How to Avoid a 1989 Cold Fusion Repeat in 2016

The rise and fall of cold fusion after Pons and Fleischmann introduced it to the world in 1989 has been discussed at length over the years and the details don’t need to be rehearsed here. It was a dramatic process that played out on the world stage which resulted in the lasting impact of driving LENR research underground for decades.

There was great hope and excitement when the news was first broadcast around the world by the at-first enthusiastic media — but within months the excitement turned to dismay and then largely to disgust as influential figures repeatedly trashed Pons and Fleischmann’s work and the two formerly respected scientists were effectively excommunicated from the scientific community.

Anticipation was high after the conclusion of the the 1MW E-Cat plant test — many watchers were hoping for a conclusive report being published and the beginning of a new age of acceptance of cold fusion as a miraculous new energy source. However for many people the news of Andrea Rossi’s lawsuit against Industrial Heat had the effect of throwing a cold wet blanket in their faces, and being left to wonder about what is happening.

Are we experiencing a repeat of 1989? The LENR field had showed signs of emerging from its years in the wilderness, with more people taking it seriously — but with the E-Cat now being called into question, is LENR about be be driven into the deep underground again?

Personally, I don’t think this has to happen. But to avoid this fate some things need to happen. Here are some things that I think could keep the field from drifting again into obscurity (in no particular order)

1. A recipe and instructions for achieving an obvious LENR reaction is released publicly, and people are able to replicate it consistently.

2. A company releasing a LENR product to the market that can be bought and used, demonstrating that LENR is an obviously real effect.

3. Government or university labs publishing reports in prestigious peer-reviewed publications that LENR is a real phenomenon that has the potential to be a practical source of energy.

4. The Fabio Penon report being released, showing clearly that the E-Cat plant was able to run at a very high COP for year.

5. Andrea Rossi demonstrating an E-Cat reactor clearly running in a controlled self-sustain mode at a high COP in a public and convincing way.

6. An E-Cat customer coming forward publicly and confirming that the plant saved them a lot of money in energy costs.

7. A large and well-funded company announcing they are developing LENR products.

There are probably many more things that could happen that would kindle more interest in the field. The point is that in order to get the attention that field needs in order to grow and flourish, public credibility needs to be built.

There will always be interest among some of us in LENR. I believe that there are thousands of people already around the world who are convinced it is a superior energy technology. However, at the moment we are a tiny minority of thinkers, seen by the mainstream as fringe players who are probably out of touch with reality, and therefore easy to be dismissed. In order for LENR to emerge from the fringes something will have to change.

  • Bruce__H

    I completely agree with 1 and 3 and think all the rest of the requirements on your list are good too.

    My take is that LENR at high COP is probably a figment of people’s imagination but that there may be something to the more modest results people are reporting. People on this forum should think about how much damage Rossi could do to the whole field if and when he turns out to have nothing. It is particularly dangerous to talk him up and revere him in the way we see here. The raised expectations I see surrounding Rossi reminds me of the fevered aura around Pons and Fleischmann and look at what that did to the field.

    People have to learn how to value thorough incremental research (such as the work of the MFMP or work on hot fusion). Slow and steady wins the race.

    • Warthog

      Given the huge number of “thermal runaways” seen by pretty much all LENR researchers (including Pons and Fleischmann), “high COP” is almost certainly NOT a “figment of people’s imagination”.

      High COP with good control OTOH, appears to be quite difficult.

      • Private Citizen

        Will accept a repeatable recipe for “thermal runaway.” Care to cite one?

        • Zephir

          Actually most of first Fleischman-Pons attempts for cold fusion ended just with thermal runaway. The whole secret here is the sufficient saturation of palladium with deuterium – it may take weeks or months. The problem was, the ability of palladium to catalyze cold fusion ended by these events in most cases, so that many thermal runaways were actually silent, unnoticed and counted into “failures”.

    • Chapman

      I find it interesting how you can appear to be encouraging and supportive of the LENR field in general, while casually dropping little Rossi hate-bombs in the middle of your thoughts.

      You might want to stop and think about the fact that MFMP (who I happen to love and revere), and all the other replicators and labs out there are merely sniffing down Rossi’s trail of breadcrumbs. The researchers doing novel and decidedly NON-Rossi research are dead-ends barely able to initiate any kind of basic reaction TO study, like the failed Brillion (who only seems to have achieved ANYTHING after bailing on their previous research and began cloning/stealing Rossi’s E-Cat tech).

      It seems to me to be an incredibly self-contradictory approach to strongly imply Rossi has nothing, and is a fraud, and a danger to the future of LENR research itself, while placing your hopes for the future of humanity upon the shoulders of those who are simply trying to catch up to Rossi and repeat what he has already done.

      You are, in essence, saying “Columbus is a fool! Do not give him ships! The world is flat! He is a liar and a con artist. There is no other continent… and when WE get to AMERICA we will PROVE IT!!!”

      Sorry friend, but the argument is more than slightly on the moronic end of the intellectual scale.

      Also, in real life the Slow and Steady get left behind, and the tortious usually winds up in the soup kettle. I prefer to seek guidance from the mature wisdom and insights of those who have succeeded where I have only dreamed, rather than set my course according to catchphrases remembered from silly fables from my youth. They are just silly stories meant for silly minds.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Good article Frank. I would just add one more to your list. We need more impartial individual reporters like Mats Lewan interested in the LENR story who are connected to major news outlets. It is my opinion this is something this group could change, contacting local reporters, making them aware of the very interesting LENR story. Just like any organization good ideas, in this case ideas for a good story, come from the grunts in the field.

      • Warthog

        LOL, the standard refrain of the pathological skeptic.

        It is sort of hard to mistake a hole burned through a Transite lab bench top and into a concrete floor. Easy to replicate….no. Easy to mistake…..also no.

        I suggest that you folks stop the propaganda war that has totally denied research funding into LENR and allow such studies to actually be funded and done (you know, that stuff called “thorough incremental research”), as recommended in both DOE reviews. For some reason, no such funding has ever appeared. I wonder if the preponderance of physics majors in the management of government funding agencies might have something to do with that.

        And then there are the “dog in the manger” tactics such as than perpetrated by the MIT physics department when Peter Hagelstein convinced a private firm to donate a mere $90K for experimental work in LENR. The physics boys called the manager and got that huge grant blocked.

        And things like the attempted academic crucifixion of John Bockris for daring to report a positive cold fusion result.

        And on and on and on it goes.

        • Private Citizen

          Warthog: It is sort of hard to mistake a hole burned through a Transite lab bench top and into a concrete floor.

          That is definitely the kind of thing you would photograph and disperse widely, no? Links? I’ve not seen any photos but have heard the stores too. Not trying to be a contrarian, i’d love to see the photos and be put in place.

          Or only stories and no photos to keep that allure of the meltdown maybe not happening?

          • DocSiders

            Hagelstein didn’t have the COP to pull off an isolated, totally off the grid self sustaining system. Rossi claims that he does, so let’s see it already.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Not necessary. The NANOR’s he had have very high COP, just small power output.

          • Warthog

            At the time, P & F were holding all data confidential, as this happened before their public comments. And I’m sure their own take at the time was the same as yours…”anecdotal data”, and that they should wait for their more detailed quantitative results.

            What we know with certainty is that multiple eyewitnesses saw the results. I too have wondered if there might have been photos, or even undeveloped film stashed away in some file cabinet at U. of Utah.

          • Zavod

            Ultimately, it is up to the individual observer to remain reasonably skeptical of grandiose claims made by people who fail time and again to deliver. Rossi is one such person.

          • Zephir

            /* I think you are saying that publicly funded researchers stick to what is mainstream and ignore alternatives …. as a publicly funded researcher, that this is only partly true */

            It works quite reliably at the case of research of cold fusion, room temperature superconductivity, antigravity, overunity and negentropic phenomena, scalar waves, water clusters, psychic phenomena and many similar stuffs. You can find their research nowhere in peer-reviewed journals and the findings published in the rest are never attempted to replicate.

    • kdk

      The various thermal runaways prove LENR beyond any doubt, and also its potential. It’s only a matter of finding the proper environmental variables which lead to the runaways.

  • Bruce__H

    I completely agree with 1 and 3 and think all the rest of the requirements on your list are good too.

    My take is that LENR at high COP is probably a figment of people’s imagination but that there may be something to the more modest results people are reporting. People on this forum should think about how much damage Rossi could do to the whole field if and when he turns out to have nothing. It is particularly dangerous to talk him up and revere him in the way we see here. The raised expectations I see surrounding Rossi reminds me of the fevered aura around Pons and Fleischmann and look at what that did to the field.

    People have to learn how to value thorough incremental research (such as the work of the MFMP or work on hot fusion). Slow and steady wins the race.

    • Warthog

      Given the huge number of “thermal runaways” seen by pretty much all LENR researchers (including Pons and Fleischmann), “high COP” is almost certainly NOT a “figment of people’s imagination”.

      High COP with good control OTOH, appears to be quite difficult.

      • Bruce__H

        I await the description, careful evaluation, and reliable replication of “thermal runaways” in important peer reviewed journals. Right now this is at the stage of anecdote and the accounts could easily be mistaken . The field really needs to push beyond this

        • Warthog

          LOL, the standard refrain of the pathological skeptic.

          It is sort of hard to mistake a hole burned through a Transite lab bench top and into a concrete floor. Easy to replicate….no. Easy to mistake…..also no.

          I suggest that you folks stop the propaganda war that has totally denied research funding into LENR and allow such studies to actually be funded and done (you know, that stuff called “thorough incremental research”), as recommended in both DOE reviews. For some reason, no such funding has ever appeared. I wonder if the preponderance of physics majors in the management of government funding agencies might have something to do with that.

          And then there are the “dog in the manger” tactics such as than perpetrated by the MIT physics department when Peter Hagelstein convinced a private firm to donate a mere $90K for experimental work in LENR. The physics boys called the manager and got that huge grant blocked.

          And things like the attempted academic crucifixion of John Bockris for daring to report a positive cold fusion result.

          And on and on and on it goes.

          • Bruce__H

            The field needs to be grounded in reality. Please see Frank Acland’s points 1 and 3 above.

            Retailing conspiracy theories doesn’t push things forward.

          • Warthog

            There is nothing “theoretical” about the actions taken by the anti-LENR faction. Large numbers of the incidents are documented in various commentaries over the years.

            I’ve followed LENR since P & F’s first comments, and the dirty politics played by the “hot fusion” community has left me totally disgusted with their actions.

            What WOULD “push things forward” would be for those dirty “political scientists” to actually engage in the use of the real methods of science instead of knee-jerk negativity.

          • Bruce__H

            People are suspicious of results that don’t have a clear track record of replication. That is what did in the Pons and Fleischmann results. That is where the negativity comes from. Conspiracy theories flood in when people can’t prove their case in the usual scientific way.

          • Warthog

            There is no place in real science for “suspicion”.

            And no, that is not what “did in” the Pons and Fleischmann results, but bad science done by the supposed “negative replicators”, who IGNORED all the rules of science by not waiting for Pons and Fleischmann’s official publication of details to try replications..doing stupid things like trying to measure the P&F cell dimensions using a ruler on a TV screen.

            Yet, because the labs doing that poor science were labelled MIT, Cal Tech (and I forget the big name British lab which was also involved), their “arguments” carried the day, despite their poor experimental work.

            Attempts to replicate the experiments of the “negative replicators” done years later by experienced LENR researchers found and exposed the procedural errors in their work…basically not running long enough the reach the needed level of deuterium loading.

            It should be noted that P & F’s work WAS replicated almost immediately by Bockris, who took the simple step of calling Fleischmann on the phone and getting the real experimental details, and then carrying out his groups work using those details.

          • Bruce__H

            Warthog said “There is no place in real science for “suspicion””. I’m not sure where you get your information but you are completely wrong about this. Suspicion/scepticism is at the heart of empirical science. Gosh, I am suspicious of my own results until I check them out over and over and even then it can turn out that I am wrong. Real discoveries can be replicated by others. I welcome other’s attempts to replicate my findings and I have no fear of being proved wrong because in my view that just clarifies the situation.

            So can any scientist in the field now take the Pons and Fleischmann method, as replicated by Brockris, and securely and reliably replicate the findings? No they can’t — it just hasn’t turned out that way. Almost 30 years after the initial report I would have expected the technique to be reliably used for something or other … making isotopes for instance if not for energy production. But we see nothing like this. LENR researchers are still struggling to come up with the basics. The field is infested with conspiracy theorists and fraud artists. This is why I am suspicious of the whole field even though I keep an open mind about its fundamental reality. And this is why I welcome Frank Acland’s contribution in this blog.

          • Warthog

            Dispassionate scientific skepticism is not and has never been practiced by the physics community with respect to LENR. From day one, said community has labelled Pons and Fleischmann “frauds” and their work “pathological science”. Said community also indulged in an experimental “rush to judgment” with such features as MIT holding a “funeral party” for cold fusion after several negative experiments surfaced (note…NOT published in peer-reviewed journals).

            Your every meme on this thread has come directly out of the pathological skeptics playbook .

            “So can any scientist in the field now take the Pons and Fleischmann method, as replicated by Brockris, and securely and reliably replicate the findings?”

            No, and I wouldn’t expect them to be able to. Electrochemical experiments of any sort are fiendishly difficult…but I would expect an expert electrochemist to be able to do so. And in fact the early successes were all done by expert electrochemists.

            “No they can’t — it just hasn’t turned out that way.

            Actually, they can…..but not using the Pons and Fleischmann approach. The Pd/D2 co-deposition work by the SPAWAR labs works repeatably and has been replicated by other labs.

            “Almost 30 years after the initial report I would have expected the technique to be reliably used
            for something or other … making isotopes for instance if not for energy production.

            See recent work by Toyota and replicated by Mitsubishi (I may have that company order backwards).

            “But we see nothing like this. LENR researchers are still struggling to come up with the basics.”

            Yup, with no significant funding, it is hard to do sophisticated science. And yet work has gotten done..it has just taken longer. Meanwhile, “hot fusion” has sucked up billions of dollars and delivered nothing usable.

            “The field is infested with conspiracy theorists
            and fraud artists.

            Really?? Where are they?? When I read the papers and watch the videos of the ICCF meetings, I don’t see any evidence of such. Quite the opposite. The ONLY actual proven fraud ever committed in the field of LENR was done by the MIT physics department, and documented thoroughly by Eugene Mallove. Of course, I am sure you will dismiss that as “conspiracy theory”.

            “This is why I am suspicious of the whole field even
            though I keep an open mind about its fundamental reality.

            “Keep an open mind……” Nope…not that I can discern from your postings.

          • Bruce__H

            When I talked about any scientist in the field being able to replicate the Pons and Fleischman procedures and see their effect I mean scientists who have the necessary technical expertise to follow the protocol. When you say an expert electrochemist should be able to do it that is erxactly what I am saying.

            So I repeat …. 30 years on, where is the day-to-day replication of the basic phenomenon? Why aren’t people using the effect to go on and do other things like produce isotopes? It is because the basic phenomenon has not turned out to be solid enough to push forward with.

            Personally I think Rossi is a fraud. I could be wrong of course but if he is a genuine researcher then he is one whose every action over his whole working lifetime just happens to look like the activity of a con man. I’m amazed that people don’t get this but I guess that cognitive dissonance accounts for a lot.

          • Warthog

            “When you say an
            expert electrochemist should be able to do it that is erxactly what I am
            saying.

            Uh, no….that may be what you meant, but it is not what you “said”.

            “It is because the basic phenomenon has not turned out to be solid enough to push forward with”

            Again, no. That hasn’t happened because not enough fundamental research has been funded for it to happen.

            Compare the numbers of people working on and budgets spent on “hot fusion” to that spent on LENR. Thousands of people and billions of dollars to maybe a few dozen and probably well less than $50MM of research budget.

            “..if he is a researcher then he is one whose every action over his whole working lifetime just happens to look like the activity of a con man. I’m amazed that
            people don’t get this but I guess that cognitive dissonance accounts for a lot.

            LOL…and once again, every thought in your post is right out of the skeptopath script. I’ve taken the trouble to read the government research reports on that of his work that was federal grant funded, and there is NO evidence of fraud of any sort. And his conviction in Italy involved financial fraud….not scientific. When he emigrated to the US, he licensed his “waste to oil” tech to an American firm, who commercialized it, and which made him wealthy enough to privately fund all his original LENR work. Where’s the fraud??

          • Zephir

            The ignorance of cold fusion is not result of conspiracy but pluralistic ignorance. This is an emergent groupthink effect, not centrally planned or organized action.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance

            Instead of it, any recall of conspiracy should be considered as an appeal to ridicule falacy, the purpose of which is to cover the pluralistic ignorance of mainstream physics community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

          • Bruce__H

            I fail to understand how you picture all this. Particularly the pluralistic ignorance part. You think that the general disparagement of cold fusion in the mainstream scientific community reflects a situation where most individuals scientists privately believe in LENR but officially reject it? That sounds wrong to me.

            I think that most mainstream scientists believe that the evidence base for LENR is lacking. Simple as that.

          • Zephir

            Pluralistic ignorance is based on widespread vicious circle of belief, that it has no meaning to replicate the controversial phenomena, because no successful replications of it exists. If everyone acts in this way, then the replications of cold fusion will really never come, because nobody actually does the replications – which enforces this belief in the eyes of mainstream more and more.

          • Bruce__H

            OK. This makes some sense. The problem of when do you pursue something and when don’t you is always with us. If people see a lack of evidence for something they tend to focus their energies elsewhere. I think it is reasonable and not vicious.

            I still don’t see how the term “pluralistic ignorance” maps on what you have described. The definition of the term contained in the links you posted seems different from the way you are using it.

          • Zephir

            /* If people see a lack of evidence for something they tend to focus their energies elsewhere. I think it is reasonable and not vicious */

            The intensity and obstinacy in which the important findings are dismissed is proportional the amount of grant money in alternative competitive research. The cold fusion gets ignored the most, just because it competes the research of alternative methods of energy production/conversion/transport and storage (from hot fusion and coal plants over solar and wind plants to batteries). All these areas of research will be inflicted with occasional success of cold fusion, so that all researchers have good reason to ignore the cold fusion as a single man. I also consider this socioeconomic stance logical – but it’s also sorta embezzlement of public money dedicated for research, so I don’t consider it ethical.

            Because we – tax payers – don’t pay the researchers for the methods, which would provide theme most safe and reliable income – but for the development of most effective way of energy production and handling possible.

            It’s our money, not the money of researchers. Anyway, I don’t care if the ignorance of important findings is intentional, vicious or not – the problem is, it leads into slowing of progress and dissipation of resources utilized in research. So I’m explaining, how to spot the pluralistic ignorance and how to avoid it.

          • Zephir

            In this article I’m explaining the possible nature of dark photons.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/05/27/a-fifth-force-of-nature-discovered/#comments

            These dark photons can be understood as a bubbles of negative curvature of space-time. These bubbles exist in thin surface layer of vacuum around dense particles of matter just because the space-time gets curved there in positive way. This positive curvature opens the way for negative curvature artifacts, which cannot be otherwise observed inside the fully flat space-time (the massive bosons can mediate forces at limited distances only).

            In this sense the negativism of mainstream science against cold fusion and taboo of its research can be also understood as an emergent effect of huge amount of money, which the energetic research already attracts. This strong attractive force opens the way for strong repulsion of competitive research – analogy of dark matter effects or “fifth force”. We cannot observe it anywhere else, which brings an impression, that the scientific method performs well as a whole. Well, it does – it only fails in some particular boundary areas of research – unfortunately just these areas are these ones most important for our future.

          • Bruce__H

            I agree with your last sentence. I don’t understand most of the rest of your post though. I think you are saying that publicly funded researchers stick to what is mainstream and ignore alternatives. I can tell you, as a publicly funded researcher, that this is only partly true. A good chunk of research is devoted to extending mainstream results simply because this is productive. But a significant minority of research effort goes into more imaginative alternative explorations. That’s because it is fun and creative and because it is the sort of thing that ends in a publication in Science or Nature (two top general science publications) if it works out.

            So if you are trying to create a picture of scientists ignoring cold fusion because it conflicts with established funding for other energy sources you are going down the wrong path. Scientists are dubious about cold fusion because of the poor track record of empirical results. Simple.

            Edit: Since I wrote and posted this comment, Zephir has changed his post and so I therefore no longer agree with its last sentence. The sentence I agree with is “It’s our money, not the money of researchers”.

          • Zephir

            /* I think you are saying that publicly funded researchers stick to what is mainstream and ignore alternatives …. as a publicly funded researcher, that this is only partly true */

            True or not, it works quite reliably at the case of research of cold fusion, room temperature superconductivity, antigravity, overunity and negentropic phenomena, scalar waves, water clusters, psychic phenomena and many similar stuffs. You can find their research nowhere in peer-reviewed journals and the findings published in the rest are never attempted to replicate.

            /* But a significant minority of research effort goes into more imaginative alternative explorations */

            The mainstream is biased in both ways – both against research, which threats the mainstream theories, both for noncritical acceptation of ideas and findings, which could extend them and to bring new money into their funding in this way. The research of extradimensions, supersymmetry, string theory and quantum field theories, Higgs boson, gravitational waves and Big Bang cosmology belongs into positive biases (anti-taboos) of mainstream science.

            Ironically enough, in many areas of research the taboos overlap itself with anti-taboos conceptually: the same ideas and concepts are both promoted, both ignored at the same moment by mainstream – just under another names… 😉 I’m pretty well aware, that many phenomena and ideas dismissed with mainstream physics actually belong into scope of its interest with respect to a New Physics, Quantum gravity, Extradimensions or Multiverses.

            https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/4iqj8g/paralleluniverse_search_focuses_on_neutrons/d34s0q2

          • Zephir

            /* So if you are trying to create a picture of scientists ignoring cold
            fusion because it conflicts with established funding for other energy
            sources you are going down the wrong path. Scientists are dubious about
            cold fusion because of the poor track record of empirical results.
            Simple.*/

            Not at all, the pluralistic ignorance can be measured as the delay between first announcement of results and the first published attempt for their subsequent verification and after then my socioeconomical theory of pluralistic ignorance works perfectly.

            For example the cold fusion at palladium has been attempted to replicate by mainstream physics rather soon, whereas the nickel fusion still waits for its replication (despite both types of fusion were announced in nearly the same period).

            Why is it so? Because the cold fusion could bring money into physical community like any other new area of research and the palladium is sufficiently rare for not to have practical importance and adverse impact to another areas of research. But any progress in nickel based fusion would immediately threat the jobs in competing research, because nickel is acessible and cheap. The ignorance of scientific community is not so stupid or spontaneous as it looks at the first sight: it just continuously optimizes the ratio of its potential lost and profit.

          • Bruce__H

            I know some scientists who worked with palladium-deuterium systems around the time of Pons and Fleischman. They are nerds and geeks. They have no concept of or feeling for how palladium or nickel factors in to world economics. They just want to make world beating discovery. Just who do you think are making these loss profit decisions and how are they making them?

            I think you are naive about how research actually goes. Particularly basic research,

          • Zephir

            /* The definition of the term contained in the links you posted seems different from the way you are using it. */

            It’s just an application of definition of pluralistic ignorance. In social psychology, pluralistic ignorance is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, but incorrectly assume that most others accept it, and therefore go along with it.

            Analogously, many mainstream physicists are seriously interested about advances of cold fusion research and they’re watching it closely. But because they do believe, the cold fusion hasn’t been proven with other physicists, they’re follow the stance of the mainstream at public. And this stance is, the cold fusion doesn’t work.

            This is also described as “no one believes (that cold fusion isn’t really working) at private – but everyone thinks that everyone believes (that the cold fusion is really working).” In short, pluralistic ignorance is a bias about a social group, held by a social group itself (in this case the social group of mainstream physicists).

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance

          • Bruce__H

            Why do you think that many mainstream scientists secretly believe cold fusion is true?

          • Zephir

            Because they’re following its events closely at their blogs and elsewhere – even though they don’t penetrate the mainstream press. Usually such a research gets ignored instead.

          • Bruce__H

            They don’t believe it is true. They are just interested. Like me. I don’t accept that there is sufficient evidence that LENR as real but it is interesting and, after all, it is an empirical claim. Perhaps at some point someone will make a good case.

          • Zephir

            /* They are just interested. Like me */

            After then you don’t understand your own feelings: the people usually don’t give a sh*t about things, which they’re already convinced, they’re BS. Your interest about cold fusion (not to say about participation at the forum like this one) indicates, you’re still considering the possibility of cold fusion existence on background. This is just the controversy, which the pluralistic ignorance is all about.

          • Private Citizen

            Warthog: It is sort of hard to mistake a hole burned through a Transite lab bench top and into a concrete floor.

            That is definitely the kind of thing you would photograph and disperse widely, no? Links? I’ve not seen any photos but have heard the stores too. Not trying to be a contrarian, i’d love to see the photos and be put in place.

            Or only stories and no photos to keep that allure of the meltdown maybe not happening?

          • Warthog

            At the time, P & F were holding all data confidential, as this happened before their public comments. And I’m sure their own take at the time was the same as yours…”anecdotal data”, and that they should wait for their more detailed quantitative results.

            What we know with certainty is that multiple eyewitnesses saw the results. I too have wondered if there might have been photos, or even undeveloped film stashed away in some file cabinet at U. of Utah.

      • Private Citizen

        Will accept a repeatable recipe for “thermal runaway.” Care to cite one?

        • Zephir

          Actually most of first Fleischman-Pons attempts for cold fusion ended just with thermal runaway. The whole secret here is the sufficient saturation of palladium with deuterium – it may take weeks or months. The problem was, the ability of palladium to catalyze cold fusion ended by these events in most cases, so that many thermal runaways were actually silent, unnoticed and counted into “failures”.

      • Bruce__H

        The more I think about it the more I think you have brought up an interesting point. If high-COP LENR is real then where are the serious papers on runaway reactions?

        Science and Nature publish 4-5 articles every month on new materials with unexpected and interesting properties. A runaway reaction like this would definitely qualify. So where are the papers?

        • Zephir

          /* A runaway reaction like this would definitely qualify. So where are the papers? */

          First of all, these journals never publish experimental works without underlying theory, at second the accidental runaways don’t count as a reproducible science. At third, the cold fusion research is a taboo in Nature or Science from 1926 http://www.levity.com/alchemy/nelson2_6.html

          The most impressive test of the E-Cat that has been openly discussed was performed by Dr. Levi using water flow calorimetry. A reactor (after a very short initial heat up period in which a couple kilowatts of electrical power was applied) produced an average of fifteen kilowatts for eighteen hours. For a period of time, the reactor went out of control and the output spiked up to 130 kilowatts. I’ve been told by a source that the ENTIRE MODULE (not simply the internal reactor) was starting to glow from the heat.

          • Bruce__H

            First of all these journals do indeed publish experimental works without underlying theory. I can think of lots of papers like this (I just looked at last week’s Science and found 4 papers that are observational and without underlying theory). Why do you think they don’t?

            Second, runaway reactions do count as reproducible science if they are reproducible. That is my whole point.

            Third, the link you provide doesn’t say anything about cold fusion, a taboo, or the journals Nature or Science (except to cite them as publications in which papers did indeed appear). In general, prestigious mainline journals would rather publish a surprising empirical result than a paper about theory.

            Finally, is there a peer reviewed paper describing Dr Levi’s experiences? I hope so. I expect, however, that what you are citing is yet another second or third hand account of something that may or may not have happened sometime somewhere. Amazing tales! But not science..

    • Chapman

      I find it interesting how you can appear to be encouraging and supportive of the LENR field in general, while casually dropping little Rossi hate-bombs in the middle of your thoughts.

      You might want to stop and think about the fact that MFMP (who I happen to love and revere), and all the other replicators and labs out there are merely sniffing down Rossi’s trail of breadcrumbs. The researchers doing novel and decidedly NON-Rossi research are dead-ends barely able to initiate any kind of basic reaction TO study, like the failed Brillion (who only seems to have achieved ANYTHING after bailing on their previous research and began cloning/stealing Rossi’s E-Cat tech).

      It seems to me to be an incredibly self-contradictory approach to strongly imply Rossi has nothing, and is a fraud, and a danger to the future of LENR research itself, while placing your hopes for the future of humanity upon the shoulders of those who are simply trying to catch up to Rossi and repeat what he has already done.

      You are, in essence, saying “Columbus is a fool! Do not give him ships! The world is flat! He is a liar and a con artist. There is no other continent… and when WE get to AMERICA we will PROVE IT!!!”

      Sorry friend, but the argument is more than slightly on the moronic end of the intellectual scale.

      Also, in real life the Slow and Steady get left behind, and the tortious usually winds up in the soup kettle. I prefer to seek guidance from the mature wisdom and insights of those who have succeeded where I have only dreamed, rather than set my course according to catchphrases remembered from silly fables from my youth. They are just silly stories meant for silly minds.

      • Bruce__H

        I’ve seen lots of research come and go over the years. I’ve done lots of research (not LENR). I’ve had my research peer reviewed and been a peer reviewer for the papers of other researchers. I’ve received funding for my research and I’ve been on committees that dole out the grants. I say slow and steady not because I’ve read it in some book but because I have 40 years of experience seeing science done closeup and firsthand. Ideas arrive all of a sudden but then checking them out requires slow, careful work

        I think you have Rossi the wrong way around. You believe that people are copying Rossi but I think that Rossi saw people getting small scale and intermittent results, realized that the hopes and dreams of many for a better world are freighted onto the idea of cheap energy, and concluded that he could take advantage of the situation by claiming big results from the same basic techniques..

        • Chapman

          Now that was a statement that I can respect.

          I would only point out that I do not think Rossi is the worlds greatest genius, or the discoverer of all that is LENR. What I believe is that he made one really significant discovery by accident while performing the same testing of existing theories as many other researchers were doing. He wanted to avoid the danger and complexity of playing with Hydrogen Gas from tanks, so he sought an alternative. He chose LAH as a stable dry hydrogen source, solely for the purpose of being able to control the addition in a sealed reactor tube.

          The outrageous COP is due to reaction with the Lithium which was, for his initial purposes, a mere pollution introduced with the Hydrogen source.

          I am a fan, and a true believer, in science. Not men. But I also have no qualms giving credit where credit is due. The idea of using a dry Hydrogen source WAS genius, for it’s simplicity. The unexpected result is still HIS glory to claim.

          I give him credit not because I am a fanboy, but because I am NOT a putz.

    • kdk

      The various thermal runaways prove LENR beyond any doubt, and also its potential. It’s only a matter of finding the proper environmental variables which lead to the runaways.

  • Gerard McEk

    Frank, thank you for continuously thinking for new discussion issues to keep the LENR /Cold Fusion spirit a live, also when not much interesting news is coming up.
    Yes, I do believe that it is very possible that the ‘existing establishment’ will fiercely combat the new LENR energy source for a multitude of (selfish) reasons. The points you are mentioning are all important, but I believe that if someone or some group (like MFMP) finds a method that shows always LENR effects then that would be a turning point for science. Obviously if Rossi manages to put a product on the market it will certainly be important too, but I assume it will receive bad (and probably falsified) testimonies of many people (from ‘radiation’ to no COP and from ‘rubbish’ to ‘this man is a fraud’, etc., etc.), making it difficult to create the real huge market , he would think to create.

    • John C Evans

      The market will be created by a successful product despite falsified testimonies. If there’s a small slow moving market at the start, I’m all for it, It’ll be easier to obtain one of the first run devices. When people around the world show their neighbors copies of the electric bills and in some cases checks from the utility the market will catch fire and soon outpace production. Then the genie will never be put back in the bottle.

  • Gerard McEk

    Frank, thank you for continuously thinking for new discussion issues to keep the LENR /Cold Fusion spirit a live, also when not much interesting news is coming up.
    Yes, I do believe that it is very possible that the ‘existing establishment’ will fiercely combat the new LENR energy source for a multitude of (selfish) reasons. The points you are mentioning are all important, but I believe that if someone or some group (like MFMP) finds a method that shows always LENR effects then that would be a turning point for science. Obviously if Rossi manages to put a product on the market it will certainly be important too, but I assume it will receive bad (and probably falsified) testimonies of many people (from ‘radiation’ to no COP and from ‘rubbish’ to ‘this man is a fraud’, etc., etc.), making it difficult to create the real huge market , he would think to create.

    • John C Evans

      The market will be created by a successful product despite falsified testimonies. If there’s a small slow moving market at the start, I’m all for it, It’ll be easier to obtain one of the first run devices. When people around the world show their neighbors copies of the electric bills and in some cases checks from the utility the market will catch fire and soon outpace production. Then the genie will never be put back in the bottle.

  • PappyYokum

    If what Rossi says about the orders for more E-Cat plants is true, and these are built and deployed, Rossi will not be able to run them all himself. Having a trained team of people successfully running the plants independently of Rossi taking up residence in the containers will go a long way toward making the E-Cat credible.

  • Gerald

    Don’t forget what you are doing right now. Keep track of things happening. Back in 1989 we did not have internet for everyone, so things are more open and better archived for the future. Politics know and start acting on this, offcourse they can play the I didn’t know but that is much harder these days then 25 years ago.

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, the Internet makes a big difference between now and 1989. Still, the mainstream media is now on the Internet and has lots of influence there. If it’s not reported on some of the big news sites, many people don’t take it seriously.

    • Ted-Z

      Things can be pulled out of the internet quite effectively, too. If you watch what was just briefly mentioned and then NOT published (even if the event was significant), you would notice. For that, you have to use numerous sources and have a good memory, as some things are wiped out extremely well.

      • Such as information on the GEC GeNiE cold fusion ‘hybrid’ reactor. Even the ‘wayback machine’ has been wiped clean.

  • Gerald

    Don’t forget what you are doing right now. Keep track of things happening. Back in 1989 we did not have internet for everyone, so things are more open and better archived for the future. Politics know and start acting on this, offcourse they can play the I didn’t know but that is much harder these days then 25 years ago.

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, the Internet makes a big difference between now and 1989. Still, the mainstream media is now on the Internet and has lots of influence there. If it’s not reported on some of the big news sites, many people don’t take it seriously.

    • Ted-Z

      Things can be pulled out of the internet quite effectively, too. If you watch what was just briefly mentioned and then NOT published (even if the event was significant), you would notice. For that, you have to use numerous sources and have a good memory, as some things are wiped out extremely well.

      • Such as information on the GEC GeNiE cold fusion ‘hybrid’ reactor based on Dr Moisier-Boss’ work for SPAWAR. Even the original GEC web pages (formerly at http://globalenergycorporation.net/) stored on the ‘wayback machine’ archive have been wiped.

  • Sadly all data I have is that the only opponents to LENr is :
    – academic in love with theory and big physics budget
    – LENR community who is unable to work seriously, to coordinate, and to clean it’s basements of the rats.

    There is no comparison between F&P tragedy, with good calorimetry, correct ethic (some mistakes, but in trouble time), facing pathetic frauds and incompetence …
    And what we see with IH refusing to pay, damaging relationship with who pretend to make them bilionaires.

    The theory is not popular here, but my conviction is that IH is simply desperate not to be able to be a faithful licensee of Rossi, because they cannot make it work.

    I’m not sure of what Dewey and Jed claims (that the test is clownery), but I’m convinced that IH is unable to make an E-cat that works well-enough to be sold, even in a lab, at 100W scale.

    IH is losing bilions, and the theory that they just want to save 100Mn$ is laughable… if IH had enugh to build E-cat they would pay unlimited pizza, limousine, and escort girl to Rossi, just hoping he is in good mood to share more and invent more.

    I’ve always observed that strangely oil industry and globally industry have supported, like military, and Asian organizations, the research on LENR.

    No big oil conpiracy. the only conspiracy is egotic academic, hot fusion big money, and loose uncoordinated LENR community full of maverick ever battling for peanuts.

    • Stanny Demesmaker

      What’s your claim now, Alain? That the E-cat doesn’t work?

      • Ted-Z

        Somewhat out of topic, but of general relevance. Lithium 7, when bombarded with protons was identified as demonstrating a “fifth force” and some unusual elementary particles, apparently unknown in classical physics:
        ——————————————————————–
        LINK: http://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-think-they-might-have-just-detected-a-fifth-force-of-nature?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

        QUOTE: Evidence of this fifth force was spotted last year, when a team from the Hungarian Academy of Science reported that they’d fired protons at lithium-7, and in the fall out, had detected a brand new super-light boson that was only 34 times heavier than an electron.

        As exciting as that sounds, the paper was mostly overlooked, until a team in the US published their own analysis of the data at the end of last month, on pre-print site arXiv.

        The US team, led by Jonathan Feng from the University of California, Irvine, showed that the data didn’t conflict with previous experiments, and calculated that the new boson could indeed be carrying a fifth fundamental force – which is when the science world started to get interested.

        That paper hasn’t been peer-reviewed as yet, so we can’t get too excited, but it was uploaded so that the other physicists could scrutinise the results and add their own findings, which is what’s happening now.

        As Nature magazine reports, researchers around the world are racing to conduct follow-up tests to verify the Hungarian discovery, and we can expect results within around a year.

        But if you’re anything like me, you’re probably wondering, what does a super-light boson have to do with a new force of nature?

        This isn’t the first time researchers have claimed to detect a fifth force (there’s even a Wikipedia page for fifth force possibilities), but the search has really heated up over the past decade. Many scientists think there might be a particle out there called a ‘dark photon’, which could carry a new force that would explain dark matter – that invisible substance that makes up more than 80 percent of the Universe’s mass.

        That’s what the Hungarian team, led by physicist Attila Krasznahorkay, were looking for. To do that, they fired protons at thin targets of lithium-7, a collision that created unstable beryllium-8 nuclei, which then decayed into pairs of electrons and positrons.

        “According to the standard model, physicists should see that the number of observed pairs drops as the angle separating the trajectory of the electron and positron increases,” Edwin Cartlidge writes for Nature.

        But that wasn’t what the team saw – at about 140 degrees, the number of these pairs jumped, creating a little bump before dropping off again at higher angles.

        This ‘bump’ was evidence of a new particle, according to Krasznahorkay and his team. They calculated that the mass of this new particle would be around 17 megaelectronvolts, which isn’t what was expected for the ‘dark photon’, but could be evidence of something else entirely.

        “We are very confident about our experimental results,” Krasznahorkay told Nature. He says that the chance of this bump being an anomaly is around 1 in 200 billion (but let’s keep in mind that no other team has confirmed this as yet.)

        The analysis by Feng’s team in the US didn’t involve a repeat of the experiment, but simply used calculations to verify that, theoretically at least, the proposed super-light boson Krasznahorkay detected could be capable of carrying a new fundamental force.
        ————————————————————————————————-
        This might be pointing to a potential explanation of the LENR effect (at least the lithium-related reactions).
        Perhaps some nuclear physicists from the list could comment on this.

      • Dr. Mike

        I certainly agree with Frank that all of his 7 points will enhance LENR’s acceptance in the scientific community. However, I believe that there already is a recipe for LENR replication- the issued Rossi patent on the “low-temperature” e-cat. My guess is that the replication problems of the “hot cat” are the result of Rossi withholding key information on this device that won’t become public knowledge until just before he applies for an international patent on the “hot-cat”. (This assumes that the “hot-cat” works as Rossi claims, which was not clearly demonstrated by the results of the Lugano report.)
        Everyone assumed that the Lugano reactor was empty when Rossi loaded the “fuel” into it. Perhaps the reactor was pre-loaded with some amount of Ni62? This would account for the tiny bit of “ash” that was removed at the end of the test being nearly 100% Ni62, whereas converting all of the Ni to Ni62 during the 30 day operation of the reactor can not be explained by the amount of hydrogen available in the amount of AlLiH4 that was in the loaded “fuel”. Also, there is no information in the Lugano report that claims the input to the Lugano reactor was checked by an oscilloscope. Perhaps there was an additional high frequency waveform applied to the reactor?

        • Billy Jackson

          I try my best not to get into conspiracy theories. I don’t always succeed. So i will try to limit myself here so you don’t get the ravings of conjecture based on my own biases. 🙂

          Like many of you, I have been here for years watching the story unfold. We waited nearly a year for the 1MW plant results and the culmination of the 3rd party results from that year long test. It was with shock and ice water bitterness that i opened http://www.ecatworld.com and read that Rossi was suing IH. As I continued to read and pick up the occasional tidbits here and there.. i honestly felt like I had been kicked in the stomach. I do not think i am alone in this.

          Now time has passed and i have cooled down, letting the more analytical nature take over when passion and anger finally subsided. It leaves me with unfortunately with even more questions. But i think pertinent ones that cut to the core of the issue.

          1. If IH was unable to validate the e-cat. why did they build one without Rossi’s involvement claim a COP of 11+ .. and then file their own patent.

          2. Why wait till the final days to dispute the technology? After a year of selling its advantages to investors? what is behind the reason for this? surely its not money. as IH is more than capable of paying the amount due.

          The evidence as presented for the first causes you to be biased to the answer of the 2nd issue.

          what follows is nothing more than pure conjecture and just an opinion.

          I think Rossi 1-uped himself. i think that he gave all the information that IH needed to make the e-cat and presented them with a working product. all 3 reports from the individuals representing Leonardo, IH, and an Independent all fell close to each other in their readings.. but something else was going on behind the scenes.. the 1 MW works and its a great product.. but in his time working on the 1MW plant.. Rossi made an even better product. (the quark) one that’s not covered by a contract or is murky at best on who gets to use that product.

          No one wants to go to market with an inferior product when you have something better already close to production. Is this really about money and validity or is this a battle about the potential control of product markets for the e-cats future?

          • Gerard McEk

            Rossi has said more than once that the Hot Cat X or the mini version the QuarkX would belong to the license contract. So I do not believe that your theory is right.

          • Billy Jackson

            it very well may not be. 🙂

          • f sedei

            Your conjecture may be more accurate than you believe. A” bird in the bush” theory may be appropriate in this situation. Rossi wants the promised $89M, and he strongly believes he has the goods to back his belief. His confidence allowed him to file the law suit against IH.. Rossi must further have confidence that he surely has others (investors and countries) of considerable means who may be anxious to take up the supportive Ecat cause if the legal route fails him. I believe Andre Rossi will prevail.

      • my claim is that Rossi did not share what he have to with IH.

        that E-cat is void is only possible, but not sure at all…

        anyway all is open.

        My heart stop bleeding when I remember of others serious guy on the subject, like Brillouin, Nichenergy and lenuco.

    • US_Citizen71

      I think you may be on the right track, but I do not think that IH is unable to reproduce the effect or build working reactors. I think they are trying to get out of the deal because in the end the IP will not hold up as a patent because of prior art. It appears the core reaction is Li7 + p > 2 He4 + energy. This ‘splitting the atom’ reaction was tested to a high degree after Walton and Cockcroft discovered it. It is my belief that IH has stumbled upon prior work from soon after Walton and Cockcroft’s announcement that may kill the patent. Without a monopoly IH just isn’t interested.

      • Rossi Fan

        1. Recipe: I agree.

        2. Company: I see problems with FDA approval.

        3. Peer review: Publications and trade organizations cater to their industries. The industries do not want to see a game changer which puts them out of business.

        4. Fabio: The fact that this report involves one and only one person completely corrupts it and renders it useless.

        5. Andrea Rossi demo: He has already indicated that a) he gave away all secrets to IH/Chinese/Brillo and b) he will not demo because he is afraid of giving away secrets. As far as Rossi goes this option is off the table. There’s incognito anonymous ME262 who claims he is afraid for his safety or something to that effect. That leaves the Chinese and Russians: good luck!

        6. E-Cat customer: This is not forthcoming. Don’t hold your breath.

        7. Large company: Large companies and institutions are not very innovative. They prefer to buy out a small company once the technology is proven (which means #2).

        • Gerard McEk

          I still believe that AR should have his Ecat or QuarkX tested by e.g. MFMP. Just the COP will do, so no real secrets will need to be revealed. I am sure that the whole LENR community would support that with all means, especially in case IH wants to discredit LENR/CF as a whole (see http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/).

        • bachcole

          I know that the FDA is the scum-of-the-Earth, but what does the Food and Drug Administration have to do with LENR?

          • Rossi Fan

            Here you go:

            http://tinyurl.com/zkwx2j8

            In a nutshell:

            The United States (U.S.) Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) Center for
            Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) is responsible for regulating
            radiation-emitting electronic products.

            You can use and produce a product that emits radiation all you want. Like IH/Leonardo did at JM. You just cannot sell a product without FDA approval.

            FDA approval for new stuff that does not exist on the market takes a long time and costs several million dollars. There is an industry built around the FDA that prepares the paperwork and does the certifications.

            Lead shielding cannot be used as an excuse to avoid this process. So don’t go there.

            From what I understand LENR needs a short blast of radiation to get things started. Even a tiny amount of radiation equivalent to a dental x-ray and Rossi is caught in FDA’s web.

          • Jouni Tuomela

            This research was done some 100 years ago, from F&P is only a quarter of that.
            “In other words we have an input energy of 103 cal/gram molecule and an output energy of 90.000 cal/gram molecule. In conventional science this seems to be violating the law of conservation of energy. Langmuir explained this (however, not very convincingly) by the heat being carried forward from the arc to the metal surface. One area which certainly deserves the attention of modern science, is the replication of Langmuirs experiments using high-tech measurement equipment.”

            http://www.chavascience.com/index.php/en/hydrogen/langmuir-excess-energy-from-hydrogen

            Perhaps this should be researched first, is it really happening?

          • help_lenr

            Looks like you believe that USA is the only center of science and technology. There are many countries which think and work without paying too much attention to what american institutes say about quality of products, eg: Russia, China, Japan, Korea. They have their own markets to start with; after this start phase successfull products will be sold fast to countries which are not controlled by global coorporations.

            If USA will be foolish enough to stop LENR applications it will be punished hard because USA will be delayed in the race for LENR energy and may lose it’s dominance in commercial activity and weapon industry. USA was arrogant in their space programs in 1950 or so until Russia sent the Sputnik satellite, USA needed a huge effort to recover (that is why president kennedy started the FLY TO MOON program). This time a recovering effort might not be enough because the world changed and there are now strong industries outside USA.

          • Warthog

            I think you may be reading the FDA’s authority a bit too broadly. I think what they have authority over is things like x-ray or other nuclear diagnostic and medical treatment equipment (gamma knife, cancer irradiation devices).

            Devices such as Rossi’s would more likely be under the auspices of the DOE.

          • sam

            This also will keep it from drifting into
            obscurity.
            Frank Acland
            May 26, 2016 at 8:52 AM
            Dear Andrea,

            Please forgive me for being morbid, but this is a question that any inventor I think must consider — if you were to die today, what would the fate of the E-Cat QuarkX be?

            Many thanks,

            Frank Acland

            Andrea Rossi
            May 26, 2016 at 10:18 AM
            Frank Acland:
            The problem has been duly assessed. My work would be perfectly continued without me.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.

    • Alain Samoun

      “hot fusion big money”
      I will add “Uranium fission big money” Especially in France.

    • Bob

      I agree.
      No conspiracy.
      No hired shills or paid bloggers.
      .
      Even if a company did want to squash LENR / CF, they do not need to pay people to blog. The CF community is so fragmented they are doing itself all the harm needed!
      .
      Look at this site versus Jed Rothwell! Both are PRO LENR/CF. Many here now call Mr. Rothwell a paid thug. Crazy, Inept! He in return, uses abrasive language when describing his views on people, thus creating a message that many see as a personal attack. “After all, a personal attack or Rossi is a personal attack on me!” And all of this only on hearsay and no firm fact!
      .
      IH has plenty of money. The theory they cannot pay the 89 million or do not “Want to pay” because they can steal the IP is silly in my opinion. Their track record nor logic supports this.
      .
      No, the LENR community is it’s own worse enemy, including Rossi!.
      .
      #1 is what MFMP is attempting to do. I applaud them for it and have given some monetary support. (Not a huge amount, but hopefully it adds up)
      #2 will probably NOT help as so far, we have seen NDA’s tied to everything. We have companies selling perpetual magnet motor generators now from South Africa and it has not changed anything. Of course they may or may not work. The point is that someone selling something does not prove anything. If sales become wide spread and of large quantities, then that would tend to indicated the technology is already accepted.
      #3 would again help change academia, but I personally do not think this option will happen until other events take place. Look at the British press release posted some weeks back that stated “we will wait and see…” (paraphrased) Already NASA and SPARWAR has done some research, but it apparently has not went far nor is current.
      #4 This will have absolutely NO impact what so ever. Look at Lugano. Look at any of the multitude of very good tests already done by others over the years. There is plenty of tests showing significant LENR effect from many unrelated groups. It has done nothing to change the overall view of CF. Penon already has done a test on the eCat and published the results. It changed nothing. This test will be no different in my opinion.
      #5 This will not happen. He has had 5 years to do so and has not done it. What evidence is there that this will change? His next “announced test” is with a secret customer, secret location, etc. as usual. If he did it, it might help, but it would have to be done in such a way, that I believe he would not allow the test in fear of his IP being stolen. Real or not.
      #6 This would not change anything most likely. People would then start calling the customer frauds and conspirators, just like the pathoskeps called IH / Darden until the lawsuit came up. Energy bills can be rigged or made up. A major company is unlikely to come forward and state “Yes, we are buying these and it works and here is the proof behind it” Big corporations do not work that way. Small companies would have no impact.
      #7 If GE gave formal PR statements, showed prototypes and actually constructed reactors, it might have some impact. However in the last year, we have seen press releases of Hot Fusion reactors the size of cargo containers being available by 2018. Other companies making bold claims within the next 10 years. Nobody is getting too excited about these announcements. So I am not sure what impact it would really have.
      All said then, my opinion is that #1 would have the most impact. Worldwide, completely unrelated groups could then replicate the effect. Then products would start being made and sold in a wide variety of applications by a variety of companies. Academia could prove to themselves because they will not listen to anyone else. And with competition, the products would roll out fast, furious and prices drop. It has always been that way.
      .

      • kdk

        IMHO, the various thermal runaways from people like Szpak and P&F themselves show beyond any doubt that it’s real. There is no way to boil off a bunch of water overnight with small electrodes with limited input energy and melt through containers that doesn’t involve a revolutionary energy technology. Combined with their characters, there is no doubt that something unorthodox happened. The runaways were after the addition of magnetic fluctuations, in Szpak’s case anyway.

        Rossi only has to provide a compelling demonstration to the people he is now approaching and our opinions won’t affect the result after that. Hopefully, they are more serious than IH, and can help secure a patent so this thing doesn’t get sat on by people who potentially have trillions of dollars to lose.

    • Fulvio Fabiani disagrees with you about whether it worked or not. He was in the crate for a year and an employee of IH at the time.

      You calling him a liar?

  • Sadly all data I have is that the only opponents to LENr is :
    – academic in love with theory and big physics budget
    – LENR community who is unable to work seriously, to coordinate, and to clean it’s basements of the rats.

    There is no comparison between F&P tragedy, with good calorimetry, correct ethic (some mistakes, but in trouble time), facing pathetic frauds and incompetence …
    And what we see with IH refusing to pay, damaging relationship with who pretend to make them bilionaires.

    The theory is not popular here, but my conviction is that IH is simply desperate not to be able to be a faithful licensee of Rossi, because they cannot make it work.

    I’m not sure of what Dewey and Jed claims (that the test is clownery), but I’m convinced that IH is unable to make an E-cat that works well-enough to be sold, even in a lab, at 100W scale.

    IH is losing bilions, and the theory that they just want to save 100Mn$ is laughable… if IH had enugh to build E-cat they would pay unlimited pizza, limousine, and escort girl to Rossi, just hoping he is in good mood to share more and invent more.

    I’ve always observed that strangely oil industry and globally industry have supported, like military, and Asian organizations, the research on LENR.

    No big oil conpiracy. the only conspiracy is egotic academic, hot fusion big money, and loose uncoordinated LENR community full of maverick ever battling for peanuts.

    • Stanny Demesmaker

      What’s your claim now, Alain? That the E-cat doesn’t work?

      • my claim is that Rossi did not share what he have to with IH.

        that E-cat is void is only possible, but not sure at all…

        anyway all is open.

        My heart stop bleeding when I remember of others serious guy on the subject, like Brillouin, Nichenergy and lenuco.

    • US_Citizen71

      I think you may be on the right track, but I do not think that IH is unable to reproduce the effect or build working reactors. I think they are trying to get out of the deal because in the end the IP will not hold up as a patent because of prior art. It appears the core reaction is Li7 + p > 2 He4 + energy. This ‘splitting the atom’ reaction was tested to a high degree after Walton and Cockcroft discovered it. It is my belief that IH has stumbled upon prior work from soon after Walton and Cockcroft’s announcement that may kill the patent. Without a monopoly IH just isn’t interested.

      • Chapman

        THANK GOD!!!

        At least SOMEONE out there is following the science, rather than just the show!

        You know, the saddest thing about all this is that in thirty years everyone will be looking back and wondering what all the fuss was about, given that the science was so obvious, well documented, and of relatively old age!

      • Chapman

        I also have to agree with you 100% regarding the long-term value of the patent.

        Rossi may be able to hold on to the rights for his specific blend of LAH and elemental Lithium as a fuel recipe, and there may be one or two unique configurations in his reactor design, but neither element provides a monopoly on the reaction itself, which has been well published and documented. In no time we will have dozens of alternative hydrogen supplements that are just as effective, and possibly less dangerous, than LAH and there is no limit to the variations in the physical form factor of the reactor vessel itself.

        The patent gives him a head start, little more. The goal is to secure market share while his advantage exists.

    • Alain Samoun

      “hot fusion big money”
      I will add “Uranium fission big money” Especially in France.

    • Bob

      I agree.
      No conspiracy.
      No hired shills or paid bloggers.
      .
      Even if a company did want to squash LENR / CF, they do not need to pay people to blog. The CF community is so fragmented they are doing itself all the harm needed!
      .
      Look at this site versus Jed Rothwell! Both are PRO LENR/CF. Many here now call Mr. Rothwell a paid thug. Crazy, Inept! He in return, uses abrasive language when describing his views on people, thus creating a message that many see as a personal attack. “After all, a personal attack or Rossi is a personal attack on me!” And all of this only on hearsay and no firm fact!
      .
      IH has plenty of money. The theory they cannot pay the 89 million or do not “Want to pay” because they can steal the IP is silly in my opinion. Their track record nor logic supports this.
      .
      No, the LENR community is it’s own worse enemy, including Rossi!.
      .
      #1 is what MFMP is attempting to do. I applaud them for it and have given some monetary support. (Not a huge amount, but hopefully it adds up)
      #2 will probably NOT help as so far, we have seen NDA’s tied to everything. We have companies selling perpetual magnet motor generators now from South Africa and it has not changed anything. Of course they may or may not work. The point is that someone selling something does not prove anything. If sales become wide spread and of large quantities, then that would tend to indicated the technology is already accepted.
      #3 would again help change academia, but I personally do not think this option will happen until other events take place. Look at the British press release posted some weeks back that stated “we will wait and see…” (paraphrased) Already NASA and SPARWAR has done some research, but it apparently has not went far nor is current.
      #4 This will have absolutely NO impact what so ever. Look at Lugano. Look at any of the multitude of very good tests already done by others over the years. There is plenty of tests showing significant LENR effect from many unrelated groups. It has done nothing to change the overall view of CF. Penon already has done a test on the eCat and published the results. It changed nothing. This test will be no different in my opinion.
      #5 This will not happen. He has had 5 years to do so and has not done it. What evidence is there that this will change? His next “announced test” is with a secret customer, secret location, etc. as usual. If he did it, it might help, but it would have to be done in such a way, that I believe he would not allow the test in fear of his IP being stolen. Real or not.
      #6 This would not change anything most likely. People would then start calling the customer frauds and conspirators, just like the pathoskeps called IH / Darden until the lawsuit came up. Energy bills can be rigged or made up. A major company is unlikely to come forward and state “Yes, we are buying these and it works and here is the proof behind it” Big corporations do not work that way. Small companies would have no impact.
      #7 If GE gave formal PR statements, showed prototypes and actually constructed reactors, it might have some impact. However in the last year, we have seen press releases of Hot Fusion reactors the size of cargo containers being available by 2018. Other companies making bold claims within the next 10 years. Nobody is getting too excited about these announcements. So I am not sure what impact it would really have.
      All said then, my opinion is that #1 would have the most impact. Worldwide, completely unrelated groups could then replicate the effect. Then products would start being made and sold in a wide variety of applications by a variety of companies. Academia could prove to themselves because they will not listen to anyone else. And with competition, the products would roll out fast, furious and prices drop. It has always been that way.
      .

      • Dave

        Yep – what he said 🙂

    • Fulvio Fabiani disagrees with you about whether it worked or not. He was in the crate for a year and an employee of IH at the time.

      You calling him a liar?

  • sam

    Number 2 and 6 would work.

  • sam

    Number 2 and 6 would work.

  • Bob K

    I still have a hard time believing that Fulvio Fabiani was lying in that interview.

    • Me too. I have been talking to him again, and that has strengthened my impression.

      • pg

        What did he tell you?

        • He didn’t tell me many new things, and what he told me I cannot report yet. However, there’s nothing in what he says that changes what he told me in the interview. He’s not backing off.
          He is not working for Rossi, neither for IH. As far as I understand he will not work for any of them in the near future.

          • For reference for passers-by:
            https://animpossibleinvention.com/2015/11/25/rossis-engineer-i-have-seen-things-you-people-wouldnt-believe/

            The Lugano ash limited possibilities to E-Cat nuclear or Rossi fraud.

            Similarly this interview (and now subsequent confirmation!) can not be reasonably interpreted any way except E-Cat works or Fabiani fraud.

            The pending ERV report, if it truly shows COP ~50 as we’re led to believe by legal documents filed by Rossi, would also limit reasonable possibilities to E-Cat works or Penon fraud.

          • Can you elaborate on the “yet?” Things that can’t come out until the trial starts? Some other criteria?

          • Don’t know, but not any time soon at least. And I repeat, he didn’t add much since he is still bound by NDAs.

          • OK, so a keep it to yourself until he says otherwise. Thanks.

          • Curious… did this come up at any time with FF: “Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.”

            So far all we have is Rossi’s word to you about that… that I know of. Any chance FF has corroborated that (ever)?

          • Nope.

          • Thanks (and bummer). One last meta question if you’re game. As a reporter and someone privy to inside information that you can’t disclose for various reasons (such as these new tidbits from FF),,,

            Do you find that non-public information you have bolsters the case for the E-Cat working or damages it? Scale of -100 (destroys it) to +100 (proves it).

          • 😉 Don’t like numbers for statistics that you cannot calculate.
            However, talking to Fabiani gives me more reasons to think that the E-Cat works. Which is no proof of course.

          • sam

            Best news I have heard in a while
            regarding the Ecat.
            F.F seems like the person who
            could break this thing wide open.

      • So many questions…

        Is FF still employed by IH? If not what’s he doing?

        Does he maintain contact with Rossi?

        I take it by your statement that he stands by his interview with you and does not believe he was duped.

        Did he opine on the bad measurement + no COP versus ironclad measurements + 50 COP situation?

        Does he takes sides in the legal action? Does he expect to be deposed?

  • Bob K

    I still have a hard time believing that Fulvio Fabiani was lying in that interview.

    • Me too. I have been talking to him again, and that has strengthened my impression.

      • pg

        What did he tell you?

        • He didn’t tell me many new things, and what he told me I cannot report yet. However, there’s nothing in what he says that changes what he told me in the interview. He’s not backing off.
          He is not working for Rossi, neither for IH. As far as I understand he will not work for any of them in the near future.

          • For reference for passers-by:
            https://animpossibleinvention.com/2015/11/25/rossis-engineer-i-have-seen-things-you-people-wouldnt-believe/

            The Lugano ash limited possibilities to E-Cat nuclear or Rossi fraud.

            Similarly this interview (and now subsequent confirmation!) can not be reasonably interpreted any way except E-Cat works or Fabiani fraud.

            The pending ERV report, if it truly shows COP ~50 as we’re led to believe by legal documents filed by Rossi, would also limit reasonable possibilities to E-Cat works or Penon fraud.

          • Can you elaborate on the “yet?” Things that can’t come out until the trial starts? Some other criteria?

          • Don’t know, but not any time soon at least. And I repeat, he didn’t add much since he is still bound by NDAs.

          • OK, so a keep it to yourself until he says otherwise. Thanks.

          • Bob

            Can you reveal if the NDA’s were with Rossi or IH? I suppose the “secret customer” could be also, but I highly doubt that.
            .
            It would give some insights. I have come to the conclusion that all the NDA’s over the years are beginning to look more like Rossi’s requirements more that customers and IH. But I certainly could be wrong. I would be interesting to know and I cannot see how revealing who the NDA is with could be an issue with the NDA! :0

          • Not sure, but it could be both.

          • Curious… did this come up at any time with FF: “Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.”

            So far all we have is Rossi’s word to you about that… that I know of. Any chance FF has corroborated that (ever)?

          • Nope.

          • Thanks (and bummer). One last meta question if you’re game. As a reporter and someone privy to inside information that you can’t disclose for various reasons (such as these new tidbits from FF),,,

            Do you find that non-public information you have bolsters the case for the E-Cat working or damages it? Scale of -100 (destroys it) to +100 (proves it).

          • 😉 Don’t like numbers for statistics that you cannot calculate.
            However, talking to Fabiani gives me more reasons to think that the E-Cat works. Which is no proof of course.

          • Thank you Mats. It’s nice to know he’s not backing off from his remarks made in the interview with you last year.

            I’d just like to point out that it is more than fine to break an NDA if fraud is involved. In fact the NDA signer is probably obligated to break his/her NDA if they discover fraud is at play.

            So if his NDA is with Rossi as well as IH, either FF is in on the fraud or he doesn’t think there is any fraud at LC???

          • Leaving aside the completely unfounded suggestion of fraud on Fabiani’s part, his continued compliance with NDAs presumably means that he has no reason to suspect fraud on the part of either of his employers, at least within his professional capacity. Exactly the same goes for Penon, who is presumably also subject to NDAs with both sponsoring parties.

          • sam

            Best news I have heard in a while
            regarding the Ecat.
            F.F seems like the person who
            could break this thing wide open.

      • So many questions…

        Is FF still employed by IH? If not what’s he doing?

        Does he maintain contact with Rossi?

        I take it by your statement that he stands by his interview with you and does not believe he was duped.

        Did he opine on the bad measurement + no COP versus ironclad measurements + 50 COP situation?

        Does he takes sides in the legal action? Does he expect to be deposed?

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Good article Frank. I would just add one more to your list. We need more impartial individual reporters like Mats Lewan interested in the LENR story who are connected to major news outlets. It is my opinion this is something this group could change, contacting local reporters, making them aware of the very interesting LENR story. Just like any organization good ideas, in this case ideas for a good story, come from the grunts in the field.

  • Ted-Z

    Somewhat out of topic, but of general relevance. Lithium 7, when bombarded with protons was identified as demonstrating a “fifth force” and some unusual elementary particles, apparently unknown in classical physics:
    ——————————————————————–
    LINK: http://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-think-they-might-have-just-detected-a-fifth-force-of-nature?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

    QUOTE: Evidence of this fifth force was spotted last year, when a team from the Hungarian Academy of Science reported that they’d fired protons at lithium-7, and in the fall out, had detected a brand new super-light boson that was only 34 times heavier than an electron.

    As exciting as that sounds, the paper was mostly overlooked, until a team in the US published their own analysis of the data at the end of last month, on pre-print site arXiv.

    The US team, led by Jonathan Feng from the University of California, Irvine, showed that the data didn’t conflict with previous experiments, and calculated that the new boson could indeed be carrying a fifth fundamental force – which is when the science world started to get interested.

    That paper hasn’t been peer-reviewed as yet, so we can’t get too excited, but it was uploaded so that the other physicists could scrutinise the results and add their own findings, which is what’s happening now.

    As Nature magazine reports, researchers around the world are racing to conduct follow-up tests to verify the Hungarian discovery, and we can expect results within around a year.

    But if you’re anything like me, you’re probably wondering, what does a super-light boson have to do with a new force of nature?

    This isn’t the first time researchers have claimed to detect a fifth force (there’s even a Wikipedia page for fifth force possibilities), but the search has really heated up over the past decade. Many scientists think there might be a particle out there called a ‘dark photon’, which could carry a new force that would explain dark matter – that invisible substance that makes up more than 80 percent of the Universe’s mass.

    That’s what the Hungarian team, led by physicist Attila Krasznahorkay, were looking for. To do that, they fired protons at thin targets of lithium-7, a collision that created unstable beryllium-8 nuclei, which then decayed into pairs of electrons and positrons.

    “According to the standard model, physicists should see that the number of observed pairs drops as the angle separating the trajectory of the electron and positron increases,” Edwin Cartlidge writes for Nature.

    But that wasn’t what the team saw – at about 140 degrees, the number of these pairs jumped, creating a little bump before dropping off again at higher angles.

    This ‘bump’ was evidence of a new particle, according to Krasznahorkay and his team. They calculated that the mass of this new particle would be around 17 megaelectronvolts, which isn’t what was expected for the ‘dark photon’, but could be evidence of something else entirely.

    “We are very confident about our experimental results,” Krasznahorkay told Nature. He says that the chance of this bump being an anomaly is around 1 in 200 billion (but let’s keep in mind that no other team has confirmed this as yet.)

    The analysis by Feng’s team in the US didn’t involve a repeat of the experiment, but simply used calculations to verify that, theoretically at least, the proposed super-light boson Krasznahorkay detected could be capable of carrying a new fundamental force.
    ————————————————————————————————-
    This might be pointing to a potential explanation of the LENR effect (at least the lithium-related reactions).
    Perhaps some nuclear physicists from the list could comment on this.

  • Dr. Mike

    I certainly agree with Frank that all of his 7 points will enhance LENR’s acceptance in the scientific community. However, I believe that there already is a recipe for LENR replication- the issued Rossi patent on the “low-temperature” e-cat. My guess is that the replication problems of the “hot cat” are the result of Rossi withholding key information on this device that won’t become public knowledge until just before he applies for an international patent on the “hot-cat”. (This assumes that the “hot-cat” works as Rossi claims, which was not clearly demonstrated by the results of the Lugano report.)
    Everyone assumed that the Lugano reactor was empty when Rossi loaded the “fuel” into it. Perhaps the reactor was pre-loaded with some amount of Ni62? This would account for the tiny bit of “ash” that was removed at the end of the test being nearly 100% Ni62, whereas converting all of the Ni to Ni62 during the 30 day operation of the reactor can not be explained by the amount of hydrogen available in the amount of AlLiH4 that was in the loaded “fuel”. Also, there is no information in the Lugano report that claims the input to the Lugano reactor was checked by an oscilloscope. Perhaps there was an additional high frequency waveform applied to the reactor?

  • Thomas Baccei

    The question to consider is whether the non-acceptance of LENR was / is the result of a concerted effort to block or delay such acceptance, or merely the sad result of the fact that the reaction itself requires very subtle and specific conditions. Since P&F all of the public research efforts have been under funded, run with insufficient rigor to succeed or are the property of selfish and foolish individuals.

    Two factors would support the notion that LENR has been actively stifled. The first is the military implications. The second is the effect on the global economy. Both governments and vast corporations would have quickly seen that an unrestricted release of LENR onto the world stage would be immensely threatening and dangerous. There is evidence to support this possibility in a circumstantial way. First is the long term dis-information campaign waged by various and infamous individuals: Popeye, Mary Yugo etc., whose collected output is staggering in its volume and persuasiveness. Another bit of evidence is the tentative revelations by (mostly) SPAWAR and Navel development of success in LENR research. Like the Sherlock Holmes “dog in the night”, their absence after a promising initial openness is quite notable.

    There does seem to be a signal in all the LENR noise, but one conclusion from the work (honest and serious) done by MFMP is that it will take a far better funded project to change this field from speculation to engineering.

    My instincts tell me that AR is a self deluded clown (sorry, I really do not want to rain on anybodies parade here) and further that ME356 and several other claimants are simply wanabies. The arguments by all of them against publishing are simply not credible. Could be that they have been managed by the conspiracy (if it exists) – there are “offers” that are hard to turn down.

    How can anyone even imagine that there is not a huge incentive for any number of groups to “spy” on Rossi et. al.? If LENR is real, and our government had not done a thorough job of vetting I would suggest they would be guilty of massive incompetence, Does this community really believe that only AR and IH know how these demonstrations went?

    The above mentioned comings out for LENR will only happen as supervised by powers so much greater than Rossi and MFMP. They will NOT bury it forever, but they WILL orchestrate its release, acceptance and use and there is nothing anyone can do to change that.

    Just sayin’.

    • Billy Jackson

      I understand why you are saying what you are.. but at the same time. for Rossi to be self deluded would require a huge conspiracy of complicity along with a massive ability to ignore evidence. I just don’t buy it.. sorry

      They have presented evidence along with numbers and reports by different people.. what they get back is accusations and not one ounce of proof that their reports are false or in error.. all you get is.. but it cant be true!

      • I woudl have said the same, but it seems simply many people have tolerated too much, interpreting it with too much optimism.
        It happened also with Madoff who was spotted as having incredible return, while people estimated he was just insider trading, coherent with his profile…

        With rossi we all know he is a bit emotional, sometime irrational, exageratting, unrespectful of precisions…

        for example Fabiani said that he could not know anything about the power… protecting trade secret or…

        similarly IH reported to Dewey who said it recently on LENR-Forum, that IH rationally asked to test the 250kW E-cat themselves, which made Rossi balistic.
        Dewey explains that it raised much concern by IH…

        Similar problems were observed with Defkalion, when they refused some measurements for strange reason.
        Nelson reported problems with phase change and strange excuses, that he accepted, proposing later a better test that was not accepted.

        Rossi is also reported to have bashed any proposal of good methodology by old ape of LENR (like McKubre…).

        Krivit , being a lover of conspiracy theories, did not take it with kindness when Rossi behaved a strange way… I’m now afraid he had the good intuition.

        Individually I’m the first to take it easy… but if you add… you get concerned.

        we have to wait for the position on IH, but IH is not the kind to chat on blogs.

        • Billy Jackson

          Balancing optimism and realism is a tight rope to walk.. i try. probably 50/50 at best 🙂

          I am not saying Rossi is without his faults, Just that he’s not the sole voice anymore as we have the report from the 32 day test, multiple witnesses/perticipants and the pending 1year report.. for all that to be false with all the people involved … i struggle to find it plausible they are all culpable or gullible enough to be part of that level of failure.

          the realistic part of me does say theirs always a chance its fake regardless of our hopes. (this is the internet after all)

    • Agreed down to ‘My instincts…’ Instincts aren’t evidence or even the basis of a valid opinion.

      Agreed from ‘The above…’ onwards.

      As the entire cold fusion resurgence (in public at least) seems to be largely down to Rossi, and even IH has verified the reality of Rossi’s devices until recently, your ‘instinct’ that Rossi has nothing seems to be severely at odds with the current weight of evidence.

    • I agree with your first paragraph…
      but there is no indication of military oppositions.
      Navy, nasa, lockheed martin, like oil companies and car manufacturer, investigated LENr and let data leak when their don’t publish.

      only opposition is academic, and LENr community irrationality, fragmentation, underfunding…

      there is no sockpuppets, but simply mindguard (and believers) who are sincere in trying to save the world from bad science, from evil forces.

      • Thomas Baccei

        Not opposition as much as delay while they re-equip their forces with capabilities unmatchable by anyone else in the world. Theory: Gov’t acceptance – Delay for R&D & MFG for military – Controlled release to general public. All institutions seek stability, continuity and control.

  • georgehants

    It does not need a list of things to advance Cold Fusion, just one.
    Rossi is the only person in the World that is claiming to have discovered a commercially viable method to produce energy.
    He needs to forget his capitalistic, selfish, dreams and if he is genuine with a COP of ~50 then publish NOW.
    I am sure the World governments will award him cash prizes, enough to buy a new tennis racket and bike.
    He is acting like the worst of drug company’s that let millions die and suffer for parents and profit.
    He is the only one advanced enough, if genuine, to open the whole subject for the World and gain the respect of billions.
    Within weeks of his publishing the recipe for a consistent working device, nobody will be able to stop what he has delayed for 5+ years already.

    • tlp

      Rossi is not the only one, Randell Mills is another one. Both have very similar plans for mass production starting 2017.
      Both planning for direct electrical production, so the COP is infinite.
      Biggest difference is that Mills/BrLPs SunCell don’t need refueling once a year as the fuel is just water.

      • georgehants

        tip, thank you, then if Randell Mills is speaking as loudly as Rossi that he has a commercially practical device, then he also needs to stop playing silly little games with peoples lives and publish the recipe for replication.

        • tlp

          Mills has published the receipe in numerous scientific papers and patent applications. Some engineering details are not yet public, as the latest patent applications are filed just recently. Next public demo is in June.

          • georgehants

            tip, has he published the means for anybody to simply replicate and confirm his claims immediately without further knowledge?

          • tlp

            Yes.

          • georgehants

            tip , many thanks, then for what reason are we not receiving many reports of replication of his commercially viable method of creating energy far above the input?

          • tlp

            There is many reports.

          • georgehants

            tip, link please to one of these reports confirming replication of a commercially high energy ready for production, thanks.

          • Billy Jackson

            there isn’t one. both are looking to produce commercially and they are not going to give away the secret so that someone who already has production facilities and distribution centers can get the jump on them.. its financial suicide.

            As much as i respect your stance, you have tried to use the bleeding heart angle to get them to release the device for free (or its information).. its just not going to happen. outside of someone stealing one.. it just wont happen.

          • georgehants

            Billy thank you for answering my question, i do not need you or anybody to judge my stance on Cold Fusion, I simply put my view and you and all are quite free to put yours and believe that money is more important than lives.

          • Billy Jackson

            Your view is just as valid as anyone else. I don’t dispute the need you present at all.

          • kdk

            You keep bringing this up, and I think you should already understand what tons of bricks can be brought down on somebody violating a patent. Those bricks probably coming from somebody with lots of money in oil. It matters who has the patent. If Rossi releases the information publicly, you can bet the patent will get through, and not by him. Then the bricks come down on people trying to do open science.

          • tlp

            Patents means that commercially ready fo production is only possible for Brilliant Light Power.

          • georgehants

            tip, please give links to anybody that has replicated with the details given in the patent a commercially viable device to confirm their claims, that of course anybody can do if not doing so for profit.

          • tlp

            Who would have resources and interest to build quite complicated machine, when you know that you cannot use it commercially?

          • georgehants

            tip, are you saying that no scientists, no commercial organizations would not wish to replicate and publish they had confirmed a new, beyond known science, discovery, thank you for chat.

          • tlp

            There have been replications, but not commercial level, because it would need same resources as BrLP has, and no financial return for the work.

          • georgehants

            tip, a long chat, I am not asking if a commercial replication has happened, I am asking for a link to any scientist etc who has confirmed that the published technology of a commercially viable product has been replicated and works as advertised.
            I am simply asking is there no link to scientific work confirming the advance as I am sure there would very quickly be so if Rossi published all details of his (supposed) discovery, MFMP for one, I think, if so I would find our scientific establishment even more incompetent than already proven.

          • Billy Jackson

            george there has been proof.. the problem arises because every single time they call into question the bias of the tester and some how find fault but never really explain the fault.

          • tlp
          • georgehants

            tip, many thanks again, I am very open-minded on their claims as always, but that is like giving a link to a politician giving his promises that his way will be best for all.
            Proof of the pudding is only in the eating.
            Best

          • DocSiders

            I doubt that Rossi has the goods.

            With a COP > 12, a closed loop demonstration would not have to reveal any secrets. Assemble an Isolated Closed Loop system comprised of: An ENCLOSED ECAT that is delivering Heat into a Stirling Engine (or other “heat-to-current” device) that is charging batteries + excess heat doing obvious work (boil water or run a bank of lights)… with the battery driving the inverters/frequency generators that drive the ECAT.

            Run that system in a public place for a few months with a live video internet feed.

            I could build such an assembly for under $10,000 in about a month.

            That is the kind of demonstration we all want to see…and would cost a heck of a lot less in time and money than the #@!?/ing 1 year fiasco.

            Rossi won’t do anything this obvious because he can’t.

          • kdk

            Torkel seems quite bright, energetic, and driven by morals which is a lot more than can be said for some.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I believe that the disclosure of something real at high COP with partial confirmation by independent groups has forever changed the world. To make LENR grow, it clearly needs a reliable product with a big economic advantage. I suspect that the large thermal plant could be one such approach. I think a more rapid deployment of the technology would happen if it was small and affordable by a large number of people.

            I signed up for the small LENR device. Here in Wisconsin, a number of homes are heated by propane — an expensive way to go. Surprisingly, many use in-room, stand-alone propane heaters with CO issues. Accidents happens and people have died. Could a LENR heater fare worse?

            The rise of drones illustrates what happens when technology becomes affordable. First, the big guys (in this case, the military) use it at a cost of millions per drone. Then technology advances, making dense energy sources, lightweight motors with inexpensive drive electronics, and most importantly, inertial navigation and guidance components. BOOM! The market explodes. Government tries to prevent it, but market forces prevail and now small drones cannot be stopped. They have many economic benefits including surveying roads, searching for lost children, photographing from new perspectives, delivering goods and surveying farmer fields. The farm market alone in the US is estimated to be over $US70 Billion.

            Will Rossi prevail? The jury will be shortly out on that. I do like to root for the little guy verses the big corporations, but what will happen in the short term will not change the long term results. I firmly believe that the LENR (not so) secret technology, now out, will prevail.

          • Gerard McEk

            Thomas, you have no idea what LENR will do for drones. If it is true what AR is saying for over a year now, that he is developing a QuarkX-turbine, and it works (F8), then the end of private cars will quickly come to an end and affordable hired drones will fill the air. You just order a drone and within 10 minutes you can enter it. You tell it where to go and off it goes. No streets, no cues straight to you destination, at a speed of a jet plane. Only maybe the last few 100 yards you have to walk, from the public landing place (somewhere on the empty street) to you final desteny.
            I just hope they aren’t allowed to fly everywhere (like around my house ;))

          • Thomas Kaminski

            Gerard I do have an idea what QuarkX would do to the long range flight, but it will take a little time to get the electrical power needed (on the order of 400 watts for a 1KG quad with 10 minutes of flight). It would be cool if the amateur modeling people came up with a jet engine based on LENR. I can remember as a kid seeing “buzz-bomb” type of engines powering U-Control planes. I still remember the cherry red glow of the thrust tube and the echos off the local mountains after the fuel ran out. Pretty impressive.

            And don’t worry about them flying around your house — the government will protect you. At least that portion of the government that doesn’t already know everything about you through your internet connections.

          • cashmemorz

            I’m glad you brought up the CO incidents. If the government is so tied into fossil fuels that it allows CO poisoning then that same government has little or no say in the occasional and short lived gammas and or even short duration neutrons that are SOMETIMES emitted by LENR devices. If it ever came to a court case regarding that point then your example should be pulled into court. However, the government or DOE or other agency could simply use the reasoning that they must update the quality of life by preventing even minor incidences of any kind of radiation as a point of progress for the betterment of the citizenry. It might all come down to which side of the bed the judge got up on the day of decision.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            Good point. Don’t forget the tanks of gasoline and diesel fuel sitting like bombs in garages and the myriad gas and petrol pipelines leaking at inopportune times. There are several natural gas explosions a year in Wisconsin.

          • cashmemorz

            One has to ask what is the “potential” harm that “might” come from using a new untried technology. Anything can be imagined, but until something actually happens to harm a significant number of incidences then there is no basis for such “looking for trouble” where there is none. But some are looking for anything that might put a bad skew on the LENR or more likely Rossi effect.

          • artefact

            Thanks for the hint (June). Sometimes I forget to look in the messageboard.

    • radvar

      Do the math (round numbers): ~7 billion people, ~70 year life span = 100 millions deaths per year. Assume 10% would have lived another year with better energy access (probably more like 10 years, but hey). So each year of delay in introducing LENR potentially results in ~10 million life-years lost per year due to lack of better energy access.

      Then we can talk about quality of life, or, stated differently, escape from daily terrifying insecurity and physical misery…

      • Gerald

        Torkell isn’t losing it. He has a way of turning what looks random events in line and shows the bigger picture. The events and the movements of the big companies I’ve seen myself, he has the talent of turning these actions into predictions. From what I have seen he’s often in the good track.

        True, the latest from him about IH and US politics look far of and a little mad, but based on his track record I give him the benefit of doubt. When it comes to power and money things get real dirty. It sometimes a shame my mind can’t really think like those people, it is must to altruism for it. But my mind is very good in remembering and seeing certain events that don’t look logic at the time. Torkel sees does events to. This guy is just a really really smart, Good to read his ideas and maybe sometime he would be false but that is no problem I think. Like everything you see and read, think about it and draw your own conclusion.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Rossi is the only person
      in the World that is claiming to have discovered a commercially viable method
      to produce energy.

      No, many solar panel makers and others are claiming the same thing. And Rossi is the only person in LENR that you KNOW OF making such a claim. There could be others raising money and building some LENR factory as we speak. Governments are notorious for keeping things from the public, but so are companies like Apple.

      I am sure the World
      governments will award him cash prizes, enough to buy a new tennis racket and
      bike.

      Are you kidding? You mean the same government that chased Pons and Fleishman out of town? They lost their jobs, their careers and in fact everything they had worked for.

      if genuine, to open
      the whole subject for the World and gain the respect of billions.

      Wow! Spoken like a true socialist! Let’s have a group hug?

      EVERY TIME we turn on lights in our house, the electricity we use, or the wireless radio when we use Wi-Fi or the radio we are using inventions by Tesla!

      But Tesla died broke and penniless. However that’s ok because Tesla has the respect of billions of people? Where were all your socialist foe supporting Tesla then? Your child like naivety that
      because this person does something good, you THEN assume your socialist foe
      will take care of him and open their pockets and provide him with a tennis racket?

      You seem to forget history shows that such people are rewarded with poverty and loss of everything.

      So who are you suggesting that will take care of Rossi? Perhaps you suggesting the same people that took care of P&F or Tesla?

      Such people were nowhere to be seen when the time came to buck up – but boy oh boy did they line up when there was bread being taken out of the oven.

      if he is genuine with
      a COP of ~50 then publish NOW.

      Rossi stated the ERV report shows a COP of 50. So he done that already and stated the ERV COP on his website. So Rossi has published the COP fact of 50 on his web site.

      You seem to think that the ERV report will change anything in the public’s mind beyond what Rossi has stated already? It will not. IN FACT I DON’T THINK PUBLISHING THE REPORT WILL MAKE ONE HILL OF BEANS DIFFERENCE. To be fair, Rossi wants to publish ASAP, and the legal dispute with IH is preventing this. However, I think it is a fantasy that the report
      will change few if anyone’s mind. Skeptics will remain skeptics.

      Rossi has ALREADY stated the COP, so he certainly not holding back or delaying is he? He’s ALREADY told the world.

      And Rossi already did a public demo in 2011 with the press invited to see a reactor in operation.

      And before anyone going to give anyone money, I would think any prudent person would suggest that one say build a working plant, perhaps run it for about a year to prove it works. And along the way you hire someone to log the data. After that, then additional millions or billions can be raised.

      Of course you as socialist think that everyone will just hand their hard earned money out to someone else. You socialists are great at taking and giving away OTHERS people money – so you think people will do the same to Rossi and that’s not the case. Rossi ONLY received
      money after doing demos and having IH test his machine.

      Why should someone who builds a farm for years should now give that farm away?

      Same goes for Rossi. I think SRI would have been a great independent test lab, but with Beryllium involved with SRI, then Rossi can’t really trust them, could he?

      So, who you going to have test your product and ensure they not run away with that product? Why give away your car or farm to someone else that you worked all your life for?

      And from what we heard, IH started taking out patents on LENR against Rossi’s wishes. (so they already trying to take away things from Rossi).

      Rossi already announced he has such technology.

      Tesla died broke and penniless. So your socialist view suggests everyone else will come along and fork out money to Rossi out of their good will?

      If you can come up with a better process to prevent those with this technology
      from being raped, and not dying penniless, then I all ears.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Warthog

      Uh…no. See Brillouin, Lenuco, Mills hydrino stuff, and probably others I am not aware of who are “flying under the radar”.

  • georgehants

    It does not need a list of things to advance Cold Fusion, just one.
    Rossi is the only person in the World that is claiming to have discovered a commercially viable method to produce energy.
    He needs to forget his capitalistic, selfish, dreams and if he is genuine with a COP of ~50 then publish NOW.
    I am sure the World governments will award him cash prizes, enough to buy a new tennis racket and bike.
    He is acting like the worst of drug company’s that let millions die and suffer for patents and profit.
    He is the only one advanced enough, if genuine, to open the whole subject for the World and gain the respect of billions.
    Within weeks of his publishing the recipe for a consistent working device, nobody will be able to stop what he has delayed for 5+ years already.
    If there is any outside pressure on him not to publish then he SHOULD announce that immediately, naming all names.

    • tlp

      Rossi is not the only one, Randell Mills is another one. Both have very similar plans for mass production starting 2017.
      Both planning for direct electrical production, so the COP is infinite.
      Biggest difference is that Mills/BrLPs SunCell don’t need refueling once a year as the fuel is just water.

      • georgehants

        tip, thank you, then if Randell Mills is speaking as loudly as Rossi that he has a commercially practical device, then he also needs to stop playing silly little games with peoples lives and publish the recipe for replication.

        • tlp

          Mills has published the receipe in numerous scientific papers and patent applications. Some engineering details are not yet public, as the latest patent applications are filed just recently. Next public demo is in June.

          • georgehants

            tip, has he published the means for anybody to simply replicate and confirm his claims immediately without further knowledge?

          • tlp

            Yes.

          • georgehants

            tip , many thanks, then for what reason are we not receiving many reports of replication of his commercially viable method of creating energy far above the input?

          • tlp

            There is many reports.

          • georgehants

            tip, link please to one of these reports confirming replication of a commercially high energy ready for production, thanks.

          • Billy Jackson

            there isn’t one. both are looking to produce commercially and they are not going to give away the secret so that someone who already has production facilities and distribution centers can get the jump on them.. its financial suicide.

            As much as i respect your stance, you have tried to use the bleeding heart angle to get them to release the device for free (or its information).. its just not going to happen. outside of someone stealing one.. it just wont happen.

          • georgehants

            Billy thank you for answering my question, I do not need you or anybody to judge my stance on Cold Fusion, I simply put my view and you and all are quite free to put yours and believe that money is more important than lives.

          • Billy Jackson

            Your view is just as valid as anyone else. I don’t dispute the need you present at all.

          • kdk

            You keep bringing this up, and I think you should already understand what tons of bricks can be brought down on somebody violating a patent. Those bricks probably coming from somebody with lots of money in oil. It matters who has the patent. If Rossi releases the information publicly, you can bet the patent will get through, and not by him. Then the bricks come down on people trying to do open science.

          • tlp

            Patents means that commercially ready fo production is only possible for Brilliant Light Power.

          • georgehants

            tip, please give links to anybody that has replicated with the details given in the patent a commercially viable device to confirm their claims, that of course anybody can do if not doing so for profit.

          • tlp

            Who would have resources and interest to build quite complicated machine, when you know that you cannot use it commercially?

          • georgehants

            tip, are you saying that no scientists, no commercial organizations would not wish to replicate and publish they had confirmed a new, beyond known science, discovery, thank you for chat.

          • tlp

            There have been replications, but not commercial level, because it would need same resources as BrLP has, and no financial return for the work.

          • georgehants

            tip, a long chat, I am not asking if a commercial replication has happened, I am asking for a link to any scientist etc who has confirmed that the published technology of a commercially viable product has been replicated and works as advertised.
            I am simply asking is there no link to scientific work confirming the advance as I am sure there would very quickly be so if Rossi published all details of his (supposed) discovery, MFMP for one, I think, if so I would find our scientific establishment even more incompetent than already proven.
            Edit, I notice above you have said that all details have not yet been published, so there can be no replication and the discovery is in no way proven, just a hopeful like Rossi.
            Sorry for missing that.

          • Billy Jackson

            george there has been proof.. the problem arises because every single time they call into question the bias of the tester and some how find fault but never really explain the fault.

          • tlp
          • georgehants

            tip, many thanks again, I am very open-minded on their claims as always, but that is like giving a link to a politician giving his promises that his way will be best for all.
            I will now keep in mind that there are two claims of high output energy devices, both needing open conformation.
            Proof of the pudding is only in the eating.
            Best

          • artefact

            Thanks for the hint (June). Sometimes I forget to look in the messageboard.

    • priestie

      We hear this again and again. That Rossi, and alike, should publish and give it all to the world. But Rossi is just playing by the rules, that have been running the world for the last 200 years. Capital is our God, and Rossi is making us all offer and pray to “him”. This is really the most naturally way to play such an invention out in our current worlds modus operandi.

      Who knows witch investors in Leonardo Corp Rossi is obligated to present some return on their investments to. He would probably get a law suit on his back himself, if he just gave the ecat to the world.

      I wish Rossi WOULD give it all for free, but don’t bash at him, for playing it “by the book”.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Rossi is the only person
      in the World that is claiming to have discovered a commercially viable method
      to produce energy.

      No, many solar panel makers and others are claiming the same thing. And Rossi is the only person in LENR that you KNOW OF making such a claim. There could be others raising money and building some LENR factory as we speak. Governments are notorious for keeping things from the public, but so are companies like Apple.

      I am sure the World
      governments will award him cash prizes, enough to buy a new tennis racket and
      bike.

      Are you kidding? You mean the same government that chased Pons and Fleishman out of town? They lost their jobs, their careers and in fact everything they had worked for.

      if genuine, to open
      the whole subject for the World and gain the respect of billions.

      Wow! Spoken like a true socialist! Let’s have a group hug?

      EVERY TIME we turn on lights in our house, the electricity we use, or the wireless radio when we use Wi-Fi or the radio we are using inventions by Tesla!

      But Tesla died broke and penniless. However that’s ok because Tesla has the respect of billions of people? Where were all your socialist foe supporting Tesla then? Your child like naivety that
      because this person does something good, you THEN assume your socialist foe
      will take care of him and open their pockets and provide him with a tennis racket?

      You seem to forget history shows that such people are rewarded with poverty and loss of everything.

      So who are you suggesting that will take care of Rossi? Perhaps you suggesting the same people that took care of P&F or Tesla?

      Such people were nowhere to be seen when the time came to buck up – but boy oh boy did they line up when there was bread being taken out of the oven.

      if he is genuine with
      a COP of ~50 then publish NOW.

      Rossi stated the ERV report shows a COP of 50. So he done that already and stated the ERV COP on his website. So Rossi has published the COP fact of 50 on his web site.

      You seem to think that the ERV report will change anything in the public’s mind beyond what Rossi has stated already? It will not. IN FACT I DON’T THINK PUBLISHING THE REPORT WILL MAKE ONE HILL OF BEANS DIFFERENCE. To be fair, Rossi wants to publish ASAP, and the legal dispute with IH is preventing this. However, I think it is a fantasy that the report
      will change few if anyone’s mind. Skeptics will remain skeptics.

      Rossi has ALREADY stated the COP, so he certainly not holding back or delaying is he? He’s ALREADY told the world.

      And Rossi already did a public demo in 2011 with the press invited to see a reactor in operation.

      And before anyone going to give anyone money, I would think any prudent person would suggest that one say build a working plant, perhaps run it for about a year to prove it works. And along the way you hire someone to log the data. After that, then additional millions or billions can be raised.

      Of course you as socialist think that everyone will just hand their hard earned money out to someone else. You socialists are great at taking and giving away OTHERS people money – so you think people will do the same to Rossi and that’s not the case. Rossi ONLY received
      money after doing demos and having IH test his machine.

      Why should someone who builds a farm for years should now give that farm away?

      Same goes for Rossi. I think SRI would have been a great independent test lab, but with Beryllium involved with SRI, then Rossi can’t really trust them, could he?

      So, who you going to have test your product and ensure they not run away with that product? Why give away your car or farm to someone else that you worked all your life for?

      And from what we heard, IH started taking out patents on LENR against Rossi’s wishes. (so they already trying to take away things from Rossi).

      Rossi already announced he has such technology.

      Tesla died broke and penniless. So your socialist view suggests everyone else will come along and fork out money to Rossi out of their good will?

      If you can come up with a better process to prevent those with this technology
      from being raped, and not dying penniless, then I all ears.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Warthog

      Uh…no. See Brillouin, Lenuco, Mills hydrino stuff, and probably others I am not aware of who are “flying under the radar”.

  • Billy Jackson

    I try my best not to get into conspiracy theories. I don’t always succeed. So i will try to limit myself here so you don’t get the ravings of conjecture based on my own biases. 🙂

    Like many of you, I have been here for years watching the story unfold. We waited nearly a year for the 1MW plant results and the culmination of the 3rd party results from that year long test. It was with shock and ice water bitterness that i opened http://www.ecatworld.com and read that Rossi was suing IH. As I continued to read and pick up the occasional tidbits here and there.. i honestly felt like I had been kicked in the stomach. I do not think i am alone in this.

    Now time has passed and i have cooled down, letting the more analytical nature take over when passion and anger finally subsided. It leaves me with unfortunately with even more questions. But i think pertinent ones that cut to the core of the issue.

    1. If IH was unable to validate the e-cat. why did they build one without Rossi’s involvement claim a COP of 11+ .. and then file their own patent.

    2. Why wait till the final days to dispute the technology? After a year of selling its advantages to investors? what is behind the reason for this? surely its not money. as IH is more than capable of paying the amount due.

    The evidence as presented for the first causes you to be biased to the answer of the 2nd issue.

    what follows is nothing more than pure conjecture and just an opinion.

    I think Rossi 1-uped himself. i think that he gave all the information that IH needed to make the e-cat and presented them with a working product. all 3 reports from the individuals representing Leonardo, IH, and an Independent all fell close to each other in their readings.. but something else was going on behind the scenes.. the 1 MW works and its a great product.. but in his time working on the 1MW plant.. Rossi made an even better product. (the quark) one that’s not covered by a contract or is murky at best on who gets to use that product.

    No one wants to go to market with an inferior product when you have something better already close to production. Is this really about money and validity or is this a battle about the potential control of product markets for the e-cats future?

    • Gerard McEk

      Rossi has said more than once that the Hot Cat X or the mini version the QuarkX would belong to the license contract. So I do not believe that your theory is right.

      • Billy Jackson

        it very well may not be. 🙂

    • f sedei

      Your conjecture may be more accurate than you believe. A” bird in the bush” theory may be appropriate in this situation. Rossi wants the promised $89M, and he strongly believes he has the goods to back his belief. His confidence allowed him to file the law suit against IH.. Rossi must further have confidence that he surely has others (investors and countries) of considerable means who may be anxious to take up the supportive Ecat cause if the legal route fails him. I believe Andre Rossi will prevail.

  • roseland67

    Billy,
    The questions you are asking yourself are only those that when answered, believing that Ecat works as stated, support your argument. That is why these are the only questions you are asking yourself, You believe the Ecat works as stated, or at least you want to believe it, (hint, we all do).

    1. Publish the bill of material
    2. Publish the build instructions
    3. Publish the method of operation
    4. Publish the results obtained from same
    5. Make damn sure anyone can replicate.

    This is how you avoid 1989 P&F debacle,
    Everything else is just a “duck, dodge, hide, flee, avoid and evade”
    tactic that only reinforces the probality that the Ecat does not work as stated.

    It’s been well over 5 years now, if it works as stated,
    how long does Rossi think he can keep it a secret?

    • Billy Jackson

      you are a proponent of open science. that’s respectable.

      unfortunately the guys doing this want a commercial product which is their right. You have a moral right to question anything until you are given proof.

      Rossi and the 31 day tests have provided said proof, along with the rumored 1 year test being positive. now the onus is in your court to point out in the reports where it went wrong and why its wrong. you don’t get to claim it doesn’t work “just because”.

      This is not an academic study on LENR its Rossi trying to make a viable product.

      • roseland67

        Billy,
        Rossi, et al, have only provided compelling evidence (and always with multiple caveats and questionable methodology) that this excess heat effect may work.

        There is also compelling evidence of Loch Ness monster, UFO’s, Big Foot, weeping statues of the Virgin Mary, but precious few here, if any, believe this compelling evidence.

        Patent applications can protect their design, to hide behind that for 5+ years is starting to look pretty thin.

        Imagine yourself in a courtroom, and a lawyer asks you these questions.
        Have you ever met Rossi?
        Have you ever seen an Ecat operate?
        Have you ever seen an Ecat installed?
        Can you explain how Ecat works?
        Who does Rossi owe $ to?
        Have you ever been present at any tests?
        Have you ever seen his test methodology?
        Who was present at the tests?
        Do you know any of these people?
        Who are they influenced by?
        Are they paid to publish very specific results

        you would most probably answer No to all of these questions, but you would somehow answer you know the Ecat works?

        It is not incumbent on anyone anywhere to point out where the flaws are, especially if I wasn’t present at the tests and knowledgable of the testing protocol and build specifications.

        Eventually, however in happens, the Ecat will be peer reviewed by intelligent experienced engineers and scientists that want to know the Ecat works, not just be told, and for the last 5+ years, no one here knows.

    • clovis ray

      Concerning the latter, as long as people thinks it’s a fraud, the people that would care won’t worry, Dr. R know this, and does not care, because it works to his advantage, which means time, inventors never have enough time, being a workaholic, helps if you can control it,
      so much to do so little time, this E-CAT project, has been moving along at a breakneck speed , compared with traditional R/D.

  • kdk

    IMHO, the various thermal runaways from people like Szpak and P&F themselves show beyond any doubt that it’s real. There is no way to boil off a bunch of water overnight with small electrodes with limited input energy and melt through containers that doesn’t involve a revolutionary energy source. Combined with their characters, there is no doubt that something unorthodox happened. The runaways were after the addition of magnetic fluctuations, in Szpak’s case anyway.

    Rossi only has to provide a compelling demonstration to the people he is now approaching and our opinions won’t affect the result after that. Hopefully, they are more serious than IH, and can help secure a patent so this thing doesn’t get sat on by people who potentially have trillions of dollars to lose. I don’t have any doubts about Rossi having a legit product anymore, after all of the tests we have seen and replications that some amount of excess energy is coming from them. Rossi would be ahead of the curve that, afaik, he started.

    To the best of my knowledge MFMP and others haven’t experimented adding field fluctuations/resonances into the mix. My advice would be to exercise more caution and add some distance from the reactors if they did that.

    If you don’t believe that people pull shenanigans over large sums of money, you are woefully uninformed. A good place to kick-start your understanding of the world we live in today would be to visit: http://www.ae911truth.org/ . If you don’t understand that the MSM is bought and sold lies, you will be perpetually confused by the happenings of the age.

    • clovis ray

      HI,kdk,
      I fear not, the mib. and if they should want to visit, i would be honored,
      as i trust my government/country, to protect me, that’s why we’er called Americans,
      most people of the world don’t have that protection. it is a right not a privilege.
      And i’m too small of a fish,for them to bother with, but i do worry about Dr R..
      there is so much potential here with e-cat,and you know there are lots of people that will get very rich from E-cat related products, to many to mention. lots and lots of work to be done, it will help the world out of this depression.

      • kdk

        I guess we have very different experiences with them then.

  • Rossi Fan

    1. Recipe: I agree.

    2. Company: I see problems with FDA approval.

    3. Peer review: Publications and trade organizations cater to their industries. The industries do not want to see a game changer which puts them out of business.

    4. Fabio: The fact that this report involves one and only one person completely corrupts it and renders it useless.

    5. Andrea Rossi demo: He has already indicated that a) he gave away all secrets to IH/Chinese/Brillo and b) he will not demo because he is afraid of giving away secrets. As far as Rossi goes this option is off the table. There’s incognito anonymous ME262 who claims he is afraid for his safety or something to that effect. That leaves the Chinese and Russians: good luck!

    6. E-Cat customer: This is not forthcoming. Don’t hold your breath.

    7. Large company: Large companies and institutions are not very innovative. They prefer to buy out a small company once the technology is proven (which means #2).

    • Gerard McEk

      I still believe that AR should have his Ecat or QuarkX tested by e.g. MFMP. Just the COP will do, so no real secrets will need to be revealed. I am sure that the whole LENR community would support that with all means, especially in case IH wants to discredit LENR/CF as a whole (see http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/).

      • FRAN 34

        Torkell is loosing it.

        • Bob

          I agree, Torkell is becoming the mirrored clone of Krivit.
          .
          He is beginning to discredit himself.

          • Bruce__H

            Krivit draws conclusions that the true believers of Rossi don’t like, but his reporting is impeccable. What has he reported that has turned out to be wrong?

          • Bob

            Bruce,
            I should have been more clear, indeed my error.
            .
            While I am not a big Krivit fan, it is mainly because of the “tone” that he uses. It seems quite apparent that he has a personal vendetta of some sort against Rossi. Using words like “convicted felon”, “proven fraudster” etc. in all of his articles really do take away the validity in many people’s view. When something seems personal, it often is taken with less credibility as there is an apparent agenda behind the scenes.
            .
            sifferkoll seems to be following the same path, only in reverse with the target of his posts. It seems evident that he carries a personal vendetta against IH/Darden. What I see here and referenced in other places seems to be degrading to a “holy crusade”. Even APCO now, is a knowing and willing cohort of the “evil plan” against Rossi and CF!.
            The wording used is degrading to a new low.
            .
            It is interesting that many think it ridiculous that that all the people involved confirming the eCat are fraudsters or stupid or involved in some grand scheme. (I agree, it is not likely) But it is just as ridiculous stating the Darden, IH (and thus it’s board of directors), Jed Rothwell and now Apco are all part of an orchestrated plot to discredit Rossi! I can only shake my head.
            .
            As mentioned above, the LENR community is doing enough self-demonizing that no negative PR campaign is needed. A sad state.
            .
            So my comparison between Krivit and sifferkoll was not about who is right or who is wrong. It is the clear personal vendetta of some sort that seems to be driving them both. Krivit only goes “off” on Rossi and sifferkoll goes “off” on those who question Rossi. (Even though they were held in high regard two years ago! How things change!)
            .

          • Apco involvment is NOT a coincidence. Doesn’t happen! They only take on assignments with a larger agenda of shaping public opinion, not simple PR missions. Their advisory board is flooded with high end politicians and Goldman Sachs people. Have a look.

            I’ve been writing about BigBank (ie WhiteHouse+AGW etc) involvement for years. The signs are out there, and they’ve become more frequent lately as we all noticed. If something is personal then it is NOT against any persons per se (Darden/Weaver et al) but against establishment involvement to protect status quo interests. It’s not about an evil plan to them. It’s only business as usual.

            About “orchestrated and grand schemes”. Well, not very, but to some degree Apco and Jones Day strategists plan stuff because it is their job to do so. Darden is only trying to protect his and his investors interests and using to tools he got. I happen to believe this is not in the best interest for LENR as a whole, or Rossi right now, so I do what I can do to stop it. It’s as simple as that.

            And they are watching. Two visits from this morning …

          • lkelemen

            visiting from a site doesn’t necessary mean the site owner is interested. an employee of the site’s owner has private interest.

          • US_Citizen71

            I’m guessing you don’t do any web-hosting. Websites can and do collect information on their visitors computers. The data he is presenting is for a visitor’s computer not a website. The computer was Windows 7 model, the browser was Chrome and the monitor was 1650×1050. The IP address goes back to a block reserved for the State Department.

          • lkelemen

            If I visit his site from my desktop at work of XYZ company then is XYZ company interested or me as a private person? Can you tell me?

          • US_Citizen71

            While it is possible that some member of the State department is wasting my tax dollars surfing instead of working, that practice is very frowned upon by the Federal Government and can get you fired as all websites surfed to are recorded and reviewed. Something that many private companies do as well.

          • cashmemorz

            Lots of government time is used up for little of gain or any real need. Those at the top can allot their free time to nefarious acts without oversite

        • kdk

          Torkel seems quite bright, energetic, and driven by morals which is a lot more than can be said for some. He would be messed with a lot more if he were living elsewhere in the world.

        • Thomas Kaminski

          Torkell is reporting facts that he sees as someone who analyzes big data. He outed Weaver and has reported on the rise of attacks on LENR. I do not see that he is “loosing” it, rather reporting the facts from his unique perspective. His opinions and theories are stated as well, but I find his theories more plausible than not. What specific facts do you have that lead you to the conclusion that he is “loosing” it?

        • Gerald

          Torkell isn’t losing it. He has a way of turning what looks random events in line and shows the bigger picture. The events and the movements of the big companies I’ve seen myself, he has the talent of turning these actions into predictions. From what I have seen he’s often in the good track.

          True, the latest from him about IH and US politics look far of and a little mad, but based on his track record I give him the benefit of doubt. When it comes to power and money things get real dirty. It sometimes a shame my mind can’t really think like those people, it is must to altruism for it. But my mind is very good in remembering and seeing certain events that don’t look logic at the time. Torkel sees does events to. This guy is just a really really smart, Good to read his ideas and maybe sometime he would be false but that is no problem I think. Like everything you see and read, think about it and draw your own conclusion.

      • Bob

        Bob Greenyer has stated that MFMP has offered to the test on the eCat in the past but their offer was refused.
        .
        What better test could there be! Completely open, no hidden agendas and by people not afraid to say they made a mistake if one is made! (A trait that is too rare now days and one that shows high character) They would state that they found a COP of “X” or they would state there was no excess heat found.
        .
        Perhaps that is the problem?

    • bachcole

      I know that the FDA is the scum-of-the-Earth, but what does the Food and Drug Administration have to do with LENR?

      • Rossi Fan

        Here you go:

        http://tinyurl.com/zkwx2j8

        In a nutshell:

        The United States (U.S.) Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) Center for
        Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) is responsible for regulating
        radiation-emitting electronic products.

        You can use and produce a product that emits radiation all you want. Like IH/Leonardo did at JM. You just cannot sell a product without FDA approval.

        FDA approval for new stuff that does not exist on the market takes a long time and costs several million dollars. There is an industry built around the FDA that prepares the paperwork and does the certifications.

        Lead shielding cannot be used as an excuse to avoid this process. So don’t go there.

        From what I understand LENR needs a short blast of radiation to get things started. Even a tiny amount of radiation equivalent to a dental x-ray and Rossi is caught in FDA’s web.

        • Chapman

          Actually, my wifi router puts out radiation, but has no FDA certification. So does my tv, and my smoke detector.

          “Radiation” is big word with broad meanings. An E-Cat produces no regulated emissions that would fall under the scrutiny the FDA.

        • help_lenr

          Looks like you believe that USA is the only center of science and technology. There are many countries which think and work without paying too much attention to what american institutes say about quality of products, eg: Russia, China, Japan, Korea. They have their own markets to start with; after this start phase successfull products will be sold fast to countries which are not controlled by global coorporations.

          If USA will be foolish enough to stop LENR applications it will be punished hard because USA will be delayed in the race for LENR energy and may lose it’s dominance in commercial activity and weapon industry. USA was arrogant in their space programs in 1950 or so until Russia sent the Sputnik satellite, USA needed a huge effort to recover (that is why president kennedy started the FLY TO MOON program). This time a recovering effort might not be enough because the world changed and there are now strong industries outside USA.

        • Warthog

          I think you may be reading the FDA’s authority a bit too broadly. I think what they have authority over is things like x-ray or other nuclear diagnostic and medical treatment equipment (gamma knife, cancer irradiation devices).

          Devices such as Rossi’s would more likely be under the auspices of the DOE.

  • clovis ray

    Hi, Frank,
    I’ve, been thinking along those lines, myself, there is so much to be said about F/P, that it would take pages.
    I think they were good and honest scientist, that was in way over their heads, with no known procedure, of eather starting, or stopping the process.

    But, we need not concern yourself with what happened last time, so much as what is going to happen very soon, it great that you bring this up now, Frank, we know about the all out bliez, here of late.
    Great forces will no doubt be arrayed against Dr. Rossi, and it will separate the chaff from the grain, we must pull together,and help as much as we can,
    First law of the hitchhiker’s guide to the universe, is DON’T PANIC. ha, ha,
    The deal is, things are well in hand, publicly is still not desirable at this point, still to soon,
    We, I want,a home unit, be it the qurke x, or a facsimile thereof. and the way i see it is, helping Dr. Rossi, he has the best chance to get large manufacturers to produce quickly, the commercial cats are being built as we type. as things pick up so will supply, bigger factories, re tooling of old plants,
    Jobs, JOBS jobs,
    Look if everyone, that has the ability,could build their own, i’m afraid very few would get built.
    in this day and age, things move fast if need be, and the need is great.

    The E-CAT is the ticket, for a quick realization,that we all want one, not just a few, and not just some part, of the world all of the world, Dr, Rossi has shown himself to be the man that can make that happen quicker and with a product that won’t be tearing up after a few weeks.

    His device, does not create a thermonuclear meltdown, as some would like you to believe,
    Although, it will meltdown, whitch causes it to shut down, safely, with no harmful radioactivity
    whatsoever, so no nuclear waste,it’s clean, safe, convenient,totally economical, fun and nice to look at, sorry kinda got lost there, lol.

    • kdk

      .

  • AdrianAshfield

    Grief. I would have thought it obvious by now that Rossi’s forecast that only sale of working reactors would quell the critics is right.
    If you can’t accept the verdict of an ERV on the one year operation of a 1 MW plant, what makes you think anything else will?

    • bachcole

      I don’t see Rossi winning this fight, and if he doesn’t it will set back LENR for 5 or 10 more years. If he loses because he doesn’t have the goods, then we can add 5 or 10 more years on to that number. I have only enough hope to keep coming back here.

      The problem I see is that it will not matter if the E-Cat is super-wonderful or not. He is going to lose because I.H. has more money.

      If he should actually start selling working units of any sort of LENR, then everything I said above is wrong.

      • This video has gone completely ignored. Barry Unger, a former gov adviser on commercialization of disruptive technologies spoke at MIT about the way forward, with some predictions.

        I would highly recommend everyone to watch it from start to finish – maybe even make a article about it.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-OkFg8AW8A

      • I agree that money may talk – Rossi is very heavily outgunned, and it seems highly likely that he faces a larger group than Cherokee/IH alone (perhaps including the USG) who may not fight by the rules.

        If the thread of speculation that says Cherokee/IH has the IP for the 1MW reactor but not for the ‘X/Quark’ is correct then the game changes. This would mean that he is in a position to sacrifice the ‘LT’ IP with little personal damage, since others would already possess it. He could either give it away online, or releasing running prototypes to two or three competing (non-US) universities for testing, knowing that it’s secrets would be quickly uncovered, but also that there would be public confirmation of the reality of cold fusion.

        Release of the ‘LT’ IP in either way would immediately negate any commercial value to whatever IP IH has been able to acquire, and would allow Rossi to withdraw his suit as clearly IH wouldn’t pay for IP that was by then in the public domain. He would then be able to capitalise on the ‘Quark’ technology in the usual ways, as cold fusion would have been proven by replication (and commercilisation by many) of the LT type, removing the belief barrier.

        Widespread replication of the LT type would also rapidly create a history of safety (assuming that it is safe!) which would make the introduction of the more advanced variety much easier by providing a basis for safety certification. This is a potential barrier that seems to be constantly underestimated by both Rossi and a number of commenters, and which would be particularly damaging if the process could be interfered with by agents of those who might want to contain the technology.

  • AdrianAshfield

    Grief. I would have thought it obvious by now that Rossi’s forecast that only sale of working reactors would quell the critics is right.
    If you can’t accept the verdict of an ERV on the one year operation of a 1 MW plant, what makes you think anything else will?

  • kdk

    SPAWAR has done work with using it, LENR, on spent fuel, I thought anyway, and that would be interesting to learn more about. Admittedly, when you throw in these already radioactive fuels, it may not be something to play around with casually, or probably any heavier elements, would be my random guess.

  • bachcole

    I don’t see Rossi winning this fight, and if he doesn’t it will set back LENR for 5 or 10 more years. If he loses because he doesn’t have the goods, then we can add 5 or 10 more years on to that number. I have only enough hope to keep coming back here.

    The problem I see is that it will not matter if the E-Cat is super-wonderful or not. He is going to lose because I.H. has more money.

    If he should actually start selling working units of any sort of LENR, then everything I said above is wrong.

    • I agree that money may talk – Rossi is very heavily outgunned, and it seems highly likely that he faces a larger group than Cherokee/IH alone (perhaps including the USG) who may not fight by the rules.

      If the thread of speculation that says Cherokee/IH has the IP for the 1MW reactor but not for the ‘X/Quark’ is correct then the game changes. This would mean that Rossi is in a position to sacrifice the ‘LT’ IP with little damage to his own interests, since others would already possess it. He could either give it away online, or give running modules to two or three competing European universities for testing, knowing that it’s secrets would be quickly uncovered, but also that there would be public confirmation of the reality of cold fusion.

      Release of the ‘LT’ IP in either way would immediately negate any commercial value to whatever IP IH has been able to acquire, and would allow Rossi to either quietly settle his suit on condition that the whole agreement is made void, or (less certainly) to legally terminate IH’s rights to any further IP by allowing it to proceed.

      He would then be able to capitalise on the ‘Quark’ technology in the usual ways, as cold fusion would have been proven by replication of the LT type (and commercialisation by increasing numbers), automatically removing the public/commercial belief barrier. Widespread replication of the LT type would also rapidly create a history of safety (assuming that it is safe!) which would make the introduction of the more advanced variety much easier by providing a basis for safety certification.

      This (certification of cold fusion reactors to European and US safety standards) is a potential barrier that seems to be constantly underestimated by Rossi and others. The fact is that the slightest doubt about radiation hazard (real or inserted) would be enough to push the technology into the exclusive hands of the nuclear industry, possibly ending any hopes Rossi has of selling Quark-based domestic/private energy sources. The involvement of APCO shows how the fight will be fought, and there is every possibility that the process of safety certification will become a prime focus after the court case has been settled. The obvious possibility for interference would be the introduction of fake ‘safety concerns’ propagated by the MSM, to help with the manipulation of ‘public opinion’ and of politicians.

      Either way, vested energy interests would have the means to replace carbon and nuclear fuels for power generation, and also a possible monopoly. They would therefore have less reason than previously to try to stop AR, but I doubt they would give up until either an uncontrolled, unstoppable dissemination of the technology is under way, or they have successfully used underhand methods (read APCO) to acquire a complete monopoly on CF (together with import bans) in the Western nations. Of course if Russia, China, India, S. America etc. then chose to base their entire economies on cold fusion, such a monopoly would have a very limited life (a decade at most). None the less, two quite different short/medium term futures may hang on what Rossi does next.

    • PappyYokum

      Rossi has several million dollars at his disposal from the first two payments. I have seen records that indicate he has purchased real estate in Florida with it. His pockets are pretty deep right now.
      This court business could drag out for years, or it could be settled out of court.
      Rossi claimed the lawsuit freed him to advance the E-cat.
      Either he is going forward with building more plants and establishing a factory or he isn’t. I don’t see that the answer to the practicality of LENR is going to be determined as a result of the fight with IH.

  • Bruce__H

    Krivit draws conclusions that the true believers of Rossi don’t like, but his reporting is impeccable. What has he reported that has turned out to be wrong?

  • Not sure, but it could be both.

  • Andre Blum
    • Thomas Kaminski

      Torkell is reporting facts that he sees as someone who analyzes big data. He outed Weaver and has reported on the rise of attacks on LENR. I do not see that he is “loosing” it, rather reporting the facts from his unique perspective. His opinions and theories are stated as well, but I find his theories more plausible than not. What specific facts do you have that lead you to the conclusion that he is “loosing” it?

      • Zephir

        The ignorance of cold fusion is not result of conspiracy but pluralistic ignorance. This is an emergent groupthink effect, not centrally planed or organized action.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance

        Instead of it, any recall of conspiracy should be considered as an appeal to ridicule falacy, the purpose of which is to cover the pluralistic ignorance of mainstream physics community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

        • Bruce__H

          I fail to understand how you picture all this. Particularly the pluralistic ignorance part. You think that the general disparagement of cold fusion in the mainstream scientific community reflects a situation where most individuals scientists privately believe in LENR but officially reject it? That sounds wrong to me.

          I think that most mainstream scientists believe that the evidence base for LENR is lacking. Simple as that.

          • Zephir

            Pluralistic ignorance is based on widespread vicious circle of belief, that it has no meaning to replicate the controversial phenomena, because no successful replications of it exists. If everyone acts in this way, then the replications of cold fusion will really never come, because nobody actually does the replications – which enforces this belief in the eyes of mainstream more and more.

          • Bruce__H

            OK. This makes some sense. The problem of when do you pursue something and when don’t you is always with us. If people see a lack of evidence for something they tend to focus their energies elsewhere. I think it is reasonable and not vicious.

            I still don’t see how the term “pluralistic ignorance” maps on what you have described. The definition of the term contained in the links you posted seems different from the way you are using it.

          • Zephir

            /* If people see a lack of evidence for something they tend to focus their energies elsewhere. I think it is reasonable and not vicious */

            The intensity and obstinacy in which the important findings are dismissed is proportional the amount of grant money in alternative competitive research. The cold fusion gets ignored the most, just because it competes the research of alternative methods of energy production/conversion/transport and storage (from hot fusion and coal plants over solar and wind plants to batteries). All these areas of research will be inflicted with occasional success of cold fusion, so that all researchers have good reason to ignore the cold fusion as a single man. I also consider this socioeconomic stance logical – but it’s also sorta embezzlement of public money dedicated for research, so I don’t consider it ethical.

            Because we – tax payers – don’t pay the researchers for the methods, which would provide theme most safe and reliable income – but for the development of most effective way of energy production and handling possible.

            It’s our money, not the money of researchers.

          • Zephir

            In this article I’m explaining the possible nature of dark photons.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/05/27/a-fifth-force-of-nature-discovered/#comments

            The dark photons can be understood as a bubbles of negative curvature of space-time. These bubbles exist around very dense particles of matter just because the space-time is already heavily curved there in positive way. This positive curvature opens the way for negative curvature artifacts.

            In this sense the negativism of mainstream science against cold fusion and taboo of its research can be also understood as an emergent effect of huge amount of money, which the energetic research already attracts. This strong attractive force opens the way for strong repulsion of competitive research – analogy of dark matter effects or “fifth force”.

          • Zephir

            /* The definition of the term contained in the links you posted seems different from the way you are using it. */

            It’s just an application of definition of pluralistic ignorance. In social psychology, pluralistic ignorance is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, but incorrectly assume that most others accept it, and therefore go along with it.

            Analogously, many mainstream physicists are seriously interested about advances of cold fusion research and they’re watching it closely. But because they do believe, the cold fusion hasn’t been proven with other physicists, they’re follow the stance of the mainstream at public. And this stance is, the cold fusion doesn’t work.

            This is also described as “no one believes (that cold fusion isn’t really working) at private – but everyone thinks that everyone believes (that the cold fusion is really working).” In short, pluralistic ignorance is a bias about a social group, held by a social group itself (in this case the social group of mainstream physicists).

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance

          • Bruce__H

            Why do you think that many mainstream scientists secretly believe cold fusion is true?

          • Zephir

            Because they’re following its events closely at their blogs and elsewhere – even though they don’t penetrate the mainstream press. Usually such a research gets ignored.

          • Bruce__H

            They don’t believe it is true. They are just interested. Like me. I don’t accept that there is sufficient evidence that LENR as real but it is interesting and, after all, it is an empirical claim. Perhaps at some point someone will make a good case.

          • Zephir

            /* They are just interested. Like me */

            After then you don’t understand your own feelings: the people usually don’t give a sh*t about things, which they’re already convinced, they’re BS. Your interest about cold fusion (not to say about participation at the forum like this one) indicates, you’re still considering the possibility of cold fusion existence on background. This is just the controversy, which the pluralistic ignorance is all about.

    • Mats002

      I like the scientistic phenomena approach, LENR is not new in ‘official science’ but goes under other names, see this report from Stanford:

      http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/icfa/fall97/paper2/paper2.pdf

      They get X-Rays of the same kind as MFMP Glowstick 5.2 and the reason can be:

      The well known pinch effect at its lowest threshold or

      Hydrino (they describe it but no naming) or

      Rydberg matter.

      This was 19 years ago.

      • Green&Grinch

        No offense, I don’t believe in official and unofficial science. We all humbly know that we have limited knowledge of the universe, but we ought to admit that we are left with a perfectly working system and no idea of why it works. And this sounds strange to me. I have been following the e-cat since 2009, with honest interest. Yes, you are mentioning interesting theories but I hardly believe that any of them would fully describe what we have been told it’s happening. Great, there has been cases when radiation was produced, but none of them was understood, they were minimal, very unstable, and now everything works perfectly. What are we looking at? What’s this amazing matter? The day they will start providing real information is teh day we will be able to understand what’s the case. So far, we are all trying to fit existing theories on a total lack of info.

        • Zephir

          /* I don’t believe in official and unofficial science */

          The cold fusion never penetrated the peer-reviewed mainstream journals, which just represent the boundary between official and unofficial science. The official science is based on reproduction and verification of experiments – well, and the cold fusion experiments were never attempted to replicate in mainstream journals. Some cold fusion experiments (like the cold fusion at palladium patented by Tangberg 1927 for example) are nearly one century old – and today we still have no attempt for replication in mainstream journals published. So it’s evident, these findings represent a taboo (i.e. cognitive bubble of negative curvature) for mainstream science.

          • Green&Grinch

            Hold on, my sentence meant that science is divided between official and unofficial. Science is repeatable or it’s not science at all. All this matter about cold fusion/LENR works not accepted by “official science” should be rephrased in cold fusion/LENR not providing repeatable experimental procedures sufficient to convince the reviewer… Here is clearly not the case. The documents provided contain huge obscure areas such as the actual properties of the fuel. Given that I understand all the IP issues related to disclosing such info, I respect Rossi’s approach. I just believe that, so far, this is not science yet.

          • Zephir

            /* Science is repeatable or it’s not science at all. */

            I beg to disagree – in part. The difference is in the assumption, that the phenomena have no meaning to study, until we have no working coherent theory for their research. But many (actually the most) of breakthrough findings in the past were made by accident. But what the mainstream science does today is the systematical ignorance of phenomena, which have no theory developed yet. And at the moment, when these phenomena seem to violate the established theories, then this ignorance overgrows into plain dismissal of their research. Which is indeed bad: our scientists aren’t payed for purposeful confirmation of their pet theories only – on the contrary, they should be focused into their falsification instead according to current Carl Popper’s doctrine of science.

            We should simply admit the fact, that many significant findings were not driven by theory in repeatable way in the past and after then it has a good meaning to study even the phenomena, which cannot be replicated well under current level of understanding – simply because we don’t understand their hidden mechanisms/principles well. We just should continue in their analysis and to find these mechanisms later.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            OK, this is way off topic. But it is Memorial Day weekend and
            maybe we can think of the Dauntless and its pilot in the first part of this video (1:00 min) as a metaphor for the E-Cat and Rossi.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDPyvyt-MQ

          • This is the IH inside guy working the complete anti-lenr agenda. Compared to him MY, GW and Krivit looks like saints. His name is Fred Zoepfl and he is angry.
            http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/meet-fred-zoepfl-the-secret-weapon-of-ihapco-or-a-physisist-malfunctioning/

  • Andre Blum
  • DocSiders

    I doubt that Rossi has the goods.

    With a COP > 12, a closed loop demonstration would not have to reveal any secrets. Assemble an Isolated Closed Loop system comprised of: An ENCLOSED ECAT that is delivering Heat into a Stirling Engine (or other “heat-to-current” device) that is charging batteries + excess heat doing obvious work (boil water or run a bank of lights)… with the battery driving the inverters/frequency generators that drive the ECAT.

    Run that system in a public place for a few months with a live video internet feed.

    I could build such an assembly for under $10,000 in about a month.

    That is the kind of demonstration we all want to see…and would cost a heck of a lot less in time and money than the #@!?/ing 1 year fiasco.

    Rossi won’t do anything this obvious because he can’t.

    • roseland67

      Doc,
      I suggested identical 5+ years ago only run it in MIT Hagelstein lab class, but response was that it can’t be done Because Hagelstein was “awash in fear of retribution”.
      Was weak excuse then and weaker 5 years later
      Always reasons why it can’t be done, but never a way it can be.

      • DocSiders

        Hagelstein didn’t have the COP to pull off an isolated, totally off the grid self sustaining system. Rossi claims that he does, so let’s see it already.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Not necessary. The NANOR’s he had have very high COP, just small power output.

        • roseland67

          So Hagelsteins’s system was not scalable? If it worked as stated than it should be scalable, no?
          Even a replicable demo of excess milliwatts, if done at MIT lab would gain
          More traction than Rossi’s charade.

    • Steve Swatman

      That is the kind of demonstration we all want to see…and would cost a heck of a lot less in time and money than the #@!?/ing 1 year fiasco.

      Everyone who does not want to accept the possibility, wants to see a different test, funny that innit.

      • DocSiders

        Steve,

        I’m pulling for Rossi, but fear he could be fooling himself. I don’t think Rossi is a fraudster.

        We may not see the Fabio Penon report for years since it’s being held hostage in the court system.

        Short of a live, public, closed loop, totally off the grid demonstration (WHERE NOBODY COULD POINT TO A POSSIBLE OUTSIDE ENERGY SOURCE) the skeptopaths will always be able to generate enough doubt for the press to be able to continue to ignore (what is possibly the story of the century). And Rossi couldn’t fool himself.

        Why did Rossi and IH throw all that time and money into the “1 Year” when a far more obvious, less expensive, much quicker and far more convincing demonstration was possible.

        And I never did understand why a whole year would be needed… The year was up months ago and look where we are.

        • Steve Swatman

          A long term test is necessary to prove that:

          Its safe, no dangerous radiation, control equipment works, its not going to melt down or blow up.

          The Charge has long term reliability.

          The charge is cost effective.

          The E-cat produces long term reliable heat.

          The components of the E-cat are reliable and fit for purpose.

          The heat/steam produced is sutable for applications (the customer)

          As we have seen in earlier tests, no matter how the test has been setup the sceptics will tear it down, hidden wires, batteries, nuclear radiations, the wrong type of testbed, the wrong screw in section 1a, the position and type of test equipment was wrong or in the wrong place, Rossi is a convicted felon, etc etc etc…

          Now I would suggest and it would appear that Mr Rossi has proven the E-cat to at least one customer, proven the reliability of the charge, the reliability of the end product (steam) the reliability of the control mechanism, the quality of the product and the safety of the product, certainly enough for the customer to order 3 units.

          IH, the US and the IH territories are not relevant so long as the E-cat can play in other parts of the world, production starts, the product can be sold anywhere. or at least this how I see the current situation and the results of the past year.

  • Jouni Tuomela

    This research was done some 100 years ago, from F&P is only a quarter of that.
    “In other words we have an input energy of 103 cal/gram molecule and an output energy of 90.000 cal/gram molecule. In conventional science this seems to be violating the law of conservation of energy. Langmuir explained this (however, not very convincingly) by the heat being carried forward from the arc to the metal surface. One area which certainly deserves the attention of modern science, is the replication of Langmuirs experiments using high-tech measurement equipment.”

    http://www.chavascience.com/index.php/en/hydrogen/langmuir-excess-energy-from-hydrogen

    Perhaps this should be researched first, is it really happening?

  • This video has gone completely ignored. Barry Unger, a former gov adviser on commercialization of disruptive technologies spoke at MIT about the way forward, with some predictions.

    I would highly recommend everyone to watch it from start to finish – maybe even make a article about it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-OkFg8AW8A

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Maybe Michel Vadenberghe (CEO of LENR Cities) can find a way
    to get these R/C model plane enthusiasts to retrofit their planes with LENR powered turbine jet engines (or QuarkX powered E-Fan motors). Bypass the mainstream and keep the LENR movement fun and unstoppable.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNi_-8m1tZ8

    • Alan DeAngelis

      PS
      Heat the incoming air with an E-Cat (may need a battery to
      initiate the reaction) instead of a kerosene combustion chamber.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3jE-PXV-68

    • Ophelia Rump

      The military would immediately freak. Toy jet circles the glob without refueling, Military Industrial Complex in turmoil. Pentagon holds special hearings to assess the threat potential, is the U.S.A vulnerable to Chinese children and their toys?

  • wonderboy

    Come June when IH statements come out, LENR will take a big hit I think. It’s just going to put a lot of negative attention on Rossi and which will impact all those doing research on LENR.

    • Ophelia Rump

      The entire field does not get enough attention for the worst possible outcome to make a significant difference. There is nothing to lose.

    • Ged

      It’s going to make for interesting times!

      The exact timing does depend on if IH doesn’t try to delay again (why?). Hopefully the court won’t allow any more can kicking, but I don’t know how many times a defendant can push back publishing their defense.

      Edit: looks like the Judge ordered a joint scheduling report due on 6/30, so I don’t think any more delays can push past that date? We’ll see, but I am confident we’ll see something on the 12th.

      Edit 2: the case has been recatagorized as a patent case, so it’s possible we won’t really see anything that interesting and instead just defense focused on the patent(s).

      Edit 3: Actually, looks like the case has been returned to being a contract (“Contract – other contract”) case, so hopefully that will flush out the best goods from both sides.

      • I would bet a $20 that the can will be kicked at least one more time.

        • roseland67

          Multiple continuances, reclassifications,
          Ending in an unpublished out of court settlement.

      • Chapman

        You know, given the opportunities Rossi is pursuing in Europe he has NO reason to seek a quick resolution of the IH issue.

        I am just saying that right now everything regarding IH is up in the air. There will be no development or investments in that direction until the legal issue is resolved. Neither for IH, nor his “sub-licensees” to whom they passed Rossi’s IP.

        The 89 mil really is peanuts. If IH stays locked up for a prolonged period and Rossi’s European distribution is able to establish market share and manufacturing momentum, then IH will never catch up.

        Rossi may be as clever OUTSIDE the lab as IN.

      • Bob

        IH did not delay the first time. Rossi filed an amendment that pushed the date back.
        .
        Who is kicking the can?

        • Ged

          Uh… no, nothing new added by Rossi after 4/5; rather, IH submitted waivers to stay their publication date (actually, each named defendent submitted a waiver). Edit: see the docket here https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/11135976/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al . Rossi seems to have simply accepted their waiver and executed the service instead of challenging it (good thing to do). If someone is a lawyer in this field they could correct me and I would be thankful.

          Also, IH could publish a defense at -any time-; so yes, IH is can kicking, but they have been allowed to do so.

      • Ciaranjay

        I don’t sign up to some of the wilder theories so I would expect that IH would want things to progess and be resolved.
        Logically IH and their investors should want to speed up LENR commercialisation, not slow it down.
        If IH do initiate delaying tactics then I would take that as an indication that they do have something to hide.

    • Kl logic

      It occurred to me today in its most simple form. If IH felt like they could bring the ecat to market, they would never do anything to threaten their exclusive rights. Those rights are too valuable. There has to be some aspect of this situation that stands in their way to make and sell a viable product. Either it does not work or they don’t have enough knowledge to make it work on their own.

    • Private Citizen

      Lawyers playing for time and trying to grind Rossi down might delay any release beyond June.

      Mark Steyn v. Michael Mann supposed libel case has dragged on for 5 years and still no trial.

  • sam

    This also will keep it from drifting into
    obscurity.
    Frank Acland
    May 26, 2016 at 8:52 AM
    Dear Andrea,

    Please forgive me for being morbid, but this is a question that any inventor I think must consider — if you were to die today, what would the fate of the E-Cat QuarkX be?

    Many thanks,

    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    May 26, 2016 at 10:18 AM
    Frank Acland:
    The problem has been duly assessed. My work would be perfectly continued without me.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • bachcole

      That is reassuring. And thanks, Frank, for having the ‘nads to ask it.

      • Rossi told me so already back in 2011.

      • clovis ray

        Hi, guys, he said once that he had at least 3 failsafe, mechanisms, that would kick in, on the occasion, of foul play, one was to dump the secret, on the internet,

  • jousterusa

    One way to improve upon 1989 would be to identify the members of the House Armed Services *HAS) Committee, and then ask them if they would like any info on LENR to question the SecDef intelligently on Sept. 22. Another would be to contact science editors, who probably still feel burned by 1989, tell them about the HAs and the SecDef, and offer any assistance you can. If both of these campaigns were conducted in an organized way, it might make a very big difference. As it stands, in all likelihood there will be no hearing on LENR on Sept. 22, as the SecDef will probably request an extension of time, and it will putter on from there for years or forever. It remains the main shot we will get in the coming years, and we would more or less have to hijack it. As always, getting voters involved is the best chance of defeating Congressional apathy.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Galileo Galilei, Giordano Bruno, F&P and the guy in this
      video all went before government committees. Maybe there’s a better way to go about this.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOLdLdSwe2A

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Are we ready for LENR? Or, is society going to be allowed to accept LENR?

        “Now the essential point in this part of Vico’s theory is that society, rather than being composed of an aggregate of individual people, really constituted a sort of unity, i.e. had a unified structure, and the sort of beliefs, attitudes, etc., which individuals have are to be explained by their place in this structure. To know, for example, the beliefs and attitudes which lay behind a certain course of action, one didn’t need to have access to the hidden interior of an individual’s mind, nor even to the details of all the specific experiences he had had. What one needed was some appreciation of the general nature of the various parts of society in which he moved.”
        http://www.i-c-r.org.uk/publications/monographarchive/Monograph1.pdf, pg 8.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1f/5a/78/1f5a789abb12d6eae1e2e3330f668fb1.jpg

      There may have been another reason for repeatedly trashing Pons and Fleischmann’s work.

      From page 49 of Frank Close’s 1991 book Too Hot to Handle. http://www.amazon.com/Too-Hot-

      “…Tritium is an essential fuel in thermonuclear weapons; it is also a product of dd fusion – the very process that the Utah chemists claimed to be able to make happen inexpensively in a test tube. The US military were already spending vast sums on making tritium for warheads and the reactors that were used for this process had been closed, pending repairs, in 1988 as a result of nervousness about reactor safety following the Chernobyl
      accident. The repair and building new reactors would cost billions of dollars, so when test-tube fusion entered the scene the military took note at once, recognizing the potential of test-tube fusion as a source of much-needed tritium. This sort of application of test-tube fusion also impressed Indian Government scientists who
      decided that western nations would soon classify test-tube fusion as a secret; thus India mounted an immediate test-tube fusion research effort so as to ‘get in on the ground floor’….”

  • jousterusa

    One way to improve upon 1989 would be to identify the members of the House Armed Services *HAS) Committee, and then ask them if they would like any info on LENR to question the SecDef intelligently on Sept. 22. Another would be to contact science editors, who probably still feel burned by 1989, tell them about the HAs and the SecDef, and offer any assistance you can. If both of these campaigns were conducted in an organized way, it might make a very big difference. As it stands, in all likelihood there will be no hearing on LENR on Sept. 22, as the SecDef will probably request an extension of time, and it will putter on from there for years or forever. It remains the main shot we will get in the coming years, and we would more or less have to hijack it. As always, getting voters involved is the best chance of defeating Congressional apathy.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Galileo Galilei, Giordano Bruno, F&P and the guy in this
      video all went before government committees. Maybe there’s a better way to go about this.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOLdLdSwe2A

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Are we ready for LENR? Or, is society going to be allowed to accept LENR?

        “Now the essential point in this part of Vico’s theory is that society, rather than being composed of an aggregate of individual people, really constituted a sort of unity, i.e. had a unified structure, and the sort of beliefs, attitudes, etc., which individuals have are to be explained by their place in this structure. To know, for example, the beliefs and attitudes which lay behind a certain course of action, one didn’t need to have access to the hidden interior of an individual’s mind, nor even to the details of all the specific experiences he had had. What one needed was some appreciation of the general nature of the various parts of society in which he moved.”
        http://www.i-c-r.org.uk/publications/monographarchive/Monograph1.pdf, pg 8.

  • kdk

    I guess we have very different experiences with them then.

  • adriano

    Scientific community should reveal to the public that there is a scientific phenomena that is in contraddiction with current laws of physics and deeper research on it is needed in order to discover and understand what we dont know already the world around us.

    Approching public opinion with sentences like “We just found a new way to have cheap and nearly illimited energy” is not just killer for LENR itself, is also not true.

    Nobody have ever discovered a cheap and illimeted source of energy until now and everybody that claims the opposite is simply a liar.

    Is very simple: is LENR a phenomena that we need to approach in order to understand what we know or what we dont know about the universe we live in or is LENR a machine to make money?

    Based on how you will answer to this question you will approach public opinion in different ways and this will determine if LENR will be buried again or not.

    • Mats002

      I like the scientistic phenomena approach, LENR is not new in ‘official science’ but goes under other names, see this report from Stanford:

      http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/icfa/fall97/paper2/paper2.pdf

      They get X-Rays of the same kind as MFMP Glowstick 5.2 and the reason can be:

      The well known pinch effect at its lowest threshold or

      Hydrino (they describe it but no naming) or

      Rydberg matter.

      This was 19 years ago.

    • Chapman

      The problem is that just that kind of overinflated hype is exactly WHY the research is avoided.

      LENR does not involve any phenomena that are in contradiction to “current laws of physics”. I think that is really the point.

      It is not a way to make unlimited free energy. These statements only marginalize the science.

      You burn wood to make heat. You burn Gasoline to make MORE heat. Fuel is consumed, heat released.

      Fission reactors consume Uranium, heat is released.

      LENR consumes Hydrogen and Lithium, Heat is released.

      Nothing magic going on. No laws of physics are being broken, or need be rewritten. It is just clever engineering; putting existing systems together in a unique configuration in order to generate a unprecedented result. That is called PROGRESS.

      In the end, the only thing that can bury LENR is the metric tons of Bovine Excrement that morons pile upon it.

      I suspect these great minds believed Television and Digital Watches required a fundamental review of our understanding of the “Laws of Physics” also.

      • roseland67

        Chapman,
        In he end the only thing that can bury LENR
        Is that is doesn’t work.
        If it works as stated and excess heat can be
        Achieved, scaled, safe, cost effective, reliable, repeatable then it doesn’t matter how much excretment you pile on top.

        • Chapman

          Agreed.

          LENR, once fully developed and certified, will create it’s own market, regardless of naysayers and the denials of skeptics. Half the world could well refuse to believe and insist it’s a scam, but that will not prevent the other half from standing in line to buy.

          • Zephir

            The only question is, if this breakthrough will come after some major global conflict, or if we succeed in its implementation without it. We shouldn’t forget, the implementation of nuclear fission also did come after II WWW and the human history repeats in waves. Our time for peaceful implementation of cold fusion is not unlimited.

      • adriano

        Two elements merging together at low temperature is not in contradiction with laws of physycs? I guess I have lost something here…

  • It is getting worse. Weaver making threats on legal actions and researching Swedish law ….
    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/team-weaver-threatening-sifferkoll-with-legal-actions-due-to-uncovering-connections-and-inconsistencies/

    • psi2u2

      Remarkable.

    • Copied from my post on Sifferkoll:

      ‘It is very difficult to see any alternative explanation for such a threat. Unless Weaver reads Swedish and has access to Swedish law books, then someone on the Cherokee/APCO/Jones Day team must have contacted a Swedish lawyer to obtain the appropriate legal reference to threaten you with.

      If anyone had any doubts that Weaver is just an unpleasant mouthpiece for Darden and his backers then this bit of nastiness should dispel them.’

      I wonder if Mats has received anything similar?

      • Nothing. Zero.
        I’m still wondering when someone will knock my door. I happen to be neighbour with the Russian embassy, and not even the Russians have showed any interest.

        • sam

          Mats You must like being we’re it’s hot.
          Russia mocks Sweden over ‘James Bond’ conspiracies
          The Local · 20 May 2016, 16:44
          Russia’s embassy in Stockholm has mocked Sweden for peddling James Bond-style conspiracy theories after an expert suggested Moscow may be behind the collapse of a radio mast.

          Swedes want answers from Russia after Nato warning
          Russian fury at Swedes over occupation series
          Russian spies pose as diplomats in Sweden

          • The funny thing is that the newsroom of The Local (local news on Sweden produced by expats in Sweden – very good news site!) is located just across the street from the Russian Embassy and from where I live 😉

    • Ged

      This is really odd. One possibility it implies is that IH is terrified of Rossi getting his factory and market share. I doubt they can make good on their threats and are just making noise to try to scare Rossi or his clients to hold him back; but why?

    • Roger Roger

      Do you believe he’s really who he is? that sounds absurd to me, why would such a person lose time raging/bragging on the internet?

      • kdk

        He’s the goon responsible for enforcement. Sifferkoll has shown initiative in tracking their connections.

      • psi2u2

        It is hard to believe, isn’t it?

    • help_lenr

      It is entertainment (not for you personally of course).

      By the way, I think that some of your speculations are far fetched (but IH is under a pressure, their negative propaganda fails).

    • kdk

      If you have the money for a sidearm, you might want to get one. Hopefully, you don’t have one of the newer cars that can be remote-controlled like Michael Hastings.

    • Gerald

      This must be a joke, if you get sued its the best evidence something is really wrong in our democrazy. You don’t do anything wrong, just giving your opinion based on facts. Wrong or right, I don’t know.

      I stop now, was typing an assay, but your thoughts about europe and de persian empire are spot on.

    • Bob Greenyer

      People do not sue people unless there is meaningful money involved, Rossi is suing IH – and IH will fight because it is over a shed load.

  • Ged

    Uh… no, IH submitted waivers to stay their publication date (actually, each named defendent submitted a waiver). Go look at the docket, tge actual court documents are published there. Rossi simply accepted their waiver instead of challenging it (good thing to do).

  • US_Citizen71

    I’m guessing you don’t do any web-hosting. Websites can and do collect information on their visitors computers. The data he is presenting is for a visitor’s computer not a website. The computer was Windows 7 model, the browser was Chrome and the monitor was 1650×1050. The IP address goes back to a block reserved for the State Department.

    • Rossi told me so already back in 2011.

      • psi2u2

        It is hard to believe, isn’t it?

  • Bob Matulis

    #1 will settle things. Lack of reliable replication has been the critics main weapon – and has some legitimacy. If and when a recipe can allow any University to replicate and confirm the reality of LENR will be established.

    • Zephir

      One thing is for sure: the finding of cold fusion threats the research jobs, grants and social credit of too many scientists at once for to believe in open support of cold fusion by mainstream physics – no matter how well it was or will get confirmed experimentally.

      Therefore the findings and observations which could gain only scientific importance have no chance for success here and the cold fusion must be commercialized first for to change in paradigm of mainstream physicists thinking.

      • Chapman

        Damn Zephir, between this post and your observations about the casimir effect I am beginning to think you might just be worth listening to. That is not a sideways insult – I am saying that while some of your thoughts are a little “out there” you repeatedly hit on little nuggets of wisdom and insight.

        I am not the ass I may appear to be from some of my frustrated posts. I enjoy reading about “unconventional” theories, as long as they are grounded on sound principles and recorded observations. All great theories start out as speculation and slowly change from possible to probable to likely as more observations support it, and no observations arise to refute it.

        Still, I draw the line at warp drives, reality responding to conscious observation, and honest used car salesman. But I would like to read more on your thoughts regarding anything else.

      • roseland67

        Don’t see it that way, Zephir,
        Just the opposite in fact.
        IF, LENR proves to be what we have been lead to believe it is, (and so far it is not), the possibilities for research would be staggering. In fact, I would imagine that many of the existing physicists would be tasked to LENR development, understanding and exploitation.

        • Zephir

          /* LENR proves to be what we have been lead to believe it is, (and so far it is not), */

          We already have thousands of positive results about LENR http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat

          But the cold fusion research is ignored with mainstream science and it’s maintained mostly be volunteers only. Try to imagine, how the research of Higgs boson, gravitational waves or let say hot fusion would advance, if it would be supported with volunteers only. The practical applications would be hundred years ahead…

          The practical consequence of this ignorance will be, the firsts cold fusion megawatt plants will be based on effect, which is denied by mainstream physics, which routinely confirms the phenomena at the picowatt scale. This is an ignorance in the range of eighteen orders of magnitude!

        • kdk

          However the problem now is that they would get sacked for doing it, not once it’s already accepted.

  • Bob Matulis

    #1 will settle things. Lack of reliable replication has been the critics main weapon – and has some legitimacy. If and when a recipe can allow any University to replicate and confirm the reality of LENR will be established.

    • help_lenr

      No needs for any confirmation by prestige academy.
      THIS GAME IS OVER. The research of LENR using the ideas of rossi will continue fast with or without the confirmation of prestige academy. The denial game of academy since POND FLEISCHMANN experiment till rossi experiments IS OVER.

      I don’t see the point in this article and this thread. From now on – only the market and armed forces speak, with or without rossi’s contributions. The academy talk will be ignored. The academy word had value only while the debate was theoretical. Now it is not theoretic any more, it is a practical issue: real devices are in humans possesion in several years, for a modest amount of investment.

      Any state which will avoid development or acceptance of LENR will loose its position in economy and military state. Therefore the race will begin soon, or actually started. The only questions are who will win the race, and how LENR will be used. I’ll bet that first major devlopment will start as army devices, as happened mostly in history, much like success of airplanes in wolrd war I.

      • psi2u2

        Do you have some inside information that leads you to this confidence or is this your interpretation of the same tea leaves that the rest of us are reading?

        • help_lenr

          Only common sense, and interpretations of historical developments of inventions.

          Academy has only impact on theoretic questions, academy has no impact on inventions which have immediate practical value (with or without theoretic explanation).

          Most LENR prototypes now need low budget, and practical devices bring money and power if successful. (Power interest military forces). Many men, corporations and govorments are interested in such technologies.

          Common sense and knowing history of technology do not need inner information.

  • roseland67

    Chapman,
    In he end the only thing that can bury LENR
    Is that is doesn’t work.
    If it works as stated and excess heat can be
    Achieved, scaled, safe, cost effective, reliable, repeatable then it doesn’t matter how much excretment you pile on top.

    • Chapman

      Agreed.

      LENR, once fully developed and certified, will create it’s own market, regardless of naysayers and the denials of skeptics. Half the world could well refuse to believe and insist it’s a scam, but that will not prevent the other half from standing in line to buy.

      • Zephir

        The only question is, if this breakthrough will come after some major global conflict, or if we succeed in its implementation without it. We shouldn’t forget, the implementation of nuclear fission also did come after II WWW and the human history repeats in waves. Our time for peaceful implementation of cold fusion is not unlimited.

  • Zavod

    Ultimately, it is up to the individual observer to remain reasonably skeptical of grandiose claims made by people who fail time and again to deliver. Rossi is one such person.

    • help_lenr

      There were no significant failures made by rossi. Non significant failures are not counted, only the pope does not make any failure.

      Repeating lies 1000 times do not make these lies a truth. Some skeptics repeat their lies endless time, those skeptics should be ignored because what they say is only noise.

  • Warthog

    There is no place in real science for “suspicion”.

    And no, that is not what “did in” the Pons and Fleischmann results, but bad science done by the supposed “negative replicators”, who IGNORED all the rules of science by not waiting for Pons and Fleischmann’s official publication of details to try replications..doing stupid things like trying to measure the P&F cell dimensions using a ruler on a TV screen.

    Yet, because the labs doing that poor science were labelled MIT, Cal Tech (and I forget the big name British lab which was also involved), their “arguments” carried the day, despite their poor experimental work.

    Attempts to replicate the experiments of the “negative replicators” done years later by experienced LENR researchers found and exposed the procedural errors in their work…basically not running long enough the reach the needed level of deuterium loading.

    It should be noted that P & F’s work WAS replicated almost immediately by Bockris, who took the simple step of calling Fleischmann on the phone and getting the real experimental details, and then carrying out his groups work using those details.

  • psi2u2

    Do you have some inside information that leads you to this confidence or is this your interpretation of the same tea leaves that the rest of us are reading?

  • Thomas Kaminski

    I believe that the disclosure of something real at high COP with partial confirmation by independent groups has forever changed the world. To make LENR grow, it clearly needs a reliable product with a big economic advantage. I suspect that the large thermal plant could be one such approach. I think a more rapid deployment of the technology would happen if it was small and affordable by a large number of people.

    I signed up for the small LENR device. Here in Wisconsin, a number of homes are heated by propane — an expensive way to go. Surprisingly, many use in-room, stand-alone propane heaters with CO issues. Accidents happens and people have died. Could a LENR heater fare worse?

    The rise of drones illustrates what happens when technology becomes affordable. First, the big guys (in this case, the military) use it at a cost of millions per drone. Then technology advances, making dense energy sources, lightweight motors with inexpensive drive electronics, and most importantly, inertial navigation and guidance components. BOOM! The market explodes. Government tries to prevent it, but market forces prevail and now small drones cannot be stopped. They have many economic benefits including surveying roads, searching for lost children, photographing from new perspectives, delivering goods and surveying farmer fields. The farm market alone in the US is estimated to be over $US70 Billion.

    Will Rossi prevail? The jury will be shortly out on that. I do like to root for the little guy verses the big corporations, but what will happen in the short term will not change the long term results. I firmly believe that the LENR (not so) secret technology, now out, will prevail.

    • Gerard McEk

      Thomas, you have no idea what LENR will do for drones. If it is true what AR is saying for over a year now, that he is developing a QuarkX-turbine, and it works (F8), then the end of private cars will quickly come to an end and affordable hired drones will fill the air. You just order a drone and within 10 minutes you can enter it. You tell it where to go and off it goes. No streets, no cues straight to you destination, at a speed of a jet plane. Only maybe the last few 100 yards you have to walk, from the public landing place (somewhere on the empty street) to you final desteny.
      I just hope they aren’t allowed to fly everywhere (like around my house ;))

      • Thomas Kaminski

        Gerard I do have an idea what QuarkX would do to the long range flight, but it will take a little time to get the electrical power needed (on the order of 400 watts for a 1KG quad with 10 minutes of flight). It would be cool if the amateur modeling people came up with a jet engine based on LENR. I can remember as a kid seeing “buzz-bomb” type of engines powering U-Control planes. I still remember the cherry red glow of the thrust tube and the echos off the local mountains after the fuel ran out. Pretty impressive.

        And don’t worry about them flying around your house — the government will protect you. At least that portion of the government that doesn’t already know everything about you through your internet connections.

    • cashmemorz

      I’m glad you brought up the CO incidents. If the government is so tied into fossil fuels that it allows CO poisoning then that same government has little or no say in the occasional and short lived gammas and or even short duration neutrons that are SOMETIMES emitted by LENR devices. If it ever came to a court case regarding that point then your example should be pulled into court. However, the government or DOE or other agency could simply use the reasoning that they must update the quality of life by preventing even minor incidences of any kind of radiation as a point of progress for the betterment of the citizenry. It might all come down to which side of the bed the judge got up on the day of decision.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        Good point. Don’t forget the tanks of gasoline and diesel fuel sitting like bombs in garages and the myriad gas and petrol pipelines leaking at inopportune times. There are several natural gas explosions a year in Wisconsin.

        • cashmemorz

          One has to ask what is the “potential” harm that “might” come from using a new untried technology. Anything can be imagined, but until something actually happens to harm a significant number of incidences then there is no basis for such “looking for trouble” where there is none. But some are looking for anything that might put a bad skew on the LENR or more likely Rossi effect.

  • Zephir

    One thing is for sure: the finding of cold fusion threats the research jobs, grants and social credit of too many scientists at once for to believe in open support of cold fusion by mainstream physics – no matter how well it was or will get confirmed experimentally.

    Therefore the findings and observations which could gain only scientific importance have no chance for success here and the cold fusion must be commercialized first for to change the paradigm of mainstream physicists thinking. The cold fusion ignorance is no exception here: for example the antigravity research or room temperature superconductor findings are handled with the same pluralistic ignorance.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/4kd6do/in_theory_is_theoretical_physics_in_crisis/d3f14rt

    This ignorance is typical and it manifest itself by lack of attempts for independent replication of all findings, which are inconvenient for mainstream science from some reason. The mainstream physics likes progress, but this progress must be solely gradualist and expected/predicted with established theories, which are gradually adjusted with parameters in similar way, like the epicycle model of solar system. Once some finding advances this gradualist paradigm and it goes one step further, it gets dismissed instead.

    “When you’re one step ahead of the crowd you’re a genius. When you’re two steps ahead, you’re a crackpot.” — Rabbi Shlomo Riskin (Feb. 1998)

    • Chapman

      Damn Zephir, between this post and your observations about the casimir effect I am beginning to think you might just be worth listening to. That is not a sideways insult – I am saying that while some of your thoughts are a little “out there” you repeatedly hit on little nuggets of wisdom and insight.

      I am not the ass I may appear to be from some of my frustrated posts. I enjoy reading about “unconventional” theories, as long as they are grounded on sound principles and recorded observations. All great theories start out as speculation and slowly change from possible to probable to likely as more observations support it, and no observations arise to refute it.

      Still, I draw the line at warp drives, reality responding to conscious observation, and honest used car salesman. But I would like to read more on your thoughts regarding anything else.

      • roseland67

        Zephir is sharp, no doubt, a little bit squirrelly sometimes, but sharp.

        • Zephir

          I’d prefer to say, I’m well informed. Today it’s not quite necessary to be very bright or inventive, we just should keep on mind the previous results and not to forget them fast – or we will remain always at the very beginning of thoughts. The good memory and ability to combine known facts, rather than analytical thinking can be useful at the era of emergent hyperdimensional physics.

          For deterministically thinking people such a holistic way of thinking may look incoherent, but this is simply how the hyperdimensional objects look-like from our low-dimensional perspective: we cannot extrapolate everything smoothly, we should always “connect the dots” i.e. seemingly unrelated indicia at least a bit: which is something, what the deterministically thinking people don’t like and refuse to do. After all, why do you think the massive bodies are composed of mutually isolated atoms and molecules? They’re just hyperdimensional objects, which we can observe from low-dimensional perspective only.

          http://i.imgur.com/j0chDOj.gif

    • roseland67

      Don’t see it that way, Zephir,
      Just the opposite in fact.
      IF, LENR proves to be what we have been lead to believe it is, (and so far it is not), the possibilities for research would be staggering. In fact, I would imagine that many of the existing physicists would be tasked to LENR development, understanding and exploitation.

      • Zephir

        /* LENR proves to be what we have been lead to believe it is, (and so far it is not), */

        We already have thousands of positive results about LENR http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat

        But the cold fusion research is ignored with mainstream science and it’s maintained mostly be volunteers only. Try to imagine, how the research of Higgs boson, gravitational waves or let say hot fusion would advance, if it would be supported with volunteers only. The practical applications would be hundred years ahead…

        The practical consequence of this ignorance will be, the firsts cold fusion megawatt plants will be based on effect, which is denied by mainstream physics, which routinely confirms the phenomena at the picowatt scale. This is an ignorance in the range of eighteen orders of magnitude!

      • kdk

        However the problem now is that they would get sacked for doing it, not once it’s already accepted.

    • Zephir

      I also don’t think, that the commercialization of cold fusion must be done via megawatt-sized plants for industrial usage. The people just need some kit, which would enable them to make sure, that the cold fusion is running in sustainable way. Such an kit hasn’t to be very expensive at all.

      Before some time reports about eternal LENR bulb soaked at public: this bulb has been formed with palladium sponge inside the deuterium filled bulb together with another electrode. Once the nuclear reaction had been initiated by glow discharge, then the palladium sponge continued to glow for prolonged time. The demonstration of LENR with self-heated spheres has been also presented at NI Week 2013, and so on.

      http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/NIWeekCravens.pdf

      The people just should have the opportunity to BUY IT at e-shop by single click – which would close the mouth to all deniers of cold fusion. I mean the evidence, which everyone can touch and ask for itself: if this effect is real, why the hell we don’t force our scientists to utilize it? Why I should pay for my electricity distributed over the net? Without open commercialization the deniers will always have the last word.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1f/5a/78/1f5a789abb12d6eae1e2e3330f668fb1.jpg

    There may have been another reason for repeatedly trashing Pons and Fleischmann’s work.

    From page 49 of Frank Close’s 1991 book Too Hot to Handle. http://www.amazon.com/Too-Hot-

    “…Tritium is an essential fuel in thermonuclear weapons; it is also a product of dd fusion – the very process that the Utah chemists claimed to be able to make happen inexpensively in a test tube. The US military were already spending vast sums on making tritium for warheads and the reactors that were used for this process had been closed, pending repairs, in 1988 as a result of nervousness about reactor safety following the Chernobyl
    accident. The repair and building new reactors would cost billions of dollars, so when test-tube fusion entered the scene the military took note at once, recognizing the potential of test-tube fusion as a source of much-needed tritium. This sort of application of test-tube fusion also impressed Indian Government scientists who
    decided that western nations would soon classify test-tube fusion as a secret; thus India mounted an immediate test-tube fusion research effort so as to ‘get in on the ground floor’….”

  • Roland

    4. The Fabio Penon report being released:

    The report is to be entered into evidence, along with an enormous volume of acquired data in support of the report conclusions, under oath as to its veracity. I would rate this as very likely to occur.

    There’s an ancient adage in the legal profession; speed is the friend of truth. Granting IH doesn’t start dragging their heels (the converse adage being that when truth is not your friend delay, delay and delay some more) the report will be in the public record soon enough and the contents will already have been subject to rigorous scrutiny.

    5. Andrea Rossi demonstrating an E-Cat reactor clearly running in a controlled self-sustain mode at a high COP in a public and convincing way.

    I would take this as general, though not particularly subtle, encouragement for Rossi to knock it out of the park in the post client demo, for the interested public, that he proposed recently; I heartily concur as the ship has to leave the dock at some point in time.

    Once the ship leaves the dock it is helpful to the general enterprise if the engine engages with great reliability as this makes everyone feel so much better than failure inevitably does; to that end it’s usually better to be certain than to make the scheduled day and hour in a state of uncertainty.

    The potential audience for this, internet, demo can be expected to be highly diverse.

    The point will be to tick off all the boxes serious players will want ticked off, at this level of initial presentation, so that they are prepared to become engaged in the process of learning more about the economic potential that this technology offers, within the scope of their existing businesses, and how LENR will shape their businesses into the future.

    The moment that the economic realities take hold in the minds of the early movers, a few minutes with a calculator should suffice, an unstoppable movement of monumental import will be underway.

    Scientists will, of course, want to know everything; they will be disappointed. The open minded among them will be intrigued, the experimentally minded will be inspired, the ambitious will redouble their efforts, the willfully obdurate will seek fresh chinks in the armour and the ideologically opposed will, as usual, learn little or nothing.

    In so far as scalability is intrinsic to the Quark’s modular design, and that the available output modalities will interface readily with existing infrastructure, this single seed crystal has the potential to precipitate rapid and sweeping changes effecting economics, geopolitics, the planetary ecology, space exploration and habitation and the prospect of a viable high concept future for humanity.

    So yes, some thoughtfulness about exactly how to present the Quark to the planet is appropriate.

  • Roland

    4. The Fabio Penon report being released:

    The report is to be entered into evidence, along with an enormous volume of acquired data in support of the report conclusions, under oath as to its veracity. I would rate this as very likely to occur.

    There’s an ancient adage in the legal profession; speed is the friend of truth. Granting IH doesn’t start dragging their heels (the converse adage being that when truth is not your friend delay, delay and delay some more) the report will be in the public record soon enough and the contents will already have been subject to rigorous scrutiny.

    5. Andrea Rossi demonstrating an E-Cat reactor clearly running in a controlled self-sustain mode at a high COP in a public and convincing way.

    I would take this as general, though not particularly subtle, encouragement for Rossi to knock it out of the park in the post client demo, for the interested public, that he proposed recently; I heartily concur as the ship has to leave the dock at some point in time.

    Once the ship leaves the dock it is helpful to the general enterprise if the engine engages with great reliability as this makes everyone feel so much better than failure inevitably does; to that end it’s usually better to be certain than to make the scheduled day and hour in a state of uncertainty.

    The potential audience for this, internet, demo can be expected to be highly diverse.

    The point will be to tick off all the boxes serious players will want ticked off, at this level of initial presentation, so that they are prepared to become engaged in the process of learning more about the economic potential that this technology offers, within the scope of their existing businesses, and how LENR will shape their businesses into the future.

    The moment that the economic realities take hold in the minds of the early movers, a few minutes with a calculator should suffice, an unstoppable movement of monumental import will be underway.

    Scientists will, of course, want to know everything; they will be disappointed. The open minded among them will be intrigued, the experimentally minded will be inspired, the ambitious will redouble their efforts, the willfully obdurate will seek fresh chinks in the armour and the ideologically opposed will, as usual, learn little or nothing.

    In so far as scalability is intrinsic to the Quark’s modular design, and that the available output modalities will interface readily with existing infrastructure, this single seed crystal has the potential to precipitate rapid and sweeping changes effecting economics, geopolitics, the planetary ecology, space exploration and habitation and the prospect of a viable high concept future for humanity.

    So yes, some thoughtfulness about exactly how to present the Quark to the planet is appropriate.

  • Zephir

    I’d prefer to say, I’m well informed. Today it’s not quite necessary to be very bright or inventive, we just should keep on mind the previous results and not to forget them fast – or we will remain always at the very beginning of thoughts. The good memory and ability to combine known facts, rather than analytical thinking can be useful at the era of emergent hyperdimensional physics. For deterministically thinking people such a holistic way of thinking may look incoherent, but this is simply how the hyperdimensional objects look-like from our low-dimensional perspective: you should always connect the dots. After all, why do you think the massive bodies are composed of mutually isolated atoms and molecules? They’re just hyperdimensional objects, which we can observe from low-dimensional perspective only.

    http://i.imgur.com/j0chDOj.gif

  • Warthog

    Dispassionate scientific skepticism is not and has never been practiced by the physics community with respect to LENR. From day one, said community has labelled Pons and Fleischmann “frauds” and their work “pathological science”. Said community also indulged in an experimental “rush to judgment” with such features as MIT holding a “funeral party” for cold fusion after several negative experiments surfaced (note…NOT published in peer-reviewed journals).

    Your every meme on this thread has come directly out of the pathological skeptics playbook .

    “So can any scientist in the field now take the Pons and Fleischmann method, as replicated by Brockris, and securely and reliably replicate the findings?”

    No, and I wouldn’t expect them to be able to. Electrochemical experiments of any sort are fiendishly difficult…but I would expect an expert electrochemist to be able to do so. And in fact the early successes were all done by expert electrochemists.

    “No they can’t — it just hasn’t turned out that way.

    Actually, they can…..but not using the Pons and Fleischmann approach. The Pd/D2 co-deposition work by the SPAWAR labs works repeatably and has been replicated by other labs.

    “Almost 30 years after the initial report I would have expected the technique to be reliably used
    for something or other … making isotopes for instance if not for energy production.

    See recent work by Toyota and replicated by Mitsubishi (I may have that company order backwards).

    “But we see nothing like this. LENR researchers are still struggling to come up with the basics.”

    Yup, with no significant funding, it is hard to do sophisticated science. And yet work has gotten done..it has just taken longer. Meanwhile, “hot fusion” has sucked up billions of dollars and delivered nothing usable.

    “The field is infested with conspiracy theorists
    and fraud artists.

    Really?? Where are they?? When I read the papers and watch the videos of the ICCF meetings, I don’t see any evidence of such. Quite the opposite. The ONLY actual proven fraud ever committed in the field of LENR was done by the MIT physics department, and documented thoroughly by Eugene Mallove. Of course, I am sure you will dismiss that as “conspiracy theory”.

    “This is why I am suspicious of the whole field even
    though I keep an open mind about its fundamental reality.

    “Keep an open mind……” Nope…not that I can discern from your postings.

  • Zephir

    /* A runaway reaction like this would definitely qualify. So where are the papers? */

    First of all, these journals never publish experimental works without underlying theory, at second the accidental runaways don’t count as a reproducible science. At third, the cold fusion research is a taboo in Nature or Science from 1926 http://www.levity.com/alchemy/nelson2_6.html

    • Bruce__H

      First of all these journals do indeed publish experimental works without underlying theory. I can think of lots of them. Why do you think they don’t?

      Second, runaway reactions do count as reproducible science if they are reproducible. That is my whole point.

      Third, the link you provide doesn’t say anything about cold fusion, a taboo, or the journals Nature or Science (except to cite them as publications in which papers did indeed appear). In general, prestigious mainline journals would rather publish a surprising empirical result than a paper about theory.

      Finally, is there a peer reviewed paper describing Dr Levi’s experiences? I hope so. I expect, however, that what you are citing is yet another second or third hand account of something that may or may not have happened sometime somewhere. Amazing tales! But not science..

  • Alan DeAngelis

    OK, this is way off topic. But it is Memorial Day weekend and
    maybe we can think of the Dauntless and its pilot in the first part of this video (1:00 min) as a metaphor for the E-Cat and Rossi.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDPyvyt-MQ

  • This is the IH inside guy working the complete anti-lenr agenda. Compared to him MY, GW and Krivit looks like saints. His name is Fred Zoepfl.
    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/meet-fred-zoepfl-the-secret-weapon-of-ihapco-or-a-physisist-malfunctioning/

  • Zephir

    /* My naive view is that, so far, patent issues (very valid ones) have
    forbidden a repetition of the experiments by the scientific community
    because incomplete details were provided. Shall we agree on this
    starting point? */
    Nope, even the very first cold fusion attempts of Panneth and Petters from 1926 were not attempted to replicate so far – not to say about later articles.

  • Warthog

    “When you say an
    expert electrochemist should be able to do it that is erxactly what I am
    saying.

    Uh, no….that may be what you meant, but it is not what you “said”.

    “It is because the basic phenomenon has not turned out to be solid enough to push forward with”

    Again, no. That hasn’t happened because not enough fundamental research has been funded for it to happen.

    Compare the numbers of people working on and budgets spent on “hot fusion” to that spent on LENR. Thousands of people and billions of dollars to maybe a few dozen and probably well less than $50MM of research budget.

    “..if he is a researcher then he is one whose every action over his whole working lifetime just happens to look like the activity of a con man. I’m amazed that
    people don’t get this but I guess that cognitive dissonance accounts for a lot.

    LOL…and once again, every thought in your post is right out of the skeptopath script. I’ve taken the trouble to read the government research reports on that of his work that was federal grant funded, and there is NO evidence of fraud of any sort. And his conviction in Italy involved financial fraud….not scientific. When he emigrated to the US, he licensed his “waste to oil” tech to an American firm, who commercialized it, and which made him wealthy enough to privately fund all his original LENR work. Where’s the fraud??

    • Alan Smith

      TELLING LIES – A POPULAR BUSINESS MODEL!

      “The majority of politicians, on the evidence available to us, are interested not in truth but in power and in the maintenance of that power. To maintain that power it is essential that people remain in ignorance, that they live in ignorance of the truth, even the truth of their own lives. What surrounds us therefore is a vast tapestry of lies, upon which we feed.”– Harold Pinter, Nobel Lecture (Literature), 2005

      itworld.com/article/2718456/en…sts-lying-more-than-ever-.

      html bettermarkets.com/blog/its-not…ndal-its-culture-lie-more

      independent.co.uk/news/people/…s-many-lies-10005386.html

      telegraph.co.uk/finance/econom…agen-caught-cheating.html

      putitout.co.uk/news/43/stop-the-broadband-con-campaign-site

      • GreenWin

        Alan Smith, THANK YOU for this brilliant quote from a great playwright! The tapestry has evolved of late – it is woven not by a textile loom, but by a deeply misanthropic computer simulation. Lacking most in understanding human compassion.

  • Alan Smith

    TELLING LIES – A POPULAR BUSINESS MODEL!

    “The majority of politicians, on the evidence available to us, are interested not in truth but in power and in the maintenance of that power. To maintain that power it is essential that people remain in ignorance, that they live in ignorance of the truth, even the truth of their own lives. What surrounds us therefore is a vast tapestry of lies, upon which we feed.”– Harold Pinter, Nobel Lecture (Literature), 2005

    itworld.com/article/2718456/en…sts-lying-more-than-ever-.

    html bettermarkets.com/blog/its-not…ndal-its-culture-lie-more

    independent.co.uk/news/people/…s-many-lies-10005386.html

    telegraph.co.uk/finance/econom…agen-caught-cheating.html

    putitout.co.uk/news/43/stop-the-broadband-con-campaign-site

    • GreenWin

      Alan Smith, THANK YOU for this brilliant quote from a great playwright! The tapestry has evolved of late – it is woven not by a textile loom, but by a deeply misanthropic computer simulation. Lacking most in understanding human compassion.