Data from MFMP Padua Cell Fuel/Ash Available (Bob Greenyer)

The following comment was posted by Bob Greenyer of the MFMP in another thread.

Padua cell fuel components tested with TOF-SIMS now alongside ash re-test

The independent researcher that previously did an initial test of the Padua Cell ash, has since been supplied with samples of the two Parkhomov fuel elements (Parkhomov’s exact LiAlH4 and Russian produced Nickel powder).
The testing party took on as much of the advice as possible given in the live document on our main but they were unable to sit the powder on Silicon substrate as the ion beam just moved the sample.

However, since each sample was on the same type of substrate any carbon based interference should net net out.
The raw data files are in the link.

No one at the MFMP has analysed this data yet – so any crowd graphing / analysis would be appreciated.

Bob Greenyer

  • gdaigle

    Chart for Nickel mass(u) from Ni.txt

    • Mats002

      Hi Gdagle, can you describe chart for a layman please? Where is the different isotopes of nickel here? What is the meaning of ‘channel’?

      • gdaigle

        Channel just appears to be the timecode for data collection as is described in the txt. The first image I posted just shows the mass ranges in blue, describing the full range of masses in play. Really, nothing interesting there as far as I know. The second breakdown of masses (I’m not sure which isotope is associated with each) is more interesting. Later I will do a comparison with the other data on Nickel ash, but I’m a bit pressed for time.

        • Mats002

          Let’s see if I get it right; Ni isotopes range from 58 to 64, in mass (u) it is exactly 57.9353462 to 63.9279679 according to this table:
          The Ni.txt data have mass (u) in a range from a little above 0 up to about 7.
          How is the range 0-7 correlated to the mass range of Ni isotopes?

          • Bob Greenyer

            it does if you pre-view it on a macintosh – but load it into a spreadsheet and you will see 0.5 – 200 AMU range – I had this moment this afternoon!

          • Mats002

            Yes, in my Excel on Windows, importing Ni.txt, mass (u) go from 0,499986 to 200,499198 and intensity says what is found at each mass, right?

            If I sort on intensity descending, then the highest intensities are for mass 57,918048 which would be Ni58. Correct?

          • Bob Greenyer


          • J Storrs Hall

            Best to use a table of the isotopes such as — the numbers on a periodic table are averages weighted by natural abundance. The masses in the data line up very nicely on integers, especially if you adjust the “al” series down by about 2% — probably a miscalibration.

          • Mats002

            I can add the Al on top of Ni and ash. should I do intensity*0,98 or mass*0,98 or something else?

  • gdaigle

    Here are the 3 largest intensities of nickel isotopes as per the Ni.txt data. There are 2 or 3 other smaller “bumps” that I have yet to analyze. Max mass for the first bump is 1.007391. Second bump is max intensity of 2.014595. Last bump (second largest) has a Max of 7.013758

  • Bob Greenyer

    From looking at the data – there seems to be quite a bit of separation going on… we know that this did happen and is visible in the fused ash ‘rod’ please see the photos (and download the full set) from here

    One party that has seen the raw data this afternoon thinks that it is interesting enough to offer us a full ICPMS of the fuel components and ash which, it is hoped, will be able to take place in the middle of August (assuming the samples can reach them in time).

  • Mats002

    This is Ni.txt in an excel diagram. Mass number is rounded to integers, then intensity is summed per distinct mass number (click/open/download for higher resolution):

    • Ged

      That is a nice looking graph, thank you.

  • Mats002

    Thanks Ged, you gave me courage to do fuel vs ash in the same manner:

  • J Storrs Hall

    Here’s the parts of interest at a glance…

  • J Storrs Hall

    The only element with a stable u=23 isotope is sodium.

    • Mats002

      In my chart U=23 is much higher in ash (red) than in Ni/fuel (blue).
      You did some compensation in your chart?

      • Bob Greenyer

        See my comment above.

  • gdaigle

    Here are the full results and charts:


    Max = 1.007391 u
    Intensity = 596

    Max = 2.014595 u
    Intensity = 45

    Max = 6.015095 u
    Intensity = 26

    Max = 7.013758 u
    Intensity = 229

    Nickel Ash

    Max = 1.007345 u
    Intensity = 78

    Max = 6.014136 u
    Intensity: 360

    Max = 7.01396 u
    Intensity: 2486

    Nickel to Nickel Ash

    Isotope about 1.0073
    from 596 to 78

    Isotope about 2.0146
    from 45 to negligible

    Isotope about 6.015
    from 26 to 360

    Isotope about 7.0138
    from 229 to 2486

  • Bob Greenyer

    Thanks guys for taking a serious look at the data!

    Ok, some points made by other people not in this discussion:

    1. There is still a problem with the Ni intensities in the ash samples. It is basically not there. Several samples would be helpful as they appear to be non-homogeneous (why no Ni is unclear but this may be an example of selective ionization in SIMS. Basically, alkali metal ions dominate SIMS spectra as they are most easily ionized and you have sodium (from somewhere)). Again, up to m/z 250 would be helpful.

    2. ICP-MS is now needed on these three samples at this time. You need a better indication of a homogenized sample by dissolution.

    3. The Li ratios are very interesting. If you have parts of the container, that would be helpful to see if the Li diffused into the alumina in varying rates depending on isotope.

    For me, Sodium presence is the most interesting immediate takeaway. According to my reaction tables, Sodium is bred from Nitrogen and Oxygen (present in Air, this reactor was loaded in air) and from Oxygen in the Al2O3 reactor tube (the Padua cell had no reactor sheath).

    Reactions 41 – 50, lines 529 – 543

    • J Storrs Hall

      I take it the “and {2b}” on the end of line 333 was intended to go on line 334?

      • Bob Greenyer

        Thankyou Mr hall, I appreciate you keen eye and diligence – I have referred back to Piantelli’s patent and made the appropriate correction.

        I do say on line 2 “NOTE: This spreadsheet is for comment only, It is subject to revision and may contain material errors”

        This is a good revision. Thanks again for your input

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Transition metals like nickel easily form tetrahedral complexes and there’s a lot of hydrogen in this reaction.

    Could there be an oxidative addition of hydrogen gas to nickel(0) followed by hydrides addition to make a charged tetrahedral nickel complexes?

    Ni(0) + H2 > NiH2

    NiH2 + 2H- > [NiH4]-2

    Or four hydride forming a complex with nickel(0)?

    Ni(0) + 4H- > [NiH4]-4

    Nickel-58 plus four hydrides would have a mass of 62.
    So, could the drift from 58 to 62 in the year test just be nickel-58 forming a complex with four hydrogens?

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Sorry, not this experiment but in the year long test.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Sorry, for the singular a plural mix-ups. I was too eager to get the thought down.

  • Bob Greenyer

    There is a chance that there could have been some contamination of the sample with sodium bearing alumina cement during the cell take-down that may have been used to stop the Kanthal coil from moving.

    We are investigating this.