Leonardo/Industrial Heat Court Case on "Complex Track" — to go to Jury Trial in September 2017 (Rossi: Effect on E-Cat Commercial "None")

Thanks to Sifferkoll for providing links to the latest court documents in the Rossi/Industrial Heat court case.

Andrea Rossi has gotten what he requested so far — the court case has not been dismissed as requested by Industrial Heat, and it will go to a jury trial.

However there will be a long time to wait until a resolution of this case (unless there is a settlement out of court) as the trial is scheduled to begin on September 17, 2017 (see here)

This document states that the decision has been made to put the case into a “Complex Track”, because of “(a) the number of potential witnesses, and (b) the novelty and complexity of some factual issues which will require expert engineering and scientific testimony, (c) the likelihood of taking depositions in foreign jurisdictions and (d) the likelihood that the trial in this cause will last more than ten (10) days”

Links to the latest documents can be found at Sifferkoll.com here: http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/new-court-documents-on-pacermonitor/

This year+ long wait will give plenty of time for research and discovery on both sides, and for endless speculation for outsiders! I don’t expect that Andrea Rossi will be slowing down his work on the QuarkX and commercialization of the E-Cat plants. Maybe the delay will be a welcome lift of pressure for him. It sounds possible now that we won’t get to see the ERV report from the 1MW plant test until next year at the earliest!

UPDATE:

A few more pertinent quotes from this court document:

“Although the parties are open to discussing settlement, at this stage of the proceedings settlement appears unlikely”

“It is possible that additional parties might be added to this case if Defendents file counterclaims and/or third party claims.” (Maybe IH will be cooperating with other aggrieved parties who wish to take legal action against Rossi/Leonardo)

“The parties contemplate submitting to the court a proposed protective order providing for the confidentiality of certain documents and information exchanged in discovery, and further contemplate negotiation and electronic discovery protocol to govern the exchange of electronic discovery.” (this would probably cover the ERV report)

“As of the time of this report, Defendants have yet to file an answer to Plaintiff’s Complaint, and may elect to file counterclaims and/or third party claims if required to answer the Complaint” (It sounds from this that IH are thinking about responding to Rossi’s complaint with a counter-suit if they are ordered to respond by the judge)

UPDATE (July 1, 2016)

I asked Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics, “What effect does delaying the start of the trial until September 2017 have upon your plans to commercialize the E-Cats?”

His answer was: “none.”

  • artefact

    September 2017. Wow ๐Ÿ™‚

    • MasterBlaster7

      I think that is about standard for a case like this…pray it doesn’t last 20 years.

  • artefact

    September 2017. Wow ๐Ÿ™‚

    • MasterBlaster7

      I think that is about standard for a case like this…pray it doesn’t last 20 years.

      • enantiomer2000

        well Rossi claims that he will have his e-cats for sale before that date, so if that is the case and it does go to court, IH wiould have a hard time arguing that the tech doesn’t work. Not saying that I believe that Rossi is anywhere near commercialization, only that it is what he claims…

        • MasterBlaster7

          Oh, that is great news. Do you have a source on…”well Rossi claims that he will have his e-cats for sale before that date”…I would be interested to read that.

          • enantiomer2000

            MasterBlaster7, I don’t have a source to give you. I just remember reading in the tangled web of Rossi posts from this website that he plans on having the products commercialized in the next 6 months or so. I don’t feel like going through all the posts to try to find the source…

  • Wow! But from what Frank wrote above, it will be a “complex” doozy when it finally starts.

  • Brokeeper

    If on schedule, as Rossi hopes, I doubt the 1MW plant report will have as much weight by then considering many plants will have been operating for months with customers’ blessings. I believe the battle, if not resolved before then, will revolve around the original IP contract verbiage as to IH’s usage rights. Then the jury will have to decide.
    I agree, because of the long wait time, Rossi will come out of this very well by end of next year.

  • Brokeeper

    If on schedule, as Rossi hopes, I doubt the 1MW plant report will have as much weight by then considering many plants will have been operating for months with customers’ blessings. I believe the battle, if not resolved before then, will revolve around the original IP contract verbiage as to IH’s usage rights. Then the jury will have to decide.
    I agree, because of the long wait time, Rossi will come out of this very well by end of next year.

    • LookMoo

      This will probably not go to court.

      If Rossi have just some few plants in operation by customers. IH can not say it does not work. IH have no case.

      IH knows that.

      IH plan is to cause DELAY and one thing only Delays.

      If IH finds that a court hearing is a very good way to delays LENR further, only then it will reconsider and go to court.

    • roseland67

      Bro,
      As always, love your optimism,
      But reality suggests otherwise

      • Brokeeper

        My optimism is calculated optimism. Optimism and reality are not necessary mutually exclusive. I share Andrea Rossi’s realistic viewpoint and LookMoo’s logic below. I know of only one remote chance that a wrench could be thrown into the works within the year.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Believe me, if there is no settlement, it will be 2020 before there is a jury trial. This is just what IH wants, a delay which will impact the credibility of LENR.

    • help_lenr

      I think there is a dead line for starting the actual jury sessions in September 2017 and the trial will take a few days. I believe that Rossi would not accept any settlement which not cancel completely the agreement in dispute.

      The agreement has high value for him because it gave IH much more than 50 percents of the market.

      I’m glad that the MTD was rejected (this is what I understand).

      • roseland67

        What exactly is a “deadline”?

        • MasterBlaster7

          A “deadline” is a statement that tells me that people don’t know shit about the law in here haha.

          Seriously, Frank, could you do an interview with a lawyer who is familiar with cases like these….just to get an ‘opinioned’ timetable on how he/she thinks this would unfold? I remember reading a lawyers prognostication at the beginning of this suit and it helped, alot, to put things into perspective.

      • help_lenr

        Seems now that the MTD not rejected as yet, but (unless MTD accepted) the deadline of 17 September 2017 as start actual jury process remains

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Good luck with the 2017 “deadline”. The attorney name of the game is billable hours, delay, delay, billable hours, delay, delay, billable hours.

    • MasterBlaster7

      That may well be true. But, are you a lawyer familiar with matters like these Bernie? I appreciate your speculation, but I would like to get the opinion of an actual lawyer familiar with cases like these and probable time tables.

      Also, consider that your 2020 would be the BEGINNING of a jury trial. The trial could take a substantial amount of time. And, then there are the appeals post trial. If there is an attorney in the house, I would like to get a sense of pre-trial, trial, and post trial.

      Side note…thank god this wont (with the proper investment) hold up production and distribution in Europe.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Lawsuit experience tells me there are a thousand ways lawyers can extend the trial date, and IH has hired the best.

        • MasterBlaster7

          So, what you are telling me is that your legal knowledge comes from being sued a bunch of times; haha. But, I agree. There are a thousand ways lawyers can extend trial dates. That is why I would like a lawyer with experience in matters like these to give an ‘opinioned’ play by play and ‘opinioned’ time table.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            He, he, yes it comes from $$$$$ experience. As far as asking an attorney, I am not going to call mine, he is cheap at $400 an hour but I reserve that call for emergencies. I would encourage you to call yours for an opinion. (:

          • HS61AF91

            If this helps, it looks like they followed the Florida format for complex civil cases. (https://privatelee.com/search/?q=timeline+for+complex+civil+cases+in+florida&s=sbv2) I guess a lawyer can comment on variations/possibilities within this framework, and that may not be so enlightening. I suspect that the doctore knew this would transpire, and is satisfied with his E-cat Quark X upcoming distributions.

    • roseland67

      Bernie,
      Neither Rossi nor IH care about credibility
      If either did, they would just give an Ecat to NASA, make them sign a famous Rossi NdA and let NASA test the @@&$/ thing, but they don’t, and I always wonder why?

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I simply disagree, if IH can attack LENR credibility it can delay implementation, which is their goal.

        • roseland67

          Then give an Ecat to NASA, the overwhelming majority of people in The world would believe NASA and the overwhelming majority of the world have never even heard of IH, Darden, Cherokee etc.
          What IH says is worth less than 2 dead flies, NASA proves it either works as stated or it doesn’t,
          I believe this is what Rossi is worried about

          • Brokeeper

            Who is to say they haven’t either directly or via the DOD? What do you think NDA means?

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Right or wrong, Rossi looks at NASA as a competitor and for him would be like giving his undeveloped invention to GE for testing. He has also stated he believes strongly that free enterprise in the private sector is the best way to introduce LENR into the economy, unencumbered by government bureaucracy and lobbyists. I tend to agree with him after seeing how lobbyists can twist our elected government into knots to only benefit lobbyist clients.

          • HS61AF91

            NASA’s been making a lot of amazing discoveries lately. (deep oceans on Mars, lights within an large asteroid, millions of earth-like planets, etc.) Maybe LENR practicality is coming up as another one soon. Depends on unknown, but possible reasons, too vague to speculate on what the reasons are.

  • MasterBlaster7

    See. It is exactly legal time scales like these that I say focus on Rossi’s Leonardo production and Rossi’s Leonardo distribution in Europe. Also, any new investors in Leonardo. Because, following this case…that way madness lies. I was pulling my hair out just waiting for the 1 year test to end….this legal case is 20 times worse.

  • MasterBlaster7

    See. It is exactly legal time scales like these that I say focus on Rossi’s Leonardo production and Rossi’s Leonardo distribution in Europe. Also, any new investors in Leonardo. Because, following this case…that way madness lies. I was pulling my hair out just waiting for the 1 year test to end….this legal case is 20 times worse.

  • bfast

    Man, can I sit on the jury? I’d love to use up my jury duty service on such an interesting topic!

    • DrD

      Hehe, can we ask questions, can we cross examine all the witnesses?

    • Brokeeper

      You will automatically be excluded, Sorry. ๐Ÿ™

  • bfast

    Man, can I sit on the jury? I’d love to use up my jury duty service on such an interesting topic!

    • DrD

      Hehe, can we ask questions, can we cross examine all the witnesses?

    • Brokeeper

      You will be immediately excluded, Sorry. ๐Ÿ™

  • roseland67

    So how many Ecats get sold & installed before the trial?

    • DrD

      That would be the best evidence the Jury could ask for but — sigh — will there be many with this hanging over half the world.

      • Omega Z

        It would only take 1 confirmed happy customer outside the original IH market.

      • roseland67

        DrD,

        There will be the same as before the lawsuit.

  • Ged

    I like that the court is preparing for “and (b) the novelty and complexity of some factual issues which will require expert engineering and scientific testimony”. So they are looking to pull in experts to discuss the facts in the ERV report; that is excellent, and expected since the ERV report is the center of the entire matter of paying 89 million or not.

    • Roger Roger

      The nitpicking shitstorm will be glorious
      I pity that judge who’s gonna go through a litteral HELL of biased affirmations, blanket denegations and subtly erroneous interpretations

      • DrD

        Yes but what about the Jury though.

        • HS61AF91

          If the jury is ordinary folk, they’ll wind up saying screw the lawyers and find for Rossi. The more complex, the sooner! That’s my optimistic feeling of what will happen.

  • enantiomer2000

    Yet another report that is never to be released.

  • BillH

    If IH really wanted to slow things down then AR has played right into their hands. Not withstanding Leonardo Corp statement that the LA has been dissolved it is very likely that IH will block any attempt to launch product into any markets which they still believe they have an exclusive agreement to produce in. That will include Xs and Quarks.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      It seems to me that the Industrial heat wants to get back his $ 10 million, and does not want any quarks …

    • Engineer48

      Hi Bill,

      The License Agreement has not been dissolved. What Rossi did was to trigger the termination events, which prevent IP from using the IP and from engaging in any business against Rossi for a VERY long time. The License Agreement is still in effect and binding on all parties.

  • BillH

    If IH really wanted to slow things down then AR has played right into their hands. Not withstanding Leonardo Corp statement that the LA has been dissolved it is very likely that IH will block any attempt to launch product into any markets which they still believe they have an exclusive agreement to produce in. That will include Xs and Quarks.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      It seems to me that the Industrial heat wants to get back his $ 10 million, and does not want any quarks …

    • Engineer48

      Hi Bill,

      The License Agreement has not been dissolved. What Rossi did was to trigger the termination events, which prevent IP from using the IP and from engaging in any business against Rossi for a VERY long time. The License Agreement is still in effect and binding on all parties.

  • Turbo3

    The Judge has not yet ruled on the Motion to Dismiss. If she dismisses all counts there will be no trial.

    This is just setting dates assuming the case moves forward. Says nothing about the Motion to Dismiss.

    (Why do I still need to wait hours before my posts appear?)

  • Ophelia Rump

    I don’t think we will “hear” about any sales and manufacturing actually taking place in the disputed regions until after the trial. What happens under NDA can be an entire industry. For either or both sides.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I don’t think we will “hear” about any sales and manufacturing actually taking place in the disputed regions until after the trial. What happens under NDA can be an entire industry. For either or both sides.

  • Chapman

    Before anyone gets their panties in a wad thinking the Judge assigned the case to a “Complex Track” because of the scientific complexity of the issue, I would point out that the quote above is a statement that the Court set that track because the Parties – IH and/or Rossi – requested it, and the verbiage is a quote from the parties request, not a statement on the part of the Judge.

    In this case, both parties were happy with the long delay, so the Judge happily granted it. It will go through a long process of mediation, lots of depositions in several countries, and the issue will likely be resolved before the scheduled court date. As the strength of one side or the other builds up through the discovery and deposition phase, and as events continue in the real world which may have a profound impact on the question – such as three 1 MW reactors being delivered and functioning as advertised in an industrial environment – either Rossi will have to concede failure, or IH will have to face a hopeless and undefendable position.

    Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the “(b) the novelty and complexity of some factual issues which will require expert engineering and scientific testimony” is not a determination by the court regarding the legal question, nor an expressed opinion of the Judge as to what will be admissible or considered relevant in the eventual Trial. This was simply the reason for the requested delay – that the parties needed 15 months to get expert testimony in order to prepare their case – and the Judge acquiesced. But take note: the Judge granted them the requested time to prepare, but then put the Hearing on the schedule with an estimated duration of TWO WEEKS! Folks, two weeks means the Judge anticipates a quickie! Two weeks is nothing. I have seen consumer product liability cases involving fingernail clippers take 3 months. Two weeks means the Judge KNOWS it is a cut-and-dried case.

    The judge will not care about the placement of flow meters and thermocouples unless they were placed contrary to the agreed to protocol, per the contract.

    I will add this one last observation. If Weaver and Jed had been correct/informed/sane regarding the so called “BLATANT and OVERWHELMING incompetence of the ERV report” which we have all been hearing SO MUCH about these last few days of the FUD onslaught, IH would never have asked for the “slow boat”. Having such overwhelming and undeniable proof that the ERV was fraudulent would have led IH, as the defendant, to demand as immediate a court date as the docket could accommodate. Instead, they BEGGED the judge to DELAY as long as possible, even while knowing that Rossi is working feverishly as we speak to prove, by way of getting functioning products on the market, that the ERV was correct in it’s assessment! Clearly, we have been lied to, over and over again. Just thought I would mention it…

    Let’s see how many voices go silent now that IH is no longer going to be paying for a FUD campaign. Wanna make any bets???

    • Barbierir

      If half of what Dewey claimed is true we will see criminal charges against Rossi long before the trial. Now Dewey has gone silent and I got the strong feeling that no such charges will ever materialize. I also feel that IH will never release the report that is allegedly so damning for Rossi.

      • Chapman

        You know, that is a very real possibility. While my intuition tells me that Rossi is an honest and decent man, and unlikely to be intentionally perpetrating a fraud, that does not mean he is not deluding himself regarding the E-Cat. Now, don’t get me wrong – I am not expressing personal doubt! – I am saying that the possibility exists that Rossi is wrong, but unable to see it, and that IH interprets that as an intent to defraud, and that leads to prosecution. A reasonable conjecture, and one would expect that IH would have taken such steps long ago if they believed a tenth of what Dewey/Jed have been reporting.

      • US_Citizen71

        I would be more worried about Darden going to jail for securities fraud.

        • MasterBlaster7

          Nah. I think this is ‘eventually’ going to be ruled a simple breach of contract. Darden wont have to pay the 89 million. Rossi will keep the 10 million…and get all of his licencing and distribution rights back.

    • Turbo3

      It is IH and Rossi that made the schedule and submitted it to the court. It is IH and Rossi that estimated 2 weeks in the documents they jointly submitted.

      The Judge did not submit these documents so most of your analysis needs updating.

      • Chapman

        You are correct! Even the two week estimate came from the joint submission, good catch!

        My brain fixated on the nature and source of item B, and I then just filed the 10 day estimate as a calendar issue (my brain was still chewing on “B” and choked on “D”!), but this just reinforces the point of my post – which was that the statements quoted came from the parties themselves, not the Judge. I was making the observation that the references to scientific complexity and expert engineering analysis were not in any way a reflection of the opinions or intentions of the Judge.

    • DrD

      At least we now know that it isn’t simply a case of the Jury agreeing
      that the payment was contractually due once the agreed (jointly by both
      parties) ERV report is positive (amount depending on the COP).
      I think there was that thought being debated earlier but in reality It never was going to be so simple.
      What a mess!

      • Chapman

        With every possible ounce of respect – we know no such thing.

        That was the essence of my post! This filing gives us NO insight to what will be deemed admissible or relevant, or what specific question will be allowed to be presented to the jury.

        IH can take a year and develop whatever arguments they believe will be persuasive. They can conduct reviews, solicit expert opinions, compile impressive flowcharts and diagrams, and gather BS data sufficient to fill their briefs… But when it gets to court, and IH presents an argument; Rossi says “Objection… Irrelevant to the question of the contract” the judge says “Sustained – councellor, please limit your arguments to the agreements and conditions set forth in the compact” and POOF – 1 year of nonsense prep goes out the window…

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      The success or failure of products Rossi issued on the market has no relation to litigation between Leonardo and Industrial heat

      • Chapman

        I am trying to be nice these days, but that statement is utterly absurd…

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          Why absurd? In court, the discussion regarding the specific tests and pay a specific amount at a performance of the device (1 MW plant).

          • Chapman

            You correctly point out that the argument is over specific tests and an agreed to action based upon the result of the third party evaluator. BUT! – you must keep in mind that while IH is admitting that they did not honor the contractual agreement, they are claiming they were justified in doing so because they detected, and can PROVE, that the report was fraudulent and the device in question was basically inert.

            While Rossi NOT getting products to market will not prove IH correct, there is no arguing that the successful launch of the identical product onto the marketplace with a host of happy and vocal customers would totally negate IH’s defense. IH would have no justification for defaulting other than they THOUGHT they were being defrauded, and that is no basis for dismissing their liability for having thought wrong. Because of this, if Rossi gets to market and has a source of “Testimonials” then IH will have no choice but to seek a settlement and make restitution directly with him.

    • IH is no longer paying for a FUD campaign? When did they stop? When did they start? What evidence do you have for this double assertion?

      • Chapman

        When I come in from my lovely yard I often find I must carefully wipe the soles of my shoes, as they have been fouled with the vile evidence that my yard has once again been invaded by my neighbor’s Labrador. I do not SEE the dog himself, mind you, but his recent presence is manifestly clear by the shit he malevolently spreads with such glee that one would think it was his life’s sole ambition!

        His little “visits” stain my peaceful refuge with a lingering stench that is an assault upon the senses, and that corruption significantly detracts from the simple enjoyment I might otherwise derive from those stolen moments I am able to devote to my gardening hobby.

        As it is with other dogs, so it is with Darden and his assorted bitches…

        • ahhh, a standard non-answer answer

  • help_lenr

    Seems now that the MTD not rejected as yet, but (unless MTD accepted) the deadline of 17 September 2017 as start actual jury process remains

  • akupaku

    A question to Engineer48:

    I think you said earlier that your potential clients for the 1MW reactors intend to wait until the legal issues are resolved. Does this now mean that they will not buy any test reactors from Leonardo until the court case is over some time late 2017 or even 2018?

    How does this affect your other plans to use Rossi/Leonardo reactors?

    It seems likely and logical to me that IH will try to block any sales in the markets that it had (or still has?) so Leonardo might only be able to sell in its original markets in Europe etc.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      f quark’s the real thing no one bothers her to certify and release under the guise of an electric heater or spotlight. Apparently Industrial Heat has no claim to the creation of quark’s.

    • Omega Z

      If Rossi puts a product on the market that proves beyond doubt to do just half what he claims, I would think the court case would explode in Rossi’s favor before ever going to court.

      However, If there was a concern of selling in the U.S. or a court ordered injunction preventing U.S. sales, One could easily go to Europe and by a system then have it shipped back.

      Note: Years ago, a Contractor found that Caterpillar tractor inc was selling a specific tractor for about 1/3rd the U.S. price through a Russian distributor. The distributor wasn’t allowed to sell product outside it’s market zone nor would Caterpillar give the Contractor a discount. The Contractor flew to Russia, purchased the tractor and had it shipped to the U.S.. All said, the Contractor saved about 50% after all expenses.

      • DrD

        True I suppose.
        It used to work like that for UK. We could buy German or French cars at a huge reduction and import them. It was messy and at first we had to have the steering wheel on the wrong side. Then some individuals set up in business doing just that and managed to get them with right hand drive.

      • MasterBlaster7

        “proves beyond doubt”….I think you mean “proves beyond a reasonable doubt” Omega. And, that is not necessary here. The “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard is 85% ish likely to be true and used in criminal cases…not civil. With Rossi’s reactor…for this case….it would be “preponderance of the evidence”….which is 51% ish likely to be true.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Well, in the case of some tractor, or even โ€œgrayโ€ electronic products it can be hard to stop and control the flow of such products into other jurisdictions. Usually the manufacture or head company will cancel the dealership of who is selling outside of their jurisdiction. For
        some time, Canadian auto dealers were selling products into the USA, but the major automakers threatened such dealers with losing their dealerships. The result was dealers stopped selling new cars, but tons of lease backs etc. still continued going south to the USA.

        In the case of IH, they could likely have some kind of injunction โ€“ the customs people would likely respect such a request for imported products.

        So IH could likely stop such devices coming into the country. This also may explain why Rossi building a plant in the USA.

        Perhaps the Europe manufacturing going to be the Quark-X, and thus this might circumvent the USA license restrictions that are currently tied up in court.

        And if the court case were to go in favor of IH, then they could claim compensation for any device that Rossi sells into their marketplace.

        It would seem Rossi does not care either way.

        I do agree with many here stating that โ€œifโ€ Rossi can start selling devices before the court date, then that act does strengthen his position. This would force IH to fight for their distribution and market rights in court. While perhaps not the best case for Rossi, it certainly would be great for the public since then IH would in public be conceding that
        LENR and the ecat works.

        Of course if Rossi start selling ecats, then the court case is only a legal matter โ€“ not one of commercial LENR products existing and for sale.

        I am betting that most readers here care little about the court case, but care GREATLY about LENR products being sold. That day in which a customer can purchase a LENR device will be a historic and great day indeed!

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Omega Z

          In the above situation, Caterpillar was lucky to have a distributor in Russia. It was shortly after the wall came down. Politics played more into who your business distributors were.(cronyism was at play)

          The Contractor could have bought a cheaper competitors variant of the tractor(KOMATSU) and Cat would have lost more then a little profit. They could have lost the sale entirely. However, the Contractor preferred Caterpillar product and had options to obtain it.

          Obviously, there is no competitor in the E-cat situation, but there is national Television News networks. In a news conference, I announce I’ve purchased a product that can save my customers 75% or more on the utilitiy bills. But these jerks are preventing me from using my legally purchased product to do so. What does the public think???

          Obviously, Rossi needs a verified working product available 1st.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            The whole issue of โ€œpublicโ€ is a VERY powerful point. Rossi has been very smart to โ€œgatherโ€ an internet following, as it quite much means some PR firm canโ€™t roll over him in the public eye.

            I think any press announcement from a customer having purchased a working LENR device amounts to a loaded howitzer pointed at IH and the skeptical community in general.

            Such a PR game with working LENR devices is a huge poker hand that Rossi can play at any time (assuming Rossi is delivering working devices).

            Such a press release would result in a news and internet firestorm of the likes we not seen in a long time.

            Rossi may eventually want to unleash such a storm when he feels the timing is ripe.

            The delivery of working LENR devices is the birth and launch of a multi-trillion dollar industry. Behind the scenes, there has to be a ton of vested interests in the world that pray Rossi does not have what he claims.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Engineer48

      Hi Akupaku,

      The court has not yet dismissed the MTD, so taking of a trial is improper.

      I keep my potential client advised of how the legal situation is progressing. It is there call when they want to move forward.

      As for my Remote QuarkX powered plants, I will move forward as soon as Andrea gives me notice the reactors are ready to sign a purchase order.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Are you a lawyer Engineer48?

        • Engineer48

          Hi MB,

          Bush Lawyer who has seen both sides of a LOT of contracts and some that went very badly wrong.

          I do know, from painful experience, how we read contracts and how the courts read the same contract. Had to learn how to read contracts like the legal guys do to survive.

          • MasterBlaster7

            Ah good, finally, a lawyer. Couple of questions…

            1. What is your theory on why and how this all went down…and to what purpose? (both sides)

            2. What do you think the time scale on this is going to be. I see we have the 2017 date…but how do you think this will play out and what kind of time scales are we looking at? (pre-trial, trial, post-trial) Just want an educated guess here.

          • Engineer48

            Hi MB,

            My lay degree is from the schools of hard knocks.

            It went down because IH refused to oblige the payment conditions of clause 3.2c after the ERV deliver his report showing a COP > 50.

            The lawyers will drag this out as long as they can. It is a game called “Billable Hours” that all real lawyers very quickly learn to play.

          • William D. Fleming

            I think it will drag out until the opposing parties are broke and all their money is in the pockets of the lawyers.

          • Brokeeper

            The corruption level of a society is indirectly proportional to the number of lawyers it has. ๐Ÿ™‚

          • Chapman

            NO WORRIES!

            “Rear-End” Concussions are the Worst! I had one myself, when I was a kid. I fell hard and broke my Bum. Seriously! Cracked it right down the middle… Damn thing still hasn’t healed back…

            (HA! That’s a Joke, Get it? See what I did there???)

            Keep posting, and don’t worry about corrections. Love having you here and nobody’s going to trash you over grammer. Thinking and Engaging here is good recuperative therapy.

            (Oh, and to be honest, I was not correcting you! I thought you were honoring the profession, which I understand – as we are a nation of Laws – and I was only posting a quip deriding the profession for conversation sake. You know, like “Q: What do you call a Hundred dead Lawyers in a pool? A: A Damn Good Start!!!”)

          • Brokeeper

            Haha! Thanks for your encouraging words. I enjoy
            your comments that are contributing much to this blog.

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          After Rossi beat the dishes with Industrial heat technology, many engineers retrained into lawyer

    • Brokeeper

      This is the remote possibility I was thinking of by disrupting the E-cat sales in the US. But once customers in the European community start operating their plants, the attempts to slow production in US will lay PR consequences upon IH’s head.

  • akupaku

    A question to Engineer48:

    I think you said earlier that your potential clients for the 1MW reactors intend to wait until the legal issues are resolved. Does this now mean that they will not buy any test reactors from Leonardo until the court case is over some time late 2017 or even 2018 or later?

    How does this affect your other plans to use Rossi/Leonardo reactors?

    It seems possible to me that IH will try to block any sales in the markets that it had (or still has?) so Leonardo might only be able to sell in its original markets in Europe etc. However, I cannot imagine what their arguments for such blocking would be. Any sale attempts by Leonardo in IH markets might start a new dispute and court case about the licensing rights but it sounds strange to me if IH would dispute licensing rights of a product that it says does not work. It would seem bad to their position in the current court case.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      f quark’s the real thing no one bothers her to certify and release under the guise of an electric heater or spotlight. Apparently Industrial Heat has no claim to the creation of quark’s.

    • Omega Z

      If Rossi puts a product on the market that proves beyond doubt to do just half what he claims, I would think the court case would explode in Rossi’s favor before ever going to court.

      However, If there was a concern of selling in the U.S. or a court ordered injunction preventing U.S. sales, One could easily go to Europe and by a system then have it shipped back.

      Note: Years ago, a Contractor found that Caterpillar tractor inc was selling a specific tractor for about 1/3rd the U.S. price through a Russian distributor. The distributor wasn’t allowed to sell product outside it’s market zone nor would Caterpillar give the Contractor a discount. The Contractor flew to Russia, purchased the tractor and had it shipped to the U.S.. All said, the Contractor saved about 50% after all expenses.

      • DrD

        True I suppose.
        It used to work like that for UK. We could buy German or French cars at a huge reduction and import them. It was messy and at first we had to have the steering wheel on the wrong side. Then some individuals set up in business doing just that and managed to get them with right hand drive.

      • MasterBlaster7

        “proves beyond doubt”….I think you mean “proves beyond a reasonable doubt” Omega. And, that is not necessary here. The “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard is 85% ish likely to be true and used in criminal cases…not civil. With Rossi’s reactor…for this case….it would be “preponderance of the evidence”….which is 51% ish likely to be true.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Well, in the case of some tractor, or even โ€œgrayโ€ electronic products it can be hard to stop and control the flow of such products into other jurisdictions. Usually the manufacture or head company will cancel the dealership of who is selling outside of their jurisdiction. For
        some time, Canadian auto dealers were selling products into the USA, but the major automakers threatened such dealers with losing their dealerships. The result was dealers stopped selling new cars, but tons of lease backs etc. still continued going south to the USA.

        In the case of IH, they could likely have some kind of injunction โ€“ the customs people would likely respect such a request for imported products.

        So IH could likely stop such devices coming into the country. This also may explain why Rossi building a plant in the USA.

        Perhaps the Europe manufacturing going to be the Quark-X, and thus this might circumvent the USA license restrictions that are currently tied up in court.

        And if the court case were to go in favor of IH, then they could claim compensation for any device that Rossi sells into their marketplace.

        It would seem Rossi does not care either way.

        I do agree with many here stating that โ€œifโ€ Rossi can start selling devices before the court date, then that act does strengthen his position. This would force IH to fight for their distribution and market rights in court. While perhaps not the best case for Rossi, it certainly would be great for the public since then IH would in public be conceding that
        LENR and the ecat works.

        Of course if Rossi start selling ecats, then the court case is only a legal matter โ€“ not one of commercial LENR products existing and for sale.

        I am betting that most readers here care little about the court case, but care GREATLY about LENR products being sold. That day in which a customer can purchase a LENR device will be a historic and great day indeed!

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Omega Z

          In the above situation, Caterpillar was lucky to have a distributor in Russia. It was shortly after the wall came down. Politics played more into who your business distributors were.(cronyism was at play)

          The Contractor could have bought a cheaper competitors variant of the tractor(KOMATSU) and Cat would have lost more then a little profit. They could have lost the sale entirely. However, the Contractor preferred Caterpillar product and had options to obtain it.

          Obviously, there is no competitor in the E-cat situation, but there is national Television News networks. In a news conference, I announce I’ve purchased a product that can save my customers 75% or more on the utilitiy bills. But these jerks are preventing me from using my legally purchased product to do so. What does the public think???

          Obviously, Rossi needs a verified working product available 1st.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            The whole issue of โ€œpublicโ€ is a VERY powerful point. Rossi has been very smart to โ€œgatherโ€ an internet following, as it quite much means some PR firm canโ€™t roll over him in the public eye.

            I think any press announcement from a customer having purchased a working LENR device amounts to a loaded howitzer pointed at IH and the skeptical community in general.

            Such a PR game with working LENR devices is a huge poker hand that Rossi can play at any time (assuming Rossi is delivering working devices).

            Such a press release would result in a news and internet firestorm of the likes we not seen in a long time.

            Rossi may eventually want to unleash such a storm when he feels the timing is ripe.

            The delivery of working LENR devices is the birth and launch of a multi-trillion dollar industry. Behind the scenes, there has to be a ton of vested interests in the world that pray Rossi does not have what he claims.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Engineer48

      Hi Akupaku,

      The court has not yet dismissed the MTD, so taking of a trial is improper.

      I keep my potential client advised of how the legal situation is progressing. It is there call when they want to move forward.

      As for my Remote QuarkX powered plants, I will move forward as soon as Andrea gives me notice the reactors are ready to sign a purchase order.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Are you a lawyer Engineer48?

        • Engineer48

          Hi MB,

          Bush Lawyer who has seen both sides of a LOT of contracts and some that went very badly wrong.

          I do know, from painful experience, how we read contracts and how the courts read the same contract. Had to learn how to read contracts like the legal guys do to survive.

          • MasterBlaster7

            Ah good, finally, a lawyer. Couple of questions…

            1. What is your theory on why and how this all went down…and to what purpose? (both sides)

            2. What do you think the time scale on this is going to be. I see we have the 2017 date…but how do you think this will play out and what kind of time scales are we looking at? (pre-trial, trial, post-trial) Just want an educated guess here.

          • Engineer48

            Hi MB,

            My lay degree is from the schools of hard knocks.

            It went down because IH refused to oblige the payment conditions of clause 3.2c after the ERV deliver his report showing a COP > 50.

            The lawyers will drag this out as long as they can. It is a game called “Billable Hours” that all real lawyers very quickly learn to play.

          • William D. Fleming

            I think it will drag out until the opposing parties are broke and all their money is in the pockets of the lawyers.

          • Brokeeper

            The corruption level of a society is directly proportional to the number of lawyers it has. (I changed this to “directly” from “inversely” – thanks Chapman – I’ve made a couple of corrections lately – I’m recovering from a rear-end concussion. ๐Ÿ™‚ )

          • bachcole

            Is this because a corrupt society needs lawyers, or because lawyers cause a corrupt society. Trust me when I tell you that I hate the guts of many lawyers, but I believe that the law profession helps us function without us all killing each other.

          • Brokeeper

            HA! That is a conundrum.
            I understand, once being on the wrong end of justice bought by the highest bidder.

          • Chapman

            … and Inversely Proportional to Civilian Gun Sales…

          • Brokeeper

            Thanks Chapman. Changed it above.

          • Chapman

            NO WORRIES!

            “Rear-End” Concussions are the Worst! I had one myself, when I was a kid. I fell hard and broke my Bum. Seriously! Cracked it right down the middle… Damn thing still hasn’t healed back…

            (HA! That’s a Joke, Get it? See what I did there???)

            Keep posting, and don’t worry about corrections. Love having you here and nobody’s going to trash you over grammer. Thinking and Engaging here is good recuperative therapy.

            (Oh, and to be honest, I was not correcting you! I thought you were honoring the profession, which I understand – as we are a nation of Laws – and I was only posting a quip deriding the profession for conversation sake. You know, like “Q: What do you call a Hundred dead Lawyers in a pool? A: A Damn Good Start!!!”)

          • Brokeeper

            Haha! Thanks for your encouraging words. I enjoy
            your comments that are contributing much to this blog.

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          After Rossi beat the dishes with Industrial heat technology, many engineers retrained into lawyer

    • Brokeeper

      This is the remote possibility I was thinking of by disrupting the E-cat sales in the US. But once customers in the European community start operating their plants, the attempts to slow production in US will lay PR consequences upon IH’s head.

  • Andy Kumar

    Rossi is so inscrutable. Why did he agree to the delay. Let us try reductio-ad-absurdum line of reasoning.
    .
    1. Rossi has something, he does not know exactly how good it will be. It is a work in progress.
    2. He prices it at $100 million.
    3. The end result is magnificent beyond his dreams, 350/400 days, COP 60. Four compact modules, highly portable.
    4. Customer is “blinded by the magnificent light”, refuses to buy in, for $89 million, market rights over half the world.
    5. A fair evaluation for the IP will be north of 100s of billion (with a B).
    .
    Now we come to the “absurdum” part. Why insist on getting paid $89M and tie up your plans in legal battles, why not cash in on 100s of billion and instant fame. Can someone tell me why it is not absurd. Am I missing something.

    • DrD

      I think it was because IH had the sole license for half the world and were refusing to go ahead with manufacturing and sales.
      They probably never intended to or at the very least decided early on to change direction and lock up or divert the IP. I think it never was about the $89M.
      As for allowing the delay, he has no choice other than backing down in which case he loses the right to sell in half the world.
      As he just said to Frank, he is now going ahead manufactuting in the US. What will happen to that is any ones guess.

      • MasterBlaster7

        This is exactly how conspiracy theories start. But, you may be right.

    • Mark Underwood

      My feeling is that the court case is hardly tying up Rossi’s plans; he is still able to develop the Quark and get business rolling at least in Europe. I think in part Rossi’s suit against IH has to do with his competitive nature ; he feels IH is taking advantage of him and he will have none of it. But in the larger and more strategic picture, he wants to undo the relationship with IH and revoke their rights to using his IP in the geographically specific Licensing agreement. I think he will succeed. I predict the court will decide to revoke any rights of IH to Rossi’s IP. After all the relationship is no longer friendly, and clearly IH doesn’t seem to believe in the efficacy of Rossi’s IP anyway. However IH will not have to pay the $89M. Some victory to both sides.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Just a little addition…” I think in part Rossi’s suit against IH has to do with his competitive nature”….yes Rossi’s competitive nature but I think Rossi has grown a thick skin and very savvy having tangle with the BS of the Italian mafia. I think this move is propelled by learning from bitter business experience.

        • Brokeeper

          Yes, mega strength through fire and pressure – a diamond in the rough.

        • peacelovewoodstock

          Agreed, never, never underestimate the fortitude and determination of anyone who has run a marathon.

          • wpj

            Or for 24h

    • Gittyup

      “Now we come to the “absurdum” part. Why insist on getting paid $89M and
      tie up your plans in legal battles, why not cash in on 100s of billion
      and instant fame. Can someone tell me why it is not absurd. Am I missing
      something.”

      I think the situation is different then you present it. I don’t think Rossi is demanding the $89M. I think he is trying to use the failure to pay to cancel the license agreement. The problem is IH doesn’t want to cancel the agreement and IH is also saying they don’t owe the $89M because the ERV wasn’t “substantiated”. Also IH has been sharing the IP with other partners and probably will continue to share the IP and invest in other LENR companies.

      Therefore Rossi doesn’t have a choice but to sue for the $89M and to determine if the contract is cancelled. By suing IH for the license and IP he is also protecting IH from further sharing of the IP until the suit gets settled. (Well at least IH would be wise to immediately stop sharing the IP because damages could get even larger should they lose.) Also any potential partners would stay away from IH and their potential “dirty” IP as they wouldn’t want to invest in anything based on that IP should the IP end up belonging to Rossi.

    • Omega Z

      ->”why not cash in on 100s of billion”

      Never been in business, Huh…

  • Barbierir

    If half of what Dewey claimed is true we will see criminal charges against Rossi long before the trial. Now Dewey has gone silent and I got the strong feeling that no such charges will ever materialize. I also feel that IH will never release the report that is allegedly so damning for Rossi.

    • US_Citizen71

      I would be more worried about Darden going to jail for securities fraud.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Nah. I think this is ‘eventually’ going to be ruled a simple breach of contract. Darden wont have to pay the 89 million. Rossi will keep the 10 million…and get all of his licencing and distribution rights back.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I simply disagree, if IH can attack LENR credibility it can delay implementation, which is their goal.

    • roseland67

      Then give an Ecat to NASA, the overwhelming majority of people in The world would believe NASA and the overwhelming majority of the world have never even heard of IH, Darden, Cherokee etc.
      What IH says is worth less than 2 dead flies, NASA proves it either works as stated or it doesn’t,
      I believe this is what Rossi is worried about

      • Brokeeper

        Who is to say they haven’t either directly or via the DOD? What do you think NDA means?

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Right or wrong, Rossi looks at NASA as a competitor and for him would be like giving his undeveloped invention to GE for testing. He has also stated he believes strongly that free enterprise in the private sector is the best way to introduce LENR into the economy, unencumbered by government bureaucracy and lobbyists. I tend to agree with him after seeing how lobbyists can twist our elected government into knots to only benefit lobbyist clients.

      • HS61AF91

        NASA’s been making a lot of amazing discoveries lately. (deep oceans on Mars, lights within an large asteroid, millions of earth-like planets, etc.) Maybe LENR practicality is coming up as another one soon. Depends on unknown, but possible reasons, too vague to speculate on what the reasons are.

  • GiveADogABone

    The best and most credible witness by far is the 1MW plant itself. It is sitting there refuelled and ready to go, except for an evaporator[1:] as a load. The court should order it to be restarted with proper supervision and procedures. A few weeks of operation will soon show who is telling the truth and there is now plenty of time for that.

    [1:] http://www.matthey.com/sustainability/in-action/archive/2012_13_case_studies/reducing_the_use_of_critical_raw_materials
    ‘Steam from the boiler is used to concentrate the byproduct liquors’

    • wpj

      It’s the “multiple boil” products where the cost of these goes up considerably.

      At least by Sept 2017, the next reactors (assuming there are some) should have been operating for about a year at the client’s facility which could, potentially, be added as further proof (assuming that it does work). Also, they could ship the jury out there to see it in operation (or at least video it).

  • GiveADogABone

    The best and most credible witness by far is the 1MW plant itself. It is sitting there refuelled and ready to go, except for an evaporator[1:] as a load. The court should order it to be restarted with proper supervision and procedures. A few weeks of operation will soon show who is telling the truth and there is now plenty of time for that.

    [1:] http://www.matthey.com/sustainability/in-action/archive/2012_13_case_studies/reducing_the_use_of_critical_raw_materials
    ‘Steam from the boiler is used to concentrate the byproduct liquors’

    • wpj

      It’s the “multiple boil” products where the cost of these goes up considerably.

      At least by Sept 2017, the next reactors (assuming there are some) should have been operating for about a year at the client’s facility which could, potentially, be added as further proof (assuming that it does work). Also, they could ship the jury out there to see it in operation (or at least video it).

  • DrD

    Yes but what about the Jury though.

    • HS61AF91

      If the jury is ordinary folk, they’ll wind up saying screw the lawyers and find for Rossi. The more complex, the sooner! That’s my optimistic feeling of what will happen.

  • DrD

    That would be the best evidence the Jury could ask for but — sigh — will there be many with this hanging over half the world.

    • Omega Z

      It would only take 1 confirmed happy customer outside the original IH market.

  • DrD

    At least we now know that it isn’t simply a case of the Jury agreeing
    that the payment was contractually due once the agreed (jointly by both
    parties) ERV report is positive (amount depending on the COP).
    I think there was that thought being debated earlier but in reality It never was going to be so simple.
    What a mess!

  • Fedir Mykhaylov

    The success or failure of products Rossi issued on the market has no relation to litigation between Leonardo and Industrial heat

  • Chapman

    You are correct! Even the two week estimate came from the joint submission, good catch!

    My brain fixated on the nature and source of item B, and I then just filed the 10 day estimate as a calendar issue (my brain was still chewing on “B” and choked on “D”!), but this just reinforces the point of my post – which was that the statements quoted came from the parties themselves, not the Judge. I was making the observation that the references to scientific complexity and expert engineering analysis were not in any way a reflection of the opinions or intentions of the Judge.

    • MasterBlaster7

      Oh, silly me. I thought I read this article a day or 2 ago. Just saw that Rossi said the court case would have zero effect on commercialization…presumably in Europe.

      I guess the only question is…can he put together a factory for 10 million (if he can use that 10 million due to the court case) or is he going to need new outside investment.

      • Roland

        Though the involvement of ABB is inferential, at this point in time, ABB spends $1.5 billion a year on R&D and has an entire division dedicated to fostering and integrating smaller enterprises with relevant technologies into the corporation’s quest to maintain technical dominance across its various divisions.

        The assumption that Leonardo will restrict its efforts to Europe is directly contradicted by all the statements made to the courts and Leonardo/Rossi’s very public stance that the licenses previously granted to IH are null and void and that interested parties in those previous license areas should now directly contact Leonardo.

        Further, there is little or no reason to assume that the only financing to flow into Leonardo since 2012 has come from the $11.5 million provided by IH and that the total budget to commercialize and manufacture E-cats is, thereby, less than $10 million.

        As Engineer 48’s experience demonstrates, there are large commercial entities paying attention to the development of Rossi’s technologies and they are cognizant of the potential impacts on their enterprises.

        If IH committed to invest $100 million on the basis of the state of the E-cat in 2012 why should we assume that there is a lack of potential suitors given the apparent advances since then; if anything we could more readily envision a lineup waiting to pass the DD phase so that they can actively participate in the eminent restructuring of a $100 trillion business.

  • Brokeeper

    My optimism is calculated optimism. Optimism and reality are not necessary mutually exclusive. I share Andrea Rossi’s realistic viewpoint and LookMoo’s logic below. I know of only one remote chance that a wrench could be thrown in the works within the year.

  • Mark Underwood

    My feeling is that the court case is hardly tying up Rossi’s plans; he is still able to develop the Quark and get business rolling at least in Europe. I think in part Rossi’s suit against IH has to do with his competitive nature ; he feels IH is taking advantage of him and he will have none of it. But in the larger and more strategic picture, he wants to undo the relationship with IH and revoke their rights to using his IP in the geographically specific Licensing agreement. I think he will succeed. I predict the court will decide to revoke any rights of IH to Rossi’s IP. After all the relationship is no longer friendly, and clearly IH doesn’t seem to believe in the efficacy of Rossi’s IP anyway. However IH will not have to pay the $89M. Some victory to both sides.

    • MasterBlaster7

      Just a little addition…” I think in part Rossi’s suit against IH has to do with his competitive nature”….yes Rossi’s competitive nature but I think Rossi has grown a thick skin and very savvy having tangle with the BS of the Italian mafia. I think this move is propelled by learning from bitter business experience.

      • Brokeeper

        Yes, mega strength through fire and pressure – a diamond in the rough.

      • peacelovewoodstock

        Agreed, never, never underestimate the fortitude and determination of anyone who has run a marathon.

        • wpj

          Or for 24h

  • bachcole

    The lawsuit is irrelevant now. I believe that Rossi will embarrass the living day lights out of all opposition by September 17, 2017. Or at least I hope so.

    • Chapman

      Jeez!!! How do you do it? I need 12 paragraphs to describe how to draw a circle, but you have a gift of achieving maximum clarity with a minimum character count!

      God did not see fit to bless me with your IQ, or your facial hair – and I am ok with that – but I admit to being envious of your “verbal brevity”…

  • Frechette

    Wouldn’t surprise me if IH brings in Mary Yugo as their star witness for their defense. LOL

  • MasterBlaster7

    A “deadline” is a statement that tells me that people don’t know shit about the law in here haha.

    Seriously, Frank, could you do an interview with a lawyer who is familiar with cases like these….just to get an ‘opinioned’ timetable on how he/she thinks this would unfold? I remember reading a lawyers prognostication at the beginning of this suit and it helped, alot, to put things into perspective.

  • WaltC

    It seems to me that the 1st and biggest hurdle that Rossi will have to cross in a trial is “is LENR even a real thing?”. There would be a long list of “experts” who will say it isn’t– Wikipedia, Mainstream Science Journals (and scientists), Jed R., etc. Wikipedia, for instance, pretty much does a hit job on everything LENR (P&F, cold fusion, E-cat, LENR). The discussions always seem to devolve into some overly complex debate on the “quality of steam” or something similar.

    Rossi has never been very interested in proving the science, presumably because it would help his competitors more than him; but maybe this is a case where he would find that worthwhile. If he could make a quark-X gadget that was battery powered (look Ma, no wires!), produced more (or as much) power as it consumed, and also produced light & heat, that might convince even the most battle-hardened skeptics.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Walt,

      IH needs to prove to the jury that the ERV’s reported COP > 50 was actually 2.6 or less.

      Nothing else matters for that complaint.

      Also remember that back in 2013 IH paid Rossi $10m based on the ERV data for a 24 hour test showing a COP of 6 or greater for one of the individual small modular reactors.

      • WaltC

        Engineer,
        I hope you’re right in that. My expectation is that they bring in dozens of Mainstream Science experts who say that COP > 1 is impossible without lethal side-effects, then throw up enough quality-of-steam evidence to make everyone’s eyes glaze over & when it’s all done, the jury will be convinced that COP>2.6 isn’t remotely possible.

        Some nice, indisputable proof would be handy– like a publicly acknowledged product, or an indisputable gadget of some kind.

        • roseland67

          If I was in the legal team, that’s what I would do.
          Parade a boatload of engineers and physicists from across industry & academia spewing engineering facts and figures that no one on the jury had a hope of understanding.

      • GiveADogABone

        1: It is not possible to unknowingly run the E-cat with the water out of the gauge glass for multiple reasons.
        2: The superheated steam produced requires 2265kJ/kg for evaporation.
        3: Condensate production records from the production plant will produce evidence of the water flow rate in the 1MW E-cat. This number is believed to be at the 36m^3 per day level.
        4: The maximum capacity of the electrical supply is believed to be about the 300kW level.

        A simple calculation provides the minimum possible CoP and the number is at about the three level. Authorative numbers for the condensate flow rate and max elec supply are needed but these two numbers can provide a simple proof that is independent of the ERV report. If the ERV report states CoP>50 and the simple proof states CoP>3, then IH have a double problem with claiming CoP<2.6.

        IH have yet another problem in proving CoP<2.6. They have to construct a dataset that is totally consistent with reality. If the ERV report is consistent with reality, then the chances of constructing a false but consistent dataset based on CoP6 from a 24 hour test is in the public domain.

        If recently ordered E-cats start running in the timescales of the court, possibly at the factory of the production plant owner, that is yet another source of proof.

        I make that six separate ways to get a view of the possible, probable and actual CoPs. What evidence could IH produce to refute that lot? The only hint so far is that footnote in the MTD.

    • Brokeeper

      A 100W unplugged lightbulb lit 24/7 laying on a guarded courts table. ๐Ÿ™‚

    • peacelovewoodstock

      I don’t think Rossi will have to prove that LENR is “real”, he only needs to prove that he satisfied the terms of his agreement with IH. The agreement by IH basically said “we’ll pay you $89M if this EVR that we have agreed on reports that the eCat met the requirements of the test”. It seems clear that the EVR did report exactly that.

      IH’s primary argument is that the agreement was invalid (which argument is very, very weak and not likely to succeed IMHO).

      Their only possible defense I think is to “prove” that the EVR (that they approved) provided false information in the report, knowingly or otherwise.

      That could get into a lot of technical hair-splitting, but it would presumably be over the accuracy of instrumentation and measurements, and the accuracy with which information was recorded, and how it was analyzed and presented.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Well. If the ERV isn’t taken on face…Rossi might have to demonstrate the e-cat outputting 4-5 COP…or whatever the original contract for 89 million said. Ipso Facto proving LENR is real…with legal weight.

        • Engineer48

          HI MB,

          Rossi need to prove nothing.

          IH need to prove the ERV report was in error AND that the real COP was 2.6 or below.

          The $89m payment is a simple contract dispute and nothing more. Of course there are many other issues in the Rossi complaint.

        • Engineer48

          Hi MB,

          The ERV is a certified engineer for doing such work. IH agreed to use him twice and agreed to his report for the 1st 24 hour test that the COP was 6 or greater.

          Rossi will not need to prove anything. It is IH that needs to prove the ERV reported COP > 50 is not accurate.

          • Chapman

            I have decided to stop even trying to argue those points any further. Those who were inclined to seek and understand the truth did so relatively quickly, while anyone who continues to “misunderstand” these facts are obviously doing so intentionally.

            I would much prefer to have more discussions about your emergency power unit, your intended LENR experiments, and your thoughts on Mills Hydrino theories…

          • Roland

            There is a significant contribution we can all make to the RSDR initiative; aside from the integration of the reactors into the physical systems, the plant itself represents the integration of off the shelf technologies into a unique but not particularly challenging architecture.

            In the broader context of shepherding villages successfully onto a higher plane of functionality, with a transformative technological ‘seed crystal’, a host of cultural, political, economic, educational, judicial and security issues require attention.

            My sense is, going forward, that this community has the potential to have a helpful role in shaping the social covenants that will allow a village-centric technology to flourish and genuinely uplift the poorest of the poor.

            We are presently approaching a historic moment; soon the most completely modern device on the planet will be the perfect centre for the most humble of villages.

            Might even make George happy in the process; he could personally buy one and donate it to needy third worlders.

          • psi2u2

            Very good summary.

          • Chapman

            I was disappointed when I saw how much hostility was displayed by some to Engineer’s proposal over in the thread dedicated to the topic, down to childish criticisms about the labeling of the power lines in the diagram! What is wrong with some people???

            I love what Engineer is attempting. For now, we can just put a blank box in the diagram for the LENR Reactor, and worry – as you pointed out – with sorting through the currently available devices and tech that can be integrated to provide a centralized “Engineering/Life Support” module for WHATEVER application an end user may decide to put it to.

          • Roland

            Civilization in a box from a sub- Saharan village to the Oort Cloud.

          • MasterBlaster7

            Well. If the ERV’s credibility is not attacked and stands as an expert witness…that is a good thing….it would save a LOT of time.

    • Roland

      What part of a complete record, documented in every detail, (including every scrap of data from all the instruments) a complete multi-camera video record, depositions from direct participants with professional certifications on the line and a binding report by a thoroughly competent independent party agreed to, and half paid for, by IH don’t you get?

      The suit has been filed, it is now moving forward and will now be tried before a jury whom will decide whether the concrete provisions of a commercial contract have been adhered to; nothing outside the purposefully limited scope of any and every contract can be argued, for or against, because, quite simply, the judge will not allow it by sustaining objections to every line of questioning, and attempt to enter into evidence, matters that threaten to introduce issues external and irrelevant to the concrete contractual language.

      That Leonardo is not seeking an outcome that requires the jury to direct that IH pay Leonardo $89 million (damages might be another matter entirely) vastly simplifies the presentation to the jury.

      Three re-engineered second generation 1megW steam plants, that are direct descendants from the plant at issue in the trial, are expected to be operational in the time frame before the trial begins; I think we can safely assume that a sincere effort will be made, by Leonardo, to accomplish this as planned, and then find a way to introduce that fact into evidence.

  • MasterBlaster7

    Oh, that is great news. Do you have a source on…”well Rossi claims that he will have his e-cats for sale before that date”…I would be interested to read that.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Walt,

    IH needs to prove to the jury that the ERV’s reported COP > 50 was actually 2.6 or less.

    Nothing else matters for that complaint.

    Also remember that back in 2013 IH paid Rossi $10m based on the ERV data for a 24 hour test showing a COP of 6 or greater for one of the individual small modular reactors.

    • GiveADogABone

      1: It is not possible to unknowingly run the E-cat with the water out of the gauge glass for multiple reasons.
      2: The superheated steam produced requires 2265kJ/kg for evaporation.
      3: Condensate production records from the production plant will produce evidence of the water flow rate in the 1MW E-cat. This number is believed to be at the 36m^3 per day level.
      4: The maximum capacity of the electrical supply is believed to be about the 300kW level.

      A simple calculation provides the minimum possible CoP and the number is at about the three level. Authorative numbers for the condensate flow rate and max elec supply are needed but these two numbers can provide a simple proof that is independent of the ERV report. If the ERV report states CoP>50 and the simple proof states CoP>3, then IH have a double problem with claiming CoP<2.6.

      IH have yet another problem in proving CoP<2.6. They have to construct a dataset that is totally consistent with reality. If the ERV report is consistent with reality, then the chances of constructing a false but consistent dataset based on CoP6 from a 24 test is in the public domain.

      If recently ordered E-cats start running in the timescales of the court, possibly at the factory of the production plant owner, that is yet another source of proof.

      I make that six separate ways to get a view of the possible, probable and actual CoPs. What evidence could IH produce to refute that lot? The only hint so far is that footnote in the MTD.

  • Brokeeper

    A 100W unplugged lightbulb lit 24/7 laying on a guarded courts table. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • peacelovewoodstock

    I don’t think Rossi will have to prove that LENR is “real”, he only needs to prove that he satisfied the terms of his agreement with IH. The agreement by IH basically said “we’ll pay you $89M if this EVR that we have agreed on reports that the eCat met the requirements of the test”. It seems clear that the EVR did report exactly that.

    IH’s primary argument is that the agreement was invalid (which argument is very, very weak and not likely to succeed IMHO).

    Their only possible defense I think is to “prove” that the EVR (that they approved) provided false information in the report, knowingly or otherwise.

    That could get into a lot of technical hair-splitting, but it would presumably be over the accuracy of instrumentation and measurements, and the accuracy with which information was recorded, and how it was analyzed and presented.

    • MasterBlaster7

      Well. If the ERV isn’t taken on face…Rossi might have to demonstrate the e-cat outputting 4-5 COP…or whatever the original contract for 89 million said. Ipso Facto proving LENR is real…with legal weight.

      • Engineer48

        HI MB,

        Rossi need to prove nothing.

        IH need to prove the ERV report was in error AND that the real COP was 2.6 or below.

        The $89m payment is a simple contract dispute and nothing more. Of course there are many other issues in the Rossi complaint.

      • Engineer48

        Hi MB,

        The ERV is a certified engineer for doing such work. IH agreed to use him twice and agreed to his report for the 1st 24 hour test that the COP was 6 or greater.

        Rossi will not need to prove anything. It is IH that needs to prove the ERV reported COP > 50 is not accurate.

        • MasterBlaster7

          Well. If the ERV’s credibility is not attacked and stands as an expert witness…that is a good thing….it would save a LOT of time.

  • MasterBlaster7

    Oh, silly me. I thought I read this article a day or 2 ago. Just saw that Rossi said the court case would have zero effect on commercialization…presumably in Europe.

    I guess the only question is…can he put together a factory for 10 million (if he can use that 10 million due to the court case) or is he going to need new outside investment.

    • Roland

      Though the involvement of ABB is inferential, at this point in time, ABB spends $1.5 billion a year on R&D and has an entire division dedicated to fostering and integrating smaller enterprises with relevant technologies into the corporation’s quest to maintain technical dominance across its various divisions.

      The assumption that Leonardo will restrict its efforts to Europe is directly contradicted by all the statements made to the courts and Leonardo/Rossi’s very public stance that the licenses previously granted to IH are null and void and that interested parties in those previous license areas should now directly contact Leonardo.

      Further, there is little or no reason to assume that the only financing to flow into Leonardo since 2012 has come from the $11.5 million provided by IH and that the total budget to commercialize and manufacture E-cats is, thereby, less than $10 million.

      As Engineer 48’s experience demonstrates, there are large commercial entities paying attention to the development of Rossi’s technologies and they are cognizant of the potential impacts on their enterprises.

      If IH committed to invest $100 million on the basis of the state of the E-cat in 2012 why should we assume that there is a lack of potential suitors given the apparent advances since then; if anything we could more readily envision a lineup waiting to pass the DD phase so that they can actively participate in the eminent restructuring of a $100 trillion business.

      • roseland67

        And yet, there are none?

        • Roland

          So far there appears to be at least one; and, in light of what Engineer48 has volunteered from his direct experience, Rossi obviously does not discuss, or even hint at, all that is transpiring at any given moment.

          At this juncture entities operating in the spheres effected by the advent of functional LENR, which is ubiquitous in it’s development at this point, are paying attention if for no other reason than to track what their competitors are looking into.

          The upcoming hearings into the security implications of functional LENR will serve to focus even more attention on this space regardless of the ongoing efforts to present LENR in an unflattering light by some parties whose oxen are about to be gored.

          • MasterBlaster7

            It seems you speak with some authority on the situation. What is your background and connection to LENR and Rossi Roland?

            Also, I hope what you are saying is true, that there are extrinsic forces pushing Rossi on to industrialization and commercial product. Bitter experience has taught me that this is the point that the delays and platitudes start. I sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.

            If you are right, I hope to here a lot more about industrialization and commercialization in the near future and less about the trial.

  • PappyYokum

    The launch of Pappy’s Atomic Fried Chicken empire is being delayed. I need LENR powered deep friers.
    Didn’t Rossi say the Florida customer had ordered three more plants back in March with a delivery date of September? I have not heard any more about that. Has anyone else?

  • ScienceFan

    I may get flak for this, but I think the trial is the best thing that could happen to the E-Cat, Rossi AND Industrial Heat. Let me explain.
    For Rossi (assuming everything we keep hearing is right):
    1) It is something that media outlets can latch onto, and the E-Cat gains much-needed publicity.
    2) He only has to prove that it works within the contractually required parameters (COP 6+), which in and of itself would prove that LENR is not only real, but works.
    3) He gets to absolutely humiliate IH as the patent trolls and tech-thieves they are.
    4) When Rossi comes out of court and everything he keeps saying is proven correct, he will be more than ready for mass-production and commercialization, and (hopefully) blow all the other potential (non-IH) competition out of the water who were waiting for the trial results before taking LENR seriously.

    For IH:
    1) They raise awareness of the other LENR techs that they do still have control of, which can potentially compete with the E-Cat.
    2) They already have marketing and production going of other LENR products, which may get to mass-production before the E-Cat can. (They have, after all, been gathering energy techs almost as long as Rossi has been working on the E-Cat’s. If the LENR effects are real, there would be other real ones they’ve bought up)
    3) They get to (try to) slow Rossi down as they get their own products to market.
    4) They have a slim chance of winning if they continue fighting Rossi in the trial, and then they would have control of the most promising LENR tech to come around so far.
    5) They can use the $89 mil owed to Rossi in #’s 1 – 4.

    • kenko1

      #3. Slow down what? You can’t slow down nothing. Quick….name an e-cat, hot-cat or quark-x installation.

    • Axil Axil

      It is COP = 4 not 6

  • ScienceFan

    I may get flak for this, but I think the trial is the best thing that could happen to the E-Cat, Rossi AND Industrial Heat. Let me explain.
    For Rossi (assuming everything we keep hearing is right):
    1) It is something that media outlets can latch onto, and the E-Cat gains much-needed publicity.
    2) He only has to prove that it works within the contractually required parameters (COP 6+), which in and of itself would prove that LENR is not only real, but works.
    3) He gets to absolutely humiliate IH as the patent trolls and tech-thieves they are.
    4) When Rossi comes out of court and everything he keeps saying is proven correct, he will be more than ready for mass-production and commercialization, and (hopefully) blow all the other potential (non-IH) competition out of the water who were waiting for the trial results before taking LENR seriously.

    For IH:
    1) They raise awareness of the other LENR techs that they do still have control of, which can potentially compete with the E-Cat.
    2) They already have marketing and production going of other LENR products, which may get to mass-production before the E-Cat can. (They have, after all, been gathering energy techs almost as long as Rossi has been working on the E-Cat’s. If the LENR effects are real, there would be other real ones they’ve bought up)
    3) They get to (try to) slow Rossi down as they get their own products to market.
    4) They have a slim chance of winning if they continue fighting Rossi in the trial, and then they would have control of the most promising LENR tech to come around so far.
    5) They can use the $89 mil owed to Rossi in #’s 1 – 4.

    • kenko1

      #3. Slow down what? You can’t slow down nothing. Quick….name an e-cat, hot-cat or quark-x installation.

      • roseland67

        Kenko1

        Ever see the picture of the the guy with his eyes closed, hands over his ears and screaming “nah nah nah nah”?

        • kenko1

          no. But I’ve seen three monkeys……..
          I’m beginning to think, after all these years, that IF it’s TGTBT, it probably isn’t true. Yawn….’rolls over’… snort….belch….gasp….yaWn……..

          • psi2u2

            Go back to sleep and leave the rest of us alone.

    • Axil Axil

      It is COP = 4 not 6

    • INVENTOR INVENTED

      I heard they bought George Miley’s LENR patent. Are they manufacturing that, or planning to?

  • Engineer48

    It would seem Jed claims he is talking with IH lawyers and they are offering him their opinions:

    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg110812.html

    I wouldn’t know about that. Lawyers tell me the QuarkX is covered. Anyway,
    that is not relevant to the lawsuit, and it is not relevant to whether the
    one year test worked or not.

  • Engineer48

    It would seem Jed claims he is talking with IH lawyers and they are offering him their opinions:

    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg110812.html

    I wouldn’t know about that. Lawyers tell me the QuarkX is covered. Anyway,
    that is not relevant to the lawsuit, and it is not relevant to whether the
    one year test worked or not.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Good luck with the 2017 “deadline”. The attorney name of the game is billable hours, delay, delay, billable hours, delay, delay, billable hours.

  • Kevmo

    IH is no longer paying for a FUD campaign? When did they stop? When did they start? What evidence do you have for this double assertion?

  • Roland

    So far there appears to be at least one; and, in light of what Engineer48 has volunteered from his direct experience, Rossi obviously does not discuss, or even hint at, all that is transpiring at any given moment.

    At this juncture entities operating in the spheres effected by the advent of functional LENR, which is ubiquitous in it’s development at this point, are paying attention if for no other reason than to track what their competitors are looking into.

    The upcoming hearings into the security implications of functional LENR will serve to focus even more attention on this space regardless of the ongoing efforts to present LENR in an unflattering light by some parties whose oxen are about to be gored.

    • MasterBlaster7

      It seems you speak with some authority on the situation. What is your background and connection to LENR and Rossi Roland?

      Also, I hope what you are saying is true, that there are extrinsic forces pushing Rossi on to industrialization and commercial product. Bitter experience has taught me that this is the point that the delays and platitudes start. I sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.

      If you are right, I hope to here a lot more about industrialization and commercialization in the near future and less about the trial.

  • kenko1

    no. But I’ve seen three monkeys……..
    I’m beginning to think, after all these years, that IF it’s TGTBT, it probably isn’t true. Yawn….’rolls over’… snort….belch….gasp….yaWn……..

    • psi2u2

      Go back to sleep and leave the rest of us alone.

  • Roland

    What part of a complete record, documented in every detail, (including every scrap of data from all the instruments) a complete multi-camera video record, depositions from direct participants with professional certifications on the line and a binding report by a thoroughly competent independent party agreed to, and half paid for, by IH don’t you get?

    The suit has been filed, it is now moving forward and will now be tried before a jury whom will decide whether the concrete provisions of a commercial contract have been adhered to; nothing outside the purposefully limited scope of any and every contract can be argued, for or against, because, quite simply, the judge will not allow it by sustaining objections to every line of questioning, and attempt to enter into evidence, matters that threaten to introduce issues external and irrelevant to the concrete contractual language.

    That Leonardo is not seeking an outcome that requires the jury to direct that IH pay Leonardo $89 million (damages might be another matter entirely) vastly simplifies the presentation to the jury.

    Three re-engineered second generation 1megW steam plants, that are direct descendants from the plant at issue in the trial, are expected to be operational in the time frame before the trial begins; I think we can safely assume that a sincere effort will be made, by Leonardo, to accomplish this as planned, and then find a way to introduce that fact into evidence.

  • Job001

    It is exceptionally common for deep pocket old technology investors to “pay for delay” or military interests to create huge amounts of FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) when a new technology has military application. For this LENR test either could be the case, yet the vast FUD screen and potential for military use gives military the slight nod, IMO.

    Other blog explanations centered on IP and test results ignore the big money of FF and military interests as if not involved. IH also seemed to do a fast reversal from prior interests(Brown site remediation research) with no transparent explaination.

    Given past extreme obstruction of CF/LENR research since 1989 by big money invested in FF, military or energy research, It is exceptionally unlikely that big money interests are not involved behind the scenes now in this IP obstruction/fight.

    Follow the big money.

    • Roland

      Ta da.

      Sometimes circles of interest overlap for decades; I expect, over time, that this will be revealed as a significant strategic weakness here, especially as the tide turns.

      On another note, the ‘social scientists’ busy shaping opinion on the matter have overlooked the possibility that a group of smart, capable people might find common cause in a very robust response to the tactics that have always worked, ever so well, on the ‘less educated’.

      Funny how the whole judo thing works…

      • Mats002

        Hi Roland, are you saying that ‘Planet Rossi’, about 1000 people here and in other LENR Forums, are the ‘very robust response’ to the PTB:s FUD agenda?

        • psi2u2

          I would conjecture that posts to these forums have had a material consequence in the discussion and therefore, probably, the legal strategies of both sides.

          • Roland

            I would conjecture that the impact of the discussions on this forum are significantly wider than the effects on the legal maneuvers between Leonardo and IH et al and that a complete list of the readership, and their connections, would surprise many.

        • Roland

          Perhaps it’s just me but over the years I’ve been observing E-cat world there’s been a seismic shift in the tenor of the commentary and the quality of the initiatives undertaken by E-cat worlders.

          It’s a long reach from Mary Yugo to substantive discussions on LENR physics, the economic and geopolitical implications of advanced LENR designs and the launch of serious initiatives such as Engineer48’s Remote Areas & Disaster Response design.

          There has also been a significant shift in how the community responds to various APCO forays; the adults appear to be prevailing and the collective tolerance of deliberate obtuseness appears to be diminishing by the day.

          I can’t speak to the other LENR forums as I long ago arrived at the conclusion that this forum was, and is, the most interesting one. Cheers Frank.

          • bachcole

            I can’t speak to other LENR forums because I feel secure and loved and nurtured here and so I never venture elsewhere in LENR land.

  • Job001

    It is exceptionally common for deep pocket old technology investors to “pay for delay” or military interests to create huge amounts of FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) when a new technology has military application. For this LENR test either could be the case, yet the vast FUD screen and potential for military use gives military the slight nod, IMO.

    Other blog explanations centered on IP and test results ignore the big money of FF and military interests as if not involved. IH also seemed to do a fast reversal from prior interests(Brown site remediation research) with no transparent explaination.

    Given past extreme obstruction of CF/LENR research since 1989 by big money invested in FF, military or energy research, It is exceptionally unlikely that big money interests are not involved behind the scenes now in this IP obstruction/fight.

    Follow the big money.

    • Roland

      Ta da.

      Sometimes circles of interest overlap for decades; I expect, over time, that this will be revealed as a significant strategic weakness here, especially as the tide turns.

      On another note, the ‘social scientists’ busy shaping opinion on the matter have overlooked the possibility that a group of smart, capable people might find common cause in a very robust response to the tactics that have always worked, ever so well, on the ‘less educated’.

      Funny how the whole judo thing works…

      • Mats002

        Hi Roland, are you saying that ‘Planet Rossi’, about 1000 people here and in other LENR Forums, are the ‘very robust response’ to the PTB:s FUD agenda?

        • psi2u2

          I would conjecture that posts to these forums have had a material consequence in the discussion and therefore, probably, the legal strategies of both sides.

          • Roland

            I would conjecture that the impact of the discussions on this forum are significantly wider than the effects on the legal maneuvers between Leonardo and IH et al and that a complete list of the readership, and their connections, would surprise many.

        • Roland

          Perhaps it’s just me but over the years I’ve been observing E-cat world there’s been a seismic shift in the tenor of the commentary and the quality of the initiatives undertaken by E-cat worlders.

          It’s a long reach from Mary Yugo to substantive discussions on LENR physics, the economic and geopolitical implications of advanced LENR designs and the launch of serious initiatives such as Engineer48’s Remote Areas & Disaster Response design.

          There has also been a significant shift in how the community responds to various APCO forays; the adults appear to be prevailing and the collective tolerance of deliberate obtuseness appears to be diminishing by the day.

          I can’t speak to the other LENR forums as I long ago arrived at the conclusion that this forum was, and is, the most interesting one. Cheers Frank.

          • bachcole

            I can’t speak to other LENR forums because I feel secure and loved and nurtured here and so I never venture elsewhere in LENR land.

    • Andy Kumar

      Job001,
      Are you saying that the communists and the capitalists, the Americans and the Chinese, Anglophones and Francophones, all of a sudden have found common ground in suppression of LENR
      .
      Are you saying that money grubbers like IH will throw away trillion dollar opportunity that fell in its lap.
      .
      Are you saying that military will create FUD like a sissy. Have they forgotten their powers to commandeer anything that their heart desires like thy neighbor’s oil fields or sandy beaches.

      • Job001

        Not at all, no conspiracy required, study up on cognitive bias, a modern neurological science, and perhaps you’ll develop a friendly view of what I’ve blogged. Likewise, IH and most people/corporations are more understandable given the science of bias(such as funding bias).
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funding_bias
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

        • Andy Kumar

          So you are saying that this *diverse group* of people has the SAME bias. Wouldn’t it be easier and simpler to assume that this *one group* of LENR hopeful with “little education” may be wrong.
          .
          Remember when the earth was fixed, and ALL the stars just happened to rotate exactly at the same speed around the earth. To save one false assumption, you had to keep coming up with more and more ridiculous stuff.

          • Job001

            Not at all, ALL or nothing or SAME absolutist logic isn’t working well here. With humans and science statistics rule rather than error prone absolutist logic. Lawyers and politicians tend to use absolutist logic to promote their case. More often than not absolutist logic is used to promote the lie, the half lie, or the big lie. As a scientist I don’t recommend it.

          • Omega Z

            You do understand there is no correlation between education and intelligence. Right. We merely hope that the educated are actually good in their field of expertise. Even that is not a given.

          • bachcole

            The more that one exercises one’s intellect the better it is, irrespective of the accumulation of certain facts; just exactly like the more that one exercises one’s coordination in the form of gymnastics or dance the better one’s coordination in general becomes. The brain is plastic and in fact can change.

            Once a real, practised dancer came to our folk dancing group. She had never done folk dancing before. She jumped in with the group and executed the most difficult folk dance moves without hardly the slightest hesitation as though she had been with us for years.

            More importantly, intelligence as usually defined, recognized, and tested does not correlate with creativity or paradigm busting ( or seeing things in a new light). There is probably not a single medical doctor in the USA who is not more “intelligent” than I am; but the percentage of medical doctors who have been able to break out of their self-created reductionistic echo chamber and embrace health building and holistic healing is probably .1%. That would be well less than 1 percent.

          • bachcole

            You seem unaware of some of the highly educated people here at e-cat world dot com, starting with Pekka Janhunen, Engineer48, Greenyer, etc. etc. etc. You also equate nuclear education with education and intelligence. And worse, you equate being able to discern social cues with intelligence. At some point, the more “intelligent” a person is the less likely they are to discern social cues; we all know the super-intelligent geek who can’t dance, can’t talk to girls, can’t take a joke, can’t fit in, and is basically socially retarded. This kind of handicap would play a significant part in an inability to switch paradigms.

  • Roland

    There is a significant contribution we can all make to the RSDR initiative; aside from the integration of the reactors into the physical systems, the plant itself represents the integration of off the shelf technologies into a unique but not particularly challenging architecture.

    In the broader context of shepherding villages successfully onto a higher plane of functionality, with a transformative technological ‘seed crystal’, a host of cultural, political, economic, educational, judicial and security issues require attention.

    My sense is, going forward, that this community has the potential to have a helpful role in shaping the social covenants that will allow a village-centric technology to flourish and genuinely uplift the poorest of the poor.

    We are presently approaching a historic moment; soon the most completely modern device on the planet will be the perfect centre for the most humble of villages.

    Might even make George happy in the process; he could personally buy one and donate it to needy third worlders.

    • psi2u2

      Very good summary.

  • Fedir Mykhaylov

    Why absurd? In court, the discussion regarding the specific tests and pay a specific amount at a performance of the device (1 MW plant).

  • Engineer48

    Jed and many others here have made representations the IH Customer, JM Chemical Products was a company owned by Rossi.

    It would seem those individuals never read the last page of the Rossi complaint, attached, where the last sentence makes the reality crystal clear that the owner is a UK registered company. This document’s accuracy was sworn to in the court.

    So anyone making claims the IH Customer is in anyway associated with Rossi is based on nothing.

    Please read the last sentence and know the sworn reality.

    • Mats002

      E48, I give you the LENR hero song for that info:

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-msutN_OkU4

      • Engineer48

        Hi Mats002,

        When anti Rossi people say they are not interested in reading the contract nor complaint and then make statements that are clearly opposite to what was been sworn to in those documents, really says they think the people they are trying to deceive can’t read or are not aware of sworn statements.

        I call that willful distribution of knowingly false disinformation. Especially when that disinformation agent claims IH ERV data and lawyer advise access.

        • Chapman

          Engineer,

          I tried taking your advice and giving Jed the benefit of the doubt. I considered the possibility that he may be honestly misinformed, and passing on bad information simply due to the lack of any first-hand experience concerning Rossi’s tech. I thought that the best way to bring him “back to the fold”, so to speak, was to help get him an opportunity to actually experiment with a prototype!

          To that end, I recently submitted to Dr. Rossi via JONP my insight and humbly suggested he should prototype a “JED” model QuarkX Reactor test unit in suppository form to be delivered without delay. I took note of the fact that, even on the rare occasion anymore when Jed appears sober, he still seems weak on technical know-how, and recommended accordingly that Dr. Rossi take special care to include a clear set of instructions on the proper “Insertion Protocol” (complete with color diagrams) and an addendum outlining suggestions as to how, and where, connection might be made between the “nested” device and a convenient 3-phase power source.

          To date I have recieved no reply, but I will keep you posted should my benevolent endeavours bare fruit.

          It would be wonderful if I could somehow contribute to Jed’s rehabilitation. After all, it is better to educate, than to deride.

          “Blessed be the Peacemakers…”

    • Ged

      Additionally, this update to the docket on June 30 also says the same: “Certificate of Interested Parties/Corporate Disclosure Statement – NONE
      disclosed by Leonardo Corporation, Andrea Rossi (Annesser, John)”. So that settles that matter.

  • Engineer48

    Jed and many others here have made representations the IH Customer, JM Chemical Products was a company owned by Rossi.

    It would seem those individuals never read the last page of the Rossi complaint, attached, where the last sentence makes the reality crystal clear that the owner is a UK registered company. This document’s accuracy was sworn to in the court.

    So anyone making claims the IH Customer is in anyway associated with Rossi is based on nothing.

    Please read the last sentence and know the sworn reality.

    • Mats002

      E48, I give you the LENR hero song for that info:

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-msutN_OkU4

      • Engineer48

        Hi Mats002,

        When anti Rossi people say they are not interested in reading the contract nor complaint and then make statements that are clearly opposite to what was been sworn to in those documents, really says they think the people they are trying to deceive can’t read or are not aware of sworn statements.

        I call that willful distribution of knowingly false disinformation. Especially when that disinformation agent claims IH ERV data and lawyer advise access.

        • Chapman

          Engineer,

          I tried taking your advice and giving Jed the benefit of the doubt. I considered the possibility that he may be honestly misinformed, and passing on bad information simply due to the lack of any first-hand experience concerning Rossi’s tech. I thought that the best way to bring him “back to the fold”, so to speak, was to help get him an opportunity to actually experiment with a prototype!

          To that end, I recently submitted to Dr. Rossi via JONP my insight and humbly suggested he should prototype a “JED” model QuarkX Reactor test unit in suppository form to be delivered without delay. I took note of the fact that, even on the rare occasion anymore when Jed appears sober, he still seems weak on technical know-how, and recommended accordingly that Dr. Rossi take special care to include a clear set of instructions on the proper “Insertion Protocol” (complete with color diagrams) and an addendum outlining suggestions as to how, and where, connection might be made between the “nested” device and a convenient 3-phase power source.

          To date I have recieved no reply, but I will keep you posted should my benevolent endeavours bare fruit.

          It would be wonderful if I could somehow contribute to Jed’s rehabilitation. After all, it is better to educate, than to deride.

          “Blessed be the Peacemakers…”

    • Ged

      Additionally, this update to the docket on June 30 also says the same: “Certificate of Interested Parties/Corporate Disclosure Statement – NONE
      disclosed by Leonardo Corporation, Andrea Rossi (Annesser, John)”. So that settles that matter.

  • Brokeeper

    HA! That is conundrum.

  • Brokeeper

    Thanks Chapman. Changed it above.

  • Zavod

    This could be a ploy to generate advertising and buzz around the process.

  • Zavod

    This could be a ploy to generate advertising and buzz around the process.

  • Ged

    According to the current docket information, set yesterday, it looks like the trial might have been moved up to 6/27/2017?

    “Jury Trial set for period of 6/26/2017 in Miami Division before Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga. Calendar Call set for 6/20/2017 09:00 AM in Miami Division before Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga. Motions to amend pleadings or join parties due by 8/11/2016. All discovery due by 2/27/2017.”

  • Ged

    According to the current docket information, set yesterday, it looks like the trial might have been moved up to 6/26/2017?

    “Jury Trial set for period of 6/26/2017 in Miami Division before Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga. Calendar Call set for 6/20/2017 09:00 AM in Miami Division before Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga. Motions to amend pleadings or join parties due by 8/11/2016. All discovery due by 2/27/2017.”

    • Asterix

      In my own experience as technical consultant in a couple of civil multi-million dollar actions, the June, 2017 trial date is the most optimistic possible. It’s not a hard-and-fast drop-dead date.

      Expect delays to occur. In particular, pre-trial motions and discovery issues can stretch things out quite a bit. In particular, I’ve been surprised that, given the technical nature of the case, the phrase “special master” has not yet been uttered. I doubt that neither Judge Altonaga nor her magistrate have the necessary technical background to evaluate the subject matter.

  • Roland

    Civilization in a box from a sub- Saharan village to the Oort Cloud.

  • Job001

    Not at all, ALL or nothing or SAME absolutist logic isn’t working well here. With humans and science statistics rule rather than error prone absolutist logic. Lawyers and politicians tend to use absolutist logic to promote their case. More often than not absolutist logic is used to promote the lie, the half lie, or the big lie. As a scientist I don’t recommend it.

  • Kevmo

    ahhh, a standard non-answer answer

  • Omega Z

    You do understand there is no correlation between education and intelligence. Right. We merely hope that the educated are actually good in their field of expertise. Even that is not a given.