How to Avoid a 1989 Cold Fusion Repeat in 2016

The rise and fall of cold fusion after Pons and Fleischmann introduced it to the world in 1989 has been discussed at length over the years and the details don’t need to be rehearsed here. It was a dramatic process that played out on the world stage which resulted in the lasting impact of driving LENR research underground for decades.

There was great hope and excitement when the news was first broadcast around the world by the at-first enthusiastic media — but within months the excitement turned to dismay and then largely to disgust as influential figures repeatedly trashed Pons and Fleischmann’s work and the two formerly respected scientists were effectively excommunicated from the scientific community.

Anticipation was high after the conclusion of the the 1MW E-Cat plant test — many watchers were hoping for a conclusive report being published and the beginning of a new age of acceptance of cold fusion as a miraculous new energy source. However for many people the news of Andrea Rossi’s lawsuit against Industrial Heat had the effect of throwing a cold wet blanket in their faces, and being left to wonder about what is happening.

Are we experiencing a repeat of 1989? The LENR field had showed signs of emerging from its years in the wilderness, with more people taking it seriously — but with the E-Cat now being called into question, is LENR about be be driven into the deep underground again?

Personally, I don’t think this has to happen. But to avoid this fate some things need to happen. Here are some things that I think could keep the field from drifting again into obscurity (in no particular order)

1. A recipe and instructions for achieving an obvious LENR reaction is released publicly, and people are able to replicate it consistently.

2. A company releasing a LENR product to the market that can be bought and used, demonstrating that LENR is an obviously real effect.

3. Government or university labs publishing reports in prestigious peer-reviewed publications that LENR is a real phenomenon that has the potential to be a practical source of energy.

4. The Fabio Penon report being released, showing clearly that the E-Cat plant was able to run at a very high COP for year.

5. Andrea Rossi demonstrating an E-Cat reactor clearly running in a controlled self-sustain mode at a high COP in a public and convincing way.

6. An E-Cat customer coming forward publicly and confirming that the plant saved them a lot of money in energy costs.

7. A large and well-funded company announcing they are developing LENR products.

There are probably many more things that could happen that would kindle more interest in the field. The point is that in order to get the attention that field needs in order to grow and flourish, public credibility needs to be built.

There will always be interest among some of us in LENR. I believe that there are thousands of people already around the world who are convinced it is a superior energy technology. However, at the moment we are a tiny minority of thinkers, seen by the mainstream as fringe players who are probably out of touch with reality, and therefore easy to be dismissed. In order for LENR to emerge from the fringes something will have to change.

  • Bruce__H

    I completely agree with 1 and 3 and think all the rest of the requirements on your list are good too.

    My take is that LENR at high COP is probably a figment of people’s imagination but that there may be something to the more modest results people are reporting. People on this forum should think about how much damage Rossi could do to the whole field if and when he turns out to have nothing. It is particularly dangerous to talk him up and revere him in the way we see here. The raised expectations I see surrounding Rossi reminds me of the fevered aura around Pons and Fleischmann and look at what that did to the field.

    People have to learn how to value thorough incremental research (such as the work of the MFMP or work on hot fusion). Slow and steady wins the race.

    • Warthog

      Given the huge number of “thermal runaways” seen by pretty much all LENR researchers (including Pons and Fleischmann), “high COP” is almost certainly NOT a “figment of people’s imagination”.

      High COP with good control OTOH, appears to be quite difficult.

      • Private Citizen

        Will accept a repeatable recipe for “thermal runaway.” Care to cite one?

        • Zephir

          Actually most of first Fleischman-Pons attempts for cold fusion ended just with thermal runaway. The whole secret here is the sufficient saturation of palladium with deuterium – it may take weeks or months. The problem was, the ability of palladium to catalyze cold fusion ended by these events in most cases, so that many thermal runaways were actually silent, unnoticed and counted into “failures”.

    • Chapman

      I find it interesting how you can appear to be encouraging and supportive of the LENR field in general, while casually dropping little Rossi hate-bombs in the middle of your thoughts.

      You might want to stop and think about the fact that MFMP (who I happen to love and revere), and all the other replicators and labs out there are merely sniffing down Rossi’s trail of breadcrumbs. The researchers doing novel and decidedly NON-Rossi research are dead-ends barely able to initiate any kind of basic reaction TO study, like the failed Brillion (who only seems to have achieved ANYTHING after bailing on their previous research and began cloning/stealing Rossi’s E-Cat tech).

      It seems to me to be an incredibly self-contradictory approach to strongly imply Rossi has nothing, and is a fraud, and a danger to the future of LENR research itself, while placing your hopes for the future of humanity upon the shoulders of those who are simply trying to catch up to Rossi and repeat what he has already done.

      You are, in essence, saying “Columbus is a fool! Do not give him ships! The world is flat! He is a liar and a con artist. There is no other continent… and when WE get to AMERICA we will PROVE IT!!!”

      Sorry friend, but the argument is more than slightly on the moronic end of the intellectual scale.

      Also, in real life the Slow and Steady get left behind, and the tortious usually winds up in the soup kettle. I prefer to seek guidance from the mature wisdom and insights of those who have succeeded where I have only dreamed, rather than set my course according to catchphrases remembered from silly fables from my youth. They are just silly stories meant for silly minds.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Good article Frank. I would just add one more to your list. We need more impartial individual reporters like Mats Lewan interested in the LENR story who are connected to major news outlets. It is my opinion this is something this group could change, contacting local reporters, making them aware of the very interesting LENR story. Just like any organization good ideas, in this case ideas for a good story, come from the grunts in the field.

      • Warthog

        LOL, the standard refrain of the pathological skeptic.

        It is sort of hard to mistake a hole burned through a Transite lab bench top and into a concrete floor. Easy to replicate….no. Easy to mistake…..also no.

        I suggest that you folks stop the propaganda war that has totally denied research funding into LENR and allow such studies to actually be funded and done (you know, that stuff called “thorough incremental research”), as recommended in both DOE reviews. For some reason, no such funding has ever appeared. I wonder if the preponderance of physics majors in the management of government funding agencies might have something to do with that.

        And then there are the “dog in the manger” tactics such as than perpetrated by the MIT physics department when Peter Hagelstein convinced a private firm to donate a mere $90K for experimental work in LENR. The physics boys called the manager and got that huge grant blocked.

        And things like the attempted academic crucifixion of John Bockris for daring to report a positive cold fusion result.

        And on and on and on it goes.

        • Private Citizen

          Warthog: It is sort of hard to mistake a hole burned through a Transite lab bench top and into a concrete floor.

          That is definitely the kind of thing you would photograph and disperse widely, no? Links? I’ve not seen any photos but have heard the stores too. Not trying to be a contrarian, i’d love to see the photos and be put in place.

          Or only stories and no photos to keep that allure of the meltdown maybe not happening?

          • DocSiders

            Hagelstein didn’t have the COP to pull off an isolated, totally off the grid self sustaining system. Rossi claims that he does, so let’s see it already.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Not necessary. The NANOR’s he had have very high COP, just small power output.

          • Warthog

            At the time, P & F were holding all data confidential, as this happened before their public comments. And I’m sure their own take at the time was the same as yours…”anecdotal data”, and that they should wait for their more detailed quantitative results.

            What we know with certainty is that multiple eyewitnesses saw the results. I too have wondered if there might have been photos, or even undeveloped film stashed away in some file cabinet at U. of Utah.

          • Zavod

            Ultimately, it is up to the individual observer to remain reasonably skeptical of grandiose claims made by people who fail time and again to deliver. Rossi is one such person.

          • Zephir

            /* I think you are saying that publicly funded researchers stick to what is mainstream and ignore alternatives …. as a publicly funded researcher, that this is only partly true */

            It works quite reliably at the case of research of cold fusion, room temperature superconductivity, antigravity, overunity and negentropic phenomena, scalar waves, water clusters, psychic phenomena and many similar stuffs. You can find their research nowhere in peer-reviewed journals and the findings published in the rest are never attempted to replicate.

    • kdk

      The various thermal runaways prove LENR beyond any doubt, and also its potential. It’s only a matter of finding the proper environmental variables which lead to the runaways.

  • Gerard McEk

    Frank, thank you for continuously thinking for new discussion issues to keep the LENR /Cold Fusion spirit a live, also when not much interesting news is coming up.
    Yes, I do believe that it is very possible that the ‘existing establishment’ will fiercely combat the new LENR energy source for a multitude of (selfish) reasons. The points you are mentioning are all important, but I believe that if someone or some group (like MFMP) finds a method that shows always LENR effects then that would be a turning point for science. Obviously if Rossi manages to put a product on the market it will certainly be important too, but I assume it will receive bad (and probably falsified) testimonies of many people (from ‘radiation’ to no COP and from ‘rubbish’ to ‘this man is a fraud’, etc., etc.), making it difficult to create the real huge market , he would think to create.

    • John C Evans

      The market will be created by a successful product despite falsified testimonies. If there’s a small slow moving market at the start, I’m all for it, It’ll be easier to obtain one of the first run devices. When people around the world show their neighbors copies of the electric bills and in some cases checks from the utility the market will catch fire and soon outpace production. Then the genie will never be put back in the bottle.

  • Gerald

    Don’t forget what you are doing right now. Keep track of things happening. Back in 1989 we did not have internet for everyone, so things are more open and better archived for the future. Politics know and start acting on this, offcourse they can play the I didn’t know but that is much harder these days then 25 years ago.

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, the Internet makes a big difference between now and 1989. Still, the mainstream media is now on the Internet and has lots of influence there. If it’s not reported on some of the big news sites, many people don’t take it seriously.

    • Ted-Z

      Things can be pulled out of the internet quite effectively, too. If you watch what was just briefly mentioned and then NOT published (even if the event was significant), you would notice. For that, you have to use numerous sources and have a good memory, as some things are wiped out extremely well.

      • Such as information on the GEC GeNiE cold fusion ‘hybrid’ reactor. Even the ‘wayback machine’ has been wiped clean.

  • Sadly all data I have is that the only opponents to LENr is :
    – academic in love with theory and big physics budget
    – LENR community who is unable to work seriously, to coordinate, and to clean it’s basements of the rats.

    There is no comparison between F&P tragedy, with good calorimetry, correct ethic (some mistakes, but in trouble time), facing pathetic frauds and incompetence …
    And what we see with IH refusing to pay, damaging relationship with who pretend to make them bilionaires.

    The theory is not popular here, but my conviction is that IH is simply desperate not to be able to be a faithful licensee of Rossi, because they cannot make it work.

    I’m not sure of what Dewey and Jed claims (that the test is clownery), but I’m convinced that IH is unable to make an E-cat that works well-enough to be sold, even in a lab, at 100W scale.

    IH is losing bilions, and the theory that they just want to save 100Mn$ is laughable… if IH had enugh to build E-cat they would pay unlimited pizza, limousine, and escort girl to Rossi, just hoping he is in good mood to share more and invent more.

    I’ve always observed that strangely oil industry and globally industry have supported, like military, and Asian organizations, the research on LENR.

    No big oil conpiracy. the only conspiracy is egotic academic, hot fusion big money, and loose uncoordinated LENR community full of maverick ever battling for peanuts.

    • Stanny Demesmaker

      What’s your claim now, Alain? That the E-cat doesn’t work?

      • Ted-Z

        Somewhat out of topic, but of general relevance. Lithium 7, when bombarded with protons was identified as demonstrating a “fifth force” and some unusual elementary particles, apparently unknown in classical physics:

        QUOTE: Evidence of this fifth force was spotted last year, when a team from the Hungarian Academy of Science reported that they’d fired protons at lithium-7, and in the fall out, had detected a brand new super-light boson that was only 34 times heavier than an electron.

        As exciting as that sounds, the paper was mostly overlooked, until a team in the US published their own analysis of the data at the end of last month, on pre-print site arXiv.

        The US team, led by Jonathan Feng from the University of California, Irvine, showed that the data didn’t conflict with previous experiments, and calculated that the new boson could indeed be carrying a fifth fundamental force – which is when the science world started to get interested.

        That paper hasn’t been peer-reviewed as yet, so we can’t get too excited, but it was uploaded so that the other physicists could scrutinise the results and add their own findings, which is what’s happening now.

        As Nature magazine reports, researchers around the world are racing to conduct follow-up tests to verify the Hungarian discovery, and we can expect results within around a year.

        But if you’re anything like me, you’re probably wondering, what does a super-light boson have to do with a new force of nature?

        This isn’t the first time researchers have claimed to detect a fifth force (there’s even a Wikipedia page for fifth force possibilities), but the search has really heated up over the past decade. Many scientists think there might be a particle out there called a ‘dark photon’, which could carry a new force that would explain dark matter – that invisible substance that makes up more than 80 percent of the Universe’s mass.

        That’s what the Hungarian team, led by physicist Attila Krasznahorkay, were looking for. To do that, they fired protons at thin targets of lithium-7, a collision that created unstable beryllium-8 nuclei, which then decayed into pairs of electrons and positrons.

        “According to the standard model, physicists should see that the number of observed pairs drops as the angle separating the trajectory of the electron and positron increases,” Edwin Cartlidge writes for Nature.

        But that wasn’t what the team saw – at about 140 degrees, the number of these pairs jumped, creating a little bump before dropping off again at higher angles.

        This ‘bump’ was evidence of a new particle, according to Krasznahorkay and his team. They calculated that the mass of this new particle would be around 17 megaelectronvolts, which isn’t what was expected for the ‘dark photon’, but could be evidence of something else entirely.

        “We are very confident about our experimental results,” Krasznahorkay told Nature. He says that the chance of this bump being an anomaly is around 1 in 200 billion (but let’s keep in mind that no other team has confirmed this as yet.)

        The analysis by Feng’s team in the US didn’t involve a repeat of the experiment, but simply used calculations to verify that, theoretically at least, the proposed super-light boson Krasznahorkay detected could be capable of carrying a new fundamental force.
        This might be pointing to a potential explanation of the LENR effect (at least the lithium-related reactions).
        Perhaps some nuclear physicists from the list could comment on this.

      • Dr. Mike

        I certainly agree with Frank that all of his 7 points will enhance LENR’s acceptance in the scientific community. However, I believe that there already is a recipe for LENR replication- the issued Rossi patent on the “low-temperature” e-cat. My guess is that the replication problems of the “hot cat” are the result of Rossi withholding key information on this device that won’t become public knowledge until just before he applies for an international patent on the “hot-cat”. (This assumes that the “hot-cat” works as Rossi claims, which was not clearly demonstrated by the results of the Lugano report.)
        Everyone assumed that the Lugano reactor was empty when Rossi loaded the “fuel” into it. Perhaps the reactor was pre-loaded with some amount of Ni62? This would account for the tiny bit of “ash” that was removed at the end of the test being nearly 100% Ni62, whereas converting all of the Ni to Ni62 during the 30 day operation of the reactor can not be explained by the amount of hydrogen available in the amount of AlLiH4 that was in the loaded “fuel”. Also, there is no information in the Lugano report that claims the input to the Lugano reactor was checked by an oscilloscope. Perhaps there was an additional high frequency waveform applied to the reactor?

        • Billy Jackson

          I try my best not to get into conspiracy theories. I don’t always succeed. So i will try to limit myself here so you don’t get the ravings of conjecture based on my own biases. 🙂

          Like many of you, I have been here for years watching the story unfold. We waited nearly a year for the 1MW plant results and the culmination of the 3rd party results from that year long test. It was with shock and ice water bitterness that i opened and read that Rossi was suing IH. As I continued to read and pick up the occasional tidbits here and there.. i honestly felt like I had been kicked in the stomach. I do not think i am alone in this.

          Now time has passed and i have cooled down, letting the more analytical nature take over when passion and anger finally subsided. It leaves me with unfortunately with even more questions. But i think pertinent ones that cut to the core of the issue.

          1. If IH was unable to validate the e-cat. why did they build one without Rossi’s involvement claim a COP of 11+ .. and then file their own patent.

          2. Why wait till the final days to dispute the technology? After a year of selling its advantages to investors? what is behind the reason for this? surely its not money. as IH is more than capable of paying the amount due.

          The evidence as presented for the first causes you to be biased to the answer of the 2nd issue.

          what follows is nothing more than pure conjecture and just an opinion.

          I think Rossi 1-uped himself. i think that he gave all the information that IH needed to make the e-cat and presented them with a working product. all 3 reports from the individuals representing Leonardo, IH, and an Independent all fell close to each other in their readings.. but something else was going on behind the scenes.. the 1 MW works and its a great product.. but in his time working on the 1MW plant.. Rossi made an even better product. (the quark) one that’s not covered by a contract or is murky at best on who gets to use that product.

          No one wants to go to market with an inferior product when you have something better already close to production. Is this really about money and validity or is this a battle about the potential control of product markets for the e-cats future?

          • Gerard McEk

            Rossi has said more than once that the Hot Cat X or the mini version the QuarkX would belong to the license contract. So I do not believe that your theory is right.

          • Billy Jackson

            it very well may not be. 🙂

          • f sedei

            Your conjecture may be more accurate than you believe. A” bird in the bush” theory may be appropriate in this situation. Rossi wants the promised $89M, and he strongly believes he has the goods to back his belief. His confidence allowed him to file the law suit against IH.. Rossi must further have confidence that he surely has others (investors and countries) of considerable means who may be anxious to take up the supportive Ecat cause if the legal route fails him. I believe Andre Rossi will prevail.

      • my claim is that Rossi did not share what he have to with IH.

        that E-cat is void is only possible, but not sure at all…

        anyway all is open.

        My heart stop bleeding when I remember of others serious guy on the subject, like Brillouin, Nichenergy and lenuco.

    • US_Citizen71

      I think you may be on the right track, but I do not think that IH is unable to reproduce the effect or build working reactors. I think they are trying to get out of the deal because in the end the IP will not hold up as a patent because of prior art. It appears the core reaction is Li7 + p > 2 He4 + energy. This ‘splitting the atom’ reaction was tested to a high degree after Walton and Cockcroft discovered it. It is my belief that IH has stumbled upon prior work from soon after Walton and Cockcroft’s announcement that may kill the patent. Without a monopoly IH just isn’t interested.

      • Rossi Fan

        1. Recipe: I agree.

        2. Company: I see problems with FDA approval.

        3. Peer review: Publications and trade organizations cater to their industries. The industries do not want to see a game changer which puts them out of business.

        4. Fabio: The fact that this report involves one and only one person completely corrupts it and renders it useless.

        5. Andrea Rossi demo: He has already indicated that a) he gave away all secrets to IH/Chinese/Brillo and b) he will not demo because he is afraid of giving away secrets. As far as Rossi goes this option is off the table. There’s incognito anonymous ME262 who claims he is afraid for his safety or something to that effect. That leaves the Chinese and Russians: good luck!

        6. E-Cat customer: This is not forthcoming. Don’t hold your breath.

        7. Large company: Large companies and institutions are not very innovative. They prefer to buy out a small company once the technology is proven (which means #2).

        • Gerard McEk

          I still believe that AR should have his Ecat or QuarkX tested by e.g. MFMP. Just the COP will do, so no real secrets will need to be revealed. I am sure that the whole LENR community would support that with all means, especially in case IH wants to discredit LENR/CF as a whole (see

        • bachcole

          I know that the FDA is the scum-of-the-Earth, but what does the Food and Drug Administration have to do with LENR?

          • Rossi Fan

            Here you go:


            In a nutshell:

            The United States (U.S.) Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) Center for
            Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) is responsible for regulating
            radiation-emitting electronic products.

            You can use and produce a product that emits radiation all you want. Like IH/Leonardo did at JM. You just cannot sell a product without FDA approval.

            FDA approval for new stuff that does not exist on the market takes a long time and costs several million dollars. There is an industry built around the FDA that prepares the paperwork and does the certifications.

            Lead shielding cannot be used as an excuse to avoid this process. So don’t go there.

            From what I understand LENR needs a short blast of radiation to get things started. Even a tiny amount of radiation equivalent to a dental x-ray and Rossi is caught in FDA’s web.

          • Jouni Tuomela

            This research was done some 100 years ago, from F&P is only a quarter of that.
            “In other words we have an input energy of 103 cal/gram molecule and an output energy of 90.000 cal/gram molecule. In conventional science this seems to be violating the law of conservation of energy. Langmuir explained this (however, not very convincingly) by the heat being carried forward from the arc to the metal surface. One area which certainly deserves the attention of modern science, is the replication of Langmuirs experiments using high-tech measurement equipment.”


            Perhaps this should be researched first, is it really happening?

          • help_lenr

            Looks like you believe that USA is the only center of science and technology. There are many countries which think and work without paying too much attention to what american institutes say about quality of products, eg: Russia, China, Japan, Korea. They have their own markets to start with; after this start phase successfull products will be sold fast to countries which are not controlled by global coorporations.

            If USA will be foolish enough to stop LENR applications it will be punished hard because USA will be delayed in the race for LENR energy and may lose it’s dominance in commercial activity and weapon industry. USA was arrogant in their space programs in 1950 or so until Russia sent the Sputnik satellite, USA needed a huge effort to recover (that is why president kennedy started the FLY TO MOON program). This time a recovering effort might not be enough because the world changed and there are now strong industries outside USA.

          • Warthog

            I think you may be reading the FDA’s authority a bit too broadly. I think what they have authority over is things like x-ray or other nuclear diagnostic and medical treatment equipment (gamma knife, cancer irradiation devices).

            Devices such as Rossi’s would more likely be under the auspices of the DOE.

          • sam

            This also will keep it from drifting into
            Frank Acland
            May 26, 2016 at 8:52 AM
            Dear Andrea,

            Please forgive me for being morbid, but this is a question that any inventor I think must consider — if you were to die today, what would the fate of the E-Cat QuarkX be?

            Many thanks,

            Frank Acland

            Andrea Rossi
            May 26, 2016 at 10:18 AM
            Frank Acland:
            The problem has been duly assessed. My work would be perfectly continued without me.
            Warm Regards,

    • Alain Samoun

      “hot fusion big money”
      I will add “Uranium fission big money” Especially in France.

    • Bob

      I agree.
      No conspiracy.
      No hired shills or paid bloggers.
      Even if a company did want to squash LENR / CF, they do not need to pay people to blog. The CF community is so fragmented they are doing itself all the harm needed!
      Look at this site versus Jed Rothwell! Both are PRO LENR/CF. Many here now call Mr. Rothwell a paid thug. Crazy, Inept! He in return, uses abrasive language when describing his views on people, thus creating a message that many see as a personal attack. “After all, a personal attack or Rossi is a personal attack on me!” And all of this only on hearsay and no firm fact!
      IH has plenty of money. The theory they cannot pay the 89 million or do not “Want to pay” because they can steal the IP is silly in my opinion. Their track record nor logic supports this.
      No, the LENR community is it’s own worse enemy, including Rossi!.
      #1 is what MFMP is attempting to do. I applaud them for it and have given some monetary support. (Not a huge amount, but hopefully it adds up)
      #2 will probably NOT help as so far, we have seen NDA’s tied to everything. We have companies selling perpetual magnet motor generators now from South Africa and it has not changed anything. Of course they may or may not work. The point is that someone selling something does not prove anything. If sales become wide spread and of large quantities, then that would tend to indicated the technology is already accepted.
      #3 would again help change academia, but I personally do not think this option will happen until other events take place. Look at the British press release posted some weeks back that stated “we will wait and see…” (paraphrased) Already NASA and SPARWAR has done some research, but it apparently has not went far nor is current.
      #4 This will have absolutely NO impact what so ever. Look at Lugano. Look at any of the multitude of very good tests already done by others over the years. There is plenty of tests showing significant LENR effect from many unrelated groups. It has done nothing to change the overall view of CF. Penon already has done a test on the eCat and published the results. It changed nothing. This test will be no different in my opinion.
      #5 This will not happen. He has had 5 years to do so and has not done it. What evidence is there that this will change? His next “announced test” is with a secret customer, secret location, etc. as usual. If he did it, it might help, but it would have to be done in such a way, that I believe he would not allow the test in fear of his IP being stolen. Real or not.
      #6 This would not change anything most likely. People would then start calling the customer frauds and conspirators, just like the pathoskeps called IH / Darden until the lawsuit came up. Energy bills can be rigged or made up. A major company is unlikely to come forward and state “Yes, we are buying these and it works and here is the proof behind it” Big corporations do not work that way. Small companies would have no impact.
      #7 If GE gave formal PR statements, showed prototypes and actually constructed reactors, it might have some impact. However in the last year, we have seen press releases of Hot Fusion reactors the size of cargo containers being available by 2018. Other companies making bold claims within the next 10 years. Nobody is getting too excited about these announcements. So I am not sure what impact it would really have.
      All said then, my opinion is that #1 would have the most impact. Worldwide, completely unrelated groups could then replicate the effect. Then products would start being made and sold in a wide variety of applications by a variety of companies. Academia could prove to themselves because they will not listen to anyone else. And with competition, the products would roll out fast, furious and prices drop. It has always been that way.

      • kdk

        IMHO, the various thermal runaways from people like Szpak and P&F themselves show beyond any doubt that it’s real. There is no way to boil off a bunch of water overnight with small electrodes with limited input energy and melt through containers that doesn’t involve a revolutionary energy technology. Combined with their characters, there is no doubt that something unorthodox happened. The runaways were after the addition of magnetic fluctuations, in Szpak’s case anyway.

        Rossi only has to provide a compelling demonstration to the people he is now approaching and our opinions won’t affect the result after that. Hopefully, they are more serious than IH, and can help secure a patent so this thing doesn’t get sat on by people who potentially have trillions of dollars to lose.

    • Fulvio Fabiani disagrees with you about whether it worked or not. He was in the crate for a year and an employee of IH at the time.

      You calling him a liar?

  • sam

    Number 2 and 6 would work.

  • Bob K

    I still have a hard time believing that Fulvio Fabiani was lying in that interview.

    • Me too. I have been talking to him again, and that has strengthened my impression.

      • pg

        What did he tell you?

        • He didn’t tell me many new things, and what he told me I cannot report yet. However, there’s nothing in what he says that changes what he told me in the interview. He’s not backing off.
          He is not working for Rossi, neither for IH. As far as I understand he will not work for any of them in the near future.

          • For reference for passers-by:

            The Lugano ash limited possibilities to E-Cat nuclear or Rossi fraud.

            Similarly this interview (and now subsequent confirmation!) can not be reasonably interpreted any way except E-Cat works or Fabiani fraud.

            The pending ERV report, if it truly shows COP ~50 as we’re led to believe by legal documents filed by Rossi, would also limit reasonable possibilities to E-Cat works or Penon fraud.

          • Can you elaborate on the “yet?” Things that can’t come out until the trial starts? Some other criteria?

          • Don’t know, but not any time soon at least. And I repeat, he didn’t add much since he is still bound by NDAs.

          • OK, so a keep it to yourself until he says otherwise. Thanks.

          • Curious… did this come up at any time with FF: “Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.”

            So far all we have is Rossi’s word to you about that… that I know of. Any chance FF has corroborated that (ever)?

          • Nope.

          • Thanks (and bummer). One last meta question if you’re game. As a reporter and someone privy to inside information that you can’t disclose for various reasons (such as these new tidbits from FF),,,

            Do you find that non-public information you have bolsters the case for the E-Cat working or damages it? Scale of -100 (destroys it) to +100 (proves it).

          • 😉 Don’t like numbers for statistics that you cannot calculate.
            However, talking to Fabiani gives me more reasons to think that the E-Cat works. Which is no proof of course.

          • sam

            Best news I have heard in a while
            regarding the Ecat.
            F.F seems like the person who
            could break this thing wide open.

      • So many questions…

        Is FF still employed by IH? If not what’s he doing?

        Does he maintain contact with Rossi?

        I take it by your statement that he stands by his interview with you and does not believe he was duped.

        Did he opine on the bad measurement + no COP versus ironclad measurements + 50 COP situation?

        Does he takes sides in the legal action? Does he expect to be deposed?

  • georgehants

    It does not need a list of things to advance Cold Fusion, just one.
    Rossi is the only person in the World that is claiming to have discovered a commercially viable method to produce energy.
    He needs to forget his capitalistic, selfish, dreams and if he is genuine with a COP of ~50 then publish NOW.
    I am sure the World governments will award him cash prizes, enough to buy a new tennis racket and bike.
    He is acting like the worst of drug company’s that let millions die and suffer for parents and profit.
    He is the only one advanced enough, if genuine, to open the whole subject for the World and gain the respect of billions.
    Within weeks of his publishing the recipe for a consistent working device, nobody will be able to stop what he has delayed for 5+ years already.

    • tlp

      Rossi is not the only one, Randell Mills is another one. Both have very similar plans for mass production starting 2017.
      Both planning for direct electrical production, so the COP is infinite.
      Biggest difference is that Mills/BrLPs SunCell don’t need refueling once a year as the fuel is just water.

      • georgehants

        tip, thank you, then if Randell Mills is speaking as loudly as Rossi that he has a commercially practical device, then he also needs to stop playing silly little games with peoples lives and publish the recipe for replication.

        • tlp

          Mills has published the receipe in numerous scientific papers and patent applications. Some engineering details are not yet public, as the latest patent applications are filed just recently. Next public demo is in June.

          • georgehants

            tip, has he published the means for anybody to simply replicate and confirm his claims immediately without further knowledge?

          • tlp


          • georgehants

            tip , many thanks, then for what reason are we not receiving many reports of replication of his commercially viable method of creating energy far above the input?

          • tlp

            There is many reports.

          • georgehants

            tip, link please to one of these reports confirming replication of a commercially high energy ready for production, thanks.

          • Billy Jackson

            there isn’t one. both are looking to produce commercially and they are not going to give away the secret so that someone who already has production facilities and distribution centers can get the jump on them.. its financial suicide.

            As much as i respect your stance, you have tried to use the bleeding heart angle to get them to release the device for free (or its information).. its just not going to happen. outside of someone stealing one.. it just wont happen.

          • georgehants

            Billy thank you for answering my question, i do not need you or anybody to judge my stance on Cold Fusion, I simply put my view and you and all are quite free to put yours and believe that money is more important than lives.

          • Billy Jackson

            Your view is just as valid as anyone else. I don’t dispute the need you present at all.

          • kdk

            You keep bringing this up, and I think you should already understand what tons of bricks can be brought down on somebody violating a patent. Those bricks probably coming from somebody with lots of money in oil. It matters who has the patent. If Rossi releases the information publicly, you can bet the patent will get through, and not by him. Then the bricks come down on people trying to do open science.

          • tlp

            Patents means that commercially ready fo production is only possible for Brilliant Light Power.

          • georgehants

            tip, please give links to anybody that has replicated with the details given in the patent a commercially viable device to confirm their claims, that of course anybody can do if not doing so for profit.

          • tlp

            Who would have resources and interest to build quite complicated machine, when you know that you cannot use it commercially?

          • georgehants

            tip, are you saying that no scientists, no commercial organizations would not wish to replicate and publish they had confirmed a new, beyond known science, discovery, thank you for chat.

          • tlp

            There have been replications, but not commercial level, because it would need same resources as BrLP has, and no financial return for the work.

          • georgehants

            tip, a long chat, I am not asking if a commercial replication has happened, I am asking for a link to any scientist etc who has confirmed that the published technology of a commercially viable product has been replicated and works as advertised.
            I am simply asking is there no link to scientific work confirming the advance as I am sure there would very quickly be so if Rossi published all details of his (supposed) discovery, MFMP for one, I think, if so I would find our scientific establishment even more incompetent than already proven.

          • Billy Jackson

            george there has been proof.. the problem arises because every single time they call into question the bias of the tester and some how find fault but never really explain the fault.

          • tlp
          • georgehants

            tip, many thanks again, I am very open-minded on their claims as always, but that is like giving a link to a politician giving his promises that his way will be best for all.
            Proof of the pudding is only in the eating.

          • DocSiders

            I doubt that Rossi has the goods.

            With a COP > 12, a closed loop demonstration would not have to reveal any secrets. Assemble an Isolated Closed Loop system comprised of: An ENCLOSED ECAT that is delivering Heat into a Stirling Engine (or other “heat-to-current” device) that is charging batteries + excess heat doing obvious work (boil water or run a bank of lights)… with the battery driving the inverters/frequency generators that drive the ECAT.

            Run that system in a public place for a few months with a live video internet feed.

            I could build such an assembly for under $10,000 in about a month.

            That is the kind of demonstration we all want to see…and would cost a heck of a lot less in time and money than the #@!?/ing 1 year fiasco.

            Rossi won’t do anything this obvious because he can’t.

          • kdk

            Torkel seems quite bright, energetic, and driven by morals which is a lot more than can be said for some.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I believe that the disclosure of something real at high COP with partial confirmation by independent groups has forever changed the world. To make LENR grow, it clearly needs a reliable product with a big economic advantage. I suspect that the large thermal plant could be one such approach. I think a more rapid deployment of the technology would happen if it was small and affordable by a large number of people.

            I signed up for the small LENR device. Here in Wisconsin, a number of homes are heated by propane — an expensive way to go. Surprisingly, many use in-room, stand-alone propane heaters with CO issues. Accidents happens and people have died. Could a LENR heater fare worse?

            The rise of drones illustrates what happens when technology becomes affordable. First, the big guys (in this case, the military) use it at a cost of millions per drone. Then technology advances, making dense energy sources, lightweight motors with inexpensive drive electronics, and most importantly, inertial navigation and guidance components. BOOM! The market explodes. Government tries to prevent it, but market forces prevail and now small drones cannot be stopped. They have many economic benefits including surveying roads, searching for lost children, photographing from new perspectives, delivering goods and surveying farmer fields. The farm market alone in the US is estimated to be over $US70 Billion.

            Will Rossi prevail? The jury will be shortly out on that. I do like to root for the little guy verses the big corporations, but what will happen in the short term will not change the long term results. I firmly believe that the LENR (not so) secret technology, now out, will prevail.

          • Gerard McEk

            Thomas, you have no idea what LENR will do for drones. If it is true what AR is saying for over a year now, that he is developing a QuarkX-turbine, and it works (F8), then the end of private cars will quickly come to an end and affordable hired drones will fill the air. You just order a drone and within 10 minutes you can enter it. You tell it where to go and off it goes. No streets, no cues straight to you destination, at a speed of a jet plane. Only maybe the last few 100 yards you have to walk, from the public landing place (somewhere on the empty street) to you final desteny.
            I just hope they aren’t allowed to fly everywhere (like around my house ;))

          • Thomas Kaminski

            Gerard I do have an idea what QuarkX would do to the long range flight, but it will take a little time to get the electrical power needed (on the order of 400 watts for a 1KG quad with 10 minutes of flight). It would be cool if the amateur modeling people came up with a jet engine based on LENR. I can remember as a kid seeing “buzz-bomb” type of engines powering U-Control planes. I still remember the cherry red glow of the thrust tube and the echos off the local mountains after the fuel ran out. Pretty impressive.

            And don’t worry about them flying around your house — the government will protect you. At least that portion of the government that doesn’t already know everything about you through your internet connections.

          • cashmemorz

            I’m glad you brought up the CO incidents. If the government is so tied into fossil fuels that it allows CO poisoning then that same government has little or no say in the occasional and short lived gammas and or even short duration neutrons that are SOMETIMES emitted by LENR devices. If it ever came to a court case regarding that point then your example should be pulled into court. However, the government or DOE or other agency could simply use the reasoning that they must update the quality of life by preventing even minor incidences of any kind of radiation as a point of progress for the betterment of the citizenry. It might all come down to which side of the bed the judge got up on the day of decision.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            Good point. Don’t forget the tanks of gasoline and diesel fuel sitting like bombs in garages and the myriad gas and petrol pipelines leaking at inopportune times. There are several natural gas explosions a year in Wisconsin.

          • cashmemorz

            One has to ask what is the “potential” harm that “might” come from using a new untried technology. Anything can be imagined, but until something actually happens to harm a significant number of incidences then there is no basis for such “looking for trouble” where there is none. But some are looking for anything that might put a bad skew on the LENR or more likely Rossi effect.

          • artefact

            Thanks for the hint (June). Sometimes I forget to look in the messageboard.

    • radvar

      Do the math (round numbers): ~7 billion people, ~70 year life span = 100 millions deaths per year. Assume 10% would have lived another year with better energy access (probably more like 10 years, but hey). So each year of delay in introducing LENR potentially results in ~10 million life-years lost per year due to lack of better energy access.

      Then we can talk about quality of life, or, stated differently, escape from daily terrifying insecurity and physical misery…

      • Gerald

        Torkell isn’t losing it. He has a way of turning what looks random events in line and shows the bigger picture. The events and the movements of the big companies I’ve seen myself, he has the talent of turning these actions into predictions. From what I have seen he’s often in the good track.

        True, the latest from him about IH and US politics look far of and a little mad, but based on his track record I give him the benefit of doubt. When it comes to power and money things get real dirty. It sometimes a shame my mind can’t really think like those people, it is must to altruism for it. But my mind is very good in remembering and seeing certain events that don’t look logic at the time. Torkel sees does events to. This guy is just a really really smart, Good to read his ideas and maybe sometime he would be false but that is no problem I think. Like everything you see and read, think about it and draw your own conclusion.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Rossi is the only person
      in the World that is claiming to have discovered a commercially viable method
      to produce energy.

      No, many solar panel makers and others are claiming the same thing. And Rossi is the only person in LENR that you KNOW OF making such a claim. There could be others raising money and building some LENR factory as we speak. Governments are notorious for keeping things from the public, but so are companies like Apple.

      I am sure the World
      governments will award him cash prizes, enough to buy a new tennis racket and

      Are you kidding? You mean the same government that chased Pons and Fleishman out of town? They lost their jobs, their careers and in fact everything they had worked for.

      if genuine, to open
      the whole subject for the World and gain the respect of billions.

      Wow! Spoken like a true socialist! Let’s have a group hug?

      EVERY TIME we turn on lights in our house, the electricity we use, or the wireless radio when we use Wi-Fi or the radio we are using inventions by Tesla!

      But Tesla died broke and penniless. However that’s ok because Tesla has the respect of billions of people? Where were all your socialist foe supporting Tesla then? Your child like naivety that
      because this person does something good, you THEN assume your socialist foe
      will take care of him and open their pockets and provide him with a tennis racket?

      You seem to forget history shows that such people are rewarded with poverty and loss of everything.

      So who are you suggesting that will take care of Rossi? Perhaps you suggesting the same people that took care of P&F or Tesla?

      Such people were nowhere to be seen when the time came to buck up – but boy oh boy did they line up when there was bread being taken out of the oven.

      if he is genuine with
      a COP of ~50 then publish NOW.

      Rossi stated the ERV report shows a COP of 50. So he done that already and stated the ERV COP on his website. So Rossi has published the COP fact of 50 on his web site.

      You seem to think that the ERV report will change anything in the public’s mind beyond what Rossi has stated already? It will not. IN FACT I DON’T THINK PUBLISHING THE REPORT WILL MAKE ONE HILL OF BEANS DIFFERENCE. To be fair, Rossi wants to publish ASAP, and the legal dispute with IH is preventing this. However, I think it is a fantasy that the report
      will change few if anyone’s mind. Skeptics will remain skeptics.

      Rossi has ALREADY stated the COP, so he certainly not holding back or delaying is he? He’s ALREADY told the world.

      And Rossi already did a public demo in 2011 with the press invited to see a reactor in operation.

      And before anyone going to give anyone money, I would think any prudent person would suggest that one say build a working plant, perhaps run it for about a year to prove it works. And along the way you hire someone to log the data. After that, then additional millions or billions can be raised.

      Of course you as socialist think that everyone will just hand their hard earned money out to someone else. You socialists are great at taking and giving away OTHERS people money – so you think people will do the same to Rossi and that’s not the case. Rossi ONLY received
      money after doing demos and having IH test his machine.

      Why should someone who builds a farm for years should now give that farm away?

      Same goes for Rossi. I think SRI would have been a great independent test lab, but with Beryllium involved with SRI, then Rossi can’t really trust them, could he?

      So, who you going to have test your product and ensure they not run away with that product? Why give away your car or farm to someone else that you worked all your life for?

      And from what we heard, IH started taking out patents on LENR against Rossi’s wishes. (so they already trying to take away things from Rossi).

      Rossi already announced he has such technology.

      Tesla died broke and penniless. So your socialist view suggests everyone else will come along and fork out money to Rossi out of their good will?

      If you can come up with a better process to prevent those with this technology
      from being raped, and not dying penniless, then I all ears.

      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Warthog

      Uh…no. See Brillouin, Lenuco, Mills hydrino stuff, and probably others I am not aware of who are “flying under the radar”.

  • AdrianAshfield

    Grief. I would have thought it obvious by now that Rossi’s forecast that only sale of working reactors would quell the critics is right.
    If you can’t accept the verdict of an ERV on the one year operation of a 1 MW plant, what makes you think anything else will?

    • bachcole

      I don’t see Rossi winning this fight, and if he doesn’t it will set back LENR for 5 or 10 more years. If he loses because he doesn’t have the goods, then we can add 5 or 10 more years on to that number. I have only enough hope to keep coming back here.

      The problem I see is that it will not matter if the E-Cat is super-wonderful or not. He is going to lose because I.H. has more money.

      If he should actually start selling working units of any sort of LENR, then everything I said above is wrong.

      • This video has gone completely ignored. Barry Unger, a former gov adviser on commercialization of disruptive technologies spoke at MIT about the way forward, with some predictions.

        I would highly recommend everyone to watch it from start to finish – maybe even make a article about it.

      • I agree that money may talk – Rossi is very heavily outgunned, and it seems highly likely that he faces a larger group than Cherokee/IH alone (perhaps including the USG) who may not fight by the rules.

        If the thread of speculation that says Cherokee/IH has the IP for the 1MW reactor but not for the ‘X/Quark’ is correct then the game changes. This would mean that he is in a position to sacrifice the ‘LT’ IP with little personal damage, since others would already possess it. He could either give it away online, or releasing running prototypes to two or three competing (non-US) universities for testing, knowing that it’s secrets would be quickly uncovered, but also that there would be public confirmation of the reality of cold fusion.

        Release of the ‘LT’ IP in either way would immediately negate any commercial value to whatever IP IH has been able to acquire, and would allow Rossi to withdraw his suit as clearly IH wouldn’t pay for IP that was by then in the public domain. He would then be able to capitalise on the ‘Quark’ technology in the usual ways, as cold fusion would have been proven by replication (and commercilisation by many) of the LT type, removing the belief barrier.

        Widespread replication of the LT type would also rapidly create a history of safety (assuming that it is safe!) which would make the introduction of the more advanced variety much easier by providing a basis for safety certification. This is a potential barrier that seems to be constantly underestimated by both Rossi and a number of commenters, and which would be particularly damaging if the process could be interfered with by agents of those who might want to contain the technology.

  • kdk

    SPAWAR has done work with using it, LENR, on spent fuel, I thought anyway, and that would be interesting to learn more about. Admittedly, when you throw in these already radioactive fuels, it may not be something to play around with casually, or probably any heavier elements, would be my random guess.

  • Bruce__H

    Krivit draws conclusions that the true believers of Rossi don’t like, but his reporting is impeccable. What has he reported that has turned out to be wrong?

  • Not sure, but it could be both.

  • Andre Blum
    • Thomas Kaminski

      Torkell is reporting facts that he sees as someone who analyzes big data. He outed Weaver and has reported on the rise of attacks on LENR. I do not see that he is “loosing” it, rather reporting the facts from his unique perspective. His opinions and theories are stated as well, but I find his theories more plausible than not. What specific facts do you have that lead you to the conclusion that he is “loosing” it?

      • Zephir

        The ignorance of cold fusion is not result of conspiracy but pluralistic ignorance. This is an emergent groupthink effect, not centrally planed or organized action.

        Instead of it, any recall of conspiracy should be considered as an appeal to ridicule falacy, the purpose of which is to cover the pluralistic ignorance of mainstream physics community.

        • Bruce__H

          I fail to understand how you picture all this. Particularly the pluralistic ignorance part. You think that the general disparagement of cold fusion in the mainstream scientific community reflects a situation where most individuals scientists privately believe in LENR but officially reject it? That sounds wrong to me.

          I think that most mainstream scientists believe that the evidence base for LENR is lacking. Simple as that.

          • Zephir

            Pluralistic ignorance is based on widespread vicious circle of belief, that it has no meaning to replicate the controversial phenomena, because no successful replications of it exists. If everyone acts in this way, then the replications of cold fusion will really never come, because nobody actually does the replications – which enforces this belief in the eyes of mainstream more and more.

          • Bruce__H

            OK. This makes some sense. The problem of when do you pursue something and when don’t you is always with us. If people see a lack of evidence for something they tend to focus their energies elsewhere. I think it is reasonable and not vicious.

            I still don’t see how the term “pluralistic ignorance” maps on what you have described. The definition of the term contained in the links you posted seems different from the way you are using it.

          • Zephir

            /* If people see a lack of evidence for something they tend to focus their energies elsewhere. I think it is reasonable and not vicious */

            The intensity and obstinacy in which the important findings are dismissed is proportional the amount of grant money in alternative competitive research. The cold fusion gets ignored the most, just because it competes the research of alternative methods of energy production/conversion/transport and storage (from hot fusion and coal plants over solar and wind plants to batteries). All these areas of research will be inflicted with occasional success of cold fusion, so that all researchers have good reason to ignore the cold fusion as a single man. I also consider this socioeconomic stance logical – but it’s also sorta embezzlement of public money dedicated for research, so I don’t consider it ethical.

            Because we – tax payers – don’t pay the researchers for the methods, which would provide theme most safe and reliable income – but for the development of most effective way of energy production and handling possible.

            It’s our money, not the money of researchers.

          • Zephir

            In this article I’m explaining the possible nature of dark photons.


            The dark photons can be understood as a bubbles of negative curvature of space-time. These bubbles exist around very dense particles of matter just because the space-time is already heavily curved there in positive way. This positive curvature opens the way for negative curvature artifacts.

            In this sense the negativism of mainstream science against cold fusion and taboo of its research can be also understood as an emergent effect of huge amount of money, which the energetic research already attracts. This strong attractive force opens the way for strong repulsion of competitive research – analogy of dark matter effects or “fifth force”.

          • Zephir

            /* The definition of the term contained in the links you posted seems different from the way you are using it. */

            It’s just an application of definition of pluralistic ignorance. In social psychology, pluralistic ignorance is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, but incorrectly assume that most others accept it, and therefore go along with it.

            Analogously, many mainstream physicists are seriously interested about advances of cold fusion research and they’re watching it closely. But because they do believe, the cold fusion hasn’t been proven with other physicists, they’re follow the stance of the mainstream at public. And this stance is, the cold fusion doesn’t work.

            This is also described as “no one believes (that cold fusion isn’t really working) at private – but everyone thinks that everyone believes (that the cold fusion is really working).” In short, pluralistic ignorance is a bias about a social group, held by a social group itself (in this case the social group of mainstream physicists).


          • Bruce__H

            Why do you think that many mainstream scientists secretly believe cold fusion is true?

          • Zephir

            Because they’re following its events closely at their blogs and elsewhere – even though they don’t penetrate the mainstream press. Usually such a research gets ignored.

          • Bruce__H

            They don’t believe it is true. They are just interested. Like me. I don’t accept that there is sufficient evidence that LENR as real but it is interesting and, after all, it is an empirical claim. Perhaps at some point someone will make a good case.

          • Zephir

            /* They are just interested. Like me */

            After then you don’t understand your own feelings: the people usually don’t give a sh*t about things, which they’re already convinced, they’re BS. Your interest about cold fusion (not to say about participation at the forum like this one) indicates, you’re still considering the possibility of cold fusion existence on background. This is just the controversy, which the pluralistic ignorance is all about.

    • Mats002

      I like the scientistic phenomena approach, LENR is not new in ‘official science’ but goes under other names, see this report from Stanford:

      They get X-Rays of the same kind as MFMP Glowstick 5.2 and the reason can be:

      The well known pinch effect at its lowest threshold or

      Hydrino (they describe it but no naming) or

      Rydberg matter.

      This was 19 years ago.

      • Green&Grinch

        No offense, I don’t believe in official and unofficial science. We all humbly know that we have limited knowledge of the universe, but we ought to admit that we are left with a perfectly working system and no idea of why it works. And this sounds strange to me. I have been following the e-cat since 2009, with honest interest. Yes, you are mentioning interesting theories but I hardly believe that any of them would fully describe what we have been told it’s happening. Great, there has been cases when radiation was produced, but none of them was understood, they were minimal, very unstable, and now everything works perfectly. What are we looking at? What’s this amazing matter? The day they will start providing real information is teh day we will be able to understand what’s the case. So far, we are all trying to fit existing theories on a total lack of info.

        • Zephir

          /* I don’t believe in official and unofficial science */

          The cold fusion never penetrated the peer-reviewed mainstream journals, which just represent the boundary between official and unofficial science. The official science is based on reproduction and verification of experiments – well, and the cold fusion experiments were never attempted to replicate in mainstream journals. Some cold fusion experiments (like the cold fusion at palladium patented by Tangberg 1927 for example) are nearly one century old – and today we still have no attempt for replication in mainstream journals published. So it’s evident, these findings represent a taboo (i.e. cognitive bubble of negative curvature) for mainstream science.

          • Green&Grinch

            Hold on, my sentence meant that science is divided between official and unofficial. Science is repeatable or it’s not science at all. All this matter about cold fusion/LENR works not accepted by “official science” should be rephrased in cold fusion/LENR not providing repeatable experimental procedures sufficient to convince the reviewer… Here is clearly not the case. The documents provided contain huge obscure areas such as the actual properties of the fuel. Given that I understand all the IP issues related to disclosing such info, I respect Rossi’s approach. I just believe that, so far, this is not science yet.

          • Zephir

            /* Science is repeatable or it’s not science at all. */

            I beg to disagree – in part. The difference is in the assumption, that the phenomena have no meaning to study, until we have no working coherent theory for their research. But many (actually the most) of breakthrough findings in the past were made by accident. But what the mainstream science does today is the systematical ignorance of phenomena, which have no theory developed yet. And at the moment, when these phenomena seem to violate the established theories, then this ignorance overgrows into plain dismissal of their research. Which is indeed bad: our scientists aren’t payed for purposeful confirmation of their pet theories only – on the contrary, they should be focused into their falsification instead according to current Carl Popper’s doctrine of science.

            We should simply admit the fact, that many significant findings were not driven by theory in repeatable way in the past and after then it has a good meaning to study even the phenomena, which cannot be replicated well under current level of understanding – simply because we don’t understand their hidden mechanisms/principles well. We just should continue in their analysis and to find these mechanisms later.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            OK, this is way off topic. But it is Memorial Day weekend and
            maybe we can think of the Dauntless and its pilot in the first part of this video (1:00 min) as a metaphor for the E-Cat and Rossi.

          • This is the IH inside guy working the complete anti-lenr agenda. Compared to him MY, GW and Krivit looks like saints. His name is Fred Zoepfl and he is angry.

  • jousterusa

    One way to improve upon 1989 would be to identify the members of the House Armed Services *HAS) Committee, and then ask them if they would like any info on LENR to question the SecDef intelligently on Sept. 22. Another would be to contact science editors, who probably still feel burned by 1989, tell them about the HAs and the SecDef, and offer any assistance you can. If both of these campaigns were conducted in an organized way, it might make a very big difference. As it stands, in all likelihood there will be no hearing on LENR on Sept. 22, as the SecDef will probably request an extension of time, and it will putter on from there for years or forever. It remains the main shot we will get in the coming years, and we would more or less have to hijack it. As always, getting voters involved is the best chance of defeating Congressional apathy.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Galileo Galilei, Giordano Bruno, F&P and the guy in this
      video all went before government committees. Maybe there’s a better way to go about this.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Are we ready for LENR? Or, is society going to be allowed to accept LENR?

        “Now the essential point in this part of Vico’s theory is that society, rather than being composed of an aggregate of individual people, really constituted a sort of unity, i.e. had a unified structure, and the sort of beliefs, attitudes, etc., which individuals have are to be explained by their place in this structure. To know, for example, the beliefs and attitudes which lay behind a certain course of action, one didn’t need to have access to the hidden interior of an individual’s mind, nor even to the details of all the specific experiences he had had. What one needed was some appreciation of the general nature of the various parts of society in which he moved.”, pg 8.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      There may have been another reason for repeatedly trashing Pons and Fleischmann’s work.

      From page 49 of Frank Close’s 1991 book Too Hot to Handle.

      “…Tritium is an essential fuel in thermonuclear weapons; it is also a product of dd fusion – the very process that the Utah chemists claimed to be able to make happen inexpensively in a test tube. The US military were already spending vast sums on making tritium for warheads and the reactors that were used for this process had been closed, pending repairs, in 1988 as a result of nervousness about reactor safety following the Chernobyl
      accident. The repair and building new reactors would cost billions of dollars, so when test-tube fusion entered the scene the military took note at once, recognizing the potential of test-tube fusion as a source of much-needed tritium. This sort of application of test-tube fusion also impressed Indian Government scientists who
      decided that western nations would soon classify test-tube fusion as a secret; thus India mounted an immediate test-tube fusion research effort so as to ‘get in on the ground floor’….”

  • kdk

    I guess we have very different experiences with them then.

  • Ged

    Uh… no, IH submitted waivers to stay their publication date (actually, each named defendent submitted a waiver). Go look at the docket, tge actual court documents are published there. Rossi simply accepted their waiver instead of challenging it (good thing to do).

  • US_Citizen71

    I’m guessing you don’t do any web-hosting. Websites can and do collect information on their visitors computers. The data he is presenting is for a visitor’s computer not a website. The computer was Windows 7 model, the browser was Chrome and the monitor was 1650×1050. The IP address goes back to a block reserved for the State Department.

    • Rossi told me so already back in 2011.

      • psi2u2

        It is hard to believe, isn’t it?

  • Bob Matulis

    #1 will settle things. Lack of reliable replication has been the critics main weapon – and has some legitimacy. If and when a recipe can allow any University to replicate and confirm the reality of LENR will be established.

    • Zephir

      One thing is for sure: the finding of cold fusion threats the research jobs, grants and social credit of too many scientists at once for to believe in open support of cold fusion by mainstream physics – no matter how well it was or will get confirmed experimentally.

      Therefore the findings and observations which could gain only scientific importance have no chance for success here and the cold fusion must be commercialized first for to change in paradigm of mainstream physicists thinking.

      • Chapman

        Damn Zephir, between this post and your observations about the casimir effect I am beginning to think you might just be worth listening to. That is not a sideways insult – I am saying that while some of your thoughts are a little “out there” you repeatedly hit on little nuggets of wisdom and insight.

        I am not the ass I may appear to be from some of my frustrated posts. I enjoy reading about “unconventional” theories, as long as they are grounded on sound principles and recorded observations. All great theories start out as speculation and slowly change from possible to probable to likely as more observations support it, and no observations arise to refute it.

        Still, I draw the line at warp drives, reality responding to conscious observation, and honest used car salesman. But I would like to read more on your thoughts regarding anything else.

      • roseland67

        Don’t see it that way, Zephir,
        Just the opposite in fact.
        IF, LENR proves to be what we have been lead to believe it is, (and so far it is not), the possibilities for research would be staggering. In fact, I would imagine that many of the existing physicists would be tasked to LENR development, understanding and exploitation.

        • Zephir

          /* LENR proves to be what we have been lead to believe it is, (and so far it is not), */

          We already have thousands of positive results about LENR

          But the cold fusion research is ignored with mainstream science and it’s maintained mostly be volunteers only. Try to imagine, how the research of Higgs boson, gravitational waves or let say hot fusion would advance, if it would be supported with volunteers only. The practical applications would be hundred years ahead…

          The practical consequence of this ignorance will be, the firsts cold fusion megawatt plants will be based on effect, which is denied by mainstream physics, which routinely confirms the phenomena at the picowatt scale. This is an ignorance in the range of eighteen orders of magnitude!

        • kdk

          However the problem now is that they would get sacked for doing it, not once it’s already accepted.

  • roseland67

    In he end the only thing that can bury LENR
    Is that is doesn’t work.
    If it works as stated and excess heat can be
    Achieved, scaled, safe, cost effective, reliable, repeatable then it doesn’t matter how much excretment you pile on top.

    • Chapman


      LENR, once fully developed and certified, will create it’s own market, regardless of naysayers and the denials of skeptics. Half the world could well refuse to believe and insist it’s a scam, but that will not prevent the other half from standing in line to buy.

      • Zephir

        The only question is, if this breakthrough will come after some major global conflict, or if we succeed in its implementation without it. We shouldn’t forget, the implementation of nuclear fission also did come after II WWW and the human history repeats in waves. Our time for peaceful implementation of cold fusion is not unlimited.

  • Warthog

    There is no place in real science for “suspicion”.

    And no, that is not what “did in” the Pons and Fleischmann results, but bad science done by the supposed “negative replicators”, who IGNORED all the rules of science by not waiting for Pons and Fleischmann’s official publication of details to try replications..doing stupid things like trying to measure the P&F cell dimensions using a ruler on a TV screen.

    Yet, because the labs doing that poor science were labelled MIT, Cal Tech (and I forget the big name British lab which was also involved), their “arguments” carried the day, despite their poor experimental work.

    Attempts to replicate the experiments of the “negative replicators” done years later by experienced LENR researchers found and exposed the procedural errors in their work…basically not running long enough the reach the needed level of deuterium loading.

    It should be noted that P & F’s work WAS replicated almost immediately by Bockris, who took the simple step of calling Fleischmann on the phone and getting the real experimental details, and then carrying out his groups work using those details.

  • psi2u2

    Do you have some inside information that leads you to this confidence or is this your interpretation of the same tea leaves that the rest of us are reading?

  • Roland

    4. The Fabio Penon report being released:

    The report is to be entered into evidence, along with an enormous volume of acquired data in support of the report conclusions, under oath as to its veracity. I would rate this as very likely to occur.

    There’s an ancient adage in the legal profession; speed is the friend of truth. Granting IH doesn’t start dragging their heels (the converse adage being that when truth is not your friend delay, delay and delay some more) the report will be in the public record soon enough and the contents will already have been subject to rigorous scrutiny.

    5. Andrea Rossi demonstrating an E-Cat reactor clearly running in a controlled self-sustain mode at a high COP in a public and convincing way.

    I would take this as general, though not particularly subtle, encouragement for Rossi to knock it out of the park in the post client demo, for the interested public, that he proposed recently; I heartily concur as the ship has to leave the dock at some point in time.

    Once the ship leaves the dock it is helpful to the general enterprise if the engine engages with great reliability as this makes everyone feel so much better than failure inevitably does; to that end it’s usually better to be certain than to make the scheduled day and hour in a state of uncertainty.

    The potential audience for this, internet, demo can be expected to be highly diverse.

    The point will be to tick off all the boxes serious players will want ticked off, at this level of initial presentation, so that they are prepared to become engaged in the process of learning more about the economic potential that this technology offers, within the scope of their existing businesses, and how LENR will shape their businesses into the future.

    The moment that the economic realities take hold in the minds of the early movers, a few minutes with a calculator should suffice, an unstoppable movement of monumental import will be underway.

    Scientists will, of course, want to know everything; they will be disappointed. The open minded among them will be intrigued, the experimentally minded will be inspired, the ambitious will redouble their efforts, the willfully obdurate will seek fresh chinks in the armour and the ideologically opposed will, as usual, learn little or nothing.

    In so far as scalability is intrinsic to the Quark’s modular design, and that the available output modalities will interface readily with existing infrastructure, this single seed crystal has the potential to precipitate rapid and sweeping changes effecting economics, geopolitics, the planetary ecology, space exploration and habitation and the prospect of a viable high concept future for humanity.

    So yes, some thoughtfulness about exactly how to present the Quark to the planet is appropriate.

  • Zephir

    I’d prefer to say, I’m well informed. Today it’s not quite necessary to be very bright or inventive, we just should keep on mind the previous results and not to forget them fast – or we will remain always at the very beginning of thoughts. The good memory and ability to combine known facts, rather than analytical thinking can be useful at the era of emergent hyperdimensional physics. For deterministically thinking people such a holistic way of thinking may look incoherent, but this is simply how the hyperdimensional objects look-like from our low-dimensional perspective: you should always connect the dots. After all, why do you think the massive bodies are composed of mutually isolated atoms and molecules? They’re just hyperdimensional objects, which we can observe from low-dimensional perspective only.

  • Warthog

    Dispassionate scientific skepticism is not and has never been practiced by the physics community with respect to LENR. From day one, said community has labelled Pons and Fleischmann “frauds” and their work “pathological science”. Said community also indulged in an experimental “rush to judgment” with such features as MIT holding a “funeral party” for cold fusion after several negative experiments surfaced (note…NOT published in peer-reviewed journals).

    Your every meme on this thread has come directly out of the pathological skeptics playbook .

    “So can any scientist in the field now take the Pons and Fleischmann method, as replicated by Brockris, and securely and reliably replicate the findings?”

    No, and I wouldn’t expect them to be able to. Electrochemical experiments of any sort are fiendishly difficult…but I would expect an expert electrochemist to be able to do so. And in fact the early successes were all done by expert electrochemists.

    “No they can’t — it just hasn’t turned out that way.

    Actually, they can…..but not using the Pons and Fleischmann approach. The Pd/D2 co-deposition work by the SPAWAR labs works repeatably and has been replicated by other labs.

    “Almost 30 years after the initial report I would have expected the technique to be reliably used
    for something or other … making isotopes for instance if not for energy production.

    See recent work by Toyota and replicated by Mitsubishi (I may have that company order backwards).

    “But we see nothing like this. LENR researchers are still struggling to come up with the basics.”

    Yup, with no significant funding, it is hard to do sophisticated science. And yet work has gotten has just taken longer. Meanwhile, “hot fusion” has sucked up billions of dollars and delivered nothing usable.

    “The field is infested with conspiracy theorists
    and fraud artists.

    Really?? Where are they?? When I read the papers and watch the videos of the ICCF meetings, I don’t see any evidence of such. Quite the opposite. The ONLY actual proven fraud ever committed in the field of LENR was done by the MIT physics department, and documented thoroughly by Eugene Mallove. Of course, I am sure you will dismiss that as “conspiracy theory”.

    “This is why I am suspicious of the whole field even
    though I keep an open mind about its fundamental reality.

    “Keep an open mind……” Nope…not that I can discern from your postings.

  • Zephir

    /* A runaway reaction like this would definitely qualify. So where are the papers? */

    First of all, these journals never publish experimental works without underlying theory, at second the accidental runaways don’t count as a reproducible science. At third, the cold fusion research is a taboo in Nature or Science from 1926

    • Bruce__H

      First of all these journals do indeed publish experimental works without underlying theory. I can think of lots of them. Why do you think they don’t?

      Second, runaway reactions do count as reproducible science if they are reproducible. That is my whole point.

      Third, the link you provide doesn’t say anything about cold fusion, a taboo, or the journals Nature or Science (except to cite them as publications in which papers did indeed appear). In general, prestigious mainline journals would rather publish a surprising empirical result than a paper about theory.

      Finally, is there a peer reviewed paper describing Dr Levi’s experiences? I hope so. I expect, however, that what you are citing is yet another second or third hand account of something that may or may not have happened sometime somewhere. Amazing tales! But not science..

  • Zephir

    /* My naive view is that, so far, patent issues (very valid ones) have
    forbidden a repetition of the experiments by the scientific community
    because incomplete details were provided. Shall we agree on this
    starting point? */
    Nope, even the very first cold fusion attempts of Panneth and Petters from 1926 were not attempted to replicate so far – not to say about later articles.

  • Warthog

    “When you say an
    expert electrochemist should be able to do it that is erxactly what I am

    Uh, no….that may be what you meant, but it is not what you “said”.

    “It is because the basic phenomenon has not turned out to be solid enough to push forward with”

    Again, no. That hasn’t happened because not enough fundamental research has been funded for it to happen.

    Compare the numbers of people working on and budgets spent on “hot fusion” to that spent on LENR. Thousands of people and billions of dollars to maybe a few dozen and probably well less than $50MM of research budget.

    “..if he is a researcher then he is one whose every action over his whole working lifetime just happens to look like the activity of a con man. I’m amazed that
    people don’t get this but I guess that cognitive dissonance accounts for a lot.

    LOL…and once again, every thought in your post is right out of the skeptopath script. I’ve taken the trouble to read the government research reports on that of his work that was federal grant funded, and there is NO evidence of fraud of any sort. And his conviction in Italy involved financial fraud….not scientific. When he emigrated to the US, he licensed his “waste to oil” tech to an American firm, who commercialized it, and which made him wealthy enough to privately fund all his original LENR work. Where’s the fraud??

    • Alan Smith


      “The majority of politicians, on the evidence available to us, are interested not in truth but in power and in the maintenance of that power. To maintain that power it is essential that people remain in ignorance, that they live in ignorance of the truth, even the truth of their own lives. What surrounds us therefore is a vast tapestry of lies, upon which we feed.”– Harold Pinter, Nobel Lecture (Literature), 2005…sts-lying-more-than-ever-.


      • GreenWin

        Alan Smith, THANK YOU for this brilliant quote from a great playwright! The tapestry has evolved of late – it is woven not by a textile loom, but by a deeply misanthropic computer simulation. Lacking most in understanding human compassion.