Report from Brilliant Light Power Industry Day Event (Tom Whipple) Update: Video and Slideshows Now Posted by BLP

UPDATE (Oct 29, 2016)

A video of the Brilliant Light Power SunCell reactor in action has been posted, along with slideshows and other documents from the recent Industry Day event. The video is below:

Slideshows and presentations from the Industry Day can be found at this link:

http://brilliantlightpower.com/demonstration-days/

The following post has been submitted by Tom Whipple.

I was up at BLP yesterday for their most recent demonstration and the unveiling of the new version of the SunCell. This time the event was slightly different in that it was called “Industry Day” and featured a range of speakers, not just Mills. BLP has formed outside advisory committees and is clearly planning to be ready to market SunCells by the end of 2017 or soon thereafter — if all goes well. Mills seems to have gotten by the electrode melting problem with a very elegant solution involving two charged streams of silver and now has prototypes running in his labs for long periods. They are shut off at night. As there are no moving parts, he sees no reliability problems. They have designed these things to run non-stop for 20 years.

Among the speakers were senior reps from the company that is making the photovoltaic dome to go around the black body radiator and from the group that will make the initial batch of prototypes that are to be sent out for testing in H2. The prototype company is also getting the required safety permits and approvals to market the SunCell. The company rep told me they have the capability to produce these by the thousands, but are too small to get into the millions as engineering, not manufacturing, is their business. The schedule calls for the first test of the SunCell with photo voltaic cells and electrical output in January. There will other iterations of additional cells later in the winter that will move the output higher as they add more sophisticated PV cells.

If past practice is followed, all this should be up on the web in a couple of days. The transparency of BLP is orders of magnitude above Rossi. BLP is keeping a few details of the silver/hydroxide mixture secret and say the exact mixture is very sensitive to making a good “sun”.

In the audience of about 80 were reps from companies interested in partnering with BLP to manufacture and market the device. BLP is clearly in the marketing stage and not just R&D which is nearly completed.

In sum, Mills seems to be making good progress. After seeing who was in the audience, etc etc. I have trouble believing that Mills and his verifiers, who were there and talked about their findings, are not telling the truth. it seems clear to me that we will have to rewrite the Quantum Mechanics text books someday — about the time Mills gets his Nobel for the the greatest advance in Physics since relativity.

Where all this puts Rossi and LENR is a good question. If the SunCell works as advertised, and is ready for market within the next 18 months he will have a major head start with a device that can produce lots of electricity.

There are too many aspects to all this to include here. It would take a book. For example, the SunCell does not seem to take more than 20 watts to run after it melts the silver which can stay melted for 20 years. If the cell is producing megawatts of power, the notion of a COP is simply silly. The ratio is hundreds of thousands to one.

All I can do for now is to suggest that you take a careful look at whatever gets posted about this on the BLP website. I hope this helps your thinking about where all this is going. I hate to say this, but electricity produced from water (extracted from the atmosphere) seems to be a better potential seller than a heat-producing QuarkX.

Tom Whipple
Arlington, VA

  • History says they always pull back and hunker down for some additional R&D, flush with new investment money, just before actual commercialization. For decades now.

    But I hope you’re right.

    • Bing78

      It feels different this time. He used to go quiet for a year or two at a time. We are now getting very regular updates and more companies are involved. These engineering/production processes often take longer than estimated, so I’m not holding my breath that the timeline will be met. But I think we will be seeing steady progress these next couple years. Exciting times!

  • History says they always pull back and hunker down for some additional R&D, flush with new investment money, just before actual commercialization. For decades now.

    But I hope you’re right.

    • Bing78

      It feels different this time. He used to go quiet for a year or two at a time. We are now getting very regular updates and more companies are involved. These engineering/production processes often take longer than estimated, so I’m not holding my breath that the timeline will be met. But I think we will be seeing steady progress these next couple years. Exciting times!

  • artefact

    Thank you for the report!

  • artefact

    Thank you for the report!

  • Dr. Mike

    It is good to hear that some of the engineering problems with the electrodes are bring resolved. Saying there shouldn’t be any reliability problems and demonstrating good reliability are two entirely different things. My guess is that both establishing reliability and developing the high intensity photovoltaic cells (having reasonably low cost, and high efficiency) will take much longer than is now being predicted, but hopefully won’t be too big of a factor in getting the initial systems to market.
    The 20W operating power seems to be really good. However, the claim for the megawatt output power is meaningless since continuous power is not output. Does anyone know what the output energy is for the current SunCell design? The maximum theoretical COP for this device needs to be calculated as: (output energy) / (input energy). Once the system is fitted with PV cells, and the power needed to cool the PV cells is added to the input power, then the COP can be calculated as: (PV cell output power) / (total system input power).
    Dr. Mike

  • Dr. Mike

    It is good to hear that some of the engineering problems with the electrodes are bring resolved. Saying there shouldn’t be any reliability problems and demonstrating good reliability are two entirely different things. My guess is that both establishing reliability and developing the high intensity photovoltaic cells (having reasonably low cost, and high efficiency) will take much longer than is now being predicted, but hopefully won’t be too big of a factor in getting the initial systems to market.
    The 20W operating power seems to be really good. However, the claim for the megawatt output power is meaningless since continuous power is not output. Does anyone know what the output energy is for the current SunCell design? The maximum theoretical COP for this device needs to be calculated as: (output energy) / (input energy). Once the system is fitted with PV cells, and the power needed to cool the PV cells is added to the input power, then the COP can be calculated as: (PV cell output power) / (total system input power).
    Dr. Mike

    • LookMoo

      When the Wright brothers made their first flight it was till 10 years from military use. Another 30 years from commercial use and about 60-80 years until it was in common global use by mankind (as a real alternative to buses and trains).

      • Job001

        Research and commercialization science and engineering is a fast process now because of all the learning, instrumentation, and super computer improvements that has occurred since 1903. It’s a different ballgame now.

        • Omega Z

          The faster we go, the less progress we make.

        • LookMoo

          For you and me yes..

          …..but for billions of people there is no clean drinking water and no fast commercialization of science and engineering and no learning and super computers. Nor is it any nano materials (unless they have one of the mobile/cell phones which even the poorest seems to have).

          Basically they are left in the stone-age.

      • akupaku

        That is all correct but hardly relevant today. We have quite different level of resources and capabilities today than a hundred years ago. Technical and scientific progress today is much faster so I would expect much less time being used to bring these new technologies to widespread use. The only reasons that can slow them down are human factors like politics, national security, conspiracy, greed, stupidity, etc.

        • LookMoo

          And the most important factor is poverty.. many does not have the $1.90 a DAY that UN says is poverty. If you say USD 20 a day you still can not afford much of what we in USA and EU (and G7) consider necessities.

          So while development tick-tack much faster now, for many people nothing is happening.

  • enantiomer2000

    Totally agree that the SunCell is a far more promising tech than the QuarkX. I have trouble believing that the QuarkX is anything other than an engineering oddity at this point. Maybe Rossi has found a way of catalyzing hydrogen to produce hydrinos but doesn’t understand the process yet?

    • Zephir

      I think, if you could see the QuarkX reactor on video, you would say the opposite. The people are behaving like silly animals, they just believe what they can see. And what they can see right now is the SunCell, not QuarkX. In addition, I think that both technologies are more close each other, than Rossi and Mills in particular would be willing to admit. But what is good is the mutual competition of these technologies. I don’t trust neither Rossi, neither Mills – without competition there will be always temptation to sell the whole project to military and to embargo it before publics completely.

  • I think both methods of energy production might be useful in space travel. LENR may be able to scale down lower than Mill’s Hydrino? Just guessing.

  • I think both methods of energy production might be useful in space travel. LENR may be able to scale down lower than Mill’s Hydrino? Just guessing.

  • LuFong

    Another report about Industry Day worth reading (posted by artefact on another thread):

    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SocietyforClassicalPhysics/conversations/messages/10444

    A lot of ‘ifs’ but it just occurred to me that 2017 is just around the corner…

    Thanks for posting this report.

  • Jas

    I’ve said this before here that it doesn’t matter who has the best and most efficient device or who gets their device out first. There are billions of people on this planet that want access to cheap energy. I don’t think one company is going to have a monopoly on that.

  • Jas

    I’ve said this before here that it doesn’t matter who has the best and most efficient device or who gets their device out first. There are billions of people on this planet that want access to cheap energy. I don’t think one company is going to have a monopoly on that.

  • Jas

    Hmm, another delay? Weren’t we told earlier in the year that BLP hoped for Q2 2017 for sales to start?

    • bfast

      Um, such is the nature of revolutionary research. You go around the next bend, and discover something unexpected. Great scott, the Quark-X doesn’t look anything like the machine Rossi showed of in 2011.

  • Jas

    Hmm, another delay? Weren’t we told earlier in the year that BLP hoped for Q2 2017 for sales to start?

    • bfast

      Um, such is the nature of revolutionary research. You go around the next bend, and discover something unexpected. Great scott, the Quark-X doesn’t look anything like the machine Rossi showed of in 2011.

  • Angry SQUIRREL!!

    Mills has a pattern of getting everyone excited for commercialization only to wreak our hopes when he announces delays so count me skeptical. IMO he’s still got a long ways to go, gotta root for him but i’m not jumping on the commercialization hype bandwagon just yet.

    • Michael W Wolf

      All scientists have that pattern. It is the nature of the beast.

    • I agree with that statement. Mills has been running his mouth for an awfully long time. Maybe he’ll pull it out, at some point, and it would be great if he did, but, at this point, I think that the best course of action is to believe it when we see it. (and I do NOT mean a demo – I mean a REAL product that REALLY is working and producing useful, REAL energy)

    • Job001

      Mills is deviating from his old fund raising pattern. His demos show increasingly sophisticated science, presentations, instrumentation, and equipment. He is a good research scientist, a fun bit eccentric, and even has a well developed but somewhat disputed theory.

      I say, “Give him a break, research always takes longer than we hope.”

  • bfast

    Thanks, Frank, for keeping up with brilliant light as well as e-cat. The success of either of these technologies will be revolutionary. There is LOTS of room for both to succeed. If, when the dust settles, these are truly unrelated technologies, I will be very surprised. Somehow they must both be working a different aspect of the same physics.

    Dr. Mills’ theories of physics, if correct, will truly rock the worlds of physics and astronomy. Think of it — no big bang, no quantum physics. What a system rocker. This is vastly more earth shattering than the discovery that there is a way around the coulomb barrier.

    • Michael W Wolf

      In defense of Mills, not all quantum physics. Just certain aspects, like the uncertainty principle.

      • Zephir

        I think, Mills doesn’t attack uncertainty principle, rather the existence of fundamental quantum state. Or even better to say, the energetic minimum of this state. I don’t think, that fractional quantum states in vacuum cannot exist – after all, we can observe them in solid state physics already (anyons, quantum Hall effect). But I just cannot imagine, how these states could remain stable in dynamic quantum vacuum, release the energy the more.

  • bfast

    Thanks, Frank, for keeping up with brilliant light as well as e-cat. The success of either of these technologies will be revolutionary. There is LOTS of room for both to succeed. If, when the dust settles, these are truly unrelated technologies, I will be very surprised. Somehow they must both be working a different aspect of the same physics.

    Dr. Mills’ theories of physics, if correct, will truly rock the worlds of physics and astronomy. Think of it — no big bang, no quantum physics. What a system rocker. This is vastly more earth shattering than the discovery that there is a way around the coulomb barrier.

    • Michael W Wolf

      In defense of Mills, not all quantum physics. Just certain aspects, like the uncertainty principle.

      • Zephir

        I think, Mills doesn’t attack uncertainty principle, rather the existence of fundamental quantum state. Or even better to say, the energetic minimum of this state. I don’t think, that fractional quantum states in vacuum cannot exist – after all, we can observe them in solid state physics already (anyons, quantum Hall effect). But I just cannot imagine, how these states could remain stable in dynamic quantum vacuum, release the energy the more.

        • Michael W Wolf

          I think he did. I guess I could be wrong, but I remember he saying something like nothing is uncertain in one of his presentations, mocking it.

          • Zephir

            It could apply to uncertainty in his results or whatever else kind of uncertainty.

  • Michael W Wolf

    OMG! Liquid electrodes solved the meltdown problem!. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBheBH9eio

    • Justin

      I’ll say it again before somebody beats me to it: This seems like a total ripoff from Ghostbusters!!!

      • Ophelia Rump

        Don’t cross the streams!

        There are batteries with liquid electrodes. They are a real thing.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Well, tech has always followed the imagination of hollywood. Stands to reason.

  • HiggsField

    Thanks for this very interesting first hand update. I’ve been an ardent believer in BLP since the early 2000’s. Nearly applied for a job their, wish I had now. I think Mill’s theory is right on the money, so a successful launch of a reliably working device will perhaps garner some attention in the Physics community. This thing could snowball quite quickly I think. As that guy in NZ said, here is either a total fraud or perhaps the greatest genius of our time.

    Billions of $s have been spent pursuing fusion power. I attended a lecture in the early 80’s in the UK, it was expected to be 15yrs away give or take. Hmm! A 20W powered Sun at a cost of about $100 million seems like a bargain and should get some media and government attention. I think Rossi has already become a red dwarf and is fast on his way of becoming a white dwarf.

    Personally I’m looking forward to the movie.

  • HiggsField

    Thanks for this very interesting first hand update. I’ve been an ardent believer in BLP since the early 2000’s. Nearly applied for a job their, wish I had now. I think Mill’s theory is right on the money, so a successful launch of a reliably working device will perhaps garner some attention in the Physics community. This thing could snowball quite quickly I think. As that guy in NZ said, here is either a total fraud or perhaps the greatest genius of our time.

    Billions of $s have been spent pursuing fusion power. I attended a lecture in the early 80’s in the UK, it was expected to be 15yrs away give or take. Hmm! A 20W powered Sun at a cost of about $100 million seems like a bargain and should get some media and government attention. I think Rossi has already become a red dwarf and is fast on his way of becoming a white dwarf.

    Personally I’m looking forward to the movie.

  • Zephir

    Whereas I don’t believe in hydrino stuff, I can see many common things of Mills experiments with so-called plasma electrolysis of water. http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/03/07/diy-cold-fusion-experimenter-claims-cop-11-with-a-naoh-electrolysis-system/

  • Zephir

    Whereas I don’t believe in hydrino stuff, I can see many common things of Mills experiments with so-called plasma electrolysis of water. http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/03/07/diy-cold-fusion-experimenter-claims-cop-11-with-a-naoh-electrolysis-system/

  • radvar

    Where was the event, specifically?

    • tlp

      At or near BrLP facilities. I am not sure if they have big enough room for 80 people on site.
      http://brilliantlightpower.com/facilities/

    • artefact

      I think most of the numbers so far came from short term measurements (like 8 minutes or even smaler. A more exact COP should come a bit later when the now better running device is measured. I read that it is allready planned in one of the PDFs that were posted. Numbers I read are arround 100 with potential to near infinity. But as long as it is over like 20 it is good enough.

  • artefact

    New pictures: http://brilliantlightpower.com/plasma-video/ from October 27th.

    • TOUSSAINT francois

      Wow ! thank you

    • Gerard McEk

      I think these pictures are extremely boring and say nothing without a proper comment. I would rather prefer to watch a fishbowl during an hour than watching these pictures. I guess that a life demonstration may be more convincing.

      • artefact

        The video of the industry day should be posted within a week or so. There he will tell us what we see in more detail I guess.

    • Brokeeper

      Very impressive, only 1% is visible light. This would mean a very broad efficient PV cell spectrum capture for all photon radiation.

      • artefact

        It gets converted to blackbody radiation by the cell to use normal PV cells.

        • Brokeeper

          Meaning turned into infrared light?

          • artefact

            From the BLP business plan:
            “SunCell converts the short wavelength light to a blackbody radiation, resembles the emission of the Sun.
            The blackbody temperature is adjusted to more closely match the response spectrum of commercial PV ”
            http://brilliantlightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/presentations/BrLP-Business-Presentation-060916.pdf
            Page 17 has it in pictures.

          • Brokeeper

            OK, I think I understand “Blackbody” now. I only remember blackbodies reaching only infrared frequencies but now remembering the earlier E-Cats white hot radiation. The wavelength peak is infrared but it has a wider bell curve:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body#/media/File:Black_body.svg
            Thanks!

          • Zephir

            The SunCell generates plain heat, it doesn’t require any progress in photovoltaics for its utilization. Once the most of energy is generated in ultraviolet, the existing solar cells would be deadly ineffective anyway. On the contrary, I consider such a delays a bit suspicious – what prohibits Mills to surround his cell with normal boiler and to generate the steam directly from it?

          • tlp

            Why don’t you also study what blackbody radiation means?
            And there is not any delays, everything is going as planned.

  • artefact

    New pictures: http://brilliantlightpower.com/plasma-video/ from October 27th.

    • TOUSSAINT francois

      Wow ! thank you

    • Gerard McEk

      I think these pictures are extremely boring and say nothing without a proper comment. I would rather prefer to watch a fishbowl during an hour than watching these pictures. I guess that a life demonstration may be more convincing.

      • artefact

        The video of the industry day should be posted within a week or so. There he will tell us what we see in more detail I guess.

    • Brokeeper

      Very impressive, only 1% is visible light around 400nm. This would mean a very broad efficient PV cell spectrum capture for all photon radiation at 2000 sun’s intensity. Are there PV cells available to handle these extreme specs?

      • artefact

        It gets converted to blackbody radiation by the cell to use normal PV cells.

        • Brokeeper

          Meaning turned into infrared light? Sorry I have little understanding how concentrator photovoltaics work verses PVs.

          • artefact

            From the BLP business plan:
            “SunCell converts the short wavelength light to a blackbody radiation, resembles the emission of the Sun.
            The blackbody temperature is adjusted to more closely match the response spectrum of commercial PV ”
            http://brilliantlightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/presentations/BrLP-Business-Presentation-060916.pdf
            Page 17 has it in pictures.

          • Brokeeper

            OK, I think I understand “Blackbody” now. I only remember blackbodies reaching only infrared frequencies but now remembering the earlier E-Cats white hot radiation. The wavelength peak is infrared but it has a wider bell curve:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body#/media/File:Black_body.svg
            Thanks!

          • Zephir

            The SunCell generates plain heat, it doesn’t require any progress in photovoltaics for its utilization. Once the most of energy is generated in ultraviolet, the existing solar cells would be deadly ineffective anyway. On the contrary, I consider such a delays a bit suspicious – what prohibits Mills to surround his cell with normal boiler and to generate the steam directly from it?

          • tlp

            Why don’t you also study what blackbody radiation means?
            And there is not any delays, everything is going as planned.

  • Gerard McEk

    As long as Andrea keeps us sleeping this is also something that can become interesting. I look forward to the moment that an apparatus will be demonstrated that will be able to generate a lot of (excess) energy. At the same time I’ll be very interested to see what this does to the world of physics, which will need A considerable revamp.

    • tlp

      That moment is here now. SunCell prototype is already generating a lot of excess energy. It just needs those solar panels to close the loop, so that it does not need any input electricity to continue energy production forever.

      • Gerard McEk

        I hope they can demonstrate that soon Tom, that would really be the prove of the pudding. Andrea Rossi has never shown a unit generating excess energy without any connection to the grid. Any idea how much energy (%) is generated in light and how much in heat? What is the average power capacity of the SunCell prototype (in/out)?

        • tlp

          They demonstrated that two days ago (I’m not Tom, and I wasn’t there), and also at the previous demo in June.
          Previous demo had a problem, that it melted very quickly. Now it does not melt anymore because of electrode-less design and graphite construction.
          Look at http://brilliantlightpower.com/plasma-video/
          In practice all energy is converted to heat first, that graphite ball is heated to 3000-3500K and then that heat can be converted to electricity using CPV panels, as it is glowing like a mini Sun. Power in is some watts, max some kW and out is about MW heat, about 250 kW electricity, initially perhaps 100 kW with simple CPV panels.

          • Dr. Mike

            tip,
            Data from the August 3, 2016 post on the website above that you cited says about a megawatt output power was achieved for a little over 8kW input power which would result in a COP of about 120 for heat output. They should be able to achieve a COP of 10-20 for electrical output with good CPV cells after accounting for the power required to cool the cells.
            Dr. Mike

          • tlp

            Yes but in the latest demo they showed how it work without any heating and even without ignition, so only input energy was to retract hydrogen from water, about 20 watts, as very tiny amount of hydrogen is needed.

          • Dr. Mike

            tip,
            Thanks for the info on how they have got the input power down to 20W.
            Dr. Mike

          • tlp

            You are welcome. 20W is said in this report, and that it goes for hydrogen retraction is said by Mills in the video description. One section of the video is marked “ignition off” and “ignition on”. There seems to be a little difference in light intensity, so the power is probably less during that section.

      • LuFong

        According to the other source I referenced below the earliest for closing the loop, ie a standalone system where they power the ignition with the CPV, is January 2017. Pretty sure this will not happen then but it does seem to be next on their scheduled milestones,

        • tlp

          Yes but the question was: lots of excess energy. That is already done and is the most important step. And of course essential for closing the loop.

          • Yes and this is the surely most fundamental point that mainstream science should be commenting on. If Mills really has achieved net energy production from his device, it shouldn’t matter to SCIENCE whether that net energy is not yet in a convenient form, such as electricity. It does obviously matter to the world of technology and green energy but NOT to science itself.

            The skeptics, led by Robert Park, only seem to have two arguments against Mills – that the SunCell violates the “laws” of physics and that it is not yet a commercial device. While the latter argument is by far the weaker one, a successful commercial launch of the SunCell will obviously have implications far beyond the introduction of “yet another energy generation device” as some of the more sleepy MSM may, at first, describe it. Park will know better and he and his fellow “spin surgeons” will have to start “scrubbing up” urgently. That promises to be hilarious in itself.

          • Omega Z

            But this technology must be researched in major government labs for 20, NAH- 50 years. As we have no understanding of it, we can not know what the long term consequences may be.

            This technology could generate some type of unknown radiation (Liken Waves) which could turn everyone to werewolves. Or Worse. Zombies.

            So Says, Robert Park

            One can stop or delay any technology. You merely need Imagination to create fear…

          • – Yep. In fact, I can just imagine a new B-grade horror movie: “X-Men: The Rise of the Hydrino Zombies”.

  • Gerard McEk

    As long as Andrea keeps us sleeping this is also something that can become interesting. I look forward to the moment that an apparatus will be demonstrated that will be able to generate a lot of (excess) energy. At the same time I’ll be very interested to see what this does to the world of physics, which will need A considerable revamp.

    • tlp

      That moment is here now. SunCell prototype is already generating a lot of excess energy. It just needs those solar panels to close the loop, so that it does not need any input electricity to continue energy production forever.

      • Gerard McEk

        I hope they can demonstrate that soon Tom, that would really be the prove of the pudding. Andrea Rossi has never shown a unit generating excess energy without any connection to the grid. Any idea how much energy (%) is generated in light and how much in heat? What is the average power capacity of the SunCell prototype (in/out)?

        • tlp

          They demonstrated that two days ago (I’m not Tom, and I wasn’t there), and also at the previous demo in June.
          Previous demo had a problem, that it melted very quickly. Now it does not melt anymore because of electrode-less design and graphite construction.
          Look at http://brilliantlightpower.com/plasma-video/
          In practice all energy is converted to heat first, that graphite ball is heated to 3000-3500K and then that heat can be converted to electricity using CPV panels, as it is glowing like a mini Sun. Power in is some watts, max some kW and out is about MW heat, about 250 kW electricity, initially perhaps 100 kW with simple CPV panels.

          • Dr. Mike

            tip,
            Data from the August 3, 2016 post on the website above that you cited says about a megawatt output power was achieved for a little over 8kW input power which would result in a COP of about 120 for heat output. They should be able to achieve a COP of 10-20 for electrical output with good CPV cells after accounting for the power required to cool the cells.
            Dr. Mike

          • tlp

            Yes but in the latest demo they showed how it work without any heating and even without ignition, so only input energy was to retract hydrogen from water, about 20 watts, as very tiny amount of hydrogen is needed.

          • Dr. Mike

            tip,
            Thanks for the info on how they have got the input power down to 20W.
            Dr. Mike

          • tlp

            You are welcome. 20W is said in this report, and that it goes for hydrogen retraction is said by Mills in the video description. One section of the video is marked “ignition off” and “ignition on”. There seems to be a little difference in light intensity, so the power is probably less during that section.

  • Justin

    I’ll say it again before somebody beats me to it: This seems like a total ripoff from Ghostbusters!!!

    • Ophelia Rump

      Don’t cross the streams!

  • Bård Havre

    SunCell and EcatX cater to different markets. The sun-cell is fairly complex mechanical device, with a very high output, primarily suited (in its present form), for industrial and commercial applications. Getting to reliable operation for extended periods without supervision will be a challenge in the short term. This will probably not be a household appliance in the foreseeable future.

    The EcatX, with low output modules, is probably a more flexible solution for generating heat, for which there is a huge demand in the winter in the northern hemisphere. In Norway, my country, close to 40% of electricity (hydro), is consumed by space heating, so even here, with prices around 10cent/kWh for private consumers, one would readily sell tens of thousands units yearly. So i think SunCell and EcatX can live happily side by side. If they both hit the market by 2017, that year will surely go down in history as THE year in the 21. century, hopefully with a Woman in the Oval Office as the icing on the cake.

    • artefact

      I think the market is big enough for both in the same segment I also think mills plan (acording to a video) is to have one commerical device per hundred of homes. Not one per household.
      But I agree Rossis device is much less complex and better sutable for devices like robots or stand alone home heaters etc.
      It will be interesting.

      • Axil Axil

        The SunCell is less complex with direct reactor to electrical conversion. The QuarkX requires a heat exchanger and a steam generator.

        • Svein

          If you only want heat the QuarkX is fine

          • artefact

            And the QuarkX is supposed to generate 20% electricity without anything.

          • Axil Axil

            Maybe the SunCell does the same thing, Time will tell.

        • Omega Z

          I’ve never heard Mills talk about cheap energy for the masses.

          I have heard him speak many times of huge profits to those who produce and sell energy to the masses. I’ve heard him talk of his income alone from this technology being the equivalent of current retail price. In short. Every time Mills speaks, the only words I hear is greed, greed greed greed. greed greed. I’m greedy.

          Rossi on the otherhand always says to cheap to copy. Cheap energy for the people. All he does seems aimed at making the technology and it’s energy cheap for the masses.

          However, I’ll repeat what I’ve been saying since 2011. I want there to be competition. To temper the greed of people like Mills and to keep those like Rossi true to their word. Competition is good for everyone.

          • Mark Underwood

            BrLP and their investors and energy sellers can make a very healthy profit at the same time as electricity consumers see electricity bills decrease. It’s a win win for almost everyone, short and long term.

            Rossi is an inventor with a backer like IH. Rossi hardly has to talk about money incentives. Backer entities like IH do the money talk to investors.

            Mills on the other hand is the entrepreneur and business owner besides being a theoretician and experimentalist. He’s the money talker, and of course he is going to talk about incentivizing profits. Judging Mills as greedy because of this is beyond the pale.

          • Omega Z

            If Mills was speaking only of profits, you could be right.

            However, Mills put numbers to it. 18 cents to 24 cents retail per KWh and him recieving 50% of that fee. Rossi has mentioned about 2 cents retail per KWh. I currently pay 8.08 cents retail per KWh.

      • enantiomer2000

        How do you know that Rossi’s device is less complex? Nobody has seen it and I don’ think anybody but Rossi has any specs on the device. Also, requiring heat piping for neighborhoods is a huge infrastructure problem. Stick one Suncell in your apartment complex or house and you have pure electricity…

  • Axil Axil

    Does the SunCell produce EMF interference which affects electrical equipment near it? Does the SunCell produce Sub-Atomic particles? Does the SunCell transmute elements to other elements or change the isotope of the elements that it is made from? Does the SunCell produce any type of gamma radiation?

    • tlp

      No.

      • Axil Axil

        We will see.

  • Axil Axil

    Does the SunCell produce EMF interference which affects electrical equipment near it? Does the SunCell produce Sub-Atomic particles? Does the SunCell transmute elements to other elements or change the isotope of the elements that it is made from? Does the SunCell produce any type of gamma radiation?

    • optiongeek

      1) The unit will produce blackbody radiation in the visible and UV range that will be absorbed by the CPV panel. Nothing in the side-band interference zone. 2) The waste products are: hydrinos (a “shrunken” form of hydrogen that is extremely stable, difficult to contain, and will float into space), and the waste from hydrolysis of water need to create the H fuel, i.e. a little Oxygen. 3) The process is intermediate between chemistry and nuclear. There is no impact on the nucleus and nothing like elemental transmutation going on. No isotopes are created. 4) No gamma radiation is predicted by the theory or detected in practice.

      • artefact

        Do you the approximate amount of hydrogen that gets used up per hour for a 1MW device? Would all H be H 1/4 afterwards or will it probably be a mix with also smaler H?

      • Axil Axil

        Where are the links to the tests for these assertions?

    • tlp

      No.

      • Axil Axil

        We will see.

        • enantiomer2000

          Indeed.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Boy they wish it did. SMH. Look out Dr Rossi, best hurry with those quarkx’s before it is too late.

  • artefact

    Do you the approximate amount of hydrogen that gets used up per hour for a 1MW device? Would all H be H 1/4 afterwards or will it probably be a mix with also smaler H?

  • Axil Axil

    Where are the links to the tests for these assertions?

  • artefact

    I think the market is big enough for both in the same segment I also think mills plan (acording to a video) is to have one commerical device per hundred of homes. Not one per household.
    But I agree Rossis device is much less complex and better sutable for devices like robots or stand alone home heaters etc.
    It will be interesting.

    • Axil Axil

      The SunCell is less complex with direct reactor to electrical conversion. The QuarkX requires a heat exchanger and a steam generator.

      • Svein

        If you only want heat the QuarkX is fine

        • artefact

          And the QuarkX is supposed to generate 20% electricity without anything.

          • Axil Axil

            Maybe the SunCell does the same thing, Time will tell.

      • Omega Z

        I’ve never heard Mills talk about cheap energy for the masses.

        I have heard him speak many times of huge profits to those who produce and sell energy to the masses. I’ve heard him talk of his income alone from this technology being the equivalent of current retail price. In short. Every time Mills speaks, the only words I hear is greed, greed greed greed. greed greed. I’m greedy.

        Rossi on the otherhand always says to cheap to copy. Cheap energy for the people. All he does seems aimed at making the technology and it’s energy cheap for the masses.

        However, I’ll repeat what I’ve been saying since 2011. I want there to be competition. To temper the greed of people like Mills and to keep those like Rossi true to their word. Competition is good for everyone.

        • Mark Underwood

          BrLP and their investors and energy sellers can make a very healthy profit at the same time as electricity consumers see electricity bills decrease. It’s a win win for almost everyone, short and long term.

          Rossi is an inventor with a backer like IH. Rossi hardly has to talk about money incentives. Backer entities like IH do the money talk to investors.

          Mills on the other hand is the entrepreneur and business owner besides being a theoretician and experimentalist. He’s the money talker, and of course he is going to talk about incentivizing profits. Judging Mills as greedy because of this is beyond the pale.

          • Omega Z

            If Mills was speaking only of profits, you could be right.

            However, Mills put numbers to it. 18 cents to 24 cents retail per KWh and him recieving 50% of that fee. Rossi has mentioned about 2 cents retail per KWh. I currently pay 8.08 cents retail per KWh.

  • Justin

    Gonna be the first kid on the block with a reactor in the backyard. It’s gonna be hot, very hot. I will install heatlamps all around the garden, dig out a pool that will be almost unusable due to excessive heating. And a sun, a turbocharged solarium that’s gonna light up the whole neighbourhood. It will be like summer – year round.
    That’s my plan..

    • cashmemorz

      With that kind of life style available to Suncell powered society, then there will be a greenhouse effect that will make the current one look like peanuts. All the more reason to get it to replace all FF sources of energy replaced and then use Suncell energy to power as many green house causing gasses scavenging methods as possible so that the extra heat produced by Suncells doesn’t get trapped by the green house gasses.

      • Justin

        Bah, yes. I’m sure you have a point. It would have be nice though. Could be Suncell will be the worst thing ever happened to man. Time will tell!

  • doug marker

    I will be pleasantly surprised if the engineers can solve all the technical challenges by end 2017. Getting this far has been a monumental challenge even if BLP appear to be on the ‘home run’.

    Anyone who ever believed back in 2010 that BLP or Andrea Rossi, would or could be in production inside 12 months, will clearly have never been involved in setting up a new mfg facility let alone doing so with world changing concepts.

    My advice is perhaps 2018 at the most optimistic but 2020 for some better probability.

    However, the future is looking a lot better.

    Doug Marker.

  • doug marker

    I will be pleasantly surprised if the engineers can solve all the technical challenges by end 2017. Getting this far has been a monumental challenge even if BLP appear to be on the ‘home run’.

    Anyone who ever believed back in 2010 that BLP or Andrea Rossi, would or could be in production inside 12 months, will clearly have never been involved in setting up a new mfg facility let alone doing so with world changing concepts.

    My advice is perhaps 2018 at the most optimistic but 2020 for some better probability.

    However, the future is looking a lot better.

    Doug Marker.

  • Leonard Weinstein

    The use of a Carbon based dome is a big mistake. The vapor pressure of Carbon is much higher than many metals and ceramics at the temperatures needed (it is nearly 10,000 times as high as Tungsten at 3,000K), even though the melting temperature for Carbon is the highest of the materials. The result would be evaporation Carbon coating the solar cells in a fairly short time. A much better choice would be a dark high temperature ceramic with sufficiently high melting point and very low vapor pressure at the required temperature (possibly as as a coating on the Carbon)

    • cashmemorz

      The reasons for an intermediate dome toa ct as dark body radiator is to prevent the heat from vapourizing the
      photovoltaics (PV) directly and to prevent the silver vapour from forming a coating, that is opaque to the ultraviolet light produced, on the surfaces where the photo-voltaic cells are located. This makes the Suncell more complicated than it has to be.

      A sufficiently fast moving gas current is required to to allow the silver vapour to be scavenged by vacuuming. The required gas must also be transparent to the light, mostly ultraviolet. During operation of the Suncell, as it is currently configured, the used Hydrogen, now Hydrino gas, and Oxygen, is removed somehow to prevent a build up of pressure inside the Suncell. The direction of the purging gas would preferably be away from the location of the PV. Since the Hydrino gas is so inert that it will not react with any materials normally used in the cell, then that same Hydrino gas can be gathered and used for purging the space between the silver stream and PV. The vaporizing silver fills the space at a rate that is required to be countered by a sufficiently forceful and continuous purge blast or current of Hydrino gas.

      The other issue, heat, can be then be mitigated much easier with the opaque vapour out of the way. The silver streams can now be much smaller and still produce sufficient light for high efficiency PV conversion. With a much smaller stream the excess heat will also be much less. A smaller silver stream will
      also produce that much less opaque silver vapour and allow for easier vacuuming.

      This could allow for a much smaller pumping device and silver stream in relation to the existing globe radius wherein the reaction occurs. A tiny, but still highly efficient light density flux, that is easy to prevent opaque silver deposition in the PV area is thus achievable.

      • Axil Axil

        If Mill can control the flow of silver vapor with hot ionized hydrogen, he could extract electric current directly from that plasma with a coil of Yttria-stabilized zirconia (YSZ), a ceramic that becomes conductive at high temperatures.

        Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) Power Generation

        Magnetohydrodynamic power generation provides a way of generating electricity directly from a fast moving stream of ionised gases without the need for any moving mechanical parts. The plasma acts from charge carriers (electric current)

        • tlp

          MHD was the plan in 2014, but was replaced by solar panels, because that is better solution.

          • Axil Axil

            What is the reason why he cannot do both? The method is called co-generation.

          • tlp

            I know co-generation as combined electricity and heat generation in power plants.
            I think MHD was rejected as more complex method than CPV panels. Better keep it simple.

          • Job001

            It is much cheaper to invest in another suncell rather than waste money on a cogeneration unit(ESWAG 10 times more costly) because high efficiency solar cells that convert 2000 sun equivalent flux are highly efficient(30% to 40%) and exceptionally cheap and compact for what they do with no moving parts!

      • Leonard Weinstein

        The purpose of the intermediate dome was to block the silver vapor from coating the solar cells, and also to convert the UV rich radiation to visible and near IR suitable for the solar cells. A gas flow shield would not work for the internal dome geometry. The only practical solution is selection of materials with sufficiently high melting temperature and low vapor pressure at the required temperatures. A thin Tungsten coat on the inner surface is ideal to protect the shield and avoid evaporation. A coating of of Tungsten Carbide would have low enough vapor pressure and good emissivity for the solar cells.

      • doug marker

        Good assessment. Thanks

  • Leonard Weinstein

    The use of a Carbon based dome is a big mistake. The vapor pressure of Carbon is much higher than many metals and ceramics at the temperatures needed (it is nearly 10,000 times as high as Tungsten at 3,000K), even though the melting temperature for Carbon is the highest of the materials. The result would be evaporation Carbon coating the solar cells in a fairly short time. A much better choice would be a dark high temperature ceramic with sufficiently high melting point and very low vapor pressure at the required temperature (possibly as as a coating on the Carbon)

    • cashmemorz

      The reasons for an intermediate dome to act as dark body radiator is to prevent the heat from vaporizing the photo voltaics (PV) directly and to prevent the silver vapor from forming a coating, that is opaque to the ultraviolet light produced, on the surfaces where the photo-voltaic cells are located. This makes the Suncell more complicated than it has to be.

      A sufficiently fast moving gas current is required to allow the silver vapor to be scavenged by vacuuming. The required gas must also be transparent to the light, mostly ultraviolet. During operation of the Suncell, as it is currently configured, the used Hydrogen, now Hydrino gas, and Oxygen, is removed somehow to prevent a build up of pressure inside the Suncell. The direction of the purging gas would preferably be away from the location of the PV. Since the Hydrino gas is so inert that it will not react with any materials normally used in the cell, then that same Hydrino gas can be gathered and used for purging the space between the silver stream and PV. The vaporizing silver fills the space at a rate that is required to be countered by a sufficiently forceful and continuous purge blast or current of Hydrino gas.

      The other issue, heat, can be then be mitigated much easier with the opaque vapor out of the way. The silver streams can now be much smaller and still produce sufficient light for high efficiency PV conversion. With a much smaller stream the excess heat will also be much less. A smaller silver stream will also produce that much less opaque silver vapor and allow for easier vacuuming.

      This could allow for a much smaller pumping device and silver stream in relation to the existing globe radius wherein the reaction occurs. A tiny, but still highly efficient light density flux, that is easy to prevent opaque silver deposition in the PV area is thus achievable.

      • Axil Axil

        If Mill can control the flow of silver vapor with hot ionized hydrogen, he could extract electric current directly from that plasma with a coil of Yttria-stabilized zirconia (YSZ), a ceramic that becomes conductive at high temperatures.

        Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) Power Generation

        Magnetohydrodynamic power generation provides a way of generating electricity directly from a fast moving stream of ionised gases without the need for any moving mechanical parts. The plasma acts like a charge carrier (electric current)

        • tlp

          MHD was the plan in 2014, but was replaced by solar panels, because that is better solution.

          • Axil Axil

            What is the reason why he cannot do both? The method is called co-generation.

          • tlp

            I know co-generation as combined electricity and heat generation in power plants.
            I think MHD was rejected as more complex method than CPV panels. Better keep it simple.

          • MorganMck

            Mills addresses this is the last presentation if you want to listen. Basically he says it is not worth effort to capture the heat when the CPV capture is so easy and cheap. With fuel costs being basically zero, he says discarding the heat the best option.

          • Job001

            It is much cheaper to invest in another suncell rather than waste money on a cogeneration unit(ESWAG 10 times more costly) because high efficiency solar cells that convert 2000 sun equivalent flux are highly efficient(30% to 40%) and exceptionally cheap and compact for what they do with no moving parts!

      • Leonard Weinstein

        The purpose of the intermediate dome was to block the silver vapor from coating the solar cells, and also to convert the UV rich radiation to visible and near IR suitable for the solar cells. A gas flow shield would not work for the internal dome geometry. The only practical solution is selection of materials with sufficiently high melting temperature and low vapor pressure at the required temperatures. A thin Tungsten coat on the inner surface is ideal to protect the shield and avoid evaporation. A coating of of Tungsten Carbide would have low enough vapor pressure and good emissivity for the solar cells.

      • doug marker

        Good assessment. Thanks

  • pg

    Not again…

    • Mark Underwood

      Surely the doctor has something for that

      • NCY

        I’ve hear that oil derived from the skin of a snake is good for healing this issue.

  • pg

    Not again…

    • Mark Underwood

      Surely the doctor has something for that

      • NCY

        I’ve hear that oil derived from the skin of a snake is good for healing this issue.

  • Bruno

    I’m very skeptical. Mills has been promising and never delivering for at least 15 years. He secures funding, moves the goal posts and then starts the PR process again. With regards to the photovoltaic component, does the technology even exist to extract megawatts from a sphere with the same surface area as a large beach ball? Are we even close to having that technology? I was SUPER excited about Mills & BLP 15 years ago, but after so many disappointment I gave up on him. I’m not quite there yet with Rossi, but I’m getting close.

    • Job001

      Mills is deviating from his old fund raising pattern. His demos show increasingly sophisticated science, presentations, instrumentation, and equipment. He is a good research scientist, a fun bit eccentric, and even has a well developed but still debatable theory.

      I say, “Give him a break, research always takes longer than we hope.”

      • NCY

        he has a theory which is quite a large crock of shit. At least LENR actually makes some sense within established physics theory, in fact in some estimates it would make less sense if it didn’t work. Mills’ hydrant theory though is such an outlandishly ridiculous notion that it defies belief that he has got as much funding as he has.

        If he even has anything it is probably LENR based, but with his track record (and I’ve looked at his publications), he seems like a snake oil salesman.

        • cashmemorz

          “Mills’ hydrant theory”. I get a vision of a canine doing his job on a, you know, a hydrant. Especially the bright yellow type. With a bright yellow stream one side consisting of a conducting fluid that makes a mess. Oh, I can’t go on.

          • NCY

            well that was autocorrect, but it is amusing nonetheless.

        • Job001

          Observational science rather than inflammatory nonsense please! Lazy accusations without statistics is not science.

          • NCY

            I wish Mills shared this goal! Or rather, that he had a goal, he has been moving the posts for quite a long time.

        • Epi

          I started an evalutation of his theory here:
          https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/4510-Validation-of-Randell-Mills-GUTCP-a-call-for-action/?postID=40454#post40454

          A large crock of shit could not calculate all this parameters of hydroxyl, water and the ionization energies of nearly 60 atoms/ions just using fundamental constants. So get your facts straight. Just relying on wikipedia is not always the way to go.

          • NCY

            Relying on wikipedia? Great logical fallacy you hit me with there.

          • Epi

            Oh…not a wikipedia source? Then show me where it is proven that his theory is a large crock of shit. I would be really grateful…I mean that serious. I spend large amounts of time to find only ONE and I failed.

      • Mats002

        Hi Jobs, what’s your experience of developing things?

        • Job001

          New product and process development.

          • Mats002

            Ok – fair answer, sometimes there are so much opinions here – speculations only. Shit on the hands is good 😉

    • Rene

      The closest PV tech to do high temperature and high photon flux conversion was the Solyndra – they failed. There are patents on high flux PV, most claims in those patents relate to cooling techniques.
      My general take on LENR industrialists like Rossi or Mills is that they leave too few clues for independent replication, and so their proof of validity is in their product release. It means there is not much point in paying attention to them until that release date. Even estimates from them of release dates are demonstrably questionable and not reliable.

      • TVulgaris

        Solyndra’s failure was entirely managerial and financial, not at all in the tech. People (as in distributors, let alone end-use customers after supply chain price inflation) didn’t want to pay the cost of CIGS when lower-efficiency but MUCH cheaper alternatives were on the market.

        • Rene

          The tech worked albeit expensively. China pretty much killed Solyndra, well, that and some dubious financial decisions.
          High flux PV is tricky stuff and I’d be a lot worried about various gaseous metals depositing themselves onto the PV in a Suncell. It is quite the engineering challenge.

  • Job001

    Research and commercialization science and engineering is a fast process now because of all the learning, instrumentation, and super computer improvements that has occurred since 1903. It’s a different ballgame now.

    • Omega Z

      The faster we go, the less progress we make.

  • Job001

    Mills is deviating from his old fund raising pattern. His demos show increasingly sophisticated science, presentations, instrumentation, and equipment. He is a good research scientist, a fun bit eccentric, and even has a well developed but somewhat disputed theory.

    I say, “Give him a break, research always takes longer than we hope.”

  • Job001

    Mills is deviating from his old fund raising pattern. His demos show increasingly sophisticated science, presentations, instrumentation, and equipment. He is a good research scientist, a fun bit eccentric, and even has a well developed but still debatable theory.

    I say, “Give him a break, research always takes longer than we hope.”

    • NCY

      he has a theory which is quite a large crock of shit. At least LENR actually makes some sense within established physics theory, in fact in some estimates it would make less sense if it didn’t work. Mills’ hydrant theory though is such an outlandishly ridiculous notion that it defies belief that he has got as much funding as he has.

      If he even has anything it is probably LENR based, but with his track record (and I’ve looked at his publications), he seems like a snake oil salesman.

      • cashmemorz

        “Mills’ hydrant theory”. I get a vision of a canine doing his job on a, you know, a hydrant. Especially the bright yellow type. With a bright yellow stream one side consisting of a conducting fluid that makes a mess. Oh, I can’t go on.

        • NCY

          well that was autocorrect, but it is amusing nonetheless.

          • R V

            The concept of COP is usually is only used by free energy types. One does not speak of the COP of natural gas. Neither does one need the concept for the hydrino based energy as the hydrino is a valid energy source.

      • Job001

        Observational science rather than inflammatory nonsense please! Lazy accusations without statistics is not science.

        • NCY

          I wish Mills shared this goal! Or rather, that he had a goal, he has been moving the posts for quite a long time.

    • Mats002

      Hi Jobs, what’s your experience of developing things?

      • Job001

        New product and process development.

  • Axil Axil

    I predict that if Mills used a 50/50 mix of protium and deuterium in the SunCell, it wound fail to work.

    • Karl Venter

      Hi Axil

      Should the question not be “what will make it better/easier etc?”

      • Axil Axil

        Mill theory is based on electron behavior outside of the nucleus. The disparate isotopes of hydrogen are bases on nuclear activity, the reaction poisoning based on an incompatibility of nuclear factors.,

    • Zephir

      Without explanation it’s not a prediction, just guessing. How did you get into such an conclusion?

      • Axil Axil

        Any LENR expert knows that the two isotopes are LENR poisons to each other.

        • Zephir

          I’m not an expert, so could you link some evidence, that the mixture of isotopes does perform worse than the diluted single isotope? And why Mills should bother with 50/50 mix of protium and deuterium in the SunCell?

          • Axil Axil

            This factor has come from the experiments of Piantelli. That should be enough to get your research going.

          • Zephir

            Link, link please … you should already know, I’m always dealing with substance – not with surface…

          • Axil Axil

            Did you try the Google at least, before rising such objections? I’m not here for teaching the people to Google the facts, but for pointing to facts.

          • Zephir

            word salad

          • Zephir

            word salad

  • Axil Axil

    I predict that if Mills used a 50/50 mix of protium and deuterium in the SunCell, it wound fail to work.

    • Karl Venter

      Hi Axil

      Should the question not be “what will make it better/easier etc?”

      • Axil Axil

        Mill theory is based on electron behavior outside of the nucleus. The disparate isotopes of hydrogen are based on nuclear activity, the reaction poisoning based on an incompatibility of nuclear factors.

    • Zephir

      Without explanation it’s not a prediction, just guessing. How did you get into such an conclusion?

      • Axil Axil

        Any LENR expert knows that the two isotopes are LENR poisons to each other.

        • Zephir

          I’m not an expert, so could you link some evidence, that the mixture of isotopes does perform worse than the diluted single isotope? And why the hydrino reaction (based on electron behavior outside of the nucleus) should be affected with composition of this nucleus? And why Mills should bother with 50/50 mix of protium and deuterium in the SunCell?

          • Axil Axil

            This factor has come from the experiments of Piantelli. That should be enough to get your research going.

          • Zephir

            Link, link please … you should already know, I’m always dealing with substance – not with surface…

          • Axil Axil

            Did you try the Google at least, before rising such objections? I’m not here for teaching the people to Google the facts, but for pointing to facts.

          • Zephir

            word salad

          • Zephir

            word salad

    • MorganMck

      I predict that if Mills used a 50/50 mix of toothpaste and shaving cream in the SunCell, it wound fail to work.

  • Zephir

    I think, if you could see the QuarkX reactor on video, you would say the opposite. The people are behaving like silly animals, they just believe what they can see. And what they can just see is the SunCell, not QuarkX. But what is good is the mutual competition of these technologies. I don’t trust neither Rossi, neither Mills – without competition there will be always temptation to sell the whole project to military and to embargo it before publics completely.

  • MorganMck
  • doug marker

    Comment for Axil Axil. Re the questions you have posed here, asking them here seems a lost effort as Mills is not here to answer you. However he does answer posts at the Yahoo group (link below). The group is called ‘SocietyforClassicalPhysics’

    https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SocietyforClassicalPhysics/info

    I have never asked him a question there myself but on the few occasions I have visited the forum, have seen him reply to politely worded and sensible questions at that forum.

    So, I am sure if you pose your questions politely and thoughtfully, you will get a thoughtful and polite response.

    One other point, though, is that many of the issues you are raising don’t seem related to Mills hydrino theory and process ? – but far more related to LENR+ processes ?. Do you agree that The ‘claimed’ hydrino process is quite unrelated to the ‘claimed’ NiH LENR processes. If not then my advice is to do some research before you ask Mills any questions.

    However, one topic you are very familiar with and that you have a lot of excellent ideas on, is (IIRC) the combined magnetic moment created by synchronised electrons when spinning in unison. Anything you ask him in that respect could prove very informative, certainly to myself.

    Cheers

    Doug Marker

    • Axil Axil

      Doug Marker:

      There is nothing new under the sun, that includes the SunCell. There have been a number of other systems that have been very close in design to the SunCell. These other systems showed transmutation, electric interference, the need for isotopic purity, production of excess electrons, the suppression of gamma radiation, and the generation of high frequency of EMF such as XUV and soft x-rays.

      For example, Mills might not want to see one of these common characteristics show up and be recognized in his system so he will not test for them. One example would be isotopic shifts in the silver from normal distribution.

      Mills would not want to admit to such an isotopic shift appearing in his SunCell after a long duration run. That finding would indicate that the source of excess energy that the SunCell is seeing is derived from nuclear processes rather that the production of energy from lowered electron orbits.

      • doug marker

        Axil

        You said “Mills would not want to admit to such an isotopic shift appearing in his SunCell after a long duration run.”

        Can you explain why this would be ?

        Thanks

        Doug

        • Axil Axil

          Mills rejects the idea that his results come from low energy nuclear reactions from a marketing and fundraising perspective because that association would taint his work with crackpotism associated with LENR.

          Mills started out as a cold fusion researcher but came up with his own interpretation of science in a few years where no nuclear connections where allowed.

          IMHO, the lowered orbitals that Mills sees is a result of Hole superconductivity that sets in when many elements and compounds are formed under extreme pressure.

          His HOH is an example of metalized water that is formed under extreme pressure.

          physics.aps.org/articles/v9/43

          http://physics.aps.org/assets/60396dd8-5897-4189-bd22-d5e6f539a906/e43_1_medium.png

          “To explain their results, the researchers conducted first-principles calculations and found that a water molecule can occupy six symmetrical orientations in a beryl channel, in agreement with the known crystal structure. A single orientation has the oxygen atom roughly in the center of the channel, with the two hydrogen pointing to the same side (like a “<” symbol) toward one of the channel’s six hexagonal faces. Other orientations point to other faces, but are separated from each other by energy barriers of around 50 meV. However, these barriers don't stop the hydrogen from tunneling among the six orientations and thereby splitting the ground-state energy into multiple levels. The energy differences among these levels were consistent with the seven peaks observed in the neutron scattering data, the researchers found."

          • tlp

            Mills has never done cold fusion research, he invented gutcp/hydrino theory before 1989.

          • Axil Axil

            http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=421

            See Jones Beene’s post

            The electrolic cell is a cold fusion device.

          • tlp

            No, it was a hydrino reaction device. From your link:
            However, it could well be that the wet electrolytic hydrino technology, and perhaps some of the original personnel, did not fit well into the Modine corporate culture, and realizing the unfulfilled potential of the wet cell, these R&D folks decided to leave.

          • doug marker

            Axil wrote “Mills rejects the idea that his results come from low energy nuclear reactions from a marketing and fundraising perspective because that association would taint his work with crackpotism associated with LENR.”

            Sorry but I don’t agree with this speculation. (That is all it appears to be).

            Mills and his biographers say that once Mills realised what a Hydrino was, he could see (as anyone should) that a hydrino transition is unrelated to D+D fusion or to neuton capture events W&L.
            Do you dispute this ?.

            But I do agree that in his early days when he built and tested CIHT cells, he didn’t know quite what the process was as those devices were electrolytic cells but using light water rather than heavy water. So, yes with his CIHT cells he regarded them as related to what we now call LENR+

            Axil, I usually enjoy your ideas and so often when following your links, am able to really enjoy what they lead to. Have said so often. But on the matter of Mills and hydrino theory and processe, am sadly of the opinion you really need to read up on it. Am hoping you will accept this as good advice from a friend.

            Cheers Doug.

          • Axil Axil

            Holmlid has confirmed that the reduction of electron orbitals below the base level does produce an energy of condinsation of about 600 eV per electron when hydrides are metalized. This process is a result of the formation of Hole superconductivity

            see

            http://physics.ucsd.edu/~jorge/hole.html

            but this state of matter produces muons which is a nuclear based process when muons because of their large mass orbit at low levels close to the nucleus and interact with it.

            See

            http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/S0218301316500853

            This new understanding of compressed matter as related to high pressure physics does not contravene quantum mechanics as Mills postulates but places a new face on it.

            As what Mills really believes, who can say, but Mills has been well funded as LENR has not been. Be as it may, whatever is the thinking behind Mill’s sales pitch, it has worked.

  • doug marker

    Comment for Axil Axil. Re the questions you have posed here, asking them here seems a lost effort as Mills is not here to answer you. However he does answer posts at the Yahoo group (link below). The group is called ‘SocietyforClassicalPhysics’

    https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SocietyforClassicalPhysics/info

    I have never asked him a question there myself but on the few occasions I have visited the forum, have seen him reply to politely worded and sensible questions at that forum.

    So, I am sure if you pose your questions politely and thoughtfully, you will get a thoughtful and polite response.

    One other point, though, is that many of the issues you are raising don’t seem related to Mills hydrino theory and process ? – but far more related to LENR+ processes ?. Do you agree that The ‘claimed’ hydrino process is quite unrelated to the ‘claimed’ NiH LENR processes. If not then my advice is to do some research before you ask Mills any questions.

    However, one topic you are very familiar with and that you have a lot of excellent ideas on, is (IIRC) the combined magnetic moment created by synchronised electrons when spinning in unison. Anything you ask him in that respect could prove very informative, certainly to myself.

    Cheers

    Doug Marker

    • Axil Axil

      Doug Marker:

      See post on the Anatoly Klimov system above.

      There is nothing new under the sun, that includes the SunCell. There have been a number of other systems that have been very close in design to the SunCell. These other systems showed transmutation, electric interference, the need for isotopic purity, production of excess electrons, the suppression of gamma radiation, and the generation of high frequency of EMF such as XUV and soft x-rays.

      For example, Mills might not want to see one of these common characteristics show up and be recognized in his system so he will not test for them. One example would be isotopic shifts in the silver from normal distribution.

      Mills would not want to admit to such an isotopic shift appearing in his SunCell after a long duration run. That finding would indicate that the source of excess energy that the SunCell is seeing is derived from nuclear processes rather that the production of energy from lowered electron orbits.

      • doug marker

        Axil

        You said “Mills would not want to admit to such an isotopic shift appearing in his SunCell after a long duration run.”

        Can you explain why this would be ?

        Thanks

        Doug

        • Axil Axil

          Mills rejects the idea that his results come from low energy nuclear reactions from a marketing and fundraising perspective because that association would taint his work with crackpotism associated with LENR.

          Mills started out as a cold fusion researcher but came up with his own interpretation of science in a few years where no nuclear connections where allowed.

          IMHO, the lowered orbitals that Mills sees is a result of Hole superconductivity that sets in when many elements and compounds are formed under extreme pressure.

          His HOH is an example of metalized water that is formed under extreme pressure.

          physics.aps.org/articles/v9/43

          http://physics.aps.org/assets/60396dd8-5897-4189-bd22-d5e6f539a906/e43_1_medium.png

          “To explain their results, the researchers conducted first-principles calculations and found that a water molecule can occupy six symmetrical orientations in a beryl channel, in agreement with the known crystal structure. A single orientation has the oxygen atom roughly in the center of the channel, with the two hydrogen pointing to the same side (like a “<” symbol) toward one of the channel’s six hexagonal faces. Other orientations point to other faces, but are separated from each other by energy barriers of around 50 meV. However, these barriers don't stop the hydrogen from tunneling among the six orientations and thereby splitting the ground-state energy into multiple levels. The energy differences among these levels were consistent with the seven peaks observed in the neutron scattering data, the researchers found."

          • tlp

            Mills has never done cold fusion research, he invented gutcp/hydrino theory before 1989.

          • Axil Axil

            http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=421

            See Jones Beene’s post

            The electrolic cell is a cold fusion device.

            Also see

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/05/19/account-of-thermacore-1996-runaway-incident-jones-beene-vortex-l/

            “The (then) owner of Thermacore, Yale Eastman was frightened that an explosion was imminent and that someone could be killed. He forbade any further work on LENR. The incident was not published.”

          • tlp

            No, it was a hydrino reaction device. From your link:
            “However, it could well be that the wet electrolytic hydrino technology, and perhaps some of the original personnel, did not fit well into the Modine corporate culture, and realizing the unfulfilled potential of the wet cell, these R&D folks decided to leave. ”

            In the second link LENR was a mistake by Jones Beene, read the comment by me and some followups.

            Thermacore paper:
            http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GernertNnascenthyd.pdf
            It is all about hydrinos.

          • optiongeek

            Dr. Mills is nothing if not completely thorough. If you suggested a confirmatory experimental procedure to him I suspect he would either direct you existing experimental evidence or would likely oblige with an appropriate lab examination. He’s eager for scientific acceptance.

          • doug marker

            Axil wrote “Mills rejects the idea that his results come from low energy nuclear reactions from a marketing and fundraising perspective because that association would taint his work with crackpotism associated with LENR.”

            Sorry but I don’t agree with this speculation. (That is all it appears to be).

            Mills and his biographers say that once Mills realised what a Hydrino was, he could see (as anyone should) that a hydrino transition is unrelated to D+D fusion or to neuton capture events (Widom & Larsen). Do you agree ?.

            I do agree that in his early days when he built and tested CIHT cells, he may not have been 100% on what the process was as those devices were electrolytic cells but using light water rather than heavy water. So, yes with his CIHT cells he could have regarded them as related to what we now call LENR+

            Axil, I usually enjoy your ideas and so often when following your links, am able to really enjoy what they lead to. Have said so often. But on the matter of Mills and hydrino theory and processes, am sadly of the opinion you really need to read up on it. Am hoping you will accept this as good advice from a friend.

            Cheers Doug.

          • Axil Axil

            Holmlid has confirmed that the reduction of electron orbitals below the base level does produce an energy of condinsation of about 600 eV per electron when hydrides are metalized. This process is a result of the formation of Hole superconductivity

            see

            http://physics.ucsd.edu/~jorge/hole.html

            but this state of matter produces muons which is a nuclear based process when muons because of their large mass orbit at low levels close to the nucleus and interact with it.

            See

            http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/S0218301316500853

            This new understanding of compressed matter as related to high pressure physics does not contravene quantum mechanics as Mills postulates but places a new face on it.

            As what Mills really believes, who can say, but Mills has been well funded as LENR has not been. Be as it may, whatever is the thinking behind Mill’s sales pitch, it has worked.

          • A correction on that – Mills published and presented at LENR events but he never, ever believed in LENR – He always stated that the effects were from Hydrino formation and quite frankly he has been proved absolutely right.

          • MorganMck

            So you are saying the MIlls developed a theory, wrote an 1100 page book describing it (and updated it countless times), developed substantial software based on it and defended it against academics and all comers for years just to avoid the negative marketing and fundraising effects of being associated with cold fusion (or anything nuclear)? You are saying that he doesn’t really believe his own GUT and it’s just a sham for marketing purposes? Do you really believe that?

            I have been very critical of Mills over the years regarding his endless broken promises and missed deadlines for commercialization, but never doubted that he believed his own theory. You have some “splaining to do” on how you arrive at that conclusion given all the evidence to the contrary.

          • doug marker

            Morgan,
            I know where you are coming from re this remark. I started reading MIlls claims just over 4 years ago. I am not convinced yet that it is what he claims or is commercially viable, but, the more I read, the closer that ‘seems’ to be getting. In fact, my initial reaction to Mills was that he was too ‘lofty’ – he was labelled a genius with wild ideas by some. So for myself, backed away from his work and looked elsewhere. But, the more looking done, the more elegant Mills’ explanations and theories seemed to become.

            The really interesting aha moments for me came from reading Brett Holverstott’s book as at last we had a view of Mills that is very well articulated, incredibly well detailed, and by someone who watched much of the Mill’s story unfold. If I could attain half the knowledge of quantum mechanics, and science in general, that Holverstott shows he knows, I would be very very pleased with myself.

            The critical aspect for all our interests is to keep an open mind. But, we each have to do our own research as in the short term, it is our own self we need to convince. Convincing others is a very hard slog and often not worth the effort.

            So many eventual advances in history had to run the gauntlet of ridicule and criticism before they became accepted. And even then, in time each of those advances may have been bettered. So the 64,000$ question re Mill’s theories, is “has Mills come up with a better theory that will allow greater advances in science ?” – if yes, great !, if not then so be it.

            Doug Marker

  • Rene

    The closest PV tech to do high temperature and high photon flux conversion was the Solyndra – they failed. There are patents on high flux PV, most claims in those patents relate to cooling techniques.
    My general take on LENR industrialists like Rossi or Mills is that they leave too few clues for independent replication, and so their proof of validity is in their product release. It means there is not much point in paying attention to them until that release date. Even estimates from them of release dates are demonstrably questionable and not reliable.

    • TVulgaris

      Solyndra’s failure was entirely managerial and financial, not at all in the tech. People (as in distributors, let alone end-use customers after supply chain price inflation) didn’t want to pay the cost of CIGS when lower-efficiency but MUCH cheaper alternatives were on the market.

      • Rene

        The tech worked albeit expensively. China pretty much killed Solyndra, well, that and some dubious financial decisions.
        High flux PV is tricky stuff and I’d be a lot worried about various gaseous metals depositing themselves onto the PV in a Suncell. It is quite the engineering challenge.

  • cashmemorz

    With that kind of life style available to Suncell powered society, then there will be a greenhouse effect that will make the current one look like peanuts. All the more reason to get it to replace all FF sources of energy replaced and then use Suncell energy to power as many green house causing gasses scavenging methods as possible so that the extra heat produced by Suncells doesn’t get trapped by the green house gasses.

    • Omega Z

      ->”So they just elected to vent it off.”

      This kind of thinking always leads to disasters down the road.
      This kind of thinking lead to rivers that burned with fire.
      This kind of thinking lead cities where you could not breath.

      What shall we do with all that excess heat?

      We shall just vent it off.

      What could possibly go wrong.

      • doug marker

        “This kind of thinking always leads to disasters down the road.”

        Fact or random speculation 🙂

        Cheers
        D

        • Omega Z

          We currently produce approximately 3KW thermal to generate 1KW electric. To think changing that ratio to 100KW+ thermal to generate 1KW electric wont have consequences would be naive. We also have a history of failing to see the possible consequences until after the fact.

          • tlp

            Your figures are wrong, SunCell is 1MW thermal, 250kW electric, more when better solar panels are developed. The first prototype may be closer to your figures, but it is just a first prototype, to show to the world as quickly as possible first ever “free electricity” generator. I mean electricity from just water, which shouldn’t be possible, but it is.

          • Omega Z

            “Electricity from water which shouldn’t be possible.”

            Why not. It contains hydrogen. Also by adding some salt you can draw low voltage from it using the proper electrodes.

            Many are talking primarily about being off grid. What are you going to do with 250KW. Your back to mostly waste heat.

            Light is made up of various wavelengths. Solar cells convert only the wavelength it is designed for. Thus they will always have limited efficiency. Beyond that, you can only place a certain amount of solar cells around the reaction Mills is producing. The more you place around it, the more distance and reduced efficiency you will have.

          • doug marker

            So following this logic, the suncell is a certain disaster waiting to happen!.

            Sorry but can’t see this.

            D

  • Axil Axil

    A system similar to the SunCell as follows:

    http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/NagelICCF19.pdf

    Anatoly Klimov was lead author of two papers at ICCF19.
    Both of them dealt with plasmoids. They are defined as
    coherent structures of both plasmas and magnetic fields. The
    first, single-author paper listed Klimov’s affiliation as the
    Joint Institute of High Temperatures RAS in Moscow. It was
    a review of about 20 years of research on energy production,
    transmutations and ball lightning involving “cold heterogeneous
    plasmoids.” Klimov stated that energy gains in the
    range from 4 to 10 were reported in papers dated 1985 and
    1994. In an experiment with energy gains of 2 to 4, the concentration
    of Li and Ca were increased by factors of 100 to 1000. That determination was based on Optical Spectroscopy. Infrared, Atomic Absorption, Ion Mass and XRay Spectroscopies were also used in the research.

    The second paper by Klimov was co-authored with six others, all authors affiliated with the company New Inflow LLC.11 According to their website, the company has a broad program spanning experiments, theory and numerical simulations in seven listed organizations of Russian universities Figure 1. The top image shows an E-Cat made by Rossi, which was tested by Levi and his team. At the bottom is a photograph of the replica of the E-Cat as made and tested by Parkhomov.

    JULY/AUGUST 2015 • ISSUE 122 • INFINITE ENERGY 6
    and the Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS). The website also
    states that LENR effects have been confirmed in several laboratories
    with energy gains of 6 to 8 and evidence of transmutations
    was obtained. They assert that devices from the company
    can use a wide variety of materials as fuels, not just Pd or Ni.
    The paper by the group at ICCF19 reported energy gains
    from plasmoid vortex reactors in the range of 2 to 10, supposedly
    due to LENR. They recorded “intensive” X-ray emission in
    the 1-10 keV range. Numerical simulations of the plasmas and
    their emissions were performed. The poster from this paper is available from the New Inflow LLC website http://www.newinflow.ru.

    • doug marker

      Hi Axil,
      I read the infinite energy article but could not find data in it that appeared to confirm that Klimov had conducted experiments that match Mills Hydrino claims ?.

      Is there a web site that explains it in a way that a comparison can be attempted ?

      Thanks

      Doug Marker

      • Axil Axil

        See Ken Shoulders work on spark discharge into hydrogen loaded palladium

        http://darksideofgravity.com/ChargeClustersInAction.pdf

        See transmutation on page 11.

        This article explains how the SunCell Works.

        • tlp

          No, only transmutation happens to the hydrogen atom as it transmutes to hydrino. Only hydrogen is consumed in SunCell, and hydrinos are waste product, though those could be collected and used instead of helium, where helium is needed.

          • Axil Axil

            Mills theory does not permit the NUCLEUS to change not even hydrogen.

          • tlp

            I didn’t say anything about NUCLEUS, of cource it doesnt change. But Hydrogen ATOM changes to Hydrino. And you know very well what that means.

          • Mylan

            Even if overunity will be proven for Mills’ apparatus that would still not prove that Hydrinos are being made. It is a problem if you predict the production of something that by definition is inert.

          • tlp

            What is the problem? Hydrino formation has been verified in more than 100 scientific papers. They plan to offer hydrinos as a cheaper alternative to helium. They are basically waste product, but some effort is needed to collect them.

          • Mylan

            So what? Papers by who? Mills? Well, then it must be true, doesn’t it? Do you have any idea, how many papers out there are nonsense? If a new idea contradicts fundamental principles that are well established and proven over and over again, it will not be widely accepted before the according experiments haven’t been repeated by several independent researchers. That Mills tried to intimidate critical scientists certainly won’t help his point.

          • tlp

            Don’t panic, take a look here:
            http://www.brettholverstott.com/annoucements/2016/7/21/accountability
            As you will see, there are papers from independent researchers also.

          • Mylan

            Mills is an author of nearly all the journal articles found under this link. That is not what would generally be considered independent replication.

          • tlp

            But not all, continue reading.

          • Mylan

            I see one journal article in this list where Mills is not an author.

          • tlp

            Fine. Then there is many with Mills marked as a coauthor, when he just provided some advice or some equipements.

          • Mylan

            If he is an author on the paper it is not an independent replication. Anyway, we can let time decide. If Mills ever gets his device to the market, my scepticism could be disproven, because then there would be a significant supply of hydrinos for everybody to do experiments with.
            Knowing the history of Mills’ multiple announcements of near-term commercialization, the trend is on my side.

          • optiongeek

            Hydrinos are proven by the detection of EUV continuum radiation with predicted cutoffs at 91.2nm / (n – 1)^2. Other techniques confirm hydrinos as well. It’s as proven as it can be. Read the reports.

  • Axil Axil

    A system similar to the SunCell as follows:

    http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/NagelICCF19.pdf

    Anatoly Klimov was lead author of two papers at ICCF19.
    Both of them dealt with plasmoids. They are defined as
    coherent structures of both plasmas and magnetic fields. The
    first, single-author paper listed Klimov’s affiliation as the
    Joint Institute of High Temperatures RAS in Moscow. It was
    a review of about 20 years of research on energy production,
    transmutations and ball lightning involving “cold heterogeneous
    plasmoids.” Klimov stated that energy gains in the
    range from 4 to 10 were reported in papers dated 1985 and
    1994. In an experiment with energy gains of 2 to 4, the concentration
    of Li and Ca were increased by factors of 100 to 1000. That determination was based on Optical Spectroscopy. Infrared, Atomic Absorption, Ion Mass and XRay Spectroscopies were also used in the research.

    The second paper by Klimov was co-authored with six others, all authors affiliated with the company New Inflow LLC.11 According to their website, the company has a broad program spanning experiments, theory and numerical simulations in seven listed organizations of Russian universities Figure 1. The top image shows an E-Cat made by Rossi, which was tested by Levi and his team. At the bottom is a photograph of the replica of the E-Cat as made and tested by Parkhomov.

    JULY/AUGUST 2015 • ISSUE 122 • INFINITE ENERGY 6
    and the Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS). The website also
    states that LENR effects have been confirmed in several laboratories
    with energy gains of 6 to 8 and evidence of transmutations
    was obtained. They assert that devices from the company
    can use a wide variety of materials as fuels, not just Pd or Ni.
    The paper by the group at ICCF19 reported energy gains
    from plasmoid vortex reactors in the range of 2 to 10, supposedly
    due to LENR. They recorded “intensive” X-ray emission in
    the 1-10 keV range. Numerical simulations of the plasmas and
    their emissions were performed. The poster from this paper is available from the New Inflow LLC website http://www.newinflow.ru.

    See the experiment here

    http://www.newinflow.ru/pdf/Klimov_Poster.pdf

    • doug marker

      Hi Axil,
      I read the infinite energy article but could not find data in it that appeared to confirm that Klimov had conducted experiments that match Mills Hydrino claims ?.

      Is there a web site that explains it in a way that a comparison can be attempted ?

      Thanks

      Doug Marker

      • Axil Axil

        See Ken Shoulders work on spark discharge into hydrogen loaded palladium

        http://darksideofgravity.com/ChargeClustersInAction.pdf

        See transmutation on page 11.

        This article explains how the SunCell Works.

        • tlp

          No, only transmutation happens to the hydrogen atom as it transmutes to hydrino. Only hydrogen is consumed in SunCell, and hydrinos are waste product, though those could be collected and used instead of helium, where helium is used for uplift.

          • Axil Axil

            Mills theory does not permit the NUCLEUS to change not even hydrogen.

          • tlp

            I didn’t say anything about NUCLEUS, of course it doesnt change. But Hydrogen ATOM changes to Hydrino. And you know very well what that means.

          • Mylan

            Even if overunity will be proven for Mills’ apparatus that would still not prove that Hydrinos are being made. It is a problem if you predict the production of something that by definition is inert.

          • tlp

            What is the problem? Hydrino formation has been verified in more than 100 scientific papers. They plan to offer hydrinos as a cheaper alternative to helium. They are basically waste product, but some effort is needed to collect them.

          • Mylan

            So what? Papers by who? Mills? Well, then it must be true, doesn’t it? Do you have any idea, how many papers out there are nonsense? If a new idea contradicts fundamental principles that are well established and proven over and over again, it will not be widely accepted before the according experiments haven’t been repeated by several independent researchers. That Mills tried to intimidate critical scientists certainly won’t help his point.

          • tlp

            Don’t panic, take a look here:
            http://www.brettholverstott.com/annoucements/2016/7/21/accountability
            As you will see, there are papers from independent researchers also.

          • Mylan

            Mills is an author of nearly all the journal articles found under this link. That is not what would generally be considered independent replication.

          • tlp

            But not all, continue reading.

          • Mylan

            I see one journal article in this list where Mills is not an author.

          • tlp

            Fine. Then there is many with Mills marked as a coauthor, when he just provided some advice or some equipements.

          • Mylan

            If he is an author on the paper it is not an independent replication. Anyway, we can let time decide. If Mills ever gets his device to the market, my scepticism could be disproven, because then there would be a significant supply of hydrinos for everybody to do experiments with.
            Knowing the history of Mills’ multiple announcements of near-term commercialization, the trend is on my side.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Why do you go and try and invent something. See how you like being ripped by know it alls.

          • Mylan

            Ripped? I’m not sure what you mean. The hydrino theory is far away from proven. This theory is just so far out there, it would need proof by experiments from several independent groups. I don’t say that the whole thing is a fraud, but scientist can be very wrong and still believe in what they do, fooling themselves. For years and even decades. Happens all the time. You can go on and believe it now, I will be happy to do so if it seems reasonable in the future.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Mills Intimidate?! That is a crock. He is the one being intimidated. Case in point, your post.

          • Mylan

            https://dx.doi.org/10.1038%2F35005254
            Dispute is normal in science. But you don’t sue those who dispute your scientific view.

          • optiongeek

            Hydrinos are proven by the detection of EUV continuum radiation with predicted cutoffs at 91.2nm / (n – 1)^2. Other techniques confirm hydrinos as well. It’s as proven as it can be. Read the reports.

  • Tobben Heibert

    I got a question to MFMP (of topic) if you are sure that LENR works… Why does it take you months and years to prove it?

    • Omega Z

      ->”if you are sure that __X__ works… Why does it take you months and years to prove it?”

      Where the variable ” X ” can be of a vast number of topics.

      The answer to many of which can be-

      Lack of viable theory-
      The complexity of the Topic-
      The lack of Funding-

      And many other reasons.

      • Tobben Heibert

        Smart b-s answer…. but if they have proved the fact to them self why not deliver a demo that convince others? It dosent cost much and theory can be pressented later.

        • Omega Z

          Stomps feet making demands.

          MFMP: LENR research by individual collaborators from multiple countries. Most of these individuals have day jobs. They donate their time and use their money to purchase expensive materials and equipment to build devices for these tests. They also pay for their own travel costs when joining others to do tests.

          MFMP accepts contributions and donations to help offset the cost of materials and equipement, but it falls far short of covering all costs. One should keep that in mind when asking them to provide a Demo that will have zero impact wasting their time and money. It is also not MFMP’s intent to prove anuything to us or develop a consumer product.

          MFMP’s goal is to develop a device that produces excess energy beyond error and is highly repeatable. When this goal is met, they intend to produce and provide kits to be provided to hundreds of research labs and Universities to replicate their work proving once and for all to a large group that the affect is real beyond doubt.

  • NCY

    Relying on wikipedia? Great logical fallacy you hit me with there.

  • David L

    So what is the COP? I’ve heard different things about the COP so I am confused.

    • artefact

      I think most of the numbers so far came from short term measurements (like 8 minutes or even smaler. A more exact COP should come a bit later when the now better running device is measured. I read that it is allready planned in one of the PDFs that were posted. Numbers I read are arround 100 with potential to near infinity. But as long as it is over like 20 it is good enough.

      • David L

        If that is true that is shocking. And it would be better than Rossi’s Ecat probably.

    • tlp

      My estimate is that COP is over 10000 during that “ignition off” period.

      • Axil Axil

        There was a demo video where Mills used a bomb calorimeter and got a COP of 3.

        • tlp

          That was an old proof of concept. In this video there is a minute or two period of “ignition off” and power consumption is about 20 watts. Output is about the same, but maybe a little less than with ignition on, but around 200-1000 kW.
          So the COP is over 10000.

        • artefact

          In that test they used a capsule that had to be melted first and that reduced the COP.

  • optiongeek

    It was pointed out elsewhere by an expert in plasma physics that a “self-sustaining” plasma is unknown to science. Yet we clearly see the ignition is turned off (time stamp 04:30) yet the plasma does become self-sustaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBheBH9eio&t=265

  • MyselfAndMe

    What happens to unused heat (80-90% of total generated energy in the published design)?
    Any guess as to why regular means of generating electricity aren’t even mentioned?
    With 3000K heat source efficiency of electricity generation could be extremely high – probably above 60% – instead of ~20-30% with CPV.

    • MorganMck

      Mills addressed this in the prior presentation. He basically said that with near zero fuel costs, there wasn’t a compelling reason to add the complexity and attendant points-of-failure to convert the excess heat via the Carnot cycle. So they just elected to vent it off. He has a point I think.

      • Omega Z

        ->”So they just elected to vent it off.”

        This kind of thinking always leads to disasters down the road.
        This kind of thinking lead to rivers that burned with fire.
        This kind of thinking lead cities where you could not breath.

        What shall we do with all that excess heat?

        We shall just vent it off.

        What could possibly go wrong.

        • doug marker

          “This kind of thinking always leads to disasters down the road.”

          Fact or random speculation 🙂

          Cheers
          D

          • Omega Z

            We currently produce approximately 3KW thermal to generate 1KW electric. To think changing that ratio to 100KW+ thermal to generate 1KW electric wont have consequences would be naive. We also have a history of failing to see the possible consequences until after the fact.

          • tlp

            Your figures are wrong, SunCell is 1MW thermal, 250kW electric, more when better solar panels are developed. The first prototype may be closer to your figures, but it is just a first prototype, to show to the world as quickly as possible first ever “free electricity” generator. I mean electricity from just water, which shouldn’t be possible, but it is.

          • Omega Z

            “Electricity from water which shouldn’t be possible.”

            Why not. It contains hydrogen. Also by adding some salt you can draw low voltage from it using the proper electrodes.

            Many are talking primarily about being off grid. What are you going to do with 250KW. Your back to mostly waste heat.

            Light is made up of various wavelengths. Solar cells convert only the wavelength it is designed for. Thus they will always have limited efficiency. Beyond that, you can only place a certain amount of solar cells around the reaction Mills is producing. The more you place around it, the more distance and reduced efficiency you will have.

          • doug marker

            So following this logic, the suncell is a certain disaster waiting to happen!.

            Sorry but can’t see this.

            D

        • MorganMck

          Can you be more specific about the dangers you see in venting rather than harnessing the excess heat of the SunCell. If you see there truly are foreseeable potential disasters from the current engineering, BrLP should be confronted and a satisfactory answer obtained. If not, I’m afraid you are just trafficking in FUD.

          • Omega Z

            Beijing, China and western society had no intentions of fouling the air and limiting visibility to 50 yards. It was an unintended consequence.

            Currently, we produce approximately 3KW thermal to generate 1KW electric. Even that is done at a fair distance and distribured by the grid. Suncell appears to be 100’s of kilowatts thermal per 1KW electric. Consider billions of these for homes and billions more for transporation and billions more for industry, you may find your cities suffering the heat island effect on steroids. Regardless, that amount of excess heat will create problems. We may only know how serious with 20/20 hindsight. We have a poor record with our foresight.

            Note I also considered this a problem with Rossi’s orginal E-cats when used by the masses. The peak kilowatt size required to meet their needs running 24/7 365 also created huge amounts of excess waste heat. The Quark appears to eliminate this issue. They can be activated in minutes or less and in 20 watt increments.

            It may be that Mills claims it isn’t economic to harness this heat because the approach/technique he uses is not well suited for turbine generation to begin with.

      • doug marker

        Agreed – The issue of the heat is really an engineering vs benefits challenge. No doubt some engineer will see a way to harness that wasted heat (assuming this device works as stated) and may be able to increase the efficiency. Mills problem today is to get a working device out the door so to speak, and to show a broader audience that his devices work at levels that are revolutionary. Dealing with some wasted heat can come later.

        Doug

        • MorganMck

          Well said. I see no issue with the current approach and Mills will need to keep things as simple as possible to maintain his very aggressive prototype schedule.

  • Gerard McEk

    Mill’s SunCell may generate additional energy coming from the change of hydrogen to hydrino’s, but has he ever done some proper analysis of transmutation or shifts in isotopes (of e.g. Silver) in his reactors? Is helium being formed?
    Does Mills dismiss LENR or does he see LENR as a competing technology?

  • Gerard McEk

    Mill’s SunCell may generate additional energy coming from the change of hydrogen to hydrino’s, but has he ever done some proper analysis of transmutation or shifts in isotopes (of e.g. Silver) in his reactors? Is helium being formed?
    Does Mills dismiss LENR or does he see LENR as a competing technology?

    • Teepee

      Dismisses it.

      • Epi

        No, I don´t think so. Mills is dismissing it because he was put in the same box as the LENR folks and that was a kick in the face for his reputation. But somewhere in his book he talks about fusion.

  • Zephir

    It could apply to uncertainty in his results or whatever else kind of uncertainty.

  • Omega Z

    ->”if you are sure that __X__ works… Why does it take you months and years to prove it?”

    Where the variable ” X ” can be of a vast number of topics.

    The answer to many of which can be-

    Lack of viable theory-
    The complexity of the Topic-
    The lack of Funding-

    And many other reasons.

  • David L

    I know all of you’s here are patiently waiting like me until we have a product on the market then you can post all over social media that we have entered a new age. Hahahaha

  • Axil Axil

    What will happen if the SunCell reaction is somehow produced by a Holmlid type low orbit process where a trillion trillion muons per second impact those solar cells in a 24/7/356 100% duty cycle.

    Mills is making an assumption that will soon be tested. Producing steam using a heat exchanger is a lot less sensitive than producing electric power using solid state solar cells. Time will tell.

    • doug marker

      Axil,
      You posted “What will happen if” <= note the "if" – the problem with *if* is that anyone can say it. What is needed is a base of documented research and evidence that *specifically* deals with the 'if' and doesn't leave it as open ended speculation. What ever one can say about Mills, he has at least provided a large body of documentation and research to back up what he says. Is it all true ? – that we are still seeking to learn.

      Where exactly can I read where Holmlid states he has generated atomic particles with electron orbits less that ground state ?. And does he describe the process (i.e. in the same way W&L describe their process for neutron capture. ?.

      Thanks

      Doug Marker

      • Axil Axil

        If you can search this site for “holmlid” you will find at least 100 references on his work.

        Here is one of them to get you going.

        http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/05/holmlid-olafsson-slideshow-on-ultra-dense-hydrogen-and-low-energy-nuclear-reactions-atomecology-com/

        Holmlid is a good place to start if you want to understand low electron orbits, LENR, and sub-atomic particle generation.

        see holmlid latest article here

        Leptons from decay of mesons in the laser-induced
        particle pulse from ultra-dense protium p(0)

        http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/S0218301316500853

        • doug marker

          Axil,
          Excellent and many thanks – this is very interesting. Am working through it. I know you have mentioned Rydberg state of H many times in many places. My challenge in trying to visualise it is that AFAICT Rydberg state required temperatures at very low Kelvin whereas LENR creates very high temps. It is this aspect that I am trying to better understand. It seems a contradiction.

          Cheers Doug.

          • Axil Axil

            The ability of metalized hydrogen to remain a superconductor at the operating temperatures of the SunCell is far more amazing than LENR itself. LeClair has shown that metalized water can stay together at temperatures greater than that of a supernova. This resistance to heat and pressure is produced by the magnetism of the spin waves on the surface of the metalized hydride crystal.

          • doug marker

            Axil,
            This issue of temperature and the H atoms in Rydberg state is for me a stumbling block. If we look at the DWave quantum computer we are told it only works when that suoerconducting Rydberg matter used to hold qubits, is held at close to absolute zero temp.

            It is this issue that has me thinking that the Mills process and explanation makes more sense.

            But, I do appreciate your links to Holmlid’s work.

            Thanks.

            Doug Marker.

          • Axil Axil

            This persistence of below base level electron orbitals are a stumbling block for everybody; it is near impossible to beleive, But the SunCell does show it. The electric arc forming the plasma only lasts a microsecond but the plasma maintains itself fro another 22 microseconds. This means that low orbitals stay intact for a long time after activation. The plasma maintains a high temperature that should ionize any compound but the hydride stays intact all though the high temperature plasma phase.

          • doug marker

            Axil,
            Good points, but what hydride is involved in MIlls process ? – Mills claims the silver is used as a catalyst. There is no loading of H (or even D) into silver prior to triggering the process. Am sure we agree that hydrating a lattice is required for LENR (PdD) & LENR+ (NiH).

            The water (light water) used in the MIlls process is thermalized into atomic H & O as part of the firing event. The Suncell is at room atmospheric pressure. There is no forced or other apparent hydrating of the silver.

            Cheers

            Doug Marker

          • Axil Axil

            Ken Shoulders shows what happens after arc discharge into a transition metal. The transition metal is vaporized by the arc, but it cools into micro and nanoparticles. The hydrogen produces surface plasmon polaritons. Shoulders calls them white and black EVs.

            More of Black EVs from Ken Slouders

            http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Permittivity%20Transitions.pdf

            Figure 5 and 6 on page 4 show how a white EV transforms into a black EV.

            Ken Shoulders states as follows:

            “In order to develop some reality about the appearance of white and black EVs, refer to Fig. 5 and Fig. 6 with each showing a single run of an EV toward a target at the top of the photo. These photos were taken from (1) as Fig. 4:40 and Fig. 4:42 where there is other photos showing similar affects. What can be seen is the white EV coming in from the lower side of the photo and then disappearing from camera view just before striking the target and disintegrating it. The white glob at the top is a plume of ions coming from the explosion.

            This can be validated by applying an analyzing field in the camera that produces a deflection to the left for ions and to the right for electrons. This analysis field has been applied in Fig. 6 and it can be seen that the white EV has moved to the right, signifying its emission products are electrons, while the ion plume moves to the left. The fact is, there is an omission of both electronic and optical traces during the black phase of the EV run

            This is not an artifact of the measurement method because there are many examples where multiple cameras and visual observation showed such a disappearance.

            In the black state, there is no ability to ionize gas or to excite fluorescence from the nearby dielectric materials whereas there is with a white EV.

            Unidirectional Current Flow:

            Under the conditions of white and black EV looping as stated above, there is an electrical peculiarity worth noting. The current flows in only the white EV direction thus giving the basic conditions for magnetic field generation without closing the current loop. The return charge flows around the other half of the loop without being registered in our instruments. This might be the basis for predicting something like a magnetic monopole.

            Under the conditions stated, it is possible to detect the vector potential, Ā, outside of the current loop usually used to define the vector potential habitat. This offers a communication method that is not shielded by conventional conductors because the electrons in the conductor are not excited into generating a mirror image. One must wonder what other electrons we are working with is also not excited by this unusual method of generating longitudinal emanations or potentials.”

            The black EV is produced by polariton creation.

            Of note Shoulders states:

            In the black state, there is no ability to ionize gas or to excite fluorescence from the nearby dielectric materials whereas there is with a white EV.

            From figure 5, it can be seen that the condensed vapors of the metal target take some short time to form nano-particles.

            In the Black EV state electrons are converted to polaritons when the electrons of the white EV, the infrared EMF from the spark discharge, and the condensed nano-particle combined to form these polaritons. The infrared radiation of the spark explosion helps produce the polariton plume through the action of Fano interference.

          • doug marker

            Axil,

            AS always another intriguing source of research – thanks – I did note this info in the Shoulders link – it seems it is telling us something of the EV events.

            QUOTE:

            “Many of the observations of EV phenomena are totally without explanation. It would seem that EVs live in an entirely different and bizarre world compared to ours. I have written about many of these observations over a long period of time in a scattered fashion using various interpretations but this writing will differ in that a single explanation will be used as the root cause for all such citations. In an attempt to draw together these observations under one roof of explanation, the cause for them will be focused on a single basic reason even knowing this can lead to a large error in interpretation”

            Doug

          • Axil Axil

            There has been many advances in nanoplasmonics since Ken Shoulders did his research. Ken had no idea what a polariton was; he did not know that light and matter can combine into a bose condinsate, and that condinsate can exist without limits on temperature and pressure.

            If you have some time for research, here is how nanoplasmonics has produced overunity systems for over 100 years.

            http://www.egely.hu/letoltes/Fusion-by-Pseudo-Particles-Part1.pdf
            http://www.egely.hu/letoltes/Fusion-by-Pseudo-Particles-Part2.pdf
            http://www.egely.hu/letoltes/Fusion-by-Pseudo-Particles-Part3.pdf

          • R V

            This is not a variant of LENR! The silver is not the catalyst!
            The silver is a conductive matrix that allows the catalysis and atomic hydrogen to meet. The oxide is a stable source of oxygen that allows the catalyst to be formed, which is a water molecule unattached to other water.

          • doug marker

            Thanks for the more detailed info.

            Cheers

            Doug

          • R V

            You must have missed the fact that the plasma self-sustains for minutes, not microseconds. In fact, Mills stated that under proper conditions, both the arc current and the EM Pumps can be turned off and the plasma will continue to make power indefinitely.

            And the hydrino is the simplest explanation, not some esoteric nuclear process.

          • Axil Axil

            Very Good. R V thanks for that update which is very important. Do you have a reference for that bit of info so I can hear it from Mills himself.

            It may be possible to calculate how much energy that the hydrino reaction produces per atom and match it up against the consumption of hydrogen in the SunCell.

            Can Mills shut down hydrogen flow and still produce self sustaining power production?

            These are the characteristics of the SunCell reaction that I am interested in.

          • doug marker

            From MIlls

            “a catalyst comprises a chemical or physical process with an enthalpy change equal to an integer multiple m of the potential energy of atomic hydrogen, 27.2 eV. For He+m = 2, due to its ionization reaction to He2+, and two H atoms formed from H2 by collision with a third, hot H can also act as a catalyst with m = 2 for this third H. The product is H(1/p), fractional Rydberg states of atomic hydrogen called “hydrino atoms” wherein n = 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, …, 1/p(p≤137 is an integer) replaces the well-known parameter n = integer in the Rydberg equation for hydrogen excited states.”

            Doug M

          • doug marker

            Axil, just wanted to say that I removed two references in 2 of my posts, to Rydberg state only occurring and low kelvin temp. I had mixed up my knowledge of BCE (Bose Einstein Condensate) with Rydberg state. My thinking on Rydberg state being limited to low temp was not right so I edited those 2 refs out. But, wanted to make it clear I had done so.

            Cheers Doug

          • R V

            Geez. There is no superconducting metallic hydrogen in the SunCell. Where do you get this stuff?

  • Axil Axil

    What will happen if the SunCell reaction is somehow produced by a Holmlid type low orbit process where a trillion trillion muons per second impact those solar cells in a 24/7/356 100% duty cycle.

    Mills is making an assumption that will soon be tested. Producing steam using a heat exchanger is a lot less sensitive than producing electric power using solid state solar cells. Time will tell.

    • doug marker

      Axil,
      You posted “What will happen if” <= note the "if" – the problem with *if* is that anyone can say it. What is needed is a base of documented research and evidence that *specifically* deals with the 'if' and doesn't leave it as open ended speculation. What ever one can say about Mills, he has at least provided a large body of documentation and research to back up what he says. Is it all true ? – that aspect we are mostly still seeking to understand.

      Where exactly can I read where Holmlid states he has generated atomic particles with electron orbits less that ground state ?. And does he describe the process (i.e. in the same detailed way Widom & Larsen describe their process for neutron capture at their web site ?).

      Thanks

      Doug Marker

      • Axil Axil

        If you can search this site for “holmlid” you will find at least 100 references on his work.

        Here is one of them to get you going.

        http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/05/holmlid-olafsson-slideshow-on-ultra-dense-hydrogen-and-low-energy-nuclear-reactions-atomecology-com/

        Holmlid is a good place to start if you want to understand low electron orbits, LENR, and sub-atomic particle generation.

        see holmlid latest article here

        Leptons from decay of mesons in the laser-induced
        particle pulse from ultra-dense protium p(0)

        http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/S0218301316500853

        • doug marker

          Axil,
          Excellent and many thanks – this is very interesting. Am working through it.

          Cheers Doug.

          • Axil Axil

            The ability of metalized hydrogen to remain a superconductor at the operating temperatures of the SunCell is far more amazing than LENR itself. LeClair has shown that metalized water can stay together at temperatures greater than that of a supernova. This resistance to heat and pressure is produced by the magnetism of the spin waves on the surface of the metalized hydride crystal.

          • doug marker

            Axil,

            It is this issue that has me thinking that the Mills process and explanation makes more sense.

            But, I do appreciate your links to Holmlid’s work.

            Thanks.

            Doug Marker.

          • Axil Axil

            This persistence of below base level electron orbitals are a stumbling block for everybody; it is near impossible to beleive, But the SunCell does show it. The electric arc forming the plasma only lasts a microsecond but the plasma maintains itself fro another 22 microseconds. This means that low orbitals stay intact for a long time after activation. The plasma maintains a high temperature that should ionize any compound but the hydride stays intact all though the high temperature plasma phase.

          • doug marker

            Axil,
            Good points, but what hydride is involved in MIlls process ? – Mills claims the silver is used as a catalyst. There is no loading of H (or even D) into silver prior to triggering the process. Am sure we agree that hydrating a lattice is required for LENR (PdD) & LENR+ (NiH).

            The water (light water) used in the MIlls process is thermalized into atomic H & regular O as part of the spark firing event. The Suncell is at room atmospheric pressure. There is no forced or other apparent pressure based hydrating of the silver.

            The MIlls process says that the catalyst has to be of a particular atomic structure that allows some of the H atoms (their electrons that is) to pass photon energy to the Silver (the ‘catalyst’) – the H atom that does this (in a defined quantized amount of this energy) transitions into a ‘hydrino’ state of H. The silver quickly reverts to its normal state and in doing so releases the captured energy as light in the EUV spectrum. The details at their web site document the frequency and energy levels.

            Cheers

            Doug Marker

          • Axil Axil

            Ken Shoulders shows what happens after arc discharge into a transition metal. The transition metal is vaporized by the arc, but it cools into micro and nanoparticles. The hydrogen produces surface plasmon polaritons. Shoulders calls them white and black EVs.

            More of Black EVs from Ken Slouders

            http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Permittivity%20Transitions.pdf

            Figure 5 and 6 on page 4 show how a white EV transforms into a black EV.

            Ken Shoulders states as follows:

            “In order to develop some reality about the appearance of white and black EVs, refer to Fig. 5 and Fig. 6 with each showing a single run of an EV toward a target at the top of the photo. These photos were taken from (1) as Fig. 4:40 and Fig. 4:42 where there is other photos showing similar affects. What can be seen is the white EV coming in from the lower side of the photo and then disappearing from camera view just before striking the target and disintegrating it. The white glob at the top is a plume of ions coming from the explosion.

            This can be validated by applying an analyzing field in the camera that produces a deflection to the left for ions and to the right for electrons. This analysis field has been applied in Fig. 6 and it can be seen that the white EV has moved to the right, signifying its emission products are electrons, while the ion plume moves to the left. The fact is, there is an omission of both electronic and optical traces during the black phase of the EV run

            This is not an artifact of the measurement method because there are many examples where multiple cameras and visual observation showed such a disappearance.

            In the black state, there is no ability to ionize gas or to excite fluorescence from the nearby dielectric materials whereas there is with a white EV.

            Unidirectional Current Flow:

            Under the conditions of white and black EV looping as stated above, there is an electrical peculiarity worth noting. The current flows in only the white EV direction thus giving the basic conditions for magnetic field generation without closing the current loop. The return charge flows around the other half of the loop without being registered in our instruments. This might be the basis for predicting something like a magnetic monopole.

            Under the conditions stated, it is possible to detect the vector potential, Ā, outside of the current loop usually used to define the vector potential habitat. This offers a communication method that is not shielded by conventional conductors because the electrons in the conductor are not excited into generating a mirror image. One must wonder what other electrons we are working with is also not excited by this unusual method of generating longitudinal emanations or potentials.”

            The black EV is produced by polariton creation.

            Of note Shoulders states:

            In the black state, there is no ability to ionize gas or to excite fluorescence from the nearby dielectric materials whereas there is with a white EV.

            From figure 5, it can be seen that the condensed vapors of the metal target take some short time to form nano-particles.

            In the Black EV state electrons are converted to polaritons when the electrons of the white EV, the infrared EMF from the spark discharge, and the condensed nano-particle combined to form these polaritons. The infrared radiation of the spark explosion helps produce the polariton plume through the action of Fano interference.

          • doug marker

            Axil,

            AS always another intriguing source of research – thanks – I did note this info in the Shoulders link – it seems it is telling us something of the EV events.

            QUOTE:

            “Many of the observations of EV phenomena are totally without explanation. It would seem that EVs live in an entirely different and bizarre world compared to ours. I have written about many of these observations over a long period of time in a scattered fashion using various interpretations but this writing will differ in that a single explanation will be used as the root cause for all such citations. In an attempt to draw together these observations under one roof of explanation, the cause for them will be focused on a single basic reason even knowing this can lead to a large error in interpretation”

            Doug

          • Axil Axil

            There has been many advances in nanoplasmonics since Ken Shoulders did his research. Ken had no idea what a polariton was; he did not know that light and matter can combine into a bose condinsate, and that condinsate can exist without limits on temperature and pressure.

            If you have some time for research, here is how nanoplasmonics has produced overunity systems for over 100 years.

            http://www.egely.hu/letoltes/Fusion-by-Pseudo-Particles-Part1.pdf
            http://www.egely.hu/letoltes/Fusion-by-Pseudo-Particles-Part2.pdf
            http://www.egely.hu/letoltes/Fusion-by-Pseudo-Particles-Part3.pdf

          • R V

            This is not a variant of LENR! The silver is not the catalyst!
            The silver is a conductive matrix that allows the catalysis and atomic hydrogen to meet. The oxide is a stable source of oxygen that allows the catalyst to be formed, which is a water molecule unattached to other water.

          • doug marker

            Thanks for the more detailed info.

            Cheers

            Doug

          • R V

            You must have missed the fact that the plasma self-sustains for minutes, not microseconds. In fact, Mills stated that under proper conditions, both the arc current and the EM Pumps can be turned off and the plasma will continue to make power indefinitely.

            And the hydrino is the simplest explanation, not some esoteric nuclear process.

          • Axil Axil

            Very Good. R V thanks for that update which is very important. Do you have a reference for that bit of info so I can hear it from Mills himself.

            It may be possible to calculate how much energy that the hydrino reaction produces per atom and match it up against the consumption of hydrogen in the SunCell.

            Can Mills shut down hydrogen flow and still produce self sustaining power production?

            These are the characteristics of the SunCell reaction that I am interested in.

          • doug marker

            From MIlls

            “a catalyst comprises a chemical or physical process with an enthalpy change equal to an integer multiple m of the potential energy of atomic hydrogen, 27.2 eV. For He+m = 2, due to its ionization reaction to He2+, and two H atoms formed from H2 by collision with a third, hot H can also act as a catalyst with m = 2 for this third H. The product is H(1/p), fractional Rydberg states of atomic hydrogen called “hydrino atoms” wherein n = 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, …, 1/p(p≤137 is an integer) replaces the well-known parameter n = integer in the Rydberg equation for hydrogen excited states.”

            Doug M

          • optiongeek

            The power is directly provided by the conversion of hydrogen (in the “ground state”) to H[1/4] (hydrinos in the 3rd state below ground). Think of the device as a “dark matter generator” if you will, with hydrogen as the fuel and hydrinos/dark matter as the ash. No hydrogen fuel supply means no sustaining plasma.

          • doug marker

            Axil, just wanted to say that I removed two references in 2 of my posts, to Rydberg state only occurring and low kelvin temp. I had mixed up my knowledge of BCE (Bose Einstein Condensate) with Rydberg state. My thinking on Rydberg state being limited to low temp was not right so I edited those 2 refs out. But, wanted to make it clear I had done so.

            Cheers Doug

          • R V

            Geez. There is no superconducting metallic hydrogen in the SunCell. Where do you get this stuff?

  • Mylan

    Ripped? I’m not sure what you mean. The hydrino theory is far away from proven. This theory is just so far out there, it would need proof by experiments from several independent groups. I don’t say that the whole thing is a fraud, but scientist can be very wrong and still believe in what they do, fooling themselves. For years and even decades. Happens all the time. You can go on and believe it now, I will be happy to do so if it seems reasonable in the future.

  • Mylan

    https://dx.doi.org/10.1038%2F35005254
    Dispute is normal in science. But you don’t sue those who dispute your scientific view.

  • doug marker

    Morgan,
    I know where you are coming from re this remark. I started reading MIlls claims just over 4 years ago. I am not convinced yet that it is what he claims or is commercially viable, but, the more I read, the closer that ‘seems’ to be getting.

    The really interesting work for me was Brett Holverstott’s book as at last we had a view of Mills that is very well articulated, incredibly well detailed, and by someone who watched much of the Mill’s story unfold. If I could attain half the knowledge of quantum and science in general that Holverstott shows he knows, I would be very very pleased with myself.

    The critical aspect for all our (us here) interest is to keep an open mind. But, we each have to do our own research as in the short term, it is our own self we need to convince. Convincing others is a very hard slog.

    So many eventual advances in history had to run the gauntlet of ridicule and criticism before they became accepted. And even then, in time each of those advances may have been bettered.

    So the 64,000$ question re Mill’s theories, is “has Mills come up with a better theory that will allow greater advances in science ?” – if yes, great !, if not then so be it.

    Doug Marker

  • doug marker

    Just a quick thanks to everyone on all side of the debate who are participating and taking the time to express views no matter what side they are on.

    It is open debate and questioning that help everyone get a better sense of the issues and the outcomes.

    Again, a big thanks – debating these matters really gets us to think.

    Doug

  • doug marker

    Just a quick thanks to everyone on all side of the debate who are participating and taking the time to express views no matter what side they are on.

    It is open debate and questioning that help everyone get a better sense of the issues and the outcomes.

    Again, a big thanks – debating these matters really gets us to think.

    Doug

  • SG

    I’ve followed BLP for well over a decade. My impression of them has gone up and down as they have declared success and imminent commercialization several times. I must say, however, that this times seems different. I can’t quite put my finger on why. But it does.

    I’ve never liked how Mills has often emphasized power output over energy balance. We are now hearing more discussion of energy balance. That is what matters, and what should be emphasized, assuming they have something commercially viable. The prototypes they put together also look very kludgey and high-maintenance. But I guess we can’t expect too much from a mere prototype. Mills seems confident that with few moving parts, the system will have high reliability.

    I think that perhaps they are finally getting to an important turning point for the company, after several hundreds of millions of $ of investor money. Let’s hope they pull this rabbit of their hat. But I personally don’t think it will happen by 2017. I’m in the “more like 2020” crowd right now. I’d be quite happy to be proved wrong. My guess is Mills is itching to prove his many detractors wrong. Good for him. That provides a nice incentive to push it across the finish line.

    • doug marker

      SG,
      Good assessment. I too looked at the early Suncell units – they looked *very* kludgy – also then read of the various changes they made to try to keep the catalyzing process running at a useable rate. The electrodes gave them years of trouble.

      The take home message to me was that if indeed the ‘step 1’ process of hydrino transition was real, then the ‘step 2’ engineering aspect was the next phase once Mills could prove step 1 was real. There are a lot of very smart engineers in the world who could look the engineering and manufacturing aspects. That is not Mill’s forte, and, one can imagine this is what is taking place. I am sure we have all heard of what people thought of those early, ugly, smelly, noisy peculiar devices that became horse-less carriages then evolved into today’s ‘cars’ the latest with scavenging injection, turbo-chargers, etc: etc:.

      Mills only ever had to prove his process was real and that he had an acceptable explanation. Without these it would be hard to attract the engineers and manufacturers.

      I still regard the Suncell as an awkward device and seriously cannot imagine driving a car that is powered by the device that we see on the BLP web site. BUT, this is where MIlls should and appears to be, handing it over to other clever people who can exploit the hydrino transition process (assuming it is proven to those who are getting involved).

      And, like you, I won’t hold my breath that we will see commercial ready devices in 2017. 2020 seems a bit more likely.

      Doug Marker

  • SG

    I’ve followed BLP for well over a decade. My impression of them has gone up and down as they have declared success and imminent commercialization several times. I must say, however, that this time seems different. I can’t quite put my finger on why. But it does.

    I’ve never liked how Mills has often emphasized power output over energy balance. We are now hearing more discussion of energy balance. That is what matters, and what should be emphasized, assuming they have something commercially viable. The prototypes they put together also look very kludgy and high-maintenance. But I guess we can’t expect too much from a mere prototype. Mills seems confident that with few moving parts, the system will have high reliability.

    I think that perhaps they are finally getting to an important turning point for the company, after several hundreds of millions of $ of investor money. Let’s hope they pull this rabbit out of their hat. But I personally don’t think it will happen by 2017. I’m in the “more like 2020” crowd right now. I’d be quite happy to be proven wrong. My guess is Mills is itching to prove his many detractors wrong. Good for him. That provides a nice incentive to push it across the finish line.

    • doug marker

      SG,
      Good assessment. I too looked at the early Suncell units – they looked *very* kludgy – also then read of the various changes they made to try to keep the catalyzing process running at a useable rate. The electrodes gave them years of trouble.

      The take home message to me was that if indeed the ‘step 1’ process of hydrino transition was real, then the ‘step 2’ engineering aspect was the next phase once Mills could prove step 1 was real. There are a lot of very smart engineers in the world who could look at the engineering and manufacturing aspects. That is not Mill’s forte, and, one can imagine this is what is taking place. I am sure we have all heard of what people thought of those early, ugly, smelly, noisy peculiar devices that became horse-less carriages then evolved into today’s ‘cars’ the latest with scavenging injection, turbo-chargers, etc: etc:.

      Mills only ever had to prove his process was real and that he had an acceptable explanation. Without these it would be hard to attract the engineers and manufacturers.

      I still regard the Suncell as an awkward device and seriously cannot imagine driving a car that is powered by the device that we see on the BLP web site. BUT, this is where MIlls should and appears to be, handing it over to other clever people who can exploit the hydrino transition process (assuming it is proven to those who are getting involved).

      And, like you, I won’t hold my breath that we will see commercial ready devices in 2017. 2020 seems a bit more likely.

      Doug Marker

  • tlp

    My estimate is that COP is over 10000 during that “ignition off” period.

    • Axil Axil

      There was a demo video where Mills used a bomb calorimeter and got a COP of 3.

      • tlp

        That was an old proof of concept. In this video there is a minute or two period of “ignition off” and power consumption is about 20 watts. Output is about the same, but maybe a little less than with ignition on, but around 200-1000 kW.
        So the COP is over 10000.

      • artefact

        In that test they used a capsule that had to be melted first and that reduced the COP.

  • doug marker

    Agreed – The issue of the heat is really an engineering vs benefits challenge. No doubt some engineer will see a way to harness that wasted heat (assuming this device works as stated) and may be able to increase the efficiency. Mills problem today is to get a working device out the door so to speak, and to show a broader audience that his devices work at levels that are revolutionary. Dealing with some wasted heat can come later.

    Doug

  • doug marker

    One contrarian view on the Suncell.

    Decided to add this comment about an email I received from Brian Ahern (via Peter Gluck’s Ego Out blog) where Brian expresses interest in the idea of hydrino transitions but adds serious doubts about the ability of the PVs to take the generated EUV light and convert it into electricity with todays PV devices (Photo Voltaic).

    Just worth bearing in mind that the success of the Suncell is still hotly in dispute such as Brian’s views, even if the Hydrino theory proves correct. It is also worth considering that the Suncell alone is just one potential application of a successful hydrino transition process. Brett Holverstott in his book about Hydrino energy, details the chemical industry potential for new materials based on utilizing hydrinos in (IIRC) polymers.

    The heart of Brian Ahern’s issues with the Suncell are quoted below. Brian can be very outspoken however what he has to add deserves consideration but it doesn’t mean he has it all right – science & technology are a moving target …

    QUOTE: (exactly as he wrote it – typos and all)

    “High efficiency solar cells are metastable and the high energy photons will quickly homogenize the local chemistry and quench the conversion efficiency. This is why it took decades to develop the Blue LED. The high energy blue photons were breaking bonds and degrading operation. Higher frequency photons are much more challenging and are unlikely impossible to operate more that one minute.

    I worked in the solar cell Group at MIT Lincoln Labs in 1979 where they had achieved the world’s record with tandem cells. These cells were degraded by near UV and were not suitable for space applications.

    There are no cells that can survive 27 eV radiation. Mills will avoid any measurements until he secures his next round of funding. At that time he will likely announce a new and better scheme due in 2019!
    The foregoing does not prelude the existence or viability of Hydrinos. It simply identifies a ridiculous prescription for their use.”

    • artefact

      The light does not get directly to the PV cells but it heats a material that then emits blackbody radiation that normal PV cells are made for.

    • R V

      He’s simply full of misunderstandings. Mr. Ahern simply has his facts wrong. I mean, some may be true, but are irrelevant to Mills’ device.

      First, he seems not to understand that the spectrum the cells absorb is not UV but IR/visible. Second, he ignores that the cells are being developed from scratch and tailored to match the spectrum using compound semiconductors, not existing commercial cells, and certainly not 1979 technology. Thirdly, the cells do not see 27ev radiation. Ahern seems confused about the hydrino transition process and is conflating that with the SunCell design. Lastly, Mills and his team, as well as his partners are constantly taking data and refining this device and process, he is not ‘avoiding’ measurements.

      • Axil Axil

        What I don’t understand about the hydrino theory is how electron orbits can produce a temperature in a plasma that is equal to that of the Sun’s surface.

        Every atom including hydrogen should be totally ionized in an environmental condition where the electrons are completely dissociated from the atom.

        How are the hydrino atom orbitals protected from solar level heat? This does not make sense to me. Please explain.

        • doug marker

          Mills spells out the energy transfers in detail at the BLP site. Brett Holverstott spells it out in great detail in his book.

          Is there any reason not to read their explanations ?. – I don’t ‘love’ Mills but did bother to read the details.

          I am puzzled at complex questions that have clear answers but the questioner declines to look at where the answers are. These are moments I think we live in a weird world.

          Cheers

          Doug

      • Axil Axil

        What is the maximum temperature limit on the hydrino theory?

  • doug marker

    One contrarian view on the Suncell.

    Decided to add this comment about an email I received from Brian Ahern (via Peter Gluck’s Ego Out blog mailing list) where Brian expresses interest in the idea of hydrino transitions but adds serious doubts about the ability of the PVs to take the generated EUV light and convert it into electricity with todays PV devices (Photo Voltaic).

    Just worth bearing in mind that the success of the Suncell is still hotly in dispute such as in Brian’s views, even if the Hydrino theory proves correct. It is also worth considering that the Suncell alone is just one potential application of a successful hydrino transition process. Brett Holverstott in his book about Hydrino energy, details the chemical industry potential for new materials based on utilizing hydrinos in (IIRC) polymers. Brett described what he saw as the potential for nearly indestructible new materials. Also want to add that what Brian is describing as reasons the Suncell won’t work, are in essence ‘engineering’ issues. So, there is the expectation that just as it took time to engineer blue lasers, it may take time to engineer the PVs required for the conditions present in the MIlls Suncell.

    The heart of Brian Ahern’s issues with the Suncell are quoted below. Brian can be very outspoken however what he has to add deserves consideration but it doesn’t mean he has it all right – science & technology are a moving target …

    QUOTE: (exactly as he wrote it – typos and all)

    “High efficiency solar cells are metastable and the high energy photons will quickly homogenize the local chemistry and quench the conversion efficiency. This is why it took decades to develop the Blue LED. The high energy blue photons were breaking bonds and degrading operation. Higher frequency photons are much more challenging and are unlikely impossible to operate more that one minute.

    I worked in the solar cell Group at MIT Lincoln Labs in 1979 where they had achieved the world’s record with tandem cells. These cells were degraded by near UV and were not suitable for space applications.

    There are no cells that can survive 27 eV radiation. Mills will avoid any measurements until he secures his next round of funding. At that time he will likely announce a new and better scheme due in 2019!
    The foregoing does not prelude the existence or viability of Hydrinos. It simply identifies a ridiculous prescription for their use.”

    • artefact

      The light does not get directly to the PV cells but it heats a material that then emits blackbody radiation that normal PV cells are made for.

    • MorganMck

      Wow, if Ahern is right and Mills knows this won’t actually work with existing PV technology (or should have known) and takes investors money projecting that it will work, Mills is in serious trouble (or at least could be). It seems like it would not be that difficult to test the PVs under expected reactor conditions to determine their viability. Do you know if this has been done. If not, why not? In any case, Ahern has leveled serious charges here that go well beyond scientific/engineering opinion. If I were a potential investor, I would demand the aforementioned proof-of-concept tests on the PVs before funding.

      • doug marker

        My understanding re Mills current industry days is to attract manufacturers of PVs to enter into agreements to design PVs that can be deployed in the Suncell. They would (one imagines) also be used to seek interest from other manufacturers who might identify other types of opportunity. I don’t believe MIlls is only addressing investors at these events or that he is just telling them (investors vs manufacturers) that it is all a done deal. To be fair, Mills only has to get the energy generation process working and let other experts productize it.

        Investors help with research and go-to-market funding. Manufacturers and their engineers look at the opportunity to expand their own businesses into new markets.

        Re the blackbody radiation in a Suncell, I think artefact (see nearby post) has the correct answer re shielding the PVs from direct interaction with the plasma. The Suncell diagrams show this shield.

        Re the PVs – taken from one of the presentations given at the last BLP event. *Clearly* a work-in-progress. The timelines (as they usually are for new technology), are optimistic at best …

        ” Masimo Semiconductor’s Head of Business Development and New Product Commercialization Programs Brad Siskavich reported on the timeline to a commercial photovoltaic converter comprising a denser receiver array of concentrator multijunction photovoltaic cells projected to coincide with the SunCell® light source development to achieve the field test unit in the first half of 2017.”

        Cheers Doug

        • MorganMck

          You paint much more uncertainty into the prototype design than I saw in Mill’s slides. Also Mills mentions Commercial CPVs in his presentation which to a reasonable viewer does not mean futures. He is selling near-term viability.

          Unless suitable COTS CPVs exist for the current SunCell application, I don’t see how BrLP could defend a 1H2017 prototype and 2H2017 Field Trial schedule as anywhere near realistic (Even though both you and I know it is not realistic). Unless he is telling investors something different in private sessions, I also think Mills is hanging out there legally unless the CPV are current COTS..

          I do believe that there can (and will if SunCell is proven viable) be substantial improvements in CPV efficiency as most solar PV R&D has gone into standard solar PVs and would shift somewhat to CPVs. Nonetheless, I think MIlls has as much as indicated that a base SunCell can be built with existing technology. I will know more when I actually see the video including the Q&A.

          • doug marker

            Fair comments – like you I believe there is a high level of optimism as to target dates. My background in industry tells me loud and clear that reality always bites and dates slip. That is especially so for ground breaking new technology/science.

            However I still come back to the fact that Mills doesn’t need to have *all* the answers – to expect him to spell out in intricate detail how to engineer every aspect of his creation is unrealistic. Yes he needs to show confidence and yes he has the right to speak optimistically.

            The absolute reality is he only needs to show the core principle is sound and leave it to the engineering geniuses (genii ?, Genie(s) ? 🙂 ) to productize the process.

            Cheers

            Doug

      • Epi

        This is not the case. On of the involved companies who had a speaker at the demonstration day was from Masimo semiconductor. If they say this would work than I would trust them.

        • MorganMck

          I saw the Masimo slides. I wonder if Ahern did. Its looks like maybe they are planning to start with a less efficient model CPV and upgrade in stages, perhaps ultimately to CPV pot yet on the market. This was in OptionGeek’s commentary from his recollection of their remarks. Perhaps the video will illuminates things further, especially if this issue was brought up in Q&A.

          I’m beginning to losing respect for Ahern as he either didn’t do much research before he shot his mouth off or he is letting a conflict of interest get the best of him.

          • doug marker

            Morgan,
            Your thoughts about Mr Ahern are not unique.

            I was willing to post his comments as a contrarian view only because he did once have notable credibility and reading counter views can be helpful in ones own analysis and research.

            I too doubt just how much of Mills work Mr Ahern has looked into.

            Doug

      • R V

        Nonsense, Ahern is completely wrong and misinformed. Even if the CPV cells don’t work as well as planned, there is always the backup of coupling the SunCell as a heat source to a standard closed cycle generator.

      • Axil Axil

        Holmlid has an alternate theory about how electron orbitals are relaxed below base levels. In his theory, there are trillions of muons produced by the electron lowering reaction.

        If Holmlid is right about what is going on, then any solid state power production process will fail.

        If the solar cell conversion works then Mills theory is right, it solar cell power conversion does not work, then Holmlid’s theory is right.

        Here are Holmlid’s ideas and research

        http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/S0218301316500853e

    • R V

      He’s simply full of misunderstandings. Mr. Ahern simply has his facts wrong. I mean, some may be true, but are irrelevant to Mills’ device.

      First, he seems not to understand that the spectrum the cells absorb is not UV but IR/visible. Second, he ignores that the cells are being developed from scratch and tailored to match the spectrum using compound semiconductors, not existing commercial cells, and certainly not 1979 technology. Thirdly, the cells do not see 27ev radiation. Ahern seems confused about the hydrino transition process and is conflating that with the SunCell design. Lastly, Mills and his team, as well as his partners are constantly taking data and refining this device and process, he is not ‘avoiding’ measurements.

      • Axil Axil

        What I don’t understand about the hydrino theory is how electron orbits can produce a temperature in a plasma that is equal to that of the Sun’s surface.

        Every atom including hydrogen should be totally ionized in an environmental condition where the electrons are completely dissociated from the atom.

        How are the hydrino atom orbitals protected from solar level heat? This does not make sense to me. Please explain.

        • enantiomer2000

          Axil has an interesting question and it is one that I had never considered before.

          • doug marker

            It is a pity he doesn’t ask the person who can answer it.

            Those of us following this story are not BLP technical sales staff. But some of us are able to tickle our keyboards just enough to get to where these complex questions are answered, repeadedly and in great detail. 😉

            Cheers Doug

        • Eric Ashworth

          Eric
          Reply to Axil Axil. What I don’t understand.m My none academic explanation of producing light is that to produce light and this includes that of the sun/electrical. All that is required is to generate a vacuum. Remembering that there is no such thing as empty space. Consequently, if an empty space can be produced, dependent upon the degree of it you will produce either heat/light. To produce a vacuum you need a transition to occur. Positive and negative are opposite states with regards geometrical areas of activity. Negative I consider to be a volume state whereas positive to be a state of size. Volume can always encapsulate a size but size can never encapsulate a volume. Gravity is neither volume or size thereby it is not a potential but a static of a potential i.e. it maintains a potential depending upon what it is controlling. Structure depends upon gravity to exist. When positive and negative connect the negative structure of volume shrinks and the positive structure of size expands, this is neutralization. It’s the negative that shrinks that produces the light/heat, not by giving out but by pulling in from the surrounding empty space, which is not empty. This sucking in creates a state of gravitational chaos which produces energy, this being a transition from a static negative state to a mobile positive state and then back to a static negative state. The hydrogen atom as stated shrinks, the electron falls into a lower orbit becoming a stable structure named a hydrino. This transition creates a manufactured vacuum from which light is produced. No doubt it could be said passive dark matter becomes active light matter that transitions back to passive dark matter.

        • doug marker

          Mills spells out the energy transfers in detail at the BLP site. Brett Holverstott spells it out in great detail in his book.

          Is there any reason not to read their explanations ?. – I don’t ‘love’ Mills but did bother to read the details.

          I am puzzled at complex questions that have clear answers but the questioner declines to look at where the answers are. These are moments I think we live in a weird world.

          Cheers

          Doug

      • Axil Axil

        What is the maximum temperature limit on the hydrino theory?

  • doug marker

    My understanding re Mills current industry days is to attract manufacturers of PVs to enter into agreements to design PVs that can be deployed in the Suncell. They would (one imagines) also be used to seek interest from other manufacturers who might identify other types of opportunity. I don’t believe MIlls is only addressing investors at these events or that he is just telling them (investors vs manufacturers) that it is all a done deal. To be fair, Mills only has to get the energy generation process working and let other experts productize it.

    Investors help with research and go-to-market funding. Manufacturers and their engineers look at the opportunity to expand their own businesses into new markets.

    Re the blackbody radiation in a Suncell, I think artefact (see nearby post) has the correct answer re shielding the PVs from direct interaction with the plasma. The Suncell diagrams show this shield.

    Cheers Doug

  • Epi

    This is not the case. On of the involved companies who had a speaker at the demonstration day was from Masimo semiconductor. If they say this would work than I would trust them.

  • R V

    Nonsense, Ahern is completely wrong and misinformed. Even if the CPV cells don’t work as well as planned, there is always the backup of coupling the SunCell as a heat source to a standard closed cycle generator.

  • R V

    The concept of COP is usually is only used by free energy types. One does not speak of the COP of natural gas. Neither does one need the concept for the hydrino based energy as the hydrino is a valid energy source.

  • David L

    If this thing really does produce a very high COP once it hits the market how long would it take to see product prices cut in half?

    • enantiomer2000

      BrLP plans on leasing the tech so I don’t think this applies. They will basically have a monopoly so I expect there to be no competition for a long time. Probably at least 10 years in markets that respect patent law.

    • Michael W Wolf

      They are going to lease them last I heard.

  • doug marker

    Morgan,
    Your thoughts about Mr Ahern is not unique.

    I was willing to post his comments as a contrarian view only because he did once have notable credibility and reading counter views can be helpful in ones own analysis and research.

    I too doubt just how much of Mills work Mr Ahern has looked into.

    Doug

  • doug marker

    Fair comments – like you I believe there is a high level of optimism as to target dates. My background in industry tells me loud and clear that really always bites and dates slip. That is especially so for ground breaking new technology/science.

    However I still come back to the fact that Mills doesn’t need to have *all* the answers – to expect him to spell out in intricate detail how to engineer every aspect of his creation is unrealistic. Yes he needs to show confidence and yes he has the right to speak optimistically.

    The absolute reality is he only needs to show the core principle is sound and leave it to the engineering geniuses (genii ?, Genie(s) ? 🙂 ) to productize the process.

    Cheers

    Doug

  • nferguso

    Let’s presume that Dr. Mills reactor will be made to work as described, efficiently and reliably. Then with respect to its commercialization by BrLP I have a hypothesis to suggest: the only commercial value BrLP will find in the SunCell will be in the PVC’s. There is no sizable value (Gatesian fortunes for the investors) to the reactor or the chemical reaction so far as BrLP investors are concerned. There will be no substantial IP value to the reaction itself or to the manufacture or licensing of the reactors. This hypothesis is based on the following points.
    1. It doesn’t look like there is a protectable industrial secret. Once the reactor is publicly, incontrovertibly proven to work, any secret material or process will almost immediately be discovered.
    2. In almost every country in the world, patents to the reaction itself will be worthless. Prior art claims will be accepted by self-serving courts no matter how tangential, or arguably applicable patents will be said to have expired, or national governments will simply expropriate the IP as a matter of public policy, perhaps tossing BrLP a few billion (or million, or hands full of) dollars as a consolation prize. Or the IP will simply be stolen, like China has mostly stolen software IP for decades. (One exception might be the molten liquid electrode arrangement, but does anyone know if that arrangement is already used in industry, even if only in a vaguely similar way?)
    3. The reactor assemblies can, per Dr. Mills, be manufactured very cheaply. They are a fraction of the cost of the PVC’s. Scores of manufacturers will spring up almost instantly once the secret is out. BrLP will have as much success going after them as Eli Whitney had chasing pirate cotton gin makers or Thomas Edison had attacking Hollywood appropriaters of his moving picture equipment designs.
    4. The IP for CPVC’s strikes me as (1) better established, and (2) easier to enforce, since sophisticated manufacturing facilities are required.
    It looks to me that although it is very important that the reactor be made efficient and reliable, commercially it is critically important that BrLP has advantageous partnerships with CPVC producers that will enable them to share handsomely in the profits of CPVC sales.
    And FWIW, I offer another related hypothesis: there may be no substantial commercial value to BrLP in its SunCell for stationary applications at all.

    • MorganMck

      Why would Mills proceed if he did not think that he had IP protection through patents or trade secrets? Acording to OptionGeek’s account of the meeting Mills was asked about IP protection and said they had a lot of patent protection in process to protect their IP. Do you know something he does not?

      • nferguso

        Hi. My hypothesis presumes a what-if: the reactor is demonstrated indisputably to work, say by verified delivery of products to customers. Rossi has not done this, so his actions are irrelevant to my hypothesis. One point I made is that Whitney and Edison also thought they had a lot of patent protection. They were wrong. For a discovery of this nature, and so momentous, IP rights for Mills would mostly evaporate. Supporting evidence: the huge emphasis BrLP puts on the CPVC’s. They add nothing to the fundamental value of the invention and could be trivially replaced with heat exchanger-steam turbine generators to perform the same function. If instead BrLP shortly claims that problems with CPVC development will delay reactor delivery, to me that is an indicator that they have doubts about the IP value of the reactor (or that the reactor just doesn’t work, God forbid).

    • Axil Axil

      The reactor developer will devote most of his time and money into protecting his IP. This is what Rossi is doing now. Investor capital will mostly go into lawyers pockets. Any new high profit tech will follow the same legal road.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone_patent_wars

  • doug marker

    It is a pity he doesn’t ask the person who can answer it.

    Those of us following this story are not BLP technical sales staff. But some of us are able to tickle our keyboards just enough to get to where these complex questions are answered, repeadedly and in great detail. 😉

    Cheers Doug

  • David L

    Do you’s think Brilliant Light Power should have the ability to have a monopoly on this technology? And if BLP does in fact have a monopoly over it, he just might become the first or second trillionare.

    • tlp

      I think Dr. Mills deserves to have a monopoly, at least for some time, for all that downplay. But eventually competition is welcome. Also maybe Rossi could compete with his QuarkX.

      • David L

        Do you really think Rossi can compete if BLP has a COP of 10,000?

        • tlp

          COP is not so important if it is good enough, lets say over 20 or so. And that (over) 10000 COP was in self sustain mode, we don’t know yet how much that can be used compared to normal mode. Rossi has also very high COP in self sustain mode.

    • doug marker

      How about we see the thing work *then* waste words and space arguing our biases as to control of it.

      Am assuming you do realise that the world per se does not accept the idea even works!

      Cheers DSM

      • tlp

        We have seen it works, I mean you and me and maybe a couple of thousand others (over 2000 have seen the YouTube video, but probably many don’t believe what they see), but over 7 billion people have not seen or know anything about this.
        Early next year when it works totally off the grid more people may be able to see it works.

        • doug marker

          Tip
          Yes, but it is amusing how some of us want to debate which university our new baby should go to just at the time Baby is showing us it can walk. 🙂

  • David L

    Do you’s think Brilliant Light Power should have the ability to have a monopoly on this technology? And if BLP does in fact have a monopoly over it, he just might become the first or second trillionare.

    • tlp

      I think Dr. Mills deserves to have a monopoly, at least for some time, for all that downplay. But eventually competition is welcome. Also maybe Rossi could compete with his QuarkX.

      • David L

        Do you really think Rossi can compete if BLP has a COP of 10,000?

        • tlp

          COP is not so important if it is good enough, lets say over 20 or so. And that (over) 10000 COP was in self sustain mode, we don’t know yet how much that can be used compared to normal mode. Rossi has also very high COP in self sustain mode.

    • doug marker

      How about we see the thing work *then* waste words and space arguing our biases as to control of it.

      Am assuming you do realise that the world per se does not accept the idea even works!

      Cheers DSM

      • tlp

        We have seen it works, I mean you and me and maybe a couple of thousand others (over 2000 have seen the YouTube video, but probably many don’t believe what they see), but over 7 billion people have not seen or know anything about this.
        Early next year when it works totally off the grid more people may be able to see it works.

        • doug marker

          Tip
          Yes, but it is amusing how some of us want to debate which university our new baby should go to just at the time Baby is showing us it can walk. 🙂

  • radvar

    Maybe he wants to be a prophet as well as make a profit.

  • Axil Axil

    A turbine generator would be ideal for the SunCell. The dome could act as a heat exchanger that extracts the phase change heat from silver vapor that converts silver vapor to a liquid again.

    CO2 could be used to produce energy at very high efficiencies (way over 90%)

    • Fyodor

      I hope that I’m wrong but I think that this is an indication that he’s just trying to stretch out the maximum amount of time before he could be expected to produce a product. Saying that it needs to be a self-contained electrical device means that he can spend three years collecting investment money developing the solar cells. Whereas someone who actually had a working magical solar radiation generator would be getting rich selling it to power plants to make steam.

      • Axil Axil

        The efficiency that those solar cells will produce is a meger 30%. Another patent could be submitted that would produce power 3 times more efficiently than what Mills can offer.

        • tlp

          I’m quite sure that Mills has patented also other means to produce electricity. Initially they are developing 10kW, 100kW and 250kW machines, and CPV panels are the fastest to market in this power range. Small CO2 turbines are not yet feasible products, and at least integrating those takes more that three months. Mills plans continue up to “10MWs” where that s means tens of megawatts. In those power ranges other means comes to play.
          I think the name SunCell is not from those solar panels but from that “cellurar sun” concept, everybody should have their own “mini sun”.

      • tlp

        Jan 2017 is less than three months away, not three years.

  • Axil Axil

    A turbine generator would be ideal for the SunCell. The dome could act as a heat exchanger that extracts the phase change heat from silver vapor that converts silver vapor to a liquid again.

    CO2 could be used to produce energy at very high efficiencies (way over 90%)

    Efficiency = 1 – (​200 K /2435 K ) = 92%

    • Fyodor

      I hope that I’m wrong but I think that this is an indication that he’s just trying to stretch out the maximum amount of time before he could be expected to produce a product. Saying that it needs to be a self-contained electrical device means that he can spend three years collecting investment money developing the solar cells. Whereas someone who actually had a working magical solar radiation generator would be getting rich selling it to power plants to make steam.

      • Axil Axil

        The efficiency that those solar cells will produce is a meger 30%. Another patent could be submitted that would produce power 3 times more efficiently than what Mills can offer.

        • tlp

          I’m quite sure that Mills has patented also other means to produce electricity. Initially they are developing 10kW, 100kW and 250kW machines, and CPV panels are the fastest to market in this power range. Small CO2 turbines are not yet feasible products, and at least integrating those takes more that three months. Mills plans continue up to “10MWs” where that s means tens of megawatts. In those power ranges other means comes to play.
          I think the name SunCell is not from those solar panels but from that “cellular sun” concept, everybody should have their own “mini sun”.

          About those mini CO2 turbines, I think this is the state or the art now, claiming about 50% efficiency and 10MW power:
          http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a20359/ge-minirotor-co2-powered-turbine/

      • tlp

        Jan 2017 is less than three months away, not three years.

  • Fyodor

    They say that they’ve had these things running for long periods of time-I take it that have not published or given out any kind of energy balance information from their tests.

    • tlp

      http://brilliantlightpower.com/validation-reports/
      http://www.brilliantlightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/presentations/PMJansson-BrLPIndustryDay-102616.pdf

      These independent validations were made half a year ago. That time the machine was not able to survive more than half an hour before tungsten electrodes or some other place melted.
      Just recently they have built this machine using graphitized carbon for those hot parts, and eliminated electrodes by just using those already melted silver streams as electrodes.
      So now it works several hours, they just stop it during the night because I think it still needs constant baby sitting as controls and safety features are not yet finalized.
      Tomorrow the video of the Industry Day event should be ready, so we hear more details.

  • Fyodor

    They say that they’ve had these things running for long periods of time-I take it that have not published or given out any kind of energy balance information from their tests.

    • tlp

      http://brilliantlightpower.com/validation-reports/
      http://www.brilliantlightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/presentations/PMJansson-BrLPIndustryDay-102616.pdf

      These independent validations were made half a year ago. That time the machine was not able to survive more than half an hour before tungsten electrodes or some other place melted.
      Just recently they have built this machine using graphitized carbon for those hot parts, and eliminated electrodes by just using those already melted silver streams as electrodes.
      So now it works several hours, they just stop it during the night because I think it still needs constant baby sitting as controls and safety features are not yet finalized.
      Tomorrow the video of the Industry Day event should be ready, so we hear more details.

  • Mike

    I have probably missed something obvious, but where does the energy for the SunCell come from, I.e. what is the fuel source?

    Assuming it’s not chemical, is there an underlying fusion or fission process like with lenr?

    • optiongeek

      Easiest way to think about it: the reactor “burns” ordinary hydrogen into an ash composed of hydrinos (a.k.a. dark matter). Di-hydrino gas is extremely stable and simply floats through the atmosphere and escapes into space. “Burning” is inaccurate since the reaction isn’t chemical, but a novel catalytic reduction predicted by Mills’ theory. The reaction is confirmed by various techniques, chiefly the detection of EUV continuum radiation with predicted cutoffs.

      • Mike

        Thanks all. So the fuel is hydrogen. I’ll talk to the scientists at my work about the hydrino theory, but for now I’m happy to consider it similar to fission.

        Love to get hold of one of these and measure it’s emissions and radiation.

        Is it possible that the process is stripping off neutrons from hydrogen atoms, resulting in smaller/lighter hydrogen atoms?

        Be interesting to see if blp have the same regulatory issues as the ecat devices, or if they get an easier path. They have been avoiding the “nuclear” moniker to date.

        • tlp

          There is no neutrons in hydrogen atoms. Deuterium has, and there might some deuterium atoms also be there, about 0.015%.
          But hydrogen becomes hydrinos, which are smaller/lighter hydrogen atoms. And those few deuterium atoms becomes deuterinos, still holding that neutron, but otherwise similar to hydrinos.
          There is no regulatory issues, as this is not nuclear process.

        • doug marker

          Can’t see ant fission or fusion in Mills process. It is all about obtaining more energy from an H electron than previously believed possible.

          The core of opposition to Mills theories is from Scientists who have not been able to agree or acknowledge that H electron orbitals can or will drop below ground level. It is that simple.

          Cheers Doug M

    • Axil Axil

      R Mills tells us that the power density of the SunCell reaction comes from a volume of a tea cup. A few million watts of power inside a tea cup tells us something important. Such power density cannot come from a chemical source, the source of this huge power density must come from the nucleus.

      The recent demonstration of self sustained reaction that lasts for minutes adds to the evidence that the power cannot be a chemical source. The amount of gaseous chemical combustion material in a tea cup cannot sustain a power density of megawatts for minutes on end. Such huge energy must come from the nucleus.

      New chemical based fuel cannot get into the plasma ball to feed the reaction. Once the plasma process starts, the zone of plasma at 7000K cannot be penetrated by any new material inflow.

      The success of the SunCell is undercutting what Mills is saying produces the energy coming from the SunCell. As the SunCell grows in strength and power density, Mills theory is reduced in believability in like proportions.

      • tlp

        From Dr. Mills: (to a question about deuterium tests)
        “We have run hydrogen and deuterium in the SunCell. Within experimental
        variation, the power is the same. We are working on analytical tests and
        will have a paper as soon as we are finished.

        One thing for sure, the switch of the nucleus from a proton to a deuteron
        is an infallible method to prove that the reaction is not a nuclear one,
        rather it is chemical.

        Cold fusion (A.K.A. LENR) is not theoretically possible.”

        • Axil Axil

          As the SunCell operates for longer periods of time, the spectral line of helium will begin to appear in the light produced by the SunCell.

          The power density that is apparent in the Sun Cell cannot come from chemical means.

          I wanted to assume the worst case condition to determine through the use of the ideal gas law how many hydrogen atoms participate in the hydrino reaction within the plasma ball. If a vacuum is assumed, then not many hydrino atoms can transfer their energy of reduced orbitals to the plasma reaction. The hydrino carries just tens of electron volts when a hydrino is formed and then from that point does not contribute to the energy density accounting.

          How many vacuum constrained hydrinos can keep a two megawatt plasma reaction going for two minutes?

          In the vacuum of space, the space in the core of the galaxy. the density of hydrogen is 1000 hydrogen atoms per CC in the absolute zero cold temperature of space. That means that in teacup volume 150 cc there would be (150) (1000) = 150,000 hydrogen atoms producing energy in the best case.

          If that volume is heated to 7000K, the number of hydrinos in that volume is greatly reduced. Something about the energy density produced by the SunCell and the hydrino theory does not add up.

          Can anyone get things to add up and explain to me what I am missing?

          • tlp

            You are missing the thing that hydrogen is added all the time to the reaction. And it not just that two minute period, about the same plasma is there all the time, several hours.
            I think you have those figures a bit wrong, hydrino reactions are some hundreds, not tens eVs, total power is not 2 MW but around 1 MW.

          • Axil Axil

            A megawatt hour is 2.246942291e+28 electron volts

            The self sustain lasts for 100 seconds so that means
            2.246942291e+26 electron volts are required.

            if the hydrino produces a 1000 electron volts

            then 2.246942291e+23 hydrogen atoms are needed to feed the plasma.

            A mole of hydrogen atoms contains 6.02 X 10e+23 atoms

            In order for the feed of hydrogen to meet the power density needs, then hydrogen must be feed into the SunCell at 2.246942291e+21 atoms a second more or less.

          • tlp

            Is that about half milligram? Should be no broblem.

          • Axil Axil

            Because the hydrogen is in a high vacuum, can that much hydrogen fit inside the vacuum chamber and still maintain such a high vacuum?

            The vacuum is indeed high where hydrogen atoms are few and far between because the extreme temperature of the gas at 7000K.

          • tlp

            They don’t need to fit there together, as it is continuous process.

          • Axil Axil

            If the vacuum is 10e-6 bar and the temperature is 10,000K then the size of the container that will hold a mole of gas is increased by a factor of 10e10.

            The hydrogen needed to produce the reaction would fit into .00022 or 2.2e-4 letters at one bar at room temperature. But the volume needed to hold that hydrogen at 1 millionth of a bar at 10000K is

            (2.2e-4) (10e10) or 10e6 litre.

            In english, that is a million litres or the gas volume of a blimp.

          • Axil Axil

            In Mills’ new video, Mills says that he is getting 5 megawatts of light power.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhIoDxjaibQ&index=3&list=PLw1e-SwMe6eJf4Rr32w2UybIWOJ2cODEQ about 22:00 in.

            But latter on, Mills said that the internal hydrogen pressure of the SunCell is 10 bar.

          • tlp

            Good that you are listening to Mills and learning. I remember hearing that figure also. But anyway, it is a continuous, maybe not yet so smooth process. I understood 5MW was a peek power in one of their tests.

          • Axil Axil

            Mills seems to be saying that the hydrino magically leaves the pressure vessel as dark matter.

            For the sake of science, Mills needs to prove this conjecture, it is hard to beleive.

            I still think that the hydrogen is transmuted to other isotopes of silver and the like.

          • tlp

            Mills has proved many times that his experiments produce hydrinos. He has many different ways to prove that, explained on his papers. He said in the video that they have done these measurements for this latest SunCell proto also, but of course have not have time to write a paper of that yet.

        • Michael W Wolf

          I’ve often thought that the acronym LENR was too specific for an unknown process. It should mean “Low Energy Nano Reactions” or something less specific than nuclear.

    • The energy comes from the resonant transfer of energy from the H electron to the HOH electron. The H electron then falls to a lower more stable level H1/4 and the HOH electron now at a higher unstable level gives of the energy as UV light. This is why the UV is used to heat a blackbody radiator dome which converts it into the whole light spectrum for CPV cells. Nice and simple – its just taken Mills years to get a fast reaction as the ionisation energy from the UV pushes the reactants apart and they need to be together for the resonant transfer to work – the high arc currant achieves that.

  • Axil Axil

    R Mills tells us that the power density of the SunCell reaction comes from a volume of a tea cup. A few million watts of power inside a tea cup tells us something important. Such power density cannot come from a chemical source, the source of this huge power density must come from the nucleus.

    The recent demonstration of self sustained reaction that lasts for minutes adds to the evidence that the power cannot be a chemical source. The amount of gaseous chemical combustion material in a tea cup cannot sustain a power density of megawatts for minutes on end. Such huge energy must come from the nucleus.

    New chemical based fuel cannot get into the plasma ball to feed the reaction. Once the plasma process starts, the zone of plasma at 7000K cannot be penetrated by any new material inflow.

    The success of the SunCell is undercutting what Mills is saying produces the energy coming from the SunCell. As the SunCell grows in strength and power density, Mills theory is reduced in believability in like proportions.

    • tlp

      From Dr. Mills: (to a question about deuterium tests)
      “We have run hydrogen and deuterium in the SunCell. Within experimental
      variation, the power is the same. We are working on analytical tests and
      will have a paper as soon as we are finished.

      One thing for sure, the switch of the nucleus from a proton to a deuteron
      is an infallible method to prove that the reaction is not a nuclear one,
      rather it is chemical.

      Cold fusion (A.K.A. LENR) is not theoretically possible.”

      • Axil Axil

        As the SunCell operates for longer periods of time, the spectral line of helium will begin to appear in the light produced by the SunCell.

        The power density that is apparent in the Sun Cell cannot come from chemical means.

        I wanted to assume the worst case condition to determine through the use of the ideal gas law how many hydrogen atoms participate in the hydrino reaction within the plasma ball. If a vacuum is assumed, then not many hydrino atoms can transfer their energy of reduced orbitals to the plasma reaction. The hydrino carries just tens of electron volts when a hydrino is formed and then from that point does not contribute to the energy density accounting.

        How many vacuum constrained hydrinos can keep a two megawatt plasma reaction going for two minutes?

        In the vacuum of space, the space in the core of the galaxy. the density of hydrogen is 1000 hydrogen atoms per CC in the absolute zero cold temperature of space. That means that in teacup volume 150 cc there would be (150) (1000) = 150,000 hydrogen atoms producing energy in the best case.

        If that volume is heated to 7000K, the number of hydrinos in that volume is greatly reduced. Something about the energy density produced by the SunCell and the hydrino theory does not add up.

        Can anyone get things to add up and explain to me what I am missing?

        • tlp

          You are missing the thing that hydrogen is added all the time to the reaction. And it not just that two minute period, about the same plasma is there all the time, several hours.
          I think you have those figures a bit wrong, hydrino reactions are some hundreds, not tens eVs, total power is not 2 MW but around 1 MW.

          • Axil Axil

            A megawatt hour is 2.246942291e+28 electron volts

            The self sustain lasts for 100 seconds so that means
            2.246942291e+26 electron volts are required.

            if the hydrino produces a 1000 electron volts

            then 2.246942291e+23 hydrogen atoms are needed to feed the plasma.

            A mole of hydrogen atoms contains 6.02 X 10e+23 atoms

            In order for the feed of hydrogen to meet the power density needs, then hydrogen must be feed into the SunCell at 2.246942291e+21 atoms a second more or less.

          • tlp

            Is that about half milligram? Should be no broblem.

          • Axil Axil

            Because the hydrogen is in a high vacuum, can that much hydrogen fit inside the vacuum chamber and still maintain such a high vacuum?

            The vacuum is indeed high where hydrogen atoms are few and far between because the extreme temperature of the gas at 7000K.

          • tlp

            They don’t need to fit there together, as it is continuous process.

          • Axil Axil

            If the vacuum is 10e-6 bar and the temperature is 10,000K then the number of hydrogen atoms that can fill the container is increased to 10e10.

            The hydrogen needed to produce the reaction would fit into .00022 or 2.2e-4 letters at one bar at room temperature. But the volume needed to hold that hydrogen at 1 millionth of a bar at 10000K is

            (2.2e-4) (10e10) or 10e6 litre.

            In english, that is a million litres or the size of a blump.

          • Axil Axil

            In Mills’ new video, Mills says that he is getting 5 megawatts of light power.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhIoDxjaibQ&index=3&list=PLw1e-SwMe6eJf4Rr32w2UybIWOJ2cODEQ about 22:00 in.

          • tlp

            Good that you are listening to Mills and learning. I remember hearing that figure also. But anyway, it is a continuous, maybe not yet so smooth process. I understood 5MW was a peek power in one of their tests.

          • Axil Axil

            Mills seems to be saying that the hydrino magically leaves the pressure vessel as dark matter.

            For the sake of science, Mills needs to prove this conjecture, it is hard to beleive.

            I still think that the hydrogen is transmuted to other isotopes of silver and the like.

          • tlp

            Mills has proved many times that his experiments produce hydrinos. He has many different ways to prove that, explained on his papers. He said in the video that they have done these measurements for this latest SunCell proto also, but of course have not have time to write a paper of that yet.

  • Axil Axil

    Can anybody calculate this?

    How many hydrogen atoms (hydrinos) exist in the volume of tea cup (150 millileters) at a temperature of 7000K at 1 bar.

    How much power does each of these hydrinos in the teacup volume need to produce in order to sustain a reaction that lasts for 2 minutes at a continuous power output of 2 megawatts?

    • tlp

      From Dr. Mills: “Hydrogen permeates through the blackbody radiator sphere (reaction chamber) and molecular hydrino (H2(1/4)) permeates out.”

      So hydrogen is added all the time. If not then the reaction ends. It is good to have a way to stop it if you want.

      • Axil Axil

        I contend that gas cannot move into a high temperature and pressure regime from a lower temperature/pressure regime. In this way, the plasma ball is isolated from matter inflow that can feed the reaction.

        • tlp

          There is very low pressure inside, high pressure outside.

          • Axil Axil

            At a temperature of 7000K the gas inside the plasma ball is moving fast compared to the gas outside the plasma ball. Fast moving gas atoms with a lot of kinetic energy have a higher pressure than colder gas.

            In an explosion, which way does the gas move, into the explosion of vis versa.

            Why not calculate the energy release per hydrino without gas inflow? Do you think it will tell you something that you don’t want to know?

          • tlp

            Tomorrow the video will be published so we can listen to Mills talking about this maybe two hours or so.

          • doug marker

            Tip,
            Axil should be asking Dr Mills, not you.

            Whatever answer you give will always be your best interpretation.

            I cannot understand why Axil asks these questions in places he knows are only our best interpretations.

            The worst conclusion one can draw is that Axil doesn’t want expert answers.

            D

          • tlp

            Thats true. But Axil asks so many questions, so maybe it is better that he doesn’t ask those directly from Mills.

            Btw. those pressures are about 0.01 mbar inside and 10 bar outside. And the gas inside is 3% hydrogen 97% argon, I’m not sure outside, maybe the same?
            I dont quite understand how hydrinos can permeate out, I have thought that they are sucked out by that vacuum pump.
            But as I said, soon we will hear more information from those presentations.

          • doug marker

            Tip,

            (Can’t see any good reason to keep Axil away from Mills? Why ?) .

            Worth adding that as we know hydrinos are said to have IIRC 27 energy levels and Mills hypothesis is that they can continue to react with both the silver and other hydrinos up to that last level (said to be reached when the orbital speed of the electron reaches light speed).

            Also IIRC Their increasing lightness draws them out from surrounding heavier atoms.

            But Mills is the man to ask.

            Doug.

          • tlp

            I have recommended Axil to join SCP list to be able to ask questions directly from Mills, but Mills is quite busy and may not have time to answer too many questions.
            Especially if those questions he has already answered in some video talks some have not bothered to listen.

            There is not just 27 but 137 energy levels. Silver is not reacting, it is just a good conductor for electricity, and has other good properties, like perfect melting and boiling temperatures for this process.

            Hydrino reaction needs a catalyst. There is many possibilities, but one of the best (and used in SunCell) is water, and that yields 1/4 level hydrinos.
            There is not any water injected anymore, but they found a better way:
            mix some stable metal oxide to the silver. Then in the reaction chamber hydrogen and oxygen from that oxide form a water molecule to act as the catalyst.
            This way only consumable in the process is hydrogen (which is extracted from water outside of the actual reaction chamber) and only “ash” is hydrinos.
            Well, also oxygen is released when hydrogen is extracted from water, but that is an external process.

          • doug marker

            Tip,
            My reading of the process (I’ll go back and check) is that the water is broken into 2x atomic H and 1xO by electrolysis from the arc. Then some of the H atoms are transformed to hydrinos from collisions with the vaporised silver atoms.

            Thanks for clarifying the full number of energy levels.

            This obviously needs clarifying to get the actual detail claimed by the process.

            Cheers Doug

          • tlp

            It has been changed recently, water is not used directly anymore, but hydrogen and some (still secret what exactly) oxide mixed with silver.

          • doug marker

            Holverstott states in his book (and I am certain Mills does in his papers) that the silver and some other compatible atoms such as lithium, act as a catalyst. Even Mills earlier cells were called ‘CIHT – Catalyst Induced Hydrino Transition cells’.

            I have posted above, a comment from Holverstott’s book about this catalyst effect.

            Cheers Doug.

          • tlp

            Water is the catalyst, not silver. I checked the book also, no silver mentioned in that sentense.

  • Jas

    Scientists May Have Identified the Particles That Make Up Dark Matter
    http://futurism.com/?p=57715

    • tlp

      Yes they may have, many times and always differently.
      One scientist, Dr. Randell Mills, has identified it more than 20 years ago.

      • Jas

        I hope Mills is right.

  • Jas

    Scientists May Have Identified the Particles That Make Up Dark Matter
    http://futurism.com/?p=57715

    • tlp

      Yes they may have, many times and always differently.
      One scientist, Dr. Randell Mills, has identified it more than 20 years ago.

      • Jas

        I hope Mills is right.

  • Omega Z

    Beijing, China and western society had no intentions of fouling the air and limiting visibility to 50 yards. It was an unintended consequence.

    Currently, we produce approximately 3KW thermal to generate 1KW electric. Even that is done at a fair distance and distribured by the grid. Suncell appears to be 100’s of kilowatts thermal per 1KW electric. Consider billions of these for homes and billions more for transporation and billions more for industry, you may find your cities suffering the heat island effect on steroids. Regardless, that amount of excess heat will create problems. We may only know how serious with 20/20 hindsight. We have a poor record with our foresight.

    Note I also considered this a problem with Rossi’s orginal E-cats when used by the masses. The peak kilowatt size required to meet their needs running 24/7 365 also created huge amounts of excess waste heat. The Quark appears to eliminate this issue. They can be activated in minutes or less and in 20 watt increments.

    It may be that Mills claims it isn’t economic to harness this heat because the approach/technique he uses is not well suited for turbine generation to begin with.

  • doug marker

    Adding from Brett Holverstott’s book,

    how energy is said to be transferred from a H atom’s electron to a suitable atom capable of ‘resonating’ with and adsorbing energy from H atom.

    Chapter 4…
    Hydrino states (a table of H levels below ground state) allowed by the resonant coupling of a hydrogen atom to a suitable (I.e. Silver) catalyst capable of providing an energy hole of M * 27.2 eV. The hydrino atom transfers energy to the catalyst, then decays with the release of light to form a hydrino.

    Doug Marker

    NOTE lithium is also a capable catalyst for this resonant energy transfer. ( IIRC Mills used lithium in early experiments).

    • tlp

      No, silver is not the catalyst but water.

      • doug marker

        So Brett has it wrong ? (I believe he has it right).

        I’ll go dig up Mills own notes re this.

        Cheers Doug.

        • tlp

          I could not find that Brett says silver is the catalyst in SunCell.

          • doug marker

            I tried to post the page from his book. It isn’t all that clear. I’ll do it again when my overseas trip ends (flying home today).

            Cheers Doug

      • doug marker

        Tip,
        I will also dig up the papers that explain that both water and deuterium can be used and only used in electrolisys to obtain 2xH + 1xO or 2xD and 1xO.

        Mills points out that they obtain the exact same energy from H2O as from D2O and cites this as evidence that there is no nuclear activity.

        Cheers Doug

  • doug marker

    Adding from Brett Holverstott’s book,

    how energy is said to be transferred from an H atom’s electron to a suitable atom capable of ‘resonating’ with and adsorbing energy from the H atom.

    Chapter 4…
    Hydrino states (a table of H levels below ground state) allowed by the resonant coupling of a hydrogen atom to a suitable (I.e. Silver) catalyst capable of providing an energy hole of M * 27.2 eV. The hydrino atom transfers energy to the catalyst, then decays with the release of light to form a hydrino.

    Doug Marker

    NOTE lithium is also a capable catalyst for this resonant energy transfer. ( IIRC Mills used lithium in early experiments).

    • tlp

      No, silver is not the catalyst but water.

      • doug marker

        So Brett has it wrong ? (I believe he has it right).

        I’ll go dig up Mills own notes re this.

        Cheers Doug.

        • tlp

          I could not find that Brett says silver is the catalyst in SunCell.

          • doug marker

            I tried to post the page from his book. It isn’t all that clear. I’ll do it again when my overseas trip ends (flying home today).

            But you can find it in chapter 4 towards the back – there is the table I posted above. It *is* there, I promise 🙂

            Cheers Doug

          • optiongeek

            He doesn’t. Brett wouldn’t make a mistake like that. Ag is *not* the catalyst.

      • doug marker

        Tip,
        I will also dig up the papers that explain that both water and deuterium can be used and only used in electrolisys to obtain 2xH + 1xO or 2xD and 1xO.

        Mills points out that they obtain the exact same energy from H2O as from D2O and cites this as evidence that there is no nuclear activity.

        Cheers Doug

  • doug marker

    Tip,
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5201b1a39405ef297fd87b9ed6e7d3f74f11d1c7dd2d24efe1dc24ac4cb9e830.jpg

    Re what is the catalyst. This image lists them.
    Water is only used so as to obtain atomic H.

    Cheers Doug

    • doug marker

      Am osea travelling so it is difficult to post actual easy to read data.

      I think we need to iron out this “what is the catalyst” issue to minimise confusing other people.

      Cheers Doug

    • tlp

      Silver (Ag) is not on that list, I checked those pages from the book. But water is a special case, just check those Mills papers with HOH in the title. HOH is about the same as H2O but so called nascent water molecule, just what is happening inside SunCell.

      • Axil Axil

        What is the link to that book?

      • doug marker

        Tip,
        I can see what you are saying but there is a contradiction here.

        I can see that in those papers where Mills mentions HOH he is specifically mentioning ‘CIHT’ cells using electrolysis. That goes back several years and prior to the Suncell concept.

        I am satisfied that in the Suncell he uses Ag as the catalyst exactly as explained in Holverstott’s book.

        Again, will add more when not waiting in airline terminals. This issue is an excellent example of debating what us claimed and explained. I agree you had a good basis for your belief re water. I am satisfied with Holverstott’s explanation.

        We do need to debate it more.

        Thanks.

        Doug

  • doug marker

    Tip,
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5201b1a39405ef297fd87b9ed6e7d3f74f11d1c7dd2d24efe1dc24ac4cb9e830.jpg

    Re what is the catalyst. This image lists them.
    Water is only used so as to obtain atomic H.

    Cheers Doug

    • doug marker

      Am osea travelling so it is difficult to post actual easy to read data.

      I think we need to iron out this “what is the catalyst” issue to minimise confusing other people.

      Cheers Doug

    • tlp

      Silver (Ag) is not on that list, I checked those pages from the book. But water is a special case, just check those Mills papers with HOH in the title. HOH is about the same as H2O but so called nascent water molecule, just what is happening inside SunCell.

      Edit: same time in vortex-l:

      Both H and O can absorb 13.6 eV during ionisation. So a single HOH molecule (
      water not bound to other water molecules)
      can accept 40.8 eV by collision from atomic Hydrogen ( 3 x 13.6 eV).
      Potential energy of an atom or molecule is double the ionisation energy. So for
      the HOH molecule the potential energy
      is 81.2 eV. This equals 3 x 27.2 eV and is according to Mills an exact match
      for absorbing enough energy to transition H >>>> H 1/4.
      The transition is accelerated by a very strong current that eliminates charge
      buidup.

      • Axil Axil

        What is the link to that book?

        • tlp
          • optiongeek

            Guys, don’t worry about the Ag – it’s not involved in the “chemistry”. It’s just a lattice providing electrical conductivity. The only elements active in the reaction are: H (fuel), HOH (catalyst) and “some extremely stable oxide” (source of O to make HOH).

          • tlp

            I don’t worry about Ag, I agree 100% with you, and have been trying to explain that as you can see.

          • doug marker

            tlp, your original post said ‘water’ was the catalyst and I disagreed. Then I said it was Silver. We were both off.

            What we are hearing is that the catalyst is HOH (and yes you later said so). Also what we are hearing is that HOH is not water per se – OptionGeek’s summary of it being …

            “The only secret ingredient, for now, is the source of oxygen Mills is
            using that, in combination with H2 gas being diffused into the vessel by
            a pressure gradient, forms the HOH catalyst.”

            So we have an up-to-date answer.

            Cheers Doug.

          • tlp

            What about if you could admit that you were wrong and I was right. HOH is water, just born water molecule.

          • doug marker

            tlp.

            I’ll call you right if you can just show any statement by Mills that he injects water into the SunCell as the catalyst. You surely read the Holverstott list of potential catalysts for the O part of each HOH molecule !. Your original remark was Mills uses water as the catalyst. That is wrong!. The HOH molecules generated are >>not<>extracted from the injected water<< fed into the SunCell, and, uses O extracted from other chemicals in the process and this allows formation of the catalyst molecules HOH that catalyse the production of Hydrinos and the release by the catalyst of EUV light. Water does *not* release the EUV captured by resonant coupling.

            Don't get so hung up on this mistake. We have all done our best to interpret what is proving to be a little more complex process than we 1st thought.

            Let it go – time to move on.

            Cheers Doug

          • tlp

            I said he does not inject water.
            HOH is water:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

          • doug marker

            tlp
            You originally said ‘water is the catalyst’.

            But, please see my newest post at the top. I believe it is the way to end this part of the discussion.

            I will be surprised if you don’t agree with it 🙂

            Cheers Doug

          • tlp

            Just say you admit, water = HOH is the catalyst in SunCell. Very simple way to end this.

          • doug marker

            Take 10 deep breaths and relax. Cheers Doug (we are on the same side).

          • tlp

            Ok I take this that you admit. It is just so difficult sometimes. Cheers.

          • doug marker

            Mills Chart
            Atomic H + Catalyst. Not ‘Water’

            The Process does not combine Atomic Hydrogen and water ! – The process obtains the atomic H >>from water<< then obtains O that is added to the molten silver to create the HOH ions which become the catalyst.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5c8ab5cbec422f9b49b685a23e8e2fd8a6f80b0c248d04a307e378494edb2eaa.jpg

        • doug marker

          Tip, Optiongeek,

          I accept the point and have concluded that the description in Holverstott’s book must be a simplified version.

          Tip, you are right in that Silver isn’t listed in the full table of Hydrino transition catalysts.

          Good debate and we all learn.

          Thanks Doug

      • doug marker

        Tip,
        I can see what you are saying but there is a contradiction here.

        I can see that in those papers where Mills mentions HOH he is specifically mentioning ‘CIHT’ cells using electrolysis. That goes back several years and prior to the Suncell concept.

        I am satisfied that in the Suncell he uses Ag as the catalyst exactly as explained in Holverstott’s book.
        EDIT: 6 Nov 2016 – am happy now that Brett Holverstott’s explanation is a simplified (reduced) description and not the full story. More added in posts above.

        Again, will add more when not waiting in airline terminals. This issue is an excellent example of debating what is claimed and explained. I agree you had a good basis for your belief re water. I am satisfied with Holverstott’s explanation.

        Thanks.

        Doug

    • optiongeek

      Nice research, Doug, but I’m afraid you’re not quite right here. The catalyst is not the secret, in fact Mills has been quite open about it for years now. He’s using “nascent” H20 (or HOH as Mills calls it), which accepts 3 x 27.2eV, or 81.6ev. Because it takes 3 energy packets, it therefore reduces H to the 3rd hydrino state, H[1/4]. The only secret ingredient, for now, is the source of oxygen Mills is using that, in combination with H2 gas being diffused into the vessel by a pressure gradient, forms the HOH catalyst. Other H2 gas molecules are disassociated into atomic H and become the fuel. Mills has only revealed that the source of oxygen is an extremely stable oxide of some type, lots of speculation on what it might be.

      Actually, there’s an interesting and mostly untold story behind HOH as the catalyst and how Mills used his theory to discover how it could be used. The GUTCP theory can be used to calculate atomic properties such as the radii of electron orbital. I know because I’ve used it to calculate some of these radii myself, pretty fun in fact. The interesting thing for HOH is that the ratio of the 3rd (outer most) orbital radius of O to the radius of the H orbital radius is *exactly* 1.0. The analytical formulas that fall out of GUTCP just happens to produce this result naturally. Why is this important? Because the amount of energy absorbed by an atom is related to the outermost electron orbital radius. Therefore, all three atoms of HOH accept exactly 27.2eV and the whole molecule can accept 3 x 27.2 = 81.6eV – exactly what we need for the triple jump from ground state to H[1/4]. Regular water doesn’t provide this capability because the hydrogen bonds between molecules isn’t an exact match. You need “nascent” water, or HOH. This is why Rossi is struggling, he hasn’t figured out the link to H, HOH and high current/low voltage that Mills uses to get his “boom”.

      • doug marker

        Really nice explanation and very informative. Thanks

        Doug Marker

  • nanoradical

    From post 10514 SCP: >The pressure vessel is maintained at 10 atm to match the internal
    pressure of the blackbody radiator. Two vendors guarantee no
    sublimation of proprietary graphitized carbon at 3000°C. <

    Apparently no vacuum condition exists in an operational reaction core. Some externally sourced information suggests that synthetic graphite tends to be difficult to form into a pore free structure.

    https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SocietyforClassicalPhysics/conversations/messages/10514

  • nanoradical

    Refer to the current edition of the business plan page 94 for the quoted price of lease at $0.05 per kWh (DC). An installation fee is mentioned, which in a previous edition, if remembered correctly, was calculated based on nameplate output. An inverter is mentioned as an option page 90, and in previous editions was quoted as an additional $0.01 per kWh. What is the current hydroelectric generation costs to a customer?

    http://brilliantlightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/presentations/Tech-Business%20Presentation%20November%201%202016-links.pdf

  • doug marker

    Tip,
    This Holverstott blog post is partially helpful in that he explains the need for electrolysys of the water (or Deuterium).

    It is a good read.

    Cheers. Doug

    http://www.brettholverstott.com/annoucements/2016/8/27/the-hydrino-and-environmentalism

  • doug marker

    Tip,
    This Holverstott blog post is partially helpful in that he explains the need for electrolysys of the water (or Deuterium).

    The below link is also a good read.

    Cheers. Doug

    http://www.brettholverstott.com/annoucements/2016/8/27/the-hydrino-and-environmentalism

  • nanoradical

    Molten metal has an affinity for gases which increases with temperature–the fuel (H2) dissolves into the molten silver. Silver near it’s boiling point (2,162°C) possesses a vapor pressure approximating 100 kPa–in operation the silver vapor is heated substantially above the boiling point. The reaction chamber is not at vacuum while in operation–“With sufficient silver vapor pressure, the power will persist by a self-sustaining hydrino reaction.” Any elevation of reaction chamber pressure would shift the boiling point upward. The external containment pressure of 10 bar balances the internal pressure of the reaction chamber per RM. The video caption refers to a “silver boiling” mode as replenishing the silver vapor toward sustaining a reaction.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBheBH9eio

  • doug marker

    Below is an extract that use one well understood meaning as to the use of a catalyst in the Mills Suncell. There may be other uses in a different context.

    I’ll post a link to the source as a reply.

    EXTRACT:
    Mills’s theory used the latest advances in electrodynamics to understand the stability of the ground state. But Mills also predicted that under certain conditions, the electron of a hydrogen atom may occupy a lower orbit than the ground state. Instead of jumping to this orbit by releasing light, the hydrogen atom must collide with another atom, called a catalyst, and exchange energy in a process known as resonant coupling. The catalyst must be able to absorb just the right amount of energy in the process of ejecting electrons or breaking chemical bonds.

    According to Mills, the electron in the hydrogen atom then releases light as it falls to an orbit that is an integer fraction (1/2, 1/3, 1/4… etc.) of the ground state, forming what Mills named a hydrino.

  • doug marker

    Below is an extract from Brett’s book that uses one well understood meaning as to the use of a catalyst in the Mills Suncell. There may be other uses in a different context.

    I’ll post a link to the source as a reply to this post. It comes from a summary of Brett Holverstott’s book created by Holverstott himself. I trust him to be using the right terminology as applies to the SunCell vs the ‘CIHT’ cells.

    EXTRACT:
    Mills’s theory used the latest advances in electrodynamics to understand the stability of the ground state. But Mills also predicted that under certain conditions, the electron of a hydrogen atom may occupy a lower orbit than the ground state. Instead of jumping to this orbit by releasing light, the hydrogen atom must collide with another atom, called a catalyst, and exchange energy in a process known as resonant coupling. The catalyst must be able to absorb just the right amount of energy in the process of ejecting electrons or breaking chemical bonds.

    According to Mills, the electron in the hydrogen atom then releases light as it falls to an orbit that is an integer fraction (1/2, 1/3, 1/4… etc.) of the ground state, forming what Mills named a hydrino.

    • doug marker

      The link …

      To find the above quoted text you will need to scan for a bit of the text, at the below link. It is a long way in and there aren’t any page numbers.

      http://www.brettholverstott.com/sample

  • artefact
    • tlp

      Watched already. Quite long story but must see stuff.

  • artefact

    BLP: Demonstration Day Videos online

    http://brilliantlightpower.com/demonstration-days/

    • tlp

      Watched already. Quite long story but must see stuff.

  • doug marker

    THE PROCESS FOR THE >>SUNCELL<< ….

    INPUT:
    'Light Water' is 'one' source for the fuel (H2O)
    (There are other sources being experimented with)
    Atomic H is a fuel obtained by electrolysis from H2O (via arc)
    (Atomic H can be obtained by other means as well)

    PROCESS:
    Silver is used as a hydrino catalyst (in the current SunCell)
    Electron energy is transferred to the catalyst element by 'resonant coupling'
    (Other elements with certain electron configurations can also be used)
    The Silver now also aids in triggering the arcing that fires the plasma
    (A development needed to eliminate solid electrodes that kept burning out)

    OUTPUT:
    Hydrinos are a product out
    EUV is a product out
    Oxygen also comes from the electrolysis process when that approach is used.

    • tlp

      Except silver is not the catalyst. There is small amount of still secret oxide mixed with silver. Look especially those validation reports. There are many places where that oxide name is sensored out. Oxygen from that oxide forms nascent water molecule HOH which acts as the catalyst. This is so new invention that it is not covered in Holverstott’s book. But anyway Brett did not mention anywhere that silver could be the catalyst.

      • doug marker

        Tip,

        I agree that we may not be getting the full story 😉 – certainly the Brett Holverstott book simplifies the description and uses the word catalyst differently to how it is used in the CIHT documents.

        So your point is well made and well taken.

        Cheers Doug

        • tlp

          What happens when oxygen reacts with hydrogen?

          • doug marker

            tlp,
            This issue has been resolved. Calling the catalyst ‘water’ is wrong and calling it Silver is wrong. See Mills presentation and the papers that you already posted about the CIHT cells. See also the full chart Brett Published where he lists all the elements that can be act as catalysts.

            We have all done well to get to this level of understanding.

            Time to move on 😉

            Cheers Doug

          • tlp
          • doug marker

            Tlp,

            You can’t let this go – please go back and read the list of nominated catalysts and also show where Mills states he injects water ‘as the catalyst’. He doesn’t. He injects water to obtain atomic H, the current Suncell process uses a separate technique to inject O from an oxide into the molten silver which is later blended with the atomic H to trigger the catalytic effect in the current SunCell – please go study the diagrams !.

            The process can use ANY of the catalysts in Holverstott’s and Mills list.

            At this point can we end this in peace – lets agree to disagree – you can keep claiming that the water injected into the SunCell is the catalyst and I will continue to point to the list of catalysts in Holverstott’s book and at the Mills web site, and how for this version of the SunCell H is extracted from the injected water, is then blended with O from an oxide embedded in the molten silver and this combination is used (at the moment) as the catalyst in the current model.

            Sorry but if I were to tell anyone that Mills SunCell uses water as the catalyst (let alone the only catalyst) I would consider I was misleading them in a naive way.

            Please can we move on !.

            Thanks

            Doug

          • tlp

            No, you just go an read all my replys to you, and admit that I did not say water is injected to work as catalyst, but still water is the catalyst, HOH is water. How can this be so difficult fo you to admit that I was right? Now just a short reply please, where you say “I admit”

          • doug marker

            See my latest post about catalysts up above – but do take 10 deep breaths. This is not game of thrones 🙂 – we are on the same side , really.

            Cheers Doug

  • doug marker

    THE PROCESS FOR THE >>SUNCELL<>hydrogen derived from water<>a very stable solid source of oxygen that reacts with the hydrogen to form the hydrogen to hydrino catalyst; <<
    (iii) an ignition system to produce a low-voltage, high current flow across a pair of electrodes into which the molten metal and fuel are injected to form a brilliant light
    -emitting plasma;
    (iv) a blackbody radiator heated to incandescent temperature by the plasma;
    (v) a light to electricity converter comprising so-called concentrator photovoltaic cells that receive light from the blackbody radiator and operate at light intensity of over one thousand Suns; and
    (vi) a fuel recovery and a thermal management system that causes the molten metal to return to the injection system following ignition.
    ***************************

    OUTPUT:
    Hydrinos are a product out
    EUV is a product out
    Oxygen when electrolysis is used to extract atomic H for the transitions

    • tlp

      Except silver is not the catalyst. There is small amount of still secret oxide mixed with silver. Look especially those validation reports. There are many places where that oxide name is sensored out. Oxygen from that oxide forms nascent water molecule HOH which acts as the catalyst. This is so new invention that it is not covered in Holverstott’s book. But anyway Brett did not mention anywhere that silver could be the catalyst.
      Edit: HOH catalyst is not new, but that oxide mixed with silver. Earlier in SunCell they used water directly, but this works better.
      In CIHT cell they already used oxides for HOH formation. Maybe same type of oxides?

      • doug marker

        Tip,

        I agree that we may not be getting the full story 😉 – certainly the Brett Holverstott book simplifies the description and uses the word catalyst differently to how it is used in the CIHT documents and Mills own description that I have now edited into the parent post.

        I believe we should agree that ‘water’ per se isn’t the catalyst and neither is Silver. As Mills says it is “a very stable solid source of oxygen that reacts with the hydrogen to form the hydrogen to hydrino catalyst”;.

        So your point is well made and well taken.

        Cheers Doug

        • tlp

          What happens when oxygen reacts with hydrogen?

          • doug marker

            tlp,
            This issue has been resolved. Calling the catalyst ‘water’ is wrong and calling it Silver is wrong. Water per se is not injected into the SunCell as the catalyst. See Mills presentation and the papers that you already posted about the CIHT cells. See also the full chart Brett Published where he lists all the elements that can act as catalysts.

            We have all done well to get to this level of understanding. As you say, there have been changes in what is being described. It is easy to assume some of these things when not correct. I certainly did re Silver.

            Time to move on 😉

            Cheers Doug

          • tlp
          • doug marker

            Tlp,

            See my new post re this.

            Cheers Doug

          • tlp

            No, you just go an read all my replys to you, and admit that I did not say water is injected to work as catalyst, but still water is the catalyst, HOH is water. How can this be so difficult fo you to admit that I was right? Now just a short reply please, where you say “I admit”

          • doug marker

            See my latest post about catalysts up above – but do take 10 deep breaths. This is not game of thrones 🙂 – we are on the same side , really.

            Cheers Doug

          • optiongeek

            I’m very sorry to pile on but I think this is an important point. The primary catalyst in all of Mills’ current work (including the SunCell) is exclusively nascent water (i.e. ordinary H2O in which the hydrogen bonds have been eliminated), also labeled “HOH”. Water in other phases (liquid, ice, steam, etc.) won’t work because the hydrogen bonds between molecules destroys the affinity of the HOH molecule to the hydrino reaction, has to be nascent.

          • doug marker

            Lets all agree to call the current SunCell catalyst ‘nascent water molecules’ where the oxygen has become ionized. That is my understanding of how Mills describes it

            I still think there are still issues re this description – such as that AFAICT to ionize the oxygen the H & O have to be split and Mills describes using the arc for electrolysis and the H2 is used but the oxygen source is as Tlp said, obtained for the process after being embeded in the silver from an oxide ingredient. This O isn’t the O atom extracted from the electrolysis (which isn’t ionized).

            To further clarify this ‘nascent water’ definition. The way I am reading it is that it is a water molecule (HOH) that is only just formed, and can only act as a catalyst if the O was ionized before the molecule formed. The bit I am not seeing clearly yet is where the H comes from that this ‘nascent water molecule’ catalyzes, does it catalyze itself (Mills has said for CIHT cells this
            “Nascent H2O is formed at the anode during discharge by oxidation of OH- and reaction with H”)
            or does this new molecule catalyze a separate H atom in which case the HOH molecule is the source of the final EUV energy release. But, thus far, this part of the process is not exactly 100% clear there iis IMHO confusion between the description for CIHT cells and the description for the SunCell arcing and silver with O process even if the catalytic effect id said to be the same.

            PS I really appreciate everyone’s input (esp tlp and optiongeek) on exactly what and how the catalyzing takes place. It is not a simple process.

            PPS – dictionary definition of ‘nascent’ suggests it to mean something that s ‘newly formed’ – so, a ‘nascent water molecule’, based on this definition, is one that is newly formed.

            PPPS: Also found this description.
            Specifically, oxidation-reduction reactions of H2O involving oxygen and oxygen ion intermediates such as hydroxide, oxides, peroxides, and superoxides are involved in the >>spontaneous electrolysis of water powered by hydrino formation that in turn result in the formation of catalyst<< and hydrinos. ((Again this is from CIHT papers)).

            Cheers Doug

          • optiongeek

            Doug, I think you have cleared the “freemium” levels and are ready to move on to more advanced material. Can I suggest you ask this question at the Society for Classical Physics forum at Yahoo? There are actual chemists there who will be happy to engage with you as I’m at the limit of my knowledge.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Wow. industry day videos are up. I wonder if any of the brilliant people here can refute the astounding revelations of Dr. Mills’ theory. If not, explain why they can’t refute him.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Wow. industry day videos are up. I wonder if any of the brilliant people here can refute the astounding revelations of Dr. Mills’ theory. If not, explain why they can’t refute him.

  • tlp

    I don’t worry about Ag, I agree 100% with you, and have been trying to explain that as you can see.

    • doug marker

      tlp, your original post said ‘water’ was the catalyst and I disagreed. Then I said it was Silver. We were both off.

      What we are hearing is that the catalyst is HOH (and yes you later said so). Also what we are hearing is that HOH is not water per se – OptionGeek’s summary of it being …

      “The only secret ingredient, for now, is the source of oxygen Mills is
      using that, in combination with H2 gas being diffused into the vessel by
      a pressure gradient, forms the HOH catalyst.”

      So we have an up-to-date answer.

      Cheers Doug.

      • tlp

        What about if you could admit that you were wrong and I was right. HOH is water, just born water molecule.

        • doug marker

          tlp.

          I’ll call you right if you can just show any statement by Mills that he injects water into the SunCell as the catalyst. You surely read the Holverstott list of potential catalysts for the O part of each HOH molecule !. Your original remark was Mills uses water as the catalyst. That is wrong!. The HOH molecules generated are >>not<>extracted from water<< fed into the SunCell, and, uses O extracted from other chemicals in the catalyzing process and this allows the transitions that produce EUV light and Hydrinos.

          Don't get so hung up on this mistake. We have all done our best to interpret what is proving to be a little more complex process than we 1st thought.

          Let it go – time to move on.

          Cheers Doug

          • tlp

            I said he does not inject water.
            HOH is water:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

          • doug marker

            tlp
            You originally said ‘water is the catalyst’.

            But, please see my newest post at the top. I believe it is the way to end this part of the discussion.

            I will be surprised if you don’t agree with it 🙂

            Cheers Doug

          • tlp

            Just say you admit, water = HOH is the catalyst in SunCell. Very simple way to end this.

          • doug marker

            Take 10 deep breaths and relax. Cheers Doug (we are on the same side).

          • tlp

            Ok I take this that you admit. It is just so difficult sometimes. Cheers.

        • doug marker

          Mills Chart
          Atomic H + Catalyst. Not ‘Water’

          The Process does not combine Atomic Hydrogen and water ! – The process obtains the atomic H >>from water<< then obtains O that is added to the molten silver to create the HOH ions which become the catalyst.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5c8ab5cbec422f9b49b685a23e8e2fd8a6f80b0c248d04a307e378494edb2eaa.jpg

  • bfast

    “Where all this puts Rossi and LENR is a good question.” I contend that the market will have GOBS of room for Rossi’s technology. The sun cell seems quite large, whereas a single QuarkX will likely fit into a cell phone. There is all manner of question about how the sun cell will work in a moving application like a vehicle. QuarkX is very likely to work just fine in such an application.

    The biggest question I still have is, have two separate physics transforming technologies been discovered effectively simultaneously? This seems highly doubtful to me. When the dust settles, I expect that the laws of physics will only require one rewrite to accommodate both technologies. IOW these are two sides to the same coin.

    Exciting days these.

  • bfast

    “Where all this puts Rossi and LENR is a good question.” I contend that the market will have GOBS of room for Rossi’s technology. The sun cell seems quite large, whereas a single QuarkX will likely fit into a cell phone. There is all manner of question about how the sun cell will work in a moving application like a vehicle. QuarkX is very likely to work just fine in such an application.

    The biggest question I still have is, have two separate physics transforming technologies been discovered effectively simultaneously? This seems highly doubtful to me. When the dust settles, I expect that the laws of physics will only require one rewrite to accommodate both technologies. IOW these are two sides to the same coin.

    Exciting days these.

  • doug marker

    Really nice explanation and very informative. Thanks

    Doug Marker

  • doug marker

    There has been a side debate here on what the catalyst is in the SunCell. Tlp says it is water and I at 1st said Silver but later agreed that in fact Silver is not among the catalysts that can make the hydrino transition work. I withdrew that comment.

    tlp wants me to say “the catalyst is water” but I argue that this is not really true and at best is a simplistic interpretation of the Hydrino transition process.

    Below is the text from Brett Holverstott’s book where he states that there is a long list of catalysts that can trigger the transition and explains why each catalyst works and how.

    If I am wrong am happy to say so, but at the moment can not agree to the simplified statement “the catalyst is water” as was originally posted by tlp.

    ************************ Per Brett Holverstott …..

    New energy is the holy grail of invention, and Mills lost focus on his other activities to dedicate himself full–time to the hydrino research.

    He started by making a list of atomic catalysts that could absorb the required amount of energy from the hydrogen atom, 27.2 eV. The catalyst, as the receiver, must be able to expel the energy it absorbs, perhaps by breaking off (ionizing) electrons or breaking molecular bonds; the ionized electrons would carry off the energy kinetically. So any ionization that occurred at (or close to) integer multiples of 27.2 could potentially serve as the catalyst. The list was long: many of the atoms in the periodic table could be catalysts. Lithium, twice ionized, could catalyze a transition to an H(1/4) hydrino; beryllium, twice ionized, could catalyze a transition to an H(1/2); potassium, thrice ionized, could catalyze a transition to an H(1/4). Ions could also serve: a previously ionized helium ion (He+), if it ionizes again, could catalyze a transition to an H(1/3) hydrino.

    Catalyst m
    He+ → He2+ 2
    Rb → Rb7+ 14
    Li → Li2+ 3
    Rb → Rb8+ 14
    Be → Be2+ 1
    Sr → Sr5+ 7
    Na+ → Na4+ 8
    Sr+ → Sr3+ 7
    Ar+ → Ar2+ 1
    Nb → Nb5+ 5
    K → K3+ 3
    Mo → Mo6+ 8
    2K+ → K + K2+ 1
    Mo → Mo8+ 18
    Ca → Ca4+ 5
    Mo2+ → Mo3+ 1
    Ti → Ti5+ 7
    Mo4+ → Mo5+ 2
    V → V5+ 6
    Pd → Pd2+ 1
    Cr → Cr3+ 2
    In → In3+ 2
    Mn → Mn4+ 4
    Sn → Sn5+ 6
    Fe → Fe3+ 2
    Te → Te2+ 1
    Fe → Fe4+ 4
    Te → Te3+ 2
    Fe3+ → Fe4+ 2
    2Ba2+ → Ba++Ba3+ 1
    Co → Co4+ 4
    Cs → Cs2+ 1
    Co → Co5+ 7
    Ce → Ce5+ 5
    Ni → Ni5+ 7
    Ce → Ce6+ 8
    Ni → Ni6+ 11
    Pr → Pr5+ 5
    Cu → Cu2+ 1
    Sm → Sm4+ 3
    Zn → Zn2+ 1
    Gd → Gd4+ 3
    Zn → Zn8+ 23
    Dy → Dy4+ 3
    As → As6+ 11

    Atomic catalysts capable of undergoing resonant absorption of approximately m * 27.2 eV of energy from a hydrogen atom to produce an H(1/(p+m)) hydrino. For instance, an H(1/1) hydrogen atom (where p = 1) may undergo a transition to an H(1/4) hydrino by transferring 3 * 27.2 eV to a potassium atom, which undergoes ionization to produce K3+. The catalyst may later recover its electrons, and is unchanged in the overall reaction. Hydrinos may then undergo further catalysis, or themselves act as catalysts.
    (Mills 2000)

    Even molecules may serve as catalysts. If gas–phase sodium hydride (NaH) breaks apart, and ionizes one of the sodium atom’s electrons, the reaction could allow a transition to an H(1/3) hydrino. And a water molecule, if it breaks up and ionizes the oxygen, can allow a transition to an H(1/4) hydrino (a reaction which will become important later on). After inducing the hydrino transition, the catalyst is then free to recapture its electrons or reform its bonds later on, so overall it remains unchanged. The only permanent change (a loss of energy) is within the hydrogen atom itself. Once the catalyst absorbs the necessary energy, the electron orbit in hydrogen is made unstable, and it can then shrink, emitting a photon in the process, to form a hydrino. The hydrogen is permanently altered, forming an atom hitherto unexplored by science. Mills was still working out of Farrell’s lab. He had arrived at a list of catalysts, but not yet begun experiments, when news broke out from the University of Utah that two electrochemists were unveiling a new major energy source of their own.

    ****************************************************

    The concession I am happy to make to tlp is that if we agree that there can be be many catalysts I will agree that in the current version of the SunCell these words from Holverstott apply … “And a water *molecule*, >>if it breaks up and ionizes the oxygen<<, can allow a transition to an H(1/4) hydrino.

    I hope this explanation placates us all.

    Cheers Doug Marker

  • doug marker

    There has been a side debate here on what the catalyst is in the SunCell. Tlp says it is water and I at 1st said Silver but later agreed that in fact Silver is not among the catalysts that can make the hydrino transition work. I withdrew that comment.

    tlp wants me to say “the catalyst is water” but I argue that this is not really true and at best is a simplistic interpretation of the Hydrino transition process.

    Below is the text from Brett Holverstott’s book where he states that there is a long list of catalysts that can trigger the transition and explains why each catalyst works and how.

    If I am wrong am happy to say so, but at the moment can not agree to the simplified statement “the catalyst is water” as was originally posted by tlp.

    ************************ Per Brett Holverstott …..

    New energy is the holy grail of invention, and Mills lost focus on his other activities to dedicate himself full–time to the hydrino research.

    He started by making a list of atomic catalysts that could absorb the required amount of energy from the hydrogen atom, 27.2 eV. The catalyst, as the receiver, must be able to expel the energy it absorbs, perhaps by breaking off (ionizing) electrons or breaking molecular bonds; the ionized electrons would carry off the energy kinetically. So any ionization that occurred at (or close to) integer multiples of 27.2 could potentially serve as the catalyst. The list was long: many of the atoms in the periodic table could be catalysts. Lithium, twice ionized, could catalyze a transition to an H(1/4) hydrino; beryllium, twice ionized, could catalyze a transition to an H(1/2); potassium, thrice ionized, could catalyze a transition to an H(1/4). Ions could also serve: a previously ionized helium ion (He+), if it ionizes again, could catalyze a transition to an H(1/3) hydrino.

    Catalyst m
    He+ → He2+ 2
    Rb → Rb7+ 14
    Li → Li2+ 3
    Rb → Rb8+ 14
    Be → Be2+ 1
    Sr → Sr5+ 7
    Na+ → Na4+ 8
    Sr+ → Sr3+ 7
    Ar+ → Ar2+ 1
    Nb → Nb5+ 5
    K → K3+ 3
    Mo → Mo6+ 8
    2K+ → K + K2+ 1
    Mo → Mo8+ 18
    Ca → Ca4+ 5
    Mo2+ → Mo3+ 1
    Ti → Ti5+ 7
    Mo4+ → Mo5+ 2
    V → V5+ 6
    Pd → Pd2+ 1
    Cr → Cr3+ 2
    In → In3+ 2
    Mn → Mn4+ 4
    Sn → Sn5+ 6
    Fe → Fe3+ 2
    Te → Te2+ 1
    Fe → Fe4+ 4
    Te → Te3+ 2
    Fe3+ → Fe4+ 2
    2Ba2+ → Ba++Ba3+ 1
    Co → Co4+ 4
    Cs → Cs2+ 1
    Co → Co5+ 7
    Ce → Ce5+ 5
    Ni → Ni5+ 7
    Ce → Ce6+ 8
    Ni → Ni6+ 11
    Pr → Pr5+ 5
    Cu → Cu2+ 1
    Sm → Sm4+ 3
    Zn → Zn2+ 1
    Gd → Gd4+ 3
    Zn → Zn8+ 23
    Dy → Dy4+ 3
    As → As6+ 11

    Atomic catalysts capable of undergoing resonant absorption of approximately m * 27.2 eV of energy from a hydrogen atom to produce an H(1/(p+m)) hydrino. For instance, an H(1/1) hydrogen atom (where p = 1) may undergo a transition to an H(1/4) hydrino by transferring 3 * 27.2 eV to a potassium atom, which undergoes ionization to produce K3+. The catalyst may later recover its electrons, and is unchanged in the overall reaction. Hydrinos may then undergo further catalysis, or themselves act as catalysts.
    (Mills 2000)

    Even molecules may serve as catalysts. If gas–phase sodium hydride (NaH) breaks apart, and ionizes one of the sodium atom’s electrons, the reaction could allow a transition to an H(1/3) hydrino. And a water molecule, if it breaks up and ionizes the oxygen, can allow a transition to an H(1/4) hydrino (a reaction which will become important later on). After inducing the hydrino transition, the catalyst is then free to recapture its electrons or reform its bonds later on, so overall it remains unchanged. The only permanent change (a loss of energy) is within the hydrogen atom itself. Once the catalyst absorbs the necessary energy, the electron orbit in hydrogen is made unstable, and it can then shrink, emitting a photon in the process, to form a hydrino. The hydrogen is permanently altered, forming an atom hitherto unexplored by science. Mills was still working out of Farrell’s lab. He had arrived at a list of catalysts, but not yet begun experiments, when news broke out from the University of Utah that two electrochemists were unveiling a new major energy source of their own.

    ****************************************************

    The concession I am happy to make to tlp is that if we agree that there can be be many catalysts I will agree that in the current version these words from Holverstott apply … “And a water *molecule*, >>if it breaks up and ionizes the oxygen<<, can allow a transition to an H(1/4) hydrino.

    I hope this explanation placates us all.

    Cheers Doug Marker

  • nanoradical

    I believe the distinction of HOH over H2O is that there are no hydrogen bond entanglements with another water molecule, which would alter the hydrogen bond angle–bond energy balance, and prevent catalytic action. Isolating a single water molecule from companions is like pulling an isolated magnet from a grab bag full of magnets–its just more practical to create nascent HOH as required, now accomplished by the oxide (oxygen donor) interacting with H2.

    • doug marker

      That seems to be the description of what is emerging as the current catalytic process.

      Doug

  • doug marker

    Lets all agree to call the current SunCell catalyst ‘nascent water molecules’ where the oxygen has become ionized. That is my understanding of how Mills describes it

    Cheers Doug

  • doug marker

    That seems to be what is emerging as the current catalytic process.

    Doug

  • nanoradical

    Wondered about some variant of tungsten oxides micro-particles as a possibility. WO3 particles for example are readily wetted by molten silver, thus would disperse. Also metallic tungsten mixed with silver doesn’t actually form a true alloy, because the two aren’t mutually soluble to any extent. Chemist opinions?

  • doug marker

    Am always willing to give praise where it appears earned & Axil has IMHO done so.

    Axil shows he was willing and able to both do his homework and upon recognizing what he sees as success, has publicly said so.

    His new comments about Randell Mills and Hydrino transitions are here …

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3560-The-Industrial-Heat-Answer/?pageNo=39

  • doug marker

    Am always willing to give praise where it appears earned & Axil has IMHO done so.

    Axil shows he was willing and able to both do his homework and upon recognizing what he sees as success, has publicly said so.

    His new comments about Randell Mills and Hydrino transitions are here …

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3560-The-Industrial-Heat-Answer/?pageNo=39

  • nanoradical

    A surface-plasmon-polariton effect allows the selection of the radiant emissions spectrum delivered to a thermophotovoltaic, ensuring high efficiency conversion.

    [‘Squeezing’ near-field thermal emission for ultra-efficient high-power thermophotovoltaic conversion]

    http://www.nature.com/articles/srep28472

  • nanoradical

    A surface-plasmon-polariton effect allows the selection of the radiant emissions spectrum delivered to a thermophotovoltaic, ensuring high efficiency conversion.

    [‘Squeezing’ near-field thermal emission for ultra-efficient high-power thermophotovoltaic conversion]

    http://www.nature.com/articles/srep28472

  • Omega Z

    Stomps feet making demands.

    MFMP: LENR research by individual collaborators from multiple countries. Most of these individuals have day jobs. They donate their time and use their money to purchase expensive materials and equipment to build devices for these tests. They also pay for their own travel costs when joining others to do tests.

    MFMP accepts contributions and donations to help offset the cost of materials and equipement, but it falls far short of covering all costs. One should keep that in mind when asking them to provide a Demo that will have zero impact wasting their time and money. It is also not MFMP’s intent to prove anuything to us or develop a consumer product.

    MFMP’s goal is to develop a device that produces excess energy beyond error and is highly repeatable. When this goal is met, they intend to produce and provide kits to be provided to hundreds of research labs and Universities to replicate their work proving once and for all to a large group that the affect is real beyond doubt.

  • Jas

    What I found interesting from watching the videos was that there were people from Vodaphone and BT in the audience. The person from BT got up and spoke. Servers use a tremendous amount of power. The telecoms industry would obviously benefit from cheaper electricity. BLP have even postulated that telecom companies could become energy suppliers.

  • Jas

    What I found interesting from watching the videos was that there were people from Vodaphone and BT in the audience. The person from BT got up and spoke. Servers use a tremendous amount of power. The telecoms industry would obviously benefit from cheaper electricity. BLP have even postulated that telecom companies could become energy suppliers.