Analyzing E-Cat Plant Pump Photos Indicate COP>1 (Engineer48)

There are a couple of new posts from Engineer48 that provide a new way of looking at possible COP from the Doral E-Cat Plant that I thought were worthy of a new post.

To further show the COP = 1 claim is not correct, we can see the 24 computer controlled pumps that are set to 18kg/h flow (well 22 are set to max and 2 are set to 50%). That gives a total flow from those 24 pumps (6 pumps per each Tiger slab reactor) of (24 x 18) – 18 = 414kg/hr. Assuming the total flow into the reactors was 1,500kg/hr, that leaves 1,086kg/hr to be provided by the main pump.

Even if the only pumps operational were the 24 x 18kg/hr pumps, the COP would be 414kg/hr / 30kg/hr (COP 1) = 13.8.

Who needs a flow meter when we can read the flow volume manually programmed into the 24 x 18kg/hr pumps?

BTW at 30kg/hr total flow at COP = 1, 5 of the 6 pumps in each row would need to be turned off and the remaining pump set to maintain a flow of 7.5kg/hr. But as you can clearly see all of the 24 pumps have a GREEN light on that indicates the pump is operating as programmed at 18kg/hr.

Would seem the COP = 1 claim is “BUSTED”

e482

 

==============================================================

20kWh/h is still a significant amount of heat to dissipate. As I’m not a thermal engineer and have no coal face experience with 20kW heat dissipators I’ll let other give their opinion.

What I do know is the flow for COP = 1 would need to be 30kg/hr of water into the 4 x Tiger/slab reactors (7.5kg/hr into each Tiger/slab reactor).

From photographic evidence it is clear that there were 6 x 18kg/hr pumps on each Tiger for a total of 24 pumps. That same photographic evidence shows the 24 pumps all in Green status and delivering 18kg/hr of flow except for 2 that were set to 50% or 9kg/hr. If the computer controlled pumps were not delivering the programmed flow, Yellow and Red warning lights would be flashing to indicate a flow error. But all we see are Green lights showing the pumps are working OK and delivering the flow they are set to deliver.

This is then a total flow of 414kg/hr or a COP of 13.8. The rest of the 1,086kg/hr flow needed to deliver a COP = 50 was delivered by a master pump.

This photo would suggest the claimed COP = 1 is false and that the ECat reactor delivered at least 276kWh/h just from the flow of the topping up pumps.

Have attached a plant schematic I created from the photographic evidence that shows how the master pump and the individual reactor topping up pumps were arranged and operated. This schematic is not conjecture as it is based on the released photographs.

If there was no customer, the heat dissipators in the JMP area would need to discharge at least 276kWh/h of heat or around 1/2 of the 500kWh/h that the heat dissipators in the October 2011 1MW ECat reactor test.

It would be very noisy in the whole warehouse, due to the concrete walls and floor. Yet it was not and the topping up pump lights stayed Green as they delivered 414kg/hr to the reactors.

e481

  • Thomas Kaminski

    I am convinced.l Of course IH could say that all of the pumps but one turned off right after the picture was taken….

    • Engineer48

      Hi Thomas,

      There are 4 Tigers/slab active or the electrical input would be less than 20kWh/hr. So 1 pump per Tiger would deliver 72kg/hr for a COP = 2.4.

      As the IH “experts” have not talked about these “Smoking Gun” jumps, I doubt they realise what they represent.
      .

  • blanco69

    These pictures show great evidence of flow rates through those pumps but without any actual temperature evidence I’m not sure what claim these pictures are intending to bust. However, it’s good work Mr R …err I mean Engineer48.

    • Warthog

      What it “busts” is the meme started by Jed Rothwell that the COP is wrong because of flowmeter error. I pointed out long ago that the flowmeter was largely a backup to the precision/accuracy of the pumps. This type of pump is VERY good at delivering consistently precise and accurate flows over long periods of time.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Blanco,

      The only flow measured is the flow into the reactors.

      IH have claimed output superheated steam temp of ~103C and pressure of ~0.0 barG. From Mats electricity account we know the the reactor used ~22kWh/h of energy. Assuming the pumps and other control systems used ~2kWh/h, that is ~20kWh/h into the heaters.

      From those numbers the needed flow for COP = 1 is ~30kg/hr.

      So assuming the electrical heater input is ~20kWh/h, the superheated steam temp is ~103C and the pressure is ~0.0 barG, ~414kg/hr of flow from those pumps would representante a COP of ~13.8.
      .

      • GiveADogABone

        There is something else of interest in that photo and it is right at the bottom. It’s the drain arrangements. Fit a small bore drain on the centre of a bigger pipe and what do you get when you use it? A water level in the bigger pipe at the lowest point in the bore of the drain. That sort of arrangement does not empty the horizontal pipe properly and where is the flowmeter that supposedly runs half-full?

        • Engineer48

          Hi GiveADogABone,

          You can see the reactor drain system in my plant schematic. Remember the floor of the reactor container is ~18in above the slab. But yes that drain will leave some water in the lowest drain pipe from the lowest Tiger reactor.

          I assume the flow meter is outside and near the concentrate condenser tank, as in the schematic, but that is just a guess. If that circuit had a similar drain then yes it could leave the flow meter half filled after the reactor shutdown drain and as that water slowly evaporated, it might leave a residue stain inside the flow meter.
          .

  • Gerard McEk

    Very interesting Engineer48, good research! As Kaminski says below it is only 1/100 of a second of the snapshot. But I am sure video’s will back-up this. About the main pump, do you have any photographic evidence on that pump?
    It is intriguing that two pumps of the third tiger were running only at 50%. Would that tiger reactor have had less output power than the other three?

    • Engineer48

      Hi Gerard,

      These pumps are topping up pumps that maintain the water level inside the reactors. The bank set to 18kg/hr less may just mean the main flow into that Tiger may be a bit higher than the others and that Tiger needed just a bit less topping up flow.

      Please understand these topping up pumps only supplied ~25% of the total flow and the main pump supplied the other ~75%.
      .

      • Jamie Sibley

        I too am very interested in knowing why you believe there is a main pump, in addition to the metering pumps? I do not recall any photos showing a larger single pump.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Jamie,

          24 pumps x 18kg/hr = 432kg/hr. Quoted total flow was 1,500kg/hr. So there needs to be a larger pump or pumps to supply the bulk of the flow.

          I also asked Andrea who told me the small pumps are just topping up pumps.

          His statement is backed up by the physical evidence.
          .

        • Ged

          There is also a whole other area of the plant, beyond the rack those pumps there are serving, so there has to be something moving the water around for that area too.

  • Rossi claims 1MW and a real client, and endothermic process, COP 50 and saturated steam.

    anything different is a huge problem. huge and problem is an understatement.

    COP1.5 could be acceptable if it was admitted.
    a fake client could be accepted if it was told so
    hot water is ok if told so

    I would be happy, moderately happy, if Rossi have announced that the test was COP=1.5 with just a radiator and hotwater producing 30kW with a MTBF of 5 days.
    Like me IH would be happy, as any engineer kow that if COP is 1.5 at 100C for MTBF 5 days, it can be improved to infinite for 6 month, with the help of good engineers and a good nanotech lab.

    we have tolerated too much approximation around ethical questions.

    • Ged

      So far nothing precludes Rossi’s claims. Though that could be easily changed if the right data comes forth.

      Nonetheless, even if he claimed COP 1.5 I doubt people would challenge him any less, and in fact may have challenged him even more as it is easier to be within measurement error at that threshold. Dunno how much nanotech would help, unfortunately, without a precise working theory to apply nanotech to.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Alain,

      Superheated not saturated steam.

      BTW what was the COP of the October 2011 ECat reactor that ran in SSM mode for 5 hours and produced 500kWh/hr?
      .

    • Stanny Demesmaker

      Btw AlainCo, IH accepted the Lugano report as correct. They didn’t give any specific critiques of the Lugano report, so your claim that the report contained a huge basic calculation error is out the window. They need to debunk the report to win the courtcase.
      There you already have your proof that the e-cat works.

      • IH and me have been fooled by Lugano test.

        the argument on total versus IR-band emissivity is solid.
        it may be countered by a new argument, but we see none.

        Rossi could quickly end the uncertainty with good test, even 24H with serious protocol.

        that there is no such test while his reputation is deeply damaged, accused of having fooled a previous licensee, of dismounting correct instruments, is an answer in itself.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Alain,

          But not solid enough for the Lugano professors to retract their findings. So until they do, their findings stand and trump any other claim.

          Easy for someone who was not at the event to throw stones.

          BTW the ERV was the one who removed the IH instruments and replaced them with the instruments IH had preapproved the ERV to use.
          .

          • on the opposite, that Lugano professors refuse to answer that clear mistake, at least in the report, is tragically clear.

            any mistake can be forgiven if there is a correction, either to reexplain results are good with good arguments, or to explain how they are bad.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Alain,

            Clearly in their expert opinion there is no mistake. I have not seen any equal experts dispute their data. The only ones that I know of that dispute the data are not equivalent experts.
            .

          • Guru Khalsa

            Sure I get most of my information from Rossi says as he is the only one talking. If IH has a story I would be interested in hearing it. So far their story goes like this: Penon and Fabiani colluded with Rossi to fabricate test results for the 1 MW plant. The Lugano test was flawed. The test results are wrong. Levi, Bo Höistad, and Hanno Essen are a bunch of incompetent idiots. IH couldn’t make it work so naturally it only follows that the Ecat never worked. Rossi fooled everybody and anyone who believes him is delusional.
            The problem with the IH narrative is that once you label Rossi as a con man then basically you are saying he has fooled everybody from the start. There are just too many people and too many circumstances that would have to be manipulated for me to believe it possible. I may as well believe someone has a cold fusion device capable of COP 50.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            That’s not their story. That is your contrived version of what they have posited in the lawsuit.

          • Guru Khalsa

            That’s the only story I have heard. Have you heard something else? Please share.

          • that is the problem.
            why don’t they admit they made an error.

            the error is so evident it cannot be denied, just opposed by rewriting the explanation correctly.
            but they don’t.

            in itself it is very strange.

            it is not a conspiracy theory like inverted clamp, but a clear mistake in IR thermometry.

            don’t you catch the problem?

            you seriously don’t start to understand ?

          • Warthog

            Perhaps they don’t think they made an error.

            If you recall, when the test was finished, in addition to samples of the spent fuel, they also obtained a sample of the ceramic used for the outer body specifically for the stated purpose of measuring the “real” emissivity of the ceramic.

            So there is no reason for them to “admit” that they “made an error”. They have an automatic “out” if the emissivities turn out to differ.

            There is another meme than the ones you and the “emissivity error” crowd is filling the web with, and that is that they indeed measured the ceramic’s emissivity, and found that it didn’t change the original data set.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Warthog,

            Your last paragraph describes the Lugano situation as I understand it.

            Then there are 5.5 hours of 490kWh/h of SSM ECat energy delivery 28 Oct 2011 with no heater current.

            Plus several Black HotCat test runs.

        • Ged

          Where is the proof he dismounted “correct instruments”? I have missed it if presented, so would be very interesting to see.

        • Guru Khalsa

          Hi Alain,
          I find it interesting that you and IH are on such good terms that you make reference to ‘we’. Is it possible to share who is your contact person in IH, in the spirit of transparency?
          Don’t you find it curious that IH manufactured the Ecats, manufactured the charge and never in 2 years did their own tests, if they had any doubts as to the viability of the tech? Forget the doubts what about due diligence and further documentation for investors? Don’t you find it curious that the dogbone Ecats from the Lugano test that IH had in its possession have disappeared? Sorry but there is just too many inconsistencies in the IH account to take them seriously.

          • we is for we the LENR community.
            I’m sorry we are split around such a tragedy.

            we have work to do to make LENR real, and not to lose time with crooks.

          • Guru Khalsa

            I had high hopes for Rossi and IH when I first heard they were joining forces. I was disappointed it didn’t work out because I thought IH gave Rossi the credibility he lacked. I don’t think Rossi is easy to work with but that does’t make him a crook.

            But it is in the courts now and IH has chosen a strategy for success that calls Rossi a crook. Maybe that is the only strategy available that offers them a chance for success, I don’t know I am not a lawyer. Personally I can’t tell who is lying and will wait for discovery, if it ever gets there, to make up my mind. Keeping an open mind is a good thing.

          • Omega Z

            There are over a half a million commercial/industrial businesses in the U.S. alone that use low grade heat/steam. Several million more that aren’t included with that. It’s a huge market.

        • Billy Jackson

          I just find it highly unlikely that Rossi is capable of fooling 7 experienced testers who had full access to the e-cat except for the fuel. (the fuel is unimportant.. as the thing ran for 31 days which precludes chemical reaction, and no above background radiation)

          I find it hard to believe that people will believe others who have nothing to do with the test or really LENR field in general. But because they have a degree does not make them an expert at everything and the closer you are to experimental work the less they are likely to know (specialized).. if we were to believe everyone that said that’s impossible then we would never invent anything new.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Maybe this is an extra endothermic purification step after the first exothermic reaction. A hot aqueous wash to remove any of the remaining salts (like sodium aluminate and sodium hydroxide)?
    http://sti.srs.gov/fulltext/rp2002530/fig2.gif

    • wpj

      Only exothermic if you are using the fine powder alloy, which I believe would be a no-no here on safety grounds. You are correct, though that several hot washes would be required.

  • Engineer48

    WE HAVE ERV DATA

    IH exhibit item 5 states:

    According to the data you have reported (averaged data for 10 months or for 3 ERV reports),

    1) the conserved mass flow rate of the system from February to November 2015 was on
    average 33,558 kg/day (1398 kg/h).

    2) the temperature of the water and steam were on average 68.7º C and 102.8º C, respectively.

    3) the steam pressure was reported (for the entire period) to be 0 kPaG

    Surprise, Surprise Jed’s claimed 36,000kg/day is not correct. I mean does that really surprise anybody?

    As for the 0.0 barG steam pressure, the superheater steam can be drawn through the piping and into the heat exchanger by a slightly lower pressure, maybe -0.2 barG on the outlet of the primary side of the heat exchanger.

    So what we have here is 10 months of averaged input water temp, flow rate, output steam temperature and pressure that seems to be more realistic than Jed’s “It was 36,000kg/day every day”. Well Jed that statement is now “BUSTED”.
    .

    • Ged

      Also, note the words “average”, the flow was not constant, of course, but averaging smooths out any time trace (averaging acts as a high pass filter).

      Sadly this is only a snippet with an average across 9 months, but it is something. Hopefully we get the full, real deal soon enough.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Ged,

        What it shows is if Jed did really see data that only had 36,000kg/day data then he was fed cherry picked data by someone or his flow rate data claim is not based on any data.

        Either way what Jed has been claiming to support his claim the data was cooked is not supported by this data and his claim that the flow was 36,000kg/day, every day is BUSTED.

        Of course that averaged ERV data supports the 1MW output. As item 5 didn’t state the averaged electrical heater usage, we can’t from that data calc the COP.
        .

        • Ged

          Exactly true.

          • GiveADogABone

            Not entirely. The electrical supply had a maximum capacity, as all electrical supplies do. The stated maximum capacity of the electrical supply was 200kw with a normal operational maximum of 167kw. Divide 1MW by 167kw and you get CoP=6.

          • Mark

            which i believe is exactly what was needed for the $89million – and that’s worst case scenario built from the absence of the data (as we’re all waiting for the court case)

          • GiveADogABone

            And the worst case scenario for any payment is either CoP=4 or 2.6(not sure which).

          • Engineer48

            Hi GiveADogABone,

            COP <= 2.6 = $0.00 payment.
            .

          • Ged

            An excellent lower bound determination. We also see thick cabling going to the customer, which must draw from the mains, let alone all the other equipment in the office container, computers and pumps. Thank you for the calc.

    • Gerard McEk

      According to my simple calculations I think the plant delivered 0,92 MW on average. (I did not include the superheating).

      • Engineer48

        Hi Gerald,

        The energy delivery is not part of the clause 3.2c $89m claim which only requires a COP >= 6.0.

        Would suggest you need to add in the superheat energy as the customer was paying for the total energy delivered.
        .

        • Ged

          And if the customer was using SMR or the processes WPJ has noted (or even drying heat storage salts), then they could pretty effectively measure a good approximation of the power sent their way even without direct measurements, such as by methane consumption use for the SMR case. It wouldn’t be perfect, necessitating rounding, though.

    • Mark

      I like you!

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Maybe it’s just a standard drying step. Heat until you get a constant LOD (Loss On Drying).

    • wpj

      Can’t be metal sponges, then as these have to be stored over water

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yes, I guess a Karl-Fischer could be done one the wet material before it’s stored under water to determine how much active material there is.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Fischer_titration

        • wpj

          The fine stuff is supplied as 50% with water- a real pain if you have to get an accurate weight on the amount used. Even worse for stirring as it’s magnetic………………….

          • Ged

            That last part sounds horrid to deal with :(.

          • wpj

            Yes, give me Pd/C any day (just stirring some at the moment with ammonium formate and a compound).

  • Engineer48

    Hi Rheulan,

    We need the averaged kWh/h consumption of the ECat reactor heaters, which the item 5 statement failed to disclose.

    Mats Lewan did say he had obtained one on the monthly electrical utility accounts and that suggested the reactor’s heater energy usage was around 20kWh/h. Which would indicate the COP was around 50.

    Rossi’s court statement did say the COP was significantly higher than 50 so the electrical input must have been less than 20kWh/h.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    The only electrical consumption data we have is from Mats that saw a utility bill that indicated 20kWh/h as the averaged energy usage.

    At that consumption the COP is around 50. ie 1,000kW/20kW = 50.
    .

  • bfast

    Ok, so, if I were setting up a scam, I would have the output from one pump flow into the next.

    • GiveADogABone

      Please take a good look at the photo. The pumps suck through a short pipe from the header and discharge DIRECTLY into the reactor.

    • psi2u2

      You seem to be kind of new here.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Because none of IHs employees would notice over the course of a year?
      If you shut one down all the others would burn out, drawing attention.

      Stick to your day job.

      • BillH

        Apparently IH staff noticed absolutely nothing for a whole year, or so they claim, so it’s entirely feasible. Their entire defence appears to be that they were totally incompetent for a year. They are so dumb it is believable.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Ouchy, harsh Bill, harsh.

          I wonder if the lawyers asked for all communications between the IH Staff and IH management. That would make some interesting reading I bet!

          • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

            Well.
            As the case has developed and with the new clues/proofs (i wont explain all these here)

            For IH to be the good guy we need this:
            Rossi is a really great scammer and created a incredible machine wich no one would notice is a scam.
            He even made IH to build it (even with the design – the pumps filling water one onto another – laugh) at this point they were unable to realize that this would misrepresent the results.
            And they realized of nothing at all during a whole year.
            Also, there must be a lot of people involved in the con and no one spilled any single word who could create suspicions.
            This is best than the movie with Paul Newman and Robert Redford.

            Ok. Just start holliwood and tell me when is done to watch it

        • bfast

          Good point.

  • Engineer48

    Guys,

    IH item 5 talks about 5 example images A – E that are not shown in Abd’s downloaded PDF.

    Anyone know if they can they be obtained as they should be VERY interesting images.

    • you should ask at LENR Forum, if I remember correctly Eric Walker also has access to the court docket

      • Ged

        I don’t think they appear in the docket? LuFong already uploaded everything available from PACER, as far as I am aware.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Barty,

        Thanks.

        I have done that.
        .

  • Mats002

    Again I endorse the analysis of E48 et ECW al but wonder: what is the origin of the pictures that are the base of the analysis? They represent a snapshot of one year operation. Mats Lewans energy bill is (if I remember correctly) from the very first month of operation – maybe the plant was only in partial operation during that period?

    • Engineer48

      Hi Mats002,

      Each piece of information does not make a case by itself.

      But slowly the real physical evidence, such as the high res 24 pump image, the flow merer model number, the averaged electrical kWh/h of energy consumed and now 10 months of averaged ERV data starts to paint a powerful picture that as each new piece of data arrives, becomes stronger and stronger than the probability of a real customer, using a new and highly confidential production process did in fact receive 1MWh/h of thermal energy from the IH manufactured dual 1MW reactors during the 350 days of the trial.

      Additionally data from the 28 Oct 2011 1MW reactor test shows lengthy 5.5 hour periods of SSM were not invented by Rossi during his 350 day stay in the container but were there in 2011 and were there when IH built the dual 1MW reactors.
      .

      • Mats002

        Ho Eng, agree evidence piling up, definitely not piling down 😉

        I like to give you something, not from me but from MFMP. They are to all my perception intellectually honest. It is not a mindboggling result like Rossi deliver but for science it should be: http://magicsound.us/MFMP/MFMP_Research-August2016.pdf

        Thanks to Alan Goldwater.

        • Ged

          Ah, now I am getting all excited again. GS6 is sounding pretty dang impressive, and the offer to Bob to have lab space and grad student labor to carry out experiments is incredible and heartwarming.

          • Mats002

            The ‘crowd’ is us! The peanut gallery ^^

            I especially like “We now think that this signal was generated by nuclear (LENR) activity in the Glowstick cell”. It took many experiments and time to make that statement.

          • psi2u2

            Yes, that report is as exciting in its understated conclusions as it is a brilliantly lucid and comprehensible model of scientific reportage.

            Surely a big congratulations is in order for the whole MFMP team.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Mats002,

          I don’t agree with the Lugano comments for several reasons.

          As an engineer who has been on both sides of such situations, those not there make assumptions that had they been there they might not have made.

          With respect to those making the counter claims, they have no where the experience of the Lugano team.

          The Lugano trial was not the 1st time the Lugano team had used that technique on a Rossi reactor.

          During the debate I read several other experts that stated the way the measurement was done was proper.

          The Lugano team are professionals and would surely recant their results if they found some validity in the others analysis.

          2 other similar Rossi reactors, the Black & stainless flanged and unflanged HotCats were tested with good results.
          .

          • Mats002

            Let’s say this is the lower limit, it can only be better.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Gregory,

    Each of the 24 pumps needed to be manually programed to the desired flow rate which was 18kg/hr of fluid.

    Each pump has 3 status leds.

    Green for everything OK and the desired flow rate is happening.

    Yellow for you need to look at the display as there may be a problem with the flow or pump.

    Red for something serious is wrong and the pump needs attention.

    From the image, the 24 pumps are all in Green status and physically pumping a highly accurate 18kg/hr per pump.
    .

    • Gerald

      I sometimes wonder, why the need of such accurate pumps. Is it just to have 1 less variable in the control or is it just experience. Like the design, every cat build the smae way.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Gerald,

        Those pumps control the fluid level inside each reactor and I believe control the thermal gain in SSM and act to stop thermal runaways.

        So the remote system needs to know that by switching on the pump for X minutes it will reliably deliver Y volume of water into the reactor.

        Plus they are highly reliable as if one of the reactors is getting too hot in SSM that pump MUST work to increase reactor water level, reducing reactor temperature and avoiding a potential thermal runaway or meltdown.
        .

        • Gerald

          I think you are right. Its like driving a car round the bend with rear wheel drive, not using the steering wheel but gently using the gas pendal.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Gerald,

            Not quite like that.

            A main pump supplies 80% of the necessary flow to all reactors in parallel. Then individual topping up pumps supply the last 20% to each individual reactor.

            This allows each reactor’s water level to be slightly varied to control the reactor in SSM.
            .

          • Mats002

            Any photo of the main pump?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Mats002,

            Unluckly no. Likewise no for the flow meter, the condensate tank, the heat exchanger and the reactor superheated steam dumping system.

            Maybe one day.
            .

      • Warthog

        “:Where does that leave us???”

        I’d say in pretty much the same morass of pathological skepticisim that has hampered LENR since 1989.

        • Kevmo ✓ᵀʳᵘᵐᵖ

          If Rossi has $100M in his pocket and has proven in court that his box generated a COP of >6 + an independent report, there’s some progress made.
          Using my analogy, someone could make something out of knowing the Wright brothers flew and they now have the Wrights’ box of airplane parts.

          • Warthog

            “…there’s some progress made.”

            Concur. A court victory for Rossi would provide a strong indicator of the reality of his tech…….but the skeptopaths will fall back to the “but it’s not scientific proof” meme.

            Rossi was right…..multiple working commercial devices are the only thing that “might” convince them. But even then I have my doubts.

          • Kevmo ✓ᵀʳᵘᵐᵖ

            There was a stage the Wright brothers went through after their first set of flights. They were subjected to a steady stream of lookieloos who kept asking for demo flights. Their response was, if we give a demo flight will you buy our airplanes? Strangely enough, the answer was never ‘yes’ until the Army asked for a demo flight. All of those visitors were looking to steal the Wrights’ IP. After all, they were just a couple of bicycle mechanics.

            Rossi might be at that stage, or he might be the best damned scam artist and magician on the planet.

          • Brokeeper

            I follow what you are saying and being quite truthful not skeptical. Thanks!

  • BillH

    Please don’t extract unreliable conclusion from one picture, this process happened over days and weeks. A video showing the meters over several hours might be more convincing. A data logger of all the parameters over the course of the test would have been much more convincing, manual collection of data is always open to errors.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Bill,

      The pump flow rate is manually set and an internal flow meter and 2 x 1 way valves ensure the programned flow is achieved. ERV flow is not obtained from those pumps.

      The ERV flow monitoring is done by a seperate flow meter with an 80mm ID bore.
      .

      • psi2u2

        Perhaps this is a good place to echo what has already been said by many others, appreciating Engineer48s lucid expertise.

      • Ged

        Pipes aren’t invisible unless using metamaterials, so it would be easy enough to see. Even our limited views show most of the plumbing (minus important to us external bits 🙁 ), and the IH employees built the thing.

  • GiveADogABone

    Small steps. I see one pipe connection from the top surface of the pump. Which other surface contains this mythical second pipe? Bottom, sides, front, back?

    • psi2u2

      Well, it could’ve been there! Somewhere. You have to admit. The whole exercise was an exploration of possibilities of fraud and how bf would commit such a thing if he were so inclined. So don’t think that evidence has any bearing on the question. It still could have been there. 😉

      • Engineer48

        Hi Psi2u2,

        If you carefully study the 2 images of the 24 topping up pumps, it is very clear how they are hooked up.

        There are 4 white left to right headers at the floor level. Each of the 4 floor headers has 6 plastic tubes connected to them which feed into the bottom of each set of six pumps inlet. The pumps outlet is at the top and feeds a header above each row of pumps via a short section of tubing. That header then feeds the pumps water left, then down, then forward, then right into the bottom of the adjacent reactor’s shell.
        .

  • TVulgaris

    If the intent of your “friends” is to manipulate you into working enthusiastically in their interests while they’re finagling millions of investment in their other assets, all the while they are slowing release of a product (even if they own the IP) while several other competitive products and processes are being rushed through development, perhaps you need to vet your friends better.

  • Engineer48

    Hi My2c,

    If you do the research, you will find those small topping up pumps do not have the capacity to deliver the total needed flow.

    None of the pictures we have show the main pump. Nor the flow meter, nor the heat exchanger, nor the condensate tank.

    When I worked out the total capacity of the individual pumps could not deliver the stated 1,500kg/hr flow I asked Andrea how this worked. He told me the individual topping up pumps deliver a portion of the flow volume and another large pump deliver the main flow volume.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Philippe,

    None of the pictures we have show the main pump. Nor the flow meter, nor the heat exchanger, nor the condensate tank.

    The superheated steam temp was around 103C at 0.0 barG pressure. It is assumed the outlet of the primary side of the heat exchanger ran at -0.2 barG to draw in the superheated steam.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Gregory,

    The kg/hr flow numbers on the pump do not represent measured flow. They are displaying the pumps programmed flow rate.

    With 24 pumps programmed to deliver 18kg/hr each, the total delivered flow would be 432kg/hr.
    .

  • Ged

    Supposedly, but we don’t have that data, so we must leave that as an “unknown” for now.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    Pumps are not generally considered to heat water.

    Besides the ERV COP calc ignores the inlet water temp and only uses the min superheat enthalpy for the steam pressure minus the enthalpy of boiling water. This ignores any superheat margin energy and the energy used to boil the water. Then, to be conservative, the COP is further reduced by 10%.

    So the ERV’s COP is very conservative.
    .

    • TVulgaris

      There’d be a small heat loss, even though they’re not considered to heat water, unless they waste at or below the water inlet temperature, but the 10% pad in the CoP would overwhelm that

  • Ged

    We can look at the wattage of the pumps, and then their efficiency rating to calculate waste heat, and then the area of contact with the water to estimate proportion of waste heat entering the water. It is part of the overall efficiency calculation for the plant (the true, total system COP), but most folks keep output conservative by looking just at heat of vaporization.

    • roseland67

      GED,

      Can figure a certain amount of energy goes into ” heating, compressing” and making the fluid move, like refrigerant compressors, blowers, hydraulic pumps etc,
      Maybe 1-2000 but/hp?

  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    As far as I know there was the ERV’s flow meter and then Rossi’s identical flow meter. Technically there was only one flow meter.

    While the pumps do have inbuilt flow meters, they are only used to measure the pumps flow and to adjust the pump stroke length to obtain the manually programmed flow targets.

    So there is only one flow meter.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    It seems that due to there being only 4 Tiger/slab reactors, each Tiger needed 6 topping up pumps to maintain the reactor water level.
    .

    • Bruce__H

      Engineer:

      Thanks for so patiently answering my questions.

      I have lost track of the configuration of this thing (the 1 MW plant). I thought there was over 100 reactors in total.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Backup 1MW plant had 51 x 20kW BlueCat reactors.

        Prine reactor had 4 x 250kW Tigers, with 13 internal reactors sharing one external casing per Tiger.
        .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    I originally thought the pumps discharged horizontally directly into the reactor but was told that was not correct.

    On further checking the photographs and checking the pump specs on the net, it was clear the pumps used sucked water from the bottom and discharged it from the top. That mode of operation fits the images.

    Each bank of 6 pumps discharges into a common horizontal header located above the row of pumps and feeds a single Tiger/slab reactor.

    The flow from the discharge at the top of the pump is

    Leave pump discharge port
    Up
    Left
    Down
    Forward
    Right
    Enter reactor
    Get heated into superheated steam
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    The image shows 24 pumps prigrammed to deliver 18kg/hr for a total flow of 432kg/hr. The 24 status leds are all Green, showing the pumps are doing their job with no faults detected.

    To deliver a COP = 1, the flow required is 30kg/hr or 7.5kg/hr per slab which could easily be done with just 1 pump per row at less than 50% capacity.

    So are you suggesting that during the entire 350 days, there was only 1 pump turned on per row, that no one noticed this and for the photo they turned on the other 20 pumps, prigrammed them at 18kg/hr, flooding the reactors, took the photo, then turned 20 pumps off?

    I do note you can see signs of leakage on the pump ports and tubing discoloration fir all the pump feeds, which suggests ALL the pumps were working for the 350 days.

    Which suggest that yes those pumps did deliver their 432kg/hr, which represents a min COP of ~14.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    The condensate tank would be sizable. Any pipes feeding in water from short cycling the reactor would be very obvious and visible.

    From the reports it was the IH crew and Rossi who installed the reactor.
    .

    • Bruce__H

      “Any pipes feeding in water from short cycling the reactor would be very obvious and visible.”

      Why? There are pipes all over the place from what I can see.

      “From the reports it was the IH crew and Rossi who installed the reactor.”

      I see this sort of thing from various people posting here but I don’t understand the force behind the argument. It is IH’s contention in their countersuit that the “sole reason” for the switch to the site in Doral was to remove the plant from a place where IH engineers could supervise it closely. Under these circumstances if the plant was installed in one configuration that doesn’t mean it stayed in that configuration during operation. .

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Well that is just another “What If” argument that no one can defend against.

        What I can tell you is as the real data and images are revealed, instead of supporting IH, they support Rossi.

        I suggest that process will continue.

  • LarryJ

    Don’t forget that IH built the 1MW test reactor including the core under Rossi’s supervision and they had engineers on site for the entire 1 year test run. That means they know very well how to build an ecat capable of cop 50. IH have also filed a patent for the ecat claiming a share in the IP so they can argue that they are not infringing on Leonardo’s IP. You refer to the ecat as obsolete but at a likely cop of 50 most industrial customers will be quite happy with IH’s offering even if it is too clunky to power your toaster.

    I think right now that IH are doing the same as Rossi. They are selling prototypes under nda and deciding on a final design to mass produce. In the end there will be 2 major suppliers of ecat reactors and the resulting competition will benefit us all. It appears similar to the patent fight between Apple and Samsung where Samsung borrowed heavily from Apple’s smartphone IP. That patent fight ran 7 years and we all benefited. The Leonardo/IH patent war will run for many years as well and we will all benefit.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Rossi cannot get out of the way of his own success, he does not want to mass produce a product that will be obsolete six months after it is introduced. The problem is he cannot predict when his “advanced” product will be ready.

      • Omega Z

        Bernie, there will be multiple product types. Each will have it’s own economic advantage.

        • Engineer48

          Hi OmegaZ,

          Yes I agree with you.
          .

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Omega, You might be right, but just yesterday Rossi said he wants to incorporate his current research into the district heating e-cat.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Or, they are deliberately trying to delay the implementation of LENR

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    More secret batteries under the floor and trick plugs, come on get serious.

  • Engineer48

    Guys,

    Is there anybody that has a copy the JMP electricity account?

    I believe there may be very valuable data to mine out of that image.
    .

    • Ged

      So far all I know of is http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/24/mats-lewan-receives-an-electric-bill-for-1mw-test-customer/ . I don’t think we’ve seen a picture, but Mats would have it.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Ged,

        We need someone who downloaded that image to share it as I believe there are data to mine.
        .

    • wpj

      Mats has a copy of the first bill, but took it down from his site rapidly as it was “in confidence”. Apparantly had COP 24 hand written on it.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Wpj,

        Yes I understand that but surely someone did a download?
        .

        • wpj

          Not that we know of, sadly………………………..

          Maybe Mats could give you some info in confidence?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Wpj,

            Need the info in the public arena as I believe there is very significant gold to mine.
            .

  • Omega Z

    Unless you have money on the line, Rossi doesn’t owe you or anyone a demonstration. Beyond that, Rossi could perform the perfect demo and people would still have issues. Rossi was involved if nothing else. They need an independent 3rd party test. Should a perfect independent 3rd party test be performed, then the claim would be they were tainted by Rossi when he instructed them on how to do the test..

    Seriously Andy. The other day you were pumping up your educational background and then you come up with this.

  • Bruce__H

    There is something I don’t understand about the photos at the top of the thread. Where are they supposed to be from? Are we looking inside of the shipping container in the Doral facility? I thought that all other photos of the equipment in that shipping container showed the ecat units on the outside walls — not in the centre as here..

    • Ged

      The container is the long variety, and you can even see the seam on the ground in the lowest picture between the two “halves”. The other pictures we have of the techs working on the side walls of E-cats is from one end, and you can see this centered rack, which blocks the view of the container doors of the opposite end. It’s all the same place. If you look carefully at the bottom picture, you can see the end of one of the side wall E-cat racks.

      This center rack is the Tigers (easiest to see that from the other view), and the side wall racks are the backups.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Ged,

        Yup the 2 1MW reactors were arranged like this.
        .

        • Engineer48

          main steam pipe is seen here.

          Note the size and that it exits stage Right toward the North wall of the warehouse at the middle of the 40ft dual reactor container with the 51 x 20kW BlueCats reactors at the West end and the 4 x Tiger 250kW reactors at the East end.

      • Bruce__H

        So the 36-pump end is the end with the reactors that were meant to carry the main heating load during the operation of the Doral plant?

        What end do the large pipes emerge from (the ones that are supposed to carry steam across to the customer)?

  • Engineer48

    Hi My2c

    Pardon but the 1MW test on 28 Oct 2011 had 4 pumps that serviced all the reactors, with no individual reactor topping up pumps.

    But no there are no pictures of the main pumps but there are pictures of the individual BlueCat pumps and the 6 x Tiger topping up pumps.

    Neither of which could supply the total require flow but could supply a flow that was well above COP = 1 flow.

    Here are the 20kW BlueCat topping up pump and reactor water level sensor images.

    If you wish I can supply the appropriate 250kW Tiger reactor images.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Abd,

    Fail as the 2 x 1MW reactors were arranged like this.
    .

  • Engineer48

    Hi Gregory,

    The flow numbers you can see are not measured flow numbers but are the target flow values programmed into the pumps. Plus the pumps have 3 coloured leds to indicate the state of the pump being:

    Green: everything is OK and the programmed flow is being achieved.

    Yellow: there may be a problem and please see this display.

    Red: Houston we have a problem.

    As you can see all the pumps are showing Green status.

  • Ged

    No, the central arrangement is part of the same plant. Take a look http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54e38c6ce4b0b6d75a4175a7/54e3ca09e4b0af154d1539a3/54e3ca39e4b015ce3b5f8201/1424215217471/ecat+MW1-USA+Andrea+checking.jpg?format=500w . You can see the side arrangement from this view.

    Meanwhile, take a look: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54e38c6ce4b0b6d75a4175a7/54e3ca09e4b0af154d1539a3/54e3ca33e4b015ce3b5f81b7/1424215065920/ecat+MW1-USA+team+at+working.jpg?format=500w . You can see the central arrangement from this view (blocking view of the container doors).

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Yes, this “obscure group of venture capitalists” are spending millions on the best law firm and the best propaganda company in the world. Do you think these millions are coming from this small “obscure group of venture capitalists”. Roseland, you are simply naive, how old are you?

  • Ged

    The photos show it. The one from the central view with Rossi shows the steam pipe does not exit to the left in the image Engineer posted above, and instead bends away and runs along the side being fed by the small “perimeter” reactors (the flow is from those reactors, and then bending into the perpendicular steam pipe). Meanwhile, the arrow on the pipe is pointing to the right in the image posted above. So, given the pipes exit the container as we see in the outside view (not obstructing the doors, so coming out the side), and the pipe does not exit to the left of the view above, it must be exiting to the right of the view above in line with the marked direction of flow (which is also the correct height for the external view).

    So, not a guess, as I am able to reach the same conclusion with the photo evidence.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Roselands,

    Do you understand what billions of $$s of stranded assets do to a public energy company’s share price?
    .

    • roseland67

      48?

      Uhm, yeah,

      Read my posts on Discuss re: automotive internal combustion engines, battery powered cars,
      autonomous driving,
      (what do you think the Teemsters think about this).
      Talk about stranded assets, mercy.
      (Which, by the way, anyone anywhere can see everyday)
      and decentralized power distribution.

      LENR is just not ready otherwise you WOULD see Senators and Congressmen writing laws about why it can’t be done.
      IH, is a fly on an elephants rear in the world of political graft and corruption.
      Not one single person on this board ever even heard of them before Rossi got involved.
      Just ain’t gonna happen the way you suggest.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Roselands.

        If and I say if I can get the necessary standards and other safety certifications, which I believe can do, my E48 Black Box Lenr reactor will be made available to system integrators.
        .

  • Ged
  • Ged

    Why single him out? Should this not be the case for everyone? I’ve had to push back on a dearth of baseless statements for which no facts corroborrate, and it really gets annoying after awhile.

  • LarryJ

    Rossi stated recently that during the 1 year test he took the night shift and IH managed the plant during the day. I tried to find the reference but unfortunately RossiLiveCat.com has removed the link that allows a download of the entire comment history and only the last couple of weeks are now available. JONP is very difficult to search. Rossi has also made other comments that IH monitored the plant continuously. Regrets that I can’t search for them.

  • How are you calculating the Coefficient of Performance (COP) without stating the output and return Temperatures? What temperature was the the output set at? What was the return temperature? What type of heat exchanger? Once you know the flow rate of the water (or Propylene Glycole?) and the amount of electricity being used, calculating the COP can be accomplished. COP = Power Output/ Power Input.

    • Ged

      Temp out for the plant is reported by IH as averaging over 9 months at 102.8 C as water steam. Temp in was averaging around 68.7 C water. We don’t know any numbers for the customer side, and the heat exchangers have not been photo shared with us by anyone yet. Power consumption for the time was not reported by IH, but from the power bill Mats got his hands on awhile ago it was around 20 kWh/h. Unknown if that is a typical number or not as it is only one data point, so don’t read too much into it.

  • Guru Khalsa

    Apparently i am not the only one whom likes a little drama in the story.

    Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax to LENR G 15 days ago:

    ‘Penon, seeing the counterclaim: “I’m outa here.”

    Fabiani “Me too!”

    Johnson:”Shit! Andrea, you told me this would be fine”

    Rossi:”I never said that. You lie.”‘

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Roseland, You are calling Jones Day “rummy’s”? “Ranked among the world’s most integrated law firms and best in client service”. I bet their bill does not reflect your disparaging remarks.

  • LarryJ

    IH built the 1 year test reactor and it’s core so I have assumed they would have other engineering resources besides Fabiani. How about the one whose name appears on IH’S patent application for the ecat. IH/Cherokee would surely have access to trusted engineering resources and we know they supplied support for the 1 year test.

    My original point was that IH are fully capable and have the resources to build 1MW ecat reactors and like Rossi they are probably doing so now. At this point they need to hustle and grab as much market share as they can. The patent war will run for years and will have no effect on industrialization of the ecat by Leonardo and IH.

  • Steve Swatman

    Bruce, bruce, bruce, he has told you many times that he is contact with Mr Rossi and leonardo on a business basis, that he worked in the field and he appears to offer evidence for every deduction,reasoning and even guesswork.

    You either accept him for what he appears to be or you dont.

    if you require such distinctions, you would then require proof and you would then proof of the proof.

  • Steve Swatman

    It would seem that important distinction is all yours, maybe if you pointed to specifics Engineer48 might give you personally some more details, at least that would that you giving his efforts the attention they deserve rather than than just throwing blankets statements and complaining about your comments not appearing. You know, because Engineer48 really seems to be putting in a awful lot of effort, compared to you or I.

    And I for one really appreciate his work, and demand nothing from him for his efforts.

    • TomR

      Well said Steve Swatman, if Bruce_H is not a troll he might be a lot happier if he frequented a different website.

      • Steve Swatman

        I consider some commentors to be like the people who bring their uncontrolled kids to the theater and eat chips from a noisy bag, talk all the way through the show and then complain because no one explained the story to them.

  • LarryJ

    IH’s contention that the plant was moved to avoid supervision is just a contention. Rossi contends it was moved because after 1 year IH failed to get operating permits which sounds a lot more real world to me. Rossi also contends that IH offered him cash to halt the test early, which if true, shows a deliberate effort by IH to put things on the back burner.

    IH’s claim of no excess power is also a hotly debated contention although your strong statement on that point implies no doubt and that your mind is already made up.

    Whether or not Fabiani was the only IH resource on site I don’t know. At this point you can believe Rossi or you can believe IH. Time will tell but someone here once quipped.

    The lineup of experts Rossi fooled has become embarrassingly long.

    That would appear to be not a contention.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Roseland, you seem to always be hedging your bet, get off the fence and read what E47 and friends are saying about Rossi tech on this site. And, if you cannot make up you mind, just be quiet and listen, we understand if you just can’t make up your mind, so please do not waste our time.

    • roseland67

      Bernie,
      Have not made any bets, not hedging anything, there is simply NOT enough valid, replicated data to make an informed decision.

      When new data becomes available, I will reassess.