Jed Rothwell: Industrial Heat Don't Believe ERV Report

Jed Rothwell has been quite active on the Vortex-l forum talking about the current situation between Andrea Rossi and Industrial Heat. He says that he is in touch with IH and that they have been talking to him about the ERV report.

Here is what he posted in this message today:

“They say the one-year test did not work. Believe me, that is what they say.

“Yes, the ERV report said the gadget works. That is what the lawsuit papers say. I.H. disagrees with ERV report.

“Let me try to clear up a few points of confusion regarding this subject.

“I did not mean I know there is a second, formal report. I just meant that I.H. has sent experts, and they disagree with the Penon report. I know they have written a report. I don’t know if it is another official ERV listed in
the contract.”

So this is a very strange turn of events. It’s one thing to argue over the contents of the license agreement, but to challenge the content and conclusion of the person who was authorized to take measurements in the test and report results is something very different.

Basically it sounds to me like IH is not disputing that ERV Penon wrote a very positive report — Jed Rothwell is saying that they don’t believe it.

Jed Rothwell is saying here that IH has been taking its own measurements from experts who disagree with the conclusions of Fabio Penon. Who are these experts? What measurements did they take? On what grounds do they disagree with Penon? These are the questions that will have to be asked.

Interestingly AR has said that there has been continuous 24/7 hour video surveillance of the test. He also has said that he set up his own measurement system, using the exact same meters as the ERV, and putting them in series with those of the ERV. He said his results were the same as the ERV (within the margin of error of the instruments used)

If the upcoming lawsuit comes down to having the jury pick between two competing reports, it could be a very technical trial.

  • It all sounds ridiculous on so many levels.

    • Like I said earlier. Somebody is playing us. Maybe they both are.

      • Ged

        That would be the most amazing twist of all.

        • There is zero chance that we’re not being played by somebody at this point. Sharpen your thinking caps folks. We enter the fog of war.

        • Michael Coplon

          Yes, suppose that they are both in cahoots, doing this to get more publicity. Not a bad idea considering that the press still is ignoring stories about LENR. I hope this is the case, but….

    • Stefenski

      It’s doing my head in ..
      I’m off to get some respite by solving the Mary Celeste & Dyatlov Pass mysteries.

  • Andrea Calaon

    A technical trial would be good.

  • Ged

    As I posted in the other thread, Jed forgets that IH must also prove its claims. Both parties must present proof. So, we just have to wait and see what IH presents and if it does actually have proof or not.

    Obviously Jed has not seen any of this proof and just completely trusts whatever source is telling him things. Considering the backpedding he has had to do on this, that may not be a wise move, but who knows. We will see soon.

    • Brokeeper

      I agree with you. It is hard to make many comments on any of this. How do you make sense out of non-sense?

      • Brokeeper

        (this comment was meant for a response to bachcole but applies to Ged too ???)

        • Ged

          Applicable to us all ;).

  • bachcole

    There are whacked out people so whacked out that they can get other people to believe their fantasies. The Heaven’s Gate whack-pair comes to mind. These are people who can convince other gullible people of their whack-fantasies.

    On the other hand, why is Tom Darden and Industrial Heat so busy applying for patents still. If there was nothing there, how come they are so keen on owning this alleged “nothing”.

    • Dave Lawton

      Hail Bopp**

    • Dave

      They might as well apply for patents. If it doesn’t really work, they’re only out the cost of the patent application. If it does work, it’s worth big money.

    • Dave

      They might as well apply for patents. If it doesn’t really work, they’re only out the cost of the patent application. If it does work, it’s worth big money.

  • Publius

    Something people forget is that measuring the heat transfer of a condensed matter nuclear reaction is just as difficult as creating, controlling and replicating it. I really don’t trust anything that is not measured by SRI or the equivalent.

    • Not by a factor of 6 – 50+ it isn’t.

      • Publius

        You are simplifying the measurement issues. It’s actually very difficult to do it. Ask Ed Storms or Mike McKubre.
        http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEcalorimetr.pdf

        • Electric in. Simple to measure.

          Heat out. Simple to measure as temperature change in volume of water. At ratios of 6 or better, steam quality and any of the more subtle issues can be completely discounted as far as demonstrating over-unity. Measurement difficulty is a total red herring on a 1 year long test with such wide margins, redundant measurements and an actual customer (we’re told).

          • wpj

            The hot water is being returned to the plant (we have seen the pictures), so it’s not that straightforward. You would need to know the temp of water/steam out and the return temp. I agree that, in a continuous 24h/day process you should soon read steady state which will make things a lot easier.

            The client has said that 1 MW is needed so a simple measure of consumed electricity ought to be enough.

          • “hot water is being returned to the plant”

            That makes things even simpler! The plant, the ‘system load’, represesnts a veritable “Flow calorimeter” (gets rid of heat in a measured manner) if (1) the water flow rate is known AND (2) the plant input and output temps are known!

          • “hot water is being returned to the plant”

            That makes things even simpler! The plant, the ‘system load’, represesnts a veritable “Flow calorimeter” (gets rid of heat in a measured manner) if (1) the water flow rate is known AND (2) the plant input and output temps are known!

        • Slad

          Those two ain’t measuring MW’s

        • BillH

          I’d expect data loggers for everything, not noting down figures ad hoc. You need to monitor the temperature inside the reactors second by second and set alarm levels if temperatures go out of spec. If thermal runaway occurred I’d want to leave the container very quickly.

        • BillH

          I’d expect data loggers for everything, not noting down figures ad hoc. You need to monitor the temperature inside the reactors second by second and set alarm levels if temperatures go out of spec. If thermal runaway occurred I’d want to leave the container very quickly.

    • Slad

      It really isn’t that difficult. A decent wattmeter and some simple instruments in the steam pipe are really all that’s necessary.

  • deleo77

    It also begs the question, how can anyone screw up so bad with their measurements that they get a COP of 50 when in reality it is a null result? Even though Penon is not a Phd, I just don’t know how this could happen. Maybe someone else could explain a measurement error that bad.

    Or of course we could be talking fraud. But would Penon expose himself to the risk of being caught? He knows that IH could send their own people in there to measure, and had their own employees on site, and that they are well financed and experienced with litigation. Penon could be personally sued for fraud. How much would he need to be paid to be in on a scam? Can’t they track financial flows pretty well these days?

    • Frank Acland

      AR has said everything has been collected on camera — if so, any point in the test could be revisited.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        I don’t see how or what difference a video camera would make here? It not clear if the video camera is just on the plant, or on the meters or both?

        And the above does not matter. The simple matter or issue is IH does not believe the ERV. The camera might show some IH people dropping by and placing some meters on the system, but what difference and how would that help or hurt anything in regards to this issue?

        The issue is not that the ERV report exists, but IH does not believe the report. Some camera on the plant will do little if anything in this regards.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • wpj

          JR say that IH sent in “experts”. Who are these and what equipment did they use? Should all be on the video.

      • BillH

        Nice little factoid there Frank, let’s hope so.

    • Slad

      Given a simple COP=1 boiler it’s possible to get COP=18 if you ignore wet/dry steam, and measure the power in “incorrectly”.

      Messing up worse than that, ie. *average* COP=50 would take some special skills.

      It doesn’t take a PhD to use a few pitot tubes and a thermometer…

      • wpj

        You can’t fool the electricity meter (unless you are growing cannabis!).

        • Slad

          I “have heard” the best technique is to rip the wires out of the wall below the meter…

          • wpj

            Indeed; I have watched the police programmes. Clearly AR has been a naughty boy over this past year. Something else to add to his list.

          • Slad

            I know what I’d do if I had a spare shipping container

          • wpj

            Watch out for those helicopters with IR detectors.

          • Slad

            And a backhoe…

          • wpj

            Got me with that one.

          • psi2u2

            Very well put.

      • kdk

        I was thinking the same thing… I was slipshod and I never messed up that bad on a high school science lab.

        I don’t think Penon bungled it.

  • deleo77

    It also begs the question, how can anyone screw up so bad with their measurements that they get a COP of 50 when in reality it is a null result? Even though Penon is not a Phd, I just don’t know how this could happen. Maybe someone else could explain a measurement error that bad.

    Or of course we could be talking fraud. But would Penon expose himself to the risk of being caught? He knows that IH could send their own people in there to measure, and had their own employees on site, and that they are well financed and experienced with litigation. Penon could be personally sued for fraud. How much would he need to be paid to be in on a scam? Can’t they track financial flows pretty well these days?

    • Frank Acland

      AR has said everything has been collected on camera — if so, any point in the test could be revisited.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        I don’t see how or what difference a video camera would make here? It not clear if the video camera is just on the plant, or on the meters or both?

        And the above does not matter. The simple matter or issue is IH does not believe the ERV. The camera might show some IH people dropping by and placing some meters on the system, but what difference and how would that help or hurt anything in regards to this issue?

        The issue is not that the ERV report exists, but IH does not believe the report. Some camera on the plant will do little if anything in this regards.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • wpj

          JR say that IH sent in “experts”. Who are these and what equipment did they use? Should all be on the video.

      • BillH

        Nice little factoid there Frank, let’s hope so.

      • BillH

        Nice little factoid there Frank, let’s hope so.

    • Slad

      Given a standard COP=1 boiler it’s possible to get COP=18 if you ignore wet/dry steam, and measure the power in “incorrectly”.

      Messing up worse than that, ie. an *average* COP=50 would take some special skills.

      It doesn’t take a PhD to use a few pitot tubes, a vortex vane and a few thermometers…

      • wpj

        You can’t fool the electricity meter (unless you are growing cannabis!).

        • Guest

          it probably wouldn’t be the “energy in” part that would be under dispute, more likely the “energy out” part of the calculation – especially if the heat wasn’t being used in any type of measured/known production activity.

          • wpj

            So the MD of this unit (who supposedly met IH, Woodford, Chinese) was another actor in Rossi’s deception? Then there was no scaled down production facility for which the precise energy requirement was known?

          • Guest

            I have no idea, but in hindsight knowing what we do now about the sharing of president between Leonardo and the customer, as well as the fact that the customer was not a pre-existing production facility but rather set up just to test the 1MW unit I find some of Rossi’s historical comments to be potentially misleading. So that part of it seems to be the weakest link of the story.

        • Slad

          I “have heard” the best technique is to rip the wires out of the wall below the meter…

          • wpj

            Indeed; I have watched the police programmes. Clearly AR has been a naughty boy over this past year. Something else to add to his list.

          • Slad

            I know what I’d do if I had a spare shipping container

          • wpj

            Watch out for those helicopters with IR detectors.

          • Slad

            And a backhoe

          • wpj

            Got me with that one.

          • $6446788

            You can also slide a piece of film and block the meter. I have seen it done

      • kdk

        I was thinking the same thing… I was slipshod sometimes, but I never messed up that bad on a high school science lab.

        I don’t think Penon bungled it.

  • TheTruthIsOutThere

    We’ve seen this script been played few years ago with Defkalion.
    Inventor “delivers”, investor does not pay.
    I had the “scene” on my daily reading radar for five years.
    Not any more.
    Tired and sick with still nothing solid and undoubtful announced.

  • wpj

    IH has sent experts. Frank should really ask who these “experts” are as they, clearly, would have had to set up their equipment next to the ERV’s and Rossi’s to refute the results.

  • wpj

    IH has sent experts. Frank should really ask who these “experts” are as they, clearly, would have had to set up their equipment next to the ERV’s and Rossi’s to refute the results.

  • Patrik Jonsson

    If Rossi’s results were the same as the ERV (within the margin of error of the instruments used). Why don’t he release his own results? I doubt his data is bound by NDA.

  • adriano

    Two different guys measured the same thing and they had different results. All this story will take years to be settled in a court

  • Thomas Baccei

    The one bias everyone here seems to have is that Rossi is rational. If the test were successful in reports by Penon and/or other observers, it would be totally insane for IH to rock the boat, Tom Darden et. al. have no history of instability or deceit. Rossi does. It is hard to understand how Rossi could have “passed” the earliest short period test, but there must have been reason for IH to proceed with the year long test, risking the (relatively) short change of a few million against the possibility of almost infinite returns if Rossi had the real deal. Any other view of this is just plain wishful thinking. The similarity of the Defkalion adventure is very compelling. Rossi must have a trick up his sleeve to convince the unwary that his gizmo works – for the SHORT TERM. Under longer scrutiny it simply breaks down, and that, in a nutshell explains both DGH and IH.
    A prediction: This suit will never see the light of day. It will be in the interest of both parties to let it languish for a fairly long time, and then reach an unpublished settlement. Rossi to keep the fantasy alive as long as he can (he clearly needs to be in the spotlight) and IH to avoid embarrassment and save the real costs of litigation = delaying court action is not that expensive.

    • Buck

      I think your hypothetical argument is the funniest of all for one simple reason: the same could be said of Darden.

      In his case, it would be a level of greed that causes him to recognize the value of a COP = +11 (per his filed patent) upon the world energy markets measured in the trillions. A level of greed that clouds the importance of working with the inventor of “cold fire” so as to collect his (Darden’s) financial rewards for his licensed markets which equate to about 40% of global GDP. Instead his Greed-is-Good judgment says “why not go for the whole world?”

      But the game blows up when the 1-Year Pilot Plant test begins to show an absurd unimaginable level of success . . . COP = +50.

      So, again the Greed-is-Good judgment says “no, I don’t want my 40% of the world market for a +50 COP device . . . I want more . . . and I’m going to not pay the $89M because I believe I can convince everyone that I am unable to substantiate Rossi’s claims.”

      Of course this is the hypothetical flip side of your argument. Time will tell how it all works out in court.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        I don’t see why IH would want to walk away from such technology if they believe it works. 90 million is little for such a technology.

        Either IH does not want to pay, or they feel they should not because they don’t believe the report or plant works.

        I much agree this story can be spun either way. IH is not saying something about IP rights or secrets having been withheld. They are flat out saying they don’t believe the plant works. I see VERY little reason for this position.

        Why walk away from the greatest energy source? This does not make sense

        IH can collaborate with some LENR competitor to Rossi, but will this result in better technology? What other company is going to sign away their rights? So nothing exists that suggests IH can get a better deal elsewhere.

        Too many “points” in time exist when some supposed high quality verification is to occur and such events ALSO concur with results that have conflicts of interest. This is a big red flag.

        I mean, either IH is lying, or they believe they been hoodwinked – not a lot of grey in-between those two positions.

        The position of IH is very disconcerting. We need more details, but something is just not right here.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Buck

          Albert . . . I’m with you.

          Please note, I was presenting the hypothetical argument that Darden was being irrational.

      • Thomas Baccei

        So, Buck, can you make a prediction based on this premise? In my opinion it would be unimaginably insane to generate a hostile and uncertain future in the face of a win so big that no one could ever count the commas in your net worth! Would you REALLY risk a sure trillion in a gamble for two trillion? Not me.

        • Buck

          Your question lacks that rational thread you are looking for; “Irrational” and “Prediction” don’t really fit together.

    • Ged

      It’s definitely true that the main bias I have is that both parties are rational.

    • peacelovewoodstock

      TB>Tom Darden et. al. have no history of instability or deceit

      Last November, Tom Darden et. al. paid a $100,000 “settlement” (fine) and repaid ~ $500K in misreported expenses after being charged by SEC with violations of the Investment Advisors Act going back to 2011. This is public information, readily found via the Interwebs.

      Unclean hands on both sides.

  • Thomas Baccei

    The one bias everyone here seems to have is that Rossi is rational. If the test were successful in reports by Penon and/or other observers, it would be totally insane for IH to rock the boat, Tom Darden et. al. have no history of instability or deceit. Rossi does. It is hard to understand how Rossi could have “passed” the earliest short period test, but there must have been reason for IH to proceed with the year long test, risking the (relatively) short change of a few million against the possibility of almost infinite returns if Rossi had the real deal. Any other view of this is just plain wishful thinking. The similarity of the Defkalion adventure is very compelling. Rossi must have a trick up his sleeve to convince the unwary that his gizmo works – for the SHORT TERM. Under longer scrutiny it simply breaks down, and that, in a nutshell explains both DGH and IH.
    A prediction: This suit will never see the light of day. It will be in the interest of both parties to let it languish for a fairly long time, and then reach an unpublished settlement. Rossi to keep the fantasy alive as long as he can (he clearly needs to be in the spotlight) and IH to avoid embarrassment and save the real costs of litigation = delaying court action is not that expensive.

    • Buck

      I think your hypothetical argument is the funniest of all for one simple reason: the same could be said of Darden.

      In his case, it would be a level of greed that causes him to recognize the value of a COP = +11 (per his filed patent) upon the world energy markets measured in the trillions. A level of greed that clouds the importance of working with the inventor of “cold fire” so as to collect his (Darden’s) financial rewards for his licensed markets which equate to about 40% of global GDP. Instead his Greed-is-Good judgment says “why not go for the whole world?”

      But the game blows up when the 1-Year Pilot Plant test begins to show an absurd unimaginable level of success . . . COP = +50.

      So, again the Greed-is-Good judgment says “no, I don’t want my 40% of the world market for a +50 COP device . . . I want more . . . and I’m going to not pay the $89M because I believe I can convince everyone that I am unable to substantiate Rossi’s claims. And, oh yeh . . . I’ll file counter claim patents on the unsubstantiated technology but I’ll work with a Rossi competitor for help.”

      Of course this is the hypothetical flip side of your argument. Time will tell how it all works out in court.

      • Rossi never had a sound theory nor proper independent validation and his setup was very similar to Brilliant Light Powers old CIHT device which does have a sound theory and independent validation. Fact is though that this technology is all old hat now and BrLP will very soon launch a commercial Sun cell with much lower capital costs per KWH and much higher power densities.

        • Nature doesn’t need to read mankind’s reports, textbooks or proposed ‘theories’ to function, but, we, mankind need read Mother Nature’s …

          For most of us, we need only a ‘black box’ understanding of the functioning of devices we use, that is, we know what goes in to that box, and what to expect coming out, no more than that is required to even sell a ‘box’ to the public! As long as it also meets safety requirements in most cases.

        • Nature doesn’t need to read mankind’s reports, textbooks or proposed ‘theories’ to function, but, we, mankind need read Mother Nature’s …

          For most of us, we need only a ‘black box’ understanding of the functioning of devices we use, that is, we know what goes in to that box, and what to expect coming out, no more than that is required to even sell a ‘box’ to the public! As long as it also meets safety requirements in most cases.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        I don’t see why IH would want to walk away from such technology if they believe it works. 90 million is little for such a technology.

        Either IH does not want to pay, or they feel they should not because they don’t believe the report or plant works.

        I much agree this story can be spun either way. IH is not saying something about IP rights or secrets having been withheld. They are flat out saying they don’t believe the plant works. I see VERY little reason for this position.

        Why walk away from the greatest energy source? This does not make sense

        IH can collaborate with some LENR competitor to Rossi, but will this result in better technology? What other company is going to sign away their rights? So nothing exists that suggests IH can get a better deal elsewhere.

        Too many “points” in time exist when some supposed high quality verification is to occur and such events ALSO concur with results that have conflicts of interest. This is a big red flag.

        I mean, either IH is lying, or they believe they been hoodwinked – not a lot of grey in-between those two positions.

        The position of IH is very disconcerting. We need more details, but something is just not right here.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Buck

          Albert . . . I’m with you.

          Please note, I was presenting the hypothetical argument that Darden was being irrational.

      • Thomas Baccei

        So, Buck, can you make a prediction based on this premise? In my opinion it would be unimaginably insane to generate a hostile and uncertain future in the face of a win so big that no one could ever count the commas in your net worth! Would you REALLY risk a sure trillion in a gamble for two trillion? Not me.

        • Buck

          Your question lacks that rational thread you are looking for; “Irrational” and “Prediction” don’t really fit together.

    • Ged

      It’s definitely true that the main bias I have is that both parties are rational.

      • bachcole

        Rossi could have lost a few marbles a la age related decline. Or he might also be one of those whack-jobs who can convince other people of the reality of their fantasies, like I mentioned elsewhere. But the 2013 Levi and 2014 Lugano test sort of disprove that idea. And the behavior of I.H. disproves that idea.

        On the other hand, I.H. may have run out of money. They may be pressured by bigger interests. All kinds of things could have gone irrational on I.H.’s side.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          I could imagine associating some kind of losing of marbles to the person who is named in the title of the page, while I have a hard time associating it with AR. Just basing this on the consistency/inconsistency of their writings in the last month or so.

    • peacelovewoodstock

      TB>Tom Darden et. al. have no history of instability or deceit

      Last November, Tom Darden et. al. paid a $100,000 “settlement” (fine) and repaid ~ $500K in misreported expenses after being charged by SEC with violations of the Investment Advisors Act going back to 2011. This is public information, readily found via the Interwebs.

      Unclean hands on both sides.

  • Tadej

    No problem, just install it in judge’s home.

    • wpj

      Or better, his swimming pool.

      • Ged

        Just think of the Jacuzzi possibilities.

  • ScienceFan

    This comes across as even more ridiculous of an argument than what IH previously stated. Why would IH be trying to steal the patents and claim ownership on something that they are now claiming doesn’t do what it was supposed to do?

    • SG

      Yes, the most blatant inconsistency of all. IH have a lot of explaining to do.

  • Barbierir

    We know that IH must answer to the lawsuit within a short time. I suppose that, since they too have the report, the answer will include the report itself with a critical analysis according to them. This seems to me the most rational course of action if they want to challenge the result. Unless they wish to wait for Rossi to publish the report first, before publishing their own counter-report, but why should they? Or if neither does, the jury will certainly ask for it.

    • Ged

      If I were a betting man, I’d bet you are completely correct.

  • Barbierir

    We know that IH must answer to the lawsuit within a short time. I suppose that, since they too have the report, the answer will include the report itself with a critical analysis according to them. This seems to me the most rational course of action if they want to challenge the result. Unless they wish to wait for Rossi to publish the report first, before publishing their own counter-report, but why should they? Or if neither does, the jury will certainly ask for it.

    • Ged

      If I were a betting man, I’d bet you are completely correct.

    • Ged

      If I were a betting man, I’d bet you are completely correct.

  • Buck

    Is the following theory absurd?

    What if Martin Tornberg’s excellent point (see his comment: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4241%29 ) about how the contract was constructed with a misalignment of interests was something Rossi recognized for what it enabled: an investor’s opportunity for taking advantage of Rossi and his IP?

    It is fair to say that Rossi has a history of being ill-treated over his inventions. Darden seemed different and apparently passed just about every concern Rossi had. However, this particular clause . . . the Tornberg clause, would be the final test. What Darden chose to do would reflect solely upon Darden himself.

    Rossi saw what Darden was doing and decided to end the relationship at the most opportune moment: a 1-Year Pilot Plant test with a COP = +50, a new E-CatX Quark that also produced electricity directly, and a breach of contract non-payment of $89M.

  • MarcIrvin

    One thing is certain. With all this back and forth Rossi has to hold himself ultimately responsible, recognize that he is the leader of the project, snakes be hanged. He has to accept that this state of affairs looks bad, and the fiasco needle points squarely at himself. He and We should expect zero recognition by the press, and even less from the scientific community, and even less from industrialist. He promised COP>6 heating elements, he promised a bulletproof report about the industrial trial, and he promised us a happy client. No happy client, and forget a bulletproof report – the report is effectively eighty-sixed. Which leaves us with the COP>6 heating elements. I feel that Rossi’s only reputation saving move now is to openly display an operational, water heating, prototype that will be his model for mass production. Most scientists that have reviewed his claims say all he ever needed to do was boil a cup, or a pot, or a barrel of water consistently several times and the facts would speak for themselves. I say its time to get off the “POT”.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Very well said Marc!! No matter the reasoning, Rossi has failed to deliver on all promises across the board at this point. This court case will most likely go on for years, so the only course of action that Rossi has is to deliver a product. He has said that progress toward a product has now accelerated (even though we dont know why or how)…so in my mind this will be his 3rd strike..and out…. if he cannot deliver. If he can deliver a product that works….then he has lost nothing in terms of what his effect would be worth worldwide by the lawsuit or problems with IH. The ball is 100% in Rossi’s court if he wants any progress in the next 3-5 years of litigation.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Very well said Marc!! No matter the reasoning, Rossi has failed to deliver on all promises across the board at this point. This court case will most likely go on for years, so the only course of action that Rossi has is to deliver a product. He has said that progress toward a product has now accelerated (even though we dont know why or how)…so in my mind this will be his 3rd strike..and out…. if he cannot deliver. If he can deliver a product that works….then he has lost nothing in terms of what his effect would be worth worldwide by the lawsuit or problems with IH. The ball is 100% in Rossi’s court if he wants any progress in the next 3-5 years of litigation.

  • Rossi Fan

    Stop it. Time to grow up. You do not get to make blatant unprofessional errors then blame each other. Rossi should have known who he is getting into a partnership with just by looking at what they were busy doing for the past 30 years. Darden should have known better than to hire one person, a person, instead of a team or reputable company with a track record and agree to that person to be the referee. In business the more people involved the more difficult it is to form and keep a conspiracy.

  • cashmemorz

    IH is just being cautious when things start looking too good all of a sudden. IH contracted for at least a COP of 6. AR history with the COP was in that range in stable mode. But when a COP that was an whole order of magnitude higher than usual reported then IH decided to err on the side of caution. This is prudence, nothing more where large amounts of investors money is concerned. AR must now show how this is possible to do. The court case should unravel how this lrarge unexpected COP came about.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Why would it be prudent to break a contract if
      it could risk your property rights to the product of the millennium? None of this makes sense. We must be missing something.

      • cashmemorz

        To be bullet proof as to the workings of this particular LENR method. Breaking a contract worth $89m is worth it in the long run regarding the potential of the device if it pans out. If it turns out that the COP of such a high magnitude was false then the device and it inventor has extreme doubt cast on it and therefore has property rights that probably have a COP closer to 6-11.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Based on what little we know, it looks to me like IH will lose. They signed off on the ERV and when the ERV’s report looked too rosy, they try to back off. I believe Rossi will commence mass production and let the courts sort out the rights later.

      • Alan DeAngelis
        • Alan DeAngelis

          Pardon me; this is creepier than I thought it
          would be.

  • cashmemorz

    IH is just being cautious when things start looking too good all of a sudden. IH contracted for at least a COP of 6. AR history with the COP was in that range in stable mode. But when a COP that was an whole order of magnitude higher than usual reported then IH decided to err on the side of caution. This is prudence, nothing more where large amounts of investors money is concerned. AR must now show how this is possible to do. The court case should unravel how this larger than unexpected COP came about.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Why would it be prudent to break a contract if
      it could risk your property rights to the product of the millennium? None of this makes sense. We must be missing something.

      • cashmemorz

        To be bullet proof as to the workings of this particular LENR method. Breaking a contract worth $89m is worth it in the long run regarding the potential of the device if it pans out. If it turns out that the COP of such a high magnitude was false then the device and it inventor has extreme doubt cast on it and therefore has property rights that probably have a COP closer to 6-11. Still good COP but other inventors are in that range so why pay AR in that case. The COP of 50 looks looks like a red herring in the end according to my scenario. Maybe AR wnted to use this red herring as a way to mix up IH’s mind about what to do when they saw theCOP so high above the agreed on CIOP.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Based on what little we know, it looks to me like IH will lose. They signed off on the ERV and when the ERV’s report looked too rosy, they try to back off. I believe Rossi will commence mass production and let the courts sort out the rights later.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Based on what little we know, it looks to me like IH will lose. They signed off on the ERV and when the ERV’s report looked too rosy, they try to back off. I believe Rossi will commence mass production and let the courts sort out the rights later.

      • cashmemorz

        To be bullet proof as to the workings of this particular LENR method. Breaking a contract worth $89m is worth it in the long run regarding the potential of the device if it pans out. If it turns out that the COP of such a high magnitude was false then the device and it inventor has extreme doubt cast on it and therefore has property rights that probably have a COP closer to 6-11. Still good COP but other inventors are in that range so why pay AR in that case. The COP of 50 looks looks like a red herring in the end according to my scenario. Maybe AR wnted to use this red herring as a way to mix up IH’s mind about what to do when they saw theCOP so high above the agreed on CIOP.

      • Alan DeAngelis
        • Alan DeAngelis

          Pardon me; this is creepier than I thought it
          would be.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Pardon me; this is creepier than I thought it
          would be.

      • Alan DeAngelis
    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Why would it be prudent to break a contract if
      it could risk your property rights to the product of the millennium? None of this makes sense. We must be missing something.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    Why would Mr. Rossi bring in a one-man evaluation team for such a long and critical test? It doesn’t compute.

    • bachcole

      Perhaps he was already secure in the knowledge that Darden and company were good people who already believed in the reality of the E-Cat.

      I think that Darden just didn’t have the money and is trying to wiggle out of the contract, perhaps.

      • kdk

        I think that they would try to reach an agreement with Rossi then instead of bringing out APCO. They’re settling in for a long fight.

      • gdaigle

        If I may paraphrase, IH isn’t say that the plant doesn’t work, only that they haven’t been given enough evidence that the plant does work. That is very disconcerting since it is essentially what the jury of 12 scientists said of Steorn — not that they proved the Orbo did not work, but that Steorn did not provide enough data to show to their satisfaction that it did work. Less than a year later Steorn went underground for 5 years and their technology is still in dispute. I hope that does not befall the E-Cat.

        • Allan Shura

          It appears one Orbo power prototype uses a small high density battery to recharge a minimalist capacitor and current draw as described. The price is for a high end trendy market the economics
          are lost at the price for the mass market.

          • SG

            Except that the Orbo cell in Frank’s possession appears not to have the functional characteristics of a typical RC circuit + battery. See the Orbo thread for more details. Still sleuthing–nothing certain at this stage.

        • DrD

          Sure, but you can’t fail to notice that a product in the market place has a COP of >50.
          If it doesn’t start to appear in the next few months I will then probably abandon hope but right now, this law suit is a bit of a sideline. Meanwhile lets see some E-Cat’s and quarks.

    • Ged

      Minor correction: Rossi -and- IH. Though, it wasn’t that others weren’t evaluating, he was just the “moderator” (ERV) that was to be an unbiased third party to settle any disputes between the two parties.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    Why would Mr. Rossi bring in a one-man evaluation team for such a long and critical test? It doesn’t compute.

    • bachcole

      Perhaps he was already secure in the knowledge that Darden and company were good people who already believed in the reality of the E-Cat.

      I think that Darden just didn’t have the money and is trying to wiggle out of the contract, perhaps.

      • kdk

        I think that they would try to reach an agreement with Rossi then instead of bringing out APCO. They’re settling in for a long fight… Their PR team will have better luck with people who don’t know much about LENR. They’ll spin him as a fraud. Because of the “kooky” label with cold fusion, lots of people will believe them unless people counter the nonsense they peddle.

      • kdk

        I think that they would try to reach an agreement with Rossi then instead of bringing out APCO. They’re settling in for a long fight… Their PR team will have better luck with people who don’t know much about LENR. They’ll spin him as a fraud. Because of the “kooky” label with cold fusion, lots of people will believe them unless people counter the nonsense they peddle.

    • Simple. He didn’t.

      The “one party deal” was in the ‘joint deal’ with IH, and it *may* have involved other personnel (like several instrument technicians, etc.) working under the direction of that third, auditing party. We simply don’t know at this point …

    • Simple. He didn’t.

      The “one party deal” was in the ‘joint deal’ with IH, and it *may* have involved other personnel (like several instrument technicians, etc.) working under the direction of that third, auditing party. We simply don’t know at this point …

    • Ged

      Minor correction: Rossi -and- IH. Though, it wasn’t that others weren’t evaluating, he was just the “moderator” (ERV) that was to be an unbiased third party to settle any disputes between the two parties.

    • Ged

      Minor correction: Rossi -and- IH. Though, it wasn’t that others weren’t evaluating, he was just the “moderator” (ERV) that was to be an unbiased third party to settle any disputes between the two parties.

  • Optimist

    It seems to be turning out as the worst case scenario. Undeserved or not, Rossi had been dealing with public opinion issues and is an easy media target. The relationship with IH did give him a credibility that he was lacking as because they were ready to risk millions of dollars in the year long show case, they must have had information convincing them of the likely result. And delivering a MW of energy using 20kW of energy should not be difficult to verify in a very short time. IH accepted investment of tens of millions of dollars based on the progress of the plant. In the mean time, very convincing replication results are delivered by the MFMG, Russian and China replicators and independent based on different approach by Leif Holmlid and Sveinn Olafsson.

    So, if Rossi is a fraud, all the replication results are also fraud or wishful thinking, except maybe the Holmlid/Olafsson approach. Due to the huge COP this must have been clear to IH from the beginning of the study.

    On the other hand, if IH are playing a game, what is their play and purpose? By publicly destroying Rossi and moving his IP to a competitor they could get higher returns than moving along with Rossi? They could be slowing down the progress of LENR for few more years to gain competitive advantage? They could have political reasons og govermental agreement for containing the release of this type of disruptive technology, not to wagle the world economy?

    Both conclusion are extremely hard to believe.

    A third explanation if we go further down the road of conspiracy is that both Rossi and IH do not believe that it is in their best interests to release a conclusive evidence of the process. IH were shorting oil if I’m correct so running the container for a year and delivering the report would have been profitable. In the meantime, oilprice plumed before the release of the report and IH collected their money. There is no competitor in sight for the Rossi technology and Rossi is not yet ready with a product to deliver. Publishing the report would draw huge attention to the technology so compettitors with their pockets full of money would appear shortly with similar result. So the logical step to maximise the return would be for both Rossi and IH be to cast doubt on the whole thing while they are getting into position for releasing a product with maximum competitive advantage. No doubt that in that state companies like GE our other giants would jump on buying the deal at maximum value. So maybe the trial is just a show for the rest of us, carefully planned and organized by both Rossi and IH.

    If not we will see two things happening.

    First Rossi will have a number of independent universities run his ecat for undeniable evidence for the court case. This he can do without any effort in as short time as one month. Why would he not be ready to do that in his current situation?

    The investors of IH will sue them for fraud. If not they must know something that the rest of us don’t.

    • kdk

      “On the other hand, if IH are playing a game, what is their play and purpose? By publicly destroying Rossi and moving his IP to a competitor they could get higher returns than moving along with Rossi? They could be slowing down the progress of LENR for few more years to gain competitive advantage? They could have political reasons og govermental agreement for containing the release of this type of disruptive technology, not to wagle the world economy?”

      Critically, you’re going on the assumption that all people are good natured and wouldn’t do such a thing. It is uncomfortable but obvious when you look closer that that doesn’t hold up.

      • Optimist

        I do assume that IH is in this for the money and will do anything to maximise their profit. That’s why I can’t understand why they would like a conclusive report on LENR to be published before they have maximised their competitive advantage. The logical conclusion is that Rossi and IH are on this togathet to buy a year or two of blue ocean market while completing their products and IP. Getting GE or Toshiba on their heals now could mean loosing the competition in relatively short time. Offering GE 2 to 3 years of competitive advantage would however be worth the mother of all payments.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      = So, if
      Rossi is a fraud, all the replication results are also fraud or wishful
      thinking

      Not at all. The simple issue is IH does not believe a COP of 50, and don’t think the ERV report is valid. The other replications and low COP’s are not commercially viable. So
      sure, other companies have seen and produced the LENR effect. However as such,
      this does not prove or validate Ross’s high COP’s.

      Rossi and IH do not believe that it is in their best interests to release a conclusive evidence of the process

      Well, Rossi’s actions and speaking about LENR nearly everyday shows otherwise. And Rossi stated he is happy with the ERV report. There is nothing here that suggests
      Rossi is advoiding publicly for LENR – his actions show otherwise.

      If Rossi was paid the 90 million, I suspect things would be different here.

      And likely at the start IH did believe in Rossi. That explains their actions in terms of
      investing into other LENR companies, and also raising money.

      As for the ERV? I suspect he did a good job, but without details as to the location of the plant, who runs the factory etc., then MANY possible sources of power going into the
      ecat would not be realized here. Without details as to where this test factory
      is, who paid for power etc., then we have little to go on.

      A COP of 50 is extremely high, and well beyond LENR experiments. A COP of 3 or even 5 is likely not commercially viable.

      It possible that Rossi feels he signed away too much to IH, but then again IH would have come through with their money. I mean, I fail to see how IH could capitalize more money
      than a paltry 90 million for one of the largest LENR markets? Who even cares if IH has any IP and knows the workings – they have the rights to this large marketplace, and that would include the ecat-x etc. They would not walk away from that market or these LENR devices unless they had good reason to.

      I suspect Rossi reactor works, but details as to performance etc. cannot be determined without better information.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • LarryJ

      What really matters at this point in time is market share. Who cares if you own the IP, if you already own the market. IH feels they know enough now to compete with Leonardo and they know full well that it works so they will be working furiously right now to get products to market before Rossi. People here seem to be of the opinion that this report will affect Leonardo’s or IH’s ability to make products. They are suggesting they should “make up” and get on with it. That is not true. They do not need to “make up” to get on with it. Rossi is publicly saying every day that Leonardo are getting on with it. IH takes the more conventional approach and are getting on with it under the radar.

      Many years from now when the court case is settled one party will owe the other licensing fees and possibly some damages. So what! They would have had to pay licensing fees anyways and the damages will be small compared to the value of owning a significant share of the world market. If the court loser controls the market they will pay the licensing fees, some damages and carry on building their mega corporation.

  • Optimist

    It seems to be turning out as the worst case scenario. Undeserved or not, Rossi had been dealing with public opinion issues and is an easy media target. The relationship with IH did give him a credibility that he was lacking as because they were ready to risk millions of dollars in the year long show case, they must have had information convincing them of the likely result. And delivering a MW of energy using 20kW of energy should not be difficult to verify in a very short time. IH accepted investment of tens of millions of dollars based on the progress of the plant. In the mean time, very convincing replication results are delivered by the MFMG, Russian and China replicators and independent based on different approach by Leif Holmlid and Sveinn Olafsson.

    So, if Rossi is a fraud, all the replication results are also fraud or wishful thinking, except maybe the Holmlid/Olafsson approach. Due to the huge COP this must have been clear to IH from the beginning of the study.

    On the other hand, if IH are playing a game, what is their play and purpose? By publicly destroying Rossi and moving his IP to a competitor they could get higher returns than moving along with Rossi? They could be slowing down the progress of LENR for few more years to gain competitive advantage? They could have political reasons og govermental agreement for containing the release of this type of disruptive technology, not to wagle the world economy?

    Both conclusion are extremely hard to believe.

    A third explanation if we go further down the road of conspiracy is that both Rossi and IH do not believe that it is in their best interests to release a conclusive evidence of the process. IH were shorting oil if I’m correct so running the container for a year and delivering the report would have been profitable. In the meantime, oilprice plumed before the release of the report and IH collected their money. There is no competitor in sight for the Rossi technology and Rossi is not yet ready with a product to deliver. Publishing the report would draw huge attention to the technology so compettitors with their pockets full of money would appear shortly with similar result. So the logical step to maximise the return would be for both Rossi and IH be to cast doubt on the whole thing while they are getting into position for releasing a product with maximum competitive advantage. No doubt that in that state companies like GE our other giants would jump on buying the deal at maximum value. So maybe the trial is just a show for the rest of us, carefully planned and organized by both Rossi and IH.

    If not we will see two things happening.

    First Rossi will have a number of independent universities run his ecat for undeniable evidence for the court case. This he can do without any effort in as short time as one month. Why would he not be ready to do that in his current situation?

    The investors of IH will sue them for fraud. If not they must know something that the rest of us don’t.

    • kdk

      “On the other hand, if IH are playing a game, what is their play and purpose? By publicly destroying Rossi and moving his IP to a competitor they could get higher returns than moving along with Rossi? They could be slowing down the progress of LENR for few more years to gain competitive advantage? They could have political reasons og govermental agreement for containing the release of this type of disruptive technology, not to wagle the world economy?”

      Critically, you’re going on the assumption that all people are good natured and wouldn’t do such a thing. It is uncomfortable but obvious when you look closer that that doesn’t hold up.

      Corporations have been involved in hit squads over less money than is at stake here.

    • kdk

      “On the other hand, if IH are playing a game, what is their play and purpose? By publicly destroying Rossi and moving his IP to a competitor they could get higher returns than moving along with Rossi? They could be slowing down the progress of LENR for few more years to gain competitive advantage? They could have political reasons og govermental agreement for containing the release of this type of disruptive technology, not to wagle the world economy?”

      Critically, you’re going on the assumption that all people are good natured and wouldn’t do such a thing. It is uncomfortable but obvious when you look closer that that doesn’t hold up.

      Corporations have been involved in hit squads over less money than is at stake here.

      • Optimist

        I do assume that IH is in this for the money and will do anything to maximise their profit. That’s why I can’t understand why they would like a conclusive report on LENR to be published before they have maximised their competitive advantage. The logical conclusion is that Rossi and IH are on this togathet to buy a year or two of blue ocean market while completing their products and IP. Getting GE or Toshiba on their heals now could mean loosing the competition in relatively short time. Offering GE 2 to 3 years of competitive advantage would however be worth the mother of all payments.

      • Optimist

        I do assume that IH is in this for the money and will do anything to maximise their profit. That’s why I can’t understand why they would like a conclusive report on LENR to be published before they have maximised their competitive advantage. The logical conclusion is that Rossi and IH are on this togathet to buy a year or two of blue ocean market while completing their products and IP. Getting GE or Toshiba on their heals now could mean loosing the competition in relatively short time. Offering GE 2 to 3 years of competitive advantage would however be worth the mother of all payments.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      = So, if
      Rossi is a fraud, all the replication results are also fraud or wishful
      thinking

      Not at all. The simple issue is IH does not believe a COP of 50, and don’t think the ERV report is valid. The other replications and low COP’s are not commercially viable. So
      sure, other companies have seen and produced the LENR effect. However as such,
      this does not prove or validate Ross’s high COP’s.

      Rossi and IH do not believe that it is in their best interests to release a conclusive evidence of the process

      Well, Rossi’s actions and speaking about LENR nearly everyday shows otherwise. And Rossi stated he is happy with the ERV report. There is nothing here that suggests
      Rossi is advoiding publicly for LENR – his actions show otherwise.

      If Rossi was paid the 90 million, I suspect things would be different here.

      And likely at the start IH did believe in Rossi. That explains their actions in terms of
      investing into other LENR companies, and also raising money.

      As for the ERV? I suspect he did a good job, but without details as to the location of the plant, who runs the factory etc., then MANY possible sources of power going into the
      ecat would not be realized here. Without details as to where this test factory
      is, who paid for power etc., then we have little to go on.

      A COP of 50 is extremely high, and well beyond LENR experiments. A COP of 3 or even 5 is likely not commercially viable.

      It possible that Rossi feels he signed away too much to IH, but then again IH would have come through with their money. I mean, I fail to see how IH could capitalize more money
      than a paltry 90 million for one of the largest LENR markets? Who even cares if IH has any IP and knows the workings – they have the rights to this large marketplace, and that would include the ecat-x etc. They would not walk away from that market or these LENR devices unless they had good reason to.

      I suspect Rossi reactor works, but details as to performance etc. cannot be determined without better information.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Albert D. Kallal

      = So, if
      Rossi is a fraud, all the replication results are also fraud or wishful
      thinking

      Not at all. The simple issue is IH does not believe a COP of 50, and don’t think the ERV report is valid. The other replications and low COP’s are not commercially viable. So
      sure, other companies have seen and produced the LENR effect. However as such,
      this does not prove or validate Ross’s high COP’s.

      Rossi and IH do not believe that it is in their best interests to release a conclusive evidence of the process

      Well, Rossi’s actions and speaking about LENR nearly everyday shows otherwise. And Rossi stated he is happy with the ERV report. There is nothing here that suggests
      Rossi is advoiding publicly for LENR – his actions show otherwise.

      If Rossi was paid the 90 million, I suspect things would be different here.

      And likely at the start IH did believe in Rossi. That explains their actions in terms of
      investing into other LENR companies, and also raising money.

      As for the ERV? I suspect he did a good job, but without details as to the location of the plant, who runs the factory etc., then MANY possible sources of power going into the
      ecat would not be realized here. Without details as to where this test factory
      is, who paid for power etc., then we have little to go on.

      A COP of 50 is extremely high, and well beyond LENR experiments. A COP of 3 or even 5 is likely not commercially viable.

      It possible that Rossi feels he signed away too much to IH, but then again IH would have come through with their money. I mean, I fail to see how IH could capitalize more money
      than a paltry 90 million for one of the largest LENR markets? Who even cares if IH has any IP and knows the workings – they have the rights to this large marketplace, and that would include the ecat-x etc. They would not walk away from that market or these LENR devices unless they had good reason to.

      I suspect Rossi reactor works, but details as to performance etc. cannot be determined without better information.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • LarryJ

      What really matters at this point in time is market share. Who cares if you own the IP, if you already own the market. IH feels they know enough now to compete with Leonardo and they know full well that it works so they will be working furiously right now to get products to market before Rossi. People here seem to be of the opinion that this report will affect Leonardo’s or IH’s ability to make products. They are suggesting they should “make up” and get on with it. That is not true. They do not need to “make up” to get on with it. Rossi is publicly saying every day that Leonardo are getting on with it. IH takes the more conventional approach and are getting on with it under the radar.

      Many years from now when the court case is settled one party will owe the other licensing fees and possibly some damages. So what! They would have had to pay licensing fees anyways and the damages will be small compared to the value of owning a significant share of the world market. If the court loser controls the market they will pay the licensing fees, some damages and carry on building their mega corporation.

      • Agreed, a large market share and first to market are most important right now. I hope the main strategy of both LC and IH is to beat the other guy to market and that both have the funds to move on that ASAP.

        Rossi says he is going full steam ahead and has all the support he needs. I REALLY hope that’s the case.

        But IH may not be so inclined. For all I know, IH’s mission is to shelf the tech so it can’t come to market at all.

      • Agreed, a large market share and first to market are most important right now. I hope the main strategy of both LC and IH is to beat the other guy to market and that both have the funds to move on that ASAP.

        Rossi says he is going full steam ahead and has all the support he needs. I REALLY hope that’s the case.

        But IH may not be so inclined. For all I know, IH’s mission is to shelf the tech so it can’t come to market at all.

    • LarryJ

      What really matters at this point in time is market share. Who cares if you own the IP, if you already own the market. IH feels they know enough now to compete with Leonardo and they know full well that it works so they will be working furiously right now to get products to market before Rossi. People here seem to be of the opinion that this report will affect Leonardo’s or IH’s ability to make products. They are suggesting they should “make up” and get on with it. That is not true. They do not need to “make up” to get on with it. Rossi is publicly saying every day that Leonardo are getting on with it. IH takes the more conventional approach and are getting on with it under the radar.

      Many years from now when the court case is settled one party will owe the other licensing fees and possibly some damages. So what! They would have had to pay licensing fees anyways and the damages will be small compared to the value of owning a significant share of the world market. If the court loser controls the market they will pay the licensing fees, some damages and carry on building their mega corporation.

  • Observer

    I have one question:

    Did IH raise enough money to pay Rossi and finance all of their other LENR groups?

    • Ged

      I doubt IH/Cherokee will ever tell us that.

  • Observer

    I have one question:

    Did IH raise enough money to pay Rossi and finance all of their other LENR groups?

    • bachcole

      Good question. If they did not raise enough money, they would be in some seriously deep yogurt.

    • bachcole

      Good question. If they did not raise enough money, they would be in some seriously deep yogurt.

    • Ged

      I doubt IH/Cherokee will ever tell us that.

    • Ged

      I doubt IH/Cherokee will ever tell us that.

  • Alex Fenrick

    I still contend there will be a necessity for a REAL independent test before anyone is awarded anything in this case. I believe it would be much like one party suing another party over a report that Santa Claus is real….no judge would allow award there either. I know I seem to be in the minority not trusting this report because I feel it has a conflict of interest…but time shall tell. I think we will find Rossi not to be so squeaky clean.

  • Alex Fenrick

    I still contend there will be a necessity for a REAL independent test before anyone is awarded anything in this case. I believe it would be much like one party suing another party over a report that Santa Claus is real….no judge would allow award there either. I know I seem to be in the minority not trusting this report because I feel it has a conflict of interest…but time shall tell. I think we will find Rossi not to be so squeaky clean.

    • bachcole

      Most everyone’s self-report is squeaky clean. That is why we have courts.

    • bachcole

      Most everyone’s self-report is squeaky clean. That is why we have courts.

  • I believe with all these eyes on the case we’ll eventually find out which party is more truthful and virtuous. The contract particulars, the money invested in IH, various IH business moves and the year long test altogether has me leaning Rossi’s way, especially given his conviction and bold claims made via legal court documents/proceedings.

    But I am leaving the door open for IH to change my mind with any solid evidence that they may bring forth.

    I also want to add that Jed Roswell’s remarks carry ZERO weight with me.

  • I believe with all these eyes on the case we’ll eventually find out which party is more truthful and virtuous. The contract particulars, the money invested in IH, various IH business moves and the year long test altogether has me leaning Rossi’s way, especially given his conviction and bold claims made via legal court documents/proceedings.

    But I am leaving the door open for IH to change my mind with any solid evidence that they may bring forth.

    I also want to add that Jed Roswell’s remarks carry ZERO weight with me.

    • psi2u2

      Very well put.

    • psi2u2

      Very well put.

  • Guest

    Andrea Rossi
    April 13, 2016 at 5:30 PM
    Patrick Ellul:
    The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.
    Everything you are reading now is just toilet paper, diffused by professionals of the same and the ones they have paid for.
    I can only repeat what my Attorney wrote in our press release, it is that we are pleased by the results. The results are coherent with what I have repeatedly written on this blog during the 352 days of test: the plant has worked mostly in SSM mode. As all the visitors have seen.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=95#comment-1172432

  • Guest

    Andrea Rossi
    April 13, 2016 at 5:30 PM
    Patrick Ellul:
    The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.
    Everything you are reading now is just toilet paper, diffused by professionals of the same and the ones they have paid for.
    I can only repeat what my Attorney wrote in our press release, it is that we are pleased by the results. The results are coherent with what I have repeatedly written on this blog during the 352 days of test: the plant has worked mostly in SSM mode. As all the visitors have seen.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=95#comment-1172432

  • deleo77

    Regarding the ERV Rossi just said, “The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.”

    This is a bit of a red flag for me. First, this litigation in all likelihood will never see a courtroom. Settlement offers will go back and forth between the attorneys for a while and then an agreement will be made. The idea of an OJ style trial with evidence and expert witnesses is not something to hold our collective breaths over.

    Also, either Rossi or IH could release this report now, and yet they Choose not to. It is not the authority of the court to keep documents confidential until they are presented in court. Rossi or IH could release the ERV to the world now and it would not nullify it as evidence in any way. One of the parties could try to get an injunction to keep it from being released, but we have heard nothing along those lines from either side.

    • SG

      I predicted this is what Leonardo and Mr. Rossi would do, because it is simply the most credible way to release the highly charged report. If I were them, I would include sworn affidavits from one or more individuals attesting to the authenticity of the report. In this situation, everything will be scrutinized, and things must be done in the proper order. You are right, it might settle, but I don’t think that will happen anytime soon. The emotions and the back and forth are too high right now.

    • SG

      I predicted this is what Leonardo and Mr. Rossi would do, because it is simply the most credible way to release the highly charged report. If I were them, I would include sworn affidavits from one or more individuals attesting to the authenticity of the report. In this situation, everything will be scrutinized, and things must be done in the proper order. You are right, it might settle, but I don’t think that will happen anytime soon. The emotions and the back and forth are too high right now.

    • Ged

      It is possible for a court to seal documents pending a trial, but only if it’s a jury trial. The reason for that is a court does not want to bias its jury pool prior to the hearing. Since Rossi asked for a jury trial, this is actually a big concern for both the defense and prosecution. It’s also a really big thing that comes up during jury selection. If you get to serve on a jury, you’ll experience what I mean.

      I don’t know if that is what’s going on here, and I rather think it’s SG’s theory that is most likely, particularly since neither Rossi -nor- IH wants to release it yet until in the court. For Rossi, it would be a matter of credibility (hence forensics as well), and for IH it would be a matter of keeping away details that make them look bad until they are in court and can try to make a defense.

    • Ged

      It is possible for a court to seal documents pending a trial, but only if it’s a jury trial. The reason for that is a court does not want to bias its jury pool prior to the hearing. Since Rossi asked for a jury trial, this is actually a big concern for both the defense and prosecution. It’s also a really big thing that comes up during jury selection. If you get to serve on a jury, you’ll experience what I mean.

      I don’t know if that is what’s going on here, and I rather think it’s SG’s theory that is most likely, particularly since neither Rossi -nor- IH wants to release it yet until in the court. For Rossi, it would be a matter of credibility (hence forensics as well), and for IH it would be a matter of keeping away details that make them look bad until they are in court and can try to make a defense.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Well. Not releasing the ERV, in light of a jury trial, is the best argument I have heard for not releasing the ERV.

        But, they impetus for not releasing the ERV, in light of a jury trial, is to avoid a biased jury…which would be a concern if the ERV was known to the masses through the main stream media.

        However, as we all know, only our small, little click (relative to MSM desimination) would be reading the ERV. So, actually unfortunately, not a lot of risk in biasing a jury here.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Well. Not releasing the ERV, in light of a jury trial, is the best argument I have heard for not releasing the ERV.

        But, they impetus for not releasing the ERV, in light of a jury trial, is to avoid a biased jury…which would be a concern if the ERV was known to the masses through the main stream media.

        However, as we all know, only our small, little click (relative to MSM desimination) would be reading the ERV. So, actually unfortunately, not a lot of risk in biasing a jury here.

        • Ged

          Very true. So far SG’s ideas make the most sense to me, because of that weakness in that idea.

        • Ged

          Very true. So far SG’s ideas make the most sense to me, because of that weakness in that idea.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Rossi has repeatedly said that all parties would have to agree with the publication of the report. That was long before there was a known conflict. Publishing the report without the agreement of the other side might be interpreted as a breach of contract. I guess that neither Rossi nor IH want to take that risk.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Rossi has repeatedly said that all parties would have to agree with the publication of the report. That was long before there was a known conflict. Publishing the report without the agreement of the other side might be interpreted as a breach of contract. I guess that neither Rossi nor IH want to take that risk.

      • Ged

        If either Rossi’s or IH’s claims are to be believed, then the contract is already breached, so there should be no legal matter holding them back, in that regard, I guess.

        • hempenearth

          Yes, it could be construed as a “further breach” of the contract.

        • hempenearth

          Yes, it could be construed as a “further breach” of the contract.

      • Ged

        If either Rossi’s or IH’s claims are to be believed, then the contract is already breached, so there should be no legal matter holding them back, in that regard, I guess.

      • bachcole

        I am very confused how one report is COP >= 6, perhaps as high as 60, and the other report is negative, or less than 1. This is where the customer’s input would be very valuable. Perhaps a bunch of people don’t want to hurt Rossi’s feelings. Perhaps the second report was done by a skeptopath. It is all very confusing.

    • NCkhawk

      There is little chance that IH will settle with Rossi after his behavior. Rossi shot at the lion and missed. The next turn belongs to the lion.

    • NCkhawk

      There is little chance that IH will settle with Rossi after his behavior. Rossi shot at the lion and missed. The next turn belongs to the lion.

    • LarryJ

      The whole court case is just a minor sideshow. Who in their right mind would abandon a trillion dollar market over 89 million dollars. It is meaningless and will not have any affect at all on the major players now moving into the industrialization phase.

      The main attraction now is the production of industrial reactors by Leonardo and IH. IH have a proven reactor that can produce a cop > 50 and Leonardo have a newer unproven tech that can produce electricity and light directly. Both players have strong hands. IH are arguably the more experienced industrialists and so in the short term will probably take the lead with their cop > 50 reactor. Leonardo though have the innovative genius who can beat them at electrical generation, It will be an interesting battle to watch.

      Their styles are also quite different. Leonardo is open and apparently high tech, whereas IH play their cards very close to the chest and are clearly less innovative and less ethical.

  • deleo77

    Regarding the ERV Rossi just said, “The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.”

    This is a bit of a red flag for me. First, this litigation in all likelihood will never see a courtroom. Settlement offers will go back and forth between the attorneys for a while and then an agreement will be made. The idea of an OJ style trial with evidence and expert witnesses is not something to hold our collective breaths over.

    Also, either Rossi or IH could release this report now, and yet they Choose not to. It is not the authority of the court to keep documents confidential until they are presented in court. Rossi or IH could release the ERV to the world now and it would not nullify it as evidence in any way. One of the parties could try to get an injunction to keep it from being released, but we have heard nothing along those lines from either side.

  • Sandy

    Saudi Arabia demands that its customers pay for petroleum with U.S. dollars. That demand and practice (known as the “petrodollar”) supports the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar. If Rossi and IH begin marketing E-Cats and thereby cause the price of petroleum to crash, that crash could in turn cause the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar to collapse by 30 percent or more. In that event, Rossi and IH might become the most hated people in America. I therefore believe that the Rossi v. IH drama is just a delaying tactic.

    On April 19, China will initiate a gold price fixing system. That new system could overturn the London gold price fixing system and thereby cause the U.S.-dollar price of gold to rise rapidly. As the U.S.-dollar price of gold goes up the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar goes down.

    Rossi and IH may be planning to allow China to take the blame for crashing the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar. If that is their plan, they will delay marketing E-Cats until after China has caused and taken the blame for the crash of the U.S. dollar.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I had that same thought. almost exactly as you laid it out.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I had that same thought. almost exactly as you laid it out.

      • John Buczek

        I believe the impact on the US and world economy will be very fast and out of proportion to the level of market penetration.

        For years the stock price of a company has depended as much or more on anticipated future earnings than current earnings. The first people to convert to LENR will be those who spend the most aka the most profitable customers of the fossil energy industry, reducing profits out of proportion. The long term view for the industry will be constantly decreasing profits and a constantly shrinking market, eventually down to allmost nil. No one wants to be the last to bail out from a company whose stock is bound to fall so the fall will start immediately.

        Dramatic decrease in stock value will affect the borrowing ability of those companies diminishing the resources they will have to adapt or diversify. I remember an article, I think in Forbes, several years ago discussing the possible impact of new, cheap energy. They were talking about things like “hot fusion” but one of the conclusions was $14 trillion worth of coal assets world wide becoming worthless almost instantly. That’s security for a lot of debt.

        The oil/coal/gas exporting nations could decide to drop prices drastically to realize as much as possible from their resource before it becomes nearly worthless. This will cause exploration and development to drop off fast. All it takes is one of them to cut prices to start the ball rolling.

        In the long run it will be unquestionably positive for the US and world economy. Replacement of every motor vehicle in the world would be only a small part of it. That will all take time. In the mean time many of the wealthiest people, corporations and nations will suffer.

        Side benefit….. virtually all terrorism is funded with oil money, one way or another.

      • John Buczek

        I believe the impact on the US and world economy will be very fast and out of proportion to the level of market penetration.

        For years the stock price of a company has depended as much or more on anticipated future earnings than current earnings. The first people to convert to LENR will be those who spend the most aka the most profitable customers of the fossil energy industry, reducing profits out of proportion. The long term view for the industry will be constantly decreasing profits and a constantly shrinking market, eventually down to allmost nil. No one wants to be the last to bail out from a company whose stock is bound to fall so the fall will start immediately.

        Dramatic decrease in stock value will affect the borrowing ability of those companies diminishing the resources they will have to adapt or diversify. I remember an article, I think in Forbes, several years ago discussing the possible impact of new, cheap energy. They were talking about things like “hot fusion” but one of the conclusions was $14 trillion worth of coal assets world wide becoming worthless almost instantly. That’s security for a lot of debt.

        The oil/coal/gas exporting nations could decide to drop prices drastically to realize as much as possible from their resource before it becomes nearly worthless. This will cause exploration and development to drop off fast. All it takes is one of them to cut prices to start the ball rolling.

        In the long run it will be unquestionably positive for the US and world economy. Replacement of every motor vehicle in the world would be only a small part of it. That will all take time. In the mean time many of the wealthiest people, corporations and nations will suffer.

        Side benefit….. virtually all terrorism is funded with oil money, one way or another.

      • Sandy

        Deutsche Bank has admitted that it and other banks have conspired to rig gold and silver prices. This admission might be used to reset currency prices worldwide. So Rossi and IH may not be the ones who are blamed for a significant decrease of the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar. The banks will get that blame and E-Cat production lines can now be operated at full speed.

        LENR has been liberated!

        http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-14/first-silver-now-gold-deutsche-bank-admits-it-also-rigged-gold-prices-legal-settleme

    • kdk

      It will probably take a steep dip in value, but we’re already seeing that. It will take time to divest away from coal and gas energy production. There isn’t a big market for electric vehicles yet, and it will take time to create the infrastructure for them, or to develop LENR cars. All of these changes would have to happen anyway, considerations for the well-being of humanity aside. Taking out the human part of the equation is usually more convincing to people making decisions.

      People high up in power circles have known free energy was possible for a long time.

    • kdk

      It will probably take a steep dip in value, but we’re already seeing that. It will take time to divest away from coal and gas energy production. There isn’t a big market for electric vehicles yet, and it will take time to create the infrastructure for them, or to develop LENR cars. All of these changes would have to happen anyway, considerations for the well-being of humanity aside. Taking out the human part of the equation is usually more convincing to people making decisions.

      People high up in power circles have known free energy was possible for a long time.

    • Alan DeAngelis
    • Alan DeAngelis
      • psi2u2

        O boy. That is big.

      • psi2u2

        O boy. That is big.

  • Sandy

    Saudi Arabia demands that its customers pay for petroleum with U.S. dollars. That demand and practice (known as the “petrodollar”) supports the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar. If Rossi and IH begin marketing E-Cats and thereby cause the price of petroleum to crash, that crash could in turn cause the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar to collapse by 30 percent or more. In that event, Rossi and IH might become the most hated people in America. I therefore believe that the Rossi v. IH drama is just a delaying tactic.

    On April 19, China will initiate a gold price fixing system. That new system could overturn the London gold price fixing system and thereby cause the U.S.-dollar price of gold to rise rapidly. As the U.S.-dollar price of gold goes up the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar goes down.

    Rossi and IH may be planning to allow China to take the blame for crashing the international exchange value of the U.S. dollar. If that is their plan, they will delay marketing E-Cats until after China has caused and taken the blame for the crash of the U.S. dollar.

  • this Martin Tornberg fella continues to impress me with his smart, thoughtful, well written posts.

    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/#comment-4539

    @All. Please visit LENR Chat: http://www.chatwing.com/LENRChat

  • this Martin Tornberg fella continues to impress me with his smart, thoughtful, well written posts.

    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/#comment-4539

    @All. Please visit LENR Chat: http://www.chatwing.com/LENRChat

    • psi2u2

      Agreed. That is an exceptionally lucid and balanced analysis of the four main possible permutations of facts related to the case.

    • psi2u2

      Agreed. That is an exceptionally lucid and balanced analysis of the four main possible permutations of facts related to the case.

  • Michael W Wolf

    I had that same thought. almost exactly as you laid it out.

  • HiggsField

    It has been said that AR could release the report if he wished without jeopardy to his law suite. I believe that it’s not in AR’s interest to release the report, since all eyes would instantly be upon it, possibly finding fault with the results and/or the method of measurement. That would be a disaster for Rossi, handing IH a win.

  • HiggsField

    It has been said that AR could release the report if he wished without jeopardy to his law suite. I believe that it’s not in AR’s interest to release the report, since all eyes would instantly be upon it, possibly finding fault with the results and/or the method of measurement. That would be a disaster for Rossi, handing IH a win.

    • Ged

      Then IH should release it for an easy win. Maybe they will when they file their defense soon. I am sure there will be a lot of new twists that radically alter our views, when that happens.

    • Ged

      Then IH should release it for an easy win. Maybe they will when they file their defense soon. I am sure there will be a lot of new twists that radically alter our views, when that happens.

    • LarryJ

      Rossi said today that the ERV report will be released as evidence at the trial so it is unlikely we will see it before we see products on the market. By then the report will be moot. In my opinion it is moot already. The ERV is an in house document whose purpose was to referee a contract and assure investors that the tech was ready for commercial production. The publication of the report will not affect anything one way or the other. It is exactly the same as all the other reports, ie controversial. I have great difficulty understanding all the attention people are giving to this report. It may be important for Rossi’s court case which will be decided many years from now but as far as the tech is concerned it is meaningless. We know what it said. Time marches on. What matters are products.

      Andrea Rossi
      April 13, 2016 at 5:30 PM

      Patrick Ellul:

      The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.

      Everything you are reading now is just toilet paper, diffused by professionals of the same and the ones they have paid for.

      I can only repeat what my Attorney wrote in our press release, it is
      that we are pleased by the results. The results are coherent with what I
      have repeatedly written on this blog during the 352 days of test: the
      plant has worked mostly in SSM mode. As all the visitors have seen.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

    • LarryJ

      Rossi said today that the ERV report will be released as evidence at the trial so it is unlikely we will see it before we see products on the market. By then the report will be moot. In my opinion it is moot already. The ERV is an in house document whose purpose was to referee a contract and assure investors that the tech was ready for commercial production. The publication of the report will not affect anything one way or the other. It is exactly the same as all the other reports, ie controversial. I have great difficulty understanding all the attention people are giving to this report. It may be important for Rossi’s court case which will be decided many years from now but as far as the tech is concerned it is meaningless. We know what it said. Time marches on. What matters are products.

      Andrea Rossi
      April 13, 2016 at 5:30 PM

      Patrick Ellul:

      The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.

      Everything you are reading now is just toilet paper, diffused by professionals of the same and the ones they have paid for.

      I can only repeat what my Attorney wrote in our press release, it is
      that we are pleased by the results. The results are coherent with what I
      have repeatedly written on this blog during the 352 days of test: the
      plant has worked mostly in SSM mode. As all the visitors have seen.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

    • timycelyn

      The opposite logic is more credible – don’t put it in the public domain earlier than the court case so that the sh*ts cannot get their tame schills to start picking at it…

  • kdk

    It will probably take a steep dip in value, but we’re already seeing that. It will take time to divest away from coal and gas energy production. There isn’t a big market for electric vehicles yet, and it will take time to create the infrastructure for them, or to develop LENR cars. The cars might take less time than the decade or more that I have in mind. All of these changes would have to happen anyway, considerations for the well-being of humanity aside. Taking out the human part of the equation is usually more convincing to people making decisions.

  • bfast

    I have only two questions — how long will it take for this case to get to the top of the docket? Years? Probably.
    Will everything be stalled until then? Unfortunately, probably.

    • LarryJ

      The court case will affect nothing. Rossi says every day that he is full steam ahead towards production and you can bet IH are going to try and beat him to the market. Why on earth would anyone think the two major players would abandon the invention of the century over a meaningless 89 million dollar lawsuit.

      Neither party needs the permission of the other. They will fight for years over who owns the IP but in the meantime they will make billions.

  • bfast

    I have only two questions — how long will it take for this case to get to the top of the docket? Years? Probably.
    Will everything be stalled until then? Unfortunately, probably.

    • LarryJ

      The court case will affect nothing. Rossi says every day that he is full steam ahead towards production and you can bet IH are going to try and beat him to the market. Why on earth would anyone think the two major players would abandon the invention of the century over a meaningless 89 million dollar lawsuit.

      Neither party needs the permission of the other. They will fight for years over who owns the IP but in the meantime they will make billions.

    • LarryJ

      The court case will affect nothing. Rossi says every day that he is full steam ahead towards production and you can bet IH are going to try and beat him to the market. Why on earth would anyone think the two major players would abandon the invention of the century over a meaningless 89 million dollar lawsuit.

      Neither party needs the permission of the other. They will fight for years over who owns the IP but in the meantime they will make billions.

  • bfast

    I have only two questions — how long will it take for this case to get to the top of the docket? Years? Probably.
    Will everything be stalled until then? Unfortunately, probably.

  • Alan DeAngelis
    • psi2u2

      O boy. That is big.

  • bfast

    Can IH and Rossi not settle this with mediation? Can’t they act like adults, put their cards on the table? Show where the error is, let Penon see the error, or show that the perceived error is only an illusion. If it is as billed, this technology will transform the world! Saying “it doesn’t work, we know that, but we can’t say why” is just, well, dumb!

    • LarryJ

      None of this affects either party’s ability to start building reactors. Why would they waste time on mediation. Now the job is to start building reactors and grab as much market share as you can before the other guy can. Both parties know the reactor works and that there are trillions to be made. The court case will wend its way over the years but is a very small detail in the big picture. Publication of the ERV report is meaningless. It has already done its job. The major players know what it said and so do the two major players. Public opinion is irrelevant. Once there are products the public will buy them.

  • bfast

    Can IH and Rossi not settle this with mediation? Can’t they act like adults, put their cards on the table? Show where the error is, let Penon see the error, or show that the perceived error is only an illusion. If it is as billed, this technology will transform the world! Saying “it doesn’t work, we know that, but we can’t say why” is just, well, dumb!

    • john M

      Mediation is only effective if both of the parties have at least some interest in settling.

    • john M

      Mediation is only effective if both of the parties have at least some interest in settling.

      • bfast

        If the issue here is purely technical, works or doesn’t, both parties have interest in settling the issue. If issue isn’t purely technical, then this is all just a smoke screen. ‘Still can’t figure out why IH wants to smoke screen.

        • LilyLover

          To preserve petrodollar and the “free ride” it offers the cruel people of the world. Abnksters…

        • LilyLover

          To preserve petrodollar and the “free ride” it offers the cruel people of the world. Abnksters…

        • LarryJ

          It is because whoever owns the IP at this point is a relatively minor issue that only affects licensing fees. What really matters now is market share. With Rossi’s help IH built a reactor that produced an average cop > 50. They did it once, they can do it again. That is the point of a prototype. The ERV was intended to initiate the industrialization phase and this is what it has done. What you are now witnessing is the beginning of the industrialization phase, warts and all.

      • bfast

        If the issue here is purely technical, works or doesn’t, both parties have interest in settling the issue. If issue isn’t purely technical, then this is all just a smoke screen. ‘Still can’t figure out why IH wants to smoke screen.

    • LarryJ

      None of this affects either party’s ability to start building reactors. Why would they waste time on mediation. Now the job is to start building reactors and grab as much market share as you can before the other guy can. Both parties know the reactor works and that there are trillions to be made. The court case will wend its way over the years but is a very small detail in the big picture. Publication of the ERV report is meaningless. It has already done its job. The major players know what it said and so do we. Public opinion is irrelevant. Once there are products the public will buy them.

      • guitarwebs

        Yes worth trillions, but why would the powers that be let over 67 trillion sit in the ground under active fields today? Again, money talks….everyone has a price….think about a one billion dollar bribe…to us a lot of money, to them still peanuts.

        Just saying

    • LarryJ

      None of this affects either party’s ability to start building reactors. Why would they waste time on mediation. Now the job is to start building reactors and grab as much market share as you can before the other guy can. Both parties know the reactor works and that there are trillions to be made. The court case will wend its way over the years but is a very small detail in the big picture. Publication of the ERV report is meaningless. It has already done its job. The major players know what it said and so do we. Public opinion is irrelevant. Once there are products the public will buy them.

  • bfast

    Can IH and Rossi not settle this with mediation? Can’t they act like adults, put their cards on the table? Show where the error is, let Penon see the error, or show that the perceived error is only an illusion. If it is as billed, this technology will transform the world! Saying “it doesn’t work, we know that, but we can’t say why” is just, well, dumb!

  • Ged

    Then IH should release it for an easy win. Maybe they will when they file their defense soon. I am sure there will be a lot of new twists that radically alter our views, when that happens.

  • gdaigle

    If I may paraphrase, IH isn’t say that the plant doesn’t work, only that they haven’t been given enough evidence that the plant does work. That is very disconcerting since it is essentially what the jury of 12 scientists said of Steorn — not that they proved the Orbo did not work, but that Steorn did not provide enough data to show to their satisfaction that it did work. Less than a year later Steorn went underground for 5 years and their technology is still in dispute. I hope that does not befall the E-Cat.

    • Allan Shura

      It appears one Orbo power prototype uses a small high density battery to recharge a minimalist capacitor and current draw as described. The price is for a high end trendy market the economics
      are lost at the price for the mass market.

      • SG

        Except that the Orbo cell in Frank’s possession appears not to have the functional characteristics of a typical RC circuit + battery. See the Orbo thread for more details. Still sleuthing–nothing certain at this stage.

    • Allan Shura

      It appears one Orbo power prototype uses a small high density battery to recharge a minimalist capacitor and current draw as described. The price is for a high end trendy market the economics
      are lost at the price for the mass market.

    • DrD

      Sure, but you can’t fail to notice that a product in the market place has a COP of >50.
      If it doesn’t start to appear in the next few months I will then probably abandon hope but right now, this law suit is a bit of a sideline. Meanwhile lets see some E-Cat’s and quarks.

  • gdaigle

    If I may paraphrase, IH isn’t say that the plant doesn’t work, only that they haven’t been given enough evidence that the plant does work. That is very disconcerting since it is essentially what the jury of 12 scientists said of Steorn — not that they proved the Orbo did not work, but that Steorn did not provide enough data to show to their satisfaction that it did work. Less than a year later Steorn went underground for 5 years and their technology is still in dispute. I hope that does not befall the E-Cat.

  • Jed just exposed his rationalization acumen with this post where he shows his irrational bias against Rossi….. “supposes” IH must be correct because Rossi is Rossi. now claims plant did not even produced 1MW period, nevermind at COP >1.

    http://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair#comment-4548

    wow.

  • Jed just exposed his rationalization acumen with this post where he shows his irrational bias against Rossi….. “supposes” IH must be correct because Rossi is Rossi. now claims plant did not even produced 1MW period, nevermind at COP >1.

    http://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair#comment-4548

    wow.

  • Roland

    APCO’s assignment for Imperial Oil was to bring together a roster of climate change skeptics to reveal Kyoto’s “science and technology fatal flaws.”

    An APCO specialty is supporting rogue scientists who are financed by industry and purport to challenge established scientific thinking. APCO organized The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, which was originally funded by the Philip Morris Company, to attack epidemiological studies which implicated environmental tobacco smoke in slightly increased rates of lung cancer in non-smokers. Such studies could not be allowed to stand, given the tobacco industry’s claim that harm from smoking was regrettable but due to individual choice, not second-hand smoke. This work was essential in Philip Morris’ efforts to limit the impact of passive smoking regulations. APCO then widened the financial catchment to include other companies with poisoning or polluting problems. The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition was so successful that it was assigned a lead role in opposing Kyoto.

    I’d like to extend a warm E-catworld welcome to the influx of APCO trolls, spin baby spin….

    • Timar

      So we have Cherokee portraining themselves as impeccable environmentalists and climate activists, employing the help of the very agency responsible for fabricating some of the worst industry propaganda against environment and health protection concerns. How does that ryhme, and what light does it throw on Darden and his “white knights”?

      • Michael W Wolf

        Sounds like a big fat conflict of interest. Unbelievable. Rossi should
        have sued for breach after IH failed to find the test facility. If Rossi
        was a fraud, this would have been a perfect iron clad opportunity to
        get
        the 89 million and not have to test the 1mw reactor. But what did Rossi
        do? He LET them off the hook for the breach and found a site to
        imprison himself in. This is the smoking gun for Rossi supporters. Rossi
        has a new energy reactor and IH are scumbags of the highest order I am
        afraid. They NEVER intended to give Rossi the 89 million.

      • Josh G

        Yes, but it turns out Cherokee has engaged in its fair share of questionable practices:

        https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/#comment-4566

  • Roland

    APCO’s assignment for Imperial Oil was to bring together a roster of climate change skeptics to reveal Kyoto’s “science and technology fatal flaws.”

    An APCO specialty is supporting rogue scientists who are financed by industry and purport to challenge established scientific thinking. APCO organized The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, which was originally funded by the Philip Morris Company, to attack epidemiological studies which implicated environmental tobacco smoke in slightly increased rates of lung cancer in non-smokers. Such studies could not be allowed to stand, given the tobacco industry’s claim that harm from smoking was regrettable but due to individual choice, not second-hand smoke. This work was essential in Philip Morris’ efforts to limit the impact of passive smoking regulations. APCO then widened the financial catchment to include other companies with poisoning or polluting problems. The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition was so successful that it was assigned a lead role in opposing Kyoto.

    I’d like to extend a warm E-catworld welcome to the influx of APCO trolls, spin baby spin….

  • Roland

    APCO’s assignment for Imperial Oil was to bring together a roster of climate change skeptics to reveal Kyoto’s “science and technology fatal flaws.”

    An APCO specialty is supporting rogue scientists who are financed by industry and purport to challenge established scientific thinking. APCO organized The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, which was originally funded by the Philip Morris Company, to attack epidemiological studies which implicated environmental tobacco smoke in slightly increased rates of lung cancer in non-smokers. Such studies could not be allowed to stand, given the tobacco industry’s claim that harm from smoking was regrettable but due to individual choice, not second-hand smoke. This work was essential in Philip Morris’ efforts to limit the impact of passive smoking regulations. APCO then widened the financial catchment to include other companies with poisoning or polluting problems. The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition was so successful that it was assigned a lead role in opposing Kyoto.

    I’d like to extend a warm E-catworld welcome to the influx of APCO trolls, spin baby spin….

    • ugh. that’s troubling.

      We are so fortunate that Vaughn didn’t know how to BCC, or we wouldn’t even know that APCO is involved.

    • ugh. that’s troubling.

      We are so fortunate that Vaughn didn’t know how to BCC, or we wouldn’t even know that APCO is involved.

    • Timar

      So we have Cherokee portraining themselves as impeccable environmentalists and climate activists, employing the help of the very agency responsible for fabricating some of the worst industry propaganda against environment and health protection concerns. How does that ryhme, and what light does it throw on Darden and his “white knights”?

      • Michael W Wolf

        Sounds like a big fat conflict of interest. Unbelievable. Rossi should
        have sued for breach after IH failed to find the test facility. If Rossi
        was a fraud, this would have been a perfect iron clad opportunity to
        get
        the 89 million and not have to test the 1mw reactor. But what did Rossi
        do? He LET them off the hook for the breach and found a site to
        imprison himself in. This is the smoking gun for Rossi supporters. Rossi
        has a new energy reactor and IH are scumbags of the highest order I am
        afraid. They NEVER intended to give Rossi the 89 million.

      • Josh G

        Yes, but it turns out Cherokee has engaged in its fair share of questionable practices:

        https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/#comment-4566

  • LarryJ

    Rossi said today that the ERV report will be released as evidence at the trial so it is unlikely we will see it before we see products on the market. By then the report will be moot. In my opinion it is moot already. The ERV is an in house document whose purpose was to referee a contract and assure investors that the tech was ready for commercial production. The publication of the report will not affect anything one way or the other. It is exactly the same as all the other reports, ie controversial. I have great difficulty understanding all the attention people are giving to this report. It may be important for Rossi’s court case which will be decided many years from now but as far as the tech is concerned it is meaningless. We know what it said. Time marches on. What matters are products.

    Andrea Rossi
    April 13, 2016 at 5:30 PM

    Patrick Ellul:

    The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.

    Everything you are reading now is just toilet paper, diffused by professionals of the same and the ones they have paid for.

    I can only repeat what my Attorney wrote in our press release, it is
    that we are pleased by the results. The results are coherent with what I
    have repeatedly written on this blog during the 352 days of test: the
    plant has worked mostly in SSM mode. As all the visitors have seen.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • Allan Shura

    Is it true they claim a similar working design but disregard the one the Rossi mentored and contracted? Will this be almost like a Defkalion II that faded without a wimper or make it to a hearing? Yet it is just business.

  • Allan Shura

    Is it true they claim a similar working design but disregard the one the Rossi mentored and contracted? Will this be almost like a Defkalion II that faded without a wimper or make it to a hearing? Yet it is just business.

  • Allan Shura

    Is it true they claim a similar working design but disregard the one the Rossi mentored and contracted? Will this be almost like a Defkalion II that faded without a wimper or make it to a hearing? Yet it is just business.

  • Of course IH has to say they do not believe the report and sacrifice Penon. What else can they do? Its the only way they can justify not paying the $89M. Jed is only their messenger of choice here. Reading between the lines this also says indirectly that the reference to the ERV in the complaint is correct, ie COP~50 (this could now be considered a fact and acknowledged by IH). So it only verifies that this is a credibility game as stated in the first Apco letter from IH. It’s all about damage control.

    I believe it is the best thing for Rossi to do, to hold on to the report until the court case. I believe IH is leaking parts of it to get help by selected people to find possible scenarios to attack it. I believe some of these are already worked out to be used if Rossi releases the report. This I believe Rossi knows. As I said numerous times on http://sifferkoll.se ; it is really easy to create fraud and incompetence scenarios when these only have to be stated, not proved. Impossible to defend against.

    So, to summarize. This is good. IH acknowledge that the Penon report says COP~50, althoug they will attack it anyway they can since could save them $89M. Rossi is making the right choice holding on to it, since it is now indirectly acknowledged by IH. Releasing it, would only give the inferior people more details to attack and fraud scenarios to work on.

    • timycelyn

      I think Rossi and his strategists hve reached the same conclusion about publication of the report. We ca nbreathe a small sigh of relief:

      Andrea Rossi
      April 13, 2016 at 5:30 PM
      Patrick Ellul:
      The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.
      Everything you are reading now is just toilet paper, diffused by professionals of the same and the ones they have paid for.
      I can only repeat what my Attorney wrote in our press release, it is that we are pleased by the results. The results are coherent with what I have repeatedly written on this blog during the 352 days of test: the plant has worked mostly in SSM mode. As all the visitors have seen.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

        The plant was set with 6 Hot Cats. And the CatX was an idea to get electriciy directly from the E-Cat as the conversion from steam to electricity was not eficience enough.

        So now we have two technologies – Hot Cat and Ecat-X wich could be used in two different environments.

  • Of course IH has to say they do not believe the report and sacrifice Penon. What else can they do? Its the only way they can justify not paying the $89M. Jed is only their messenger of choice here. Reading between the lines this also says indirectly that the reference to the ERV in the complaint is correct, ie COP~50 (this could now be considered a fact and acknowledged by IH). So it only verifies that this is a credibility game as stated in the first Apco letter from IH. It’s all about damage control.

    I believe it is the best thing for Rossi to do, to hold on to the report until the court case. I believe IH is leaking parts of it to get help by selected people to find possible scenarios to attack it. I believe some of these are already worked out to be used if Rossi releases the report. This I believe Rossi knows. As I said numerous times on http://sifferkoll.se ; it is really easy to create fraud and incompetence scenarios when these only have to be stated, not proved. Impossible to defend against.

    So, to summarize. This is good. IH acknowledge that the Penon report says COP~50, althoug they will attack it anyway they can since could save them $89M. Rossi is making the right choice holding on to it, since it is now indirectly acknowledged by IH. Releasing it, would only give the inferior people more details to attack and fraud scenarios to work on.

  • Of course IH has to say they do not believe the report and sacrifice Penon. What else can they do? Its the only way they can justify not paying the $89M. Jed is only their messenger of choice here. Reading between the lines this also says indirectly that the reference to the ERV in the complaint is correct, ie COP~50 (this could now be considered a fact and acknowledged by IH). So it only verifies that this is a credibility game as stated in the first Apco letter from IH. It’s all about damage control.

    I believe it is the best thing for Rossi to do, to hold on to the report until the court case. I believe IH is leaking parts of it to get help by selected people to find possible scenarios to attack it. I believe some of these are already worked out to be used if Rossi releases the report. This I believe Rossi knows. As I said numerous times on http://sifferkoll.se ; it is really easy to create fraud and incompetence scenarios when these only have to be stated, not proved. Impossible to defend against.

    So, to summarize. This is good. IH acknowledge that the Penon report says COP~50, althoug they will attack it anyway they can since could save them $89M. Rossi is making the right choice holding on to it, since it is now indirectly acknowledged by IH. Releasing it, would only give the inferior people more details to attack and fraud scenarios to work on.

    • Евгений Максимов

      To prove necessary to carry out a new test technology. Without the involvement of the Industrial Heat and A.Rossi.

      All the rest – words that can be challenged. On the one and the other side.

    • timycelyn

      I think Rossi and his strategists hve reached the same conclusion about publication of the report. We can breathe a small sigh of relief:

      (Edit) Ooops, sorry Larry, I see u’ve alreay covered this!

      Andrea Rossi
      April 13, 2016 at 5:30 PM
      Patrick Ellul:
      The Report will be published after it will have been disclosed in the Court.
      Everything you are reading now is just toilet paper, diffused by professionals of the same and the ones they have paid for.
      I can only repeat what my Attorney wrote in our press release, it is that we are pleased by the results. The results are coherent with what I have repeatedly written on this blog during the 352 days of test: the plant has worked mostly in SSM mode. As all the visitors have seen.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

    • LesioQ

      Looks like the lying party shall be identified as one that’s preventing the report from going public ASAP, for open consideration.

  • As I said from the beginning of the test: The most important part of this test is the identitiy and background of the ERV.

    Rossi often said this person is independent and part of an organization.

    Now it’s a well known freelancer who was involved in E-Cat tests before, where his measurement methods were heavily criticised.

    This is typical for Rossi. Each time the same loopholes…

    • LarryJ

      The ERV is now a meaningless document which will not be published for many months or years. Everybody already knows what it said, including Leonardo and IH. The ERV report is an in house document and is meaningless for the purpose of validating the technology to the public. It’s purpose was to validate the technology for investors and industrialists. This it has already done.

      As far as the court case is concerned, of course IH are going to dispute it, but that is just legal wrangling and has no bearing on reality. IH know it works and will be racing to build reactors as will Leonardo.

      • I know that the ERV report is not important for the general public.

        But the way it was done is again very very disappointing, even for the general public.

        We here trusted Rossi for a long time. But now this seems to have it’s end, at least for me.
        I already struggled by reading the name “penon” in the lawsuit and thought it would end like this…

        • LarryJ

          Penon was acceptable to the parties involved. There was never any attempt to convince the public. Your expectations were unreasonable.

          • As we see now, IH had no trust in Rossi.

            It seems like they agreed Rossi to chose his ERV himself, while IH itself had their own ERV (maybe undercover as one of the employees in the plant).

            Now they can compare and close the case “Rossi”.

          • LarryJ

            Really! IH signed off on the official ERV so they could employ undercover ERVs. Now you are just grasping at straws.

            IH trusted Rossi because with his help they built a commercial reactor with a proven cop > 50 and you can rest assured they can build more of them. Now they want market share. They will argue about IP later.

          • Proven COP > 50?

            This is the fact on stake here. Was it measured properly?

            LarryJ, I don’t argument against you, don’t take it personal. But the only thing which could convince me know is a mass replication of a device similar to Rossis.

          • LarryJ

            Nobody will ever agree that any test is measured properly. That is an unreasonable expectation. If you have been following the history then you know this is true and Rossi certainly knows it is true. The purpose of the ERV was to validate the technology. Now it has done so and as to be expected you and many others will say “Oh well, maybe not”. That is what the public will always say. The only thing that will convince you and the rest of the general public is the mass replication, called products in the market, that will allow you to plug it into your wall and do your own test. That day is coming.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Comon Barty, 50 COP has no room for error. It is either true or there is a mass conspiracy with people from IH in on it.

          • DrD

            It certainly doesn’t look that way to me.

          • Steve Swatman

            So You were a fly on the wall 😉 I would not be at all surprised if that conversation happened.

          • timycelyn

            Do try and remember to take your medications, you know that they help.

            These lions you refer to arn’t really there, you know – just take the little white tablets and it will all become peaceful again with no more lions….

          • NCkhawk

            It doesn’t matter what you think. Rossi knows that he has now become the prey The silence of the night is deafening. It didn’t have to be that way. He is making horrible moves these days and this will not end well for him.

          • Brent Buckner

            The License Agreement Section 13.1 (http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf) contemplates Rossi taking on the role of Chief Scientist at IH with a separate agreement relating to that. I’ll be interested if we see such a thing in IH’s court filing.

          • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

            Well. We could lose our trust in Rossi, yes. But, think about one thing.

            If the liar is Rossi. Then why IH statements a few months ago were that they were very pleased with the 1 Year test.

            This makes no sense at all. For me the ones who acted in a bad way were them. They are the ones that showed us that we shouldnt trust them.

            At this time i keep my mind open but i wont say Rossi is a fraud until i get more evidence.

          • pg

            They must have watched Ocean’s 12 before that meeting…

          • DrD

            Very true.
            You can’t agree the rules, play the game till the final score and then declare you don’t agree with the rules after all.

      • timycelyn

        We seem to be getting an invasion of schills. This is getting a tiny bit tedious..

        • wpj

          I accidentally got redirected to ECN; with the vitriol there towards this site, AR, MFMP I’m sure that it is populated by the spawn of MY, GW and freeenergyscams.

          At least the people here actually discuss rather than go in for the kill with each announcement.

          • timycelyn

            That place can seriously damage your sanity! When they drivel on, you can sense the staring eyes, the flying spittle, the wild gestures.

            I’m sure that if one was in a room with one of more of them the natural reaction would be to speak slowly and calmingly whilst inching backwards towards the door.

            I’m afraid the worst condemnation I have for some schill who has irritated me beyond human endurance is to suggest he relocates to that group where he will find kindred spirits…

  • As I said from the beginning of the test: The most important part of this test is the identitiy and background of the ERV.

    Rossi often said this person is independent and part of an organization.

    Now it’s a well known freelancer who was involved in E-Cat tests before, where his measurement methods were heavily criticised.

    This is typical for Rossi. Each time the same loopholes…

  • As I said from the beginning of the test: The most important part of this test is the identitiy and background of the ERV.

    Rossi often said this person is independent and part of an organization.

    Now it’s a well known freelancer who was involved in E-Cat tests before, where his measurement methods were heavily criticised.

    This is typical for Rossi. Each time the same loopholes…

    • Engineer48

      His expertise and report was good enough for IH to pay Rossi $10m but now his expertise is somehow lacking when measuring a 1MWt reactor with a COP significantly > 50 over 352 days?

      To make that a bit clearer, at COP = 50, the averaged input electricity would be 20kWs and the thermal output as steam would be 1,000kWs. Sorry but even blind Freddy could do that measurement.

      Then of course there is the customer’s electricity bill that will for sure be presented in court.

    • Engineer48

      His expertise and report was good enough for IH to pay Rossi $10m but now his expertise is somehow lacking when measuring a 1MWt reactor with a COP significantly > 50 over 352 days?

      To make that a bit clearer, at COP = 50, the averaged input electricity would be 20kWs and the thermal output as steam would be 1,000kWs. Sorry but even blind Freddy could do that measurement.

      Then of course there is the customer’s electricity bill that will for sure be presented in court.

      • blanco69

        I agree, a COP of 50 would not be difficult to confirm …. or deny. No F9 required. My concern now is that in order to wiggle out of their contractual obligations, IH dont believe a COP of 50, but but are happy with a COP of, say, 30. For us it’s still a great result but for IH it’s a saving of $89M.

        • Engineer48

          Contract says COP >= 6 requires full payment. Prorated payment between < 6 to 1. Only way IH can pay zero is if COP = 1 or less.

        • Engineer48

          COP >= 6 requires full payment. Prorates down to $0 at COP 1 or less.

    • LarryJ

      The ERV is now a meaningless document which will not be published for many months or years. Everybody already knows what it said, including Leonardo and IH. The ERV report is an in house document and is meaningless for the purpose of validating the technology to the public. It’s purpose was to validate the technology for investors and industrialists. This it has already done.

      As far as the court case is concerned, of course IH are going to dispute it, but that is just legal wrangling and has no bearing on reality. IH know it works and will be racing to build reactors as will Leonardo.

    • LarryJ

      The ERV is now a meaningless document which will not be published for many months or years. Everybody already knows what it said, including Leonardo and IH. The ERV report is an in house document and is meaningless for the purpose of validating the technology to the public. It’s purpose was to validate the technology for investors and industrialists. This it has already done.

      As far as the court case is concerned, of course IH are going to dispute it, but that is just legal wrangling and has no bearing on reality. IH know it works and will be racing to build reactors as will Leonardo.

      • I know that the ERV report is not important for the general public.

        But the way it was done is again very very disappointing, even for the general public.

        We here trusted Rossi for a long time. But now this seems to have it’s end, at least for me.
        I already struggled by reading the name “penon” in the lawsuit and thought it would end like this…

        • LarryJ

          Penon was acceptable to the parties involved. There was never any attempt to convince the public. Your expectations were unreasonable.

          • As we see now, IH had no trust in Rossi.

            It seems like they agreed Rossi to chose his ERV himself, while IH itself had their own ERV (maybe undercover as one of the employees in the plant).

            Now they can compare and close the case “Rossi”.

          • LarryJ

            Really! IH signed off on the official ERV so they could employ undercover ERVs. Now you are just grasping at straws.

            IH trusted Rossi because with his help they built a commercial reactor with a proven cop > 50 and you can rest assured they can build more of them. Now they want market share. They will argue about IP later.

          • Proven COP > 50?

            This is the fact on stake here. Was it measured properly?

            LarryJ, I don’t argument against you, don’t take it personal. But the only thing which could convince me know is a mass replication of a device similar to Rossis.

          • LarryJ

            Nobody will ever agree that any test is measured properly. That is an unreasonable expectation. If you have been following the history then you know this is true and Rossi certainly knows it is true. The purpose of the ERV was to validate the technology. Now it has done so and as to be expected you and many others will say “Oh well, maybe not”. That is what the public will always say. The only thing that will convince you and the rest of the general public is the mass replication, called products in the market, that will allow you to plug it into your wall and do your own test. That day is coming.

          • Евгений Максимов

            A.Rossi device may become unstable. There is no clear efficiency. Unfinished crude product from A.Rossi, so he his constantly “improving”. It is too early misses with the publication in the public. Greed for money.

            But the principle of the device is correct. It can be different. On calcium hydride.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Comon Barty, 50 COP has no room for error. It is either true or there is a mass conspiracy with people from IH in on it.

          • DrD

            It certainly doesn’t look that way to me.

          • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

            Well. We could lose our trust in Rossi, yes. But, think about one thing.

            If the liar is Rossi. Then why IH statements a few months ago were that they were very pleased with the 1 Year test.

            This makes no sense at all. For me the ones who acted in a bad way were them. They are the ones that showed us that we shouldnt trust them.

            At this time i keep my mind open but i wont say Rossi is a fraud until i get more evidence.

          • DrD

            Very true.
            You can’t agree the rules, play the game till the final score and then declare you don’t agree with the rules after all.

        • LarryJ

          Penon was acceptable to the parties involved. There was never any attempt to convince the public. Your expectations were unreasonable.

      • I know that the ERV report is not important for the general public.

        But the way it was done is again very very disappointing, even for the general public.

        We here trusted Rossi for a long time. But now this seems to have it’s end, at least for me.
        I already struggled by reading the name “penon” in the lawsuit and thought it would end like this…

  • bfast

    If the issue here is purely technical, works or doesn’t, both parties have interest in settling the issue. If issue isn’t purely technical, then this is all just a smoke screen. ‘Still can’t figure out why IH wants to smoke screen.

    • LilyLover

      To preserve petrodollar and the “free ride” it offers the cruel people of the world. Abnksters…

    • LarryJ

      It is because whoever owns the IP at this point is a relatively minor issue that only affects licensing fees. What really matters now is market share. With Rossi’s help IH built a reactor that produced an average cop > 50. They did it once, they can do it again. That is the point of a prototype. The ERV was intended to initiate the industrialization phase and this is what it has done. What you are now witnessing is the beginning of the industrialization phase, warts and all.

  • Engineer48

    Ok Guys, go find the boiler approval Rossi obtained. As the date range is known, should not be that had to find the “1MW Boiler Approval”, the address and boiler supplier / owner details.

    =====================
    63. Despite IH’s and IPH’s continued failure to secure an adequate testing facility,
    ROSSI took it upon himself to locate and secure a location in which to conduct the Guaranteed
    Performance Test, as well as obtain the requisite regulatory approvals for the operation of the ECat
    Unit.

    64. On or before August 13,2014, ROSSI and LEONARDO located a customer in
    Miami, Florida, who agreed to allow its facility to be used for the Guaranteed Performance Test
    and even agreed to pay IH up to One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00) per day for the energy
    produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test
    ======================

  • SG

    Yes, the most blatant inconsistency of all. IH have a lot of explaining to do.

  • Engineer48

    Just to clarify things a bit please refer to these clauses of the complaint:

    =============

    65. Accordingly, on January 28,2015, the ERV prepared and submitted to the parties
    a proposed test protocol for the Guaranteed Performance Test. After suggesting minor changes to
    the test protocol, and clarifying other points, DARDEN on behalf of IH andlor IPH agreed to the
    test protocol prior to the commencement of the Guaranteed Performance Test.

    66. Under the supervision of the ERV, the Guaranteed Performance Test was
    commenced on or about February 19, 2015, after the ERV had performed a thorough inspection
    of the E-Cat Unit and installed his monitoring equipment therein.

    67. During the Guaranteed Performance Test period, IH and/or IPH engaged and paid
    two of their representatives, Mr. Barry West and Mr. Fulvio Fabiani, to monitor, maintain, take
    part in, and report on the operation of the E-Cat Unit being tested.

    68. Throughout the Guaranteed Performance testing period, the results of the test,
    including measurements and operational status, were routinely reported to DARDEN, VAUGHN,
    IH and IPH by ROSSI, the ERV and IH/IPH’s agents Mr. Fabiani and Mr. V/est.

    =============

  • Reading through comments on Vortex I feel sorry for Jed. I believe he has been played in this spin, and now he’s loosing his usual stringency in comments stating for example that Penon is a “certified idiot” only on basis the 2012 report even though he has been chosen several times after that to perform tests on behalf of IH. As I wrote this is the type of inconsistencies we’re looking for to analyse the game.

    • SG

      He is probably feeling attacked right now and getting frustrated. But if you are going to start acting as IH’s unofficial spokesperson, expect your words to be scrutinized by the community given that IH has bestowed a giant present to the skeptopathic hostile types who have attacked LENR community members for 25 years. If IH wanted to improve its image (which apparently it does having hired a PR firm), then they shouldn’t throw bones to the anti-LENR crowd.

      • Michael W Wolf

        I’ll tell you one thing, if you say something around here, it had better be sincere and accurate. Cause someone from here will always bust it if you aren’t.

    • Argon

      Agree about Jed. He first made pretty straightforward claims there, and when questioned he started to round his story. Now he is doing damage control in Matts blog.
      I have been giving value for his comments before, but have to say that taking Three mile island failures, Rossis missing ‘Relief valve’ in NASA setup and dry cleaning steam boilers to fill in his story doesn’t prevent me start to suspect him being IH/Apco influenced.

  • Reading through comments on Vortex I feel sorry for Jed. I believe he has been played in this spin, and now he’s loosing his usual stringency in comments stating for example that Penon is a “certified idiot” only on basis the 2012 report even though he has been chosen several times after that to perform tests on behalf of IH.

    • SG

      He is probably feeling attacked right now and getting frustrated. But if you are going to start acting as IH’s unofficial spokesperson, expect your words to be scrutinized by the community given that IH has bestowed a giant present to the skeptopathic hostile types who have attacked LENR community members for 25 years. If IH wanted to improve its image (which apparently it does having hired a PR firm), then they shouldn’t throw bones to the anti-LENR crowd.

      • Michael W Wolf

        I’ll tell you one thing, if you say something around here, it had better be sincere and accurate. Cause someone from here will always bust it if you aren’t.

    • Argon

      Agree about Jed. He first made pretty straightforward claims there, and when questioned he started to round his story. Now he is doing damage control in Matts blog.
      I have been giving value for his comments before, but have to say that taking Three mile island failures, Rossis missing ‘Relief valve’ in NASA setup and dry cleaning steam boilers to fill in his story doesn’t prevent me start to suspect him being IH/Apco influenced.
      Edit: And the link is here https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/#comments and btw I like way Martin Tornberg tries to solve this puzzle there.

  • Евгений Максимов

    Reptiloids take over the world
    🙂
    …and the first е-cat

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6ST9dsDGRg

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Wait, wait, wait. Take it back. a.ashfield wrote “My reading of IH’s statement is quite different. I don’t recall them saying there was no heat. They said THEY could not duplicate Rossi’s results. That is not the same thing.” This is just a honest reading of IH’s earlier public statement. Then Jed answered “They say the one-year test did not work. Believe me, that is what they say.”

    It’s unclear whether Jed refers to some inside information gotten from IH or if the debate between Jed and a.ashfield is just about how to interpret IH’s earlier public statement. Without evidence for the former, I consider the latter possibility more likely (and in that case, a.ashfield is clearly the one who’s correct).

    Whatever, but unless IH officially names Jed as their spokesman, I stick to IH’s own earlier advice and ignore any communication which is not coming directly from them.

    • DrD

      Actually, I think even “results” is a miss quote, wasn’t it “claims”?

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yep, IH was deceptive and contradictory in their statement.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Wait, wait, wait. Take it back. a.ashfield wrote “My reading of IH’s statement is quite different. I don’t recall them saying there was no heat. They said THEY could not duplicate Rossi’s results. That is not the same thing.” This is just a honest reading of IH’s earlier public statement. Then Jed answered “They say the one-year test did not work. Believe me, that is what they say.”

    It’s unclear whether Jed refers to some inside information gotten from IH or if the debate between Jed and a.ashfield is just about how to interpret IH’s earlier public statement. Without evidence for the former, I consider the latter possibility more likely (and in that case, a.ashfield is clearly the one who’s correct).

    Whatever, but unless IH officially names Jed as their spokesman, I stick to IH’s own earlier advice and ignore any communication which is not coming directly from them.

    • Mats002

      Thanks Pekka. The ECW:ers talking up the storm about rumors that can not be substansiated ^^

      Go dig out some real facts instead – like who is this Barry White guy or anyone in Florida lift their ass off the armchair and go to the address of the 1 MW plant (not just zooming in google earth)

    • DrD

      Actually, I think even “results” is a miss quote, wasn’t it “claims”?

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yep, IH was deceptive and contradictory in their statement.

  • timycelyn

    The opposite logic is more credible – don’t put it in the public domain earlier than the court case so that the sh*ts cannot get their tame schills to start picking at it…

  • wpj

    So the MD of this unit (who supposedly met IH, Woodford, Chinese) was another actor in Rossi’s deception? Then there was no scaled down production facility for which the precise energy requirement was known?

  • Alan Smith

    It wasn’t always just Rossi and Fulviani in that reactor control cabin. There are published photos showing at least 4 people in there, presumable taken by a fifth. It was never the desert island one might imagine.

    • wpj

      Don’t forget the supposed sceptical engineer from the supposed client (must have cost a huge amount in actors’ fees).

  • Alan Smith

    It wasn’t always just Rossi and Fulviani in that reactor control cabin. There are published photos showing at least 4 people in there, presumable taken by a fifth. It was never the desert island one might imagine.

    • wpj

      Don’t forget the supposed sceptical engineer from the supposed client (must have cost a huge amount in actors’ fees).

  • LT

    My take,

    I worked in the past for a company which made equipment used for industrial processes. In that equipment a lot of parameters where controlled, flows, temperatures, mixes of components etc,
    We sold that equipment with an in house derived recipe which guaranteed a minimum performance.
    Sometimes our customers wanted a better performance or a process tuned to their wishes. In both cases a process engineer of our company would come in to make sure the minimum performance was met or to tune the recipe to the customers wishes. After showing by the process engineer that the equipment could perform the assigned task, it was up to the process engineers of the customer to keep the system within specifications from then on.

    One time we where sitting together for dinner at a hotel, where several people of our company stayed working on different projects for different customers in that vicinity. One process engineer complained that, after several days of tweaking, she could not get the process within specifications. One of our employees, which in the past (10 – 15 year before) had been working as a process engineer asked her to bring her lab book, so she went to her room and brought it to our dinner table. The ex process engineer looked for some time at the figures and told her the settings she had to try. The next evening at dinner we asked her how it had gone and she said the equipment performed dead on to the required specifications.

    This showed that tuning processes to specifications is an art. You have to learn that art through experience and gaining insights.
    Now if our company would sell it’s IP, would this art be included in the IP ? Certainly not, the standard recipe would be included but not the art to get other or better performance.
    If we project this on the E-CAT, we have a situation that there probably only one E-CAT process engineer which has learned through experiments and testing the art of tuning the E-CAT to performance beyond the standard recipe delivered with the IP. And we have learned that Rossi applied his skills by getting in due time much larger self sustain mode times and thereby increasing the COP of the E-CAT plant.

    But what about if IH did not recognize the fact or understood the fact that some art is needed to get better performance. They would have concluded from a COP of 50 in the EVR, while they in house only get a COP of near 10 that :

    – Rossi did not give all the IP
    – or the EVR must be wrong

    Which, if art is involved might be a wrong conclusion.
    It also indicates that the E-CAT, while being a product that can be used, is not (yet) up to a level that for each unit equal high COPS can be guaranteed. Only after the science of tuning the system by people understanding the art can be translated into control algorithms will mass production of units with the same performance be possible.
    Possibly Rossi was able and willing to teach the “process” engineers at IH the art of tuning the system and was he willing to do so. However after IH not paying the bill, he will not do so anymore.

    • Good points all, LT.

  • DrD

    You know what these rumours imply.
    The rumour is:—- IH say the ERV isn’t trusted (by them).
    There’s no record of them complaining and no attempt to correct the problem (that I know of).
    We all know how intimately they and their own workers were involved so it can’t have come as a last minute surprise and they cannot have failed to realise that another year was passing with no chance of a successful outcome for F9.
    First of all wasn’t this a failure of due diligence?
    In any case, doesn’t it imply they must have attempted to delay the acceptance by yet another year?
    Add this to the earlier very long delays which they were responsible for, what conclusion do you arrive at?
    Then add to this the reports that they were more than happy with the performance, what does that suggest?

    • Stephen

      They also released that legal looking announcement from APCO to not to trust statements not officially endorsed by them. This is quite a tricky twist I think, especially if those unofficial statements, that are obviously trying to modify general opinion, are apparently originating from them… Way too confusing for me I’m afraid but perhaps its just a legal protection thing or inside fighting thing or who knows what. Can speculate for ever I guess its best to just wait for the legal process to work through.

      I hope it resolves soon.

      • cashmemorz

        Apco, if it was them, are making neutral if confusing or maybe meaningless statements. In the end is a sophisticated BS in BS out. Confusing the populace is one way of controlling them into prolonged argument which is the same as inaction

  • DrD

    You know what these rumours imply.
    The rumour is:—- IH say the ERV isn’t trusted (by them).
    There’s no record of them complaining and no attempt to correct the problem (that I know of).
    We all know how intimately they and their own workers were involved so it can’t have come as a last minute surprise and they cannot have failed to realise that another year was passing with no chance of a successful outcome for F9.
    First of all wasn’t this a failure of due diligence?
    Secondly, doesn’t it imply they must have been attempting to delay the acceptance by at least another year?
    Add this to the earlier very long delays which they were responsible for, what conclusion do you arrive at?
    Then add to this the reports that they were more than happy with the performances, what does that suggest?

    • Stephen

      They also released that legal looking announcement from APCO to not to trust statements not officially endorsed by them. This is quite a tricky twist I think, especially if those unofficial statements, that are obviously trying to modify general opinion, are apparently originating from them… Way too confusing for me I’m afraid but perhaps its just a legal protection thing or inside fighting thing or who knows what. Can speculate for ever I guess its best to just wait for the legal process to work through.

      I hope it resolves soon.

      • cashmemorz

        Apco, if it was them, are making neutral if confusing or maybe meaningless statements. In the end is a sophisticated BS in BS out. Confusing the populace is one way of controlling them into prolonged argument which is the same as inaction

  • akupaku

    This could just be disagreement what “work” means to each party. I am sure for IH “work” means a problem free and reliable product that can be marketed and sold as is. It seems to me the 1 MW unit was not at that stage yet because Rossi made hundreds of modifications and fixes on the way and the unit apparently required constant baby sitting. That’s not ready for production, it is maybe an alpha prototype, not even a beta which should be very close to a final product.

    For Rossi “work” probably means the unit produced enough usable heat for the customer and the COP was at least on the average above the required limit (COP>6?).

    We will know more in the future I am sure.

  • Andrew

    Very strange that IH has lawyers and APCO hired yet uses Jed to release statements…….

  • Andrew

    Very strange that IH has lawyers and APCO hired yet uses Jed to release statements…….

    • Steve Swatman

      INternet search engines can be geared to bring people to certain “independent” blogs, “independent” websites, “independent” Independent views, “Independent” summaries, misguided, incorrect, outlandish summaries, conjectures and assumtions, that would in no real way come back to APCO, IH, Cherokee. should the courts investigate. these are afteral just summations from someone not directly connected with APCO< IH or Cherokee.

  • georgehants

    Where are the reports of positive replications of a clear and substantial nature from anywhere, by now they should be coming in from all over the World?
    What results have been obtained by the insane secret Defense Dept. that Rossi “donated” an e-cat to?
    When is Rossi going to stop playing silly little games that every day that passes costs lives?
    When in this distorted Sim are people going to stop worshiping money and power and start caring about others first and not last?
    Most everybody on page talks totally trapped in a system that clearly is crazy.
    Change the bloody system.

    • Michael W Wolf

      george you sound like a broken record.

      • georgehants

        Michael, are you saying the unbelievable repetition on these pages is not a broken record?
        At least my record is not a continuous repetition of the same brain-washed mumbling’s of those unable to think for themselves, just follow the path of authority and don’t rock the boat.
        Leaders in history have always forced people to think like that, mainly horrific dictators.
        One day the church, next day Hitler etc. today an oligarchy and most of the population follow like sheep.
        Sorry that I do not conform, but your not answering my clear points and just trying to insult, is not going to alter anything.

        • Michael W Wolf

          I am talking about your political rants. In bashing the only system that has brought man any prosperity.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Those are good points Bob. If there is no baseline energy bill due to the fact that the company was not in existence before, it’s difficult to extract any meaning from said bill. If however the manufactury exists, then possibly the energy bill exists also. Then the “new” customer is just an administrative setup.

            At this point I do not know what to believe.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            And by the way, “Rossi is an idiot,” Forsley said. And yet: “It’s entirely possible—I think it’s highly improbable—that he actually managed to scale up Piantelli’s work,” Forsley said. “It’s possible.”
            http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/andrea-rossis-black-box

            Did Piantelli have LiAlH4 in his reactor?

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            Apparently Russia originally used pure lithium. Later began to add lithium aluminum hydride as the hydrogen source.

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            Sorry Rossi

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Or is it sorry Piantelli?

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            Piantelli recognized pioneer LENR reactions Ni-H. Why feel sorry for him?
            — реклама ———————————————————– Поторопись зарегистрировать самый короткий почтовый адрес @i.ua http://mail.i.ua/reg – и получи 1Gb для хранения писем

          • Pweet

            I agree. He had a hydrogen bottle connected to the reactor via a tap which he turned off prior to starting the reactor. He explained how little hydrogen was required to charge the reactor with sufficient hydrogen the support the reaction.
            I also remember someone on his JONP recommending using aluminium hydride as a safe source of hydrogen and soon after, the hydrogen bottle disappeared from the scene.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            I was just thinking that Rossi was the first to use LiAlH4
            and that the primary reaction is the following:

            Li(7) + p > Be(8)* > 2 He(4) 17,3 MeV.

            http://news.coinupdate.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ernest-walton-silver-coin.jpg

            The MeV alphas, He(4) from the classical lithium reaction we’ve been talking about could be used to initiate this other well known classical transmutation of aluminum into silicon and a MeV proton.

            Al(27) + He(4) > Si(30) + H(1) 2.3722 MeV

            Then this MeV proton, H(1) could be used to trigger the original lithium,
            Li(7) to helium He(4) reaction.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/03/17/andrea-rampardo-private-ukrainian-lab-replicated-parkhomov-detected-neutrons/comment-page-1/#comment-1912817362

            Therefore, it would be quite different from Piantelli’s
            hydrogen nickel reaction.

    • guitarwebs

      Schrodingers box perhaps?

      • georgehants

        Schrodinger’s box is not appropriate as it is a theory that looks to be correct but still plenty of room for change.
        In Rossi’s case the Evidence, when seen, will be indisputable when checked.
        Pandora’s Box contains all the Evils that we are witnessing today and all that is left in the end is HOPE.
        If anybody would like to justify that situation beyond parroting that “that is the way things are” without demanding change, then fine.

        • Obvious

          It is a good idea to keep in mind that the Schrodingers’s cat thought experiment was first devised to demonstrate how absurd the idea of a superposition of states is. Einstien’s comment that God does not play dice also sprang from his conversations with Schrodinger. Both had a deep dislike of the idea of describing Nature with statistics when it came to narrowing systems down to the details of specific events.

          • cashmemorz

            Superposition of states has been demonstrated by bullet proof physical experiments. You talk as if this was “just a theory” or “just a hypothesis”. It has been shown in multiple ways to be not only workable in theory but in applications.

          • Obvious

            I have suggested nothing of the sort. I merely noted that in the original context, the cat in the box scenario was originally intended as a reductio ad absurdum argument. As it turns out, the Universe may be absurd to our Eathly sensibilities.
            The bifurcation multiverse theory sucks, because it requires the instantaneous creation of the energy of an entire universe to construct, infinitely. Which is more absurd than probably the even this Universe can handle.

          • cashmemorz

            Just because we and our resources seem puny by comparison does not mean that the universe cannot handle certain things. Its like some people thought that you shouldn’t push the gas pedal too hard because the car will get tired too fast and break down. Its called anthropomorphising or comparing inanimate things to human or animate entities. Its a form of egoism to think that way. Who say there cannot be other universes created at every instance. Sure its hard to comprehend but so what?

          • Obvious

            The only thing the bifurcation multiverse solves is thinking, in my opinion.

            Put a brick on your gas pedal in the driveway, running in neutral, and test your theory. Just don’t go crying to me when it gets tired early and breaks.

          • cashmemorz

            There is no way currently to prove or disprove the multiverse hypotheses. If its real we can’t do anything about it. If not real and its just an interpretation than that is how our minds work.

          • Obvious

            If you cannot test it, how does the suggestion help? It is not even a theory. It is just an unsupported statement. A sciencey version of invoking God as an explanation.
            Invoking God as an explanation is actually simpler.

          • cashmemorz

            But our mind is all we gots. Duh.

          • Obvious

            A muliverse of infinitely multiplying indecisive minds? None of them with the same ideas…

          • georgehants

            Obvious, thank you, of course I have in mind what you have written that adds information to my point, but I am afraid I do not quite understand your point as you have not made a connection with mine.

          • Obvious

            I was simply adding that the cat in the box idea was not originally intended as a demonstration of superposition, but as an argument against it. As it turns out, it now has a life as the opposite of the original intent.

          • georgehants

            Obvious, many thanks, yes I agree, in the end nobody knows hardly anything and we have to be ready to change our thinking in an instant.
            My old chestnut of keep an open-mind seems to cover it.
            What do you think of my use of Pandora’s Box in this crazy situation, ha.

          • Obvious

            I always wondered why hope stayed in the box.
            Perhaps hope requires effort, while evil can be as simple as standing idly by.

    • bachcole

      “Change the bloody system” is similar to perpetual motion machines.

      • georgehants

        Roger, just maybe a “perpetual motion machine” is a reality and in the future people will wonder how we ever thought them impossible.
        The whole Universe is a perpetual motion machine that no part of science has the slightest explanation for where all the Energy that keeps it running came from, just crazy Dogmatic ,religious beliefs about it.

    • Michael W Wolf

      hehe, well at least my repetition is on topic. I can’t help it people keep saying things that don’t fit the facts. I will continue to remind them. To your dismay, I’m sure.

  • georgehants

    Where are the reports of positive replications of a clear and substantial nature from anywhere, by now they should be coming in from all over the World?
    What results have been obtained by the insane secret Defense Dept. that Rossi “donated” an e-cat to?
    When is Rossi going to stop playing silly little games that every day that passes costs lives?
    When in this distorted Sim are people going to stop worshiping money and power and start caring about others first and not last?
    Most everybody on page talks totally trapped in a system that clearly is crazy.
    Change the bloody system, demand that the government move in and within one month, report (honestly) if Rossi’s Pandorers Box is full or empty.

    • Michael W Wolf

      george you sound like a broken record.

      • georgehants

        Michael, are you saying the unbelievable repetition on these pages is not a broken record?
        At least my record is not a continuous repetition of the same brain-washed mumbling’s of those unable to think for themselves, just follow the path of authority and don’t rock the boat.
        Leaders in history have always forced people to think like that, mainly horrific dictators.
        One day the church, next day Hitler etc. today an oligarchy and most of the population follow like sheep.
        Many people died at the hands of these people for thinking outside of dictated parameters, no different today.
        Sorry that I do not conform, but your not answering my clear points and just trying to insult, is not going to alter anything.

        • Jas

          Dont worry George, there are other lefty types on here too.
          I come fron a background of activism and anarchism.
          I dont discuss my politics here though. I just observe and make the odd comment or joke. I feel the same way about the world as you do but this should not be a left wing vs right wing debate. This is about a device that will change the world so lets all keep this civil if we can. We are all in this together.

          • georgehants

            Jas, many thanks but to me it is not a matter of left right, up, down,in out, but only what would be the best for “all” people.

        • Michael W Wolf

          I am talking about your political rants. In bashing the only system that has brought man any prosperity.

    • guitarwebs

      Schrodingers box perhaps?

      • georgehants

        Schrodinger’s box is not appropriate as it is a theory that looks to be correct but still plenty of room for change.
        In Rossi’s case the Evidence, when seen, will be indisputable when checked.
        Pandora’s Box contains all the Evils that we are witnessing today and all that is left in the Box in the end is HOPE.
        If anybody would like to justify that situation beyond parroting that “that is the way things are” without demanding change, then fine.

        • Obvious

          It is a good idea to keep in mind that the Schrodingers’s cat thought experiment was first devised to demonstrate how absurd the idea of a superposition of states is. Einstien’s comment that God does not play dice also sprang from his conversations with Schrodinger. Both had a deep dislike of the idea of describing Nature with statistics when it came to narrowing systems down to the details of specific events.

          • cashmemorz

            Superposition of states has been demonstrated by bullet proof physical experiments. You talk as if this was “just a theory” or “just a hypothesis”. It has been shown in multiple ways to be not only workable in theory but in applications. What is most confusing from the implications of superposition is that it immediately requires an explanation to those who are not able to consolidate it with our everyday experiences where everything seems to happen as distinct separate phenomena. Then it also seems to lead to the explanation of its workings by the many worlds bifurcation interpretation that is difficult to accept because of our everyday way of understanding of how things seem to work.

          • Obvious

            I have suggested nothing of the sort. I merely noted that in the original context, the cat in the box scenario was originally intended as a reductio ad absurdum argument. As it turns out, the Universe may be absurd to our Eathly sensibilities.
            The bifurcation multiverse theory sucks, because it requires the instantaneous creation of the energy of an entire ordered universe to construct, infinitely. Which is more absurd than probably the even this Universe can handle.

          • cashmemorz

            Just because we and our resources seem puny by comparison does not mean that the universe cannot handle certain things. Its like some people thought that you shouldn’t push the gas pedal too hard because the car will get tired too fast and break down. Its called anthropomorphising or comparing inanimate things to human or animate entities. Its a form of egoism to think that way. Who say there cannot be other universes created at every instance. Sure its hard to comprehend but so what?

          • Obvious

            The only thing the bifurcation multiverse solves is thinking, in my opinion.

            Put a brick on your gas pedal in the driveway, running in neutral, and test your theory. Just don’t go crying to me when it gets tired early and breaks.

          • cashmemorz

            There is no way currently to prove or disprove the multiverse hypotheses. If its real we can’t do anything about it. If not real and its just an interpretation than that is how our minds work.

          • Obvious

            If you cannot test it, how does the suggestion help? It is not even a theory. It is just an unsupported statement. A sciencey version of invoking God as an explanation.
            Invoking God as an explanation is actually simpler.

          • cashmemorz

            But our mind is all we gots. Duh.

          • Obvious

            A multiverse of infinitely multiplying indecisive minds? None of them with the same ideas…

          • bachcole

            Many things exist that science is not equipped to prove or disprove. Some times it is money that stands in the way of science being able to prove or disprove something. Science is extremely good a proving material things. After that, it is not so good and eventually falls off into useless.

          • Obvious

            Science is not science if there is nothing to test.
            Certainly there is much “not science” that can still be real.

          • georgehants

            Obvious, thank you, of course I have in mind what you have written that adds information to my point, but I am afraid I do not quite understand your point as you have not made a connection with mine.

          • Obvious

            I was simply adding that the cat in the box idea was not originally intended as a demonstration of superposition, but as an argument against it. As it turns out, it now has a life as the opposite of the original intent.

          • georgehants

            Obvious, many thanks, yes I agree, in the end nobody knows hardly anything and we have to be ready to change our thinking in an instant.
            My old chestnut of keep an open-mind seems to cover it.
            What do you think of my use of Pandora’s Box in this crazy situation, ha.

          • Obvious

            I always wondered why hope stayed in the box.
            Perhaps hope requires effort, while evil can be as simple as standing idly by.

    • bachcole

      “Change the bloody system” is similar to perpetual motion machines.

      • georgehants

        Roger, just maybe a “perpetual motion machine” is a reality and in the future people will wonder how we ever thought them impossible.
        The whole Universe is a perpetual motion machine that no part of science has the slightest explanation for where all the Energy that keeps it running came from, just crazy Dogmatic, scientific religious beliefs about it.

        • bachcole

          You should start making energy/money with a perpetual motion machine since you claim that it is real. You could use the money to give away to poor people. Of course, the poor people that you gift with your perpetual motion machine earnings would come to realize that they did not have to work and would just live off of your charity. Wouldn’t that be nice? They could sit around smoking dope and signing your gift checks. That would be very uplifting for them.

          • georgehants

            Roger, as usual you may like to re-read my comment, at no time do I claim that “a perpetual motion machine” is a Fact, only that they may be possible and regarding the Universe, that is certainly an open question.
            The rest of your comment assumes that there are not millions of people on this Earth willing to help others with no return at all except satisfaction.
            You may concentrate on them rather than worry about the few who would add nothing to society.

          • cashmemorz

            A device that produces free or almost free energy will for the near future be looked at with awe if it ever hits the market. In the near term some people will certainly get lazy and feel like they deserve it for making life very easy. When everyone gets used to it, a generation or two, then it might be treated like we treat current power. We do tend to stretch its use as much as possible. We have the utopian dream build into our psyche. Some of us lose sleep over how much we can crowd into our lives to make our lives meaningful(in the context of this utopian goal)

          • georgehants

            cashmemorz, Amen to that

    • Look at the bright side, at least Rosemary Ainslie has been ‘dis-proven’ (mistakes in measurement/measurement setup, improper or inappropriate choice of instrumentation leading to mistaken conclusions for instance). Is there not yet hope to ferret out bad measurement and erroneous conclusions in the larger scheme of things, on either side?

    • Michael W Wolf

      hehe, well at least my repetition is on topic. I can’t help it people keep saying things that don’t fit the facts. I will continue to remind them. To your dismay, I’m sure.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I could imagine associating some kind of losing of marbles to the person who is named in the title of the page, while I have a hard time associating it with AR. Just basing this on the consistency/inconsistency of their writings in the last month or so.

  • Zapece

    Penon may have been acceptable from IH’s perspective because his previous measurement methods were suspect they could cast aspersions on the ERV leading to the current situation while obtaining the IP and the verification.

  • Ingo Heinscher

    Okay, this may be just a stupid idea, and frankly I don’t believe this to be all that plausible myself. But I like it, so I’ll post it.

    IH: “Allright, it’s working. How do we market it?”
    AR: “Well, we make a product and sell it.”
    IH: “Won’t work. Nobody will believe that it works. And then, no sales, no impact, no profit.”
    AR: “But we can show it does in fact work.”
    IH: “Yes, but nobody will listen.”
    AR: “Then let us do another report by scientists.”
    IH: “They will just say the scientists have been bought to say what we want.”
    AR: “So we need to make sure they are neutral.”
    IH: “Exactly. How about we… make a lawsuit about it, which then determines if it works or not?”
    AR: “A lawsuit would possibly be more credible. But who to sue?”
    IH: “Us.”

    • Brokeeper

      Except:
      Andrea Rossi
      September 24th, 2015 at 7:49 AM

      … “Anyway, the time scheduling for the
      deliveries of the 1 MW plants, for which Leonardo Corp has already
      an enormous portfolio of pre-orders in the whole world,”…

      • Bob

        Lets see when some start shipping! Pre-orders mean nothing.
        .
        As Rossi has stated, that will be proof.
        .
        If none ever ship, that will be just as much proof for the negative.

      • Steve Swatman

        I am pretty sure that some Ecats would go to the wrong people, and they be made to blowup, kill people, injure people, very quickly.

        They would be then required to take extensive retesting and be banned from been sold very quickly.

        • cashmemorz

          So AR can screen customers for only legitimate use and no modifications without AR intervention. Also design such as interlock or slow melt down to prevent unauthorized modification or even inability to open without safe self destruct.

      • wpj

        When he said that they wanted to destroy any competition, little did we know it was IH that he was referring to! I also noticed a while ago that said Leonardo was going to manufacture rather than licence, which again might have been the IH get out.

    • Steve Swatman

      So You were a fly on the wall 😉 I would not be at all surprised if that conversation happened.

    • Angry SQUIRREL!!

      You might be on to something possibly. As Trump has proved to us all, controversy = free publicity. Free publicity = free advertising. Free advertising = Profit

    • pg

      They must have watched Ocean’s 12 before that meeting…

    • Like a player kicking up dust on an umpire; no real harm, no real foul BUT lots of press …

      I would rather have thought that with the name “Industrial Heat” IH and partners could have leased equipment (like IBM did for decades with their big old legacy computer Iron) to produce cheap heat for industrial processes vs direct sales of equipment; there are not too many plant managers who do NOT want to save money on fuel (heating) bills!

      Many businesses could also deduct the cost of IH services vs simple depreciation cost of equipment costs too. Then there are real property taxes too.

    • cashmemorz

      Laughable, true, but then reality can be stranger than fiction…

    • LookMoo

      Besides being slow, the legal system usually under-performs and is costly.

      The paper trail points in another direction. IH believe in LENR all right but does not want to deal with Rossi nor spend another hundred millions of dollars to get what they already have (the IP).

      Such action is not uncommon when one party believes he could have a better deal.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Sounds like a big fat conflict of interest. Unbelievable. Rossi should
    have sued for breach after IH failed to find the test facility. If Rossi
    was a fraud, this would have been a perfect iron clad opportunity to
    get the 89 million and not have to test the 1mw reactor. But what did Rossi do? He LET them off the hook for the breach and found a site to imprison himself in. This is the smoking gun for Rossi supporters. Rossi has a new energy reactor and IH are scumbags of the highest order I am afraid. They NEVER intended to give Rossi the 89 million.

    • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

      I would be so happy to see an announcement from HydroFusion starting a new plan at Europe.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Sounds like a big fat conflict of interest. Unbelievable. Rossi should
    have sued for breach after IH failed to find the test facility. If Rossi
    was a fraud, this would have been a perfect iron clad opportunity to
    get the 89 million and not have to test the 1mw reactor. But what did Rossi do? He LET them off the hook for the breach and found a site to imprison himself in. This is the smoking gun for Rossi supporters. Rossi has a new energy reactor and IH are scumbags of the highest order I am afraid. They NEVER intended to give Rossi the 89 million.

    • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

      I would be so happy to see an announcement from HydroFusion starting a new plan at Europe.

  • guest10

    I somewhat surprised that Rossi still is supported by so many. Everything point to same conclusion: Rossi has been able to create a circus from from what likely is some ” physical phenomena”, but a phenomena that is far from what Rossi state. After som many years, so many statements and still nothing is proved without doubtful tests and strange relations between people and companies actually say rather much. Anyone having what Rossi says he has should by simple means be able to have an independent receipt, if wanted. And then no need to worry about money. So, although I been following the LENR story and actually had some hopes before, I find it impossible to put any attention to what Rossi says. At some point it should be enough also for an illusionist as Rossi

    • Andrew

      By what your saying is that Penon is in on the scam. Ask yourself if you were trying to scam someone would you not have made a more believable COP? Somewhere around the required 6, Instead of a ridiculous 50? Something about this whole thing just sounds strange. I’m still in the arena that this whole thing is a media stunt designed by APCO.

      • Andrew

        Seriously! What better way to bring cold fusion into the limelight?

        1) create fake row between inventor and investor
        2) court trial deems device works
        3) media goes nuts
        4) inventor and investors repair relationship

        • At least there is some hope in that … And it will work in the movie … Brilliant twist!

        • kenko1

          Sounds like a plan! Best reason I’ve seen so far for all these shenanigans. Let the gov’mnt, in a non-technical court, validate that the device works as claimed. No nuclear or perpetual motion butresses to overcome. Only that it works as claimed. I smell a public demo in a U.S. federal court a comin in the near future.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Yes, but such court cases like this tend to take 5-10 years, and often drag on even longer.
            R
            Albert

          • cashmemorz

            And if the powers that want LENR put down, influence the court experts report, then what? More delays…

      • Or maybe : “By what you are saying …

        “Your saying” means it is his saying, like “all is well that ends well” or “It takes two.” versus what he is saying on a particular subject.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Penon on the scam?
        Doubtful. As Rossi stated, he put instruments up beside Penon, and received the same result. This is likely a true statement!

        The question is not that Penon measured, the question then becomes what other power sources are going into that plant. We have ZERO knowledge of the factory and “how” independent the setting and setup is.

        Until we have the above information, then any “test” of power without knowing the parties involved in paying for that power, who installed the plant in the factory, and if the factory really has any independence from Rossi etc. are known, then the results of the ERV has
        little weight.
        And yes, a more believe COP say in the 15 range likely would have been better. I don’t believe Penon is misleading anyone by intention. So the numbers Penon sees are what he sees, but the issue is setup of the plant, who’s using the energy etc. needs to be known to determine if the ERV report is of any value.

        If they have a COP of 50, then IH would hand over the 90 million, do a press conference and have 500 million dollars worth of investment by noon tomorrow.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • timycelyn

      Well, that is your opinion.

      For what it is worth……

    • Steve Savage

      Perfect … You don’t want to pay anymore attention to what Rossi says… Excellent … Bye ! Adios…

  • guest10

    I somewhat surprised that Rossi still is supported by so many. Everything point to same conclusion: Rossi has been able to create a circus from from what likely is some ” physical phenomena”, but a phenomena that is far from what Rossi state. After som many years, so many statements and still nothing is proved without doubtful tests and strange relations between people and companies actually say rather much. Anyone having what Rossi says he has should by simple means be able to have an independent receipt, if wanted. And then no need to worry about money. So, although I been following the LENR story and actually had some hopes before, I find it impossible to put any attention to what Rossi says. At some point it should be enough also for an illusionist as Rossi

    • Andrew

      By what your saying is that Penon is in on the scam. Ask yourself if you were trying to scam someone would you not have made a more believable COP? Somewhere around the required 6, Instead of a ridiculous 50? Something about this whole thing just sounds strange. I’m still in the arena that this whole thing is a media stunt designed by APCO.

      • Andrew

        Seriously! What better way to bring cold fusion into the limelight?

        1) create fake row between inventor and investor
        2) court trial deems device works
        3) media goes nuts
        4) inventor and investors repair relationship

        • At least there is some hope in that … And it will work in the movie … Brilliant twist!

        • bachcole

          I like 3. With 3, it actually makes sense, but is very speculative.

        • kenko1

          Sounds like a plan! Best reason I’ve seen so far for all these shenanigans. Let the gov’mnt, in a non-technical court, validate that the device works as claimed. No nuclear or perpetual motion butresses to overcome. Only that it works as claimed. I smell a public demo in a U.S. federal court a comin in the near future.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Yes, but such court cases like this tend to take 5-10 years, and often drag on even longer.
            R
            Albert

          • cashmemorz

            And if the powers that want LENR put down, influence the court experts report, then what? More delays…

      • Or maybe : “By what you are saying …

        “Your saying” means it is his saying, like “all is well that ends well” or “It takes two.” versus what he is saying on a particular subject. This can have a confusing impact on non-English readers.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Penon on the scam?
        Doubtful. As Rossi stated, he put instruments up beside Penon, and received the same result. This is likely a true statement!

        The question is not that Penon measured, the question then becomes what other power sources are going into that plant. We have ZERO knowledge of the factory and “how” independent the setting and setup is.

        Until we have the above information, then any “test” of power without knowing the parties involved in paying for that power, who installed the plant in the factory, and if the factory really has any independence from Rossi etc. are known, then the results of the ERV has
        little weight.
        And yes, a more believe COP say in the 15 range likely would have been better. I don’t believe Penon is misleading anyone by intention. So the numbers Penon sees are what he sees, but the issue is setup of the plant, who’s using the energy etc. needs to be known to determine if the ERV report is of any value.

        If they have a COP of 50, then IH would hand over the 90 million, do a press conference and have 500 million dollars worth of investment by noon tomorrow.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • timycelyn

      Well, that is your opinion.

      For what it is worth……

    • Steve Savage

      Perfect … You don’t want to pay anymore attention to what Rossi says… Excellent … Bye ! Adios…

      • Steve Swatman

        Excellent comment and succinct.

    • Gunnar Lindberg

      guest10, I suggest you stay here for entertainment.

  • watch

    All of this is not suprising.

  • watch

    All of this is not suprising.

  • timycelyn

    We seem to be getting an invasion of schills. This is getting a tiny bit tedious..

    • wpj

      I accidentally got redirected to ECN; with the vitriol there towards this site, AR, MFMP I’m sure that it is populated by the spawn of MY, GW and freeenergyscams.

      At least the people here actually discuss rather than go in for the kill with each announcement.

      • timycelyn

        That place can seriously damage your sanity! When they drivel on, you can sense the staring eyes, the flying spittle, the wild gestures.

        I’m sure that if one was in a room with one of more of them the natural reaction would be to speak slowly and calmingly “Yes…..yes, good…goood…” whilst inching backwards towards the door.

        I’m afraid the worst condemnation I have for some schill who has irritated me beyond human endurance is to suggest he relocates to that group where he will find kindred spirits…

    • g

      Yeah. Happens automatically. I’ve heard it is some kind of algorithm

    • Steve Swatman

      One has to take the appearance of so many shills as a positive, if there was nothing to fear there would be no reason for the shills to be out in such force.t

      They have had a year to create accounts, to ready themselves for the attacks, to work out their arguments and copy paste the last decade of shill type commentary.

      To me, every shill comment adds credence to LENR and Rossi’s work and his effort and stoicism in the face of an over abundance of corporate maleficence.

    • Bruce__H

      What is an example?

      • timycelyn

        Guest 10 below

        • Bruce__H

          What is a schill?

          • timycelyn

            Spelling 2/10 must try harder…..

            Shill – sorry!

            “A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization. Shills can carry out their operations in the areas of media, journalism, marketing or other business areas.”

          • Bruce__H

            OK.

            How do you distinguish between a shill and someone who simply disagrees with you?

  • Brokeeper

    Except:
    Andrea Rossi
    September 24th, 2015 at 7:49 AM

    … “Anyway, the time scheduling for the
    deliveries of the 1 MW plants, for which Leonardo Corp has already
    an enormous portfolio of pre-orders in the whole world,”…

    • Bob

      Lets see when some start shipping! Pre-orders mean nothing.
      .
      As Rossi has stated, that will be proof.
      .
      If none ever ship, that will be just as much proof for the negative.

    • wpj

      When he said that they wanted to destroy any competition, little did we know it was IH that he was referring to! I also noticed a while ago that said Leonardo was going to manufacture rather than licence, which again might have been the IH get out.

  • Engineer48

    Interesting list of pending Leonardo patents is attached.

  • Engineer48

    Interesting list of pending Leonardo patents is attached.

  • blanco69

    I agree, a COP of 50 would not be difficult to confirm …. or deny. No F9 required. My concern now is that in order to wiggle out of their contractual obligations, IH dont believe a COP of 50, but but are happy with a COP of, say, 30. For us it’s still a great result but for IH it’s a saving of $89M.

    • Engineer48

      Contract says COP >= 6 requires full payment. Prorated payment between < 6 to 1. Only way IH can pay zero is if COP = 1 or less.

  • Engineer48

    Here is the agreed ECat Validation Protocol that was used for the 1st test & which resulted in IH paying Leonardo $10m.

  • Engineer48

    Here is the agreed ECat Validation Protocol that was used for the 1st test & which resulted in IH paying Leonardo $10m.

  • Engineer48

    Here the contract makes it clear it is the ERV’s report that triggers or not the payment of the $10m.

  • Engineer48

    Payment terms for the $89m

  • Engineer48

    Payment terms for the $89m

  • JDM

    Jed has been making a fuss about how anyone in the building would be cooked by that much heat but as it was a chemical manufacturer, perhaps the product required a very endothermic process to make.

    • kdk

      Right, I thought that it being in some dry cleaners or something was speculation. Couldn’t the heat be vented outside anyway? Not that it would be peculiar for horrible working conditions by employers for employees.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I think JR’s question is legitimate. It is certainly of interest how they could handle such a huge amount of steam.

      • wpj

        It’s a closed system; look at the plant lay out and you will see the return for the condensed water which will be reheated to save on energy. This is what makes the calculations of energy more difficult than straight calorimetry.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          That’s true. So read “amount of heat” instead.

          • wpj

            I worked in a multi-purpose chemical plant north of Barcelona (about 15 reactors in there with heating up to 180C). I really never noticed the heat as the reactors are so well thermally clad; they have to be to save on the heating costs.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Look at this steam-heated reactor, which requires 16 kW electric input:

            http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/steam-heating-double-jacketed-chemical-reactor_1242854249.html

            Now imagine a plant that consumes 1 MW…

          • wpj

            Well, my electric shower at home is 10kW, so I have my doubts in that one.

            That kW is for the motor that is required to stir?

          • cashmemorz

            The shower has to deliver almost immediate hot water ~100 fahrenheit/40Celsius, by inputting as much power(10KW) into you water piping as your wiring can allow This is because you don’t want to wait as long as a commercial application can wait to start showering. With double walled casing plus insulation(thick/efficient material) the 1kW plant per their specs doesn’t have to build up heat as fast (to consume nominal energy with eventual high out put of heat) the commercial unit is able to do the job.

          • wpj

            It was intended as a bit of a joke………..

            When working on a pilot scale reactor on the plant (25 litres capacity) the unit we used for heating and cooling was a 30kW 3 phase unit (Julabo) so I just don’t see how that 1500 litre reactor can use a 16kW input.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Well, to produce 1.5 m^3 steam (100C, 1 bar abs) from 0.89 kg water (starting at 20C) you would need only 0.63 kWh. But I agree that you may be correct with your hypothesis.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            It could well be for the stirrer. You need 720 kWh to heat up and evaporate 1 m^3 water, starting from 20C. That would give a huge steam volume, however.

        • Andrew

          Rossi doesn’t need an export licence if he sells them in the US. The customer would then need an export licence. Round and round we go.

      • US_Citizen71

        If it was a laundry for example it would go down the drain with the hot water used in washing and vented to outside through the hot air used in the dryers. That took me all of 30 seconds to come up with, I’m sure there is a plethora of other possibilities.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        As this episode fades into the background, we could learn what forces are behind IH. Rossi is going to plow ahead to manufacture, we will see what other impediments will be thrown into his path, where they come from, and how crafty, legally and otherwise these dirty tricks will be.

    • Josh G

      Can somebody remind me how we know that the test and the factory were located there? We know that is the address of JM Chemicals (or whatever the name is), but do we really know that was the test site? Isn’t it just speculation on our part?

  • Engineer48

    Procedures for Validation of ECat IP

    • US_Citizen71

      So the fuel is/was not part of the agreement interesting. I missed that.

      • wpj

        Yes it is- 2 last paragraphs

        • US_Citizen71

          Ooops my bad!

          • wpj

            Interestingly, though, it does say that IH will be taught everything in order for them (IH) to make the 1MW plant (I think- wording is a bit strange).

      • Engineer48

        Read last 2 paragraphs.

  • JDM

    Jed has been making a fuss about how anyone in the building would be cooked by that much heat but as it was a chemical manufacturer, perhaps the product required a very endothermic process to make.

    • kdk

      Couldn’t the heat be vented outside anyway, or air conditioning being run too? Not that it would be peculiar for horrible working conditions by employers for employees.

      • Engineer48

        Assuming 30% of the 1MWt was endothermically embodied into the manufactured product, 20% radiated into the work space (needing workspace cooling of 200kWt), then 50% (500kWt) would need to be vented.

        Not a big ask for a HVAC engineer.

        PS: Embodied heat % of the manufactured product could be much higher than 30%.

        • wpj

          If it was a reactor system these are heavily lagged to prevent heat loss as this is the major part of the production cost; very little is lost. The hot waste steam go back to be reheated. It’s in the picture of the plant!

        • JDM

          An evaporative cooling tower of about 150 tons would take care of that and that is not a big unit. 8 ft. Dia. x 15 ft. H.

    • Engineer48

      Not a biggie to cool the manufacturing operation.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I think JR’s question is legitimate. It is certainly of interest how they could handle such a huge amount of steam.

      • wpj

        It’s a closed system; look at the plant lay out and you will see the return for the condensed water which will be reheated to save on energy. This is what makes the calculations of energy more difficult than straight calorimetry.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          That’s true. So read “amount of heat” instead.

          • wpj

            I worked in a multi-purpose chemical plant north of Barcelona (about 15 reactors in there with heating up to 180C). I really never noticed the heat as the reactors are so well thermally clad; they have to be to save on the heating costs.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Look at this steam-heated reactor, which requires 16 kW electric input:

            http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/steam-heating-double-jacketed-chemical-reactor_1242854249.html

            Now imagine a plant that consumes 1 MW…

          • wpj

            Well, my electric shower at home is 10kW, so I have my doubts in that one.

            That kW is for the motor that is required to stir?

          • cashmemorz

            The shower has to deliver almost immediate hot water ~100 fahrenheit/40Celsius, by inputting as much power(10KW) into you water piping as your wiring can allow This is because you don’t want to wait as long as a commercial application can wait to start showering. With double walled casing plus insulation(thick/efficient material) the 1kW plant per their specs doesn’t have to build up heat as fast (to consume nominal energy with eventual high out put of heat) the commercial unit is able to do the job.

          • wpj

            It was intended as a bit of a joke………..

            When working on a pilot scale reactor on the plant (25 litres capacity) the unit we used for heating and cooling was a 30kW 3 phase unit (Julabo) so I just don’t see how that 1500 litre reactor can use a 16kW input.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Well, to produce 1.5 m^3 steam (100C, 1 bar abs) from 0.89 kg water (starting at 20C) you would need only 0.63 kWh. But I agree that you may be correct with your hypothesis.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            It could well be for the stirrer. You need 720 kWh to heat up and evaporate 1 m^3 water, starting from 20C. That would give a huge steam volume, however.

          • Mike

            and here is a German steam boiler from the well known company Viessmann
            http://www.viessmann.de/de/industrie/dampferzeuger/hochdruck-dampfkessel/vitomax-100-hs-m33a.html (In German)
            The size of a 1 MW boiler is 2.8×1.8×2.1m (length x width x height)

          • Andreas Moraitis

            The question is not what volume you use to produce steam, but to process it. Obviously, the required input of the reactor in the link above is unknown. (The electric input is most likely used for stirring, as wpj wrote.)

        • Engineer48

          Contract says delta of heat output – heat input was used to calc thermal output. Not just output.

          • wpj

            That was the 24h test, not the 1 year test.

          • Engineer48

            Contract says the 1 year test was based on the 1st protocol with a mod or 2. As an engineer, I know there are not a lot of options to do the required measurements.

            With an averaged input of 20kW of electricity and 1,000kWs of thermal output, doing these measurements is not rocket science nor is it hard.

            To be clear here, the contract requires full payment of $89m for a COP >= 6 & prorated down to $0 at COP 1 or less.

            Are you suggesting the ERV measured a COP > 50, while IH measured a COP of 1 or less?

          • wpj

            Not me, guv!

          • DrD

            Actually it was pro rated down to zero at cop =2.(6?) I think.

          • Engineer48

            Yes you are correct. Full payment at COP >= 6.0 + min 100 C steam and $0 at < = 2.6. Prorated in between.

      • US_Citizen71

        If it was a laundry for example it would go down the drain with the hot water used in washing and vented to outside through the hot air used in the dryers. That took me all of 30 seconds to come up with, I’m sure there is a plethora of other possibilities.

      • g

        By running air coolers maybe?

    • Josh G

      Can somebody remind me how we know that the test and the factory were located there? We know that is the address of JM Chemicals (or whatever the name is), but do we really know that was the test site? Isn’t it just speculation on our part?

  • Engineer48

    JM compliance with OFAC

  • David

    Maybe the lawsuit is a publicity stunt. What better way to promote the product than to have a court confirm that the ECAT works?

    • Jonnyb

      Yeh that had kind of crossed my mind. Also Woodford Shares seem to be on the up, why if I.H. are naff. Somehow don’t think Rossi would do this to us?

  • David

    Maybe the lawsuit is a publicity stunt. What better way to promote the product than to have a court confirm that the ECAT works?

    • Jonnyb

      Yeh that had kind of crossed my mind. Also Woodford Shares seem to be on the up, why if I.H. are naff. Somehow don’t think Rossi would do this to us?

  • US_Citizen71

    So the fuel is/was not part of the agreement interesting. I missed that.

    • wpj

      Yes it is- 2 last paragraphs

      • US_Citizen71

        Ooops my bad!

        • wpj

          Interestingly, though, it does say that IH will be taught everything in order for them (IH) to make the 1MW plant (I think- wording is a bit strange).

  • akupaku

    What a hotbed of gossip, speculation and ranting these latest news have caused. Rossi’s and LENR’s [notorious] fame is growing by the hour. But sadly honor, respectability and esteem are suffering big time.

    I encourage everybody to read Martin Tornberg’s comments on Mats Lewan’s blog at https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/#comments. To me they represent the most plausible, impartial, cool headed, known fact based and non sensationalist view on this matter so far. And very close to my own opinion until something else is proved but Martin expresses his views much more eloquently and well argued than I ever could.

    • bfast

      Thanks, akupaku. I checked out the dialog at impossible, and found Martin Thornberg to be very eloquent, thoughtful, logical.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Yes, Martin Tornberg’s writings sound very sensible.

  • Engineer48

    Why has no one searched for new 1MW boiler registration around the start date and known locations. Can’t be many such registrations.

  • wpj

    If it was a reactor system these are heavily lagged to prevent heat loss as this is the major part of the production cost; very little is lost. The hot waste steam go back to be reheated. It’s in the picture of the plant!

  • roseland67

    If the Ecat somehow DID WORK as intended,
    and IH then owed Rossi $$$$$$ x $$$$$ then I would anticipate IH would put in the 4 corner stall and pray for a rain out, anything to delay the agreed to payout.
    Mercy, I hope this goes to court

    • Engineer48

      Rossi’s claim lays it out that Cherokee has the ultimate obligation to pay the $89m, even if IH can’t or Woodward withdraws their $50m.

      Will be very interesting to read the other 18 documents that will be presented in court.

      Having been involved in several industrial contract disputes, my take is Rossi has laid out a very tough nut for IH to crack.

      Unless IH can show they have made notice to Rossi before the end of the test about their supposed concerns, which is their right under the contract, to do so after the contract test is completed may not go down well with the jury, especially as they negotiated the test protocol, jointly appointed the ERV & agreed his report triggered the payment.

    • Dave

      If the E-Cat did work as intended, IH would be fools not to pay Rossi his $89 million. The E-Cat technology, if it works, is worth many, many BILLIONS. $89 million is nothing.

  • Warthog

    George just can’t help himself. I tried the same thing months ago…..asked him to can the politics and stick to the science. No effect. He should have been banned long ago, as he is as bad as Mary Yugo…just on a different subject.

  • Jerry Soloman
  • wpj

    That was the 24h test, not the 1 year test.

  • Good points all, LT.

  • Brent Buckner
  • bfast

    Thanks, akupaku. I checked out the dialog at impossible, and found Martin Thornberg to be very eloquent, thoughtful, logical.

  • Frank Acland

    I’m trying to follow Jed Rothwell’s argument. The reason to focus on him is that he’s the only person who has publicly identified themselves as hearing from IH on the topic of the ERV report.

    He has stated: “I am confident that the only reason Rossi has not published the Penon report is because it makes him look foolish. It destroys his credibility. I hope that someday the report is published.” https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109320.html

    He has also stated that IH don’t believe the report which says the gadget works.

    “Yes, the ERV report said the gadget works. That is what the lawsuit papers say. I.H. disagrees with ERV report.” https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109316.html

    He has also said:

    “As I said, only a lunatic would enforce a contract that gives Penon the sole decision making power, with no appeal to technical accuracy or common sense. As I said, he could write a report saying only:

    ‘”I hereby certify that this reactor produces anomalous heat with a COP exceeding 6. Please remit $89 million.”‘

    “Do you think a court would enforce that?”

    “The Penon report is way more likely to be flawed. The guy is a certified idiot.” https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109321.html

    So putting all these statements together, the conclusion I come to is that Rothwell thinks Rossi is not publishing the report, not because of the results contained in it (IH has apparently told Rothwell that the report states that the plant works) — but because of the incompetence and idiocy of Fabio Penon.

    • Barbierir

      Brian Ahern wrote similar or worse informations he heard from IH. Meanwhile neither side is releasing the report. We have a lot of pieces of this puzzle that don’t fit the whole picture.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks — is what he wrote publicly posted?

        • Barbierir

          It was on Sifferkol blog: http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/the-rossi-vs-darden-lenr-ecat-battle-not-about-ip-and-money-all-about-freedom-vs-control/#comment-24640 of course it’s not confirmed it’s him but it fits with his previous attitude towards Rossi

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks very much. I had forgotten the statement. Brian Ahern stated “I communicated with IH. They were never allowed to measure the operation of the MW ECAT. They were not certain that it ever operated at fullpower. Their own attempts at replication always produced no excess energy. Rossi never shared the contents of his system and refused to provide any materials.”

            He says they were never allowed to measure the operation of the plant . Jed Rothwell says there were separate measurements taken that disagreed with the ERV. Can those statements be reconciled?

          • SG

            No, they cannot be reconciled. IH appears to be sowing confusion.

          • cashmemorz

            This points to possibility of on purpose publication via court proceedings.

          • wpj

            He talked about experts, but the only ones who appear to have monitored the system are the ERV and Rossi with adjacent systems.

            My belief is that the “experts” are people brought in to tear apart the report.

          • Ged

            They are contradictions that can’t blend. Also, the IP trace on that comment by Sifferkoll placed it in the DC suburbs, not Boston where Dr. Ahern should be.

          • psi2u2

            Indeed. A question to be asked. So far Rossi is ahead in this round when it comes to consistency of statement about the present situation. By contrast, Rossi’s critics seem to be flooding the internet with contradictory rumors.

          • menos50

            Frank, this 3rd party interjection from IH doesn’t sit well in this.

            I could claim that I have seen the report, and no one would be able to prove or disprove the same on this website, therefore I would discount any 3 party “they said” comments, unless published and documented.

            Rossi’s court documents detail that tests were done and payments were made as they moved toward the 1 year test. These facts seem pretty irrefutable. How incompetent can IH be if they use the same ERV for the early tests and pay for it, then claim his reports are invalid when it comes time to pay the big bucks…actions speak louder than words!

            There is also the matter of a NDA that would certainly seem appropriate in such a multi person even such as this.

            We have not yet seen any official filing from IH in the court case… when this occurs we will have a much better understanding of the realities in play.

      • DrD

        Actually it was pro rated down to zero at cop =2.(6?) I think.

    • wpj

      Well, at least something is certified!

      • Frechette

        You mean Rothwell of course.

        • wpj

          Certainly beginning to suspect it; had a lot of respect for him before.

    • etburg

      I have to say that I am totally puzzled at this point. I am open to believing most anything I suppose, but we now seem to be in a situation where:

      IH initially entered into an agreement where they agreed to pay (and did pay) 10m to Rossi based on a report created by a person they agreed to use at the time and who they now think is incompetent (or corrupt?). Did they believe the initial results just enough to think getting the IP was worth it?

      IH acquiesced by contract to a year long test overseen by this same person, and was present throughout, taking their own measurements presumably, and only concluded at the end of a year, after he’d filed his report, that he didn’t know what he was doing? Oh man. Logically, wouldn’t they have checked over what he had planned prior to the test, had people check out how he’d set up the equipment etc after setup and after the first week to see how it was all going? If they were taking their own measurements and concluded it wasn’t working to spec early on wouldn’t they have raised this issue? After a day? A week? A month?
      I work in a technical field. There are such things as monitoring, regular reporting, weekly status meetings, issue and risk logs etc. Was absolutely everyone under a strict code of silence? Even IH to Rossi internally? If IH was making their own measurements and had engineers poking around and didn’t think the specs were being met, and said nothing for a year, doesn’t that mean that their intention all along was for this to fail and that they were probably relieved when they thought it was off the rails and chose to not say anything about it…?
      It all starts to seem like this whole matter of the “year long test” was just a show on the part of one side or the other (or both), each having their own reasons for acting it out and pretending they were all in it together. IH doesn’t want a test because they don’t want to be on the hook for the 89m – Because Rossi didn’t give them the full IP or because their business strategy has changed, or some other reason – only the parties really know. They delay, Rossi, pushes the point and gets one set up, IH acquiesces but once it is set up looks it all over and decides that they will have plenty of grounds to invalidate it when its done and are happy to have Rossi waste his time sitting in a shipping container for a year to no purpose? (again, oh man…) He suspects their motives but puts his trust in the legal system and being able to prove it worked ultimately – OR – performs the test as due diligence to complete his obligation under the contract at the same time knowing, or suspecting all along they will withdraw relieving him of his obligation to them and making him free to seek another partner?
      Really?
      And all the while we are sitting out here trawling through the comments every day, looking for any little tidbit of news… I must confess to feeling rather silly.
      That being said, I suppose I have had a ringside seat on worse debacles. The stakes are incredibly high and lawsuits in such cases are the norm.
      I guess, mentally and emotionally, I have been set back a year or two.
      Does he have COP in excess of 6 or is he actually stuck down at the same level as everyone else and the rest has all been smoke (or steam?) and mirrors? Only time will tell. It is clear to me that the LENR effect is real. I do think we’re back to wondering whether the COP can be brought up to useful levels, safely, on a sustained basis and under adequate control.
      I have actually grown rather fond of Rossi, he seems passionate, solid and honest to me and I think he believes what he says. He doesn’t read to me at all as a flat out scammer. If he was this is an extremely risky way to go about things. Launching a suit where he has to prove the results in court when he already got 10m out of IH and they seem to want to just leave it alone? Really?
      Of course,he wouldn’t be the first entrepreneur to get carried away. My head is swimming again. Time for some calming tea. We’ll see what happens.

      • cashmemorz

        Since everyone was working on their own separate agenda this leads to the one conclusion that everyone was working from the base of self centered “GREED”. Or collusion towards publicity by extreme means.

      • psi2u2

        “I have actually grown rather fond of Rossi, he seems passionate, solid and honest to me and I think he believes what he says. He doesn’t read to me at all as a flat out scammer.”

        I agree. The situation is still way too fluid to form a dogmatic conclusion, imho. Let’s see what Rossi can do in the next couple of weeks or months.

    • georgehants

      In my opinion Jed Rothwell is asking one of the few relevant questions, that Mr. Rossi’s answer would if sensible help to clear up this mess.

    • Andrew

      Then why wouldn’t IH publish it? Or is mum the word until court? Anyways even if Penon is a blubbering moron why would that look bad on Rossi? IH hired him TWICE!

      • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

        Well. It is fortunate that we are adults and talk here in a constructive way. Im in the optimistic side but im glad when a skeptic gives right reasonings.

        I just dont want to hear – IH says then it is true – Rossi says then it is false.

        As long as the argument is reasoned it is gladly welcome, it doesnt matter who post it – optimistic or skeptic –
        Because both sides should be open to be wrong. The skeptics because if Rossi is right then we have something so big here that must be more important than being wrong or right.
        And the optimistics because we should be aware of a possible scam and to not get deppressed if everything turns wrong.

  • Frank Acland

    I’m trying to follow Jed Rothwell’s argument. The reason to focus on him is that he’s the only person who has publicly identified themselves as hearing from IH on the topic of the ERV report.

    He has stated: “I am confident that the only reason Rossi has not published the Penon report is because it makes him look foolish. It destroys his credibility. I hope that someday the report is published.” https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109320.html

    He has also stated that IH don’t believe the report which says the plant works.

    “Yes, the ERV report said the gadget works. That is what the lawsuit papers say. I.H. disagrees with ERV report.” https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109316.html

    He has also said:

    “As I said, only a lunatic would enforce a contract that gives Penon the sole decision making power, with no appeal to technical accuracy or common sense. As I said, he could write a report saying only:

    ‘”I hereby certify that this reactor produces anomalous heat with a COP exceeding 6. Please remit $89 million.”‘

    “Do you think a court would enforce that?”

    “The Penon report is way more likely to be flawed. The guy is a certified idiot.” https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109321.html

    So putting all these statements together, the conclusion I come to is that Rothwell thinks Rossi is not publishing the report, not because of the results contained in it (IH has apparently told Rothwell that the report states that the plant works) — but because of the incompetence and idiocy of Fabio Penon.

    • Engineer48

      Seems Jed has not read the contract IH signed & is obligated to honour.

      Under the contract, the only way IH would have a $0 obligation is if the COP was 1 or less.

      Bit difficult to run a business that needs 1,000kW of steam on 20kW or less of steam, that is assuming the COP = 1 or less.

    • Barbierir

      Brian Ahern wrote similar or worse informations he heard from IH. Meanwhile neither side is releasing the report. We have a lot of pieces of this puzzle that don’t fit the whole picture.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks — is what he wrote publicly posted?

        • Barbierir

          It was on Sifferkol blog: http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/the-rossi-vs-darden-lenr-ecat-battle-not-about-ip-and-money-all-about-freedom-vs-control/#comment-24640 of course it’s not confirmed it’s him but it fits with his previous attitude towards Rossi

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks very much. I had forgotten the statement. Brian Ahern stated “I communicated with IH. They were never allowed to measure the operation of the MW ECAT. They were not certain that it ever operated at fullpower. Their own attempts at replication always produced no excess energy. Rossi never shared the contents of his system and refused to provide any materials.”

            He says they were never allowed to measure the operation of the plant . Jed Rothwell says there were separate measurements taken that disagreed with the ERV. Can those statements be reconciled?

          • Seems to me the Rossi bashers need to get their talking points straightened out.

          • SG

            No, they cannot be reconciled. IH appears to be sowing confusion.

          • cashmemorz

            This points to possibility of on purpose publication via court proceedings.

          • wpj

            He talked about experts, but the only ones who appear to have monitored the system are the ERV and Rossi with adjacent systems.

            My belief is that the “experts” are people brought in to tear apart the report.

          • Ged

            They are contradictions that can’t blend. Also, the IP trace on that comment by Sifferkoll placed it in the DC suburbs, not Boston where Dr. Ahern should be.

          • psi2u2

            Indeed. A question to be asked. So far Rossi is ahead in this round when it comes to consistency of statement about the present situation. By contrast, Rossi’s critics seem to be flooding the internet with contradictory rumors.

          • menos50

            Frank, this 3rd party interjection from IH doesn’t sit well in this.

            I could claim that I have seen the report, and no one would be able to prove or disprove the same on this website, therefore I would discount any 3 party “they said” comments, unless published and documented.

            Rossi’s court documents detail that tests were done and payments were made as they moved toward the 1 year test. These facts seem pretty irrefutable. How incompetent can IH be if they use the same ERV for the early tests and pay for it, then claim his reports are invalid when it comes time to pay the big bucks…actions speak louder than words!

            There is also the matter of a NDA that would certainly seem appropriate in such a multi person even such as this.

            We have not yet seen any official filing from IH in the court case… when this occurs we will have a much better understanding of the realities in play.

    • wpj

      Well, at least something is certified!

      • Frechette

        You mean Rothwell of course.

        • wpj

          Certainly beginning to suspect it; had a lot of respect for him before.

    • etburg

      I have to say that I am totally puzzled at this point. I am open to believing most anything I suppose, but we now seem to be in a situation where:

      IH initially entered into an agreement where they agreed to pay (and did pay) 10m to Rossi based on a report created by a person they agreed to use at the time and who they now think is incompetent (or corrupt?). Did they believe the initial results just enough to think getting the IP was worth it?

      IH acquiesced by contract to a year long test overseen by this same person, and was present throughout, taking their own measurements presumably, and only concluded at the end of a year, after he’d filed his report, that he didn’t know what he was doing? Oh man. Logically, wouldn’t they have checked over what he had planned prior to the test, had people check out how he’d set up the equipment etc after setup and after the first week to see how it was all going? If they were taking their own measurements and concluded it wasn’t working to spec early on wouldn’t they have raised this issue? After a day? A week? A month?
      I work in a technical field. There are such things as monitoring, regular reporting, weekly status meetings, issue and risk logs etc. Was absolutely everyone under a strict code of silence? Even IH to Rossi internally? If IH was making their own measurements and had engineers poking around and didn’t think the specs were being met, and said nothing for a year, doesn’t that mean that their intention all along was for this to fail and that they were probably relieved when they thought it was off the rails and chose to not say anything about it…?
      It all starts to seem like this whole matter of the “year long test” was just a show on the part of one side or the other (or both), each having their own reasons for acting it out and pretending they were all in it together. IH doesn’t want a test because they don’t want to be on the hook for the 89m – Because Rossi didn’t give them the full IP or because their business strategy has changed, or some other reason – only the parties really know. They delay, Rossi, pushes the point and gets one set up, IH acquiesces but once it is set up looks it all over and decides that they will have plenty of grounds to invalidate it when its done and are happy to have Rossi waste his time sitting in a shipping container for a year to no purpose? (again, oh man…) He suspects their motives but puts his trust in the legal system and being able to prove it worked ultimately – OR – performs the test as due diligence to complete his obligation under the contract at the same time knowing, or suspecting all along they will withdraw relieving him of his obligation to them and making him free to seek another partner?
      Really?
      And all the while we are sitting out here trawling through the comments every day, looking for any little tidbit of news… I must confess to feeling rather silly.
      That being said, I suppose I have had a ringside seat on worse debacles. The stakes are incredibly high and lawsuits in such cases are the norm.
      I guess, mentally and emotionally, I have been set back a year or two.
      Does he have COP in excess of 6 or is he actually stuck down at the same level as everyone else and the rest has all been smoke (or steam?) and mirrors? Only time will tell. It is clear to me that the LENR effect is real. I do think we’re back to wondering whether the COP can be brought up to useful levels, safely, on a sustained basis and under adequate control.
      I have actually grown rather fond of Rossi, he seems passionate, solid and honest to me and I think he believes what he says. He doesn’t read to me at all as a flat out scammer. If he was this is an extremely risky way to go about things. Launching a suit where he has to prove the results in court when he already got 10m out of IH and they seem to want to just leave it alone? Really?
      Of course,he wouldn’t be the first entrepreneur to get carried away. My head is swimming again. Time for some calming tea. We’ll see what happens.

      • cashmemorz

        Since everyone was working on their own separate agenda this leads to the one conclusion that everyone was working from the base of self centered “GREED”. Or collusion towards publicity by extreme means.

      • psi2u2

        “I have actually grown rather fond of Rossi, he seems passionate, solid and honest to me and I think he believes what he says. He doesn’t read to me at all as a flat out scammer.”

        I agree. The situation is still way too fluid to form a dogmatic conclusion, imho. Let’s see what Rossi can do in the next couple of weeks or months.

    • georgehants

      In my opinion Jed Rothwell is asking one of the few relevant questions that Mr. Rossi’s answer would, if sensible help to clear up this mess.
      ——– From Vortex
      You should worry about why Rossi refuses to give his report to anyone
      after he repeatedly promised to Mats Lewan and others that he would publish it.
      His reason for withholding it, which I described in another thread, is
      nonsense. He has been working on this lawsuit for a while. If there were
      any truth to this claim that his lawyer told him not to publish, the lawyer
      would have told him that weeks ago, when Rossi was still promising he would publish.
      It is just an excuse.
      Jed

      • Engineer48

        There are reported to be 18 volumes of undisclosed evidence to be introduced into the trial as Rossi’s attorneys decided how best to do this.

        Many times people say things and then later retract them after expert advice. It is good to see Rossi is listening to his legal team and not being baited by internet posters who clearly do not wish him well.

        • georgehants

          Engineer thanks, no judge or jury can determine the Truth of this or many trials with a system that allows corrupt, paid, expert witnesses.
          Only a designated team of scientists who are provenly unbiased and honest can determine this Truth.
          This situation should be taken over by the government openly and publicly to determine within one month, not any ridiculous petty arguments concerning money and riches but simply, if this discovery warrants billions being invested Globally for the good of Mankind.
          If it is genuine then only Rossi et al receive said sensible riches and the knowledge is published freely Worldwide.
          I think

          • menos50

            Where on this good earth are you going to find ” a designated team of scientists who are provenly (sic) unbiased and honest” to determine anything related to COLD FUSION????

            There is so much bias against it from the scientific community such a task is impossible in this day, and that does not even begin to delve into the realm of BIG Money and their hatred of competition or deep seated desire to control and meter such energy for profit .

          • bachcole

            Utterly unbiased people can only be found meditating in caves in the Himalayas and they are having too much fun to bother with our petty struggles. (:->)

    • Andrew

      Then why wouldn’t IH publish it? Or is mum the word until court? Anyways even if Penon is a blubbering moron why would that look bad on Rossi? IH hired him TWICE!

  • JDM

    An evaporative cooling tower of about 150 tons would take care of that and that is not a big unit. 8 ft. Dia. x 15 ft. H.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    As this episode fades into the background, we could learn what forces are behind IH. Rossi is going to plow ahead to manufacture, we will see what other impediments will be thrown into his path, where they come from, and how crafty, legally and otherwise these dirty tricks will be.

  • Frechette

    Dear Mr. Rothwell:

    In your e-mail https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109316.html you make the following outrageous claim:

    “The Penon report is way more likely to be flawed. The guy is a certified
    idiot.”

    Since your conclusions have no basis in fact your blathering is not to be taken seriously making it worthless in this matter.

  • Frechette

    Dear Mr. Rothwell:

    In your e-mail https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109316.html you make the following outrageous claim:

    “The Penon report is way more likely to be flawed. The guy is a certified
    idiot.”

    Since your conclusions have no basis in fact your blathering is not to be taken seriously making it worthless in this matter.

    • Engineer48

      Blind Freddy can measure 970kW of excess heat generation produced by 20kW of electrical input.

      Plus as Rossi has stated, most of the time the plant was operating in SSM mode and input electrical input would be very small, just that consumed by the jumps and control electronics, so even easier to measure.

      IE 1,000kW thermal steam output from barely enough input power to register on the 3 phase power meter connected to the grid during the SSM periods.

      Anybody who does not understand the above needs to talk to a real engineer and get their facts straight before making wild and unsupportable statements.

  • alan

    Am I missing something. Forget the ERV. What about the customer. The undisclosed British company.
    1. Was it happy with the results.
    2. Did they pay the agreed amount for the power ?
    3. Who paid for the input elec bill ? Was it greater or less than that paid by the customer. If greater, device doesn’t work.
    4. Is the next UK site for the reactor with the same company ? If so it means they believe it works.

    Can someone ask Rossi ?

    • wpj

      ML’s contacts have said

      At least one engineer was sceptical in the beginning, but soon found out that the consumed electric energy was much less than expected, using the E-Cat plant as energy source for the hot steam. And the customer was happy as a lark with this.

      AR has also indicated the same and has said that the plant was re-charged, presumably for continued use (update 40 of the 1 year thread).

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I will. I just posted this on JONP.

      Bernie Koppenhofer

      Your comment is awaiting moderation.

      April 14, 2016 at 12:38 PM

      Dr. Rossi: We have agreed on one issue for five years. Happy customers will ultimately decide the fate of your new fire. That is why I do not understand why you cannot persuade the customer of the year long test to come forward and give his opinion of his savings using the E-Cats.

      • Engineer48

        There is a civil trial in process. 18 volumes of unreleased evidence. All such statements are evidence that will support Rossi’s case against IH. Can we please let him and his legal team decide when to publically release critical evidence?

    • BillH

      Taking 2 and 3 together. Unfortunately the customer paid a fixed price of $1000/day for their power(according to the LA), so they did not benefit more if the COP was greater. Presumably the electrical input was measure precisely though. It may be that IH paid the electric bill, out of the $1000/day they received. This may be a further point of contention if IH had to pay out more for the electricity, but this seems unlikely as the test ran for a full year.

  • cashmemorz

    Laughable, true, but then reality can be stranger than fiction…

  • wpj

    Not me, guv!

  • optiongeek

    Product rollouts shouldn’t be this difficult. If a customer perceives value in something new, they’ll generate demand and the problem will be solved. Viagra was only discovered as a treatment for erectile dysfunction when test subjects in an unrelated clinical trial kept refusing to return the leftover samples. Only after interviewing these recalcitrant participants did the researchers discover what they had.
    If Rossi really has the goods then the people with the money would be running towards him instead of running away.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Unless the people with the really big money were going to be hurt, big time, if they let LENR develop into the market place.

  • optiongeek

    Product rollouts shouldn’t be this difficult. If a customer perceives value in something new, they’ll generate demand and the problem will be solved. Viagra was only discovered as a treatment for erectile dysfunction when test subjects in an unrelated clinical trial kept refusing to return the leftover samples. Only after interviewing these recalcitrant participants did the researchers discover what they had.
    If Rossi really has the goods then the people with the money would be running towards him instead of running away.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Unless the people with the really big money were going to be hurt, big time, if they let LENR develop into the market place.

  • wpj

    ML’s contacts have said

    At least one engineer was sceptical in the beginning, but soon found out that the consumed electric energy was much less than expected, using the E-Cat plant as energy source for the hot steam. And the customer was happy as a lark with this.

    AR has also indicated the same and has said that the plant was re-charged, presumably for continued use (post 40 of the 1 year thread).

  • cashmemorz

    So AR can screen customers for only legitimate use and no modifications without AR intervention.

  • georgehants

    Roger, as usual you may like to re-read my comment, at no time do I claim that “a perpetual motion machine” is a Fact, only that they may be possible and regarding the Universe, that is certainly an open question.
    The rest of your comment assumes that there are not millions of people on this Earth willing to help others with no return at all except satisfaction.
    You may concentrate on them rather than worry about the few who would add nothing to society.

    • cashmemorz

      A device that produces free or almost free energy will for the near future be looked at with awe if it ever hits the market. In the near term some people will certainly get lazy and feel like they deserve it for making life very easy. When everyone gets used to it, a generation or two, then it might be treated like we treat current power. We do tend to stretch its use as much as possible. We have the utopian dream build into our psyche. Some of us lose sleep over how much we can crowd into our lives to make our lives meaningful(in the context of this utopian goal)

      • georgehants

        cashmemorz, Amen to that

  • georgehants

    Jas, many thanks but to me it is not a matter of left right, up, down,in out, but only what would be the best for “all” people.

  • clovis ray

    hi, guys, i would like to,move this conversation on to the customer, it would seem his opinion, would answer a lot of smaller details, like what the cat was used for, how it product was transported, to intended use, how much money did he save over the year, is he talking, surly he can say something, that will not trigger his nda,

    • Engineer48

      There are 18 volumes of unpresented evidence. For sure there are sworn statements from the customer & copies of their energy bills.

      We need to let Rossi’s legal team decide when it is best to release evidential data to the public.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      I have to agree. The “customer” in this context is very important.

      Penon, or testimony by such people are NOT like to be fake at all.

      The question here is how “arms” length is this factory? And if this is a Europe company, then how did they setup and build a factory so fast here? Or did they take “one” process that requires heat – such a test could be relative setup in a short period of time.

      So the term “factory” likely not the best term here, since this European company did not have operations here? (or did they?). And building a factory out of the blue for one test likely no practical?

      I think the issue comes down to who owns the building, who’s paying the electrical bills etc. IH must have some reason for doubting the ERV. The only reasonable explain is that the building or who runs + owns the premises is not arm’s length and thus not trusted by IH.

      A COP of 50+ is remarkable! However without details of the parties involved in this factory and who maintains the building + power etc. likely could clear up issues of who’s paying and supplying the power etc.

      You can’t miss measure 1 million watts. (unless you not paying for the bill). So what power sources go into the ecat, and who pays for such power is a significant issue. Be it BreX or other deceptions, they ALWAYS use authorities to make one’s case, and such authorities tend to be in the dark concerning details.

      You can’t “loose” or miss read a COP of 50, but if conflicts exist in the parties running that factory + building, then those conflicts of interest have to be resolved.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • deleo77

        If someone wants to get to the bottom of this quickly they could simply ask for the power bill that IH paid over the one year test, and the power bill paid by the customer, and the see what the difference is. The delta would equal the amount of energy gain from the e-cat. I am not sure how that could be disputed.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Yep, that’s the whole point of doing the test this way. Whatever fault you may find with the measurements of the test, the one thing you cannot do is fake the energy bill. And you can approximate the COP of the reactor using the energy bill also. Assuming the energy bill does indeed show a mighty reduction, IH doesn’t have a case based on the reactor “not working”.

          • Bob

            Except there likely is no base bill from the customer to compare with! (I state likely as I do not know, unlike the so many posts here) The customer was not in existence until the test started. A published statement by Rossi. We have no facts that the test even was used in a production line. As Mr. Kallal pointed out, it is unlikely that a new plant was constructed just for a test. If it was, there was no base line energy usage to compare. They would have had to build two identical production lines, one with the eCat and one without. We do not know this. Then trying to compare with a factory from the UK is not realistic either.
            .
            We have no facts to base anything here. There could be a viable production line but we have nothing but Rossi says….. on any of this.
            .
            Do not get me wrong… I am not stating Rossi is lying, fraudulent or even simply mistaken… I am certainly not saying that IH / Darden are evil mobsters wringing their hands over all the loot they are going to steal either! This is the picture being painted by many here!
            .
            What I am saying is that so many here absolutely and vividly jump on the occasion to accuse IH / Darden and then praise and hold Rossi to no expectations at the same time, when they really have NO REAL FACTS to do either! Nothing other than what is in Rossi posts.
            .
            Some say Rossi filed a lawsuit so it MUST be true. Well, IH issued rebuttal so what they say MUST be true. If one really looks at both parties long term history (and I do mean really look and not re-publish false / unproven accusations on either Rossi or Darden) you will find a contrast, which at least deserves an innocent until proven guilty approach. Go back and read some of the praises given to IH/Dardne 12 months by the very people yelling for a lynch mob now! All with no real facts. It has become a lynch mob mentality! Very sad.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Those are good points Bob. If there is no baseline energy bill due to the fact that the company was not in existence before, it’s difficult to extract any meaning from said bill. If however the manufactury exists, then possibly the energy bill exists also. Then the “new” customer is just an administrative setup.

            At this point I do not know what to believe.

    • g

      Precisely. The electricity bill is the final revelation and the game is over. Besides, isnt that more consistent with rossi’s approach, that e-cat is a business project and he acts as a businessman and not as a scientist?

    • BillH

      I’m convinced that if the customer did indeed pay $1000/day to receive a continuous supply of 1MWth heat, in the form of steam that they would have made a saving, perhaps a small one if the original supply was gas, but much more significant if the original supply was electricity. 8760MWhrs of steam might cost something like $1.3M, based on cost of $150 per MWhr. IH may have made a tidy sum too, but perhaps not enough to pay off the initial $1.5M they spent buying plant.

      • clovis ray

        Hi, Bill,
        Did you see today comment by Dr.R seems the customer has not only bought this cat, but 3 additional plants for his co. and Dr.R says the evidence is solid, not hear say. and he is very happy, with his xcat and soon to be small pride of cats, now that is great advertising, wouldn’t you think

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Yes, Martin Tornberg’s writings sound very sensible.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    The question is not what volume you use to produce steam, but to process it. Obviously, the required input of the reactor in the link above is unknown. (The electric input is most likely used for stirring, as wpj wrote.)

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I will. I just posted this on JONP.

    Bernie Koppenhofer

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    April 14, 2016 at 12:38 PM

    Dr. Rossi: We have agreed on one issue for five years. Happy customers will ultimately decide the fate of your new fire. That is why I do not understand why you cannot persuade the customer of the year long test to come forward and give his opinion of his savings using the E-Cats.

    • Engineer48

      There is a civil trial in process. 18 volumes of unreleased evidence. All such statements are evidence that will support Rossi’s case against IH. Can we please let him and his legal team decide when to publically release critical evidence?

      • Rossi just claimed that the UK-based plant customer bought 3 more plants.

        • timycelyn

          Go, UK, Go!!

        • georgehants

          From who?

        • psi2u2

          Very good to hear. Link? Quote?

          • Frost*

            Andrea Rossi

            April 14, 2016 at 1:44 PM

            Bernie Koppenhofer:

            You are too intelligent not to understand that a company cannot be happy
            of all the blogosphere hurricane around this issue. Our Customer spoke
            his satisfaction with facts, not words: he bought 3 units like the one
            he tested during this year with a company set up specifically for this
            purpose.

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

          • artefact

            Nice

          • US_Citizen71

            Why invent at all? Everything we currently have works right? Who needs invention? You APCO folks never let up do you?

          • Thanks. If true it means Rossi just got some more capital to use for industrialization (and that the bloody thing works).

          • georgehants

            Who owns this company “set up specifically for this”?

          • We know the US company is JM Products set up specifically by some unnamed UK company to test the 1 MW plant.

            It’s not entirely clear which entity purchased the 3 additional plants, but the money would have come from the UK entity either way.

            We don’t know who the UK entity is yet. They are keeping their head down to avoid the “blogosphere hurricane.”

          • georgehants

            LENR, many thanks, it is clearly critically important to know if this company is owned jointly by Mr. Rossi and IH or by one of them separately.

          • Actually Rossi’s legal paperwork states directly that neither Rossi, Leonardo nor anyone with IH has any ownership stake in the UK company.

            Pending confirmation of course.

          • georgehants

            LENR, you misunderstand, I mean who owns the company that is selling the three extra units
            Who have they been ordered from.

          • Presumed to be Leonardo.

            But we don’t know exactly what’s going on.

          • georgehants

            Until that is clear it can mean many things, all positive unless Mr. Rossi now refuses to declare all relevant details if ordered from Leonardo.
            The court case can have no bearing on this new order and Mr. Rossi must be free to confirm it unequivocally.

          • Buck
          • georgehants

            Buck, I do not know where Hydrofusion fits into all this jumble, my question only concerns Rossi and IH directly.

          • Buck

            Look at the map and draw a reasonable conclusion!

          • georgehants

            Buck, ha, I never draw conclusions, but wait for indisputable Facts.

          • Buck

            LMFAO . . .

          • Quite possible. Maybe they are preparing an announcement.

          • Buck

            How could they not be involved given the scope of the sales & distribution license?

          • If the plants are purchased by the US entity that did the test and also operated here.

            This would be an in your face maneuver by Rossi to IH, basically saying, you break the contract, I market in the US.

            For example. Just conjecture on my part.

          • Buck

            Very highly inflammatory move as if the legal action wasn’t enough. I would hope that cooler heads point to an installation in the UK. It would achieve the exact same point without the gasoline; who in their right mind would buy three additional plants if they did not deliver the heat for the much lower energy costs, ie, COP = +50.

          • georgehants

            Buck no Evidence it seems that it has anything to do with the UK, the “factory” was specifically set up in the US for testing purposes and the UK company may have plants registered in the US in which they wish to fit the units.
            Never conclude on anything without Facts.
            We as always must just wait and see.

          • Roland

            I’m sure that’s struck others, judging from the commentary, that Jed Rothwell hasn’t contributed an original thought to the development of LENR; Jed Rothwell is a librarian with a thinly disguised envy of those who create the contents of his fastidious archives.

            When a rival publisher opened the opportunity to slag a best selling, but oh so suspect, author our hero jumped at the bait with, apparently, genuine avidity. The publisher read him like a book (or a useful idiot to stretch a metaphor) by allowing our hero to, briefly, rub shoulders with his ‘betters’ a in a landscape far, far beyond the insular comforts of his dusty shelves where he, blindly, committed to a course towards a very public undressing to satisfy a pressing need to humble a certain author.

            Now, his arrow fired and his humiliation complete, he still fails to understand how childishly simple it is to manipulate his glaringly obvious animus’s, on command, to to achieve goals our hero still professes not to comprehend.

            Still, after everything, utterly certain that the pernicious author should find no place in a, proper, library, our hero stands on guard for thee and me.

          • I guess the red parts is somewhat in doubt right now. I’ll have to paint the map in blue and yellow … kind of like that actually … And yes, UK is Hydro Fusion territory

          • Stephen

            If would make the world Swedish I guess 😉

          • LarryJ

            Rossi commented on this question and his response was essentially that to declare victory before you have a victory is bad luck and could backfire. He was not going to second guess or declare a victory ahead of the ERV. He has now commented that his measurements are in line with the ERV measurements within the margin of error of the instruments.

          • DrD

            I hope not. They might have a COP of only 25 if their current mearuements were parallel. I’m sure they couldn’t be so amateurish.

          • Yes – it’s commonly overlooked that someone has to build these large and complex reactor units, and that neither IH (just a shell company) nor Rossi would appear to have the quite considerable facilities necessary to do so. There must be another party involved, and this entity will now know how to build at least the pilot reactor type (both versions) and possibly also the ‘X/quark’ prototype, if they were commissioned to make these as well.

            As usual we are seeing the tip of the iceberg at most – or possibly a plastic model of one!

          • psi2u2

            Exactly.

          • Obvious

            Rossi did mention about a month ago that England was next.

          • LarryJ

            “clearly critically important”

            It’s not clear or critical to me at all. Clearly critically important for what? You think that if the customer is not related to IH or Rossi that it will lend credibility to the test. To prove that Rossi’s technology works? If that is the case you are dreaming. No test, and especially no in-house test like this one will ever be accepted as proof of Rossi’s technology. No demo or test could possibly be designed or implemented to do that. This is a paradigm shift. The proof is in the product.

          • psi2u2

            Can Rossi release a photo of a bill of sale or other legal agreement, with the customer’s name redacted, as proof of his statement?

          • Wouldn’t prove anything. Any words, images and even court documents coming from Rossi are presumed fabricated by many if not most.

          • psi2u2

            They have every right to think so, even if they are wrong. For my own part, I’d be interested in such evidence even if others classify it as ipso facto fraudulent.

          • Me too. Even better, I’d like to see the UK company or Hydrofusion announce something in a press release.

          • A problem I have with this narrative is that a constant supply of steam is only required in a limited number of industries (chemicals manufacture, hydrocarbon separation, food prep, papermaking, brewing and similar bulk production). AFAIK this doesn’t include manufacture of either folded foil or ceramic foam catalyser materials.

            Nor does it seem feasible that a UK manufacturer would ship all the plant items necessary to provide a test facility to a previously empty factory in the US, rather than require that a pilot plant be shipped in bits to the UK and reassembled in their existing factory.

            I can’t help feeling that we have been led up the proverbial garden path in at least one aspect of this story. It remains to be seen which.

        • TL;DR for the importance of this nugget:

          Reality must be one of:
          a – Rossi is lying about this
          b – Rossi is a scammer and has fooled the plant customer into buying more
          c – The plant customer is part of Rossi’s master scam conspiracy
          d – Both Rossi and the plant customer think the plant works but it really doesn’t
          e – The plant works

          • Barbierir

            I say b & d are extremely unlikely

          • Agreed. And I also think c is far-fetched. There are a million facts and a mountain of common sense that argue against an elaborate multi-year conspiracy of many players with oh so much to lose and little to gain beyond what they already have.

  • BillH

    Taking 2 and 3 together. Unfortunately the customer paid a fixed price of $1000/day for their power(according to the LA), so they did not benefit more if the COP was greater. Presumably the electrical input was measure precisely though. It may be that IH paid the electric bill, out of the $1000/day they received. This may be a further point of contention if IH had to pay out more for the electricity, but this seems unlikely as the test ran for a full year.

  • Engineer48

    There are 18 volumes of unpresented evidence. For sure there are sworn statements from the customer & copies of their energy bills.

    We need to let Rossi’s legal team decide when it is best to release evidential data to the public.

  • Jerry Soloman

    We know industrial heat Refuses to release the report – because it shows excellent results + 10 COP .. It appears the plan was for industrial heat along with its proxy burillian energy to walk away with Rossi’s IP, but the plan was found out when burillian produced a knockoff product for a demonstration. Stay tuned..

    • bfast

      I’m generally going with your theory. Why IH is trying to excommunicate Rossi is beyond me. Maybe Rossi wants too much. Maybe Rossi is difficult to deal with. I don’t know, but I think that IH had every intention of expelling him from the beginning.

  • Jerry Soloman

    We know industrial heat Refuses to release the report – because it shows excellent results + 10 COP .. It appears the plan was for industrial heat along with its proxy burillian energy to walk away with Rossi’s IP, but the plan was found out when burillian produced a knockoff product for a demonstration. Stay tuned..

    • bfast

      I’m generally going with your theory. Why IH is trying to excommunicate Rossi is beyond me. Maybe Rossi wants too much. Maybe Rossi is difficult to deal with. I don’t know, but I think that IH had every intention of expelling him from the beginning.

  • BillH

    What do IH have to say on the contention that AR was their Chief Scientist? If he was then he was surely paid a salary, that money should be easy to follow?

  • BillH

    What do IH have to say on the contention that AR was their Chief Scientist? If he was then he was surely paid a salary, that money should be easy to follow?

  • georgehants

    Engineer thanks, no judge or jury can determine the Truth of this or many trials with a system that allows corrupt, paid, expert witnesses.
    Only a designated team of scientists who are provenly unbiased and honest can determine this Truth.
    This situation should be taken over by the government openly and publicly to determine within one month, not any ridiculous petty arguments concerning money and riches but simply if this discovery warrants billions being invested Globally for the good of Mankind.
    If it is genuine then only Rossi et al receive said sensible riches and the knowledge is published Worldwide.
    I think

    • menos50

      Where on this good earth are you going to find ” a designated team of scientists who are provenly (sic) unbiased and honest” to determine anything related to COLD FUSION????

      There is so much bias against it from the scientific community such a task is impossible in this day, and that does not even begin to delve into the realm of BIG Money and their hatred of competition or deep seated desire to control and meter such energy for profit .

  • Guest2

    What I really don’t understand is: Rossi says he had the same instruments as Penon on the device, he claims he got almost the same results (within the margin of error of the instruments). How can that be possible when he himself stated time and again until weeks or days before the end of the one year timeframe that the results can be “positive or negative” – clearly painting the results are as yet not distinct enough to predict a positive result. How is that possible? If the COP is really significant – like between 6 and 50 – it would have been obvious after a few weeks or months. If the cop of that plant was good – why invent the hot cat or ecatX? This 1MW plant was an array of “normal” ecats – or hot-cats? Surely not catXs or quark-cats or whatever they are called. All of them seem to work on different principles, with different temperatures, different elements etc. If all that “cats” work, and if all deliver COPs that are significant or even clearly measurable excess heat at all, it would mean that Rossi discovered not one phenomenon, many different phenomena, each worth a Nobel Prize- I find that hard to believe. Would it be not more plausible that all the different cats with their different underlying phenomena are in fact based on the same common cause: a self deception by the inventor due to an error in measurement? Maybe Rossi fell victim to a systematic error or logical flaw in his tests, that did not surface because of all the secrecy. Maybe a due diligence by IH discovered that flaw and they came to the conclusion that when that flaw is eliminated the COP on all the “e-Cats” of various flavors is rather 1 or <1 if measured correctly? I think this seems to be likely, which would indicate that there is no phenomenon at all.

    • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

      The plant was set with 6 Hot Cats. And the CatX was an idea to get electriciy directly from the E-Cat as the conversion from steam to electricity was not eficience enough.

      So now we have two technologies – Hot Cat and Ecat-X wich could be used in two different environments.

    • Ged

      I think he was under obligation to say “positive or negative”. I don’t remember seeing anything like that written in the published contracts, but as soon as him and IH got in their agreement, he started doing that with everything. Could be that was an informal rule they had hashed out. Not until the ERV report was sent to him did he drop that habit, which makes sense, again, if he was obligated to say that until an ERV gave results.

      • bachcole

        Or until he got I.H. off his back with their breaking the contract with their non-payment.

    • bfast

      My take on Rossi’s “positive or negative” comment was partly “politically correct” — can’t make claims that are unpublished. However, I think there was also this “350 days within 400” (or whatever the numbers were) requirement. If the whole thing blew up at 349, well, results would have been kinda negative.

    • US_Citizen71

      Why invent at all? Everything we currently have works right? Who needs invention? You APCO folks never let up do you?

    • Hi all

      In reply to Guest2 and any APCO Worldwide mouthpiece with a similar argument.

      It may be that both Rossi and IH signed an NDA agreement that the Report cannot be released for a set period of time or until both parties agree to its publication. So F9 is the inherent effect of this.

      Such an NDA could have a clause that puts the offending party into severe contractual and financial distress if they trigger it. The court may demand such an NDA be included in full disclosure and document discovery.

      IH or Rossi might seek to delay its publication for their own purposes. The fact that Rossi has gone to court seems to indicate he wishes to publish but IH are blocking.

      If Rossi signed such an NDA then it may be that he is not permitted to speak about the report except what must be published for the court case.

      Rossi’s Lawyer may have advised Rossi to hold back on publication so as not to trigger any clause of the NDA, until trial when the court can force its publication against the will of either party.

      Kind Regards walker

    • LarryJ

      Rossi commented on this question and his response was essentially that to declare victory before you have a victory is bad luck and could backfire. He was not going to second guess or declare a victory ahead of the ERV. He has now commented that his measurements are in line with the ERV measurements within the margin of error of the instruments.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    I have to agree. The “customer” in this context is very important.

    Penon, or testimony by such people are NOT like to be fake at all.

    The question here is how “arms” length is this factory? And if this is a Europe company, then how did they setup and build a factory so fast here? Or did they take “one” process that requires heat – such a test could be relative setup in a short period of time.

    So the term “factory” likely not the best term here, since this European company did not have operations here? (or did they?). And building a factory out of the blue for one test likely no practical?

    I think the issue comes down to who owns the building, who’s paying the electrical bills etc. IH must have some reason for doubting the ERV. The only reasonable explain is that the building or who runs + owns the premises is not arm’s length and thus not trusted by IH.

    A COP of 50+ is remarkable! However without details of the parties involved in this factory and who maintains the building + power etc. likely could clear up issues of who’s paying and supplying the power etc.

    You can’t miss measure 1 million watts. (unless you not paying for the bill). So what power sources go into the ecat, and who pays for such power is a significant issue. Be it BreX or other deceptions, they ALWAYS use authorities to make one’s case, and such authorities tend to be in the dark concerning details.

    You can’t “loose” or miss read a COP of 50, but if conflicts exist in the parties running that factory + building, then those conflicts of interest have to be resolved.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • deleo77

      If someone wants to get to the bottom of this quickly they could simply ask for the power bill that IH paid over the one year test, and the power bill paid by the customer, and the see what the difference is. The delta would equal the amount of energy gain from the e-cat. I am not sure how that could be disputed.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Yep, that’s the whole point of doing the test this way. Whatever fault you may find with the measurements of the test, the one thing you cannot do is fake the energy bill. And you can approximate the COP of the reactor using the energy bill also. Assuming the energy bill does indeed show a mighty reduction, IH doesn’t have a case based on the reactor “not working”.

        • Roland

          Stupidity sometimes has vast consequences.

  • timycelyn

    Guest 10 below

  • Rossi just claimed that the UK-based plant customer bought 3 more plants.

    • timycelyn

      Go, UK, Go!!

    • georgehants

      From who?

      • bachcole

        From whom? That is the big question! And even better than the answer to that question would be if the customer were to confirm from their own website or a media announcement that they were the customer and they were very happy about the result. But given the fact that the customer would want to stay ahead of their competition, it is very likely that we may not know this for a long time to come.

        A positive response to this question/issue will reduce my cognitive dissonance greatly.

    • psi2u2

      Very good to hear. Link? Quote?

      • Frost*

        Andrea Rossi

        April 14, 2016 at 1:44 PM

        Bernie Koppenhofer:

        You are too intelligent not to understand that a company cannot be happy
        of all the blogosphere hurricane around this issue. Our Customer spoke
        his satisfaction with facts, not words: he bought 3 units like the one
        he tested during this year with a company set up specifically for this
        purpose.

        Warm Regards,

        A.R.

        • artefact

          Nice

        • Thanks. If true it means Rossi just got some more capital to use for industrialization (and that the bloody thing works).

          • Bicke Dutte

            Could also be that he setup the company with part of the 10m he got, but that’s a very-long winded scam then

          • So now he’s scamming himself? Dang he’s good.

          • Bicke Dutte

            Sometimes you have to spend 5 to earn 50 but I hope this is not the case here

        • georgehants

          Who owns this company “set up specifically for this”?

          • We know the US company is JM Products set up specifically by some unnamed UK company to test the 1 MW plant.

            It’s not entirely clear which entity purchased the 3 additional plants, but the money would have come from the UK entity either way.

            We don’t know who the UK entity is yet. They are keeping their head down to avoid the “blogosphere hurricane.”

          • georgehants

            LENR, many thanks, it is clearly critically important to know if this company is owned jointly by Mr. Rossi and IH or by one of them separately.

          • Actually Rossi’s legal paperwork states directly that neither Rossi, Leonardo nor anyone with IH has any ownership stake in the UK company.

            Pending confirmation of course.

          • georgehants

            LENR, you misunderstand, I mean who owns the company that is selling the three extra units
            Who have they been ordered from.

          • Presumed to be Leonardo.

            But we don’t know exactly what’s going on.

          • georgehants

            Until that is clear it can mean many things, all positive unless Mr. Rossi now refuses to declare all relevant details if ordered from Leonardo.
            The court case can have no bearing on this new order and Mr. Rossi must be free to confirm it unequivocally.

          • Buck
          • georgehants

            Buck, I do not know where Hydrofusion fits into all this jumble, my question only concerns Rossi and IH directly.

          • Buck

            Look at the map and draw a reasonable conclusion!

          • georgehants

            Buck, ha, I never draw conclusions, but wait for indisputable Facts.

          • Buck

            LMFAO . . .

          • bachcole

            It is curious that there are many reasonable people who dispute many of your indisputable Facts.

          • Quite possible. Maybe they are preparing an announcement.

          • Buck

            How could they not be involved given the scope of the sales & distribution license?

          • If the plants are purchased by the US entity that did the test and also operated here.

            This would be an in your face maneuver by Rossi to IH, basically saying, you break the contract, I market in the US.

            For example. Just conjecture on my part.

          • Buck

            Very highly inflammatory move as if the legal action wasn’t enough. I would hope that cooler heads point to an installation in the UK. It would achieve the exact same point without the gasoline; who in their right mind would buy three additional plants if they did not deliver the heat for the much lower energy costs, ie, COP = +50.

          • georgehants

            Buck no Evidence it seems that it has anything to do with the UK, the “factory” was specifically set up in the US for testing purposes and the UK company may have plants registered in the US in which they wish to fit the units.
            Never conclude on anything without Facts.
            We as always must just wait and see.

          • I guess the red parts is somewhat in doubt right now. I’ll have to paint the map in blue and yellow … kind of like that actually … And yes, UK is Hydro Fusion territory

          • Stephen

            If would make the world Swedish I guess 😉

          • BillH

            Greenland, snigger, hehe. I suppose it gets very cold there!

          • Yes – it’s commonly overlooked that someone has to build these large and complex reactor units, and that neither IH (just a shell company) nor Rossi would appear to have the quite considerable facilities necessary to do so. There must be another party involved, and this entity will now know how to build at least the pilot reactor type (both versions) and possibly also the ‘X/quark’ prototype, if they were commissioned to make these as well.

            As usual we are seeing the tip of the iceberg at most – or possibly a plastic model of one!

          • psi2u2

            Exactly.

          • Obvious

            Rossi did mention about a month ago that England was next.

          • LarryJ
          • psi2u2

            Can Rossi release a photo of a bill of sale or other legal agreement, with the customer’s name redacted, as proof of his statement?

          • Wouldn’t prove anything. Any words, images and even court documents coming from Rossi are presumed fabricated by many if not most.

          • psi2u2

            They have every right to think so, even if they are wrong. For my own part, I’d be interested in such evidence even if others classify it as ipso facto fraudulent.

          • Me too. Even better, I’d like to see the UK company or Hydrofusion announce something in a press release.

          • A problem I have with this narrative is that a constant supply of steam is only required in a limited number of industries (chemicals manufacture, hydrocarbon refining, food and drinks preparation, laundries, papermaking, brewing and similar bulk production, of which there is no sign at the premises concerned). AFAIK this list doesn’t include manufacture of either folded foil or ceramic foam exhaust catalyser materials – the relevant business of the UK concern which may have commissioned the test.

            Nor does it seem feasible that a UK manufacturer would ship all the plant items necessary to provide a test facility to the US, then transport these to a previously empty factory and reassemble them, and also arrange for a suitable heavy duty power supply to be laid on – rather than simply require that a pilot plant be shipped in bits to the UK and reassembled in their existing factory.

            I can’t help feeling that we have been led up the proverbial garden path in at least one aspect of this story. It remains to be seen which.

        • bachcole

          Wonderful. Very hopeful. But, this is still “Rossi says”. If someone were to put a gun to my head and forced me to choose, I would say that it is true. But, it is still “Rossi says”. I prefer the nuisance of uncertainty but self-honesty to reaching an unwarranted conclusion. (Self-honesty? I really do not know until we get independent confirmation.)

    • TL;DR for the importance of this nugget:

      Reality must be one of:
      a – Rossi is lying about this
      b – Rossi is a scammer and has fooled the plant customer into buying more
      c – The plant customer is part of Rossi’s master scam conspiracy
      d – Both Rossi and the plant customer think the plant works but it really doesn’t
      e – The plant works

      • Barbierir

        I say b & d are extremely unlikely

        • Agreed. And I also think c is far-fetched. There are a million facts and a mountain of common sense that argue against an elaborate multi-year conspiracy of many players with oh so much to lose and little to gain beyond what they already have.

    • bachcole

      This is the most certain way that LENR is going to spread. This is the LENR Juggernaut. All other ways of spread are less certain.

      The only questions are:

      1. Is Rossi telling the truth? I look forward to confirmation. I have no reason to think that he is lying, but self-reports are not always reliable.

      2. Is the E-Cat mature enough now to spread this way?

      1 for me is uncertain. 2 is 87% certain.

  • Ged

    I think he was under obligation to say “positive or negative”. I don’t remember seeing anything like that written in the published contracts, but as soon as him and IH got in their agreement, he started doing that with everything. Could be that was an informal rule they had hashed out. Not until the ERV report was sent to him did he drop that habit, which makes sense, again, if he was obligated to say that until an ERV gave results.

    • bachcole

      Or until he got I.H. off his back with their breaking the contract with their non-payment.

  • NCkhawk

    Rossi says ERV report release is no longer necessary. I predict that he is going to bail out on Mats’ conference next.

    • LarryJ

      I see no correlation between those two points. The ERV report is no longer necessary because its purpose was to validate the technology which it now has done. We all know the main finding. Read Rossi’s legal statement of claim.The report was never intended to prove the technology to the public, that is not possible. The ERV’s report was a contractual obligation between Leonardo and IH which was fulfilled.

      Rossi has said he intends to announce his quarkx (F8) at a press conference in Sweden and do an interview at Mats Lewan’s Symposium. Mats has said he wanted to know the results of the ERV’s test before he went ahead with the Symposium. Now that he knows the result I expect the Symposium will go ahead, but if it doesn’t it won’t be Rossi’s fault and I expect Rossi would still hold his press conference. He has already stated that his press conference was not going to be a Symposium event.

      Your comment sounds like you think Rossi is intentionally withholding the ERV report and his “next” outrageous move will be to bail on Mats’ symposium. I would give odds against your prediction.

  • Wuschy

    Hi All,

    I’m not a community guy at all, but reading much. Also read that it might be a publicity “thing” to get the e-cat known to the world… so I went to Google, searching for “E-Cat” in News… very interesting. People got awake!

    Best regards

  • quinn47

    Perhaps this is what is going on: Rossi made a plant that works and IH confirms that it does. Rossi transferred the IP to IH who made their own plant and it does not work. The conclusion is that Rossi is holding back something crucial. Thus, IH won’t pay since their plant based on Rossi IP does not work.

    • Gerald

      What I read in the agreement, that the catalyzer formula was not included in the technical information transfer.

      • Frank Acland

        Where do you find that, Gerald?

        • Gerald
          • Pat

            Suddenly, there is no mystery. IH could not make CF work without the formula (if, in fact, Rossi never did turn over the correct formula). IH wrongly felt they could figure it out. IH breached the contract when they failed to pay. Rossi is free to sell in US and China now. But, if Rossi failed to deliver the *working* formula, then Rossi may have breached the contract first. Or, perhaps Rossi failed to adequately support IH in their use of the IP. Time will tell.

          • LarryJ

            IH made the 1 MW test plant that had a cop of 50. They built the prototype and they can and will build more of them. Their technical/scientific team is Brillouin and they are ready to compete with Leonardo. They don’t care about the ERV report. It has done its job. They know the device works. The patent/licensing fight will go on in the background for many years. Now they need to try and beat Leonardo to the market and get market share.

          • The transfer of the formula is written just below in the same doc.

          • Here, same page, further down, from the license agreement.

          • Gerald

            Yes, I see it now. Like I said above, I’ve done to much reading, i’m getting sloppy. Sorry.

          • Carl Wilson

            I thought I was sort of understanding the questions being dealt with but now I’m utterly confused. All this talk about Rossi needing to turn over the IP to IH — you mean that didn’t include the Catalyzer Formula?

          • Carl Wilson

            Okay, explained by Lomax above.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            Read the bottom of that page. After the $10 million was received, Rossi was committed to delivery of the Catalyzer Formula and all information necessary to make it. The clause emphasized above was before Engineer written verification. Rossi obligated himself to turn it all over. Rossi was not just selling a 1 MW power plant for $110.5 million, he wasn’t just selling instructions for making the devices exclusive of the Formula, he was selling the whole thing (subject to the license limitations, i.e., territory).

          • Gerald

            Sorry, I see it now. I think I reading to much and start making mistakes.. No harm intended.

          • Pat

            The agreement includes language that makes me think the formula may have been included. See, for example, 16.1 as to the definition of E-CAT IP. I think there is room for legal disagreement here. I believe the intent of 3.2(b) is to prevent the formula from being turned over to the validation team. I believe it is clear from 16.1 that Rossi needed to hand the formula over to IH – and maybe he did not. Or, what he did turn over is not correct or current – i.e. sufficient to successfully operate a 1MW replication plant built by IH.

  • bfast

    My take on Rossi’s “positive or negative” comment was partly “politically correct” — can’t make claims that are unpublished. However, I think there was also this “350 days within 400” (or whatever the numbers were) requirement. If the whole thing blew up at 349, well, results would have been kinda negative.

  • LOL. MY can’t get his head around IH’s actions either.

    http://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair#comment-4595

    “I still don’t understand Darden’s purpose in commissioning a one year test of an aggregation of ecat modules, all done by Rossi and his friends and attorney! It’s a farce! Is Darden really THAT inept? Are his advisers THAT incompetent?”

    • NCkhawk

      The test and ERV are all Rossi concoctions. Follow the pattern and know that he is busted by his own hand this time. The lion appears to sleep tonight but Rossi knows that is not the case. He does not know when but lives in fear of when the lion will strike back.

      • psi2u2

        That’s why his customer has just bought 3 more 1 MW units, right?

        • NCkhawk

          Do you think he’ll make the units in the US and ship them to the UK? If the order is real from his fake customer, I wonder if he has thought about the export license yet?

          • Andrew

            Rossi doesn’t need an export licence if he sells them in the US. The customer would then need an export licence. Round and round we go.

      • timycelyn

        Do try and remember to take your medications, you know that they help.

        These lions you refer to arn’t really there, you know – just take the little white tablets and it will all become peaceful again with no more lions….

        • NCkhawk

          It doesn’t matter what you think. Rossi knows that he has now become the prey The silence of the night is deafening. It didn’t have to be that way. He is making horrible moves these days and this will not end well for him.

        • roseland67

          Well played in the meds

  • Bob

    I would like to make a suggestion to Frank…
    .
    There have been some clocks and polls before on this site about various topics.
    Perhaps he should do the following:
    .
    Make a polling list where a person’s blog name is recorded under one of four opinions.
    The list would remain until the end of the lawsuit. (Or whatever might close this saga).
    .
    The four opinions would be:
    1) Rossi will be 100% vindicated. All that he posts is reasonably accurate and will come true. He is the victim and without any fault. IH/Darden are criminals and are to be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.
    .
    2) IH/Darden will be 100% vindicated. They will be vindicated as honest and honorable entities. They are the victims in a long term scam and will prove that Rossi is the villain of the story and that he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.
    .
    3) The story is complex and neither party is vile nor corrupt. That both sides are at error and share blame. One side may win in court, but the outcome will show that both acted in relative good faith. That the testing may have been flawed or the methods not reliable.
    .
    4) There simply is not enough factual information to make a logical and reasonable determination at this time. Until the reports and real data (not Rossi says) are released, no determination can be reasonably made. I will not accuse Rossi nor Darden of any evil intentions.
    .
    It seems so many here are so entrenched that the evidence is so clear and the verdict can be determined now, that I say let them click on a list and put their blog name on record. In the upcoming months, it will be very interesting, if not entertaining to see the results! It would be interesting to see if this were done, once people committed their name to an opinion, it their the content and tone of their posts would follow suit!
    🙂

    • Frank Acland

      A poll wouldn’t be a problem, Bob. But they are anonymous and would not include the names of voters.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Unfortunately Frank is correct….polls like this get griefed badly by those who want to toy with the results. As an E-Cat skeptic…I will admit it will mostly be the disrespectful skeptics skewing the poll rather than the Rossi followers. At least I think its pretty obvious who is in which camp of the common names in here that post often. Hopefully it wont turn into a “I told you so” too badly…but the discussions after we have REAL answers at some point will be quite interesting and amusing as everyone is quite polarized and charged over this.

      • Bob

        I am afraid I see one group changing their mind. . It will not matter what the out come is.. Just like religion….
        , the church of Rossi will see him victorious if he wins, rightly so. Most people who are skeptical (not patho) will gladly clap and applaud.
        .
        If he does not win, the judge will be biased, the legal system corrupt and the famed “PTB” control everything to the jury selection! Just as 8 months ago, IH/Darden were the “cats meow” and best thing since sliced bread. Just go back and search the posts and see what some of the current deacons posted. What a turn about with no real facts. The only sin was IH / Darden committed blasphemy against “The Creator”.
        .
        Most skeptics (not patho) will be saddened if Rossi is badly disposed. Some will say I told you so, but most here are not ill willed or intention. They really would like to see him succeed, they are just not blind to everything else.
        .
        That is why I do not want a simple poll. If the blog names cannot be posted along with their vote, then it simply becomes a meaningless number, just like all the meaningless “absolutes” being cast about now!.
        .

        • Alex Fenrick

          I may be wrong here, but I think what Frank is saying is that the poll script he would use here on disqus or whatever web framework he uses for the site does not support attaching names to the votes….so in essence what you are describing would happen…just numbers. Now if there is a way to easily post a poll in either of said frameworks where one can enter a name in a comment box or something like that for example…then it would make for an interesting poll if you could see who voted for what choices. Again that is just my take on what Frank said….sorry if I am incorrect there Frank.

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          Well. It is fortunate that we are adults and talk here in a constructive way. Im in the optimistic side but im glad when a skeptic gives right reasonings.

          I just dont want to hear – IH says then it is true – Rossi says then it is false.

          As long as the argument is reasoned it is gladly welcome, it doesnt matter who post it – optimistic or skeptic –
          Because both sides should be open to be wrong. The skeptics because if Rossi is right then we have something so big here that must be more important than being wrong or right.
          And the optimistics because we should be aware of a possible scam and to not get deppressed if everything turns wrong.

  • Frank Acland

    A poll wouldn’t be a problem, Bob. But they are anonymous and would not include the names of voters.

  • So now he’s scamming himself? Dang he’s good.

  • Hi all

    In reply to Guest2 and any APCO Worldwide mouthpiece with a similar argument.

    It may be that both Rossi and IH signed an NDA agreement that the Report cannot be released for a set period of time or until both parties agree to its publication. So F9 is the inherent effect of this.

    Such an NDA could have a clause that puts the offending party into severe contractual and financial distress if they trigger it. The court may demand such an NDA be included in full disclosure and document discovery.

    IH or Rossi might seek to delay its publication for their own purposes. The fact that Rossi has gone to court seems to indicate he wishes to publish but IH are blocking.

    If Rossi signed such an NDA then it may be that he is not permitted to speak about the report except what must be published for the court case.

    Rossi’s Lawyer may have advised Rossi to hold back on publication so as not to trigger any clause of the NDA, until trial when the court can force its publication against the will of either party.

    Kind Regards walker

  • Gerald

    What I read in the agreement, that the catalyzer formula was not included in the technical information transfer.

    • Frank Acland

      Where do you find that, Gerald?

      • Gerald
        • timycelyn

          Spelling 2/10 must try harder…..

          Shill – sorry!

          “A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization. Shills can carry out their operations in the areas of media, journalism, marketing or other business areas.”

          • Bruce__H

            OK.

            How do you distinguish between a shill and someone who simply disagrees with you?

        • The transfer of the formula is written just below in the same doc.

          • Here, same page, further down, from the license agreement.

          • Gerald

            Yes, I see it now. Like I said above, I’ve done to much reading, i’m getting sloppy. Sorry.

        • Carl Wilson

          I thought I was sort of understanding the questions being dealt with but now I’m utterly confused. All this talk about Rossi needing to turn over the IP to IH — you mean that didn’t include the Catalyzer Formula?

          • Carl Wilson

            Okay, explained by Lomax above.

        • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

          Read the bottom of that page. After the $10 million was received, Rossi was committed to delivery of the Catalyzer Formula and all information necessary to make it. The clause emphasized above was before Engineer written verification. Rossi obligated himself to turn it all over. Rossi was not just selling a 1 MW power plant for $110.5 million, he wasn’t just selling instructions for making the devices exclusive of the Formula, he was selling the whole thing (subject to the license limitations, i.e., territory).

          • Gerald

            Sorry, I see it now. I think I reading to much and start making mistakes.. No harm intended.

  • georgehants

    As this is so immensely important, I am sure somebody is putting the relevant questions on JONP right now, (Frank) ha.

  • georgehants

    As this is so immensely important, I am sure somebody is putting the relevant questions on JONP right now, (Frank) ha.

  • Hi all

    I said this below in reply to Guest2 but I thought it needed a new branch to discuss it properly.

    I place this as a possible explanation for both Rossi and IH’s inability to publish the report. Why Jed does not recognise that IH could just as easily publish the ERV as Rossi is I think odd.

    It may be that both Rossi and IH signed an NDA agreement that the Report cannot be released for a set period of time or until both parties agree to its publication. So F9 is the inherent effect of this.

    Such an NDA could have a clause that puts the offending party into severe contractual and financial distress if they trigger it. The court may demand such an NDA be included in full disclosure and document discovery, which then releases all parties.

    IH or Rossi might seek to delay its publication for their own purposes. The fact that Rossi has gone to court seems to indicate he wishes to publish but IH are blocking.

    If Rossi signed such an NDA then it may be that he is not permitted to speak about the report except what must be published for the court case, which is the case.

    Rossi’s Lawyer may have advised Rossi to hold back on publication so as not to trigger any clause of the NDA, until trial when the court can force its publication against the will of either party.

    Kind Regards walker

  • Hi all

    I said this below in reply to Guest2 but I thought it needed a new branch to discuss it properly.

    I place this as a possible explanation for both Rossi and IH’s inability to publish the report. Why Jed does not recognise that IH could just as easily publish the ERV as Rossi is I think odd.

    It may be that both Rossi and IH signed an NDA agreement that the Report cannot be released for a set period of time or until both parties agree to its publication. So F9 is the inherent effect of this.

    Such an NDA could have a clause that puts the offending party into severe contractual and financial distress if they trigger it. The court may demand such an NDA be included in full disclosure and document discovery, which then releases all parties.

    IH or Rossi might seek to delay its publication for their own purposes. The fact that Rossi has gone to court seems to indicate he wishes to publish but IH are blocking.

    If Rossi signed such an NDA then it may be that he is not permitted to speak about the report except what must be published for the court case, which is the case.

    Rossi’s Lawyer may have advised Rossi to hold back on publication so as not to trigger any clause of the NDA, until trial when the court can force its publication against the will of either party.

    Kind Regards walker

  • psi2u2

    That’s why his customer has just bought 3 more 1 MW units, right?

  • Josh G

    I think Rossi’s quote cited in another thread fits here: ““I want not our customers assailed by the puppets moved by their puppeteers. Let the plant go to work, then they will reveal themselves automatically. Probably you did not understand that there is a war against us.”

    Is Jed one of those puppets?

    I think Rossi sees perfectly clearly what’s going on behind all the machinations. I just hope he has the wits to outsmart them. Powerful forces are aligned against him.

    • Zavod

      I just hope that the Illuminati are not working behind the scene to derail Rossi.

  • Josh G

    I think Rossi’s quote cited in another thread fits here: ““I want not our customers assailed by the puppets moved by their puppeteers. Let the plant go to work, then they will reveal themselves automatically. Probably you did not understand that there is a war against us.”

    Is Jed one of those puppets?

    I think Rossi sees perfectly clearly what’s going on behind all the machinations. I just hope he has the wits to outsmart them. Powerful forces are aligned against him.

    • Zavod

      I just hope that the Illuminati are not working behind the scene to derail Rossi.

      • clovis ray

        Well, yeh, but if those folks, figured the petro dollor was going to crash, and wanted in on the next best thing known to man, and saw it at work doing work and their owners are happy, HMMMMMmmm

  • Obvious

    Science is not science if there is nothing to test.
    Certainly there is much “not science” that can still be real.

  • JedRothwell

    I meant that Rossi’s press release says there is 50 times input, and the I.H. press release says they were not able to “substantiate” the results. Surely a reactor that produces 50 times input would substantiate the claim!

    So Rossi is saying it worked, and I.H. is saying it did not. One of them has to be making a mistake. Who is right? I don’t know, but I trust the technical abilities of I.H. more than I trust Rossi’s. Rossi has made many big mistakes before.

    I am sure that I.H. experts wrote reports. I guess only Penon wrote the official ERV report. Anyway, the experts disagree.

    That’s all I meant. I was just pointing to the press releases. Sorry if I phrased it in a way that caused people to read more into it than that.

    • Andrew

      Penon isn’t Rossi! And vice versa. IH hired Penon twice(half with Rossi on the last).

      • Pweet

        Yes, but you would have to wonder why, of all the scientists and engineers in America, why would IH coincidentally pick Penon? a person who has had a previous relationship with Rossi.
        It was previously said how the ERV report was received would depend entirely on who the supposed customer was, where the test was conducted, and who the ERV was.
        Is was not at all reassuring to find the customer looks to be an arrangement set up by Rossi specifically to test the plant, and the ERV was a person who had a prior association with Mr. Rossi.
        It is quite possible IH was maneuvered into accepting both that customer and that ERV.
        Had the customer been a long standing industrial operation where the ecat was slotted in to a previously existing heat generating function, and the ERV was contracted from some long standing company which specialises in such things, the report would carry far more weight, Rossi’s postition would look far more believable and the position of IH would look far less believable.
        As it stands, that is not the case. The whole issue of the customer, the test site and the ERV looks tainted, or at least,does not preclude the possibility that it is.
        Why is it that every test and demonstration of the ecat has this same defect?

    • Of course the IH “experts” disagree. $89M disagree… What use are they otherwise?

      • JedRothwell

        Well, I suppose if the experts had agreed, I.H. would have happily paid the money. They want working cold fusion reactors, after all. That’s what they say. I have no reason to doubt them.

        Anyway, I am just telling you where I go the information: from the press releases. Take it or leave it. If you don’t like press releases, or you do not believe them, I have nothing more to offer.

      • menos50

        IH was never able to raise the $89 million, they didn’t have the money to pay the deal… so they naturally claim it didn’t work so they don’t have to pay….they got 50 million from Woodford in England, that’s all.

        The Customer just bought 3 more 1MW systems…what does that say about whether it works or not?

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          Well. Even i believe the plant works. What we have about the customer are only Rossi’s words.

          We just need to see a photograph of one of the new plants being assembled sent by Rossi or something similar to know that the plants are really being built.

        • Pweet

          Nothing until it can be proven they really did buy them.
          And even then, not a lot until it can be proven they actually work.

          What did selling millions of dollars worth of non functional thermoelectric converters to the DOD say about anything other than Mr. Rossi is an excellent salesman?
          Inoperable junk is bought and sold every day. This fact does not make it functional.

          • menos50

            Hey Pweet…. do you have any ” facta non verba” That the system DOD bought didn’t work??? Can we see the data?

            I guess that fact that you cannot prove it doesn’t work makes your story just as suspicious as you claim others are….

            Edison made 2,000 light bulbs that didn’t work….others had not made any either that would work commercially, but Edison was way ahead and his bulb made it….

            Rossi has been working on this in earnest longer than anyone else, so maybe he is just a tad ahead of the others…

    • menos50

      Why would you trust IH, they didn’t exist before 2013… they have no track record whatsoever. They are a shell company set up by the parent investment firm.

      • JedRothwell

        Well, I have some difficulty trusting Rossi. He does controversial things. He nearly blew up some nice, straight arrow engineers from NASA. That would have been a shame!

        NASA engineers are my kind of people.

        I get a good impression from I.H. Really, that’s all I can say. I don’t know anything about their business.

        • menos50

          Where did you read this, and how are you knowledgeable about NASA Engineers? My dealings with NASA people have been less than amazing.

          PS: Good impressions are not terribly factual nor are they admissible in court.

          • JedRothwell

            I spent a couple of days with the NASA people at the Williamsburg conference.

            I have nothing to do with any court case. Impressions are what they are, and better than nothing.

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          NASA engineers is Bushnell and Zavodny?

          • JedRothwell

            No, Mike Nelson and some others. Great people!

        • Eyedoc

          What !!? ‘blew up’ ? again with wild accusations…..please completely explain this allegation ..time, place, persons should all be included . Thank you in advance

          • JedRothwell

            Nothing blew up. I said he nearly blew up the NASA people, on Sept. 6, 2011. It is not an allegation. It is common knowledge. They discussed it in detail at the Williamsburg conference and many other times. I am surprised you don’t know about it. Even Krivit reported this accurately, although not in much detail:

            http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2012/Report-4-Rossis-NASA-Test-Fails-to-Launch.shtml

            The reactor outlet hose was plugged up. Rossi kept insisting there was fluid flowing through. Finally, Jim Dunn pulled off the outlet hose, held his hand in front of the reactor, and said “Andrea, NOTHING IS COMING OUT!” Rossi still insisted it was working. The temperature was rising. The reactor was wrapped in insulation and steam was starting to come out from under it, and from the seams.

            Jim asked, “what pressure is your relief valve set for?” Pause. No answer. It became clear there was no relief valve under the insulation. The crowd left the room in a hurry. When they later opened the reactor the room was filled with steam.

            They offered to come back but Rossi refused to try again. He demanded payment, and he got hopping mad when they said they had to see a valid test first.

            Rossi is sloppy and he does dangerous things, with half-assed instruments and plumbing.

      • Michael W Wolf

        A parent company who was slapped by the SEC.

    • menos50

      Apples and oranges ans misrepresentations…. IH claims not to have been able it make it work in its press release, but… in their demonstrations to Woodford and others they claim to have demonstrated it working plus they paid for the demonstrations of function along the way to the one year testing… it worked, but when it comes time to pay money they don’t have, now it doesn’t work???? yeah sure I believe that…

      • JedRothwell

        I have never heard of Woodford and I have no idea what you are talking about, so I cannot comment.

        • hmmm why am I not surprised?

          You need to spend more time here Jed. Or at least at my LENR chat room where I post all the LENR highlights from this and other sites.

          It really helps you connect the dots if you collect them up first.

          http://www.chatwing.com/LENRChat

        • menos50

          Well Jed, I don’t want to cast aspersions, but it is factually obvious you have not done much reading here or anywhere else about this matter…

          http://ecat.org/tag/industrial-heat-llc/ Woodford is openly mentioned here and several other places .

          • JedRothwell

            You are right. I have read nothing at all about this. I am interested in science, not gossip, politics or other people’s business.

          • menos50

            Well , Jed, You know that all things revolve around money… you can have very little science without the money to fund it, and that relates to the reality that he who pays the money usually determines what science is funded, or may be those that fail to fund in a contract are in deep doo doo ! The old saying , “Follow the Money”, when pursued usually gives real answers that most people miss when evaluating a scenario.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well stop gossiping Jed.

        • wizkid

          When you say you have never heard of Woodford, your statement places your your intelligence below a cop of 1. Obviously, you are almost COMPLETELY UNINFORMED about things that you blindly blather on as an old woman drinking tea does to her cronies. You have caused much trouble, and a formal apology to Rossi is certainly due at this time!

          • JedRothwell

            Yes, I am completely uniformed about politics, rumor and gossip. I have only read scientific papers. Unfortunately, Rossi never published any, so I do not know much about his work. I read Penon’s 2012 paper. I did not think much of it. It had no calibration and huge error margins which could easily have been reduced.

          • Roger Bird

            I once had a very close friend who was a ‘C’ programming language guru for Oracle. He worked in Emeryville, California, at Oracle for many years. Not Silly Con Valley. He was so “guru-ish” that he could get away with growing his ponytail down to his waist. I asked him once about the ‘C++’ programming language, and he did not know what I was talking about, really. People get into what they are into so thoroughly sometimes that they are oblivious to other things. In fact, we are all like that, but our mental arenas are not always so well defined as my friend at Oracle.

            Jed, your expertise is just exactly what we need around here. I certainly am not going to read in depth and detail scientific papers.

          • Yet despite being ‘uniformed about politics, rumor and gossip’ you issue unfounded remarks that are potentially damaging to both Rossi and Penon on the basis of a one-sided press release?

          • JedRothwell

            Well, I agree Rossi’s press release was one-sided and it hurt his reputation, but my negative views of Rossi are based on his poorly done experiments and unverified claims, not his press releases or his blog. Also, I doubt that he is generating enough steam for 100 dry cleaning stores, and the steam is being used by a chemical distributor in a small warehouse. That seems implausible. To me, that is a failed reality check. But you never know.

          • Actually I was referring to IH’s press release.

            As to the doubt you express about the ‘chemical factory’ story, I have to say that I agree with you, and I posted a comment to that effect a little earlier in this thread. It is, as you say, highly implausible for a number of reasons.

          • Jed’s reply and my further response seem to have gone missing here for some reason.

          • wizkid

            You are uniformed! I agree, and yes you spread unsubstantiated rumor and gossip! You don’t seem to be able to read, or you only read the numbers on your paycheck. Your error margins are HUGE and could be reduced dramatically, I agree with that too! You do not honor the opinion of Nobel Laureates, and argue with the validity of peer reviewed reports posted at Cornell University. You seem believe that you hold a PATENT on the truth, and thereby you deny all other PATENTS. Not to mention you are also uncomfortable with Elforsk’s opinions. “The Elforsk evaluation was conducted by Swedish and Italian researchers (Giuseppe Levi and Evelyn Foschi, University of Bologna, Torbjörn Hartman, Bo Höistad, Roland Pettersson and Lars Tegnér, Uppsala University and Hanno Essén, KTH) where the results were published in the report “Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device. ” The measurements indicated a heat which not only could be explained by conventional combustion.” You are smarter than all of these men, you say. WOW!

            You must be a very smart dude. I should bow down and worship both you and all companies that breach contracts and default on their bills. Including the banks that steal houses from common people, based on their education in aerospace sciences, because they can, and they thought it would be fun.

            Do you enjoy picking up peanuts on the street while you follow your organ grinder?

      • Gerald

        Furthermore, who was in control in Italia of garbage and making black money white in that era.. Rossi is hardened and has right of being cautious.

  • JedRothwell

    I meant that Rossi’s press release says there is 50 times input, and the I.H. press release says they were not able to “substantiate” the results. Surely a reactor that produces 50 times input would substantiate the claim!

    So Rossi is saying it worked, and I.H. is saying it did not. One of them has to be making a mistake. Who is right? I don’t know, but I trust the technical abilities of I.H. more than I trust Rossi’s. Rossi has made many big mistakes before.

    I am sure that I.H. experts wrote reports. I guess only Penon wrote the official ERV report. Anyway, the experts disagree.

    That’s all I meant. I was just pointing to the press releases. Sorry if I phrased it in a way that caused people to read more into it than that.

    • Andrew

      Penon isn’t Rossi! And vice versa. IH hired Penon twice(half with Rossi on the last).

      • Pweet

        Yes, but you would have to wonder why, of all the scientists and engineers in America, why would IH coincidentally pick Penon? a person who has had a previous relationship with Rossi.
        It was previously said how the ERV report was received would depend entirely on who the supposed customer was, where the test was conducted, and who the ERV was.
        Is was not at all reassuring to find the customer looks to be an arrangement set up by Rossi specifically to test the plant, and the ERV was a person who had a prior association with Mr. Rossi.
        It is quite possible IH was maneuvered into accepting both that customer and that ERV.
        Had the customer been a long standing industrial operation where the ecat was slotted in to a previously existing heat generating function, and the ERV was contracted from some long standing company which specialises in such things, the report would carry far more weight, Rossi’s postition would look far more believable and the position of IH would look far less believable.
        As it stands, that is not the case. The whole issue of the customer, the test site and the ERV looks tainted, or at least,does not preclude the possibility that it is.
        Why is it that every test and demonstration of the ecat has this same defect?

    • bachcole

      As far as their intentions and their honesty, frankly, I don’t trust either of them without confirmation from an independent source. I trust them to the extent that they are not getting along and that there is a big problem (barring the scenario that they are both working together to get attention or a court case). I accept the 2013 and 2014 independent tests and the fact they I.H. seems to have believed Rossi for quite some time. After that, it is all in the “uncertain” pile.

      • JedRothwell

        Why not put aside discussions of intention and honest for now, and take the two press releases at face value? One says there was 50 times input. The other says they could not substantiate the effect. One has to be right, and other wrong. That’s all I am saying.

        We cannot judge which is right until we see the report.

        Let us assume it is an honest, unintentional mistake.

        I said it is my impression that I.H. is better at calorimetry. That’s just an impression, not scientific data. I could be wrong. You should not put much faith in my impressions. I do not ask you to. Feel free to ignore it.

        • Bob Tivnan

          “Let us assume it is an honest, unintentional mistake”. I would like to believe this scenario, but the discrepancy is far too great for this to be realistic. We are left with the unfortunate but more probable option- someone is lying. We simply do not have enough information at this point to say definitively, but one thing is certain. It can’t be both parties. I’m leaning towards IH as the villain in this saga based on their payment to Rossi in 2013 for the 24 hour test (presumably successful) and subsequent deals with Woodford and the Chinese promoting Rossi. If Rossi is lying, then it suggests that he duped IH from the outset making IH grossly incompetent. This is hard for me to believe given the enormous investment and stakeholders they have created. So, I disagree with the premise that someone is simply making an honest mistake.

          • bachcole

            Your ideas are compelling. Although I suppose that both parties could be exaggerating greatly just to make their case. Remember that I.H. said the test did not substantiate; substantiate what? Perhaps they are including the over-all cost or the reliability or whatever, and Rossi is exaggerating the COP. I.H. could be lying just to steal the secrets and not pay $89 million.

            And it is possible for both parties to be lying.

          • clovis ray

            hoooold on i need another bowl of popcorn, be right back,

          • billH

            It could be as simple as IH not having made any money from the leasing of the test plant i.e, they spent much more than $365K on overtime, repairs and modifications, and hence, even though it works they can’t make money from it. Then what they weren’t able to substantiate would be the economics.

          • clovis ray

            yep,

        • menos50

          Why would you assume that IH who didn’t exist before 2012 ( I had said 2013 in error previously) is better at calorimetry? As far as we know publicly, they have no real staff. Why assume an honest mistake when $89 million is at stake, that IH was never able to raise ? If it quacks like a Duck???

        • Omega Z

          Jed,

          Your mistake was making statements with only a few facts.
          What I read was COP>50 for periods of time.
          Without the report, that can not be put into context and has little importance. How much time was COP>1 and everything in between.

          We also don’t know from the contract what each party expected. It could be Rossi handed over a model T that needs much work to be a product and Darden was expecting a Formula 1 ready to put into production.

    • Dms

      What you have said makes sense to me. We simply can’t discount industrial heat and Rossi seems to be a lot of talk with few results that we can prove. Only time will tell but I think perceptions on this blog may change when IH releases their court documents

    • Of course the IH “experts” disagree. $89M disagree… What use are they otherwise?

      • Alex Fenrick

        If they were able to substantiate the claim then this deal would be worth WAY more than $89million to IH….it would make no sense for them to drop the ball at this point if it DOES work. It makes way more sense that they do not want to pay due to lack of proof of operation or as everyone is so concerned about the exact wording…”substantiate the claim”

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          Can Industrial heat does not have time to collect the necessary sum ?

      • JedRothwell

        Well, I suppose if the experts had agreed, I.H. would have happily paid the money. They want working cold fusion reactors, after all. That’s what they say. I have no reason to doubt them.

        Anyway, I am just telling you where I go the information: from the press releases. Take it or leave it. If you don’t like press releases, or you do not believe them, I have nothing more to offer.

      • menos50

        IH was never able to raise the $89 million, they didn’t have the money to pay the deal… so they naturally claim it didn’t work so they don’t have to pay….they got 50 million from Woodford in England, that’s all.

        The Customer just bought 3 more 1MW systems…what does that say about whether it works or not?

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          Well. Even i believe the plant works. What we have about the customer are only Rossi’s words.

          We just need to see a photograph of one of the new plants being assembled sent by Rossi or something similar to know that the plants are really being built.

        • Pweet

          Nothing until it can be proven they really did buy them.
          And even then, not a lot until it can be proven they actually work.

          What did selling millions of dollars worth of non functional thermoelectric converters to the DOD say about anything other than Mr. Rossi is an excellent salesman?
          Inoperable junk is bought and sold every day. This fact does not make it functional.

          • menos50

            Hey Pweet…. do you have any ” facta non verba” That the system DOD bought didn’t work??? Can we see the data?

            I guess that fact that you cannot prove it doesn’t work makes your story just as suspicious as you claim others are….

            Edison made 2,000 light bulbs that didn’t work….others had not made any either that would work commercially, but Edison was way ahead and his bulb made it….

            Rossi has been working on this in earnest longer than anyone else, so maybe he is just a tad ahead of the others…

            PS: Hey Pweet, do you ever look at your electric bill to check for changes from time to time? Well, I’ll bet that if you were using MW of electricity in your operation, you would check your bill… I’ll bet that the “Customer” checked his too, and if the E-Cat didn’t work I think he would know it!

    • menos50

      Why would you trust IH, they didn’t exist before 2013… they have no track record whatsoever. They are a shell company set up by the parent investment firm.

      • JedRothwell

        Well, I have some difficulty trusting Rossi. He does controversial things. He nearly blew up some nice, straight arrow engineers from NASA. That would have been a shame!

        NASA engineers are my kind of people.

        I get a good impression from I.H. Really, that’s all I can say. I don’t know anything about their business.

        • menos50

          Where did you read this, and how are you knowledgeable about NASA Engineers? My dealings with NASA people have been less than amazing.

          PS: Good impressions are not terribly factual nor are they admissible in court.

          • JedRothwell

            I spent a couple of days with the NASA people at the Williamsburg conference.

            I have nothing to do with any court case. Impressions are what they are, and better than nothing.

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          NASA engineers is Bushnell and Zavodny?

          • JedRothwell

            No, Mike Nelson and some others. Great people!

        • clovis ray

          Hi, Jed.
          Fascinating, story about the blowing up some nasa eng.
          Would you kindly elaborate more on this subject, hadn’t heard that story, please.

        • Eyedoc

          What !!? ‘blew up’ ? again with wild accusations…..please completely explain this allegation ..time, place, persons should all be included . Thank you in advance

          • JedRothwell

            Nothing blew up. I said he nearly blew up the NASA people, on Sept. 6, 2011. It is not an allegation. It is common knowledge. They discussed it in detail at the Williamsburg conference and many other times. I am surprised you don’t know about it. Even Krivit reported this accurately, although not in much detail:

            http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2012/Report-4-Rossis-NASA-Test-Fails-to-Launch.shtml

            The reactor outlet hose was plugged up. Rossi kept insisting there was fluid flowing through. Finally, Jim Dunn pulled off the outlet hose, held his hand in front of the reactor, and said “Andrea, NOTHING IS COMING OUT!” Rossi still insisted it was working. The temperature was rising. The reactor was wrapped in insulation and steam was starting to come out from under it, and from the seams.

            Jim asked, “what pressure is your relief valve set for?” Pause. No answer. It became clear there was no relief valve under the insulation. The crowd left the room in a hurry. When they later opened the reactor the room was filled with steam.

            They offered to come back but Rossi refused to try again. He demanded payment, and he got hopping mad when they said they had to see a valid test first.

            Rossi is sloppy and he does dangerous things, with half-assed instruments and plumbing.

          • bachcole

            You are going to catch hell with that remark from people who put Rossi on a pedestal. Even Newton had a $hitty personality. But you won’t catch hell from me.

            But I would caution you that “Rossi is sometimes sloppy and he does . . . . ” would have been more honest (since we don’t know everything that Rossi does) and diplomatic. (:->)

      • bachcole

        I.H. is code for Tom Darden, Vaughn, et. al. They have been around for decades.

      • Michael W Wolf

        A parent company who was slapped by the SEC.

    • menos50

      Apples and oranges and misrepresentations…. IH claims not to have been able it make it work in its press release after the lawsuit was filed, but… in their demonstrations to Woodford and others they claim to have demonstrated it working plus they paid for the demonstrations of function along the way to the one year testing… it worked, but when it comes time to pay money they don’t have, now it doesn’t work???? yeah sure I believe that…

      Oh, BTW…Rossi’s mistakes…. his other invention, fuel from garbage, worked just fine… they changed the rules and determined after the fact that his product was not “zoned ” for his locale and they shut him down and confiscated his product. Then when he couldn’t sell his product his loans went belly up and that is what he got in trouble for… not that his process wasn’t any good!

      • JedRothwell

        I have never heard of Woodford and I have no idea what you are talking about, so I cannot comment.

        • hmmm why am I not surprised?

          You need to spend more time here Jed. Or at least at my LENR chat room where I post all the LENR highlights from this and other sites.

          It really helps you connect the dots if you collect them up first.

          http://www.chatwing.com/LENRChat

          • bachcole

            Do not be disrespect to JedRothwell. He is a major contributor to LENR thought and thinks clearly. I am happy that he is now becoming aware of Woodford.

          • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

            Yes, everyone may make mistakes sometimes. Even Rossi 🙂

          • A high profile commenter who doesn’t take the time to acquaint himself/herself with the facts before commenting negatively is doing at least as much damage to the truth as any paid disinformation troll. Personally I have lost respect for Jed, despite his contribution to coverage of LENR. He has not only fallen seriously behind the information curve and therefore IMO should not be offering uninformed opinion, but has made some completely unjustified comments about Rossi which include insulting language – all supposedly on the basis of one word (‘substantiate’) in an obviously partisan press statement by IH.

          • Roger Bird

            I am often uninformed about stuff, and I don’t get that kind of attack. He is high profile because people put him on a pedestal.

          • JedRothwell

            A pedestal?!? Clearly, you have not worked with academic scientists and professors. Do you know what I do? I copy edit their papers. I fix their spelling, correct the unit abbreviations, and I recommend revisions to transmogrify incomprehensible academese into English. In payment for that they complain, kvetch, rail against me and treat me like an undergraduate who is late turning in an assignment. If this is a pedestal I would hate to see abuse.

          • Roger Bird

            So I guess that you can endure some of the jerks around here who think that not knowing about Woodford makes you a jerk.

            Everyone has their own people who are on pedestals. It seems that you weren’t on the pedestals of your fellow scientists. But around here, you have been on a pedestal.

          • JedRothwell

            Undeserving, no doubt. People should read my papers. That will disillusion them.

          • A sub-editor for a scientific journal? That was my job for a couple of years, too – definitely not very rewarding work. In my case that was down to the editor whose entire job I did for a quarter of her pay, and who then whinged about my decisions – rather than the academic contributors whose work I hacked about.

          • winebuff67

            Jed there are a lot of haters right now purely from frustration and lack of knowing what is going on. I look forward to your unbiased analysis of the report not tidbits you are spoon fed. U seem confident that the test is less than impressive. But I would rather see u wait till the facts are out to make comment on the science which u are extremely quallified I am hoping u can break down this report for people like me who don’t understand the methods.Otherwise you’ll be considered a shill for IH.

          • JedRothwell

            I certainly agree that we need to see the report or reports before we can be sure. I hope I have made it clear that I judging this by looking at previous work by Rossi and Penon, and by I.H. Of course I could be wrong in my evaluation of previous work. Or, maybe this time Rossi did a better job than I.H. I doubt it, but you never know.

            I think that looking at previous work is better than speculating about motives. I hope the reports are definitive. I also hope they are published. The reports appear to be tangled in the lawsuit. Who knows how long that will take.

          • Mats002

            Jed, what do you think about other people than Rossi who claim NiH excess heat at will? See https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1275-me356-Reactor-parameters/?pageNo=36

            For us here at ECW, me356 is a skilled and open scientist.

          • JedRothwell

            The nickel studies are frustrating! There have been several, going back to Mills and Thermacore in 1994, and Piantelli.

            http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GernertNnascenthyd.pdf

            Nickel seems to work, and then not work. Srinivasan went to great lengths to replicate at SRI, but he failed. Others tried, and failed. There are nowhere near as many replications as there are for Pd-D. Is that because few people have tried, or because it is difficult? Or because it is impossible? It is hard to say.

            I don’t know what to make of it, but it is discouraging.

            Arata pioneered the use of nanoparticle Pd. It seems to work well, presumably because of the tremendous increase in surface area. Rossi introduced nanoparticle Ni. It seems like a good idea. Some of Rossi’s tests seem positive to me, especially the first Levi tests. But the second Levi test at Lugano was poorly done and inconclusive. I.H., which participated, finally decided that Lugano and the other tests they took part in did not “substantiate” the claims. That’s where things stand.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t trust IH, They have said so little and have some contradictions. Serious contradictions. But you aren’t the only one discouraged.

          • Michael W Wolf

            The SEC has ruled against Cherokee, be careful who you back. They can turn out to be the snake Rossi says they are. For all that Rossi has said, no one has really cracked his shell yet.

          • Mats002

            Welcome to the peanut gallery Jed.

          • Michael W Wolf

            The good, the bad, and the ugly. But all in all you guys here are alright. This is not an echo chamber for sure. And that is a good thing, most of the time. 🙂

          • Michael W Wolf

            cmon Jed, you brought this on yourself. Suck it up and move on. You should make an apology, but don’t have to. But this sounds like what you do to Rossi. Bring proof or tamp it down.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t like Jed’s tone, usually. A man can make a mistake because of bias. We should only chase people away if it is a pattern. But he definitely deserves the radar that will be put up on his negative comments. If he is sincere, he will make it through this. We all want to learn, even if it is from someone who makes us angry.

        • menos50

          Well Jed, I don’t want to cast aspersions, but it is factually obvious you have not done much reading here or anywhere else about this matter…

          http://ecat.org/tag/industrial-heat-llc/ Woodford is openly mentioned here and several other places .

          • JedRothwell

            You are right. I have read nothing at all about this. I am interested in science, not gossip, politics or other people’s business.

          • Roger Bird

            Jed, knowing about Woodford is what we might call soft evidence. I am not a scientist, yet it was soft evidence that drew me to LENR and it was somewhat harder evidence that convinced me that it was real. If I had to depend solely on scientific evidence, I would be one of those in the future who would be surprised that The Home Depot was selling E-Cats.

          • menos50

            Well , Jed, You know that all things revolve around money… you can have very little science without the money to fund it, and that relates to the reality that he who pays the money usually determines what science is funded, or may be those that fail to fund in a contract are in deep doo doo ! The old saying , “Follow the Money”, when pursued usually gives real answers that most people miss when evaluating a scenario.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well stop gossiping Jed.

        • wizkid

          When you say you have never heard of Woodford, your statement places your your intelligence below a cop of 1. Obviously, you are almost COMPLETELY UNINFORMED about things that you blindly blather on as an old woman drinking tea does to her cronies. You have caused much trouble, and a formal apology to Rossi is certainly due at this time!

          • Roger Bird

            wizkid, again I fine myself defending someone who really does not need defending. Perhaps I should defend you for being so rude and confusing intelligence with possessing information. Please refrain from exercising your ego and wrath at a good man who has been a major and well respected contributor to LENR thought for many years. His not knowing about Woodford is not as blame worthy as your rudeness and epistemological confusion. If he doesn’t know about Woodford, tell him. I don’t want him driven away from here because of people’s childishness.

          • JedRothwell

            Yes, I am completely uniformed about politics, rumor and gossip. I have only read scientific papers. Unfortunately, Rossi never published any, so I do not know much about his work. I read Penon’s 2012 paper. I did not think much of it. It had no calibration and huge error margins which could easily have been reduced.

          • Roger Bird

            I once had a very close friend who was a ‘C’ programming language guru for Oracle. He worked in Emeryville, California, at Oracle for many years. Not Silly Con Valley. He was so “guru-ish” that he could get away with growing his ponytail down to his waist. I asked him once about the ‘C++’ programming language, and he did not know what I was talking about, really. People get into what they are into so thoroughly sometimes that they are oblivious to other things. In fact, we are all like that, but our mental arenas are not always so well defined as my friend at Oracle.

            Jed, your expertise is just exactly what we need around here. I certainly am not going to read in depth and detail scientific papers.

          • Yet despite being ‘uniformed about politics, rumor and gossip’ you issue unfounded remarks that are potentially damaging to both Rossi and Penon on the basis of a one-sided press release?

          • JedRothwell

            Well, I agree Rossi’s press release was one-sided and it hurt his reputation, but my negative views of Rossi are based on his poorly done experiments and unverified claims, not his press releases or his blog. Also, I doubt that he is generating enough steam for 100 dry cleaning stores, and the steam is being used by a chemical distributor in a small warehouse. That seems implausible. To me, that is a failed reality check. But you never know.

          • I was of course referring to IH’s press release.

            As to the doubt you express about the ‘chemical factory’ story, I have to say that I agree with your reservations, and I posted a comment to the same effect earlier in this thread. As you say, it seems highly implausible for a number of reasons, and doesn’t stand up well to critical analysis.

          • Deleted by author

          • wizkid

            You are uniformed! I agree, and yes you spread unsubstantiated rumor and gossip! You don’t seem to be able to read, or you only read the numbers on your paycheck. Your error margins are HUGE and could be reduced dramatically, I agree with that too! You do not honor the opinion of Nobel Laureates, and argue with the validity of peer reviewed reports posted at Cornell University. You seem believe that you hold a PATENT on the truth, and thereby you deny all other PATENTS. Not to mention you are also uncomfortable with Elforsk’s opinions. “The Elforsk evaluation was conducted by Swedish and Italian researchers (Giuseppe Levi and Evelyn Foschi, University of Bologna, Torbjörn Hartman, Bo Höistad, Roland Pettersson and Lars Tegnér, Uppsala University and Hanno Essén, KTH) where the results were published in the report “Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device. ” The measurements indicated a heat which not only could be explained by conventional combustion.” You are smarter than all of these men, you say. WOW!

            You must be a very smart dude. I should bow down and worship both you and all companies that breach contracts and default on their bills. Including the banks that steal houses from common people, based on their education in aerospace sciences, because they can, and they thought it would be fun.

            Do you enjoy picking up peanuts on the street while you follow your organ grinder?

          • glad this made it through moderation.

      • bachcole

        Nice.

      • Gerald

        Furthermore, who was in control in Italia of garbage and making black money white in that era.. Rossi is hardened and has right of being cautious.

    • Jerry Soloman

      Jed you have missed the real motives here, it’s about control and who will share the wealth, we seen your post on vortex, it’s clear what you said.

  • JedRothwell

    Why not put aside discussions of intention and honest for now, and take the two press releases at face value? One says there was 50 times input. The other says they could not substantiate the effect. One has to be right, and other wrong. That’s all I am saying.

    We cannot judge which is right until we see the report.

    Let us assume it is an honest, unintentional mistake.

    I said it is my impression that I.H. is better at calorimetry. That’s just an impression, not scientific data. I could be wrong. You should not put much faith in my impressions. I do not ask you to. Feel free to ignore it.

    • Bob Tivnan

      “Let us assume it is an honest, unintentional mistake”. I would like to believe this scenario, but the discrepancy is far too great for this to be realistic. We are left with the unfortunate but more probable option- someone is lying. We simply do not have enough information at this point to say definitively, but one thing is certain. It can’t be both parties. I’m leaning towards IH as the villain in this saga based on their payment to Rossi in 2013 for the 24 hour test (presumably successful) and subsequent deals with Woodford and the Chinese promoting Rossi. If Rossi is lying, then it suggests that he duped IH from the outset making IH grossly incompetent. This is hard for me to believe given the enormous investment and stakeholders they have created. So, I disagree with the premise that someone is simply making an honest mistake.

    • menos50

      Why would you assume that IH who didn’t exist before 2012 ( I had said 2013 in error previously) is better at calorimetry? As far as we know publicly, they have no real staff. Why assume an honest mistake when $89 million is at stake, that IH was never able to raise ? If it quacks like a Duck???

    • Omega Z

      Jed,

      Your mistake was making statements with only a few facts.
      What I read was COP>50 for periods of time.
      Without the report, that can not be put into context and has little importance. How much time was COP>1 and everything in between.

      We also don’t know from the contract what each party expected. It could be Rossi handed over a model T that needs much work to be a product and Darden was expecting a Formula 1 ready to put into production.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      It was a message that McKubre tested dry Brillouin reactor. The result is a cop in the area 4.

  • Engineer48

    IH’s so far unsupported claims seems to be done and dusted:

    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/#comment-4593

    Mats Lewan wrote:
    Ok, so people I have talked to, who visited the plant, got a presentation from someone supposedly being the ‘Director of Engineering’ at JM Products Inc, that supposedly produced metal sponges for catalytic applications.

    The Director of Engineering told them that they were very satisfied since the yield per amount of electric energy consumed was significantly larger than in the company’s other production sites, maybe 10x or 20x (figure uncertain).

    Someone got a glimpse though a door and saw what seemed to be production activity.

    Only that T Darden told people I have talked to that the COP was about one and that there was no production in the customer’s factory.

    So truth seems to have many different faces here.”

  • Jerry Soloman

    Jed Rothwell if you are speaking with Industrial heat, they also have a copy of the report why don’t they show you a copy before you start making wild accusations?

  • Jerry Soloman

    Jed Rothwell if you are speaking with Industrial heat, they also have a copy of the report why don’t they show you a copy before you start making wild accusations?

  • LarryJ

    IH made the 1 MW test plant that had a cop of 50. They built the prototype and they can and will build more of them. Their technical/scientific team is Brillouin and they are ready to compete with Leonardo. They don’t care about the ERV report. It has done its job. They know the device works. The patent/licensing fight will go on in the background for many years. Now they need to try and beat Leonardo to the market and get market share.

  • LarryJ

    I see no correlation between those two points. The ERV report is no longer necessary because its purpose was to validate the technology which it now has done. We all know the main finding. Read Rossi’s legal statement of claim.The report was never intended to prove the technology to the public, that is not possible. The ERV’s report was a contractual obligation between Leonardo and IH which was fulfilled.

    Rossi has said he intends to announce his quarkx (F8) at a press conference in Sweden and do an interview at Mats Lewan’s Symposium. Mats has said he wanted to know the results of the ERV’s test before he went ahead with the Symposium. Now that he knows the result I expect the Symposium will go ahead, but if it doesn’t it won’t be Rossi’s fault and I expect Rossi would still hold his press conference. He has already stated that his press conference was not going to be a Symposium event.

    Your comment sounds like you think Rossi is intentionally withholding the ERV report and his “next” outrageous move will be to bail on Mats’ symposium. I would give odds against your prediction.

  • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

    Yes, everyone may make mistakes sometimes. Even Rossi 🙂

  • Hi all

    It appears Jed misunderstood and has withdrawn his comments on this matter.

    From others speculation it may have been Michael McKubre who was the source of Jed’s misunderstanding.

    Kind Regards walker

    • JedRothwell

      I did not exactly withdraw my comments. I knew there were several people evaluating the reactor. Three are listed in the lawsuit documents. I thought all three would submit reports, but I was mistaken. Only Penon is the official report writer.

      I know that I.H. does not agree with Penon’s conclusions because they told me so, when they asked me to upload their March 10 statement, which says they disagree with Rossi:

      “Embracing failure as well as success is important, because we learn from both. . . . [A]ny claims made about technologies in our portfolio should only be relied upon if affirmed by Industrial Heat and backed by reputable third parties who have verified our results in repeated experiments.”

      And their response to the lawsuit: “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

      Not able to “substantiate” means they think there is no significant heat. That’s what they said.

      Penon thinks there is heat; I.H. thinks there isn’t.

      I am not saying I know for sure I.H. is right, but in my opinion they are better at calorimetry, so I expect they are right. That’s my prediction. We’ll see, after the report or reports are published.

      Sometimes, experts disagree about whether results are significant. Levi et al. thought the Lugano results were significant, but other experts said they are not.

      • Ged wrote: “I know that I.H. does not agree with Penon’s conclusions because they told me so, when they asked me to upload their March 10 statement, which says they disagree with Rossi:”

        Prove it that they told you so. You haven’t done that yet.

        • JedRothwell

          Believe it or not, as you wish. Ask I.H. yourself.

          But this is silly —

          Why should I care whether you believe me or not?

          What else do you suppose they mean by “substantiate”?

          I am a little curious to hear from you how I might “prove” this. You could prove it yourself, I suppose, by asking I.H. Then I suppose other people would not believe you, which would be mildly funny.

  • Hi all

    It appears Jed misunderstood and has withdrawn his comments on this matter.

    From others speculation it may have been Michael McKubre who was the source of Jed’s misunderstanding.

    Kind Regards walker

    • Jerry Soloman

      Hi Ian, Thanks for clearing that up, i could not imagine Jed Rothwell flipping over like that.

      • JedRothwell

        Well, I did make a mistake. I thought the “ERV” meant the 3 people, not the one report by Penon.

    • JedRothwell

      I did not exactly withdraw my comments. I knew there were several people evaluating the reactor. Three are listed in the lawsuit documents. I thought all three would submit reports, but I was mistaken. Only Penon is the official report writer.

      I know that I.H. does not agree with Penon’s conclusions because they told me so, when they asked me to upload their March 10 statement, which says they disagree with Rossi:

      “Embracing failure as well as success is important, because we learn from both. . . . [A]ny claims made about technologies in our portfolio should only be relied upon if affirmed by Industrial Heat and backed by reputable third parties who have verified our results in repeated experiments.”

      And their response to the lawsuit: “Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.”

      Not able to “substantiate” means they think there is no significant heat. That’s what they said.

      Penon thinks there is heat; I.H. thinks there isn’t.

      I am not saying I know for sure I.H. is right, but in my opinion they are better at calorimetry, so I expect they are right. That’s my prediction. We’ll see, after the report or reports are published.

      Sometimes, experts disagree about whether results are significant. Levi et al. thought the Lugano results were significant, but other experts said they are not.

      • Ged wrote: “I know that I.H. does not agree with Penon’s conclusions because they told me so, when they asked me to upload their March 10 statement, which says they disagree with Rossi:”

        Prove it that they told you so. You haven’t done that yet.

        • JedRothwell

          Believe it or not, as you wish. Ask I.H. yourself.

          But this is silly —

          Why should I care whether you believe me?

          What else do you suppose they mean by “substantiate”?

          I am a little curious to hear from you how I might “prove” this. You could prove it yourself, I suppose, by asking I.H. Then I suppose other people would not believe you, which would be mildly funny.

          • Jed, you just wrote that they told you so when they sent you their March email. So take a screen shot of the email where they told you this. If all you got was what was publicly shared by Frank and Mats then they did NOT tell you this “I.H. does not agree with Penon’s conclusions” and you are making shit up and that matters a lot in this case.

            BTW, “substantiate” doesn’t me what you think it means. I think you jump to absurd conclusions because you dislike Rossi on grounds that has nothing to do with whether the ecat works or not.

          • Take a screen shot of the Email? Oh, I can do that – send me a copy of the Email and let me know what date you’d like to see on it. 🙂 And who you want it sent from!

      • bachcole

        That is a hell of a difference of opinion!

  • A high profile commenter who doesn’t take the time to acquaint himself/herself with the facts before commenting negatively is doing at least as much damage to the truth as a deliberate misinformation troll. Personally I have lost all respect for Jed, who has not only fallen seriously behind the curve, but is making completely unjustified comments which include insulting language..

    • Michael W Wolf

      I don’t like Jed’s tone, usually. A man can make a mistake because of bias. We should only chase people away if it is a pattern. But he definitely deserves the radar that will be put up on his negative comments. If he is sincere, he will make it through this. We all want to learn, even if it is from someone who makes us angry.

  • Fedir Mykhaylov

    Can Industrial heat does not have time to collect the necessary sum ?

  • JedRothwell

    A pedestal?!? Clearly, you have not worked with academic scientists and professors. Do you know what I do? I copy edit their papers. I fix their spelling, correct the unit abbreviations, and I recommend revisions to transmogrify incomprehensible academese into English. In payment for that they complain, kvetch, rail against me and treat me like an undergraduate who is late turning in an assignment. If this is a pedestal I would hate to see abuse.

    • A sub-editor for a science journal? I did that for a couple of years – definitely not very rewarding work. In my case that was down to the editor whose job I did for a quarter of her pay, rather than the academics whose work I hacked about.

    • winebuff67

      Jed there are a lot of haters right now purely from frustration and lack of knowing what is going on. I look forward to your unbiased analysis of the report not tidbits you are spoon fed. U seem confident that the test is less than impressive. But I would rather see u wait till the facts are out to make comment on the science which u are extremely quallified I am hoping u can break down this report for people like me who don’t understand the methods.Otherwise you’ll be considered a shill for IH.

      • JedRothwell

        I certainly agree that we need to see the report or reports before we can be sure. I hope I have made it clear that I judging this by looking at previous work by Rossi and Penon, and by I.H. Of course I could be wrong in my evaluation of previous work. Or, maybe this time Rossi did a better job than I.H. I doubt it, but you never know.

        I think that looking at previous work is better than speculating about motives. I hope the reports are definitive. I also hope they are published. The reports appear to be tangled in the lawsuit. Who knows how long that will take.

        • Mats002

          Jed, what do you think about other people than Rossi who claim NiH excess heat at will? See https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1275-me356-Reactor-parameters/?pageNo=36

          For us here at ECW, me356 is a skilled and open scientist.

          • JedRothwell

            The nickel studies are frustrating! There have been several, going back to Mills and Thermacore in 1994, and Piantelli.

            http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GernertNnascenthyd.pdf

            Nickel seems to work, and then not work. Srinivasan went to great lengths to replicate at SRI, but he failed. Others tried, and failed. There are nowhere near as many replications as there are for Pd-D. Is that because few people have tried, or because it is difficult? Or because it is impossible? It is hard to say.

            I don’t know what to make of it, but it is discouraging.

            Arata pioneered the use of nanoparticle Pd. It seems to work well, presumably because of the tremendous increase in surface area. Rossi introduced nanoparticle Ni. It seems like a good idea. Some of Rossi’s tests seem positive to me, especially the first Levi tests. But the second Levi test at Lugano was poorly done and inconclusive. I.H., which participated, finally decided that Lugano and the other tests they took part in did not “substantiate” the claims. That’s where things stand.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t trust IH, They have said so little and have some contradictions. Serious contradictions. But you aren’t the only one discouraged.

        • Michael W Wolf

          The SEC has ruled against Cherokee, be careful who you back. They can turn out to be the snake Rossi says they are. For all that Rossi has said, no one has really cracked his shell yet.

    • Mats002

      Welcome to the peanut gallery Jed.

      • Michael W Wolf

        The good, the bad, and the ugly. But all in all you guys here are alright. This is not an echo chamber for sure. And that is a good thing, most of the time. 🙂

    • Michael W Wolf

      cmon Jed, you brought this on yourself. Suck it up and move on. You should make an apology, but don’t have to. But this sounds like what you do to Rossi. Bring proof or tamp it down.

  • Jerry Soloman

    .. interesting to read that McKubre is effectively an insider to IH. and He/his team probably convinced IH that Rossi’s ecat does not work, should be interesting to hear this out in court hearings.

    ** The $ clock started for IH day 366 – in lost sales of ecats x term of contract.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      It was a message that McKubre tested dry Brillouin reactor. The result is a cop in the area 4.

  • JedRothwell

    Undeserving, no doubt. People should read my papers. That will disillusion them.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    And by the way, “Rossi is an idiot,” Forsley said. And yet: “It’s entirely possible—I think it’s highly improbable—that he actually managed to scale up Piantelli’s work,” Forsley said. “It’s possible.”
    http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/andrea-rossis-black-box

    Did Piantelli have LiAlH4 in his reactor?

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      Apparently Russia originally used pure lithium. Later began to add lithium aluminum hydride as the hydrogen source.

      • Fedir Mykhaylov

        Sorry Rossi

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Or is it sorry Piantelli?

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            Piantelli recognized pioneer LENR reactions Ni-H. Why feel sorry for him?
            — реклама ———————————————————– Поторопись зарегистрировать самый короткий почтовый адрес @i.ua http://mail.i.ua/reg – и получи 1Gb для хранения писем

      • Pweet

        I agree. He had a hydrogen bottle connected to the reactor via a tap which he turned off prior to starting the reactor. He explained how little hydrogen was required to charge the reactor with sufficient hydrogen the support the reaction.
        I also remember someone on his JONP recommending using aluminium hydride as a safe source of hydrogen and soon after, the hydrogen bottle disappeared from the scene.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      I was just thinking that Rossi was the first to use LiAlH4
      and that the primary reaction is the following:

      Li(7) + p > Be(8)* > 2 He(4) 17,3 MeV.

      http://news.coinupdate.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ernest-walton-silver-coin.jpg

      The MeV alphas, He(4) from the classical lithium reaction we’ve been talking about could be used to initiate this other well known classical transmutation of aluminum into silicon and a MeV proton.

      Al(27) + He(4) > Si(30) + H(1) 2.3722 MeV

      Then this MeV proton, H(1) could be used to trigger the original lithium,
      Li(7) to helium He(4) reaction.

      http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/03/17/andrea-rampardo-private-ukrainian-lab-replicated-parkhomov-detected-neutrons/comment-page-1/#comment-1912817362

      Therefore, it would be quite different from Piantelli’s
      hydrogen nickel reaction.

  • Wholewitt

    If an output was really 50x the input on a normal macro scale then there would be no dispute. You can’t look at a bright spot in the sky and argue it is the moon when it’s the sun. I think the statement “He also has said that he set up his own measurement system, using the
    exact same meters as the ERV, and putting them in series with those of
    the ERV” should say in parallel. Putting instruments in series will usually cause large errors, you would not put two DVMs in series for example, the same for thermocouples.

    • Pweet

      It depends on what you are measuring. Meters to measure power and current would have to be in series but voltage measurements are done in parallel.
      Modern metering now has very small insertion losses so inserting such things in series or parallel is not a big issue providing the equipment is chosen suitable for the scale of what is being measured.
      Other parameters such as temperatures and flow rates would be done by installing separate probes, flow rate sensors and transducers etc.

      Really, there was no need to specify how they were set up other than to say the telemetry was duplicated and the readings were either the same or not the same. IH says they were not the same. That will be the case they have to prove in court, if it gets that far. I have a feeling it wont. I think Mr. Rossi will realise he is on a hiding to nowhere if he goes that far, so after he has got all the mileage out of publicly justifying his position on his blog for six months or so he will drop the case just before it goes to court, probably on the basis of him not having time for arguing with snakes and clowns etc. Too busy bringing the ecat X to market, which will of course be almost ready for massive production.

      One other thing, I think Rossi is probably telling the truth when he says IH did not dispute the results during the period of the test. I have wondered why that might be because if it was me, I probably would have said straight off that ‘there seemed to be a significant error in the readings’ and ‘why was that?’
      There are a few possibilities, and I think the most likely one is, they had decided not to draw attention to the difference on the basis that telling Rossi they knew something was wrong would only alert him to the fact that another tactic was required, and that could be a tactic they might not find out about, in which case they would then have to come up with the later payment of 89 million. If they just let it slide it provided a reasonably safe exit for them at the end of the test period should they not want to continue for any reason.
      And yes, I know, that is just speculation but until the dirty laundry is hung out in public that’s about all anyone can do.
      At this point, all we have for sure is that IH say their results did not agree with those obtained by Mr. Rossi and the official verification person.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Actually, the reading Rossi obtained and the reading of the ERV may MOST certainly have agreed.

        Keep in mind the semantics here. Rossi is not stating the COP is 50. What he is saying the ERV report shows a COP of 50 (a true statement).

        Also, Rossi states that if he placed his measuring meters beside the ERV meters, then again we see a COP of 50 (again, likely a true statement).

        In the above, Rossi at any given point in time has NOT admitted or stated the COP is 50, but only ERV stated so, and that if Rossi duplicates the ERV testing, then again we see a COP of 50.

        All the above are at this point 100% true statements. On the other hand, if an additional power source is being fed into the container, then ALL OF THE above statements are STILL 100% true!

        The simple matter is that IH does not believe the ERV report. We don’t know the reasons for this, but we know that’s their position right now. However, this disbelief DOES NOT mean that the ERV and Rossi saw different COP’s when Rossi duplicated the ERV method of measuring!

        So NONE of the above eliminates or disproves that additional power sources and input don’t exist for the plant.

        One has to keep in mind that stating the ERV sees a COP of 50, and Rossi doing the same measuring results in the same output STILL does not mean that the plant has a COP of 50, but only that the parties measuring the COP the same way gives the same results!

        This ALSO MEANS that Rossi NEVER claimed a COP of 50 at any time (NEVER EVER!!). I simply cannot stress this point enough.

        So the ERV sees a cop of 50, and that when Rossi does the same measuring as the ERV, then again was a COP of 50. Again, NEVER any point in time has Rossi stated or claimed a COP of 50! He ONLY stating that WHEN measuring the SAME way as the ERV, then we see the same result.

        So the assumption that the ERV measured 50 and Rossi when doing the same also sees a COP of 50 does not mean there is disagreement between the ERV results and how they measured.

        However, this does mean never at any point in time has Rossi public stated that the ecat has a COP of 50+ but he ONLY confirms that WHEN he measuring like the ERV, the results are the same as the ERV.

        Even if Rossi has full knowledge of additional power inputs to the plant, every single one of the above statements are still 100% true.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • bachcole

          “Rossi states that if he placed his measuring meters beside the ERV meters” Ah, see. That’s how he manipulates the data. He has special machines that can cause other machines to mis-measure. My cousin told me this, so it must be true.

    • DrD

      I hope not. They might have a COP of only 25 if their current mearuements were parallel. I’m sure they couldn’t be so amateurish.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      Comments below have discussed the other measurements can be made in series/parallel. Thermocouples can be used in series if you know the junction temperature of each meter, or if each meter can read the other meter’s junction voltage. However, a simple thermocouple input on a DMM has no such compensation provisions.

      Thermopiles are essentially a number of thermocouples in series used to multiply the tiny voltages into a usable value.

  • Roland

    I’m sure that’s struck others, judging from the commentary, that Jed Rothwell hasn’t contributed an original thought to the development of LENR; Jed Rothwell is a librarian with a thinly disguised envy of those who create the contents of his fastidious archives.

    When a rival publisher opened the opportunity to slag a best selling, but oh so suspect, author our hero jumped at the bait with, apparently, genuine avidity. The publisher read him like a book (or a useful idiot to stretch a metaphor) by allowing our hero to, briefly, rub shoulders with his ‘betters’ a in a landscape far, far beyond the insular comforts of his dusty shelves where he, blindly, committed to a course towards a very public undressing to satisfy a pressing need to humble a certain author.

    Now, his arrow fired and his humiliation complete, he still fails to understand how childishly simple it is to manipulate his glaringly obvious animus’s, on command, to to achieve goals our hero still professes not to comprehend.

    Still, after everything, utterly certain that the pernicious author should find no place in a, proper, library, our hero stands on guard for thee and me.

    • bachcole

      Why is it necessary to be unnecessarily harsh towards others?

      • Roland

        Stupidity sometimes has vast consequences.

  • Pweet

    It depends on what you are measuring. Meters to measure power and current would have to be in series but voltage measurements are done in parallel.
    Modern metering now has very small insertion losses so inserting such things in series or parallel is not a big issue providing the equipment is chosen suitable for the scale of what is being measured.
    Other parameters such as temperatures and flow rates would be done by installing separate probes, flow rate sensors and transducers etc.

    Really, there was no need to specify how they were set up other than to say the telemetry was duplicated and the readings were either the same or not the same. IH says they were not the same. That will be the case they have to prove in court, if it gets that far. I have a feeling it wont. I think Mr. Rossi will realise he is on a hiding to nowhere if he goes that far, so after he has got all the mileage out of publicly justifying his position on his blog for six months or so he will drop the case just before it goes to court, probably on the basis of him not having time for arguing with snakes and clowns etc. Too busy bringing the ecat X to market, which will of course be almost ready for massive production.

    One other thing, I think Rossi is probably telling the truth when he says IH did not dispute the results during the period of the test. I have wondered why that might be because if it was me, I probably would have said straight off that ‘there seemed to be a significant error in the readings’ and ‘why was that?’
    There are a few possibilities, and I think the most likely one is, they had decided not to draw attention to the difference on the basis that telling Rossi they knew something was wrong would only alert him to the fact that another tactic was required, and that could be a tactic they might not find out about, in which case they would then have to come up with the later payment of 89 million. If they just let it slide it provided a reasonably safe exit for them at the end of the test period should they not want to continue for any reason.
    And yes, I know, that is just speculation but until the dirty laundry is hung out in public that’s about all anyone can do.
    At this point, all we have for sure is that IH say their results did not agree with those obtained by Mr. Rossi and the official verification person.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Actually, the reading Rossi obtained and the reading of the ERV may MOST certainly have agreed.

      Keep in mind the semantics here. Rossi is not stating the COP is 50. What he is saying the ERV report shows a COP of 50 (a true statement).

      Also, Rossi states that if he placed his measuring meters beside the ERV meters, then again we see a COP of 50 (again, likely a true statement).

      In the above, Rossi at any given point in time has NOT admitted or stated the COP is 50, but only ERV stated so, and that if Rossi duplicates the ERV testing, then again we see a COP of 50.

      All the above are at this point 100% true statements. On the other hand, if an additional power source is being fed into the container, then ALL OF THE above statements are STILL 100% true!

      The simple matter is that IH does not believe the ERV report. We don’t know the reasons for this, but we know that’s their position right now. However, this disbelief DOES NOT mean that the ERV and Rossi saw different COP’s when Rossi duplicated the ERV method of measuring!

      So NONE of the above eliminates or disproves that additional power sources and input don’t exist for the plant.

      One has to keep in mind that stating the ERV sees a COP of 50, and Rossi doing the same measuring results in the same output STILL does not mean that the plant has a COP of 50, but only that the parties measuring the COP the same way gives the same results!

      This ALSO MEANS that Rossi NEVER claimed a COP of 50 at any time (NEVER EVER!!). I simply cannot stress this point enough.

      So the ERV sees a cop of 50, and that when Rossi does the same measuring as the ERV, then again was a COP of 50. Again, NEVER any point in time has Rossi stated or claimed a COP of 50! He ONLY stating that WHEN measuring the SAME way as the ERV, then we see the same result.

      So the assumption that the ERV measured 50 and Rossi when doing the same also sees a COP of 50 does not mean there is disagreement between the ERV results and how they measured.

      However, this does mean never at any point in time has Rossi public stated that the ecat has a COP of 50+ but he ONLY confirms that WHEN he measuring like the ERV, the results are the same as the ERV.

      Even if Rossi has full knowledge of additional power inputs to the plant, every single one of the above statements are still 100% true.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • bachcole

        “Rossi states that if he placed his measuring meters beside the ERV meters” Ah, see. That’s how he manipulates the data. He has special machines that can cause other machines to mis-measure. My cousin told me this, so it must be true.

  • Thomas Kaminski

    Comments below have discussed the other measurements can be made in series/parallel. Thermocouples can be used in series if you know the junction temperature of each meter, or if each meter can read the other meter’s junction voltage. However, a simple thermocouple input on a DMM has no such compensation provisions.

    Thermopiles are essentially a number of thermocouples in series used to multiply the tiny voltages into a usable value.

  • JedRothwell

    You responded 4 days before I posted the comment?!? You must have a time machine.