me356 Reports LENR Progress

A few weeks ago we published an interview with LENR replicator me356 who had reported significant progress in LENR replications efforts, and that he was continuing to work on making his reactions safer and more stable. After a while of not reporting much he has posted on the LENR Forum about making important progress.

On this thread he makes some statements on the status of his work:

A few excerpts on this thread from recent comments:

“Progress with my reactors is on the good way. Now it is not that easy to melt it and even if it happen, the outer shell will survive . . . I can observe transmutations even by optical analysis now. So I will send some fuel for lab analysis, although I am perfectly sure what it is . . . in just few miliseconds even 1L of hydrogen can just “disappear” and is irreversibly transformed to other kind of energy (including neutron radiation). We can completely exclude lithium or similar compounds that can create a hydrides . . . Enormous COP can be achieved (100 and more).”

In a separate thread, me356 discusses how he would like to share his inventions, but would also like to protect his work so that others cannot patent it. Another excerpt:

“Because I have found phenomenons that are not described anywhere and technics that allow full utilization, I would like to protect the invention in some way.

“I really do not like patents, especially because it does not represent perfect protection yet it costs a lot.
I am looking for something that can cover the invention to some extent, so that it will at least prevent further patenting. For example opensource software offers licenses that can protect the software very well. But is there anything similar for inventions?

“Sharing information freely does not mean it can’t be patented later in some countries.

“Such protection will allow sharing my knowledge.”

I find the desire of someone who makes remarkable discoveries after a lot of hard work and dedication to secure some kind of IP protection very understandable, and also the desire to share excitement with others, without giving critical information away. I also understand the desire of people on the outside to know about the secrets, and to have the information shared, especially if that information can advance the cause of science and be beneficial to mankind. This seems to be a particular dilemma in the world of LENR which has been discussed at length in connection with Andrea Rossi.

It would be a very unusual person indeed who would make a remarkable world-shattering discovery, share it openly without any care for patents or securing IP and give everyone in the world the possible commercial advantages that could come from that knowledge.

There are many patent trolls out there who will try to take ownership available IP without compunction and without any effort on their part, and then seek to reap every benefit they can from it without regard to the source of the knowledge. It seems that me356 has the desire to share — but is looking for a mechanism to share with some assurance that his knowledge cannot be held to ransom. It’s a difficult situation.

  • georgehants

    I believe that it is perfectly possible to put information into the public domain that once published cannot then be patented by others.
    As usual in this crazy capitalistic World, where those working hard for society are not automatically and fairly rewarded by that society, I need the services of a parasitic legal team to advise me of the correctness of my belief and how to enact it comprehensibly.
    Justice and fairness are for all and not just those that can afford it, just as Drugs, Air, Water, Food, Housing and Cold Fusion etc. are for all doing their share for society, not just those who can afford it.
    I start with the “lowest” workers without which none of us would survive and such completely unneeded people such as financial workers etc. or those inheriting wealth etc. would be right at the back of the queue.

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      Well, maybe some financial workers perform altruistic work, or some people who do inherit still might chip in what they want/can to make this a better world, no?

      But I agree to the theory that putting knowledge which has been barraged by our outdated entities in public domain might be safer than kept mum. Nowadays. Those with the skills and some means would build on that. Even without the means some still research, internationally.

      The idea that the hard work which has been performed in the past (especially under such incredibly unfavourable conditions) might not be rewarded still is a problem, however. That is why, IMHO, one can really not censor Rossi for keeping his information to himself.

      • georgehants

        we want, of course you are correct, simply Wonderful people from all walks of life, but would you not agree that we all should have an equal, caring and sharing start to life, those more able would receive their fair reward for helping society more than the average.
        With such a society from birth, I believe that the vast majority would pull their weight and contribute beyond the call of duty for the betterment of all.
        Best

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          yes, I agree – of course.
          There is much that is choice-related. Some people work much harder than others. Or are more stubborn in their research. Or work for an ideal.
          So if an initial equality can be a gift (it would be wonderful if it were a universal right – also biologically speaking), but what different people manage to do with what they have is the fruit of hard work, alpha wave thought, possibly luck and much ingenious talent.
          Hopefully going forward many more talented people might get an extra chance by a better quality access to water/ food/ energy in life, in a peaceful environment.

  • georgehants

    I believe that it is perfectly possible to put information into the public domain that once published cannot then be patented by others.
    As usual in this crazy capitalistic World, where those working hard for society are not automatically and fairly rewarded by that society, (Mr. Rossi for example, if genuine) I need the services of a parasitic legal team to advise me of the correctness of my belief and how to enact it comprehensibly.
    Justice and fairness are for all and not just those that can afford it, just as Drugs, Air, Water, Food, Housing and Cold Fusion etc. are for all doing their share for society, not just those who can afford it.
    I start with the “lowest” workers without which none of us would survive and such completely unneeded people as most financial workers etc. or those inheriting wealth etc. who have never done a worthwhile days work in their lives, would be right at the back of the queue.

    • Thor

      Yeah, it’s my understanding that (at least in the United States) once an invention is made public it can no longer be patented by anyone. If an inventor files a patent before making the invention public, then he would be protected, so long as the public disclosure was made AFTER the initial filing.

      Also, filing a US patent as a Micro Entity actually isn’t that expensive. There are limitations of course, but if you write the patent yourself and file as a Micro Entity, you can get a patent for as little as $600 – $700. I think my initially filing cost about $400 and then once the patent was approved, I had to pay another $250 or so to actually have it granted.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        The question is, though, when is an information considered to be „public“? I do not think that it would be enough to post it somewhere in the internet. Perhaps a standard copyright notice could help (see my comment above), but the legal implications might be complex and difficult to resolve. Usually, claims on “prior art” refer to patents, patent applications, peer-reviewed papers, or publications of a comparable standard. I doubt that patent examiners would take posts on internet blogs seriously, especially if they come from anonymous users.

        • Mats002

          In Sweden we have ‘the Swedish Companies Registration Office’, you can file documents attached to an organization there. It will be considered ‘public’. I am sure US have the same.

          The cost is not in getting a patent or official document, the cost is in defending it from abuse and in this case it will be abused.

          • Pat

            In the US, one can file a “provisional patent” that cost practically nothing. Provisional patents are not prosecuted by the USPTO. The filer then has 12 months to begin a more formal process. Doing this secures the priority date for whatever you filed. Provisional patens need not have any claims. Also, in the US, it is now “first to file” rather than “first to invent” that holds ownership of priority date.

        • TVulgaris

          Publication in ANY periodical (that lists a pub date) is sufficient proof of date of information release; also, a notarized statement. They may be entirely insufficient for a patent filing, but will immediately establish “prior art” against a contested patent or application, and one year without claim (application, granted or not) firmly fixes it in the public domain. This could all be moot, as the corruption of the system keeps many patent trolls employed and rich, and a falsely-granted patent would probably be quashed internally long before any externally-filed counterclaims and motions for information based on such things as common law would have any sway. The trolls are the ones with the money to constantly breathe down the examiners’ necks.

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      Well, maybe some financial workers perform altruistic work, or some people who do inherit still might chip in what they want/can to make this a better world, no?

      But I agree to the theory that putting knowledge which has been barraged by our outdated entities in public domain might be safer than kept mum. Nowadays. Those with the skills and some means would build on that. Even without the means some still research, internationally.

      The idea that the hard work which has been performed in the past (especially under such incredibly unfavourable conditions) might not be rewarded still is a problem, however. That is why, IMHO, one can really not censor Rossi for keeping his information to himself.

      • georgehants

        we want, of course you are correct, simply Wonderful people from all walks of life, but would you not agree that we all should have an equal, caring and sharing start to life, those more able would receive their fair reward for helping society more than the average.
        With such a society from birth, I believe that the vast majority would pull their weight and contribute beyond the call of duty for the betterment of all.
        Best

        • orsobubu
        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          yes, I agree – of course.
          There is much that is choice-related. Some people work much harder than others. Or are more stubborn in their research. Or work for an ideal.
          So if an initial equality can be a gift (it would be wonderful if it were a universal right – also biologically speaking), what different people manage to do with what they have is the fruit of hard work, alpha wave thought, possibly luck and much ingenious talent.
          Hopefully going forward many more of talented and less talented or determined or anyway people might get an extra chance by a better quality, fairer access to water/ food/ energy in life, in a peaceful environment.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    How to copyright non-software information:

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/nonsoftware-copyleft.html

    However, I do not expect that this kind of protection would be very effective. Maybe there is a little chance that it could give the shared information a “prior art” status. Do we have a patent attorney on board?

  • open-minded skpt

    Hi Me356,
    I like to see a 3 day closed loop self powered LENR experiment boardcasting over the internet. Such evidence will be undeniable.

  • Mats002

    @me356, MFMP, and all forces that want an open source approach to LENR:

    I strongly believe the solution is two-fold:

    1. Put as much information out in the public domain as possible, because any attempt for patent protection from others can be invalidated as ‘prior art’. This means simply that a new LENR patent must include what is already known plus some thing that makes it better. The better part can be IP protected, not the already known part.

    2. People and organisations WILL ignore prior art and seek patent and other IP protection anyway and therefore we need some free, open, democratic organization with the purpose of DEFENDING the open sourced prior art.

    Anyone know such an organization or do we need a new invention here?

  • Mats002

    @me356, MFMP, and all forces that want an open source approach to LENR:

    I strongly believe the solution is two-fold:

    1. Put as much information out in the public domain as possible, because any attempt for patent protection from others can be invalidated as ‘prior art’. This means simply that a new LENR patent must include what is already known plus some thing that makes it better. The better part can be IP protected, not the already known part.

    2. People and organisations WILL ignore prior art and seek patent and other IP protection anyway and therefore we need some free, open, democratic organization with the purpose of DEFENDING the open sourced prior art.

    Anyone know such an organization or do we need a new invention here?

  • Ophelia Rump

    If you have a design which ready for market, shareware license all of the design except for one core component.

    For example the fuel rod, or chip. Allow anyone and everyone to manufacture all of the device except the one essential component. Sell the single component yourself.

    This is the most profitable approach, you will probably find that most of the components are made by third parties and if you produced the complete product you would have to pay others for their pipes, electronics boards, connectors, wires, tubes etc.

    This approach will give you an instant wide market where you can make the same profit from your single component that you would if you sold complete devices, you do not have the liability for the device and you can make and sell far more of the tiny core component while keeping your trade secrets for that key technology.

    • Mats002

      If this route is choosed by Me356, I will respect it. The most important is that we need this technology now, not years from now or next millenium.

      It will be reenginered sooner or later. But we know that the procedure of preparing the fuel and probably also running it need a narrow parameter space and that part should be the core to be hidden from reverse engineering.

    • cashmemorz

      Until someone reverse engineers the secret sauce. It may take days or years to figure out then they flood the market if they are a big North Korean corp. or similar rogue nation state like Somalia. I wouldn’t want to mess with North Korea they are so unpredictable. The legit inventor can then put out a more advanced version of the secret sauce to keep ahead of the illegit producer. This diverts a large portion of profits to side issues.

  • Ophelia Rump

    If you have a design which ready for market, opensource license all of the design except for one core component. It does not need to be ready for home use, it is enough that the device is sufficient for laboratory use for research as long as you market it as such.

    For example reserve the fuel rod, or chip as propriatary. Allow anyone and everyone to manufacture all of the device except the one essential component. Sell the single component yourself.

    This is the most profitable approach, you will probably find that most of the components are made by third parties and if you produced the complete product you would have to pay others for their pipes, electronics boards, connectors, wires, tubes etc.

    This approach will give you an instant wide market where you can make the same profit from your single component that you would if you sold complete devices, you do not have the liability for the device and you can make and sell far more of the tiny core component while keeping your trade secrets for that key technology. You should expect to quickly amass enough wealth to be able to protect your IP.

    If you have multiple approaches as you have suggested, do this with the approach you think has the least potential, keep the other in reserve and use the profit to develop and protect new technology trying to stay ahead of the competition. Try to always have a new improved approach in reserve, so that you can take back your market from a well funded competitor which simply duplicates your product and tries to outproduce you.

    Lets do some math, you design a device which costs you $1000 in parts to produce, you sell them wholesale at $2000 and make $250 profit off of each one sold. To produce 100 for sale, you need $100K in funding just to purchase materials, and another $75,000 for other expenses.
    Your profit $25,000.

    The core technology costs $5.00 to produce the fuel rod. You spend $5,000 on materials and another 5,000 on manufacturing expenses. You produce 500 fuel rods, and sell them for $250 each.
    Your profit $240,000

    Notice that when you produce complete devices you are forced to scale to a factory with employees and great overhead, when you produce a single small component, you can set up a machine in your garage to get started.

    By the time you have sold your first truckload, you will have the millions in cash to fund a factory.

    • Mats002

      If this route is choosed by Me356, I will respect it. The most important is that we need this technology now, not years from now or next millenium.

      It will be reenginered sooner or later. But we know that the procedure of preparing the fuel and probably also running it need a narrow parameter space and that part should be the core to be hidden from reverse engineering.

    • cashmemorz

      Until someone reverse engineers the secret sauce. It may take days or years to figure out then they flood the market if they are a big North Korean corp. or similar rogue nation state like Somalia. I wouldn’t want to mess with North Korea they are so unpredictable. The legit inventor can then put out a more advanced version of the secret sauce to keep ahead of the illegit producer. This diverts a large portion of profits to side issues.

  • help_lenr

    No chance to protect the IP. He wastes his time by trying to. Even a patent does not protects the IP for a process like LENR which is basicaly generic , a slight variation of a patent works around a patent. it is possible, not easy , to protect a detailed device but not a generic concept.

    • Zephir

      IMO its very premature to patent something around cold fusion right now.

  • Hhiram

    It depends on how much money me356 wants.

    If you want to be a billionaire from a patent, then you need to spend $100,000+ on multiple patents around the world, and you will need more funds later to defend the patent from infringement. This is difficult, and almost everyone fails, so you will likely just sell the patent as Intellectual Property to another company who will use it (either to manufacture or to file lawsuits). Either way, being the inventor without being the manufacturer will not make you a billionaire. That has literally never happened. This is why Rossi is so completely focused on manufacturing.

    BUT. If you are satisfied with only being a millionaire, then this is easy. You don’t need any patent at all. You simply need to provide overwhelming evidence that you have achieved cold fusion, and you will become famous overnight and a hero for all time. This is enough to get you awards, and if you want millions then even something as easy as “give $5 to this Kickstarter for the guy who invented cold fusion but gave it away free for the good of humanity”. You would easily be a multimillionaire from that Kickstarter alone.

    So, if you want billions, you have to do exactly what Rossi is doing. If you want only millions, just do the demo and give everything away for free – it will make you famous, and a world hero.

    Seems like an easy choice to me.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    Do a good demo on the Internet, then go into partnership (with a reasonable payment to yourself) with General Electric or someone as big. They’ll look after the protection and you’ll have enough money and fame to do you forever–including the Nobel prize, for you will have saved the world. If you really have it, prove it and then think big.

    • Alain Samoun

      That would be the end of the invention! GE like all others companies exist only to make profit,not to “save the world”…

      • Fibber McGourlick

        The two things are not incompatible.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    Do a good demo on the Internet, then go into partnership (with a reasonable payment to yourself) with General Electric or someone as big. They’ll look after the protection and you’ll have enough money and fame to do you forever–including the Nobel prize, for you will have saved the world. If you really have it, prove it and then think big.

    • Alain Samoun

      That would be the end of the invention! GE like all others companies exist only to make profit,not to “save the world”…

      • Fibber McGourlick

        The two things are not incompatible.

  • Sanjeev

    There are many patent trolls out there who will try to take ownership available IP….

    I’m not very sure about this, but I think open sourcing the IP would put it in public domain, making it a prior art, and thus no one can patent it, I guess this is the law everywhere.
    No one has claimed Linux so far as their own IP and people are making some money from it. All me356 needs to do is open source it and put a donate button somewhere and make millions doing nothing. Even better he can make and sell improved and customized reactors in future to other companies, while letting those companies manage the IP and pay him royalties. It can easily make him world’s richest person.
    Secrecy and shadowy business can simply make him another Rossi….

    • Mats002

      Sanjeev, open source needs a defence. It is FSF – Free Software Foundation that makes it respected, see https://www.fsf.org/about/

      “The Free Software Foundation is working to secure freedom for computer users by promoting the development and use of free (as in freedom) software and documentation—particularly the GNU operating system—and by campaigning against threats to computer user freedom like Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) and software patents.”

      • Sanjeev

        Hopefully that can cover some hardware too.

        • Mats002

          No, software differs from hardware. Software is more like writing a book, authoring. Hardware is the old game of patents.

          Therefore there is need for a new solution, here is one of the strongest today: http://www.oshwa.org

          Me356 could seek protection through OSHWA – Open Source Hardware Association.

    • Gerrit

      yes, put it in public domain and make it prior art. Free for the public to use. Earn good money with books, talks, speeches.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    The question is, though, when is an information considered to be „public“? I do not think that it would be enough to post it somewhere in the internet. Perhaps a standard copyright notice could help (see my comment above), but the legal implications might be complex and difficult to resolve. Usually, claims on “prior art” refer to patents, patent applications, peer-reviewed papers, or publications of a comparable standard. I doubt that patent examiners would take posts on internet blogs seriously, especially if they come from anonymous users.

    • Mats002

      In Sweden we have ‘the Swedish Companies Registration Office’, you can file documents attached to an organization there. It will be considered ‘public’. I am sure US have the same.

      The cost is not in getting a patent or official document, the cost is in defending it from abuse and in this case it will be abused.

    • TVulgaris

      Publication in ANY periodical (that lists a pub date) is sufficient proof of date of information release; also, a notarized statement. They may be entirely insufficient for a patent filing, but will immediately establish “prior art” against a contested patent or application, and one year without claim (application, granted or not) firmly fixes it in the public domain. This could all be moot, as the corruption of the system keeps many patent trolls employed and rich, and a falsely-granted patent would probably be quashed internally long before any externally-filed counterclaims and motions for information based on such things as common law would have any sway. The trolls are the ones with the money to constantly breathe down the examiners’ necks.

  • Sanjeev

    There are many patent trolls out there who will try to take ownership available IP….

    I’m not very sure about this, but I think open sourcing the IP would put it in public domain, making it a prior art, and thus no one can patent it, I guess this is the law everywhere.
    No one has claimed Linux so far as their own IP and people are making some money from it. All me356 needs to do is open source it and put a donate button somewhere and make millions doing nothing. Even better he can make and sell improved and customized reactors in future to other companies, while letting those companies manage the IP and pay him royalties. It can easily make him world’s richest person.
    Secrecy and shadowy business can simply make him another Rossi….

    • Mats002

      Sanjeev, open source needs a defence. It is FSF – Free Software Foundation that makes it respected, see https://www.fsf.org/about/

      “The Free Software Foundation is working to secure freedom for computer users by promoting the development and use of free (as in freedom) software and documentation—particularly the GNU operating system—and by campaigning against threats to computer user freedom like Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) and software patents.”

      • Sanjeev

        Hopefully that can cover some hardware too.

        • Mats002

          No, software differs from hardware. Software is more like writing a book, authoring. Hardware is the old game of patents.

          Therefore there is need for a new solution, here is one of the strongest today: http://www.oshwa.org

          Me356 could seek protection through OSHWA – Open Source Hardware Association.

    • Gerrit

      yes, put it in public domain and make it prior art. Free for the public to use. Earn good money with books, talks, speeches.

  • cashmemorz

    I am thinking of something like escrow but works for inventions. The details are recorded but not given to any person to know. It is sealed and placed in a bank vault with only a certain number of keys with locks that are specially made per occasion. All these hardware points are appointed to separate holders such as chartered accountants that are not known to each other. The only one who knows the whole is the inventor. Then the IP is released into the public in a particular way. Anything that shows up in the market that is close to what is recorded and stored in the vault is taken to the court in the Hague to explain where the original IP came from. International court is effective in some countries but not in all. To take care of this point the IP is allowed to be known by anyone who is in a country that the Hague court has effective agreement with. The identity of the anyone who wants to use the IP is open to all. But that person signs an NDA. Anything that the person makes and works is sold with a certain profit. No existing orgawnization is allowed to have such rights, only individuals.

    This covers some points to prevent misuse. Perhaps others knowledgable in such market control for the benefit of the majority might have information to cover loopholes.

  • Gerard McEk

    Knowledge will soon be available in patents as I assume AR will and has patented most of it. Becoming famous by publishing the knowledge first and have verified tests will may be the only thing left. I would welcome a verification by MFMP.

    • SG

      I suspect that one or more of Rossi’s applications have had a secrecy order imposed thereon. It is impossible for us to know for sure, and Rossi will not be able to answer any questions about it under those circumstances. More of Rossi’s applications should have published by now. That they haven’t is some evidence of this possibility.

  • cashmemorz

    I am thinking of something like escrow but works for inventions. The details are recorded but not given to any person to know. It is sealed and placed in a bank vault with only a certain number of keys with locks that are specially made per occasion. All these hardware points are appointed to separate holders such as chartered accountants that are not known to each other. The only one who knows the whole is the inventor. Then the IP is released into the public in a particular way. Anything that shows up in the market that is close to what is recorded and stored in the vault is taken to the court in the Hague to explain where the original IP came from. International court is effective in some countries but not in all. To take care of this point the IP is allowed to be known by anyone who is in a country that the Hague court has effective agreement with. The identity of the anyone who wants to use the IP is open to all. But that person signs an NDA. Anything that the person makes and works is sold with a certain profit. No existing organization is allowed to have such rights, only individuals.

    This covers some points to prevent misuse. Perhaps others knowledgable in such market control for the benefit of the majority might have information to cover loopholes.

  • Gerard McEk

    Knowledge will soon be available in patents as I assume AR will and has patented most of it. Becoming famous by publishing the knowledge first and have verified tests will may be the only thing left. I would welcome a verification by MFMP.

    • SG

      I suspect that one or more of Rossi’s applications have had a secrecy order imposed thereon. It is impossible for us to know for sure, and Rossi will not be able to answer any questions about it under those circumstances. More of Rossi’s applications should have published by now. That they haven’t is some evidence of this possibility.

  • Mats002

    President Obama supports a nation makers initiative:

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/06/17/fact-sheet-new-commitments-support-presidents-nation-makers-initiative

    This include support for Open Source Hardware.

    Me356 can get his secured LENR in october 2016. Start with contacts now.

    • Mats002

      Edit: Some of OSHWA’s events are highlighted in the White House’s FACT SHEET on page 18 in my post above.

  • Mats002

    President Obama supports a nation makers initiative:

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/06/17/fact-sheet-new-commitments-support-presidents-nation-makers-initiative

    This include support for Open Source Hardware.

    Me356 can get his secured LENR in october 2016. Start with contacts now.

    • Mats002

      Edit: Some of OSHWA’s events are highlighted in the White House’s FACT SHEET on page 18 in my post above.

  • Rene

    The alternative to patents is a public technical disclosure. It places the work into the public domain becomes prior art, hence not patentable per se. Remember that patents can be built upon prior art with new means and methods claims forming the basis of the new patent. Those kinds of patents have a narrower scope, but they can and do happen.

  • kdk

    Congrats on the successes, Me356, and thanks for replicating the effect. I look forward to seeing more info, when you’re able to share it.

  • kdk

    Congrats on the successes, Me356, and thanks for replicating the effect. I look forward to seeing more info, when you’re able to share it.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    It’s first to file. So, apply for a patent me356. We’ll learn all about the details of your experiment by reading your application.
    http://www.brainyquote.com/photos/g/georgespatton125091.jpg

    • Mats002

      No – patents can be traded. Who knows who will own the patent in the future? File it to EPO and USPTO as prior art. I do agree with the first-to-file approach but not as a patent though.

      Read this first: http://www.oshwa.org/faq/

    • SG

      You will likely never be able to read the application if me365 takes your suggestion, even under first to file. See below for the reason.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yeah Mats002 and SG, you guys have a good points but I think they could get away with the wack-a-mole sequestering patents game in the “Please, May I have a cup of tea?” joke days but the secret of LENR is out and the secret is that it works.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    It’s first to file. So, apply for a patent me356. We’ll learn all about the details of your experiment by reading your application.
    http://www.brainyquote.com/photos/g/georgespatton125091.jpg

    • Mats002

      No – patents can be traded. Who knows who will own the patent in the future? File it to EPO and USPTO as prior art. I do agree with the first-to-file approach but not as a patent though.

      Read this first: http://www.oshwa.org/faq/

    • SG

      You will likely never be able to read the application if me365 takes your suggestion, even under first to file. See above for the reason.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yeah Mats002 and SG, you guys have a good points but I think they could get away with the wack-a-mole sequestering patents game in the “Please, May I have a cup of tea?” joke days but the secret of LENR is out and the secret is that it works.

  • SG

    The underlying LENR effect having an express COP of any significant value above 1 will likely attract a secrecy order from every patent office in the world to which a patent application covering such subject matter is submitted. It will very likely never see the time of day even when the revelation of such subject matter would alleviate most if not all extreme poverty and suffering in the world.

    If you understand what I am saying, you will then draw the same conclusion as me that if me365 wants to permit the subject matter to lift the extremely oppressed and poor among the huddled masses of the world, he will need to publish openly how the fundamental effect can be achieved.

    This act will at once prevent others from obtaining patents worldwide for the underlying effect, and no secrecy order can be issued because no patent was applied for. Secrecy Orders apply not only to the subject matter of the application itself, but to any kind of disclosure of the invention. An almost certain deathknell. Make the information public and broadly distributed, then pursue patent protection for specific embodiments of the invention that might bring a competitive edge.

    • Steve Wallace

      Yes, well stated. Something as huge as a world changing form of energy, that will alter whole nations, economies, and corporate powers will most likely be put under lock and key. There is most likely one chance, and only one chance, to get this information out and that is through the Internet as an open source. I would also be one to contribute to me356 to see him financially gain from his public disclosure.

    • kenko1

      me356 needs to document everything he has done up until now. Wait 1 year. Then publish. It will be open source then and public domain. No troll can snatch it up. But if he wants complete control and a little profit to boot, patents and all its trimmings are the way to go. Only improvements or other significant modifications can be patentable. You’re already around halfway there, timewise.

      • SG

        There is no need to wait one year for the public disclosure to be considered prior art.

        • kenko1

          public domain, not prior art.

          • SG

            You have it backwards. Publish first and after one year with no filing it would enter public domain worldwide. In the meanwhile, it would also be effective as prior art against other would-be filers. It is the best approach for me365 to achieve his stated goals.

    • kdk

      Nothing would be stopping them from using that information to make their own patent and bribing somebody to show that the patent was applied for before the public information was released, and then aggressively pursuing copy right litigation. Yes, they’ve done much, much worse, and a good chunk of the world’s politicians are probably receiving bribes from them in one form or another already.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySnk-f2ThpE

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Thanks for this.

  • standby

    ARDUINO is open hardware and software. Copy how they have done that

  • Jarea

    My God why all the people that achieve to reproduce LENR talk and talk with promises but doesn´t show anything public and clearly. I appreciate all his efforts but if he doesn´t make them public after all what he has received from the MFMP community, then i think he is another greedy person. Good we have another replicator but really, is it more important to talk than just do the patents and share his receipts?. I would say, stop talking and hire a lawyer to create a good patent for you. Then, you should share your knowledge to the public to gain traction and credibility.
    On the other side, i find all this i little unfair, because he used MFMP equipment and he is not sharing anything of his discoveries. It Is like always the cost are public shared but the gains are privatized. The humanity disappoint me once more.

  • Jarea

    My God why all the people that achieve to reproduce LENR talk and talk with promises but doesn´t show anything public and clearly. I appreciate all his efforts but if he doesn´t make them public after all what he has received from the MFMP community, then i think he is another greedy person. Good we have another replicator but really, is it more important to talk than just do the patents and share his receipts?. I would say, stop talking and hire a lawyer to create a good patent for you. Then, you should share your knowledge to the public to gain traction and credibility.
    On the other side, i find all this i little unfair, because he used MFMP equipment and he is not sharing anything of his discoveries. It Is like always the cost are public shared but the gains are privatized. The humanity disappoint me once more.

    • G

      Me too. An invention that has the potential to redefine wealth, property and money as a concept does not need no patents. The social wealth that can be produced should suffice to the inventor. But as you just said, humans are a disappointing species. Or plain stupid. Perhaps they themselves have not fully understood what is at stake. Seems a bit like the greek/syriza drama.

    • help_lenr

      Are ready to pay from your own pocket the money for patents and lawyers ? Until you volunteer to pay don’t advice others to pay.

      • Jarea

        that is demagogic and suspicious from your side. You are not going to the point. Blaming others because they don´t help you when you do not help others first is hypocrite. As i said, LENR researchers will have all the funds they need if they make public their research. Look what MFMP did for him. Please, don´t expect that we all invest in something so that it remains hidden.

  • sam

    Does anyone know why the replicator chose
    me356 to be identified by.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Nothing special or deliberate, just a short moniker for no particular reason.

  • sam

    Does anyone know why the replicator chose
    me356 to be identified by.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Nothing special or deliberate, just a short moniker for no particular reason.

  • oldrolledgold

    Seems odd that previously he was saying that the maximum COP would be 7? (ish) using plasma and then higher COPS would be achieved via arrays (cat and mice).Now Rossi mentions 200,he mentions 100.(Haven’t been watching LENR forum) If his posts post date Rossi it seems odd to me.

  • Zephir

    /* in just few miliseconds even 1L of hydrogen can just “disappear” and is
    irreversibly transformed to other kind of energy (including neutron
    radiation) */

    This is 83 mg of hydrogen, which would correspond the energy yield of 13.3 kilograms of TNT in form of hydrogen bomb…

    • Ophelia Rump

      29.23 lbs, Bada Big Boom!

      • Zephir

        You no trouble. Me… Fifth element… supreme being… me protect you.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Yeah, I was thinking that it may be the exothermic chemical adsorption of hydrogen onto metal he’s seeing That’s a fast reaction.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      The exothermic chemical adsorption of hydrogen onto metal is rapid. That could explain its quick disappearance

    • Alain Samoun

      Yes, but apparently there is no Li involved

      • Zephir

        Why do you think so? The QuarkX reactor of Rossi contains lithium…

        • Alain Samoun

          Read what me356 said:
          “We can completely exclude lithium or similar compounds that can create a hydrides..”

          • Zephir

            IMO you’ve misunderstood the context. Me356 just says, the hydride formation like LiAlH4 cannot participate on the sudden loss of hydrogen in his reactor. Which is possible, if the temperature in his reactor remains as high, as in Quark reactor. Which I doubt it – it would require special equipment.

      • Zephir

        Why do you think so?

  • Zephir

    /* in just few miliseconds even 1L of hydrogen can just “disappear” and is irreversibly transformed to other kind of energy (including neutron radiation) */

    That’s 83 mg of hydrogen, which would correspond the energy yield of 13.3 kilograms of TNT in form of hydrogen bomb… But it has been proposed, the LENR runs with much lower energy yield than fusion of hydrogen according to reaction Li(7) + p > Be(8)* > 2 He(4) + 17.26 MeV

    • Ophelia Rump

      29.23 lbs, Bada Big Boom!

      • Zephir

        You no trouble. Me… Fifth element… supreme being… me protect you.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Yeah, I was thinking that it may be the exothermic chemical adsorption of hydrogen onto metal he’s seeing That’s a fast reaction.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      The exothermic chemical adsorption of hydrogen onto metal is rapid. That could explain its quick disappearance

    • Alain Samoun

      Yes, but apparently there is no Li involved

      • Zephir

        Why do you think so? The QuarkX reactor of Rossi contains lithium…

        • Alain Samoun

          Read what me356 said:
          “We can completely exclude lithium or similar compounds that can create a hydrides..”

          • Zephir

            IMO you’ve misunderstood the context. Me356 just says, the hydride formation like LiAlH4 cannot participate on the sudden loss of hydrogen in his reactor. Which is possible, if the temperature in his reactor remains as high, as in Quark reactor. Which I doubt it – it would require special equipment.

      • Zephir

        Why do you think so?

  • Bob Greenyer

    The MFMP has contributors on board who can meet all the protection requirements for the implied obligations me356 made regarding the common good, which he alluded to above.

    – we have a party on board who, due to his long history of securing successful patents, is a paid expert witness proving or disproving prior art in patent legal cases, he knows how to ensure that things cannot be taken unjustly.

    – we have people that are prepared to help finance protecting the work for the common good

    – we have been advised that it may be advisable for the open community to have bargaining chips such that those with master patents key to a discovery do not withhold them, so preventing wide use of the technology – that is to say, create an environment where keys are exchanged to all the doors that can deliver practical solutions

    – things have to be done in such a way as to prevent secrecy orders – we have an understanding of how this has held up others in the field, it is a main reason why the MFMP was deliberately multinational, we are pretty good at ensuring that things can’t be unsaid

    • vokzzi V

      Is me356 aware that MFMP can offer all that you mention ? Bob , are you optimistic about the cooperation between MFMP and me356 ?

      • Bob Greenyer

        He has been informed in a respectful way given his reflected position.

        If he has what he claims, it is scarily significant and the information needs to be handled sensitively to meet his wishes and protect his health and security. You may be aware by now that there are a lot of unpleasant human traits brought to the surface by even the idea of this technology.

        I am in regular contact, he is a good person.

        • vokzzi V

          I can imagine that there are powerful forces that feel threatened. ( Oil industry , among other things )
          But I do not think it is just an idea of a new technology which frightens them. I think the idea that new technology should be public property scares them the most.

          • Jarea

            Yes, a technology that cannot be centralized controlled (e.g. by patents/law/knowledge/price) cannot be monetized by them and that is awful. A technology that can be centralized although it belongs to someone else is good because they can buy that person or control his environment so that after proper time they will own it and make profit of it.
            In any case, it is easier if you remove the inventor from the operation as IH has tried with Rossi.
            I still have confidence that the LENR knowledge/secrets are spread so that we build a distributed energy scenario where energy is not centralized and controlled by private hands, government or a specific lobby.
            This will not happen if we think greedy and in patents.

        • Alain Samoun

          Bob: It seems to me that you were going to visit me356 to evaluate his system. Is that still in the planning?

          • Bob Greenyer

            me356 was waiting until he had something that ran long enough and he felt comfortable having more detailed observation on. There was also sickness and work on his part, my commitment and trip to Santa Cruz to help run GS5.3.

            He is aware that I can travel to see him nearly any time within reason, but it has to fit in with his busy work schedule for his main business.

          • Alain Samoun

            Thanks Bob,we sure are looking forward to know the result of your visit, hopefully soon.
            Another question How do you interpret the “1L of H2 disappearing in just a few milliseconds” Would that means adsorption?

          • Bob Greenyer

            Well, it depends if me356 was referring to ‘black holes’ figuratively or literally.

            Conversion to photons or some kind of high energy neutral particle could mean no need for an explosion or local absorption.

            We appear to have seen H2 ‘dissapear’ in narrow temperature bands only to re-appear later – this could be chemical or UDH related.

            Of course, he could have a hole that is black in his reactor! I guess a combustible gas detector could benefit him – that would at least help discount leaks.

            I will speak with him in the next 12 hours.

        • Jarea

          The best protection for him is the free distribution of the receipt. Once the receipt is clear and verified everywhere then it will make not sense to harm or kill him to keep the secret. The worst thing he can do is to offer them the possibility/option to keep the secret by killing him.
          If he is greedy, then he will patent. The big powers will know it and detect who is behind me365 (if they don´t know already). I will recommend him to share his secret if not public with some other persons with a private/secret NDA contract. He must have a plan b in case he is eliminated once he deploy his patent. Please, remember our heroe Eugene Mallove who was killed.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I agree that the best way to ensure personal safety is to share widely, this could be done on day of confirmed receipt of filing and must be done before a banning order is imposed.

            I do not agree that Eugene Mallove was hit for his beliefs, I think that people need to see the context of his passing before accepting that implied narrative.

  • Bob Greenyer

    The MFMP has contributors on board who can meet all the protection requirements for the implied obligations me356 made regarding the common good, which he alluded to above.

    – we have a party on board who, due to his long history of securing successful patents, is a paid expert witness proving or disproving prior art in patent legal cases, he knows how to ensure that things cannot be taken unjustly.

    – we have people that are prepared to help finance protecting the work for the common good

    – we have been advised that it may be advisable for the open community to have bargaining chips such that those with master patents key to a discovery do not withhold them, so preventing wide use of the technology – that is to say, create an environment where keys are exchanged to all the doors that can deliver practical solutions

    – things have to be done in such a way as to prevent secrecy orders – we have an understanding of how this has held up others in the field, it is a main reason why the MFMP was deliberately multinational, we are pretty good at ensuring that things can’t be unsaid

    • vokzzi V

      Is me356 aware that MFMP can offer all that you mention ? Bob , are you optimistic about the cooperation between MFMP and me356 ?

      • Bob Greenyer

        He has been informed in a respectful way given his reflected position.

        If he has what he claims, it is scarily significant and the information needs to be handled sensitively to meet his wishes and protect his health and security. You may be aware by now that there are a lot of unpleasant human traits brought to the surface by even the idea of this technology.

        I am in regular contact, he is a good person.

        • vokzzi V

          I can imagine that there are powerful forces that feel threatened. ( Oil industry , among other things )
          But I do not think it is just an idea of a new technology which frightens them. I think the idea that new technology should be public property scares them the most.

          • Jarea

            Yes, a technology that cannot be centralized controlled (e.g. by patents/law/knowledge/price) cannot be monetized by them and that is awful. A technology that can be centralized although it belongs to someone else is good because they can buy that person or control his environment so that after proper time they will own it and make profit of it.
            In any case, it is easier if you remove the inventor from the operation as IH has tried with Rossi.
            I still have confidence that the LENR knowledge/secrets are spread so that we build a distributed energy scenario where energy is not centralized and controlled by private hands, government or a specific lobby.
            This will not happen if we think greedy and in patents.

        • LookMoo

          A complex US patent can cost USD 15-25.000. Several patents is usually required (Rossi claims “hundreds” filed).Then you needs the money to to defend it in court.
          http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/04/04/the-cost-of-obtaining-a-patent-in-the-us/id=56485/

          International patent.. well….
          http://www.inventioncity.com/ask-mike/how-much-does-it-cost-for-international-patents

          So is a Patent the best way to protect your design if you are cash strapped ??

          The Fusion process is largely unknown and there are no exact explanation accepted (no Nobel price yet). Whatever Patent you get will not last for long in court.

          Rossi have always said that the control software is imperative for successful operation. I think this is where you should go if you don’t have the money and the lawyers to play with. The process is far easier than patenting a largely unknown fusion.

          Linux OS strategy have been successful..

          • Bob Greenyer

            I would not describe me356 as cash strapped, he self finances his research.

            However, patents can be very expensive, my brothers patent cost around £600,000 to secure.

        • Alain Samoun

          Bob: It seems to me that you were going to visit me356 to evaluate his system. Is that still in the planning?

          • Bob Greenyer

            me356 was waiting until he had something that ran long enough and he felt comfortable having more detailed observation on. There was also sickness and work on his part, my commitment and trip to Santa Cruz to help run GS5.3.

            He is aware that I can travel to see him nearly any time within reason, but it has to fit in with his busy work schedule for his main business.

          • Alain Samoun

            Thanks Bob,we sure are looking forward to know the result of your visit, hopefully soon.
            Another question How do you interpret the “1L of H2 disappearing in just a few milliseconds” Would that means adsorption?

          • Bob Greenyer

            Well, it depends if me356 was referring to ‘black holes’ figuratively or literally.

            Conversion to photons or some kind of high energy neutral particle could mean no need for an explosion or local absorption.

            We appear to have seen H2 ‘dissapear’ in narrow temperature bands only to re-appear later – this could be chemical or UDH related.

            Of course, he could have a hole that is black in his reactor! I guess a combustible gas detector could benefit him – that would at least help discount leaks.

            I will speak with him in the next 12 hours.

        • Jarea

          The best protection for him is the free distribution of the receipt. Once the receipt is clear and verified everywhere then it will make not sense to harm or kill him to keep the secret. The worst thing he can do is to offer them the possibility/option to keep the secret by killing him.
          If he is greedy, then he will patent. The big powers will know it and detect who is behind me365 (if they don´t know already). I will recommend him to share his secret if not public with some other persons with a private/secret NDA contract. He must have a plan b in case he is eliminated once he deploys his patent. Please, remember our heroe Eugene Mallove who was killed.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I agree that the best way to ensure personal safety is to share widely, this could be done on day of confirmed receipt of filing and must be done before a banning order is imposed.

            I do not agree that Eugene Mallove was hit for his beliefs, I think that people need to see the context of his passing before accepting that implied narrative.

  • Ophelia Rump

    So does me356’s method require a constant input of hydrogen, it seems like that was what he was describing with a feed rate of possibly hundreds or even thousands of liters per minute. That requirement would be fairly prohibitive.

    “In just few miliseconds even 1L of hydrogen can just “disappear” and is irreversibly transformed to other kind of energy (including neutron radiation).”

  • Ophelia Rump

    So does me356’s method require a constant input of hydrogen, it seems like that was what he was describing with a feed rate of possibly hundreds or even thousands of liters per minute? That requirement would be fairly prohibitive.

    “In just few miliseconds even 1L of hydrogen can just “disappear” and is irreversibly transformed to other kind of energy (including neutron radiation).”

  • James Andrew Rovnak

    Great job me356 look forward to seeing you describe more of your result when you are ready!
    Some more good news of nuclear clean energy transformations recently published.
    https://www.academia.edu/25435499/Microwave_induced_nuclear_transmutations

  • bfast

    me356, this is a VERY exciting report. Most other replicators are looking carefully at their meters to see if they have COP > 1.

    On the legal stuff, my understanding is that if you get other select parties to sign non-disclosure agreements, you may share with them freely. They effectively become part of your team. I would not be too quick to show my whole hand if I were you. However, there are a bazillion dollars to be had in LENR. Trust the right people, and you may be able to get your due.

    Legal eagles, please let me know if I over-estimate the power of the non-disclosure.

  • coolabuelo

    Am I missing something? I thought me356 was replicating Rossi! If so how can he patent anything, the main patent is already issued to Rossi and over 200 patents filed and pending. Could someone please enlighten me.

    • coolabuelo

      Obviously not!

  • JNM

    Hope he doesn’t end up like Christopher Strevens. He had wild claims of transformation of Hydrogen even visibly through spectral observations to helium, massive amounts of energy etc etc. Don’t know if it was all those EM fields or radiation he was dealing with but his mind is fried and he’s 100% certifiable insane. I spoke to him via email recently and boy he’s got a paranoia complex like no other. Some interesting bits though in his theories and ramblings.

    • Interesting – can you put up some links to his work, if available.

      Edit: Don’t worry – just being lazy. I’ve found what I need.

  • Bob Greenyer

    I would not describe me356 as cash strapped, he self finances his research.

    However, patents can be very expensive, my brothers patent cost around £600,000 to secure.

  • georgehants

    Patents are of no importance as long as our good friends such as the Russians Chinese etc. take the sensible course of completely ignoring them and producing Cold Fusion goods in the same way that they produce so many other things at a tenth of the price possible in parts of the bankrupt West.
    Well done them, let us wish them every success, they may even beat our secret Cold Fusion fraternity and be the first to demonstrate unreservedly a genuine Cold Fusion device.
    Just a little link to show those who believe that the American capitalist system is some kind of success today.
    ———–

    Behind the Facade: America, The Bankrupt Hegemon
    http://journal-neo.org/2016/03/06/behind-the-facade-america-the-bankrupt-hegemon/

    • Alan DeAngelis

      That’s assuming that communism wasn’t invented by capitalists.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Right, so that’s why our computers, medicine, the internet etc. all comes from these countries?
      Exactly who’s contributing here and who’s leaching?

      When such countries develop the technology and medicine we use on a daily basis, then you might have an intellectual leg to stand on.

      Of course, you are free to move to such great countries with their great standard of living and
      human rights track records.

      😉

      Like all typical socialists, you want the wheat, but fail to realize such countries don’t create the means and infrastructure to create the wheat, computers and medicine we use on a daily basis.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Roland

      Theft is joy. Why invent when stealing ideas is so much more economically compelling and competitive.

      And endemic corruption is just so much more interesting than some antiquated rules based system; never a dull moment.

      And why would anyone want to leave a functioning ecology to other peoples children when one can simply take all that lovely money and move to the first world?

      Personally I’ve always hankered to move to Caracas and experience a superior civilization first hand.

      Thanks for the heads up George.

  • georgehants

    Patents are of no importance as long as our good friends such as the Russians Chinese etc. take the sensible course of completely ignoring them and producing Cold Fusion goods in the same way that they produce so many other things at a tenth of the price possible in parts of the bankrupt West.
    This allows some of the poor to have at least some very basic goods.
    Well done them, let us wish them every success, they may even beat our secret Cold Fusion fraternity and be the first to demonstrate unreservedly a genuine Cold Fusion device.
    Just a little link for those who believe that the American capitalist system is some kind of success today.
    ———–
    Behind the Facade: America, The Bankrupt Hegemon
    http://journal-neo.org/2016/03/06/behind-the-facade-america-the-bankrupt-hegemon/

    • Alan DeAngelis

      That’s assuming that communism wasn’t invented by capitalists.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      Right, so that’s why our computers, medicine, the internet etc. all comes from these countries?
      Exactly who’s contributing here and who’s leaching?

      When such countries develop the technology and medicine we use on a daily basis, then you might have an intellectual leg to stand on.

      Of course, you are free to move to such great countries with their great standard of living and
      human rights track records.

      😉

      Like all typical socialists, you want the wheat, but fail to realize such countries don’t create the means and infrastructure to create the wheat, computers and medicine we use on a daily basis.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Roland

      Theft is joy. Why invent when stealing ideas is so much more economically compelling and competitive.

      And endemic corruption is just so much more interesting than some antiquated rules based system; never a dull moment.

      And why would anyone want to leave a functioning ecology to other peoples children when one can simply take all that lovely money and move to the first world?

      Personally I’ve always hankered to move to Caracas and experience a superior civilization first hand.

      Thanks for the heads up George.

  • Jarea

    that is demagogic and suspicious from your side. You are not going to the point. Blaming others because they don´t help you when you do not help others first is hypocrite. As i said, LENR researchers will have all the funds they need if they make public their research. Look what MFMP did for him. Please, don´t expect that we all invest in something so that it remains hidden.

  • coolabuelo

    Obviously not!

  • Bob Matulis

    That much hydrogen (1 L) transmuting in seconds would produce a LOT of energy. I have not run the numbers but my guess is crater size of a city block?

  • Bob Matulis

    That much hydrogen (1 L) transmuting in seconds would produce a LOT of energy. I have not run the numbers but my guess is crater size of a city block?

  • Interesting – can you put up some links to his work, if available.

    Edit: Don’t worry – just being lazy. I’ve found what I need.

  • Anton Shevchenko

    me356, there is a Creative Commons licenses. Take a look.

    • Private Citizen

      Anton Shevchenko:“Creative Commons licenses”

      Interesting approach. What happens if you issue a CC license for something someone else already has patented? Or if you do so without doing an exhaustive patent search? Have seen such licenses mostly for copyright-able material. Still, might work.

      Until such time as me356 spills the beans he will remain full of them. Distrust, yet verify.

  • Byron McDonald

    To the shariing of IP without patents: https://hbr.org/2016/05/the-impact-of-the-blockchain-goes-beyond-financial-services – there are several organisations decompiling solutions for the management of the issue outside of the patent system. One would be Monetas in Switzerland. In the meantime it appears the resources available through MFMP would be a good place to go for Me356 to validate his approach and develop a commercially viable solution

    • help_lenr

      No. MFMP is not recognized them as authorities (out side this forum) the court will ignore them. Very naive idea.

      • help_lenr

        Typo errors, cannot edit. I meant nobody outside this forum would consider what they say as any evidence.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda
  • EnerGood

    Best would be to go together with Mr.Rossi and using the Same Strategy: penetrating the market with Huge Quantity Productions good quality and extremly low prices. That seems the best and is more secure than patending.

  • Bob Greenyer

    I am in regular contact with me356, an IP strategy is being worked on that would meet his criteria and be for available for him to consider. It will be published by us regardless so that others can consider it for its merits.

    Of course, there is nothing to say that what may or may not have been discovered has not already been discovered by a third party who may have already applied for patent priority – and even then received a banning order – in which case the knowledge would not be put in the public domain even of the application. Time is critical and method of disclosure very important.

    • The day that Bob Greenyer comes back from Eastern Europe and says, ‘I can confirm easily verifiable excess energy from me356’s reactors; MFMP will be starting a new series of experiments to verify in the next few weeks armed with some new key info shared by me356… Hang on to your hats, folks, it’s going to get wild!’… is the day the music dies on Planet Zero.

      And, Bob, please say it just like that so I can seem prescient : )

      • Bob Greenyer

        Given me356s belief that he has found something extremely significant, if he has, I can understand his position. We need to work to find a solution that works and both respects him, his chosen way of working and stress and risk for all involved.

        I cannot say for certain right now if he has anything, or specifically when things will be in place to allow him to put it forward for scrutiny, what I can say is I am working hard and fast with the right people to give that the best chance of happening and that as recently as last night me356 re-iterated his commitment to allow me to see and test at the earliest opportunity.

        If things are positive at that juncture, I shall do my best to hold your thoughts in mind.

        • “me356 re-iterated his commitment to allow me to see and test at the earliest opportunity”

          This is all trending in a very positive way and me356 seems like a reasonable chap to me. Good luck!

          • Bob Greenyer

            That was in the past 20 hours.

          • I must say that this has me very excited. You must be champing at the bit.

            So close to GAME OVER.

            me356 not lying. BG confirms. me356 shares enough. MFMP repeats. MFMP publishes repeatable recipe.

            THE AGE OF LENR BEGINS.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I can understand your enthusiasm, but I’d be wary of getting too excited.

          • Head is level, but I am watching with great interest. If you report confirmation, be prepared to back it up.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I’d really like to arrange a fuel ash test. That would be the most convincing thing for me.

    • Axil Axil

      LENR IP cannot be patented yet, the U.S. patent office does not except LENR as a valid concept.

      • Bob Greenyer

        That is the same licence we have been putting on things we publish – go look at the Celani wire processing document.

        You can still receive a patent priority date

    • Eyedoc

      Ah yes….the ol’ “banning order” rears its ugly head ….what kind of bureaucratic crap did such a thing evolve from ?

      • Bob Greenyer

        Likely vested interest lobby groups or the investments of those in charge.

        You can’t remain a super power if you don’t control the power.

  • Bob Greenyer

    I am in regular contact with me356, an IP strategy is being worked on that would meet his criteria and be for available for him to consider. It will be published by us regardless so that others can consider it for its merits.

    Of course, there is nothing to say that what may or may not have been discovered has not already been discovered by a third party who may have already applied for patent priority – and even then received a banning order – in which case the knowledge would not be put in the public domain even of the application. Time is critical and method of disclosure very important.

    • The day that Bob Greenyer comes back from Eastern Europe and says, ‘I can confirm easily verifiable excess energy from me356’s reactors; MFMP will be starting a new series of experiments to verify in the next few weeks armed with some new key info shared by me356… Hang on to your hats, folks, it’s going to get wild!’… is the day the music dies on Planet Zero.

      And, Bob, please say it just like that so I can seem prescient : )

      • Bob Greenyer

        Given me356s belief that he has found something extremely significant, if he has, I can understand his position. We need to work to find a solution that works and both respects him, his chosen way of working and stress and risk for all involved.

        I cannot say for certain right now if he has anything, or specifically when things will be in place to allow him to put it forward for scrutiny, what I can say is I am working hard and fast with the right people to give that the best chance of happening and that as recently as last night me356 re-iterated his commitment to allow me to see and test at the earliest opportunity.

        If things are positive at that juncture, I shall do my best to hold your thoughts in mind.

        • “me356 re-iterated his commitment to allow me to see and test at the earliest opportunity”

          This is all trending in a very positive way and me356 seems like a reasonable chap to me. Good luck!

          • Bob Greenyer

            That was in the past 20 hours.

          • I must say that this has me very excited. You must be champing at the bit.

            So close to GAME OVER.

            me356 not lying. BG confirms. me356 shares enough. MFMP repeats. MFMP publishes repeatable recipe.

            THE AGE OF LENR BEGINS.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I can understand your enthusiasm, but I’d be wary of getting too excited.

          • Head is level, but I am watching with great interest. If you report confirmation, be prepared to back it up.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I’d really like to arrange a fuel ash test. That would be the most convincing thing for me.

    • Axil Axil

      LENR IP cannot be patented yet, the U.S. patent office does not except LENR as a valid concept.

      Here is an idea that sounds good from barty

      What do you think about one of the different creative commons licenses?

      For example:

      http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

      It allows to share, improve and use it commercial, but you have to share the new findings and show the name of the initial inventor (in this case me356).

      • Bob Greenyer

        That is the same licence we have been putting on things we publish – go look at the Celani wire processing document.

        You can still receive a patent priority date

    • Eyedoc

      Ah yes….the ol’ “banning order” rears its ugly head ….what kind of bureaucratic crap did such a thing evolve from ?

      • Bob Greenyer

        Likely vested interest lobby groups or the investments of those in charge.

        You can’t remain a super power if you don’t control the power.

  • Private Citizen

    Anton Shevchenko:“Creative Commons licenses”

    Interesting approach. What happens if you issue a CC license for something someone else already has patented? Or if you do so without doing an exhaustive patent search? Have seen such licenses mostly for copyright-able material. Still, might work.

    Until such time as me356 spills the beans he will remain full of them. Distrust, yet verify.

  • LION

    Nature the Magician – Quantum Mechanics – oh such fun till it sneaks up behind you and bites you on the bum.

    I am perfectly sure what it is . . . in just few miliseconds even 1L of hydrogen can just “disappear” and is irreversibly transformed to other kind of energy (including neutron radiation). We can completely exclude lithium or similar compounds that can create a hydrides . . . Enormous COP can be achieved (100 and more).”

    me356 I hope you may find the following useful and interesting:

    Missing: One Quarter Hydrogen

    When is water not H2O? Why, when it’s H1.5O. In 1995 German and British physicists began bombarding water molecules with energetic neutrons to analyze proton behavior and found 25 percent fewer scattered neutrons than expected, suggesting that a quarter of the hydrogen nuclei (protons) became invisible. Although the result held up in benzene (C6H6) and hydrogenated metals, the group wanted to verify it by an independent technique. Now the scientists have struck a solid polymer called formvar (C8H14O2) with electrons instead of neutrons, and the hydrogen gap remains. Theorists attribute the partial transparency to short-lived quantum entanglement between protons. In the less than 10 to the minus 15 second required for scattering, a proton exists in a delicate, interconnected quantum state. The entanglement causes the proton to interfere destructively with itself, effectively wiping out a portion of itself. The scattering particles feel only the remaining portion. Details are in the August 1 Physical Review Letters

    – JR Minkel. Scientific American October 2003
    apologies for the non superscript H20 ETC.

    TO Bob Greenyer- HI Bob, do you have an update on the wonderful news you shared last year of the Palladium wire you received from on of Martins close friends, thanks.

  • LION

    Nature the Magician – Quantum Mechanics – oh such fun till it sneaks up behind you and bites you on the bum.

    I am perfectly sure what it is . . . in just few miliseconds even 1L of hydrogen can just “disappear” and is irreversibly transformed to other kind of energy (including neutron radiation). We can completely exclude lithium or similar compounds that can create a hydrides . . . Enormous COP can be achieved (100 and more).”

    me356 I hope you may find the following useful and interesting:

    Missing: One Quarter Hydrogen

    When is water not H2O? Why, when it’s H1.5O. In 1995 German and British physicists began bombarding water molecules with energetic neutrons to analyze proton behavior and found 25 percent fewer scattered neutrons than expected, suggesting that a quarter of the hydrogen nuclei (protons) became invisible. Although the result held up in benzene (C6H6) and hydrogenated metals, the group wanted to verify it by an independent technique. Now the scientists have struck a solid polymer called formvar (C8H14O2) with electrons instead of neutrons, and the hydrogen gap remains. Theorists attribute the partial transparency to short-lived quantum entanglement between protons. In the less than 10 to the minus 15 second required for scattering, a proton exists in a delicate, interconnected quantum state. The entanglement causes the proton to interfere destructively with itself, effectively wiping out a portion of itself. The scattering particles feel only the remaining portion. Details are in the August 1 Physical Review Letters

    – JR Minkel. Scientific American October 2003
    apologies for the non superscript H20 ETC.

    TO Bob Greenyer- HI Bob, do you have an update on the wonderful news you shared last year of the Palladium wire you received from on of Martins close friends, thanks.