LENR in Electric Arc-Plasma? Strike an Underwater Arc and CoP up to 8

The following post has been submitted by Paul Dodgshun

Strike an Underwater Arc and CoP up to 8:


Title of paper: “Possibility of LENR Occurring in Electric Arc-Plasma: Preliminary Investigation of Anomalous Heat Generation during Underwater Arcing using Carbon Electrodes” presented at the International Conference on Inter Disciplinary Research in Engineering and Technology in New Delhi, Feb 2016

Authors: Mragank Sharma , Kriti Rastogi , M Faisal Jamal Khan , Aishwarya Bajpai from the Department of Mechanical & Automation Engineering, Amity School of Engineering & Technology, Amity University (India)

From the paper’s abstract:

Energy balance calculations, indicate a marginal excess energy of up to 50 % with MS electrodes while with carbon electrodes output to input energy ratios are found to be as high as a factor of eight indicating excess heat up to 700%.We think that the anomalous excess energy could be due to some type of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR) but the nature of these reactions have not been studied by us so far.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Sounds familiar, and yet this serendipitous discovery is a far more elegant solution than has been produced by years of more “Brilliant” efforts.

    Maybe black light is not very bright after all.

    • Mills seems to have a habit of over-complicating everything. I suppose that a couple of electrodes dangling in a cup of water might not attract the millions of investment dollars he burns through.

  • Tony

    Carbon electrodes produce more heat because they are breaking down as the arc is maintained. The electrodes are consumables as in with carbon arc lamps so they are essentially being used as fuel.

    • Nixter

      Not only that, I think an electric arc is hot enough to qualify as hot fusion or fission.

      • Zephir

        It still doesn’t explain why mild steel electrodes don’t work (so well). And electric arc is by many orders cooler than every tokamak/stellarator plasma.

        • Including lithium or potassium in future experiments is an excellent suggestion IMO.

          MFMP – any chance of picking this one up? It looks like pretty low-hanging fruit…

      • Nowhere near I’m afraid. The hottest temperature recorded in an electric arc is around 19,400 °C, while initiation of fusion needs temperatures in the millions of °C, e.g., H-He: 13,000,000 °C, C-O/Ne/Mg/Na: 500,000,000 °C – three orders of magnitude higher.

        There are no available unstable nucleides, unless any are created by fusion themselves, so if the measurements are correct this has to be a form of LENR.

        • Bob Greenyer

          There is a whole host of effects in the arc

          Electrostatic and magnetic field
          cavitation and collapse
          high local electron density at electrode tips

          If one can expect neutrons from lightening – you can also expect something outside of nothing to be going on if the discharge is sufficient.

          • GiveADogABone

            With a DC underwater arc one can postulate H-, D-, O- and e- at one electrode and H+, D+, O+ and even e+ at the other. It seems to me that the charge each particle carries says something about the ability of the particle to reach the nucleus of the electrode atoms.

            I took a look at magnetohydrodynamics and it seems there are eight state equations. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the arc.

        • Nixter

          Even at absolute zero there is a small probability for two nuclei to fuse due to quantum tunneling, but the rate for this is incredibly low. You can do low-temperature fusion, you just can’t do it efficiently enough to get energy out of it. A tabletop fusor (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusor) uses an electric field to accelerate ions. Because the ions aren’t in thermal distribution, it doesn’t make sense to say they are at a high temperature.

    • 8 times as much? I would be interested in your suggestions for a chemical pathway involving small quantities of carbon that could be yielding that amount of energy.

    • Bob Greenyer

      The presumption here is that the formation of CO2 results in a net gain – but since the Carbon is under water, the Oxygen needs to be first dissociated from H2O by the arc – do the math and you will understand the energy balance here.

  • Dave Lawton
  • Curbina

    This is an age old debate, and if you want to read someone that has been fiddling with the idea for a couple of decades look for Dr. Ruggero Santilli’s “Plasma Arc Reformer”. It claimed a more conservative COP of 4 but said that it could be much more but he was under DoD restrictions for doing so.

  • Zephir
  • GiveADogABone

    How many replications in the last five and a half years?
    How many replications by the end of the month?
    All you need is a welding set and a metal bucket(plastic melts at 100C). The trick is that when the water gets to boiling point you keep going and build an industrial boiler, proving that LENR is of real use with a CoP well above 1.

    by Mahadeva Srinivasan George Miley and Edmund Storms
    Preprint of review article distributed to participants of ICCF 16 Conference held in Chennai during Feb 2011
    13. Carbon Arc Experiments
    The authors have recorded that in general over heating of the water was indeed a problem requiring them to periodically stop the arcing in order to allow the water to cool down and thereby avoid reaching near boiling temperatures.
    [Stopping was a serious error of judgment IMHO.]

    • GiveADogABone

      The GADAB Mk1 reactor.
      It lacks a few refinements but deep in the internals the plasma arc has formed under water.
      Car jump leads are not up to the job (they overheat), so an upgrade is required.

      The GADAB Mk2 is on order and should arrive next week.
      That will be an arc welding set driving twin carbon electrodes.
      That should be capable of running continuously at about 15amps.
      Instrumentation is somewhat sparse.
      An AC cumulative and instantaneous power meter and a 1litre bottle of makeup water.

      • Curbina

        Congratulations!!! Look at the “bingofuel” replication of Jean Louis Nadine for ideas about the reaction chamber in Low Cost, off the shelf parts.

        • GiveADogABone

          The more I look at LENR, the more I think that it is just a branch of plasma physics. That begs the question, ‘Where in the Rossi Effect is the plasma?’. My answer would be in the microcavities, as Rossi calls them. For me, the ‘microcavities’ are highly pressurised ‘penny shaped cracks’; that is the fracture mechanics term.

      • GiveADogABone

        GADAB Mk2 in operation.

        Electrical power to the welder is at about 1kw and the water temperature is at about ambient. The arc is clearly much more powerful that in the Mk1.

    • GiveADogABone

      Texas A&M University,

      Received July 23, 1993
      Accepted for Publication March 23, 1994

      When dissolved O2, was replaced by N2 in the solution, no iron was formed. Hence, the mechanism
      2(6C)12 + 2(8018) -> (26FeS6) + 2(He4)
      was suggested as the origin of the iron. The increase in tem­perature of the solution was consistent with expectation based on this reaction.
      [‘increase in tem­perature’ noted.]

      The current, used to initiate the arc, was 20 to 25A in the initial experiments but was later lowered to 15A. The voltage during the arcing was lOV.
      [Interesting data: 15A at 10V after arc starting. 15A is my target continuous current for the GADAB Mk2 reactor arc.]

      Also, the arc was kept running for only 20 to 30 min at a time with a break of 15 to 20 min in between to avoid excessive heating.
      [By which means things were left for 22 years and another opportunity for a great invention missed IMHO.]

  • Curbina

    Yes, however his work was more sophisticated as he passed the arc through a water mist and obtained excess energy in the form of a highly energetic explosion. He also provided an entirely non nuclear explanation To the observed phenomena, based on water molecular dissociation. In 2015 a blogger reported successful replication in a laboratory under a small research grant, obtained COP up To 6.

  • GiveADogABone

    Production of Metals from Non-Metallic Graphite
    Edward Esko

    Element Composition Sample (ppm*) by concentration
    Silicon 10,500
    Aluminum 7800
    Iron 4700
    Copper 4200
    Magnesium 1800
    Potassium 1000
    Sulfur 580
    Titanium 440

    Possible Low Energy Nuclear Reactions in Treated Graphite*
    Product Even Z Number Pairs
    Silicon 6C12 +8O16 = 14Si28 : 3+4=7
    Iron 2*14Si28 = 28Fe56 : 7+7=14
    Magnesium 2*6C12 = 12Mg24 : 3+3=6
    Sulfur 2*8O16? = 16S32 : 4+4=8
    Titanium 14Si28 + 8O16 = 22Ti44 : 7+4=11
    The above list is all x*(2He4).

    Product Odd Z Number Pairs
    Aluminum 6C12 + 7N15 = 13Al27
    Copper ? = 29Cu
    Potassium 12Mg26 + 7N14 = 19K39
    *Please note that the gases involved in these reactions,
    oxygen (O) and nitrogen (N), are from the atmosphere.

    Concentrate on 2He4 integer number elements and isotopes for underwater arc reactor operation that excludes Nitrogen.
    1 Helium 2He4 4.00260325415

    Start fusion chain from Carbon and/or Oxygen
    3 Carbon 6C12 12 exactly
    4 Oxygen 8O16 15.99491461956

    Not available from C+O fusion
    5 Neon 10Ne20 19.9924401754

    Fusion product from C+C
    6 Magnesium 12Mg24 23.985041700 + 13.9337Mev

    Fusion product of C+O
    7 Silicon 14SI28 27.9769265325 + 16.7559Mev

    Fusion product of O+O
    8 Sulphur 16S32 31.97207100 + 16.5418Mev

    Available from C+Mg (3+6)
    9 Argon 18Ar36 35.967545106

    Available from C+Si (3+7) or O+Mg
    10 Calcium 20Ca40 39.96259098 + 30.1095Mev observationally stable

    Available from O+Si (4+7) or C+S (3+8)
    11 Titanium 22Ti44 43.9596901 unstable
    11 Titanium 22Ti46 45.9526316 stable

    Available from Mg+Mg (6+6)
    12 Chromium 24Cr48 47.954032 unstable
    12 Chromium 24Cr50 49.9460442 stable

    Available from Mg+Si (6+7)
    13 Iron 26Fe52 51.948114 + 43.5948 unstable
    13 Iron 26Fe54 53.9396105 observationally stable

    Available from Si+Si (7+7)
    14 Nickel 28Ni56 55.942132 unstable
    14 Nickel 28Ni58 57.9353429 observationally stable

    All reactions reduced to two particle interactions.
    The metals Ti, Cr, Fe and Ni require two extra neutrons for nuclear stability.

    This table seems to imply that the underwater arc is a C and/or O fusion reaction that continues to all its daughter products. The question that arises is, ‘Would a dissolved Carbonate salt fuel the arc reaction that uses C+O?’.

  • GiveADogABone

    The welder is a commercial product that is rated at 80amps continuous DC. Driving twin carbon electrodes the results so far have been sufficient to heat the tank up so that you cannot keep your hand on it. The arc is much more powerful than the battery driven affair and the welder is capable of running continuously at a mains power level of about 1kw.

    The problem that I now face is that the water is starting to boil and it forms a buoyancy current through the arc that extinguishes the arc. I can see why alternative designs are restricted to just touching the surface of the water with the electrode. e.g.
    This however requires a 300volt power supply.

    I am looking for ways to protect the arc from these currents. Clearly the generated steam needs to be allowed to rise. The next attempt is likely to be using sand with the rod tips just below the surface of the sand. I am thinking that a cone-shaped depression will form where sand is lifted up by the buoyancy current, is returned outside, rolls down the slope and again surrounds the arc.

    This is an engineering exercise, rather than science, and I would be quite happy if I could fit a pumped hot water loop with water at say 80C leaving the top of the tank and return water at say 50C. Indeed this recirculation may well quell the buoyancy current that has stopped progress. If it ran at a CoP of (big IF) 4 this would be enough to drive a domestic central heating system more cheaply than gas. The idea of driving my central heating system with a 1kw welder rather appeals.

    is also of interest.