Photos of 1MW Plant Address

Thanks to Radius11 for heading over to the presumed address of where the 1MW E-Cat plant test took place and taking some pictures. The address is 7861 NW 46th St, Doral, FL 33166, and the pictures are below (originally posted as a comment on this thread: http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/24/mats-lewan-receives-an-electric-bill-for-1mw-test-customer/#comment-2648716420

The name JM Products is prominent on the front and back doors, so it would certainly seem to be the right place. At first glance there’s not really too much to see, but no doubt the photos will keep some of our armchair sleuths busy for many hours!

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  • LuFong

    Thanks for doing this! Just think radius11, if the rumors are true that there is a padlocked 1MW plant behind those doors, then you’ve come closer to an E-Cat than anybody here!

    The obvious questions for you gumshoe: any signs of life? Did you knock on the door or talk to the neighbors? How about rummaging through the trash? (I’m not sure if I would have done the last one.) Again, thanks for doing this.

    • Sanjeev

      Dumpster diving is a common method of uncovering information, including passwords, emails (printed), faulty HDs etc etc.
      https://www.techopedia.com/definition/10267/dumpster-diving

      • LuFong

        Historic hand-drawn pictures of E-Cat QuarkX?

        • e-dog

          My first thought when I saw the dumpster was.. whats in it??? maybe some radio isotopes? some busted reactor housings? broken lab equipment?failed proto types… or piles of rotting baloney?

          • Pweet

            Failed duck recipes perhaps?
            The early research was done during all nigh vigils while minding the 1MW plant.

          • Engineer48

            Paying $1,000 per day for 24MWh of heat is expensive duck.

          • Pweet

            Yes, but it would be very well cooked.

          • Engineer48

            Maybe just rubbish?

        • Gerard McEk

          I do not seen any location where you can enter a full size container into the building, so I doubt this is the right location where the test took place.
          Besides that, would such a small building have a 300 kW connection in the US?

          • Engineer48

            Rear door is 189 pixel wide and the delivery bay door opening is 576 pixel wide or a ratio of 1:3.05. Assuming the external container is 2.45m wide, the read door must be 0.8m wide.

            Would seem that a container will fit through the roll a door opening…

          • Gerard McEk

            Yes, I probably misjudged the size of the roll openings. Never the less, it does not seem a location where JM products produces something, does it? So massive endothermic reactions did probably not happen there. They had to release the 1 MW somewhere. Maybe Radius11 can find out if there has been a big heat exchanger outside during the test period. It looks that JM products just provided the test location. It does not make AR more believable….. He said that JM products has now ordered 3 units, based on this test, so they must be convinced, but are they? A COP of 50 should be extremely easy to verify.

          • Engineer48

            Gerard,

            Comnercial endothermic product manufacturers go to extremes to limit system thermal losses as every kWh radiated / lost is 1 kWh of lost endothermic production.

            Ideal production has no thermal losses and every kWh of heat energy received is embodied into the endothermic product.

            As I calculated, 1MWh of heat could melt 10.7m^3 of ice without raising the surrounding temperatures 1C. Maybe hard to understand/accept but that is endothermic reality.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I assumed that the rear access door is 36″ X 84″ (Typical of commercial buildings). From that, I estimate the rolling door to be 96″ wide by 115″ tall. Just enough to fit a standard shipping container at 8′ wide by 9′ 6″ tall. SHipping containers dimensions from this site:

            http://www.sjonescontainers.co.uk/container/dimensions.asp

          • TVulgaris

            12′ is a very typical bay width.

            300kW service is perhaps a medium commercial load (more on the lower end of medium).

          • Omega Z

            6000 square foot warehouse, 20 foot ceilings.
            Appears to be 9` x 11` foot bay doors. Plenty of room to insert a shipping container.
            300 KW electrical service is no big issue for a commercial facility.

            22 KW service is minimum for residential electrical service in the U.S..
            I have 44 KW service to my home.

          • Gerard McEk

            Interesting. I have three phase 25A 230/400V (17.25KW) standard is 1 phase 40A/230V (9kW) in the Netherlands. Do you electrically heat the house? In the Netherlands natural gas is installed in 99% of all houses (heating/cooking).

          • Omega Z

            Natural gas heat.

            Was going to upgrade an old house 2 phase 60A 110/220 (13.2KW) to standard 2 phase 100A 110/220 (22KW), determined it only cost $30 more for wire & hardware to go with 200A 110/220 (44KW) entry service which is becoming common.

            That additional $30 provides a lot of future flexibilty later should the need arrise. However, if this seems a little overboard, consider there are whole house 2 bath electric on demand water heaters that require near 60KW.

      • It’d be good to know whether Alf Stokes is a real lawyer, a fake name for a real lawyer or a figment of Peter’s imagination. In any case what interested me was most was Rossi’s reaction.

        • NCkhawk

          Peter has just confirmed that Alf isn’t real and that the post was satire.

          • Where? Not seeing it.

            A relief in a way cause the arguments by Alf were bordering nonsensical.

          • Engineer48

            Guess you have never seen a container unloaded from a low loader?

  • Guilherme

    Amazing, I know the owner of Rontan, the neighbour. It is a brazilian company focused on car signaling equipment with a small operation in the US.

    • Timar

      That’s great news! Please, please, please, ask them what was going on with their neighbours during the last 12 months…

      • e-dog

        Second that!

  • Mike Henderson

    I see that “Maximum Loading Level” doesn’t get much respect, either. That dumpster has a COP > 1.

  • Mike Henderson

    We’d really like to see where the power enters the building, exterior meters, etc. to get a sense of the electrical service(s) to the building and this suite.

    I see that “Maximum Loading Level” doesn’t get much respect, either. That dumpster has a COP > 1.

  • Timar

    That’s great news! Please, please, please, ask them what was going on with their neighbours during the last 12 months…

    • e-dog

      Second that!

  • Ophelia Rump

    Where is the loading dock with Dottore Rossi on it?

    At some other site.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Where is the loading dock with Dottore Rossi on it?

    At some other site.

    • orsobubu

      Ophelia, I like your “Dottore Rossi” hehe
      but if you permit: when you want to write only “the doctor” , without Rossi, you will write: “il Dottore”, with final -e, ie: “it seems to me il Dottore is on vacation”, when you want to write “doctor Rossi” you will write “il Dottor Rossi”, without final -e, ie: “it seems to me il Dottor Rossi is on vacation”. in both cases, you can drop “il” (the, pronounced like “eel”) if you want a less literal traduction 🙂

  • sam

    World waste recycling is 14 minutes from
    there near Miami airport.
    Tried phoning but just message machine.

    • Obvious

      Gonna get them to send the trash to your place..?

      • sam

        If it had some clues to the Ecat
        test I would take it.
        I drive a truck and have driven
        roll off trucks so maybe I will
        pick up.I will need a tarp.
        Frank can you ask A.R. next
        time to have his people not to
        over fill container.
        Who ever does pick that up
        will be upset.

        • Obvious

          Only one way to find out…
          These sorts of chances don’t come along often.
          No guts, no glory

    • Engineer48

      You got an answering machine????
      What did it say?
      What number did you use?
      When I tried as attached, the phone just rings out and is never answered.

      • sam

        18449675301 had to let ring quite a few times.
        just said leave a message.
        Better if you call again i am not from US.

  • sam

    World waste recycling is 14 minutes from
    there near Miami airport.
    Tried phoning but just message machine.

    • Obvious

      Gonna get them to send the trash to your place..?

      • sam

        If it had some clues to the Ecat
        test I would take it.
        I drive a truck and have driven
        roll off trucks so maybe I will
        pick up.I will need a tarp.
        Frank can you ask A.R. next
        time to have his people not to
        over fill container.
        Who ever does pick that up
        will be upset.

        • Obvious

          Only one way to find out…
          These sorts of chances don’t come along often.
          No guts, no glory

    • Engineer48

      You got an answering machine????
      What did it say?
      What number did you use?
      When I tried as attached, the phone just rings out and is never answered.

      • sam

        18449675301 had to let ring quite a few times.
        just said leave a message.
        Better if you call again i am not from US.

  • Ged

    Huh. At first glace, place looks pretty much dead (don’t even see a light on at this angle?). But looking in front of the door, one can see a lot of dirt being dragged directly to and from the door. That makes it look like there’s more foot traffic than Rontan gets–or at least messier traffic.

    Dunno for certain, that is just how it looks from those photos. A lot of garbage piling up outside faster than its disposed of too, but who knows where that is originating.

    Thank you Radius11, for these pics!

    • Omega Z

      On the dumpster-

      MAXIMUM LOADING LEVEL

      Some might think Americans can’t read. That’s not it at all. At $150 to $200 dollars a pop dumping fee, we just want to get our moneys worth.

      If it ain’t falling out, it ain’t full. 🙂

  • Ged

    Huh. At first glace, place looks pretty much dead (don’t even see a light on at this angle?). But looking in front of the door, one can see a lot of dirt being dragged directly to and from the door. That makes it look like there’s more foot traffic than Rontan gets–or at least messier traffic.

    Loading docks are also unsealed (unlike Rontan), and one can see dual-tire tracks backing into one of the bays.

    Dunno for certain, that is just how it looks from those photos. A lot of garbage piling up outside faster than its disposed of too, but who knows where that is originating.

    Thank you Radius11, for these pics!

    • Omega Z

      On the dumpster-

      MAXIMUM LOADING LEVEL

      Some might think Americans can’t read. That’s not it at all. At $150 to $200 dollars a pop dumping fee, we just want to get our moneys worth.

      If it ain’t falling out, it ain’t full. 🙂

  • sam

    Would a shipping container fit through
    the doors?Or could they come through
    the roof?

    • Ged

      The doors look like standard shipping container size. Would be a tight fit, but I see trucks with containers en mass every day, and those doors look definitely big enough in these pictures.

      • Engineer48

        Rear door is 189 pixel wide and the delivery bay door opening is 576 pixel wide or a ratio of 1:3.05. Assuming the external container is 2.45m wide, the read door must be 0.8m wide.

        Would seem that a container will fit through the roll a door opening.

  • sam

    Would a shipping container fit through
    the doors?Or could they come through
    the roof?

    • Ged

      The doors look like standard shipping container size. Would be a tight fit, but I see trucks with containers en mass every day, and those doors look definitely big enough in these pictures.

      • Engineer48

        Rear door is 189 pixel wide and the delivery bay door opening is 576 pixel wide or a ratio of 1:3.05. Assuming the external container is 2.45m wide, the read door must be 0.8m wide.

        Would seem that a container will fit through the roll a door opening.

    • Stefenski

      No way large container fit through there. IMO

      It is 1m off the ground to begin with !

      – Would take too much awkward manoeuvring in such a restricted space.

      Then if you could ‘push’ it in there 1m off the ground .. how would they get it out again.

      just my opinion

      • Engineer48

        Guess you have never seen a container delivered? Trust me the hydraulic delivery systems can put a container just about anywhere from anywhere.

  • NCkhawk

    The 1MW system and Rossi’s shop are in the building next door. Hot water or steam were apparently passed thru a holes in the wall (don’t go there) over to “the customer” with a return line back to the 1MW system. In addition to studying power feeds, someone should do the math on the HVAC system for these buildings along with the heat dissipation requirements for a 1MW system running full out for 350 days. My guess is that you could see the resulting heat signature from space but I might be wrong about that. .

    • Mike Henderson

      1MW of steam contains the chemical energy equivalent of burning 26 gallons of diesel fuel per hour.

      • Sanjeev

        Usually there is a huge heat exchanger in such places, you can’t miss it. There is steam and noise of water falling through it. But that’s for steam, if the application only needs hot water and not steam then its possible that the same water is recycled via the plant.
        In any case, it would need a huge water reservoir, and there will be a big bill for water (if its being supplied by a utility and is metered).
        Its possible that this is only a office and the real production is located at some other place.

        • e-dog

          Spot on Sanjeev. 1MW is a lot of energy to use up.

          • Engineer48

            Not if the product or processes use endothermic reactions that suck up and embody the heat energy inside the product.

            Take ice, apply heat, it melts but the temp never increases as the heat energy drives the endothermic phase change that converts ice into water.

          • e-dog

            yep, I guess he could be melting ice in there…

          • Engineer48

            Or the heat energy is driving endothermic processes and final product creation that embody the heat energy as stored chemical bonds.

            The issue that the heat could be seen from space is just not correct and may be intentionally misleading to folks who do not understand why manufacturing companies use heat energy to drive endothermic processes and product.

          • Omega Z

            Engineer48

            Most of those posting lack real world experience and understanding of the process. The heat would be transitioned in the process to the product. In a closed loop system, all that would be losted would be heat radiated from any plumbing or equipment not insulated. There simply would not be much waste heat to be seen.

            1MW would produce approximately 7 gallons of superheated water between 100`C and 120`C per minute. The specs on the 1MW plant is that it operates between 1 and 2 bars of pressure. If this pressure is maintained throughout the closed loop system, there is only superheated water. No steam.

      • Obvious

        An Astar helicopter burns about a drum of fuel an hour.

      • Omega Z

        Or 0.43 gallons a minute.

    • Winebuff67

      That must be what’s melting the glaciers….

    • Steve Swatman

      Have you guys not actually done all of that, you could release some of your information and save all the guys here a lot of trouble, even save them getting into trouble.

    • Engineer48

      The 1MW plant is in the building next door to JM at 7861? So 7863 or 7859?

      7859 is Rontan North America as per their web site:
      http://www.rontan.com/

      So the plant is installed in 7863 46th Doral?

      Assuming the customer’s product uses endothermic processes, then the heat energy is embodied into the process / product and does not necessarily radiate into space.

      As IH manufactured the plant and its engineers apparently installed and commissioned the plant, they must have had detailed knowledge of the customer’s load as otherwise it could be very difficult to complete the commissioning & integrated testing necessary to make sure the plant properly responds to the customer’s heat energy requirements.

      • NCkhawk

        Glad to see that Frank finally allowed my post – the time lags are frustrating but I understand his concern and caution. I don’t know the specific address for Rossi’s shop but the “customer” is located behind the wall next door. IH engineered and installed the plumbing system and sensors before shipping the 1MW container to Miami. Rossi ripped a lot of that out and replaced with his own system. The rooftop pictures, if those systems are still in place, indicate standard HVAC to me. Rossi’s “heat” had to go somewhere.

        • Engineer48

          The “heat” was used to drive endothermic production processes and/or product production. It was not radiated as that us lost production.

          IH engineers could not have installed the plant without close cooperation with the customer’s engineers.

          • TVulgaris

            Even if it was 100% wasted to the environment, there’s this thing call “air-conditioning” someone else has already mentioned. A 1MWH heat exchanger for a large commercial AC system is about 45 ft^2 (pulled from an online quick calculator for such designs) for some reasonable temperature differentials (100 deg. F for the water, a little less than 40 deg. F for realistic Florida ambient conditions)- I haven’t looked up the degree days for this location for the past year, but certainly a lot of the waste heat could have heated the building for the cooler seasons, and might impact these rough calcs.

        • Ged

          And why didn’t IH reinstall their stuff or verify the new stuff worked right? They built and owned the container, no one not even Rossi could stop them–especially as this was a test for them that they would have to pay for if it was successful. They were there every day.

          This claim doesn’t pass the smell test. At the very least, they’d have to be criminally incompetent.

          • NCkhawk

            Ged – IH trusted engineers didn’t have access to the plant after it left Raleigh until inspection day when it was padlocked.

          • Ged

            Yeah no, that is even less believable. If IH people were there, then “trusted” IH people could be there too, particularly since IH owns the plant and the “customer” is paying them for its operation, so IH is materially responsible for its performance and handling. If IH “trusted” personal were being blocked from entry (but of course not these fabeled “not trusted” IH employees), one call to the police would have solved that.

            No. That claim is the third least believable thing you have said yet (other than the steel and aluminum and boiling roof, and the see it from space line). You can hide all day in the attempt to frame things as “trusted” or “not trusted”, but IH could have had anyone they wanted in there and were in control. And worst, apparently Darden and investors visited (and people Mats has contact with), so “trusted” people could have come along with them, unless Darden and anyone around him are not “trusted” IH employees.

            Truth is, nothing could stop IH from having whatever people it wants to define as “trusted” there to check things out. So, that is one lame excuse that harms IH’s position, not helps it, as a lot of your talk has sadly done lately.

          • Engineer48

            @nckhawk

            So what entity engineers installed & commissioned the plant & integrated the customer’s thermal load with the plant?

            As the customer had no production at the site, prior to the plant providing the heat, it seems reasonable it would take some time to achieve max production. So the customers thermal load on the plant would ramp up over time and may have required the pkant control systems to be adjusted, creating an extended commissioning & integrations period.

            When was the plant delivered to 7863 46th street Doral?

            Was the plant tested at Raleigh, after manuf was completed but prior to being shipped to Doral? If so what were the test results. If not why ship an untested plant to Doral?

          • Engineer48

            “IH trusted engineers” is a strange definition.

            Were there IH people in the plant as Rossi claims?

            Did IH people work to install, commission the plant & to integrate the customer’s load with the plant?

            Were the customer’s engineers involved in this process?

    • Engineer48

      I take it you don’t understand endothermic processes that store energy as new chemical bonds or drive phase change transitions?

      Every kWh radiated / lost is a kWh of lost embodied energy in the process or final product.

    • Ged

      You would not see this from space, that is hyperbole; you don’t see the multi gigawatt heat of power plants.

      Remember, the heat is being turned into steam, so that is only a few hundred C in temperature at max (the pipes certainly survive!). 1 MW is not that much unless you focus it on a very small area (W per square meter is the metric you are looking for).

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    I may be wrong, but am not sure that posting pictures which might, or might not be, the location of the 1MW test is going to do AR any favours…

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    I may be wrong, but am not sure that posting pictures which might, or might not be, the location of the 1MW test is going to do AR any favours…

  • Mike Henderson

    1MW of steam contains the chemical energy equivalent of burning 26 gallons of diesel fuel per hour.

    • Sanjeev

      Usually there is a huge heat exchanger in such places, you can’t miss it. There is steam and noise of water falling through it. But that’s for steam, if the application only needs hot water and not steam then its possible that the same water is recycled via the plant.
      In any case, it would need a huge water reservoir, and there will be a big bill for water (if its being supplied by a utility and is metered).
      Its possible that this is only a office and the real production is located at some other place.

      • e-dog

        Spot on Sanjeev. 1MW is a lot of energy to use up.

        • Engineer48

          Not if the product or processes use endothermic reactions that suck up and embody the heat energy inside the product.

          Take ice, apply heat, it melts but the temp never increases as the heat energy drives the endothermic phase change that converts ice into water.

          • e-dog

            yep, I guess he could be melting ice in there…

          • Engineer48

            Or the heat energy is driving endothermic processes and final product creation that embody the heat energy as stored chemical bonds.

            The issue that the heat could be seen from space is just not correct and may be intentionally misleading to folks who do not understand why manufacturing companies use heat energy to drive endothermic processes and product.

          • Omega Z

            Engineer48

            Most of those posting lack real world experience and understanding of the process. The heat would be transitioned in the process to the product. In a closed loop system, all that would be losted would be heat radiated from any plumbing or equipment not insulated. There simply would not be much waste heat to be seen.

            1MW would produce approximately 7 gallons of superheated water between 100`C and 120`C per minute. The specs on the 1MW plant is that it operates between 1 and 2 bars of pressure. If this pressure is maintained throughout the closed loop system, there is only superheated water. No steam.

    • Obvious

      An Astar helicopter burns about a drum of fuel an hour.

    • Omega Z

      Or 0.43 gallons a minute.

  • Winebuff67@ gmail.com

    Time for a good old fashioned break in, a look see, (pics included of course) and leave just as quickly.

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      ‘break in’ ??!

      Excuse me, what is this hole-peeping attitude leading to? Where is respect of privacy, freedom, property?…

      One might ask courteously for information, but if the private person involved does not wish to provide it, one should respect that. No?

      • Omega Z

        “a good old fashioned break in” Followed by a Government financed vacation.
        🙂

  • Winebuff67@ gmail.com

    Time for a good old fashioned break in, a look see, (pics included of course) and leave just as quickly.

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      ‘break in’ ??!

      Excuse me, what is this hole-peeping attitude leading to? Where is respect of privacy, freedom, property?…

      One might ask courteously for information, but if the private person involved does not wish to provide it, one should respect that. No?

      • Omega Z

        “a good old fashioned break in” Followed by a Government financed vacation.
        🙂

  • Winebuff67

    That must be what’s melting the glaciers….

  • radius11

    I knocked on the front door twice. No answer. I was hoping for an autograph. I did pass by at around 4:40PM so reception could have left for the day. A nice fellow saw me taking pictures and said I should call the owner if I wanted to look at the business. I asked if he had the phone number, but he didn’t. I asked him about Andrea Rossi and his generator, but he didn’t know about it. I didn’t go into the parking lot behind the building. I took the rear pictures from a parking lot next door.

    • sam

      Good effort.
      Are you going back a second time.
      Is there any business or houses near
      there that you could ask what they seen.
      A.R said he drove a 2016 Cadillac.

    • Engineer48

      Any idea what the device is that seems to be attached to the rear entry door, just below the JM logo?

      Do you have more pictures of the rear entry door?

    • e-dog

      respect.

    • builditnow

      Radius11, check the google street view and satellite photo’s I submitted above, at the top about 7pm PST 5/4/16. There are two containers parked outside another office further to the right when viewing the building from the front. These containers appear to have some “junk” around them, indicating they have been there a while. I wonder if the JM Products address is a miss-direction and the “manufacturing” is in the same building, and Rossi’s reactors are in those containers. Are these containers in the satellite images still there?
      Feel like another visit?
      Bring a hammer and bang on the side to see if Rossi appears 🙂

      • builditnow

        Running away won’t help, he’s a long distance runner 🙂

      • Engineer48

        According to Weaver / nckhawk the 2 containers are padlocked, so doubt anybody is there. Weaver also claimed the reactor is located in an adjacent unit. As 7859 is Rontan Signals, the reactor should be in 7863.

    • LuFong

      Have you been back since? Any sign of activity?

  • radius11

    I knocked on the front door twice. No answer. I was hoping for an autograph. I did pass by at around 4:40PM so reception could have left for the day. A nice fellow saw me taking pictures and said I should call the owner if I wanted to look at the business. I asked if he had the phone number, but he didn’t. I asked him about Andrea Rossi and his generator, but he didn’t know about it. I didn’t go into the parking lot behind the building. I took the rear pictures from a parking lot next door.

    • sam

      Good effort.
      Are you going back a second time.
      Is there any business or houses near
      there that you could ask what they seen.
      A.R said he drove a 2016 Cadillac.

    • Stefenski

      Next door is http://www.rontan.com

      They have a contact form on the web page.

      Anyone think of of some diplomatic wording for a friendly enquiry ?

      maybe better not mention ‘ nuclear device hidden in blue shipping container ‘. 😉

      edit didn’t see Guilherme’s post – that he knew the owner of Rontan !

    • Engineer48

      Thanks for posting the photos.

      Any idea what the device is that seems to be attached to the rear entry door, just below the JM logo?

      Do you have more pictures of the rear entry door?

    • e-dog

      respect.

    • builditnow

      Radius11, check the google street view and satellite photo’s I submitted above, at the top about 7pm PST 5/4/16. There are two containers parked outside another office further to the right when viewing the building from the front. These containers appear to have some “junk” around them, indicating they have been there a while. I wonder if the JM Products address is a miss-direction and the “manufacturing” is in the same building, and Rossi’s reactors are in those containers. Are these containers in the satellite images still there?
      Feel like another visit?
      Bring a hammer and bang on the side to see if Rossi appears 🙂

      • builditnow

        Running away won’t help, he’s a long distance runner 🙂

      • Engineer48

        According to Weaver / nckhawk the 2 containers are padlocked, so doubt anybody is there. Weaver also claimed the reactor is located in an adjacent unit. As 7859 is Rontan Signals, the reactor should be in 7863.

  • Steve Swatman

    Clearer photo’s of the empty boxes and what they contained might offer a clue or two, where they came from, what was in them.

    Also it looks like part of a partition wall may have been knocked down, by the stuff that can be seen, Just by the loading level.

  • Engineer48

    Assuming the customer’s product uses endothermic processes, then the heat energy is embodied into the process / product and does not necessarily radiate into space.

    As IH manufactured the plant and its engineers apparently installed and commissioned the plant, they must have had detailed knowledge of the customer’s load as otherwise it could be very difficult to complete the commissioning & integrated testing to make sure the plant responds to the customer’s load requirements.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Before engaging in gumshoe and paparazzi activity, ask yourself what are the possible benefits and drawbacks to LENR. Maybe LENR gets introduced faster if its developers face fewer distractions like that?

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Before engaging in gumshoe and paparazzi activity, ask yourself what are the possible benefits and drawbacks to LENR. Maybe LENR gets introduced faster if its developers face fewer distractions like that?

  • e-dog

    Im feeling sceptical again!!!!! oh no!

    If only Roosi could get his act together, every day he doesnt share his knowledge erodes away at my belief that he has something. His caginess and unwillingness to release his technology (then suit for royalties if users of his ecats dont want to pay him license fees) is potentially harming the planet.

    Climate change is real and its going to hurt (more or less) because every day counts. I dont think Rossi has a solution at all, because no real caring human being on this planet could with-hold a secret that could save the world, could they?

    What was that bit in the bible about snakes and forbidden knowledge?
    Roosi is treading a fine line here, angels and demons, which will he choose to be?

    Enough ranting. .. but oh one more thing, I wish there was a world wide law that (after teaching the world how to do it) if anyone copied his tech or improved his tech and then made money off it, they should be expected or made to pay fair royalties to him. Its only fair. But I really dont think he has anything… otherwise he would have proper investors and ecats out there right now.

    • Engineer48

      The process you describe is called a patent and the US will not accept LENR / Cold Fusion patents. So his tech stays an Industrial Secret.

      As an engineer who has developed large projects, I can tell you the pathway to market is just a bit more complex and lengthy than you describe. Plus as there are non patentable IP involved, you must really trust any partners that may have access to the industrial secrets.

      • SG

        Well, to be clear, the U.S. has granted LENR / Cold Fusion patents more recently to the likes of NASA, SPAWAR, etc. And arguably, Mr. Rossi’s recently granted patent is LENR related. That said, it is still very difficult to get a grant on a LENR patent.

  • e-dog

    Im feeling sceptical again!!!!! oh no!

    If only Roosi could get his act together, every day he doesnt share his knowledge erodes away at my belief that he has something. His caginess and unwillingness to release his technology (then suit for royalties if users of his ecats dont want to pay him license fees) is potentially harming the planet.

    Climate change is real and its going to hurt (more or less) because every day counts. I dont think Rossi has a solution at all, because no real caring human being on this planet could with-hold a secret that could save the world, could they?

    What was that bit in the bible about snakes and forbidden knowledge?
    Roosi is treading a fine line here, angels and demons, which will he choose to be?

    Enough ranting. .. but oh one more thing, I wish there was a world wide law that (after teaching the world how to do it) if anyone copied his tech or improved his tech and then made money off it, they should be expected or made to pay fair royalties to him. Its only fair. But I really dont think he has anything… otherwise he would have proper investors and ecats out there right now.

    • Engineer48

      The process you describe is called a patent and the US will not accept LENR / Cold Fusion patents. So his tech stays an Industrial Secret.

      As an engineer who has developed large projects, I can tell you the pathway to market is just a bit more complex and lengthy than you describe. Plus as there are non patentable IP involved, you must really trust any partners that may have access to the industrial secrets.

      • SG

        Well, to be clear, the U.S. has granted LENR / Cold Fusion patents more recently to the likes of NASA, SPAWAR, etc. And arguably, Mr. Rossi’s recently granted patent is LENR related. That said, it is still very difficult to get a grant on a LENR patent.

  • Gerard McEk

    I do not seen any location where you can enter a full size container into the building, so I doubt this is the right location where the test took place.
    Besides that, would such a small building have a 300 kW connection in the US?

    • Engineer48

      Rear door is 189 pixel wide and the delivery bay door opening is 576 pixel wide or a ratio of 1:3.05. Assuming the external container is 2.45m wide, the read door must be 0.8m wide.

      Would seem that a container will fit through the roll a door opening…

      • zorud

        Guys, this is in my opinion a standard loading dock, where trucks (more or less the size of Rossi’s container) stop an get loaded / unloaded. I have a real hard time to believe, that Rossi’s “Blue Container” (see all the pictures in several threads that did show the container…) has been delivered and picked up at that simple loading dock. This box would never fit in – no way!

        • Rossi’s crate appears to be a standard 20 foot crate, which would make its width 8 feet and height 8.5 feet.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container

          If one assumes the door height outside is 6.75 feet, then that makes the door width~2.438 feet (using pixel aspect ratio). Extrapolating to the width and height of the loading bay (using pixel ratios) you get a width of about 8.75 feet and a height of 9.845 feet.

          So the crate CAN fit through the bay opening by my assumptions and calculations.

          Note the door height assumption may not be correct and calculating using pixel ratios ignores any perspective effects but I think those should be minor. More than 6 inches to spare in both dimensions though so I think we’re good.

          • Stefenski

            but, the entrance is 1m of the ground.

            & how do they get it out again..

            surely they would have had leased a building with a large entrance at ground level for this

          • Truck.

            You didn’t imagine that they drag it along the ground did you?

          • Engineer48

            The crane arm on the delivery low loader can easily handle the height of the standard loading dock.

            Bridle height can be adjusted so the arm is just above the top of the container, so to fit through a roll a door.

          • Frank Acland
          • Mats002

            This picture takes at least half of the space in the 47×12 meter JM office/workshop. How small can the production part be and consume 1 MW 24/7???

          • Stefenski

            Well not saying it hasn’t been done , but I’ve never seen one placed into a docking bay.

            Hopefully Guilherme will let us know if the adjacent unit inhabitants saw this spectacle. They would surely recall it.

          • Engineer48

            As the test used a backup 1MW ECat reactor, the 2 x 1MW plants were built into a 40′ container and not the standard 20′ container.

          • Still the same width and height according to the wiki page. Unless they used a taller one on purpose.

            Someone should do image analysis on the factory pictures we have of the 2 crates. I’ll see what I can find.

          • Engineer48

            I have seen 40′ containers lifted through a standard industrial loading dock roll a door.

            Loading docks and their roll a doors are designed for this to happen.

        • Thomas Kaminski

          This is the first plant tested. The 1 MW one year test was with a different device.

        • Engineer48

          Sorry but that is not how the system is designed.

          Please review my post a few posts above.

        • Various estimates above put the roller doors at about 8 feet wide, just enough to admit the containers (admittedly with a certain amount of paint loss).

      • zorud

        This is an image from his E-Cat Container fromn the older days. Guess the size is still the same? I do not believe this came in and out of these back door loading docks…

        • Engineer48

          Guess you have never seen a container unloaded from a low loader?

          • zorud

            Sure I have seen that…but anyway to me it seems quite uncommon that such containers are being unloaded this way at these kind of doors a couple of feet above the floor. They probably have to be slidden pulled into that building either directly from the truck at the dock or with additional crane or other lifting equipment from the floor in front. Neighbours should have noticed such kind of delivery / pick up. So hopefully someone can find out asking next door(s)…

          • “Neighbours should have noticed such kind of delivery / pick up.”

            Not to mention the coming and going, 24/7, of enough feedstock and product to absorb 1MW(t) continuously.

        • Engineer48

          Try this image. The arm can extend a long way & the bridle can be very short. So for sure the container, bridle & arm can fit inside the height of the roll a door.

      • Gerard McEk

        Yes, I probably misjudged the size of the roll openings. Never the less, it does not seem a location where JM products produces something, does it? So massive endothermic reactions did probably not happen there. They had to release the 1 MW somewhere. Maybe Radius11 can find out if there has been a big heat exchanger outside during the test period. It looks that JM products just provided the test location. It does not make AR more believable….. He said that JM products has now ordered 3 units, based on this test, so they must be convinced, but are they? A COP of 50 should be extremely easy to verify.

        • NCkhawk

          Gerald – Rossi’s neighbor can easily verify if any heat exchanger was outside or not for 350 days. I understand that he has been sharing information with certain folks anyway. How about the visitors from Sweden – did they see any heat exchangers?

        • Engineer48

          Gerard,

          Comnercial endothermic product manufacturers go to extremes to limit system thermal losses as every kWh radiated / lost is 1 kWh of lost endothermic production.

          Ideal production has no thermal losses and every kWh of heat energy received is embodied into the endothermic product.

          As I calculated, 1MWh of heat could melt 10.7m^3 of ice without raising the surrounding temperatures 1C. Maybe hard to understand/accept but that is endothermic reality.

          • Bruce__H

            Hi Engineer,

            I am trying to put some numbers around all of this.

            You said “Comnercial endothermic product manufacturers go to extremes to limit system thermal losses as every kWh radiated / lost is 1 kWh of lost endothermic production.”. Can you point me to an example?

      • Thomas Kaminski

        I assumed that the rear access door is 36″ X 84″ (Typical of commercial buildings). From that, I estimate the rolling door to be 96″ wide by 115″ tall. Just enough to fit a standard shipping container at 8′ wide by 9′ 6″ tall. SHipping containers dimensions from this site:

        http://www.sjonescontainers.co.uk/container/dimensions.asp

    • NCkhawk

      Gerald – perhaps those are the shipping doors for the “customer”. I believe that you are fully aware that the 1MW system is in Rossi’s bay.

      • Engineer48

        And that “bay” address is?

        • See my calculations below. The crate can fit in the bay with 6″ or more to spare.

          And all the loading bays are the same size based on the pics in the OP.

          • billH

            There were 2 crates, need I say any more?

          • The building is about 140 feet long.

          • Ged

            And there are three container doors.

        • NCkhawk

          I believe that you can find that in Rossi’s legal filing.

    • TVulgaris

      12′ is a very typical bay width.

      300kW service is perhaps a medium commercial load (more on the lower end of medium).

    • Omega Z

      6000 square foot warehouse, 20 foot ceilings.
      Appears to be 9` x 11` foot bay doors. Plenty of room to insert a shipping container.
      300 KW electrical service is no big issue for a commercial facility.

      22 KW service is minimum for residential electrical service in the U.S..
      I have 44 KW service to my home.

      • Gerard McEk

        Interesting. I have three phase 25A 230/400V (17.25KW) standard is 1 phase 40A/230V (9kW) in the Netherlands. Do you electrically heat the house? In the Netherlands natural gas is installed in 99% of all houses (heating/cooking).

        • Omega Z

          Natural gas heat.

          Was going to upgrade an old house 2 phase 60A 110/220 (13.2KW) to standard 2 phase 100A 110/220 (22KW), determined it only cost $30 more for wire & hardware to go with 200A 110/220 (44KW) entry service which is becoming common.

          That additional $30 provides a lot of future flexibilty later should the need arrise. However, if this seems a little overboard, consider there are whole house 2 bath electric on demand water heaters that require near 60KW.

  • So there was an interesting exchange last night. On Peter Gluck’s Ego Out (http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/04/apr-29-2016-lenr-coming-ten-years-test.html), he posted some projections from a lawyer friend of his (going by Alf Stokes) apparently having ties to Woodford. Alf Stokes says the court case will come down to Rossi having documents that prove success and Industrial Heat having documents that prove failure and that the likely result was that the court would order a new 10 year plant test. Ha – I’m sure he was joking, or at least exaggerating, but there was some apparent news in his projection. He claims that Industrial Heat have gone and gotten Nobel Prize winners and a bevy of scientists — even a psychologist! — to endorse their version of the results. Also that there is some built in “lie-detector” that will support their version. I’m not sure what he meant by that. Alf Stokes’ projection had some glaring logical contradictions that got me fired up, but I decided to sleep on it before posting. But here they are now in a nutshell:

    * Wildly different conclusion from the *same* data. COP 50 versus no excess heat.
    * Industrial Heat tried to help Rossi fix his null results (therefore they were aware of ongoing test failure), all while propping up his image and maintaining a successful veneer to attract additional investment
    * Rossi sent his army of supporters to “speak bad things about IH” and that poisoned their relationship even as IH was being oh so patient and ethically perfect, trying to help him.
    * That Industrial Heat would just try to drag things out before deciding whether or not to pay. Pay? I thought there was no excess heat ever and nothing but null results.

    So the whole “projection” is a hot mess, with perhaps a couple of insider nuggets worth pondering. It ticked me off for it’s lack of consistency. Yet another thing that doesn’t remotely fit into a rational and logical universe. Great. If it made me ticked imagine what it did to Rossi. But this post is long enough. I’ll follow up with Rossi’s response in a reply to myself.

    • wpj

      I read this last night and assumed that it was one of his rambling fictional posts (COP 22, etc) so I ignored it.

      • I don’t think it is fictional but in any case most of its value is in the response it elicited from Rossi.

      • Engineer48

        To be clear 1MWh of heat would melt 10.7m^3 of ice in 1 hour. That is a cube of ice 2.2m (7.7′) on a side.

        Also equivalent to 1,341hp but of course 100% thermal to torque conversion is not possible. Reality is very much lower.

        So not that large but still significant. There are other endothermic industrial processes that easily exceed ice melting.

        • Well, Mats said he was told they were making catalytic sponges there. How do those calculations work out?

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Their product seems close to the powder Rossi is using, http://www.jmprotech.com/images-uploaded/files/72052%20Sponge%20Metal%20brochure.pdf

          • Ecco

            How come nobody has noted yet that the “sponge catalyst” would be Raney Nickel in this case?

          • Ted-Z

            Ecco, I mentioned alloying nickel with aluminum, which is a stage in the process for the Raney Nickel. Hot washing-out of aluminum and evaporation of water would be the next steps. There are several variants in the process of making of the Raney Nickel.

          • LuFong

            But, correct me if I’m wrong, this describes the process as exothermic (generating heat)? If this goes to court the industrial processes will be key.

          • Engineer48

            Point I made was there is no way IH engineers installed and commissioned the plant without closely working with the engineers of the customer. Thus IH know the thermal load characteristics of the customer as a minimum.

            Likewise the customer may have industrial secrets it doesn’t wish to share with IH.

          • LuFong

            Can’t the customer control the load characteristics for it’s process independent of the 1MW plant? Seems all they need is that the 1MW plant generate steam at a certain temperature range at a 1MWh/h rate. So I I would tend to disagree with you here.

          • NCkhawk

            E48 – The only time that trusted IH engineers got a look at this plant was on the day that it got padlocked.

          • Ged

            So all the IH personal we have seen in the pictures and heard of were not “trusted”? I don’t believe you for a moment. Also, why were no “trusted” engineers sent over to check up on things periodically, with 89 million on the line? Hm?

            Yeah, BS meter off the charts, unless IH is that ungodly incompetent.

          • Engineer48

            So are you saying there were non trusted IH people working in the plant doing the install & ride out during the 1 year test?

            If so were they untrusted from day 1? If so why were they engaged to look after IH’s in a $89m test?

            If not untrusted at the start, when did they become untrusted & why were they not replaced when they became untrusted?

          • Yes the leeching process is highly endothermic, and wouldn’t need continuous heat input. It would also require a site license for the handling of hot corrosives in bulk.

          • Ted-Z

            The metal-melting process would require high temperature (it could be melting aluminum with nickel), so the temperature for the melting should be above 600 deg. C. The drying part of the final product would require large amounts of heat. Is there any chimney for venting-off of the generated steam present?
            In my opinion, the 1 MW of heat might easily be consumed in these operations, but a cloud of steam should show up over the building.

          • Ged

            If the heat is used well, the steam will simply be reclaimed (condensed) as water without much venting necessary. Any steam that is vented is wasted energy, and would have to be minimized considering how much energy that metal processing would require.

          • I’m not sure they were making the sponges. It could as well has been some sort of treatment of already made sponges. I’m not an expert of such processes.

          • Sure. Just trying to relay the tidbit that you had made public.

        • Engineer48

          And that “bay” address is?

          • See my calculations below. The crate can fit in the bay with 6″ or more to spare.

            And all the loading bays are the same size based on the pics in the OP.

          • billH

            There were 2 crates, need I say any more?

          • The building is about 140 feet long.

          • Ged

            And there are three container doors.

          • NCkhawk

            I believe that you can find that in Rossi’s legal filing.

        • Thomas Kaminski

          I looked up the calculation and 1MW of heat would require 285 tons of air conditioning to absorb. One ton of air conditioning is defined as the amount of ice required to provide cooling over a 24 hour period. A typical residential air conditioner is in the 2 ton range.

          On the other hand, if the process is endothermic and done in a well insulated reactor, only a fraction of the heat must be dissipated.

          • Engineer48

            Our numbers are the same. 285 tons / 24 hours = 11.875 tons of ice per hour = 10.7mt of ice or 10.7m^3 of ice.

    • Rossi was on it like white on rice. You can go see his response now on rossilivecat.com. It’s salty… But that was not his original response.

      His original response was…. let’s call it “epic.”

      Luckily I still have it on my phone. It’s long and unless there’s a good reason to I’m not going to copy the whole thing. But I will paraphrase and quote the juicy parts for you.

      First paragraph – similar to what is there now. Plus emphasizing that Mats Lewan and Prof Guiseppe Levi were not “collaborators” at any time.

      Second paragraph – Busting Alf as maybe one of the “experts” who valuated shares of Industrial Heat in exchange for the $50 M. This has come up before from Rossi.. must be a bone of contention. Mocking of Alf’s magical truth machine.

      LIST OF 10

      1 – How much of the $50 M plus whatever from China are still in the safe of IH, after telling investors they bought the IP?

      2 – Did or did not Woodford reps repeatedly visit E-Cats in Raleigh and then in Doral, FL with Darden vouching for performance? Didn’t IH claim they were able to repeat the effect with reactors they had built themselves?

      3 – Was there a hidden ERV?

      4 – Did their secret ERV swap out flowmeters?

      5 – Didn’t Darden agree that the ERV would use his own flowmeter and retrieve it after the test?

      6 – Didn’t Darden agree before the test with the ERV the installation procedure for the flowmeter?

      7 – I’ll quote this one directly, because it appears to be news: “The ERV has made a provisional report every 3 months of test; so Darden had his reports every 3 months, I mean: the first 3 months, the second after 6 months, the third after 9 months and finally, the 4th at the end; is it true that Darden and IH have never criticized any of these reports?”

      8 – Isn’t it true the first report was used in presentation to Chinese, which landed $200 M?

      9 – Isn’t it true IH paid everything as it was supposed to until the invoice after the test?

      10 – I’ll quote again: “Is it true that all the 3 reports delivered to IH after 3 months, 6 months and after 9 months had the same results of the last, final report?”

      Then he finishes up with another slam at the truth machine and clairvoyance.

      • So now my analysis.

        It’s looking likely that the court case is going to concentrate on flowmeter results, chain of custody etc. Either IH had their own distinct measurements or they found some massive error in the analysis afterward. The former seems much more likely and Rossi seems concerned about whether the flowmeter was tampered with.

        IH claims of ignorance about the situation until nearing the end of the test seems like pure BS now. They had periodic reports. They maybe had their own measurements. They had people in the box for many hours when Rossi was not present. If they win this case they might open themselves up to fraud charges from Woodford and the Chinese. What did they know and when did they know it?

        Finally there seems to be some angst on Rossi’s part about business dealings like stock valuations. Maybe Rossi has a piece of IH and got screwed (in his opinion) on the stock valuation. I don’t know. Seems and odd things for him to be concerned about.

        • help_lenr

          IH is in deep trouble if Rossi fails in the trial: WOODFORDFUNDS will not give them even one more penny of investment, China Goverment will ban IH since IH told them lies about their huge success in Rossi’s technology (and make china invest more than $100 million on false claims of IH).

          • It’s interesting that we haven’t heard anything about Woodford demanding their money back or suing IH.

            Maybe that means IH has other assets of equal promise or that Woodford is party to whatever strategy IH is currently executing.

      • Frost*

        I wonder if Alf is any relation to Doris. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Stokes

    • Speculation on the built-in lie detector comment of Alf’s?

      The only thing I can come up with is if the results are significantly different when Rossi was present in the plant (night shift) versus the other 8 hours.

      • LuFong

        The phrase “built-in lie detector” jumped out at me as well. The building and endothermic process used by the customer would be one. Maybe what you said or the 1MW plant itself and inherent heating losses roasting Rossi?

        • The way IH is puffing their chest out with such certainty… I think things are going to get real ugly in mid-June when they publish elements of their defense. It appears to me they think they have some kind of smoking gun, from their own press conference words and the hints their surrogates are dropping.

          But… if Industrial Heat tampered with the flowmeter outside of the agreement that makes *them* the violator of the agreement and certainly undermines the role of the mutually agreed upon ERV. So… that can’t be it, can it? That would look more like intentional sabotage in order to not have to pay $89 M, not magic tricks by Rossi.

          • LuFong

            I wouldn’t consider NCkhawk’s posts as representative of IH’s defense. I’m not sure where you got that IH tampered with the flow meters. Let’s hope that IH is able to file an Answer to the civil suit before it’s pulled by Rossi or settled out of court or we will never get an idea about IH’s position.

          • From Rossi’s response to Alf’s projection. And I think someone IH associated asserted it earlier somewhere else.

          • LuFong

            I don’t see what you are referring to in Rossi’s post. And so far IH’s only response has been that Rossi’s suit is without merit. Let’s keep to the facts.

          • I did stick to the facts. I said IH associated. You misinterpreted or misread that as IH.

            And the original Rossi response which I paraphrased for you above talks directly about the flowmeter, a second secret ERV and that person swapping out the flowmeter.

            Ehhh… I need to figure out a way to get the text of my phone onto the board so you can all see it first-hand.

    • Mike Henderson

      Watch the money. The best con is one where the mark walks away happy. Chaos will drive prudent investors away … and when they do, any front money they have put up is gone. Consider all scenarios including those where IH and Rossi only appear to be fighting.

      Pass the popcorn.

      • I have regularly considered the ‘theater scenario.’ It is the one I hope to be true, but the one I believe is the least likely.

    • LuFong

      I though Alf pretty much predicted that Peter will not be seeing confirmation of Rossi’s tech as a result of this confirmation. It’s not clear to me whether Alf’s statements are a result of insider knowledge or his conjecture (as some of Peter’s posts tend to be). Very interesting reading though and in my view probably close to what will happen.

      • Most of it seems to be his own (flawed) conjecture, but he slips in what sounds like insider info about what IH is doing with their own version of the report.

      • Frank Acland

        Peter admits that he made up the comment of Alf Stokes: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/04/apr-30-2016-banality-of-absurd-in-lenr.html

        • LuFong

          Peter has got to stop doing this. I’m going to stop reading his blog.

          • Timar

            If you had read it regularly before you would have known that he made it up 😉

    • OK, so Peter has copped to making up Alf and his projection. Bad, Peter. Bad. bad.

      But Rossi’s original response still remains *quite* interesting.

      I’ve been able to grab some images of the original text so you can all partake:

      • Timar

        I immediately thought so after reading it. It was just way too absurd. First, how are the chances that Peter, living in Romania, has an old aquaintance who coincentendally is an UK lawyer affiliated with Woodward and having insider knowledge about the case? One in a million? Come on! Second, the content of the post is just way too absurd and construed. 10 years test, build-in lie detector? Come on! Anyone who regularly reads Peter’s blog knows that this is exactly his wry and sophisticated sense of humour.

        Still, I think it was quite an ingenious move (deliberately or not), provoking Rossi to write the response he did and tempting him to reveal some formerly unknown details, such as the 3-month reports. I just hope that it didn’t tempt him to reveal anything that could be harmful to him – if he is the one on right side of this litigation.

        • I’m not a regular reader of Ego Out so I guess that may be why my BS-meter was broken. I find it too… obtuse?

          I wouldn’t know who he knows or why.

          Also seeing Rossi’s response I figured if he thought it was the real deal, well…

          • Timar

            Given the ingenious fraudster he supposedly is, he shows a surprising lack of fraudulent imagination, don’t you think? 😉

          • : )

            In the takes-one-to-know-one theory of life this clears Rossi of all wrong-doing!

    • Omega Z

      ->”IH was being oh so patient and ethically perfect.”

      Ethically perfect and a business man->oxymoron

      The Human condition does not allow such no matter how ethical one tries to be.

      Anyway, IH merely said that Rossi’s results aren’t substantiated. This could all revolve around IH’s statements of testing something ad nauseum by multiple parties to be excepted as real.

  • So there was an interesting exchange last night. On Peter Gluck’s Ego Out ( http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/ ), he posted some projections from a lawyer friend of his (going by Alf Stokes) apparently having ties to Woodford. Alf Stokes says the court case will come down to Rossi having documents that prove success and Industrial Heat having documents that prove failure and that the likely result was that the court would order a new 10 year plant test. Ha – I’m sure he was joking, or at least exaggerating, but there was some apparent news in his projection. He claims that Industrial Heat have gone and gotten Nobel Prize winners and a bevy of scientists — even a psychologist! — to endorse their version of the results. Also that there is some built in “lie-detector” that will support their version. I’m not sure what he meant by that. Alf Stokes’ projection had some glaring logical contradictions that got me fired up, but I decided to sleep on it before posting. But here they are now in a nutshell:

    * Wildly different conclusion from the *same* data. COP 50 versus no excess heat.
    * Industrial Heat tried to help Rossi fix his null results (therefore they were aware of ongoing test failure), all while propping up his image and maintaining a successful veneer to attract additional investment
    * Rossi sent his army of supporters to “speak bad things about IH” and that poisoned their relationship even as IH was being oh so patient and ethically perfect, trying to help him.
    * That Industrial Heat would just try to drag things out before deciding whether or not to pay. Pay? I thought there was no excess heat ever and nothing but null results.

    So the whole “projection” is a hot mess, with perhaps a couple of insider nuggets worth pondering. It ticked me off for it’s lack of consistency. Yet another thing that doesn’t remotely fit into a rational and logical universe. Great. If it made me ticked imagine what it did to Rossi. But this post is long enough. I’ll follow up with Rossi’s response in a reply to myself.

    • wpj

      I read this last night and assumed that it was one of his rambling fictional posts (COP 22, etc) so I ignored it.

      • I don’t think it is fictional but in any case most of its value is in the response it elicited from Rossi.

        EDIT: wrong. Was fictional after all.

    • Rossi was on it like white on rice. You can go see his response now on rossilivecat.com. It’s salty… But that was not his original response.

      His original response was…. let’s call it “epic.”

      Luckily I still have it on my phone. It’s long and unless there’s a good reason to I’m not going to copy the whole thing. But I will paraphrase and quote the juicy parts for you.

      First paragraph – similar to what is there now. Plus emphasizing that Mats Lewan and Prof Guiseppe Levi were not “collaborators” at any time.

      Second paragraph – Busting Alf as maybe one of the “experts” who valuated shares of Industrial Heat in exchange for the $50 M. This has come up before from Rossi.. must be a bone of contention. Mocking of Alf’s magical truth machine.

      LIST OF 10

      1 – How much of the $50 M plus whatever from China are still in the safe of IH, after telling investors they bought the IP?

      2 – Did or did not Woodford reps repeatedly visit E-Cats in Raleigh and then in Doral, FL with Darden vouching for performance? Didn’t IH claim they were able to repeat the effect with reactors they had built themselves?

      3 – Was there a hidden ERV?

      4 – Did their secret ERV swap out flowmeters?

      5 – Didn’t Darden agree that the ERV would use his own flowmeter and retrieve it after the test?

      6 – Didn’t Darden agree before the test with the ERV the installation procedure for the flowmeter?

      7 – I’ll quote this one directly, because it appears to be news: “The ERV has made a provisional report every 3 months of test; so Darden had his reports every 3 months, I mean: the first 3 months, the second after 6 months, the third after 9 months and finally, the 4th at the end; is it true that Darden and IH have never criticized any of these reports?”

      8 – Isn’t it true the first report was used in presentation to Chinese, which landed $200 M?

      9 – Isn’t it true IH paid everything as it was supposed to until the invoice after the test?

      10 – I’ll quote again: “Is it true that all the 3 reports delivered to IH after 3 months, 6 months and after 9 months had the same results of the last, final report?”

      Then he finishes up with another slam at the truth machine and clairvoyance.

      • So now my analysis.

        It’s looking likely that the court case is going to concentrate on flowmeter results, chain of custody etc. Either IH had their own distinct measurements or they found some massive error in the analysis afterward. The former seems much more likely and Rossi seems concerned about whether the flowmeter was tampered with.

        IH claims of ignorance about the situation until nearing the end of the test seems like pure BS now. They had periodic reports. They maybe had their own measurements. They had people in the box for many hours when Rossi was not present. If they win this case they might open themselves up to fraud charges from Woodford and the Chinese. What did they know and when did they know it?

        Finally there seems to be some angst on Rossi’s part about business dealings like stock valuations. Maybe Rossi has a piece of IH and got screwed (in his opinion) on the stock valuation. I don’t know. Seems an odd thing for him to be concerned about.

        • help_lenr

          IH is in deep trouble if Rossi fails in the trial: WOODFORDFUNDS will not give them even one more penny of investment, China Goverment will ban IH since IH told them lies about their huge success in Rossi’s technology (and make china invest more than $100 million on false claims of IH).

          • It’s interesting that we haven’t heard anything about Woodford demanding their money back or suing IH.

            Maybe that means IH has other assets of equal promise or that Woodford is party to whatever strategy IH is currently executing.

      • Frost*

        I wonder if Alf is any relation to Doris. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Stokes

    • NCkhawk

      I cannot find where Alf Stokes is even a real person.

      • It’d be good to know whether Alf Stokes is a real lawyer, a fake name for a real lawyer or a figment of Peter’s imagination. In any case what interested me was most was Rossi’s reaction.

        • NCkhawk

          Peter has just confirmed that Alf isn’t real and that the post was satire.

          • Where? Not seeing it.

            A relief in a way, if that’s the case, cause the arguments by Alf were bordering nonsensical.

          • NCkhawk

            Private email. Peter is Rossi’s friend and I wonder why he did that to him? Guess we’ll see yet another edit on JNOP – the first response was a doozy.

          • sam

            I am not sure if they are friends.
            They do seem to respect each other.

          • Thanks, but forgive me if I say I don’t trust you. Until Peter goes public with that mea culpa I will hold it as a 50/50 proposition.

            If Peter did do that — PETER! THE LAST THING WE NEED IS MORE CONFUSION AND DISINFORMATION.

          • …aaaaand he’s gone public with a mea culpa.

            On the upside his attempted sarcasm was so subtle, hidden behind a pseudonym described earnestly as a lawyer friend with Woodford ties, that he tricked Rossi too and got a revealing response.

    • Speculation on the built-in lie detector comment of Alf’s?

      The only thing I can come up with is if the results are significantly different when Rossi was present in the plant (night shift) versus the other 8 hours.

    • Mike Henderson

      Watch the money. The best con is one where the mark walks away happy. Chaos will drive prudent investors away … and when they do, any front money they have put up is gone. Consider all scenarios including those where IH and Rossi only appear to be fighting.

      Pass the popcorn.

      • I have regularly considered the ‘theater scenario.’ It is the one I hope to be true, but the one I believe is the least likely.

    • OK, so Peter has copped to making up Alf and his projection. Bad, Peter. Bad. bad.

      But Rossi’s original response still remains *quite* interesting.

      I’ve been able to grab some images of the original text so you can all partake:

      • Timar

        I immediately thought so after reading it. It was just way too absurd. First, how are the chances that Peter, living in Romania, has an old aquaintance who coincentendally is an UK lawyer affiliated with Woodward and having insider knowledge about the case? One in a million? Come on! Second, the content of the post is just way too absurd and construed. 10 years test, build-in lie detector? Come on! Anyone who regularly reads Peter’s blog knows that this is exactly his wry and sophisticated sense of humour.

        Still, I think it was quite an ingenious move (deliberately or not), provoking Rossi to write the response he did and tempting him to reveal some formerly unknown details, such as the 3-month reports. I just hope that it didn’t tempt him to reveal anything that could be harmful to him – if he is the one on right side of this litigation.

        • I’m not a regular reader of Ego Out so I guess that may be why my BS-meter was broken. I find it too… obtuse?

          I wouldn’t know who he knows or why.

          Also seeing Rossi’s response I figured if he thought it was the real deal, well…

          • Timar

            Given the ingenious fraudster he supposedly is, he shows a surprising lack of fraudulent imagination, don’t you think? 😉

          • : )

            In the takes-one-to-know-one theory of life this clears Rossi of all wrong-doing!

    • Omega Z

      ->”IH was being oh so patient and ethically perfect.”

      Ethically perfect and a business man->oxymoron

      The Human condition does not allow such no matter how ethical one tries to be.

      Anyway, IH merely said that Rossi’s results aren’t substantiated. This could all revolve around IH’s statements of testing something ad nauseum by multiple parties to be excepted as real.

  • Just for the armchair sleuths, Radius11 did not put himself the round JM sticker on the front
    door. It was there already in April 2015, see Google street view picture.

  • Just for the armchair sleuths, Radius11 did not put himself the round JM sticker on the front
    door. It was already there in April 2015, see Google street view picture.

  • The building measures 47 x 12 meters.

  • The building measures 47 x 12 meters.

  • peacelovewoodstock

    So the lawyer Henry W. Johnson is a named corporate officer (President) at JM, also has roles in numerous other interrelated companies, including Leonardo and a real estate holding company also owned by Rossi.

    https://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Coral-Springs/henry-w-johnson-14210.aspx

    Nothing unusual or nefarious about this although it might be interesting to see what these other companies are up to. Here is Johnson’s bio, he is one of a small number of board-certified real estate lawyers in FL, also maintains a high peer-review rating in Martindale-Hubble.

    • Publius

      I am very surprised nobody has raised the issue of Henry W. Johnson having an apparent conflict of interest. I don’t see where we he can be advocate in this case when he might be called as a witness for JM or Leonardo. He’s treading on very thin ice.
      https://www.floridabar.org/divexe/rrtfb.nsf/FV/14CBEA948CFCB30E852571710066F0B5

      • peacelovewoodstock

        Henry W. Johnson is not associated with the law firm that Rossi engaged to pursue his suit against IH so no conflict.

  • Not exactly the same, but…

  • Not exactly the same, but…

  • Engineer48

    To be clear 1MWh of heat would melt 10.7m^3 of ice in 1 hour. That is a cube of ice 2.2m (7.7′) on a side.

    Also equivalent to 1,341hp but of course 100% thermal to torque conversion is not possible. Reality is very much lower.

    So not that large but still significant. There are other endothermic industrial processes that easily exceed ice melting.

    • NCkhawk

      So 24 / 7 of that heat output for 350 days. How many hours per day do you think the “customer” was actually using the 1MW output?
      Where did the heat go when the “customer” industrial process was idle?

      • Engineer48

        As the customers thermal load alters, the plant would need to alter thermal production.

        Part of the commissioning & trialing by both JM & IH engineers would need to verify the plant would properly adjust to any thermal load changes. No biggie, just how it is done.

        Control could be done on maintaining returned fluid temp constant.

        • NCkhawk

          Didn’t the test require a certain amount of output for a certain period of time? To meet the test parameters, that heat had to go somewhere when the “customer’s” process was not in use.

          • Engineer48

            Ok you are clearly not nckhawk / Weaver from Mat’s blog as you clearly do not know the requirements to trigger the payment of the $89m.

          • Timar

            Can you provide a reference if you think 24/7 continuous 1MW heat production was not part of the requirements? AFAIK that is exactly what Rossi himself stated repeatedly on his blog.

          • NCkhawk

            E48 – you’re wrong but it doesn’t matter who you think I am. If you’d like to focus on the $89M payment as the main issue then we can go there but I prefer to focus on the matter at hand. There can be not dispute – the test terms are in Rossi’s legal filing are is very clear.

        • TVulgaris

          See my comment about thermal reservoir above. A 250 to 500 gallon tank is quite sufficient. This decouples the load cycling from heat production if necessary- which is apparently the case for the terms of the test.

      • Engineer48

        Normally supply is adjusted to match demand. So there should not be any significant unused heat.

        One possible way to match supply to demand is to monitor return water temperature (should increase as generated heat is not used) and adjust plant output to maintain return water temp constant.

    • Well, Mats said he was told they were making catalytic sponges there. How do those calculations work out?

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Their product seems close to the powder Rossi is using, http://www.jmprotech.com/images-uploaded/files/72052%20Sponge%20Metal%20brochure.pdf

        • Ecco

          How come nobody has noted yet that the “sponge catalyst” would be Raney Nickel in this case?

          • Ted-Z

            Ecco, I mentioned alloying nickel with aluminum, which is a stage in the process for the Raney Nickel. Hot washing-out of aluminum and evaporation of water would be the next steps. There are several variants in the process of making of the Raney Nickel.

        • Ted-Z

          The metal-melting process would require high temperature (it could be melting aluminum with nickel), so the temperature for the melting should be above 600 deg. C. The drying part of the final product would require large amounts of heat. Is there any chimney for venting-off of the generated steam present?
          In my opinion, the 1 MW of heat might easily be consumed in these operations, but a cloud of steam should show up over the building.

          • Ged

            If the heat is used well, the steam will simply be reclaimed (condensed) as water without much venting necessary. Any steam that is vented is wasted energy, and would have to be minimized considering how much energy that metal processing would require.

      • I’m not sure they were making the sponges. It could as well has been some sort of treatment of already made sponges. I’m not an expert of such processes.

        • Sure. Just trying to relay the tidbit that you had made public.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      I looked up the calculation and 1MW of heat would require 285 tons of air conditioning to absorb. One ton of air conditioning is defined as the amount of ice required to provide cooling over a 24 hour period. A typical residential air conditioner is in the 2 ton range.

      On the other hand, if the process is endothermic and done in a well insulated reactor, only a fraction of the heat must be dissipated.

      • Engineer48

        Our numbers are the same. 285 tons / 24 hours = 11.875 tons of ice per hour = 10.7mt of ice or 10.7m^3 of ice.

  • Rossi’s crate appears to be a standard 20 foot crate, which would make its width 8 feet and height 8.5 feet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container

    If one assumes the door height outside is 6.75 feet, then that makes the door width~2.438 feet (using pixel aspect ratio). Extrapolating to the width and height of the loading bay (using pixel ratios) you get a width of about 8.75 feet and a height of 9.845 feet.

    So the crate CAN fit through the bay opening by my assumptions and calculations.

    Note the door height assumption may not be correct and calculating using pixel ratios ignores and perspective effects but I think those should be minor. More than 6 inches to spare in both dimensions though so I think we’re good.

    • Stefenski

      but, the entrance is 1m of the ground.

      & how do they get it out again..

      surely they would have had leased a building with a large entrance at ground level for this

      • Engineer48

        I take it you don’t understand endothermic processes that store energy as new chemical bonds or drive phase change transitions?

        Every kWh radiated / lost is a kWh of lost embodied energy in the process or final product.

      • Truck.

        You didn’t imagine that they drag it along the ground did you?

        • Engineer48

          NCkhawk,

          A few simple question.

          1) Did IH have people they paid do the install, commissioning and ride out the 1 year test?

          2) Not interested if they were “Trusted” by IH or not. Just if they were paid by IH or any associated entity for their time spent doing the 1MW plant install, commission, customer integration and 1 year ride out?

          3) What makes an IH employee “Trusted” or “UnTrusted”?

          4) How many “Trusted” and “UnTrusted” people do IH pay for their services?

      • Engineer48

        The crane arm on the delivery low loader can easily handle the height of the standard loading dock.

        • Frank Acland
          • Mats002

            This picture takes at least half of the space in the 47×12 meter JM office/workshop. How small can the production part be and consume 1 MW 24/7???

        • Stefenski

          Well not saying it hasn’t been done , but I’ve never seen one placed into a docking bay.

          Hopefully Guilherme will let us know if the adjacent unit inhabitants saw this spectacle. They would surely recall it.

      • etburg

        Guys, not at my desktop so can’t include the link. Next big future tweeted in the last 12 hours on a 35 page “independent validation report” on Brillouin’s boiler. This is a preemptive strike. I think it’s clear where IH is laying their bets… I leave to others to speculate why.

    • Engineer48

      As the test used a backup 1MW ECat reactor, the 2 x 1MW plants were built into a 40′ container and not the standard 20′ container.

      • Still the same width and height according to the wiki page. Unless they used a taller one on purpose.

        Someone should do image analysis on the factory pictures we have of the 2 crates. I’ll see what I can find.

        • Engineer48

          I have seen 40′ containers lifted through a standard industrial loading dock roll a door.

          Loading docks and their roll a doors are designed for this to happen.

      • “Neighbours should have noticed such kind of delivery / pick up.”

        Not to mention the coming and going, 24/7, of enough feedstock and product to absorb 1MW(t) continuously.

  • Thomas Kaminski

    This is the first plant tested. The 1 MW one year test was with a different device.

  • Engineer48

    As the customers thermal load alters, the plant would need to alter thermal production.

    Part of the commissioning & trialing by both JM & IH engineers would need to verify the plant would properly adjust to any thermal load changes. No biggie, just how it is done.

    Control could be done on maintaining returned fluid temp constant.

    • TVulgaris

      See my comment about thermal reservoir above. A 250 to 500 gallon tank is quite sufficient. This decouples the load cycling from heat production if necessary- which is apparently the case for the terms of the test.

  • Engineer48

    Guess you have never seen a container delivered? Trust me the hydraulic delivery systems can put a container just about anywhere from anywhere.

  • Engineer48

    Try this image. The arm can extend a long way & the bridle can be very short. So for sure the container, bridle & arm can fit inside the height of the roll a door.

  • Engineer48

    Sorry but that is not how the system is designed.

    Please review my post a few posts above.

  • Mats002

    Just trying to sum it all up: The part of the building that is JM is 47×12 meter say 6 meter up to the roof (it seams to be two floors, workshop downstairs, offices upstairs. The 1 MW container can’t go inside without breaking something 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Then if 1 MWh/h 24/7 were produced inside then the neighbours certanly would complain about the heat, the walls inside should be very stressed by that amount of heat in that (small) volume. The paint would come off the walls. And nobody noticed this happen???

    • Engineer48

      Have you even been in a warehouse? Small 1 to 2 story office space at the front, maybe 15% of length. High ceilings space for 85% of length.

      As for heat, seems you have not read my endothermic posts?

      • Mats002

        I did before writing the post. Are you saying 1 MW 24/7 in a process where a high % if the energy in is dissapating to the surrondings is NOT a problem in the space you just described?

        • Engineer48

          Heat is used to drive endothermic production processes & final product creation. Every radiated / lost kWh of heat is represented by reduced production. So in a properly designed production line, there should be minimal radiated / lost heat.

          So no business will be paying IH $1,000 per DAY for heat that just radiated into the surrounding space.

          Additionally the heat generation plant should regulate thermal output by adjusting output to keep returned water temp constant so the heat produced is what is needed.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I guess that even with a highly endothermic reaction and good insulation one would get plenty of waste heat when the reactor vessel is opened and the product is removed. I cannot imagine an industrial process that needs temperatures >= 100C to run, but ends up with reaction products at room temperature.

          • It would also require production (endothermic reaction) 24/7.

          • Engineer48

            Mats,

            Simple to match production heat to used hear by monitoring return water temp and regulating heat generation to maintain returned water temp constant. Of course there are other ways to do the regulation.

            There seems to be a few folks here that have little understanding of endothermic processes.

          • Stephen

            If the steam is heating some gas under high pressure in a heat exchanger and that gas is released to lower pressure i suppose it would cool?

          • TVulgaris

            Unless you utilize a thermal reservoir for demand-smoothing a cyclic or varying-temperature process (which a well-insulated water tank represents quite well)- 10 or 20KL, perhaps…

          • TVulgaris

            This is sufficient to store 24MWH with only a few (less than 10) degrees temperature change, the full daily output of the reactor.

          • Engineer48

            Melt ice. The temp never changes.

            As I said before, every lost KWh is reflected in reduced endothermic production.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Come on, E48… Why would anybody need a factory that melts ice?

          • Engineer48

            Phase change of ice was just an example of a endothermic reaction that does not release heat but instead absorbes it.

          • Thanks, but forgive me if I say I don’t trust you. Until Peter goes public with that mea culpa I will hold it as a 50/50 proposition.

            If Peter did do that — PETER! THE LAST THING WE NEED IS MORE CONFUSION AND DISINFORMATION.

          • …aaaaand he’s gone public with a mea culpa.

            On the upside his attempted sarcasm was so subtle, hidden behind a pseudonym described earnestly as a lawyer friend with Woodford ties, that he tricked Rossi too and got a revealing response.

          • Engineer48

            Very interesting statement by Andrea Rossi on his blog as attached.
            http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=105#comment-1178863

            What say you Mr NCkhawk?
            .

          • Ged

            I’m going to copy and paste it, just in case it gets edited later, so we have this snapshot of it saved:

            “LookMoo
            May 1, 2016 at 2:46 AM

            Dear Mr. Rossi,

            In one of your replies you briefly mentioned that IH had guided tours with potential customers during the one year test of the 1 MW plant.

            Can you tell us a little bit more about these happenings??

            Like:

            * How many guided tours
            * When was the last guided tour by IH.”

            ” Andrea Rossi
            May 1, 2016 at 7:52 AM

            LookMoo:

            We have the movies of them, because the plant had cameras for security
            issues, and photos, but all this information cannot be published before
            it is disclosed in Court.

            I can make this statement, though: all I said in this blog about the 1
            year test of the 1 MW E-Cat will be sustained by undisputable evidence
            in Court.

            I say this now: all the main investors that gave real money to IH before
            IH bought other IP around have repeatedly visited our plant. I can also
            add this, because it is already public: the ERV made a partial report
            every 3 months and the results were the same as in the final report.
            This means that IH received a report in April, a second report in July, a
            third report in October, before the final report. The results of all
            these report were the same, moreless. IH not only never criticized the
            reports, but shown the reports to Woodford and in an official congerence
            in China, using them to collect investments. The comments of Darden
            about the reports can be read in his interviews after the Chinese
            conference.

            So, for one year of test IH accepted with great enthusiasm the reports,
            used them to get enormous investments from funds and never made a single
            communication to the ERV, who sent to them all the preliminar reports,
            not a single word in negative.

            The situation changed as soon as payment time came.

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.”

          • Engineer48

            Just save my image. Has all the time stamps.

          • Ged

            Oh sorry, Disqus doesn’t show there’s an image until the entire page is refreshed.

          • keeping good relation with the inventor is more important than saving 89Mn$…

            My bet is that they have no IP, at least on what is important, Ecat-X, Quark, SSM, and say that it is in the contract (all technology, including improvement)…

            that is the most rational disagreement.

            It would be stupid to lose the good relations with someone like Rossi, if he have what he claims, and if he transfered already all the valuable IP (E-cat-X/SSM), and can generate new improvements …

            capitalism is not about screwing people, it is about taking and controling risk.
            and losing good relation and trust of someone so creative is beyond stupidity.

            If I was Woodford fund, and IH have done that, I would sue them for incompetence.

            but Darden is an experienced investor, and any VC know that the people are more important than their initial idea.
            It is a well know fact that VC invest in people, in personalities, in talents, not in business model (they are all wrong, and startup pivot regularly ).

            Now, who can be irrational in that affair? 8)
            someone who suffered the same “problems” already 2 times.

          • Engineer48

            Alain,

            IH built the 2 x 1MW reactors that did the 1 year trial. As it did SSM, they know how to make SSM happen. SSM is not something Rossi could add on in secret. It had to be designed and built into the reactor’s control circuits for it to happen.

            So because SSM happened, IH had all the IP necessary to make it happen.

          • SSM is a software.
            load is a powder.

            notice that in Lugano it is Rossi who provided the powder.
            They did not use SSM.

            Note that old SSM much improved during the test according to Rossi, leading to COP 50

            I just say something else is possible, and could explain what otherwise seems absurd and suicidal.

            What I say is that if I have an inventor that have COP50 and direct electricity production, and if I have all his know how, I start to build factories, and I buy him a yacht with a lab inside with bimbo to motivate his research efforts.

            I don’t run with V0.9 of the revolution, letting my crazy inventor build better technology for strangers.

            If Darden did what some says, I will call him stupid, not evil.

          • Bob

            I still find it interesting how so many people on this list are so quick to make accusations against Darden and the only “evidence” they have is what Rossi either “says” or what he put in his lawsuit! They completely ignore (or most likely have not done ANY research) the history and reputation Tom Darden has!
            .
            If you are basing everything on “Rossi says” versus “Tom Darden does not post daily onto some blog” therefore he is guilty and evil, one is going to be disappointed!.
            .
            I have no allegiance to IHDarden. I only know what I have read from various sources that portray Darden as a VERY good and ethical business person that has no real blemishes on his record at all. He is well regarded in his dealings, his methods and his intelligence as far as I have been able to read.
            .
            I have followed the Rossi saga for 5 years. I hope he has what he says…. but he has said MUCH over 5 years and yet I still have seen little to no proof of anything.
            .
            If I research the history of Darden, I cannot simply judge him evil and crooked based upon Rossi says. He has build a very successful business and one does not do that being stupid. His reputation does count more for me at this time that what some vague Rossi post does.
            .
            David French, the respected patent attorney, recently published that IH will NOT be able to sue Rossi for libel or defamation over what he submits to the court in his lawsuit. Some state here that because Rossi submitted it to court, it MUST be true! No it does not!. That is what the court will decide. It MAY be completely true, it MAY be completely false or most likely it MAY fall somewhere in between.
            .
            Why is it that so many jump to paint IH / Darden the bad guys here based upon these non-confirmed hypotheses and non-facts? I could start posting about Rossi being a felon, that he blew up and kicked the Navy out when they pointed out his test was not valid, that when given the chance to have Ed Storms validate his eCat, he walked out and the repetitive secret customers that never reveal themselves and so on. I could paint a very stark picture of his actions just as people are painting IH and Darden. If I did that, many here would cry FOUL, yet it would be no different than what they are doing too Darden.
            .
            We do not know who built the Lugano reactors.. there is much speculation but we do not know. We do not know if they supplied the fuel, the electronics, etc. We do not have any real facts yet..
            .
            If I have learned anything the past 5 years of watching this soap opera, it is that I always prepare myself to be disappointed when it comes to Rossi. Certifications are not what is expected. Customers are always secret. Tests are never truly independent . “ERV’s” are not agencies but a loan consultant. “Robotized” factories are often espoused but never produce. It does not mean Rossi is a fraud… it does mean that he simply does not deliver as many expect.
            .
            Based upon history, I expect that this case will settle out of court before IH even publishes their response. With everything Rossi, it will be hidden by negotiated NDA. We will not know if Rossi dropped the suit or if he got paid. In either case, he will continue with his blog and many here will trumpet that this PROVES Rossi was the winner. IH could care less what those very few of us on this blog think or hear. All they care about is the business transaction and monetary judgement. So in either situation, those on this blog wanting the truth will be disappointed and those who fully believe every “Rossi says” will be confident that he is vindicated.
            .
            Or I could be wrong! Time will tell.

          • Ged

            Put another way, we really need IH’s published defense.

          • US_Citizen71

            One of the secret customers was IH/Darden. The first attempt at production was put on hold to take on the IH/Darden dog and pony show as a partner. Much of the secrecy over the last 5 years was due to NDAs and the contract signed with IH/Darden. Go back and match the dates up from the contract against what Rossi said and you will see a different view.

          • Bob

            Ok, I will bite..
            How do you know all the delays were due to IH/Darden? Rossi says?
            Can you provide any confirmation other than that? As far as I know, the delays were due to the fact that Rossi could not get the eCat to be stable enough, that he did not have control. That IH was not going to produce a plant that was not reliable or that took a person living inside the container to keep it running! This has just as much evidence support as IH dragging their feet.
            .
            Rossi stated that he sold 2 units, then 13, but the customers and those units have been lost in the fog of memory to most. Why is Rossi not held accountable to those? When IH was presented as a CUSTOMER by Rossi, they turned out to be a partner. They are the same as Hdyrofusion, Prometeon and Mr. Green in Austrialia. They were NOT customers. EVERYONE on the blog originally thought for almost 2 years that the customer was using the plants in production! Disappointment and Rossi did nothing to stop that line of thinking! They were not a production company. No they were a partner, not an end user type customer. Even with the 1 year test “customer”, everyone thought it was a production facility and that “the accountant” would prove the eCat when comparing the old utility bills with the new! Disappointment again! No existing production customer and it is quite questionable if any production was done at all. We have no proof of any! Rossi again, let people believe it was an established facility that side by side comparisons could be made.
            .
            I state that Rossi is the one that requires the NDA’s, not the customer! Please prove otherwise, (other than Rossi says). If you read the accounts of anyone dealing with him, HE is the one requiring the NDA’s. Look at what Rossi himself states… Due to NDA, I cannot… but he never explicitly states WHOSE NDA it is. He is not lying about it, he just does not paint the entire picture! I am POSITIVE that there are a rather large number of potential customers that would JUMP at the chance for the free publicity and reputation of being the first to usher in a new generation of clean energy. Yet, for some reason, they are never selected. Rossi himself stated there was literally hundreds of commercial customers lined up to purchase eCats. HE SHOULD / COULD have picked one of them but HE did not WANT to. The NDA’s are his! (By the way, IH has not even been in the picture for 5 years, so we should keep our facts up to date.)
            .
            I do not even know if the contract is the same one that IH signed! I am not saying that it is not, I am simply saying that I do not know. There easily could be amendments, attachments, rewrites, who knows what we have not seen. IH made a press release stating “do not believe anything unless it comes from us”. Why does that not have any weight? Because they do not post daily? Rossi calls everyone one snakes and puppets! We are just to automatically believe EVERY word he says or does not say? I look at the history of both and Darden clearly has a much more respected track record than Rossi. This does not make Rossi wrong…. but it certainly should give one pause to accuse Darden with no confirmed evidence.
            .
            One thing I will stick my neck out on and say is this :
            Darden is no fool. He is not stupid. He has experienced and qualified advisors. There are those posting here that are trying to make Darden as a novice rookie with no experience in contracts, big projects or big money. That Darden is some type of small time crook, just off the street! They have even belittled the Woodford group. Those who think as such are seriously mistaken! Regardless who is morally “Right” or “Wrong”, do not even begin to think someone of Darden’s caliber is so easily trapped as many here post!

          • builditnow

            Photo’s of two containers parked out the back of JM Products, “maybe”, to be verified as the correct address and office space.
            These photos come from google street view dated Feb 2014. These photo’s are currently up on Google. Feb 2014 could be too early a date, or, earlier testing?
            The Google satellite photo is of unknown date, shows the containers out the back, Google indicate 2016.

            The last photo is of the business name that “seems” to identify the space where the containers are parked.

            Also, look closely at the junk around the bottom of these containers, they have been parked there for a while. I’d be cautious about trusting Google’s “image capture” date as being accurate.
            This would need further research to be identified as related to JM Products.
            If it’s the right place, other satellite companies can be a source of images, one takes daily photo’s at lower resolution.
            What do you think?

          • builditnow

            The containers are behind a different section of the building, I was able to identify using the logo of the company next door 2otran (or something like that) that JM Products occupies the 3rd office entrance, from the right of the building, as viewed from the front of the building. The containers are parked out the back between the 1st and 2nd office entrance from the right of the building as view from the front. I suppose it possible that JM Products is a miss-direction and the actual production is where the containers are parked. Are they still there? Anyone close by?

          • Engineer48

            JM is at 7861, which is the 3rd unit from the Northern end of the building or 3rd unit from the left, looking from the front/street view.

          • Engineer48

            Did not use SSM?

            As I understand SSM, folding part of the excess heat back to drive the reaction (reducing electrical energy input) is how high COP is achieved. Too little thermal foldback and it dies away as electrical drive then increases. Too much thermal feedback and it melts.

            Needs real time active control system to keep the thermal foldback % in the sustainable range. As the control system improves it’s ability to manager / regulate the thermal foldback, the system can push to higher levels levels of thermal foldback (reducing electrical drive) and achieve higher and higher COP.

            At some point the need for electrical input to create heat is eliminated, then the question is how long can totally self sustaining thermal feedback be maintained?

            Ideally should only need a small amount of electrical energy to generate trigger heat and from then on the reactor works from thermal foldback heat 24/7 in SSM.

          • DrD

            That’s incredible. Could they really be so naive as to sign a contract with a final payout of $89m believing it was optional?

          • Engineer48

            The payment of the $11.5m gave them all the IP they needed.

            If I was Rossi, the final $89m would have been in escrow as a part of the requirement of the IP transfer. But as it was not in escrow, well IH may have decided to see if they could get out of the payment.

          • DrD

            Yes, appreciated. So in part it depends how the contract wording stands up in court.
            The other thing that might be ambiguous is to what extent AR is required to grant them “improvements” in the IP. The new quark could well be viewed as just an improvement.

          • Engineer48

            IH not making the final payment would seem to put them in default and as such the “Default” conditions of the contract take over.

            As I read the Default, IH has all rights terminated and they can’t engage in any LENR related business.

            BTW the contract also has “Non Compete” conditions which would seem to have the effect of stopping IH engaging in any LENR related business activites with any competitor of Leonardo. So any investment in another LENR entity or passing Leonardo shared IP would also trigger a default.

          • Engineer48

            The endothermic reaction stores heat energy in chemical bonds and not so much as black body radiated heat.

            But sure there will be some black body heat radiated but the vast majority of the heat energy will be stored as new chemical bonds in the final product.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            That may be correct. However, an example of such a process (beyond ice melting) would be helpful. We have also to consider that 1MW is a lot of power, so even 5% waste heat would not be negligible, given the estimated size of the room.

          • Engineer48

            For sure there is waste heat. 5% loss would probably be a very good result.

            For endothermic processes please checkout:
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endothermic_process

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I know how endothermic reactions work. Among the examples, I could not find a single one that would fit. Either these processes are not used in chemical plants (at least not of the type one could expect here), or they require higher temperatures.

          • dickyaesta

            See my post above hi,hi.

          • dickyaesta

            Maybe the client is fusing metals heavier than iron in order to obtain GOLD with the heat Rossi so abundantly applies via the hole in the wall.

            Just following your link to endothermic processes in Wikipedia. The making of gold might be an interesting twist to this saga. And one kilogram of gold doesn’t occupy much space or it might even be the production of NI 62. And some production of a bit air conditioning on the side it can be damn hot in the summer in Southern Florida

          • dickyaesta

            Or was there any excessive snow reported last summer in Southern Florida using “The Client’s” new snowmachine. I am getting a bit poetical here to lighten things up a bit after so many years depressing posts

          • Ged

            I guess they could use the output to drive refrigeration processes… seems like an inefficient waste of all that energy, but what do I know.

          • Timar

            Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas

            There are many possibilities though. Someone should definitively have a clooser look at this garbage container…

          • Mats002

            E48: Please enlighten us with your wizdom of endothermic processes that could be set up in that space without a very visible supply chain like ice in, water out.

          • Engineer48

            Others have said the customer produces catalytic converters. Don’t think that involves driving ice through a phase change to make water.

          • Mats002

            A process please, still waiting…

          • Engineer48

            I’m not a chemical engineer, so have limited knowledge of endothermic manufacturing processes and products. However do understand the physical / chemical processes involved and thus you can’t discount the customer does have a endothermic manufacturing process that consumes the 24MWh daily production.

            That said why would IH, claiming via nckhawk, the 1MW plant manufactured and tested in Raleigh could not generate any excess heat, ship, install and commission the plant in Doral and charge the customer $1,000 per day for 24MWh of daily heat delivery if the max the plant could deliver was limited by the 300kW electrical supply to 7.2MWh of daily heat delivery at a max COP = 1?

            Sorry but something does not add up.

          • psi2u2

            Brilliant.

          • There are numerous logical “pinch points” such as that in this saga. Until Industrial Heat did its about face and publicly claimed inability to substantiate and refused to pay Rossi it was all pointing in the same direction.

            Now with IH apparently (!) asserting fraud on Rossi’s part we’re back to square one and revisiting all those pinch points wondering how they could be invalid.

            I can’t see how they can be. Or at least I’m far from convinced yet that IH has a credible counter-story.

            June legal disclosures should crystallize the fault lines.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Darden has said very little, but he did advice people to only listen to IH’s official comments. Perhaps we should believe him on that.

          • Ged

            I agree. Too much of this talking for IH stuff is hurting their position unfairly. We need the facts and data in their defense to know more of the truth, and it could flip everything on its head for all we know.

          • SG

            But then he (or at least IH) apparently started planting leaks everywhere. Seems kind of contradictory doesn’t it?

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Not if he anticipated pseudo-leaks would be coming.

          • SG

            Now that is a term (pseudo-leaks) I have never heard of before. 🙂

          • Pekka Janhunen

            I made up the word, but it seems to also be in use, for example here (OT) http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3841/snowden_a_pseudo_martyr_for_a_pseudo_leak

          • wpj

            It’s clear that people have not been in a chemical production facility. I worked in one (north of Barcelona, so fairly hot). There were about 15 reactors going which were heated by Dowtherm at up to 180C. There was very little heat at all in the plant as everything is lagged and the only heat lost is into the vessel. The hot fluid returns to the tank to be heated back to the appropriate temperature.

            In the case of the metal catalysts, there are produced by leaching with sodium hydroxide at 90C. Water has a huge thermal capacity and huge amounts of heat input would be required. A fully insulated system, to reduce costs, is obvious.

          • Mats002

            Either the customer is part of a scam (COP <= 1) or 1MW 27/7 was produced in that space. It is hard to see any inbetween scenarios.

          • Engineer48

            Mats002,

            I agree the grey area between the 2 claims is quickly turning into black becoming white, with no grey.

            When NCkhawk made the statement that “No Trusted IH Engineer” had been in contact with the plant since it left Raleigh until it was padlocked in Doral, well you know something is not right.

            Having looked at the photos of the plant and all the control wiring, my opinion is installing this plant is not a Plug & Play exercise and quite some amount of manufacturer’s engineers time and effort went into doing the install & commissioning. That seems beyond dispute. Also the customer’s engineers would need to be involved to integrate the plant with the customer’s load.

            Then to learn NCkhawk claimed these installation, commissioning, integration and ride out engineers, suddenly, when Rossi presented his account for $89m, became “UnTrusted” and new, never seen the plant before, but “Trusted” engineers were sent to padlock the plant. Well, that is a really strange thing to do unless IH decided it had all what it needed from Rossi, in paying him the initial $11.5m and asked themselves why they needed Rossi anymore as they had his IP, the 1MW reactor and the HotCat reactor he helped them to make and the world’s 1st 1MW LENR reactor that had run for 12 months.

            So just padlock the plant, refuse to pay the money owing and claim the plant never created 1 watt of excess heat watt (including the IH designed and manufactured HotCat Dog Bone reactors sent to Lugano) and all the IH people that worked on the plant for the past year were now invisible, “not trusted” IH staff.

            Very strange. Well maybe not.

          • Omega Z

            Heat is used as binding energy of chemicals.
            There is no longer heat as it was Transformed into those bindings.

            Consider 2 chemicals once binded have no heat.

            Mix the 2 chemicals together causing a reaction that then releases that binded heat such as in making foam insulation etc…

  • Mats002

    Just trying to sum it all up: The part of the building that is JM is 47×12 meter say 6 meter up to the roof (it seams to be two floors, workshop downstairs, offices upstairs. The 1 MW container can’t go inside without breaking something 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Then if 1 MWh/h 24/7 were produced inside then the neighbours certanly would complain about the heat, the walls inside should be very stressed by that amount of heat in that (small) volume. The paint would come off the walls. And nobody noticed this happen???

    • NCkhawk

      Not to mention the boiling of the roof materials and annealing of the steel or aluminum structure.

      • Ged

        1 MW of heat isn’t that big (unless you focus it like a laser; while this is just heating up water till steam). But here are some interesting examples of much higher amounts of heat used in district heating and the sorts of methods/issues for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating . Should give some perspective.

      • Engineer48

        Please stop trolling. You are just showing you know nothing about engineering and are just making stuff up.

        • NCkhawk

          E48 – wait until you see the simulations for the various power settings of the 1MW in this environment.

          • Ged

            I already calculating the max heating you could reasonably get in that space for normal residential insulation. There would be no annealing of steel or aluminum, it wouldn’t even hit the flashpoint for gasoline. And the heat was being distributed into the neighboring office too, by your own admission, so it would be no where near as hot as you try to claim.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Could you repeat your calculation for 50 kW average power (assuming that 5% waste heat had to be dissipated)?

          • Ged

            Sure thing. For that 154 foot by 39 foot by 20 foot space (~6000 square feet with 20 foot ceilings), for average residential insulation, 50 kW of heating would rise the air temperature by… a little over 31 F (10.56 C), equal to about 170,202 BTU/h.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Thanks. That’s a figure one could live with, I think.

          • NCkhawk

            Looks like the IH expert witnesses and the Rossi expert witnesses get to sort this one out. Fine with me.

          • Frank Acland

            This is better done in court. I have said that I don’t want the comments on ECW to be an alternate courtroom, so please let’s end this here. If IH wants to make official comments and statements I would invite them to put out statements, or maybe have a site where they can publish their thoughts on the matter.

          • Ged

            That’ll be very interesting to see indeed. The sooner we get IH’s defense data, the better.

          • Engineer48

            Simple question.

            Did IH have people they paid do the install, commissioning and ride out the 1 year test?

            Not interested if they were “Trusted” by IH or not. Just if they were paid by IH or an associated entity for their time spent doing the 1MW plant install, commission, customer integration and ride out?

          • Engineer48

            Yes please.

    • Engineer48

      Have you even been in a warehouse? Small 1 to 2 story office space at the front, maybe 15% of length. High ceilings space for 85% of length.

      As for heat, seems you have not read my endothermic posts?

      • Mats002

        I did before writing the post. Are you saying 1 MW 24/7 in a process where a high % if the energy in is dissapating to the surrondings is NOT a problem in the space you just described?

        • Engineer48

          Heat is used to drive endothermic production processes & final product creation. Every radiated / lost kWh of heat is represented by reduced production. So in a properly designed production line, there should be minimal radiated / lost heat.

          So no business will be paying IH $1,000 per DAY for heat that just radiated into the surrounding space.

          Additionally the heat generation plant should regulate thermal output by adjusting output to keep returned water temp constant so the heat produced is what is needed.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I guess that even with a highly endothermic reaction and good insulation one would get plenty of waste heat when the reactor vessel is opened and the product is removed. I cannot imagine an industrial process that needs temperatures >= 100C to run, but ends up with reaction products at room temperature.

          • It would also require production (endothermic reaction) 24/7.

          • Engineer48

            Mats,

            Simple to match production heat to used hear by monitoring return water temp and regulating heat generation to maintain returned water temp constant. Of course there are other ways to do the regulation.

            There seems to be a few folks here that have little understanding of endothermic processes.

          • Stephen

            If the steam is heating some gas or vapor under high pressure in a heat exchanger and that gas is released to lower pressure i suppose it would cool?

            I suppose that gas would then need to be vented though or otherwise used in some process, unless it liquifies and is collected or reused.

          • Bruce__H

            I certainly have little understanding of endothermic processes on the industrial scale. Can you give an example of such a process together with a heat budget? I am interested in how efficient the process can be.

          • TVulgaris

            Unless you utilize a thermal reservoir for demand-smoothing a cyclic or varying-temperature process (which a well-insulated water tank represents quite well)- 10 or 20KL, perhaps…

          • TVulgaris

            This is sufficient to store 24MWH with only a few (less than 10) degrees temperature change, the full daily output of the reactor.

          • Engineer48

            Melt ice. The temp never changes.

            As I said before, every lost KWh is reflected in reduced endothermic production.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Come on, E48… Why would anybody need a factory that melts ice?

          • Engineer48

            Phase change of ice was just an example of a endothermic reaction that does not release heat but instead absorbes it.

          • Engineer48

            The endothermic reaction stores heat energy in chemical bonds and not so much as black body radiated heat.

            But sure there will be some black body heat radiated but the vast majority of the heat energy will be stored as new chemical bonds in the final product.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            That may be correct. However, an example of such a process (beyond ice melting) would be helpful. We have also to consider that 1MW is a lot of power, so even 5% waste heat would not be negligible, given the estimated size of the room.

          • Engineer48

            For sure there is waste heat. 5% loss would probably be a very good result.

            For endothermic processes please checkout:
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endothermic_process

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I know how endothermic reactions work. Among the examples, I could not find a single one that would fit. Either these processes are not used in chemical plants (at least not of the type one could expect here), or they require higher temperatures.

          • dickyaesta

            See my post above hi,hi.

          • dickyaesta

            Maybe the client is fusing metals heavier than iron in order to obtain GOLD with the heat Rossi so abundantly supplies via the hole in the wall.

            Just following your link to endothermic processes in Wikipedia. The making of gold might be an interesting twist to this saga. And one kilogram of gold doesn’t occupy much space or it might even be the production of NI 62. And some production of a bit of air conditioning on the side it can be damn hot in the summer in Southern Florida

          • dickyaesta

            Or was there any excessive snow reported last summer in Southern Florida using “The Client’s” new snowmachine. I am getting a bit poetical here to lighten things up a bit after so many depressing posts.

          • Ged

            I guess they could use the output to drive refrigeration processes… seems like an inefficient waste of all that energy, but what do I know.

          • Timar

            Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming

            There are many possibilities though. Someone should definitively have a clooser look at this garbage container…

          • Mats002

            E48: Please enlighten us with your wizdom of endothermic processes that could be set up in that space without a very visible supply chain like ice in, water out.

          • Engineer48

            Others have said the customer produces catalytic converters. Don’t think that involves driving ice through a phase change to make water.

          • Mats002

            A process please, still waiting…

          • Engineer48

            I’m not a chemical engineer, so have limited knowledge of endothermic manufacturing processes and products. However do understand the physical / chemical processes involved and thus you can’t discount the customer does have a endothermic manufacturing process that consumes the 24MWh daily production.

            That said why would IH, claiming via nckhawk, the 1MW plant manufactured and tested in Raleigh could not generate any excess heat, ship, install and commission the plant in Doral and charge the customer $1,000 per day for 24MWh of daily heat delivery if the max the plant could deliver was limited by the 300kW electrical supply to 7.2MWh of daily heat delivery at a max COP = 1?

            Sorry but something does not add up.

          • psi2u2

            Brilliant.

          • There are numerous logical “pinch points” such as that in this saga. Until Industrial Heat did its about face and publicly claimed inability to substantiate and refused to pay Rossi it was all pointing in the same direction.

            Now with IH apparently (!) asserting fraud on Rossi’s part we’re back to square one and revisiting all those pinch points wondering how they could be invalid.

            I can’t see how they can be. Or at least I’m far from convinced yet that IH has a credible counter-story.

            June legal disclosures should crystallize the fault lines.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Darden has said very little, but he did advice people to only listen to IH’s official comments. Perhaps we should believe him on that.

          • Ged

            I agree. Too much of this talking for IH stuff is hurting their position unfairly. We need the facts and data in their defense to know more of the truth, and it could flip everything on its head for all we know.

          • SG

            But then he (or at least IH) apparently started planting leaks everywhere. Seems kind of contradictory doesn’t it?

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Not if he anticipated pseudo-leaks would be coming.

          • SG

            Now that is a term (pseudo-leaks) I have never heard of before. 🙂

          • Pekka Janhunen

            I made up the word, but it seems to also be in use, for example here (OT) http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3841/snowden_a_pseudo_martyr_for_a_pseudo_leak

          • wpj

            It’s clear that people have not been in a chemical production facility. I worked in one (north of Barcelona, so fairly hot). There were about 15 reactors going which were heated by Dowtherm at up to 180C. There was very little heat at all in the plant as everything is lagged and the only heat lost is into the vessel. The hot fluid returns to the tank to be heated back to the appropriate temperature.

            In the case of the metal catalysts, there are produced by leaching with sodium hydroxide at 90C. Water has a huge thermal capacity and huge amounts of heat input would be required. A fully insulated system, to reduce costs, is obvious.

          • Mats002

            Either the customer is part of a scam (COP <= 1) or 1MW 27/7 was produced in that space. It is hard to see any inbetween scenarios.

          • Engineer48

            Mats002,

            I agree the grey area between the 2 claims is quickly turning into black becoming white, with no grey.

            When NCkhawk made the statement that “No Trusted IH Engineer” had been in contact with the plant since it left Raleigh until it was padlocked in Doral, well you know something is not right.

            Having looked at the photos of the plant and all the control wiring, my opinion is installing this plant is not a Plug & Play exercise and quite some amount of manufacturer’s engineers time and effort went into doing the install & commissioning. That seems beyond dispute. Also the customer’s engineers would need to be involved to integrate the plant with the customer’s load.

            Then to learn NCkhawk claimed these installation, commissioning, integration and ride out engineers, suddenly, when Rossi presented his account for $89m, became “UnTrusted” and new, never seen the plant before, but “Trusted” engineers were sent to padlock the plant. Well, that is a really strange thing to do unless IH decided it had all what it needed from Rossi, in paying him the initial $11.5m and asked themselves why they needed Rossi anymore as they had his IP, the 1MW reactor and the HotCat reactor he helped them to make and the world’s 1st 1MW LENR reactor that had run for 12 months.

            So just padlock the plant, refuse to pay the money owing and claim the plant never created 1 watt of excess heat watt (including the IH designed and manufactured HotCat Dog Bone reactors sent to Lugano) and all the IH people that worked on the plant for the past year were now invisible, “not trusted” IH staff.

            Very strange. Well maybe not.

          • Omega Z

            Heat is used as binding energy of chemicals.
            There is no longer heat as it was Transformed into those bindings.

            Consider 2 chemicals once binded have no heat.

            Mix the 2 chemicals together causing a reaction that then releases that binded heat such as in making foam insulation etc…

  • sam

    I am not sure if they are friends.
    They do seem to respect each other.

  • billH

    Given that it was stated many times in the logs that the backup plant was also still on site this means that there were at least two container. Therefore this can’t possibly be the site. This can only be viewed as an attempt at misdirection.

    • Josh G

      I tend to agree with you that this was not the actual test site, although Mats Lewan did apparently receive an electric bill with this location as the service address, and that electric bill was said to be from the first month of the test, and the location appears to match what eyewitnesses report having seen. Though it is entirely possible that that information is incorrect or somebody’s attempt at misdirection.

      Further down in this thread, IH insider Dewey Weaver (aka nckhawk) says that the 1MW plant was located next door, with heat/water being passed through the wall between the two locations. But in that case presumably the electric bill for the suite next door is the relevant one…?

      Nckhawk has said elsewhere that the 1MW heater was padlocked shut by IH (and then Rossi), while Rossi maintains it is still being used by the customer. If it is still being used, then it should still be occupying the office next door, which unfortunately Radius11 did not get a picture of. (But kudos to him for the sleuthing he did!)

      • I’m not sure Rossi claims the plant is still in use. Where did he state that? Might be mixing up things though.

        • Josh G

          I don’t remember where I read it and don’t have time now to figure it out. It’s possible that I am mixed up. I just seem to remember reading that Rossi said he recharged it after the test and then the customer just continued using it. Both scenarios could be accurate if it was shut down once the lawsuit was filed…

          • wpj

            One year thread, update #40.

          • Omega Z

            Rossi had metioned they would recharge the 2 reactors that were drifting off, but then the test was concluded. The customer is UK based. As this facility was setup only for the purposes of the test, I’m quite certain the 1MW plant and all else has been removed from the premises.

            The customer has ordered what will be revised E-cat designed systems for existing operations elsewhere. Not the test facility.

        • Rossi did say that they had replaced the charges and at the very least strongly implied that the customer was still using it.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            NCkhawk wrote that the plant has been locked due to the upcoming litigation. So maybe they changed the original plan (if there was any).

          • Yeah that would make sense.

        • billH

          Who would move it? IH already paid $1.5M for it.

          • Ged

            You know, that’s a really pertinent question. Even if everything had worked flawlessly between Rossi and IH, what would IH have done with it next?

          • Omega Z

            This is not the 1MW plant IH paid for in the begining.

            The original 1MW plant had 106- 10 kilowatt reactor modules of which not all would fit inside the container. There was a layer of 10KW reactor modules on the exterior top of the container.

            This is a New 1MW plant and different shipping container that IH and their people built under Rossi’s supervision. There were 52- 20KW reactor modules all within the container as well as the 4- 250KW reactors that were actually used in the 1 year test.

            The 52- 20KW reactor modules were held as reserve should the 250KW reactors failed. Other then being fired up at the beginning to assure they worked, they were never in operation after that. As to ownership of this 1MW plant, depends on what is in the contract.

          • billH

            “This is not the 1MW plant IH paid for in the beginning.”, OK, so where is that then?

            “There were 52- 20KW reactor modules all within the container as well as the 4- 250KW reactors that were actually used in the 1 year test.” Are you sure about this? This container is turning into a TARDIS.

            Why would IH allow AR to have two 1MW plants in the one container, in the expectation that one would fail?

            Which contract? It seems quite clear which 1MW reactor IH purchased from the contract we have seen from the legal case. It’s the one they paid $1.5M for. If subsequent plant was built, then who paid for it to be built? and why wasn’t the test carried out on the original plant? too many unanswered questions.

          • Engineer48

            From info I have gathered, it seems IH manufactured the 2 x 1MW reactors in the 40ft container in their facility in Raleigh as they did the Dog Bone HotCat reactors they supplied to the Lugano test group.

            NCkhawk claims IH own the reactors.

            Rossi has said that Leonardo supplied nothing to IH but their IP and advise. He said IH manufactured all the reactors, formulated the fuel used and loaded the reactors plus supplied people to install the reactors in Doral and more people to stay with the plant and ride out the test.

            NCkhawk says the only time “Trusted IH Engineers” saw the plant after it left Raleigh was when it was padlocked in Doral. Seems IH used that “Trusted” classification to get around admitting they had people at the plant all the time as Rossi claims.

            So it seems IH employ “Trusted” and “Non Trusted” staff. Wonder how IH employees alter their status?

          • can somebody please write a script that automatically up votes E48’s posts for me. my finger is getting tired.

          • Omega Z

            I wonder how many iiteration’s were there of the I-Phone over it’s 6 plus years of development before the 1st came to market?

            The reason why they had 2- 1MW setups is the 250KW reactors were the latest new iiteration of the E-cat. Should it not have worked properly in concert, they would have switched to the 52- 20KW setup for the test.

            At the following link, you’ll find pictures of the IH team building the new 1MW systems including hand manufacturing the controls in a yellowish container.

            http://andrea-rossi.com/1mw-plant/

            Follow’s is Rossi’s original 1 MW E-cat plant complete with the 10KW reactors on top for lack of internal space. Who has the original. Ask Tom Darden. It was delivered as the shipping documents were discovered and revealed here at ECW.
            http://postimg.org/image/h2jo1ysc9/

            Following is Rossi inside the new 1MW E-cat container.
            You see the 20KW reactors along the walls with the 4- 250KW reactors stacked 1 above the other to the back.

            http://1zi1nw7qb8j26yrfx15kzsp4.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ECAT-in-operation-604×605.jpg

    • Engineer48

      The backup plant and prime plant are in the same 40′ container. Please check the photos.

      There are 3 high bay roll a door in the warehouse unit which means there could be 3 parallel containers in the rear portion of the warehouse.

    • I might be wrong but I think the backup modules were in the same container. There are some pictures from test time that show the larger new modules in one section and the more numerous smaller modules at the other end.

      The second crate was always described as the control/observation crate where they spent most of their time, worked on computers etc.

      EDIT: to continue, there is enough room for 2 crates in that building and we also cannot assume that they didn’t have the adjacent office space and pipe the steam/water through the wall.

    • NCkhawk

      BillH – I think that these addresses are the ones that are listed on Rossi’s legal filings. I also don’t recall reading anything about any backup systems as part of the test that Rossi outlines in his complaint. I may not have this correct but If all the action happened somewhere else then its legit to conclude that the litigation documents have to be corrected.

      • Engineer48

        Please look at the photos of the plant IH manufactured in a 40′ container containing a central island 4 horizontal slab 250kW reactors at one end of the container and at the other end of the 40′ container the backup 1MW side wall mounted older style reactors.

        1st photo is looking into the container from the 1MW side wall mounted backup reactor end and the 2nd photo is looking into the container from the prime 1MW central island mounted reactor.

        BTW in the 3rd photo you can see the end of the prime central island mounted reactor and you can see it again in the 1st photo as the back of the backup older style side wall mounted 1MW reactor.

        As you seem to not understand this, I doubt you are nckhawk / Weaver from Mat’s blog and don’t have any real knowledge of this affair.

        • NCkhawk

          E48 – your efforts are admirable and sorry, I’m the same guy.

          You need to continue with your analysis. There were not any heat exchangers anywhere and temps inside that building would have cooked a human to medium rare in short order. You should post the picture of Rossi in his light jacket – must have been chilly that day.

          • Are you being intentionally dense? That’s troll behavior. Frank, put this guy on alert.

            An endothermic process (i.e., the reason why you need the heat in the first place) would likely consume most of the energy produced… Therefore, not cooking Rossi or anyone else in there. Not to mention that I’m sure they had an air conditioner. In Florida every 100 square feet seems like it has an air conditioner.

          • NCkhawk

            I’m intentionally trying to understand how to account for all of that heat the Rossi claims his system generated 24/7 for 350 out 400 days. I don’t think that is trolling. I don’t see any need to repeat the other questions regarding the need for endothermic specifics. You’re very passionate about your argument and very protective of Rossi which is as equally as admirable as E48’s efforts.

          • SG

            Did you visit JM Products? Have you been inside the building? If so, then maybe you can share with us your thoughts. Certainly someone from IH was there and observed what was going on. After all, IH was being paid for the heat, correct?

          • Ged

            If the heat was being moved into the other office too, and used in any way (melting anything, driving any steam equipment/engines/presses, etc) it would not have been that hot. There are many ways to extract energy from steam without losing it as heat into the environment.

    • peacelovewoodstock

      Some info on the address from officespace.com:

      ” 5,925 Total Square Feet
      ” 3 Dock Doors
      ” 3 Private Offices, 1 Conference Room
      ” Reception Area, Kitchenette
      ” 2 Restrooms: 1 Office, 1 Warehouse
      ” Column Free
      ” 40′ Wide Warehouse
      ” 8 Assigned Parking Spaces
      ” 20′ Clear Height Ceiling

      40′ wide warehouse, ‘column free’ seems plenty of room for several shipping containers 8′ x 40′ footprint.

      That’s only 320 square feet out of almost 6,000 square feet total in the space.

      • Ged

        Actually a pretty nice place, thanks for those stats!

        If all of the 1 MW plant heat production was focused constantly as heat solely and losslessly into that space, it would reach ~500 F (260 C) inside (based on normal residential building insulation; cooler if insulation is less as typical in warehousing). Hotter than people can take, but actually not as hot as most people probably think when they hear 1 MW. Obviously, if that heat is being dispersed or used in any significant way, it would not get that hot–and one can calculate the amount of cooling BTUs that would compensate for room heating based on the percentage of the 1 MW steam heat that is used.

        • Omega Z

          If the majority of that heat energy is used in product production, then it isn’t a problem. Also, It’s possible that this is used in the form of superheated water in a closed loop. Not steam.

          • The quantity of heat energy could only be reduced if it is used to drive a strongly endothermic reaction. Otherwise it must be actively ejected from the building as hot air or water.

      • TVulgaris

        There aren’t big ISO numbers on these things (of course, they could just be painted over), so presumably they’re 8.5 X 9.5 X 40 feet outside (the photo perspective heavily obfuscates this)- a little bigger, maybe 350 ft.^2 footprints, That still leaves over 5000 ft.^2. If 1000 ft.^2 is dedicated to the offices, conference room, restrooms, kitchenette, reception, and hallways, the warehouse is 40′ X 100’…that’s space ample for some very big machines.

    • billH, do you care to retract your statement? There have been no valid reasons raised for why this could not be the site of the plant test.

      * It’s big enough for 2 crates.
      * The “backup” was actually collocated in the same plant.
      * The loading bay opening is big enough for a crate to fit through.
      * Most of the energy would have been used in the customer process (something to do with metal sponge catalysts perhaps), not vented into the space.

    • Omega Z

      The 4-250KW reactors take up about 4 cubic meters total at 1 end of the container. They and the 52-20KW reactors were all in the same container. The computers, controls and observation room was in a 2nd container set along side the 1MW E-cat container.

  • billH

    Given that it was stated many times in the logs that the backup plant was also still on site this means that there were at least two container. Therefore this can’t possibly be the site. This can only be viewed as an attempt at misdirection.

    • Josh G

      I tend to agree with you that this was not the actual test site, although Mats Lewan did apparently receive an electric bill with this location as the service address, and that electric bill was said to be from the first month of the test, and the location appears to match what eyewitnesses report having seen. Though it is entirely possible that that information is incorrect or somebody’s attempt at misdirection.

      Further down in this thread, IH insider Dewey Weaver (aka nckhawk) says that the 1MW plant was located next door, with heat/water being passed through the wall between the two locations. But in that case presumably the electric bill for the suite next door is the relevant one…?

      Nckhawk has said elsewhere that the 1MW heater was padlocked shut by IH (and then Rossi), while Rossi maintains it is still being used by the customer. If it is still being used, then it should still be occupying the office next door, which unfortunately Radius11 did not get a picture of. (But kudos to him for the sleuthing he did!)

      • I’m not sure Rossi claims the plant is still in use. Where did he state that? Might be mixing up things though.

        • Josh G

          I don’t remember where I read it and don’t have time now to figure it out. It’s possible that I am mixed up. I just seem to remember reading that Rossi said he recharged it after the test and then the customer just continued using it. Both scenarios could be accurate if it was shut down once the lawsuit was filed…

          • wpj

            One year thread, update #40.

          • Omega Z

            Rossi had metioned they would recharge the 2 reactors that were drifting off, but then the test was concluded. The customer is UK based. As this facility was setup only for the purposes of the test, I’m quite certain the 1MW plant and all else has been removed from the premises.

            The customer has ordered what will be revised E-cat designed systems for existing operations elsewhere. Not the test facility.

        • Rossi did say that they had replaced the charges and at the very least strongly implied that the customer was still using it.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            NCkhawk wrote that the plant has been locked due to the upcoming litigation. So maybe they changed the original plan (if there was any).

          • Yeah that would make sense.

        • NCkhawk

          The 1MW unit from this test better still be padlocked. It is subject to a legal dispute and was left in a state where it could not be tampered with.

          Regarding the “customer”, 24/7 for 350 days is a very long time to prove out an improvement in production efficiency and energy savings.

          The “ERV” report and supporting data will be very telling once it becomes available for everyone’s review. There might even be a homework assignment before it is released.

        • billH

          Who would move it? IH already paid $1.5M for it.

          • Ged

            You know, that’s a really pertinent question. Even if everything had worked flawlessly between Rossi and IH, what would IH have done with it next?

          • Omega Z

            This is not the 1MW plant IH paid for in the begining.

            The original 1MW plant had 106- 10 kilowatt reactor modules of which not all would fit inside the container. There was a layer of 10KW reactor modules on the exterior top of the container.

            This is a New 1MW plant and different shipping container that IH and their people built under Rossi’s supervision. There were 52- 20KW reactor modules all within the container as well as the 4- 250KW reactors that were actually used in the 1 year test.

            The 52- 20KW reactor modules were held as reserve should the 250KW reactors failed. Other then being fired up at the beginning to assure they worked, they were never in operation after that. As to ownership of this 1MW plant, depends on what is in the contract.

          • billH

            “This is not the 1MW plant IH paid for in the beginning.”, OK, so where is that then?

            “There were 52- 20KW reactor modules all within the container as well as the 4- 250KW reactors that were actually used in the 1 year test.” Are you sure about this? This container is turning into a TARDIS.

            Why would IH allow AR to have two 1MW plants in the one container, in the expectation that one would fail?

            Which contract? It seems quite clear which 1MW reactor IH purchased from the contract we have seen from the legal case. It’s the one they paid $1.5M for. If subsequent plant was built, then who paid for it to be built? and why wasn’t the test carried out on the original plant? too many unanswered questions.

          • Engineer48

            From info I have gathered, it seems IH manufactured the 2 x 1MW reactors in the 40ft container in their facility in Raleigh as they did the Dog Bone HotCat reactors they supplied to the Lugano test group.

            NCkhawk claims IH own the reactors.

            Rossi has said that Leonardo supplied nothing to IH but their IP and advise. He said IH manufactured all the reactors, formulated the fuel used and loaded the reactors plus supplied people to install the reactors in Doral and more people to stay with the plant and ride out the test.

            NCkhawk says the only time “Trusted IH Engineers” saw the plant after it left Raleigh was when it was padlocked in Doral. Seems IH used that “Trusted” classification to get around admitting they had “UnTrusted??” IH people at the plant all the time as Rossi claims.

            So it seems IH employ “Trusted” and “Non Trusted” staff. Wonder how IH employees alter their status?

          • can somebody please write a script that automatically up votes E48’s posts for me. my finger is getting tired.

          • Omega Z

            I wonder how many iiteration’s were there of the I-Phone over it’s 6 plus years of development before the 1st came to market?

            The reason why they had 2- 1MW setups is the 250KW reactors were the latest new iiteration of the E-cat. Should it not have worked properly in concert, they would have switched to the 52- 20KW setup for the test.

            At the following link, you’ll find pictures of the IH team building the new 1MW systems including hand manufacturing the controls in a yellowish container.

            http://andrea-rossi.com/1mw-plant/

            Follow’s is Rossi’s original 1 MW E-cat plant complete with the 10KW reactors on top for lack of internal space. Who has the original. Ask Tom Darden. It was delivered as the shipping documents were discovered and revealed here at ECW.
            http://postimg.org/image/h2jo1ysc9/

            Following is Rossi inside the new 1MW E-cat container.
            You see the 20KW reactors along the walls with the 4- 250KW reactors stacked 1 above the other to the back.

            http://1zi1nw7qb8j26yrfx15kzsp4.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ECAT-in-operation-604×605.jpg

    • Engineer48

      The backup plant and prime plant are in the same 40′ container. Please check the photos.

      There are 3 high bay roll a door in the warehouse unit which means there could be 3 parallel containers in the rear portion of the warehouse.

    • I might be wrong but I think the backup modules were in the same container. There are some pictures from test time that show the larger new modules in one section and the more numerous smaller modules at the other end.

      The second crate was always described as the control/observation crate where they spent most of their time, worked on computers etc.

      EDIT: to continue, there is enough room for 2 crates in that building and we also cannot assume that they didn’t have the adjacent office space and pipe the steam/water through the wall.

    • NCkhawk

      BillH – I think that these addresses are the ones that are listed on Rossi’s legal filings. I also don’t recall reading anything about any backup systems as part of the test that Rossi outlines in his complaint. I may not have this correct but If all the action happened somewhere else then its legit to conclude that the litigation documents have to be corrected.

      • Engineer48

        Please look at the photos of the plant IH manufactured in a 40′ container containing a central island 4 horizontal slab 250kW reactors at one end of the container and at the other end of the 40′ container the backup 1MW side wall mounted older style reactors.

        1st photo is looking into the container from the 1MW side wall mounted backup reactor end and the 2nd photo is looking into the container from the prime 1MW central island mounted reactor.

        BTW in the 3rd photo you can see the end of the prime central island mounted reactor and you can see it again in the 1st photo as the back of the backup older style side wall mounted 1MW reactor.

        As you seem to not understand this, I doubt you are nckhawk / Weaver from Mat’s blog and don’t have any real knowledge of this affair.

        • NCkhawk

          E48 – your efforts are admirable and sorry, I’m the same guy.

          You need to continue with your analysis. There were not any heat exchangers anywhere and temps inside that building would have cooked a human to medium rare in short order. You should post the picture of Rossi in his light jacket – must have been chilly that day.

          • Are you being intentionally dense? That’s troll behavior. Frank, put this guy on alert.

            An endothermic process (i.e., the reason why you need the heat in the first place) would likely consume most of the energy produced… Therefore, not cooking Rossi or anyone else in there. Not to mention that I’m sure they had an air conditioner. In Florida every 100 square feet seems like it has an air conditioner.

          • NCkhawk

            I’m intentionally trying to understand how to account for all of that heat the Rossi claims his system generated 24/7 for 350 out 400 days. I don’t think that is trolling. I don’t see any need to repeat the other questions regarding the need for endothermic specifics. You’re very passionate about your argument and very protective of Rossi which is as equally as admirable as E48’s efforts.

          • SG

            Did you visit JM Products? Have you been inside the building? If so, then maybe you can share with us your thoughts. Certainly someone from IH was there and observed what was going on. After all, IH was being paid for the heat, correct?

          • Ged

            If the heat was being moved into the other office too, and used in any way (melting anything, driving any steam equipment/engines/presses, etc) it would not have been that hot. There are many ways to extract energy from steam without losing it as heat into the environment.

    • peacelovewoodstock

      Some info on the address from officespace.com:

      ” 5,925 Total Square Feet
      ” 3 Dock Doors
      ” 3 Private Offices, 1 Conference Room
      ” Reception Area, Kitchenette
      ” 2 Restrooms: 1 Office, 1 Warehouse
      ” Column Free
      ” 40′ Wide Warehouse
      ” 8 Assigned Parking Spaces
      ” 20′ Clear Height Ceiling

      40′ wide warehouse, ‘column free’ seems plenty of room for several shipping containers 8′ x 40′ footprint.

      That’s only 320 square feet out of almost 6,000 square feet total in the space.

      • Ged

        Actually a pretty nice place, thanks for those stats!

        If all of the 1 MW plant heat production was focused constantly as heat solely and losslessly into that space, it would reach ~500 F (260 C) inside (based on normal residential building insulation; cooler if insulation is less as typical in warehousing). Hotter than people can take, but actually not as hot as most people probably think when they hear 1 MW. Obviously, if that heat is being dispersed or used in any significant way, it would not get that hot–and one can calculate the amount of cooling BTUs that would compensate for room heating based on the percentage of the 1 MW steam heat that is used.

        • Omega Z

          If the majority of that heat energy is used in product production, then it isn’t a problem. Also, It’s possible that this is used in the form of superheated water in a closed loop. Not steam.

          • The quantity of heat energy could only be reduced if it is used to drive a strongly endothermic chemical reaction, with materials being continuously supplied and taken away. Only a relatively small proportion of the thermal energy could be absorbed in this way. Unlikely anyway, as this would need a continuous 24/7 movement of trucks, of which there is no indication, and for which access appears to be very limited (not least by the divider wall).

            Otherwise it must be actively ejected from the building as hot air or water.

            In the UK there are regulations about how much hot water may be discharged to drains on an industrial site (its not much) – it’s probably much the same in the US. That leaves hot air from condensers or radiators, ejected from one or more roof vents.

      • TVulgaris

        There aren’t big ISO numbers on these things (of course, they could just be painted over), so presumably they’re 8.5 X 9.5 X 40 feet outside (the photo perspective heavily obfuscates this)- a little bigger, maybe 350 ft.^2 footprints, That still leaves over 5000 ft.^2. If 1000 ft.^2 is dedicated to the offices, conference room, restrooms, kitchenette, reception, and hallways, the warehouse is 40′ X 100’…that’s space ample for some very big machines.

    • billH, do you care to retract your statement? There have been no valid reasons raised for why this could not be the site of the plant test.

      * It’s big enough for 2 crates.
      * The “backup” was actually collocated in the same plant.
      * The loading bay opening is big enough for a crate to fit through.
      * Most of the energy would have been used in the customer process (something to do with metal sponge catalysts perhaps), not vented into the space.

    • Omega Z

      The 4-250KW reactors take up about 4 cubic meters total at 1 end of the container. They and the 52-20KW reactors were all in the same container. The computers, controls and observation room was in a 2nd container set along side the 1MW E-cat container.

  • Ged

    And why didn’t IH reinstall their stuff or verify the new stuff worked right? They built and owned the container, no one not even Rossi could stop them–especially as this was a test for them that they would have to pay for if it was successful. They were there every day.

    This claim doesn’t pass the smell test. At the very least, they’d have to be criminally incompetent.

    • NCkhawk

      Ged – IH trusted engineers didn’t have access to the plant after it left Raleigh until inspection day when it was padlocked.

      • Ged

        Yeah no, that is even less believable. If IH people were there, then “trusted” IH people could be there too, particularly since IH owns the plant and the “customer” is paying them for its operation, so IH is materially responsible for its performance and handling. If IH “trusted” personal were being blocked from entry (but of course not these fabeled “not trusted” IH employees), one call to the police would have solved that.

        No. That claim is the third least believable thing you have said yet (other than the steel and aluminum and boiling roof, and the see it from space line). You can hide all day in the attempt to frame things as “trusted” or “not trusted”, but IH could have had anyone they wanted in there and were in control. And worst, apparently Darden and investors visited (and people Mats has contact with), so “trusted” people could have come along with them, unless Darden and anyone around him are not “trusted” IH employees.

        Truth is, nothing could stop IH from having whatever people it wants to define as “trusted” there to check things out. So, that is one lame excuse that harms IH’s position, not helps it, as a lot of your talk has sadly done lately.

      • Engineer48

        @nckhawk

        So what entity engineers installed & commissioned the plant & integrated the customer’s thermal load with the plant?

        As the customer had no production at the site, prior to the plant providing the heat, it seems reasonable it would take some time to achieve max production. So the customers thermal load on the plant would ramp up over time and may have required the pkant control systems to be adjusted, creating an extended commissioning & integrations period.

        When was the plant delivered to 7863 46th street Doral?

        Was the plant tested at Raleigh, after manuf was completed but prior to being shipped to Doral? If so what were the test results. If not why ship an untested plant to Doral?

      • Engineer48

        “IH trusted engineers” is a strange definition.

        Were there IH people in the plant as Rossi claims?

        Did IH people work to install, commission the plant & to integrate the customer’s load with the plant?

        Were the customer’s engineers involved in this process?

  • Ged

    1 MW of heat isn’t that big (unless you focus it like a laser; while this is just heating up water till steam). But here are some interesting examples of much higher amounts of heat used in district heating and the sorts of methods/issues for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating . Should give some perspective.

  • Ged

    You would not see this from space, that is hyperbole; you don’t see the multi gigawatt heat of power plants.

    Remember, the heat is being turned into steam, so that is only a few hundred C in temperature at max (the pipes certainly survive!). 1 MW is not that much unless you focus it on a very small area (W per square meter is the metric you are looking for).

  • Engineer48

    Please stop trolling. You are just showing you know nothing about engineering and are just making stuff up.

    • NCkhawk

      E48 – wait until you see the simulations for the various power settings of the 1MW in this environment.

      • Ged

        I already calculating the max heating you could reasonably get in that space for normal residential insulation. There would be no annealing of steel or aluminum, it wouldn’t even hit the flashpoint for gasoline. And the heat was being distributed into the neighboring office too, by your own admission, so it would be no where near as hot as you try to claim.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Could you repeat your calculation for 50 kW average power (assuming that 5% waste heat had to be dissipated)?

          • Ged

            Sure thing. For that 154 foot by 39 foot by 20 foot space (~6000 square feet with 20 foot ceilings), for average residential insulation, 50 kW of heating would rise the air temperature by… a little over 31 F (10.56 C), equal to about 170,202 BTU/h.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Thanks. That’s a figure one could live with, I think.

      • Engineer48

        Yes please.

  • Engineer48

    Ok you are clearly not nckhawk / Weaver from Mat’s blog as you clearly do not know the requirements to trigger the payment of the $89m.

    • Timar

      Can you provide a reference if you think 24/7 continuous 1MW heat production was not part of the requirements? AFAIK that is exactly what Rossi himself stated repeatedly on his blog.

    • NCkhawk

      E48 – you’re wrong but it doesn’t matter who you think I am. If you’d like to focus on the $89M payment as the main issue then we can go there but I prefer to focus on the matter at hand. There can be not dispute – the test terms are in Rossi’s legal filing are is very clear.

  • Guest

    Here is another photo that was included in one of Rossi’s patent applications (http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn85804314&docId=IPC20150505114510#docIndex=11&page=3), along with a letter from Henry Johnson stating that the photo was from JM Products’ factory.

    Consistent with details shared by Mats and others from folks who visited there appears to be a pipe leading from the unit through a wall.

    It’s unclear, but looks to me like that wall is a temporary one constructed within the same space (e.g. a separation within the 7861 address) vs a wall between different offices in the building (but maybe there’s another pipe through a more permanent wall that’s not shown). It looks like there is some light filtering in from the right that would be consistent with the bay door openings, so my guess is that a temporary wall was built bi-secting the space with the reactor housed in the rear of the building and a “production” area in the front. That wall does not appear to go up to the ceiling, so to me it would seem that anyone visiting the reactor area should be able to hear production activity.

    There appear to be 2 shipping containers, consistent with the idea of reactor in one and controls in the other, which would leave 1 unobstructed loading door. As mentioned before, I am skeptical that an active production area would be sealed off from the point of loading due to the inherent operational inefficiency, but the availability of one remaining loading dock doesn’t make it impossible that commercial product was moved in/out. It would be interesting to hear from a neighbor whether there was recurring loading dock activity. I will stop my speculation there.

    • Ged

      You can see… something large on the other side of the divider thing, too (more of a fence than a wall, really). I wonder what it is; and the thing going over the top of the fence. Can also see a lot of scuffing on the ground by some sort of tires or something; so heavy equipment was moving about.

      Really interesting analyzing this in light of the new information we are accruing.

      • The tyre skid marks look like they were made before the divider was installed, as they seem to go under it. Probably from a large fork lift truck used to push/pull the containers into place.

        Looks like the the two insulated pipes connect directly to the large object on the other side of the divider. The object could be another container from its size and apparent shape. The relative darkeness at the left hand side, plus the apparent lack of access, doesn’t suggest any kind of production to me. More likely IMO, the object is a dedicated test and measurement facility, presumably with some kind of fan cooler/condenser to eject the heat to a roof vent – but exactly why you would want to hide this from view is a bit of a mystery.

        I wonder what the big red tank on a sturdy stand is for? The matching colour suggests that it is a part of the installation. Perhaps it contained a year’s supply of strong Italian coffee for AR?

  • Frank Acland

    This is better done in court. I have said that I don’t want the comments on ECW to be an alternate courtroom, so please let’s end this here. If IH wants to make official comments and statements I would invite them to put out statements, or maybe have a site where they can publish their thoughts on the matter.

  • Ged

    That’ll be very interesting to see indeed. The sooner we get IH’s defense data, the better.

  • Bud Collin

    Concerning Rossi’s building at 7861 NW 46th St.
    This property was sold for $1,150,000 on May 07, 2014.
    The last sale before that was on February 20, 2008.

    In this photo you can also confirm that a company called Ledakon
    was the previous owner of 7861.
    http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/14448657/7863-NW-46th-Street-MIAMI-FL/
    They were an electronics retailer,
    seems they specialized in home theater equipment.

    The place next door, 7859, is owned by Rontan.
    You can see their name on the door.
    This is a N.A. office for a Brazilian company that makes
    emergency equipment.

    http://www.rontan.com/

    They bought the place May 01, 2009, for $880,000.

    The other side of is 7863. According to this site
    http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/19259396/7863-NW-46th-St-Doral-FL/
    this building was for sale as of June 2015. The listing
    also mentions that the owners can include the adjacent building
    in the deal, which appears to be 7865 and previously owned by
    Technopack packaging.

    So, it is highly unlikely that Rossi was pumping 1MW of heat through
    the wall to his neighbor.

    • Thanks, I did wonder who might have occupied #7863. No holes in the back, so the heat must have exited via the roof vent(s) visible in satellite images.

      $1,150,000 is a lot of money to tie up in a property that only seems to have been rented out once (for $70-odd K by JM Products) since it was purchased two years ago. The owner needs to talk to his investment portfolio manager. Perhaps it will have historical value one day.

    • Why does your 2nd last paragraph support your final statement?

  • Is this the most entertaining thread in the history of ECW? I think so! In the top 5 for sure.

    Anyway, I agree with Ged, I think the more Weaver posts the worse it looks for IH. No wonder IH needed more than 21 days to fabricate a defence.

    I really can’t wait to see what they can come up with. When they do, I’m sure we’ll have a new most entertaining thread champion.

  • Sanjeev

    me356 drops a new bomb.
    me: Certainly, nobody can’t stop the revolution now.
    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1275-me356-Reactor-parameters/?postID=18245#post18245

    • LuFong

      Yes he sounds very confident. Let’s hope it doesn’t “bomb.”

    • SG

      “I would like to share everything, but can’t at the moment. Please be patient.”

      Do we know what is holding up his sharing of the information? The MFMP could really use some additional pointers to increase the COP right about now. While many ideas abound, me356 is ahead of the pack in terms of results, and would be nice if he could open up a bit more. This could quickly bring convergence of the various approaches. Of course, that is completely his prerogative. But if he did, he would certainly hold a special place in MFMP’s history.

      • Frank Acland

        Maybe he hasn’t submitted a patent yet.

        • SG

          Could very well be the case. If it is, then I’d remind him that once a patent application is filed, there really is no reason to hold back release of the information. If there is rapid uptake of your improvement in the market, it only serves to increase the value of your potential patent.

          • Omega Z

            Providing details and answering to questions is time consuming. Likely not enough hours in the day. I also assume he has a day job. He is doing this on the side.

      • LuFong

        I think he wants to get the COP up so that there no question about the results. His claim of COP is about 2+ now but he thinks he can go much higher. It seems to me that he wants to get a bullet proof system before releasing. Until then he wants to work as quickly as possible so he’s cutting out the “documentation.”

    • LuFong

      me356: I don’t intend to be a Rossi clone. We do not need any investor, any
      secret customer or wait years for results. I strongly believe that a
      working device will be available in terms of weeks. This mean sooner
      than the e-cat.

      Required data are available for approx. 100 years. You only have to search. There is so much to learn.

      https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1275-me356-Reactor-parameters/?postID=18264#post18264

      me356 sounds very confident. I hope he’s right. No more Rossi games….

  • Sanjeev

    me356 drops a new bomb.
    me: Certainly, nobody can’t stop the revolution now.
    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1275-me356-Reactor-parameters/?postID=18245#post18245

    • SG

      “I would like to share everything, but can’t at the moment. Please be patient.”

      Do we know what is holding up his sharing of the information? The MFMP could really use some additional pointers to increase the COP right about now. While many ideas abound, me356 is ahead of the pack in terms of results, and would be nice if he could open up a bit more. This could quickly bring convergence of the various approaches. Of course, that is completely his prerogative. But if he did, he would certainly hold a special place in MFMP’s history.

      • Frank Acland

        Maybe he hasn’t submitted a patent yet.

        • SG

          Could very well be the case. If it is, then I’d remind him that once a patent application is filed, there really is no reason to hold back release of the information. If there is rapid uptake of your improvement in the market, it only serves to increase the value of your potential patent.

          • Omega Z

            Providing details and answering to questions is time consuming. Likely not enough hours in the day. I also assume he has a day job. He is doing this on the side.

  • OFF TOPIC: @Frank, when links get truncated in disqus they don’t copy and paste well. Can we turn off the truncation or is it not an option?

    • Frank Acland

      Unfortunately it is not an option. I have got into the habit of right clicking them and choosing “copy link address”

  • LuFong

    It seems to me that someone capable with some heat transfer background will be able to evaluate Rossi’s setup. Even if we don’t know the exact details, can some things be determined? For example, the best steam boilers are only about 85% efficient. To me that means that at best Rossi is only able to convert about 85% of his heat to steam. The rest is lost to the environment in the form of heat unless he has some serious heat re-capture mechanisms. And this is also not counting heat loss due to transfer of steam from one building to the next. 150kWh/h seems like a lot of heat.

    Also I figured that Rossi will have to pump about 422 gals of water an hour in the form of steam in order to generate 1MWh/h of energy from steam. Given the heat loss in the efficiency of converting heat to steam this might be only about 350 gallons/hr. I’m not sure about the pumps used etc but I’m just throwing this out there to get someone with a better understanding of steam generation for industrial processes to weight in.

    I usually get in trouble with these kinds of calculations but somebody out there surely can do a better job. I might be way off here. Anyone?

    • Omega Z

      6 or 7 gallons a minute dependent on a few variables. It is according to Rossi a closed loop sysytem for this test.

      The specs on the 1MW indicate 1 to 2 bar of pressure. If this is maintained throughout the system, there is no steam. Only superheated water. The heat energy would be transitioned into the product(Note Engineer48 explains). There would only be some residual heat lost by radiation from uninsulated plumbing and hardware. Pictures indicate the plumbing is insulated.

      • LuFong

        Superheated water needs higher pressures than steam,although it depends on how you measure it*. And superheated water holds less energy than steam (by weight) so you would need more of it (by weight) for the same amount of heat transfer. By volume it would be less although at the same pressure I think steam wins (not sure about this).

        The density of water to the density of steam is about 1666 at 1 ATM. At 2 ATM I think it’s one half that or 833. 6-7 gallons a minute is roughly 1 cf in volume per minute (a little less). For steam at 1 ATM it would be 1666 cf/minute.

        I’ll have to do some more sleuthing/figuring but those pipes I’m seeing don’t look big enough to me. These are just my “layman” calculations and I could be way off here. Where’s Thomas Clarke when you need him?

        *From Wikipedia: “For example, to heat water from 25 °C to steam at 250 °C at 1 atm
        requires 2869 kJ/kg. To heat water at 25 °C to liquid water at 250 °C at
        5 MPa requires only 976 kJ/kg.” 5MPa is about 50 atm.

        • Omega Z

          The water temp of the E-cat is 100°C to 120°C.

          I have 1/2″ ID pipe that flows 4 gallons a minute with no problem. However, you have to account for bar pressure.
          The bar pressure in the U.S. is about 4-5 average.

          All we know is the E-cat in this test is a closed loop system and is less then 2 bar and the water is heated in 4 different reactors or about 1.5 gallons a minute each.

  • Frank Acland

    Unfortunately it is not an option. I have got into the habit of right clicking them and choosing “copy link address”

  • Pietro F.

    And here is the Rossi’s car!!
    2016 Cadillac CTS.

    • SG

      Decent car. And your point is?

      • artefact

        Rossi told us he drives a Cadillac CTS.

        • Ged

          At least we know he’s there ;)!

        • SG

          Ahh thanks. As closely as I follow this story, I find myself missing all kinds of tidbits.

    • sam

      When was this picture taken.
      How do you know for sure it is A.R. car
      Good sleuthing.

      • Engineer48

        Without knowing the license number, there is no way to be sure.

        I do note that it is normal for Europeans to back into a parking space and not normal (as far as I have seen) for Americans to do so.

        Also it is parked in front of 7865 46th street Doral and if NCkhawk is right that the plant is in 7863 46th street, Rossi only had to walk through the right of the Pink wall entry door to get to his container office.

  • Pietro F.

    And here is the Rossi’s car!!
    2016 Cadillac CTS.

    • SG

      Decent car. And your point is?

      • artefact

        Rossi told us he drives a Cadillac CTS.

        • Ged

          At least we know he’s there ;)!

        • SG

          Ahh thanks. As closely as I follow this story, I find myself missing all kinds of tidbits.

    • sam

      When was this picture taken.
      How do you know for sure it is A.R. car
      Good sleuthing.

      • Engineer48

        Without knowing the license number, there is no way to be sure.

        I do note that it is normal for Europeans to back into a parking space and not normal (as far as I have seen) for Americans to do so.

        Also it is parked in front of 7865 46th street Doral and if NCkhawk is right that the plant is in 7863 46th street, Rossi only had to walk through the right of the Pink wall entry door to get to his container office.

  • Alex Fenrick

    Do we know if Rontan is currently in the unit nextdoor? Depending on where you look 7859 NW 46th St 33166 also comes up as Rossini Marble. LOL yes “Rossini”… the Rossini/Rossi coincidence is REALLY odd now if that is the unit where the pipe leads….amusing at very least!

    • James Nolan

      Well, their name is on the door and the phone number in their listing is them. I called it to make sure.

    • Ged

      That Rossini marble company has been around for a long time, it is unrelated to Rossi. Just a funny similarity in Italian names, but that’s like saying John and Joe are coincidentally oddly similar names, for an English example.

      • SG

        Yes, as explored in quite some detail awhile ago. Why do these ludicrous things keep popping up? Who is promulgating them? Alex, where did you hear this?

        • Alex Fenrick

          SG…it’s the weekend man…you gotta take a joke. I am obviously joking because I was the one who actually said it was 100% coincidence before. Scroll down to see….

          • SG

            Okay, cool then. I just tire of the “stupidities” that I see surrounding LENR, and whoever proposed this originally (can’t remember if it was you) did not present it as if it were a joke. But I agree, it is jokeworthy.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Yea I believe Rossini Marble started back in the 90s or something, I just think its a wild coincidence if it ends up being the unit he pipes into lol…but definitely just a coincidence…..unless…..He created a time warp with a miscalculation in the E-Cat one night, went back in time, opened Rossini Marble under a fake name, bought that unit, set up underground tunnels to vent steam, came back here to present day, and here we find ourselves……the plot thickens…..

        • Ged

          We shall have to get you to be one of the writers for the live adaption movie ;).

    • Matt

      IIRC the neighbor company in Italy (cant remember the town) was “Rossi Tires” or something.

  • Jamie

    So some industrial company spent over a million bucks to buy a unit in Doral FL. in May 2014. They used a small time local real estate lawyer to set up a shell company called JM Products later that year because their own lawyers must have been busy. Then they installed some sort of manufacturing process in half the building that requires 1MW of heat energy 24/7. Then they agreed to buy the heat from Rossi who used the other half of the building to stick his containers. They could not possibly have been producing that heat for themselves before Rossi. Why would anyone spend the money to install a 1 MW heating unit in a new facility and tear it out 8 months later? The company would also not have bought a space that is much larger than they needed unless they were planning on Rossi’s containers to be there.
    I think that Rossi set up JM Products. You will never see evidence that the Ecat lowered the electric bills because there was no heat production before Rossi. The “customer” would need to have an identical facility somewhere else to compare electric costs. This is smelling really rotten to me.

    • Ged

      I can comment towards your “lowering electric bill” statement. You are wrong in your logic and assumptions.

      It doesn’t matter if anything was there before or not (nothing was), because we know how much the customer is paying for 1 MW of heat ($1000 a day). We also know how much 1 MW of heat would cost if it was done via normal electricity utilities (more than double $1000 a day). So the customer is saving on their bill. If they are competing with gas, then the price is closer to equal, but I believe other’s calculations in previous threads showed the current payments are still a bit cheaper than gas would be.

      So, we can indeed know the customer is saving considerable money, -if- 1 MW of heat is indeed being delivered (production logs would show that).

      With the electric bill for the facility, we can measure how much power the E-cat is drawing, and use that along with the production logs to get a COP.

      All sorts of information we wish we had.

    • SG

      I’m pretty sure JM Products leases their portion of the building, along with each of the other tenants in the building.

  • Jamie

    So some industrial company spent over a million bucks to buy a unit in Doral FL. in May 2014. They used a small time local real estate lawyer to set up a shell company called JM Products later that year because their own lawyers must have been busy. Then they installed some sort of manufacturing process in half the building that requires 1MW of heat energy 24/7. Then they agreed to buy the heat from Rossi who used the other half of the building to stick his containers. They could not possibly have been producing that heat for themselves before Rossi. Why would anyone spend the money to install a 1 MW heating unit in a new facility and tear it out 8 months later? The company would also not have bought a space that is much larger than they needed unless they were planning on Rossi’s containers to be there.
    I think that Rossi set up JM Products. You will never see evidence that the Ecat lowered the electric bills because there was no heat production before Rossi. The “customer” would need to have an identical facility somewhere else to compare electric costs. This is smelling really rotten to me.

    • Ged

      I can comment towards your “lowering electric bill” statement. You are wrong in your logic and assumptions.

      It doesn’t matter if anything was there before or not (nothing was), because we know how much the customer is paying for 1 MW of heat ($1000 a day). We also know how much 1 MW of heat would cost if it was done via normal electricity utilities (more than double $1000 a day). So the customer is saving on their bill. If they are competing with gas, then the price is closer to equal, but I believe other’s calculations in previous threads showed the current payments are still a bit cheaper than gas would be.

      So, we can indeed know the customer is saving considerable money, -if- 1 MW of heat is indeed being delivered (production logs would show that).

      With the electric bill for the facility, we can measure how much power the E-cat is drawing, and use that along with the production logs to get a COP.

      All sorts of information we wish we had.

    • SG

      I’m pretty sure JM Products leases their portion of the building, along with each of the other tenants in the building.

  • Ged

    You can see… something large on the other side of the divider thing, too (more of a fence than a wall, really). I wonder what it is; and the thing going over the top of the fence. Can also see a lot of scuffing on the ground by some sort of tires or something; so heavy equipment was moving about.

    Really interesting analyzing this in light of the new information we are accruing.

    • Looks like the the two pipes connect directly to the large object on the other side of the divider. The object could be another container from its size and apparent shape. The relative darkeness at the left hand side doesn’t suggest any kind of production to me. More likely, the object is a dedicated test and measurement facility, presumably with some kind of condenser to eject the heat to a roof vent.

      I wonder what the big tank on a sturdy stand is for?

  • Ged

    That Rossini marble company has been around for a long time, it is unrelated to Rossi. Just a funny similarity in Italian names, but that’s like saying John and Joe are coincidentally oddly similar names, for an English example.

    • SG

      Yes, as explored in quite some detail awhile ago. Why do these ludicrous things keep popping up? Who is promulgating them? Alex, where did you hear this?

  • LuFong

    We don’t KNOW really anything. Most of what we think we know comes from Rossi. Still I think he has referred to things in terms of steam in the past including the E-Cat turning water into steam so it’s probably a good assumption. However when someone asked him about steam versus pressurized hot water he deferred the question so who knows. This is typical Rossi.

    • Ged

      I remember most of our assumptions about steam came from looking at the piping in the 1 MW plant pictures. It’s a good question though, and smart to challenge our assumptions.

      • LuFong

        No. I’m going through his blog. He talks about steam, “Yesterday, at 2.35 a.m., a nasty leak of steam”, 56 thermocouples to measure steam, etc. Still this is Rossi and there is always uncertainty with his answers. We don’t KNOW anything really.

        • Ged

          Right, and I’m pretty sure from the pipe designs, they wouldn’t be able to handle the water pressures necessary to keep water at such temperatures in liquid form. Hence I recall our experts at the time saying they were clearly steam pipes (along with associated insulation). Maybe some more expert dissection of the pictures would clear it up, or may just be another not-completely-but-assumed-known.

          • LuFong

            Yes although everyone could be wrong. The ERV report should also clear this up since the data is measure something coming out and something coming in. Rossi did say that there are 56 thermocouples measuring “water steam” and 56 thermocouples measuring water. That should be 52 for the 20K reactors and 4 for the 250K reactors I think.

          • BillH

            According to AR the backup reactors were never brought into action, so that would be just 8 thermocouples.

        • TomR

          Superheated water turns to steam when the pressure goes to atmospheric.

  • Ged

    We shall have to get you to be one of the writers for the live adaption movie ;).

  • pelgrim108
  • pelgrim108
  • etburg

    Guys, not at my desktop so can’t include the link. Next big future tweeted in the last 12 hours on a 35 page “independent validation report” on Brillouin’s boiler. This is a preemptive strike. I think it’s clear where IH is laying their bets… I leave to others to speculate why.

    • From December I believe. Not seeing any new tweets.

      http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/12/brillouin-energy-has-35-page-third.html

      • etburg

        My bad. I did not realize I was responding to a retweet of a tweet from several months ago. In retrospect though, the timing of the Brillouin report release is still interesting for the same reasons.

      • Thor

        Wow, nice! I didn’t realize the ripped off both the low temperature E-Cat (WET Boiler) and the Hot-Cat (HHT Reactor)! And then paid an independant party to make their own cut rate version of the Lugano report.

  • Engineer48

    Normally supply is adjusted to match demand. So there should not be any significant unused heat.

    One possible way to match supply to demand is to monitor return water temperature (should increase as generated heat is not used) and adjust plant output to maintain return water temp constant.

  • Thanks, I did wonder who might have occupied #7863. No holes in the back, so the heat must have exited via the roof vent(s) visible in satellite images – if we accept that this is really the test site.

    $1,150,000 is a lot of money to tie up in a property that only seems to have been rented out once (for $70-odd K by JM Products) since it was purchased two years ago. The owner needs to talk to his investment portfolio manager. Perhaps it will have historical value one day.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    One additional thought on the „heat dissipation problem“. A car motor may need about 300 kWh of chemical energy to produce 100 kWh of mechanical energy. That is, at full speed 200 kWh of waste heat per hour will be released via the exhaust and the cooler. It seems that the problem is not as big as suspected, especially if we consider that most of the energy from Rossi’s plant has been consumed by some endothermic process (as proposed by Engineer48).

    • Mats002

      Someone asked this interesting question 2 year ago: http://www.thescienceforum.com/chemistry/41485-strongest-endothermic-reactions.html

      Good answers too. Someone might want to crunch some numbers around this?

      • Mats002

        Question is: What is the least possible flow-of-material (something in, something else out) for constant 24/7 1MW energy put into the proposed endothermic reactions?

        Include waste heat in the answer or describe how waste heat can be hold at close to zero in the proposed process.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I guess if you had a closed loop you could keep waste heat low for most of the time. But you would likely have to handle considerable amounts of it when you open the loop to remove the product. That would be easier if you had an outlet near the door, for example.

          BTW, if the COP was much lower than 50 (I think COP 6 would also be ok), waste heat handling would not appear to be an issue. There are still many possible scenarios at the moment.

        • DrD

          Sounds like an exam question, in which case PASS (as in go to next question).
          Seriously though, it depends on what the process is. If only we knew, we could hazard a guess. It was said the output is a catalyst so the question becomes, “how much of X catalyst per hour can be produced from 1MW of steam at ~130 deg C”.
          Whaat is X, any chemists with ideas?
          Ultimately, the reaction will probably stop below some temperature but in that case, is the steam recycled (to be reheated). If so, then there may be very little waste heat to be “dumped”.

    • Ged

      It is truly amazing how much heat one can jettison with enough air flow through a small pipe. And the airflow out of a car isn’t even that high (most of the heat is lost when the air expands upon leaving the vehicle, the whole PV=nRT), and the radiator is also small due to combining it with a convective fan. There are so many engineering solutions to the heating problem,

      It always amazed me looking at how closed space steel mills were, with molten metal and blast furnaces everywhere, yet people walking around obviously not fried (there are a lot of awesome modern pictures, but I don’t want to auto-fill up this post with photos of it; look it up though, it is staggering seeing a little person at the maw of a giant furnace filled with molten metal at 2,700 F). This reference from the EU says typical mills they looked at take 20 GJ/t of steel, or 9.5 GJ/t for mini-mills ( http://cordis.europa.eu/pub/estep/docs/wg7-final-report.pdf ). In an Ohio steel mill, the electric arc furnace uses 100 MW of electricity, and other furnaces use 60 MW, for 1 billion kWh of electricity used a year ( http://www.trade.gov/td/energy/Matt%20Morris,%20North%20Star%20BlueScope.pdf ). Now that is some serious heat! Yet, it’s all managed so the place doesn’t melt through the earth’s crust. There are always solutions for dealing with immense heat.

      • Engineer48

        A nearby 750MWe thermal power plant generates around 2,500MW of 600C steam. No biggie. So while 1MWt of heat sounds a lot, in reality to industrial processes, it is nothing.

        • Ged

          I have to completely agree, after calculating the heating and looking at other industry references. The true scale of human industry is utterly staggering. To think, one would need 60 of these 1 MW E-cat reactors to drive a Hot Strip mill. It’s amazing how huge industrial scale is compared to our every day experiences.

          • Engineer48

            Or to drive that 750MWe thermal plant’s 600C subcritical steam turbines, would need 2,500 1MW HotCat reactors! That is a lot of 20ft containers!

    • US_Citizen71

      Consider a 5% loss to the environment for the 1MW plant, which would be 50kW and not that hard to deal with considering the size of the space and the standard cooling system it would require due to building regulation. In my youth I worked for a tanning salon in Florida. We had 6 beds that ran as close to constant as we could accomplish with short down times to clean and push customers in and out, each bed held 48 bulbs that were 55 watts each for a total of 2640 watts per bed. Times six gives 15480 watts. A fluorescent tube is about 6% efficient at changing electricity to light so that leaves about 14890 watts as waste heat just from the bed lights, we also had fans to blow air over the customers and cool the bed machinery, overhead lighting, a computer, refrigerator, coffee pot, a washer and dryer for the towels, humans, etc… generating heat in the space. Our shop measured 16′ x 60′ we able to keep the shop habitable with nothing more than the commercial grade air conditioner that came with the space.

      • DrD

        Yes that’s not unreasonable. Actually, the full 2640 watts will have ended up as heat, just that the 6% would first heat the customer and the inside of the bed and add to the 0.15kw that a typical body generates. Either way I agree it’s a lot of heat to remove but not by any means impossible.
        Unless we know how the steam was being used it’s just speculation, there might in fact have been very little waste heat, assuming it was “stored” efficiently in an endothermic process, we just don’t know.
        It’s probably a bit too late to send a FLIR equiped drone overhead.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    One additional thought on the „heat dissipation problem“. A car motor may need about 300 kWh of chemical energy to produce 100 kWh of mechanical energy. That is, at full speed 200 kWh of waste heat per hour will be released via the exhaust and the cooler. It seems that the problem is not as big as suspected, especially if we consider that most of the energy from Rossi’s plant has been consumed by some endothermic process (as proposed by Engineer48).

    • Mats002

      Someone asked this interesting question 2 year ago: http://www.thescienceforum.com/chemistry/41485-strongest-endothermic-reactions.html

      Good answers too. Someone might want to crunch some numbers around this?

      • Mats002

        Question is: What is the least possible flow-of-material (something in, something else out) for constant 24/7 1MW energy put into the proposed endothermic reactions?

        Include waste heat in the answer or describe how waste heat can be hold at close to zero in the proposed process.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I guess if you had a closed loop you could keep waste heat low for most of the time. But you would likely have to handle considerable amounts of it when you open the loop to remove the product. That would be easier if you had an outlet near the door, for example.

          BTW, if the COP was much lower than 50 (I think COP 6 would also be ok), waste heat handling would not appear to be an issue. There are still many possible scenarios at the moment.

        • DrD

          Sounds like an exam question, in which case PASS (as in go to next question).
          Seriously though, it depends on what the process is. If only we knew, we could hazard a guess. It was said the output is a catalyst so the question becomes, “how much of X catalyst per hour can be produced from 1MW of steam at ~130 deg C”.
          Whaat is X, any chemists with ideas?
          Ultimately, the reaction will probably stop below some temperature but in that case, is the steam recycled (to be reheated). If so, then there may be very little waste heat to be “dumped”.

    • fact police

      Moraitis wrote:

      One additional thought on the „heat dissipation problem“. A car motor may need about 300 kWh of chemical energy to produce 100 kWh of mechanical energy. That is, at full speed 200 kWh of waste heat per hour will be released via the exhaust and the cooler. It seems that the problem is not as big as suspected, especially if we consider that most of the energy from Rossi’s plant has been consumed by some endothermic process (as proposed by Engineer48).

      Energy stored chemically (electromagnetic potential energy) is low entropy, just like mechanical potential energy, and can in principle be converted to work with high efficiency (with a process like a fuel cell), or into heat at a much higher temperature through simple combustion.

      As such it is subject to the 2nd law and the limits of Carnot efficiency for producing work from heat, or for transferring heat from low to high temperature.

      And this means that the conversion of heat at 100C into some kind of low entropy chemical energy at ambient temperature cannot be done at better than the Carnot efficiency of about 20% or so — worse than your example of a car motor because the temperature is lower. In practice it would be much lower, so something above 80% of the heat will still have to be dissipated from the room or some kind of cooling mechanism.

      The 2nd law is a bitch.

    • fact police

      I withdraw the previous comment, or at least the definitiveness of it. The premise of lower entropy was mistaken. It seems there are such things as thermoreversible chemical reactions (Fischer et al., Energy Procedia 48 (2014) 327), which, if I understand it correctly, means heat can be stored chemically without reduction of entropy, and therefore with high efficiency. The search for such processes for purposes of storing thermal energy is currently active, so it’s seems unlikely they would be used in what is presented as a practical factory, but it’s not impossible in principle. Mea culpa.

      • DrD

        In a closed system entropy always increases (or no change). Highest “quality” (eg temperature, order) = lowest entropy. You would therefore desire to store it without INCREASED entropy. Nevertheless, as long as you can store it endothermically it’s a secondary issue whether or not it is stored without increased entropy or not. THe point being that any endothermc reaction will remove “heat” from the steam and that heat would not then need to be dumped by radiators, Aircon or the like.

        • Engineer48

          Correct.

    • Ged

      It is truly amazing how much heat one can jettison with enough air flow through a small pipe. And the airflow out of a car isn’t even that high (most of the heat is lost when the air expands upon leaving the vehicle, the whole PV=nRT), and the radiator is also small due to combining it with a convective fan. There are so many engineering solutions to the heating problem,

      It always amazed me looking at how closed space steel mills were, with molten metal and blast furnaces everywhere, yet people walking around obviously not fried (there are a lot of awesome modern pictures, but I don’t want to auto-fill up this post with photos of it; look it up though, it is staggering seeing a little person at the maw of a giant furnace filled with molten metal at 2,700 F). This reference from the EU says typical mills they looked at take 20 GJ/t of steel, or 9.5 GJ/t for mini-mills ( http://cordis.europa.eu/pub/estep/docs/wg7-final-report.pdf ). In an Ohio steel mill, the electric arc furnace uses 100 MW of electricity, and other furnaces use 60 MW, for 1 billion kWh of electricity used a year ( http://www.trade.gov/td/energy/Matt%20Morris,%20North%20Star%20BlueScope.pdf ). Now that is some serious heat! Yet, it’s all managed so the place doesn’t melt through the earth’s crust. There are always solutions for dealing with immense heat.

      • Engineer48

        A nearby 750MWe thermal power plant generates around 2,500MW of 600C steam. No biggie. So while 1MWt of heat sounds a lot, in reality to industrial processes, it is nothing.

        • Ged

          I have to completely agree, after calculating the heating and looking at other industry references. The true scale of human industry is utterly staggering. To think, one would need 60 of these 1 MW E-cat reactors to drive a Hot Strip mill. It’s amazing how huge industrial scale is compared to our every day experiences.

          • Engineer48

            Or to drive that 750MWe thermal plant’s 600C subcritical steam turbines, would need 2,500 1MW HotCat reactors! That is a lot of 20ft containers!

    • US_Citizen71

      Consider a 5% loss to the environment for the 1MW plant, which would be 50kW and not that hard to deal with considering the size of the space and the standard cooling system it would require due to building regulation. In my youth I worked for a tanning salon in Florida. We had 6 beds that ran as close to constant as we could accomplish with short down times to clean and push customers in and out, each bed held 48 bulbs that were 55 watts each for a total of 2640 watts per bed. Times six gives 15480 watts. A fluorescent tube is about 6% efficient at changing electricity to light so that leaves about 14890 watts as waste heat just from the bed lights, we also had fans to blow air over the customers and cool the bed machinery, overhead lighting, a computer, refrigerator, coffee pot, a washer and dryer for the towels, humans, etc… generating heat in the space. Our shop measured 16′ x 60′ we able to keep the shop habitable with nothing more than the commercial grade air conditioner that came with the space.

      • DrD

        Yes that’s not unreasonable. Actually, the full 2640 watts will have ended up as heat, just that the 6% would first heat the customer and the inside of the bed and add to the 0.15kw that a typical body generates. Either way I agree it’s a lot of heat to remove but not by any means impossible.
        Unless we know how the steam was being used it’s just speculation, there might in fact have been very little waste heat, assuming it was “stored” efficiently in an endothermic process, we just don’t know.
        It’s probably a bit too late to send a FLIR equiped drone overhead.

  • Various estimates above put the roller doors at about 8 feet wide, just enough to admit the containers (admittedly with a certain amount of paint loss).

  • Engineer48

    Very interesting statement by Andrea Rossi on his blog as attached.
    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=105#comment-1178863

    .

    • Ged

      I’m going to copy and paste it, just in case it gets edited later, so we have this snapshot of it saved:

      “LookMoo
      May 1, 2016 at 2:46 AM

      Dear Mr. Rossi,

      In one of your replies you briefly mentioned that IH had guided tours with potential customers during the one year test of the 1 MW plant.

      Can you tell us a little bit more about these happenings??

      Like:

      * How many guided tours
      * When was the last guided tour by IH.”

      ” Andrea Rossi
      May 1, 2016 at 7:52 AM

      LookMoo:

      We have the movies of them, because the plant had cameras for security
      issues, and photos, but all this information cannot be published before
      it is disclosed in Court.

      I can make this statement, though: all I said in this blog about the 1
      year test of the 1 MW E-Cat will be sustained by undisputable evidence
      in Court.

      I say this now: all the main investors that gave real money to IH before
      IH bought other IP around have repeatedly visited our plant. I can also
      add this, because it is already public: the ERV made a partial report
      every 3 months and the results were the same as in the final report.
      This means that IH received a report in April, a second report in July, a
      third report in October, before the final report. The results of all
      these report were the same, moreless. IH not only never criticized the
      reports, but shown the reports to Woodford and in an official congerence
      in China, using them to collect investments. The comments of Darden
      about the reports can be read in his interviews after the Chinese
      conference.

      So, for one year of test IH accepted with great enthusiasm the reports,
      used them to get enormous investments from funds and never made a single
      communication to the ERV, who sent to them all the preliminar reports,
      not a single word in negative.

      The situation changed as soon as payment time came.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.”

      • Engineer48

        Just save my screenshot image. Has all the time stamps.

        Should add nckhawk said he considered the contract with Rossi as finalised. IE they paid him $11.5m for the IP and in effect did not see why they should pay him another $89m as they already had the IP.

        • Ged

          Oh sorry, Disqus doesn’t show there’s an image until the entire page is refreshed.

        • keeping good relation with the inventor is more important than saving 89Mn$…

          My bet is that they have no IP, at least on what is important, Ecat-X, Quark, SSM, and say that it is in the contract (all technology, including improvement)…

          that is the most rational disagreement.

          It would be stupid to lose the good relations with someone like Rossi, if he have what he claims, and if he transfered already all the valuable IP (E-cat-X/SSM), and can generate new improvements …

          capitalism is not about screwing people, it is about taking and controling risk.
          and losing good relation and trust of someone so creative is beyond stupidity.

          If I was Woodford fund, and IH have done that, I would sue them for incompetence.

          but Darden is an experienced investor, and any VC know that the people are more important than their initial idea.
          It is a well know fact that VC invest in people, in personalities, in talents, not in business model (they are all wrong, and startup pivot regularly ).

          Now, who can be irrational in that affair? 8)
          someone who suffered the same “problems” already 2 times.

          • Engineer48

            Alain,

            IH built the 2 x 1MW reactors that did the 1 year trial. As it did SSM, they know how to make SSM happen. SSM is not something Rossi could add on in secret. It had to be designed and built into the reactor’s control circuits for it to happen.

            So because SSM happened, IH had all the IP necessary to make it happen.

          • SSM is a software.
            load is a powder.

            notice that in Lugano it is Rossi who provided the powder.
            They did not use SSM.

            Note that old SSM much improved during the test according to Rossi, leading to COP 50

            I just say something else is possible, and could explain what otherwise seems absurd and suicidal.

            What I say is that if I have an inventor that have COP50 and direct electricity production, and if I have all his know how, I start to build factories, and I buy him a yacht with a lab inside with bimbo to motivate his research efforts.

            I don’t run with V0.9 of the revolution, letting my crazy inventor build better technology for strangers.

            If Darden did what some says, I will call him stupid, not evil.

          • Bob

            I still find it interesting how so many people on this list are so quick to make accusations against Darden and the only “evidence” they have is what Rossi either “says” or what he put in his lawsuit! They completely ignore (or most likely have not done ANY research) the history and reputation Tom Darden has!
            .
            If you are basing everything on “Rossi says” versus “Tom Darden does not post daily onto some blog” therefore he is guilty and evil, one is going to be disappointed!.
            .
            I have no allegiance to IHDarden. I only know what I have read from various sources that portray Darden as a VERY good and ethical business person that has no real blemishes on his record at all. He is well regarded in his dealings, his methods and his intelligence as far as I have been able to read.
            .
            I have followed the Rossi saga for 5 years. I hope he has what he says…. but he has said MUCH over 5 years and yet I still have seen little to no proof of anything.
            .
            If I research the history of Darden, I cannot simply judge him evil and crooked based upon Rossi says. He has build a very successful business and one does not do that being stupid. His reputation does count more for me at this time that what some vague Rossi post does.
            .
            David French, the respected patent attorney, recently published that IH will NOT be able to sue Rossi for libel or defamation over what he submits to the court in his lawsuit. Some state here that because Rossi submitted it to court, it MUST be true! No it does not!. That is what the court will decide. It MAY be completely true, it MAY be completely false or most likely it MAY fall somewhere in between.
            .
            Why is it that so many jump to paint IH / Darden the bad guys here based upon these non-confirmed hypotheses and non-facts? I could start posting about Rossi being a felon, that he blew up and kicked the Navy out when they pointed out his test was not valid, that when given the chance to have Ed Storms validate his eCat, he walked out and the repetitive secret customers that never reveal themselves and so on. I could paint a very stark picture of his actions just as people are painting IH and Darden. If I did that, many here would cry FOUL, yet it would be no different than what they are doing too Darden.
            .
            We do not know who built the Lugano reactors.. there is much speculation but we do not know. We do not know if they supplied the fuel, the electronics, etc. We do not have any real facts yet..
            .
            If I have learned anything the past 5 years of watching this soap opera, it is that I always prepare myself to be disappointed when it comes to Rossi. Certifications are not what is expected. Customers are always secret. Tests are never truly independent . “ERV’s” are not agencies but a loan consultant. “Robotized” factories are often espoused but never produce. It does not mean Rossi is a fraud… it does mean that he simply does not deliver as many expect.
            .
            Based upon history, I expect that this case will settle out of court before IH even publishes their response. With everything Rossi, it will be hidden by negotiated NDA. We will not know if Rossi dropped the suit or if he got paid. In either case, he will continue with his blog and many here will trumpet that this PROVES Rossi was the winner. IH could care less what those very few of us on this blog think or hear. All they care about is the business transaction and monetary judgement. So in either situation, those on this blog wanting the truth will be disappointed and those who fully believe every “Rossi says” will be confident that he is vindicated.
            .
            Or I could be wrong! Time will tell.

          • Ged

            Put another way, we really need IH’s published defense.

          • US_Citizen71

            One of the secret customers was IH/Darden. The first attempt at production was put on hold to take on the IH/Darden dog and pony show as a partner. Much of the secrecy over the last 5 years was due to NDAs and the contract signed with IH/Darden. Go back and match the dates up from the contract against what Rossi said and you will see a different view.

          • Bob

            Ok, I will bite..
            How do you know all the delays were due to IH/Darden? Rossi says?
            Can you provide any confirmation other than that? As far as I know, the delays were due to the fact that Rossi could not get the eCat to be stable enough, that he did not have control. That IH was not going to produce a plant that was not reliable or that took a person living inside the container to keep it running! This has just as much evidence support as IH dragging their feet.
            .
            Rossi stated that he sold 2 units, then 13, but the customers and those units have been lost in the fog of memory to most. Why is Rossi not held accountable to those? When IH was presented as a CUSTOMER by Rossi, they turned out to be a partner. They are the same as Hdyrofusion, Prometeon and Mr. Green in Austrialia. They were NOT customers. EVERYONE on the blog originally thought for almost 2 years that the customer was using the plants in production! Disappointment and Rossi did nothing to stop that line of thinking! They were not a production company. No they were a partner, not an end user type customer. Even with the 1 year test “customer”, everyone thought it was a production facility and that “the accountant” would prove the eCat when comparing the old utility bills with the new! Disappointment again! No existing production customer and it is quite questionable if any production was done at all. We have no proof of any! Rossi again, let people believe it was an established facility that side by side comparisons could be made.
            .
            I state that Rossi is the one that requires the NDA’s, not the customer! Please prove otherwise, (other than Rossi says). If you read the accounts of anyone dealing with him, HE is the one requiring the NDA’s. Look at what Rossi himself states… Due to NDA, I cannot… but he never explicitly states WHOSE NDA it is. He is not lying about it, he just does not paint the entire picture! I am POSITIVE that there are a rather large number of potential customers that would JUMP at the chance for the free publicity and reputation of being the first to usher in a new generation of clean energy. Yet, for some reason, they are never selected. Rossi himself stated there was literally hundreds of commercial customers lined up to purchase eCats. HE SHOULD / COULD have picked one of them but HE did not WANT to. The NDA’s are his! (By the way, IH has not even been in the picture for 5 years, so we should keep our facts up to date.)
            .
            I do not even know if the contract is the same one that IH signed! I am not saying that it is not, I am simply saying that I do not know. There easily could be amendments, attachments, rewrites, who knows what we have not seen. IH made a press release stating “do not believe anything unless it comes from us”. Why does that not have any weight? Because they do not post daily? Rossi calls everyone one snakes and puppets! We are just to automatically believe EVERY word he says or does not say? I look at the history of both and Darden clearly has a much more respected track record than Rossi. This does not make Rossi wrong…. but it certainly should give one pause to accuse Darden with no confirmed evidence.
            .
            One thing I will stick my neck out on and say is this :
            Darden is no fool. He is not stupid. He has experienced and qualified advisors. There are those posting here that are trying to make Darden as a novice rookie with no experience in contracts, big projects or big money. That Darden is some type of small time crook, just off the street! They have even belittled the Woodford group. Those who think as such are seriously mistaken! Regardless who is morally “Right” or “Wrong”, do not even begin to think someone of Darden’s caliber is so easily trapped as many here post!

          • Bob wrote: “Why is it that so many jump to paint IH / Darden the bad guys here based upon these non-confirmed hypotheses and non-facts?”

            Ok Bob, maybe these will be enough to get your BS meter working:

            FACT: IH filed an ecat patent with Rossi as an inventor that claims a COP of 11. How do you make a patent claim of COP 11 (years ago) when you haven’t ever (supposedly) substantiated that there is ANY excess heat?

            FACT: IH let the 1MW test go ahead. How do you let a massively long PERFORMANCE/RELIABILITY test go ahead when you haven’t ever (supposedly) substantiated that there is ANY excess heat?

            FACT: IH never once said anywhere publicly (that I’ve seen) in the past 3 years that there were any problems with Rossi or ecat technology – until Rossi sued them that is. In fact they said basically “things were looking promising” publicly at least twice iirc in the past year or so. So if you are IH how do you let Rossi prattle on and on on the JoNP about how good the test is going without countering his remarks when you haven’t ever (supposedly) substantiated that there is ANY excess heat?

            FACT: IH registered several domain names that look like they would be suitable for marketing Ecat X – with light related terms. Why would you do that when you haven’t ever (supposedly) substantiated that there is ANY excess heat or light? see https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2911-New-LENR-Company-Lux-Energy-%E2%80%94-An-Industrial-Heat-Affiliate/?postID=15662#post15662.

            “For completion sake, those are the domains bought by Cherokee recently:

            luxenergy.co 2016-02-20
            lightpower.us 2016-01-27
            lightenergy.info 2016-01-27
            lightpower.biz 2016-01-27′
            luxenergyltd.com 2016-02-20
            luxenergy.us 2016-02-20
            lightenergy.biz 2016-01-27

            Looks like they thought of light energy back in last January, and then some marketing genius came up with Lux Energy late February.”

            FACT: IH manufactured the fuel and reactor for the Lugano test and claimed the test provided “promising”. Why would you do that when you haven’t ever (supposedly) substantiated that there is ANY excess heat.

            Altogether, that’s easily enough to trip my meter. I see Rossi as basically having told the truth these past few years. He wasn’t always right in his predictions and his plans changed here and there but I think the things he’s said over the years have basically come to pass. I can’t verify that Rossi really has what he claims using what is publicly verifiable, but the circumstantial evidence I’ve seen puts it at better than 50% likely.

            I very eagerly await IH’s explanations and their evidence showing how Rossi is wrong about his many claims in the lawsuit. The burden appears to be on them to explain the major inconsistencies with what they said and did before and what they are claiming now.

          • Owen Geiger

            Yes indeed. Good summary. The opposition has a lot of catching up to do.

          • Bob

            Again, I will bite… 🙂
            IH filed a patent years ago. So? It had Rossi on it. Rossi “years ago” seemed to be fine with it. Rossi “years ago” stated himself that he was IH’s Chief Scientist, an employee of IH. Years ago, IH made a public release stating they purchased the IP. Rossi did not dispute it then! So as far as the patent goes, it seems perfectly correct that IH filed it. As far as the COP 11. Companies build patent content. At the time, they probably took Rossi’s word. He WAS their employee at the time, per Rossi’s own admission. What FACT is here?
            .
            So IH let the test run. This is potentially the biggest game of the century. Perhaps they wanted to be 100% sure there was or was not a working device. I do not even have any proof that IH was paying for the test, Rossi arranged it all. Other than Rossi says, we have no proof that IH paid a penny for this test! No FACT is here.
            .
            IH never publishes anything. They are professional. Rossi never published anything was wrong either, until February 2016. So this point is meaningless. Rossi posted in November of 2015 that everything was hunky dory! So does this mean Rossi is wrong? Again, because IH does not “air the dirty laundry” means nothing. This FACT means nothing.
            .
            IH has said they are working with several Cold Fusion researchers. So they created Domain Names. They can just as well be for other products. Where are your FACTS that each domain was ONLY for the eCAT? Darden IS hoping that LENR is real, it is yet to be seen if the eCat is that reality. Cravens, Brillioun, and Miles are all LENR researchers working for IH. The domains could be for them. (Note, that they respected scientist have not published how evil Darden is!) Again this FACT means what?
            .
            It is not a FACT that IH manufactured the fuel. Actually the FACT is that the report stated Rossi would let no one handle the fuel but himself. Not even Fabiani (SP) is allowed to handle it. This is an entirely misquoted FACT. We do not know who made the fuel.
            .
            I too eagerly await IH’s response, but I doubt we will see it. Rossi will likely settle out of court with a lot of NDA’s per his requirements to drop the suit. (This is my OPINION not Fact)
            .
            So the facts are that we have almost none.

          • Bob wrote: “At the time, they probably took Rossi’s word.”

            that’s an absurd statement imo. If that is really the case then they are complete incompetents.

            “IH never publishes anything.”

            wrong, There have been IH press releases. And Darden gave published interviews and spoke at ICCF19 which was published on every LENR media outlet.

            “Where are your FACTS that each domain was ONLY for the eCAT?”

            well, the only other light producing LENR like product in development that I’ve heard about is BLP’s.

            @anyone here, Is there any evidence that IH invested in them? we know about their other company investments by IH. we should have heard about a BLP investment by IH if it happened.

            ” We do not know who made the fuel.”

            OK maybe people here are wrong about IH making the fuel.

            @anybody else, is there any “non-Rossi-says” evidence that IH made the Lugano fuel?

          • Engineer48

            Did not use SSM?

            As I understand SSM, folding part of the excess heat back to drive the reaction (reducing electrical energy input) is how high COP is achieved. Too little thermal foldback and it dies away as electrical drive then increases. Too much thermal feedback and it melts.

            Needs real time active control system to keep the thermal foldback % in the sustainable range. As the control system improves it’s ability to manager / regulate the thermal foldback, the system can push to higher levels levels of thermal foldback (reducing electrical drive) and achieve higher and higher COP.

            At some point the need for electrical input to create heat is eliminated, then the question is how long can totally self sustaining thermal feedback be maintained?

            Ideally should only need a small amount of electrical energy to generate trigger heat and from then on the reactor works from thermal foldback heat 24/7 in SSM.

        • DrD

          That’s incredible. Could they really be so naive as to sign a contract with a final payout of $89m believing it was optional?

          • Engineer48

            The payment of the $11.5m gave them all the IP they needed.

            If I was Rossi, the final $89m would have been in escrow as a part of the requirement of the IP transfer. But as it was not in escrow, well IH may have decided to see if they could get out of the payment.

          • DrD

            Yes, appreciated. So in part it depends how the contract wording stands up in court.
            The other thing that might be ambiguous is to what extent AR is required to grant them “improvements” in the IP. The new quark could well be viewed as just an improvement.

          • Engineer48

            IH not making the final payment would seem to put them in default and as such the “Default” conditions of the contract take over.

            As I read the Default, IH has all rights terminated and they can’t engage in any LENR related business.

            BTW the contract also has “Non Compete” conditions which would seem to have the effect of stopping IH engaging in any LENR related business activites with any competitor of Leonardo. So any investment in another LENR entity or passing Leonardo shared IP would also trigger a default.

    • Bruce__H

      Rossi’s English has certainly improved.
      I predict it will degenerate again when he finds it convenient.

  • SG

    Okay, cool then. I just tire of the “stupidities” that I see surrounding LENR, and whoever proposed this originally (can’t remember if it was you) did not present it as if it were a joke. But I agree, it is jokeworthy.

  • Engineer48

    NCkhawk,

    Simple question.

    Did IH have people they paid do the install, commissioning and ride out the 1 year test?

    Not interested if they were “Trusted” by IH or not. Just if they were paid by IH or an associated entity for their time spent doing the 1MW plant install, commission, customer integration and ride out?

  • Engineer48

    A few simple question.

    1) Did IH have people they paid do the install, commissioning and ride out the 1 year test?

    2) Not interested if they were “Trusted” by IH or not. Just if they were paid by IH or any associated entity for their time spent doing the 1MW plant install, commission, customer integration and 1 year ride out?

    3) What makes an IH employee “Trusted” or “UnTrusted”?

    4) How many “Trusted” and “UnTrusted” people do IH pay for their services?

  • jbundrar

    I think that Andrea Rossi is one complex genius and will continue to pray for him daily.

    • TomR

      Thank you jbundrar, I do also. If you and I do I think many other people are also.

  • jbundrar

    I think that Andrea Rossi is one complex genius and will continue to pray for him daily.

    • TomR

      Thank you jbundrar, I do also. If you and I do I think many other people are also.

  • R101

    Gee whiz, the photo’s of “the customer”‘s premises do not inspire confidence within me. What was it providing heat for in there? A meth factory? I’m also losing patience with Rossi, I’ve been following this for over five years now and just when we think we’re closer to seeing something, there always seems to be another hurdle or something that throws a spanner in the works.

    If it wasn’t for the work of ME365, MFMP and the other duplicators, I’d really start to think the E-Cat was a sham.

    For the love of ‘insert your favourite deity’, ENG.Rossi please
    just release one damn thing before developing another. At this rate, I’ll
    be dead before I can even see one, let alone use it.

    • Owen Geiger

      A scum partner not paying Rossi the $89 million owed will obviously slow things down a bit. Not surprising. I believe he will prevail despite what trolls say.

  • R101

    Gee whiz, the photo’s of “the customer”‘s premises do not inspire confidence within me. What was it providing heat for in there? A meth factory? I’m also losing patience with Rossi, I’ve been following this for over five years now and just when we think we’re closer to seeing something, there always seems to be another hurdle or something that throws a spanner in the works.

    If it wasn’t for the work of ME365, MFMP and the other duplicators, I’d really start to think the E-Cat was a sham.

    For the love of ‘insert your favourite deity’, ENG.Rossi please
    just release one damn thing before developing another. At this rate, I’ll
    be dead before I can even see one, let alone use it.

    • Owen Geiger

      A scum partner not paying Rossi the $89 million owed will obviously slow things down a bit. Not surprising. I believe he will prevail despite what trolls say.

  • DrD

    In a closed system entropy always increases (or no change). Highest “quality” (eg temperature, order) = lowest entropy. You would therefore desire to store it without INCREASED entropy. Nevertheless, as long as you can store it endothermically it’s a secondary issue whether or not it is stored without increased entropy or not. THe point being that any endothermc reaction will reomove “heat” from the steam and that heat would not then need to be dumped by radiators, Aircon or the like.

    • Engineer48

      Correct.

  • Omega Z

    All the fuss about 1MWh of heat in a 6000 square foot facility with a 20 foot ceiling.

    (phtttt) This is nothing. A portion of that heat will be consumed in the work process. Heat dissipates at an excellerated rate with distance from the source. All the while, you have over a 120K cubic foot of air space and a 130,000 square foot of surface area for the heat to dissipate to the outer environment.

    Heat is like a living thing that has 1 goal in life. To equalize in all directions through every nook and cranny and every barrier we put in it’s path. If not, we could sit within an inch of molten steel and not get burned.

    • LuFong

      You make a good point but do you see a flue from the 4x250K 1MW plant venting to the outside? The best steam boiler is only about 85% efficient which means at least 150kWh/h of heat escapes and would have to be vented from the plant, from the shipping container, into the warehouse space. If not it will definitely get hot inside the shipping container. Can you find any such venting?

      • Omega Z

        The original low temp e-cat reactors were embedded directly into the water flow pipe and insulated. If this is still the case, there would be little heat loss in the container. It would obviously still get warm in the container, but not what one would expect. Just leave a door open on the container.

        The purpose of my post was for those concerned who have no real world experience to guide them. To counter the few who would have you believe this would burn the paint off the walls, melt the building to the ground and cook any who dare go in.(FUD)

        I’ve worked in a facilty that produced much greater quantities of heat and they weren’t allowed to actively expell the heat nor any roof ventilation. It was totally dependent on passive heat dissipation. No People were cooked although in July & August we lost a couple to heat exhaustion on occasion. They were back to work the next day.

        Correction: 1 was cooked medium rare when a furnace blew up. I spent 11 days in an isolation unit while my skin grew back so I know a little about heat.

        • LuFong

          The key is how efficient is the transfer of heat? I used 85% but I could be wrong. It would be nice to know what that number is. I’m not convinced that the efficiency is significantly higher than 85% but I don’t really know. Maybe the ERV report will shed some light on this.

    • JDM

      Extra heat removal could also be accomplished by one-pass city water to the drain.

    • Bruce__H

      I’m trying to understand your calculations here.

      Assuming a 600 square meter room (the area of the room next door to the ECAT facility according to Mats Lewan) with a 6 metre ceiling I calculate that a 1 MW heat source will heat the air in the room by about 0.25 degrees C per second (i.e., 15 degrees C per minute). So after 2 minutes the room would go from 20 degrees up to 50 degrees and this would then continue to climb as the heat continues to be dumped into the room. After 3 minutes the temperature of the room would be 65 degrees C which is hotter than the average inlet temperature of the ECAT. So some heat dissipation is definitely in order.

      If the heat dissipation is to be mainly passive then it is through absorption and re-radiation to the outside. At steady state this has to take care of most of the 1 MW of heat. The roof is 600 square meters and let’s say it takes 1/3 of the load which means that the heat flux needs to be about 0.33 x 10^6 W / 600 m^2 = 550 W/m^2. Concrete has a thermal conductivity of about 1 W / m degree so the temperature gradient needed to sustain this flux (Fourier’s law) is 550 degrees C / m. If the ceiling is a concrete slab about 10 cm this this means that the internal temperature of the room has to be 55 degrees C above the ambient outside temperature of let’s say 20 degrees C. That means that the room temperature needs to be 75 degrees C. Once again this is above the inlet temperature of the ECAT so it can’t be right. Also it would mean that the walls would be burning hot and I expect that the neighbours might complain.

      You seem to get different results. Can you tell me where your calculations differ from mine?

  • Omega Z

    All the fuss about 1MWh of heat in a 6000 square foot facility with a 20 foot ceiling.

    (phtttt) This is nothing. A portion of that heat will be consumed in the work process. Heat dissipates at an excellerated rate with distance from the source. All the while, you have over a 120K cubic foot of air space and a 130,000 square foot of surface area for the heat to dissipate to the outer environment.

    Heat is like a living thing that has 1 goal in life. To equalize in all directions through every nook and cranny and every barrier we put in it’s path. If not, we could sit within an inch of molten steel and not get burned.

    • JDM

      Extra heat removal could also be accomplished by one-pass city water to the drain.

    • Bruce__H

      I’m trying to understand your calculations here.

      Assuming a 600 square meter room (the area of the room next door to the ECAT facility according to Mats Lewan) with a 6 metre ceiling I calculate that a 1 MW heat source will heat the air in the room by about 0.25 degrees C per second (i.e., 15 degrees C per minute). So after 2 minutes the room would go from 20 degrees up to 50 degrees and this would then continue to climb as the heat continues to be dumped into the room. After 3 minutes the temperature of the room would be 65 degrees C which is hotter than the average inlet temperature of the ECAT. So some heat dissipation is definitely in order.

      If the heat dissipation is to be mainly passive then it is through absorption and re-radiation to the outside. At steady state this has to take care of most of the 1 MW of heat. The roof is 600 square meters and let’s say it takes 1/3 of the load which means that the heat flux needs to be about 0.33 x 10^6 W / 600 m^2 = 550 W/m^2. Concrete has a thermal conductivity of about 1 W / m degree so the temperature gradient needed to sustain this flux (Fourier’s law) is 550 degrees C / m. If the ceiling is a concrete slab about 10 cm this this means that the internal temperature of the room has to be 55 degrees C above the ambient outside temperature of let’s say 20 degrees C. That means that the room temperature needs to be 75 degrees C. Once again this is above the inlet temperature of the ECAT so it can’t be right. Also it would mean that the walls would be burning hot and I expect that the neighbours might complain.

      You seem to get different results. Can you tell me where your calculations differ from mine?

  • Owen Geiger

    Yes indeed. Good summary. The opposition has a lot of catching up to do.

  • frank

    Does anyone have a clue on where Rossi is currently developing his Quark-X and prepares the mass production? He claimed once he has 33 employees and many other personnel in standby (!?) waiting to setup a mass production line including worldwide sales and service…. Launching such a game changer technology won’t work with this little team so he must have at least one bigger partner that is doing business on a worldwide base and use their distribution channels. I found it also interesting to learn that he was able to design and develop his Quark-X while being under supervision (?) of IH or at least the cameras all day long at the warehouse. Hard to imagine that he had all the ressources, time, engineers (?) etc. to perform such epochal R&D work while babysitting his – sorry – IH’s 1MW plant.

    His current company / R&D location must have offices, labs, workshops…a good number of people here in this thread did a great job in unveiling the 1-year test location so maybe there is another chance to trace his current activities? He says he is playing tennis every weekend with his wife? Probably nearby where he lives / works…?

  • interstellar hobo

    40 and 20 foot non-hicube shipping containers are exactly 8 foot wide by 8 foot tall. Can one even have fit through the loading dock doors? I’ve worked in warehouses with loading docks plenty of times. never saw a shipping container brought inside. I’m not saying its not possible but I know it’s at best a very tight squeeze on standard loading dock doors, and I’m not entirely sure its possible.

    • Ged

      Earlier in the thread, several different people used the images to measure the dimensions of the doors. The containers would fit through ok, but I’m sure it would be an interesting challenge to accomplish.

  • builditnow

    Photo’s of two containers parked out the back of JM Products, “maybe”, to be verified as the correct address and office space.
    These photos come from google street view dated Feb 2014. These photo’s are currently up on Google. Feb 2014 could be too early a date, or, earlier testing?
    The Google satellite photo is of unknown date, shows the containers out the back, Google indicate 2016.

    The last photo is of the business name that “seems” to identify the space where the containers are parked.

    Also, look closely at the junk around the bottom of these containers, they have been parked there for a while. I’d be cautious about trusting Google’s “image capture” date as being accurate.
    This would need further research to be identified as related to JM Products.
    If it’s the right place, other satellite companies can be a source of images, one takes daily photo’s at lower resolution.
    What do you think?

    • builditnow

      The containers are behind a different section of the building, I was able to identify using the logo of the company next door 2otran (or something like that) that JM Products occupies the 3rd office entrance, from the right of the building, as viewed from the front of the building. The containers are parked out the back between the 1st and 2nd office entrance from the right of the building as view from the front. I suppose it possible that JM Products is a miss-direction and the actual production is where the containers are parked. Are they still there? Anyone close by?

      • Engineer48

        JM is at 7861, which is the 3rd unit from the Northern end of the building or 3rd unit from the left, looking from the front/street view.

  • Ged

    Earlier in the thread, several different people used the images to measure the dimensions of the doors. The containers would fit through ok, but I’m sure it would be an interesting challenge to accomplish.