Industrial Heat Amends Answer to Rossi's Complaint on Aug 11th (Update #2 — Rossi: "The Heat Was Used, Not Vented Away")

Thanks to Chapman for noticing that there are amended complaints and counterclaims in the court docket with new documents submitted yesterday, August 11 2016.

I have not downloaded or seen the files so far. But the list of documents can be seen here:

https://www.pacermonitor.com/case/11135976/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al

UPDATE: Someone sent me a file for a new exhibit (#26) which shows some photos that look like the interior of the Doral factory. Here’s a link: http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Doral.pdf

Here are a couple of new points in the amended answer:

82. Indeed, when Murray eventually gained access to the Plant in February 2016 and
examined the Plant, the methodology being used to operate the Plant, and the methodology being
used to measure those operations, he immediately recognized that those methodologies were
fatally flawed. Some of the flaws that he was quickly able to identify are explained in Exhibit 5. Murray also recognized that the building in which the Plant was located had no method to
ventilate the heat that would be produced by the Plant were it producing the amount of steam
claimed by Rossi, Leonardo, and Penon such that persons would not have been able to work in
the building if the Rossi/Leonardo/Penon claims were true. This conflicted with the claims of
individuals who had been in the building when the Plant was operating, all of whom claimed the
temperature in the building was near or not much greater than the outside temperature.
Photographs of the building ceiling from the inside are attached hereto as Exhibit 26.

83. Leonardo, Rossi, JMP, Johnson, USQL, Fabiani, and John Doe also restricted
access to the JMP area at the Doral location, claiming that there was a secretive manufacturing
process being conducted there, when in fact it was simply recycling steam from the Plant and
sending it back to the Plant as water.

UPDATE#2: I asked Rossi today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics about the photos and allegations from Industrial Heat that if 1MW was produced by the E-Cat plant, it would have been too hot inside the factory for anyone to have worked. Rossi responded:

Andrea Rossi
August 12, 2016 at 1:53 PM
Frank Acland:
1 The heat was used, not vented away from the Customer
2 There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.
Nevertheless I must confess that these amendments have remarkably improved the former countercomplaints, completing their cultural reach: before they were comic, now they are tragicomic.
Obviously we will respond in Court with due evidence.
Warm Regards
A.R.

When Rossi says “the heat was used”, it suggests that he means there was an endothermic manufacturing process, which some people have been discussing. From his response it sounds like that there were times when excess heat had to be vented out (apparently when the heat was not being used by the customer), but I don’t know what kind of ventilation system he is referring to here.

  • Finally something to chew on! We now have a much better idea of what was where.

    Looks like what some were calling a sky light aligns with the vent with the big exhaust plume on the roof.

    I’m gonna wait for Engineer48 to tell me what he sees.

    The black cable from the wall to the customer set up got my attention though. Electrical power, I presume.

    • Frank Acland

      It looks to me like these pictures were taken after the test was over, or maybe before it began, since the piping between the plant and the manufacturing unit is not visible. Compare with this http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/E-CatDoral.jpg

      • I had the same thought. But it’s also possible that the pipe is just obscured from view.

        A talented 3D modeler could probably put together a pretty close approximation of the entire building and the pieces in it with what we have now. That would answer it.

        • wpj

          “Obvious” on the other thread has been supplying information to Eng48’s speculation. A lot of photos of the inside, pre-Rossi, are on the LENR forum together with the speculation (possibly the same poster?).

          • Obvious

            Yep. Just click my name, and you will see. I have had that name for maybe a couple years. Grandfathered this name is. Disqus changed the name thing some time ago, but I never changed mine fully over.

    • wpj

      “Obvious” has said that there is an air intake over the client area and the skylight at the back with the fans nearby is the outlet; this can be clearly seen on the roof pictures with the fan shape of the exhaust. There was a discussion with Eng48 on the “main” thread.

  • Finally something to chew on! We now have a much better idea of what was where.

    Looks like what some were calling a sky light aligns with the vent with the big exhaust plume on the roof.

    I’m gonna wait for Engineer48 to tell me what he sees.

    The black cable from the wall to the customer set up got my attention though. Electrical power, I presume.

    EDIT: and the silver pipe on the back wall too! That adds some interesting possibilities.

    • Frank Acland

      It looks to me like these pictures were taken after the test was over, or maybe before it began, since the piping between the plant and the manufacturing unit is not visible. Compare with this http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/E-CatDoral.jpg

      • I had the same thought. But it’s also possible that the pipe is just obscured from view. (EDIT… well the little one anyway… the big silver one is definitely not there so yeah pre- or post-test, almost certainly).

        A talented 3D modeler could probably put together a pretty close approximation of the entire building and the pieces in it with what we have now. That would answer it.

        • wpj

          “Obvious” on the other thread has been supplying information to Eng48’s speculation. A lot of photos of the inside, pre-Rossi, are on the LENR forum together with the speculation (possibly the same poster?).

          • Obvious

            Yep. Just click my name, and you will see. I have had that name for maybe a couple years. Grandfathered this name is. Disqus changed the name thing some time ago, but I never changed mine fully over.

      • Bruce__H

        The door of the shipping container is shut in the new photo. In the pre-existing photo this is where the pipes appear to emerge from.

    • wpj

      “Obvious” has said that there is an air intake over the client area and the skylight at the back with the fans nearby is the outlet; this can be clearly seen on the roof pictures with the fan shape of the exhaust. There was a discussion with Eng48 on the “main” thread.

  • Monty

    these pictures look like they have been made with a 10 year old nokia phone. It was a 1 year test and there are no better photos available of the surroundings?

    • Ever get the feeling that we’re been spoon-fed?

    • bfast

      Um, IH has always claimed that they had exactly one chance to go into the warehouse. I somehow suspect that they wouldn’t have had even that if they had a big camera around their neck.

      • Ged

        No, they haven’t to my knowledge, only that Murray, who is not part of IH, had the one chance. Actually likely two, once he was there two consecutive days it seems like.

        The agreement had IH employees or customers able to visit (when escorted by Darden it appears?), and multiple accounts seem to back that up.

  • Monty

    these pictures look like they have been made with a 10 year old nokia phone. It was a 1 year test and there are no better photos available of the surroundings?

    • Ever get the feeling that we’re been spoon-fed?

    • bfast

      Um, IH has always claimed that they had exactly one chance to go into the warehouse. I somehow suspect that they wouldn’t have had even that if they had a big camera around their neck.

      • Ged

        No, they haven’t to my knowledge, only that Murray, who is not part of IH, had the one chance. Actually likely two, once he was there two consecutive days it seems like.

        The agreement had IH employees (obviously since they worked there) or customers able to visit (when escorted by Darden it appears?), and multiple accounts seem to back that up.

  • Mark

    bear in mind I’m a believer, I’m just asking the question. Whatever was made in that sealed off room, how often was it collected and removed from the site? Also how was it removed from the site. Is there big doors at the other end of that building space we can’t see? Did a big truck roll up every day?

    • Don’t know for sure but probably through the white door.

      It would be nice for the customer (real or not) would emerge and provide some details, because we don’t have a lot to go on besides the metal sponges angle.

      • wpj

        According to “Obvious”, the office area is behind the far door on the left. The shutter doors are behind the Rossi containers. At least there would be quite a bit of air movement with those two fans.

        • Concur… office in front, customer factory in middle, E-Cat plant and support containers nearest to loading doors.

          Looks like the customer factory has an exhaust pipe of some sort that aligns pretty closely (I think), with the ceiling vent we see on the overhead images of the roof.

          What is that silver pipe in back for???? That goes to the ceiling.

          • wpj

            Interesting that the viewing are from the offices/meetings room have been covered over.

          • wpj

            Silver pipe is the toilet fan……..

          • From the office section? So every warehouse unit has an exhaust pipe like that and not in the interior walls of the office area?

          • wpj

            Yes, it can be seen in the roof pictures as was pointed out by “Obvious” who seems to know a lot.

          • wpj

            Also, those walls are probably just a plasterboard skin.

          • Obvious

            Looks like 12 foot long ones.

          • Obvious

            Probably. At least when new.

        • Obvious

          That door in the back (office wall) is the bathroom door. The door to the offices is hidden behind the wall, but is right beside it. It has an exit sign above it.

          • wpj

            See, I told you he knew a lot!

          • Hidden behind the factory wall or hidden to the left (in the pic)? Looks like there may be part of a door visible there to the left but I don’t understand how from the perspective. Is the warehouse section not as wide as the office section?

            Also, Obvious, the black rectangle that looks like it’s coming up from the customer factory area… is that actually a hole on the ~2nd floor wall?

          • Obvious

            From the left, at the office-mezzanine wall end, there is a bathroom door (visible) and then the Customer wall, and then the main office entrance to the warehouse door. The two doors are right beside each other. It is actually a tight fit to get the wall between them.

            It does looks like a hole into the mezzanine. Some of the units have stairs leading up to the mezzanine from the warehouse end. I wasn’t able to see the hole there before.

          • So the black customer wall doesn’t go all the way back flush to the office space (aka bathroom) wall?

            Could have fooled me. What is there like 5″ space back there?

          • Obvious

            I’m not sure what you mean. It looks like the Customer wall goes all the way to the wall. The door you see is the bathroom door. On the same wall as the bathroom door, immediately to the right of it, is another door. The warehouse to office area door (alternate fire escape). It is behind the wall, out of sight.

          • Oh ok. I just think it’s strange that the office area would have direct access to the customer area.

            Did they keep that locked at all times?

            Did visitors enter via the bathroom?

          • Obvious

            No one was allowed to enter from the office end, except Rossi.
            Rossi made everyone that visited walk around the building, according to Mr. Weaver.
            I don’t think that you can enter the office area from the bathroom.
            There is another bathroom in the office area.

          • Heh. Mystery solved. Loading door entry only for non-customer, non-Leonardo types.

      • wpj

        If it is metal sponge production, these are stored in barrels over water and would fit through that door. More problem would be the waste, unless this was concentrated up with the excess heat left over.

    • No loading doors at that end – just a reception space and stairs. That alone is IMHO enough to negate the ‘production’ story – unless a chain of blokes passed buckets of incoming materials and outgoing products and waste to one another through the small white door, 24/7.

      • Ged

        Would completely depend on the volumn of production I would suppose. Those divider walls may be openable on the side we can’t seen unless the container side divider does go all the way to the far wall. Hard to say exactly from these pics.

        Though, that brings up an interesting question: why does no one seem to take a picture of the right side of the area facing the offices? We have yet to see what is on the other side of the container…

      • Obvious

        200000 kg a day moved through those doors, if the endothermic reaction story is to be believed.

        • Ged

          Unless it is pumped out a liquid to external tanks, 200 tons would definitely take a much larger team and equipment to move daily, if that estimate is accurate or realistic.

          That would be just 5 W per kg. Hmm. I don’t know about that, Obvious…

          • Obvious

            I was generous with the negative heat to mass end of the equation. I had actually come up with 280000 kg, using some of the strongest endothermic reactions known. That assumes perfect endothermic reactions, too.

          • Ged

            Really? 3.6 watts per kg is enough to do much of anything? Is this trying to calculate all 1 MW absorbed?

          • Obvious

            I am working from memory. 300 to 400 Joules per gram seems to be the high end of normal endothermic reactions. Since heat is supposedly continuously added, there may be other reactions with higher values, but they are hard to find, or worse, calculate from scratch.
            Feel free to re-do my numbers. I am not sold on them. I could have screwed it up.

          • Ged

            Oh, I am not saying you are wrong or anything, it is just a shockingly low ratio of power to weight at first blush. But, sometimes that is how it is! Scale can be a surprising thing.

            We can look at ice melting, which is endothermic. There it takes 334 kJ to melt a kg of ice. If we suppose all of the 1 MW of power from the plant is being used to do that–rather than just enough to have standard cooling handle the rest and keep the place at room temp–you would have a daily near ~1 C degree melt water production rate of 258,682 liters per day, or 258.7 cubic meters per day.

            If the water was also brought to 60 C before discharge, which is the max allowable for sewers in the area without a permit, that would take another 246,974 joules per kg or liter. In which case, the whole process now allows production of 148,715 liters of 60 C water, or 148.7 cubic meters per day.

            Both rates seem ok for sewage discharge as far as I can find based on pipes and code, but I don’t know for certain.

            Of course, moving 140 kg of ice into the place daily would not go unnoticed and would take more than the one door we see in our current view. Of course, not all the 1 MW would need be used, just enough to not over power the cooling capacity available. But no idea exactly what that would be, so it is too ill defined to make an hypothesis in yet.

          • Obvious

            Of course 140000 kg of ice, you meant.

          • Ged

            Oh yes, dropped that pesky k!

        • Yes…. if.

  • Mark

    bear in mind I’m a believer, I’m just asking the question. Whatever was made in that sealed off room, how often was it collected and removed from the site? Also how was it removed from the site. Is there big doors at the other end of that building space we can’t see? Did a big truck roll up every day?

    • Don’t know for sure but probably through the white door.

      It would be nice if the customer (real or not) would emerge and provide some details, because we don’t have a lot to go on besides the metal sponges angle.

      • wpj

        According to “Obvious”, the office area is behind the far door on the left. The shutter doors are behind the Rossi containers. At least there would be quite a bit of air movement with those two fans.

        • Concur… office in front, customer factory in middle, E-Cat plant and support containers nearest to loading doors.

          Looks like the customer factory has an exhaust pipe of some sort that aligns pretty closely (I think), with the ceiling vent we see on the overhead images of the roof.

          What is that silver pipe in back for???? That goes to the ceiling.

          • wpj

            Interesting that the viewing are from the offices/meetings room have been covered over.

          • wpj

            Silver pipe is the toilet fan……..

          • From the office section? So every warehouse unit has an exhaust pipe like that and not in the interior walls of the office area?

          • wpj

            Yes, it can be seen in the roof pictures as was pointed out by “Obvious” who seems to know a lot.

          • wpj

            Also, those walls are probably just a plasterboard skin.

          • Obvious

            Looks like 12 foot long ones.

          • Obvious

            Probably. At least when new.

        • Obvious

          That door in the back (office wall) is the bathroom door. The door to the offices is hidden behind the wall, but is right beside it. It has an exit sign above it.

          I can see what the “coffered” part I saw earlier is now though. That mezzanine wall has been there since before Rossi et al moved in.

          • wpj

            See, I told you he knew a lot!

          • Hidden behind the factory wall or hidden to the left (in the pic)? Looks like there may be part of a door visible there to the left but I don’t understand how from the perspective. Is the warehouse section not as wide as the office section?

            Also, Obvious, the black rectangle that looks like it’s coming up from the customer factory area… is that actually a hole on the ~2nd floor wall?

          • Obvious

            From the left, at the office-mezzanine wall end, there is a bathroom door (visible) and then the Customer wall, and then the main-office-entrance-to-the-warehouse door. The two doors are right beside each other. It is actually a tight fit to get the wall between them.

            It does looks like a hole into the mezzanine. Some of the units have stairs leading up to the mezzanine from the warehouse end. I wasn’t able to see the hole there before.

          • So the black customer wall doesn’t go all the way back flush to the office space (aka bathroom) wall?

            Could have fooled me. What is there like 5″ space back there?

          • Obvious

            I’m not sure what you mean. It looks like the Customer wall goes all the way to the wall. The door you see is the bathroom door. On the same wall as the bathroom door, immediately to the right of it, is another door. The warehouse to office area door (alternate fire escape). It is behind the wall, out of sight.

          • Oh ok. I just think it’s strange that the office area would have direct access to the customer area.

            Did they keep that locked at all times?

            Did visitors enter via the bathroom?

          • Obvious

            No one was allowed to enter from the office end, except Rossi.
            Rossi made everyone that visited walk around the building, according to Mr. Weaver.
            I don’t think that you can enter the office area from the bathroom.
            There is another bathroom in the office area.

          • Heh. Mystery solved. Loading door entry only for non-customer, non-Leonardo types.

      • wpj

        If it is metal sponge production, these are stored in barrels over water and would fit through that door. More problem would be the waste, unless this was concentrated up with the excess heat left over.

    • Bruce__H

      According to Jed Rothwell, IH had the same questions in mind and thought that there wasn’t enough activity to account for an industrial process running 24/7. I expect they kept a little log of activity in and out of the customer side for a couple of days while the Rossi plant was running.

      • Rossi is way out on a limb with that story. However, if he can show that the dark container housed a simulated load with logging facilities he might get away with it.

    • No loading doors at that end – just a reception space and stairs to offices above. That alone is IMHO enough to negate the ‘production’ story – unless a chain of blokes passed buckets of incoming materials and outgoing products and waste to one another through the small white door, 24/7.

      • Ged

        Would completely depend on the volume of production I would suppose. Those divider walls may be openable on the side we can’t seen unless the container side divider does go all the way to the far wall. Hard to say exactly from these pics.

        Though, that brings up an interesting question: why does no one seem to take a picture of the right side of the area facing the offices? We have yet to see what is on the other side of the container…

      • Obvious

        200000 kg a day moved through those doors, if the endothermic reaction story is to be believed.

        • Ged

          Unless it is pumped out a liquid to external tanks, 200 tons would definitely take a much larger team and equipment to move daily, if that estimate is accurate or realistic.

          That would be just 5 W per kg. Hmm. I don’t know about that, Obvious…

          • Obvious

            I was generous with the negative heat to mass end of the equation. I had actually come up with 280000 kg, using some of the strongest endothermic reactions known. That assumes perfect endothermic reactions, too.

          • Ged

            Really? 3.6 watts per kg is enough to do much of anything? Is this trying to calculate all 1 MW absorbed?

          • Obvious

            I am working from memory. 300 to 400 Joules per gram seems to be the high end of normal endothermic reactions. Since heat is supposedly continuously added, there may be other reactions with higher values, but they are hard to find, or worse, calculate from scratch.
            Feel free to re-do my numbers. I am not sold on them. I could have screwed it up.

            (It looked hopeless for finding any reasonable volume, calculating backwards from the maximum and reducing volume while increasing heat loss. So I quit going down that path.)

          • Ged

            Oh, I am not saying you are wrong or anything, it is just a shockingly low ratio of power to weight at first blush. But, sometimes that is how it is! Scale can be a surprising thing.

            We can look at ice melting, which is endothermic. There it takes 334 kJ to melt a kg of ice. If we suppose all of the 1 MW of power from the plant is being used to do that–rather than just enough to have standard cooling handle the rest and keep the place at room temp–you would have a daily near ~1 C degree melt water production rate of 258,682 liters per day, or 258.7 cubic meters per day.

            If the water was also brought to 60 C before discharge, which is the max allowable for sewers in the area without a permit, that would take another 246,974 joules per kg or liter. In which case, the whole process now allows production of 148,715 liters of 60 C water, or 148.7 cubic meters per day.

            Both rates seem ok for sewage discharge as far as I can find based on pipes and code, but I don’t know for certain.

            Of course, moving 140k kg of ice into the place daily would not go unnoticed and would take more than the one door we see in our current view. Of course, not all the 1 MW would need be used, just enough to not over power the cooling capacity available. But no idea exactly what that would be, so it is too ill defined to make an hypothesis in yet.

          • Obvious

            Of course 140000 kg of ice, you meant.

          • Ged

            Oh yes, dropped that pesky k!

        • Yes…. if.

        • Bruce__H

          I thought it must be a huge amount! Can you show the math?

          The only remaining way to get rid of the heat is down the drain. I calculated that it is just barely possible to do this but only at great expense (over $1000 a day) and only if there is a greater than 1 in 10 gradient drop in the connecting drain that goes out to the street sewer.

  • Bruce__H

    This exhibit looks to me like part of IH’s case that 1 MW of heat was never transferred to the customer’s space.

    Would everyone agree that the ceiling venting is inadequate to account for 1 MW of heat dispersion?

    Edit: My speculation above is backed up by paragraph 82 of the amended Answer. And the photos in the new exhibit have been purposely taken to try an span the whole ceiling. So my question can be restated –> Does everyone agree with Murray’s contention that the building ventilation is inadequate to account for 1 MW of heat dispersion?

    • Ged

      Dunno yet, I started the calculations on that if one uses convective cooling such as with fans, but I haven’t had time to finish the conversions to real world. Here are the numbers if they help:

      1 MW is 3,414,425.94972 btu/hour, and that seems to equal 20,925.72 atmosphere cfm of fan cooling, or roughly 9.85 m^3/s of air flow to completely remove it all (not sure at all how different air temps affect this, or if that doesn’t matter since this is a complete replacement of the MW containing air?). It is more complex than this as there are other heat transfer modes than just air flow, but it’s a start; need the numbers double checked as I do -Not- know for sure if they are right.

      This has a nice looking guide, though its JavaScript is broken on my device: http://m.industrialfansdirect.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.industrialfansdirect.com%2FCFM_Calculator.html&utm_referrer=#2827

      Most standard size fans I am finding are in the 3k cfm range, in which case you would need around 7 or so to fully keep that place cool, but the fans in the pic are much bigger than what I have found so far, and might be 5k cfm a pop.

      This is definitely solveable, I just don’t have the time at this exact minute, but maybe you or others can solve it the rest of the way.

      • Bruce__H

        I worked this out with some others at one point. A fan with, I think it was, a 20 inch diameter would do the trick but the air speeds would be something like 10 m/s. This would result in a very obvious (and, you would think, noisy) stream of hot air errupting from the roof. Under the right circumstances it would be readily visible as rapidly emerging billows of white clouds. Even if the steam is not white from entrapped water droplets the heat signature of the plume would be difficult to miss.

        At this point, do we believe IH (via Jed) that there is no readily discernible plume of heat from the building? I mean if it were a subtle thing I see how it could be missed but this would have to be an enormous heat signature wouldn’t it? How could they miss it if they looked for it?

        • Ged

          Well, not really. It would not make visible plumes either. A plume is from hot, high absolute humidity, saturated air hitting much cooler air below the relative humidity (dew point) of the hot air. The exhausted air here would have started with the same absolute humidity as the atmosphere it vents to, so there would never be a plume unless there was a significant fluid leak to increase absolute humidity inside the structure.

          Anyways, I don’t think IR cameras pick up air all that well, particularly if moving. I would have to look at this more closely though. The roof does look like it has exhaust heat damage in the characteristic pattern of such, but who knows when it occurred.

          Edit: the better use of an ir camera would be to look at the vent itself; it wouldn’t heat up a ton, but it would be hotter than the surrounding roof if not in direct sun. I’ll look into this and update you more if I find any definite answers (unless you find them first).

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            Moving target. Many of the calculations involving how much heat could be removed with fans assume humid air. Consider humid air in the Florida summer. Not fun. Basically, yes, they could use the heat to evaporate water, then blow it out, but … this would be grossly uncomfortable, unless contained, requiring ductwork, etc., would use a lot of water (which gets expensive when you use a lot), and would definitely create a steam plume, since it would be much more humid than the outside air.

            IR cameras should be able to pick up hot humid air, but I’m not sure about that. What they would see is the vent, definitely, as being quite hot.

            I guess people want to know before the facts come out. It’s a game. None of this is going to help Rossi, and Rossi’s attitude of “lies” and “clownery” would not impress a jury. He’s going to need evidence, and contrary what he emits, there is plenty of evidence in the filing — or asserted evidence, i.e, the Murray report itself is not directly evidence, it is what would be admitted under oath.

  • Ged

    Yes, more data! Exactly what we need, and I figured they would have to provide more. Looking forward to viewing the new amendments.

    Edit: seems there is only one new one? Any alterations to previous ones?

  • “83. Leonardo, Rossi, JMP, Johnson, USQL, Fabiani, and John Doe also restricted
    access to the JMP area at the Doral location, claiming that there was a secretive manufacturingprocess being conducted there, when in fact it was simply recycling steam from the Plant and sending it back to the Plant as water.”

    What is “USQL” and who is “John Doe”?

    Perhaps they meant to replace “John Doe” with a real name and forgot to?

    • wpj

      USQL = Fabiani (his company)

      Joe Doe = James A Bass or the actor that played hime

  • “83. Leonardo, Rossi, JMP, Johnson, USQL, Fabiani, and John Doe also restricted
    access to the JMP area at the Doral location, claiming that there was a secretive manufacturingprocess being conducted there, when in fact it was simply recycling steam from the Plant and sending it back to the Plant as water.”

    What is “USQL” and who is “John Doe”?

    Perhaps they meant to replace “John Doe” with a real name and forgot to?

    • Michael W Wolf

      They are referring to James Bass. Still trying to act like he doesn’t exist. USQL is tied to Fabiani I think.

    • wpj

      USQL = Fabiani (his company)

      Joe Doe = James A Bass or the actor that played hime

  • Gerard McEk

    So why is this coming later as an amendment? The issue was discussed at length at the different sites.
    The method used to get rid of 1MW of heat at the customers side requires a plausible answer indeed.

    • Robert Dorr

      A method to get rid of the excess unused thermal energy might be to remove it with a heat ex changer, mix the high temperature water expelled by the heat ex changer with utility water which is probably in the range of 14 to 18 degrees Celsius to bring it down to the constant 60 degrees Celsius that Rossi indicated the return water was at and that is required by law to dump into the sewer system and do just that, dump the excess into the sewer system. No need for a big cooling system with its associated duct work and exhaust fans. This would probably be more expensive if this were to be installed long term, but this was just a one year test. To know for sure it would be nice to get a look at the water bill for the customer and that would probably tell us enough.

      • Gerard McEk

        I agree, one of the last methods left, especially if no fans were found at the outside. It would indeed be interesting to see the water bill.
        On the other hand, there are some processes that require lots of heat (endothermic reaction), but I doubt that was the case there.

    • Obvious

      One of the earlier exhibits was a duplicate of another. Maybe this just fixes it up.

  • Gerard McEk

    So why is this coming later as an amendment? The issue was discussed at length at the different sites.
    The method used to get rid of 1MW of heat at the customers side requires a plausible answer indeed.

    • Robert Dorr

      A method to get rid of the excess unused thermal energy might be to remove it with a heat ex changer, mix the high temperature water expelled by the heat ex changer with utility water which is probably in the range of 14 to 18 degrees Celsius to bring it down to the constant 60 degrees Celsius that Rossi indicated the return water was at and that is required by law to dump into the sewer system and do just that, dump the excess into the sewer system. No need for a big cooling system with its associated duct work and exhaust fans. This would probably be more expensive if this were to be installed long term, but this was just a one year test. To know for sure it would be nice to get a look at the water bill for the customer and that would probably tell us enough.

      • Gerard McEk

        I agree, one of the last methods left, especially if no fans were found at the outside. It would indeed be interesting to see the water bill.
        On the other hand, there are some processes that require lots of heat (endothermic reaction), but I doubt that was the case there.

    • Obvious

      One of the earlier exhibits was a duplicate of another. Maybe this just fixes it up.

  • Billy Jackson

    sounds like a strawman argument.. take a space heater 2 foot or so.. and place it in a large living room… turn your AC on… guess which one is going to win?? while the e-cat runs at very high temperatures the actual devices are only a few inches across by about a foot long.. and insulated from the pictures i remember seeing.. now you take 6 of these 1 foot devices and put them in a 80 x 150 foot room.. and they might put out energy locally.. but they will not have the power to heat that large area up and compete with the AC unit thats designed to cool that size room down. (i have no clue how the steam is being handled..after its used, piped outside? piped through cooling coils? i don’t know.

    what i do know is i have stood next to a brick kiln running at over (so i was told)3500 degree’s and yes its hot when you are within about 10 foot… but move away from that.. and it starts to cool off rapidly overheating was never an issue in the building unless you were within 10 feet of that kiln.. i would suspect the same from (maybe not even that much of an issue since its got a smaller footprint)

    • bfast

      Um, your average plug-in space heater outputs 1500 watts, or 1.5 kilowatts. Rossi’s plant claimed to output 1 megawatt, or the equivalent of 0ver 600 personal space heaters. I don’t care how you configure 600 space heaters, they’ll heat up a large warehouse quite handily.

      • Agreed, although a roof fan vent (not visible in the new photos) could eject a significant amount of heat. There is also what may be a large bore water supply pipe on the wall at the rear of the enclosure, which could indicate water cooling.

        But what has happened to the two steam pipes connecting the black (customer) container/trailer to the red e-cat container? They seem to have disappeared in the third photo (or perhaps haven’t been connected at the time the photo was taken).

        • Thomas Kaminski

          I think it is a “before operations started” picture.

    • Obvious

      Where does the AC unit blow the heat it extracts in your example?

      • Billy Jackson

        let me try this. An AC unit on the top of a building or out back.. can put out as much cold air as its registered to.. but it wont do a thing to cooldown the room or building if their is no air blowing (blower motor on the ac) to move that cold air around.

        the same with the E-cat.. it can be as hot as it wants.. but air is not a great conductor of heat and cold when it comes to things with a small footprint.. the key here is the foot print of the device.. the e-cat coils are only a foot long by a few inches..and insulated, and stuck inside a container, and its using most of its energy to heat water, so yes its putting out a great amount of heat.. but the VOLUME of the area defeats the footprint of the amount of heat it can put out.. it would need something blowing that hot air around to have a greater effect.. what heat that does escape dissipates in that large open area since it cant compete with a 5+ ton AC unit that’s designed to cool that size area down (i don’t know how big the area is or what tonnage that unit is capable of displacing.. we have a small office about a quarter that size but only 10 foot high.. and it uses a 3.5 ton unit)

        • Obvious

          How long do you suppose that insulation around a foot-long reactor takes to reach the almost the same temperature as the reactor? A day? A week? Once it reaches the same temperature, it too will radiate heat. There will be a gradient, but insulation isn’t magic.
          Fun experiment. Can be done with a Barbie Oven.

          • Billy Jackson

            I do not know i am not an engineer 🙂 .. but in the end it comes down to volume vs your heat footprint a smaller device that does not move air around will have trouble competing with a larger one designed to move air around.. I would expect one of our local guys here on the forums could explain it in a better technical aspect that i can.

            I just know that with the e-cat being inside a machine, the insulation, the waste heat being dumped into steam, and then diverted to another device.. that heat build up could easily be diverted either out the roof and suppressed to just a few degree’s above normal by a good commercial ac system.

          • Obvious

            A 1 MW cooling system. Sounds expensive.

          • Billy Jackson

            unfortunately we dont have a compete makeup of the interior and how the cooling is handled or how the steam is captured and recycled without it.. we just dont have any thing to go by.. i am speaking specifically of the e-cat device itself. its small size will not have a huge impact on a room of that size. we have no details on how they displaced the internal heat. just a picture of a wall and a tall ceiling.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Billy, recycling can be excluded.
            The output was measured to be approx 1MW so 1MW was being output at all times on average.

            Recycling is an extraneous variable. 1MW was output so 1MW must be either dissipated or have performed work.

          • Billy Jackson

            unfortunately we don’t have the information 🙁 the assumption is that the device that was used for production consumed quite a bit of the energy??? ) what was left we dont know what was done with it or where it went 🙁 ..

            My argument is only based on the heat of the e-cat running at temperature vs the volume of the room. I think that heat could easily be displaced due to the size of the room and the size of the e-cat.. (flick a lighter in a tent and its not gonna get any warmer (your bodies will cause the tent to heat up faster than the lighter will)

            Volume and distribution play a huge roll.

          • Gerard McEk

            Indeed, the AC cooler requires 200-300 kW continuously Huge compressor big fans and a big condensor outside (which apparently wasn’t there). I do not think that was used.

          • My2c

            Supposing you use a heat exchanger to cool down the steam from the 1MW plant (which circulates in the closed primary loop), then you would need roughly such size of cooling tower
            http://www.lanco-corp.com/Chilling-Cooling-Towers-C/Used-Chilling-Cooling-Tower-Marley-370-Ton-Model-NC4102GS-Cooling-Tower-C2034.html
            in order to maintain the cooling water temperature in the secondary loop.
            Of course you would have to find a place outside of the building where you are allowed to install and operate the cooling tower, and you would have a continous water consumption (to replace the evaporated water).
            Not realistic that such a cooling system could be installed outside of the warehouse – and nobody would notice that.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            You don’t get the surface temperature of the outside of the insulation to reach the same temperature as the inside, hot surface. The insulation presents a resistive path through which the heat must flow, from hot to cold. The outside temperature can be only a few degrees above room temperature if the insulation R values is high enough.

          • Obvious

            What is the R value of a plywood box with some pink insulation stuffed in it?

          • Thomas Kaminski

            What is the purpose of the question. There are many R-value calculators on line. Look it up…

          • wpj

            I worked in a chemical plant north of Barcelona which had 15 reactors in there, 5 of which were constantly boiling xylene (145-150C) and most of the others were heating as well. There really wasn’t any problem there with regards to heat as everything was so well lagged. Clearly, if everything is well lagged, the heat requirement is lessened considerably.

            Where does 1 MW of heat go? No idea, but I really don’t believe that Rossi would be so stupid/mad/dumb/insane (take your pick) as to iniitiate the law suit unless it was fully backed up with facts (though I could be wrong!).

          • Obvious

            There are so many questions, and so many conflicting and weird answers.

          • Ged

            It’s all a matter of how many cfm of air flow cooling there is versus heat flow through the insulation. If cfm is faster, the outside will stay cool.

          • Obvious

            Rossi indicated that the plant normally works with the doors closed.

            “What do you mean? We have not to step over plumbing and cabling with the plant in operation. Maybe I am not understanding. Can you rephrase? When the plant is operating all the doors are closed, nobody has to stay inside. We monitor everuthing from the computers.”
            – JoNP February 18, 2015

          • Ged

            Hm, not sure what he means by no body has to stay inside. The warehouse or the plant’s container?

          • Obvious

            The container, presumably.
            Here is the “question” he is answering.

            “I congratulate you on your E-Cat 1 MW plant design.
            May I suggest, in the next generation, you use a raised grating floor in the shipping container so you do not have to step over your plumbing and cabling.”

          • He meant people don’t stay in the plant container, normally, during operation.

            He had another post where he said he goes in there sometimes to ‘listen’ and it’s pretty toasty, but nothing he can’t deal with for a short time.

          • Bruce__H

            a MW is not an amount of energy, it is a rate of energy delivery. It is 1 million Joules of energy being delivered per second. After 1 second there is 1 million Joules sitting there and, if that energy is not led away, after 2 seconds there will be 2 million Joules and so on.

            So the answer to where does 1 MW of heat go must be answered. You can’t just wave away physics.

          • Bruce__H

            “The outside temperature can be only a few degrees above room temperature if the insulation R values is high enough”

            What is your reasoning here? As far a I can see it isn’t true at steady state. The only thing the insulation alters is the time constant for approach to steady state but since the plant is running 24/7 I think we can assume that everything is running at steady state.

          • MikeP

            Bruce, Why would a building like this be sealed? That doesn’t make sense as a starting point. Why not calculate what kind of airflow would be needed to remove that much heat (even assuming that all 1 MW was vented and none used).

          • Thomas Kaminski

            Bruce,

            It is certainly true at steady state. Think about a dewar of liquid nitrogen. The inside temperature is 77 degrees Kelvin. The outside is at room temperature or slightly below, around 300 Kelvin. You can pick the dewar up without freezing your hand.

            At equilibrium (actually, it is never quite at equilibrium because it is losing nitrogen), the rate of boil-off is determined by the thermal conduction through the dewar walls.

            You seem to be confused about where the thermal energy generated by the LENR reaction is going. It is primarily going into the steam from boiling off the water. The touch temperature of the boiler case is immaterial, assuming it is reasonably well insulated.

        • MikeP

          At equilibrium, 1 MW needs to reach the outside air. One advantage of a tall space is that heat concentrates at the top. Air in Florida is generally quite humid. Assuming a 2% water vapor concentration and the temperature at the peak is 20 C above outdoors (attics often get that hot or hotter – also remember that one is averaging day and night), then only about 0.6 kg/s of air needs to be vented to the outside at equilibrium. This represents about 0.5 cubic meters of air per second. A roof vent fan from Home Depot can achieve this. I would think that a commercial roof vent fan would have no trouble …

          • The only way to get a true idea about the heat situation is calculation. Claiming things, without backing it up with math, is just game play to convince non-engineers.
            Yet I like Torkel Nyberg/Sifferkoll’s rule of thumb for saunas:

            “Rule of thumb for a well insulated sauna is about 1kW per m³ to be able to heat it to ~90⁰C. Adding 1 m³ per every m² of window or other not so well insulated areas. And as everyone who ever used a sauna the heat in it is very dependent on people not running in and out the door all the time ‘Don’t let the heat out!’ ”

            In a sauna, of course, we are talking about a non-insulated heat source.

          • Ged

            So far from the preliminary math I did below it looks plausible to cool a significant portion or all of the place with the fans we see. I need to finish some double checking though before I can make tentative conclusions on requirements, and see if anyone else calculates the same or corrects me. Any other absorbers in the heat budget would greatly lower the airflow cooling demand as well, so this is a complicated question.

            Thank you for the sense of scale with that rule of thumb.

          • Mats002

            I would love to see tyy alias Timo (he is from Finland and know saunas) to make that calculation! All the numbers are available.

          • 😀

          • Alain Samoun

            90⁰C! These Swedes really like the heat 😉

          • LookMoo
          • Optimist

            So Mats. Based on what you already know and have seen, how long would you guess that it takes until RossI has a viable product to demonstrate? Months or years?

          • Don’t know yet.

          • sam

            Mats
            Take One sharp security
            guard that was working at the Ecat test site and ask them a few
            questions.
            They might give a better idea about whether the Ecat worked
            than engineers.data,lawyers,
            Scientists and any other expert
            including M.Y.
            Regards
            Sam

          • Ok. Where do I find this security guard?

          • sam

            I got to thinking that they might have had to sign an
            NDA also.
            But one of them might leak the story to National Enquirer.

          • Obvious

            I think there is something wrong with those calculations.
            We have 1 million Joules per second to move by a fan to maintain equilibrium.

          • Ged

            We do have the advantage of natural hot-air-rises convection currents independent of any human intervention, but I don’t know how to calculate that yet. I’ll put it in the queue…

          • MikeP

            A Joule is not very big … the heat capacity of humid air is about 80 kJ / kg / dev C. So a 10 degree difference and about 1.2 kg per cubic meter of air means about 1 cubic meter per second needs to be vented. At a 20 degree difference about half a cubic meter per second.

          • Obvious

            I did things a bit different. Remember that the air is coming in with a certain heat value. So I did two cases: one where the ambient was 20°C, and the outflow was 40°C, and the second where air in was 30°C and outflow was 40°C .

            What I did was calculate all of the heat for each T separately, then subtracted the enthalpy of the lower heat from the higher heat, to get the difference.
            I ended up with 40 m^3/s for the 40-20°C one, and 79.8 m^3/s for the 40-30°C case.

            These are 83864 cfm for the first, and 167729 cfm for the second case.

            Edit: (rounding m^3 to cubic feet conversion to 35*, I just noticed)

          • Ged

            I enjoy some of the examples in this page just thrown up there.

            http://m.industrialfansdirect.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.industrialfansdirect.com%2F&utm_referrer=#2600

            Some of these roof vents can output some really impressive CFM. The sales pitch on the page is also fun, though it is interesting they say a combined intake/exhaust system should have 5 times the CFM in exhausting power compared to intake to prevent blowing things like contaminants around.

          • MikeP

            You’re right, I messed up the first number …

  • Billy Jackson

    sounds like a strawman argument.. take a space heater 2 foot or so.. and place it in a large living room… turn your AC on… guess which one is going to win?? while the e-cat runs at very high temperatures the actual devices are only a few inches across by about a foot long.. and insulated from the pictures i remember seeing.. now you take 6 of these 1 foot devices and put them in a 80 x 150 foot room.. and they might put out energy locally.. but they will not have the power to heat that large area up and compete with the AC unit thats designed to cool that size room down. (i have no clue how the steam is being handled..after its used, piped outside? piped through cooling coils? i don’t know.

    what i do know is i have stood next to a brick kiln running at over (so i was told)3500 degree’s and yes its hot when you are within about 10 foot… but move away from that.. and it starts to cool off rapidly overheating was never an issue in the building unless you were within 10 feet of that kiln.. i would suspect the same from this test(maybe not even that much of an issue since its got a smaller footprint)

    • bfast

      Um, your average plug-in space heater outputs 1500 watts, or 1.5 kilowatts. Rossi’s plant claimed to output 1 megawatt, or the equivalent of 0ver 600 personal space heaters. I don’t care how you configure 600 space heaters, they’ll heat up a large warehouse quite handily.

      • Agreed, although a roof fan vent (not visible in the new photos) could eject a significant amount of heat. Or, is that a large water pipe in the nearest cable tray, and connected to the black unit?

        But what has happened to the two steam pipes connecting the black (customer) container/trailer to the red e-cat container? They seem to have disappeared in the third photo (or perhaps haven’t been connected at the time the photo was taken).

        • Thomas Kaminski

          I think it is a “before operations started” picture.

    • Obvious

      Where does the AC unit blow the heat it extracts in your example?

      • Billy Jackson

        let me try this. An AC unit on the top of a building or out back.. can put out as much cold air as its registered to.. but it wont do a thing to cooldown the room or building if their is no air blowing (blower motor on the ac) to move that cold air around.

        the same with the E-cat.. it can be as hot as it wants.. but air is not a great conductor of heat and cold when it comes to things with a small footprint.. the key here is the foot print of the device.. the e-cat coils are only a foot long by a few inches..and insulated, and stuck inside a container, and its using most of its energy to heat water, so yes its putting out a great amount of heat.. but the VOLUME of the area defeats the footprint of the amount of heat it can put out.. it would need something blowing that hot air around to have a greater effect.. what heat that does escape dissipates in that large open area since it cant compete with a 5+ ton AC unit that’s designed to cool that size area down (i don’t know how big the area is or what tonnage that unit is capable of displacing.. we have a small office about a quarter that size but only 10 foot high.. and it uses a 3.5 ton unit)

        • Obvious

          How long do you suppose that insulation around a foot-long reactor takes to reach the almost the same temperature as the reactor? A day? A week? Once it reaches the same temperature, it too will radiate heat. There will be a gradient, but insulation isn’t magic.
          Fun experiment. Can be done with a Barbie Oven.

          • Billy Jackson

            I do not know i am not an engineer 🙂 .. but in the end it comes down to volume vs your heat footprint a smaller device that does not move air around will have trouble competing with a larger one designed to move air around.. I would expect one of our local guys here on the forums could explain it in a better technical aspect that i can.

            I just know that with the e-cat being inside a machine, the insulation, the waste heat being dumped into steam, and then diverted to another device.. that heat build up could easily be diverted either out the roof and suppressed to just a few degree’s above normal by a good commercial ac system.

          • Obvious

            A 1 MW cooling system. Sounds expensive.

          • Billy Jackson

            unfortunately we dont have a compete makeup of the interior and how the cooling is handled or how the steam is captured and recycled without it.. we just dont have any thing to go by.. i am speaking specifically of the e-cat device itself. its small size will not have a huge impact on a room of that size. we have no details on how they displaced the internal heat. just a picture of a wall and a tall ceiling.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Billy, recycling can be excluded.
            The output was measured to be approx 1MW so 1MW was being output at all times on average.

            Recycling is an extraneous variable. 1MW was output so 1MW must be either dissipated or have performed work.

          • Billy Jackson

            unfortunately we don’t have the information 🙁 the assumption is that the device that was used for production consumed quite a bit of the energy??? ) what was left we dont know what was done with it or where it went 🙁 ..

            My argument is only based on the heat of the e-cat running at temperature vs the volume of the room. I think that heat could easily be displaced due to the size of the room and the size of the e-cat.. (flick a lighter in a tent and its not gonna get any warmer (your bodies will cause the tent to heat up faster than the lighter will)

            Volume and distribution play a huge roll.

          • Bruce__H

            Back when we thought that the customer facility was separated by a floor to ceiling wall I calculated that 1 MW of heat freely released into the customer side would raise the air temperature by 10 degrees C per minute until the walls and floor became so hot that they began to radiate to the outer air and the ground (a point somewhere above 70 degrees C). Now that we know the ecat side and the customer facility are one big space I would guess that the rate of temperature rise would be something just a little below 4 degrees C per minute.

            This is just physics. This is why some sort of ventilation or heat capture is needed. .

          • MikeP

            Bruce, Why would a building like this be sealed? That doesn’t make sense as a starting point. Why not calculate what kind of airflow would be needed to remove that much heat (even assuming that all 1 MW was vented and none used).

          • Bruce__H

            The rise in air temperature in a sealed room is the first step in a discussion. Since, manifestly, the temperature of the room was not rising at 4 degrees C per minute the deduction is that either the heat is being dispersed through some route or it was never there in the first place.

            As a second step, some of us began considering routes of heat removal and calculating how big the opening in the ceiling would have to be etc. The nice thing about the new exhibit is it limits some of these possibilities.

            You can follow some of these discussion and calculations on the ecat news thread called “Jed Rothwell on an Unpublished E-Cat Test Report that “Looks Like it Worked””

          • Bruce__H

            Please be careful when you talk about heat being “used”. Unless it is trapped in the formation of new chemical bonds, heat does not go away even when it is used for some manufacturing. It is still around and needs to be dealt with.

          • MikeP

            I think we all get conservation of energy … used means converted from heat to something else … however I’m not sure what you mean by dealt with … this could be in the form of mechanical removal through the door 🙂

          • Gerard McEk

            Indeed, the AC cooler requires 200-300 kW continuously Huge compressor big fans and a big condensor outside (which apparently wasn’t there). I do not think that was used.

          • My2c

            Supposing you use a heat exchanger to cool down the steam from the 1MW plant (which circulates in the closed primary loop), then you would need roughly such size of cooling tower
            http://www.lanco-corp.com/Chilling-Cooling-Towers-C/Used-Chilling-Cooling-Tower-Marley-370-Ton-Model-NC4102GS-Cooling-Tower-C2034.html
            in order to maintain the cooling water temperature in the secondary loop.
            Of course you would have to find a place outside of the building where you are allowed to install and operate the cooling tower, and you would have a continous water consumption (to replace the evaporated water).
            Not realistic that such a cooling system could be installed outside of the warehouse – and nobody would notice that.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            You don’t get the surface temperature of the outside of the insulation to reach the same temperature as the inside, hot surface. The insulation presents a resistive path through which the heat must flow, from hot to cold. The outside temperature can be only a few degrees above room temperature if the insulation R values is high enough.

          • Obvious

            What is the R value of a plywood box with some pink insulation stuffed in it?

          • Thomas Kaminski

            What is the purpose of the question. There are many R-value calculators on line. Look it up…

          • wpj

            I worked in a chemical plant north of Barcelona which had 15 reactors in there, 5 of which were constantly boiling xylene (145-150C) and most of the others were heating as well. There really wasn’t any problem there with regards to heat as everything was so well lagged. Clearly, if everything is well lagged, the heat requirement is lessened considerably.

            Where does 1 MW of heat go? No idea, but I really don’t believe that Rossi would be so stupid/mad/dumb/insane (take your pick) as to iniitiate the law suit unless it was fully backed up with facts (though I could be wrong!).

          • Obvious

            There are so many questions, and so many conflicting and weird answers.

          • Ged

            It’s all a matter of how many cfm of air flow cooling there is versus heat flow through the insulation. If cfm is faster, the outside will stay cool.

          • Obvious

            Rossi indicated that the plant normally works with the doors closed.

            “What do you mean? We have not to step over plumbing and cabling with the plant in operation. Maybe I am not understanding. Can you rephrase? When the plant is operating all the doors are closed, nobody has to stay inside. We monitor everuthing from the computers.”
            – JoNP February 18, 2015

          • Ged

            Hm, not sure what he means by no body has to stay inside. The warehouse or the plant’s container?

          • Obvious

            The container, presumably.
            Here is the “question” he is answering.

            “I congratulate you on your E-Cat 1 MW plant design.
            May I suggest, in the next generation, you use a raised grating floor in the shipping container so you do not have to step over your plumbing and cabling.”

          • He meant people don’t stay in the plant container, normally, during operation.

            He had another post where he said he goes in there sometimes to ‘listen’ and it’s pretty toasty, but nothing he can’t deal with for a short time.

          • Bruce__H

            1 MW is not an amount of energy, it is a rate of energy delivery. It is 1 million Joules of energy being delivered per second. After 1 second there is 1 million Joules sitting there and, if that energy is not led away, after 2 seconds there will be 2 million Joules and so on.

            So the answer to where does 1 MW of heat go must be answered. You can’t just wave away physics.

          • Bruce__H

            “The outside temperature can be only a few degrees above room temperature if the insulation R values is high enough”

            What is your reasoning here? As far a I can see it isn’t true at steady state. The only thing the insulation alters is the time constant for approach to steady state but since the plant is running 24/7 I think we can assume that everything is running at steady state.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            Bruce,

            It is certainly true at steady state. Think about a dewar of liquid nitrogen. The inside temperature is 77 degrees Kelvin. The outside is at room temperature or slightly below, around 300 Kelvin. You can pick the dewar up without freezing your hand.

            At equilibrium (actually, it is never quite at equilibrium because it is losing nitrogen), the rate of boil-off is determined by the thermal conduction through the dewar walls.

            You seem to be confused about where the thermal energy generated by the LENR reaction is going. It is primarily going into the steam from boiling off the water. The touch temperature of the boiler case is immaterial, assuming it is reasonably well insulated.

          • Bruce__H

            You are right. I most certainly am confused about where the claimed thermal energy of the LENR reaction is going!. Once it is turned into steam from boiling off the water, then where does it go?

        • MikeP

          At equilibrium, 1 MW needs to reach the outside air. One advantage of a tall space is that heat concentrates at the top. Air in Florida is generally quite humid. Assuming a 2% water vapor concentration and the temperature at the peak is 20 C above outdoors (attics often get that hot or hotter – also remember that one is averaging day and night), then only about 0.6 kg/s of air needs to be vented to the outside at equilibrium. This represents about 0.5 cubic meters of air per second. A roof vent fan from Home Depot can achieve this. I would think that a commercial roof vent fan would have no trouble …

          • Obvious

            I think there is something wrong with those calculations.
            We have 1 million Joules per second to move by a fan to maintain equilibrium.

          • Ged

            We do have the advantage of natural hot-air-rises convection currents independent of any human intervention, but I don’t know how to calculate that yet. I’ll put it in the queue…

          • MikeP

            A Joule is not very big … the heat capacity of humid air is about 80 kJ / kg / dev C. So a 10 degree difference and about 1.2 kg per cubic meter of air means about 1 cubic meter per second needs to be vented. At a 20 degree difference about half a cubic meter per second.

          • Obvious

            I did things a bit different. Remember that the air is coming in with a certain heat value. So I did two cases: one where the ambient was 20°C, and the outflow was 40°C, and the second where air in was 30°C and outflow was 40°C .

            What I did was calculate all of the heat for each T separately, then subtracted the enthalpy of the lower heat from the higher heat, to get the difference.
            I ended up with 40 m^3/s for the 40-20°C one, and 79.8 m^3/s for the 40-30°C case.

            These are 84618 cfm for the first, and 169237 cfm for the second case.

            A 60″ industrial fan of several hp can move about 120000 cfm

          • Ged

            I enjoy some of the examples in this page just thrown up there.

            http://m.industrialfansdirect.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.industrialfansdirect.com%2F&utm_referrer=#2600

            Some of these roof vents they market can output some really impressive CFM. The sales pitch on the page is also fun, though it is interesting they say a combined intake/exhaust system should have 5 times the CFM in exhausting power compared to intake to prevent blowing things like contaminants around.

          • MikeP

            You’re right, I messed up the first number …

  • Can any and all the pics from that doral location that we have access to be put here in this thread? Where are the bay doors and what do the office section look like? the customer’s section is big imo.

    EDIT: I see where the bay doors are now – in the top pic on the pdf. Wow the “office” is at the other end then?… really small space enclosed on the right side, and sticking up, in black?

    • wpj

      Go to the LENR forum to see them.

      You needd to look on the web for listings for these units to see the office environment, which looks down on the warehouse space (but not in this case)

      • ok, but then I will need a shower.

      • Obvious

        Two words in Google Images will reveal all of the 7861 unit photos I had, at the top of the page. If everyone hits that site hard, where they are, they might get suspicious (because they are old) and pull the page.
        I suppose thems the breaks…
        Save the full size photos if you find it, just in case.
        They might have the original full resolution photos available, if someone asks nicely.
        But they might tell one to take a hike, too.

        I have seen no office space photos for this unit, BTW.

  • Rossi is way out on a limb with that story. However, if he can show that the dark container housed a simulated load with logging facilities he might just get away with it.

  • gameover

    Maybe on the black box side there is a secret E-Cat prototype which destroys energy instead of producing energy? Why assume that LENR is only about excess heat after all? I think this is the only way Rossi could have got rid of all the heat that was supposed to be generated.

  • JustSayin

    If the customer was using an endothermic process, there would be little to no heat escaping into the environment.

    • wpj

      Jed has said that there is no such process, so it must be rubbish (I have been a chemist for many, many years and would not be able to say that with any certainty!)

    • My2c

      Guys, get real!
      No way that any major chemical corporation would setup and operate a production facility in a WAREHOUSE, inside a premise which Permanent Occupancy Permit is just “S2” – storage of low harzad goods.
      Here the Permanent Occupancy Permit for the Property Address 7861 NW 46 ST:
      http://was8exp.miamidade.gov/certificatInqWeb/getCertificateByProcessDataView.do?processNumber=H2005016606

      And in case you want to know what “S2” means, check this code: http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001%20Florida%20Codes/Building/Chapter%203_Occupancy%20Classification.pdf

      • peacelovewoodstock

        This was not a production facility, it was a test facility.

        Also the Florida Building Codes doc that you reference includes “Portions of Group S occupancy involving highly combustible, flammable, or explosive products or materials shall be properly ventilated, protected and separated from the rest of the building in accordance with the appropriate NFPA Standard … “

        • Michael W Wolf

          The skeptics will say anything and call it a fact. Just like IH is doing.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            Actually, like Michael is doing here.

            The whole point of the Doral installation as pitched by Rossi (Exhibit 16) and per the Term Sheet (Exhibit 17).

            [16] I really and strongly hope you will consider the solution I found, to rent it to JM, in its factory in Florida where they will use it to process their chemical products.

            [17] “JMC operates a production facility.”

            Once the plant was there, Rossi then treated it as a test. There is no evidence yet in the record to support his claim that this was the Guaranteed Performance Test. Certainly, I assume, there was no written agreement, as required, for this (or Rossi would have asserted that crucial document). Rossi attempted to establish it by implication, not straightforwardly, but there is no evidence visible, so far, that IH consented to this, as required even for estoppel on the matter of consent. They consented to a power sale and monitoring of it, and Rossi had set it up so that they would not, in the face, care seriously about making sure the measurements were accurate, since they were being paid according to what the customer claimed to use. Free money. (I.e., some return on their already considerable investment.)

        • My2c

          Check Exhibit 17. Clause 2 states that JMC operates a production facility (not a “test” facility).
          If this “JMC production facility” would be a chemical plant, it would not only require some Group F or Group H building code (instead of S2), but also plenty of other operation permits.

          And the amount of hazardous material allowed to be STORED (not processed) in a S2 building is very limited. Check in the code clause 308.2.2 and table 308.2A/B.

      • Obvious

        This is still my favorite:

  • wpj

    Jed has said that there is no such process, so it must be rubbish (I have been a chemist for many, many years and would not be able to say that with any certainty!)

  • wpj

    Go to the LENR forum to see them.

    You needd to look on the web for listings for these units to see the office environment, which looks down on the warehouse space (but not in this case)

    • So…

      If there’s a door sized hole from the warehouse section to the office section…

      …and the office section is air conditioned (I assume)…

      …does that change the heat escape equation at all for skeptics?

      • Obvious

        Sure it would, if they broke all of the front windows. And put a monster fan in that hole.

        • Couldn’t the air conditioner remove a fair amount of the heat, even if the space was completely air tight (which of course it would not be)?

          • Obvious

            Air flow. That is the whole conundrum in a nutshell.

          • Ged

            Used some calculators to try to get at this by turning MW into btu/h and the to cfm at atmospheric pressure, and I got roughly 21k cfm needed. I do not know if this is right, but I posted the number below.

            If we can guess on the cfm of the big hanging fans and the vents, we could approximate the percentage of cooling available by air flow. Of course, that will just be replacing the air with new unheated air that starts at the temp of intake I guess.

          • Obvious

            Well, we will just have to see if the story, according to Mr. Weaver, holds together. Probably during Discovery.

            Cobwebs on the intake fan, skylight sealed shut. One hanging fan broken, the other blows a fuse after a few minutes. (According to DW)

          • Ged

            That would be pretty hilarious if so. Like a haunted house full of the spirits of long departed (e)cats. The new pictures unfortunately don’t or can’t reveal any of that as far as I can see.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Ged,

            Then factor in the amount of waste hot and moist air that would exit via this new min 6in in diameter vent piping system.

            Then add in the 4tf dia ceiling vent/fan above the JMP plant and I suggest there is no real heat issue inside the warehouse.
            .

      • Christoph

        What about the full height overhead doors?

        • Yeah I’ve already pointed out in some earlier threads that all they had to do when (if) it got too hot was to open up the loading bay doors.

          For all we know they left them open or partially open most of the time since it was manned 24/7.

          But I’m curious to see if the possible presence of an air conditioner and a larger space moves some skeptics off of their broiling engineers theory.

      • Engineer48

        Hi LenrG,

        I doubt that is a door as there are no safety railings.

        More likely it is an exhaust from the JMP plant that directs some of the waste heat at the ceiling exhaust fan just above and to the left of it.
        .

        • That was my initial impression, but now I’m not sure. The lines are almost too clean and the angles are what would be expected if it’s on the wall. Plus if the factory vent were cylindrical we could expect to see some hint of the middle being higher than the sides from the perspective of the camera.

          Because it’s likely the picture was taken as the plant was being readied, a door cut-in might not have the rails or stairs put in yet.

          Can you use your image software and skills to take a closer look?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Lenr,

            If it was a door, there would be safety rails and there are none.
            .

    • Obvious

      Two words in Google Images will reveal all of the 7861 unit photos I had, at the top of the page. If everyone hits that site hard, where they are, they might get suspicious (because they are old) and pull the page.
      I suppose thems the breaks…
      Save the full size photos if you find it, just in case.
      They might have the original full resolution photos available, if someone asks nicely.
      But they might tell one to take a hike, too.

      I have seen no office space photos for this unit, BTW.

  • So…

    If there’s a door sized hole from the warehouse section to the office section…

    …and the office section is air conditioned (I assume)…

    …does that change the heat escape equation at all for skeptics?

    • Obvious

      Sure it would, if they broke all of the front windows. And put a monster fan in that hole.

      • Couldn’t the air conditioner remove a fair amount of the heat, even if the space was completely air tight (which of course it would not be)?

        • Obvious

          Air flow. That is the whole conundrum in a nutshell.

          • Ged

            Used some calculators to try to get at this by turning MW into btu/h and the to cfm at atmospheric pressure, and I got roughly 21k cfm needed. I do not know if this is right, but I posted the number below.

            If we can guess on the cfm of the big hanging fans and the vents, we could approximate the percentage of cooling available by air flow. Of course, that will just be replacing the air with new unheated air that starts at the temp of intake I guess.

          • Obvious

            Well, we will just have to see if the story, according to Mr. Weaver, holds together. Probably during Discovery.

            Cobwebs on the intake fan, skylight sealed shut. One hanging fan broken, the other blows a fuse after a few minutes. (According to DW)

          • Ged

            That would be pretty hilarious if so. Like a haunted house full of the spirits of long departed (e)cats. The new pictures unfortunately don’t or can’t reveal any of that as far as I can see.

          • Bruce__H

            If these reports turn out to be from credible witnesses would it change your view of the situation?

          • Ged

            Of course. I only follow and care about the data. So far it is insufficient to rule if IH or Rossi are in the right or wrong. But that could very easily change with the right data. Discovery will sift the wheat from the chaff.

            Hearsay isn’t solely enough for me however, which is why I remain skeptical of even the reports from Mats’ witnesses too, until more info emerges. Only way to break a witness vs witness battle is with hard evidence.

          • roseland67

            Bruce,
            Replication by multiple sources, (outside the Rossi cadre), of
            Energy Out > Energy In would change my view.
            Like if Fermi, Argonne, NASA, ABB, GE, come out and say, “we tested it and The Ecat works as stated”.

          • roseland67

            Close enough,
            Maybe add heat of compression from the blowers, guess at maybe 1/10 ton/hp?

          • Ged

            I am not sure, and think the calculation is much too low, due to subtle differences in units [Edit2: I tried the calculation another way using Tons of Air Conditioning instead of BTU/h, and still ended up close to the same with 23k CFM; something funky with the way these units are working; Edit3: but if I use HVAC rule of thumb for residential cooling parameters instead of direct conversion, I get 120k CFM needed]. Standard 30′ fans with 1 HP can output 10k CFM or more, so 21k CFM of needed cooling power would be trivial at best.

            Using cooling rules for (insulated; while the warehouse isn’t, so these values are a little higher than our case here) computer server rooms, which use upwards of 10 MW of power in a 30k square foot space, it seems one would need 154k CFM for a 20 F inlet/outlet difference when dissipating 1 MW of heat; close though a little higher than Obvious’ calculations using air heat capacity and density. http://tileflow.com/assets/files/tileflow/TF06-Heatload_cfm.pdf

            Good roof exhaust vents put out 75k of CFM (more with more HP of course), and bigger 60′ ones can do 120k+ as Obvious noted, so air cooling can handle 1 MW (or 50 MW as in the largest data centers), and it seems we do have enough available fan slots and sizes to accomplish this at the site.

            It is doable, but doesn’t mean it was done. But people claiming it could not be done are wrong.

            Fun little read on modeling heat for those 10 MW consuming data centers http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/papers/2002/thermal_may02.pdf

            Edit: another discussion of cooling in data centers http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2011/05/19/airflow-issues-silent-enemy-of-efficient-cooling/. They have to deal with much worst than we see here, so they seem like a quick reference guide for our needs. Once again, 120,000-160,000 CFM is what would be required for 1 MW dissipation, depending on airflow layout it seems, according to this source. So, we have generally converged around that range in my reading. Still looking around to try to get this pinned down to my satisfaction.

          • roseland67

            What was the air temperature delta t you were using between exhaust and make up?
            Cfm should increase linearly with change in temp if energy stays the same no?

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            I could be done, I suspect, but … not without much more equipment or measures than shown. The claim in the Answer is not that it couldn’t be done, but:

            “Murray also recognized that the building in which the Plant was located had no method to ventilate the heat that would be produced by the Plant were it producing the amount of steam claimed by Rossi, Leonardo, and Penon such that persons would not have been able to work in the building if the Rossi/Leonardo/Penon claims were true.”

            Rossi can claim they are lying all he wants, but … Murray will presumably testify in court to what is in the Answer. And unless that is rebutted, it will stand, “testimony is presumed true unless controverted.”

          • roseland67

            GED,
            More hp will not generate more airflow
            A larger fan/blower impeller run at the same speed will
            Move more Cfm and require more hp to do this work.
            Similar to pumps, running a 3.5″ impeller diameter
            At 3600 rpm will generate X flow and require Y hp at z pressure.
            Putting a 10Y hp motor on The same pump, (fan), run at the same speed
            Will generate the Same amount of flow.
            It will simply be a grossly underused motor

          • Engineer48

            Hi Ged,

            Then factor in the amount of waste hot and moist air that would exit via this new min 6in in diameter vent piping system.

            Then add in the 4tf dia ceiling vent/fan above the JMP plant and I suggest there is no real heat issue inside the warehouse.
            .

    • Christoph

      What about the full height overhead doors?

      • Yeah I’ve already pointed out in some earlier threads that all they had to do when (if) it got too hot was to open up the loading bay doors.

        For all we know they left them open or partially open most of the time since it was manned 24/7.

        But I’m curious to see if the possible presence of an air conditioner and a larger space moves some skeptics off of their broiling engineers theory.

    • Engineer48

      Hi LenrG,

      I doubt that is a door as there are no safety railings.

      More likely it is an exhaust from the JMP plant that directs some of the waste heat at the ceiling exhaust fan just above and to the left of it.
      .

      • That was my initial impression, but now I’m not sure. The lines are almost too clean and the angles are what would be expected if it’s on the wall. Plus if the factory vent were cylindrical we could expect to see some hint of the middle being higher than the sides from the perspective of the camera.

        Because it’s likely the picture was taken as the plant was being readied, a door cut-in might not have the rails or stairs put in yet.

        Can you use your image software and skills to take a closer look?

        • Engineer48

          Hi Lenr,

          If it was a door, there would be safety rails and there are none.
          .

  • Ged

    Dunno yet, I started the calculations on that if one uses convective cooling such as with fans, but I haven’t had time to finish the conversions to real world. Here are the numbers if they help:

    1 MW is 3,414,425.94972 btu/hour, and that seems to equal 20,925.72 atmosphere cfm of fan cooling, or roughly 9.85 m^3/s of air flow to completely remove it all (not sure at all how different air temps affect this, or if that doesn’t matter since this is a complete replacement of the MW containing air?). It is more complex than this as there are other heat transfer modes than just air flow, but it’s a start; need the numbers double checked.

    This has a nice looking guide, though its JavaScript is broken on my device: http://m.industrialfansdirect.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.industrialfansdirect.com%2FCFM_Calculator.html&utm_referrer=#2827

    Most standard size fans I am finding are in the 3k cfm range, in which case you would need around 7 or so to fully keep that place cool, but the fans in the pic are much bigger than what I have found so far, and might be 5k cfm a pop.

    This is definitely solveable, I just don’t have the time at this exact minute, but maybe you or others can solve it the rest of the way.

  • The only way to get a true idea about the heat situation is calculation. Claiming things, without backing it up with math, is just game play to convince non-engineers.
    Yet I like Torkel Nyberg/Sifferkoll’s rule of thumb for saunas:

    “Rule of thumb for a well insulated sauna is about 1kW per m³ to be able to heat it to ~90⁰C. Adding 1 m³ per every m² of window or other not so well insulated areas. And as everyone who ever used a sauna the heat in it is very dependent on people not running in and out the door all the time ‘Don’t let the heat out!’ ”

    Edit: In a sauna, of course, we are talking about a non-insulated heat source.

    • Ged

      So far from the preliminary math I did below it looks plausible to cool a significant portion or all of the place with the fans we see. I need to finish some double checking though before I can make tentative conclusions on requirements, and see if anyone else calculates the same or corrects me. Any other absorbers in the heat budget would greatly lower the airflow cooling demand as well, so this is a complicated question.

      Thank you for the sense of scale with that rule of thumb.

    • Mats002

      I would love to see tyy alias Timo (he is from Finland and know saunas) to make that calculation! All the numbers are available.

    • Alain Samoun

      90⁰C! These Swedes really like the heat 😉

    • Optimist

      So Mats. Based on what you already know and have seen, how long would you guess that it takes until RossI has a viable product to demonstrate? Months or years?

    • sam

      Mats
      Take One sharp security
      guard that was working at the Ecat test site and ask them a few
      questions.
      They might give a better idea about whether the Ecat worked
      than engineers.data,lawyers,
      Scientists and any other expert
      including M.Y.
      Regards
      Sam

      • Ok. Where do I find this security guard?

        • sam

          I got to thinking that they might have had to sign an
          NDA also.
          But one of them might leak the story to National Enquirer.

  • oh, is the office space behind the unfinished drywall in the Exhibit 26’s bottom pic?

    • Discussed at the beginning of the comments here below.

    • wpj

      It’s not unfinished; it has been covered so that the area cannot be seen.

      • Obvious

        It has been like that (unfinished/unpainted drywall(?)) since at least February 2014.

        • wpj

          OK, my mistake. It certainly looks that way. Must have been left like that when bought in 2014.

  • oh, is the office space behind the unfinished drywall in the Exhibit 26’s bottom pic?

    • Discussed at the beginning of the comments here below.

    • wpj

      It’s not unfinished; it has been covered so that the area cannot be seen.

      • Obvious

        It has been like that (unfinished/unpainted drywall(?)) since at least February 2014.

        • wpj

          OK, my mistake. It certainly looks that way. Must have been left like that when bought in 2014.

      • bad choice of words on my part. is the office hidden space behind this floor to ceiling wall of drywall?

        https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65193431/drywall%20at%20doral.PNG

        • Engineer48

          Hi EEStor,

          Yes the office space is behind that walling section.

          Fairly standard way to create office space as most warehouses have a small 2 story office area at the front that is divided from the rear warehouse section.

          As both Obvious and Rossi explained, the door from the office area to the warehouse is inside the JMP production area, so IH folks visiting the office and then the reactor had to walk around the building and enter the reactor area via the rear stairs and to then see this signage as they entered the reactor area via the read door.

          You can see the rear entry door in this pre ECat install photo of 7861 46th Doral.
          .

          • Engineer48

            BTW Obvious did a good job in laying out the plant. Only issue I have is the 2 red containers need to move down so the smaller container is near the lower wall as I believe the heat exchange resides between the larger ECat container and the upper wall. Plus the interconnecting pipes run behind the red reactor container and in front of the black customer production unit as can be seen in the attached image.

            Please note the image evidence supports that neither of the pipes to the customer enter either end of the reactor container which is way I have assumed the heat exchanger is placed where I have drawn it.
            .

          • Engineer48

            Pipes run in front of customer black production and behind the red reactor container.

          • Thanks! where on the overhead plan is pic one in this 3 photo series? meaning what direction is the camera operator facing and where is he/she standing?

  • peacelovewoodstock

    This was not a production facility, it was a test facility.

    Also the Florida Building Codes doc that you reference includes “Portions of Group S occupancy involving highly combustible, flammable, or explosive products or materials shall be properly ventilated, protected and separated from the rest of the building in accordance with the appropriate NFPA Standard … “

  • Thomas Kaminski

    As to the question “Where does the 1MW of thermal energy rate go?”, there are a number of variables:

    1). What fraction is absorbed by a endothermic (requiring heat) process,
    2). What fraction is exhausted to the outside though mass flow, and,
    3). What fraction is conducted through losses in the building envelope?

    Previously, it has been calculated that if the process simply exhausted steam to the outside, a small diameter pipe could easily exhaust the entire energy. See for example, the steam pipe diameter between the E-Cat and the “customer” side. Case solved.

    More likely the case is that 1) above absorbs some of the heat. The process the “customer” uses will likely require some regeneration of chemical tanks. Let’s say that the process evaporates water to regenerate the chemical. How much water must be evaporated to match the 1 MW heat flux? Answer: About the same amount that was turned to steam in the E-Cat plus some more to cool the return fluid down to 60C. Case solved.

    What about the building envelope? This is all “extra” in that is can deal with some fraction of the generated heat. See Mats Lewan’s “sauna rules” below. Maybe case solved.

    For an example of what is feasible, the Google Earth picture below is from the University of Wisconsin Co-Generation plant. It produces 160 Megawatts of electric power at about a 50% efficiency rating. Assuming that half that goes up the stack, there is still 80MW of heat — plus about another 40MW of heat or so from chilled water air conditioning being rejected by the facility. Think about that — 120MW of heat…. And you think getting 1MW (or less) is hard to do?

    • Guru Khalsa

      I got two more possibles for you though I am not an engineer.
      What fraction is converted to work in some agitation process?
      What fraction goes down the drain in some washing process?

  • Thomas Kaminski

    As to the question “Where does the 1MW of thermal energy rate go?”, there are a number of variables:

    1). What fraction is absorbed by a endothermic (requiring heat) process,
    2). What fraction is exhausted to the outside though mass flow, and,
    3). What fraction is conducted through losses in the building envelope?

    Previously, it has been calculated that if the process simply exhausted steam to the outside, a small diameter pipe could easily exhaust the entire energy. See for example, the steam pipe diameter between the E-Cat and the “customer” side. Case solved.

    More likely the case is that 1) above absorbs some of the heat. The process the “customer” uses will likely require some regeneration of chemical tanks. Let’s say that the process evaporates water to regenerate the chemical. How much water must be evaporated to match the 1 MW heat flux? Answer: About the same amount that was turned to steam in the E-Cat plus some more to cool the return fluid down to 60C. Case solved.

    What about the building envelope? This is all “extra” in that is can deal with some fraction of the generated heat. See Mats Lewan’s “sauna rules” below. Maybe case solved.

    For an example of what is feasible, the Google Earth picture below is from the University of Wisconsin Co-Generation plant. It produces 160 Megawatts of electric power at about a 50% efficiency rating. Assuming that half that goes up the stack, there is still 80MW of heat — plus about another 40MW of heat or so from chilled water air conditioning being rejected by the facility. Think about that — 120MW of heat…. And you think getting 1MW (or less) is hard to do?

    • Guru Khalsa

      I got two more possibles for you though I am not an engineer.
      What fraction is converted to work in some agitation process?
      What fraction goes down the drain in some washing process?

    • Bruce__H

      Thomas Kaminski: “Let’s say that the process evaporates water to regenerate the chemical. How much water must be evaporated to match the 1 MW heat flux? Answer: About the same amount that was turned to steam in the E-Cat plus some more to cool the return fluid down to 60C. Case solved.”

      I don’t understand. Where did the heat in the evaporated water end up?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        The heat is in the evaporated water.
        .

        • Bruce__H

          I understand. I am asking Thomas Kaminski where that heat ended up. The way he has written his explanation it sounds as though he thinks that the evaporation of water has ‘used up’ the heat from the ecat.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            The heat could have been exhausted through a roof vent. Hot, moist, air carries a lot of energy. As I mentioned earlier, the steam flow could be piped directly out. Higher flows can be generated with an inexpensive exhaust fan like the attic fan posted below.

          • Bruce__H

            I agree.

  • Ged

    Of course. I only follow and care about the data. So far it is insufficient to rule if IH or Rossi are in the right or wrong. But that could very easily change with the right data. Discovery will sift the wheat from the chaff.

    Hearsay isn’t solely enough for me however, which is why I remain skeptical of even the reports from Mats’ witnesses too, until more info emerges. Only way to break a witness vs witness battle is with hard evidence.

  • Gerard McEk

    Does making sponges take a lot of low temperature heat and is it endothermic?

    • wpj

      90C, several hours. May need repeating if it is honeycomb type. Hot wash after a few times. May need to concentrate liquors as well, possibly with some vacuum (this takes a lot of heat).

      • Leaching of aluminium by NaOH in solution is exothermic, and so is diluting NaOH concentrate solution to a working concentration. Tanks designed for these processes are fitted with cooling pipes to keep the temperature within the optimum range (80-85C). Only hot washes and/or evaporative concentration of waste liquors would require significant heat input. However there seems to be no evidence of any means of transferring materials in or out of the enclosure.

        • wpj

          That is true for the fine Raney type catalysts, but not for the honeycomb types where you are dealing with chunks of alloy rather than fine powder; because of the small surface area they require a lot of heating and replacing of the caustic and repeating the process (so called “multiple boil” procedure).

          Sorry, but dilution of 50% caustic is not exothermic- certainly formation of the solution from solid is, but 40-50% caustic solutions are generated form the chlor-alkali process directly.

          I don’t believe that the fine catalysts could be made in such a plant as it would be far too hazardous- the fine stuff can go up very easily if it dries out (people used to do this in lab a lot during my PhD years as a joke- this was pre-health and safety).

        • wpj

          From JM’s site of waste reduction in this process

          The question of multiple boils was next to be reviewed as processes were optimised. The team found that the number of sodium hydroxide boils could be cut by half for one product, significantly reducing the amount of manual operation.

  • Gerard McEk

    Does making sponges take a lot of low temperature heat and is it endothermic?

    • wpj

      90C, several hours. May need repeating if it is honeycomb type. Hot wash after a few times. May need to concentrate liquors as well, possibly with some vacuum (this takes a lot of heat).

      • Bruce__H

        Endothermic?

        • JedRothwell

          I repeat: no endothermic industrial process uses more than a tiny fraction of the heat. The rest is waste heat. That is why bakeries are hot, even though baking is endothermic. Look up endothermic processes and you will see what I mean.

          • Bruce__H

            For chemical reactions I think it depends on the balance of the a) enthalpy of formation and b) the entropy difference between the reactants and products. In some endothermic reactions if the increase in entropy is large you don’t need a high temperature to make the reaction go forward. I think in these cases the waste heat is less than for other situations although I don’t have a feeling for how much less.

            Do you know if there is a lower bound on the ratio of waste heat to captured heat in these situations?

          • Ged

            Well, technically there doesn’t have to be a lower bound per se, and saying endothermic only takes a small percentage of the heat supplied is false; mostly due to over simplification. Take melting ice for example. For as long as it is phase changing, if the heat supplied does not exceed the thermal conductivity of the ice/water mix, all will be absorbed with no appreciable “waste” heat, thus keeping the temperature static. This is why phase change materials are so interesting for heat energy storage, and some experimental ones can store crazy amounts of heat per kg.

            The same is basically true for chemical reactions. If the heat supply rate is high enough to overcome energy of activation, but not higher than the kinetic rate constant and negative enthalpy magnitude (rate constant is somewhat temp dependent, so there will only be a small temp range sweet spot that may or may not be possible to hit depending on the rate and enthalpy constants in question), then all the heat will be absorbed with no meaningful “waste” (heat that escapes).

            High temps where only a fraction of the heat is absorbed is done on that the rate constant of the reaction is jacked up for fast production and more profit/time (constrained bungie costs of the over heating of course).

            I don’t know of the reactions done at these temperature domains, but not -all- the heat rate needs absorption anyways in this case. The chemists around here seem to say there are some appropriate reactions, and a complex chain of them would absorb the most heat (two stage synthesis reactions can take a lot of heat input to run). Polymers are one of the best synthesis for w/kg loads reasonable for the space and energy available. But I have no way of confirming or denying that possibility with what we see–only that it can’t be ice melting or something with an equally low W/kg density as there would be no way to move enough material (particularly if not liquid and nontoxic). Also, the space is rated to only store a small amount of hazardous material, so that must factor in to any proposals as well.

          • wpj

            Yes, if we believe the Bass figures (giving COP 10-20) and Rossi COP 50, then about 60% would be vented/wasted.

          • Obvious

            That was an energy requirement cost savings, not a COP figure from Bass. How would Bass or JMP know what the COP of the power going in was? So a bit trickier to work out. One could probably safety assume they used electricity before Rossi (in this fantasy) since there is no gas being used AFAIK, and they simply turn up their power when the 1MW plant makes 3/4 MW.

          • wpj

            It was stated long ago that gas was used by these people for the process in their own plant. Maybe my saying their COP equivalent of 20 was not correct, but Mats L’s contact says that the energy usage per unit of product was one twentieth. We also know that one of the bills had COP 24 written on it as people saw this before Mats removed it from his blog. I am making the assumption that these people saw the electric bill and were able to make the comparison.

          • Obvious

            I think I saved a copy of the bill. I will look.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Yes Please do and post.
            .

          • Obvious

            Can’t find it. Maybe I never saw it. It is the sort of thing I would save right away if I did.

      • Leaching of aluminium by NaOH in solution is exothermic, and so is diluting NaOH concentrate solution to a working concentration. Tanks designed for these processes are fitted with cooling pipes to keep the temperature within the optimum range (80-85C). Only hot washes and/or evaporative concentration of waste liquors would require significant heat input. However there seems to be no evidence of any means of transferring materials in or out of the enclosure.

        • wpj

          That is true for the fine Raney type catalysts, but not for the honeycomb types where you are dealing with chunks of alloy rather than fine powder; because of the small surface area they require a lot of heating and replacing of the caustic and repeating the process (so called “multiple boil” procedure).

          Sorry, but dilution of 50% caustic is not exothermic- certainly formation of the solution from solid is, but 40-50% caustic solutions are generated form the chlor-alkali process directly.

          I don’t believe that the fine catalysts could be made in such a plant as it would be far too hazardous- the fine stuff can go up very easily if it dries out (people used to do this in lab a lot during my PhD years as a joke- this was pre-health and safety).

        • wpj

          From JM’s site of waste reduction in this process

          The question of multiple boils was next to be reviewed as processes were optimised. The team found that the number of sodium hydroxide boils could be cut by half for one product, significantly reducing the amount of manual operation.

  • Ged

    Well, not really. It would not make visible plumes either. A plume is from hot, high absolute humidity, saturated air hitting much cooler air below the relative humidity (dew point) of the hot air. The exhausted air here would have started with the same absolute humidity as the atmosphere it vents to, so there would never be a plume unless there was a significant fluid leak to increase absolute humidity inside the structure.

    Anyways, I don’t think IR cameras pick up air all that well, particularly if moving. I would have to look at this more closely though. The roof does look like it has exhaust heat damage in the characteristic pattern of such, but who knows when it occurred.

  • Rod

    The black exhaust pipe in the middle of the customer factory looks like it is actually venting exhaust. You’ll need to zoom in to 800% in the PDF to see this. Maybe there is something really getting made over there 🙂

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      Great demonstration of seeing what one looks for. At this point, the steam supply pipe has been removed, this photo was taken after the Plant was shut down.

  • timycelyn

    I smell a shill….

  • Steve Savage

    I just stumbled upon the following facts (can’t say how, but important people who may or may not be all buried in miles of NDA agreements told me) …. There has been a huge mistake. JM Chemical Products is not the correct name, it has now been changed by IH team of lawyers and scribes in the court documents (well maybe not yet, but I am sure it will be soon … keep checking). The real name is JM Cowmical Products… You can see the font skewing on the o and the w … right ? Now, not many people know this, but a Cowmical is a whole boiled cow. The cow comes into the process as a whole frozen cow. The physics and engineering on this is solid, or perhaps plasma, not really sure, but anyway, all the charts and tables tell the real story, it takes exactly 1 hour to boil a frozen cow using … you guessed it, 1MW of continuous energy delivered trough a partition. It must be delivered through a partition or it doesn’t count, Einstein was very clear on this point but I think Newton may have disagreed. So 24 hours in a day … 1 MW … cow boiling 1 per hour = 24 boiled cows per day, the process is complete. et voila .. no excess heat.

    • Guru Khalsa

      But sometimes they overcook it and it gets burned and that’s how they make chocolate milk.

      • Steve Savage

        That’s insider information and very confidential, I’m shocked that you shared that with everybody. I sense fraud and corruption, it jail for you my friend, jail I say.

        • Ged

          Everyone knows chocolate milk comes from artificial cows, and vinyl too.

          • Engineer48

            How to get rid of some of the JMP waste heat.

            For sure a min diameter 6in metal pipe system, complete with a water trap at the bottom of the vertical section of the pipe is what this new piping is there for.

            Note that the sat images of the roof do not show this new roof vent, so that is why we missed it earlier.

            Thanks to IH for giving us engineers the images we needed to understand how JMP exited some of their waste heat as hot and moist air, which would not cause an external white steam plume.

            The 4ft dia ceiling exhaust fan, above the JMP production area, would take care of the rest that did not exit via the new roof vent.

            As attached.
            .

          • Obvious

            I think they just tied into the existing vent. Shiny new horizontal, and old dirty vertical.

            I’ll see if I have any images of the back wall from one of the other units that might have some clues.

          • Good analysis. Forced hot air ejection via 6/8″ metal pipes (suggesting relatively high temps that might soften uPVC) would probably be enough, but an evaporative component would reduce required ejection flow rates.

          • Ged

            Hm, honestly, that big black power cable from the customer device to the wall is one of the most mysterious reveals to me. The entire rental space has an energy budget we track by the grid use, so power taken by the customer is power taken away from the 1 MW plant within the budget envelope (ratios of the total; would lower the apparent COP of the plant somewhat if using Grid to judge). If instead power is being made and fed back to the Grid, that could actually over inflate the COP of the 1 MW plant if one just measures from the Grid (still a high positive COP since electrical conversion is not 100% efficient). If the COP was based on the input at the plant it wouldn’t be affected by either case though.

          • Obvious

            Seems overly complicated to me.

          • Ged

            Definitely not a fully mature or supported idea at the moment, nor necessary.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Ged,

            JMP still needs electricity to run it’s systems plus 1MW of heat. I bet there are a few motors involved and maybe some electrical based low level heating.

          • roseland67

            Agaric us,

            Most building owners are NOT going to let people punch holes in their roofs for testing, walls maybe, but not roofs.
            I suspect heat removal was accomplished via other means.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Roseland,

            Obvious suggested JMP tied in the new metal ducting into one of the existing roof vents but that begs the question as to how the existing toilet fan was exhausted. In Oz warehouse toilet fans exhaust into the warehouse space and do not vent to the roof.

            Then again, with enough money, the owner would agree to a new roof vent penetration.
            .

          • Obvious

            E48, I think (guessing) that the fan motor is right at the ceiling. That is cheaper and quieter. Two switches, one fan, one vent. No cross-flow.

          • roseland67

            48,

            Make up air then?
            Thru open garage doors?

      • Omega Z

        This is so much dribble.

        Everyone knows this is the source of CHOCOLATE MILK.

        http://www.pheasanttrek.com/images/2009/jun26/Red-cow.jpg

        And this can be the source of much embarrassment and pain

        http://image.123tagged.com/images/b/brown_cow-9338.JPG

    • Ophelia Rump

      For something which is supposed to be cowmical, that was not funny at all.

      • Steve Savage

        Are you sure, I know I chuckled a few times when I read it…. I mean Boiled Cows are at least a little bit funny.

        • Ged

          At least more amusing than cowboils, I would guess.

  • Steve Savage

    I just stumbled upon the following facts (can’t say how, but important people who may or may not be all buried in miles of NDA agreements told me) …. There has been a huge mistake. JM Chemical Products is not the correct name, it has now been changed by IH team of lawyers and scribes in the court documents (well maybe not yet, but I am sure it will be soon … keep checking). The real name is JM Cowmical Products… You can see the font skewing on the o and the w … right ? Now, not many people know this, but a Cowmical is a whole boiled cow. The cow comes into the process as a whole frozen cow. The physics and engineering on this is solid, or perhaps plasma, not really sure, but anyway, all the charts and tables tell the real story, it takes exactly 1 hour to boil a frozen cow using … you guessed it, 1MW of continuous energy delivered trough a partition. It must be delivered through a partition or it doesn’t count, Einstein was very clear on this point but I think Newton may have disagreed. So 24 hours in a day … 1 MW … cow boiling 1 per hour = 24 boiled cows per day, the process is complete. et voila .. no excess heat.

    • Guru Khalsa

      But sometimes they overcook it and it gets burned and that’s how they make chocolate milk.

    • Michael W Wolf

      And you wonder why skeptics have no credibility. This is a big joke to them, Libeling people, slandering, defaming, and not one that I know of ever takes it back, they just go somewhere else and begin the same drivel.

      • roseland67

        Michael,

        Nobody wonders why skeptics have no credibility, nobody cares.
        The only thing that skeptics wonder about is: Energy Out > Energy In.

        And so far were still wondering.

        • Michael W Wolf

          You can stop wondering, 50 COP. Next you’ll be saying there is no actual proof we went to the moon.

          • roseland67

            We went to the moon?
            Damn, how do I keep missing these things?
            But in the interim, I’ll keep wondering

      • Steve Savage

        Exactly

    • Ophelia Rump

      For something which is supposed to be cowmical, that was not funny at all.

      • Steve Savage

        Are you sure, I know I chuckled a few times when I read it…. I mean Boiled Cows are at least a little bit funny.

        • Ged

          At least more amusing than cowboils, I would guess.

        • Thor

          I thought it was kinda funny… Amusing at least.

  • Obvious

    This is still my favorite:

  • MikeP

    I think we all get conservation of energy … used means converted from heat to something else … however I’m not sure what you mean by dealt with … this could be in the form of mechanical removal through the door 🙂

  • JedRothwell

    What Rossi says makes no sense. It violates elementary physics and the conservation of energy.

    It is not possible to “use” all the heat. All endothermic industrial processes use only a tiny fraction of the heat. Backing bread is a good example. Nearly all of the heat ends up as waste heat, and it must be vented away.

    • Michael W Wolf

      IH calls this proof? Wait til Bass takes the stand. You guys are toast.

      • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

        If Bass takes the stand, and testifies to real process, this aspect of the IH defense is toast, but this is all secondary defense. If no agreement to a Guaranteed Performance Test, no payment due, no basis for lawsuit. Only if somehow IH screwed up and agreed to a test in a clearly inappropriate setting for that, then the secondary defense is of fraud.

        • Ged

          “no basis for lawsuit”

          And that is what the MTD already tested. They could try pitching it again to the Jury though. But at some point we really should move on.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            The MTD tested the situation of every claim that Rossi made being true, not the factual situation. Facts come out in the case and at some point, enough fact may exist to successfully make a Motion for Summary Judgment. The idea that the MTD made some sort of binding factual conclusion is not uncommon among those who have no understanding of what is going on, but with strong opinions held as fact. And, yes, if necessary fact remains in controversy, the jury will resolve it.

      • Obvious

        If Bass and “Advanced Derivatives of Johnson Mathew Platinum Sponges” are shown to be false, then it is possibly not IH they will have to worry about.

        JMAT are a billion+ dollar company that takes their reputation seriously.

        • Ged

          Oh yes. That would greatly liven up things. Wish Johnson Matthey would release some statement of yes or no, but this tiff may just not even reach acknowledgement status for them, yet.

          • Obvious

            How long do think it took before someone from IH made a phone call, or a polite email with a suggestion of meeting some representatives for dinner and a chat?

    • I agree (reluctantly). I believe Engineer48 has correctly identified the mechanism (recently fitted metal ducting carrying hot air out via a riser). As there doesn’t seem to be any visible means of bringing in production materials or taking away product and waste, a ‘simulation’ of a varying load using twin heat exchangers with logging facilities seems most likely. If so, then the ‘customer’ will be in possession of records that should verify Penon’s report.

      • wpj

        If you go back to what the actor known as James Bass said in his presentations, they claim that the process consumes on tenth to one twentieth the energy requirement of their other units producing this material.

        Rossi is claiming a COP of over 50, so (assuming these statements are true!) there was a considerable amount of heat that had to be vented to balance out these two figures. This was alluded to as it was claimed that the water returned at a higher temperature when there was no draw from the customer.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Hey E48 could be wrong, but the fact is that the claim from the detractors that that much heat could not be vented out if completely false.

        • Bruce__H

          I have not heard anyone say for quite a while that that much heat could not be vented out. About a month ago a number of us were doing calculations. The upshot was that 1 MW of heat could be vented out from the building as it is configured. I would expect the venting to be easily observed though and Jed Rothwell says that it couldn’t be seen while the plant was in operation.

      • Ged

        I think “used” just means the heat was sent from the plant to the customer. That is used from the plant’s point of view and returns cooler. We have seen no full pictures of the plant, so there could be a plant-side vent to get rid of heat not sent to the customer, like an emergency release if something went down customer side.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Agaricus,

        It is simple for JMP to have an elevatable platform that lifts up to the height of the wall and then a forklift from the reactor side deposits or removes goods from the elevated platform, which when the goods movements are completed, drops down so a forklift on the JMP side can move the goods on the platform as required.
        .

    • Michael W Wolf

      Cmon Jed. You are putting words in his mouth taking advantage of the language gap Rossi has.

      Andrea Rossi

      August 12, 2016 at 1:53 PM

      Frank Acland:

      1 The heat was used, not vented away from the Customer

      2 There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Guys,

    Just saw the new pictures.

    A few observations;

    The paint work on the walls looks new and there is no upper insulated pipe going over the wall, so I assume this image is early on during the installation.

    Weaver did say the adjacent warehouse unit was also used, so maybe that is how JMP gets access to bring in and remove product as clearly the visible white door in the grey wall is not wide enough for goods access.

    The black object seen above the wall may be part of the plant as I doubt an open door with no safety provisions, hand rails, etc would be allowed.

    While distance is hard to judge, the black upward object may be somewhat aligned with the exhaust ceiling fan in that area.

    There is a significant power feed cable into the JMP area.

    While the shot of the ceiling opening at the rear of the plant looks to be a vent, that function would not explain the staining pattern on the roof as attached.

    Suggest the metal piping to the roof is new and not imaged in the satellite images. I doubt it is related to toilets as they are already installed and would use plastic PVC pipe that is much smaller in diameter as against the new metal piping. You can see the old and painted toilet vent pipes to the left of the new metal piping. So I suggest the new metal piping is involved with the plant in some and it may be a vent to atmosphere for some of the plant processes. Being metal it may carry away some of the waste heat. I do note there is a trap at the bottom of the vertical metal pipe, so there may be moisture in what is being vented to the roof and that maybe sometimes it condenses on the side of the pipe and drains down the inside of the vertical section of the metal pipe. So another sign the new metal pipe is involved with the plant and it not a over the top toilet vent. Image attached.
    .

    • Engineer48

      That is a significant trap on the bottom of the vertical section of the metal pipe. I doubt this is a new toilet vent. As the satellite images show, this vent is newer than the sat images as they don’t show it.

      Maybe some of our plant engineers can speculate as to what it is?
      .

      • Billy Jackson

        because of the blurriness that potentially could be a water pipe for a sprinkler system

        • Engineer48

          Hi Billy,

          No sprinklers are visible on the roof.

          I estimate that pipe to be at least 6in in diameter, which I suggest is big enough to exhaust waste heat as warm/hot air through a new roof vent and why there is a steam trap at the bottom.

          So guys and girls, through that pipe is where some of the JMP waste heat as waste warm/ hot air, exits the building.

    • Obvious

      A vent to the atmosphere alright… One inline fan near the rooftop can silently suck the air out of two bathrooms, using a combined vent pipe. The other white pipe is the vent stack for the plumbing. They exit side by side on the rooftop.
      The Office bathroom, where the other end of the steel vent pipe goes, (from the T) has a vent stack for plumbing that exits in the middle of the rooftop.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Obivious,

        That new metal pipe is at least 6in in diameter and it has a steam/water trap at the bottom of the vertical section. That is NOT a toilet vent.

        PVC is used the exhausts toilets and it is not 6in in diamater,

        • Obvious

          It is not a toilet vent. It is for the bathroom fan.
          Try this:

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Now show the roof area for 7861. The new vent is not there.
            .

          • Obvious

            That is 7861

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Here is your image looking at the front.

            Notice the new metal piping system is NOT there.
            . https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/de52e53ae1e081d6c7272f5887e5ea3ea6332fcacae9f20f99a93da406c1adce.jpg

          • Obvious

            Pretty hard to tell from that one. If you squint, and think its there, then it looks like it is there. If you think it isn’t, then you can’t see it.
            I wouldn’t even think to judge by that photo. I’ve pumped the contrast, too, so it’s distorted more than you might think.

            Below is what it looked like new (to me).

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            That pipe is very shiny, it would show up but it does not.

            Nice try but no points this time.
            .

          • Obvious

            You are free to imagine what you like. But it should match up with known existing features, like the roof vents.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Post me the original. I have very good image processing software.

            BTW here is what I processed and that very shiny pipe is clearly NOT THERE. Squinting or not.

            Which means your roof images are out of date and do not show this new roof penetration.
            .

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            I suggest this animated gif makes it very clear the shiny metal pipes were installed as part of the JMP/IH install.
            .

          • Obvious

            Maybe they just tagged into the existing bathroom vent stack. I’m doing some fiddling too with the photo. Not sure why…

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Now it is you ignoring what your eyes see. This is a new, very shiny min 6in diameter piping system with a water trap at the bottom of the vertical pipe. It is not a toilet fan exhaust system. It is how JMP exhaust some of their process waste heat.

            The shiny pipe was not there in your early image.

            I thank you and IH for providing that data.
            .

          • Obvious

            Shall we figure out how much heat they can send up the pipe?
            Note that it is not insulated at all.

          • Ged

            Should be some sort of HVAC duct equation somewhere, and those aren’t typically insulated so it should be applicable.

          • Obvious

            Well, I did a natural convection chimney calculation, with 104°C air and 20°C replacing the air in the building.
            It required a 1.4 m diameter chimney moving air at ~9.5 m/s. I checked 8 and 10 m chimneys, and it didn’t make much difference.
            (that might not be quite right…I’l double check. It might have been 9.5 m^3/s)

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            I pushed your image as hard as I know how.

            There is no trace or even a hint of bright shiny metal pipes in your image.
            .

          • Obvious

            I now tend to agree, having overlain the two photos. The up part is obscured by the forklift unfortunately. Exactly in a spot where it is impossible to discern from the background.

          • Obvious

            That’s not the same door. The one with the red light is hidden behind the wall.
            (That is making me seasick, too.)

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Thanks for pointing out the doors. Made this that focuses on the black electrical pipe dropping down from the ceiling. While the forklift blocks the vertical area of the pipe, it is clear the horizontal bright shiny metal pipe is not there in the per move in image.

            Hope this is not so sea sick but blinkers are great for seeing changes.
            .

          • Obvious

            I can see it now

          • Obvious

            Late note: I had to refresh the page to see your photos.

          • Ged

            I hate how Disqus does that.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Thanks for posting the original. Most appreciated.

            Did a wide range Gamma analysis, which is much better than playing with contrast.

            The very shiny metal pipe is not there.
            .

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Then it is out of date and does not show the new min 6in dia roof vent that was installed when JMP moved in.
            .

          • Obvious

            That is supposed to be Jan 20, 2015
            Google has a 2016 image, but it is awful.

    • Gerard McEk

      Maybe JMP’s product is electricity, using a hot air (Sterling) motor? So the thick power cable was needed to feed the electricity into mains. 🙂

      • Interesting thought.

        In which case the word ‘chemical’ in the company name would be a classic Rossi ‘red herring’.

      • georgehants
        • One of those would be perfect, although it would need an intermediate heat-to-pressure converter such as a refrigerant gas boiler and condenser, because the supplied superheated steam is LP. Right size, too.

    • wpj

      Is that a power feed or a lagged flexible water pipe? They would need a lot of water if actually doing what they say they were.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Wpj,

        It is coming from an electrical junction box on the side wall, so I assume it is electrical power cables to JMP.
        .

        • Engineer48

          Hi My2C,

          That was not superheated steam as you can’t see it.

          And the pressure was?

  • Engineer48

    Hi Guys,

    Just saw the new pictures.

    A few observations;

    The paint work on the walls looks new and there is no upper insulated pipe going over the wall, so I assume this image is early on during the installation.

    Weaver did say the adjacent warehouse unit was also used, so maybe that is how JMP gets access to bring in and remove product as clearly the visible white door in the grey wall is not wide enough for goods access.

    The black object seen above the wall may be part of the plant as I doubt an open door with no safety provisions, hand rails, etc would be allowed.

    While distance is hard to judge, the black upward object may be somewhat aligned with the exhaust ceiling fan in that area.

    There is a significant power feed cable into the JMP area.

    While the shot of the ceiling opening at the rear of the plant looks to be a vent, that function would not explain the staining pattern on the roof as attached.

    Suggest the metal piping to the roof is new and not imaged in the satellite images. I doubt it is related to toilets as they are already installed and would use plastic PVC pipe that is much smaller in diameter as against the new metal piping. You can see the old and painted toilet vent pipes to the left of the new metal piping. So I suggest the new metal piping is involved with the plant in some and it may be a vent to atmosphere for some of the plant processes. Being metal it may carry away some of the waste heat. I do note there is a trap at the bottom of the vertical metal pipe, so there may be moisture in what is being vented to the roof and that maybe sometimes it condenses on the side of the pipe and drains down the inside of the vertical section of the metal pipe. So another sign the new metal pipe is involved with the plant and it not a over the top toilet vent. Image attached.
    .

    • Engineer48

      That is a significant trap on the bottom of the vertical section of the metal pipe. I doubt this is a new toilet vent. As the satellite images show, this vent is newer than the sat images as they don’t show it.

      Maybe some of our plant engineers can speculate as to what it is?
      .

      • Billy Jackson

        because of the blurriness that potentially could be a water pipe for a sprinkler system

        • Engineer48

          Hi Billy,

          No sprinklers are visible on the roof.

          I estimate that pipe to be at least 6in in diameter, which I suggest is big enough to exhaust waste heat as warm/hot air through a new roof vent and why there is a water trap at the bottom.

          So guys and girls, through that pipe is where some of the JMP waste heat as waste warm/hot moist air, exits the building. Which means no white steam plume, just hot and moist air as waste heat.
          .

    • Obvious

      A vent to the atmosphere alright… One inline fan near the rooftop can silently suck the air out of two bathrooms, using a combined vent pipe. The other white pipe is the vent stack for the plumbing. They exit side by side on the rooftop.
      The Office bathroom, where the other end of the steel vent pipe goes, (from the T) has a vent stack for plumbing that exits in the middle of the rooftop.

      However, the thinner iron(?) pipe extending across is almost certainly new. It looks not finished on the warehouse wall side.

      • Bruce__H

        Are these guesses or is this information?

        • Engineer48

          Hi Bruce,

          The image is real.

          The new metal pipe is at least 6in in diameter.

          It was not there before JMP moved in.

          It is clearly a waste heat exhaust piping system for hot & moist air, thus the moisture trap at the bottom of the long vertical section.
          .

          • Bruce__H

            Hi Engineer,

            What you say is a guess.

            I was wondering if what Obvious is saying is, similarly, a guess or whether it is based on information obtained from someone who visited the scene and perhaps had the opportunity to actually see all these pipes in person.

        • Obvious

          Sorry, missed you post in the flurry.
          These are I suppose educated guesses. You can work out the measurements, roughly, and it fits together. If the vent were new, then why two on the roof for one pipe? There are two bathrooms listed in the real estate brochures. The roof hasn’t changed since the air photos show it in enough detail to tell. The buildings were built the same, when new. (Maybe minor differences). Compare the roof above each unit. The same. Who puts a bathroom in the office area without a fan? In that humidity? LOL.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            But a 6-8in metal pipe for a single toilet vent? Surely it would be PVC as is the vent pipe to the left of it and that vent pipe is a lot smaller in diameter and painted.

            BTW in Oz warehouses, the toilet vent sits in the middle of a frosted window that lets light and air in. No vent to the roof shite.
            .

          • Obvious

            Standard here is 4 to 6″ galvanized ducting, with a fan, usually linked to a humidisat so that the bathroom vent also acts as a dehumidifier to some extent for the house.
            I don’t see any windows to the warehouse.
            In Argentina, the toilet is often right in the shower and you just open the window..

      • Engineer48

        Hi Obivious,

        That new metal pipe is at least 6in in diameter and it has a steam/water trap at the bottom of the vertical section. That is NOT a toilet vent.

        PVC is used the exhausts toilets and it is not 6in in diamater,

        • Obvious

          It is not a toilet vent. It is for the bathroom fan.
          Try this:

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Now show the roof area for 7861. The new vent is not there.
            .

          • Obvious

            That is 7861

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Here is your image looking at the front.

            Notice the new metal piping system is NOT there.

            It was added during the JMP install.
            . https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/de52e53ae1e081d6c7272f5887e5ea3ea6332fcacae9f20f99a93da406c1adce.jpg

          • Obvious

            Pretty hard to tell from that one. If you squint, and think its there, then it looks like it is there. If you think it isn’t, then you can’t see it.
            I wouldn’t even think to judge by that photo. I’ve pumped the contrast, too, so it’s distorted more than you might think.

            Below is what it looked like new (to me).

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            That pipe is very shiny, it would show up but it does not.

            Nice try but no points this time.
            .

          • Obvious

            You are free to imagine what you like. But it should match up with known existing features, like the roof vents.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Post me the original. I have very good image processing software.

            BTW here is what I processed and that very shiny pipe is clearly NOT THERE. Squinting or not.

            Which means your roof images are out of date and do not show this new roof penetration.
            .

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            I suggest this animated gif makes it very clear the shiny metal pipes were installed as part of the JMP/IH install.
            .

          • Obvious

            Maybe they just tagged into the existing bathroom vent stack. I’m doing some fiddling too with the photo. Not sure why…

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Now it is you ignoring what your eyes see. This is a new, very shiny min 6in diameter piping system with a water trap at the bottom of the vertical pipe. It is not a toilet fan exhaust system. It is how JMP exhaust some of their process waste heat.

            The shiny pipe was not there in your early image.

            I thank you and IH for providing that data.
            .

          • absolutely there is no horizontal part of the shiny metal pipe showing in the forklift photo. but the vertical part (if there) would be hidden by the left side of the forklift. clearly that door showing in the forklift video is not the bathroom door we see in Exhibit 26. (exit sign and door knobs tell the tale)

            why go horizontal so far before going up to the roof if you weren’t tapping into some existing vent hole on the roof?

            how well would hot air travel horizontally? would it need a fan to help it along? one on the roof or at the start of the pipe or both?

          • Obvious

            Shall we figure out how much heat they can send up the pipe?
            Note that it is not insulated at all.

          • Ged

            Should be some sort of HVAC duct equation somewhere, and those aren’t typically insulated so it should be applicable.

          • Obvious

            Well, I did a natural convection chimney calculation, with 104°C air and 20°C replacing the air in the building.
            It required a 1.4 m diameter chimney and moved air at a velocity of ~6.6 m/s. I checked 8 and 10 m chimneys, and it didn’t make much difference.
            That would clear out all of 1 MW.

            Also that was 9.5m^3/s, maximum humid air, not steam.
            (ed:fixed)

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            I pushed your image as hard as I know how.

            There is no trace or even a hint of bright shiny metal pipes in your image.
            .

          • Obvious

            I now tend to agree, having overlain the two photos. The up part is obscured by the forklift unfortunately. Exactly in a spot where it is impossible to discern from the background.

          • Obvious

            That’s not the same door. The one with the red light is hidden behind the wall.
            (That is making me seasick, too.)

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Thanks for pointing out the doors. Made this that focuses on the black electrical pipe dropping down from the ceiling. While the forklift blocks the vertical area of the pipe, it is clear the horizontal bright shiny metal pipe is not there in the per move in image.

            Hope this is not so sea sick but blinkers are great for seeing changes.
            .

          • Obvious

            I can see it now

          • I agree

          • Obvious

            Late note: I had to refresh the page to see your photos.

          • Ged

            I hate how Disqus does that.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Thanks for posting the original. Most appreciated.

            Did a wide range Gamma analysis, which is much better than playing with contrast.

            The very shiny metal pipe is not there.
            .

          • Bruce__H

            I think that the door you see in this photo is not visible at all in the photo from the exhibit. I think this door presently opens into the customer area. Look at the pattern of papered over office windows above this door, it is different from the pattern you see over the door in the new exhibit photo.

            If you look carefully at this photo, you can see that just to the left of the most visible door (the one with the lit exit sign) is the beginning of another door. I think that is the one you see in the exhibit photo.

            The silver pipe isn’t there, just as Engineer says.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Then it is out of date and does not show the new min 6in dia roof vent that was installed when JMP moved in.
            .

          • Obvious

            That is supposed to be Jan 20, 2015
            Google has a 2016 image, but it is awful.
            But it does look essentially identical.

            Seems like the stains next to the skylight vents appeared around 2005-2006.

    • Gerard McEk

      Maybe JMP’s product is electricity, using a hot air (Sterling) motor? So the thick power cable was needed to feed the electricity into mains. 🙂

      • Interesting thought – it would explain quite a lot.

        In which case the word ‘chemical’ in the company name would be a classic Rossi ‘red herring’.

      • georgehants
        • One of those would be perfect, although it would need an intermediate heat-to-pressure converter such as a refrigerant gas boiler and condenser, because the supplied superheated steam is LP. Right size to fit into a container or road trailer, too.

          Edit: Marvelous noise from the modified Corvette chassis – the compressed air version sounds just like a steam engine. The steam powered version sounds like a combination of a steam engine and an ancient car engine. The IC version may need a bit more work though.

    • wpj

      Is that a power feed or a lagged flexible water pipe? They would need a lot of water if actually doing what they say they were.

      Interesting as well that Rossi gave the measurements of their unit, which seemed pretty small to me for what was going on; he failed to mention the whole of the outside area for storage.

      Also, the caustic solutions would not be classified as hazardous; the only thing in their process that could be hazardous would be some hydrogen release during the leach. Could that pipe possibly be an outlet for the hydrogen?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Wpj,

        It is coming from an electrical junction box on the side wall, so I assume it is electrical power cables to JMP.
        .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    The heat is in the evaporated water.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi EEStor,

    Yes the office space is behind that walling section.

    Fairly standard way to create office space as most warehouses have a small 2 story office area at the front that is divided from the rear warehouse section.

    As both Obvious and Rossi explained, the door from the office area to the warehouse is inside the JMP production area, so IH folks visiting the office and then the reactor had to walk around the building and enter the reactor area via the rear stairs and to then see this signage as they entered the reactor area via the read door.

    You can see the rear entry door in this pre ECat install photo of 7861 46th Doral.
    .

    • Engineer48

      BTW Obvious did a good job in laying out the plant. Only issue I have is the 2 red containers need to move down so the smaller container is near the lower wall as I believe the heat exchange resides between the larger ECat container and the upper wall.

      Please note the image evidence supports that neither of the pipes to the customer enter either end of the reactor container which is way I have assumed the heat exchanger is placed where I have drawn it.
      .

      • Engineer48

        Pipes run in front of customer black production and behind the red reactor container.

        • Ged

          Unless it is the how and not the what. Or could be a what too–a new type of the stuff with property enhancing additives would do it.

  • Steve Savage

    Exactly

  • Engineer48

    How to get rid of some of the JMP waste heat.

    For sure a min diameter 6in metal pipe system, complete with a water trap at the bottom of the vertical section of the pipe is what this new piping is there for.

    Note that the sat images of the roof do not show this new roof vent, so that is why we missed it earlier.

    Thanks to IH for giving us engineers the images we needed to understand how JMP exited some of their waste heat as hot and moist air, which would not cause an external white steam plume.

    The 4ft dia ceiling exhaust fan, above the JMP production area, would take care of the rest that did not exit via the new roof vent.

    As attached.
    .

    • Obvious

      I think they just tied into the existing vent. Shiny new horizontal, and old dirty vertical.

      I’ll see if I have any images of the back wall from one of the other units that might have some clues.
      Edit: nothing.

    • Good analysis. Forced hot air ejection via 6/8″ metal ducting (suggesting relatively high temps that might soften uPVC) would probably be enough to dump up to 1MW(t), but an evaporative component (spray cooler) would reduce required ejection flow rates and required fan power. Ged has crunched some numbers further down the thread.

      Leaked process heat could easily be disposed of by a fan vent in the roof of the container/trailer, but I suspect that the unit was designed to operate unattended anyway, so internal temps were probably unimportant.

      I wonder if the black pipe in the cable tray is for water rather than electrical power. If not, a cable of that diameter would indicate very heavy demand – much more than would be expected from 2 or 3 cooling/ejection fans and ancillary equipment.

      Edit: Gerard McEk suggests below that the black container/trailer might house some kind of experimental thermal-electric generator set, and the black cable might therefore be a feed to the grid, rather than a supply cable. He may have suggested this semi-humorously, but the idea might have some merit and perhaps should be taken seriously. It would certainly deal with the ‘product’ problem.

      • Ged

        Hm, honestly, that big black power cable from the customer device to the wall is one of the most mysterious reveals to me. The entire rental space has an energy budget we track by the grid use, so power taken by the customer is power taken away from the 1 MW plant within the budget envelope (ratios of the total; would lower the apparent COP of the plant somewhat if using Grid to judge). If instead power is being made and fed back to the Grid, that could actually over inflate the COP of the 1 MW plant if one just measures from the Grid (still a high positive COP since electrical conversion is not 100% efficient). If the COP was based on the input at the plant it wouldn’t be affected by either case though.

        • Obvious

          Seems overly complicated to me.

          • Ged

            Definitely not a fully mature or supported idea at the moment, nor necessary.

        • roseland67

          To feed power back to the grid, there must be sync check relays and controls installed, the utility usually must “bless” this connection before being energized.
          Not impossible, but probably did not happen.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Ged,

          JMP still needs electricity to run it’s systems plus 1MW of heat. I bet there are a few motors involved and maybe some electrical based low level heating.

      • roseland67

        Agaric us,

        Most building owners are NOT going to let people punch holes in their roofs for testing, walls maybe, but not roofs.
        I suspect heat removal was accomplished via other means.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Roseland,

          Obvious suggested JMP tied in the new metal ducting into one of the existing roof vents but that begs the question as to how the existing toilet fan was exhausted. In Oz warehouse toilet fans exhaust into the warehouse space and do not vent to the roof.

          Then again, with enough money, the owner would agree to a new roof vent penetration.
          .

          • Obvious

            E48, I think (guessing) that the fan motor is right at the ceiling. That is cheaper and quieter. Two switches, one fan, one vent. No cross-flow.

    • Bruce__H

      Rossi says that the ventilation system used to exhaust excess heat is not in the photos.

      • Ged

        I think he was talking about on the plant side to exhaust heat not sent to the customer (indeed, we don’t see a good picture of the whole plant nor what is on the other side of it). Heat sent to the customer down the pipe means it was used from the plant’s perspective. That fits his two points together.

    • roseland67

      48,

      Make up air then?
      Thru open garage doors?

  • Ged

    I am not sure, and think the calculation is much too low, due to subtle differences in units. Standard 30′ fans with 1 HP can output 10k CFM or more, so 20k CFM of needed cooling power would be trivial at best.

    Using cooling rules for computer server rooms, which use upwards of 10 MW of power in a 30k square foot space, it seems one would need 154k CFM for a 20 F inlet/outlet difference when dissipating 1 MW of heat; close to Obvious’ calculations using air heat capacity and density. http://tileflow.com/assets/files/tileflow/TF06-Heatload_cfm.pdf

    Good roof exhaust vents put out 75k of CFM, and bigger 60′ ones can do 100k+ as Obvious noted, so air cooling can handle 1 MW (or 50 MW as in the largest data centers), and it seems we do have enough available fan slots and sizes to accomplish this at the site.

    It is doable, but doesn’t mean it was done. But people claiming it could not be done are wrong.

    Fun little read on modeling heat for those 10 MW consuming data centers http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/papers/2002/thermal_may02.pdf

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    The image is real.

    The new metal pipe is at least 6in in diameter.

    It was not there before JMP moved in.

    It is clearly a waste heat exhaust piping system for hot & moist air, thus the moisture trap at the bottom of the long vertical section.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Looking at the fork lift tyre marks on the fool in the right images, I suggest to get goods in and out of the JMP plant the goods / chemicals are in drums / barrels that a forklift tynes can put through the open door. Then just need another fork lift on the other side to take the drums / barrels off the other forklift tynes & to the plant. You can even see forklift turning tyre marks on the reactor side floor.

    You can align the marks on the walls in the 2 images, with the door and the visible one side of the forklift tyre marks.

    So it is doable to pass JMP goods through the door and the forklift tyre marks on the reactor side floor are proof it did happen.
    .

    • Frost*

      Search for Ledakon Americas in google images to see all of the available photos.

      • Obvious

        Bingo!

      • Gerald

        You mean Ledakon was in the buiding Rossi did buy on the auction of 13-03-2014? I must agree it looks a alike, but then all these buildings are more or less the same.

        • wpj

          The auction for the fork lifts was at 7277 NW32, so it this really the same building? There is also another address for Ledakon at 6701 NW 7th St

          • Obvious

            The scaffolding was sold “as is, where is” and was bolted to the floor.
            The auctioneers wouldn’t touch that if they could avoid it.
            The forklifts were probably moved from the site after photos were taken.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Gerald,

          Ledakon Americas was the prior occupant of 7861 46th Doral before JMP leased it for 2 years.
          .

          • wpj

            Sold to Luna y Sol in 2014

          • Gerald

            Yes, I saw the great action shot from the google map guys with men working outside. didn’t know it was the exact same facility. I wonder, in the photo’s from the inside of the plant, the plasterd wall is it to cover/insulate the windows on the second floor?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Please read what Rossi said and Frank put in the header.

        Rossi said:

        “There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.”
        .

    • It’s also possible that the skid marks resulted either from previous occupation, and/or when the various containers were brought in and positioned, possibly using detachable jacking castors for the ISO containers.

      I think the door would have been larger if it was intended to use it for goods in/out. The idea of passing barrels over the partition between two fork lift trucks would give any ‘elfin safety’ person apoplexy.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Rossi did say the heat not used was vented away.
        .

    • MikeP

      Given the tyre marks on the fool, I can’t help wondering who got run over by the forklift? … 🙂

  • Engineer48

    Looking at the fork lift tyre marks on the fool in the right images, I suggest to get goods in and out of the JMP plant the goods / chemicals are in drums / barrels that a forklift tynes can put through the open door. Then just need another fork lift on the other side to take the drums / barrels off the other forklift tynes & to the plant. You can even see forklift turning tyre marks on the reactor side floor.

    You can align the marks on the walls in the 2 images, with the door and the visible one side of the forklift tyre marks.

    Using two forklifts, goods could also be passed over the top of the wall and not needing to go through the door. Or there could be a elevatable platform on one side of the wall and on the other a forklift that loads/unloads onto the elevatable platform.

    So it is doable to pass JMP goods through the door and the forklift tyre marks on the reactor side floor are proof it did happen.
    .

    • Frost*

      Search for Ledakon Americas in google images to see all of the available photos.

      • Obvious

        Bingo!

      • Gerald

        You mean Ledakon was in the buiding Rossi did buy on the auction of 13-03-2014? I must agree it looks a alike, but then all these buildings are more or less the same.

        • wpj

          The auction for the fork lifts was at 7277 NW32, so it this really the same building? There is also another address for Ledakon at 6701 NW 7th St

          • Obvious

            The scaffolding was sold “as is, where is” and was bolted to the floor.
            The auctioneers wouldn’t touch that if they could avoid it.
            The forklifts were probably moved from the site after photos were taken.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Gerald,

          Ledakon Americas was the prior occupant of 7861 46th Doral before JMP leased it for 2 years.
          .

          • wpj

            Sold to Luna y Sol in 2014

          • Gerald

            Yes, I saw the great action shot from the google map guys with men working outside. didn’t know it was the exact same facility. I wonder, in the photo’s from the inside of the plant, the plasterd wall is it to cover/insulate the windows on the second floor?

    • frank

      Yes, it is doable – but interestingly not even Rossi mentioned a single time (as far as I remember), that there was a constant flow of goods (mysterious sponges?) Easily trackable by anybody from outside the building. Who the hell still believes (photo or video documentation) in a “manufacturing” and a real customer behind the curtain??

      • Michael W Wolf

        So now the impossible removal of heat is debunked. Now you change to the next speculation from ignorance? This is becoming farcical. Why not assume there is no “great conspiracy” which IH claims there is, and believe the simple answer. Rossi was producing excess heat until proven he didn’t. What will you guys do if Bass comes forward? Seems Rossi is not the only one producing excess heat. IH is producing enough hot air to run that manufacturing plant. So far not one shred of proof of their libelous claims.

        • roseland67

          Michael,

          I thought that IH was claiming the Ecat did not work as stated?

          • Michael W Wolf

            Me too. But now they have scaled it up to a great conspiracy when they answered Rossi’s claims officially. They are directly implying it didn’t work at all. And as you probably regretfully see. IH is being picked apart piece by piece with all the inaccurate assertions. Don’t you think? After all, they have officially contradicted the claims they made in the patent they swore was accurate.

      • easily trackable? it could only take 5 to10 minutes/week of loading a truck with one to 4 skids of barrels or other goods. Worst stake out ever! Oh yeah nobody was staking out the place, I forgot.

        And I don’t expect Rossi is going to mention this periodic loading either since the customer’s operations were to be kept on the down low, never mind it’s completely uninteresting.

    • It’s also possible that the skid marks resulted either from previous occupation, and/or when the various containers were brought in and positioned, possibly using detachable jacking castors for the ISO containers. Fork lifts don’t normally leave tyre tracks when handling light loads such as filled 200 litre drums.

      I think the door would have been larger if it was intended to use it for goods in/out. The idea of passing barrels of possibly corrosive/toxic liquid over the partition between two fork lift trucks would make any ‘elfin safety’ person apoplectic.

      • it could be done safely with a elevated plaform, pallet and forklift combo.

        • Engineer48

          Hi EEStor,

          Yup for sure.
          .

    • MikeP

      Given the tyre marks on the fool, I can’t help wondering who got run over by the forklift? … 🙂

  • I agree (reluctantly). I believe Engineer48 has correctly identified the mechanism (metal riser ducting carrying hot air out). As there doesn’t seem to be any visible means of bringing in production materials or taking away product and waste, a ‘simulation’ of a varying load using twin heat exchangers with logging facilities seems most likely. If so, then the ‘customer’ will be in possession of records that should verify Penon’s report.

    • wpj

      If you go back to what the actor known as James Bass said in his presentations, they claim that the process consumes on tenth to one twentieth the energy requirement of their other units producing this material.

      Rossi is claiming a COP of over 50, so (assuming these statements are true!) there was a considerable amount of heat that had to be vented to balance out these two figures. This was alluded to as it was claimed that the water returned at a higher temperature when there was no draw from the customer.

    • Ged

      I think “used” just means the heat was sent from the plant to the customer. That is used from the plant’s point of view and returns cooler. We have seen no full pictures of the plant, so there could be a plant-side vent to get rid of heat not sent to the customer, like an emergency release if something went down customer side.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Agaricus,

      It is simple for JMP to have an elevatable platform that lifts up to the height of the wall and then a forklift from the reactor side deposits or removes goods from the elevated platform, which when the goods movements are completed, drops down so a forklift on the JMP side can move the goods on the platform as required.
      .

  • wpj

    Yes, if we believe the Bass figures (giving COP 10-20) and Rossi COP 50, then about 60% would be vented/wasted.

    • Obvious

      That was an energy requirement cost savings, not a COP figure from Bass. How would Bass or JMP know what the COP of the power going in was? So a bit trickier to work out. One could probably safety assume they used electricity before Rossi (in this fantasy) since there is no gas being used ASAIK, and they simply turn up their power when the 1MW plant makes 3/4 MW.

      • wpj

        It was stated long ago that gas was used by these people for the process in their own plant. Maybe my saying their COP equivalent of 20 was not correct, but Mats L’s contact says that the energy usage per unit of product was one twentieth. We also know that one of the bills had COP 24 written on it as people saw this before Mats removed it from his blog. I am making the assumption that these people saw the electric bill and were able to make the comparison.

        • Obvious

          I think I saved a copy of the bill. I will look.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Yes Please do and post.
            .

        • Obvious

          Can’t find it. Maybe I never saw it. It is the sort of thing I would save right away if I did.

  • Thomas Kaminski

    The heat could have been exhausted through a roof vent. Hot, moist, air carries a lot of energy. As I mentioned earlier, the steam flow could be piped directly out. Higher flows can be generated with an inexpensive exhaust fan like the attic fan posted below.

  • Bob Greenyer

    For those seeking confirmation bias.

    Essentially, there are commonly manufactured items that use a lot of energy to produce.

    Polyurethane insulation (rigid foam) 101.5 MJoules/kg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy

    https://goo.gl/P7ZDAT

    http://goo.gl/JUUhoN

    • GiveADogABone

      ‘Embodied energy analysis is interested in what energy goes to supporting a consumer, and so all energy depreciation is assigned to the final demand of consumer’

      ‘Assigned’ does not say that ALL the embodied energy IS used in the final process. Intermediate processes could, and probably do, use almost all of it.

      • Bob Greenyer

        As I say above, the total embodied energy will include production of the pre-cursor chemicals

        • GiveADogABone

          Do you have a feel for how much of the 101.5MJ/kg for polyurethane insulation would actually be released in the sketched production plant?

          • Obvious

            Using the 88.6 MJ/kg value, I just calculated that if ALL the embodied energy of the EPS went into the foam, it would take production of 50 m^3 per day.

          • Ged

            Actually, ~50 ft^3 rather than meters, according to this on the upper density of this type of foam https://www.generalplastics.com/why-polyurethane.html

            This seems like it could actually be handled and transported per day. Of course, this is ALL the energy going into production with 100% efficiency. One could not actually make that much with 1 ME realistically.

          • Obvious

            That is some dense foam (sinks). I used 20 kg/m^3. There were plenty of fluffier foams. I thought I was being conservative.

            “This EPD describes Expanded Polystyrene foam (EPS). The closed cell structure is filled with air (98% air; only 2% polystyrene) and results in a light weight, tough, strong and rigid thermoplastic insulation foam. The products are mainly used for thermal and acoustical insulation of buildings. The foam is available in various dimensions and shapes. Boards can be supplied with different edge treatments such as butt edge, ship lap, tongue and groove. Density range is from about 18 to 22 kg/m3 corresponding to a compressive strength value of about 100 kPa. This EPD is applicable to homogeneous EPS products without material combinations or facings. Most important properties are the thermal conductivity and compressive strength. ”
            – ECO-EPS

          • Ged

            Meanwhile, if it is polyurethane as Bob also posted most about, instead of polystyrene, we see:

            “Polyurethane foams are considerably different and more useful in composite constructions. Polyurethane foams are made in large blocks (often referred to as “buns”) through either a continuous-extrusion process or in a batch process. The blocks are then cut into sheets or other shapes. They may also be individually molded into discrete part shapes.

            ….

            Foam densities range from approximately 3 to 50 lbs. per cubic foot. Unlike thermoplastic foams (PVC, SAN), the unit cost of polyurethane foam increases in a linear fashion with density, so a 20-lbs.-per-cubic foot polyurethane foam will be approximately twice the cost of a 10-lb. foam.”

            -https://www.generalplastics.com/why-polyurethane.html

          • Obvious

            Even 50 ft^3 would be rather unwieldy in a 30′ x 70′ area rather quickly…

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Weaver did say the adjacent warehouse unit was also used.

            Didn’t you find the units could be linked?
            .

          • Obvious

            Nope. Next door is linked to the far warehouse. Technopack had both of them until around August 2015, when they moved..

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Weaver stated in an adjacent warehouse unit.

            But then a lot of what Weaver has said has turned out to be FUD.
            .

          • Obvious

            His hit rate has been pretty good.
            If half of the remaining things he claimed are true, that we have not yet seen, it will be ugly.

          • The silver piping would be venting significantly less than 1 MW with convection, an endothermic process and the skylight vent also in play.

            Exhaust steam does not always make a visible plume (and anyway who’s to say there wasn’t one?).

            We have hearsay about IR cameras being used, but we don’t know when or where, what they actually looked at, nor have the data or results of those measurements.

            Some previous assertions from IH acolytes, like tampering with the flow meter, have turned out to be (so far) completely unsupported.

            Murray, as a paid agent of IH, cannot be trusted any more than Rossi can. Engineering and science are our only reliable witnesses.

            So far, the evidence provided by the defendants’ counter-claim have proven to be riddled with poor assumptions and prone to jumping to conclusions not warranted by their observations.

            Rossi’s reply should be revealing.

          • wpj

            I don’t understand all these steam bit; the only steam was from the plant to the client’s heat exchanger and the condensate returned to the plant; it has been already stated that the water returned at 60C+ depending on the client’s draw.

            The excess heat, then, must be released as hot air.

          • Yes, what the customer did with the heat delivered by the heat exchanger is an open question.

            I think people have this image of a fire hose blasting steam into the customer area, but that is not likely.

            The customer winding up with steam of their own at the end of their process using the heat is likely, but not the only possibility.

          • wpj

            I have my doubts; very hot water, maybe and then a fan to cool and vent.

          • Yes, maybe. If we get a few more details we might be able to put it together.

          • I think it’s one interpretation of Rossi’s statement, but not the one that came into my mind first nor the most reasonable one.

            Given that there are multiple interpretations, he was unwise to use it as the basis of a slanderous rant.

          • Ged

            I would guess it would be most efficient to transport it out in small increments; but don’t forget it is stackable, so really 30′ x 70′ x 20′ 😉

          • Obvious

            Don’t forget that it is insulation… kinda concentrates the heat when stacked to the rafters…

          • Ged

            Mostly it would just interrupt airflow, unless it completely blocked a heat source from ventilation, of course. Kinda goes to those multi-MW data center airflow problems if one stacked them like server racks. But the ceiling is high which helps a great deal with that.

          • Obvious

            So… about 36 ft^3 ?

          • Ged

            Looks like that would be about 75% of the power, at that high density, leaving 250 kW waste heat to deal with, in that hypothetical case. At least reasonable numbers, definitely more realistic than 100% usage, considering exchanged and process inefficiencies, and an easier material load.

            It would be easy to innocuously transport too. A 10 ft moving van has 402 ft^3 of space, so you could take several days to fill to capacity, making traffic to and from the location quite low. https://www.uhaul.com/Trucks/10ft-Moving-Truck-Rental/TM/

          • Obvious

            I dunno. Maybe I am getting number overload.
            I was figuring that 30 x 70 x 20 feet was equal to a cube about 36 feet a side.
            You need a Tardis brand van for that.

          • Ged

            Oh, I see! Well, 42,000 ft^3 comes out to closer to 34.8 ft a side, I think. That would be a little too long (42.1k ft^3), but sig figs and all.

          • Obvious

            For some (no good) reason I used 46000 cubic feet.
            I need to take a break from this nonsense… cubic feet, feet^3…it’s all running together…

          • Bob Greenyer

            Which, it would not be.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Not so hard with one of those machines.

    • Gerald

      Now I understand that stuff is so expensive. The things you can learn surfing the web. 😉

      • Bob Greenyer

        Imagine how cheap it would be to insulate stuff if the energy to make it was priced much lower.

        • Gerald

          Yes, i can imagine, the effect goes down ^2 energy wise. Don’t think my goverment likes it, they need to come up with a new bisniz plan….

          • Ophelia Rump

            Introducing Solar Foam!

  • Bob Greenyer

    For those seeking confirmation bias.

    Essentially, there are commonly manufactured items that use a lot of energy to produce. Embodied energy is important to get to the bottom of what can possibly need this kind of energy.

    Polyurethane insulation (rigid foam) 101.5 MJoules/kg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy

    https://goo.gl/P7ZDAT

    http://goo.gl/JUUhoN

    Each kg of PEU foam board needs over 28kW for an hour to produce, but that will include chemical feedstock production also. Investigate key temperatures when thinking about if a product is a candidate in this case. Plants are typically long though.

    I am not saying that it is the “manufactured item” just that it is an example of potential product that would use the energy supply in the way it is supplied and the return would be similar.For instance, the return water would be 50-70ºC in the case of making PEU board

    PEU is interesting since the raw materials can be brought in as liquid, the manufacturing process uses similar temperatures as described, only requires heat exchangers, can be automated and results in a product that has a high embodied energy.

    This EPS video is worth it for the charming voiceover.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rmbYA-hrpQ

    though EPS has a lower embodied energy of 88.6 MJ/kg

    • gameover

      Hey Bob I wonder why people don’t take me seriously when I write that LENR could also be used for cooling. Yesterday I linked this paper on LENR-Forum:

      “Anomalous Exothermic and Endothermic Data Observed by Nano-Ni-Composite Samples”
      http://www.vixra.org/pdf/1309.0070v1.pdf

      If Rossi truly mastered LENR he could have taken advantage of the very same anomalous endothermic effect (scaled up n-times) described above for cooling. In fact I posit that the main reason for restricting access to the client side in Doral was the presence of an extra proprietary E-Cat system operating in a different mode which got rid of most of the waste heat and that wasn’t part of the IP Rossi licensed to IH. Implausible in this context? Maybe, but not impossible and could solve the missing heat problem.

    • Bruce__H

      The issue is efficiency. What proportion of the energy used in PEU manufacture, for instance, actually ends up in the product? Unless it is a process where the proportion is large, Rossi’s recent remark (that “The heat was used, not vented away from the customer”) makes no sense.

      • Robert Dorr

        It would be much easier for Rossi to say that the majority of the heat was vented away somehow than to say the heat was used in the manufacture of some product. Think about it, why would he insist that the heat was used for a manufacturing process than instead just vented away? The answer is because it was used, we just don’t know what process it was used for. Let’s wait and find out. Sounds interesting to me.

        • Bruce__H

          Rossi came out with the information about the heat being used rather than vented directly after it IH released photos its latest photos of the plant premises. Rossi is altering he sees what IH has.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bruce,

            Please read what Rossi said and Frank put in the header.

            Rossi said:

            “There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.”
            .

          • Michael W Wolf

            You guys have debunked the idea that there is no way the heat could be
            vented out. So they are taking advantage of Rossi’s not so accurate
            English. You think any of them will apologize for making a mountain out
            of a non existent molehill? These people clearly have an ax to grind and
            nothing they say should be taken seriously. By the time Bass comes forward, they’ll slither away I suspect.

        • Engineer48

          Ho Robert, who wrote:
          “It would be much easier for Rossi to say that the excess heat was vented away somehow”

          Rossi did say just that:

          “There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.”
          .

          • Robert Dorr

            I didn’t mean to say excess heat. My point is that all the skeptics are saying there is no process that can use this much thermal energy in an endothermic manner, yet Rossi is sticking to his comment that the energy was indeed used in an endothermic process rather than all of it just being vented away. To me that provides more proof that he was using the vast majority of the thermal energy to manufacture something rather than just venting the thermal energy to the environment. I realize that he did have to vent some of the excess energy.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Rossi did say the heat not used was vented away.

        “There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.”
        .

        • Bruce__H

          Rossi’s statement is ambiguous. He also said it was not vented away … “The heat was used, not vented away from the Customer”.

    • Mark D

      Yes a great example of the type of industrial process that requires this type of energy. A potential future customer base for the plant. However does not meet the criteria of a trade secret process that would not allow visitation and so much secrecy.

      • Ged

        Unless it is the how and not the what. Or could be a what too–a new type of the stuff with property enhancing additives would do it.

    • roseland67

      Bob,

      Is this, (EPS foam), what was manufactured with the output from the 1MW plant?

      • He doesn’t know what was manufactured, if anything, by the factory. The 1 MW plant made heat. The factory did something, or nothing. We’re trying to bound the problem with science and engineering realities, of which stored energy (embodied energy) may be an essential part of the equation.

        • Ged

          ^^^^ This.

          Wish posts could be sticked at the top.

        • Bob Greenyer

          LENR G, that is correct, my post was more a thought exercise, an approach to thinking about what could account for the energy consumption in the space given with the input and output temps claimed – I am more interested in IF and HOW the New Fire works, WHEN it works – everything is possible.

          • How about an MFMP and me356 update, Bob? MFMP should be about ready for the next GlowStick round, right?

          • Bob Greenyer

            After the end of my family holiday – I will produce a few more videos.

            The first *GlowStick* experiment to run maybe a replication by a third party.

            We will let people know soon about our significant plans for the rest of the year – firming up now.

        • gameover

          Rossi said he worked as a consultant for his customers and helped them taking advantage of the E-Cat (for their manufacturing process, supposedly). It doesn’t sound like he just provided a low grade steam outlet.

          Andrea Rossi
          August 13, 2016 at 11:07 AM
          Jim Kelvin:
          Yes, I was a consultant of them and helped them to take maximum
          advantage of the E-Cat. Obviously IH was perfectly informed also of this
          from the beginning.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.

          Jim Kelvin
          August 13, 2016 at 10:25 AM
          Dr Andrea Rossi:
          Did you help your costumer to realize his plant?
          Cheers,
          Jim

    • GiveADogABone

      ‘Embodied energy analysis is interested in what energy goes to supporting a consumer, and so all energy depreciation is assigned to the final demand of consumer’

      ‘Assigned’ does not say that ALL the embodied energy IS used in the final process. Intermediate processes could, and probably do, use almost all of it.

      • Bob Greenyer

        As I say above, the total embodied energy will include production of the pre-cursor chemicals

        • GiveADogABone

          Do you have a feel for how much of the 101.5MJ/kg for polyurethane insulation would actually be released/absorbed in the sketched production plant, rather than say in the oil refinery that made the precursor chemicals?

          • Obvious

            Using the 88.6 MJ/kg value, I just calculated that if ALL the embodied energy of the EPS went into the foam, it would take production of 50 m^3 per day.

          • Ged

            Actually, ~50 ft^3 rather than meters, according to this on the upper density of this type of foam https://www.generalplastics.com/why-polyurethane.html

            This seems like it could actually be handled and transported per day in this facility. Of course, this is ALL the energy going into production with 100% efficiency. One could not actually make that much with 1 MW realistically.

          • Obvious

            That is some dense foam (sinks). I used 20 kg/m^3. There were plenty of fluffier foams. I thought I was being conservative.

            “This EPD describes Expanded Polystyrene foam (EPS). The closed cell structure is filled with air (98% air; only 2% polystyrene) and results in a light weight, tough, strong and rigid thermoplastic insulation foam. The products are mainly used for thermal and acoustical insulation of buildings. The foam is available in various dimensions and shapes. Boards can be supplied with different edge treatments such as butt edge, ship lap, tongue and groove. Density range is from about 18 to 22 kg/m3 corresponding to a compressive strength value of about 100 kPa. This EPD is applicable to homogeneous EPS products without material combinations or facings. Most important properties are the thermal conductivity and compressive strength. ”
            – ECO-EPS

          • Ged

            Meanwhile, if it is polyurethane as Bob also posted most about, instead of polystyrene, we see:

            “Polyurethane foams are considerably different and more useful in composite constructions. Polyurethane foams are made in large blocks (often referred to as “buns”) through either a continuous-extrusion process or in a batch process. The blocks are then cut into sheets or other shapes. They may also be individually molded into discrete part shapes.

            ….

            Foam densities range from approximately 3 to 50 lbs. per cubic foot. Unlike thermoplastic foams (PVC, SAN), the unit cost of polyurethane foam increases in a linear fashion with density, so a 20-lbs.-per-cubic foot polyurethane foam will be approximately twice the cost of a 10-lb. foam.”

            -https://www.generalplastics.com/why-polyurethane.html

          • Obvious

            Even 50 ft^3 would be rather unwieldy in a 30′ x 70′ area rather quickly…

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Weaver did say the adjacent warehouse unit was also used.

            Didn’t you find the units could be linked?
            .

          • Obvious

            Nope. Next door is linked to the far warehouse. Technopack had both of them until around August 2015, when they moved. (They have lots of big machines like pallet wrappers, etc.)

            I think DW just said that the Customer was on the other side of the wall.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Weaver stated in an adjacent warehouse unit.

            But then a lot of what Weaver has said has turned out to be FUD.
            .

          • Obvious

            His hit rate has been pretty good.
            If half of the remaining things he claimed are true, that we have not yet seen, it will be ugly.

          • Ged

            I would guess it would be most efficient to transport it out in small increments; but don’t forget it is stackable, so really 30′ x 70′ x 20′ 😉

          • Obvious

            Don’t forget that it is insulation… kinda concentrates the heat when stacked to the rafters…

          • Ged

            Mostly it would just interrupt airflow, unless it completely blocked a heat source from ventilation, of course. Kinda goes to those multi-MW data center airflow problems if one stacked them like server racks. But the ceiling is high which helps a great deal with that.

          • Obvious

            So… about 36 ft^3 ?

          • Ged

            Looks like that would be about 75% of the power, at that high density, leaving 250 kW waste heat to deal with, in that hypothetical case. At least reasonable numbers, definitely more realistic than 100% usage, considering exchanged and process inefficiencies, and an easier material load.

            It would be easy to innocuously transport too. A 10 ft moving van has 402 ft^3 of space, so you could take several days to fill to capacity (weight capacity could run out before space) making traffic to and from the location quite low. https://www.uhaul.com/Trucks/10ft-Moving-Truck-Rental/TM/

          • Obvious

            I dunno. Maybe I am getting number overload.
            I was figuring that 30 x 70 x 20 feet was equal to a cube about 36 feet a side.
            You need a Tardis(TM) brand van for that.

          • Ged

            Oh, I see! Well, 42,000 ft^3 comes out to closer to 34.8 ft a side, I think. That would be a little too long (42.1k ft^3), but sig figs and all.

          • Obvious

            For some (no good) reason I used 46000 cubic feet.
            I need to take a break from this nonsense… cubic feet, feet^3…it’s all running together…
            (stuffing 70 x 30 x 20 feet into a 10 foot moving truck… now it seems silly. The trucking containers go in the warehouse, not the other way around…)

          • Bob Greenyer

            Which, it would not be.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Not so hard with one of those machines.

    • Andy Kumar

      // For those seeking confirmation bias. //
      .
      Bob, recently signs of confirmation bias are creeping up in your own MFMP work, with many false positives. I think you should do “blind” testing on all your reactor designs to make the conclusions more reliable.

      You and your team can design or copy your reactor from prior known art. Make one a real reactor, another one dummy with inert fuel. Hire a part time college physics student and ask him to take measurements without knowing which reactor is active. Good idea?

      • Bob Greenyer

        An independent replication is currently well advanced.

        Our plans for the rest of the year would make what you suggest very possible

        I don’t like confirmation bias. In our case unexpected results confirmed prior claims, i.e. we were not looking for things to fit the evidence, data just came that did, moreover, following the engineering implications of that data would have lead to design decisions that were taken (but that no MFMP member knew about when we were thinking about the design implications).

        Of course, Rossi has not claimed seeing Neutrons but even when we appeared to do, it seemed temperature dependent and did not exist in the vast bulk of the run.

      • Bob Greenyer

        We do try to kill any conjecture as fast as possible. Did you have something specific in mind?

        We tried hard to use every approach available to us in GS 5.3 to dismiss the variance in favour of the active side – in the end we could not, though it was as usual small – and just like our Celani results (where after 2 years it was established his results were closer to our consistent result range) – Parkhomov’s MFC results end up looking a lot like ours now and not the much higher results of his earlier set-ups.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Bob,

      Shite that is 28.2kWh/kg of Polyurethane foam or 35kg of the foam per 1MWh.
      .

    • Gerald

      Now I understand that stuff is so expensive. The things you can learn surfing the web. 😉

      • Bob Greenyer

        Imagine how cheap it would be to insulate stuff if the energy to make it was priced much lower.

        • Gerald

          Yes, i can imagine, the effect goes down ^2 energy wise. Don’t think my goverment likes it, they need to come up with a new bisniz plan….

          • Ophelia Rump

            Introducing Solar Foam!

  • Ged

    I think he was talking about on the plant side to exhaust heat not sent to the customer (indeed, we don’t see a good picture of the whole plant nor what is on the other side of it). Heat sent to the customer down the pipe means it was used from the plant’s perspective. That fits his two points together.

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    If Bass takes the stand, and testifies to real process, this aspect of the IH defense is toast, but this is all secondary defense. If no agreement to a Guaranteed Performance Test, no payment due, no basis for lawsuit. Only if somehow IH screwed up and agreed to a test in a clearly inappropriate setting for that, then the secondary defense is of fraud.

    • Ged

      “no basis for lawsuit”

      And that is what the MTD already tested. They could try pitching it again to the Jury though. But at some point we really should move on.

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    Whereas the fine upstanding Rossi believers would never libel anyone, because the critics are actually paid IH FUDbots and IH officers are not worthy of the air they breathe, just a fact, right? Sifferkoll said so.

    The serious part of the Cow-sicle is that one way to handle the heat would be by melting ice, but it would need to be a lot of ice. If JM Products had equipment capable of handling a megawatt, why so obscure?

    Do not forget, it’s been claimed that IH did an infrared survey of the building and found no trace of it. Now, yes, if there were some chemical process, a megawatt endothermic, with very high efficiency, they wouldn’t see anything, but this would require moving a lot of product and no chemist so far has come up with anything like that.

    As to humor and joking, isn’t that what Rossi is saying? “Nevertheless I must confess that these amendments have remarkably improved the former countercomplaints, completing their cultural reach: before they were comic, now they are tragicomic.”

    So, we will see who laughs last. I take no pleasure in Rossi’s downfall. Tragicomic is actually an appropriate word. “Johnson Matthew.” Selling JM Products as better than a test in North Carolina because they would be more credible, being independent, the only connection being that the sole clearly identified officer or person connected with JM Products is Johnson, and it is a mere coincidence that he is the President of Leonardo Corporation, Rossi’s company.

    • Ged

      There is no evidence yet IH did any IR survey. Nor is it trivial to do that, as there are plenty of cooling routes scattered about the warehouse.

      Really wish you would stop presenting assumption as fact (Rossi’s downfall? We know nothing definitely yet, please just stop) when we are trying to work only with data and facts to test assumptions. Really ruins the atmosphere and provides nothing of substance :/.

      • Obvious

        This is what an IR image of a grow-op looks like.
        Can you guess what apartment it is in?

        • Ged

          That’s what they get for having inadequate ventilation! Actually a rather hilarious photo. I would hate to be the folks next door.

          Here’s the inside of a generic warehouse
          http://www.flir.com/uploadedImages/CS_EMEA/Application_Stories/Automation/Images/Temperature_Measurements.png

          Quantitating all that and the heat flows is the hard part. Have to select the right camera too for the wavelengths needed to catch it all in quantifiable sense, but probably not too hard. We all remember MFMP’s adventure with the Optris.

          • Obvious

            Even if the building was only 10°C hotter than the neighbors, it should be very obvious. I don’t think anyone would try to calculate the power dissipated.

          • Ged

            So there are two different questions: was the temperature different enough to see given available cooling (particularly at the vents), and was that difference enough to account for the production going on.

            So far… no data for evaluation of either question.

      • Well said. Unfortunately he’s a FUDster and that’s what FUDsters do. Ineffective as it is.

  • Ged

    Well, technically there doesn’t have to be a lower bound per se, and saying endothermic only takes a small percentage of the heat supplied is false; mostly due to over simplification. Take melting ice for example. For as long as it is phase changing, if the heat supplied does not exceed the thermal conductivity of the ice/water mix, all will be absorbed with no appreciable “waste” heat, thus keeping the temperature static. This is why phase change materials are so interesting for heat energy storage, and some experimental ones can store crazy amounts of heat per kg.

    The same is basically true for chemical reactions. If the heat supply rate is high enough to overcome energy of activation, but not higher than the kinetic rate constant and negative enthalpy magnitude (rate constant is somewhat temp dependent, so there will only be a small temp range sweet spot that may or may not be possible to hit depending on the rate and enthalpy constants in question), then all the heat will be absorbed with no meaningful “waste” (heat that escapes).

    High temps where only a fraction of the heat is absorbed is done on that the rate constant of the reaction is jacked up for fast production and more profit/time (constrained bungie costs of the over heating of course).

    I don’t know of the reactions done at these temperature domains, but not -all- the heat rate needs absorption anyways in this case. The chemists around here seem to say there are some appropriate reactions, and a complex chain of them would absorb the most heat (two stage synthesis reactions can take a lot of heat input to run). Polymers are one of the best synthesis for w/kg loads reasonable for the space and energy available. But I have no way of confirming or denying that possibility with what we see–only that it can’t be ice melting or something with an equally low W/kg density as there would be no way to move enough material (particularly if not liquid and nontoxic). Also, the space is rated to only store a small amount of hazardous material, so that must factor in to any proposals as well.

  • Obvious

    If Bass and “Advanced Derivatives of Johnson Mathew Platinum Sponges” are shown to be false, then it is possibly not IH they will have to worry about.

    JMAT are a billion+ dollar company that takes their reputation seriously.

    • Ged

      Oh yes. That would greatly liven up things. Wish Johnson Matthey would release some statement of yes or no, but this tiff may just not even reach acknowledgement status for them, yet.

      • Obvious

        How long do think it took before someone from IH made a phone call, or a polite email with a suggestion of meeting some representatives for dinner and a chat?

  • He doesn’t know what was manufactured, if anything, by the factory. The 1 MW plant made heat. The factory did something, or nothing. We’re trying to bound the problem with science and engineering realities, of which stored energy (embodied energy) may be an essential part of the equation.

    • Ged

      ^^^^ This.

      Wish posts could be sticked at the top.

    • Bob Greenyer

      LENR G, that is correct, my post was more a thought exercise, an approach to thinking about what could account for the energy consumption in the space given with the input and output temps claimed – I am more interested in IF and HOW the New Fire works, WHEN it works – everything is possible.

      • How about an MFMP and me356 update, Bob? MFMP should be about ready for the next GlowStick round, right?

        • Bob Greenyer

          After the end of my family holiday – I will produce a few more videos.

          The first *GlowStick* experiment to run maybe a replication by a third party.

          We will let people know soon about our significant plans for the rest of the year – firming up now.

  • Robert Dorr

    It would be much easier for Rossi to say that the excess heat was vented away somehow than to say the heat was used in the manufacture of some product. Think about it, why would he insist that the heat was used for a manufacturing process than instead just vented away? The answer is because it was used, we just don’t know what process it was used for. Let’s wait and find out. Sounds interesting to me.

    • Engineer48

      Ho Robert, who wrote:
      “It would be much easier for Rossi to say that the excess heat was vented away somehow”

      Rossi did say just that:

      “There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.”
      .

      • Robert Dorr

        My point is that all the skeptics are saying there is no process that can use this much thermal energy in an endothermic manner, yet Rossi is sticking to his comment that the energy was indeed used in an endothermic process rather than all of it just being vented away. To me that provides more proof that he was using the vast majority of the thermal energy to manufacture something rather than just venting the thermal energy to the environment. I realize that he did have to vent some of the excess energy.

  • Engineer48

    Hi EEStor,

    Yup for sure.
    .

  • coolabuelo

    From JONP:

    Jim Kelvin
    Did you help your costumer to realize his plant?

    Andrea Rossi
    August 13, 2016 at 11:07 AM
    Jim Kelvin:
    Yes, I was a consultant of them and helped them to take maximum advantage of the E-Cat. Obviously IH was perfectly informed also of this from the beginning.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • coolabuelo

    From J

    Andrea Rossi
    August 13, 2016 at 7:12 AM
    Candice Bee Watson:
    Yes.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
    ..

    Candice Bee Watson
    August 13, 2016 at 6:48 AM
    Dear Doctor Rossi,
    If the 1MW of thermal power emitted from the ECAT reactors in the plant of the customer was used by the customer and not continually vented away, this seems to imply an endothermic process that trapped heat within the molecular structure of the chemical being produced.
    Can you confirm?

  • Bob Greenyer

    An independent replication is currently well advanced.

    Our plans for the rest of the year would make what you suggest very possible

    I don’t like confirmation bias. In our case unexpected results confirmed prior claims, i.e. we were not looking for things to fit the evidence, data just came that did, moreover, following the engineering implications of that data would have lead to design decisions that were taken (but that no MFMP member knew about when we were thinking about the design implications).

    Of course, Rossi has not claimed seeing Neutrons but even when we appeared to do, it seemed temperature dependent and did not exist in the vast bulk of the run.

  • Engineer48

    This is my conjecture of a possible plant schematic of the 51 Blue Cat backup 1MW reactor system.

    It could apply to the 4 Tiger slab 1MW reactor but I tried to model the 51 Blue Cats as I have more detailed images of that plant to study.

    What I find intriguing is the small PCB that appears to monitor the EMF induced into the heater coil from the EM fields generated by the “Rossi Effect” LENR reaction. The output from the small PCB is monitored by the larger PCB in the reactor control box which is then monitored by the remote LAN connected main control computer.

    Comments most welcome.

    • Andre Blum

      the small pcb is almost certainly a breakout board with a thermocouple amplifier / converter to i2c or spi output.

      • Andre Blum
        • Andre Blum

          a breakout board being a single IC put on a minimal size pcb with the essential IC leads exposed to pins or clamps, popular in the arduino and raspberry pi communities for direct wiring to relevant I/O pins and available on ebay and electronics sites like adafruit and sparkfun. saves you from having to design pcb’s and soldering when wanting to use these chips.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        I do not think so. If you look at the wiring as shown by Engineer48, the output of the pcb goes to the analog in on the eth484 ethernet relay board. Look at the eth484 analog in documentation here:

        http://www.robot-electronics.co.uk/files/eth484.pdf

        You will note that the signal input does not support i2c or spi. It might, however, be a chip that converts the low thermocouple signals to a 0-3.3Volt signal for the analog in. More than likely it is a opto-isolated circuit to separate the high voltage potential of the heater circuit from the low level eth484 controller. Such opto-isolators are common in industrial automation.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Andre,

        The small PCB uses a 4 pin linear OptoCoupler. The images are very clear it is a 4 pin chip as attached. Have designed in these OptoCouplers before so I know what they look like and how they function.

        Plus the wiring connections on the green connector side are to the heater excitation circuit and not to the only thermocouple that monitors the steam outlet temperature. That thermocoupler has it’s own input lead and connection to another of the 4 analogue inputs.

        The little PCB then connects to the 0-3.3vdc 10 bit analogue input of the I/O card that connects to the control computer via the LAN connector.
        .

        • Engineer48

          I have tried to find the 4 pin linear OptoCoulper PCB but have so far had no success.
          .

        • Andre Blum

          yes, I agree that makes more sense.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Andre,

            Left side of the revised plant schematic is how the circuit might be built and wired into the reactor heater circuit.
            .

    • Mats002

      E48, I appreciate your quest and endorse your competence, that goes for all others here scrutinizing the data at hand.

      All the data so far are in the scope of known engineering skills. Obviously Rossi and his team of engineers are professionals in plumbing, energy conversion and control electronics for boiling water, flows and control.

      The ‘Rossi effect’ is hidden in the algoritms programmed into computers combined with special properties of the fuel. None of this can be seen on any picture I am afraid.

      Only experiment can verify if the claimed ‘Rossi effect’ is for real.

      The fact that many have tried many times without getting near the claimed results is disturbing.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Mats,

        What has been tried to date has resulted in many meltdowns.

        I suggest those meltdowns were active LENR reactors that did not have the high speed control systems in place to control them when there is a lot of thermal energy gain and excess heat being folded back into the reactor. So with no high speed control system to control the reactor and no massive water load to damp down rapid reactor temp rise, a otherwise good LENR experiment goes up in a BANG and melts down.
        .

        • Mats002

          A runaway is an energy acceleration, going from a steady energy output of say 10 kWh/h driven by the heat coil to an acceleration of say 10 kWh/s/s until it says ‘bang!’.

          A reaction inside the fuel will push the thermic output seen by the thermocouple. But there will be a time delay from local heat acceleration to reach the TC and then a control signal must choke the runaway. One way to minimize the delay is to have small physical units of fuel but if so there is need for at least one TC per unit. We do not see thousands of TC:s in this setup which rules out this path of solution.

          The other path to solve the runaway problem is to tolerate the ‘bang!’ without destroying the fuel chamber. If a runaway can be contained locally in the fuel without blowing out the fuel chamber then it will work over time. In order to do so I see two possibilities:
          a) Lead away the produced heat from the fuel chamber very fast
          b) Use a container that can tolerate the fast heat acceleration
          A combination of both would be best.

          What kind of container can withstand this? The container must be able to let the radiation out, not hold it inside. At the highest energy levels heat are mainly radiated, less conducted. So the container must be transparent for photon radiation in the infrared range. A cold fuel container getting a thermal runaway inside, will not fast enough be transparent to the radiation and that will lead to failure. The higher working temperature of the container (and fuel), the higher infrared radiation transparency and therefore higher toleration to fast heat acceleration. Maybe the optimal container is a sphere so that radiation go the shortest way through the container material?

          Energy density decrease fast with distance from the original point of production. From known data, is it possible to calculate max heat acceleration to get COP=50?

          Looking at replications getting a ‘bang!’ – what did Rossi do that they didn’t?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats,

            Fulvio did once say that his introduction into the ECat of high speed microcontroller made a very big difference.
            .

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats,

            I also suggest the development of this proposed reactor heater control circuit also rapidly advanced high COP / SSM reactor control.
            .

          • Mats002

            With all due respect E48, I think you underestimate what is needed to make heat from NiH LENR. I have followed the replication efforts close up for years and if it was this easy (if possible at all) to make the ‘Rossi effect’ we would know it by now.

            I understand that the fuel must be pre-processed to be ‘active’ (baked) and this circuit would be for ‘consume’, but recent advances in replications tell a story of more than a heater coil to feed.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            It may be that every replicator that had a BANG had a working LENR reactor for 100msec but then as there were no control systems to VERY QUICKLY back off the reaction rate, it went into thermal meltdown. As temp sensors have a delayed response due to thermal mass, by the time they sense the reactor is getting too hot it is too late and the reactor has melted.

            It may just be that the EMF signal in the heater coil can be monitored to aid in controlling a reactor that is very close to thermal runaway without using slow to react reactor core temperature probes.

            I do know from studying the BlueCat control box and the BlueCat photos, the only temp sensor on the BlueCat is of the outlet steam, which would be a VERY slow response if a reactor when into thermal runaway. So as the steam temperature is way too slow to control the reactor, wonder how the system monitors the reactor’s internal heart beat to stop it going into thermal runaway if the external thermal load declines?

            What DIYers then do, after a BANG, is to build very low thermal gain reactors that they hope can be controlled without high speed electronics and so design themselves into a very low COP environment that struggles to develop any significant COP, simply as they can’t control the reactor if it gets really fired up.
            .

          • Mats002

            Thanks, that was a good answer and I can not recall any open replicator used this feedback signal for runaway control. They should do it to verify or rule out it´s significance.

          • Mats002

            I think this statement of Fulvio is concerning coordinations of many reactors, not how to control one single reactor.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            I have spent quite a lot of hours studying all the BlueCat reactor and control box images. From that I do have a very good idea how the individual reactors are controlled. The large PCB inside the reactor control box is just a LAN based I/O board that either senses various inputs or switches on on off the various relays at the command of the central computer. It has no ability to run a program other than the one that it uses to do the LAN connections and commanded functions.

            Have experience building such control systems, so I know what I’m looking at and how it works.
            .

          • Mats002

            Ok then, let’s take a closer look at your reactor control circuit above, it says to me:

            a) Heater coil is fed by AC, is it normal 110 VAC or some special controlled waveform? I understand it as normal 110 VAC, please confirm.

            b) There is no other input to the reactor than what this heater coil produce

            c) The feedback signal is not a TC, but the distorsion of the normal AC is what will tell the status of the reactor. When the ‘Rossi effect’ inside the reactor form and enhance, the distorsion of the normal AC feed increase.

            d) At a runaway, the distorsion of the normal AC feed is fast enough (and I agree it will be faster than a heat feedback loop) to be in control and choke it.

            e) The runaway is choked by simply cut off power to the heater coil.

            Am I understanding you correct?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            Believe the heater voltage is AC phase to phase so neither lead is neutral. Using high voltage allows for large turn count coils that will boost EMF voltage induction.

            Believe the coil EMF is only sensed when the heater is not powered.

            Believe the central control computer’s software knows what the EMF signal voltage rate of change looks like as a reactor approaches runaway so further heater voltage applications can be stopped before runaway occurs.

            Believe Rossi has 10,000s of hours of EMF coil feedback data to tailor & optimise the reactor control over many operational sequences.
            .

          • Mats002

            Yes I agree this is plausible. Another way is to use DC to drive the heater wire, it is easier (but not hard, probably a high pass filter is enough) to see distortion on a DC feed than on an AC feed.

            Do you think DC works or that AC is needed to get the Rossi effect?

            Also DC would have distortions, the power consumption of the plant will it itself probably make noice on top of an otherwize clean DC feed.

            So in both cases of AC or DC it makes sence to monitor EMF feedback at a moment where the input power is off.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            From what I have seen Rossi uses the highest AC voltage he can get, which is phase to phase.

            I suspect that allows him to wind high turn count coils that increase the induced EMF voltage.

            Next I suspect that at the start of each new SSM run, the system may excite the heater for 1 sec, then monitor the EMF for an expected result and if not quite there, to then give the reactor another 1 sec burst of heater current and repeat the EMF check.
            .

          • Mats002

            Hi E48,

            I would like to fill in that looking at the replicators, European and Russian replicators have been successful in (possible) runaways, while US replicators have been less succesful in producing ‘bangs’.

            I have suggested before that this is because US is max 110 V and Europe/Russia have 220 V (yeah I know it is 120/240 nowadays ;).

            Parkhomov and Me356 have 220 V.

            MFMP had a Bang in US in early of 2015, see http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/02/08/mfmp-analyzes-fuel-mix-causes-of-reactor-failure/ but with another fuel mix than they used in later experiments.

            “in the [MFMP Bang] experiment the ratio of nickel powder to lithium aluminum hydride was 2.5:1 (which is higher than the Parkhomov mix, which was around 10:1), and that there was no free space inside the reactor”

            Most interesting right now is the results of wizkid alias Tom Conover, see http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/07/17/tom-conover-reports-on-replication-efforts/ because he reports repeated runaways. I do not know his power input voltage, do you?

            Do you know of any other ‘bang’ replicators to get data from?

          • Mats002

            About “Using high voltage allows for large turn count coils that will boost EMF voltage induction.”:

            You say that the more turns in the coil. the lower impedance to induce a current from the LENR reaction into said coil? Maybe use two coils, one inner copper coil for feedback and one outer NiChrome for heating?

    • Gerald

      To be honoust, the guy is 65 so he relies on experience. No computer can fill in the caps like a human, but engenering wise he relies on his experience or trust in people so it can’t be to difficult. it’s not an on/off thing. Sorry for for my bad spelling.

      • Gerald

        I’ve said this with the most of respect for Rossi and old guys btw.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Gerald,

        I suggest that to control a reactor that is continually a few second or so away from thermal meltdown is the job for a computer and not a human.
        .

    • Jamie Sibley

      The green circled PCB is likely a 20A Current Sensor. This is supported by the fact that is is fed with large gauge wires and an inline fuse (black component above contactor).

      http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_nkw=20A+ACS712

      The part labeld EMF Filter is a contactor. Similar to this one:
      http://www.factorymation.com/Products/TECO-N-series-IEC-Contactors-6-to-180A/CU-16-F6.html

      • Thomas Kaminski

        It sure looks like the PCB is a current sensor. It could be a 20Amp one, although others might be 30 Amp in the same format. The chip has the same shape as the Allegro ACS712 circuit which is a hall effect sensor. It provides a 0-5 volt out based on a 0-20 amp current in input side. It also provides the isolation so that the power circuit does not fry the low-level analog input on the ETH484 board.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Thomas,

          The Allegro ACS712 is a 8 pin chip and the little PCB uses a 4 pin chip.

          Believe it is a voltage monitor as attached.
          .

      • Engineer48

        Hi Jamie,

        Yes it is a 2 pole circuit breaker that can also be tripped by a signal from the I/O board. Note the red wire that goes to one of the main board relays.

        Would seem that gives 2 layers of protection against a runaway reactor as the central system can shut down the reactor or a short in the heater can shut it down.
        .

  • Engineer48

    This is my conjecture of a possible plant schematic of the 51 Blue Cat backup 1MW reactor system.

    It could apply to the 4 Tiger slab 1MW reactor but I tried to model the 51 Blue Cats as I have more detailed images of that plant to study.

    What I find intriguing is the small PCB that appears to monitor the EMF induced into the heater coil from the EM fields generated by the “Rossi Effect” LENR reaction. The output from the small PCB is monitored by the larger PCB in the reactor control box which is then monitored by the remote LAN connected main control computer.

    Comments most welcome.

    • Andre Blum

      the small pcb is almost certainly a breakout board with a thermocouple amplifier / converter to i2c or spi output, containing e.g. a max6675 or max31855 ic.

      • Andre Blum
        • Andre Blum

          a breakout board being a single IC put on a minimal size pcb with the essential IC leads exposed to pins or clamps, popular in the arduino and raspberry pi communities for direct wiring to relevant I/O pins and available on ebay and electronics sites like adafruit and sparkfun. saves you from having to design pcb’s and soldering when wanting to use these chips.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        I do not think so. If you look at the wiring as shown by Engineer48, the output of the pcb goes to the analog in on the eth484 ethernet relay board. Look at the eth484 analog in documentation here:

        http://www.robot-electronics.co.uk/files/eth484.pdf

        You will note that the signal input does not support i2c or spi. It might, however, be a chip that converts the low thermocouple signals to a 0-3.3Volt signal for the analog in. More than likely it is a opto-isolated circuit to separate the high voltage potential of the heater circuit from the low level eth484 controller. Such opto-isolators are common in industrial automation.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Andre,

        The small PCB uses a 4 pin linear OptoCoupler. The images are very clear it is a 4 pin chip as attached. Have designed in these OptoCouplers before so I know what they look like and how they function.

        Plus the wiring connections on the green connector side are to the heater excitation circuit and not to the only thermocouple that monitors the steam outlet temperature. That thermocoupler has it’s own input lead and connection to another of the 4 analogue inputs.

        The little PCB then connects to the 0-3.3vdc 10 bit analogue input of the I/O card that connects to the control computer via the LAN connector.
        .

        • Engineer48

          I have tried to find the 4 pin linear OptoCoulper PCB but have so far had no success.
          .

        • Andre Blum

          yes, I agree that makes more sense.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Andre,

            Left side of the revised plant schematic is how the circuit might be built and wired into the reactor heater circuit.
            .

    • Mats002

      E48, I appreciate your quest and endorse your competence, that goes for all others here scrutinizing the data at hand.

      All the data so far are in the scope of known engineering skills. Obviously Rossi and his team of engineers are professionals in plumbing, energy conversion and control electronics for boiling water, flows and control.

      The ‘Rossi effect’ is hidden in the algoritms programmed into computers combined with special properties of the fuel. None of this can be seen on any picture I am afraid.

      Only experiment can verify if the claimed ‘Rossi effect’ is for real.

      The fact that many have tried many times without getting near the claimed results is disturbing.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Mats,

        What has been tried to date has resulted in many meltdowns.

        I suggest those meltdowns were active LENR reactors that did not have the high speed control systems in place to control them when there is a lot of thermal energy gain and excess heat being folded back into the reactor. So with no high speed control system to control the reactor and no massive water load to damp down rapid reactor temp rise, a otherwise good LENR experiment goes up in a BANG and melts down.
        .

        • Mats002

          A runaway is an energy acceleration, going from a steady energy output of say 10 kWh/h driven by the heat coil to an acceleration of say 10 kWh/s/s until it says ‘bang!’.

          A reaction inside the fuel will push the thermic output seen by the thermocouple. But there will be a time delay from local heat acceleration to reach the TC and then a control signal must choke the runaway. One way to minimize the delay is to have small physical units of fuel but if so there is need for at least one TC per unit. We do not see thousands of TC:s in this setup which rules out this path of solution.

          The other path to solve the runaway problem is to tolerate the ‘bang!’ without destroying the fuel chamber. If a runaway can be contained locally in the fuel without blowing out the fuel chamber then it will work over time. In order to do so I see two possibilities:
          a) Lead away the produced heat from the fuel chamber very fast
          b) Use a container that can tolerate the fast heat acceleration
          A combination of both would be best.

          What kind of container can withstand this? The container must be able to let the radiation out, not hold it inside. At the highest energy levels heat are mainly radiated, less conducted. So the container must be transparent for photon radiation in the infrared range. A cold fuel container getting a thermal runaway inside, will not fast enough be transparent to the radiation and that will lead to failure. The higher working temperature of the container (and fuel), the higher infrared radiation transparency and therefore higher toleration to fast heat acceleration. Maybe the optimal container is a sphere so that radiation go the shortest way through the container material?

          Energy density decrease fast with distance from the original point of production. From known data, is it possible to calculate max heat acceleration to get COP=50?

          Looking at replications getting a ‘bang!’ – what did Rossi do that they didn’t?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats,

            Fulvio did once say that his introduction into the ECat of high speed microcontroller made a very big difference.
            .

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats,

            Suggest the development of this proposed reactor heater control and heater coil EMF detection circuit may also have rapidly advanced high COP / SSM reactor control.
            .

          • Mats002

            With all due respect E48, I think you underestimate what is needed to make heat from NiH LENR. I have followed the replication efforts close up for years and if it was this easy (if possible at all) to make the ‘Rossi effect’ we would know it by now.

            I understand that the fuel must be pre-processed to be ‘active’ (baked) and this circuit would be for ‘consume’, but recent advances in replications tell a story of more than a heater coil to feed.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            It may be that every replicator that had a BANG had a working LENR reactor for 100msec but then as there were no control systems to VERY QUICKLY back off the reaction rate, it went into thermal meltdown. As temp sensors have a delayed response due to thermal mass, by the time they sense the reactor is getting too hot it is too late and the reactor has melted.

            It may just be that the EMF signal in the heater coil can be monitored to aid in controlling a reactor that is very close to thermal runaway without using slow to react reactor core temperature probes.

            I do know from studying the BlueCat control box and the BlueCat photos, the only temp sensor on the BlueCat is of the outlet steam, which would be a VERY slow response if a reactor when into thermal runaway. So as the steam temperature is way too slow to control the reactor, wonder how the system monitors the reactor’s internal heart beat to stop it going into thermal runaway if the external thermal load declines?

            What DIYers then do, after a BANG, is to build very low thermal gain reactors that they hope can be controlled without high speed electronics and so design themselves into a very low COP environment that struggles to develop any significant COP, simply as they can’t control the reactor if it gets really fired up.
            .

          • Mats002

            Thanks, that was a good answer and I can not recall any open replicator used this feedback signal for runaway control. They should do it to verify or rule out it´s significance.

          • Mats002

            I think this statement of Fulvio is concerning coordinations of many reactors, not how to control one single reactor.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            I have spent quite a lot of hours studying all the BlueCat reactor and control box images. From that I do have a very good idea how the individual reactors are controlled. The large PCB inside the reactor control box is just a LAN based I/O board that either senses various inputs or switches on on off the various relays at the command of the central computer. It has no ability to run a program other than the one that it uses to do the LAN connections and commanded functions.

            Have experience building such control systems, so I know what I’m looking at and how it works.
            .

          • Mats002

            Ok then, let’s take a closer look at your reactor control circuit above, it says to me:

            a) Heater coil is fed by AC, is it normal 110 VAC or some special controlled waveform? I understand it as normal 110 VAC, please confirm.

            b) There is no other input to the reactor than what this heater coil produce

            c) The feedback signal is not a TC, but the distortion of the normal AC is what will tell the status of the reactor. When the ‘Rossi effect’ inside the reactor form and enhance, the distortion of the normal AC feed increase.

            d) At a runaway, the distortion of the normal AC feed is fast enough (and I agree it will be faster than a heat feedback loop) to be in control and choke it.

            e) The runaway is choked by simply cut off power to the heater coil.

            Am I understanding you correct?

            Edit: I now see your answer a few posts down that confirm most of this, but please answer here too for clearity 🙂

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            Believe the heater voltage is AC phase to phase so neither lead is neutral. Using high voltage allows for large turn count coils that will boost EMF voltage induction.

            Believe the coil EMF is only sensed when the heater is not powered.

            Believe the central control computer’s software knows what the EMF signal voltage rate of change looks like as a reactor approaches runaway so further heater voltage applications can be stopped before runaway occurs.

            Believe Rossi has 10,000s of hours of EMF coil feedback data to tailor & optimise the reactor control over many operational sequences.
            .

          • Mats002

            Yes I agree this is plausible. Another way is to use DC to drive the heater wire, it is easier to see distortion on a DC feed than on an AC feed. AC is not hard, probably a high pass filter is enough.

            Do you think DC works or that AC is needed to get the Rossi effect?

            Also DC would have distortions, the power consumption of the plant will in itself probably make noice on top of an otherwize clean DC feed.

            So in both cases of AC or DC it makes sense to monitor EMF feedback at a moment where the input power is off.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            From what I have seen Rossi uses the highest AC voltage he can get, which is phase to phase.

            I suspect that allows him to wind high turn count coils that increase the induced EMF voltage.

            Next I suspect that at the start of each new SSM run, the system may excite the heater for 1 sec, then monitor the EMF for an expected result and if not quite there, to then give the reactor another 1 sec burst of heater current and repeat the EMF check.
            .

          • Mats002

            Hi E48,

            I would like to fill in that looking at the replicators, European and Russian replicators have been successful in (possible) runaways, while US replicators have been less succesful in producing ‘bangs’.

            I have suggested before that this is because US is max 110 V and Europe/Russia have 220 V (yeah I know it is 120/240 nowadays ;).

            Parkhomov and Me356 have 220 V.

            MFMP had a Bang in US in early of 2015, see http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/02/08/mfmp-analyzes-fuel-mix-causes-of-reactor-failure/ but with another fuel mix than they used in later experiments.

            “in the [MFMP Bang] experiment the ratio of nickel powder to lithium aluminum hydride was 2.5:1 (which is higher than the Parkhomov mix, which was around 10:1), and that there was no free space inside the reactor”

            Most interesting right now is the results of wizkid alias Tom Conover, see http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/07/17/tom-conover-reports-on-replication-efforts/ because he reports repeated runaways. I do not know his power input voltage, do you?

            Do you know of any other ‘bang’ replicators to get data from?

          • Mats002

            About “Using high voltage allows for large turn count coils that will boost EMF voltage induction.”:

            You say that the more turns in the coil. the lower impedance to induce a current from the LENR reaction into said coil? Maybe use two coils, one inner copper coil for feedback and one outer NiChrome for heating?

      • Bruce__H

        If the Rossi effect is hidden in the algorithms programmed into computers then what does this mean for the US patent Rossi was granted in Aug 2015? If the description in that patent is insufficient to replicate the Rossi effect then it is invalid.

    • Gerald

      To be honoust, the guy is 65 so he relies on experience. No computer can fill in the caps like a human, but engenering wise he relies on his experience or trust in people so it can’t be to difficult. it’s not an on/off thing. Sorry for for my bad spelling.

      • Gerald

        I’ve said this with the most of respect for Rossi and old guys btw.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Gerald,

        Suggest that to control a LENR thermal gain reactor that is continually a few second or so away from thermal meltdown is the job for a computer and not a human.

        Believe the central computer connects to and controls each individual reactor 10 – 20 times a second.
        .

    • Jamie Sibley

      The green circled PCB is likely a 20A Current Sensor. This is supported by the fact that is is fed with large gauge wires and an inline fuse (black component above contactor).

      http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_nkw=20A+ACS712

      The part labeld EMF Filter is a contactor. Similar to this one:
      http://www.factorymation.com/Products/TECO-N-series-IEC-Contactors-6-to-180A/CU-16-F6.html

      • Thomas Kaminski

        It sure looks like the PCB is a current sensor. It could be a 20Amp one, although others might be 30 Amp in the same format. The chip has the same shape as the Allegro ACS712 circuit which is a hall effect sensor. It provides a 0-5 volt out based on a 0-20 amp current in input side. It also provides the isolation so that the power circuit does not fry the low-level analog input on the ETH484 board.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Thomas,

          The Allegro ACS712 is a 8 pin chip and the little PCB uses a 4 pin chip.

          Believe it is a voltage monitor as attached.
          .

      • Engineer48

        Hi Jamie,

        Yes it is a 2 pole circuit breaker that can also be tripped by a signal from the I/O board. Note the red wire that goes to one of the main board relays.

        Would seem that gives 2 layers of protection against a runaway reactor as the central system can shut down the reactor or a short in the heater can shut it down.
        .

        • roseland67

          48,
          I understood the “runaway” to be thermally induced
          and not electrical, Is that correct?
          Once ideal conditions are met, electrical input no longer matters, (SSM)?
          With X electrical input the thermal output increases,
          And once attained, the electrical output does NOT increase
          But the thermal output does, so there should not be a need for additional
          Protection of the electrical circuit?

  • Obvious

    Sorry, missed you post in the flurry.
    These are I suppose educated guesses. You can work out the measurements, roughly, and it fits together. If the vent were new, then why two on the roof for one pipe? There are two bathrooms listed in the real estate brochures. The roof hasn’t changed since the air photos show it in enough detail to tell. The buildings were built the same, when new. (Maybe minor differences). Compare the roof above each unit. The same. Who puts a bathroom in the office area without a fan? In that humidity? LOL.

  • sam

    Does anyone have an opinion on Jed Rothwell comment on Ego Out blog.
    Jed RothwellAugust 13, 2016 at 2:49 PM
    Peter,

    In the latest Rossi exchange, Frank Acland asked:

    “When you say that the Customer ‘used the heat’ does this mean that the manufacturing process was endothermic — i.e. the heat delivered by the E-Cat was absorbed in the customer’s production process.”

    Rossi said “yes.”

    You are a chemical engineer. You know as well as anyone there is no such thing as an endothermic industrial process that magically swallows up 1 MW and makes it vanish. At long last, can you not see that Rossi is lying? This is yet another blatant, extravagant, preposterous lie. Why do you believe him? Have you lost all common sense? Have you forgotten everything about chemistry and physics?

    You need to get a grip on reality. Rossi has no excess heat. It is all a lie. The evidence is overwhelming, and now he is reduced to making claims that any sane chemical engineer knows are impossible.
    Thanks

    • Obvious

      Something that drinks back 1 million Joules per second per second would be equivalent in energy to an exploded grenade throwing itself back together every 0.75 seconds or so.

      • Ged

        Or making several dozen kg of foam, I guess.

        In the end, most chemical processes are sum total endothermic, which is why we need to use electricity/heat to drive them. Metal smelting, waste processing, material extraction, hydrocarbon refining…. Anything we need power to do, is endothermic for the overall process, obviously.

        What isn’t? Combustion, mostly.

        • Obvious

          In that case, simply contain the heat equivalent of an exploding grenade every 0.75 seconds.
          Or maybe a hamburger being burned every 4 seconds… didn’t we work that one out one day?

          • Ged

            We just did a bunch of the math below, so why drive in circles? Everything is just about scale. If you have enough burger material, it will take much longer to burn than 4 seconds, eh?

            So you have a (one of many!) hypothetical budget: +1 MW in; -250 kW cooling, -750 kW material production out.

          • Obvious

            Just to tidy up this tangled thread…
            I have done several versions with high-end endothermic reactions, air flow, water down the drain… trying to get the stuff in and out of the warehouse. The cfm alone is a windstorm, and it barely does the job, The reactants are WAY worse in volume. They can’t go in and out, like humid air (rocketing out of a vent) so easily. Several thousands of forklift trips a day back and forth.
            It is horribly insufficient. By orders of magnitude.

          • Ged

            Now that is much better, that is what we want to derive. Wind speeds, material processing needs in and out, discharge volumes, etc. for the different combinations that could possibly account, and just how possible each is or not.

            If one scales down materials to be within the order of magnitude one wants, we can see how much of other dissipative methods must take over in the budget, and their physical rammifications and so forth.

          • Zeddicus23

            Rossi stated that the excess heat was vented.

          • Obvious

            Then around we go. What was the update to this page anyways?

          • Ged

            It’s just a budget, Obvious. What is this mental resistance here? Cognitive dissinence?

            Can we dissipate 1 MW with what we visibly see so far with just air? Yes, possible, though doesn’t mean it was set up to be done or was done.

            Are there chemical processes that can absorb the 1 MW power in at a mass density that makes it possible to handle and not flood the place with materials? Yes, apparently there are several, and Bob pointed out a good two. Doesn’t mean the place is set up for those or that it happened.

            Now, instead of 100% one or the other, realistically it’s a ratio of the two.

          • Obvious

            There is a definite cognitive dissonance here.
            And more dissonance than cognition.

          • Ged

            🙁 what is up with you now? We were just investigating possibilities, and instead of math now it is just rhetoric you seem to be making. This defeats any purpose for testing what is within the realm of possibility or not.

          • Obvious

            Why jump over a hundred fantastic hurdles?

            Huizenga only wanted three miracles.

          • Ged

            We don’t need any miracles. Again, rhetoric. We just need the math of what is possible and what is required in different scenarios. That is how we can test the assumptions against the evidence we have. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

      • 1 million Joules per second.

    • Robert Dorr

      First it was the flow meter that couldn’t possibly work properly, wrong!! Then it was the pipes were half full, wrong again!! Now it’s Rossi customer couldn’t possibly have a endothermic process that uses thermal energy at the rate required. Time for strike three!

      • Obvious

        Well then, find the magic endothermic reactant that doesn’t require dragging in and out at least 140000 kg a day of something.

        • Ged

          We just did below, together.

          It isn’t just one chemical equation by itself here, but many, that make up most production processes.

          E.g. Heat to drive polymerization reaction + heat to dry out solvents + heat to cure material, etc. Total budget much larger than any single part, of course. This too weust consider.

          • Obvious

            No, we used the total embodied energy. Most of that energy is embodied somewhere else, like an oil refinery, etc.

          • Ged

            That’s fair then. The question turns to what percentage of the embodied process is possible with what we see present? Then we can constrain what possible percentage of the energy/material budget could be met by that at realistic material loads, with the remaining needing cooling. Then we can compare that model to the evidence as it comes and refine and see if it matches within bounds or. Was clearly not what was done (that is, the hypothesis that 1 MW was not produced and not the budget at work).

            There could always be new evidence that could dash it all, but so far there isn’t a solid conclusion, just that things are apparently possible.

          • Obvious

            The best comparison of embodiment elsewhere, and heat losses in the process, etc. that is simplest, we have already done.

            A pure endothermic reaction.

            Everything else is a reaction on stilts.

          • Ged

            Alright, let’s forget all we were looking at and circle back to. That idea, ignoring mechanical work as well. Do you need to absorb all 1 MW (or any of it)? No. For the current actual hard evidence we have so far, though that could change. So how much could you reasonably absorb within material processing limits with the rest dissipated by cooling?

          • Obvious

            This is what is driving me crazy. It is not 1 MW.
            It is 1 MW per second per second. 24 hours a day. For a year.
            (Sometimes 3/4 of a MW per second per second).
            If it takes 140000 kg of ice a day to get rid of it, that is impossible.

            Maybe only 1/2 has to be dealt with. Still 70000 kg of ice or chemical endotherm equivalent…. and so on.

            No matter what one might substitute for ice, the total overall mass won’t change much. Materials, atoms, molecules whatever can only hold so much heat or the heat energy equivalent. It can only be removed at those masses whether by atmosphere, trucks, conveyor belts underground, you name it. The transport budget, by whatever means, is unreal for the size or area we talking about.

            And that is the point Jed was making.

          • Ged

            That’s a fair point, and it helps us constrain the system. But going crazy over it is unnecessary. We don’t need all 1 MW per second per second absorbed in a reaction or series of steps (phase change then heating then evaporation would be one such series, or phase change and polymerization and evaporation, etc; more total energy than any one part of course).

            We don’t need that for trying to understand what could or could not be going on, other than phase changing materials like ice alone is just not realistic for taking care of 100% of the energy due to material input constraints. Not happening. So we have that.

            What we need is simply the budget, like any good pie chart. How much could possibly go in to reactions or hearing or such based on what evidence of possible material transport rates there are? Then, what percentage needs to be dissipated, by fluid flow (e.g. ground loop, discharge) or air flow? Then, taking that budget and different proportioning models of that budge it, we can start looking in an informed way for what other evidence there is that supports or disproved the budget model–till the point where we can say the budget is possible with what we currently know, or that it isn’t possible to have such a big energy budget with what we currently know.

            That is the goal and purpose of examining evidence in the first place. Don’t let pure rhetoric from others cause one to lose sight of the overall purpose of evaluating in the first place.

          • Robert Dorr

            Wouldn’t that be 1 MWH as in Mega Watt Hour not 1 MWS as in Mega Watt Seconds. When you say a house uses 20 KW per day that means 20 Kilo Watt Hours not 20 Kilo Watts per second.

          • Nothing can use 20 kW per day. It uses 20 kW. Period. Continuously (power).
            Which makes 20kWh (energy) per hour. Etc.

          • Robert Dorr

            Sure you can use 20 KW (total) over a 24 hour period.

          • Yes. That is 20 kW for a day. (20 kW * 24 = 480 kWh).
            Not PER day.
            Edit: You use an amount of ENRGY per time (day e.g.).

          • Robert Dorr

            That’s not what I”m saying. I mean 20 Kilo Watt Hours. i.e. slightly less than 1 Kilo Watt per hour.

          • Right.
            That is 20 kWh (per day e.g.).
            Not 20 kW.

          • Robert Dorr

            My assumption was and maybe I’m wrong, is that Rossi’s plant produced 1 MW per hour of thermal energy. What is the correct amount

          • 1 MWh (energy) per hour. Which is 1 MW (power), on average.
            Edit: Thermal, in both cases.

          • Think of power (W) like speed (m/s, mph) and energy (Wh, Ws, J) like distance (meters, miles).
            You can keep a certain speed constantly, and after some time you have covered a certain distance.
            You can output or input a certain power constantly (watts) and after some time you have produced or consumed a certain amount of energy (Wh, Ws, J).

          • Robert Dorr

            I understand. You just use the terminology more formally than I do. Which is a good thing, less confusing in the long run.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I like to explain it this way:

            Consider a muscle car. “Power” is what you feel when you stomp on the accelerator and it pushes you into the seat. It is a rate of energy usage. Energy is what you get by integrating power over time. For a muscle car, it is the gas you pump at the end of your “power” trip.

          • ??
            It is 1MW of power.
            Or 1 MWs per second.
            Or 1 MJ per second.
            (What is 1 MW per second per second?)

          • Obvious

            I am trying, without mincing words too badly, to convey that these are MWh we are talking about. Not a measly 1 MW.

            A million Joules a second, every second, for every minute, for every hour, for every day, for every month, etc. (sometimes less)

            Increasing inexorably, unless removed at least as fast.

          • Right.

          • Ged

            So what? You make it sound so dramatic. If you are a trained cyclist, you produce 4-6 W/kg once deep in an endurance race, power your body must dissipate, and does, on top of your Basal Metabolic Rate. You don’t spontaneously combust due to these joules per second, because you do cool fast enough through convection and evaporation and intake of cool water periodically that has to be brought to body temp.

            Just energy budgets. No different than here in concept, just scale.

          • Obvious

            That is a lot of cyclists in our warehouse.

          • Ged

            Then guess they will need a lot of water bottles 😉

          • Michael W Wolf

            I know, isn’t the ecat amazing! 🙂 You should be happy at the possibilities.

          • GiveADogABone

            1MW is a fixed rate of energy transfer and no messing.
            1MWhr/hr allows for a wide variation of the instantaneous power but the average over one hour comes out at 1MW.
            1MWs/s implies very high fluctuation rates within the timespan of 1 second.
            The last two are really statistics.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            It is 1MWh/hr of energy.

          • Gerald

            Seen datacenters that can deliver 15MW of energy and thus cool it also. Never seen an icecream man. 😉 But yes 1 MW is a lot and if there are no chillers a room about 600 square meters will heat up pretty quick. Rossi’s place had a high ceiling, that helps.

          • roseland67

            GED,

            Is this process you describe what is happening in the building?
            If it is, great, if not, it is simply another assumption to fit your argument.

        • Michael W Wolf

          They have figured all the heat could be vented out. JM used what they needed and vented the rest out. Jed is now short circuiting and sounding very frantic. IH has done nothing to help there case yet. Calling people frauds, then claiming they have to be frauds because there is too much heat and there is not, is ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst. Are you kidding me? They have accused people of serious crimes, where’s the beef? This is getting ridiculous.

          • Obvious

            All the heat could be vented out if you evacuate the warehouse of air, oh, about once a minute.
            Hold onto your hat and don’t go anywhere near the fans. The Home Dept bathroom fan story….ROFLMFAO!
            How long does it take to get the stink out of a room, let alone portions of a MWh?
            Suck it out through 6″ ducting? Probably get red hot just from the air flow.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Wrong. A good portion of the heat could have been used, dumped or cooled in many ways. Point is Jed and IH say it can’t be possible, which means Rossi didn’t produce any excess heat. That is completely false. And they are trying to call it proof. I am getting the feeling the ecat works and IH is not credible anymore. If Bass comes forward, it will be over. Penon will be justified in suing civilly.

          • Obvious

            Well good luck with that.
            I wouldn’t mind if the thing worked. But I am not counting on it this time.

          • roseland67

            Michael,

            And as usual, Rossi has supplied a grand total of no answers as to how it was done. He simply lets everyone make assumptions and guess.

            This would not give away any secrets to his Ecat, but would only make his story more plausible.
            He could simply say, 20% of the heat went into the product, 20% went up the roof vents, 40% went down the drain and 20% went out the garage door.

        • GiveADogABone

          CH4+H20->CO+3H2 -206kJ/mol
          and no magic and a lot less than 140000kg

          • Obvious

            And no waste heat?
            The heat goes into the reaction nearly perfectly?
            How many kg per day, reactants and product, BTW?
            I looked over one of the posts on this, but did not find it compelling.
            Certainly kudos are in order for giving it a go.

          • GiveADogABone

            And no waste heat?
            Surprisingly little

            The heat goes into the reaction nearly perfectly?
            Yes

            How many kg per day, reactants and product, BTW?
            Precise numbers are a problem but must tie in to 36,000kg/day of steam from the E-cat.
            Looking at the equation, the methane might be of the order of 30,000kg/day (two lorry loads when converted to hydrocarbons.)

            I looked over one of the posts on this, but did not find it compelling.
            I’ve only just posted this, so another go?

            Certainly kudos are in order for giving it a go.
            The only real problem so far seems to be the lack of evidence of a gas pipe.

            websearch site:www.e-catworld.com SMR+FT
            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/14/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endothermic/

            Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was … – E-Cat World
            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/…/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endotherm…14 Aug 2016 – Consider a transport container that contains the whole production process of SMR(Steam Methane Reforming) and FT(Fischer-Tropsch).

      • GiveADogABone

        Number three :-
        websearch site:www.e-catworld.com SMR+FT
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/14/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endothermic/
        Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was … – E-Cat World
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/…/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endotherm…14 Aug 2016 – Inputs to the SMR+FT container : 1a: Air for combustion @ 20C 1b: Methane for combustion @ 20C 2: Methane for process raw material @ 20C

    • Ged

      They aren’t making more heat than is going in, right? Then yes, whatever they are doing is endothermic, or just dissipative.

    • roseland67

      Sam,
      Jed is a smart guy, knows his stuff, just like many other engineers/experimenters here. His opinions cannot be dismissed out of hand simply because they do not
      Agree with the masses.
      Only replicated proof by multiple experimenters of Energy out > Energy in
      Will change the world, nothing else, not faith, not insults, not reviews of pictures of roofs, nothing

      • wpj

        Pity he is not an engineer; he a Japanese scholar!

      • Engineer48

        Hi Roselands,

        Jed is very PRO LENR, just not Rossi’s LENR tech.

        But when he lead us engineers on a wild goose chase, claiming he knew stuff about the flow meter we did not and then we got the flow meter specs and learned he had nothing, well he then shifted gear and started making claims about 1/2 filled pipes and air in the water system, again claiming to know secret stuff. Well the last time he claimed to know secret stuff about the flow meter, it exploded in his face when the real data was available.

        Jed as do most of us believe LENR does work, in fact there is no doubt about it. But it is not a easy cake to bake as the recipe can be very complex.

        So Jed attacks Rossi alone and makes not a lot of heavily negative comments about other LENR researchers.
        .

        • TOUSSAINT francois

          Hi Engineer48

          Here on this blog, your are making a great job doing justice to andrea rossi.
          So many trolls sould be ashamed

          • Obvious

            Nice of you to join us. A votre santé !

      • Chapman

        [ OK Frank, I cleaned it up. This should be less offensive, but still conveys the point. I am reposting it here after editing what I think you found unacceptable – NOT as an act of belligerence defying your moderation, but rather respecting your decision that it was previously excessive in its direct belittling of the man, and attempting to politely comply by re-assessing my verbiage and eliminating the outright insults. Sorry, I am prone to overly inflammatory expressions, but I DO accept correction from well meaning individuals when they point such out. 🙂 ]

        I find absolutely nothing to support your assertion that Jeb is “a smart guy who knows his stuff”.

        True, he is fluent in several languages – but so are most children, by 5 years of age, across europe. Multilingualism is not an indication of IQ, just training and environment.

        But based upon his recent statements and arguments, it is clear he does NOT know his stuff, as he is repeatedly proven laughably incorrect on technical matters that he proclaims!

        Jeb is just a translator, who followed a hobby level interest in science and started a website as a document repository. He then used that site to sell extremely fringe science publications side-by-side with respectable science materials – thus showing he did not have the capacity to differentiate between the two – further proof he does not “know his stuff”.

        Currently, Jeb is just an echo chamber – repeating things he has been told or read, without the faculty to separate the wheat from the chaff. All of this, when added to the endless attacks and personal slanders against Rossi, and the ridiculous repeating of all the IH propaganda and FUD (which he MUST know is contrived nonsense) belies your claim. Call him what you will – but certainly not “a smart guy who knows his stuff”.

        Therefor, I most certainly CAN, and adamantly DO, dismiss his opinions out of hand – as any intelligent person with ANY discernment should/will/MUST do!

        • roseland67

          Of course you don’t,
          Wondering what you will believe next week

    • Seems Jed interpreted Rossi’s statement to mean all of the heat was consumed by the customers process and no venting was necessary — and then went on a rant.

      Nobody else thinks that. Even Rossi said that the excess heat was vented.

      • Ged

        And I still think Rossi was referencing “used” as being what was sent from the plant to the customer; and we have not had any full pictures of the 1MW plant if there is emergency venting over there, which would address his second point too. His English is just not that reliable, but hey, if it feeds obvious bias, I guess it is ok to go off then deep end.

        • Chapman

          Thank you for pointing this out.

          Following Rossi is like reading Zephirs writing. I originally thought Zephir was spouting a bunch of sci-fi nonsense like Axil, until I found out English is a second language and he is struggling to translate technical ideas across his internal language barrier. A simple substitution of keywords which have the same dictionary definition can still convey an inaccurate idea of the thought being expressed. But if you are not playing “grammer police” and intentionally trying to find a reason to nail the guy, it is pretty easy to follow what was meant, once you catch on to what is happening.

          Misinterpreting something said under such circumstances – on a technicality of translated word choice – is unfair, and intellectually dishonest.

          I understand exactly what Rossi is SAYING… Just as exchanges with Zephir are now among my favorite interactions here at ECW.

          Rossi gets some words crossed up due to incorrect word issues, true. But Jeb is highly fluent in several languages, and no doubt could recite Robert Frost in Mandarin Chinese – and yet he can’t seem to make SENSE no matter what he says! Go figure…

      • Engineer48

        Hi Andy,

        Might I suggest this is a probable result.

        Some of the heat went into the product.
        Some of the waste heat went up the shiny pipe.
        Some of the waste heat was removed by the ceiling exhaust fan above the JMP plant.
        Some of the waste heat increased the temperature of some amount of city water and went down the drain.

        Why is it way some here try to get rid of ALL the heat via one means?

        Please folks, there is an industrial process happening and the heat energy will be dealt with by the above standard industrial methods as applied by the industrial plant engineers that designed the temporary plant.
        .

        • Thomas Kaminski

          And some of the heat was conducted through the building envelope (walls, floor, ceiling).

    • GiveADogABone

      I have put my explanation onto the thread below :-
      websearch site:www.e-catworld.com SMR+FT
      Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was … – E-Cat World
      http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/…/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endotherm…14 Aug 2016 – Inputs to the SMR+FT container : 1a: Air for combustion @ 20C 1b: Methane for combustion @ 20C 2: Methane for process raw material @ 20C

    • GiveADogABone

      Yes.
      websearch site:www.e-catworld.com SMR+FT
      Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was … – E-Cat World
      http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/…/ro...
      Aug 2016 – Consider a transport container that contains the whole
      production process of SMR(Steam Methane Reforming) and
      FT(Fischer-Tropsch).

      I have also posted a reply on Ego Out.

  • sam

    Does anyone have an opinion on Jed Rothwell comment on Ego Out blog.
    Jed RothwellAugust 13, 2016 at 2:49 PM
    Peter,

    In the latest Rossi exchange, Frank Acland asked:

    “When you say that the Customer ‘used the heat’ does this mean that the manufacturing process was endothermic — i.e. the heat delivered by the E-Cat was absorbed in the customer’s production process.”

    Rossi said “yes.”

    You are a chemical engineer. You know as well as anyone there is no such thing as an endothermic industrial process that magically swallows up 1 MW and makes it vanish. At long last, can you not see that Rossi is lying? This is yet another blatant, extravagant, preposterous lie. Why do you believe him? Have you lost all common sense? Have you forgotten everything about chemistry and physics?

    You need to get a grip on reality. Rossi has no excess heat. It is all a lie. The evidence is overwhelming, and now he is reduced to making claims that any sane chemical engineer knows are impossible.
    Thanks

    • Obvious

      Something that drinks back 1 million Joules per second per second would be equivalent in energy to an exploded grenade throwing itself back together every 0.75 seconds or so.

      • Ged

        Or making several dozen kg of foam, I guess.

        In the end, most chemical processes are sum total endothermic in that sense they take more power than they make, which is why we need to use electricity/heat to drive them. Metal smelting, waste processing, material extraction, hydrocarbon refining…. Anything we need power to do, is endothermic for the overall process in that sense, obviously.

        What isn’t? Combustion, mostly.

        • Obvious

          In that case, simply contain the heat equivalent of an exploding grenade every 0.75 seconds.
          Or maybe a hamburger being burned every 4 seconds… didn’t we work that one out one day?

          • Ged

            We just did a bunch of the math below, so why drive in circles? Everything is just about scale. If you have enough burger material, it will take much longer to burn than 4 seconds, eh?

            So you have a (one of many!) hypothetical budget: +1 MW in; -250 kW cooling, -750 kW material production out.

          • Obvious

            Just to tidy up this tangled thread…
            I have done several versions with high-end endothermic reactions, air flow, water down the drain… trying to get the stuff in and out of the warehouse. The cfm alone is a windstorm, and it barely does the job, The reactants are WAY worse in volume. They can’t go in and out, like humid air (rocketing out of a vent) so easily. Several thousands of forklift trips a day back and forth.
            It is horribly insufficient. By orders of magnitude.

          • Sorry but i want a second, third and fourth opinion. I don’t even see you showing your work on these calculations.

            All your many posts and yet sadly very little clarity and usefulness over all.

          • Obvious

            We already did the ice calculation, and the air cfm calculation.
            Just mix and match. That will get one in the ballpark.

            Probably a spreadsheet with sliders for enthalpy, mass of reactant, air volume, humiidity and T, etc., that balances out the energy budget automatically to 1 MWh increments could be made.
            But the quick and dirty calculations are not looking like that degree of finesse is required.

            The whole thing is a matter of moving mass around to get the heat out.
            Lots of mass, as it turns out.

          • Ged

            Now that is much better, that is what we want to derive. Wind speeds, material processing needs in and out, discharge volumes, etc. for the different combinations that could possibly account, and just how possible each is or not.

            If one scales down materials to be within the order of magnitude one wants, we can see how much of other dissipative methods must take over in the budget, and their physical rammifications and so forth.

          • Zeddicus23

            Rossi stated that the excess heat was vented.

          • Obvious

            Then around we go. What was the update to this page anyways?

          • Ged

            It’s just a budget, Obvious. What is this mental resistance here? Cognitive dissonance?

            Can we dissipate 1 MW with what we visibly see so far with just air? Yes, apparently possible, though doesn’t mean it was set up to be done or was done.

            Are there chemical processes that can absorb the 1 MW power in at a mass density that makes it possible to handle and not flood the place with materials? Yes, apparently there are several, and Bob pointed out a good two. Doesn’t mean the place is set up for those or that it happened.

            Now, instead of 100% one or the other, realistically it’s a ratio of the two.

          • Obvious

            There is a definite cognitive dissonance here.
            And more dissonance than cognition.
            (Edit: I wasn’t directly referring to you, Ged, BTW. Sorry if it looked that way.)

          • Ged

            🙁 what is up with you now? We were just investigating possibilities, and instead of math now it is just rhetoric you seem to be making. This defeats any purpose for testing what is within the realm of possibility or not.

          • Obvious

            Why jump over a hundred fantastic hurdles?

            Huizenga only wanted three miracles.

          • Ged

            We don’t need any miracles. Again, rhetoric. We just need the math of what is possible and what is required in different scenarios. That is how we can test the assumptions against the evidence we have. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

      • 1 million Joules per second.

        • roseland67

          Mats,

          Joules implies time,

    • Robert Dorr

      First it was the flow meter that couldn’t possibly work properly, wrong!! Then it was the pipes were half full, wrong again!! Now it’s Rossi customer couldn’t possibly have a endothermic process that uses thermal energy at the rate required. Time for strike three!

      • Obvious

        Well then, find the magic endothermic reactant that doesn’t require dragging in and out at least 140000 kg a day of something.

        • Ged

          We just did below, together.

          It isn’t just one chemical equation by itself here, but many, that make up most production processes.

          E.g. Heat to drive polymerization reaction + heat to dry out solvents + heat to cure material, etc. Total budget much larger than any single part, of course. This too we must consider.

          • Obvious

            No, we used the total embodied energy. Most of that energy is embodied somewhere else, like an oil refinery, etc.

          • Ged

            That’s fair then. The question turns to what percentage of the embodied process is possible with what we see present? Then we can constrain what possible percentage of the energy/material budget could be met by that at realistic material loads, with the remaining needing cooling. Then we can compare that model to the evidence as it comes and refine and see if it matches within bounds or. Was clearly not what was done (that is, the hypothesis that 1 MW was not produced and not the budget at work).

            There could always be new evidence that could dash it all, but so far there isn’t a solid conclusion, just that things are apparently possible.

          • Obvious

            The best comparison of embodiment elsewhere, and heat losses in the process, etc. that is simplest, we have already done.

            A pure endothermic reaction.

            Everything else is a reaction on stilts.

          • Ged

            Alright, let’s forget all we were looking at and circle back to that idea, ignoring mechanical work as well. Do you need to absorb all 1 MW (or any of it)? No. For the current actual hard evidence we have so far, though that could change. So how much could you reasonably absorb within material processing limits with the rest dissipated by cooling?

            Edit: by the way, melting ice is a single endothermic reaction, but additionally heating that melt water to 60C is another “endothermic” process, and doing both steps nearly doubles the energy absorbed in total per kg. See? Not so much on stilts after all.

          • Obvious

            This is what is driving me crazy. It is not 1 MW.
            It is 1 MW per second per second. 24 hours a day. For a year.
            (Sometimes 3/4 of a MW per second per second).
            If it takes 140000 kg of ice a day to get rid of it, that is impossible.

            Maybe only 1/2 has to be dealt with. Still 70000 kg of ice or chemical endotherm equivalent…. and so on.

            No matter what one might substitute for ice, the total overall mass won’t change much. Materials, atoms, molecules whatever can only hold so much heat or the heat energy equivalent. It can only be removed at those masses whether by humid atmosphere, trucks, conveyor belts underground, you name it. The transport budget, by whatever means, is unreal for the size of area we talking about.

            And that is the point Jed was making.

          • Ged

            That’s a fair point, and it helps us constrain the system. But going crazy over it is unnecessary. We don’t need all 1 MW per second per second absorbed in a reaction or series of steps (phase change then heating then evaporation would be one such series, or phase change and polymerization and evaporation, etc; more total energy than any one part of course).

            We don’t need that for trying to understand what could or could not be going on, other than phase changing materials like ice alone is just not realistic for taking care of 100% of the energy due to material input constraints. Not happening. So we have that.

            What we need is simply the budget, like any good pie chart. How much could possibly go in to reactions or heating or such based on what evidence of possible material transport rates there are? Then, what percentage needs to be dissipated, by fluid flow (e.g. ground loop, discharge) or air flow? Then, taking that budget and different proportioning models of that budget, we can start looking in an informed way for what other evidence there is that supports or disproved the budget model–till the point where we can say the budget is possible with what we currently know, or that it isn’t possible to have such a big energy budget with what we currently know.

            That is the goal and purpose of examining evidence in the first place. Don’t let pure rhetoric from others cause one to lose sight of the overall purpose of evaluation and reason.

          • Robert Dorr

            Wouldn’t that be 1 MWH as in Mega Watt Hour not 1 MWS as in Mega Watt Seconds. When you say a house uses 20 KW per day that means 20 Kilo Watt Hours not 20 Kilo Watts per second.

          • Nothing can use 20 kW per day. It uses 20 kW. Period. Continuously (power).
            Which makes 20kWh (energy) per hour. Etc.

          • Robert Dorr

            Sure you can use 20 KW (total) over a 24 hour period.

          • Yes. That is 20 kW for a day. (20 kW * 24 = 480 kWh).
            Not PER day.
            Edit: You use an amount of ENRGY per time (day e.g.).

          • Robert Dorr

            That’s not what I”m saying. I mean 20 Kilo Watt Hours. i.e. slightly less than 1 Kilo Watt per hour.

          • Right.
            That is 20 kWh (per day e.g.).
            Not 20 kW.

          • Robert Dorr

            My assumption was and maybe I’m wrong, is that Rossi’s plant produced 1 MW per hour of thermal energy. What is the correct amount

          • 1 MWh (energy) per hour. Which is 1 MW (power), on average.
            Edit: Thermal, in both cases.

          • Think of power (W) like speed (m/s, mph) and energy (Wh, Ws, J) like distance (meters, miles).
            You can keep a certain speed constantly, and after some time you have covered a certain distance.
            You can output or input a certain power constantly (watts) and after some time you have produced or consumed a certain amount of energy (Wh, Ws, J).

          • Robert Dorr

            I understand. You just use the terminology more formally than I do. Which is a good thing, less confusing in the long run.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I like to explain it this way:

            Consider a muscle car. “Power” is what you feel when you stomp on the accelerator and it pushes you into the seat. It is a rate of energy usage. Energy is what you get by integrating power over time. For a muscle car, it is the gas you pump at the end of your “power” trip.

          • ??
            It is 1MW of power.
            Or 1 MWs per second.
            Or 1 MJ per second.
            (What is 1 MW per second per second?)

          • Obvious

            I am trying, without mincing words too badly, to convey that these are MWh we are talking about. Not a measly 1 MW.

            A million Joules a second, every second, for every minute, for every hour, for every day, for every month, etc. (sometimes less)

            Increasing inexorably, unless removed at least as fast.

          • Right.

          • Ged

            So what? You make it sound so dramatic. If you are a trained cyclist, you produce 4-6 W/kg once deep in an endurance race, power your body must dissipate, and does, on top of your Basal Metabolic Rate. You don’t spontaneously combust due to these joules per second, because you do cool fast enough through convection and evaporation and intake of cool water periodically that has to be brought to body temp.

            Just energy budgets. No different than here in concept, just scale.

          • Obvious

            That is a lot of cyclists in our warehouse.

          • Ged

            Then guess they will need a lot of water bottles 😉

          • Michael W Wolf

            I know, isn’t the ecat amazing! 🙂 You should be happy at the possibilities.

          • GiveADogABone

            1MW is a fixed rate of energy transfer and no messing.
            1MWhr/hr allows for a wide variation of the instantaneous power but the average over one hour comes out at 1MW.
            1MWs/s implies very high fluctuation rates within the timespan of 1 second.
            The last two are really statistics.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            It is 1MWh/hr of energy.

          • Gerald

            Seen datacenters that can deliver 15MW of energy and thus cool it also. Never seen an icecream man. 😉 But yes 1 MW is a lot and if there are no chillers a room about 600 square meters will heat up pretty quick. Rossi’s place had a high ceiling, that helps.

          • roseland67

            GED,

            Is this process you describe what is happening in the building?
            If it is, great, if not, it is simply another assumption to fit your argument.

        • Michael W Wolf

          They have figured all the heat could be vented out. JM used what they needed and vented the rest out. Jed is now short circuiting and sounding very frantic. IH has done nothing to help their case yet. Calling people frauds, then claiming they have to be frauds because there is too much heat and there is not, is ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst. Are you kidding me? They have accused people of serious crimes, where’s the beef? This is getting ridiculous.

          • Obvious

            All the heat could be vented out if you evacuate the warehouse of air, oh, about once a minute.
            Hold onto your hat and don’t go anywhere near the fans. The Home Dept bathroom fan story….ROFLMFAO!
            How long does it take to get the stink out of a room, let alone portions of a MWh?
            Suck it out through 6″ ducting? Probably get red hot just from the air flow.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Wrong. A good portion of the heat could have been used, dumped or cooled in many ways. Point is Jed and IH say it can’t be possible, which means Rossi didn’t produce any excess heat. That is completely false. And they are trying to call it proof. I am getting the feeling the ecat works and IH is not credible anymore. If Bass comes forward, it will be over. Penon will be justified in suing civilly.

          • Obvious

            Well good luck with that.
            I wouldn’t mind if the thing worked. But I am not counting on it this time.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Touche’, I don’t mind that you have doubts Obvious. It is upsetting when people say they know that which cannot be known. And sometimes I take it out on the wrong people.

          • roseland67

            Michael,

            And as usual, Rossi has supplied a grand total of no answers as to how it was done. He simply lets everyone make assumptions and guess.

            This would not give away any secrets to his Ecat, but would only make his story more plausible.
            He could simply say, 20% of the heat went into the product, 20% went up the roof vents, 40% went down the drain and 20% went out the garage door.

        • GiveADogABone

          CH4+H20->CO+3H2 -206kJ/mol
          and no magic and a lot less than 140000kg

          • Obvious

            And no waste heat?
            The heat goes into the reaction nearly perfectly?
            How many kg per day, reactants and product, BTW?
            I looked over one of the posts on this, but did not find it compelling.
            Certainly kudos are in order for giving it a go.

          • GiveADogABone

            And no waste heat?
            Surprisingly little

            The heat goes into the reaction nearly perfectly?
            Yes

            How many kg per day, reactants and product, BTW?
            Precise numbers are a problem but must tie in to 36,000kg/day of steam from the E-cat.
            Looking at the equation, the methane might be of the order of 30,000kg/day (two lorry loads removed when converted to hydrocarbons.)

            I looked over one of the posts on this, but did not find it compelling.
            I’ve only just posted this, so another go?

            Certainly kudos are in order for giving it a go.
            The only real problem so far seems to be the lack of evidence of a gas pipe.

            websearch site:www.e-catworld.com SMR+FT
            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/14/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endothermic/

            Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was … – E-Cat World
            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/…/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endotherm…14 Aug 2016 – Consider a transport container that contains the whole production process of SMR(Steam Methane Reforming) and FT(Fischer-Tropsch).

      • GiveADogABone

        Number three :-
        websearch site:www.e-catworld.com SMR+FT
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/14/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endothermic/
        Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was … – E-Cat World
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/…/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endotherm…14 Aug 2016 – Inputs to the SMR+FT container : 1a: Air for combustion @ 20C 1b: Methane for combustion @ 20C 2: Methane for process raw material @ 20C

    • Ged

      They aren’t making more heat than is going in, right? Then yes, whatever they are doing is endothermic, or just dissipative.

    • roseland67

      Sam,
      Jed is a smart guy, knows his stuff, just like many other engineers/experimenters here. His opinions cannot be dismissed out of hand simply because they do not
      Agree with the masses.
      Only replicated proof by multiple experimenters of Energy out > Energy in
      Will change the world, nothing else, not faith, not insults, not reviews of pictures of roofs, nothing

      • wpj

        Pity he is not an engineer; he a Japanese scholar!

      • Engineer48

        Hi Roselands,

        Jed is very PRO LENR, just not Rossi’s LENR tech.

        But when he lead us engineers on a wild goose chase, claiming he knew stuff about the flow meter we did not and then we got the flow meter specs and learned he had nothing, well he then shifted gear and started making claims about 1/2 filled pipes and air in the water system, again claiming to know secret stuff. Well the last time he claimed to know secret stuff about the flow meter, it exploded in his face when the real data was available.

        Jed as do most of us believe LENR does work, in fact there is no doubt about it. But it is not a easy cake to bake as the recipe can be very complex.

        So Jed attacks Rossi alone and makes not a lot of heavily negative comments about other LENR researchers.
        .

        • TOUSSAINT francois

          Hi Engineer48

          Here on this blog, your are making a great job doing justice to andrea rossi.
          So many trolls sould be ashamed

          • Obvious

            Nice of you to join us. A votre santé !

        • roseland67

          48,

          The overwhelming majority of people on this board are Pro Lenr.

          Rossi, (not Jed), has lead everyone on wild goose chase by not supplying all info and having us all guess and make assumptions.

          Jed lead nobody anywhere, he just expressed his opinion based on the information he has available.
          He, like everyone else, has made assumptions to form his opinion, and because his opinion is polar opposite form what everyone else believes, he is labeled accordingly.
          Time will tell

          • Engineer48

            Hi Roselands,

            The majority of posters on this subject are various types of Engineers, Chemists and other such professional people that can work with varied facts and test the validity or not of various proposals using solid engineering, chemical and physics principals.

            What we seem to have come up with opposes a lot of “trust me” claims from Jed and others.

            So we are not so much Pro Rossi but Pro does it pass the physical reality smell test.
            .

          • roseland67

            48

            Again, what you have all come up with is an immense amount of possibilities based on a boatload of assumptions of what “might” happen and what “could” be, and these are all based on Rossi saYing “Trust me”, and NOT giving you enough information to make a intelligent informed decision.

            Sure, they’re all possible, but none of these would be necessary if Rossi simply supplied enough data to do the job right WITHOUT assumptions.
            This had been goin on for well over 5 years now, and Jed, I think, has seen enough of it to believe it is all a pile of hooey.
            Yes, I said hooey, no typo.

            You and many others here believe there are reasonable reasons why Rossi never provides said data and you present many hundreds of them
            With each Rossi post.

            Most, have no problem with that, Jed, it seems, has reached his limit and is calling “BS” on all things Rossi.
            He may be wrong but he may be right, only Rossi knows for sure.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Roselands,

            Actually the physics of the location and the investigation of several possible plant processes do support that a process could have occurred there and any water heat from the process could have been dealt with in a way according to normal plant engineering process.

            We do not know what the process could have been but have identified several that fit the observed circumstances.
            .

          • roseland67

            48,

            I am not saying your possibilities cannot be true, they all are possible.
            You’re taking google earth satellite pictures of rooftops to support a “possibility” when all it would take is Rossi saying 20% of the heat went into the product, 20% went out the roof vents, 40% went down the drain and 20% went out the garage door.
            Done, simple, no guessing about roof vent sizes, available water flow rates, blower/fan curves, etc.
            Then all of these inane suppositions, calculations and estimates can be practically accomplished.
            Do you see any reason why Rossi could not simply state above? Or do you believe it will impact his IP, the customers IP or the trial?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Roselands,

            2 thoughts there:

            1) NDA with the customer as his production was highly confidential and may have represented a new, under test, generation of whatever the JMP plant was.

            2) Rossi is keeping some missiles in reserve to hurl at IH during the trial.

            Suggest there is some % of both involved.
            .

          • roseland67

            48,
            Certainly possible,
            If Rossi states that then great

      • Chapman

        I find absolutely nothing to support your assertion that Jeb is “a smart guy who knows his stuff”.

        True, he is fluent in several languages – but so are most children, by 5 years of age, across europe. Multilingualism is not an indication of IQ, just training and environment.

        But based upon his recent statements and arguments, it is clear he does NOT know his stuff, as he is repeatedly proven laughably incorrect on technical matters that he proclaims!

        Jeb is just a translator, who followed a hobby level interest in science and started a website as a document repository. He then used that site to sell extremely fringe science publications side-by-side with respectable science materials – thus showing he did not have the capacity to differentiate between the two – further proof he does not “know his stuff”.

        Currently, Jeb is just an echo chamber – repeating things he has been told or read, without the faculty to separate the wheat from the chaff. All of this, when added to the endless attacks and personal slanders against Rossi, and the ridiculous repeating of all the IH propaganda and FUD (which he MUST know is contrived nonsense) belies your claim. Call him what you will – but certainly not “a smart guy who knows his stuff”.

        Therefor, I most certainly CAN, and adamantly DO, dismiss his opinions out of hand – as any intelligent person with ANY discernment should/will/MUST do!

        • roseland67

          Of course you don’t,
          Wondering what you will believe next week

    • help_lenr

      Jed Rothwell seems to me a charlatan. Like many charlatans his arguments seems convincing to laymen but are are false when looking closer on the facts. Jed has no solid background in science or technology, maybe he is autodidact and know some technology beyond the average layman, nothing more.

      As far as I could understand his profession is “technical writer” and probably he speaks several languages, this means that he can talk fluently and sound convincing without understanding well the insight of what he is talking about.

      For example:
      His claim that there is _no_ technology which use _fast endothermic_ process is only a wild guess of his. It is quite possible that there are technological _fast endothermic_ processes which are not widely known to the public and he don’t know them because of his ignorance.

      He believes that his naive understanding of plumbing, calories counting and some basic laws of physics are enough to make evaluation about any technology.

      I consider him as worthless noise.

      • Chapman

        Help_Lenr,

        Perfectly expressed.

        I wish there was a way to click that “up-vote” button numerous times, rather than have to resort to publicly gushing over about how perfect that post was. But I have no recourse – no means of showing my overwhelming agreement with your sentiments other than to write this wordy approval.

        Please consider this to be my substitute for one thousand “up-vote” clicks!

    • Seems Jed interpreted Rossi’s statement to mean all of the heat was consumed by the customers process and no venting was necessary — and then went on a rant.

      Nobody else thinks that. Even Rossi said that the excess heat was vented.

      • Bruce__H

        No.

        Rossi said “The heat was used, not vented away from the Customer”.

        To me this means that the heat was used and not vented away from the customer.

        • In that very same post he says:

          There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.

          http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=150#comment-1215175

          • Bruce__H

            I think that Rossi is saying that the venting was used when necessary.

            I interpret this to mean it was not needed all the time. The picture is of an endothermic process that captured 1 MW of heat and a venting infrastructure that dissipated heat when the endothermic load was reduced from time to time. Of course this is not the only possible scenario but it would justify Jed’s comments.

          • Perhaps if we get a few more details we can piece together what the full set up was and evaluate it. At this point in time we still have many unanswered questions and too many possibilities.

          • Bruce__H

            I agree.

            So do you now think that Jed’s interpretation of Rossi’s statement is a reasonable one given what we know? I do.

          • I think it’s one interpretation of Rossi’s statement, but not the one that came into my mind first nor the most reasonable one.

            Given that there are multiple interpretations, he was unwise to use it as the basis of a slanderous rant.

          • Jed has morphed into a confirmation bias machine. no more useful to us than MY is. rage motivated now imo. sad.

          • Bruce__H

            It is one interpretation that agrees with the what is known. It is the most reasonable one given the information that Jed trusts.

            It is my understanding it isn’t libel if Jed Rothwell believes what he is saying.

      • Ged

        And I still think Rossi was referencing “used” as being what was sent from the plant to the customer; and we have not had any full pictures of the 1MW plant if there is emergency venting over there, which would address his second point too. His English is just not that reliable, but hey, if it feeds obvious bias, I guess it is ok to go off then deep end.

        • Chapman

          Thank you for pointing this out.

          Following Rossi is like reading Zephirs writing. I originally thought Zephir was spouting a bunch of sci-fi nonsense like Axil, until I found out English is a second language and he is struggling to translate technical ideas across his internal language barrier. A simple substitution of keywords which have the same dictionary definition can still convey an inaccurate idea of the thought being expressed. But if you are not playing “grammer police” and intentionally trying to find a reason to nail the guy, it is pretty easy to follow what was meant, once you catch on to what is happening.

          Misinterpreting something said under such circumstances – on a technicality of translated word choice – is unfair, and intellectually dishonest.

          I understand exactly what Rossi is SAYING… Just as exchanges with Zephir are now among my favorite interactions here at ECW.

          Rossi gets some words crossed up due to incorrect word issues, true. But Jeb is highly fluent in several languages, and no doubt could recite Robert Frost in Mandarin Chinese – and yet he can’t seem to make SENSE no matter what he says! Go figure…

    • GiveADogABone

      I have put my explanation onto the thread below :-
      websearch site:www.e-catworld.com SMR+FT
      Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was … – E-Cat World
      http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/…/rossi-customers-manufacturing-process-was-endotherm…14 Aug 2016 – Inputs to the SMR+FT container : 1a: Air for combustion @ 20C 1b: Methane for combustion @ 20C 2: Methane for process raw material @ 20C

      ‘there is no such thing as an endothermic industrial process that magically swallows up 1 MW and makes it vanish’
      Wrong and you do not need magic.

    • GiveADogABone

      Yes.
      websearch site:www.e-catworld.com SMR+FT
      Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was … – E-Cat World
      http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/…/ro...
      Aug 2016 – Consider a transport container that contains the whole
      production process of SMR(Steam Methane Reforming) and
      FT(Fischer-Tropsch).

      I have also posted a reply on Ego Out.

  • Impressive investigation on the shiny pipe by Engineer48, Obvious and others!
    Important conclusion that significant excess heat can be vented out without a steam plume.

    It will also be interesting to possibly see one day how close Engineer48’s functional scheme is to the real design. The EMF signal from the heater coil is intriguing.

    • Ged

      Yes, it seems that within what is reasonably possible to purchase, there is enough opportunity for potential cooling to continuously handle 1 MW of dissipation by air, so far as -current- evidence shows.

      Others have suggested -in addition- the dissipative budget could be lessened by heat exchange with city water and discharging 60C water to the sewer system, or ground loop cooling as used in geothermal HVAC (very unlikely the rental folks would go for that, but it is done at times), or chemical synthesis/production processes, or any combination of all such. Mechanical seems out though as the evidence does not suggest the noise associated with mechanical work. Water based evaporative cooling at significant levels is also probably ruled out as that would make a visible steam plume, which evidence so far suggests wan’t present. Other evaporative methods are possible, just not water or visible gasses.

      That seems the current synopsis from what I can glean. We’ll see though, never know what the next twist will be.

      • I’m by no means sure of this, but even if evaporative cooling was used (water sprayed onto cooling fins in the air stream) the exhaust air might only be 70-80% saturated at the temperatures and flow rates required to eject 1MW. So if this damp but hot air left a roof pipe at significant speed (as it would have to), it would probably almost instantly disperse into a large enough volume of outside air to prevent visible condensation appearing. It would have been quite noisy though, I think.

        • Ged

          That is really interesting. I haven’t looked much at the evaporative side of things. The new silver piping Engineer and Obvious spotted as ha condensate trap, which suggests some level saturation in the output at that point, but I don’t think I can extrapolate how much condensation that pipe is meant to deal with.

          • Obvious

            I highly doubt it is a trap. I think it is just the elbow where it goes into the wall.
            But my speculation is probably as good as anyone else’s for the duct work.

  • Impressive investigation on the shiny pipe by Engineer48, Obvious and others!
    Important conclusion that significant excess heat can be vented out without a steam plume.

    It will also be interesting to possibly see one day how close Engineer48’s functional scheme is to the real design. The EMF signal from the heater coil is intriguing.

    • Ged

      Yes, it seems that within what is reasonably possible to purchase, there is enough opportunity for potential cooling to continuously handle 1 MW of dissipation by air, so far as -current- evidence shows.

      Others have suggested -in addition- the dissipative budget could be lessened by heat exchange with city water and discharging 60C water to the sewer system, or ground loop cooling as used in geothermal HVAC (very unlikely the rental folks would go for that, but it is done at times), or chemical synthesis/production processes, or any combination of all such. Mechanical seems out though as the evidence does not suggest the noise associated with mechanical work. Water based evaporative cooling at significant levels is also probably ruled out as that would make a visible steam plume, which evidence so far suggests wan’t present. Other evaporative methods are possible, just not water or visible gasses.

      That seems the current synopsis from what I can glean. We’ll see though, never know what the next twist will be.

      • I’m by no means sure of this, but even if evaporative cooling was used (water sprayed onto cooling fins in the air stream) the exhaust air might only be 70-80% saturated at the temperatures and flow rates required to eject 1MW. So if this damp but hot air left a roof pipe at significant speed (as it would have to), it would probably almost instantly disperse into a large enough volume of outside air to prevent visible condensation appearing. It would have been quite noisy though, I think.

        • Bruce__H

          Whether or not the steam being vented is visible as a white cloud would depend a lot on local weather conditions. Sometimes it would be seen and other times not.

        • Ged

          That is really interesting. I haven’t looked much at the evaporative side of things. The new silver vent piping Engineer and Obvious spotted has a condensate trap, which suggests some level saturation in the output at that point, but I don’t think I can extrapolate how much condensation that pipe is meant to deal with.

          • Obvious

            I highly doubt it is a trap. I think it is just the elbow where it goes into the wall.
            But my speculation is probably as good as anyone else’s for the duct work.

      • Bruce__H

        What do you mean by “dissipation by air”. If by this you mean venting dry air at something near 100 C then I don’t see any evidence for this in the photos. You would have to move a huge quantity of air to do it.

    • Bruce__H

      Mats Lewan said “Important conclusion that significant excess heat can be vented out without a steam plume”

      This conclusion is incorrect. If the silver piping appearing in the exhibit 26 photo is being used to vent heat then it must be carrying steam because if it were only venting dry air then it would have to be much much larger to disperse 1 MW of heat. So there would definitely have to be a large steam plume emanating from this pipe when it is use. I think everyone will agree with this. The plume should be easily imaged using thermal cameras.

      Most important, I don’t understand why people aren’t paying attention to the statements of Rossi, who says that the heat venting equipment is not visible in the photo, or Murray, who was on site and says there is no venting equipment adequate to disperse 1 MW. Why do the statements of these guys not count?

      • The silver piping would be venting significantly less than 1 MW with convection, an endothermic process and the skylight vent also in play.

        Exhaust steam does not always make a visible plume (and anyway who’s to say there wasn’t one?).

        We have hearsay about IR cameras being used, but we don’t know when or where, what they actually looked at, nor have the data or results of those measurements.

        Some previous assertions from IH acolytes, like tampering with the flow meter, have turned out to be (so far) completely unsupported.

        Murray, as a paid agent of IH, cannot be trusted any more than Rossi can. Engineering and science are our only reliable witnesses.

        So far, the evidence provided by the defendants’ counter-claim have proven to be riddled with poor assumptions and prone to jumping to conclusions not warranted by their observations.

        Rossi’s reply should be revealing.

        • wpj

          I don’t understand all these steam bit; the only steam was from the plant to the client’s heat exchanger and the condensate returned to the plant; it has been already stated that the water returned at 60C+ depending on the client’s draw.

          The excess heat, then, must be released as hot air.

          • Yes, what the customer did with the heat delivered by the heat exchanger is an open question.

            I think people have this image of a fire hose blasting steam into the customer area, but that is not likely.

            The customer winding up with steam of their own at the end of their process using the heat is likely, but not the only possibility.

          • wpj

            I have my doubts; very hot water, maybe and then a fan to cool and vent.

          • Yes, maybe. If we get a few more details we might be able to put it together.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Maybe most of the heat went down the drain?
        .

        • Bruce__H

          Yes. I have calculated that given the type of plumbing found in light industry buildings it would just barely be possible to get rid of 1 MW down the drain. It would require a greater than 1 in 10 gradient from the drain in the building to the sewer in the middle of the street though. It would also cost a little over a $1000 a day and as I recall that was just in sewer costs, not water fees.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Bruce, why don’t you figure all the possible ways to evacuate the heat. You keep saying in each of your scenarios 1MW. Figure the maximum reasonable evacuation for each type and then add them up to see if it is more or less than 1mw. I mean 1 MW down the drain!!! It would be less if there were other means of evacuation, no?

          • Bruce__H

            Hot water down the drain could deal with 1 MW of heat all by itself (just barely and given the right sort of infrastructure). Ducted venting using a powered fan could do the job all by itself (I think it would have to be 16 inches in diameter or something like that) if it was expelling steam. Radiation through the walls, ceiling and floor could do the job all by itself (although then the room temperature would be murderously high). It seems to me highly unlikely that endothermic capture could do the job all by itself but I can’t say for certain because I haven’t seen any discussion here that properly evaluates the efficiency of the process (i.e., how much waste heat is required for every unit of heat that is captured).

            The problem with all these scenarios is that they run into difficulty when you take into account that IH became suspicious of the operation and took various steps to try and measure outputs from the plant while it was in operation. They didn’t see a large heat plume from the vents on the roof of the building so I think that venting is out as a major route of heat shedding. They say there wasn’t much activity in or out so I think this eliminates endothermic entrapment as a major source of heat egress. They have witnesses who say that the facility wasn’t particularly hot so this eliminates radiation as a major route.

            Water down the drain is the most likely route lef. It and sounds like it must have carried most of the load. But wouldn’t it be noisy? IH says there was little noise. Maybe I am wrong about that …I don’t know.

    • Bruce__H

      I’ve done a bit of math. If 1 MW of heat is vented using only dry air then the venting would have to move 10,000 m^3 per second. So any venting has to use steam.

      Edit. Correction … big calculation mistake! That should 10 m^3 per second not 10,000 m^3 per second. I should have known better because I have posted the result before. But this is still impossible because to expel this much air via a 6 inch diameter pipe would involve an air velocity of 5600 m/s. So the venting still has to use steam

  • Andy Kumar

    // The heat was used, not vented away from the Customer. //

    Rossi says one little sentence and people go wild with speculation. 400 comments and counting. Wouldn’t it be easier to bribe the janitor and find out how it was vented. It seems that E48 did not learn real world problem solving skills 🙂

    http://anengineersaspect.blogspot.com/2012/02/engineer-joke-and-cartoon-how-to.html

    • Engineer48

      Hi Andy,

      Might I suggest this is a probable result.

      Some of the heat went into the product.
      Some of the waste heat went up the shiny pipe.
      Some of the waste heat was removed by the ceiling exhaust fan above the JMP plant.
      Some of the waste heat increased the temperature of some amount of city water and went down the drain.

      Why is it some here try to get rid of ALL the heat via one means?

      Please folks, there is an industrial process happening and the heat energy will be dealt with by the above standard industrial methods as applied by the industrial plant engineers that designed the temporary plant.
      .

      • Thomas Kaminski

        And some of the heat was conducted through the building envelope (walls, floor, ceiling).

  • GiveADogABone

    http://www.doucetteindustries.com/Portals/0/Products/CO2%20Vaporizers/CO2_Vaporizer_Brochure.pdf
    How the CO2 Vaporizer™ works
    … Bulk CO2 that is stored at -10 ̊F must be heated to between 50 ̊F and 70 ̊F for the bottling process. Traditional methods of CO2 vaporization require either electric heaters or steam heat for this operation. Electric heaters are expensive to operate, and steam heaters require full-time boiler operation that is inconvenient and costly.
    Well, buy an E-cat!!

    vapourizing liquid CO2 :
    Evaporate liquid CO2 from -10C to 90C
    Enthalpy change 540-175=365kJ/kg = 0.365MJ/kg
    1MW(MJ/s) of heat evaporates 1/0.365=2.74kg/s
    2.74kg/s = 2.74*60^2*24/1000 = 237 tonnes/day or about ten lorry loads/day
    CO2 discharge not a problem; just like a normal boiler flue and you cannot see it.

  • GiveADogABone

    Transferred

  • My2c

    Mats,
    here you can see steam released from a hose at a rate of 7kg/h (That’s exactly what you ‘should’ have seen when you watched Rossi demonstration in Bologna 5 years ago)
    https://youtu.be/vJ9hz0z_AO4

    The 1MW plant allegedly ‘evaporated’ 36000 kg water per day (or 1500 kg/h, that is 214 times 7kg/h) – so it should have produced 214 times of the steam you can see in the youtube clip.

    Maybe you get an idea what it would look – and sound – if the steam from the 1MW plant (214 times more than shown in the clip) would be just released to the air. – Which would be the simplest and most efficient way to get rid of the energy.
    And maybe you get also an idea how much (immense) air flow it would require if you want to vent out the same energy not as steam, but with air, which carries much less enthalpie.

    • Bruce__H

      Good post! People should think about this in light of present events.

      • MikeP

        Since there was a closed system with water being returned, the return flow should be about 36000 liters per day. There are 86400 seconds in a day, so less than a half liter per second. A liter is 1000 cubic cm, the cross section of the pipe a bit over 150 square cm for a 6 in pipe, resulting in about 7 cm/s required flow. Why is that an overwhelming number?

        • Bruce__H

          Water expands by 1700 times when converted to steam

          • MikeP

            And?

          • Bruce__H

            … and therefore the flow of steam in a 6″ pipe would be 7 x 1700 = 11900 cm/s = 119 m/s which is an overwhelming number.

            The water in the system has to be converted to steam at some point because 36000 of liquid water is not capable of carrying 1 MWday of heat.

          • Obvious

            Thanks. Only about 430 km/hr.
            I was fiddling with that, on a tangent, wondering if the pipe would get red hot from friction or not.
            Better than 2000 km/hr down a DN40 pipe….

          • MikeP

            According to Engineer48 superheated steam carries 7 times the energy, so about 5000 kg per day would be needed, reducing your flow calculation to 17 m/s …

          • Bruce__H

            According to Rossi the steam evolved by the Doral plant is only just barely (by 2-3 degrees) superheated and is near atmospheric pressure. This would carry less than 1% extra energy compared with saturated steam.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mike,

            I seriously doubt superheater steam was going out to the roof vent via the 6in dia shiny metal ductwork.

            What I suggest may have happened was some % of the thermal energy ended in inside the endothermic product.

            Then some % warmed up some city water needed to cool some part of the manufactyrung process and went down the drain.

            Other % of the waste heat was vented to the roof via the shiny duck work.

            What was left as radiated heat, warmed the warehouse air, which rose to the ceiling and was exhausted by the roof fan.

            Which gives us 4 ways to use and eliminate the 1MW of heat.
            .

          • MikeP

            Ah … I thought Bruce was talking about delivery to the customer … That’s the only place where one can talk about one path for the thermal energy … I forgot what the documented / assumed diameter of the steam delivery pipe was and went with Bruce’s stated number … I think they’re trying to argue against 1 MW being delivered …

          • Slad

            Steam is compressible… It’s facile to say it expands by 1700x

          • Bruce__H

            Very true. But aren’t all the pressures in the system supposed to be near 1 atmosphere?

          • Slad

            According to Mr Rothwells source one sensor, somewhere, reads 1atm

        • My2c

          There is no doubt that a 6″ line is big enough to serve for the condensate return line (for the flow of 36 m3/day or 1,5 m3/h condensate).
          Actually the return line pipe size is probably only 3″ (DN80) – but even 3″ is still big enough, rather oversized (that’s why the DN80 flow meter operates out of min range).

          The issue is how to get the 1MWh heat, which allegedly was transferred to the “customer side” every hour, out of the building.
          The youtube video should give you an idea of the amount of steam involved.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        The post is misleading as it is showing low enthalpy saturated steam that could have 7x LESS energy per kg than high enthalpy superheated invisible sream.

        So if the superheated invisible flow was 1kg/h, the energy could have been about equal to the visible saturated steam flow at 7kg/h.

    • Engineer48

      Hi My2C,

      That was not superheated steam as you can see it. It is saturated steam.

      It is not enough to show a low enthalpy saturated steam flow and compare it to a superated high enthalpy steam flow. The superheater steam could contain 7x more energy per kg of steam, so the superheated flow rate could be 7x lower and the steam invisible.

      • Bruce__H

        What pressure and temperature conditions would lead to 7x more energy for the superheated steam?

        Edit: I just understood what you are saying here. I didn’t get it before. I think that My2c’s bucket demonstration adequately refutes your contention though.

      • My2c

        Engineer
        What are you talking about? Do you suggest that the steam shown in the video clip is not dry steam?
        If that is the case, then watch this video:
        https://youtu.be/OHvnpYgg_rw
        It shows a steam flow of 6 kg/h, and sparging that steam for 1 minute (=0.1kg) in a 10 l water basket increase the water temperaure by about 6 degC.
        If you do the calculation you will see that the energy from the condensation of 0.1 kg dry steam (225 kJ) plus the 30 kJ from the temp change (100 degC to 30 degC) is quite close to the 251 kJ required to heat 10 l water from 25 degC to 31 deg C.

        And regarding your “superheated steam”: You can raise the temperature of dry steam furthermore, but the increase in the enthalpie isn’t much anymore.

        • Engineer48

          Hi My2C,

          Superheated dry steam is not visible as there are no clumps of stuck together water molecules. Please watch this video.

          https://youtu.be/R9uvIhgVz04

          Even though it is not visible it is still very hot and can light a match.

          • My2c

            That’s right, superheated steam (e.g. >200degC @ 1 barg as shown in your clip) would be invisible – but where do you get the idea that the 1MW plant would produce steam at such high temperature?
            What I have read so far, the steam temperature was just a couple of degrees above 100 degC (@1 barg). – So hardly superheated, and if exposed to (cooler) air, definetly visible.

          • Roger Roger

            You read the ERV?

          • Bruce__H

            Hi My2c

            I didn’t understand Engineer’s post on the first go through either. What he is saying is that it appears to him your first video was showing wet steam (a contention I think you have since disproved) and that wet stem can have an enthalpy up to 7x lower than saturated steam. He then reasons that a hose that really did contain saturated steam deliver the same heat with a flow 7x lower. This is how he accounts for what is seen in the Krivit video (the one taken in Rossi’s lab).

            I disagree with his reasoning. I don’t think he has done the math properly or thought things through from first principles. I have been asking a number of Rossi supporters here to go back and carry through the same calculations for the Krivit video that they are doing here for the Doral plant but I’ve had no takers. The nice thing about that video is you can actually see the expelled steam and measure its velocity so you have a piece of guaranteed information that you don’t have for the Doral plant. If people were to do this they would find that the reality they can see right in front of them doesn’t match Rossi’s claims.

          • Bruce__H

            Saturated steam is not visible either. Steam is just water vapour and water vapour is invisible.

          • Chapman

            Wonderful demonstration! Thank You!

            Boy, that pretty much trashes most of the BS FUD that is being presented. Nicely done!

        • Engineer48
          • My2c

            What do you wanna proof with that screenshot?
            That the enthalpy of steam @ambient pressure and 100 degC is 2676 kJ/kg? – I would hardly call this superheated steam.

            Here is a good online tool to calculate steam parameter:
            http://www2.spiraxsarco.com/esc/sh_properties.aspx
            It will tell you, that the enthalpy of the 0 barg steam doesn’t even double when you superheat it t 1000 degC.

          • Engineer48

            Hi My2c,

            The calculator shows the min temp for superheated steam at the inputted pressure. It is my definition superheated steam at that min temp. OK just at the start of superheated steam with 0.0 deg of superheat but still superheated. However with ANY pressure increase above 0.0 barG and it is no longer superheated so in a practical world, the usable superheat temp is above that shown.

            I believe the measured steam temp was around 103C at the claimed 0.0 barG, so it had 3 deg C of superheat.

            I will state again what you showed in your video is not superheated steam and it had a lower enthalpy than superheated steam as even you showed by the heating water example.
            .

          • Bruce__H

            Engineer48:

            You said to My2c “…what you showed in your video is not superheated steam and it had a lower enthalpy than superheated steam as even you showed by the heating water example.”

            I’ve gone through everything and I think that you are just plain wrong here. In fact his second video, the bucket video, and the subsequent calculations do show that the steam he is dealing with has an enthalpy equivalent to dry steam. Slad now agrees with this too.

            What am I missing here? Please explain

          • Bruce__H

            I understand that you must have had a busy time of it over the last day or so and couldn’t devote too much energy to this thread. I wonder if you have time to pick it up now.

            I am still confused by what makes you think that My2c’s steam is low enthalpy. Can you show me which part of My2c’s calculations in the heating water example lead you to think it is not superheated steam he is dealing with?

          • Bruce__H

            The TLV website is a good one. I don’t believer that your terminology is the same as theirs, though. What you are calling saturated steam is what they would call unsatruated steam. The case illustrated in the screenshot you show is for what they would call saturated steam.

      • Bruce__H

        Just because you can see it doesn’t mean it is saturated steam. This steam is clearly under pressure and when it erupts from the mouth of the hose it undergoes expansive cooling which can create visible water drops all on its own.

        I don’t understand how superheated steam with 7x more energy per kg than saturate steam is relevant to any Rossi system. Are you suggesting, for instance, that the steam visible in the video taken by Krivit in Rossi’s lab was superheated by this sort of margin?

        • Slad

          Steam dries itself out (or even superheats) when it expands, and a steam plume will not be easily cooled by surrounding air due to its insulative qualities.

          • Bruce__H

            I thought My2c’s video demonstration farther down the thread was pretty convincing that this was not wet steam (note: I mistakenly followed Engineer’s terminology and called wet steam “saturated steam” before).

            What is in the hose is saturated steam or even superheated steam. This demonstrates that just because you can see it once it emerges doesn’t mean it is wet steam carrying up to 7x less enthalpy than saturate steam.

          • Slad

            You cannot know that (ie. what’s in the hose) for sure, hence it demonstrates very little (apart from your thought processes). Do your feet hurt with all this dancing on pin heads?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Slad,

            Good diagram.

            If you draw a constant pressure horizontal line between the “Saturated Water” curve on the left to the “Dry Saturated Steam” curve on the right, the enthalpy (energy content) of the “Wet Steam” steam rapidly increases from about ~450kJ/kg on the left to around ~2,700kJ/kg on the right. Once further heated above the “Superheated” state the steam goes invisible.

            The enthalpy change of the “Wet Steam” as it transitions from the left to the right can be as large as 5x but not the 7x as I had indicated. My bad.

            The quality of the “Wet Steam” is determined by its Steam Dryness Fraction. The steam dryness fraction is used to quantify the amount of water within steam. If steam contains 10% water by mass, it’s said to be 90% dry, or have a dryness fraction of 0.9.

            Superheated steam occurs when the Dryness Fraction hits 1.0 and there is no water in the steam. Having 0% as water also makes superheated steam invisible.
            .
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/71f3b93ae704f2efed31b4b3f18328d9f8bea19ab3f4346c7f60b9f91dac2c5a.gif.
            .
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f086ad585111ac39e0cea7f5948feb12a0f6ce91df5db2c3d0a684b1ff448c45.gif

          • Slad

            E48, Good summary 😉 My2cs video shows almost dry steam though, not too disimilar to what Rossi claims, if the supposed erv figures are true.

            Not sure how long you’ve been following the ecat saga, but you may enjoy my seminal treatises on the thermodynamics of the e-cat…

            https://www.scribd.com/user/289797774/Slad

            (It’s a bit outdated and contains the odd cheeky shortcut: They were written mainly for my own amusement, in order to needle a couple of people… )

          • Bruce__H

            Slad tells me that superheated steam

            “…can only exist at the critical point of water, somewhere north of 100atm; It’s a physical impossibility otherwise.”

            Please discuss

            Edit: Slad has pointed out that he said “superheated vapour” and not “superheated steam”. This is entirely correct. So please read my request as referring to superheated vapour.

          • Slad

            Bruce, your post I was replying to didn’t say “superheated steam”, it said “superheated water vapour” …

            …Which can only exist at the critical point.

          • Bruce__H

            Sorry. You are absolutely correct. I misquoted you.

            Is there a distinction between superheated water vapour and superheated steam?

          • Slad

            Edit: no it’s the same thing. I’ve been thinking and saying ‘vapour’, when I meant ‘condensate’. Pretty dumb, Huh?

            Earlier I even called you out for using the wrong terminology. Bah!

            Guess I’m a little rusty on these matters. Sorry for the confusion.

          • Bruce__H

            I don’t accept your terminology as standard. But maybe I am just ignorant. Most sources I am reading say that steam is water vapour and water vapour is steam. See, for instance

            http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/vapor-steam-d_609.html

            Maybe I am not looking in the right place. Can you suggest a reference source for me to look at that uses “vapour” or “superheated water vapour” in the way you are using it (i.e., specifically related to the critical point?

          • Bruce__H

            OK. It all had me a little confused but no harm in the end.

            I now ask you to take a look at the video taken by by Steven Krivit in Rossi’s lab in 2011

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E

            Look at around 11:28 on the video. Rossi pulls out a hose that is supposed to be carrying the output of his ecat device while it is working to convert liquid water to steam at the rate (according to Rossi) of 7 kg per hour. Compare the steam you see emerging from that hose to the flow you see in My2c’s video. They are completely differen even though the mass flows are supposed to be the same. This was a fundamental moment for me when I saw this. I bring it up now because the present fuss with the Doral plant seems to me to be similar with the exception that we can all actually see the output here.

            Take a look and let me know if you think Rossi is making sense in the video. If he isn’t making sense there then it makes me wonder about the present case.

          • Bruce__H

            Nice diagrams.

            I agree with everything you say but it still leaves me confused as to what you think is going on in My2c’s videos. In the second video, the one with the bucket, My2c observes that 0.1 kg of steam raises the temperature of 10 litres of water by 6 degrees C. This corresponds to a total enthalpy change of about 250 Joules. Since it came from 0.1 Kg of steam this means that the steam contains about 2500 Joule/kg more than 20 degree water.

            I wouldn’t call this low-enthalpy steam. What is your opinion?

          • Bruce__H

            My2c’s demonstration with the bucket is persuasive for me. It shows that the contents of the hose must contain water vapour with an pecific enthalpy greater than the latent heat of vapourization of water. I’ve checked the math and it works.

            Why doesn’t this persuade you?

          • Slad

            Bruce, it is not persuasive at all, because when you say:
            “The contents of the hose must contain water vapour with an pecific enthalpy greater than the latent heat of vapourization of water.”
            …You just described superheated water vapour, which can only exist at the critical point of water, somewhere north of 100atm; It’s a physical impossibility otherwise.

            Your math is wrong, trust me.

            My2c and you are confusing each other. You both could choose to benefit from the knowledge of two people who have been taught the thermodynamics of steam (it’s standard mech eng syllabus), and who have made several posts trying to explain some basic concepts to you.

            Please watch the video E48 posted in reply to My2c below.

          • Bruce__H

            Hi Slad,

            Please go to the second video that My2c posted. The one that shows the bucket. Here is the description that My2c posted just below the video.

            “It shows a steam flow of 6 kg/h, and sparging that steam for 1 minute (=0.1kg) in a 10 l water basket increase the water temperaure by about 6 degC.
            If you do the calculation you will see that the energy from the condensation of 0.1 kg dry steam (225 kJ) plus the 30 kJ from the temp change (100 degC to 30 degC) is quite close to the 251 kJ required to heat 10 l water from 25 degC to 31 deg C”

            What is wrong with the math here? Can you point out the flaw?

          • Slad

            This could also describe unsaturated (wet*) steam, using reasonable error boundaries.

            Its very difficult to produce 100% dry (saturated) steam by simple boiling, as shown in your video.

            *98% dry steam is also ‘wet steam’, but could be described (lazily) as ‘saturated steam’, a knife-edge which very rarely exists in real life, it’s more of a theoretical concept.

          • Bruce__H

            Yes. So using reasonable error boundaries it could be dry (superheated) steam, it could be saturated steam or it could be mostly saturated steam. I think it could be any of these depending on the pressure inside the hose

            Now, going back to the fundamental point here, given My2c’s bucket demonstration do you think that this hose could be carrying unsaturated steam having something like 5x less enthalpy than saturated steam as Engineer contends? I find the demonstration persuasive that this isn’t so. In fact the demonstration shows that the steam carries either a bit more or just a bit bit less energy than saturated steam.

            Going back even further, this all means that the flow of steam we see in the first My2c video (the one showing a hose but no bucket) is like the flow that should have been emerging from the hose Rossi was holding up in the video shot by Krivit in 2011. What was actually emerging was a stream of steam under much much less pressure. Now THAT was likely unsaturated, low enthalpy steam. The steam we see in My2c’s video is nothing like that. ,

          • Slad

            Reading this again, I thought you meant you had tried some much more complex manipulations to prove that your video steam plume contained superheated water vapour, hence why it is visible.

            It would be best to use the proper terminology: water vapour is not steam.

            My2cs maths is ok, he just doesnt manage to prove it’s superheated steam.

      • Bruce__H

        Hi Engineer,

        It is in this post that am now replying to that I see you are using terminology in a manner different from the TLV site. You are using the term “saturated steam” to refer to low-enthalpy steam

  • In that very same post he says:

    There was a ventilation system, to exhaust when necessary the heat excess, that has not been taken in the photo.

    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=150#comment-1215175

  • Perhaps if we get a few more details we can piece together what the full set up was and evaluate it. At this point in time we still have many unanswered questions and too many possibilities.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    Maybe most of the heat went down the drain?
    .

  • Obvious

    We already did the ice calculation, and the air cfm calculation.
    Just mix and match. That will get one in the ballpark.

    Probably a spreadsheet with sliders for enthalpy, mass of reactant, air volume, humiidity and T, etc., that balances out the energy budget automatically to 1 MWh increments could be made.
    But the quick and dirty calculations are not looking like that degree of finesse is required.

    The whole thing is a matter of moving mass around to get the heat out.
    Lots of mass, as it turns out.

  • Obvious

    Standard here is 4 to 6″ galvanized ducting, with a fan, usually linked to a humidisat so that the bathroom vent also acts as a dehumidifier to some extent for the house.
    I don’t see any windows to the warehouse.
    In Argentina, the toilet is often right in the shower and you just open the window..

  • Chapman

    Help_Lenr,

    Perfectly expressed.

    I wish there was a way to click that “up-vote” button numerous times, rather than have to resort to publicly gushing over about how perfect that post was. But I have no recourse – no means of showing my overwhelming agreement with your sentiments other than to write this wordy approval.

    Please consider this to be my substitute for one thousand “up-vote” clicks!

  • MikeP

    Since there was a closed system with water being returned, the return flow should be about 36000 liters per day. There are 86400 seconds in a day, so less than a half liter per second. A liter is 1000 cubic cm, the cross section of the pipe a bit over 150 square cm for a 6 in pipe, resulting in about 7 cm/s required flow. Why is that an overwhelming number?

    • My2c

      There is no doubt that a 6″ line is big enough to serve for the condensate return line (for the flow of 36 m3/day or 1,5 m3/h condensate).
      Actually the return line pipe size is probably only 3″ (DN80) – but even 3″ is still big enough, rather oversized (that’s why the DN80 flow meter operates out of min range).

      The issue is how to get the 1MWh heat, which allegedly was transferred to the “customer side” every hour, out of the building.
      The youtube video should give you an idea of the amount of steam involved.

  • MikeP

    And?

    • Bruce__H

      … and therefore the flow of steam in a 6″ pipe would be 7 x 1700 = 11900 cm/s = 119 m/s which is an overwhelming number.

      The water in the system has to be converted to steam at some point because 36000 of liquid water is not capable of carrying 1 MWday of heat.

      • Obvious

        Thanks. Only about 430 km/hr.
        I was fiddling with that, on a tangent, wondering if the pipe would get red hot from friction or not.
        Better than 2000 km/hr down a DN40 pipe….

      • MikeP

        According to Engineer48 superheated steam carries 7 times the energy, so about 5000 kg per day would be needed, reducing your flow calculation to 17 m/s …

        • Engineer48

          Hi Mike,

          I seriously doubt superheater steam was going out to the roof vent via the 6in dia shiny metal ductwork.

          What I suggest may have happened was some % of the thermal energy ended in inside the endothermic product.

          Then some % warmed up some city water needed to cool some part of the manufactyrung process and went down the drain.

          Other % of the waste heat was vented to the roof via the shiny duck work.

          What was left as radiated heat, warmed the warehouse air, which rose to the ceiling and was exhausted by the roof fan.

          Which gives us 4 ways to use and eliminate the 1MW of heat.
          .

          • MikeP

            Ah … I thought Bruce was talking about delivery to the customer … That’s the only place where one can talk about one path for the thermal energy … I forgot what the documented / assumed diameter of the steam delivery pipe was and went with Bruce’s stated number … I think they’re trying to argue against 1 MW being delivered …

          • GiveADogABone

            Pressure enthalpy diagram for water/steam

      • Slad

        Steam is compressible… It’s facile to say it expands by 1700x

  • Engineer48

    Might I suggest this is a probable result.

    Some of the heat went into the product.
    Some of the waste heat went up the shiny pipe.
    Some of the waste heat was removed by the ceiling exhaust fan above the JMP plant.
    Some of the waste heat increased the temperature of some amount of city water and went down the drain.

    Why is it some here try to get rid of ALL the heat via one means?

    Please folks, there is an industrial process happening and the heat energy will be dealt with by the above standard industrial methods as applied by the industrial plant engineers that designed the temporary plant.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    The post is misleading as it is showing low enthalpy saturated steam that could have 7x LESS energy per kg than high enthalpy superheated invisible sream.

    So if the superheated invisible flow was 1kg/h, the energy could have been about equal to the visible saturated steam flow at 7kg/h.

  • Engineer48

    Hi My2C,

    Superheated dry steam is not visible as there are no clumps of stuck together water molecules. Please watch this video.

    https://youtu.be/R9uvIhgVz04

    Even though it is not visible it is still very hot and can light a match.

    • Chapman

      Wonderful demonstration! Thank You!

      Boy, that pretty much trashes most of the BS FUD that is being presented. Nicely done!

  • Engineer48
  • Andrew

    /popcorn

    Could the 6 inch pipe be used to vent heat from a device used for cooling such as a refrigerator compressor? That is also a very large area to do all does of things in the customers area. On an interesting note metal foams can be used as heat exchangers, wasn’t JM using metal foams for something?

  • Andrew

    /popcorn

    Could the 6 inch pipe be used to vent heat from a device used for cooling such as a refrigerator compressor? That is also a very large area to do all does of things in the customers area. On an interesting note metal foams can be used as heat exchangers, wasn’t JM using metal foams for something?

  • GiveADogABone

    Pressure Enthalpy Diagram for Water/Steam
    At the risk of trying to inject some facts, I am completely lost in trying to follow the debate below.
    Could someone please tell me where on the ph state diagram for water/steam the discussion is taking place?
    I am prepared to guess that we are close to the 0.1MPA horizontal line. On that line :-
    The temperature of boiling water is then 100C.
    The enthalpy of 100% water is about 420kJ/kg
    The enthalpy of wet steam at different dryness fractions is as shown between 420 and 2650kJ/kg
    The enthalpy of 100% dry steam is about 2650kJ/kg
    The enthalpy of superheated steam at 1000C is about 4650kJ/kg

    • Bruce__H

      Hi GiveADogABone,

      I assume that the discussion is taking place more or less in the area you mention. When the steam is still in the hose the state must be somewhere vertically above points B or C on the diagram.

      Can I ask a question about the diagram? Within the dome-shaped wet-steam region there are lines marked with percentages. What are these? The temptation is to think that they represent the percent of the water that is in vapour rather than liquid form but is this right? When engineers talk of “saturation” I think they mean saturated with energy so are these instead lines of equal enthalpy saturation?

      • GiveADogABone

        The dryness fraction, so I think you have it the wrong way round. 100% dry is on the right hand side of the dome. You can equally talk about the % wetness and the right hand side of the dome would be 0% wet. I see no distinction between ‘water’ and ‘liquid form’. Anything statewise that is not ‘liquid water’ is ice or steam, or there is the mixed state in the dome which consists of water on the saturated line mixed with varying proportions of steam on the dry saturated line at the same pressure/temperature.

        Take a look at the graphic. There is a wet saturated line on the left of the dome and a dry saturated line on the right side of the dome. ‘Equal enthalpy’ lines are vertical lines on the pressure/enthalpy chart above. Another word of caution. It is easy to be looking at the pressure/enthalpy chart when you really want the temperature/enthalpy chart or vice versa.

        • Bruce__H

          I have things the right way around but some of the terminology is leading people into confusion. The wet steam region in the diagram is a set of conditions where the liquid and vapour phases of water are in equilibrium. At the saturated water border in the diagram the partial pressure of the vapour is near zero because the equilibrium is shifted towards the liquid phase. At the dry saturated steam border the equilibrium is very much shifted towards the vapour phase and the partial pressure of the vapour approaches the overall ambient pressure whatever that is.
          I think Engineer48 believes that wet steam must be white cloudy stuff but this is not so. Water vapour is always clear and colourless and wet steam can be too. In white cloudy steam the vapour is in equilibrium with water droplets rather than a single mass of water.

  • My2c

    I guess Engineer48 confuses
    – wet steam (= mixture of steam and water droplets)
    – saturated steam (also sometimes referred as ‘dry steam’ or just ‘steam’
    – superheated steam

    • Chapman

      I do not think Engineer gets too confused about much – other than the obscure identity of posters who use initials that suggest a connection to “it-which-shall-not-be-mentioned”.

      • Bruce__H

        No. Engineer has been using the wrong terminology, just as My2c says. He (E48) only has to check the website that he is using for his calculations to see this.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Bruce,

          Where did I use the wrong terminology?

          Saturated (dry) steam results when water is heated to the boiling point (sensible heating) and then vaporized with additional heat (latent heating). If this steam is then further heated above the saturation point, it becomes superheated steam (sensible heating).

          My point to My2c was superheated steam is invisible.
          .

          • My2c

            I did never deny that superheated steam is invisible.
            But what to you think, how long will the barely (couple of Deg) superheated steam remain superheated when it gets released to cool, humid air, and get mixed with it? And what will then happen? You will see a steam plume.

    • roseland67

      I think Engineer 48 has a good grasp on
      Energy balance, Heat transfer, steam, electric and fluid power.
      However, most of the calculations and equations usually have multiple gaping holes in them because Rossi does not supply enough information to make valid conclusions.
      This usually pushes the local community to guessing and making assumptions to fit their arguments.

    • Engineer48

      Hi My2c,

      Try this:

      Saturated (dry) steam results when water is heated to the boiling point (sensible heating) and then vaporized with additional heat (latent heating). If this steam is then further heated above the saturation point, it becomes superheated steam (sensible heating).

      Plus superheated steam is invisible as I showed in the video I sent you.
      .

      • GiveADogABone

        ‘A picture is worth a thousand words.’
        http://www.spiraxsarco.com/Resources/Pages/Steam-Tables/saturated-steam.aspx

        http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/steam-flow-rate-through-piping.html
        Equation:
        ms = 3600*PI*(v/V) * (d/2)^2
        ms: Steam Flow Rate (kg/h)
        v: Steam Velocity (m/s)
        V: Specific Volume (m^3/kg)
        d: Pipe Inner Diameter (m)

        ms=3600/24 kg/h
        v=? m/s
        V=1/0.575 m^3/kg
        d=0.3 m

        1500=3600*PI*(v*0.575)*(0.3/2)^2
        v = 15/(36*PI*0.575*0.0225) = 15/1.463=10.25 m/s

        Computer check:
        Select advanced options
        Pipe Inner Diameter 300mm
        Steam Pressure 0 barG
        Steam Temperature 100C
        Steam Velocity 10 m/s
        Calculate
        Steam Flow Rate 1520.77kg/hr

        Mass flow rate in E-cat = 36000 kg/day = 1500kg/hr

        Conclusion:
        At a mass flow rate of 1500kg/hr in the E-cat, the steam flow in a 300mm diameter pipe containing steam at 0 barG and 100C is 10 m/s to a reasonable engineering approximation.

        Would anyone like to offer a different answer?

    • Paul Maher

      We don’t need any steam from LENR to get to electricity production. Thermoelectric devices will do the job nicely. Nanotechnology, and Metamaterials, both singly and layered arrangements like the Lanthanum Aluminate / Strontium Titanate Interface loom before us. Of course steam generation via CECR/LENR is on the move. Have you been following Phyllis Young and Brillouin Energy in their attempt to bring it to the Standing Rock Sioux in North Dakota?

  • Paul Maher

    Why don’t all of you naysayers simply admit that the thought of such a profound development simply scares the poop out of you. Do you think for a moment that you will be able to stop the relationship that Brillouin Energy has entered into with the Standing Rock Sioux?. Or perhaps you will be able to impact the DoD’s coming report that the House Armed Services Committee has asked for concerning the utility of LENR?
    Or perhaps you will be able to stop NASA from building LENR powered Spaceplanes?
    Developments in Condensed Matter Physics, Nanotechnology, and development in Metamaterials have produced a butt load of new ways to extract energy from the environment without slathering it in oil.
    Grin and bear it!
    @pmaher_art

    • jimbo92107

      As Rossi has said in response to being called a fraud, “Maybe you are right.”

      But maybe you are wrong. Are you willing to be wrong? It’s important. I am. I think Rossi is a con man, but if I’m wrong, I will dance in the streets, for the world is saved.

      Unfortunately, Rossi won’t be the first bullshit artist that claimed he was going to save the world. Won’t be the last, either. Bullshit artists like Rossi are as common as greed.

      • Paul Maher

        Hey Jimbo, Rossi isn’t the only game in town. NASA is building an LENR Spaceplane, NAVSEA and ARPA-E love it. Replication exists for at least 200 labs around the world.
        Keep an eye on Brillouin Energy and the Standing Rock Sioux led by Phyllis Young. She was wiith Brillouin a while back for a Congressional show and tell and has entered int an agreement with Brillouin Energy to bring LENR to her Tribe.

        • jimbo92107

          Here is a link to a report on NASA’s LENR project:

          http://nari.arc.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/Wells_TM2014-218283%20Low%20Energy%20Nuclear%20Reaction%20Aircraft_0.pdf

          Please note that nowhere in the report did NASA find a working example of a LENR reactor. It’s a shame to write such a nice paper for no reason.

          • Paul Maher

            Here’s a link to what NASA’s Langley Research Center Chief Scientist Dr. Joseph Zawodny has to say about LENR. Note the LENR powered spaceplanes at the end of the video, a previous revision had a North Carolina Locomotive at the end. I don’t know how many Megawatt’s it takes to power an electric locomotive, but I would sure like to see one take a crack at it.
            Zawodny makes no bones about the validity of their findings, Dr Dennis Bushnell does the same as well as Dr. Doug Wells with his work on LENR Spaceplanes. Look to NASA if you want to know the truth of the matter!!

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBjA5LLraX0 Spaceplanes from NASA

          • jimbo92107

            Notice a little something missing from the NASA guy’s talk?

            RESULTS. His little “differential tiles” haven’t produced squat. How do I know? Simple. If they had produced positive results, it would dominate the headlines of every news organization on the planet.

            I don’t blame them for trying. What I do blame them for is hyping a theory that hasn’t been proved, then showing us a shiny cartoon space plane. It’s called “blue sky,” a form of bullshit. NASA is not immune to bullshit, as we all know. It’s a large organization with lots of people working on the cutting edge of human knowledge. In their efforts to explore every possibility, they have even funded research into LENR. Good for them, but this doesn’t mean LENR is real. LENR is still an unproved theory.

          • Paul Maher

            Balderdash!!

          • Paul Maher
        • roseland67

          Paul,
          What scares me is that people believe everything they read on the Internet

          • Paul Maher

            I’ve been following and collecting new ways of extracting energy from the environment for nearly 8 years now. There is a massive body of proof concerning the validity of LENR, ZPE, and TE-PV on the internet and elsewhere. What scares me is the number of folks that refuse to remove their heads from the sand like so many Ostriches.
            We are teetering on the edge of a new and exciting age of clean, low cost and scalable energy sources. In the not to distant future Fossil Fuel is going to go the way of wagon trains and 8-track tape players, and the world will be a much happier place because of it.

    • Eyedoc

      The Sioux deal gives me confidence……the DoD not so much, thats where you’ll get the ol “too dangerous for the public” BS….just watch (hopefully the Natives can save our asses)

    • Mark Dansie

      Why bother just go buy some solar panels like millions of others and have as much free energy as you like lol

      • MorganMck

        Very interesting to see you around here Mark. I thought you had totally written Rossi off as a certain fraud years ago. At least that is what you said then. Have you had a change of heart?

    • Bruce__H

      Not at all.

      Personally, I don’t think Rossi has what he claims to have, but if it were real I would welcome it. It would be fascinating and, of course, important.

    • Axil Axil

      If LENR is a yet undiscovered part of physical law, it’s never going to go away. I hope that science will start looking at the low energy stuff like this fifth force that they have just discovered and get away from the high energy CERN type science,

  • INVENTOR INVENTED

    It looks like Rossi had an operating machine and they are making specious arguments about ventilation.
    I saw alot of hot steam coming out of that hose.

  • Axil Axil

    Nano-skeletal catalyst: https://www.google.com/patents/US9023754

    Quote: “The oxide etching apparatus preferably employs a supercritical etch solution, while the leaching apparatus preferably employs a supercritical leaching solution. In certain embodiments where the use of leaching is appropriate, selective leaching with a basic solution is preferably used to remove the substantial portion of the filler material from the bulk structure. Preferably, the filler material left is present in a relatively stable alloy phase (e.g., the alloy phase is more stable than other alloy phases given the set of materials).”

    The production of Nano dimensioned nickel requires multiple leching operations using water near the boiling point. The aluminum substrate must be removed to reveal the microparticles of nickel with nano dimensional surface features. multiple leaching operations using a fluorine based gas or acid may be used and the application of plasma treatment as was seen in the Lugano powder. The waste heat would be flushed down the drain on repeated cycles until all substrate material is removes from the nickel micro powder.

    Evidence of plasma sintering and the presence of molybdenum, chromium. and rare earths upon assay examination of the Lugano fuel was a mystery until the plasma sintering of equal parts aluminum and nickel micron sized particles with additives is revealed in the nickel Nano-skeletal catalyst patent. Acid or gas etching of aluminum oxide to remove the aluminum substrate using multiple etching cycles would be needed to produce a highly purified resulting product.

    Rossi will not allow IH to see this process since it is central and pivotal to the functioning of his technology.

  • Axil Axil

    Connent moved to the following thread:

    Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was Endothermic (Update — AR: Water Used for Cooling Purposes)

  • jimbo92107

    As Rossi has said in response to being called a fraud, “Maybe you are right.”

    But maybe you are wrong. Are you willing to be wrong? It’s important. I am. I think Rossi is a con man, but if I’m wrong, I will dance in the streets, for the world is saved.

    Unfortunately, Rossi won’t be the first bullshit artist that claimed he was going to save the world. Won’t be the last, either. Bullshit artists like Rossi are as common as greed.

  • Eyedoc

    What a “lawyerfest” gravytrain …APCO to the fore!……the amends will never end till trial

  • Eyedoc

    What a “lawyerfest” gravytrain …APCO to the fore!……the amends will never end till trial

  • Mark Dansie

    Why bother just go buy some solar panels like millions of others and have as much free energy as you like lol

    • MorganMck

      Very interesting to see you around here Mark. I thought you had totally written Rossi off as a certain fraud years ago. At least that is what you said then. Have you had a change of heart?

  • Slad

    According to Mr Rothwells source one sensor, somewhere, reads 1atm

  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    The majority of posters on this subject are various types of Engineers, Chemists and other such professional people that can work with varied facts and test the validity or not of various proposals using solid engineering, chemical and physics principals.

    What we seem to have come up with opposes a lot of “trust me” claims from Jed and others.

    So we are not so much Pro Rossi but Pro does it pass the physical reality smell test.
    .

  • George N

    I remember reading somewhere that Rossi would be willing to sell his e-cat secrets for $100 million. Would it be in the realm of possibility to open a kick-starter campaign to raise those funds? Maybe set up some kind of third party escrow account where the funds would only be transfered after several independent groups have successfully made replications of the latest e-cat advances, using only the totaly open source blueprints Rossi provides. If donations do not reach the $100 million goal, then the funds are either returned or given to charities. The largest kickstarter campaign to date has been $20 million for a watch; I dont think $100 million for unlimited green energy is out of the realm of possibility. Then maybe the open source community can figure out how to make the e-cat stable enough for consumer use.

  • sam
  • Engineer48

    Hi My2c,

    Try this:

    Saturated (dry) steam results when water is heated to the boiling point (sensible heating) and then vaporized with additional heat (latent heating). If this steam is then further heated above the saturation point, it becomes superheated steam (sensible heating).

    Plus superheated steam is invisible as I showed in the video I sent you.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    Where did I use the wrong terminology?

    Saturated (dry) steam results when water is heated to the boiling point (sensible heating) and then vaporized with additional heat (latent heating). If this steam is then further heated above the saturation point, it becomes superheated steam (sensible heating).

    My point to My2c was superheated steam is invisible.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi My2c,

    The calculator shows the min temp for superheated steam at the inputted pressure. It is my definition superheated steam at that min temp. OK just at the start of superheated steam with 0.0 deg of superheat but still superheated. However with ANY pressure increase above 0.0 barG and it is no longer superheated so in a practical world, the usable superheat temp is above that shown.

    I believe the measured steam temp was around 103C at the claimed 0.0 barG, so it had 3 deg C of superheat.

    I will state again what you showed in your video is not superheated steam and it had a lower enthalpy than superheated steam as even you showed by the heating water example.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    Actually the physics of the location and the investigation of several possible plant processes do support that a process could have occurred there and any water heat from the process could have been dealt with in a way according to normal plant engineering process.

    We do not know what the process could have been but have identified several that fit the observed circumstances.
    .

    • roseland67

      48,

      I am not saying your possibilities cannot be true, they all are possible.
      You’re taking google earth satellite pictures of rooftops to support a “possibility” when all it would take is Rossi saying 20% of the heat went into the product, 20% went out the roof vents, 40% went down the drain and 20% went out the garage door.
      Done, simple, no guessing about roof vent sizes, available water flow rates, blower/fan curves, etc.
      Then all of these inane suppositions, calculations and estimates can be practically accomplished.
      Do you see any reason why Rossi could not simply state above? Or do you believe it will impact his IP, the customers IP or the trial?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Roselands,

        2 thoughts there:

        1) NDA with the customer as his production was highly confidential and may have represented a new, under test, generation of whatever the JMP plant was.

        2) Rossi is keeping some missiles in reserve to hurl at IH during the trial.

        Suggest there is some % of both involved.
        .

  • Axil Axil

    If LENR is a yet undiscovered part of physical law, it’s never going to go away. I hope that science will start looking at the low energy stuff like this fifth force that they have just discovered and get away from the high energy CERN type science,

  • Slad

    Steam dries itself out (or even superheats) when it expands, and a steam plume will not be easily cooled by surrounding air due to its insulative qualities.

  • Slad

    You cannot know that (ie. what’s in the hose) for sure. Do your feet hurt with all this dancing on pin heads?

    Based on his latest post referencing it, E48 seems to be using the normal terminology.

    Based on your initial post above regarding pressure changes, I can only imagine you are confusing yourself.

  • Paul Maher

    We don’t need any steam from LENR to get to electricity production. Thermoelectric devices will do the job nicely. Nanotechnology, and Metamaterials, both singly and layered arrangements like the Lanthanum Aluminate / Strontium Titanate Interface loom before us. Of course steam generation via CECR/LENR is on the move. Have you been following Phyllis Young and Brillouin Energy in their attempt to bring it to the Standing Rock Sioux in North Dakota?

  • Paul Maher

    Wet Steam, Dry Steam and Saturated Steam, boy oh boy are there lots of kinds of steam.
    My understanding of Dry Steam is that there is no discernable water present, as the H2O
    has been reduced to an ionic state, a little plasma like. Is this a bag of beans, or am I on track? I am not a physicist, just a staunch supporter of a number of new energy paradigms.

  • Slad

    Bruce,It is not persuasive at all, because when you say:
    “The contents of the hose must contain water vapour with an pecific enthalpy greater than the latent heat of vapourization of water.”
    …You just described superheated water vapour, which is only possible at the critical point of water, somewhere north of 100atm: It’s a physical impossibility otherwise.

    Your math is wrong, trust me.

    My2c and you are confusing each other. You both could choose to benefit from the knowledge of two people who have been taught the thermodynamics of steam, and who have made several posts trying to explain the basics to you.

    Please watch the video E48 posted in reply to My2c,

  • Slad

    You said “superheated water vapour”, not “superheated steam”…

    • Bruce__H

      Sorry. You are absolutely correct. I misquoted you.

      Is there a distinction between superheated water vapour and superheated steam?

      • Slad

        Superheated water ‘vapour’ can only exist at very high pressures… It’s just superheated water, it would instantly vapourise (become steam) if the pressure dropped.

        Superheated steam is h2o heated above the its saturation enthalpy, aka the saturation point.

  • Slad

    Reading this again, I thought you meant you had tried some much more complex manipulations to prove that your video steam plume contained superheated water vapour, hence why it is visible.

    It would be best to use the proper terminology: water vapour is not steam.

    My2cs maths is ok, he just doesnt manage to prove it’s superheated steam.

  • Slad

    Superheated steam is steam heated above the point that all the tiny drops of water vapour inside it evaporate.

    Plasma is much hotter.

  • GiveADogABone
  • GiveADogABone

    The header article for this thread quotes IH’s amended answer :-

    ’82. … Murray also recognized that the building in which the Plant was located had no method to
    ventilate the heat that would be produced by the Plant were it producing the amount of steam claimed by Rossi, Leonardo, and Penon …’
    A bit of a problem here? No, the heat was embodied in hydrocarbon fuels.

    ‘… such that persons would not have been able to work in the building if the Rossi/Leonardo/Penon claims were true. ‘
    Not a problem. ALL heat, bar the last few kilowatts was embodied in hydrocarbon fuels and the ambient temperature would have been fine.

    ‘This conflicted with the claims of individuals who had been in the building when the Plant was operating, all of whom claimed the temperature in the building was near or not much greater than the outside temperature.’
    The ‘claims of individuals’ were correct, in my view.

    83. ‘… when in fact it was simply recycling steam from the Plant and sending it back to the Plant as water.’
    Doing that would require a condenser to turn the steam into water, which is actually what happens. The issue is what the heat removed by the condenser does and where it goes.

    In my view claims 82 and 83 fail.

    Overall Thermal Analysis of the Production Plant Process in the 1MW test in Doral, Florida :
    Note: All this depends on there being a gas supply.

    Consider a transport container that contains the whole production process of SMR(Steam Methane Reforming) and FT(Fischer-Tropsch). Another container contains an E-cat producing 1MW of steam and receiving a condensate return flow.

    Inputs to the SMR+FT container :
    1a: Air for combustion @ 20C
    1b: Methane for combustion @ 20C
    2: Methane for process raw material @ 20C
    3: Towns water for cooling @ 20C
    4: E-cat steam that goes to a heat exchanger @ 100C
    Electricity to run the plant

    Outputs from the SMR+FT container :
    1: Flue Gas from combustion @ 60C
    2: Liquid+solid hydrocarbons @ 60C
    3: Towns water return from cooling @ 60C
    4: E-cat return condensate from heat exchanger @60C
    Heat loss from container surfaces is zero.

    1: The combustion of air and methane is clearly inputting to the SMR+FT container considerable quantities of heat and the flue gases are cool; no different to a domestic central heating boiler. This air flow is taken from the ambient air inside the container and maintains the ambient air at a reasonable temperature. The air eventually emerges from the container via the flue gases, so the container must have a grill through which the outside air can enter when the doors are shut.

    2: The methane is the raw material for making the liquid+solid hydrocarbons that are things like diesel, paraffin, avaiation kerosene and solid paraffin wax. They contain a great deal of embodied energy that can be released by combustion at a later time and another place. These are fuels that are storable.

    3: With so much heat around there is going to be a need for some cooling by air or water at 20C. How much cooling? Perhaps 20kw for the water.

    4: The E-cat supplies 1MW of net enthalpy.

    Where did the 1MW of heat from the E-cat (and more from the combustion) go?
    Into the liquid+solid hydrocarbon fuels where it is stored.

    Where did the most of the mass of methane go?
    Into the liquid+solid hydrocarbon fuels where it is stored. Some went up the flue gas pipe as combustion products.

    How much heat was released into the Doral factory?
    About 20kw via the towns water cooling return and that went into the drains, so nothing escapes into the building, except perhaps in a bit of warmth in the liquid+solid fuels that are made. Even the heat from the lights inside the SMR+FT container goes into the liquid+solid fuels.

    Now you know why IH are on a hopeless quest to find a heat signature, except perhaps from the flue pipe and that will be as cold as the exhaust from my domestic condensing boiler.

  • GiveADogABone

    Transferred.

  • GiveADogABone

    The dryness fraction, so I think you have it the wrong way round. 100% dry is on the right hand side of the dome. You can equally talk about the % wetness and the right hand side of the dome would be 0% wet.

    Take a look at the graphic. There is a wet saturated line on the left of the dome and a dry saturated line on the right side of the dome. ‘Equal enthalpy’ lines are vertical lines on the pressure/enthalpy chart above.

    • Bruce__H

      I have things the right way around but some of the terminology is leading people into confusion. The wet steam region in the diagram is a set of conditions where the liquid and vapour phases of water are in equilibrium. At the saturated water border in the diagram the partial pressure of the vapour is near zero because the equilibrium is shifted towards the liquid phase. At the dry saturated steam border the equilibrium is very much shifted towards the vapour phase and the partial pressure of the vapour approaches the overall ambient pressure whatever that is.
      I think Engineer48 believes that wet steam must be white cloudy stuff but this is not so. Water vapour is always clear and colourless and wet steam can be too. In white cloudy steam the vapour is in equilibrium with water droplets rather than a single mass of water.

  • It all seems so ridiculous, all they have to do is go back to the plant start it back up and watch it work again to disprove Industrial Heats ridiculous claim. That plaint was “allegedly” working for an entire year and in that time if they didn’t know how it was functioning? What a completely asinine claim. This trail is looking more and more like a calculated delay tactic.

    • Obvious

      Rossi spent the evening between the Plant shut down and Penon retrieving the water meter replacing the fuel charges (according to Rossi on the JoNP). The plant cannot simply be re-started and run the way it was operated.
      The lines were flushed and the 480V supply panel were removed also, and who knows what else was changed, according to some reports (Murray, Weaver). And the Customer has presumably moved on.
      All that guarantees that the Plant operation cannot be verified. The trail is looking like it was calculatedly obscured by the operator.

  • It all seems so ridiculous, all they have to do is go back to the plant start it back up and watch it work again to disprove Industrial Heats ridiculous claim. That plaint was “allegedly” working for an entire year and in that time if they didn’t know how it was functioning? What a completely asinine claim. This trail is looking more and more like a calculated delay tactic.

    • Obvious

      Rossi spent the evening between the Plant shut down and Penon retrieving the water meter replacing the fuel charges (according to Rossi on the JoNP). The plant cannot simply be re-started and run the way it was operated.
      The lines were flushed and the 480V supply panel were removed also, and who knows what else was changed, according to some reports (Murray, Weaver). And the Customer has presumably moved on.
      All that guarantees that the Plant operation cannot be verified. The trail is looking like it was calculatedly obscured by the operator.