MFMP Invites Crowd Engagement for Developing Testing Protocols for ECCO Device

Thanks to Bob Greenyer for announcing the creation of new live collaboration documents that are designed for the purpose of developing the test protocols for the Indian ECCO device which the MFMP have been invited to test by the lead developer, Suhas. Interested persons are invited to participate in providing input.

Here’s the introduction:

About this planning document

This document is being developed live, online and with public access to view it. It will change as we learn more about the system to be tested. It will change as we get suggestions from interested parties. We believe in the power of the crowd to process information and contribute from many perspectives to make a better overall product. We welcome suggestions from viewers of this document. If you think you know a better tool or methodology that will leave less open questions – we want to hear from you! If you cannot make edits here directly, please join the conversation on the MFMP ECCO web page.

The documents can be accessed at this link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fIOv1GnuXHNt6KymBcebSNFrePDsaIUf1xWE1NIQzPI/pub

  • Teemu Soilamo

    <– this, too. Do not screw this up where legitimate doubts can be raised after the fact.

  • Rene

    More important than location are broad spectrum analyzers. If RF is being beamed in it will be a lot of energy, fairly straightforward to notice.

  • Bob Greenyer

    No such a silly idea – but then, if we had a professional magician there – people might use that against us.

    I plan to record in spherical – so people can see every angle and action.

    • HS61AF91

      A chance to advocate for LENR presented itself for me. There was a report in the military newspaper “Stars and Stripes” on 28 March, written by AP reporters Matthew Daily and Jill Colvin headlined “Trump tosses Obama’s ‘clean’ energy plan, embraces coal.” Since I referenced India’s ECCO in my comments, I’d like to share them here: ME: LENR is about to explode into the energy arena, and render the hem and haw of pro/con environment concerns mute. I am surprised that there is not a whimper of this revolutionary energy means squeaking out of the WH. Missing the boat of clean water, clean air, clean energy, and a whole lot more. My interlocutor: HS61AF91, you and I have had a long discussion on LENR. Last I was aware it was still a DARPA project. DARPA projects are as far as I know not well
      advanced. I know something about LENR. Where are we with moving it
      out of DARPA? On our last conversation I was dead set against it, but
      I’d like to know more about it. ME:
      Highly recommend ‘E-Cat
      World’ where one dedicated enthusiast continually brings together
      developing technological, experimental, and judicial developments
      relating to LENR. Not only in our land (E-cat, Quark X, Blilliant
      Light Power, etc.), but in India (ECCO project), in Japan (Nissan),
      in China (Ni-H System), and Russia (Parkhomov). Even Bill Gates and
      his 1 billion dollar Breakthrough Energy Ventures (BEV) investment
      getting into the act. Why we are stuck with a innovative government
      that does not do much innovating is beyond belief. Maybe it will just
      hit them in the face, when the rest of the world passes us by in new
      energy, ‘free’ energy (i.e. more out than put in) successes while we
      are putzing around with biological fermented waste products.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Thanks for fighting the good fight – I am sure Suhas will be flattered to know of your words and he will read here.

        When unequivocal evidence is allowed to be accepted of safe LENR, only fools would ignore it. The folks here following ECW are at the forefront of establishing this evidence. We have all been through ups and downs on this journey – but there does now appear to be cracks in the dam of ignorance showing.

        We might reserve hubris however for when our little band of new fire warriors gets the data we need to overcome the disinformation set against us.

      • Adam Lepczak

        Government and people in power and in general run by psychopaths. They do not care about anything or anybody except their own short term interest. It is not inn the interest of people in power to liberate humanity and make basic needs cheap.

        • Khazar Agent

          I must absolutely oppose your suspicion that “… They do not care about anything or anybody except their own short term interest …”
          As every analyst may see, Donald care about interest of Khazarian people (note: in 18th Century there was invented new word for marking of Khazarian people). So your accusation is partially wrong.

      • sam

        At Brilliant light power presentation in Irving California Mills said the U.S
        Navy told them they would be
        interested when they had a functioning Sun Cell.

        • HS61AF91

          tks, I’ll pass that on.

        • Bob Greenyer

          As will everyone else.

          • Bob Greenyer

            We need to see if it does something first

          • Thomas Kaminski

            In 2007 I led a group of students in testing solar thermal arrays. Calorimetry was very important. To measure the solar array output, we used a pressure/flow controlled pump, a vane-type flow meter, and mixer/RTD temperature sensors on the input and output side of the arrays. In order to test the array, we had to control the input water temperature at a precise level over the ambient air temperature. We used three 7500 Watt heaters connected to 208V three-phase power inputs and then to a 3-phase rectifier bridge. The DC output of the rectifier bridge was then pulse-width modulated with an IGBT transistor switch to control the temperature. At a flow rate of about 3 Gallons per minute, we could raise water temperature instantly (almost) about 75 Degrees F with about 18KW of electrical power in. Here is a link to a technical presentation with pictures of some of the apparatus:

            https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0I7pqe_KM9tZElyNzVRZ01XRXM

            I would suggest that you use a constant rate (volumetric) pump to deliver water to the reactors, carefully measuring the input and output water temperature. Have the same water flow into an “instant-water-heater” with a measured amount of power in. Then measure the output water temperature. The Reactor thermal output is simply the ratio of the Delta-T from the reactor divided by the Delta-T from the electrical heater times the electrical heater power. Divide that number by the total electrical input power to drive the reaction and you get COP.

            The heaters we purchased were simple consumer items made for small water flow heaters, such as the sink in a cabin. To handle the 2.8 GPM, we plumbed three heaters in parallel. As I recall, they were less than $100 each.

            Static mixers are very important to accurately measure the water temperature and should be applied just upstream of the temperature sensors. You can purchase them, or make them yourself. A series of disks zig-zagging in a tube will suffice. For the most accurate temperature sensors, we used 100 Ohm European curve platinum wire RTDs. Our flow meter was a $1000 device with good accuracy — but you do not really need to measure the flow except for an approximate measure. Your proposed technique of diverting water to a bucket and weighing it is probably good enough. We used a 5 gallon pail and a stop watch to cross-check the flow before and after the testing run.

          • Bob Greenyer

            This is all good ideas, however the space and time is constrained.

            Out current approach is to have temperature (digital and analogue) on input and output and check valves either end with flow going from mains through reactor into buckets on scales. Alternate buckets as they fill.

            In addition, a clamp on thermal kWh meter which ultrasonically monitors flow and has a temp clamp on for input as well. This can be cross-referenced to the weighed water and temperatures collected digitally and the monitored analogue thermometers.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            It will likely work, but my experience says that using the mains pressure with a valve to regulate flow is problematic. We switched to a float-controlled tank with a static head followed by a valve to control flow. The mains pressure was all over the place. The float valve and tank were a distance above the device to set the static head pressure and thus, even out the flow through the flow-control valve.. Also, do use static mixers in the flow stream to make sure you are measuring an accurate temperature. See Wikipedia — simple to design from a series of right and left twisted metal in a tube:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_mixer

          • Bob Greenyer

            Suhas said he also used a tank in his tests and so that is possibly an option.

        • doug marker

          And that is not unreasonable an approach. What we do know of LENR & even Mills theories, is that few people in the world can claim to be expert on all or even most aspects of the technology processes and more so the theories. It is near impossible for businesses (let alone us) to choose confidently based on proof of theories because they just aren’t in place.

          So for these revolutionary new energy advances we speak of, businesses and interested organisations can only really get involved based on observation and testing the devices and deciding they can manufacture and sell them.

          And, in the case of new energy, there are massive interests (both financial and political) that are directly opposed to any sudden shift away from oil as an instrument of foreign policy that they are not part of.

          Then there are the investors who have a vested interest in locking up any and all IP they can get their hands on. This happened in the IT / Computer industry – particular companies actively went to war in the 1990s & into the 2000s, seeking to secure all patents & IP they could and began a round of lawsuits and also sabotage. Back around 2002, Sun Microsystems was awarded a $3 billion US dept of justice settlement against Microsoft who had deliberately set out to corrupt the Java browser Sun had licensed to Microsoft.
          http://www.techlawjournal.com/courts/sunwvmsft/Default.htm

          Also in the 2000s IBM was sued for $2+ Billion by a company (Caldera Inc but later renamed TheSCOGroup) claiming that the operating system called Linux was stolen from ‘their’ Unix O/S and IBM was responsible. That case was thrown out when it was proved the renamed TheSCOGroup company didn’t own Unix. Unix was shown to be really owned by a company called Novell who had bought the real SCO and sold parts (but not Unix) to Caldera Inc). These cases were fought for Billions of dollars. Energy wars are likely to be fought for Trillions of $s.
          https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/03/linux-kernel-lawsuit-sco-v-ibm-is-alive-13-years-and-counting/

          Back to new energy. There is no real point in wheeling along journalists to early demos as no one who matters will listen. Only when people can see something working will we make any progress, but then the energy wars will begin. Do not imagine for an instant that there will or could be a happy glorious transition to a world of near free energy, without blood and guts on the floor.

          Doug Marker
          Sydney Australia

          • HS61AF91

            very true what happens when a new phenomenon splashes upon the world. Couple of things: (1)the devices produce ‘free’ energy; (2) the implementation could parallel what happened in India with Gandhi – peaceful resistance overcame the great colonial power.

      • sam

        Thanks for mentioning my name in
        Stars and Stripes today that just made my day.

        https://www.stripes.com/news/us/trump-tosses-obama-s-clean-energy-plan-embraces-coal-1.460984#.WORBMTys_YU

        Doug Marker a smart and wise
        fellow added another reply.

  • radvar

    Visuals. Not blueprints, but flow diagrams, with clear labels for the parts, and links to photos of the actual setup.

    People with expertise in the field can often keep all the associations in their heads. Adding more visuals could allow more of the less expert people to understand and meaningfully contribute, and the expert people to see relationships more quickly.

    Google apps has a very powerful drawing tool called draw.io that could be used in a collaborative way.

    I appreciate that it’s extra work, however, it could greatly increase knowledge sharing, and perhaps the work could be distributed to some of the lay audience.

    Perhaps that could be initiated by setting up a G-apps site for it, throwing in some starting materials and seeing what happens.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Perhaps we could use a standard off the shelf water energy flow meter such as this one

    goo.gl/Qx0akw

    (Suggested by Eros)

    goo.gl/Xac1E7

    goo.gl/Hk02Kx

    Our flow rate estimate is about 0.215m^3 / hour

    Minimum certified flow rate 0.006m^3 / hour ( 2.8% of our expected flow rate )

    Maximum short term flow rate 1.2m^3 / hour ( 465% of our expected flow rate )

    In this recording, the HVAC engineer describes ones that require no fitting and just clamp on to the inlet and outlet pipes to measure temperature and flow rate. Ultrasonics are used to determine flow rate in many cases which may present a problem depending on frequency – though may have a damped coupling to resolve issues if present.

    Here is a discussion on solutions with an HVAC engineer.

    https://goo.gl/FOjq1a

    • artefact

      I wonder if the ultrasonics from the reactor could distract the flow meter? Or perhaps vice versa?

      • John Littlemist

        Good point. There are flow meters that base their functionality on ultrasonics, like these:
        https://kamstrup.stockshed.com/water-meters/multical-21

      • Bob Greenyer

        Yes – we have been discussing that.

        We are going to get an ultrasonic microphone for all the tests and will look at if that will be a problem.

      • roseland67

        Bob,

        Positive displacing pumps in lieu of centrifugal would assist here.
        When rotating at pole speeds at rated frequency their output (gpm, lpm, etc)
        Is relatively fixed per their pump curves. It’s not perfect but could be a good check/balance when compared to a flow meter output, they should be close.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Schedule for next technical call. Most important outstanding questions please.

    NOTE: DATE WILL BE 6th (Thursday)

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/04d9b6e76850b498b667c1aa4a06726febd786e62fba8211ecf44ff9364cb3f8.png

    • psi2u2

      Godspeed, Bob.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Thanks

  • radvar

    To Bob G: I added instructions on how to set up a shared drawing environment, down below with the original posts on that topic.

  • Andy Kumar

    Bob, what happened to your Danish (?) project. Sorry, have not been following this.

    • Bob Greenyer

      The electrical department head was on Holiday so could not get permission to turn on the Model-T Alan Smith had donated whilst I was there.
      They lost the lab space due to repairs
      There was strong resistance by other heads of department and the deans to having LENR research conducted at the university
      Reason was – it is impossible so we can’t have that research being conducted here for fear of reputation damage
      They will be open to hosting working experiments when it is shown to be possible (just like every other man and their dog)

  • Bob Greenyer
  • Bob Greenyer

    ECCO – Why does the ultrasonically processed Nickel foil contain grains of Au, Pd and Ag?

    The ultrasonically plasma treated foil deposited in a Nickel Sulphate solution on Steel so the mix it was made from was

    Ni
    S
    H
    2H
    O

    on Steel https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d1daa43f17b2fb447052f8fa6c4b7a770f5a806bdd01b6dbc16d5c811f99ecd9.gif https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/254d29b8bcb2b3e22127e488c6c16e2dfef2b35baebde2f1072797c847f21e7f.jpg

    • LION

      Hi Bob, because this was sonically stimulated the ratio of the metals may continue to change even over short time scales until the peturbed Atoms settle, which can take a long time. The Russians are well aware of this, though they disbelieved it at first believing their instruments to be faulty, after many recalibrations they learned otherwise.

    • Future

      Roseland67, your company is also in stealth mode by not telling others about your activity. That’s completely fine, that’s how companies are running. Also, as an entrepreneur you are also in this community and you are aware of what’s going on in this space. My point is, as an entrepreneur you are in this space why not invite other industrial owners as this presentation for open community. It enhances community divergence and also open research get benefits from multitude thoughts and funds.

  • artefact

    ECCO foil and part processed fuel SEM & EDX

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovsi0Tr6pBs

  • Bob Greenyer

    Suhas was surprised, the analyst was very surprised… she said “you guys are modern day alchemists”

    I was only not so surprised because I has started to understand the work of Kenneth Shoulders and had seen the Adamenko work / Patent.

    I have read the WO 2016026720 A1 patent before – however, I do not think it adds much more than the Egely patent. In the case of the Egely patent ultrasonics is achieved as part of resonance in the acoustic resonator – so I am not sure that directly adding the ultrasonics is particularly novel rather than obvious.

    Since Egely patent maintenance patent has now lapsed – the concepts are now open source.

    Both Egely and Suhas embodiments appear far more efficient than this patent.

    Note that in this patent, embodiments also use microwaves – I had forgotten about this, but this adds another ‘working’ transmutator working with MW to the list.

  • Bob Greenyer

    1. Muons are heavy electrons.
    2. Muons cause shrinking of Deuterium such that it can fuse at room temperature (muon catalysed fusion)
    3. Shoulders says that charge clusters can be of any energy from 511keV (1 electron mass) up to 100billions.
    4. Evidence suggests that charge clusters can replace electrons
    5. This might result in a massive range of variously ‘shrunken’ hydrogen species (my hypothesis)

    This then blends ‘small’ hydrogen with Kenneth shoulders

    I says as much in this

    https://steemit.com/science/@homosymbion/ecco-could-it-work-like-this

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Bob, muons are not electrons…

      • Bob Greenyer

        @27m55s – What are charge clusters?

        KS “See and EVO is a cluster it’s a way of thinking of it, of
        electrons, and you know, in physics as well, you can get; cooper pairs,
        Muons (207 × electron), Tauons (3477.48 × electron)… they are all just
        clusters of electrons of a larger size – but heck, they rarely go above
        100s and I see them into the billions worth – no trouble at all. So I am working with a WAY upscale class of guys.

        Kenneth R. Shoulders 2010

        What do I know?

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Well, that’s a very exotic theory. But let’s say it was true, how would you explain that muons and tauons have still a single charge? And why don’t they decay into a bunch of electrons?

          • Bob Greenyer

            It’s the theory that got funded the longest.

            Mills might say “Electrons are not what people think they are”

            KS may have had his own opinion, but I think of it like a flywheel,

          • Bob Greenyer

            Mills might say “electrons are not what people think they are”

            I am not sure what KS would say other than the quote above from him.

            I think of electrons now as a kind of flywheel – regardless of how fast you spin a fly wheel, it is still a flywheel, but the stored energy is larger. Of course, I may be wrong, most likely am. There are only a few stable states observable outside of a nucleus.

          • Stephen

            Well I guess we all have our personal ideas and concepts. I tend to think of Electons as a fundamental quanta of energy spinning in a local frame of reference with a spin axis and an ortoganal 2D plane. And muons and tau particles being similar fundamental quanta of energy spining in one of the other two orthogonal axis in the same LFR that require higher energies relative to an external frame of reference. Creating incidentally 3 sets of orthogonal 2D planes and 3D consequences.. May be quarks are even similar but with off set rotation axis so requiring pairs of triplets to be stable. And transitions or decays or energy and states carried by Bosons are simply rotations or translations in the local frame of reference what we perceive as particles is how the local space time frame of reference is manifested twisted or translated relative to an external space time frame…if so perhaps the spinning quanta of energy is an EVO and all fundamental particles are EVO’s in some LFR.

            Of course I suspect this is all nonsense to a theoretical physicist probably correctly for all sorts of reasons but it’s good to think about ideas.

            Neutrinos from muon decay etc are detected though I think and even oscillate between flavours as has been used to explain the solar neutrino problem.

          • Bob Greenyer

            On Hutchinson effect

            #1986
            Canadian Scientific and Technical Intelligence Agency investigates Hutchison Effect. Further testing, leading to greater mastery of effect. North American and European laboratories indicate same results of atomic changes in samples.

            
700 demonstrations in 16 years.

            #1989
            Invited by European scientists to Austria and Germany. During 2-year period, *new discoveries in subatomic physics and in elimination of radioactivity*
            ——————————————————————————————
            Did we ever hear of these ‘new discoveries in subatomic physics’

    • Mike Phalen

      Test

  • Bob Greenyer

    SEM / EDX grouped into pdf for easy cross-referencing.

    https://goo.gl/7QBhqM

  • Future

    Roseland67, it’s not about one person. If one business person thinks nothing to see here then it’s up to him. But if you have group of people there then it might trigger interest among few of them even if it’s unsuccessful. The initial MFMP history clearly stats this, even though lot of academic people against this few of them continued their R&D. But, if MFMP decided to continue many many iterations until to find clear way and theory, then it might never be explored to outside world. It always good to explore your activity with outside world if you have something or if you see some anomaly. Then open community will it take it from their and we can see it’s evolution.

  • Bob Greenyer

    The Nickel is only meant as vacuum/hydrogen porous electrodes for the non-spark discharge and to contain the fuel in the reaction zone.

  • Bob Greenyer

    The way it is made – steemit blog post up and coming

  • Andreas Moraitis

    For example, its rest mass. Certainly, if you would accelerate an electron up to 0.99999c or so, it would become as ‘heavy’ as a resting muon. But its rest mass would still be 511keV, in comparison to the 105.7 MeV of the muon.

    • Bob Greenyer

      That’s what I thought Andreas, KS, who researched Charge Clusters for 33 years changed my understanding.

  • Stephen

    Hehe well I guess you would know… or was that around Jupiter?

  • Bob Greenyer

    ECCO – Making nickel foil for reactor discharge electrodes

    This article details the process to make the Nickel foil used in the ECCO reactor core that acts as an electrode and a breathable fuel barrier.

    https://steemit.com/science/@mfmp/ecco-making-nickel-foil-for-free-energy-reactor-discharge-electrodes

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