Rossi: 1MW Plant Customer Bought Three More Plants (AR: Installation in Approx 180 Days)

Bernie Koppenhofer commented to Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics that did not understand why Rossi could not persuade the customer of E-Cat plant used in the year-long test to come forward and report on the savings they had made from using the E-Cat.

Rossi responded:

Andrea Rossi
April 14, 2016 at 1:44 PM
Bernie Koppenhofer:
You are too intelligent not to understand that a company cannot be happy of all the blogosphere hurricane around this issue. Our Customer spoke his satisfaction with facts, not words: he bought 3 units like the one he tested during this year with a company set up specifically for this purpose.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Rossi has not identified the Customer behind the company created for the test — JM Chemical Products, Inc. The License Agreement between Leonardo Corp just mentions that JMC is “owned by an entity formed in the United Kingdom”, so I assume that thsi the customer who Rossi has said has bought three more plants.

Rossi mentioned that there were many problems to deal with during the 1-year test, so I would assume that the new plants will have been redesigned based on what was learned during the test.

The UK is outside of the licensing area covered by the contract with Industrial Heat, so there may be no legal issues connected with the current lawsuit that Rossi has filed against IH to interfere with this sale. Of course, this is all unconfirmed at the moment — it will be interesting to see if we can get some external confirmation of Rossi’s statement.

UPDATE (Apr 15, 2016):

Andrea Rossi was asked on the JONP by Renzo how long it would take to build ship and install the plant; he replied “I forsee 180 working days”. He also answered a similar question from Patrick Ellul:

Patrick Ellul:
See the answer to Renzo, adding that times cannot be precise, since our manufacturing structure is not yet experienced and we still do not have a final production line.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

  • Barbierir

    Any gutsy investigative journalist out there? Should we crowdfund the expenses for a customer hunt?

    • wpj

      Unfortunately my main contact inJM has just retired.

  • Mats002

    Rossi seams to have two modes of english; one with accent and one flawless, hmmm…

  • This time we have court documents that reveal a real independent UK-based customer and that investors have spoken with that customer (and sunk tens of millions into IH as a result).

    Not a certainty but more solid than just Rossi saying secret plants were sold to secret customers.

  • Chris Marshalk

    I’ve been on the waiting list for the domestic cat for many years. If the breaks have been lifted off the production line, how long will it be until the domestic units hit consumers?

    • Mats002

      Can you believe this: http://www.ecatexhibition.eu/en/news/hannover_messe_2016.html

      Ecat International exhibits at Hannover messe, Germany???

      • artefact

        “ECAT EXPO is an international group for Exhibition and Display business.” 🙁

        • Mats002

          Yes but admit your heart made an extra beat there 😉

          • artefact

            Yes.. when I read Germany 🙂

      • Appears totally unrelated to LENR.

    • SD

      Between the lawsuit and the safety certification, my guess is not this year or the next 🙁

      Or maybe MFMP and co will figure things out and a DIY solution will emerge.

  • Alan Smith

    ‘Ok, so people I have talked to, who visited the plant, got a presentation from someone supposedly being the ‘Director of Engineering’ at JM Products Inc, that supposedly produced metal sponges for catalytic applications. The Director of Engineering told them that they were very satisfied since the yield per amount of electric energy consumed was significantly larger than in the company’s other production sites, maybe 10x or 20x (figure uncertain). Someone got a glimpse though a door and saw what seemed to be production activity. Only that T Darden told people I have talked to that the COP was about one and that there was no production in the customer’s factory. So truth seems to have many different faces here.’

    Above from Mat’s blog.

    http://www.jmprotech.com/images-uploaded/files/72052%20Sponge%20Metal%20brochure.pdf

    • artefact

      Johnson Matthey …

      • Really be weird if it wasn’t them at this point.

        I think the 3rd hand denials are just so they can stay out of it for as long as possible.

        • wpj

          As I originally said, Johnson Matthew without a doubt. I’m sure that the ultimate objective is to get in on the ground floor and produce the sauce.

          • psi2u2

            Makes total sense. And save a bundle as an early adopter. Very sweet move for them.

          • They are no doubt aware of the IH red flags being thrown up. Yet they bought three anyway.

            Perhaps their thinking is that as long as Rossi is willing to eat 90% of the electricity cost they don’t care if it works or not. They win either way. /s

          • psi2u2

            More power to them.

          • wpj

            The JM group is excellent and extremely helpful in suggesting catalysts (their suggestion of 384 Pd/C saved my bacon). Hope it’s them.

          • How many companies in the UK make catalytic sponges?

          • wpj

            No others. It is German companies (2) that are the competitors.

          • wpj

            Actually, Englehard was a US company before it was bought by the Germans several years ago.

        • timycelyn

          Hmmm – it certainly looks like it on the surface. But….

          Their sponge metal cluster manufacturing site is in Tennessee.

          “Johnson Matthey’s Sponge MetalTM Catalysts manufacturing site is located in Sevierville, Tennessee, USA, at the foothills of the beautiful Great Smoky Mountains. The production plants and laboratories are modern facilities capable of producing high quality alloy powders and activated catalysts with great consistency. The plant became ISO-9002 certified in 1993 and ISO9001-2000 certified in 2005.”

          Of course, they may have some smaller R&D activity on a UK site…

          http://www.jmprotech.com/images-uploaded/files/72052%20Sponge%20Metal%20brochure.pdf

          • wpj

            As pointed out, this unit was scaled down plant specifically installed to test the unit; it looks like JM were willing to risk some money on the operation, presumably for future benefit.

            Their major operation is at Royston near Cambridge in the UK.

      • Rossi claimed it was not Johnson Matthey.

        • wpj

          Sorry, but it all fits, name and products. Probably just covering his rear.

        • But they fit JM Chemical (original name) perfectly are from the UK and now *you* tell us they were making catalytic sponges.

          I mean who else could it be?

          I think Rossi was just protecting them.

          I really hope it is them or a similar type company. Somebody that would definitely not participate in a scam.

          • wpj

            They have probably been waiting 27 years for the opportunity again!

          • artefact

            And they are in the nickel catalyst business.

          • wpj

            Yes but main is Pd/Pt which is where they make their money. Also involved with South African banks in catalytic converter recycling.

          • Gerald

            From the link Alan provided they also make NiCr catalist.From the slides i’m reading right now, this could be a fine one to. A great theory BSM-SG, it looks so much simpeler then the Niels Bohr theory.

            http://www.slideshare.net/stoyansarg/a-new-theoretical-approach-to-lenr-usint-the-bsmsg-atomic-models

          • psi2u2

            I think maybe this is solved, at least until good evidence directly contradicts it. There are too many coincidences here all in one for it not to seem like the right solution. We have only Rossi’s word through Mats that it is wrong, but it’s easy to see why he would say it simply to protect them from unwanted exposure.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I cannot find this statement. Did he perhaps delete it?

        • Curbina

          Well, Mats, Mr. Rossi says it is not Johnson Matthey. I would not like to say that Mr. Rossi would be lying on purpose in this case. But then, I have to agree with other posters that with the few clues we have about the process for what the plant was providing the steam, and the name JM Chemical Products Inc. in the last page of the License agreement, which was purposefully wrote by hand instead of JMC products Inc., are too much of a coincidence, just to ignore it, unless there’s another UK company that makes sponge metal catalysts, which I just spent half an hour googling to no avail. All that said, and just for the purpose of stablishing if there was ever a similar behaviour from Rossi of denying something that we later found out to be true, I was trying to remember if Rossi was ever asked about Cherokee when the first clues were pointing at them, and if he ever refused to acknowledge that until it was admited publicly. Does anyone recall that period?

    • Thomas Kaminski

      That is as simple a concept as one can have. “Does LENR allow me to make more product with the same energy?” Or, “Can I use less energy making the same amount of product?”

      • wpj

        The price they charge for the catalyst, I would have thought that energy would not be a great factor though it all adds to the bottom line.

    • Rossi: COP = >> 6, 50+, ran mostly in SSM, IH/ERV/LC measurements in agreement
      JM Products Engineer: COP = 10-20
      ERV/Penon: Pending. (presumably what Rossi alleges in court docs)
      Fabiani: (3 months before test completion): amazing, hitting all performance targets
      Darden (during test): no complaints, investment tours w/ access to JM Products engineer
      West: silent

      JM Products (after test): I’ll take 3 more
      Rossi (after test): pay me my $89M, no? see you in court
      Darden (after test): COP = 1, prepare for the worst press release, no you’re in breach!
      Fabiani: silent
      West: silent

      • psi2u2

        Conclusion? : )

        • HS61AF91

          shucks, Darden duplicity.

        • deleo77

          There would have to be an implication of outright fraud. JM is a fake company, the equipment on site was a gathering of props and the people were actors. It sounds exhausting just to set all of that up for show.

          • psi2u2

            Yes, but you know how damned clever the dottore is!

        • Here’s what I think that I think in moments of relative clarity:

          I don’t believe that the field is littered with scammers and incompetence. I also don’t think Darden is evil. That leaves me with 3 leading scenarios that jockey for position in my head.

          1 – Things were going swimmingly for months but word came in late from West (or perhaps Fabiani) to Darden that something was amiss. There’s a questionable calculation or flaw in the setup recognized late in the game. They see the ERV report, which is strongly positive, and reject it as a result.

          2 – This is about IP, greed and business. Darden is using the leverage he has at the moment to try and obtain more IP or save a few million. Or perhaps force a divorce with Rossi because he has what he needs and has fallen in love with another.

          3 – This is theater. Industrial Heat’s late change of behavior can be explained by strategy just as much as it can by an unexpected red flag. This is about scaring off other companies and establishing IP rights in a court of law.

          ——-
          If I had a gun to my head, I pick 1b. Where the ‘b’ is that Industrial Heat really does think it doesn’t work but they have reached a false conclusion based on misinformation from West or a misunderstanding over what is in Penon’s report.

          But I’m sure new information will come out and I’ll need to revise my thinking. Seems to happen daily.

          • psi2u2

            Ya, nice summary, especially the conclusion…..; )

          • Carl Wilson

            “2 – This is about IP, greed and business. Darden is using the leverage
            he has at the moment to try and obtain more IP or save a few million.”
            or – (warning) conspiracy theory:
            “2b – This is about IP, power/control and business.
            Some powers behind Darden trying to snag IP. Direct electricity production unexpected development, escalates the stakes. Pull back & regroup. Darden caught in middle.

        • MasterBlaster7

          The conclusion is…..

          “Can’t we all just get along” — Rodney King

          I mean. There is SOOOO much money to be made here on both sides. Couldn’t they have just worked out their differences amicably?

          this is the way it should have gone….

          Vinnie Daniel: How are you f***ing us?

          Jared Vennett: When you come for the payday, I’m gonna rip your eyes out. I’m gonna make a fortune. The good news is Vinnie, you’re not going to care cause you’re gonna make so much money. That’s what I get out of it. Wanna know what you get out of it? You get the ice cream, the hot fudge, the banana and the nuts. Right now I get the sprinkles, and ya – if this goes thru, I get the cherry. But you get the sundae Vinny. You get the sundae.

          Vinnie Daniel: All right. I buy that. Thank you.

          — The Big Short

    • Curbina

      Well, Johnson Mathey had already been discarded as the possible purchaser, but do we really have much more companies to choose from that produce catalytic sponges and are called JM Chemical products???

      • psi2u2

        There’s another thread in this discussion in which the general feeling was that it must be Johnson Mathey, which would mean that when that name was denied it was merely to protect the company from intrusive inquiry, which is wholly understandable.

        • Curbina

          Well, I reckon that Rossi would never tell which company is, but I also think he would not deny it and would either ignore the topic or remove posts asserting the name of the company if we were right.

          • psi2u2

            I would see good reason to deny it if I were him. But, we don’t really know. It just seems that Johnson Mathey keeps coming back at the top of people’s lists. So when I weigh that against the other theory and take into consideration what could be a significant desire on the part of the customer to remain confidential at this time, that still seems the most probable to me. But what do I know?

            We’ve all seen a lot of twists and turns and we will see more I’m sure.

    • Alain Samoun

      This could make sens as the production of this type of catalysts needs time and temperature for leaching – (around 100C.) So a lot of energy is needed during the process at about the temperature provided by a steam reactor.

      • psi2u2

        It seems to fit in both directions; they need a lot of heat, and they work in an industry involving catalysts, I wonder if Rossi has been their customer in the past – or, as some have suggested, are they eyeing the market for manufacturing Rossi’s fuel mixtures? Both?

      • wpj

        I tend to think that they must require steam in the process rather than for external heating; no chemical operations use steam any more. It is all Dowtherm with 2/3 steams at -30, 100 and 180 which is computer mixed in order to achieve the required temperature

    • Slad

      The problem being: Johnson Matthey don’t have a facility in Florida, the nearest is in Savannah GA

      • Axil Axil

        Andrea Rossi

        April 14, 2016 at 1:44 PM

        Bernie Koppenhofer:

        You are too intelligent not to understand that a company cannot be happy of all the blogosphere hurricane around this issue. Our Customer spoke his satisfaction with facts, not words: he ordered 3 units like the one he tested during this year with a company set up specifically for this purpose.

        Warm Regards,

        A.R.

        Note: “a company set up specifically for this purpose.”

      • Alan Smith

        Johnson Matthey is a huge and wealthy company. With a historical connection to LENR as palladium suppliers to P&F and others back in ’89. If JM wanted a sneak trial of something revolutionary they have a huge potential commercial interest in (as fuel suppliers not only as seekers after cheap and clean energy) they would hardly do it in an existing plant. Now the plant has been dismantled, the containers are en route (eventually) to NC and we wait for some version of the truth of all this to come out in court.

        • wpj

          The implication was that the unit has been recharged and still operating, so maybe this small operation is commercially viable with the energy cost savings.

          See update 40 of the year long test thread.

  • Nigel Appleton

    Oh, I say, old chap!
    Bit harsh, what?
    Some of us Brits can understand quite long words, you know, and even follow a train of logic (sometimes)

    This does not, of course, apply to our “government”

  • HS61AF91

    Damn, is it not getting harder and harder to be a good skeptic these days? Oh well, all you skeptics, come on over, grow smiles and chock up three replicative buys. Don’t be dower, think about the bought and sold benefits of e-Cat power.

    • Rossi Fan

      Call me dumb and not too intelligent to understand but I do not. From my experience there are two types of companies. Those that are afraid of bold moves and conservative because their business demands it. Those that are leading edge and take risks because their market rewards it. Having someone wheel in a cold fusion plant and agreeing to pay them $1000/day for it means the company is in the later category. To turn around and say they are too timid to admit it I just do not buy.

      • Carl Wilson

        Not timidity, just wanting to move quickly, silently, un-distracted.

      • HS61AF91

        Gosh there are lots of shades of timidity. Making a ‘killing’ without a whole lot of onlookers is one kind, kinda think that the kind the three time buyer has.

        • Rossi Fan

          You want peace and quiet, I get it, it’s a free country after all. You don’t let anybody wheel a cold fusion plant into your workplace. Nobody ever got fired for refusing to buy a Pons and Fleischmann.

    • Mike Rion

      I wonder if Galileo had these same problems with the flat earther’s. Do we never learn anything?

      • cashmemorz

        My brain says I can believe since so many have LENR devices in research or development or ready for market. But emotionally I still have to give my head a shake that it is becoming or is available on the market already.

  • Nigel Appleton

    At what point during or after the 350-day test, I wonder, did Customer buy more 1MW plants

  • wpj

    So you might change to a racemate soon and then do a complete chiral inversion.

  • HS61AF91

    OK. I admit, I got a little harsh with my comment. However what the hey I did it. In the Stars and Stripes article of 12 April, titled ‘Navy to require climate change reporting from vendors’ where it states; “the world’s single largest user of fossil fuels [our Navy] … requires big vendors to report their output of climate-changing greenhouse gases and work to lower it.” I pointed out a publicity enhancing fact in this comment:
    Doctore Andrea Rossi and his 1 megawatt ‘e-Cat’. This dude just sold
    three of his 1MW heat producing devices which require 1 unit of energy
    to go in, and at least 6 of the same units of energy to come out. I am
    absolutely sure the Navy knows all about this, but the AP is numnuttedly
    ignorant.

    • psi2u2

      roglol.

  • “and IH saying the tech is not real.”

    THAT is not what IH posted in their press release.

    You do not really need an advanced lawyer degree to understand the terms that they actually used in the press release, and the wiggle room it gave them.

  • SG

    The problem is if few believe you have what you have (no matter how many tests and positive reports are generated–and there have been several over the years), it is going to be tough to find the necessary capital to scale up. I believe Mr. Rossi realizes this and has opted for the Quark, which can be initially produced with less capital, and then expanded from there. But of course, based on the tone of your message, you have already made up your mind. I speak primarily for the benefit of others here.

    • psi2u2

      Very well put.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Quark announcement timing was too convenient — just as Hot-Cat was being dumped.

      No one has ever seen an ECAT-X in the wild.

      • SG

        True, although nearly every (perhaps every?) time Mr. Rossi has mentioned a product in the works, the evidence of such has eventually surfaced.

      • wpj

        Only an IH employee.

  • Johnny English

    I suppose that IH does not wan’t to sell them 3 plant and risk the customer to sue them when they notice a few years down the line that the plants don’t actually produce any heat (irony) – soo I guess these funds can be accredited to some further start up capital for Rossi’s factories.

    Good on!

    One can only wonder what comes next!
    Maybe the awkward exposure of disinformation goons tied to IH?

  • HS61AF91

    it’s hard being a skeptic, as in “it’s hard to be humble when you are perfect in every way” type of meaning, as native speakers who know country music will comprehend.

    • psi2u2

      Yes I must say that I have experienced on the internet that the “skeptics” badge is frequently little more than a pledge to uphold already established dogmas in a range of fields marked by real intellectual ferment of the the sort that leads to major transformations in the paradigms of knowledge.

  • HS61AF91

    I’ll happily join you in a “Cheers!”

  • Michael W Wolf

    How many does Rossi have to sell before it is considered commercialized?

    • psi2u2

      I think you have to have a customer that comes forward. Such a customer, however, has good reasons for not doing so I would say.

    • cashmemorz

      As soon as one customer is confirmed. Exactly how that comes about is one of a several ways or their combination thereof such as :one customer talks to the media; the pending court case between IH and Leonardo requires a solid witness via an agreeable customer; a government EVR appointed to a real customer; any of the military that can be subpeoned by the judiciary; commercial experts that are considered as witness to said customer(s)

  • dickyaesta

    All of you seem to forget they (Darren and company) danced like etoiles de ballet (stars), when they heard the good news. Later they changed into little greedy bandits a la Walt Disney and did the Holy Hoop and raided the Rossi AP, but big bad Rossi saw it all coming and had them hurled into jail.

    The first part of this sad, sad story no one could invent not even Rossi under duress, so the dancing is the truth, therefore Darren etc. know there is ample surplus and should pay up or make a deal. And let us, to dance like little etoiles in the sun. We ALL deserve it.

    • dickyaesta

      Tom Darden et company dancing the Holy Hoop, a long way from dancing like little opera ballet etoiles.

      • georgehants

        A few Facts, after five years of Mr. Rossi’s work nobody in the World has been able to reproduce a Cold Fusion unit capable of anything like commercially viable.
        This excepts any possible hidden work being done by secret society’s.etc.
        There is nothing more that can be accepted until and unless Mr. Rossi shows something beyond Rossi says.
        He does not need a court case, he has always said he owns the IP.
        He can donate a small unit to MFMP to test at anytime.
        He can show the workshops where all these new cats are being produced.
        He can reveal the report as any NDA’s must be dead after both sides have revealed their positions.
        He has always said units working in a commercial enviroment will prove Cold Fusion, well he has these units (possibly) and keeping them secret is totally against everything he has ever said regarding proving to the World Cold Fusion is a commercial reality.
        It would be helpful if he stopped putting on his blog continuous streams of un-provable Rossi says information and added just one or two things that are immediately verifiable.
        He has all the hallmarks of the Wizard of Oz.
        Or perhaps it can all be explained by the insanity’s of capitalism

        • Michael W Wolf

          Can’t help yourself, can you? Your comment is part of the reason LENR will come to the world slowly and under the radar, the little guy you always claim to speak for, is who pays for your kind of rhetoric. Your comments are borderline slanderous. But that is typical of the socialist ends justifies the means truth ignoring kind of propaganda. He sold three units and you bash him. Yea that will encourage him!!! gees.

          • georgehants

            Micheal you do not have the slightest proof that he has sold three “working units”
            The rest of your comment is not worth responding to.

          • Michael W Wolf

            You are right. I just believe him. Technically, Rossi said ordered. I stand corrected. But you don’t have proof to say the contrary either. I’d rather believe a man and hope, than call him liar and risk slander.

          • psi2u2

            Given the stakes and what we know, I agree this is a better option.

          • georgehants

            Michael.I in no way called him a lier, why are you twisting what was said?
            I have defended Mr.Rossi at every turn for five years and still do against blind closed-minded skeptics as on any subject.
            My comment stated Facts that need answers, I am sorry that has upset you but my goal in life is Truth in all areas, not supporting years of delay for money and riches and that is my right if you agree or not.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Ok George, I jumped the gun. Sorry man. I can’t really argue with you on this one because you are right. You were just harsh in your tone and yes I read into it more than was there. Sorry about that.

          • georgehants

            Michael, I did not say “the contrary” I said ——
            “He has always said units working in a commercial enviroment will prove
            Cold Fusion, well he has these units (possibly) and keeping them secret
            is totally against everything he has ever said regarding proving to the
            World Cold Fusion is a commercial reality.”
            Perhaps you would like to re-write your reply keeping to the Facts.

  • Rossi Fan

    Well we got a tiny bit more than that. They did not say it isn’t so. They did not say they did not pay Rossi $10 smackeroos. Nor did they mention the word hogwash to Rossi’s accusation that Woodford paid IH $50 more where that came from.

  • Roland

    He should have stuck with buggy whips…

  • Roland

    ‘Dark Money’ shines a light on how the Koch brothers operate, the Koch brothers just happen to be the major funders of climate change denial, the PR firm leading this effort just happens to be our friends at APCO.

    If your product is killing millions of people, big tobacco, and you need someone to lie for you in the face of overwhelming evidence so your business can continue to kill people for profit you just can’t do any better than hiring the sociopaths at APCO.

    If your business puts the future of our, and countless other, species at risk who are you gonna call. The answer is clear, call APCO, they’ll say and do anything for a buck…

    Actually they charge a lot of money but they’re experts at finding plausible scum who’ll sell out humanity for peanuts; a strategy that does wonders for the bottom line.

    Welcome to the big time folks…

  • Alan Smith

    It is ( or used to be) one and the same company – they (JM) supplied the Palladium that P&F used. My B-I-L used to work at their now closed Harlow Essex precious metal refinery.

  • e-dog

    How’s Roosi going to run four 1meg e-cats at the same time???
    Hes going to burn out!

    Unless! He starts to share the knowledge…

    Like he says, hes only getting out of the shipping container for maybe few hours per day. How can he micromanage another three units!

    I wonder if they are still a million bucks a piece? How much extra do you have to pay for a Rossi inside?

    • psi2u2

      Are you trying to have a serious conversation, or just draw attention to yourself?

      • e-dog

        hahah…. no Im not being serious at all..
        Because at this stage the whole affair seems to be one huge joke, Im just not sure whos telling it at the moment, but im sure its one all of us.

        • e-dog

          Actually I think I raise a few good points, in a not so serious way.

          • psi2u2

            Like what? Sharing knowledge? Yes, but that’s a given isn’t it?

          • e-dog

            Questions raised:
            How’s Roosi going to run four 1meg e-cats at the same time??? – hes been personally running one full time for a year now.

            Point made: Hes going to burn out!- His health has been questioned lately .

            Point: Unless! He starts to share the knowledge… – if he had a service team that knew how the units work, it would be easier to run 3 more

            Point: Like he says, hes only getting out of the shipping container for maybe few hours per day. – he’s spending up to 18 hours a day(ok, I exaggerated sorry)

            Question: How can he micromanage another three units! ? – seems real tricky to me..how would he do it

            Question: I wonder if they are still a million bucks a piece? – fair question, do you get a bulk discount or has the price changed?

            How much extra do you have to pay for a Rossi inside? – fair question, do you pay for servicing etc?

          • psi2u2

            Whatever. I hope you find yourself amusing.

          • e-dog

            And I find you amusing too! 🙂

      • US_Citizen71

        Interestingly enough if I click on e-dog’s name you get enantiomer2000 profile. Discus seems to think he suffers from split personality.

        • e-dog

          really? I should try that..

          • US_Citizen71

            Appears to be an issue with Discus it seems to remember the last profile you clicked on in Chrome. It is doing it with other profiles too.

          • Skip

            Well, one of you should

            😉

          • g

            “They” have secretly mastered several different free energy technologies for a long time. Now it is the time to release it. Tricky though. It can jeopardise social relations that have been engineered for centuries. Rossi was hired to play the part of prometheus. It is all scripted. Even the “anagnorisis” moment when the bill of the customer will be revealed. All supervised too. Thoroughly.

    • Roland

      Gee Dog, some folks learn from their mistakes and solve problems; sort of like how we got from Kitty Hawk to the F-35.

      As Rossi made plain some time ago version 2.0 of the 1megawatt plant incorporates everything that was learned from a year long experiment into the current iteration…

      • e-dog

        Good point Rolo, I wonder when they will get their new improved units? Was there a time frame mentioned?

        I just hope his output rate increases at the rate human flight has…. but think of how many people were/are working on that.. and it wasnt exactly top secret knowledge.

        • Roland

          War planes aren’t top secret, who knew.

          • e-dog

            ok ok… touche

          • cashmemorz

            If AR has an E_Cat with thrust NASA and others are already talking to AR for test unit to put in their SUGAR plane.

          • US_Citizen71

            We won’t see planes powered by LENR outside of the military for decades.

          • cashmemorz

            If the stealth bomber was declassified within a couple of years for public viewing then the same might apply here?

          • US_Citizen71

            The stealth bomber wasn’t viewed for over a decade after the program began. “By 1976, these programs progressed to where a long-range strategic stealth bomber appeared viable. President Carter was aware of these developments during 1977, and it appears to have been one of the major reasons the B-1 was canceled.[12] Further studies were ordered in early 1978, by which point the Have Blue platform had flown and proven the concepts. During the 1980 presidential election campaign in 1979, Ronald Reagan repeatedly stated that Carter was weak on defense, and used the B-1 as a prime example. In return, on 22 August 1980, the Carter administration publicly disclosed that the United States Department of Defense (DoD) was working to develop stealth aircraft, including a bomber. … First flight 17 July 1989” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-2_Spirit

            “November, 1988 ― First public viewing (roll-out) of the B-2, Palmdale, Calif”- http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/B2SpiritBomber/Documents/pageDocuments/B-2_25th_Anniversary_Fact_Sheet.pdf

            Why would governments want to give up such a massive technological advantage? The delay will be easy the safety card will played. Military pilots are property and can fly dangerous planes that are nowhere near rated for safe flight.

          • MLWerner

            I spent several months working in the B-2 factory in Palmdale refitting it for building the forward fuselage of the F-35. Awesome place and they are very proud of their work on the B-2.
            This picture is of one of five vehicles we built for Northrup, but is actually at a test facility. No photos in Palmdale!
            http://www.agvsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/hb_1a.jpg

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            What prevents the use LENR heating in civil aircraft engines ?

          • US_Citizen71

            Government approval. Someone might find away to put one on an experimental plane which generally are restricted by weight and power, but can’t fly paying passengers. Passenger planes are completely controlled by government authorities like the FAA. Without their approval you can’t fly them at least in most countries. Without that ability no major manufacturers will make them.

  • Thomas Baccei

    What is the last thing that Rossi claimed that anyone actually knows to be true? Three more units, a hundred units, a reactionless drive, direct electricity with no heat pollution. Just let him validate any one of these outrageous claims! Just one! Please!

    • cashmemorz

      Of course. Here is how… Wait for one of the customers to talk. It will be more unbelievable if no customers talk.

    • Roland

      Ah Doubting Thomas.

      There are a number of people that can verify Rossi’s claims as they’re first person observers; that doesn’t mean you personally get access to their knowledge and you’re just gonna have to wait with the rest of the folks who aren’t insiders cause right now you’re a nobody and not one of those ‘anybodies’.

      If that doesn’t suit you you can always forget all about LENR till Ford puts an E-cat in your Focus.

      Meanwhile, LENR is real and the show goes on.

  • cashmemorz

    I will not fall into a shill trap, I will not.. aww you know the price of gold is fixed after calculating the amount available per country and its exchange rates between countries and other neferaious changes as time goes on.

  • Slad

    Subpoena those clowns!

  • winebuff67

    Let’s cut to the chase and have some transparency here there is no reason for secrets anymore it serves no one. release info on type of plant and where it’s located please.

    • Roland

      Cough up $100,000,000.

      Oh wait, that was for the last round. Drop Leonardo a line and ask how much you have to pony up with now to know everything…

      • jimbo92107

        Can I buy one on spec? 😉

        • jousterusa

          If I were the customer, I’d keep one plant for myself and sell the other three for $2 million each – at least!

          • cashmemorz

            Can’t do that. Andrea Rossi always insisted that a qualified operator or personnel be on hand at all times at the site of an E-Cat. Such personnel have to be trained by Leonardo Corp. So selling to a third party might be tempting for fast cash in-flow but contrary to contract. In other words you have to know specialized knowledge to operate an E-Cat, knowledge not widely available, as yet.

          • Mike Rion

            I doubt this customer is interested in short term profit. He will go for long term savings if the performance is as good as stated

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            If the operation of the boiler requires specially trained staff (knowledge of nuclear physics? Thermodynamics? Manual process?), Then the product is not ready for widespread use.

        • Thomas Kaminski

          Alex, the plant under test was modified in a fairly short time from the older plant to the newer 4X250KW plant. If in fact all of the electrical and mechanical drawings are up to date, 6 months is penty of time to make 3 units. As an example, during the Y2K events, sales of portable generators jumped 4 fold in less than a year. See Chart 2 here:

          https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/102941/ecportgen.pdf

          • Jarea

            I would say 9 months. He said “working” days

          • Mike Rion

            This is all just idle speculation.

          • A potential customer possibly – if there was a product to buy.

            Certainly not a potential investor.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            No, Mike — this is “active” speculation. My opinion is based on 40 years as an engineer. Given that the plant has been demonstrated (that is still subject to confirmation), one can assume that the plans are done. Replicating a device is straightforward.

            I have followed the developments of Rossi’s devices for years. I have contended, based on pictures and descriptions, that any of my technical students could replicate the devices in a semester. However, the “fuel” might be a bit difficult for them.

            Do you doubt that the plant can be replicated in 6 months?

          • Mike Rion

            No, I don’t, provided the bugs have been adequately worked out. I have a little experience with working the bugs out of complicated machinery and it can be a bit tedious even when perfectly replicated. I’ve been following this more or less since 1989 and never doubted it could, and did, work as early as F and P in Utah. It’s too bad it was pushed underground for so long by the pompous naysayer’s or we might already have been using it for 20 years or more. Some times science is its own worse enemy it seems.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I agree with the “bugs worked out” issue. I suspect that the number of hours Rossi spent in the shipping container was in part trying to “tune” the control algorithms. For a complex, non-linear system (as LENR seems to be) without a good system model, control is very difficult. Still, he seems to have tamed the beast. Systems will always have bugs — hopefully they will be minor and not lead to major failures.

            I once managed a complex system development with a large number of hardware and software components. Hardware engineers always were more cognizant of deadlines and getting the design ready for production. If I let them (I did not), software engineers would be changing code up to the the minute it was shipped.

    • hempenearth

      US_Citizen71 searched the Florida state division of corporations and found the location over a year ago in this thread:
      http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/05/05/new-image-of-the-e-cat-plant-on-trademark-application/

  • Ophelia Rump

    I wonder if this has anything to do with the problems.

    “Since the 1970s emission control catalysts made by Johnson Matthey have prevented over half a billion tonnes of pollutants from reaching the atmosphere”

    • cashmemorz

      Initialized by concerned citizens (environmentalists) that pushed government to mandate car manufactures to cut down on automotive emissions. In 10 years JM will do even more for pollution prevention by supplying secret sauce to Leonardo E-Cats X, Quarks. So it won’t be AR or Leonardo alone but the manufacturers of fine metallurgical powders.

      • wpj

        Indeed, my own feelings. Additionally, there will probably be a lot more consistency in the sauce when it is made by chefs with a century of experience in the kitchen.

  • Alan DeAngelis
    • SG

      Now that was an unwelcome flashback if ever there was one! The mainstream media never ceases to amaze me by their inability to dig below the surface of any story, with the exception of a few programs such as 60 minutes. Why do we usually get a light skim on stories and that’s it? I’m so grateful for the rise of the Internet.

      • Alan DeAngelis
        • SG

          Yes, yes, I do. So many words, so little meaning. 2.5 minutes I’ll never get back. Thanks a lot!

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yea. The good the bad and the ugly. The internet has it all. But at least we are NOT spoon fed one particular point of view which is what all other sources of information do. God bless the internet, for all it’s imperfections. At least the truth is there for us to choose from.

  • Jerry Soloman

    I would much happier buying an,’ Original eCat ‘ than knock-off Industrial Heat.

    • Giuliano Bettini

      He changed……he ordered is not “he bought”

      Andrea Rossi

      April 14, 2016 at 1:44 PM

      Bernie Koppenhofer:

      You are too intelligent not to understand that a company cannot be happy of all the blogosphere hurricane around this issue. Our Customer spoke his satisfaction with facts, not words: he ordered 3 units like the one he tested during this year with a company set up specifically for this purpose.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      Andrea Rossi

      April 14, 2016 at 1:44 PM

      Bernie Koppenhofer:

      You are too intelligent not to understand that a company cannot be happy of all the blogosphere hurricane around this issue. Our Customer spoke his satisfaction with facts, not words: he bought 3 units like the one he tested during this year with a company set up specifically for this purpose.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      • Mike Henderson

        Nice. This afternoon I posted a note to him saying perhaps because English is not his first language there was a miscommunication. “Bought” usually means “received the goods and paid for” and perhaps he meant to use the word “ordered” instead.

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          Yes, latin derivated languages dont use “ordered” .we use “buy” when we refer to both parts of the process – ordering and receiving the goods.

          We have a term wich could be used wich is “encargar” in spanish (similar to the italian i guess) but it is not frecuently used.

      • aryth

        Well, I would not hold it against him, probably just linguistics…
        I am not Italian, but also not a native speaker of English, and, I too sometimes misuse “bought” as “certain intention to buy” or as a process of purchasing that has already started (but not necessarily completed).

      • Michael W Wolf

        You are absolutely right.

    • e-dog

      what a mess

  • Pweet

    There must be so many 1MW ecat plants out now it’s hard to understand how we don’t here about any of them from people who have worked with them and from the people who maintain them.
    First there was the one sold to the secret military customer.
    They were so happy with it they bought 11 more, apparently.

    Now the customer who did the one year test is so happy with it they have bought three more.
    With that many in constant use it will provide the certification authorities so much precedent data to go on they should be certified for home use any day now.
    I can hardly wait.

    • hempenearth

      Lol, sarcasm will get you nowhere Pweet.

      • Obvious

        A whole bunch of IP was shared with everyone, when the patent application with Dameron named as co-inventor was published.

      • Pweet

        Sorry. What I should have said was, why is this latest announcement that the customer has bought or ordered three more 1MW plants taken so seriously?
        Four years ago we heard almost exactly the same thing and it all turned out to be fiction.
        I recall the previous announcements of the ‘secret military customer’ who bought and then operated a 1MW plant for one year and was so pleased with the first plant that they bought eleven more. Eleven!
        We were given a number of updates on the initial twelve month operation of the first plant sold and were told maintenance was done according to schedule and performance was as per specifications and that the customer was happy with it all.
        It was discussed right here on ECW and was used as proof of validity.

        It has since been made obvious that none of this was true. Not even a teeny bit true. It was all made up.
        It was all total fiction to the extent that not even the first plant was sold or delivered and certainly not run for twelve months, which makes all the running reports fiction also.
        That is not a small slip of the tongue, or finger, or a small misunderstanding due to language difficulties. It was an ongoing and deliberate deception.
        Now the same situation is happening again almost to the letter and we are expected to believe it with no supporting evidence?
        I will believe it when some supporting evidence comes in from reliable people, and that will not be from any of the usual cast and crew because they have proven to be as equally unreliable as the main actor.

    • Jarea

      I have heard from Dechiaro and Navsea.

  • MLWerner

    Actually his name would be Mudd.
    Samuel Alexander Mudd (December 20, 1833 – January 10, 1883) was an American physician who was imprisoned for conspiring with John Wilkes Booth in the assassination of U.S. President Abraham Lincoln. From Wikipedia. Most believe that Dr Mudd only helped an injured person and didn’t know he was an assassin.

  • Andrew

    What I find funny about a lot of these comments is that on one hand people are so sure about fraud without proof yet with the other hand being held out for Rossi to prove. It’s like a twisted form of innocent until proven guilty, it’s fraud until proven otherwise. No middle ground for critical thinking. As far as I’m concerned nothing is set in stone until proof for or against comes out and I’m sure that proof will come out in the courts. There are only 2 possible outcomes I see at the end of the tunnel. Rossi goes to jail or he has the goods. Time will tell.

    • right,
      we need more hard fact.
      Today Rossi Says, and give increasingly commitng claims of grandiosity of his technology.
      And IH says “we cannot substantiate” “without value”, and dump what look like the golden egg goose.

      The economic model of IH is based on a variation of open business. IH can build Rossi’s reactor, after technology transfer, and have access to any evolution of that technology (Ecat-X, Ecat HT, Quark… and future), without removing any property right to Rossi who can also exploit anywhere and license to others (in other zone).

      the market is so big that exclusivity is useless, only important is access to the knowhow and licence to use it somewhere…

      so whay IH may be unhappy ?

      I see few reasons :
      – they cannot substantiate the E-cat themselves
      – they don’t have access to E-cat X technology, while rossi advertise it and make their E-cat LT and E-cat HT without any value.
      – there is no E-cat technology

      notice that the result of the 1MW test is abslolutely not a problem.
      at best it is a symptom.
      if E-cat 1MW client is a joke, and ERV test report is a joke, the problem is not that 1MW plan does not work, it is that Rossi is a joker, which mean the IP is a joke.

      You don’t pay 89Mn$ for a joke except in Las Vegas.

      • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

        You are right when you say IH has the rights of all future developments.

        But dont forget they tried to get the IP filing a patent with his own people as co-author.

        That feels like they just dont want be limited to the LA.

      • Andrew

        To me the customer doesn’t matter. They could be using the heat for whatever they want. Temp in, temp out and power used are really the only things that matter(in a basic sense).

    • Argon

      Andrew, agree. Take a look at discussion under Matts latest blog https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/12/and-heres-the-opposite-hypothesis-on-the-rossi-ih-affair/

      Start from the oldest reply, and you see that there were real honest, truth seeking and good discussion going on, but then it got filled up with many different kind of people. It is school book example for psychologists (or historicist) to study after LENR mystery gets final answer. You read you judge, but my grouping is:
      – Honest people seeking truth of solving the puzzle based on which scenarios fits to which facts and trying to predict future. This can be categorized as neutral truth seeking wait and see group.

      – Honest people seeking truth from whole history of Ross and old tests (some of them could be Tepco trolls, trying to make us to look wrong direction, you never know, but can suspect)

      – Honest people with endless yes/no -arguing purely based more on their gut feeling or fears than knowledge, maybe because they can not stand what it would mean if otherwise. This group includes both Cryptodenialists and Rossifans. Part, maybe big part, of them can be trolls from different groups with own reasons to do so, wheras Rossifans I think has no another reason than belief or general taking a stand for the weak ones.
      -maybe few more sub groups (like Jed trying to fix his previous sayings maybe under hard pressure), but i want to keep this list short.
      – Enablers trying to help to keep focus of discussion to go direction they like to read.

      I am not quite sure to which group those ‘verbal selfie’ -posters belongs to, maybe borders are vague.

      Same things happens here and other forums, but that thread is so representative example since it is quite short and in chronological order. Very unfortunate for those who have good anlysis discussion going on.

      These speculations are any way more of interest and keeping both sides supported, but final truths may come in form of court trial or products in market…

      • Michael W Wolf

        Apparently not even products on the market will do. It will take market saturation I am afraid. Which is ok, but the affect of the so many negative people without proof of their claims only serve to force market saturation as the only path. But that will delay it for years. Sad but the very people claiming Rossi is keeping it from the world are the ones causing it to be kept from the world.

        • Argon

          You could be right I’m not specialist on this area, but if ballpark estimation of smaller cats would be about $500. Thats in range of Hoverboards, e-bicycles etc. which of course are more tangible and easy to prove to be working, but in the other hand they are just toys, whereas e-cats, if real, promises substantial savings to buyer.
          There is missing safety certification, I know, but still comparing the time it took Hover boards, e-bicycles etc to be seen all around (after Segway had paved a way). Maybe not comparable, but question is relevant only after e-cat really works.

    • psi2u2

      ” it’s fraud until proven otherwise. No middle ground for critical thinking.”

      Huh? How do you figure that? Not even IH has alleged “fraud.” I think it would be a good idea to avoid making legal accusations. False legal accusations are slander ipso facto. That is why a good lawyer will tell you to wait until a judge or jury determines something like that.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Andrew is talking about the skeptics. They don’t need proof to slander Rossi, but demand it from him. It is ok to demand proof from Rossi, be we demand they be consist in their cries for proof by first having proof before they slander Rossi.

        • psi2u2

          Sorry, my bad for reading too fast. I agree.

  • Anon2012_2014

    “Probably you did not understand that there is a war against us.”

    This is a hand waiving paranoid statement, as are the terms puppetteers, clowns, snakes, etc…

    Just show a working ECAT of the last design in public and answer the technical weakness in the presentation that are point out with open discourse followed corrections to the technical weakness.

    Or keep talking about puppetteers. How much longer will this talk go on?

  • catfish

    There aren’t many metal-foam or catalytic converter manufacturers in the UK. BM Catalyst maybey?

    • wpj

      Sorry, but these people buy the catalyst material from companies such as JM; they just put the metal bits around it.

  • SG

    I actually agree with you (I was referring to every *thing* else, not people). LENR will increase the importance of people in that sense.

  • SG

    Well, we should remember that the paid-for tester was for a private contractual purpose–it wasn’t for us or the public. Mr. Rossi has now shifted his attention to providing products in the marketplace–something he has longed to do for quite some time, but with bumps along the road. Those who purchase them can put them to the test. There is no better independent testing than that which will be performed by those who purchase the e-Cat for themselves.

  • e-dog

    if either of these people have something that could save the world…. and they are holding on to it for a profit… they suck big time..

    • e-dog

      yes, they are horrible people.
      they care more about money and power than the planet..very simple
      do you disagree?

      • Roland

        Gee, let’s tell everybody, no charge, on the planet how to build E-cats. Exactly who do you think would end up with the power and money?

        One outcome seems overwhelmingly likely; it sure won’t be you Dog…

        • georgehants

          Roland, could it ever be made possible that it would be those that need it most?

          • Michael W Wolf

            Nope. It will be the greedy capitalist pig that will get it to the most needy the quickest. But it has been so stigmatized, the likes of bill gates wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.

          • georgehants

            Micheal, thanks for your opinion.

  • LCD

    How much was the plant, can we as a group buy one and have MFMPs test it?

    • cashmemorz

      One million plus. Any takers? Risky if it doesn’t work without a Leonardo trained technician.

  • wpj

    Ecat is trademarked by Leonardo as it “the new fire”.

    • Brent Buckner

      IF IH retains its license then perhaps under the License Agreement it would have the right to use the trademark (I see that Section 13.4 includes trademarks).

      • wpj

        Oh, dear!

        • georgehants

          peacelovewoodstock, ha, to long a name, can I shorten it to peace?
          thanks for the correction, now I can only say that “the report is critically important and like many on these pages I hope, I feel that it is to important to be delayed by childish arguments over money etc.on either side.

          • psi2u2

            “there really is no reason for the secrecy.”

            There could be quite a few, including the privacy of the customer, who probably would prefer not to have hordes of snooping journalists and government inspection officials trooping in and out of his business.

          • psi2u2

            I think we should distinguish between proof and evidence. They are not the same thing. Neither side in the discussion, imho, have proof. Both sides have evidence and the debate is really about the quality of the evidence.

          • DrD

            Without money George, you won’t have any LENR. There’s nothing childish about it. We all need to live and to give you your LENR will take millions.

          • georgehants

            DrD, you are being led to believe that money is necessary when simple logic shows that only manpower leading to production and services are of any importance to this World.

          • cashmemorz

            Since we are all(practically speaking) conditioned to accept money for our efforts at work then that can make the world a little illogical in terms of ideal expectations.
            It ok to be an idealist but practical considerations curtail full expression of idealism. Most of the time I’m afraid.

          • Alan DeAngelis
  • wpj

    Actually, the more I look at this, the more it makes sense for JM to use this in “sponge metal” production and keep quiet about it.

    These “sponge metals” (otherwise known as Raney Ni, etc, but “Raney” is a trade mark) are commodity products and there are many competitors, including several Chinese companies. Given the cheap price, one of the major cost contributors to the production process is going to be the energy needed to dissolve out the aluminium from the alloy.

    The leaching process is done in water at about 90 degrees C. It is probable, then, that the ecat could both heat the water for direct introduction into the reactor and then use part of the heat (steam) to maintain the temperature externally. Given that water takes a huge amount of energy to heat, then the energy input is really going to be a large cost factor.

    Using the ecats for the production process would significantly improve the cost economics in this process, so it’s no wonder that they want to keep quiet and get a jump on the competition.

    • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

      Yes, if we are right in that JMC is the customer you probably would be right about your guess.

      If i were the customer and have a product that i can sell, lets say, for 100$ and my cost to get it were 70$ i wont say a simple word if i could halve my cost to 40$.
      I simply would be silent as many time as i could and get the profit in the mean time until the competitors discover the trick.

      Maybe someone could find where JMC has already plants. I would be glad to check them in google maps (as they currently should be without the E-CAT containers)

      • Hi all

        The size of the plants has reduced and the next ones will almost certainly be smaller, and may no longer need to be in a container. Looking for containers would be fruitless. Even if they are still using containers, there are millions of them and the one JM used was hidden inside the factory.

        Kind Regards walker

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          Maybe we should try to contact JMC and ask directly to them. Maybe the one on phone if unaware may make a mistake if we ask.
          Are you happy with the new energy bill after the E-Cat was installed?

      • menos50

        Look for this company…in Britain

        http://chemicals.matthey.com/

  • Mats002

    I’ve got a mail from Mats Lewan, because the ERV report wasn’t published in time (and rumors that IH did not accept it I guess) he makes a pull if the seminar should be hold anyway. I have not responded yet. If MFMP repeat the signal that is a Yes, but otherwize? Hmm…

    • Mats predicated the conference on a positive report. Not only do we not have any report at all yet, we know that its results are being contested in a lawsuit. Mats should bail.

      This is not the Grand Opening of the LENR era just yet.

      • Mats002

        Or maybe – Me356 just reported:

        Today I have tried to verify my latest findings – to find if I can get excess heat with 1 year old stuff that was used/designed for Parkhomov replication. Result: Yes, it is.
        Fuel was completely prepared today in a few minutes.

        Now I am able to turn the excess heat on and off on will. This is something that allows me perfect verification and comparison.
        Achieved COP was only around 1.5, yet I didn’t expected to be high as with my other reactors.

        See https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1275-me356-Reactor-parameters/?postID=16780#post16780

        If he can show this on stage I will be there!

        • Yes, I’m aware of me356’s exciting developments. But they should be categorized as preliminary. He has not published anything subject to peer review (to my knowledge) and his replication kits that he wants to send out still don’t exist.

          Kind of thin info on which to base a symposium.

          There is certainly enough to talk about and explore if Mats just wants to have a LENR get-together. But I think it was meant to be a loud and proud coming out party and he’s not going to be able to deliver that.

          • Mats002

            A cocktail party for the inner circle will do 😉

          • US_Citizen71

            My only worry about me356’s current work is that he might have turned his resistance heater into an induction heater by changing the input power frequency. If true the core would become much hotter quickly and act very much like his video shows. Like many other experiments he needs to verify with calorimetry.

          • Yes. Careful science requires analyzing all possible ways to explain the experimental data.

            I’m excited though about the way he talks about the entire gamut of his experiments. He talks like he’s beyond confident that he’s got over unity, can trigger it by various means and has seen temperatures high enough to melt his reactors.

          • That’s possible. Its also possible though that an induction field at a particular frequency actually initiates LENR. There are some videos posted here a few months back that show the results produced by a Ukrainian group that claims reproducible excess heat using an induction reactor design (sorry I don’t have time at the moment to find them).

          • US_Citizen71

            I remember the video and do not disagree that an oscillating field might be a trigger. If hydrogen is ionized a changing field would cause it to be accelerated and move around as the field changes polarity which could cause the hydrogen to impact a lithium atom with enough force to fuse.

            My pet idea of a “Lithium Vapor Light” http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/08/thoughts-on-alpha-and-beta-nickel-hydride-formation-in-e-cat-replication-hank-mills/#comment-2613986912 would in my mind cause hydrogen ions to alternately be drawn to either electrode. The lithium vapor would be suspended in the arc and if ionized should be drawn to the opposite electrode that the hydrogen ions are. Hopefully they would meet head-on and cause fusion between the two.

            My concern about me356’s video is that he has a coil with what I assume is high current running through it. If the frequency is tuned correctly it should be able to act like an induction heater. Also the video looks much like the effect seen here:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ipZ4vdivbU

      • SG

        There is a report (undisputed). By all accounts, it is a positive report (apparently even IH admits this through Jed). The legal posturing actually adds to the legitimacy of the report. Let the symposium go forward. There will be A LOT to discuss. Hope to see you there.

  • There’s a post on vortex by Patrick Ellul that I think deserves more discussion:

    —————-
    So IH invested in Brillouin (BEC).
    BEC’s team seems to have strengthened a lot.
    http://brillouinenergy.com/about/leadership/
    It includes Carl Page.
    McKubre is effectively an insider to IH.
    He/his team is probably the one who convinced IH that Rossi’s thing does
    not work.
    BEC is obviously in direct competition with Leonardo Corp (LC).
    IH have chosen BEC over LC.
    Jed and McKubre are good acquaintances.
    Just saying.
    Regards.
    —————–

    It’s entirely possible that people associated with Brillouin have been working against Rossi’s interest once they were both part of Industrial Heat. It’d be entirely natural for them for them to angle toward being the main LENR commercialization vehicle for IH and look the part more so than Leonardo. Rossi, sleeping days and working every night in the crates was basically invisible in the office politics of IH.

    • wpj

      I’m sure that these will the the fabled “experts” who have diss’d the report.

      • If McKubre/SRI/Godes tried to replicate E-Cats and failed and then also found what they think are glaring errors or ambiguities in the ERV report it would explain Industrial Heat’s behavior.

        Then the question would reduce to are they right or are they wrong.

      • BillH

        That would be a conflict of interest since BEC has a competing product. regardless if they have an actual link with IH.

        • wpj

          If we believe the court documents, then all Rossi’s IP was supplied to BEC. Big, “if”, but maybe possible.

    • Jarea

      Mckubre is a scientist. He has extense LENR knowledge and i didn’t expect that he would take part on this company and money battle. He has not probably directly tested the device from Rossi and maybe only received information about IH for replication. As Scientist, I would just avoid biased affirmations and just expose facts. However, this is not happening here in this battle. We just hide proven facts and do affirmations based on third persons and secret information.
      I would just focus on the work for a LENR product and then let the market decide if Brillouin or Leonardo is better.

    • Jed downplaying these suppositions:

      —————

      “I do not know of any evidence that McKubre
      evaluated Rossi, or that McKubre is an insider at I.H. He is definitely not
      my “good acquaintance,” although I do have great respect for him and I have
      carefully read everything he has published.”

      • artefact

        (Jed did not know about the Woodford investment nore the 200 million from the Chinese investor. He is a bit outdated of the current happenings.
        That is not direcly related to your post)

  • psi2u2

    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2016/04/apr-11-2016-how-to-finish-vuca-orgy-now.html

    “What must be done is the to verify the presence of isotopic shifts in the spent fuel. (N.T. and to show the trends of the shifts – increasing after 10), 200, 300 days when samples were taken, is there logic and consistency).

    I f the effect exists than with certainty the device- energy source will be realized.what must be done is the to verify the presence of isotopic shifts in the spent fuel. (N.T. and to show the trends of the shifts – increasing after 10), 200, 300 days when samples were taken, is there logic and consistency).

    I f the effect exists than with certainty the device- energy source will be realized.”

    Has anyone in the current IH-Rossi saga commented on this question?

    • All due respect to Peter we were past that point. Lugano had isotopic shifts. Rossi was conducting a one year proving out of an actual product before mass production.

      We were past basic R&D and prototyping and into pre-industrialization.

      We’re still there according to Rossi.

      • psi2u2

        I disagree. Are you saying that isotopic measurements were not taken during the 1 year test? That seems unlikely. We’ve heard that the cop was > 6 or even > 50. Did the test detect isotopic shifts corresponding to these cops? It seems like a simple question that ought to be asked.

        [the quote was by a guest poster, not Peter — sorry for not making that clear].

        • We’re told they were taking ash samples and testing them.

          I would hope that info would be in the report, but it might be deemed too commercially sensitive.

          • psi2u2

            Thanks for that detail. I understand the details are perhaps highly sensitive. But even a confirmation that significant transmutation took place would be a useful contribution to what is known.

          • SG

            It would be tough for IH to admit to isotopic shifts from the 1 year test, no matter how careful they preserve the provenance. It would be a contradiction, and so instead, they will most likely attempt to explain it away. (Remember the slight of hand hypothesis raised by Lugano detractors?)

          • Andreas Moraitis

            You do not need the sleight-of-hand hypothesis, which is indeed ridiculous. But if all found isotopes were natural, as in the Lugano ash analysis, the apparent shifts could result from a fractionation process – which does of course not mean that this is the only possible explanation. Transmutations of one element into another or the presence of isotopes that do not occur in nature would provide much better evidence.

          • SG

            Can you provide a source that discusses the possibility and/or proposed mechanism of isotope fractionanation in the Lugano test? Sincere question.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            It has been discussed here on ECW and elsewhere. Isotopic fractionation is a very well known phenomenon, I guess you can find plenty of information via Google. To be sure that fractionation is not the reason for the shifts you would have to analyze the complete ash. Dissolve it in acid, mix everything thoroughly and then take your samples. In Lugano, only tiny parts of the ash have been analyzed.

          • SG

            Thank you for pointing that out, and not being an expert in these matters, can only assume that what you say is accurate. What is puzzling though is why the Lugano scientists, who are experts in this area, did not mention this as a possible explanation of their results?

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            How to explain the isotopic fractionation Ni shift? Errors measuring temperature inside the reactor? Or carbonyl formation processes Ni?

    • DrD

      Isotopic shift is not fusion

      • psi2u2

        I understand that. But the existence of isotopic shift is identified in the quotation as an essential indication of weak force nuclear events and therefore indisputable evidence for LENR. It seems to me that the evidence suggests that both this and sometimes actual fusion are taking place in these experiments (MFMP got hits on their neutron detector in recent runs).

        • DrD

          Yes, that’s reasonable.

      • Warthog

        It depends on which isotopes and which shifts. (Note….I used to do neutron activation analysis). And no, it “isn’t” fusion, but can be evidence of same.

      • LCD

        He’s talking about the first three. That’s normal. At this point you can’t impregnate three women and have 1 baby in 3 months. Just don’t work that way.

  • georgehants

    g, sorry that you also have no interest if Cold Fusion gets to the people that need it most.

  • psi2u2

    Steve, review e-dog’s contribution to the discussion. He’s very quick to ridicule and condemn. These seem to be his two styles of commenting.

  • georgehants

    Steve, you seem to be suggesting that if it is all genuine it must be locked in a steel container and dropped into the Mariana Trench.
    Would not the idea of release and prove the discovery be better.

  • Barbierir

    “Dr Andrea Rossi, What’s you estimation of the time it will take for building, shipping
    and installing the 3 plants at the customer’s facilities? Is it doable
    before the end of the year or much sooner? my regards, Renzo”

    “I foresee 180 working days.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R”

    • Michael W Wolf

      Gees, that is very disturbing. I don’t blame Rossi though. Mills will do it first if what Rossi says is true.

      • Huh?

        • It was reported a while ago that Industrial Heat had invested in Brillouin Energy.

          I don’t have a link handy but I’m sure with enough reading/googling of past threads that you can find it on this site.

          • wpj

            Andrea Rossi

            April 7, 2016 at 8:32 PM

            Hank Mills:

            They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.

            I just teached to them what to do.

            They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

            Now, let me talk to you of a very singular coincidence: Brillouin has always made only electrolytic apparatuses: go to read all their patent applications made before their agreement with IH, and you will find confirmation of what I am saying ( I know their patents by heart, because I have studied them and probably I know them better than themselves : I wrote about 100 pages of notes about their patents ). And now the singular coincidence: they make the agreement with IH in April 2015, and Voilà, they made a public demo in Capitol Hill ( Washington, DC) with a device that is the Copy-Cat of something I am familiar with. Nothing that Brillouin has ever made before the agreement with IH. What a coincidence !!!

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

      • Barbierir

        This is more or less what I expected, since the plants are still built by people and Rossi previously said that no robot from ABB has been installed yet. A mass production factory will take another year.

      • timycelyn

        What can Mills do?

        Must admit I’ve not been following him – seen them as an also-ran….

        • He can make a very bright light with the new improved sparky thing, which now burns silver and hydrogen in an arc.

          Sadly no actual data on input/output seems to be available.

          • timycelyn

            Ah – that one! I was never too impressed over that approach. just seemed impractical, too laboratory somehow, whatever the physical rights and wrongs of the process involved.

    • Pweet

      Would now be a good time to remind people that according to the various e-cat web sites, (Leonardo and licensees), the 1MW plants have been available for years now with a three month (90 day) delivery quoted.
      However, when an actual delivery request has been forthcoming, a 1MW plant has not been made available, in spite of numerous follow up requests.
      This has occurred more than once but it was only Prometeon which made it public by way of an open letter. From the tone of the letter, they were not at all impressed.

      I would be hard pressed to place much faith in a delivery time table at the best of times, and in view of present circumstances, this is far from the best of times.
      I think the 180 days is just a number used to answer a question in a hopefully confident and impressive sounding way.

  • georgehants

    Steve, your argument is a non-starter, there is no proof generally available that they have brought the units.
    I therefore do not have to justify myself, if you have proof please put the link on page.

  • georgehants

    g, then I take it you agree that finding a new, fairer and better system should be a priority for us all.

  • georgehants

    If there is no capitalism to “rape the World” then none of your fears could happen.
    I have never implied, but said many times that Mr.Rossi should be very well rewarded by society, as should all those that do so, but not the parasitic rich and powerful, etc.
    It is good that you seem to agree with me.

  • georgehants

    BillH, you neglect the millions in this World including in the US and UK etc. that suffer from the system that you support, just to make some obscenely rich.
    I respect your chosen view, please give me the respect of not agreeing with you

    • Warthog

      LOL. Capitalist countries enjoy the highest standards of living in the world, not just for the very wealthy, but at all levels.

      Third world countries that have adopted capitalism have rapidly improved standards of living for their entire population(s) (ideal sociological/economic “twin” study….North Korea vs. South Korea).

      Countries that have NOT adopted capitalism have either stagnated or become poorer, even if starting wealthy (Venezuela).

      These are FACTS, not theory.

      Are there still poor people in the USA….you betcha. I work with them often with the SVDP. But the simple fact is that they are poor largely because they made bad choices.or had a severe run of bad luck…..not because some “evil capitalist got richer”.

      • georgehants

        Could you give any reason why in America 15 million children are underfed etc.
        Are you saying they do not matter, or could you see your way clear to join in the call to improve the system for all.
        ——–
        In the United States today, 15 million children face hunger. Consequently, one in five kids are facing greater obstacles to reaching their fullest potential. The future of America lies in our children. When hunger threatens the future of a child, it threatens the future of our nation as well.
        http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hunger/child-hunger/

        • Warthog

          In my experience, mostly because their parents made bad choices (remember, I am taking food, money, and knowledge to these folks on a weekly basis from the food bank I help run). And given the destruction of the American educational system by socialist and politically correct airheads, that is not likely to change in the near future.

          And no, I am not about to join in some nebulous undefined handwaving to “improve the system for all”. Unless and until you and those of your ilk can define in detail exactly what those changes need to be and how they will work, count me out. I’ll just keep on doing what I do to actually help out.

          I don’t think that you and those like you have sufficient smarts to design such a system. ALL government-run systems FAIL at some level because they simply cannot handle the huge COMPLEXITY of modern society. This is why socialism and communism will simply never work. “Someday” a superior system to capitalism may come about, but it will EVOLVE FROM CAPITALISM, just as capitalism evolved from feudalism.

  • georgehants

    Where is the report, there is not the slightest need for either side to keep it secret before the trial, it is not going to change.
    It would though hopefully lead to many for people getting involved in Cold Fusion Research to bring Cold Fusion to those that most need it.

    • psi2u2

      I can think of very good reasons why both sides would not want to release the report yet.

      • Anon2012_2014

        “I can think of very good reasons why both sides would not want to release the report yet.”

        OK. Let’s hear them!

        • psi2u2

          1) the customer prefers privacy at this time. That’s how I would feel if I were the customer.

          2) Releasing the report could be interpreted by a court as [further?] violation of a contract agreement between the parties and prejudice the trial outcome against the releaser;

          3) Releasing the report would give the other side some possible advantage in court (for example, Rossi releases the report and then all attention will be focused on attacking or defending the report, while Rossi’s real objective is commercialization);

          4) Releasing the report will result in the issues being fought out in the press and therefore create conditions for problems with finding the jury and preventing them from being influenced by factors not in evidence in the court proceedings.

          I’d like to see the report as much as anyone, but those claiming there are not good reasons why we might not see it aren’t, imho, really considering the problem from the POV of the customer, Rossi, or IH.

          • georgehants

            My question was framed in reference to the importance of Cold Fusion being shown to the World, in answer
            1, there is no need to release the customers name just the report.
            2, I cannot comment.
            3, The report is the report, it is either genuine or false, only that matters, not what any possibly corrupt court decides. it can only be proven with repetition

          • kdk

            They were going for a jury case.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            5) neither side might benefit from publication if customers are already queueing up,
            6) if the report is signed by a freelancer and not an organisation, it won’t convince many of those who are currently sceptics.

          • georgehants

            Pekka, My question was framed in reference to the importance of Cold Fusion being shown to the World, in answer
            5, just having Rossi and IH producing products does not help the early distribution of the technology (if genuine)
            6, who the report is signed by is irrelevant, only if it encourages more Researchers to enter the field and move Cold Fusion forward matters.

          • artefact

            6. Rossi (/ IH) will not want more competition. (Busines view)

          • Mike Rion

            The worlds needs, or desires, for clean energy will not even be a factor in this situation. When this much money and power is at stake that will be the main, if not only motivator. It may take years before this all shakes out, not unlike the battle between Tesla and Edison more than 100 years ago.

          • psi2u2

            Perhaps, but there’s an internet now. Does that make a difference? Maybe not, but maybe it does to. We don’t know.

          • Mike Rion

            The internet certainly serves as a forum for folks who feel strongly about humanitarian considerations, but that and five dollars will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Don’t be fooled. The world runs on money and power (no pun intended), not good intentions. It’s nothing new, it’s always been that way and always will be. If nothing else call it the basic human condition. There are plenty of folks on this forum who clearly see this as ecological salvation, but, in the end, that aspect will have little effect on how this plays out. But don’t despair. Its corrupt and messy, but it usually comes right, in the end.

          • psi2u2

            Well I think we don’t really know. For example, what is the implication of the fact that MFMP and other experimenters are regularly posting video and data streams in their replications, and sharing ideas, almost instantaneously sometimes, across great distances, all with a dedication to open LENR science? That is a pretty remarkable thing in itself.

    • deleo77

      Or where is the sales brochure where the customer says “I saved x amount of dollars on my power bill by using the e-cat.” The customer could remain unamed. If they bought 3 then they must have saved a bunch of money. How much?

    • Omega Z

      Unless it’s exposed in court, the report is still covered by NDA.

      There is a claim of breach of contract, but until the court rules breach or not breach, all agreements and NDA’s are still in effect or frozen in time.

      However, this effects only Leonardo/Rossi vs Industrial heat/Darden. Rossi can move forward in areas that do not involve Industrial heats licensed areas. Thus Rossi can go ahead with R&D and early sales on his turf.

  • winebuff67

    I think we’ll need someone else to bring this to the market. Rossi is just not capable of bringing a product to market IMHO.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

      • LCD

        Totally agree.

        Look up how long bloom energy took.

        Takes time guys

        • LCD

          However having said that. If rossi has a ready to go design, then I have to believe he is going about it the wrong way.

          I though IH was an investor, they were not. He needs to raise money through VCs and attack the market.

          • LCD

            If his tech is that good I have 10 -20 VCs with billions of dollars in funds I can call to fund him on a series A immediately.

          • LCD

            Come to silicon Valley AR

  • artefact
    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      very sad, this is.

    • georgehants

      Understandable when two sides cannot even agree on if a machine has a COP of zero or 50, in the UK the name Monty Python would come up.

      • Mats002

        The bird IS alive!

        • Gerrit

          it’s pining for the fjords

          • Steve H

            Them were the days.
            Lived in shoe box int gutter

  • Gerrit

    Nobody (but Rossi and very likely IH) knows who the entity from the UK is. Or am I missing something. Do you know who the entity is ?

  • Gerrit

    Yes, once upon a time the line “Rossi says” became old. Then IH entered the scene and there was much rejoicing.

    Now we went even further back than the “Rossi says” era. We have nothing, currently. This could change when the customer reveals himself, but that won’t happen anytime soon and might not happen at all.

  • psi2u2

    Fair enough. You get stars for rational skepticism. 😉

  • psi2u2

    Hopefully during that 180 days we will have other relevant news.

  • wpj

    He said that that there are 30000 parts, so it could rake a while.

  • cashmemorz

    In actual world, as it is terms, its not possible since not ALL desire this, in particular those who control the money=power. VERY hard to get around this obstacle. To do anything worthwhile in such an environment, money is required to get anything done. By the time one gets enough money the goal tends to shift from the ideal goal to the money itself.

    • g

      History is creation. There *are* ways to get around this obstacle. Noone says it is an easy task. But it is doable.

  • cashmemorz

    You will not be answered if you start asking pointed questions. You will get a run around. That is how businesses handle delicate matters. Even if you know some one inside the business. It would have to be deep inside close to the top management or principles. At that point you would be an insider and would be careful as well.

  • Mike Rion

    true

  • Omega Z

    It takes time to train people. Possibly it could take more then 180 days because training slows the current trained personnel on the current task.

  • psi2u2

    Agreed.

  • Josh G

    I imagine it will take 1/3 to 1/2 of the time to ship and install and get up and running . . .

  • Josh G

    They also have to ship, install and get up and running in that time…

  • SteveA

    Assuming the design is complete he probably has a ~3 month procurement period to get all the parts in house. After that it would be build, test and ship. The procurement is almost always the longest and is usually quite difficult to shorten significantly. I would assume he would want to run several weeks of testing to understand the variability on a new product. That could conceivably be done at the customer.

  • Build the one and ship, 80 days.
    Build next one and ship,60 days.
    Build next one and ship 40 days.
    On site team install as each unit arrives.

    • Omega Z

      I’m curious about the container size. Rossi’s pilot plant contained 52 20KW reactor setup.

      In addition was the 4-250KW reactors that were actually used.
      A 20 foot container could easily hold 5 or 6 of these 1 megawatt(4-250KW reactors) systems as each is fairly small..

  • Pweet

    I ordered two. Why not? He wasn’t asking for any money up front so it didn’t cost me anything, and at the time I thought there was a reasonable chance it was all true.
    I gave up the next year and bought a reverse cycle aircon plus a wood fire heater for winter.
    It was a good choice otherwise I would still be here freezing my nuts off in winter time.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    I think it’s impossible for a commercial company to have a transformative device operating successfully on their premises providing heat for an industrial purpose at an industrial level for a year without anyone finding out about it and leaking the story to the press (and disclosing the name of the company doing it). We’re talking about a device that would transform the world–in fact save the world with cheap, pollution-free energy. Yet no one in that company has revealed what happened during the year of operation and what is planned to happen in the near future. No leaks? None at all? For something like this? Give me a break. Something is wrong.

    • there is leak but controlled, like the one reported by Mats.
      none from a “civilian” who says his boss is crazy having an LENR reactor near his office.

      this can happen if there is no “civilian”, ie if all participant are LENR aware and warned not to leak.

      This supports either a really secret heating source in the factory, with only LC team and few bosses aware…
      or if the company is fake
      or if the reactor is an hollywood stage…

      some says that whatever they say, finding a company that accept to run this nuclear reactor without a license, a certification, is improbable, and the the certification is improbable too, since US gov is aware of what is happening. (It is I know).

      • Fibber McGourlick

        Good reply. Thanks.

      • Observer

        And what regulatory agency has authority? No radioactive elements going in, no radioactive elements going out, no external radiation.

        The major regulatory hurdles are do to with the fact it is a boiler.

        • right, and no certification getting in or out either.
          see no cert, hear no cert, say no cert…

          I know it is crazy, but it is mainstream.

          you won’t nee a cert, but will not have any cert.
          and industrialist will ask for one, even just a dummy one.

          • Omega Z

            People tend to get all uptight about certifications and such.

            This is primarily an issue when something is a general consumer product left in an unattended state with no expert personnel present to monitor it. Possibly in a home full of children.

            Industrial use is quite different. If no radioactive materials are used or produced, a basic safety certificate will suffice. Even should radiated emissions be present. it’s not a problem as long as shielded.

            Surprisingly to most, there are many business that use products that even use radioactive materials everyday. It’s quite common among fossil energy concerns. And at the end of the day, these devices may only be locked up in a tool box in the back of a truck.

            Industry has something the consumer doesn’t. Trained personnel available should there be a problem. In Fact, I’ll bet I could probably build a Nuclear Power plant within just a couple miles of a city should I have the properly trained personnel on hand. 🙂

            As to boilers and heat exchangers. This is all old stuff that is pretty much set in stone. The only real issue here is having an inspector come in to see that everything was properly setup and properly connected. A good pipe fitter is well versed in this. It’s a minor formality.