Rossi: Litigation to Last ‘at Least One Year’

If anyone is hoping for a speedy conclusion to the Rossi v. Darden et al court proceedings, Andrea Rossi doesn’t share that expectation. On the Journal of Nuclear Physics today he was asked how long he though the litigation would last, and his response was “at least one year”.

The proceedings have become more complex since Industrial Heat has introduced counter-claims in the case, which in some ways turns this case into two trials at the same time. Also, there are multiple defendants/counter-claimees on both sides of the case, which adds another element of complexity.

The most recent activity in the case has surrounded the counter-claims that Industrial Heat, et al have brought against Leonardo Corp. and affiliated third parties (Johnson, Penon, Fabiani, USQL, and Bass). Rossi’s team has responded to the counter-claims, moving to dismiss them, and Industrial Heat has responded to the motion stating why they should stand. Some of the third parties have also moved that the counter-complaints against them specifically should be dismissed. There are a growing number of attorneys involved now, as third parties are now represented by their own counsel. This could end up being a very expensive trial, and Rossi’s prediction of ‘at least one year’ might be on the conservative side.

So far, there has been little new evidence introduced by either party; most of the discussion so far has been over legal points which can be rather dry for the average reader (like me), and I really don’t have the ability or desire to get into a detailed analysis of the proceedings so far.

For people wanting to study the details of the case, there is a folder on Google Drive which is open to the world which contains all the documents filed so far here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BzKtdce19-wyb1RxOTF6c2NtZkk

  • Barbierir

    It seems both parties have jointly filled a protective order that means everything they consider confidential will remain inaccessible to the public. That could probably include the customer identity or Penon’s report.

    • Bob

      The customer’s identity is known. It is JM Products, whose president is Mr. Johnson, Rossi’s real estate attorney.
      .
      There is no other customer and Rossi does not state there is. IH has stated that in their claim that the 1 year test was a misrepresentation. That is was presented to them as the “selling of heat” to a unrelated customer for approximately $30,000 per month and a period to observe the plant in production. Rossi is claiming the 1 year test was also the GPT which was required to pass for the $89 million payment.
      .
      What is not known is if a UK based company is involved at all. I.E. Rossi has stated that
      JM Products was setup to test the eCat plant “For” this unknown company. However, there has been no legal documents nor submittals that indicate there is any by Rossi. Nothing in the contracts posted, state the involvement of any other company, therefore, no other company is relevant to the legal proceedings. It might be relevant to if Rossi is telling the truth or not.
      .
      I have read many posts from various people and forums. As usual, there are two distinct camps for the most part. The “Rossi camp” and the “IH camp” for lack of better term. It is interesting how far apart the two are. Both sides seem to think the proceedings so far are a slam dunk for their “side”. It is clear that Rossi is “winning” or it is clearly that IH is. There are some really well written, well reviewed posts on the legal aspects of the case.
      .
      I personally think this case will never reach a jury trial. I believe it will end in one of two ways and probably around the end of the year:
      .
      1) The case is settled out of court, with strict NDA’s in place as with everything related to Rossi. We will only hear of rumors and each side will remain unchanged in their support for their “team”. Rossi will continue posting about improvements, certifications and robotic factories. Whether we ever see any realization of these, I am doubtful.
      .
      2) The case will be dismissed by the judge. We have to remember that the basis of this case is whether the 1 year test was the GPT. It is a legal contract issue and it could very well be dismissed based upon legal grounds. If this happens, what will be interesting is if IH continues with their counter claims.
      .
      I do not see this trial going much past the end of the year, unless IH pursues their counter claims, which them could extend this past a year. Again, my bet is an out of court settlement that is wrapped in NDA’s. While I think this is what will happen, I really hope it does not. I would like to see everything come out in the clear, so we know once and for all what is really happening with the eCat.

      • Barbierir

        well I know the customer is JM Products, I should have written “Who was JM Products a proxy for?” that is the part that will probably remain hidden from public view.

      • Veblin

        Rossi sets up a one year test that he considers to be the GPT.
        IH hires Penon, Fabiani and West for this test just like it is the GPT.
        Rossi posts what public information that he can staying within the NDA, about this test-GPT for an entire year.
        E-catworld and every other site and person following LENR think this is the GPT.
        IH knows this. We know they know this.
        If they don’t consider this test to be the GPT they should contacting anyone and everyone stating their position from the start. Not waiting until the end to say sorry, no good.

        • SG

          Either that, or they just don’t care, and are jerks.

      • cashmemorz

        For the casual observer what may be most important is if the E-Cat goes to market and how many are sold and used to the satisfaction of all buyers that it works as claimed. Anything else is secondary although interesting.

  • Barbierir

    It seems both parties have jointly filled a protective order that means everything they consider confidential will remain inaccessible to the public. That could probably include the customer identity or Penon’s report.

    • Bob

      The customer’s identity is known. It is JM Products, whose president is Mr. Johnson, Rossi’s real estate attorney.
      .
      There is no other customer and Rossi does not state there is. IH has stated that in their claim that the 1 year test was a misrepresentation. That is was presented to them as the “selling of heat” to a unrelated customer for approximately $30,000 per month and a period to observe the plant in production. Rossi is claiming the 1 year test was also the GPT which was required to pass for the $89 million payment.
      .
      What is not known is if a UK based company is involved at all. I.E. Rossi has stated that
      JM Products was setup to test the eCat plant “For” this unknown company. However, there has been no legal documents nor submittals that indicate there is any by Rossi. Nothing in the contracts posted, state the involvement of any other company, therefore, no other company is relevant to the legal proceedings. It might be relevant to if Rossi is telling the truth or not.
      .
      I have read many posts from various people and forums. As usual, there are two distinct camps for the most part. The “Rossi camp” and the “IH camp” for lack of better term. It is interesting how far apart the two are. Both sides seem to think the proceedings so far are a slam dunk for their “side”. It is clear that Rossi is “winning” or it is clearly that IH is. There are some really well written, well reviewed posts on the legal aspects of the case.
      .
      I personally think this case will never reach a jury trial. I believe it will end in one of two ways and probably around the end of the year:
      .
      1) The case is settled out of court, with strict NDA’s in place as with everything related to Rossi. We will only hear of rumors and each side will remain unchanged in their support for their “team”. Rossi will continue posting about improvements, certifications and robotic factories. Whether we ever see any realization of these, I am doubtful.
      .
      2) The case will be dismissed by the judge. We have to remember that the basis of this case is whether the 1 year test was the GPT. It is a legal contract issue and it could very well be dismissed based upon legal grounds. If this happens, what will be interesting is if IH continues with their counter claims.
      .
      I do not see this trial going much past the end of the year, unless IH pursues their counter claims, which them could extend this past a year. Again, my bet is an out of court settlement that is wrapped in NDA’s. While I think this is what will happen, I really hope it does not. I would like to see everything come out in the clear, so we know once and for all what is really happening with the eCat.

      • Barbierir

        well I know the customer is JM Products, I should have written “Who was JM Products a proxy for?” that is the part that will probably remain hidden from public view.

      • Veblin

        Rossi sets up a one year test that he considers to be the GPT.
        IH hires Penon, Fabiani and West for this test just like it is the GPT.
        Rossi posts what public information that he can staying within the NDA, about this GPT test for an entire year.
        E-catworld and every other site and person following LENR think this is the GPT.
        IH knows this. We know they know this.
        If they didn’t consider this test to be the GPT they should have been contacting anyone and everyone stating their position from the start. Not waiting until the end to say sorry, that was not the GPT. Their position on this point is just not believable.

        • SG

          Either that, or they just don’t care, and are jerks.

          • Bob

            You do not think Rossi was being a jerk on how he bragged about deceiving Hydrofusion during their test setup? The actual memo from Rossi claiming the deception a “masterpiece” has been submitted.

            .
            Reading the court documents is boring and full of legalese, but it is revealing!

          • Omega Z

            And yet, Rossi and Hydrofusion are still in business together. I believe Rossi had concerns about Tom Darden’s integrity and left some bridges unburned.

        • Bob

          Please read the court documents. The contract on the Doral plant was written by Rossi, states it is for the sale of power and does not mention anything about a test.
          .
          Yes, IH was paying part of the salary for Fabiani and Penon, but they are stating that it was to obtain further measurements of how the test was ran.
          .
          IH stated they had the test setup in NC, but Rossi refused. Would YOU pay $89 million to someone not willing to test in your facility? Who would not let your engineer into the plant to confirm how it worked? Who would not let you see what the process was even connected to and turns out to be a fake customer / production line? I think if the $89 million was yours, you would be a bit more skeptical as well.
          .
          Also, IH states they DID tell people that they were not happy with what was going on. Do you think they needed to post to you on ECW to convey that? IH is like all professional companies… they do not post their private business dealings on some little known forum. We simply do not know anything other than what has been submitted to the legal dockets of the court case. “Rossi says” may carry weight for some, but in court, his postings on JONP will be meaningless. It will be what is in the letter of the law.
          .
          We will have to wait and see!

          • Omega Z

            In the “Amendment” to the original document, this was the 1 year GPT test. Tom Darden says it’s not vaild because 1 party “Ampenergo” didn’t sign it.

            Here’s the clincher. To Darden did sign it. Thus he did consider this to be the 1 year GPT.

            Also for this test, Tom Darden did sign off on Penon being the refereree and did pay Half of the fee for service rendered. As to Fabiani, he has been fully on Industrial heat/Tom Dardens payroll since 2013 and paid by Tome Darden 100% independent from Rossi.

      • cashmemorz

        For the casual observer what may be most important is if the E-Cat goes to market and how many are sold and used to the satisfaction of all buyers that it works as claimed. Anything else is secondary although interesting.

  • Jerry Soloman

    Rossi has no intention of settling this for what IH thinks they can get away with, Rossi holds the patents and the critical IP.

    • roseland67

      Jerry,

      “IF”, the Ecat works as stated, yes,
      If it doesn’t, what do you think happens?

      • Jerry Soloman

        Roseland, IH would not have paid 10 million already and then tell Rosi he could keep the money. ECAT works and the Quark-X works better.

        IH will find out the Miami courts are not the good ole boy networks of North Carolina.

        • roseland67

          I guess if it works as stated,
          Then AR will change the world,
          but I ain’t holding my breath

  • Ged

    At least the trial is still scheduled for this coming June, and hasn’t been pushed back yet. It seems everything is on time, so far, other than the week delay caused by the hurricane for one scheduled hearing. Hopefully that’ll be as long as things go!

  • Ged

    At least the trial is still scheduled for this coming June, and hasn’t been pushed back yet. It seems everything is on time, so far, other than the week delay caused by the hurricane for one scheduled hearing. Hopefully that’ll be as long as things go!

  • sam

    A.R. Tom come on down and check
    out the Quark X.
    T.D. The Quark X is functioning like
    you said Andrea.Here is the $89 million
    and let’s get this baby to market.
    A.R. No Tom just give me the money
    needed to get her to market and the
    rest when we know we have happy
    customers.
    TD OK Andrea your the Boss but I will
    pay all our legal fees so we can kiss
    the legal B.S. good by.
    A.R. Let’s shake on that partner.

    • Ged

      Too easy 😉

      • sam

        It may be to easy for the Legal Beagles.
        But if you go back a few decades it is that type of
        Business dealings that built
        the U.S.

        • Omega Z

          TD didn’t get involved to help Rossi bring LENR to market. He got involved to delay it for the next 10 to 15 years. Everything they are involved in (LENR) has come to a crawl.

          Note Robert Godes (Brillouin Energy) has basically come to a complete stand still since TD got involved. Those who control the purse strings control everything….

          • sam

            If A.R. and R.G. believe that T.D. was delaying LENR could they not find ways around that.
            A.R. talks about another partner he is involved with.

          • sam

            Why would T.D. want to delay if there is a lot of money to be made if A.R.
            or R.G. Technology works.

          • cashmemorz

            It’s not a delay but time to test the total picture surrounding the E-Cat version of LENR. To the nth degree. This is, in my estimation, to satisfy the pickiest investor that might want to put money into the E-CAT. The court case is just one more aspect of the E-Cat where secondary, tertiary, etc. data to either support or destroy the E-Cat will come out. Without such in depth due diligence the most careful investor will hesitate to invest. And those extremely careful ones tend to have deep pockets and is how they continue to have deep pockets. Its all for the rich investors. Just watch how fast Rossi’s E-Cat takes off when the court case finishes. In a few more years.

          • sam

            Good analysis as usual Cashmemorz.
            But it makes me think of a
            Government Bureaucracy.
            So I think my dream is turning into a nightmare.

          • LilyLover

            Fractional lenders and credit creators may have shown Tom the photos of Jerry, Micky and Mini and asked him to get their desires acted out in the real world, while they sat in the high tower.
            Slaves build high towers.
            Free people build beautiful homes.

          • Omega Z

            T.D. and friends have zero intent to manufacture and market LENR themselves. These people don’t do real work. They make their money just by shuffling money around. The longer they can do this, the more money they make skimming a percentage off the top of all the outside investors such as the Woodford funds. Once manufacturing and sales begin, T.D. and friends start seeing diminishing returns.

          • as I’ve followed, Darden is not funding Brillouin.
            LENR-Invest dis it a little, as Carl Page.

            note alos that IH strategy seems to protect their IP with some NDA with researshers.

            At worst we will learn that LENR is commercial only when IH will present their prototype to call for a trillion$ venture funding IPO.

          • Omega Z

            As to Godes(Brillouin Energy). I don’t see any work around. Godes only owns/controls 5% of his IP. IH/TD and others own 95% of(Brillouin Energy). For all intents and purposes, they OWN Robert Godes.

            The Contract agreement with Industrial heat/Tom Darden requires Leonardo/Rossi to give them 1st option on any new license deals to manufacture/market in areas that they haven’t already been given in the agreement. Unfortunately for IH/TD, this 1st option does not apply to Leonardo/Rossi as they already hold ownership of the IP and this would not be a new license offering.

            You could look at this as a huge oversight on IH/TD’s part. Probably thinking Rossi is old and would not take this path. Fortunately for Leonardo/Rossi who is partnered with Hydrofusion, they can manufacture & market to their hearts desire. Even tho Rossi has rescinded IH/TD’s license, probably they would wait to sell product in there zones until the lawsuit is settled.

            Anyway, these licensed zones seldom work very well in this era of international corporations and where Government seldom recognize them concerning their own needs(Military). Even when they do work, they seldom last more then a couple years. Outside competition usually cause these arrangements to be abandoned in the name of survival.

    • Jimr

      Some one needs to shake you to wake you of your dream.

      • sam

        I know I am dreaming but I like
        my dream Jimr.

    • LilyLover

      Cybermen: Cybermen seek alliance with the Daleks.
      Daleks: Inferior … species … detected. … Application … denied. … Exterminate.
      Even the Daleks show complex understanding through simple and decisive actions.

      Rossi doesn’t need to breath the same air from the same room. Just for fun.

  • sam

    A.R. Tom come on down and check
    out the Quark X.
    T.D. The Quark X is functioning like
    you said Andrea.Here is the $89 million
    and let’s get this baby to market.
    A.R. No Tom just give me the money
    needed to get her to market and the
    rest when we know we have happy
    customers.
    TD OK Andrea your the Boss but I will
    pay all our legal fees so we can kiss
    the legal B.S. good by.
    A.R. Let’s shake on that partner.

    • Ged

      Too easy 😉

      • sam

        It may be to easy for the Legal Beagles.
        But if you go back a few decades it is that type of
        Business dealings that built
        the U.S.

        • Omega Z

          TD didn’t get involved to help Rossi bring LENR to market. He got involved to delay it for the next 10 to 15 years. Everything they are involved in (LENR) has come to a crawl.

          Note Robert Godes (Brillouin Energy) has basically come to a complete stand still since TD got involved. Those who control the purse strings control everything….

          • sam

            If A.R. and R.G. believe that T.D. was delaying LENR could they not find ways around that.
            A.R. talks about another partner he is involved with.

          • sam

            Why would T.D. want to delay if there is a lot of money to be made if A.R.
            or R.G. Technology works.

          • cashmemorz

            It’s not a delay but time to test the total picture surrounding the E-Cat version of LENR. To the nth degree. This is, in my estimation, to satisfy the pickiest investor that might want to put money into the E-CAT. The court case is just one more aspect of the E-Cat where secondary, tertiary, etc. data to either support or destroy the E-Cat will come out. Without such in depth due diligence the most careful investor will hesitate to invest. And those extremely careful ones tend to have deep pockets and is how they continue to have deep pockets. Its all for the rich investors. Just watch how fast Rossi’s E-Cat takes off when the court case finishes. In a few more years.

          • sam

            Good analysis as usual Cashmemorz.
            But it makes me think of a
            Government Bureaucracy.
            So I think my dream is turning into a nightmare.

          • LilyLover

            Fractional lenders and credit creators may have shown Tom the photos of Jerry, Micky and Mini and asked him to get their desires acted out in the real world, while they sat in the high tower.
            Slaves build high towers.
            Free people build beautiful homes.

          • Omega Z

            T.D. and friends have zero intent to manufacture and market LENR themselves. These people don’t do real work. They make their money just by shuffling money around. The longer they can do this, the more money they make skimming a percentage off the top of all the outside investors such as the Woodford funds. Once manufacturing and sales begin, T.D. and friends start seeing diminishing returns.

          • as I’ve followed, Darden is not funding Brillouin.
            LENR-Invest dis it a little, as Carl Page.

            note alos that IH strategy seems to protect their IP with some NDA with researshers.

            At worst we will learn that LENR is commercial only when IH will present their prototype to call for a trillion$ venture funding IPO.

          • roseland67

            Sam,

            They wouldn’t,
            It doesn’t

          • Omega Z

            As to Godes(Brillouin Energy). I don’t see any work around. Godes only owns/controls 5% of his IP. IH/TD and others own 95% of(Brillouin Energy). For all intents and purposes, they OWN Robert Godes.

            The Contract agreement with Industrial heat/Tom Darden requires Leonardo/Rossi to give them 1st option on any new license deals to manufacture/market in areas that they haven’t already been given in the agreement. Unfortunately for IH/TD, this 1st option does not apply to Leonardo/Rossi as they already hold ownership of the IP and this would not be a new license offering.

            You could look at this as a huge oversight on IH/TD’s part. Probably thinking Rossi is old and would not take this path. Fortunately for Leonardo/Rossi who is partnered with Hydrofusion, they can manufacture & market to their hearts desire. Even tho Rossi has rescinded IH/TD’s license, probably they would wait to sell product in there zones until the lawsuit is settled.

            Anyway, these licensed zones seldom work very well in this era of international corporations and where Government seldom recognize them concerning their own needs(Military). Even when they do work, they seldom last more then a couple years. Outside competition usually cause these arrangements to be abandoned in the name of survival.

    • Jimr

      Some one needs to shake you to wake you of your dream.

      • sam

        I know I am dreaming but I like
        my dream Jimr.

    • LilyLover

      Cybermen: Cybermen seek alliance with the Daleks.
      Daleks: Inferior … species … detected. … Application … denied. … Exterminate.
      Even the Daleks show complex understanding through simple and decisive actions.

      Rossi doesn’t need to breath the same air from the same room. Just for fun.

  • kenko1

    YaWn………rolls over…….goes back to sleep. Dreams of little Quarks with little yellow smiley faces attached dancing bedside.

  • kenko1

    YaWn………rolls over…….goes back to sleep. Dreams of little Quarks with little yellow smiley faces attached dancing bedside.

  • Omega Z

    In the “Amendment” to the original document, this was the 1 year GPT test. Tom Darden says it’s not vaild because 1 party “Ampenergo” didn’t sign it.

    Here’s the clincher. To Darden did sign it. Thus he did consider this to be the 1 year GPT.

    Also for this test, Tom Darden did sign off on Penon being the refereree and did pay Half of the fee for service rendered. As to Fabiani, he has been fully on Industrial heat/Tom Dardens payroll since 2013 and paid by Tome Darden 100% independent from Rossi.

  • Omega Z

    And yet, Rossi and Hydrofusion are still in business together. I believe Rossi had concerns about Tom Darden’s integrity and left some bridges unburned.

  • attaboy

    More excuses to stall release of the desperately needed e-cat to the world.

    • attaboy

      You can bet the corporations are behind this somehow.

      • attaboy

        led by Big Oil!

        • attaboy

          Its pretty disturbing to me that no one has seen fit to reply to my comments. Is it because I’m seen as being disturbed, maybe somewhat of a curmudgeon, or cynic? To me its clear there is a world order run by the powerful people with a lot of money. If someone, or something, comes along to disturb this order, these powerful people will take action to control or even crush this entity. But maybe I’m the crazy one and should take things a lot more lightly as you mostly seem to do.

        • attaboy

          What happened to the post I submitted??!!

  • roseland67

    Then on to the quark Z
    Delivery will be soon by robitized factories
    F8/F9

  • attaboy

    What happened to the post I submitted??!!