and so went to litigation.

          • Stephen

            I hope it’s something like that. I was saddened to think of the alternatives.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I was thinking, nothing IH says can be taken seriously. They can say anything, what they say under oath is what matters. Rossi is to be taken seriously as what he is saying is under oath and subject to perjury. It has a lot more weight and all should be pressuring IH not Rossi. We already know he was screwed out of the money and IH is basically playing word games with no legal ramifications at this point.

          • Ged

            Very good analysis summary.

          • But Rossi is not interested in proving anything to anybody. He’s stated a million times that only a product in the market matters and recently has said that he met with ABB to set up automated manufacturing and is moving quickly toward mass production.

            When he signed up with IH he though he had a partner who would help him get to market.

            If on the other hand he announced a new test and the referees were anything but impeccable scientists and completely independent (like from another planet independent) then it would just be another time wasting round of calorimetry inkblot tests.

            I would welcome him sending out E-Cat X’s to high profile Universities all at once when he feels he can.

            I will say that the clock is ticking. The 1 year test I always thought was a stupid unnecessary delay. Rossi did it for money and apparently IH didn’t even want to do it after they got the IP but seemed to be more of a stalling tactic from them so they could execute their alternate plans. Now there is nothing between Rossi and the market. If it takes more than say 6 months and there is no clarity from the lawsuit then it’ll look very bad.

          • Nothing except safety certification. Much easier for a small wafer that makes electricity by using up lithium and hydrogen like some kind of fuel cell, than for a cold fusion boiler, I would imagine.

      • Rossi wrote: “They wanted not to be exposed, though, therefore incorporated JM Products and made a plant for their production to make the test and appointed President their Attorney, who was also, as I said, my Attorney.”

        It could be that Rossi phrased it poorly above. Maybe the UK entity hired Rossi’s lawyer to be their lawyer for this project alone at the time the idea was being developed. He probably wasn’t the UK entity’s lawyer previously. Just my guess.

        As I said previously, I have zero problem with this shell company being created to hide the real enterprise and Rossi’s lawyer being the president. ESPECIALLY after IH dragged their feet for a year.

        I still think it likely that this power/heat was used in a manufacturing process of some kind in that building.

        BTW, I’m disappointed with many of the comments lately. So many people here are not being able to keep basic facts of this story straight. Cmon people! Less useless/erroneous speculation and more reading please!

  • Teemu Soilamo

    Yesterday I was optimistic, but today I have been having darker thoughts in regards to all this. My main problem is, it’s always “Rossi and his merry pals”. Why exactly would the UK customer have the same lawyer as Rossi, who also just happens to be the President of Leonardo Corp?

    So, you ask, why would Rossi sue when he would have to prove the technology and thus surely lose? Perhaps he’s playing ‘Rossian roulette’, counting on never having to go to court. IH, being duped by Rossi, would also have committed fraud against Woodford (though perhaps unknowingly) and would much rather settle than let the truth come to light

    In the “Rossi is a fraudster” scenario, it has to be said that IH have been terribly incompetent in every way for not seeing through his antics.

    But it’s just one hypothesis among many. Mat’s is not bad, either.

    • Guest

      To your 2nd paragraph – if a lawsuit was inevitable then it’s better to be on the attack then the defense.

      • Ged

        Only if you have a true and solid case. If you are on the attack using fabrication, that is perjury. If you’ve got nothing, the best thing to do is run and hide and get out of the jurisdiction you can be convicted within.

  • badger

    Someone not having $89 million on hand, while working with competitors in the field, is the simplest explanation for the events thus far.

    • cashmemorz

      I very much doubt IH would promise $89m if they weren’t ready to pay. They must have it allocated in house rather than in a bank “in escrow”. IH is probably just waiting for the finalization of the test by third parties to substantiate what seems to be the function of the E-Cat. Simplest explanations are usually the closest to the truth.

  • badger

    Someone not having $89 million on hand, while working with competitors in the field, is the simplest explanation for the events thus far.

    • cashmemorz

      I very much doubt IH would promise $89m if they weren’t ready to pay. They must have it allocated in house rather than in a bank “in escrow”. IH is probably just waiting for the finalization of the test by third parties to substantiate what seems to be the function of the E-Cat. Simplest explanations are usually the closest to the truth.

  • Sanjeev

    At least one point in this hypothesis is wrong. IH surely saw it coming, their public statement (worded by apco) shows this, where they urge all to not to believe anyone else other than IH itself.
    So both parties were ready and probably went through discussions/arguments. Rossi has said that there is a war coming, the fight will be great etc etc (from memory).

    • Buck

      Sanjeev,

      I believe Mats addressed this clearly . . . of course they (IH) saw the inflection point, the timing of the non-payment, coming. Presumably, after their effort to delay the 1-Year Test and Rossi’s successful effort to establish the test, they began to get the ERV periodic status reports of COP= +50. They, after a few months of the 1-Year Test, knew to within weeks if not days when the technical default would be triggered by their non-payment.

      The key is that they simply did not believe Rossi would behave as he eventually did . . . they underestimated Rossi’s ability to learn from his experience in Italy and with Defkalion and to pursue a highly effective, competitive path.

      I believe Mats’ hypothesis includes your concerns.

      • Sanjeev

        Well, its only a hypothesis, so I’m only nit picking.

        • Michael W Wolf

          That is the way I read your intent. I thought that too as a possibility. But I am still in Rossi’s corner, To the bitter or magnificent end.

    • cashmemorz

      This would be another way of viewing IH as the source of “all true facts” if IH indeed had third parties testing E-Cats. If the third party tests are not yet finished then there is no third party bullet-proof validation to “substantiate” E-Cat workings. Just accepting AR’s word (one party)is not “substantiation”

  • Sanjeev

    At least one point in this hypothesis is wrong. IH surely saw it coming, their public statement (worded by apco) shows this, where they urge all to not to believe anyone else other than IH itself.
    So both parties were ready and probably went through discussions/arguments. Rossi has said that there is a war coming, the fight will be great etc etc (from memory).

    • Pierre Beaulnes

      With their massively minimalist public statement, one can surely wonder if IH was ready for such a detailed case as presented by Rossi…

      • Sanjeev
        • Pierre Beaulnes

          Agree with you, IH did try to do some preventive DC with this March 10th statement. They should have known what was coming. This exactly why their latest massively minimalist statement came as such a surprise… May be the surprise was theirs…

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t know, many guilty people are better off saying as little as possible. You don’t see that from innocent people, generally. ” Your honor, I plead the fifth on the grounds that it may incriminate me” . It is not what innocent people say. And IH is not saying the 1mw reactor did not work. On the grounds that it may incriminate them? We will see.

    • Buck

      Sanjeev,

      I believe Mats addressed this clearly . . . of course they (IH) saw the inflection point, the timing of the non-payment, coming. Presumably, after their effort to delay the 1-Year Test and Rossi’s successful effort to establish the test, they began to get the ERV periodic status reports of COP= +50. They, after a few months of the 1-Year Test, knew to within weeks if not days when the technical default would be triggered by their non-payment.

      The key is that they simply did not believe Rossi would behave as he eventually did . . . they underestimated Rossi’s ability to learn from his experience in Italy and with Defkalion and to pursue a highly effective, competitive path. They tried to bluff Rossi . . . they tried to play chicken with Rossi. But Rossi simply chose to forge ahead with the intent to regroup given the circumstances.

      I believe Mats’ hypothesis includes your concerns.

      • Sanjeev

        Well, its only a hypothesis, so I’m only nit picking.

        • Michael W Wolf

          That is the way I read your intent. I thought that too as a possibility. But I am still in Rossi’s corner, To the bitter or magnificent end.

    • cashmemorz

      This would be another way of viewing IH as the source of “all true facts” if IH indeed had third parties testing E-Cats. If the third party tests are not yet finished then there is no third party bullet-proof validation to “substantiate” E-Cat workings. Just accepting AR’s word (one party)is not “substantiation” Both AR and IH, individually, feel they are in the right under this scenario. What is the fly in the ointment is that neither knows what the other knows. Finally to this point, is why IH is not paying the $89m until the third party has finished” substantiating” independently.

  • Guest

    I’m really disappointed in Mats’ new posting, as it clearly crosses the line into a one-sided support. I viewed Mats as one of the few independent, objective, truth-seekers in this entire saga.

    Who knows what the end story will be, and Mats’ hypothesis could very well be correct, but as a journalist I would have expected him to stay out of the game of one-sided propaganda/conjecture and instead focus on helping us all get to the objective truth.

    I’ve repeatedly asked him to use his investigative journalist skills to explore the true identity of the customer or get to objective facts on whether there was ever any real production being powered by the 1 year of heat. He has ignored these requests and simply falls back on telling us that he heard from other people that they were told something was being produced. Where is the journalism here?

    • sam

      Mats might have a bad headache.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Fabiani, IH’s lead engineer, confirmed Rossi’s claims. I think Mats can support Rossi with confidence, with first hand testimony and witness from IH people themselves If it turns out Fabiani and others lied to him, he will lose no credibility. But it will prove IH people were lying. But why would they?

      • Guest

        Actually, Fabiani contradicted Rossi’s claim in that interview on one essential topic.

        Fabiani says “I don’t have knowledge on the reaction because the formula is not my concern. When it is time, Rossi makes his mixtures according to his formulas, puts the charge in the cores and gives me the complete cores.” (from Mats’ blog)

        Rossi says “They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.” (from JONP)

        Fabiani, who according to Mats, is “Rossi’s closest technician and engineer since 2012” doesn’t know how to make the charges. (from Mats’ blog)

        We’re all focused on the 350 day test, but I don’t think this has anything to do with the test. I think this is all about the transfer of IP, know-how, and fuel recipe that was supposed to be transferred to IH immediately following the $10M payment. According to Fabiani’s interview, Rossi hasn’t showed them everything.

        • Ged

          But they did make Lugano’s charge. I took Rossi’s statement there to be about Lugano. There are too many devices running around to know exactly which one(s) are being talked about without a direct reference…

          • Guest

            But even with Lugano – Rossi is the one that put the charge in the reactor (which is what all the skeptics screamed about).

            I guess what I’m saying is that if Rossi really taught IH/Fabiani how to make the core charge for the Lugano device, why would Fabiani claim he doesn’t know how to do it a year later?

            I mean, it comes down to whether you believe Rossi would have taught them how to make the Lugano core charge, but then keep the charge for the 1MW unit secret? And even if he did, that’s also not ok per the contract – he has to teach them everything.

    • Ged

      Your last paragraph is sadly presumptuous. How do you know he isn’t? How do you know those sources aren’t due to his investigative journalism? It isn’t like you just say “I’m an investigative journalist!” and suddenly the secrets of the universe are open to you. It’s incredibly hard work, and it takes time. Time to track leads, to get information, to cut through misdirection, to find avenues to see behind secrecy and NDAs (and make sure you are doing so legally(!)), getting the confidence of your sources that they won’t be revealed or misquoted or otherwise open to reprisal. Seriously dude, you can’t just tell him “do this” and expect it to suddenly happen, nor do you know what he is doing behind the scenes.

      We’ll see. IH’s defense will reveal a lot more.

      • Guest

        Fair enough, but I do know that he responded directly to my request saying that he heard from people that were told by the customer that things were being produced, and that if IH didn’t object that was good enough for him.

        I actually think in this case hard sources of information (like tax returns or employment filings that would be required for JM Products) would be much more valuable than talking to people/getting their confidence, and likely easier/faster to get to.

        When he responded that because Rossi said that IH didn’t have a problem with the customer it was good enough for him, I interpreted that as “I’m not going to look into it”. But if he is looking into it behind the scenes, then I will certainly apologize if my comment hurt his feelings.

  • Mark S.

    Read the comments in Matt’s post because they make a better case for the Rossi-the-fraudster hypothesis than what anyone will read on this site. Yesterday i was on Rossi’s side until Thomas Clarke gave an overview of many things i forgot. In either case, time will tell but it is now not looking good at all, I don’t think there was anything real here but will check back in half a year or so to see.

    • Andrew

      Personally I read as much as I can, I’m sure many here do too. I just don’t agree with comments like

      “But IH will claim in court, and I bet they can prove it, that:
      a) the customer is a sham and is really working for Rossi
      b) Rossi obtained the favorable test results by fraud
      c) Rossi obtained the contract by fraud, which, by the way, invalidates the contract.
      d) The ecat does not work.”

      This is totally illogical. If this was the case don’t you think IH would have filed? Or is Rossi just turning himself in?

  • Mark S.

    Read the comments in Matt’s post because they make a better case for the Rossi-the-fraudster hypothesis than what anyone will read on this site. Yesterday i was on Rossi’s side until Thomas Clarke gave an overview of many things i forgot. In either case, time will tell but it is now not looking good at all, I don’t think there was anything real here but will check back in half a year or so to see.

    • Andrew

      Personally I read as much as I can, I’m sure many here do too. I just don’t agree with comments like

      “But IH will claim in court, and I bet they can prove it, that:
      a) the customer is a sham and is really working for Rossi
      b) Rossi obtained the favorable test results by fraud
      c) Rossi obtained the contract by fraud, which, by the way, invalidates the contract.
      d) The ecat does not work.”

      This is totally illogical. If this was the case don’t you think IH would have filed? Or is Rossi just turning himself in?

      • Alex Fenrick

        It’s actually quite logical. IH may very well have waited out the full year in hopes that Rossi would indeed prove successful…which probably did not happen. IH would be fools to pay him the remaining $89million if they gave him a full year and he did not produce satisfactory results. You may not believe those statements you posted to be true…but you sure must at very least consider them to be very valid possibilities at this point…..

        • Andrew

          Agreed, people need to keep an open mind to both ends of the spectrum. This is why I don’t agree with comments like that because they are very one sided. Rossi fraud, Rossi criminal, Rossi this, Rossi that. Never one possibility of IH being in the wrong.

    • I read Thomas Clarke’s post there and as usual it was completely unconvincing.

  • Sanjeev

    Mats writes : “IH then never intended to perform the stipulated one-year test ….”
    I don’t think this has a good basis, except Rossi’s own comment. In this Fortune interview Darden says
    http://fortune.com/2015/09/27/ceo-cherokee-investment-partners-low-energy-nuclear-reaction/

    “we want to crush all the tests. ”
    “I don’t want to say that cold fusion is real until we can absolutely prove it in ten different ways and then persuade our worst critics to join our camp.”
    ” We have sponsored tests and more research for Rossi’s work.”

    But in the same interview he says : We’ve been seeing the creation of isotopes and energy releases at relatively low temperatures—1,000 degrees centigrade, which could be a sign that fusion has occurred.

    This was in Sept 2015, so something went wrong after that. Probably they got it tested in 10 different ways and were not convinced, or were so much convinced that they decided they don’t need Rossi now.

    • pangoo

      I think the main problem here is the messy patent situation and the lack of understanding of the actual LENR process. It is new science and alot of the patents issued presumably will be able to be circumvented when a better understanding of the physics is achieved. This is a very a unstable situation.

      Industrial Heat probably understand this and that they could use LENR’s ambiguity to gain control of the field. Also could be the reason why they wanted to invest in multiple LENR inventors/companies.

      Who would want to be merely a licensee of the technology when you have an opportunity to be one of the main companies in control of the whole field? I mean we are talking about the future primary world energy source.

      I would love to know what happens if Randall Mills theory proves correct. He had very early patents refused on the basis that cold fusion is not real. If he turns out to be right the patents were refused in the wrong. Its just USPTO ignorance.

    • Stephen

      I have been wondering about this comment from Darden in Fortune about wanting to verify in 10 different ways too. In the original APCO statement didn’t it also say something about a having a third party performing the test before they acknowledge it? Is it these extra tests that IH “require” before they can substante the tests. Is this what Andrea Rossi also means about passing on his IP to third parties. Is he also OK with those extra tests or concerned that they are infact being performed by competitors? Are the third party tests additional or outside the original agreement between him and IH. And are IH adding these additional test requirements? Is this the sticking point I wonder? If so the 2 year testing may have passed. IH don’t want to call it until a third party evaluation is made, AR does not want to pass on skills of the art to those potential competitors. AR sees that IH have broken their original agreement.

      Didn’t someone with another LENR technology owned or licensed by IH mention he thought IH were questioning its readiness for production rather than its working status? Perhaps this was also about third party verification too.

      Regarding the ERV I get the impression IH were involved with AR with his selection from the very beginning.

      Andrea on his blog a day or so after receiving the report and being very happy with it once mentioned “sometimes it’s only when you think you one you loose”. Probably it was more about the F9 statement so we should be careful not to take it out of context. But it made a big impression on me in the context nevertheless. I think up to the end he hoped IH would come through especially if the results were so good. But it seems they were not prepared to release the ERV report maybe because of their wish to do third party testing with external testers. maybe because they didn’t want to pay, maybe because they think it didn’t Work. But given the former statements I do wonder about the initial case.

      • cashmemorz

        This would explain the “unsubstantiated” part that IH mentioned most recently. By “unsubstantiated” IH would mean “not fully tested by other-third parties” (my quotes for how I personally interpret “substantiate” in this context) that would be the only sticking point for IH before going ahead with production/sales. BUT for AR this wouild also be the sticking point since AR would have to give all technical details to that third party and AR seems very hesitant to anything like that.

      • Sanjeev

        If you take Darden’s words at face value then its very much possible that they got the IP tested by third parties or their own scientists/engineers. May be they found issues in it and decided to “re-evaluate” their portfolio.
        But then why did they spend $11.5M on it?

    • Gerald

      A cop of 50 you can prove in a day, no way you can fool technical people with this kind of energy enhancement. So Rossi lies or there is faul play about money. Myself I still believe that Rossi has it, the lawsuit will show us. If this kind of LERN is real the lawsuit will be dropped I guess.

    • Ged

      And September was past the half way point of the 1 year test, no way he would not have known if it was working or not at that point. So him saying all that, says that at least in the sense of “does it work or not” the E-cat was substantiated. But, you bring up very interesting and smart points about the use of the word by IH’s press release and the connection to Darden’s interview about testing it 10 different ways (I believe that was hyperbole, and not literally 10 different ways).

      Still, their contract was to pay after the 1 year test.

      Interestingly, having Rossi in a container for a whole year, limited by contract to not sublicense his IP for the whole time, really gives IH free reign for a long amount of time to do whatever they want. Really is very Honeypot-ish.

  • Sanjeev

    Mats writes : “IH then never intended to perform the stipulated one-year test ….”
    I don’t think this has a good basis, except Rossi’s own comment. In this Fortune interview Darden says
    http://fortune.com/2015/09/27/ceo-cherokee-investment-partners-low-energy-nuclear-reaction/

    “we want to crush all the tests. ”
    “I don’t want to say that cold fusion is real until we can absolutely prove it in ten different ways and then persuade our worst critics to join our camp.”
    ” We have sponsored tests and more research for Rossi’s work.”

    But in the same interview he says : We’ve been seeing the creation of isotopes and energy releases at relatively low temperatures—1,000 degrees centigrade, which could be a sign that fusion has occurred.

    This was in Sept 2015, so something went wrong after that. Probably they got it tested in 10 different ways and were not convinced, or were so much convinced that they decided they don’t need Rossi now.

    • pangoo

      I think the main problem here is the messy patent situation and the lack of understanding of the actual LENR process. It is new science and alot of the patents issued presumably will be able to be circumvented when a better understanding of the physics is achieved. This is a very a unstable situation.

      Industrial Heat probably understand this and that they could use LENR’s ambiguity to gain control of the field. Also could be the reason why they wanted to invest in multiple LENR inventors/companies.

      Who would want to be merely a licensee of the technology when you have an opportunity to be one of the main companies in control of the whole field? I mean we are talking about the future primary world energy source.

      I would love to know what happens if Randall Mills theory proves correct. He had very early patents refused on the basis that cold fusion is not real. If he turns out to be right the patents were refused in the wrong. Its just USPTO ignorance.

    • Stephen

      I have been wondering about this comment from Darden in Fortune about wanting to verify in 10 different ways too. Why was he emphasizing that? In the original APCO statement didn’t it also say something about a having a third party performing the test before they acknowledge it? Is it these extra tests that IH “require” before they feel they can “substantiate” the tests. Is this what Andrea Rossi also means about passing on his IP to third parties. Is he also OK with those extra tests or concerned that they are maybe being performed by competitors? Are the third party tests additional or outside the original agreement between him and IH. And are IH adding these additional test requirements? Is this the sticking point I wonder? If so the year testing may have passed but maybe IH don’t want to call it until a third party evaluation is made, AR maybe does not want to pass on skills of the art to those potential competitors. AR maybe sees that IH have broken their original agreement.

      Didn’t someone with another LENR technology owned or licensed by IH mention he thought IH were questioning its readiness for production rather than its working status? Perhaps this was also about third party verification too.

      Regarding the ERV I get the impression IH were involved with AR with his selection from the very beginning.

      Andrea on his blog a day or so after receiving the report and being very happy with it, once mentioned “sometimes it’s only when you think you won that you loose” or something like that. Probably it was more about the F9 statement so we should be careful not to take it out of context. But it made a big impression on me in the context of the ERV report nevertheless. I think up to the end he hoped IH would come through especially if the results were so good. But it seems they were not prepared to release the ERV report maybe because of their wish to do third party testing with external testers. maybe because they didn’t want to pay, maybe because they think it didn’t work. But given the former statements from IH I do wonder about the initial case.

      It doesn’t explain some apparently shadey things like why the tried to file their own Patents based on his tech etc. Which does worry me about their ethics. And makes me question their motives for the extra tests and why they released the APCO statement specially mentioning third party testing at this time too is this to cover them selves for passing on IP? But maybe it explains something about the sticking points in the current disagreement if it is true.

      • cashmemorz

        This would explain the “unsubstantiated” part that IH mentioned most recently. By “unsubstantiated” IH would mean “not fully tested by other-third parties” (my quotes for how I personally interpret “substantiate” in this context) that would be the only sticking point for IH before going ahead with production/sales. BUT for AR this wouild also be the sticking point since AR would have to give all technical details to that third party and AR seems very hesitant to anything like that. Finally to this point, is why IH is not paying the $89m until the third party has finished” substantiating” independently.

      • Sanjeev

        If you take Darden’s words at face value then its very much possible that they got the IP tested by third parties or their own scientists/engineers. May be they found issues in it and decided to “re-evaluate” their portfolio.
        But then why did they spend $11.5M on it?

    • Gerald

      A cop of 50 you can prove in a day, no way you can fool technical people with this kind of energy enhancement. So Rossi lies or there is faul play about money. Myself I still believe that Rossi has it, the lawsuit will show us. If this kind of LERN is real the lawsuit will be dropped I guess.

    • Ged

      And September was past the half way point of the 1 year test, no way he would not have known if it was working or not at that point. So him saying all that, says that at least in the sense of “does it work or not” the E-cat was substantiated. But, you bring up very interesting and smart points about the use of the word by IH’s press release and the connection to Darden’s interview about testing it 10 different ways (I believe that was hyperbole, and not literally 10 different ways).

      Still, their contract was to pay after the 1 year test.

      Interestingly, having Rossi in a container for a whole year, limited by contract to not sublicense his IP for the whole time, really gives IH free reign for a long amount of time to do whatever they want. Really is very Honeypot-ish.

  • Sanjeev
  • Jimr

    All of this confuses me however, I believe Rossi made a mistake suing so soon. He should have waited until the report came out verifying his one year test, this would make headlines, and after a couple weeks file his suit.
    I think there must be more to this than we have been made aware of. Darden, IH, Cherrkee are not stupid, they must have knowledge of facts that Rossi has not devulged.

  • Jimr

    All of this confuses me however, I believe Rossi made a mistake suing so soon. He should have waited until the report came out verifying his one year test, this would make headlines, and after a couple weeks file his suit.
    I think there must be more to this than we have been made aware of. Darden, IH, Cherrkee are not stupid, they must have knowledge of facts that Rossi has not devulged.

    • Jophyeojiji

      But he already has the report. It is just that it hasn’t been made public to the rest of the world yet.

      • Jimr

        Yes I meant released to the public.

  • Andrew

    I’m back to a wait an see mode…. I still think that Rossi has the goods because he knows that to win his case he will have to show proof of an Ecat with a COP > 6

  • Andrew

    I’m back to a wait an see mode…. I still think that Rossi has the goods because he knows that to win his case he will have to show proof of an Ecat with a COP > 6

  • etburg

    I believe Mats is right. Logically, if you thought you had even 95% of the answer (and Rossi indicates they now have everything) could make deals with others at much lower cost to get you the rest of the way, and saw a path to locking up patents for yourself, and the alternative was spending 89 million just to have the right to resell in certain markets, I can see how that wouldn’t be a hard decision for some people to make. It would also explain IH’s silence on the year long test throughout and the apparent gap between what Rossi seemed to be doing and them. He communicated daily and they never really mentioned it, or interestingly, moved to make him stop talking… They didn’t’ really want the test, they’d already gotten what they wanted and had moved on. A repeat of the Defkalion debacle. Abd, yes, raising 89 million in addition to capital for other things they wanted to do may have proved too much of a challenge – or people wanting more for their money such as owning the whole kit and caboodle.
    I would also agree that they have probably underestimated Rossi and his tenacity. On the other hand, they have much deeper pockets and could just string this out and exhaust his funds unless he manages to actually start selling ecats through other channels. On the one hand, we could be on for a few years of waiting and sifting through court documents, on the other hand, both sides could try to move forward to try to get something out there to grab marjet share. That certainly seems to be Rossi is intent. In addition to the early computer lawsuits there were the Microsoft Apple lawsuits over the graphic interface (stolen from Xerox originally), the early wars between Edison and Westinghouse-Tesla over delivering current. Balzac said, “Behind every great fortune is a great crime”. I hope that proves to be wrong in this case and Rossi is triumphant. Of course, a voice in me chimes in once in a while that this could all be a scam by Rossi, but given the given the record now, stated in court documents of 12 million in payments already, IH agreeing to pay 89 million on delivery of year long test results, Woodward’s large investment, IH running around buying up other patents and filing their own, does it really make sense that Rossi was unable to prove his claims to them over the past three years as they claim? The next few years will be interesting. I am actualkymore inclined to think that lawsuits starting up is evidence there is something big here than not.

  • Snobben

    Hello Mats Lewan, I have followed developments regarding the E-cat since it was shown on the news in Swedish telivision five years ago. Since then I have followed your reporting and thought that you made a good and important job, and i think you still do. My hopes regarding the functioning of the E-Cat has not decreased due to the conflict between IH and Andrea Rossi. But I think now that there are no longer any reason for Rossi to not finally prove to the world that the E-Cat really works. If Rossi has not done so within two months from now, he loses all credibility. There are no longer any agreement or other excuses to blame, I give Rossi two months

    • But Rossi is not interested in proving anything to anybody. He’s stated a million times that only a product in the market matters and recently has said that he met with ABB to set up automated manufacturing and is moving quickly toward mass production.

      When he signed up with IH he though he had a partner who would help him get to market.

      If on the other hand he announced a new test and the referees were anything but impeccable scientists and completely independent (like from another planet independent) then it would just be another time wasting round of calorimetry inkblot tests.

      I would welcome him sending out E-Cat X’s to high profile Universities all at once when he feels he can.

      I will say that the clock is ticking. The 1 year test I always thought was a stupid unnecessary delay. Rossi did it for money and apparently IH didn’t even want to do it after they got the IP but seemed to be more of a stalling tactic from them so they could execute their alternate plans. Now there is nothing between Rossi and the market. If it takes more than say 6 months and there is no clarity from the lawsuit then it’ll look very bad.

      • Nothing except product safety certification. Much easier for a small wafer that makes electricity by using up lithium and hydrogen like some new kind of fuel cell, than for a cold fusion boiler, I would imagine.

        I wonder if IH understand just how thoroughly they have been shafted by Rossi, whoever is morally in the right (if either party is).

      • clovis ray

        Yes, the only thing i would venture a guess that he still needs just a little more time, in order, for him to get loose ends tied up. i figure until june, is the hint he gives us, then he will decide as to how to make the release, i hope it’s big i just love a party, smile.

  • There’s a hierarchy of truthiness that I think is important to acknowledge here.

    Rossi Says and speculation bring up there rear.
    We can trust that company press releases at least reliably convey what the company wants to say.
    Journalistic articles should contain reliable facts and logical inferences if the reporter is good (and I think we can all agree that Mats is good).

    And then there’s a whole other level: assertions made in legal documents. These carry much extra weight because there are costs associated with them. Direct monetary costs for filing a lawsuit and retaining attorneys. Resource costs in the preparation time required (18 volumes!). Opportunity costs in the R&D that doesn’t get done and any other delays in getting to market. Potential personal cost of perjury or fraud litigation, perhaps resulting in both civil damages and jail time if the information is fabricated.

    So it is no small thing for Rossi to file this lawsuit, claim an average COP above 50 and allege misconduct on the part of Industrial Heat. It’s not just ‘taking his side’ in a war of words to acknowledge the strength of this info relative to all the other innuendo and speculation.

    Either the COP is above 50 and Rossi should have been paid, or it’s not and he has committed career murder-suicide, taking Penon and Levi with him.

    Right now Rossi is the one being open, detailed and seeming to act rationally. Industrial Heat’s behavior on the other hand is confusing and looks slimy as hell. I’m experiencing some cognitive dissonance coming to terms with that behavior. I didn’t expect it at all from them. It’s stupid and short-sighted. So the ball is in Industrial Heat’s corner. When they submit their own legal claims then we can maybe start to get to the bottom of this.

    One thing is concrete for me. Rossi doesn’t put the COP 50 in the lawsuit nor be in a rush to publish the full report if he didn’t believe it to be true. If fabricated that course of action would be worse than totally ineffective, exposing him to many bad things.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      I don’t think he claimed yearly average COP of 50. He said that at times the COP was more than 50. The yearly average is probably less. Peter Gluck’s guess was 21.

      • The lawsuit claims average COP over 50. I’ll see if I can find the exact clause. It’s pretty clear.

        EDIT: here… paragraph 71 of the complaint:

        71. On February 15, 2016, the Guaranteed Performance test was successfully
        concluded. The E-Cat Unit had successfully operated for more than three hundred fifty (350) days out of a four hundred (400) day period at a level substantially greater than the level achieved during the Validation Test. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.

        • artefact

          Yes. And it was over 60 for some time.

          • The “by all accounts” piece intrigues me. Makes me think Rossi, Penon and IH (Fabiani?) compared notes and all agreed COP 50+.

          • That would be unfortunate, if provable.

          • I didn’t mean in a ‘made it up’ kind of way. I meant they all agreed the data said the same thing… and that IH is include in the ‘all.’

          • Trouble is, to the legal eagles, any cross-communications would be ‘collusion’ – if that was useful to their case.

          • Ged

            Except in this case IH has to pay if the COP is above 6 (or 2.5, actually). So if IH’s people agreed it was, then IH needs to pay, and their legal defense is bust.

          • Ged

            That is how I interpreted that line too when I first saw it.

          • clovis ray

            HI , Guys,
            This Fabiani fellow, wasn’t he on the forum a few moons back, and said, you would not believe what my eyes have seen,
            Heck, Frank have any idea about getting him on, even though he will be bound with an nda, he still could be helpful and when he can talk we’ll have first hand knowledge, “don’t ya know, just a thought, i bet”ya, he has some great stories, ya know he does, and it seems like he likes to tell those tales.

            I should have said fabio penon the ERV, in stead off Fabiani

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Ok, I remembered wrong and stand corrected. All the better.

        • SG

          Be aware that “during the same period” can have two interpretations. 1) That COP was substantially greater than 50 during the entire same period (i.e., the entire 350 days), or 2) That COP was substantially greater than 50 at times during the same period. I can read it either way. So we really need the ERV to confirm the meaning.

          • I just can’t agree with that.

            “…amount of energy produced…during the… Test… was… greater than 50 times… consumed… during the same period.”

            The period is clearly the entire test/year. If they used this language to say that at some *moments* during the test they saw 50x energy spikes then that would be seriously misleading. Energy spikes are meaningless in the context of the report validation — even meaningless overall.

            If it turns out you are right, then that would be a serious knock against this claim, indicating that Rossi/Penon were playing word games. But stranger things have happened wrt Rossi, so I don’t dismiss your observation outright.

      • Obvious

        The Leonardo press release states:

        “The results of Dr. Penon’s test was consistent with the measurements
        taken by the representatives of Leonardo Corporation and Industrial Heat
        respectively during the course of the test” said inventor Andrea Rossi.

    • If Wang’s hit piece is leading the way, press coverage will be negative, probably libelous (Wang skirts the edges).

      Rossi appears to have been preparing to open a court case for a long time, but it seems to have caught Darden et al. off balance. IH’s initial rebuttal seems ill-prepared and full of holes, but the case they present to the court is likely to be much better thought through.

      As to his motive (speculation mode full on) I think the best guess must be that Rossi suspected that the final payment wouldn’t be forthcoming (that might be down to him, or IH or both parties) and has initiated the case so that his agreement with IH is terminated and he can claim sole rights to all e-cat IP (per his recent pronouncement on JoNP) AND in order to gain publicity for his work, and public proof of its reality, through a demonstration to the court.

    • cashmemorz

      My take in line with what LENR G stated is as follows. The litigation started by AR is based on not being paid th $89m by IH. The reason I see for non payment is that IH has not substantiated the workings of the E-CAT. Not substantiated because the third partie(s) doing the test to substantiate is not yet finished. IH I feel does have the $89m allocated in house for payment to AR. IH cannot inform AR if the third party has done “substantiating ” to keep AR totally at arms length to the third parties doing the test. AR, uninformed is acting upon his lack of knowledge to think the worst of IH and so went to litigation.

      • Stephen

        Even though it’s not ideal I hope it’s something like that. I was saddened to think of the alternatives.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I was thinking, nothing IH says can be taken seriously. They can say anything, what they say under oath is what matters. Rossi is to be taken seriously as what he is saying is under oath and subject to perjury. It has a lot more weight and all should be pressuring IH not Rossi. We already know he was screwed out of the money and IH is basically playing word games with no legal ramifications at this point.

    • Ged

      Very good analysis summary.

  • Sandy

    Industrial Heat probably knew within the first 60 days of the test that the 1-megawatt E-Cat was producing heat at a COP of +50. So why did IH just sit on its hands for 10 more months? It would have made good business sense for IH to begin producing E-Cats immediately. In business, “Time is money”, and IH seems to be wasting both. Either the E-Cat did not work as well as reported, or it did work that well and an OPEC member put a very large sum into a numbered foreign bank account.

    • cashmemorz

      Or IH have a hidden factory making them for also hidden powerful entities: military, government, big business.. See if IH or Cherokee Funds starts getting influx of $ fropm sources unknown…

    • If their goal was to distract Rossi while they leveraged the IP they got in different directions then things went according to plan.

      They may have decided early on that they wanted the IP but they didn’t ultimately want to do business with Rossi (for financial or personal reasons). Ugly. But possible. Happens a lot in business.

      • Brokeeper

        IH could not find a customer for a year? Really? I think this speaks for itself Darden’s motivation – at least zip for Rossi. I’m sure Rossi wised up long before taking the initiative himself to find the customer and gave the go ahead for his lawyers to prepare for the law suit.

  • Sandy

    Industrial Heat probably knew within the first 60 days of the test that the 1-megawatt E-Cat was producing heat at a COP of +50. So why did IH just sit on its hands for 10 more months? It would have made good business sense for IH to begin producing E-Cats immediately. In business, “Time is money”, and IH seems to be wasting both. Either the E-Cat did not work as well as reported, or it did work that well and an OPEC member put a very large sum into a numbered foreign bank account.

    • cashmemorz

      Or IH have a hidden factory making them for also hidden powerful entities: military, government, big business.. See if IH or Cherokee Funds starts getting influx of $ from sources unknown…

    • If their goal was to distract Rossi while they leveraged the IP they got in different directions then things went according to plan.

      They may have decided early on that they wanted the IP but they didn’t ultimately want to do business with Rossi (for financial or personal reasons). Ugly. But possible. Happens a lot in business.

      • Brokeeper

        IH could not find a customer for a year? Really? I think this speaks for itself Darden’s motivation – at least zip for Rossi. I’m sure Rossi wised up long before taking the initiative himself to find the customer and gave the go ahead for his lawyers to prepare for the law suit.

  • Jarea

    I think like many others that the only option Rossi has now is to deliver asap to the market or show to the world clearly that his invention works. Now there is no any NDA blocking. Besides, he has a patent.
    What i fear is that Rossi could have an accident and all his discovered fall to be controlled to the big groups that want to slow down or control (pay for energy) the technology.

    • That is now a distinct possibility. An open court case during which a successful cold fusion device is demonstrated is about the last thing those still heavily invested in fossil/nuclear energy would want. Probably it wouldn’t be reported though, at least not offline.

    • sam

      Rossi agrees with you.

      • Jarea

        Sometimes i think that the only way to survive is by creating a secret operation. The big powers do this all the time because they know the power of intelligence agencies, the power of selected killing to change things. With a trillion dollars in the game we know that all these accidents are possible (e.g. electric cars, smoking, lead diesel, climate change)
        Rossi should create a parallel and safe circle where he diversify his knowledge with a contention plan in case bad scenarios happens. Who knows maybe he had already done this and there are some professors in Italy who receive money and info from him so that they will keep his invention going and his memory beyond him. I know i speak as he is already down but i am very serious when i say he must do that.

  • Jarea

    I think like many others that the only option Rossi has now is to deliver asap to the market or show to the world clearly that his invention works. Now there is no any NDA blocking. Besides, he has a patent.
    What i fear is that Rossi could have “an accident”,or not recognized for his work and that all his discoveries fall to be controlled by the big groups that want to slow down or control (pay for energy) the technology.
    Please, i have repeated many times, it is is time to not be greedy because you can´t compete in greedeness with big groups.

    • That is now a distinct possibility. An open court case during which a successful cold fusion device is demonstrated is about the last thing those still heavily invested in fossil/nuclear energy would want. Probably it wouldn’t be reported though, at least not offline.

    • sam

      Rossi agrees with you.

      • Jarea

        Sometimes i think that the only way to survive is by creating a secret operation. The big powers do this all the time because they know the power of intelligence agencies, the power of selected killing to change things. With a trillion dollars in the game we know that all these accidents are possible (e.g. electric cars, smoking, lead diesel, climate change)
        Rossi should create a parallel and safe circle where he diversify his knowledge with a contention plan in case bad scenarios happens. Who knows maybe he had already done this and there are some professors in Italy who receive money and info from him so that they will keep his invention going and his memory beyond him. I know i speak as he is already down but i am very serious when i say he must do that.

  • Bob Tivnan

    So, we know that IH contracted with seasoned LENR researchers including Godes from Brillouin and possibly George Miley (IH acquired his patents). We also know that IH paid Rossi 10 million dollars in 2013 for successfully demonstrating the E-Cat in the 24 hour test and subsequently recieved Rossi’s IP. Consider this possibility. IH divulges the IP to these researchers, who then comb through Rossi’s patent with the knowledge of how the E-Cat works. They discover inconsistencies and/or omissions in Rossi’s patent that would invalidate patent protection. IH calculated that this significantly devalues their license to sell E-Cats, and decide that their chances are better without Rossi if their hired hands are able to successfully replicate. They then file their own patent with the help of these other researchers, intending to squeeze Rossi out by exposing his patent weaknesses and bolstering their own patent, thereby beating Rossi in ALL markets. The 90 million plus damages to Rossi are drops in the bucket compared to the billions they stand to gain from their own product.

    • Stands to reason.

      Darden from day 1 was all about the patents and developing a bullet-proof IP position. I suppose that informed Industrial Heat’s strategy more than anything else.

      Still, if it works and they “stole” it then, though it would not be an unusual story in the VC eats inventor book, it’s got to be some seriously bad karma to marginalize the man who made some of the most important engineering advances/discoveries in human history.

      • Jonnyb

        Thing is Rossi has been through this sort of thing before and I suspect he was expecting it again. I recon he would have covered his back. It took most of us by surprise I think. They may have trouble defeating Andrea this time, older and wiser so to say.

        • wpj

          Just read the bio on his site which states that he trusts no one after what went down in Italy; not even Focardi, it seems.

        • You’re not really paranoid if they’re really out to get you.

          I wonder though how much of Rossi’s behavior brings these outcomes down on himself. Self-fulfilling prophesies may be a problem for him.

  • Bob Tivnan

    So, we know that IH contracted with seasoned LENR researchers including Godes from Brillouin and possibly George Miley (IH acquired his patents). We also know that IH paid Rossi 10 million dollars in 2013 for successfully demonstrating the E-Cat in the 24 hour test and subsequently recieved Rossi’s IP. Consider this possibility. IH divulges the IP to these researchers, who then comb through Rossi’s patent with the knowledge of how the E-Cat works. They discover inconsistencies and/or omissions in Rossi’s patent that would invalidate patent protection. IH calculated that this significantly devalues their license to sell E-Cats, and decide that their chances are better without Rossi if their hired hands are able to successfully replicate. They then file their own patent with the help of these other researchers, intending to squeeze Rossi out by exposing his patent weaknesses and bolstering their own patent, thereby beating Rossi in ALL markets. The 90 million plus damages to Rossi are drops in the bucket compared to the billions they stand to gain from their own product.

    • Stands to reason.

      Darden from day 1 was all about the patents and developing a bullet-proof IP position. I suppose that informed Industrial Heat’s strategy more than anything else.

      Still, if it works and they “stole” it then, though it would not be an unusual story in the VC eats inventor book, it’s got to be some seriously bad karma to marginalize the man who made some of the most important engineering advances/discoveries in human history.

      • Jonnyb

        Thing is Rossi has been through this sort of thing before and I suspect he was expecting it again. I recon he would have covered his back. It took most of us by surprise I think. They may have trouble defeating Andrea this time, older and wiser so to say.

        • wpj

          Just read the bio on his site which states that he trusts no one after what went down in Italy; not even Focardi, it seems.

        • You’re not really paranoid if they’re really out to get you.

          I wonder though how much of Rossi’s behavior brings these outcomes down on himself. Self-fulfilling prophesies may be a problem for him.

    • Jerry Soloman

      Bob, So, we know “Godes from Brillouin” was demonstrating a reactor that was Not related to patients he owned, that he was demonstrating IP belonging to Rossi – That’s what we know for certain

      We also know that Industrial Heat that after 3 years of collaboration has suddenly declared the E-Cats are good for nothing,

      pretty clear that Godes from Brillouin and Industrial Heat are now partners with Rossi IP
      problem is that Rossi caught on to them early on and they are missing a few critical steps.

    • clovis ray

      Hi, bob, sounds right to me,

  • Rossi is in the cat-bird seat, he wisely entered into a limited license agreement with IH he did not sell his IP. Now that there is discord between the parties Rossi can raise money elsewhere without risk but IH is subject to staggering risk from Rossi’s enforcement of his IP. IH will not likely find another penny of investment and those having invested with them will be running for legal cover in their claw back and protection clauses. Those who are found to have been recipients, or even suspected of being recipients, of Rossi’s IP passed through IH are on very thin ice and likewise have incredible risk exposure to any investor doing their due diligence… The fact that Rossi stuck to the letter of his agreements and filed the law suit promptly upon the default by IH defines he and his case as robust to say the least. I have some experience in this having several times created cold fusion companies, accepted venture capital investors, and suffered the same treatment as Rossi…. he’s doing everything right in my humble opinion as one who has learned the hard way! read more of my experience on this on my blog at atom-ecology.russgeorge.net

    • Tom59

      What I have trouble to understand is why is there any problem to raise money? The plant was running 1 yr with plenty of visitors I understood and probably first clear conclusions after few weeks. At this stage -2016- this should be a win- win- win situation no matter if they follow the business ideas of Rossi or Darden. The only reason I could see would be Rossi wanting to switch to a bigger, more impactful business partner. But even then IH could remain part of the team. Puzzling…

      • cashmemorz

        IH must have the $89m allocated in house rather than in a bank “in escrow”.
        IH is probably just waiting for the finalization of the test by third
        parties to substantiate what seems to be the function of the E-Cat.
        Then they will pay. AR probably has not been informed of the third party test or exactly why IH is not paying the $89m so AR became paranoid and jumped the gun towards litigation. Simplest explanations are usually the closest to the truth.

    • sam

      Can you tell me what IH purchsed for 100 million.Thanks

      • Michael W Wolf

        They didn’t purchase anything now. The only thing we really know is that they did not pay by the contract date and now the contract is void and they loss 11.5 million dollars. They’ll have to prove in court otherwise. Until there is a ruling in court, Rossi is the only one to swear under oath. It seems to me IH is worried about committing perjury, or else they would have filed under oath before Rossi. After all they were the ones who knew first they weren’t going to pay.

        • Heath

          Right. If they thought they were bamboozled, this would have been evident years ago yet their statements reaffirmed the relationship with Rossi over and over. And why keep going after international investment money? They could have exposed him and moved on or have gone silent from then on. Most likely it was a matter of keeping the pretense of their relationship alive because of the agreement.

  • Rossi is in the cat-bird seat, he wisely entered into a limited license agreement with IH he did not sell his IP. Now that there is discord between the parties Rossi can raise money elsewhere without risk but IH is subject to staggering risk from Rossi’s enforcement of his IP. IH will not likely find another penny of investment and those having invested with them will be running for legal cover in their claw back and protection clauses. Those who are found to have been recipients, or even suspected of being recipients, of Rossi’s IP passed through IH are on very thin ice and likewise have incredible risk exposure to any investor doing their due diligence… The fact that Rossi stuck to the letter of his agreements and filed the law suit promptly upon the default by IH defines he and his case as robust to say the least. I have some experience in this having several times created cold fusion companies, accepted venture capital investors, and suffered the same treatment as Rossi…. he’s doing everything right in my humble opinion as one who has learned the hard way! read more of my experience on this on my blog at atom-ecology.russgeorge.net

    • Tom59

      What I have trouble to understand is why is there any problem to raise money? The plant was running 1 yr with plenty of visitors I understood and probably first clear conclusions after few weeks. At this stage -2016- this should be a win- win- win situation no matter if they follow the business ideas of Rossi or Darden. The only reason I could see would be Rossi wanting to switch to a bigger, more impactful business partner. But even then IH could remain part of the team. Puzzling…

      • cashmemorz

        IH must have the $89m allocated in house rather than in a bank “in escrow”.
        IH is probably just waiting for the finalization of the test by third
        parties to substantiate what seems to be the function of the E-Cat.
        Then they will pay. AR probably has not been informed of the third party test or exactly why IH is not paying the $89m so AR became paranoid and jumped the gun towards litigation. Simplest explanations are usually the closest to the truth.

    • sam

      Can you tell me what IH purchsed for 100 million.Thanks

      • Michael W Wolf

        They didn’t purchase anything now. The only thing we really know is that they did not pay by the contract date and now the contract is void and they lose 11.5 million dollars. They’ll have to prove in court otherwise. Until there is a ruling in court, Rossi is the only one to swear under oath. It seems to me IH is worried about committing perjury, or else they would have filed under oath before Rossi. After all they were the ones who knew first they weren’t going to pay.

        • Heath

          Right. If they thought they were bamboozled, this would have been evident years ago yet their statements reaffirmed the relationship with Rossi over and over. And why keep going after international investment money? They could have exposed him and moved on or have gone silent from then on. Most likely it was a matter of keeping the pretense of their relationship alive because of the agreement.

  • Frechette

    If this goes to a jury Darden and IH will eventually try to settle with Rossi out of court. I’ve seen many court cases where the parties in question have settled on the steps of the court house the morning of the impending trial.

    • I thought that at first, but then realised that this is probably not about the money, but about Rossi terminating the IH connection in favour of a new third party backer, possibly based in Europe. He seems to have been planning this for a long time, perhaps because IH gave him cause to do so, or perhaps just because someone made him a better offer.

      IH now have the 1MW IP (and presumably the two ‘pilot’ plants) which is effectively obsolete and would be difficult to obtain safety certification for, no licence to distribute Leonardo products, investors they must repay, and are $12 million plus down on the deal. In addition they only seem to have a weak defence against Leonardo’s case, which is in any case contradicted by the record, and they are at risk of revealing evidence that they may have systematically violated Rossi’s IP.

      Rossi has the e-cat X technology that has vast potential and may be easier than an industrial boiler to get safety certified, is free of IH subject to pending patent wars which were inevitable anyway, and appears to have new backers.

      Rossi’s new backers or Rossi himself may be out to break IH, but even if not, I can’t see Rossi accepting any deal that leaves IH with anything worth having. This may or may not be deserved, but we’ll probably never know. Rossi may even want his ‘day in court’ for publicity reasons – a demonstration before a court, combined with making public the ERV report would be incredibly valuable if it preceded a product launch. I fully agree with russ george’s summary of Rossi’s position, below.

  • pg

    As anybody noticed that the trolls posts are slowly starting to pick up in the last couple of days?

    • As usual when more confirming evidence is added to the pile. “No, no, don’t look there – look here!”

    • cashmemorz

      Ignore their fire and it will burn less brightly.

    • Billy Jackson

      I would plead that everyone remain rational and calm. We have had many articles to react and praise the success or failure of the issue with Rossi and the E-cat. Accept that there are going to be those that do not believe as we do. Their voice is as important as each of ours. If anything it shows us the issues we still need to answer. I find this no less irritating than the rest of you and am appalled at the behavior of Darden and company.. as the accusations stand now.

      If someone has something to add that does not fit what is popular then so be it.. but be rational and less hostile to each others opinions and we will move forward one day at a time. This is not the end of Rossi and LENR it is but another hurdle we have to cross.

      • Michael W Wolf

        You nailed it Billy.

      • It’s possible that Rossi is in the process of negotiating his way around a hurdle that would have held up progress in his opinion.

        • Tom59

          Rossi developed this technology to this point making tremendous personal sacrifices in a hostile and humiliating environment. No one in his situation would easily give up control without being 100% certain that it goes in the right direction – this is rather the norm than the exception.

    • Roland

      Having followed this on Ecat.com for a number of years there was a notable improvement in the tenor and quality of the commentary in the post Lugano era, and another significant upturn with the advent of MFMP and a concerted effort to advance our understanding of LENR from within the ranks of Ecat.com viewers turned participants.

      As both the postings and commentary became more focused on understanding the phenomena associated with various approaches to LENR, and on the implications for physics posed by LENR, there was a notable abatement in ill-informed quasi-literate commentary and ill-conceived baseless attacks on the reality of LENR and the intentions of Andrea Rossi.

      I, for one, was pleased when the MARYYUGO era on this forum ended shortly after the Lugano Report. Ecat.com became immensely more interesting in every respect as shrill invective, obdurate stupidity and loosely reasoned ‘conspiracy’ commentary significantly declined and the clash of actual ideas about LENR and its implications ramped steadily upwards.

      I expect the current downturn to be brief as reality re-asserts itself in the form of the ERV report and further progress towards manufacture in Europe is revealed.

      • SG

        While agree with your sentiments, I didn’t know that Ecat.com had much posted commentary. Great content, don’t get me wrong. But are you sure you weren’t referring to e-catworld.com ?

        • Roland

          Duh, yup…

          I’ll go sit in the corner for a while with my dunce cap on.

          • SG

            Cheers. 😉

          • artefact

            Ok, that was 7 hours. You can come out of the corner now 🙂

  • pg

    As anybody noticed that the trolls posts are slowly starting to pick up in the last couple of days?

    • As usual when more confirming evidence is added to the pile. “No, no, don’t look there – look here!”

    • cashmemorz

      Ignore their fire and it will burn less brightly.

    • Billy Jackson

      I would plead that everyone remain rational and calm. We have had many articles to react and praise the success or failure of the issue with Rossi and the E-cat. Accept that there are going to be those that do not believe as we do. Their voice is as important as each of ours. If anything it shows us the issues we still need to answer. I find this no less irritating than the rest of you and am appalled at the behavior of Darden and company.. as the accusations stand now.

      If someone has something to add that does not fit what is popular then so be it.. but be rational and less hostile to each others opinions and we will move forward one day at a time. This is not the end of Rossi and LENR it is but another hurdle we have to cross.

      • Michael W Wolf

        You nailed it Billy.

      • It’s possible that Rossi is in the process of negotiating his way around a hurdle that would have held up progress in his opinion.

    • Roland

      Having followed this on Ecat.com for a number of years there was a notable improvement in the tenor and quality of the commentary in the post Lugano era, and another significant upturn with the advent of MFMP and a concerted effort to advance our understanding of LENR from within the ranks of Ecat.com viewers turned participants.

      As both the postings and commentary became more focused on understanding the phenomena associated with various approaches to LENR, and on the implications for physics posed by LENR, there was a notable abatement in ill-informed quasi-literate commentary and ill-conceived baseless attacks on the reality of LENR and the intentions of Andrea Rossi.

      I, for one, was pleased when the MARYYUGO era on this forum ended shortly after the Lugano Report. Ecat.com became immensely more interesting in every respect as shrill invective, obdurate stupidity and loosely reasoned ‘conspiracy’ commentary significantly declined and the clash of actual ideas about LENR and its implications ramped steadily upwards.

      I expect the current downturn to be brief as reality re-asserts itself in the form of the ERV report and further progress towards manufacture in Europe is revealed.

      • SG

        While agree with your sentiments, I didn’t know that Ecat.com had much posted commentary. Great content, don’t get me wrong. But are you sure you weren’t referring to e-catworld.com ?

        • Roland

          Duh, yup…

          I’ll go sit in the corner for a while with my dunce cap on.

          • SG

            Cheers. 😉

          • artefact

            Ok, that was 7 hours. You can come out of the corner now 🙂

  • BillH

    A lot of this makes no sense at all. My best advice is to follow the plant, the hardware, the customer. IF IH were sure that they had a working device that they could manufacture it would be out there now, while they still had AR secured in a crate working 18Hrs a day?
    It’s clear that if there is a report it has not been signed off on by some or most of the parties, probably IH, who don’t agree with it’s findings. Hence the non-payment of $89M.

    The fact that the test ran the full year say something, reportedly IH staff, the ERV and of course AH were all on site, so there is no dispute over where it actually is? Get there fire up the plant, the mystery will be solved in a week?

    No plant, no customer, no ERV, sorry Mr AR, no money.

  • sam

    Mats might have a bad headache.

  • e-dog

    Years!!!!!! oh no…..

    • artefact

      The show will go on while the court affair takes place.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Fabiani, IH’s lead engineer, confirmed Rossi’s claims. I think Mats can support Rossi with confidence, with first hand testimony and witness from IH people themselves If it turns out Fabiani and others lied to him, he will lose no credibility. But it will prove IH people were lying. But why would they?

  • e-dog

    Years!!!!!! oh no…..

    • artefact

      The show will go on while the court affair takes place.

  • sam

    What would happen if Rossi invites a news team to the plant.
    Say the Miami Herald that would not cost much to get there.
    They have likely covered odd ball stories before.

    • SG

      Nothing would happen. Mr. Rossi has done multiple public demos over the years, all with positive reports. The problem is that few believe him or the reports. Only working products in the marketplace will resolve this issue.

      • Michael W Wolf

        I don’t know, with a COP of 50, Rossi can be off the grid and use capacitors and that can be calculated very easily and happen very quickly. And be incontestable .

        • SG

          It sounds like the average COP is below 50. The information is still not abundantly clear. If the average COP is ~6 (remember, this is in terms of heat output over electrical input), then it is likely not enough to close the loop. If the average COP is higher, then maybe, but would also depend on the steam temperature.

          • artefact

            From the complaint:

            “71. On February 15, 2016, the Guaranteed Performance test was successfully
            concluded.
            The E-Cat Unit had successfully operated for more than three hundred
            fifty (350) days out of a four hundred (400) day period at a level
            substantially greater than the level achieved during the Validation
            Test. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit
            during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than
            fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during
            the same period.”

          • Michael W Wolf

            That is under oath. And what has IH said under oath? Case closed. hehe

          • SG

            Yes, I stand corrected. There is still some ambiguity for me, i.e., was it above COP of 50 for the entire duration of the test? Or did it cross the COP of 50 threshold several times during the test? Or is this an average? We really need the ERV report. It seems Mr. Rossi wants it released ASAP, and it also seems that IH does not (otherwise, it probably would have already been published).

          • artefact

            Some sentences later it says, that often a COP of more than 60 is reached. That points to 50 on average.

          • SG

            Let’s hope so. Because a 50x mis-measurement, by three different parties no less, seems highly improbable!

  • sam

    What would happen if Rossi invites a news team to the plant.
    Say the Miami Herald that would not cost much to get there.
    They have likely covered odd ball stories before.

    • SG

      Nothing would happen. Mr. Rossi has done multiple public demos over the years, all with positive reports. The problem is that few believe him or the reports. Only working products in the marketplace will resolve this issue.

      • Michael W Wolf

        I don’t know, with a COP of 50, Rossi can be off the grid and use capacitors and that can be calculated very easily and happen very quickly. And be incontestable .

        • SG

          It sounds like the average COP is below 50. The information is still not abundantly clear. If the average COP is ~6 (remember, this is in terms of heat output over electrical input), then it is likely not enough to close the loop. If the average COP is higher, then maybe, but would also depend on the steam temperature.

          • artefact

            From the complaint:

            “71. On February 15, 2016, the Guaranteed Performance test was successfully
            concluded.
            The E-Cat Unit had successfully operated for more than three hundred
            fifty (350) days out of a four hundred (400) day period at a level
            substantially greater than the level achieved during the Validation
            Test. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit
            during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than
            fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during
            the same period.”

          • Michael W Wolf

            That is under oath. And what has IH said under oath? Case closed. hehe

          • SG

            Yes, I stand corrected. There is still some ambiguity for me, i.e., was it above COP of 50 for the entire duration of the test? Or did it cross the COP of 50 threshold several times during the test? Or is this an average? We really need the ERV report. It seems Mr. Rossi wants it released ASAP, and it also seems that IH does not (otherwise, it probably would have already been published).

          • artefact

            Some sentences later it says, that often a COP of more than 60 is reached. That points to 50 on average.

          • SG

            Let’s hope so. Because a 50x mis-measurement, by three different parties no less, seems highly improbable!

          • BillH

            As I read this a few times i concluded that the average over the duration of the test was 50, with some peaks above 60(say 60)
            but never falling below 6.

          • Fastbuck

            I am wondering why Rossi didn’t include the ERV Report as an Exhibit in the lawsuit.

  • Scam or not this behavior really bugs me: after Industrial Heat got access to the E-Cat IP they 1 – failed to secure an adequate test facility/customer for the 1 year test, seemingly content to never do it; 2 – accepted Penon as the ERV instead of doing the obvious and getting someone completely independent and with an established firm behind him.

    Never wanting to do the test and not really caring where they did the test and who the ERV are the facts that are screaming for attention.

    My take is that they either found out shortly after they bought the IP that Rossi had scammed them or their true goal was to acquire the IP and sideline Rossi.

    But here’s the thing, if it was the first and they wanted to distance themselves from Rossi, they could have exposed him in a much shorter time and even if they stuck with the 1 year test they would have wanted some above reproach to catch his errors or fraud. Not to mention they wouldn’t have bothered to share Rossi’s IP with other scientists they co-opted nor file patents on derivative technology.

    • Jonnyb

      Don’t forget getting other institutions to invest as well.

      • Good point. Real money moving around.

        Due diligence asserted.

        Due diligence botched?

  • Scam or not this behavior really bugs me: after Industrial Heat got access to the E-Cat IP they 1 – failed to secure an adequate test facility/customer for the 1 year test, seemingly content to never do it; 2 – accepted Penon as the ERV instead of doing the obvious and getting someone completely independent and with an established firm behind him.

    Never wanting to do the test and not really caring where they did the test and who the ERV are the facts that are screaming for attention.

    My take is that they either found out shortly after they bought the IP that Rossi had scammed them or their true goal was to acquire the IP and sideline Rossi.

    But here’s the thing, if it was the first and they wanted to distance themselves from Rossi, they could have exposed him in a much shorter time and even if they stuck with the 1 year test they would have wanted some above reproach to catch his errors or fraud. Not to mention they wouldn’t have bothered to share Rossi’s IP with other scientists they co-opted nor file patents on derivative technology.

    • Jonnyb

      Don’t forget getting other institutions to invest as well.

      • Good point. Real money moving around.

        Due diligence asserted.

        Due diligence botched?

    • Heath

      They can use the not quite independent testers and locations and the Customer as proof that he was breaching the contract even though they knowingly approved. This seems pretty dirty. Perhaps because they knew he was holding something back even from them? Perhaps the E-CatX is really this reactor’s full potential.
      What I like about these revelations is that now the tepid Darden responses, the testing and manufacturing delays, the strange patent applications, the Vaughn statement that Rossi wasn’t credible start to make more sense. And the fact that portions of the tests did not seem as independent as all of us wanted to see. This has been a game of chess. Rossi needs to move forward with manufacturing now if his device is truly real.

    • Guest

      The answer to your question is in the contract. Immediately after the $10M payment Rossi was to provide IH with all IP, know-how, fuel recipes, and assistance for them to be able to use the E-Cat technology on their own and replicate the results.

      Essentially the first $11.5M were required before Rossi had to show them how to do things for themselves.

      We’ve all been so focused on the 1-year test results because they have been the subject of anticipation for so long, but to IH it probably meant very little. For them the most valuable thing would be to be able to make the reaction work for themselves. They could then play with the tech to their hearts’ content and remove any remaining doubts after all the arguably flawed independent tests. They could ultimately then answer the most fundamental question – does the tech work as it appears to – and then either sell it or refine it.

      IH has absolutely no incentive to walk away from the contract, they just can’t justify paying Rossi $89M without him meeting his end of contract (both test result AND transfer of know how). This is why IH will never cut ties with Rossi, they’re still just waiting for him to show them how to reproduce his results adequately.

      Economically, there is no reason to walk away because contract means they only have to pay when they can replicate. So they want to keep trying to replicate, want Rossi to help them, and until he does they’re holding on to the $89M.

      Ask Rossi if IH ever reached out and told him they were having trouble making the reaction work and asked for his help. I bet he won’t answer, because then whatever he says will be evidence in court.

  • Andrew

    Agreed, people need to keep an open mind to both ends of the spectrum. This is why I don’t agree with comments like that because they are very one sided. Rossi fraud, Rossi criminal, Rossi this, Rossi that. Never one possibility of IH being in the wrong.

  • Michael W Wolf

    I don’t know, many guilty people are better off saying as little as possible. You don’t see that from innocent people, generally. ” Your honor, I plead the fifth on the grounds that it may incriminate me” . It is not what innocent people say. And IH is not saying the 1mw reactor did not work. On the grounds that it may incriminate them? We will see.

  • wonderboy

    I think neither Rossi or Tom (IH) can be given the benefit of the doubt. I find IH actions questionable and IH previous press releases always eluded that they would pull something like this.

    IH is taking a very corporate secretive position, and not the type of company that cares for a revolution.

    That being said, has Rossi gone silent for the last 24 hours? If so, IH might be trying to reconcile.

    • SG

      Mr. Rossi is still posting to his blog, although very careful now not to talk about pending litigation matters (for good reasons). I doubt Mr. Rossi is interested in settling with IH for anything less than what is spelled out in the contract. There is a part of me that hopes there is no settlement. This turn of events has brought more clarity regarding the e-Cat into the open in ways that would otherwise have not been possible. And I think we have just scratched the surface–at least Mr. Rossi has eluded to that by referencing volumes of information and evidence that they have meticulously kept over the years.

  • wonderboy

    I think neither Rossi or Tom (IH) can be given the benefit of the doubt. I find IH actions questionable and IH previous press releases always eluded that they would pull something like this.

    IH is taking a very corporate secretive position, and not the type of company that cares for a revolution.

    That being said, has Rossi gone silent for the last 24 hours? If so, IH might be trying to reconcile.

    • SG

      Mr. Rossi is still posting to his blog, although very careful now not to talk about pending litigation matters (for good reasons). I doubt Mr. Rossi is interested in settling with IH for anything less than what is spelled out in the contract. There is a part of me that hopes there is no settlement. This turn of events has brought more clarity regarding the e-Cat into the open in ways that would otherwise have not been possible. And I think we have just scratched the surface–at least Mr. Rossi has eluded to that by referencing volumes of information and evidence that they have meticulously kept over the years.

  • Philippe Goulet

    But Rossi wants the 89mil or not ? If he’d like to pull out of the agreement would he have asked for the 89mil ? or should’nt he just ask to not be given the amiunt and just explain the real reason(s) why he’s not satisfied with the agreement?

  • sam

    Can someone tell me how long to court
    and something about the process.
    Nothing fancy and i wont hold you to it. Thanks

    • Michael W Wolf

      Well no one can really say. If IH is innocent, it should happen pretty quickly, a few months. But if IH for whatever reason decides to use their money and drag it out, it could be years. I don’t see any scenario where Rossi drags it out. He doesn’t have that kind of capital and wants his 89 million asap.

      • Heath

        We don’t know what Rossi has in the form of outside investment or doesn’t have.

        • kdk

          Indeed, IH doesn’t have the license for everywhere… there are more people who would be willing to look at the ERV by a nuclear engineer and IH’s erratic behavior, association with Brillouin and coupled with the serious Woodford investment. With another backer, Rossi might feel confident enough to consider the agreement null and avoid after lack of payment and play their game with them.

      • Rossi’s legal team may be working on a “no-win-no-fees” basis. If so, it would mean that, they have read all his 18 volumes and that they genuinely believe in him. If not, IH will easily outlast him, tie up the case for years and drain him of whatever money he still has.

    • Mike Henderson

      The typical U.S. patent lawsuit takes 2 years, but have gone as long as 15 years.

      http://www.inventionstatistics.com/Duration_of_Patent_Lawsuits_Litigation_Length.html

      • Ged

        Do jury trials play a role in those statistics? I would never want to be on a jury that had to take time out of their lives for two years to hear a case (though, most of the time set aside for a case is the discovery phase and waiting in line for a court date).

  • sam

    Can someone tell me how long to court
    and something about the process.
    Nothing fancy and i wont hold you to it. Thanks

    • Michael W Wolf

      Well no one can really say. If IH is innocent, it should happen pretty quickly, a few months. But if IH for whatever reason decides to use their money and drag it out, it could be years. I don’t see any scenario where Rossi drags it out. He doesn’t have that kind of capital and wants his 89 million asap.

      • Heath

        We don’t know what Rossi has in the form of outside investment or doesn’t have.

        • kdk

          Indeed, IH doesn’t have the license for everywhere… there are more people who would be willing to look at the ERV by a nuclear engineer and IH’s erratic behavior, association with Brillouin and coupled with the serious Woodford investment. With another backer, Rossi might feel confident enough to consider the agreement null and void after lack of payment and play their game with them.

          People who have been paying attention with all the corporate interest and data that wasn’t so ambiguous all along can see the LENR writing on the wall.

      • Rossi’s legal team may be working on a “no-win-no-fees” basis. If so, it would mean that, they have read all his 18 volumes and that they genuinely believe in him. If not, IH will easily outlast him, tie up the case for years and drain him of whatever money he still has.

    • Mike Henderson

      The typical U.S. patent lawsuit takes 2 years, but have gone as long as 15 years.

      http://www.inventionstatistics.com/Duration_of_Patent_Lawsuits_Litigation_Length.html

      • Ged

        Do jury trials play a role in those statistics? I would never want to be on a jury that had to take time out of their lives for two years to hear a case (though, most of the time set aside for a case is the discovery phase and waiting in line for a court date).

  • Job001

    The simplest explaination/theory is IH has been paid to delay. i.e. Take Big money now or assume long term risk and cash flow money later. Hmm, maybe both……
    Like drug industry delay of generics, similar but bigger money.

    Huge money is available from owners of fossil fuels reserves who need to maintain reserve values until the reserves/corporate positions can be sold off.

    Likewise, NBF(Next Big Future) is a strong supporter of nuclear. Nuclear is desperate to get back some glory and maintain any grasp of monopoly power profits possible.

    LENR offers no monopoly power and like renewables are the enemy at NBF, it takes no time at all to discover those biases.

    It’s not rocket science, just “Follow the Money”, “Money Talks”.

  • Job001

    The simplest explaination/theory is IH has been paid to delay. i.e. Take Big money now or assume long term risk and cash flow money later. Hmm, maybe both……
    Like drug industry delay of generics, similar but bigger money.

    Huge money is available from owners of fossil fuels reserves who need to maintain reserve values until the reserves/corporate positions can be sold off.

    Likewise, NBF(Next Big Future) is a strong supporter of nuclear. Nuclear is desperate to get back some glory and maintain any grasp of monopoly power profits possible.

    LENR offers no monopoly power and like renewables are the enemy at NBF, it takes no time at all to discover those biases.

    It’s not rocket science, just “Follow the Money”, “Money Talks”.

    • Bruce__H

      There is absolutely nothing simple about your explanation. On the contrary it is full of complex conspiracies by shadowy powers.

      Of the simple explanations around, two of them would be that IH didn’t have the money for the payment and that Rossi is a fake. Those are simple — and believable.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Rossi said what he said under oath with the penalty of perjury backing it. IH has slandered Rossi, until they can prove their allegations. Simple enough?

        • Brent Buckner

          I think IH has been careful not to libel Rossi in any legally actionable way. They’ve stated that they’ve been unable to substantiate Rossi’s claims, not that Rossi’s claims are not true. EDIT: I’m not sure about how their statement about the lawsuit being meritless could be found libellous.

          • psi2u2

            I agree. They have been careful.

      • kdk

        And yet here we stand in the middle of an enormous data leak showing the lengths that some people will go to in order to keep and get more money. That factors in with Occam’s Razor to fit ALL the data, or the bigger picture, when you have scenarios like this all over with shady business practices.

      • Job001

        Money talks, BS walks. Slander is not science and has cognitive bias reasons, often of a funding biases nature which are detectable. Bias is a bad thing for science resulting in un-replicable results which is one definition of bad science.

        When bribery, influence peddling, extreme lobbing, non transparency, deregulation, decriminalizing corruption are normal, it is not conspiracy but rather SOP(Standard Operating Practice).

        I favor science without slander because it protects or favors the frontiers of knowledge against the mendacity of obsolete wealth self promotion at the expense of science improvement.

        The investor sharks and whales can look out for themselves very well without unsubstantiated silly slander.

      • bachcole

        I.H. could have come to Rossi and said, hey, we only have (a mere) $50 million, can you cut us some slack and we will try to come up with the rest later. But they didn’t. But I don’t even know if that sort of thing happens in businesses.

        The truth is that Rossi drew first blood; it is likely that he wanted to get rid of I.H.

  • Mike Henderson

    An old anecdote about another clever, daring Italian:

    Cristoforo Colombo (we know him as Chistopher Columbus) challenged his bored crew … extra rations to the one who could make a boiled egg stand steady on the rail of the rolling ship. Each sailor tried to gingerly balance the egg and failed. There was grumbling their captain had sent them on a fool’s impossible errand.

    Chris took the egg in his fist and pounded it onto the rail, crushing the bottom centimeter of the shell flat. The egg stood without tipping.

    “A moment ago it was impossible. But now that I’ve shown you how, it is obvious.”

    I will leave it to you to make your own connections.

  • Mike Henderson

    An old anecdote about another clever, daring Italian:

    Cristoforo Colombo (we know him as Chistopher Columbus) challenged his bored crew … extra rations to the one who could make a boiled egg stand steady on the rail of the rolling ship. Each sailor tried to gingerly balance the egg and failed. There was grumbling their captain had sent them on a fool’s impossible errand.

    Chris took the egg in his fist and pounded it onto the rail, crushing the bottom centimeter of the shell flat. The egg stood without tipping.

    “A moment ago it was impossible. But now that I’ve shown you how, it is obvious.”

    I will leave it to you to make your own connections.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Rossi said what he said under oath with the penalty of perjury backing it. IH has slandered Rossi, until they can prove their allegations. Simple enough?

    • Brent Buckner

      I think IH has been careful not to libel Rossi in any legally actionable way. They’ve stated that they’ve been unable to substantiate Rossi’s claims, not that Rossi’s claims are not true. EDIT: I’m not sure about how their statement about the lawsuit being meritless could be found libellous.

      • psi2u2

        I agree. They have been careful.

  • Ged

    Your last paragraph is sadly presumptuous. How do you know he isn’t? How do you know those sources aren’t due to his investigative journalism? It isn’t like you just say “I’m an investigative journalist!” and suddenly the secrets of the universe are open to you. It’s incredibly hard work, and it takes time. Time to track leads, to get information, to cut through misdirection, to find avenues to see behind secrecy and NDAs (and make sure you are doing so legally(!)), getting the confidence of your sources that they won’t be revealed or misquoted or otherwise open to reprisal. Seriously dude, you can’t just tell him “do this” and expect it to suddenly happen, nor do you know what he is doing behind the scenes.

    We’ll see. IH’s defense will reveal a lot more.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    They took the bait (the obsolete E-Cat). Rossi has the E-Cat X and a lawsuit. Win, Win.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    They took the bait (the obsolete E-Cat). Rossi has the E-Cat X and a lawsuit. Win, Win.

  • f sedei

    There is nothing more convincing than honest indignation. Look out IH!

    • bachcole

      I first read you sentence as “honest indigestion”. I think that it works better that way. It doesn’t mean anything, but it is more fun. (:->)

  • f sedei

    There is nothing more convincing than honest indignation. Look out IH!

    • bachcole

      I first read you sentence as “honest indigestion”. I think that it works better that way. It doesn’t mean anything, but it is more fun. (:->)

  • Fastbuck

    Is anyone else curious why Rossi didn’t include the ERV report as an Exhibit in his lawsuit? If the report was positive (which is likely), it would have been a slam dunk for Rossi. By withholding it he is giving IH a way to save face, without losing his leverage.

    I think the ERV report is being used as a tool in negotiating a quick settlement with IH. If IH balks, Rossi can threaten to release the report. If the report is positive, IH can’t afford to let this happen after having convinced investors that the E-cat was for real and later recanting.

    It is obvious to me that Rossi wants to get his products to market asap. He con’t do that if he is tethered to IH, while IH wants to cut it’s loses and move on. Both can have what they need, but only if the report is not released!

    If there is a settlement, I predict all details will be kept secret including the ERV report. Perhaps a negotiated fee will be deposited by IH into an escrow account only to be collected by Rossi if the report isn’t leaked after some period of time.

    If he is as close to production as he says, and has plenty of new financial backing, he no longer needs the report. —just a theory

    • bachcole

      Maybe he wants I.H. to be able to save face.

      If the report is positive, I think that it will be difficult for Rossi to get funding and support if he does not publish the report.

      But I love your question and analysis. I really wonder where that report it.

      • LCD

        Right now the report looks tainted with Rossi friends as the judge so I’m not sure it matters.

        • bachcole

          And how much sense does it make that they are saying that Rossi’s invention does not work while at the same time filling patents on his inventions?

          • LCD

            It could be they filed the patents early to get the priority date but didn’t know if it would yet work, right?

          • bachcole

            No. They are still fighting to get and keep those patents.

            How much worth is there in a patent on how to make a rejuvenating oil from Bigfoot underarm sweat?

        • clovis ray

          if your referring to the ERV he was working for I/H

          • LCD

            Yeah if they signed off on it they are screwed but I was talking more the court of public opinion.

          • clovis ray

            well i don’t know about everyone else, but i would be convinced if i had one, to play with, so the call must go out, ‘I WANT MY E-CAT XQ’ remember when people would shout”i want my mtv”

      • roseland67

        What exactly does a “positive report” mean?
        If Ecat board was polled, what do you think most would say?
        AR keeps saying that but it has never been defined.
        A positive report for him might mean the IH check cleared.

  • bfast

    “but Mats Lewan thinks this could all take years to be resolved.” This is our greatest fear!

    • Roland

      First, the emphasis for manufacture and marketing will shift to Europe where the dispute with IH is irrelevant and the general regulatory and business environment is, by most measures, fairer and where the business case for a new energy source, to nations held hostage to unsavoury oil producers to the east and south, will be very compelling. The end of the North Sea oil play is in sight and the commitment to a carbon free future is high, LENR is perfect for them. Additionally, low cost energy will revitalize the European economies and more than restore competitiveness.

      Secondly, until the US courts rule otherwise IH has no LENR IP nor does it have a valid licensing agreement as they’re now in default through non payment. This allows scope for a entity with greater resources and US clout to pick up the torch of a COP>50 technology in IH’s territories from Leonardo and crush IH in both the arena of public opinion and the courts, when IH objects, in a straight US style power play that reverses what, apparently, IH has tried to do to Rossi.

      It’s much to soon to turn to despair.

      • kdk

        I’m hoping that IH will realize this.

      • All true, although some European states (particularly mine, the UK) tend to act as US proxies in many respects. Our current batch of politicians is also deeply in thrall to the nuclear industry.

        IMHO, Germany would be the best bet for Rossi, as they have closed down their nuclear power stations and desperately need a new source of electricity despite a huge investment in ‘renewables’.

        • DrD

          My guess is Sweden.

    • Obvious

      If another couple of years go by, I should have enough time to make the LENR heat-in-your-hand-coffee-in-a-can. And the tea version, of course. Oh, and soup, noodles, hot cocoa, hot toddies, and a sandwich/bagel/waffle warmer. Disclosure.
      And hair removal wax warmer… Boot warmer… Toilet seat heater…

  • bfast

    “but Mats Lewan thinks this could all take years to be resolved.” This is our greatest fear!

    • Roland

      First, the emphasis for manufacture and marketing will shift to Europe where the dispute with IH is irrelevant and the general regulatory and business environment is, by most measures, fairer and where the business case for a new energy source, to nations held hostage to unsavoury oil producers to the east and south, will be very compelling. The end of the North Sea oil play is in sight and the commitment to a carbon free future is high, LENR is perfect for them. Additionally, low cost energy will revitalize the European economies and more than restore competitiveness.

      Secondly, until the US courts rule otherwise IH has no LENR IP nor does it have a valid licensing agreement as they’re now in default through non payment. This allows scope for a entity with greater resources and US clout to pick up the torch of a COP>50 technology in IH’s territories from Leonardo and crush IH in both the arena of public opinion and the courts, when IH objects, in a straight US style power play that reverses what, apparently, IH has tried to do to Rossi.

      It’s much to soon to turn to despair.

      • kdk

        I’m hoping that IH will realize this.

      • Guest

        Do you actually have any legal knowledge about what state the licensing agreement is in while this plays out in the courts? Or is this just what you think should be the case?

        Because even Leonardo Corp’s press release states that it’s unclear. IH has also stated that Leonardo has breached the contract.

        It appears that the legal status of the licensing agreement is quite a bit more complex than you assume.

        • Roland

          The status of both the IH licensing agreement and any claims by IH to LENR IP based on Rossi/Leonardo patents are in dispute, were Rossi in a position of weakness, i.e. having granted worldwide licensing to IH and possessing no wherewithal to pay lawyers, the prognosis would indeed be much grimmer.

          Fortunately this is not the situation at hand. Though the true strength of Leonardo is unknown to us, and possibly IH as well, until such time as this dispute has been adjudicated by the highest court that consents to hear the case Leonardo could act as though the agreements with IH have no force while they:

          A. Pursue damages and,

          B. Engage much stronger partners than IH for the licenses to distribute a COP>50 technology in territories previously assigned to IH. In light of the current situation I would suggest breaking the former licensed area into smaller units and partnering with entities ready to crush IH, and any current IH partners party to underhanded behaviour, in the courts while the technology continues to be deployed.

          C. Under scenario B the money piles up for Leonardo and the licensees while IH’s former partners cannibalize IH as the legal process quite deliberately drags on and on.

          And yes, these are opinions rendered without specific knowledge but we can hope that Leonardo’s lawyers are much more astute than I and are capable of turning the situation to Rossi’s advantage by viewing this as an opportunity rather than a setback. They certainly appear to be adequately prepared for this conflict from what we’ve learned to date from the available documents.

          • As well as how well, and by whom, Leonardo is now backed, another key to how this pans out may be how well Cherokee Investment have isolated Industrial Heat, and what assets IH currently has.

            If, as I suspect, Cherokee has been (nominally) forwarding funds to IH as required, their assets may be technically small and they might just choose to fold under Leonardo’s pressure rather than go to court. If they’ve sufficiently isolated IH, Cherokee’s assets will be safe, they will have gained all the IP from Rossi they are going to get, and they (Cherokee) have other shell companies to continue with.

            Of course they’ll need to first reassign all IH patents to some new entity, so if we see that happening it will constitute advance warning that IH will declare bankruptcy and the court case will be dropped.

      • bachcole

        Excellent analysis.

      • steph har

        All this mumbo jumbo tango was making me feel apprehensive about this whole business but I found this message from me356 saying he’s now getting COP 2+
        https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2991-Forget-about-the-E-Cat-It-never-worked-Replicators-and-the-Forum-should-focus-on/?postID=16588#post16588

        so things are still moving forward

      • All true, although some European states (particularly mine, the UK) tend to act as US proxies in many respects. Our current batch of politicians is also deeply in thrall to the international nuclear industry.

        IMHO, Germany would be the best bet for Rossi, as they have closed down their nuclear power stations and desperately need a new source of electricity despite a huge investment in ‘renewables’.

        Edit: They also still have massive production facilities and an engineering skills base, both of which are now almost absent in the UK thanks to decades of ‘financialisation’ by politicians serving ‘the city’.

        • DrD

          My guess is Sweden.

      • MArk

        Imagine a giant like Google steps in and takes over what once belongs to IH
        Thing will be on the positive for Rossi

        • roseland67

          MArk,
          Imagine Ecat actually works as stated?

    • Obvious

      If another couple of years go by, I should have enough time to make the LENR heat-in-your-hand-coffee-in-a-can. And the tea version, of course. Oh, and soup, noodles, hot cocoa, hot toddies, and a sandwich/bagel/waffle warmer. Disclosure.
      And hair removal wax warmer… Boot warmer… Toilet seat heater…

    • roseland67

      Blast,
      Greatest fear? Not really,
      Does it work as stated!!!!!!

  • Job001

    Money talks, BS walks. Slander is not science and has cognitive bias reasons, often of a funding biases nature which are detectable. Bias is a bad thing for science resulting in un-replicable results which is one definition of bad science.

    When bribery, influence peddling, extreme lobbing, non transparency, deregulation, decriminalizing corruption are normal, it is not conspiracy but rather SOP(Standard Operating Practice).

    I favor science without slander because it protects or favors the frontiers of knowledge against the mendacity of obsolete wealth self promotion at the expense of science improvement.

    The investor sharks and whales can look out for themselves very well without unsubstantiated silly slander.

  • Frank Acland

    Matt
    April 9, 2016 at 4:55 PM
    At this point is there any possibility of you and IH reconciling outside of court and continuing your work together?

    Andrea Rossi
    April 9, 2016 at 6:20 PM
    Matt:
    Yes.
    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • Robert Dorr

      I think Rossi was responding to Matt’s question regarding whether Rossi had sufficient funds to continue on course with the production of the e-cat. If you look you will see that Matt asked two questions, one right after the other. It was a bit confusing.

    • Buck

      Frank,

      I have copied the two back-to-back questions Matt asked of Rossi. I believe in the context of the two questions, Rossi’s answer is not “Yes” . . . . rather it is effectively “no comment” due to the litigation. I hope this helps resolve a potential misunderstanding.

      Mason

      =============================

      Matt
      April 9, 2016 at 4:55 PM

      At this point is there any possibility of you and IH reconciling outside of court and continuing your work together?

      ~~~~~
      Andrea Rossi
      April 9, 2016 at 6:20 PM

      Matt:

      I cannot answer to this question in positive or in negative, because is related to the litigation on course.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

      ======================
      Matt
      April 9, 2016 at 4:47 PM

      Without the 89 million from IH, how will you start the industrialization process? Do you have another source of financing?

      ~~~~~
      Andrea Rossi
      April 9, 2016 at 6:20 PM

      Matt:

      Yes.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes, thanks for that. I think you are right.

        • NT

          Buck is correct Frank, I see the same thing and Buck just beat me to the posting…

  • kdk

    Penon might find himself in the hot-seat about whether Rossi isn’t having the energy beamed in from aliens in outer space.

    • Ged

      Rossi’s connections are out of this world.

      • NT

        Yes, he answers to a much higher authority!

  • kdk

    Penon might find himself in the hot-seat about if he triple-checked whether Rossi isn’t having the energy beamed in from aliens in outer space.

    • Ged

      Rossi’s connections are out of this world.

      • NT

        Yes, he answers to a much higher authority!

  • bachcole

    Covers the data points, and it makes sense. But I.H.’s response is an extreme over-reaction. Just for those lies (if they are lies) they could get hurt really bad.

    • timycelyn

      Mood I’m in I’d dance on their grave…

      (And as my wife will testify, I never dance!!)

  • bachcole

    Maybe he wants I.H. to be able to save face.

    If the report is positive, I think that it will be difficult for Rossi to get funding and support if he does not publish the report.

    But I love your question and analysis. I really wonder where that report it.

    • LCD

      Right now the report looks tainted with Rossi friends as the judge so I’m not sure it matters.

  • bachcole

    I.H. could have come to Rossi and said, hey, we only have (a mere) $50 million, can you cut us some slack and we will try to come up with the rest later. But they didn’t. But I don’t even know if that sort of thing happens in businesses.

    The truth is that Rossi drew first blood; it is likely that he wanted to get rid of I.H.

  • Jjaroslav

    Aside from the probability that the ecat is now old technology and just a distraction from his latest inovations. I does seem like everyone is following a procedural script.
    Lawsuits can disrupt progress but they can also establish territory.
    It’ll be interesting to watch the play unfold.
    In the long run he’d do better connecting with the likes of Siemens. Splitting from IH allows him to leverage his position.

  • Roland

    The status of both the IH licensing agreement and any claims by IH to LENR IP based on Rossi/Leonardo patents are in dispute, were Rossi in a position of weakness, i.e. having granted worldwide licensing to IH and possessing no wherewithal to pay lawyers, the prognosis would indeed be much grimmer.

    Fortunately this is not the situation at hand. Though the true strength of Leonardo is unknown to us, and possibly IH as well, until such time as this dispute has been adjudicated by the highest court that consents to hear the case Leonardo could act as though the agreements with IH have no force while they:

    A. Pursue damages and,

    B. Engage much stronger partners than IH for the licenses to distribute a COP>50 technology in territories previously assigned to IH. In light of the current situation I would suggest breaking the former licensed area into smaller units and partnering with entities ready to crush IH, and any current IH partners party to underhanded behaviour, in the courts while the technology continues to be deployed.

    C. Under scenario B the money piles up for Leonardo and the licensees while IH’s former partners cannibalize IH as the legal process quite deliberately drags on and on.

    And yes, these are opinions rendered without specific knowledge but we can hope that Leonardo’s lawyers are much more astute than I and are capable of turning the situation to Rossi’s advantage by viewing this as an opportunity rather than a setback. They certainly appear to be adequately prepared for this conflict from what we’ve learned to date from the available documents.

    • As well as how well, and by whom, Leonardo is now backed, another key to how this pans out may be how well Cherokee Investment have isolated Industrial Heat, and what assets IH currently has.

      If, as I suspect, Cherokee has been (nominally) forwarding funds to IH as required, their assets may be technically small and they might just choose to fold under Leonardo’s pressure rather than go to court. If they’ve sufficiently isolated IH, Cherokee’s assets will be safe, they will have gained all the IP from Rossi they are going to get, and they (Cherokee) have other shell companies to continue with.

      Of course they’ll need to first reassign all IH patents to some new entity, so if we see that happening it will constitute advance warning that IH will declare bankruptcy and the court case will be dropped.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Is nicHenergy safe or will any of this have an effect on them?
    http://energycatalyzer3.com/rossi/is-piantelli-close-to-commercializing-technology

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Is nicHenergy safe or will any of this have an effect on them?
    http://energycatalyzer3.com/rossi/is-piantelli-close-to-commercializing-technology

  • Trust is now absent. Without trust, even business relationships become difficult or impossible.

  • Maksimov Eugene

    (US20160051957) Energy-Producing Reaction Devices, Systems and Related Methods

    Application Number: 14627828 Application Date: 20.02.2015

    Publication Number: 20160051957 Publication Date: 25.02.2016

    Industrial Heat, LLC

    Andrea Rossi

    Thomas Barker Dameron

  • georgehants

    Another Wonderful reflection on America, the corrupt capitalistic capital of the World.
    The only thing that matters is does Rossi have proof of Cold Fusion, all this bullshit is irrelevant, but normal in an insane society.
    Where is the proof, Rossi is the key, SHOW THE PROOF, bugger money and riches, think of people.
    Prove Cold Fusion works, he has had five years playing silly little capitalist boy games, now time to grow-up and end this complete farce.
    I think.

    • DrD

      Good morning George,
      I thought we all appreciated that most of the world won’t accept the proof, no matter how rigorous. AR has the answer “forget the “proof”, just mass distribute”. That’s what he says he’s doing, faster than before.
      If he succeeds then the law suit is a side show but make no mistakes, there’s powerful opposition and IH could well be part of it.

      • georgehants

        DrD all agreed but it is not correct to say no proof except “mass Distribute” is the only way.
        Mr Rossi has had the “secret” for five years, if it is published then within a very short time even small concerns such as MFMP could verify it within weeks.
        It is all to do with money, profits, greed, this World needs Cold Fusion, it does not need rich people for anything, only those working for society are of any use and should be rewarded, as Mr. Rossi should be well rewarded by society not by a system that we have all witnessed for 27 years as corrupt inefficient and basically crazy.
        The only thing that matters in a sane society is the “secret” he supposedly has found to be released NOW.
        I think

        • DrD

          Sorry George but with respect I’m sure the world still wouldn’t believe.
          I may be wrong but I trust him and I expect him to achieve exactly what you describe and I hope he benefits too.

          • georgehants

            Ha, well five years and counting.

          • Omega Z

            George,

            My son was having auto problems. I told him what to do to fix it.
            When I returned latter, I asked him how it went. He said it’s still broke.
            I said, did you do what I told you?
            He says, NO, Your way was to hard. I did it my way.

            Forehead Slap!

            I’m certain Rossi has provided more then enough info for others to follow suit. Maybe not obtaining COP>50, But at least multiple COP and the path to improve. However, as with my son above, everyone wants to do it their way. It doesn’t matter what Rossi says. People will only hear what they want to hear.

            With the Lugano report, everyone discovered Lithium. I’m quite certain Lithium was disclosed by Rossi long before that. Shielding was also disclosed early on. One being Lead, and if one read all that’s been posted somewhere before, they would also be aware that Rossi has used Boron and Tungsten.

            Note: corruption, greed, cronyism. None have anything to do with capitalism. This is all about people. Starting with the 1st humans stealing nuts and berries or animal hides from his neighbors cave before any kind of monetary system even existed. The cure. Eliminate people…

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            People. Behaviour. Exactly. Subscribed, in toto.

    • Roland

      You think?

      So now Andrea is but a mere petulant child bereft a functioning phenomenological grasp of the situation and he should immediately surrender to your superior wisdom and just do as he’s told.

      I see things much more clearly now…

      The proof of LENR is right at hand for the literate minded in the form of the compendium of documents behind the links at the top of the page. Simply read them.

      If you’re struggling to understand them (as is pretty much everyone here will, emphatically including myself, with the more esoteric aspects of some of the papers) I’m sure, if you asked politely, any number of folks here would help you and short list the essentials.

      In a pinch you could simply watch the documentary about the SPAWAR LENR project, the link’s kicking around here someplace, and accept what those scientists say about their work to their interviewer and the camera. They figured out how to make LENR work each and every time, and flat out say so, and tell you how they did it to boot.

      This was years ago. It didn’t, to use a popular sports metaphor, move the ball an inch.

      Rossi is playing multi-dimensional chess with, apparently, some facility and, unfortunately, you’re playing checkers using just the black squares and insisting, rather stridently, that he get hip…

      • Roland

        bereft of a functioning…

        🙂

        • Roland

          Well George while America isn’t the least corrupt nation on earth, 27th on Transparency International’s rankings if memory serves, but it’s miles better than the most corrupt nations, and if we’re to exclude all but the capitalist states we’d have to drop N. Korea which, oddly enough is way, way down at the bottom of the list anyways.

          You could make a case for Venezuela lacking a functioning capitalist system, but then again there’s not much system of any kind left and, oddly, they’re also down there at the bottom of the list. Oh, then there’s China; another sterling example of communism in action; oops another bottom dweller in the Transparency International rankings and the iron rice bowl kind of got lost in the stampede for a pot of gold.

          I guess there’s always the Cuban model to aspire to; a chicken in the odd pot and all the veggies you can grow in the back yard with hand tools.

          The closest thing to functional socialism that scores high on every index of social development and rates right at the top of Transparency International’s corruption rankings happens to be at the very centre of Rossi’s plan for manufacturing and deploying E-cats, it’s called Sweden, you’ve probably heard of it, it’s in Europe.

      • georgehants

        Roland thanks for reply, you have made no point that in any way negates the clear points that I made, only stated your disagreement based on your apparent philosophical leaning.
        Five years Rossi has had the secret and counting and not a hint of any benefit to society.

  • georgehants

    Another Wonderful reflection on America, the corrupt capitalistic capital of the World.
    The only thing that matters is does Rossi have proof of Cold Fusion, all this bullshit is irrelevant, but normal in an insane society.
    Where is the proof, Rossi is the key, SHOW THE PROOF, bugger money and riches, think of people.
    Prove Cold Fusion works, he has had five years playing silly little capitalist boy games, now time to grow-up and end this complete farce.
    I think.

    • DrD

      Good morning George,
      I thought we all appreciated that most of the world won’t accept the proof, no matter how rigorous. AR has the answer “forget the “proof”, just mass distribute”. That’s what he says he’s doing, faster than before.
      If he succeeds then the law suit is a side show but make no mistakes, there’s powerful opposition and IH could well be part of it.

      • georgehants

        DrD all agreed but it is not correct to say no proof except “mass Distribute” is the only way.
        Mr Rossi has had the “secret” for five years, if it is published then within a very short time even small concerns such as MFMP could verify it within weeks.
        It is all to do with money, profits, greed, this World needs Cold Fusion, it does not need rich people for anything, only those working for society are of any use and should be rewarded, as Mr. Rossi should be well rewarded by society not by a system that we have all witnessed for 27 years as corrupt inefficient and basically crazy.
        The only thing that matters in a sane society is the “secret” he supposedly has found to be released NOW.
        I think

        • DrD

          Sorry George but with respect I’m sure the world still wouldn’t believe.
          I may be wrong but I trust him and I expect him to achieve mostly what you describe and I hope he benefits too.
          Edit, changed “exactly” to “mostly”.

          • georgehants

            Ha, well five years and counting.

          • Omega Z

            George,

            My son was having auto problems. I told him what to do to fix it.
            When I returned latter, I asked him how it went. He said it’s still broke.
            I said, did you do what I told you?
            He says, NO, Your way was to hard. I did it my way.

            Forehead Slap!

            I’m certain Rossi has provided more then enough info for others to follow suit. Maybe not obtaining COP>50, But at least multiple COP and the path to improve. However, as with my son above, everyone wants to do it their way. It doesn’t matter what Rossi says. People will only hear what they want to hear.

            With the Lugano report, everyone discovered Lithium. I’m quite certain Lithium was disclosed by Rossi long before that. Shielding was also disclosed early on. One being Lead, and if one read all that’s been posted somewhere before, they would also be aware that Rossi has used Boron and Tungsten.

            Note: corruption, greed, cronyism. None have anything to do with capitalism. This is all about people. Starting with the 1st humans stealing nuts and berries or animal hides from his neighbors cave before any kind of monetary system even existed. The cure. Eliminate people…

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            People. Behaviour. Exactly. Subscribed, in toto.

    • Roland

      You think?

      So now Andrea is but a mere petulant child bereft a functioning phenomenological grasp of the situation and he should immediately surrender to your superior wisdom and just do as he’s told.

      I see things much more clearly now…

      The proof of LENR is right at hand for the literate minded in the form of the compendium of documents behind the links at the top of the page. Simply read them.

      If you’re struggling to understand them (as is pretty much everyone here will, emphatically including myself, with the more esoteric aspects of some of the papers) I’m sure, if you asked politely, any number of folks here would help you and short list the essentials.

      In a pinch you could simply watch the documentary about the SPAWAR LENR project, the link’s kicking around here someplace, and accept what those scientists say about their work to their interviewer and the camera. They figured out how to make LENR work each and every time, and flat out say so, and tell you how they did it to boot.

      This was years ago. It didn’t, to use a popular sports metaphor, move the ball an inch.

      Rossi is playing multi-dimensional chess with, apparently, some facility and, unfortunately, you’re playing checkers using just the black squares and insisting, rather stridently, that he get hip…

      • Roland

        bereft of a functioning…

        🙂

        • Roland

          Well George while America isn’t the least corrupt nation on earth, 27th on Transparency International’s rankings if memory serves, but it’s miles better than the most corrupt nations, and if we’re to exclude all but the capitalist states we’d have to drop N. Korea which, oddly enough is way, way down at the bottom of the list anyways.

          You could make a case for Venezuela lacking a functioning capitalist system, but then again there’s not much system of any kind left and, oddly, they’re also down there at the bottom of the list. Oh, then there’s China; another sterling example of communism in action; oops another bottom dweller in the Transparency International rankings and the iron rice bowl kind of got lost in the stampede for a pot of gold.

          I guess there’s always the Cuban model to aspire to; a chicken in the odd pot and all the veggies you can grow in the back yard with hand tools.

          The closest thing to functional socialism that scores high on every index of social development and rates right at the top of Transparency International’s corruption rankings happens to be at the very centre of Rossi’s plan for manufacturing and deploying E-cats, it’s called Sweden, you’ve probably heard of it, it’s in Europe.

      • georgehants

        Roland thanks for reply, you have made no point that in any way negates the clear points that I made, only stated your disagreement based on your apparent philosophical leaning.
        Five years Rossi has had the secret and counting and not a hint of any benefit to society.

  • timycelyn

    Mood I’m in I’d dance on their grave…

  • Jerry Soloman

    Matts is on point again here with a very good overview to events.

  • Jerry Soloman

    Matts is on point again here with a very good overview to events.

  • jousterusa

    Mats, if you read this, I’d be delighted to correct the six or seven grammatical issues in this essay of yours, which I really enjoyed!

    • Alain Samoun

      Is that really important at this point Jouster?

      • jousterusa

        it is to Mars!

  • jousterusa

    Mats, if you read this, I’d be delighted to correct the six or seven grammatical issues in this essay of yours, which I really enjoyed!

    • Alain Samoun

      Is that really important at this point Jouster?

      • jousterusa

        it is to Mars!

  • akupaku

    From all news and comments that I have read so far (and there are too many for me to read them all!) I so far conclude the following and trying to keep it simple:

    IH does not want to pay Rossi 89 M$ because they think that Rossi has not told them enough of how to replicate his work, i.e. they could not independently get it to work well enough. Especially they have not received specs about the recent E-Cat improvements.

    Rossi has for some reason (fairly or unfairly) become suspicious of IH’s motives and actions and stopped giving them necessary information especially about recent improvements to E-Cat (namely X/Quark variants) and now wants out from his agreements with IH.

    Rossi might have a difficult personality to deal with and might even suffer from some degree of paranoia (just a thought!).

    Fraud or dishonesty on either side seems unlikely to me.

    The expectations don’t seem to meet, both sides have probably different understanding of what has been agreed upon.

    The legal details and implications are all Greek to me, i.e. I don’t understand any of it. ;o)

  • Otto1923

    What we EXPECTED was a quick transition from r&d right into production. What we GOT was yet another delay at exactly the point where one might expect to find it if this whole affair was somewhat less than genuine.

    Perhaps there will be no delay, or at least no more delays beyond this one.

    “A woman with a staggering record of fraud, deceit, lies, and broken promises concluded a letter to the parole board with, “I’ve let a lot of people down… One is only as good as her reputation and name. My word is as good as gold.””

    -That woman was a psychopath. But we know that Rossi is completely sane and totally incapable of self-delusion, right?

    I for one sincerely hope so.

    • Tom59

      Rossi developed this technology to this point making tremendous personal sacrifices in a hostile and humiliating environment. No one in his situation would easily give up control without being 100% certain that it goes in the right direction. Playing by Rossi’s rules, whatever they are, may be the best option considering what’s at stake.

      • Otto1923

        Yah. According to him. Any independent corroboration as to his personal suffering?

        And it’s easy to give up control of a process that doesn’t exist, if it means that process gets legitimized. And funded.

  • Otto1923

    If its real and production is imminent then $89M is chump change. I can’t understand why IH would declare a failure if they had so much to lose.

    It makes no sense unless it WAS a failure.

  • LuFong

    Maybe Darden/Vaughn wanted to delay the 1 year test until after they had independently verified Rossi’s technology. After trying Rossi became pro-active and set up the test himself. A year later still no success so they fail to pay the $89M. (As support, Brian Ahern, who claims to have spoken with IH, says that IH was not permitted to independently meter the test and were rebuffed by Rossi in their replication attempts). But in the meantime they suspect that Rossi does have something so they continue to sell and take out patents in hope that they are successful in discovering the full extent of Rossi’s IP.

    Not saying that this is correct but there are many ways to spin this story. For me I don’t care so much if IH has the IP or not. I want to know whether the E-Cat works.

  • Jimr

    Yes I meant released to the public.

  • Michael W Wolf

    IH built and tested a reactor with verified by them COP of 11. They filed a patent that is tied to an oath they signed. For them to say in a public statement they could not replicate is at best false through incompetence or at worst an outright lie. That is on record. As far as we know, because some of our people here have investments tied to that money IH got, they used that info to raise 60 million dollars. They gave Rossi 11.5 million. They have completely contradicted themselves and now have an extra 48.5 million in their pockets. What you are saying is ignorant of the things we know and boarder line slanderous. I wonder what their investors think of that? Shouldn’t IH either pay Rossi or give the money back to their investors for misleading them?

  • Well you’ve managed to get ‘fraud’, ‘incompetence’, ‘bogus’, ‘gullible marks’ and ‘puppet master’ into two short posts, but you seem to have omitted the all-important word ‘scam’, and any reference to Rossi’s ‘criminal’ past. Perhaps next time?

  • LuFong

    Rossi’s contract was to support IH for a year after the validation. There was a clause perhaps, if I’m reading the contract correctly, for Rossi to continue this support as Chief Scientist after this period but the terms of that agreement are not known. With the delay in setting up the GPT, it’s possible that IH’s time with Rossi ran out and Rossi did not feel very generous for various reasons.

  • Doggy

    Rossi was making notes in his black book using codes. It’s apparent that he was paranoid and keeps secret, which is understandable. However, I can images Rossis black book made IH paranoid as well. Now I’m left to wonder how much the Chinese know and how fast they can out manoeuvre US.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I really don’t care if china has lenr first. As long as we have it in the world. The rest of the world getting it, will be academic.

  • Doggy

    Rossi was making notes in his black book using codes. It’s apparent that he was paranoid and keeps secret, which is understandable. However, I can images Rossis black book made IH paranoid as well. Now I’m left to wonder how much the Chinese know and how fast they can out manoeuvre US.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I really don’t care if china has lenr first. As long as we have it in the world. The rest of the world getting it, will be academic.

  • LCD

    Yeah if they signed off on it they are screwed but I was talking more the court of public opinion.

  • LCD

    It could be they filed the patents early to get the priority date but didn’t know if it would yet work, right?

  • Mark S.

    “Guest” posted this on LENR Forum:

    Here are the rumors I have heard:

    1) Rossi moved forward with Penon as ERV for yearlong test without
    formal agreement from IH. Rossi likely believed that since Penon
    performed the 24 hr test he did not need IH’s approval (and contract
    language might support this).

    2) IH cared very little about the yearlong test, as what mattered to
    them was the transfer of all know-how that was to immediately follow the
    $10M payment. Therefore, they decided not to rock the boat over Penon
    or the apparent shell ‘customer’, as the test held no meaning for them.
    Being able to make the tech on their own was critical, as that would
    allow them to test to their heart’s content and both resolve any
    remaining doubts from independent tests as well as make refinements to
    optimize performance. Didn’t matter to them if the yearlong test was or
    was not a sham.

    3) On several occasions prior to conclusion of the yearlong test IH
    reached out to Rossi indicating they were having a hard time replicating
    his results and asking for his help. Rossi’s supposed response was that
    he was focused on the yearlong test and would only help them after the
    $89M payment (which seems to violate contracted terms).

    4) Sounds like Rossi constructed the contract as it was apparently
    shopped around to other potential investors in more or less the same
    form who rejected it on the basis that Rossi wanted installment payments
    and no ownership in the partner entity. Other potential investors
    worried this was a hallmark of a potential scam. So unlikely that Rossi
    was duped or tricked into any of the contract terms (and Rossi’s
    complaints about what IH has been doing regarding the IP all appear to
    be ok under terms of contract).

    This paragraph is all my interpretation – IH viewed the $11.5M as a
    necessary “ante-up” payment to get access to the know-how. It was a
    substantial sum, but one they could afford to write off if things didn’t
    pan out. Now the test is completed and Rossi has moved the goalposts
    refusing to help them independently make it work until after the $89M
    payment despite contract clearly stating that was to happen as a prior
    condition. IH has invested in other LENR researchers and is seeing
    encouraging results, they have also seen encouraging results when Rossi
    has been directly involved in tests so they want to keep the contract
    open, but that is not enough to justify paying $89M more on hope that
    Rossi will finally show them how to replicate. From their perspective a
    pre-condition of the $89M payment has not been fulfilled by Rossi, so
    they are legally justified in delaying and the contract remains in place
    along with all other conditions (e.g. first right to purchase
    additional territories, Rossi non-compete, access to all new inventions,
    etc.) until Rossi meets contracted terms. They are at a stalemate, but
    one that legally appears to favor IH despite the fact that Rossi has
    spun public opinion in his favor with selective truths and partial
    statements. To be clear – I don’t think this is fraud, I think Rossi
    truly believes in the results he is generating, but I also think it most
    likely that due to his own paranoia he is holding back from IH and
    mischaracterizing them as trying to screw him out of his money.

    • wpj

      The contract also said that IH was to perform the year long test within 120 days, whether they liked it or not, so this was an initial breach of contract which the parties decided to ignore.

      Now gone from “Rossi says” to “Guest says”…………

      All the above does sound plausible and I’m sure it is not as black and white as Rossi implies. Having said that, IH did obtain funding from Woodford while implying that everything was rosy in the garden.

      Who knows?

  • LuFong

    Thanks for this. There is so much stuff going around it’s difficult to keep up with it.

    One point: Rossi is contractually only obligated to help IH for 1 year from the completion of the Validation test, which I think occurred May 1, 2013 in Italy. See Section 13.1 of the license agreement. I don’t believe the amendments extended this period. There may have been a further extension of this support with Rossi as Chief Scientist but we don’t have that agreement but this part of the agreement in section 13.1 is not very clear to me.

    This is how I read the license agreement anyways. I have been wondering why Rossi wasn’t asked to help. IH may have set Rossi off and he stuck to the letter of the agreement here.

    • Guest

      Agree the contract here is less clear, it does state “not less than 12 months”, so we know it’s for at least a year but perhaps longer.

      • LuFong

        Does your source say anything about whether IH is questioning the results of the ERV?

    • Michael W Wolf

      There was a self proclaimed experienced lawyer who said Rossi and his attorneys were very shrewd in the wording of the contract. 13.1 may be one reason why. IH not finding a test site is the clue for me. They were either foolish or malicious in that breach of contract.

      • LuFong

        I think Rossi’s wife maybe wrote the basic agreement. It’s a poorly written agreement as I see it.

        It appears to me from the license agreement that IH is responsible for the finding the plant. (It’s not stated explicitly but looks like it’s implied). If Rossi can show that IH made no real attempt to fulfill this part of the contract, or if IH cannot show that they made a serious and continuing attempt to fulfill this, then I think Rossi wins. As I said earlier, I believe Rossi did not turn over all IP. If it can be shown that IH made a strong attempt to fulfill this part of the contract and worked with Rossi on this, then I think Rossi will be found to have broken the contract.

        I’m not a lawyer and there may be other factors but that is how I see it at this time.

  • wpj

    The contract also said that IH was to perform the year long test within 120 days, whether they liked it or not, so this was an initial breach of contract which the parties decided to ignore.

    Now gone from “Rossi says” to “Guest says”…………

    All the above does sound plausible and I’m sure it is not as black and white as Rossi implies. Having said that, IH did obtain funding from Woodford while implying that everything was rosy in the garden.

    Who knows?

  • Curbina

    I think this post should be updated with a follow up blog article of Mats Lewan in which he presents an hypothesis of what could be the other side of the story, from IH’s poingt of view. I really think that the pro IH arguments, mostly based in the “Guest” comments, is a stretch. The mere idea that IH would have decided to “play along” with Rossi without much interest is ludicrous. That they decided to pay the 10 millions as an “ante” is also ridiculous. But is good to know arguments in both sides of the coin in order to have a complete picture, and for that alone I would like to ask Frank to put an update to this article with the new Mats Lewan hypothesis.

    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/

  • Curbina

    I think this post should be updated with a follow up blog article of Mats Lewan in which he presents an hypothesis of what could be the other side of the story, from IH’s point of view. I really think that the pro IH arguments, mostly based in the “Guest” comments, is a stretch. The mere idea that IH would have decided to “play along” with Rossi without much interest is ludicrous. That they decided to pay the 10 millions as an “ante” is also ridiculous. But is good to know arguments in both sides of the coin in order to have a complete picture, and for that alone I would like to ask Frank to put an update to this article with the new Mats Lewan hypothesis.

    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/