Rossi v. IH : New Pictures Posted in Exhibit

There has been a lot of discussion and debate about technical details of the 1-year E-Cat test that have so far been revealed so far in the court case. To add to the volume of data is a new document posted in the court docket titled “Supplemental Expert Report of Rick A. Smith, P.E.” who was acting as a witness for the Industrial Heat team.

I am not going to attempt to critique this report, but I thought it would be interesting to readers who have been analyzing evidence since it includes some new images that might be helpful for people trying to analyze the situation.

The document is 245-10 in the Google Drive folder here; I have also downloaded it at this link: http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/235-10-Exhibit-10.pdf

235-10 – Exhibit 10

Below is just one of the photos in the exhibit which gives a view from ‘behind the wall’, where the facility for JM Products was located.

  • Bob Greenyer

    What is the beige thing that appears to go into the next door unit?

  • Bob Greenyer

    What is the beige thing that appears to go into the next door unit?

    • LukeDC

      Water dispenser without the bottle?

  • psi2u2

    Pgs 17-18 estimate the the total maximum capacity of Rossi’s four units at only 483 KW thermal.

    Can that be correct?

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If there are no other pumps and the pumps have not been ‚tuned’, I would say yes. This problem is known for a long time, BTW.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Andreas Moraitis,

        Rossi told me there was another high capacity pump, other than the visible pumps on the Tigers. Big Red pump would do ~80% of the TOTAL required water volume and the other on each Tiger would maintain the individual, reactor unique, internal water level.

        Which is what I drew a long time ago. Now with the volume and placement of the main Condensate return pump, the diagram can be further completed.

        Bottom line is the dual flow Condensate system and the 2 tier pumping can very easily deliver the required daily litres of water, despite that the IH Expert claims.

        Please note the Dual Condensate Flow that supplied each of the Tigers, partly from the Red 17GPM pump and partly from the 6 per Tiger topping up pumps.

        Latest Tiger based ECat system schematic:

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e9599a2de47934a5a8315992a38d5229a1d3116bcba790dfad38e788e0c739bd.png

        • psi2u2

          Thanks for the further info. It certainly makes sense that if you expected to put out a MW, you would install excess capacity in redundant multiple pumping systems. Why, then, is IH ignorant of this if it is the case?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Psi2u2,

            IH seems to ignore a lot of data that is inconvenient to their story.

          • Without the plans and specifications to the system you cannot know the details of the system even with these pictures. There are different types of heat exchangers. Where they using water or glycol in the heat exchanger? Where there wireless temperature and pressure monitors throughout the system? Ambient Temp? What was the temperature set at? What was the return temperature, on both sides? Once you have all of these variables it’s pretty easy for a Mechanical Engineer with experience to determine if any monkey business was going on with the conservation of energy equations.

          • AbyssUK

            Counter point, the 4 insulated pipes were not to remove heat, but to add it from another source. The black box doesn’t contain a heat exchanger, it is a heat exchanger! It adds heat to the water travelling past the tigers to give the impression of excess heat. So as not to show on the power usage charts I guess it was powered by a diesel generator. Window was removed to get the exhaust fumes out, this is why it was so hastily repaired before inspection because they didn’t want anybody to know about it. Before anybody says it a modern diesel gen can be almost noiseless.

            This is why the black box is so insulated to keep the heat in to warm the pipes, the small sections of pipes have been removed by rossi because this is where the sensor/control systems for the heat “input” where so the heating could be controlled.

          • Diesel Generator! That’s ridiculous! Yeah, I bet they couldn’t hear or see that!

          • Ged

            And where would the diesel needed to run such a ~980 KW generator come from (subtracting what we know was used via the Utility)? That would be 1.5 liters of diesel used per minute (using the most generous energy density for deisel), or 1 gallon every 2.5 minutes, or 576 gallons per day, or 13.7 barrels of diesel to ship in and out per day. That would be ~$1,343 per day in fuel costs.

            Do you see a diesel generator, barrels, shipping, refueling equipment, and man power around to pull this off? And no diesel generator is silent by any means, particularly not at these levels.

          • AbyssUK

            So, you believe there is no way extra energy could have been put down those pipes to fool pennon, perhaps not a diesel generator, but could there be any other method ? What I am trying to figure out is why these small sections of pipe were removed… if it was just heat exhaust pipe work… why pull them out? Also we have no idea what was in the building next door.

            If this is a con, then as few as people as possible must be in on it and the others fooled, could Penon have been fooled ?

            Is there any other way the energy could have been coming into that black box ?

          • Engineer48

            Hi AUK,

            Please look at the totality of the data I have presented, which just about totally refutes the claims Smith and other have made.

            While I was not there to see and measure the plant in real time, what the various images do show is a system engineered and built that should be capable of achieving the stated Penon claims.

            I have as of yet to see ANY image that does not support this is a real LENR 1MW generator and that it ran for over 1 year, many times in long term SSM mode.

            Please remember that back in 2011, Rossi demoed 5 1/2 hours of SSM mode operation of a 1MW ECat reactor, so I have little issue with output continuing when power input was reduced as the ECat plant is designed to maintain the output 1MW of energy, with varying reactor numbers.

          • Obvious

            How did the condensate get from the twin condenser and fans into the water tank in Bologna?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Here is Mats video report of the 5 1/2 hours of 500kW SSM:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lOYlFyotXk

            I assume there was a small pump inside the heat exchanger area that did the work to lift the condensate enough to flow into the condensate tank.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            After further checking I found this image that shows the condensate from the dual heat exchangers used at Bologna in 2011 flowed directly back to the condensate tanks without any pumping assistance.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/250284ac8b91bf1c17105d0fee6d78fb1ee8e014c1d9ec07f72d6a5d0d61d6c9.png

          • Obvious

            Amazing. Up hill, to the 3/4 level of the condensers, at the water tank end.

          • Obvious

            There are no pumps in the walled off condenser area. The pipes/hoses can be followed from the radiators to the wall, and from the wall to the tank.

          • AbyssUK

            I’ve seen your take and its very convincing that it was actually a superheated steam system and you’ve done a great bit of detective work with what you have. But we have missing pieces!

            We still have no idea what those 4 pipes do or if a heat exchanger was installed on the mezzanine or not, I don’t think the photos show missing window glass and why are the pipe sections missing!

            The temp and pressure data is wonky to say the least, now in your superheated steam system if the power went down and the cats gave rise in temperature as shown by the data, you’d get a pressure rise.. which is not seen in the data. Indeed for 1.5hrs straight the pressure remains at 1.0028 bar precisely with no fluctuations. No pumps running no power….*has a thought*.. was the gauge powered ??? Is it just a data gap ?? Could the gauge for some reason just have reported its last reading continuously over the power outage ?

          • Ged

            You tell me: how do we make usable energy at this scale? The electric mains weren’t used for 1 MW heat, so that is out, nor natural gas utility. Combustion wasn’t used, so that is out, and there are no solar panels or wind turbines around (and you would need a lot of both for the required power, and they are unstable sources that would not give steady power and data). What’s left? Surprisingly, nothing. Other than nuclear. If you want to posit the black JMP stuff were nuclear reactors, be my guest, just note the new pictures we have from Smith.

            We do know exactly what was next door to JMP’s unit: and you can check street view and Florida business records. All unrelated stuff from before them, and we see no physical connection between units (look at the pictures, do you see sufficient piping for your theory breaking through the concrete walls?). Moving the problem doesn’t solve nor hide it (still have to make that energy!), and remember that JMP does not own the space it is in, it’s only leasing it, so the ultimate owners of the complex are watching everything.

            So, be careful. Just like “nearly noisless” diesel generators are a lie meant to snare the oh so gullible consumer, you should do the homework to verify any claims as far as you are able so you don’t fall for “I have a bridge to sell you” theories.

          • After reading the court exhibits its clear to me that Industrial Heat is content to be a Patent Troll. They want the field to succeed but only with their consent. They didn’t want the test to be successful and are fine to sandbag Rossi and others until it serves their goals not to. They must be backed by some dark money.

          • Omega Z

            That became very clear when the docs revealed the IP trap mentality. Patent every LENR IP use imaginable. LENR heater, aircraft engines, turbines, heat absorbtion chillers, desalination, ect, etc, etc… Obviously, there are many ways to accomplish these things, but patent the most probable & obvious techniques and it detours others and leads to license deals. If all else fails, they claim infringement and legal percussions.

            I also think Tom Darden and friends inc are just the public front for those standing in the shadows. They’ve been instructed from the beginning to connect with Rossi and monitor the situation. (Seriously, THEY approached Rossi. Not the other way around.)

            Just an Observation:

            Anyone else notice how Bill Gates, the Page brothers and others have behind the scences LENR connections. Yet, no direct visable links to Darden. Doesn’t that seem strange. On the other hand, We see Darden having meetings at the White House and meetings with Chinese Government Officials.

          • psi2u2

            So this is all a giant and carefully premeditated scam on Rossi’s part? Because that seems to be the only conclusion from your comment.

  • psi2u2

    Pgs 17-18 estimate the the total maximum capacity of Rossi’s four units at only 483 KW thermal.

    Can that be correct?

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If there are no other pumps and the pumps have not been ‚tuned’, I would say yes. This problem is known for a long time, BTW.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Andreas Moraitis,

        Rossi told me there was another high capacity pump, other than the visible pumps on the Tigers. Big Red pump would do ~80% of the TOTAL required water volume and the other on each Tiger would maintain the individual, reactor unique, internal water level.

        Which is what I drew a long time ago. Now with the volume and placement of the main Condensate return pump, the diagram can be further completed.

        Bottom line is the dual flow Condensate system and the 2 tier pumping can very easily deliver the required daily litres of water, despite that the IH Expert claims.

        Please note the Dual Condensate Flow that supplied each of the Tigers, partly from the Red 17GPM pump and partly from the 6 per Tiger topping up pumps.

        Latest Tiger based ECat system schematic:

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e9599a2de47934a5a8315992a38d5229a1d3116bcba790dfad38e788e0c739bd.png

        • Bruce__H

          In his supplemental report (235-10), Rick Smith describes the condensate return line and reservoir tank in the following way …

          “The condensate return line from the black box back to the E-Cat dumps into a tank in the middle of the ECat box. This tank is eventually vented to atmosphere. So, the pressure in the condensate return tank is atmospheric, or 0 barg.”

          If Smith is right about this configuration and the reservoir is at atmospheric pressure, how does the water get to the BF units if not through the pumps?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bruce_H,

            The vent goes through the roof of the ECat container, so it is above the max fill height of the highest Tiger. This allows the pumps to fill the Tigers with condensate from the internal tank.

          • Bruce__H

            Hi Engineer,

            So the internal reservoir is never empty when in operation? The picture I am getting is that the big pump in the JMP container pumps water into the reservoir which totally fills up and then overflows up a pipe (that eventually vents out the top) as far as the Tigers. But the Tigers are stacked vertically and if the eventual level is high enough to partly fill the top Tiger, wouldn’t the lower Tigers have to run flooded?

            This would all be a lot easier if Mr. Rossi would just provide IH with a hydraulic schematic of how the ecat plant is supposed to work. I don’t see what would be secret about that. I also don’t understand Smith’s observation that the ecat return is continuous with the plenum steam riser emerging from the Tigers.
            .

          • Bruce__H

            Answering my own question …

            I suppose that if every Tiger had an adjustable flow regulator between it and the reservoir vertical pipe, then at steady state operation you would just adjust each regulator by hand until the sight glasses each showed half-level. Start-up and close-down would be a challenge though because you would have to be constantly adjusting everything.

          • Bruce__H

            Wait. If the condensate return tank has a had of pressure on it doesn’t that mean that the condensate pipe must be full at the flowmeter?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bruce_H,

            Yup. Got it in one.

            All that talk and claims from others about a partly filled flow meter wiped away by the IH Expert Smith. Bet he doesn’t realise what he has done?

          • Bruce__H

            Well all of the ideas abut the condensate return tank being under pressure and there being a vented pipe that rises to feed the Tigers is your guesswork. It may not be true. In the picture of the pipe shown in Smith’s report (235-10 page 15) it isn’t even connected to some of the Tigers. I think that represents the configuration of the ecat plant on the final day of operation soI am not sure what is going on there.

            I direct your attention again to Smith’s statement that the condensate return pipe directly feeds the steam riser and not the return tank. You have not taken that seriously yet, but I think we can’t just kick it to the side. Smith definitely knows that this is a consequential observation and I think one of the consequences may be for the flowmeter.

        • psi2u2

          Thanks for the further info. It certainly makes sense that if you expected to put out a MW, you would install excess capacity in redundant multiple pumping systems. Why, then, is IH ignorant of this if it is the case?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Psi2u2,

            IH seems to ignore a lot of data that is inconvenient to their story.

  • Miles

    Love the red arrows. Pointing here n there. Very useful. Slow news e-Cat day.

  • Miles

    Love the red arrows. Pointing here n there. Very useful. Slow news e-Cat day.

  • Bruce__H

    Pictures in Rick Smith’s supplemental report show a 32 l/h upper limit on the amount of water the pumps used to service the Big Frankie (BF) units can handle. This sets up a huge mountain for Rossi to overcome. There are 24 pumps and together they can only supply the BF units with 768 kg of water per hour. But if this is true, then how can twice as much water (1500 l/h) be appearing in the condensate return pipe? No other problem is worth even considering until this one is addressed. It’s is a showstopper!

    I note, that use of the Big Frankies were not Rossi’s original conception for the 1MW system. They were supposed to be a backup. Their use was forced on him when the original small units that are scattered throughout the ecat plant had to be abandoned because of electrical problems. If memory serves there were about 50 of these units. If these smaller units use the same type of pump as the BFs (does anyone know?) then together they could have pumped 50 x 32 l/h = 1600 l/h which is just about exactly what Rossi says came down the condensate return pipe and is what he says corresponds to 1 MW!

    Apparently once Rossi abandoned the smaller ecat units he made the best of the situation with the BF units. But unless there is a big surprise on the horizon (Rossi altered the pumps? or they can pump above their labelled limit?) the best isn’t good enough.

    If the pumps were altered or can really pump at twice their rating this would be dead easy to investigate.

  • Luca Meli

    This is an huge Amen on Rossi claims

  • Luca Meli

    If Rossi claims were true, why he didn’t make a setup to show it online to the crowd and a lottery to visit the site of the little demo reactor among people who apply to it? A multi million project cannot fear about a few dollars for this setup. This is a day 0 for Rossi. He has a few days to gain his credibility back. Time for suspect secrecy is over, dear Andrea Rossi

    • Hi all

      In reply to Luca Meli

      The same reason that the independent report was held back until the court case, IH had Rossi under an NDA bind.

      Kind Regards walker

  • Engineer48

    There were 4 insulated pipes leaving the JM Black Box, going up the wall and across the roof as attached.

    Maybe they turn right and enter the upper floor?

    For sure those pipes are there and had a function which seems to have been totally ignored by the IH expert.

    Should add the Red pump on the Condensate line can do 17GPM or 92,670 l/day, which is way more than 32kl/day and also seems to have been totally ignored in the Experts report.

    As I shared some time ago, the pumps on the Tigers are there to do reactor water control and do not pump the entire volume. Rossi told me there was another much bigger pump that handled the bulk of the condensate flow and now we can see it and know it’s specs.

    I’m really amazed at how much the IH Expert ignored and never even though to explore that the SuperHeater steam was produced INSIDE the Tigers as was done in the earlier squarish ECat reactors.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6d35b188ddb078ed3257e5495ffce0298c6566a19b585f4096a773cb8cde79cb.png
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5ad9e885002315d13c5d28e19dcb1dcc5ef0d02592b59273c427d23a41b9293f.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/22141b4f983af4dca7c79c38ecf2e461fb762648474426b12b8b786dc205b6d4.png
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7944127cc7c0f70872616c92678c2c8c72fa2ef35577f6e02e5e9d5ed1d66974.png

    • Engineer48

      Revised image showing how excess heat was moved from inside the JM Black Box.

      Totally amazed the IH Expert missed those pipes?????? Very clear that the 4 black and insulated pipes rose up the wall, turned 9- deg to transit the roof and finally ended up at some system to dump the excess heat.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/51a9655482a0291c2ccef9d8117d6ebe7b0851f5d4a0a561ea408e11a38494d0.png

      • Observer

        The four pipes appear to have their bottom sections removed.
        Is this picture dated after the 1 year test was finished?
        I note that the ceiling fans in the back are turned off.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I agree about the red pump, provided that the auxiliary tank was closed and tight enough to resist the pressure. What is not clear to me is the function of the loop around the pump. A safety mechanism, perhaps?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Andrea Moraitis,

        It is a safety bypass if the pump stops and there is still pressure in the heat exchanger.

        BTW that Red Pump, located where it was at the OUTLET of the heat exchanger, would easily suck the 1 atmo superheated steam from the ECat and through the heat exchanger. Which is another point totally ignored by the IH Expert.

    • wpj

      Maybe they need to employ you on the Rossi side!

      Good to see you back in action.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Wpj,

        Only here for a short visit as I had to respond to the claims made by the IH Expert, who apparently missed a lot of understanding of what he saw. Plus there was NEW data to add / update my Tiger system schematic. Data which supports what Rossi told me and I shared here.

        The disclosure of the large primary pump on the Condensate return line added data that:

        1) Shows why 1 atmo superheated steam pressure at the ECat is more than enough to be sucked into the heat exchanger by the action of the Red pump on the OUTLET side of the heat exchanger that will create a lower than 1 atmo pressure at the Red pumps INLET.

        2) The total pumping capacity of the 24 topping up pumps per tiger and the Red primary pump is way more than enough flow capacity to very easily achieve the desired 32k L/Day of Condensate.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ff95564ed0cfe5702c83596415c53ec76f0a7656bfe7e383494266c0fae4bd35.png

        • wpj

          Thanks for the response to the 2 points; your insight is always appreciated.

          So, as I understand it, you are saying that the Grundfos pump has sufficient power to pump the condensed water that it actually also pulls the steam through the system resulting in the “0 bar” pressure reading.

          Doesn’t look to different from my Grundfos which has to pump to about 40ft height from the basement!

          • Engineer48

            Hi Wpj,

            I’m not a steam engineer, so only answering with a gut feel, but yes I expect that pump has enough guts to do that job. It has a 19 ft head, so not as much as your pump but then the vertical fluid movement in the ECat system is not a lot.

            As of yet we have no info on how the secondary heat exchanger was connected to the primary unit inside the JM Black Box but I suspect those 4 vertical black and insulated pipes have a story to tell.

          • wpj

            Many thanks.

        • wpj

          Another daft question.

          Jed R has gone ad nauseam about the quarter full pump and rust stains on the floor.

          Does this put that argument to bed (even if few believed it)?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Wpj,

            Need to see a picture of the flow meter so to understand where it was installed in the system to make more comments there.

            But with the main red pump doing upto 17 GPM (92,600 L/Day), with an upto 19 ft head, would suggest there is more enough flow to keep all the pipes full and to suck in the 1 atmo superheated steam from the ECat.

            Do note this pumps happily runs with boiling water flowing through it. Tough little pump.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/22141b4f983af4dca7c79c38ecf2e461fb762648474426b12b8b786dc205b6d4.png

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I think it is mainly the partial vacuum due to condensation that would „suck“ the steam into the heat exchanger. The pump could suck only very little steam since the volume of the moved water is much smaller than the volume of the steam. The foremost task of the pump appears to be “pushing” the water forward, in order to overcome the pressure difference between the heat exchanger outlet and the inlet of the plant.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Andreas Moraitis,

            As the pump removes Condensed water from the bottom of the heat exchanger, it will reduce the heat exchanger inlet pressure, which will draw the superheated steam from the ECat toward it. No need for the Red pump to suck steam as liquid water, around 65C, exists at the bottom of the heat exchanger.

            As I’m not a steam engineer, I’ll leave it to others to do the math. Do note that earlier “Steamies” did calc the pressure differential over the length of the steam pipe between the ECat and the JM Black Box only needs to be like 0.2 barg. Which would mean an heat exchanger inlet pressure of -0.2 barg would be enough to draw superheated steam at 0 barg from the outlet of the ECat.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I agree that pumping the water out will reduce the pressure a bit, but condensation would reduce it much more (1000 cm^3 steam at 1 barG correspond to roughly 0.6 cm^3 liquid water). So I think that the pressure reduction by the pump is negligible in this context.

    • wpj

      A question though; Penon states that the amount of distilled water to top up the system was noted by hand. Surely these dosing pumps would have registered that, or are these just to dose from a reservoir which was topped up manually?

    • Ged

      So many more fantastic pictures, as expected, and we see the other side of the plant finally. Thanks for the annotation work, Engineer!

  • Engineer48

    There were 4 insulated pipes leaving the JM Black Box, going up the wall and across the roof as attached. Maybe they turn right and enter the upper floor? For sure those pipes are there and had a function which seems to have been totally ignored by the IH expert. It appears Rossi removed the 4 short sections of pipe that would have connected the vertical wall mounted black pipes to the lower biege air pump that was probably used to control the temp inside the JM Black Box and to xfer any excess heat to the mezzanine heat exchanger.

    Should add the Red pump on the Condensate return line can do 17GPM or 92,670 l/day, which is way more than 32kl/day and also seems to have been totally ignored in the Experts report.

    As I shared some time ago, the pumps on the Tigers are there to do reactor water control and do not pump the entire volume. Rossi told me there was another much bigger pump that handled the bulk of the condensate flow and now we can see it and know it’s specs.

    I’m really amazed at how much the IH Expert ignored and never even though to explore that the SuperHeater steam was produced INSIDE the Tigers as was done in the earlier squarish ECat reactors.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e9599a2de47934a5a8315992a38d5229a1d3116bcba790dfad38e788e0c739bd.png
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5ad9e885002315d13c5d28e19dcb1dcc5ef0d02592b59273c427d23a41b9293f.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/22141b4f983af4dca7c79c38ecf2e461fb762648474426b12b8b786dc205b6d4.png
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/51a9655482a0291c2ccef9d8117d6ebe7b0851f5d4a0a561ea408e11a38494d0.png

    • coolabuelo

      Great to have you back Engineer48, your input is always informative precise and clear.

    • Engineer48

      Revised image showing how excess heat was moved from inside the JM Black Box.

      Totally amazed the IH Expert missed those pipes?????? Very clear that the 4 black and insulated pipes rose up the wall, turned 9- deg to transit the roof and finally ended up at some system to dump the excess heat.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/51a9655482a0291c2ccef9d8117d6ebe7b0851f5d4a0a561ea408e11a38494d0.png

      • Observer

        The four pipes appear to have their bottom sections removed.
        Is this picture dated after the 1 year test was finished?
        I note that the ceiling fans in the back are turned off.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I agree about the red pump, provided that the auxiliary tank was closed and tight enough to resist the pressure. What is not clear to me is the function of the loop around the pump. A safety mechanism, perhaps?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Andrea Moraitis,

        It looks to be a safety bypass that if the pump stops and there is still pressure in the heat exchanger it can escape into the Condensate return line.

        BTW that Red Pump, located where it was at the OUTLET of the heat exchanger, would easily suck the 1 atmo superheated steam from the ECat and through the heat exchanger. Which is another point totally ignored by the IH Expert.

        • clovis ray

          Thanks E48 nice summery .

    • wpj

      Maybe they need to employ you on the Rossi side!

      Good to see you back in action.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Wpj,

        Only here for a short visit as I had to respond to the claims made by the IH Expert, who apparently missed a lot of understanding of what he saw. Plus there was NEW data to add / update my Tiger system schematic. Data which supports what Rossi told me and I shared here.

        The disclosure of the large primary pump on the Condensate return line added data that:

        1) Shows why 1 atmo superheated steam pressure at the ECat is more than enough to be sucked into the heat exchanger by the action of the Red pump on the OUTLET side of the heat exchanger that will create a lower than 1 atmo pressure at the Red pumps INLET.

        2) The total pumping capacity of the 24 topping up pumps per tiger and the Red primary pump is way more than enough flow capacity to very easily achieve the desired 32k L/Day of Condensate.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ff95564ed0cfe5702c83596415c53ec76f0a7656bfe7e383494266c0fae4bd35.png

        • wpj

          Thanks for the response to the 2 points; your insight is always appreciated.

          So, as I understand it, you are saying that the Grundfos pump has sufficient power to pump the condensed water that it actually also pulls the steam through the system resulting in the “0 bar” pressure reading.

          Doesn’t look to different from my Grundfos which has to pump to about 40ft height from the basement!

          • Engineer48

            Hi Wpj,

            I’m not a steam engineer, so only answering with a gut feel, but yes I expect that pump has enough guts to do that job. It has a 19 ft head, so not as much as your pump but then the vertical fluid movement in the ECat system is not a lot.

            As of yet we have no info on how the secondary heat exchanger was connected to the primary unit inside the JM Black Box but I suspect those 4 vertical black and insulated pipes have a story to tell.

          • wpj

            Many thanks.

        • wpj

          Another daft question.

          Jed R has gone ad nauseam about the quarter full pump and rust stains on the floor.

          Does this put that argument to bed (even if few believed it)?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Wpj,

            Need to see a picture of the flow meter so to understand where it was installed in the system to make more comments there.

            But with the main red pump doing upto 17 GPM (92,600 L/Day), with an upto 19 ft head, would suggest there is more enough flow to keep all the pipes full and to suck in the 1 atmo superheated steam from the ECat.

            Do note this pumps happily runs with boiling water flowing through it. Tough little pump.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/22141b4f983af4dca7c79c38ecf2e461fb762648474426b12b8b786dc205b6d4.png

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I think it is mainly the partial vacuum due to condensation that would „suck“ the steam into the heat exchanger. The pump could suck only very little steam since the volume of the moved water is much smaller than the volume of the steam. The foremost task of the pump appears to be “pushing” the water forward, in order to overcome the pressure difference between the heat exchanger outlet and the inlet of the plant.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Andreas Moraitis,

            For sure condensation will cause reduced heat exchanger inlet pressure. Likewise as the pump removes Condensed water from the bottom of the heat exchanger, it will reduce the heat exchanger inlet pressure, which will draw the superheated steam from the ECat toward it. No need for the Red pump to suck steam as liquid water, around 65C, exists at the bottom of the heat exchanger.

            As I’m not a steam engineer, I’ll leave it to others to do the math. Do note that earlier “Steamies” did calc the pressure differential over the length of the steam pipe between the ECat and the JM Black Box only needs to be like 0.2 barg. Which would mean an heat exchanger inlet pressure of -0.2 barg would be enough to draw superheated steam at 0 barg from the outlet of the ECat.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I agree that pumping the water out will reduce the pressure a bit, but condensation would reduce it much more (1000 cm^3 steam at 1 barG correspond to roughly 0.6 cm^3 liquid water). So I think that the pressure reduction by the pump is negligible in this context.

    • wpj

      A question though; Penon states that the amount of distilled water to top up the system was noted by hand. Surely these dosing pumps would have registered that, or are these just to dose from a reservoir which was topped up manually?

    • Ged

      So many more fantastic pictures, as expected, and we see the other side of the plant finally. Thanks for the annotation work, Engineer!

  • DrD

    A mute point.
    The author clearly doesn’t understand “the English system”.
    Edit: I assume he means “imperial system”.

    Since about 1970 (I forget the exact date), the system of units formally legislated in England was and still is the “SI” system, similar but not the same as the MKS system.

    • jimbo92107

      The mime attorney pranced and gesticulated in the direction of the defendant. His meaning was clear, but his point was mute.

      • PappyYokum

        Yeah. The word is “moot.”

  • AbyssUK

    Wow this report is damning in multiple ways. (lack of steam traps (p19), reported temperature rises with no pressure rises (p14), ridiculous 4 decimal places for temp/pressure readings (p12), the thermal momentum argument (p13) and the too good to be true fact that the measured supply just happens to be the same as what a found return pump can easily supply (p20) )

    I am now pretty confident that Rossi was hiding something during this testing or hasn’t a clue about pressure and temperature monitoring.

    I see Engineer48 has explaind the pump, but the lack of traps ? just very bad design ??, then the temp rise with no resulting pressure rise ? the thermal momentum argument ?

    Oh and the lack of evidence that any heat exchanger was on the mezzanine ?

    • Engineer48

      Hi AbyssUK,

      Please don’t ignore the hard evidence of the 4 thermally insulated pipes running up the wall and the across the roof.

      They were not put there for no reason.

      BTW any steam that made it back to the internal ECat holding tank would be very quickly turned into water.

  • Engineer48

    Another image of the 4 pipes rising up from the JM Black Box. Needed to dig into the black inside the mezzanine door image to clearly see them.

    Still find it amazing the IH Expert never mentions these very obvious and hard to ignore pipes.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a057921b7c57fc3cbc4b27301088b65b06a98497df6a6f4abd3c0fbb1637cc5d.png
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/54c99c3834d5d3b5492fb1f08d0023218c5f75298bf34233e08f9d5af62d46ae.png

    • I think we need to be careful about when pictures were taken. This one I believe is from Wong’s visit, well after the test ended.

      These pipes may be for the Quark X experiments and I cannot see them in the pictures taken during and just after the 1 MW test (though it’s hard to see that area in the earlier pics).

      • Engineer48

        Hi Lenr G,

        Why would the QuarkX tests need 4 fairly large pipes to take away a few 100 Watts? And why would the QuarkX tests be conducted inside the JM highly insulated Black Box?

        • I know that you know that I don’t know the answers to those questions.

          But we do know when this picture was taken, that those pipes are not visible in earlier pictures and that the Quark X experiment with Gullstrom happened in this warehouse recently.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Lenr G,

            I always assumed the QuarkX tests happened in Rossi 20ft container as that is where he had his test equipment.

            No way will what Rossi has shared about the QuarkX experiments require those 4 pipes and the beige heat extraction system that is attached to the door end of the JM Black Box.

            But YES any dates we can pin down will help.

      • Ged

        You are quite right, we definitely need to carefully compare with the pictures from before the test if we want to nail it down.

    • psi2u2

      Engineer, one thing that even I noticed about the report — and I am about as far from qualified on these topics as you *are* qualified — is the comparison of Rossi’s system here to a “properly” configured “conventional steam system,” as if this comparison in itself meant something. This and other points seemed tendentious to me.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        237 (by Defendants), PDF page 8:

        „Plaintiffs claim to have invented a technology called the “E-Cat” capable of violating the law of conservation of energy by producing far more energy than it consumes.“

        Rossi’s reactors are thought to convert nuclear binding energy into other forms of energy (mainly heat). That is in principle the same what happens in the sun or in nuclear reactors. No violation of conservation of energy required.

        I hesitate to use the “i”-word, but in this case it would appear highly appropriate.

        • Ged

          It is a junk statement, and whoever wrote it should feel ashamed. A car doesn’t spend more energy than it produces when it burns gas. LENR is burning binding energy in the form of nucleons, as you point out–there is a consumed fuel as with any energy releasing process. I wonder if the judge or defense lawyers will crack their knuckles for such a bone headed statement, but I doubt anyone will even pay attention to or care about it.

          • psi2u2

            I have to agree. Its the most primitive form of defending the ‘known’ from the ‘unknown’ – in this case an absurd contention that LENR ‘violates the law of conservation of energy.’

          • Engineer48

            Psi2u2,

            It is a pitty when a fellow engineer takes up such work and starts out with an assumption it can’t work as it violates the conservation of energy.

  • Engineer48

    Another image of the 4 pipes rising up from the JM Black Box. Needed to dig into the black inside the mezzanine door image to clearly see them.

    Still find it amazing the IH Expert never mentions these very obvious and hard to ignore pipes.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a057921b7c57fc3cbc4b27301088b65b06a98497df6a6f4abd3c0fbb1637cc5d.png
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/54c99c3834d5d3b5492fb1f08d0023218c5f75298bf34233e08f9d5af62d46ae.png

    • I think we need to be careful about when pictures were taken. This one I believe is from Wong’s visit, well after the test ended.

      These pipes may be for the Quark X experiments and I cannot see them in the pictures taken during and just after the 1 MW test (though it’s hard to see that area in the earlier pics).

      • Engineer48

        Hi Lenr G,

        Why would the QuarkX tests need 4 fairly large pipes to take away a few 100 Watts? And why would the QuarkX tests be conducted inside the JM highly insulated Black Box?

        • I know that you know that I don’t know the answers to those questions.

          But we do know when this picture was taken, that those pipes are not visible in earlier pictures and that the Quark X experiment with Gullstrom happened in this warehouse recently.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Lenr G,

            I always assumed the QuarkX tests happened in Rossi 20ft container as that is where he had his test equipment.

            No way will what Rossi has shared about the QuarkX experiments require those 4 pipes and the beige heat extraction system that is attached to the door end of the JM Black Box.

            But YES any dates we can pin down will help.

      • Ged

        You are quite right, we definitely need to carefully compare with the pictures from before the test if we want to nail it down.

    • psi2u2

      Engineer, one thing that even I noticed about the report — and I am about as far from qualified on these topics as you *are* qualified — is the comparison of Rossi’s system here to a “properly” configured “conventional steam system,” as if this comparison in itself meant something. This and other points seemed tendentious to me.

  • Engineer48
    • Ged

      Yep, that looks like it, based on what we know of the layout and what has been described. Wish the pics weren’t so grainy, as my eyes can’t be sure it isn’t a valve, but the head looks round like a meter.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I would hope that it is rather located at the deepest point. AR told Mats L that this was the case. Penon states “It [the flow meter] is located along the line of return of the water, between the plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat and is entirely filled with water.” (197-03, p. 2)

        Today we will see a lot of new documents (they are already on the pacermonitor, but not yet on Google drive). Maybe the flow meter riddle will finally be solved?

        • Engineer48

          Hi AM,

          Remember that inside the ECat container there are 4 hot water Condensate filled Tiger slabs that are high higher than the Flow Meter pipe location. Flow meter is INSIDE the Condensate pipe. What we see sticking up is the the dial head that shows the flow.

          I suggest the Condensate return pipe enters the ECat container, INSIDE the filled holding tank. It needs to be pressure sealed so the Red Condensate pump can pump 80% of the water volume into the highest Tiger slab.

          Which suggests the flow meter is at the bottom of the Condensate supply chain.

        • Ged

          There is an avalanche of documents from both sides right now, it is fantastic. I am sure we will figure it out solidly, and as E48 points out, this could be the lowest point of the return trip. Just don’t have the thorough pictures of the inside yet.

  • Engineer48
    • Ged

      Yep, that looks like it, based on what we know of the layout and what has been described. Wish the pics weren’t so grainy, as my eyes can’t be sure it isn’t a valve, but the head looks round like a meter.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I would hope that it is rather located at the deepest point. AR told Mats L that this was the case. Penon states “It [the flow meter] is located along the line of return of the water, between the plant of the Customer and the 1 MW E-Cat and is entirely filled with water.” (197-03, p. 2)

        Today we will see a lot of new documents (they are already on the pacermonitor, but not yet on Google drive). Maybe the flow meter riddle will finally be solved?

        • Engineer48

          Hi AM,

          Remember that inside the ECat container there are 4 hot water Condensate filled Tiger slabs that are high higher than the Flow Meter pipe location. Flow meter is INSIDE the Condensate pipe. What we see sticking up is the the dial head that shows the flow.

          I suggest the Condensate return pipe enters the ECat container, INSIDE the filled holding tank. It needs to be pressure sealed so the Red Condensate pump can pump 80% of the water volume into the highest Tiger slab.

          Which suggests the flow meter is at the bottom of the Condensate supply chain.

        • Ged

          There is an avalanche of documents from both sides right now, it is fantastic. I am sure we will figure it out solidly, and as E48 points out, this could be the lowest point of the return trip. Just don’t have the thorough pictures of the inside yet.

          Edit: we can see the return pipe and putative meter are very low relative to the floor of the container, so may very well be the lowest point (can’t go much lower than we see).

  • Engineer48

    Here is how I think it hangs together.

    Note the Condensate outlet of the heat exchanger (White Pipe) inside the JM Black Box is higher than the high volume Condensate Red pump, which is higher than the Flow Meter at the entry to the ECat and the internal Condensate holding tank..

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7301c251134199b377b783e85296024678f0ca9e5409b4d622fe92e3258e99d9.png

    • Goodrice

      Makes sense, but how are the copper loops and the previously highlighted pipes going toward the roof connected with the system?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Goodrice,

        We need more pictures.

        What we do know is Rossi claimed to be able to dump excess heat from inside the JM Black Box via another heat exchanger on the Mezzanine floor. To do that needs piping. We see piping that could do the job. So part of the gear to support the Rossi claim is shown to exist and yet the IH Expert totally ignored them.

        • Stephen

          Regarding the Beige Box under the pipes. I’m not sure I can see any connection to this from the picture in side the container which is curious… un less the copper pipe goes there somehow.

          Curiously there are also 4round silver discs at the end of the beige box. I wonder if these are small computer like fans or if they were also originally holes for some pipes.

          I can’t help thinking the “doorway” must be there at that location for a reason. Unfortunately the pictures of the doorway do not show the bottom of it due to the wall.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            Assuming there was a heat source in the Mezzanine, having that Mezzanine rear wall opening would allow heat to escape and be sucked up by the big roof fan over the JM Black Box.

            Just like what appear to be 2 missing front windows as attached.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/faf4a2c6ce6580cdacc3d04084c26e055574786daa64954968d785060fb3cb09.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1583753805ad785ba6ef064bf6c183a7b99d72c173f47b0a474413f1bde09087.jpg

          • Stephen

            Yup to me it looks like the bottom left window pane is missing in the window above the door too. Which might help air circulation. But it could be just the shadows too in this case.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            You may be correct. Sure doesn’t seem to have any reflections.

          • Stephen

            Any idea what the pipes going up the back wall here do?
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/82bebfb5bd9117c35ae5fdbe2c790aab327eb775717b1d14a142b6c1e09df759.png
            I suspect that one of them connects to the chimney in your roof picture.

            Note I don’t see the pipes going to the roof on the side wall in this picture but it could be in the shadows I suppose.

            I was wondering if they originally went to the “doorway” but were later moved to go to the roof.

          • Ged

            One interesting bit about that picture is it was before any of the pipes from the plant were set up either (or so it looks as they are not visible when they should be), so other pipes may also not yet be installed. I think we have some more images from during or very close to operation we can compare with. We definitely could use a repository with dates as far as known to compare everything together.

          • Stephen

            Yup it seems to be an early picture taken before operations.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            They penetrate the roof and form roof vents. The 2 pipe vents can be seen in the image I posted of the roof, lower than the front office A/C unit and to the right.

            Much speculation has occurred as to what is inside them as the shiny metal pipe was added when the JM space was created.

          • Stephen

            Yup I wonder what the shiny pipe connects to in the JMP space.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            As far as I know, there are no photographs to show where the shiny pipe originates.

          • Obvious
    • Stephen

      Good to see you back here Engineer48 since seeing those pictures I’ve been hoping you were going to comment.

      I have a few observations… more questions actually in case someone knows…

      Does it make sense to you the “water filter” in the clear box?

      Is it definitely a filter and if so what purpose would it have?

      Also why put a filter in a clear box?

      I suppose 1 good advantage if the clear box is that you could see if it was full of water which might be a good indicator that the condensate pipe was too.

      On another point. Regarding the picture of the steam pipe entering inside the JMP container. What are the brown stains on the wall of the container surrounding the pipe?
      Are they caused by rust ?or some kind of pipe treatment? Or caused by leaking steam ? Or by heat?

      Regarding the “serpentine pipe work”:

      The layout of the extra pipes bellow the lagged pipes especially extra short loop and layout along the floor seems to be to some purpose. I wonder if there could be an explanation for this… could the unlagged pipes originally have been in a tank to heat a fluid for example a bit like an electric kettle element? It does look like the rig holding it against near the wall is quite permanent though…

      Is there some explanation for the different looking reddish lagging on the 3rd pipe. Are the two wires at the end of this pipe anything to do with this?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Stephen,

        From what I know of heat exchangers, under the insulation on the 4 upper pipes would be a very large number of fine copper pipes, in thermal contact with them, probably smeared with high thermal conduction paste or adhesive.

        To me the serpentine copper pipes are the heat exchanger secondary thermal radiator to heat the inside of the JM Black Box to a very high temp. Lower end would probably connected to the upper most portion of the secondary wound around the upper pipe and the upper most end of the serpentine piping to the lower most portion of the secondary. Secondary flow would probably be via thermal siphon as the hottest water would rise and replace the colder water.

        The 2 hoses connected to the left end of the heat exchanger do exit the box and can be seen in the images.

        Other may be able to advance this.

  • Engineer48

    Here is how I think it hangs together.

    Note the Condensate outlet of the heat exchanger (White Pipe) inside the JM Black Box is higher than the high volume Condensate Red pump, which is higher than the Flow Meter at the entry to the ECat and the internal Condensate holding tank..

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7301c251134199b377b783e85296024678f0ca9e5409b4d622fe92e3258e99d9.png

    • Goodrice

      Makes sense, but how are the copper loops and the previously highlighted pipes going toward the roof connected with the system?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Goodrice,

        We need more pictures.

        What we do know is Rossi claimed to be able to dump excess heat from inside the JM Black Box via another heat exchanger on the Mezzanine floor. To do that needs piping. We see piping that could do the job. So part of the gear to support the Rossi claim is shown to exist and yet the IH Expert totally ignored them.

        • Stephen

          Regarding the Beige Box under the pipes. I’m not sure I can see any connection to this from the picture in side the container which is curious… un less the copper pipe goes there somehow.

          Curiously there are also 4round silver discs at the end of the beige box. I wonder if these are small computer like fans or if they were also originally holes for some pipes.

          I can’t help thinking the “doorway” must be there at that location for a reason. Unfortunately the pictures of the doorway does not clearly show the bottom of it due to the wall.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            Assuming there was a heat source in the Mezzanine, having that Mezzanine rear wall opening would allow heat to escape and be sucked up by the big roof fan over the JM Black Box.

            Just like what appear to be 2 missing front windows as attached.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/faf4a2c6ce6580cdacc3d04084c26e055574786daa64954968d785060fb3cb09.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1583753805ad785ba6ef064bf6c183a7b99d72c173f47b0a474413f1bde09087.jpg

          • Stephen

            Yup to me it looks like the bottom left window pane is missing in the window above the door too. Which might help air circulation. But it could be just the shadows too in this case.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            You may be correct. Sure doesn’t seem to have any reflections.

          • Stephen

            Any idea what the pipes going up the back wall here do?
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/82bebfb5bd9117c35ae5fdbe2c790aab327eb775717b1d14a142b6c1e09df759.png
            I suspect that one of them connects to the chimney in your roof picture.

            Note I don’t see the pipes going to the roof on the side wall in this picture but it could be in the shadows I suppose.

            I was wondering if they originally went to the “doorway” but were later moved to go to the roof.

            Edit: ahh if you zoom in you can see some pipes in the roof space between the beams near the back wall like the other pictures but maybe further back, but strangely I don’t see the 4 pipes on the right hand wall in stead they seem to connect to a single pipe on the left hand wall and be joined to each other at roof level.

            It’s hard to imagine what they are for in this case. But one thing occurs to me is that in warehouses heat tends to collect in the roof space. This is why they use fans to try to prevent stratification. Could these pipes also be there to deal with that heat I wonder?

          • Ged

            One interesting bit about that picture is it was before any of the pipes from the plant were set up either (or so it looks as they are not visible when they should be), so other pipes may also not yet be installed. I think we have some more images from during or very close to operation we can compare with. We definitely could use a repository with dates as far as known to compare everything together.

          • Stephen

            Yup it seems to be an early picture taken before operations.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            They penetrate the roof and form roof vents. The 2 pipe vents can be seen in the image I posted of the roof, lower than the front office A/C unit and to the right.

            Much speculation has occurred as to what is inside them as the shiny metal pipe was added when the JM space was created.

          • Stephen

            Yup I wonder what the shiny pipe connects to in the JMP space.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            As far as I know, there are no photographs to show where the shiny pipe originates.

            Please note that image is very early on as the steam feed to the JM Black Box has not yet been installed.

          • Obvious
    • Stephen

      Good to see you back here Engineer48 since seeing those pictures I’ve been hoping you were going to comment.

      I have a few observations… more questions actually in case someone knows…

      Does it make sense to you the “water filter” in the clear box?

      Is it definitely a filter and if so what purpose would it have?

      Also why put a filter in a clear box?

      I suppose 1 good advantage if the clear box is that you could see if it was full of water which might be a good indicator that the condensate pipe was too.

      On another point. Regarding the picture of the steam pipe entering inside the JMP container. What are the brown stains on the wall of the container surrounding the pipe?
      Are they caused by rust ?or some kind of pipe treatment? Or caused by leaking steam ? Or by heat?

      Regarding the “serpentine pipe work”:

      The layout of the extra pipes bellow the lagged pipes especially extra short loop and layout along the floor seems to be to some purpose. I wonder if there could be an explanation for this… could the unlagged pipes originally have been in a tank to heat a fluid for example a bit like an electric kettle element? It does look like the rig holding it against near the wall is quite permanent though…

      Is there some explanation for the different looking reddish lagging on the 3rd pipe. Are the two wires at the end of this pipe anything to do with this?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Stephen,

        From what I know of heat exchangers, under the insulation on the 4 upper pipes would be a very large number of fine copper pipes, in thermal contact with them, probably smeared with high thermal conduction paste or adhesive.

        To me the serpentine copper pipes are the heat exchanger secondary thermal radiator to heat the inside of the JM Black Box to a very high temp. Lower end would probably connected to the upper most portion of the secondary wound around the upper pipe and the upper most end of the serpentine piping to the lower most portion of the secondary. Secondary flow would probably be via thermal siphon as the hottest water would rise and replace the colder water.

        The 2 hoses connected to the left end of the heat exchanger do exit the box and can be seen in the images.

        Clear box for the filter will allow to see if it starts to get clogged and needs to be replaced.

        Other may be able to advance this.

    • AbyssUK

      Engineer48, you are actually starting to convince me this might be a steam system, those pipes may be the key… but the data is awful, you obviously have experience with heating systems.. so you’ve seen monitoring data before right ?. p12-p14 have you ever seen anything like this ? Check the scales on the charts, I’ve never seen temperature sensors that are that precise to not fluctuate between 0.01 of a degree let alone 0.0001!! Then a system which can heat up so linearly.. the data is super odd.

      Then during a power shutoff 1.0028 bar held still (while the temperature was semi magically increasing) for 1.5hrs with zero fluctuations to 1/10,000 of a bar … that’s plain dodgy. Even if the pressure was venting off you’d get fluctuations. Atmospheric pressure would have fluctuated at that range! The data is terrible.

      If these are true readings then the data has been manipulated, but why ?

      • Stephen

        I suspect it has something to do with the digitisation of the data scaled and calibrated to engineering values from raw binary and the least significant bit size not being a round number.

  • LION

    the wonder of science to change the world for the better.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4375794/Graphene-filter-provide-drinking-water-millions.html

    Andrea Rossi will do the same.

    • Omega Z

      Nothing new about the process. It is no different then reverse osmosis.
      The material is what’s new and hoped that it will be cheaper to produce and more durable.

      Note: Reverse Osmosis can actually filter water at a cost of 1 cent per 6 gallons. Nearly as cheap as a conventional water treatment plant. The big expense is the distribution system.

  • Engineer48

    Hi AbyssUK,

    Please don’t ignore the hard evidence of the 4 thermally insulated pipes running up the wall and the across the roof.

    They were not put there for no reason.

    BTW any steam that made it back to the internal ECat holding tank would be very quickly turned into water.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce_H,

    The vent goes through the roof of the ECat container, so it is above the max fill height of the highest Tiger. This allows the pumps to fill the Tigers with condensate from the internal tank.

    • Bruce__H

      Wait. If the condensate return tank has a had of pressure on it doesn’t that mean that the condensate pipe must be full at the flowmeter?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce_H,

        Yup. Got it in one.

        All that talk and claims from others about a partly filled flow meter wiped away by the IH Expert Smith. Bet he doesn’t realise what he has done?

  • Andreas Moraitis

    237 (by Defendants), PDF page 8:

    „Plaintiffs claim to have invented a technology called the “E-Cat” capable of violating the law of conservation of energy by producing far more energy than it consumes.“

    Rossi’s reactors are thought to convert nuclear binding energy into other forms of energy (mainly heat). That is in principle the same what happens in the sun or in nuclear reactors. No violation of conservation of energy required.

    I hesitate to use the “i”-word, but in this case it would appear highly appropriate.

    • Ged

      It is a junk statement, and whoever wrote it should feel ashamed. A car doesn’t spend more energy than it produces when it burns gas. LENR is burning binding energy in the form of nucleons, as you point out–there is a consumed fuel as with any energy releasing process. I wonder if the judge or defense lawyers will crack their knuckles for such a bone headed statement, but I doubt anyone will even pay attention to or care about it.

      • psi2u2

        I have to agree. Its the most primitive form of defending the ‘known’ from the ‘unknown’ – in this case an absurd contention that LENR ‘violates the law of conservation of energy.’

        • Engineer48

          Psi2u2,

          It is a pitty when a fellow engineer takes up such work and starts out with an assumption it can’t work as it violates the conservation of energy.

  • Without the plans and specifications to the system you cannot know the details of the system even with these pictures. There are different types of heat exchangers. Where they using water or glycol in the heat exchanger? Where there wireless temperature and pressure monitors throughout the system? Ambient Temp? What was the temperature set at? What was the return temperature, on both sides? Once you have all of these variables it’s pretty easy for a Mechanical Engineer with experience to determine if any monkey business was going on with the conservation of energy equations.

  • AbyssUK

    Counter point, the 4 insulated pipes were not to remove heat, but to add it from another source. The black box doesn’t contain a heat exchanger, it is a heat exchanger! It adds heat to the water travelling past the tigers to give the impression of excess heat. So as not to show on the power usage charts I guess it was powered by a diesel generator. Window was removed to get the exhaust fumes out, this is why it was so hastily repaired before inspection because they didn’t want anybody to know about it. Before anybody says it a modern diesel gen can be almost noiseless.

    This is why the black box is so insulated to keep the heat in to warm the pipes, the small sections of pipes have been removed by rossi because this is where the sensor/control systems for the heat “input” where so the heating could be controlled.

    • Diesel Generator! That’s ridiculous! Yeah, I bet they couldn’t hear or see that!

    • Ged

      And where would the diesel needed to run such a ~980 KW generator come from (subtracting what we know was used via the Utility)? That would be 1.5 liters of diesel used per minute (using the most generous energy density for diesel), or 1 gallon every 2.5 minutes, or 576 gallons per day, or 13.7 barrels of diesel to ship in and out per day. That would be ~$1,343 per day in fuel costs.

      Edit: except my math is wrong as it assumes 100% energy conversion efficiency. Realistically, you are looking at needing 45.6 barrels of diesel per day (30% combustion efficiency), or 1,918 gallons, for a daily cost of ~$4,449 in Florida.

      Do you see a diesel generator, barrels, shipping, refueling equipment, and man power around to pull this off? And no diesel generator is silent by any means, particularly not at these levels.

      Edit2: look up a “super silent diesel generator set”, and a considerably smaller generator than would be needed here generates a 65 dBA noise level at a distance of 7 meters. So no, that is loud as heck–just not the 100+ dBA of non “super silent” ones. See http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1SBUTIpXXXXc9aXXXq6xXFXXX6/200529036/HTB1SBUTIpXXXXc9aXXXq6xXFXXX6.jpg

      So that theory is horrendously busted.

      • AbyssUK

        So, you believe there is no way extra energy could have been put down those pipes to fool pennon, perhaps not a diesel generator, but could there be any other method ? What I am trying to figure out is why these small sections of pipe were removed… if it was just heat exhaust pipe work… why pull them out? Also we have no idea what was in the building next door.

        If this is a con, then as few as people as possible must be in on it and the others fooled, could Penon have been fooled ?

        Is there any other way the energy could have been coming into that black box ?

        • Engineer48

          Hi AUK,

          Please look at the totality of the data I have presented, which just about totally refutes the claims Smith and other have made.

          While I was not there to see and measure the plant in real time, what the various images do show is a system engineered and built that should be capable of achieving the stated Penon claims.

          I have as of yet to see ANY image that does not support this is a real LENR 1MW generator and that it ran for over 1 year, many times in long term SSM mode.

          Please remember that back in 2011, Rossi demoed 5 1/2 hours of SSM mode operation of a 1MW ECat reactor, so I have little issue with output continuing when power input was reduced as the ECat plant is designed to maintain the output 1MW of energy, with varying reactor numbers.

          • Obvious

            How did the condensate get from the twin condenser and fans into the water tank in Bologna?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Here is Mats video report of the 5 1/2 hours of 500kW SSM:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lOYlFyotXk

            I assume there was a small pump inside the heat exchanger area that did the work to lift the condensate from the bottom of the heat exchangers enough to flow it into the condensate tank.

            Note the 4 Tiger slabs on the roof. All that happened at Doral was those roof top Tiger slabs were stacked vertically at ground level.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            After further checking I found this image that shows the condensate from the dual heat exchangers used at Bologna in 2011 flowed directly back to the condensate tanks without any pumping assistance.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/250284ac8b91bf1c17105d0fee6d78fb1ee8e014c1d9ec07f72d6a5d0d61d6c9.png

          • Obvious

            Amazing. Up hill, to the 3/4 level of the condensers, at the water tank end.

          • Obvious

            There are no pumps in the walled off condenser area. The pipes/hoses can be followed from the radiators to the wall, and from the wall to the tank.

          • AbyssUK

            I’ve seen your take and its very convincing that it was actually a superheated steam system and you’ve done a great bit of detective work with what you have. But we have missing pieces!

            We still have no idea what those 4 pipes do or if a heat exchanger was installed on the mezzanine or not, I don’t think the photos show missing window glass and why are the pipe sections missing!

            The temp and pressure data is wonky to say the least, now in your superheated steam system if the power went down and the cats gave rise in temperature as shown by the data, you’d get a pressure rise.. which is not seen in the data. Indeed for 1.5hrs straight the pressure remains at 1.0028 bar precisely with no fluctuations. No pumps running no power….*has a thought*.. was the gauge powered ??? Is it just a data gap ?? Could the gauge for some reason just have reported its last reading continuously over the power outage ?

        • Ged

          You tell me: how do we make usable energy at this scale? The electric mains weren’t used for 1 MW heat, so that is out, nor natural gas utility. Combustion wasn’t used, so that is out, and there are no solar panels or wind turbines around (and you would need a lot of both for the required power, and they are unstable sources that would not give steady power and data). What’s left? Surprisingly, nothing I can think of. Other than nuclear. If you want to posit the black JMP stuff were nuclear reactors, be my guest, just note the new pictures we have from Smith.

          We do know exactly what was next door to JMP’s unit: and you can check street view and Florida business residence records for the complex (as we did in previous threads). All unrelated stuff from before them, and we see no physical connection between units (look at the pictures, do you see sufficient piping for your theory breaking through the concrete walls?), in fact we even have pictures from inside one of the neighboring units when it was up for leasing. Moving the problem doesn’t solve nor hide it for that theory (still have to make that energy!), and remember that JMP does not own the space it is in, it’s only leasing it, so the ultimate owners of the complex are watching everything.

          So, be careful. Just like “nearly noisless” diesel generators are a lie meant to snare the oh so gullible consumer, you should do the homework to verify any claims as far as you are able so you don’t fall for “I have a bridge to sell you” theories.

          Working together, doing the math and engineering, we will figure this out, I have no doubt, and you make good, important questions–just need to exercise those theory skills when trying to answer them with the already present evidence :).

          • AbyssUK

            Ged, I am playing devils advocate here,
            I am surprised that the system may have indeed been producing the super heated steam and not just hot water to trick the report. IH et al were hoping it wasn’t really, but E48 has shown it could well have been.

            If it was really making the steam but the e-cat doesn’t work as advertised, is there a way that could be possible?. If assume the data is good and you eliminate all the normal possibilities (diesel/gas generator etc) then only the e-cat working as advertised is left.

            Could something have been in that black box supplementing/producing the required heat ? Could those pipes have fed/controlled it ?

            Also a thought occurs perhaps the system has been designed to be able to run as a steam system and a water system, from E48 and this report both are possible right… perhaps only in “steam mode” during inspections and photos then water mode to keep the automated data logging happy ? Indeed the way to measure the power used is odd… why not just use the steam flow meter.. they apparently had one…

          • Ged

            Well, the point to keep in mind is there may be other places to look for discrepencies, so if this line isn’t yielding anything, then a new line be should followed. Other than a nuke reactor, nothing is going to fill the role of making that much heat with the given evidence and constraints, as to supplement a fake E-cat as postulated by that line of reasoning. But there are other things that could be done instead to make this data, and that is where we head now.

            So the answer to those questions is “no”, unless something exotic was used which would be noteworthy of its own.

            The evidence doesn’t seem to fit with the idea of switching between steam and water, as it isn’t quite that simple (the gauge glass seems fine and not mucky as switching between a submerged and not-submerged reactor state would lead to over time). It wouldn’t fool the temperature and pressure sensors, but it would leave the water meter unaffected as you correctly reason. However, even if that were the case, to get the water hot enough to keep the temperature sensor data as we see it will still require a COP much above the contract payout criteria, as we see calculated here http://www.e-catworld.com/2017/04/04/rossi-v-ih-new-pictures-posted-in-exhibit/#comment-3241356947 .

            A combination of minor factors at each stage and measurement place summing together just right would have to be employed, and/or Penon and the rest would have to be in on it to fake it all, at this rate.

            The piping really doesn’t seem to stand out or say anything odd necessarily–not on its own, as it is properly functional from the visual evidence through time; and repairs or mods aren’t unexpected over a year’s time. And if there was a steam flow meter and it was working and reported something odd, IH would have jumped all over that, and they haven’t, so that isn’t an issue it seems.

            The biggest issue right now is where did the heat exchanger go. Venting through the roof would have been easy and more than sufficient, but instead it was a second story window we don’t yet see evidence for? That is frankly bizarre. Doable, sure, but bizarre and lacking any support so far.

            So, really, it seems one is left with either it works or everyone is in on the fraud, at this point. All the reveals so far have bolstered Rossi’s case rather than hurt him (despite attempted spin by IH), except the heat exchanger–so that seems to be a good target to analyze and see if it works out or begins unraveling everything.

            Also, supposedly the manufacturers of the sensors calibrated them before and after the run, so evidence about that would help analyze if Penon gamed the sensors or not.

            But, to wrap up in summary, there isn’t a way to provide a second source of heat at this magnitude within evidence constraints beyond a nuclear reactor, and even then I don’t know of any small enough to fit in that space with all the associated radiation safety equipment except for LENR based ones. The plumbing and materials we see so far are capable of running the test successfully.

            The weakness for Rossi’s case mainly right now is in the sensors, specifically in combining minor quirks in each one to sum up to a sufficiently incorrect COP (a good place to start looking as we have), and most glaring of all in the second story exchanger. But not in adding heat from somewhere else. Is there more we can see there?

    • psi2u2

      So this is all a giant and carefully premeditated scam on Rossi’s part? Because that seems to be the only conclusion from your comment.

  • Now that I’ve read through the report I see Industrial Heat’s position, the report has serious problems if what he is saying about the steam and pressure readings is true. However, it doesn’t mean that the system didn’t create the required energy for their agreement. I’ve had boilers installed with 500,000 BTU’s that don’t produce steam, you still are producing a lot of energy. So a report that takes a “hot water circulation system” and not a “steam circulation system” into account should have been conducted. You don’t need to produce superheated steam to create lots of energy. The Steam release valves may have been there just for safety reasons. In anycase this report makes them ALL look bad. (Especially Industrial Heat, BOZOS!) Who performs a test for a year and doesn’t have it vetted from the very beginning, with periodic agreed upon reports to keep the test on track? I’m curious to know how Rossi’s team responded to this report.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Some numbers (10 kW average input power and deltaT = 40 assumed):

      (No steam)

      Flow (kg/h) – pSteam – COP

      750 – 0.00 – 3.5
      1000 – 0.00 – 4.6
      1250 – 0.00 – 5.8
      1500 – 0.00 – 7

      The same with 5% steam:

      Flow (kg/h) – pSteam – COP

      750 – 0.05 – 5.8
      1000 – 0.05 – 7.8
      1250 – 0.05 – 9.7
      1500 – 0.05 – 11.7

      Required was a COP > 4 to >= 6 for partial/full payment (I think). Surprise: No steam and half the reported rate (750 – 0.00) are claimed.

      • Ged

        And still a well positive COP at their claimed rates. Just enough to wiggle out of the contract payment though.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          BTW: You would get COP = 1 at a flow rate of 215 kg/h (no steam). That means the flow meter would have to be wrong by the factor 7.

          • Ged

            Which is well below the starting flow rate of 350 kg/h required to turn the MWN130-80-NC’s wheel, according to Apator. So at that rate, the water meter would report no flow.

      • Engineer48
        • Brilliant. Hope this is brought up in court.

        • Steve Swatman

          Hi Engineer48, great to see you pumping out the logic on the forum.

          can I ask if you are experimenting yourself and how its all going, i seem to remember that you were planning some to do some practical homework.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Steve,

            Was going to do that then reality and paying bills altered the pathway. Currently involved in a really big project that is sucking +100% of my time. Only doing this because I had some down time, waiting for some information to arrive. Which has now arrived and I may not be able to do much more posting.

          • Ged

            It is great having you around and I must thank you for your insights. I very well understand how it goes, and I hope your project works out well!

          • Steve Swatman

            hi Engineer48, I guess life has a way of getting in the way of all the fun, i was expecting you to be the one who verified and proved all the nay sayers wrong. Still is good to see a man of logic and experience jumping in and showing some light in the darkness.

        • GiveADogABone

          236-49 : Deposition of Barry West
          “We actually had to remove [gauge glasses] and clean them and stuff, because it got so bad, you couldn’t see the water level, where the water level was actually in the unit in the reactor.”

          • Engineer48

            Hey GADAB,

            Of course. Exactly as the images show.

            So exit stage left the idea that the Tigers operated FLOODED and only pumped warm water.

          • Björn-Ola

            I think if
            it was water pumped around the outlet temperature should variate a bit. But
            with steam the temperature is fixed to the boiling temperature point. It is the
            flow that variates with the heating power.

            The only
            measurements are Penons and Fabianis as far as I know and IH needs to have
            other measurements to prove them wrong.

            I think that
            the heat exchanger is the problem. Wongs calculations are wrong because he use
            the temperature difference between the steam and the temperature of the
            incoming air.

            But with an
            airflow of 50.000m³/h the air needs to be heated 60°C to carry away 1MW of
            heat.

            That reduces
            the difference between the steam temperature and the air temperature a lot.

            If the inlet
            air temperature was 30°C the extract air temperature should be 90°C.

          • Ged

            No, that is not an error by Wong as far as I see. Heat exchangers are extremely efficient and you can buy exchangers for getting rid of 1.8 MW of heat with just 34k CFM room temp air.

            A heat exchanger works by counter current, and can easily heat the air up to nearly the temperature of the incoming steam when starting at room temp in one pass–and carry away all 1 MW no problem. This is why you see counter current heat exchangers everywhere in power plants, engineering, and biological organisms.

            See how counter current works here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Comparison_of_con-_and_counter-current_flow_exchange.jpg/400px-Comparison_of_con-_and_counter-current_flow_exchange.jpg

          • Björn-Ola

            But the air must be heated 60 °C. You cant use the inlet air temperature in the calculation. You should use a temperarure in the middle between the inlet air temperature and the outlet air temperature.

        • Dr. Mike

          Engineer48,
          Thanks for your efforts to figure out the real plumbing diagram for the 1MW system. My guess is that Rossi will have to eventually submit a detailed diagram to answer Smith’s report, otherwise the balance of evidence would favor IH’s position.

          Even if Smith’s report has errors, a judge /jury would have to give it more weight that the Penon report which lacks the detail necessary to understand the system.
          Dr. Mike

    • Engineer48

      Hi LibertyNews,

      Strange the IH Experts seems to ignore the measured steam temp in excess of 103C. At 0 barg that is SuperHeater steam.

      • Dr. Mike

        I am not certain if all of the assumptions made by Smith are correct, but I will say his report is representative of what I would expect with $89M on the line (as compared to Penon’s report). It will be interesting to see if Rossi replies to each issue that he believes to be incorrect in the Smith analysis. One thing for certain that was neglected by Penon was a detailed description of how each measurement instrument was calibrated. The critical temperature measurement was just what was read off a digital meter. How was the temperature sensor and the digital meter calibrated?

        • Engineer48

          Hi Dr. Mike,

          Penon has claimed all his instruments were calibrated under expected working conditions prior to installation and after removal.

          To my knowledge those certification certificates have not yet surfaced.

      • You’re right, I suspect with careful review of the data it should show that there was steam that fluctuated between saturated and superheated. 99.9 C to 103 C. There should have been some pressure variations that correlate up to 0.115 barG. I have not looked yet.

        • Also, saying that because there were not “Super Heaters” so there could be no steam is not a statement I understand, since the E-cats themselves acted as the heaters, am I missing something here? IH Conclusion no. 6. From what I read the only real allegation that affects the COP is the Pressure readings. Was something off with the equipment? Where is the raw data? If the only anomaly was for that day when the power went off, it’s a week position. If their claim that the Pressure didn’t rise is not true their IH’s “Expert” conclusions are invalid.

          Also, I’m not clear on their conclusion no. 2 with the mezzanine, I’m sure Rossi has something to refute this.

  • Now that I’ve read through the report I see Industrial Heat’s position, the report has serious problems if what he is saying about the steam and pressure readings is true. However, it doesn’t mean that the system didn’t create the required energy for their agreement. I’ve had boilers installed with 500,000 BTU’s that don’t produce steam, you still are producing a lot of energy. So a report that takes a “hot water circulation system” and not a “steam circulation system” into account should have been conducted. You don’t need to produce superheated steam to create lots of energy. The Steam release valves may have been there just for safety reasons. In anycase this report makes them ALL look bad. (Especially Industrial Heat, BOZOS!) Who performs a test for a year and doesn’t have it vetted from the very beginning, with periodic agreed upon reports to keep the test on track? I’m curious to know how Rossi’s team responded to this report.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Some numbers (10 kW average input power and deltaT = 40 assumed):

      (No steam)

      Flow (kg/h) – pSteam – COP

      750 – 0.00 – 3.5
      1000 – 0.00 – 4.6
      1250 – 0.00 – 5.8
      1500 – 0.00 – 7

      The same with 5% steam:

      Flow (kg/h) – pSteam – COP

      750 – 0.05 – 5.8
      1000 – 0.05 – 7.8
      1250 – 0.05 – 9.7
      1500 – 0.05 – 11.7

      Required was a COP > 4 to >= 6 for partial/full payment (I think). Surprise: No steam and half the reported rate (750 – 0.00) are claimed.

      • Ged

        And still a well positive COP at their claimed rates. Just enough to wiggle out of the contract payment though.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          BTW: You would get COP = 1 at a flow rate of 215 kg/h (no steam). That means the flow meter would have to be wrong by the factor 7.

          • Ged

            Which is well below the starting flow rate of 350 kg/h required to turn the MWN130-80-NC’s wheel, according to Apator. So at that rate, the water meter would report no flow.

    • Engineer48

      Hi LibertyNews,

      Strange the IH Experts seems to ignore the measured steam temp in excess of 103C. At 0 barg that is SuperHeater steam.

      • You’re right, I suspect with careful review of the data it should show that there was steam that fluctuated between saturated and superheated. 99.9 C to 103 C. There should have been some pressure variations that correlate up to 0.115 barG. I have not looked yet.

        • Also, saying that because there were not “Super Heaters” so there could be no steam is not a statement I understand, since the E-cats themselves acted as the heaters, am I missing something here? IH Conclusion no. 6. From what I read the only real allegation that affects the COP is the Pressure readings. Was something off with the equipment? Where is the raw data? If the only anomaly was for that day when the power went off, it’s a week position. If their claim that the Pressure didn’t rise is not true their IH’s “Expert” conclusions are invalid.

          Also, I’m not clear on their conclusion no. 2 with the mezzanine, I’m sure Rossi has something to refute this.

  • Frank Acland
  • Frank Acland
  • After reading the court exhibits its clear to me that Industrial Heat is content to be a Patent Troll. They want the field to succeed but only with their consent. They didn’t want the test to be successful and are fine to sandbag Rossi and others until it serves their goals not to. They must be backed by some dark money.

    • Omega Z

      That became very clear when the docs revealed the IP trap mentality. Patent every LENR IP use imaginable. LENR heater, aircraft engines, turbines, heat absorbtion chillers, desalination, ect, etc, etc… Obviously, there are many ways to accomplish these things, but patent the most probable & obvious techniques and it detours others and leads to license deals. If all else fails, they claim infringement and legal percussions.

      I also think Tom Darden and friends inc are just the public front for those standing in the shadows. They’ve been instructed from the beginning to connect with Rossi and monitor the situation. (Seriously, THEY approached Rossi. Not the other way around.)

      Just an Observation:

      Anyone else notice how Bill Gates, the Page brothers and others have behind the scences LENR connections. Yet, no direct visable links to Darden. Doesn’t that seem strange. On the other hand, We see Darden having meetings at the White House and meetings with Chinese Government Officials.

  • GiveADogABone

    238-24 :
    Joe Murray and Rick Smith refuted by Prof. Wong

    Heat Exchanger located in the second floor room
    Air Flow: 2 Fans (25,000 cubic m/hr. each)
    22 Steel Pipes 103 sq. m. total surface area
    Encased in insulated wood panel
    Good for removing 1.4MW

    • psi2u2

      Can you please provide a reference to the document in question? – There seem to be quite a lot of documents under his name.

      • GiveADogABone

        Connect to the Google drive using the link provided in the header article above. Find file 238-24 and open

    • Andreas Moraitis

      The problem is that Wong never saw that heat exchanger, so his considerations remain hypothetic (see 194-06). If there was indeed such a thing in the second floor, it should be easy for Plaintiffs to provide evidence for its existence. For example, they could bring in the contractor who built it, or show at least some photos of the device.

      • doug marker

        Sometimes it seems that no matter what evidence is produced it is never enough for someone. As for providing evidence from the tradesmen, perhaps they need to bring along their trade school tutors to prove they were trained and capable of building one, and perhaps bring along their parents to assert they really are who they say they are.

        This requirement for evidence on the evidence on the prior evidence seems endless !. And no doubt will remain so !.

        D

    • Bruce__H

      THHuxley on LENR Forum thinks that Wong has miscalculated by an order of magnitude. Did you see the calculation? What did you think of it?

  • GiveADogABone

    238-24 :
    Joe Murray and Rick Smith refuted by Prof. Wong

    Heat Exchanger located in the second floor room
    Air Flow: 2 Fans (25,000 cubic m/hr. each)
    22 Steel Pipes 103 sq. m. total surface area
    Encased in insulated wood panel
    Good for removing 1.4MW

    • Bob K

      Except that he was informed. It was not an observation, but I guess it still counts.

      Informed:
      This expert has been informed that a heat exchanger was located in the second floor
      room at the Doral Facility. The specifications of the heat exchanger have been
      described to me as follows:
      Composition: (22) steel pipes
      Length: 10 meters each (excluding u-shaped connector);
      Interior Diameter: . 15 meter
      Total surface Area: approx. 103 sq. m. (1,030,000 sq. em.) (does not
      include pipe overlapping or u-joints)
      Encasement: wood panel insulated with rock wool shaped for thermal and
      acoustic insulation
      Dimensions: Aprox. I 0 m (length) X 6.5 m (width) X I m (height)
      Air Flow: 2 Fans (25,000 cubic m/hr. each)

    • psi2u2

      Can you please provide a reference to the document in question? – There seem to be quite a lot of documents under his name.

      • GiveADogABone

        Connect to the Google drive using the link provided in the header article above. Find file 238-24 and open

    • Andreas Moraitis

      The problem is that Wong never saw that heat exchanger, so his considerations remain hypothetic (see 194-06). If there was indeed such a thing in the second floor, it should be easy for Plaintiffs to provide evidence for its existence. For example, they could bring in the contractor who built it, or show at least some photos of the device.

      • doug marker

        removed – topic has aged 5 days ?

    • Bruce__H

      THHuxley on LENR Forum thinks that Wong has miscalculated by an order of magnitude. Did you see the calculation? What did you think of it?

  • Stephen

    I suspect it has something to do with the digitisation of the data scaled and calibrated to engineering values from raw binary and the least significant bit size not being a round number.

  • Hi all

    In reply to Luca Meli

    The same reason that the independent report was held back until the court case, IH had Rossi under an NDA bind.

    Kind Regards walker

  • Engineer48

    I believe there was a steam trap on the OUTLET of the heat exchanger inside the JM Black Box.

    Above the Red pump will be a mixture on condensate at the bottom of the pipe and steam above it with some steam mixed into the condensate.

    The pump draws from the bottom of the condensate line, avoiding most of the steam that is above the liquid condensate.

    The outlet side of the pump is at a higher pressure than the inlet of the pump.

    As the condensate passes through the filter, there may be a mixture of condensate and steam.

    After the mixture passes through the filter and into the condensate return pipe, it encounters the vertical riser section which will allow any trapped steam in the condensate to exit up the short vertical riser.

    The higher pressure in the riser, due to the pump pressure, will pressurise the trapped steam that has formed above the condensate fluid in the riser.

    Once the steam pressure in the steam section of the riser is great enough to overcome the one way value, the recovered steam will flow back into the heat exchanger outlet and join the steam that exists there.

    So there is a very clever steam trap, condensate pump and steam recovery system that seems to have totally been ignored or not understood by the various IH Experts.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d97c78402d308d9e10f1a757ce786adabf7bea3ca0376156b5715be5b1546776.png

  • Engineer48

    I believe there was a steam trap on the OUTLET of the heat exchanger inside the JM Black Box.

    Above the Red pump will be a mixture on condensate at the bottom of the pipe and steam above it with some steam mixed into the condensate.

    The pump draws from the bottom of the condensate line, avoiding most of the steam that is above the liquid condensate.

    The outlet side of the pump is at a higher pressure than the inlet of the pump.

    As the condensate passes through the filter, there may be a mixture of condensate and steam.

    After the mixture passes through the filter and into the condensate return pipe, it encounters the vertical riser section which will allow any trapped steam in the condensate to exit up the short vertical riser.

    The higher pressure in the riser, due to the pump pressure, will pressurise the trapped steam that has formed above the condensate fluid in the riser.

    Once the steam pressure in the steam section of the riser is great enough to overcome the one way value, the recovered steam will flow back into the heat exchanger outlet and join the steam that exists there.

    So there is a very clever steam trap, condensate pump and steam recovery system that seems to have totally been ignored or not understood by the various IH Experts.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d97c78402d308d9e10f1a757ce786adabf7bea3ca0376156b5715be5b1546776.png

  • Engineer48

    The IH Experts fluid flow schematic shows the Condensate return flow entering the Tiger Steam Riser and the Tiger Steam Riser connected to in internal condensate holding tank.

    Penon’s diagram does not show that.

    One is incorrect.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/df6cbbaa3b4c9dd814098a6a45ea1f06c5ec40a06b31e5fb0753c389d68e3576.png

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5ad9e885002315d13c5d28e19dcb1dcc5ef0d02592b59273c427d23a41b9293f.png

    • Ged

      Photo evidence seems to clearly side with Penon.

      • Engineer48

        Ged,

        Yup.

        I do note the IH Expert has not presented any photographic evidence to support his supposed hydraulic system schematic.

        • Bruce__H

          Well neither has Rossi to be fair.

          All of these confusions over the hydraulic parts of the system could be totally removed from the court case by Rossi providing a schematic that the other side could then check. Why is it so secret? I mean it doesn’t really even have anything to do with any secrets of excess energy production anyway.

          • Vinney

            If IH had been more ‘diligent’ technically, they would have plenty of schematics of their own, what have their experts been doing there for the term of the test.
            They have dropped the ball, and at this level of Iindustrial agreement they’re going to be lucky to walk away with anything from a court ruling.
            Better they negotiate an outcome that leaves then with some credibility in the LENR community.

    • Bruce__H

      Are there any pictures of the relative positions of the steam riser and either the condensate return or the condensate tank venting pipe?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce_H,

        Tiger Super Heated Steam Riser attached. Steam goes right at the top of the riser and exits the ECat container.

        Condensate vent to atmo pipe is at the far end of the Tiger support shelves, left side of the image.
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/930edf4bbd75e82b892f57d1c01dc0e2585ec483184e0e76c9f2fae3012e139f.png
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cdd3e019e0cfc25bf69168778e748976738ae99552d72a608728672554a0e5dc.png
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/44276224ebc38b403207e88a59692cfb6330711280b6f5fc30367c31fff7c4b5.png

        • Engineer48

          This combo image shows the internal Tiger Super Heated Steam riser and the external Super Heated Steam feed in a better relationship.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c2cc8d8a7b90c3e1dc1807906fdb6a725c815d2aeb32d67afe5f7177128d69a3.png

        • GiveADogABone

          At last someone posts something that recognises the significance of the boiler gauge glasses and the ‘half-a-glass’ water level inside them. Well Done!!

          • Stephen

            A quick question Engineer48:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1a1cebe9f29851cb37db0e8ea18dd9902b7893f427cd1e364e5cfd5764a6610d.png

            Regarding the split flow to the of the condensate to the Tiger (BF) units. One via the topping up pumps and the other a direct flow to the (BF) tanks does this picture show what you mean?

            If you look at the left hand pipe in this picture it seems to me to split near the top in to 2 pipes. 1 insulated pipe going to the top row of topping up pumps, the other in insulated branch going directly in to the top tankin the left side

            Here is another view where you can see it also goes to the other tanks. (This view was previously annotated I think by Paradigmnoia on LF to show “rust” in the clear pipes)

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b38106ea1d010a507f879c4dd3e488bee460afe5230ec1c919119555868e4af6.jpg

            It seems to me the main flow goes directly to the Tigers but a controlled flow goes through the topping up pumps where needed.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            The topping up pumps are feed via the 4 white horizontal headers at the base, each white base header feeding 6 pumps, then via flex tubing to the pumps and then via flex tubing straight up from the pumps into the upper header and then that upper header dumps down into the pipe that supplies the main condensate flow. That main condensate flow is throttled by the Yellow manually adjusted valves that feed off the vertical condensate vent pipe.

            A bit tricky setup but it should work as claimed.

          • Stephen

            This is just a crazy question that I’m wondering about.

            Could suction also play a role in giving the condensate sufficient head to supply the Tigers. Rather than direct pump pressure.

            We suspect that the super heated steam is removed by suction could there a certain amount of suction also drawing the condensate into the Tigers ?

            Or would this effect be too little.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            As GiveADogABone explained, the 2-3m water head on the inlet side of the pumps will mean some of the pumps may be operating under negative back pressure as the pump output back pressure would be around 0.1 barg as the superheated steam outputs at 0.0 barg.

            Doing the maths, a 2.5m head of water or condensate will generate approx 0.245 barg of pressure, which could indicate the lowest Tiger pumps may be operating with negative or null back pressure and so might output more than 32 L/Day. However to supply 56 L/Hr of condensate, for 250kW output per Tiger, the pumps would need to be operating well above rated capacity, even with no back pressure. So somewhere Rossi has plumbed in a raw condensate supply driven by the big Red pump in the JM Black Box.

          • Obvious

            The Prominent pumps are also operating well above their rated temperature range.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            With proper case material selection can do 65C fluid forever. Which is what the Condensate temp is.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7f296b9e7c088e03c5572f5cdd0fc8a86386e991fac45b84aef996995bf002fd.png

          • Obvious

            I guess we can check the label.

          • Obvious
          • Andreas Moraitis

            The model number ECCO0232PPB007UA01B000 (235-10, p. 17) seems to indicate polypropylene. See the corresponding codes on p. 7 of the manual.

            http://www.prominentxtranet.com/pdf/GammaL2.pdf

          • Andreas Moraitis

            BTW this is not relevant for the case, and apparently the pumps did somehow their job. But no wonder that there were so many leaks…

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bruce,

            The only look we have at the inside of a ECat superheater is attached.

            I suggest the water boils in the lower section and that around the edge of the reactor there is a tight gap to the case that allows the saturated steam to enter the upper section and be superheated. Don’t believe any water is normally in the upper finned superheating section.

            Which is why these ECat superheaters need gauge glasses and control systems on the topping up pumps to maintain the required water level so there is enough head space in the upper superheating space for the upper fins to heat the saturated steam, from the lower section, into superheated steam. Clever design.

            Believe the Tigers are multiple of these superheater ECat reactors.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f6200a4552a6fd34388887bfa737ddc4a506dd8dc3582a5716cafe59dc4b6ec0.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d057ef59117723f8bee16d943acb480e123f62aca37827d85542c9107659805a.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/32c219954db58a3d2f889e87a56179b224e40172056274b6fd582d4bbddfda5b.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/26b0f158c4545db0dfddc971a49cad49b57ba61bd9a205b077c9fde8bc335989.png

          • Goodrice

            It seems that Rossi used a variant that existed for a period of time in the Italian market, which appears to be for the most part a slightly downgraded version of the Gamma/L model, but with the same base technical specifications.

            http://share.prominent.com/Product-Catalogues/Catalogo-Prodotti/Tecnologia-per-piscine.pdf

            http://i.imgur.com/ag5teQO.png

          • Stephen

            Hi Engineer48, what you say all makes sense. But I wonder if it could be the other way round. Could the back pressure be drawing the normal flow round the circuit and in to the Tigers directly by passing the topping up pumps and the path through the topping up pumps only be used to top up the level due to Losses as a result of insufficient head or leakages in the normal circuit?

            That back pressure could be generated by either the red pump in the JMP container at start up but also by the condensor it self to some extent during normal operations.

            Perhaps these topping up pumps are regulated by the control system to ensure correct water level and pressure in the Tigers.

            If they are only intermittently used like this it might explain why the pipes get dirty and also that they could be used at higher temperatures.

            To me it also seems more logical from a control system point of view. As the flows could be more easily dynamically regulated.

            But it would depend if there is sufficient back pressure to draw the water into the Tigers through the circuit by passing one water pumps.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            The black boxes on the left side behind the yellow handles seem to be automatic valves. Presumably they will be closed as long as the small pumps work. But why are there multiple pumps feeding the same line? One might rather expect that they would control the reactor modules individually – otherwise, one pump per line would suffice.

          • 245-27 is a brutal example of Rossi intentionally deceiving IH regarding JMP being a separate, and de facto validating, entity.

          • radvar

            That’s my gut reaction. So, I’m trying to reframe that in hypothetical defense of Rossi. The best I can do is this characterization (and please, forgive me): “an example of Rossi not being entirely forthcoming about the relationship between JMP and Leonardo”.

            The questions then are, is there a thread of reality in Rossi’s statement, or are there any outright falsehoods?

            I think the crux of the matter is the strongly inferred separateness of Ross and the JM Director. “I talked with myself about it” doesn’t quite work.

            So, do we know if there was or was not a separate person who could feasibly be ascribed the role of “JM Director” at the time of the communication with Darden, whom Rossi even possibly could have communicated with?

          • He said under oath that he was JM’s director. No one else ever worked there except Bass and Bass’s knowledge was quite limited.

            This is proof in my opinion that Rossi intentionally misled IH at least about the day to day operations of JMP and that they were happily validating the steam output. I think people are over-reacting to some elements of the “customer” brouhaha, but this element looks pretty nasty.

            Rossi lies and deceives when it suits his business purposes. We should only believe what he says when there is corroborating evidence. I do give his testimony under oath significant weight though, considering the penalties for perjury.

          • Bob K

            Mark
            April 4, 2017 at 10:36 AM
            Dr Andrea Rossi:
            1- was JMC directed by you?
            2- did IH- Darden know who was the director of JMP?
            3- was the owner of JMC directly or indirectly a relative of yours?
            4- did IH- Darden ever complain about the owner or the director of JMP before or during the performance test?
            5- did you ever say or write that JMP was owned by Johnson Matthey?
            6- did ever Darden-IH ask you who was the owner of JMP during the validation test?
            7- did Darden use JMP for his promotion, knowing who was the director of it?
            8- why Darden-IH have not been able to enter in the JMP area where the plant of JMP was installed?
            Since these issues have been already disclosed in the documents published by the Court, can you answer?
            Regards,
            Mark

            Andrea Rossi
            April 4, 2017 at 1:37 PM
            Mark:
            Evidence in documents speaks for itself and says:
            1- yes
            2- yes, since 2014
            3- no
            4- never
            5- never
            6- never
            7- yes, he demanded Jim Bass to give good reference to his investors
            8- because the agreement between JMP and IH vetoed to IH to enter the area of JMP and vice versa
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.

          • radvar

            It would seem from the above, and from 245-27, that Rossi consistently represents that there was a separate person known by Darden to be the “JM Director”. That doesn’t answer the question about whether Rossi misrepresented the nature of the JM entity to IH. However, does anyone have a conjecture as to whom that “JM Director” might be?

          • DrD

            That sounds a bit like Andrea answering his own questions

          • radvar

            The possible existence of a real person with even putative role (i.e. one that is imputed) as “JM Director” pulls the punch on this one for me.

          • BillH

            The mysterious Mr Di Giovanni, owner of the Platinum American Trust and through that JMP, only see twice by Henry Johnson. He who gave AR total control over everything that happened at Doral.

          • BillH

            His full name is Francesco Di Giovanni, as confirmed by Henry Johnson in 245-08 page 47 of 52.

          • Bruce__H

            In the top picture (taken by Smith I think) the vertical pipe is not connected to the bottom Tiger or the 3rd from the bottom. I can’t tell about the 2nd from the bottom because the “Authorized personnel only” sign is in the way.

            If this vertical pipe supplies both the pumps and the Tiger/BF units with water then how can this be?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bruce_H,

            I go by the high res pump and plumbing image that has all the Green pump lights on and the pump indicators displaying the pumping values, meaning they were in operation.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8b91f2c92c9e09fa3052e698caa9f76c2eaa9aa91ce06b6756e2ae8662385630.png

            Rossi may have altered the piping in the Smith image to confuse those that were to follow.

          • Stephen

            Yup it’s clear from the pictures the pipes are rearranged. I don’t think they were altered to confuse people though. I think it’s quite likely the left hand pipe is also used to fill the Tigers with water in the beginning and in another arrangement those pipes allow efficient drainage of the Tigers.

            I’m not 100% sure but I think in this he first picture I sent above the left hand pipe top goes through the wall of the ECat container at a hight higher than the top Tiger near the roof. This could maybe make sense if the tanks were filled from there, but I’m guessing a bit.

  • Engineer48

    The IH Experts fluid flow schematic shows the Condensate return flow entering the Tiger Steam Riser and the Tiger Steam Riser connected to in internal condensate holding tank.

    Penon’s diagram does not show that.

    One is incorrect.

    BTW anyone have a reference as to why the IH Expert ignores the measured steam temp of +103C as at 0.0 barg (1 atmo), that steam is SuperHeater, that is unless the IH Expert is going to rewrite steam physics.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/df6cbbaa3b4c9dd814098a6a45ea1f06c5ec40a06b31e5fb0753c389d68e3576.png

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5ad9e885002315d13c5d28e19dcb1dcc5ef0d02592b59273c427d23a41b9293f.png

    • Ged

      Photo evidence seems to clearly side with Penon.

      • Engineer48

        Ged,

        Yup.

        I do note the IH Expert has not presented any photographic evidence to support his supposed hydraulic system schematic.

        • Bruce__H

          Well neither has Rossi to be fair.

          All of these confusions over the hydraulic parts of the system could be totally removed from the court case by Rossi providing a schematic that the other side could then check. Why is it so secret? I mean it doesn’t really even have anything to do with any secrets of excess energy production anyway.

          • Vinney

            If IH had been more ‘diligent’ technically, they would have plenty of schematics of their own, what have their experts been doing there for the term of the test.
            They have dropped the ball, and at this level of Iindustrial agreement they’re going to be lucky to walk away with anything from a court ruling.
            Better they negotiate an outcome that leaves then with some credibility in the LENR community.

    • Bruce__H

      Are there any pictures of the relative positions of the steam riser and either the condensate return or the condensate tank venting pipe?

  • Wish I had super powers to read all the documents released in the last month. I have only read pieces, but wherever I look, I’m happy to see that what I believe to be facts fit together in a coherent way, which is usually the case with the truth. You never know what smart lawyers can achieve, but I think this will be interesting to see playing out in court.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Mats,

      Likewise.

      I go with the photographic evidence and what I see strongly supports the Rossi story.

      The IH Experts seems to have no real understanding of how Rossi claims his ECats work, as with Smith claiming the Tigers can not generate Super Heated steam yet he has never seen inside them.

      Maybe if he reviewed some of your past data on the earlier square ECat and the Super Heater fins in the steam space, plus the sight gauges that clearly show the Tigers are not operated flooded, he might learn something.

      While I have not yet seen and photos of the inside of the Tigers, from the multiple power feeds through the sides, I assume they are built of many of the square reactor modules, with the Steam Super Heating fins sticking up into the saturated steam space.

      So to close, the images of the Tiger gauge glasses clearly show Smith is incorrect and the Tigers did not operate flooded. Very strange statement as Smith had the opportunity to examine the gauge glasses and would have seen the stains that indicated the control water level inside the Tigers.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/26b0f158c4545db0dfddc971a49cad49b57ba61bd9a205b077c9fde8bc335989.png
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/386933232b423e5eceb50594c27ba013508a6dc1e9230565f55552ea46815a00.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f5478ac444962b2fe3edcabd5147e8fb819b3804b40d688123f4b8a8d1d6a1fa.jpg
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a18414dcc41f84aa5f0897520b47814f9232a1eba72edc67c35051efa21b30ff.png
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f8b3b65bd18683949e88c4f32458ed5578b7ade5fd3408f92808669e950fe271.jpg
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/32c219954db58a3d2f889e87a56179b224e40172056274b6fd582d4bbddfda5b.png

      • Eng48—I believe the simple reason the IH expert doesn’t see what you see is that IH doesn’t want him to see. Otherwise IH would immediately have to pay $89M. That’s also why I make a reservation for smart lawyers. The other alternative is that IH’s belief system, totally focused on the E-Cat not possibly working, is so reinforced that it’s really difficult to make room for pieces not fitting in. However, I think that alternative is less likely.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Mats,

          I do appreciate the info Smith has provided, especially the photos of the inside of the JM Black Box that shows the 92,670 L/Day capacity primary Condensate flow pump, the images of the condensate pipe to the ECat, showing the Flow Meter and the statement that the internal condensate holding tank is vented to atmo via a condensate vent pipe, which I was able to find and identify.

          What we now know is:

          1) There is more than ample capacity to pump 32,000 L/Day of condensate.

          2) There is an unconventional design steam trap on the OUTLET of the heat exchanger inside the JM Black Box.

          3) There is a vent pipe on the condensate system inside the ECat that will maintain a 2-3m head of water pressure at the bottom of the condensate tank & Flow Meter.

          4) That vent pipe and the 2-3m head of water it generates will ensure the Flow Meter is always filled with fluid.

          7) This kills a lot of past speculation about partly filled flow meter and there not being enough total pump capacity to supply the stated 32,000 L/Day.

          5) There is an unconventional steam trap and steam recovery system on the OUTLET of the heat exchanger inside the JM Black Box.

          6) There are 4 pipes running up the wall from the JM Black Box and across the ceiling. Where they go is uncertain but they do support there was another heat exchanger in the upper story of the warehouse.

          Overall Smith has done a good job for Rossi.

          • Bob Greenyer

            E48

            Whilst I do not normally comment on AR/IH epic I must say that your most recent diagram linking to photographic evidence appears to be the most accurate depiction of the operation of the ‘1MW’ unit.

            Filling the reactors part way would ensure super heating steam. the position of the pipes all make logical sense.

            As far as I can tell, the ‘black box’ is just a MASSIVE radiator designed to very evenly release the heat which would mean that the thermal sink side would have a VERY long time constant. This would lead to very stable data.

            The copper pipes at the bottom I think are some kind of heat pipe arrangement – though this is pure speculation.

            What you are presenting is

            1. just coherent facts based on photos and logic, regardless of your position
            2. refreshingly consistent and is following all the evidence rather than trying to prove a position.

          • Engineer48

            Hi BG,

            Comments appreciated.

            Thanks to Smith’s new images, the holes in my earlier system schematic has been filled in and I now have a very good understanding of how the system worked from an engineering design standpoint.

            My position has always been that which the images show, plus a few hints from Rossi, ie he told me there was another much bigger condensate pump that supplied most of the condensate flow and that the 6 small pumps per Tiger were just topping up pumps to maintain a constant water level inside the Tigers.

            What he shared was backed up by the photographic data.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Those contemporaneous comments to you, might lead you to be a witness you understand. If not now, but in an appeal.

            I would imagine that the ‘black box’ acts almost as a thermal battery, meaning that some down time and fixes could be conducted and then a little over heating could make up any drop outs. That way you would have extremely consistent temperature differentials across averaging periods even with some variation in the up time of reactors.

            To me, it would appear that a system was designed to ensure that the requirements of the contract were met. Just like there are those that are selecting data to show a pre-determined legal position. Human nature.

            The result is, some of the data appears to make no sense at first glance – but the actual system gives it context.

            The GPT had to produce over a minimum COP for the entire test – it looks like the thermal engineers went overboard to ensure that happened.

      • GiveADogABone

        There is a relevant comment in Barry West’s deposition. The general line of inquiry was about the amount of Iron Oxide inside the system. Barry made the point that they had to keep cleaning the [inside of the] gauge glasses because they could not see the water level. Hardly a problem if you run the whole system filled with water!

        I have yet to have any response to the question, ‘How do you run the steam pipes full of water with a ‘half a glass’ water level in the gauge glasses.’

        As an aside, I cannot find anything that indicates that the system was ever chemically cleaned and passivated after assembly. Even my domestic heating system has been done. As a result the internals are black with protective magnetite and the magnetic filter works. Magnetite requires low oxygen levels, otherwise it turns into red rust. Did they do anything about that? Note the colour of the metal surfaces in the opened E-cat module.

  • Wish I had super powers to read all the documents released in the last month. I have only read pieces, but wherever I look, I’m happy to see that what I believe to be facts fit together in a coherent way, which is usually the case with the truth. You never know what smart lawyers can achieve, but I think this will be interesting to see playing out in court.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Mats,

      Likewise.

      I go with the photographic evidence and what I see strongly supports the Rossi story.

      The IH Experts seems to have no real understanding of how Rossi claims his ECats work, as with Smith claiming the Tigers can not generate Super Heated steam yet he has never seen inside them.

      Maybe if he reviewed some of your past data on the earlier square ECat and the Super Heater fins in the steam space, plus the sight gauges that clearly show the Tigers are not operated flooded, he might learn something.

      While I have not yet seen and photos of the inside of the Tigers, from the multiple power feeds through the sides, I assume they are built of many of the square reactor modules, with the Steam Super Heating fins sticking up into the saturated steam space.

      So to close, the images of the Tiger gauge glasses clearly show Smith is incorrect and the Tigers did not operate flooded. Very strange statement as Smith had the opportunity to examine the gauge glasses and would have seen the stains that indicated the control water level inside the Tigers.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/26b0f158c4545db0dfddc971a49cad49b57ba61bd9a205b077c9fde8bc335989.png
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/386933232b423e5eceb50594c27ba013508a6dc1e9230565f55552ea46815a00.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f5478ac444962b2fe3edcabd5147e8fb819b3804b40d688123f4b8a8d1d6a1fa.jpg
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a18414dcc41f84aa5f0897520b47814f9232a1eba72edc67c35051efa21b30ff.png
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f8b3b65bd18683949e88c4f32458ed5578b7ade5fd3408f92808669e950fe271.jpg
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/32c219954db58a3d2f889e87a56179b224e40172056274b6fd582d4bbddfda5b.png

      • Eng48—I believe the simple reason the IH expert doesn’t see what you see is that IH doesn’t want him to see. Otherwise IH would immediately have to pay $89M. That’s also why I make a reservation for smart lawyers. The other alternative is that IH’s belief system, totally focused on the E-Cat not possibly working, is so reinforced that it’s really difficult to make room for pieces not fitting in. However, I think that alternative is less likely.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Mats,

          I do appreciate the info Smith has provided, especially the photos of the inside of the JM Black Box that shows the 92,670 L/Day capacity primary Condensate flow pump, the images of the condensate pipe to the ECat, showing the Flow Meter and the statement that the internal condensate holding tank is vented to atmo via a condensate vent pipe, which I was able to find and identify.

          What we now know is:

          1) There is more than ample capacity to pump 32,000 L/Day of condensate.

          2) There is an unconventional design steam trap on the OUTLET of the heat exchanger inside the JM Black Box.

          3) There is a vent pipe on the condensate system inside the ECat that will maintain a 2-3m head of water pressure at the bottom of the condensate tank & Flow Meter.

          4) That vent pipe and the 2-3m head of water it generates will ensure the Flow Meter is always filled with fluid.

          5) This kills a lot of past speculation about partly filled flow meter and there not being enough total pump capacity to supply the stated 32,000 L/Day.

          6) There is an unconventional steam trap and steam recovery system on the OUTLET of the heat exchanger inside the JM Black Box.

          7) There are 4 pipes running up the wall from the JM Black Box and across the ceiling. Where they go is uncertain but they do support there was another heat exchanger in the upper story of the warehouse.

          Overall Smith has done a good job for Rossi.

          • Bob Greenyer

            E48

            Whilst I do not normally comment on AR/IH epic I must say that your most recent diagram linking to photographic evidence appears to be the most accurate depiction of the operation of the ‘1MW’ unit.

            Filling the reactors part way would ensure super heating steam. the position of the pipes all make logical sense.

            As far as I can tell, the ‘black box’ is just a MASSIVE radiator designed to very evenly release the heat which would mean that the thermal sink side would have a VERY long time constant. This would lead to very stable data.

            The copper pipes at the bottom I think are some kind of heat pipe arrangement – though this is pure speculation.

            What you are presenting is

            1. just coherent facts based on photos and logic, regardless of your position
            2. refreshingly consistent and is following all the evidence rather than trying to prove a position.

          • Engineer48

            Hi BG,

            Comments appreciated.

            Thanks to Smith’s new images, the holes in my earlier system schematic has been filled in and I now have a very good understanding of how the system worked from an engineering design standpoint.

            My position has always been that which the images show, plus a few hints from Rossi, ie he told me there was another much bigger condensate pump that supplied most of the condensate flow and that the 6 small pumps per Tiger were just topping up pumps to maintain a constant water level inside the Tigers.

            What he shared was backed up by the photographic data.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Those contemporaneous comments to you, might lead you to be a witness you understand. If not now, but in an appeal.

            I would imagine that the ‘black box’ acts almost as a thermal battery, meaning that some down time and fixes could be conducted and then a little over heating could make up any drop outs. That way you would have extremely consistent temperature differentials across averaging periods even with some variation in the up time of reactors. Additional control of the thermal sink could be made by adjusting the cooling vent fans to reduce the losses from the black box.

            To me, it would appear that a system was designed to ensure that the requirements of the contract were met. Just like there are those that are selecting data to show a pre-determined legal position. Human nature.

            The result is, some of the data appears to make no sense at first glance – but the actual system gives it context.

            The GPT had to produce over a minimum COP for the entire test – it looks like the thermal engineers went overboard to ensure that happened.

          • AbyssUK

            E48, has pretty much convinced me that this system was indeed a super heated steam system and the guy who made this report was indeed biased towards proving otherwise, so in his own words the rest of his report “must be reviewed with extreme skepticism”

      • GiveADogABone

        There is a relevant comment in Barry West’s deposition. The general line of inquiry was about the amount of Iron Oxide inside the system. Barry made the point that they had to keep cleaning the [inside of the] gauge glasses because they could not see the water level. Hardly a problem if you run the whole system filled with water!

        I have yet to have any response to the question, ‘How do you run the steam pipes full of water with a ‘half a glass’ water level in the gauge glasses.’

        As an aside, I cannot find anything that indicates that the system was ever chemically cleaned and passivated after assembly. Even my domestic heating system has been done. As a result the internals are black with protective magnetite and the magnetic filter works. Magnetite requires low oxygen levels, otherwise it turns into red rust. Did they do anything about that? Note the colour of the metal surfaces in the opened E-cat module.

  • John Page

    @Engineer48
    I don’t think your most recent drawing is correct. It would require the internal tank be pressurized. I think this is more likely. Its a closed loop with the internal tank and small pumps for top off only. But we all appear to be guessing.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ee17416fd9cdaa7c09417b4c1d2c06f9954d3999da2002759c18b01a78253fe0.png

    • Engineer48

      Hi JP,

      Penon shows the system as I drew it. In your modified drawing how does condensate enter the internal holding tank?

      There is a vent pipe on the internal holding tank that exits through the roof of the container and is open to atmo. So water level can climb high enough for the Red condensate pump to deliver 80% of the condensate to the highest Tiger. Pressurisation in the internal holding tank is only an approx 2.5m head of water. So not a lot of pressure.

      You can see the pipe that vents the internal to the container condensate system to atmo on the left side of the attached image. Note the top of the vent pipe is higher than the top most Tiger, so the Red condensate pump in the JM Black Box can fill it.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8b91f2c92c9e09fa3052e698caa9f76c2eaa9aa91ce06b6756e2ae8662385630.png

    • Engineer48

      Hi JP,

      Try this modification. Thanks to Smith for pointing out the existence of the vent pipe. Like almost every piece of piping in the ECat system, it serves a dual purpose and I had only considered one of those purposes.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2409460a62d70bf24cf33c6cf43b29f1ef15f94b4a45ad837ea821417b722bff.png

      • John Page

        I don’t see how the bottom pipe could have any pressure into the tigers, if the tank is open to atmo. As far as my version, the condensate does not go into the tank. The only reason I suggest it, is that it seems most efficient to pump the hot water directly back to the reactors. Why let it cool off first, if this was a real production plant, you would not just waste that heat. A closed loop circulation system with the tank and small pumps to top off the system when needed. Think home boiler system with a circulation pump and they have a special valve to top of the system from the regular pressurized drinking water system. Also the scenario I proposed would have incredible consistency in flow rate, which explains and matches the flow data.

        • Engineer48

          Hi JP,

          The condensate tank is not open to atmo as such. What is opened to atmo is the TOP end of the condensate vent pipe that is 3m above the internal condensate tank. That places a 3m head of water pressure at the lowest point of the condensate hydraulic system. That being the flow meter and the internal condensate tank.

          • Stephen

            You can see the “internal tank” in the in the back ground in the right hand picture of page 15 of the report. And on the floor in the picture on page 24 of the report.

            I’m not sure how to link them here but for sure it does not look open to the elements.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            The fitting on the side of the tank looks to be very well sealed, so YES I expect the internal condensate holding tank is sealed enough to hold a 2-3m head of water’s pressure.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c039dadec84d39f417777ac8fc051ab8acffdd5584315a2cfd0f3491d510562a.png

          • Stephen

            Yup it looks that way. But now I’m curious how the external tank works with this set up. Apparently the water level was kept level in the internal tank by water supplied from an external tank. But I’m not sure if this makes sense in the pressurized system or not?

            Also where is the external tank located. I didn’t see it in the pictures of the outside if the container.

            I guess it can’t be the small clear box with the “water filter” in the JMP plant… could it? Seems unlikely to me. On the other hand where is it?

            Is it the small red box we see on the near side of the container in some pictures?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            All we can see is there it looks like the external water topping up tank system was attached.

            It may well be the Red Tank in the Trademark image.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9a8cc4f0b20dcd73eb968648d4c754cd7311b2a6b227cc475c21d1d92e8f29a0.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f5576d23b0afb19897f2a2fcbb65efcc30d53835691f10d12ec48793bf175b80.png

          • Stephen

            Yup in the image on page 15 of the report with the white lagged condensate tank in the background you can see a black pipe coming from the left and joining the the tank about half way up th side. I guess this could be coming from the external red tank in the Trademark image.

        • Obvious

          West said that the water in the tank was vigorously boiling. He sometimes had to top up the tank.

          • SG

            He might have confused turbidity with boiling.

          • Stephen

            Well I guess the water internal tank would be full of water if the water head was higher than the top of the tank.. unless it had an air trap or something.

            So I wonder if he was talking about the internal tank or the Tigers themselves?

            On the other hand there is also the discription of the external tank being used to top up the internal tank so the water level in the internal tank is kept constant.

            So there are still some things that need to be explained and understood.

            Did Barry West mean he had to top up the external tank?

            How is the external tank used with the internal tank and how do we reconcile this with the apparent head?

            Did Barry mean he heard the water “boiling” in the internal tank or in the water tanks in the Tigers themselves? I’m not sure that is clear either.

            To what level were the condensor pipes full of water and is this consistent with the suggested head? Or is the pump necessary to explain that… ?

            So still plenty of outstanding questions even though the picture is already much clearer I think thanks to Engineer48.

          • Obvious

            It seemed like the external tank is that red box at the side in the USPTO photo from various depositions, and looking at some of the new photos. It had some sort of float and valve, but seemed to need manual attention often.
            So much of the various depositions is unpublished that it is hard to work out a lot of details other than what the lawyers are try to make a point of.
            I was considering seeing if there are enough pieces of some peoples’ depositions that they could be stitched together enough to make any more sense.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            This is the best image of the connectors used to connect the external tank to the internal tank.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8618c9bbb113ea8e13f9d55296d95dbda278a333f254dbc8186af283b509d157.png

            I suggest that the external tank could be pressurised to give a desired barg pressure, which would then be a measure of the internal condensate head height. 2.5 mtr will generate 0.245 barg of pressure at the bottom or at the connector location.

            So fairly easy to know the height of the internal condensate head by measuring the pressure.

          • Stephen

            Yup i agree with your logic although pressure systems are out side my direct experience. But I think that this connector is on the other side of the container compared to the red box in the “trade mark picture” that we think contains the external tank.

            That said I’m very curious what the yellow label on the container below the connector says in the picture you linked.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            I expect it says:
            CONDENSATE

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9a12f38d6e3a69a355a9349969c9abea459c7a4c055f6b2bf2864cfa78b65456.jpg

            Like the label lower right on the Condensate riser.

  • John Page

    @Engineer48
    I don’t think your most recent drawing is correct. It would require the internal tank be pressurized. I think this is more likely. Its a closed loop with the internal tank and small pumps for top off only. But we all appear to be guessing.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ee17416fd9cdaa7c09417b4c1d2c06f9954d3999da2002759c18b01a78253fe0.png

    • Engineer48

      Hi JP,

      Penon shows the system as I drew it. In your modified drawing how does condensate enter the internal holding tank?

      There is a vent pipe on the internal holding tank that exits through the roof of the container and is open to atmo. So water level can climb high enough for the Red condensate pump to deliver 80% of the condensate to the highest Tiger. Pressurisation in the internal holding tank is only an approx 2.5m head of water. So not a lot of pressure.

      You can see the pipe that vents the internal to the container condensate system to atmo on the left side of the attached image. Note the top of the vent pipe is higher than the top most Tiger, so the Red condensate pump in the JM Black Box can fill it.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8b91f2c92c9e09fa3052e698caa9f76c2eaa9aa91ce06b6756e2ae8662385630.png

    • Engineer48

      Hi JP,

      Try this modification. Thanks to Smith for pointing out the existence of the vent pipe. Like almost every piece of piping in the ECat system, it serves a dual purpose and I had only considered one of those purposes.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2409460a62d70bf24cf33c6cf43b29f1ef15f94b4a45ad837ea821417b722bff.png

      • John Page

        I don’t see how the bottom pipe could have any pressure into the tigers, if the tank is open to atmo. As far as my version, the condensate does not go into the tank. The only reason I suggest it, is that it seems most efficient to pump the hot water directly back to the reactors. Why let it cool off first, if this was a real production plant, you would not just waste that heat. A closed loop circulation system with the tank and small pumps to top off the system when needed. Think home boiler system with a circulation pump and they have a special valve to top of the system from the regular pressurized drinking water system. Also the scenario I proposed would have incredible consistency in flow rate, which explains and matches the flow data.

        • Engineer48

          Hi JP,

          The condensate tank is not open to atmo as such. What is opened to atmo is the TOP end of the condensate vent pipe that is 3m above the internal condensate tank. That places a 3m head of water pressure at the lowest point of the condensate hydraulic system. That being the flow meter and the internal condensate tank.

          • Stephen

            You can see the “internal tank” in the in the back ground in the right hand picture of page 15 of the report. And on the floor in the picture on page 24 of the report.

            I’m not sure how to link them here but it looks well insulated and for sure it does not look open to the elements.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            The fitting on the side of the tank looks to be very well sealed, so YES I expect the internal condensate holding tank is sealed enough to hold a 2-3m head of water’s pressure.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c039dadec84d39f417777ac8fc051ab8acffdd5584315a2cfd0f3491d510562a.png

          • Stephen

            Yup it looks that way. But now I’m curious how the external tank works with this set up. Apparently the water level was kept level in the internal tank by water supplied from an external tank. But I’m not sure if this makes sense in the pressurized system or not?

            Also where is the external tank located. I didn’t see it in the pictures of the outside if the container.

            I guess it can’t be the small clear box with the “water filter” in the JMP plant… could it? Seems unlikely to me. On the other hand where is it?

            Is it inside he container nearby or on top of the “internal” tank?

            Is it the small red box we see on the near side of the container in some pictures?

            Do we know it’s size?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            All we can see is there it looks like the external water topping up tank system was attached.

            It may well be the Red Tank in the Trademark image.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9a8cc4f0b20dcd73eb968648d4c754cd7311b2a6b227cc475c21d1d92e8f29a0.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f5576d23b0afb19897f2a2fcbb65efcc30d53835691f10d12ec48793bf175b80.png

          • Stephen

            Yup in the image on page 15 of the report with the white lagged condensate tank in the background you can see a black pipe coming from the left and joining the the tank about half way up th side. I guess this could be coming from the external red tank in the Trademark image.

            You can also see that black pipe go through the wall of the container in the background at the right of your “high res picture of the pump array”

            So I think it must be going to the small external red container.

          • Bruce__H

            I think you are correct in your deductions. The red external tank is the one that Barry West talks about in his deposition. He says it is quite large. Penon says it feeds the internal water tank by gravity and that the level of the 2 tanks is maintained equal.

            This means that Engineer’s views of the internal tank having a 2.5 m pressure head on it is wrong. I don’t know why he wasn’t more concerned when you pointed this out to him. .

        • Obvious

          West said that the water in the tank was vigorously boiling. He sometimes had to top up the tank.

          • SG

            He might have confused turbidity with boiling.

          • Stephen

            Well I guess the water internal tank would be full of water if the water head was higher than the top of the tank.. unless it had an air trap or something.

            So I wonder if he was talking about the internal tank or the Tigers themselves?

            On the other hand there is also the discription of the external tank being used to top up the internal tank so the water level in the internal tank is kept constant.

            So there are still some things that need to be explained and understood.

            Did Barry West mean he had to top up the external tank?

            How is the external tank used with the internal tank and how do we reconcile this with the apparent head?

            Did Barry mean he heard the water “boiling” in the internal tank or in the water tanks in the Tigers themselves? I’m not sure that is clear either.

            To what level were the condensor pipes full of water and is this consistent with the suggested head? Or is the pump necessary to explain that… ?

            So still plenty of outstanding questions even though the picture is already much clearer I think thanks to Engineer48.

          • Obvious

            It seemed like the external tank is that red box at the side in the USPTO photo from various depositions, and looking at some of the new photos. It had some sort of float and valve, but seemed to need manual attention often.
            So much of the various depositions is unpublished that it is hard to work out a lot of details other than what the lawyers are try to make a point of.
            I was considering seeing if there are enough pieces of some peoples’ depositions that they could be stitched together enough to make any more sense.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            This is the best image of the connectors used to connect the external tank to the internal tank. It’s horizontal location aligns with the internal condensate holding tank’s position inside the ECat container.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8618c9bbb113ea8e13f9d55296d95dbda278a333f254dbc8186af283b509d157.png

            I suggest that the external tank could be pressurised to give a desired barg pressure, which would then be a measure of the internal condensate head height. 2.5 mtr will generate 0.245 barg of pressure at the bottom or at the connector location.

            So if the pressure was less than 0.245 barg, the condensate system needed more liquid, the pump in the external holding tank would be switched on, water would flow into the internal holding tank, condensate head and pressure would increase to 0.245 barg and then the pump would be turned off and the external tank disconnected until needed again.

            So fairly easy to know the height of the internal condensate head by measuring the pressure.

          • Stephen

            Yup i agree with your logic although pressure systems are out side my direct experience. But I think that this connector is on the other side of the container compared to the red box in the “trade mark picture” that we think contains the external tank.

            That said I’m very curious what the yellow label on the container below the connector says in the picture you linked.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            I expect it says:
            CONDENSATE

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9a12f38d6e3a69a355a9349969c9abea459c7a4c055f6b2bf2864cfa78b65456.jpg

            Like the label lower right on the Condensate riser.

  • Dr. Mike

    I am not certain if all of the assumptions made by Smith are correct, but I will say his report is representative of what I would expect with $89M on the line (as compared to Penon’s report). It will be interesting to see if Rossi replies to each issue that he believes to be incorrect in the Smith analysis. One thing for certain that was neglected by Penon was a detailed description of how each measurement instrument was calibrated. The critical temperature measurement was just what was read off a digital meter. How was the temperature sensor and the digital meter calibrated?

    • Engineer48

      Hi Dr. Mike,

      Penon has claimed all his instruments were calibrated under expected working conditions prior to installation and after removal.

      To my knowledge those certification certificates have not yet surfaced.

  • Engineer48

    My take, using a modification of a Smith diagram, of how the ECat & JM Black Box Heat Exchanger vs Gravity stacked up.

    Please note this is based on existing visual evidence and not on conjecture.

    The Flow Meter sits at the bottom of a 2-3m water head, via the Condensate Vent pipe mentioned by Smith. How the Tiger are filled by the dual Condensate flow systems is a bit more complex than the simple diagram The main Red condensate flow pump that is inside the JM Black Box maintains an approx 2-3m head of water above the Flow meter and the internal to the ECat reactor Condensate holding tank.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5e7a9cea8b552574d350909d178b89015e9ddfe4de823af0617bf9afedef64a8.png

    • GiveADogABone

      Your diagram is clearly wrong as far as IH are concerned. The flowmeter would always be full and operating properly at a flow of about 1500kg/h, if the heat production was 1MW.

      Another point is that the Prominent pumps would be operating with a negative backpressure, the pumps lower down more so than the top ones. What would their maximum capacity be under those conditions? The rating plate says 32 liters/hour but that is with high backpressure. At medium backpressure the pumps are stated to pump 36 liters/hour.

      Another point is that the thermal expansion of the straight steam pipe between the containers is something like 3cm. How does the pipework arrangement cope with that?

      • Engineer48

        HI GADAB,

        That Smith admitted vent pipe, which I found, very clearly shows there should be 2-3m heat of water/condensate at the lowest point in the condensate circulation system.

        For sure it destroys the half filled flow meter theory.

        The 92,670 L/Day Red pump in the JM Black Box also destroys Smith’s claim that the only flow source was the small Tiger topping up pumps, on which he based almost all his report.

        The images, the condensate vent pipe and pump specs don’t lie or mislead.

    • Bruce__H

      You don’t have visual evidence that the condensate return pipe feeds the return tank directly.nor do you have visual evidence that the vertical pipe beside the Tiger pumps is connected directly to the condensate tank. These are suppositions.

  • Engineer48

    My take, using a modification of a Smith diagram, of how the ECat & JM Black Box Heat Exchanger vs Gravity stacked up.

    Please note this is based on existing visual evidence and not on conjecture.

    The Flow Meter sits at the bottom of a 2-3m water head, via the Condensate Vent pipe mentioned by Smith. How the Tiger are filled by the dual Condensate flow systems is a bit more complex than the simple diagram The main Red condensate flow pump that is inside the JM Black Box maintains an approx 2-3m head of water above the Flow meter and the internal to the ECat reactor Condensate holding tank.

    Modified the original image to include the Tiger Gauge Glasses which show the Tigers were not operated flooded as Smith claims.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a7be659ee4e0b68d2d215693f3d81ec6b8c4563e9921df98356dc8b8e7fd16fe.png

    • GiveADogABone

      Your diagram is clearly wrong as far as IH are concerned. The flowmeter would always be full and operating properly at a flow of about 1500kg/h, if the heat production was 1MW.

      Another point is that the Prominent pumps would be operating with a negative backpressure, the pumps lower down more so than the top ones. What would their maximum capacity be under those conditions? The rating plate says 32 liters/hour but that is with high backpressure. At medium backpressure the pumps are stated to pump 36 liters/hour.

      Another point is that the thermal expansion of the straight steam pipe between the containers is something like 3cm. How does the pipework arrangement cope with that?

      • Engineer48

        HI GADAB,

        That Smith admitted vent pipe, which I found, very clearly shows there should be 2-3m heat of water/condensate at the lowest point in the condensate circulation system.

        For sure it destroys the half filled flow meter theory.

        The 92,670 L/Day Red pump in the JM Black Box also destroys Smith’s claim that the only flow source was the small Tiger topping up pumps, on which he based almost all his report.

        The images, the condensate vent pipe and pump specs don’t lie or mislead.

    • Bruce__H

      You don’t have visual evidence that the condensate return pipe feeds the return tank directly.nor do you have visual evidence that the vertical pipe beside the Tiger pumps is connected directly to the condensate tank. These are suppositions.

  • Stephen

    A quick question Engineer48:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1a1cebe9f29851cb37db0e8ea18dd9902b7893f427cd1e364e5cfd5764a6610d.png

    Regarding the split flow to the of the condensate to the Tiger (BF) units. One via the topping up pumps and the other a direct flow to the (BF) tanks does this picture show what you mean?

    If you look at the left hand pipe in this picture it seems to me to split near the top in to 2 pipes. 1 insulated pipe going to the top row of topping up pumps, the other in insulated branch going directly in to the top tankin the left side

    Here is another view where you can see it also goes to the other tanks. (This view was previously annotated I think by Paradigmnoia on LF to show “rust” in the clear pipes)

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b38106ea1d010a507f879c4dd3e488bee460afe5230ec1c919119555868e4af6.jpg

    It seems to me the main flow goes directly to the Tigers but a controlled flow goes through the topping up pumps where needed.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Stephen,

      The topping up pumps are feed via the 4 white horizontal headers at the base, each white base header feeding 6 pumps, then via flex tubing to the pumps and then via flex tubing straight up from the pumps into the upper header and then that upper header dumps down into the pipe that supplies the main condensate flow. That main condensate flow is throttled by the Yellow manually adjusted valves that feed off the vertical condensate vent pipe.

      A bit tricky setup but it should work as claimed.

      • Stephen

        This is just a crazy question that I’m wondering about.

        Could suction also play a role in giving the condensate sufficient head to supply the Tigers. Rather than direct pump pressure.

        We suspect that the super heated steam is removed by suction could there a certain amount of suction also drawing the condensate into the Tigers ?

        Or would this effect be too little.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Stephen,

          As GiveADogABone explained, the 2-3m water head on the inlet side of the pumps will mean some of the pumps may be operating under negative back pressure as the pump output back pressure would be around 0.1 barg as the superheated steam outputs at 0.0 barg.

          Doing the maths, a 2.5m head of water or condensate will generate approx 0.245 barg of pressure, which could indicate the lowest Tiger pumps may be operating with negative or null back pressure and so might output more than 32 L/Day. However to supply 56 L/Hr of condensate, for 250kW output per Tiger, the pumps would need to be operating well above rated capacity, even with no back pressure. So somewhere Rossi has plumbed in a raw condensate supply driven by the big Red pump in the JM Black Box.

          • Obvious

            The Prominent pumps are also operating well above their rated temperature range.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            With proper case material selection can do 65C fluid forever. Which is what the Condensate temp is.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7f296b9e7c088e03c5572f5cdd0fc8a86386e991fac45b84aef996995bf002fd.png

          • Obvious

            I guess we can check the label.

          • Obvious
          • Andreas Moraitis

            The model number ECCO0232PPB007UA01B000 (235-10, p. 17) seems to indicate polypropylene. See the corresponding codes on p. 7 of the manual.

            http://www.prominentxtranet.com/pdf/GammaL2.pdf

          • Andreas Moraitis

            BTW this is not relevant for the case, and apparently the pumps did somehow their job. But no wonder that there were so many leaks…

          • Goodrice

            It seems that Rossi used a variant that exists only in the Italian market, which appears to be for the most part a slightly downgraded version of the Gamma/L model, but with the same base technical specifications.

            http://share.prominent.com/Product-Catalogues/Catalogo-Prodotti/Tecnologia-per-piscine.pdf

            http://i.imgur.com/ag5teQO.png

          • Stephen

            Hi Engineer48, what you say all makes sense. But I wonder if it could be the other way round. Could the back pressure be drawing the normal flow round the circuit and in to the Tigers directly by passing the topping up pumps and the path through the topping up pumps only be used to top up the level due to Losses as a result of insufficient head or leakages in the normal circuit?

            That back pressure could be generated by either the red pump in the JMP container at start up or during normal operation if used then but also due to condensation and head at the condensor it self to some extent during normal operations.

            Perhaps these topping up pumps are regulated by the control system to ensure correct water level and pressure in the Tigers.

            If they are only intermittently used like this it might help explain why the pipes get dirty if still water is necessary for that and also that they could be used for short periods at higher temperatures.

            To me it also seems more logical from a control system point of view. As the flows could be more easily dynamically regulated.

            But it would depend if there is sufficient back pressure to draw the water into the Tigers through the circuit by passing one water pumps.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        The black boxes on the left side behind the yellow handles seem to be automatic valves. Presumably they will be closed as long as the small pumps work. But why are there multiple pumps feeding the same line? One might rather expect that they would control the reactor modules individually – otherwise, one pump per line would suffice.

    • Bruce__H

      In the top picture (taken by Smith I think) the vertical pipe is not connected to the bottom Tiger or the 3rd from the bottom. I can’t tell about the 2nd from the bottom because the “Authorized personnel only” sign is in the way.

      If this vertical pipe supplies both the pumps and the Tiger/BF units with water then how can this be?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce_H,

        I go by the high res pump and plumbing image that has all the Green pump lights on and the pump indicators displaying the pumping values, meaning they were in operation.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8b91f2c92c9e09fa3052e698caa9f76c2eaa9aa91ce06b6756e2ae8662385630.png

        Rossi may have altered the piping in the Smith image to confuse those that were to follow.

        • Stephen

          Yup it’s clear from the pictures the pipes are rearranged. I don’t think they were altered to confuse people though. I think it’s quite likely the left hand pipe is also used to fill the Tigers with water in the beginning and in another arrangement those pipes allow efficient drainage of the Tigers.

          I’m not 100% sure but I think in the first picture I sent above the left hand pipe top goes through the wall of the ECat container at a hight higher than the top Tiger near the roof. This could maybe make sense if the tanks were filled from there, but I’m guessing a bit.

          It’s interesting that the left hand pipe is not lagged which might make sense if it is used to fill the tanks at the beginning of the test for example.

          Or is this the vent pipe. Now I see it makes sense good point about that.

        • Bruce__H

          As far as I know the Smith image is of a state that the ecat plant was in when it was said to be producing excess heat, at high COP, on the final day of operation. Once the plant was shut down, padlocks were placed on the container. I don’t think Rossi had a chance to alter things.

          If you were to accept this as a working state of the plant. How would it work?

        • Bruce__H

          Again.

          The pipe arrangement in Smith’s photo (the photo with the “authorized personnel only” sign) seems to represent a legitimate operational state of the system. I think you must deal with it somehow, and blaming it on Rossi shenanigans won’t do.

          How would this work? Is it a shutdown state? Something for draining the system?

  • Engineer48

    To make the point about the gauge glass and why they are so important, here are the 4 gauge glasses and their stains. The clear bottom gauge glass was probably broken by a passing shoe and replaced.

    Gauge glasses are occasionally opened at the top and the yuck inside flows out as can be seen in the staining near the top gauge glass valves. If really dirty, they are removed and cleaned or replaced.

    Point being it is clear where the water level inside each Tiger was and that the Tigers DID NOT OPERATE FLOODED as Smith claims.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/427f32466b2d41dc81937cf7294d275158a4e1473886c0f918b16cbc226be81c.png

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c1a88ce3211c610a109e9fe70759908b9685d4cc5598db5b44e3c6be0a61495f.png

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a6eb994d79de07289bfcbf9aa68bc20dd451af5c6dd2a3c3dead168067c40cbe.png

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c576523d784c981383ddc86f969a9d98b363aff11018ac5b0108f17539e99b3d.png

    • Brilliant. Hope this is brought up in court.

    • Bruce__H

      I don’t think that the IH experts believe that the reactors operated flooded all the time. I think that they believe that the BF/Tiger units generate low-quality steam that is then used to help heat the flow of water around the system.

      The idea that the fins in the ecat units generate dry superheated steam is yours. I’m not sure it would work at all. Do you know definitely? Have you ever heard of a system like this that superheats? I can see that, theoretically, if the fins were high enough above the water and hot enough, and had enough surface area that they would superheat (at a pretty high pressure I would have thought) but I don’t get a good feeling about the configuration I have seen in pictures. It looks to me as though the water would push itself up as boiling bubbles between the fins and that the breaking of the bubbles would constantly cast up droplets that would be entrained into the flow of vapour.

      Would you be able to conduct a trial to see if it works? If you stick a heating element half covered with water in a vessel does it produce superheated steam?

      • Björn-Ola

        If the preassure in the ecat is higher than in the pipe after the ecat, then yuo should get superheated steam. I see no problem with this.

        • Bruce__H

          Why does a difference in pressure indicate to you that the steam could be superheated? Would the pressure reduction somehow be producing the superheated steam?

          • Björn-Ola

            Yes.
            Is there any water on Mars?

      • GiveADogABone

        Could you give me and E48 the references to the documents that inform your beliefs stated in paragraph one? I would be happy to take a look.

        • Bruce__H

          Smiths’s report does say that the reactors ran flooded. That was my misreading. The reactors not needing to run flooded is in my head, not Smith’s or anyone at IH’s. My apologies..

          I don’t see why the reactors need to be flooded, however. As shown in the schematic on page 23 of his supplemental report, Smith thinks that the condensate return line goes into both the condensate return tank and the steam riser (I think he has detected that the riser is continuous at its base with the tank). As Smith describes, this means there is a flow of hot water circulating between the steam riser of the ecat plant and the JMP black box — a circulation that is driven by the red pump. There is, simultaneously a circulation from the base of the steam riser, into the condensate return tank, up into the Tigers, and then back to the steam riser. I don’t see why this has to mean that the Tigers run flooded. I think that they could generate low-quality steam that is then sent into the riser to keep the temperature there hot.

          • GiveADogABone

            No worries. Taking ‘I don’t see why the reactors need to be flooded, however.’ in isolation :
            From IH’s point of view it drastically reduces the specifc enthalpy change of the water as it circulates and therefore reduces the related CoP. Specific enthalpy of vapourisation is 2257kJ/kg and specific heat of water is 4.2kJ/kg C.

            At dT=30C for the water, the ratio is near a factor of 20, so an ERV CoP of 80 reduces to 80/20=4. IH’s target is below 6.

          • Bruce__H

            Sure. It might even mean COP = 1. That is what IH and Boeing found in their own tests of the ecat.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        The only look we have at the inside of a ECat superheater is attached.

        I suggest the water boils in the lower section and that around the edge of the reactor there is a tight gap to the case that allows the saturated steam to enter the upper section and be superheated. Don’t believe any water is normally in the upper finned superheating section.

        Which is why these ECat superheaters need gauge glasses and control systems on the topping up pumps to maintain the required water level so there is enough head space in the upper superheating space for the upper fins to heat the saturated steam, from the lower section, into superheated steam. Clever design.

        Believe the Tigers are multiple of these superheater ECat reactors.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f6200a4552a6fd34388887bfa737ddc4a506dd8dc3582a5716cafe59dc4b6ec0.png

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d057ef59117723f8bee16d943acb480e123f62aca37827d85542c9107659805a.png

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/32c219954db58a3d2f889e87a56179b224e40172056274b6fd582d4bbddfda5b.png

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/26b0f158c4545db0dfddc971a49cad49b57ba61bd9a205b077c9fde8bc335989.png

    • Steve Swatman

      Hi Engineer48, great to see you pumping out the logic on the forum.

      can I ask if you are experimenting yourself and how its all going, i seem to remember that you were planning some to do some practical homework.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Steve,

        Was going to do that then reality and paying bills altered the pathway. Currently involved in a really big project that is sucking +100% of my time. Only doing this because I had some down time, waiting for some information to arrive. Which has now arrived and I may not be able to do much more posting.

        • Ged

          It is great having you around and I must thank you for your insights. I very well understand how it goes, and I hope your project works out well!

        • Steve Swatman

          hi Engineer48, I guess life has a way of getting in the way of all the fun, i was expecting you to be the one who verified and proved all the nay sayers wrong. Still is good to see a man of logic and experience jumping in and showing some light in the darkness.

    • roseland67

      48,

      To my eye there is nothing “clear” about any of the gauge glass.

      We’re these taken before/during/after filling, testing, operation?
      Were they all new/clean when installed?

      Would like to see video gauge levels while the Ecat was running.

      But again, based on all you have been privy, do you believe the Ecat produces Energy Out > Energy In?

    • GiveADogABone

      236-49 : Deposition of Barry West
      “We actually had to remove [gauge glasses] and clean them and stuff, because it got so bad, you couldn’t see the water level, where the water level was actually in the unit in the reactor.”

      • Engineer48

        Hey GADAB,

        Of course. Exactly as the images show.

        So exit stage left the idea that the Tigers operated FLOODED and only pumped warm water.

        • Björn-Ola

          I think if
          it was water pumped around the outlet temperature should variate a bit. But
          with steam the temperature is fixed to the boiling temperature point. It is the
          flow that variates with the heating power.

          The only
          measurements are Penons and Fabianis as far as I know and IH needs to have
          other measurements to prove them wrong.

          I think that
          the heat exchanger is the problem. Wongs calculations are wrong because he use
          the temperature difference between the steam and the temperature of the
          incoming air.

          But with an
          airflow of 50.000m³/h the air needs to be heated 60°C to carry away 1MW of
          heat.

          That reduces
          the difference between the steam temperature and the air temperature a lot.

          If the inlet
          air temperature was 30°C the extract air temperature should be 90°C.

          • Ged

            No, that is not an error by Wong as far as I see. Heat exchangers are extremely efficient and you can buy exchangers for getting rid of 1.8 MW of heat with just 34k CFM room temp air.

            A heat exchanger works by counter current, and can easily heat the air up to nearly the temperature of the incoming steam when starting at room temp in one pass–and carry away all 1 MW no problem. This is why you see counter current heat exchangers everywhere in power plants, engineering, and biological organisms.

            See how counter current works here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Comparison_of_con-_and_counter-current_flow_exchange.jpg/400px-Comparison_of_con-_and_counter-current_flow_exchange.jpg

          • Björn-Ola

            But the air must be heated 60 °C. You cant use the inlet air temperature in the calculation. You should use a temperarure in the middle between the inlet air temperature and the outlet air temperature.

    • Dr. Mike

      Engineer48,
      Thanks for your efforts to figure out the real plumbing diagram for the 1MW system. My guess is that Rossi will have to eventually submit a detailed diagram to answer Smith’s report, otherwise the balance of evidence would favor IH’s position.

      Even if Smith’s report has errors, a judge /jury would have to give it more weight that the Penon report which lacks the detail necessary to understand the system.
      Dr. Mike

  • Michelangelo De Meo

    his calculations about the flow of the pumps is completely wrong because does not consider the integral with the hydraulic pressure

  • Barbierir

    I wish I had some engineering background to understand all this stuff, to my humble mind there seem to be knowledgeable people both here and on Lenr Forum that arrive to opposite conclusions from the same set of data.

    • The way I currently see it, many of the issues that IH and their boosters thought proved the 1 MW plant did not work have fallen by the wayside as more information has been revealed such as pipe diameter, flow meter position, super-heating the steam, etc.

      However the removal of the heat is still an issue. The existence and operation of a claimed heat exchanger on the second floor remains a huge mystery. No proof. As is what exactly was happening in the JMP crate (drying platinum sponge and graphene apparently).

      Question to the peanut gallery: so if the JMP crate was insulated on all sides except the bottom and is sitting on the cement warehouse floor, wouldn’t a lot of the heat transfer directly into the floor (then ground)?

      • Ged

        That was a nice “State of the Union” summary. Conduction into the concrete and then earth will happen, but it wouldn’t be a majority path, I think. Since there is no extensive geothermally sunk piping as far as we see. The thermal conductivity of concrete is 1-1.8 W/(m K), which is 400 times less than copper (so the concrete is the limiting factor for conduction). Given the surface area and difference in temperature between 103 C steam and room temp concrete, you might be looking at a few 10s of kW of cooling available that way. Just a very rough estimate, would need a lot more details for a more exact solution. So I could be quite off.

        • But the thermal conductivity of insulation is about a tenth of the concrete… so isn’t the concrete the preferred path of the heat (albeit it would get quite toasty in the black box)?

          • Dr. Mike

            LENR G,
            Rossi is going to have to explain how the heat was dissipated as it would have gotten quite “toasty” in the black box without some way to remove the heat. It’s too bad the heat wasn’t really being used to drive a chemical reaction so that the amount of final product produced would be a measure of the heat used.

          • While I am growing satisfied that the plant could have produced 1 MW, I’m not yet satisfied that the heat has been properly accounted for. However, I just see it as an open question requiring explanation with a number of possibilities and not a gotcha.

          • CWatters

            I’m less convinced that ever.

          • Ged

            That is true. It depends on how well sealed against airflow it is. Given the insulation, the internal temp of the container would get quite warm, but it can’t get hotter than the steam, else it’ll prevent the steam from dumping its heat and it would return as steam instead of condensate, if that makes sense. If the container was hotter than the steam, it would heat the steam rather than the other way around. So, it really is a matter of just how much surface area there is, and what natural temp the earth keeps the concrete.

            Now, if there was a fluid in those copper pipes, that could be used very easily to cool everything and pipe it to some other heat exchanger for convective discharge.

        • GiveADogABone

          https://www.containercontainer.com/shipping-container-dimensions
          The floor of a standard container has an underside clearance of approximately 6 inches (150mm)

          • Its metal feet (which would get quite hot) and perhaps more would be in direct contact with concrete floor.

      • Joseph J

        Maybe there was a closed loop absorption chiller in de black box?

  • BillH

    I still have many question, but here is just one. If this Grundfos pump was working as suggested then what happened during the time when one of the Frankies/Frankensteins/Tigers was switched off? The flow meter showed a reduced flow rate of 27M^3/day exactly a 25% reduction, which means to me that each Frankie was supply exactly 25% of the flow. No room for an additional pump which would have meant the flow being reduced by much less than 25%.

    • GiveADogABone

      what happened during the time when one of the Frankies/Frankensteins/Tigers was switched off?
      1: The six Prominent positive displacement pumps for that BF would be switched off and isolated and the Grundfos input line would be isolated.

      2: The Grundfos is a centrifugal (not positive displacement) pump and carries on running as before but changes it duty point. That is just jargon for its output pressure rises, so the input control on the other three BFs adjusts to keep their flow where it was. This is no different to a domestic central heating system when you open and close radiator valves.

      3: The steam line would be isolated as well.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        It is also possible that the level rises in the internal holding tank, increasing the outlet pressure that the Grundfos pump has to overcome. This will automatically reduce the flow due to the flow-pressure characteristics of the pump. Higher pressure, lower flow.

      • BillH

        The spec for the pump says it only has 3 speed settings, if this is any help.

        • GiveADogABone

          My concern would be that you may not be able to change speed with the pump running because of the response of the rest of the plant to the loss of flow. There may even be an trip parameter on the pump discharge pressure.

  • BillH

    I still have many question, but here is just one. If this Grundfos pump was working as suggested then what happened during the time when one of the Frankies/Frankensteins/Tigers was switched off? The flow meter showed a reduced flow rate of 27M^3/day exactly a 25% reduction, which means to me that each Frankie was supply exactly 25% of the flow. No room for an additional pump which would have meant the flow being reduced by much less than 25%.

    • GiveADogABone

      what happened during the time when one of the Frankies/Frankensteins/Tigers was switched off?
      1: The six Prominent positive displacement pumps for that BF would be switched off and isolated and the Grundfos input line would be isolated.

      2: The Grundfos is a centrifugal (not positive displacement) pump and carries on running as before but changes it duty point. That is just jargon for its output pressure rises and flow drops, so the input control on the other three BFs adjusts to keep their flow where it was. This is no different to a domestic central heating system when you open and close radiator valves.

      3: The steam line would be isolated as well.

      • Thomas Kaminski

        It is also possible that the level rises in the internal holding tank, increasing the outlet pressure that the Grundfos pump has to overcome. This will automatically reduce the flow due to the flow-pressure characteristics of the pump. Higher pressure, lower flow.

        • Engineer48

          Hi TK,

          Pump can drive a 19ft / 5.8mtr head. Only has to do a 2.5 mtr head, so easily done.

          I suggest somewhere in the control system there is a monitor on the Condensate head height and this regulates the power the Grundfos pump gets to maintain the Condensate head height constant.

          Look at these two images and see how high up the right, most white, pipe with the Condensate label circulation system goes. Almost to the top of the container. It is the Grundfos pump in the JM Black Box that drives up the Condensate head that high. About 2.5 mtr of Condensate head.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8f5fd0dfde9e5ed730f2ab89e262fe0e4cef1a06e3b3249334b014a4fc90b62f.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/83f3f1ae1d2a9ec67ab6e3ed2e5504b8d65d8ac7b682aa3e1ecc46a25a694cde.jpg

          • Bruce__H

            You are certainly right about the white insulated pipe on the right (in the lower picture) being labelled “condensate”. Nice catch! Why does it rise higher than the vertical pipe beside the Tiger/BF units and where does it go? Why does it look like it is entering the big horizontal pipe with the green label saying “Steam”?

          • Hi all

            In reply to Bruce__H

            The condensate pipe is clearly going over the top of the steam pipe. If it was going into it it would do so at the point where it reaches the same height. Instead it goes above the thickness of the insulation takes a vertical to horizontal bend above the insulation and crosses it at a 45 degree horizontal angle to reach the back wall where all the input and output pipes in any industrial system run above head height so as not to be in the way of human beings who could bump into or trip over pipes that ran lower and to keep things tidy and in a standard place.

            Piping water, gas, steam and electrics are all supposed to run:

            Vertically straight up or down from their junctions/access points, or when travelling between floors within 1 foot of an internal corner

            Horizontally either within a foot of the ceiling along a wall or below the floor or in-between floors in multi story buildings.

            Any other configuration would be unusual and probably dangerous as a result.

            Kind Regards walker

          • Bruce__H

            I don’t understand this condensate pipe then. Is it bringing condensate from the background of the picture, forward towards us? If it is, then why is it so high? Why is it higher than the pipe that rises vertically near the Tigers/BFs and is supposed to also carry condensate? That pipe is supposed to be open at the top –.wouldn’t that pipe then overflow?

          • Engineer48

            HI Ian,

            Here is another example.

            Note the vertical white pipe to Rossi’s right and labelled, at the bottom, Condensate .

            All in all, the Red Grundfos condensate return pump in the JM Black Box needs to pump the condensate up around 2.5mtr for these elevated condensate lines and for the vent pipe.

            Bottom line is the Flow Meter was very much always full of water as it was at the bottom of the 2.5 mtr condensate head.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f7063374d8f4caacd48927d3a7a8c0a496bdbb4c10587298b2ab9410f435e344.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a7be659ee4e0b68d2d215693f3d81ec6b8c4563e9921df98356dc8b8e7fd16fe.png

      • BillH

        The spec for the pump says it only has 3 speed settings, if this is any help.

        • GiveADogABone

          My concern would be that you may not be able to change speed with the pump running because of the response of the rest of the plant to the loss of flow. There may even be an trip parameter on the pump discharge pressure.

  • Mylan

    I find document 238-02 Exhibit 44 rather disturbing. Darden suggest measurements being also done by a big company like TÜV. Rossi insists that (only) Penon is qualified and trustworthy.

    Rossi explains that an engineer from TÜV could demand to see particulars that he deems industrial secrets. That is really absurd. If you hire TÜV to do the measurements, why would they see your industrial secrets, if you don’t let them? Just tell them you want to have the energy of the steam measured compared to electricity used and see what they need to do the measurements. If you don’t agree, it is still possible to look for another solution.

    Having measurements done by two engineers independent from each other and both being able to discuss issues in preparation and during measurements would have made any report just sooo much more credible and usefull.

    Reading this I feel Rossi wants to hide something and I don’t understand how IH could ever agree on these conditions.

    • I understand why that might be disturbing, but I think the alternative explanation that Rossi wanted to minimize the size of the inner circle is just as valid.

      There is no indication that Penon is corrupt. He’s a highly educated professional nuclear engineer who is not living the life of a multi-millionaire nor involved in any other shady activity that has been brought to light.

      • Mylan

        I don’t say Penon is corrupt. But in this case, two engineers are a lot better than one. Many of the questions that we are discussing here now may have come up if another engineer would have discussed the situtation and the ways to measure with Penon beforehand.

        • If I were Industrial Heat I would not have agreed to what Rossi wanted and insisted on professional testing.

  • Mylan

    I find document 238-02 Exhibit 44 rather disturbing. Darden suggest measurements being also done by a big company like TÜV. Rossi insists that (only) Penon is qualified and trustworthy.

    Rossi explains that an engineer from TÜV could demand to see particulars that he deems industrial secrets. That is really absurd. If you hire TÜV to do the measurements, why would they see your industrial secrets, if you don’t let them? Just tell them you want to have the energy of the steam measured compared to electricity used and see what they need to do the measurements. If you don’t agree, it is still possible to look for another solution.

    Having measurements done by two engineers independent from each other and both being able to discuss issues in preparation and during measurements would have made any report just sooo much more credible and usefull.

    Reading this I feel Rossi wants to hide something and I don’t understand how IH could ever agree on these conditions.

    • I understand why that might be disturbing, but I think the alternative explanation that Rossi wanted to minimize the size of the inner circle is just as valid.

      There is no indication that Penon is corrupt. He’s a highly educated professional nuclear engineer who is not living the life of a multi-millionaire nor involved in any other shady activity that has been brought to light.

      • Mylan

        I don’t say Penon is corrupt. But in this case, two engineers are a lot better than one. Many of the questions that we are discussing here now may have come up if another engineer would have discussed the situtation and the ways to measure with Penon beforehand.

        • If I were Industrial Heat I would not have agreed to what Rossi wanted and insisted on professional testing.

          • clovis ray

            yep, big but, they did not.

        • clovis ray

          makes no difference, two engineers were not agreed on. only Ponon. only I/H is calming no power was produced, Dr.Rossi said they were to stupid to run it on their own.

    • clovis ray

      HI, Mylan. if you ask a company to evaluate a machine that is a perpetual motion machine.they will laught at you.

  • Engineer48

    My only really big issue is where do the 4 pipes, that rise up the wall and cross the ceiling, go?

    To me that is the money shot. See attached.

    Most of everything else, thanks to the Smith images, has fallen into place and I see no reason the 32,000 L/Day can not be achieved, there is ample pump head to achieve the needed 2.6 mtr condensate head and the flow meter was at the lowest point in the condensate circulation system, so it was always full of water, well maybe not during maintenance or breakdowns.

    With the measured 0.0 barg steam pressure, the +103C measured superheated steam would be sucked into the heat exchanger by the lower pressure created by the condensation and the Grundfos pump so the 0.0 barg ECat outlet pressure is NOT the show stopper some claim it to be.

    However the images can not show us the COP. For that we need the flow meter data, the steam pressure data, the steam temperature data and the electrical kWh consumption. Now that we know the flow meter placement and that it should always be filled with water, we should be able to move past the claims it produced a higher than reality results from being partly filled.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/54c99c3834d5d3b5492fb1f08d0023218c5f75298bf34233e08f9d5af62d46ae.png

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1c31ea4d5cd97765a5361d5aa17938fd52ee661fea70be9d6b4ba886490cbf9a.png

    • Gerard McEk

      The question is: were these pipes connected to the JM equipment?
      To me it seems they ran into the floor once.

      • Hi all

        In reply to Gerard McEk

        I presume you have not noticed that the level where the pipe were removed is stepped up from the floor into some kind box that runs between the wall and the west end of the JM Black Box.

        Maybe your eyes are obeying your minds confirmation bias and fooling you?

        Kind Regards Walker

      • Engineer48

        HI GM,

        All we can see is what is in these 2 images, which suggest the pipes terminated inside the lower beige box. What they connect to at the other end is unknown.

        However I’m sure Smith did take images of where those pipes ended up. Wonder why he has not shared them?

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/54c99c3834d5d3b5492fb1f08d0023218c5f75298bf34233e08f9d5af62d46ae.png

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1c31ea4d5cd97765a5361d5aa17938fd52ee661fea70be9d6b4ba886490cbf9a.png

        • Gerard McEk

          I agree that the pipes used to end in a beige box between the JM facility and the wall. So what was the purpose? Maybe a dual connection to heat releasing equipment on the roof. I would assume that some big fans were needed for that as well, so we should also see a cable run to the roof, but that may be located elsewhere.

    • Jamie Sibley

      You can see in the pictures of inside the JM container there the heat exchanger is in two sections. The upper section is insulated and takes steam from the e-cat and returns condensate to the e-cat at about mid-height of the container. I believe that the JM heat exchanger is a tube-in-tube co-axial exchanger that transfers heat into water that is in the lower un-insulated pipes. You can see that these pipes go all the way down to the floor and are below the condensate return. These pipes must exit the JM container to send the heat elsewhere. The above picture shows an excellent path for that hot water to be removed from the container and cooled. It look like the missing pipe sections would travel through the beige box and head into the Jm container.

      Secondly, The calculations that show that the 24 metering pumps could not produce enough flow, are wrong. Specifically,, with the arrangement of a shared feedwater riser and vent pipe, any of the 110 or so unpowered e-cat modules could still have their pumps running to provide feed water. The assumption that only the 24 pictured pumps were operating is in error. Unless there is evidence that the water supply to and from the smaller-cat modules were physically disconnected, there is ample opportunity for those pumps to be contributing feed water, even when those modules were unheated.

    • Engineer 48 you seem to be writing a better report that Industrial Heats “Expert” who, after a closer look seems to have overlooked many details. Where is the raw data?

  • Engineer48

    My only really big issue is where do the 4 pipes, that rise up the wall and cross the ceiling, go?

    To me that is the money shot. See attached.

    Most of everything else, thanks to the Smith images, has fallen into place and I see no reason the 32,000 L/Day can not be achieved, there is ample pump head to achieve the needed 2.6 mtr condensate head and the flow meter was at the lowest point in the condensate circulation system, so it was always full of water, well maybe not during maintenance or breakdowns.

    With the measured 0.0 barg steam pressure, the +103C measured superheated steam would be sucked into the heat exchanger by the lower pressure created by the condensation and the Grundfos pump so the 0.0 barg ECat outlet pressure is NOT the show stopper some claim it to be.

    However the images can not show us the COP. For that we need the flow meter data, the steam pressure data, the steam temperature data and the electrical kWh consumption. Now that we know the flow meter placement and that it should always be filled with water, we should be able to move past the claims it produced a higher than reality results from being partly filled.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/54c99c3834d5d3b5492fb1f08d0023218c5f75298bf34233e08f9d5af62d46ae.png

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1c31ea4d5cd97765a5361d5aa17938fd52ee661fea70be9d6b4ba886490cbf9a.png

    • Gerard McEk

      The question is: were these pipes connected to the JM equipment?
      To me it seems they ran into the floor once.

      • Hi all

        In reply to Gerard McEk

        I presume you have not noticed that the level where the pipe were removed is stepped up from the floor into some kind box that runs between the wall and the west end of the JM Black Box.

        Maybe your eyes are obeying your minds confirmation bias and fooling you?

        Kind Regards Walker

      • Engineer48

        HI GM,

        All we can see is what is in these 2 images, which suggest the pipes terminated inside the lower beige box. What they connect to at the other end is unknown.

        However I’m sure Smith did take images of where those pipes ended up. Wonder why he has not shared them?

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/54c99c3834d5d3b5492fb1f08d0023218c5f75298bf34233e08f9d5af62d46ae.png

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1c31ea4d5cd97765a5361d5aa17938fd52ee661fea70be9d6b4ba886490cbf9a.png

        • Gerard McEk

          I agree that the pipes used to end in a beige box between the JM facility and the wall. So what was the purpose? Maybe a dual connection to heat releasing equipment on the roof. I would assume that some big fans were needed for that as well, so we should also see a cable run to the roof, but that may be located elsewhere.

    • Jamie Sibley

      You can see in the pictures of inside the JM container there the heat exchanger is in two sections. The upper section is insulated and takes steam from the e-cat and returns condensate to the e-cat at about mid-height of the container. I believe that the JM heat exchanger is a tube-in-tube co-axial exchanger that transfers heat into water that is in the lower un-insulated pipes. You can see that these pipes go all the way down to the floor and are below the condensate return. These pipes must exit the JM container to send the heat elsewhere. The above picture shows an excellent path for that hot water to be removed from the container and cooled. It look like the missing pipe sections would travel through the beige box and head into the Jm container.

      Secondly, The calculations that show that the 24 metering pumps could not produce enough flow, are wrong. Specifically,, with the arrangement of a shared feedwater riser and vent pipe, any of the 110 or so unpowered e-cat modules could still have their pumps running to provide feed water. The assumption that only the 24 pictured pumps were operating is in error. Unless there is evidence that the water supply to and from the smaller-cat modules were physically disconnected, there is ample opportunity for those pumps to be contributing feed water, even when those modules were unheated.

    • Engineer 48 you seem to be writing a better report that Industrial Heats “Expert” who, after a closer look seems to have overlooked many details. Where is the raw data?

  • Ged

    Well, the point to keep in mind is there may be other places to look for discrepencies, so if this line isn’t yielding anything, then a new line be should followed. Other than a nuke reactor, nothing is going to fill the role of making that much heat with the given evidence and constraints, as to supplement a fake E-cat as postulated by that line of reasoning. But there are other things that could be done instead to make this data, and that is where we head now.

    So the answer to those questions is “no”, unless something exotic was used which would be noteworthy of its own.

    The evidence doesn’t seem to fit with the idea of switching between steam and water, as it isn’t quite that simple (the gauge glass seems fine and not mucky as a submerged reactor would lead to over time). It wouldn’t fool the temperature and pressure sensors, but it would leave the water meter unaffected as you correctly reason. However, even if that were the case, to get the water hot enough to keep the temperature sensor data as we see it will still require a COP much above the contract payout criteria, as we see calculated here http://www.e-catworld.com/2017/04/04/rossi-v-ih-new-pictures-posted-in-exhibit/#comment-3241356947 .

    A combination of minor factors at each stage and measurement place summing together just right would have to be employed, and/or Penon and the rest would have to be in on it to fake it all, at this rate.

    The piping really doesn’t seem to stand out or say anything odd necessarily–not on its own, as it is properly functional from the visual evidence through time; and repairs or mods aren’t unexpected over a year’s time. And if there was a steam flow meter and it was working and reported something odd, IH would have jumped all over that, and they haven’t, so that isn’t an issue it seems.

    The biggest issue right now is where did the heat exchanger go. Venting through the roof would have been easy and more than sufficient, but instead it was a second story window we don’t yet see evidence for? That is frankly bizarre. Doable, sure, but bizarre and lacking any support so far.

    So, really, it seems one is left with either it works or everyone is in on the fraud, at this point. All the reveals so far have bolstered Rossi’s case rather than hurt him (despite attempted spin by IH), except the heat exchanger–so that seems to be a good target to analyze and see if it works out or begins unraveling everything.

    Also, supposedly the manufacturers of the sensors calibrated them before and after the run, so evidence about that would help analyze if Penon gamed the sensors or not.

    But, to wrap up in summary, there isn’t a way to provide a second source of heat at this magnitude within evidence constraints beyond a nuclear reactor, and even then I don’t know of any small enough to fit in that space with all the associated radiation safety equipment except for LENR based ones. The plumbing and materials we see so far are capable of running the test successfully. The weakness for Rossi’s case mainly right now is in the sensors, and most of all in the exchanger. Is there more we can see there?

  • 245-27 is a brutal example of Rossi intentionally deceiving IH regarding JMP being a separate, and de facto validating, entity.

    • clovis ray

      They I/H were susposed to produce the customer but could not do so Dr Rossi produced JMP and i/h agreed to them , the coustomer will have little to do with this case, it not about them, it about I/H trying to weasle out of their deal, and was filed on for non payment and BOC. can arguee with that, you have to pay to play, this is a big boy game. and it belongs to Dr Rossi, untill the court decides,

  • Gordon Spicer

    based on all this discussion, it’s pretty clear that the evaluation process could have been alot better managed.

    i would still offer rossi $10m for a working prototype. come bite me Rossi?

    • clovis ray

      Oh, no no no, thats just silly, your kidding right, 10 mill ha, ha that would be an insult, try 10 trillion.

  • Gerard McEk

    I think this all is about if Penon is trustworthy or not.
    If Penon cannot be heard under oath, the judge may decide another test of the plant and then checked by an independent (industrial?) entity appointed by the judge.

    • radvar

      I missed it…why might Penon not be available? Because he is in Europe?

      • Gerard McEk

        I believe I read it somewhere quite a while ago, but I can’t recall where. We have to wait and see.

      • wpj

        Dominican Republic- which is where he gave his deposition. Seems to be a major power project out there which he is working on (supposedly)

    • BillH

      I believe the final report was written while he was in Italy. But I’m pretty sure he gave a subsequent deposition from the Dominican Republic. Keep reading…

    • clovis ray

      It not about penon trustworthyness , he was agreed upon by both partys.
      they I/H had people on site all the timeand could have stopped the test anythime,but did not. I dought there will be a new test who would conduct such a test, and who would pay such a huge sum for one. been there done that, no, there is just too much evidence against Darden and his den theaves.

  • Gerard McEk

    I think this all is about if Penon is trustworthy or not.
    If Penon cannot be heard under oath, the judge may decide another test of the plant and then checked by an independent (industrial?) entity appointed by the judge.

    • BillH

      I believe the final report was written while he was in Italy. But I’m pretty sure he gave a subsequent deposition from the Dominican Republic. Keep reading…

    • clovis ray

      It not about penon trustworthyness , he was agreed upon by both partys.
      they I/H had people on site all the timeand could have stopped the test anythime,but did not. I dought there will be a new test who would conduct such a test, and who would pay such a huge sum for one. been there done that, no, there is just too much evidence against Darden and his den theaves.

  • Obvious

    Edit: I meant a different pic…
    also not sure I have a clear sight glass one.

    Before: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8ce4790264d4a5ae8faebb3ded9f0e5d99db244764fd3560a56d43de1f9dc2f0.jpg

  • GiveADogABone

    Could you give me and E48 the references to the documents that inform your beliefs stated in paragraph one? I would be happy to take a look.

  • Toulmin

    To me its becoming clear by e-mail communication that Rossi was not telling the whole truth to Darden about JM as evident in this quote from Andrea when Darden asked him about how things are going…”The director of JM had told me they measure the COP reading their wattmeter for what concerns the electricity consumed, while the thermal energy is measure intrinsecally by the fact that they get their production in full, but they also have thermometers and flowmeter. I do not know know the particulars and I want not to ask about them.”

    It is also quite obvious that Rossi is talking to himself on the JONP blog via different aliases. Is it possible that he has some kind of identity disorder? Split personality? Seriously!

    • doug marker

      The only question that matters is does the eCat work. This trial is unlikely to settle that but a win to Rossi by the jury on who met their contractual obligations (what this trial is there to determine) would strengthen his position greatly even though it does not answer the science question.

      Rossi can wear bunny ears, dress in pink suits and tell all the tall stories he likes if it turns out that such a hypothetical and eccentric person invented a working LiH reactor device.

      Bottom line is ! – do these eCats work (i.e. deliver useful over unity output). All other matters are personal biases/opinions one way or the other.

      D

      • Dr. Mike

        Doug,
        The problem is that once the jury determines that Rossi was not telling the truth about who the director of JM really was, they will not believe any of his scientific testimony and perhaps those associated with him. He really needs to get some expert testimony to explain why Smith’s arguments are invalid. There is a possibility that a win by IH could make it so Rossi had no funds left to continue work on LENR.

        Dr. Mike

        • doug marker

          Dr Mike,
          I don’t believe one incorrect statement is going to alter the jury’s total assessment of all the evidence.

          But, I (like anyone else) can’t predict or speak for, the jury.

          Cheers Doug

          • clovis ray

            it so simple, I/H tryed to steal his I/P And got caught red handed, end of story.

        • clovis ray

          Not hardly, smith is incompent and is applaying his alturnitive facts. lol.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Doug,

        Correct.

        And one way to determine that is to investigate the 1MW ECat plant engineering via all the available images. So far I have yet to see anything that says the plant was not capable of doing the designed job.

        We also now know that all the talk about partly filled flow meters was not correct as the flow meter was at the bottom of a 2.5 mtr high head of condensate.

        Which says the flow meter data is probably correct and if the 0.0barg steam pressure and +103C steam temperature are also correct, the plant did generate 1MW of thermal heat from very little electrical input.

        Inconvenient truths for some. Hard photographic evidence for others.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5e7a9cea8b552574d350909d178b89015e9ddfe4de823af0617bf9afedef64a8.png

        • doug marker

          Engineer48,
          Thanks for all of your very helpful analysis. From my own perspective (past engineering background) you are conveying what comes across as honest and insightful interpretations.

          And as has to be plainly obvious, IH’s Mr Smith is unlikely to be doing so nor is he motivated to offer an impartial analysis.

          Thanks

          Doug

          • Engineer48

            Hi Doug,

            What I’m pleased to present is the new data on the Red Grundfos pump in the JM Black Box being capable and responsible to support a 2.5 mtr high head of condensate inside the ECat container.

            This helps to explain the condensate flow system and as a bonus shows the flow meter had to be always be, when the plant was operating, at the bottom of the 2.5 mtr condensate head. So the flow meter data is probably correct, which then implies the 1MW output data is correct. Which is why, I suspect, others spent so much time and effort stating the flow meter was not full of water and did not correctly report the flow rate.

            Well they can stop spinning that story cause it is not correct. Sure there may be rust stains on the flow meter vanes but they occurred when the system was drained and did not occur when the system was operating.

            Time will tell if those spinning that story retract their flow meter statements or continue to make flow meter statement that have now been shown to be incorrect.

            Additionally Smith’s flow analysis is faulty as he assumed the only flow into the Tigers was from the topping up pumps and that they had a max flow of 32 L/Hr when at 0barg back pressure they have more like a MIN flow of 40 L/Hr.

          • GiveADogABone

            Grundfos pump only used at startup

            207-48 : James Bass
            22 A. When they first started the system if
            23 they opened up the system, they would run it
            24 initially through the box and then once they were
            25 convinced — it was up to Dr. Rossi when to divert it
            1 around the box.
            2 Q. So there is — again, I’m not an engineer
            3 so I apologize if I’m going to be asking some
            4 questions poorly.
            5 So when the system would be started up —
            6 and when you say system, do you mean like the E-Cat
            7 reactors?
            8 A. E-Cat, yes.
            9 Q. So when the E-Cat reactors would start
            10 up, at least initially all of the water that was
            11 flowing through this system would be redirected into
            12 this box?
            13 A. Correct.
            14 Q. The filter box?
            15 A. Correct.
            16 Q. Then at some point a valve would be
            17 turned so that the water no longer had to go into
            18 this filter box?
            19 A. Yes.

        • Bruce__H

          Hi Engineer,

          Could you please sketch into your flow schematic the water reservoir that sits outside the red ecat box and is connected to the condensate return reservoir? According to Penon and West it feeds the condensate return tank by gravity and that feed is governed by a “floating valve”.

          I’d appreciate if you could do this for me because I just don’t see how you think that part of the system works.

  • Hi all

    In reply to Bruce__H

    The condensate pipe is clearly going over the top of the steam pipe. If it was going into it it would do so at the point where it reaches the same height. Instead it goes above the thickness of the insulation takes a vertical to horizontal bend above the insulation and crosses it at a 45 degree horizontal angle to reach the back wall where all the input and output pipes in any industrial system run above head height so as not to be in the way of human beings who could bump into or trip over pipes that ran lower and to keep things tidy and in a standard place.

    Piping water, gas, steam and electrics are all supposed to run:

    Vertically straight up or down from their junctions/access points, or when travelling between floors within 1 foot of an internal corner

    Horizontally either within a foot of the ceiling along a wall or below the floor or in-between floors in multi story buildings.

    Any other configuration would be unusual and probably dangerous as a result.

    Kind Regards walker

  • Gordon Spicer

    if i was the judge, i would just force both parties to get to the bottom of it under the judge’s direction…and if rossi wins, he gets the big payout, if not, he goes to jail for fraud.

    multi-party independent validation ordered by the court.

    it’s called a burning platform boys and girls.

    and if rossi wins, we all win.

    • doug marker

      This is a trial by jury !.

      The jury is being tasked with deciding who met their contractual obligations and who didn’t. The Judge is not in a position to order a re-test – he has no jurisdiction to do so. Only AR & IH can do that.

      D

      • doug marker

        The only question that matters is does the eCat work. This trial is unlikely to settle that but a win to Rossi by the jury on who met their contractual obligations (what this trial is there to determine) would strengthen his position greatly even though it does not answer the science question.

        Rossi can wear bunny ears, dress in pink suits and tell all the tall stories he likes if it turns out that such a hypothetical eccentric person invented a working device.

        Bottom line is ! – do these eCats work (i.e. deliver useful over unity output). All other matters are personal biases one way or the other.

        D

        • Dr. Mike

          Doug,
          The problem is that once the jury determines that Rossi was not telling the truth about who the director of JM really was, they will not believe any of his scientific testimony and perhaps those associated with him. He really needs to get some expert testimony to explain why Smith’s arguments are invalid. There is a possibility that a win by IH could make it so Rossi had no funds left to continue work on LENR.

          Dr. Mike

          • doug marker

            I don’t believe one incorrect statement is going to alter the jury’s total assessment of all the evidence.

            But, I (like anyone else) can’t predict or speak for, the jury.

            Cheers Doug

          • clovis ray

            Not hardly, smith is incompent and is applaying his alturnitive facts. lol.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Doug,

          Correct.

          And one way to determine that is to investigate the 1MW ECat plant engineering via all the available images. So far I have yet to see anything that says the plant was not capable of doing the designed job.

          We also now know that all the talk about partly filled flow meters was not correct as the flow meter was at the bottom of a 2.5 mtr high head of condensate.

          Which says the flow meter data is probably correct and if the 0.0barg steam pressure and +103C steam temperature are also correct, the plant did generate 1MW of thermal heat from very little electrical input.

          Inconvenient truths for some. Hard photographic evidence for others.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5e7a9cea8b552574d350909d178b89015e9ddfe4de823af0617bf9afedef64a8.png

          • doug marker

            Engineer48,
            Thanks for all of your very helpful analysis. From my own perspective (past engineering background) you are conveying what comes across as honest and insightful interpretations.

            And as has to be plainly obvious, IH’s Mr Smith is unlikely to be doing so nor is he motivated to offer an impartial analysis.

            Thanks

            Doug

          • Engineer48

            Hi Doug,

            What I’m pleased to present is the new data on the Red Grundfos pump in the JM Black Box being capable and responsible to support a 2.5 mtr high head of condensate inside the ECat container.

            This helps to explain the condensate flow system and as a bonus shows the flow meter had to be always be, when the plant was operating, at the bottom of the 2.5 mtr condensate head. So the flow meter data is probably correct, which then implies the 1MW output data is correct. Which is why, I suspect, others spent so much time and effort stating the flow meter was not full of water and did not correctly report the flow rate.

            Well they can stop spinning that story cause it is not correct. Sure there may be rust stains on the flow meter vanes but they occurred when the system was drained and did not occur when the system was operating.

            Time will tell if those spinning that story retract their flow meter statements or continue to make flow meter statement that have now been shown to be incorrect.

            Additionally Smith’s flow analysis is faulty as he assumed the only flow into the Tigers was from the topping up pumps and that they had a max flow of 32 L/Hr when at 0barg back pressure they have more like a MIN flow of 40 L/Hr.

          • GiveADogABone

            Grundfos pump only used at startup

            207-48 : James Bass
            22 A. When they first started the system if
            23 they opened up the system, they would run it
            24 initially through the box and then once they were
            25 convinced — it was up to Dr. Rossi when to divert it
            1 around the box.
            2 Q. So there is — again, I’m not an engineer
            3 so I apologize if I’m going to be asking some
            4 questions poorly.
            5 So when the system would be started up —
            6 and when you say system, do you mean like the E-Cat
            7 reactors?
            8 A. E-Cat, yes.
            9 Q. So when the E-Cat reactors would start
            10 up, at least initially all of the water that was
            11 flowing through this system would be redirected into
            12 this box?
            13 A. Correct.
            14 Q. The filter box?
            15 A. Correct.
            16 Q. Then at some point a valve would be
            17 turned so that the water no longer had to go into
            18 this filter box?
            19 A. Yes.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I hope the jury will not get overtaxed by the technical issues:

        Q: You have noticed that E-Cat reactors were not completely filled with water. What would you expect to see after having driven your car on a sunny day, with a half-full cooling system?

        A: Maybe…a warning light?

        • doug marker

          Andrea’s,

          It isn’t a jury I’d want to be on 🙂

          Cheers
          Doug

          • clovis ray

            IT WILL BE A SLAM DUNK for Dr.ROSSI

          • GiveADogABone

            1: Why is it steam about the meniscus in the sight glass?
            What are all the possibilities? Steam, air, vacuum, something else
            Air: As long as it is at the same pressure as the steam and the water level was correct, it would not matter but there is no source for air in a boiler that is above atmospheric pressure; it makes steam and diffusion being what it is the air would dilute over time. A sub-atmospheric boiler could exist and have an air leak, I suppose.
            Vacuum: The water would shoot straight out of the top of the glass and the boiler itself would be doing dangerous things
            Steam: The right answer
            Something else: any suggestions? One thing it might be is a blockage and that is dangerous as it leads to false levels. Gauge glasses are supposed to be blown down regularly to prove they are clear.

            2: Is it superheated steam?
            Not necessarily or even usually. The steam in the gauge glass slowly loses heat and condenses. That just pushes a matching amount of water out of the bottom leg and all is well. If you shut the bottom isolator, the gauge glass gradually fills.

            3: If it is superheated steam then how can superheated steam and water coexist in the sight glass?
            See above

            4: What if the valve at the top of the sight glass was closed so as to trap a bubble of air.
            Very dangerous. It would render the gauge glass useless.

            5: Would that provide the appearance of a working sight glass?
            On a working boiler the water level moves in response to turbulence in the boiler. An boiler operator will know the normal pattern. A completely static level would cause concern and a gauge glass blowdown would be needed.

        • Observer

          That is why Rossi does not need a separate heater to super heat the steam: Half of the heating element is above the water, operating at temperatures above the boiling point and half the heating element is below the water operating at the boiling point.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Yes. The question is how to explain such things to a jury that consists mainly, or solely, of ‘non-technical’ people.

          • GiveADogABone

            The engineering principle involved is that of the once-through boiler. You pump water in one end of the tube and superheated steam comes out of the other. The tube is something like uniformly heated along its full length.

            There are three zones inside the tube;
            heating water to boiling point,
            then evaporating starting at 100% water and ending with 0%,
            then superheating.

            The boiler can be just one tube and the tubes are small bore and long e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotube_steam_generator

          • Andreas Moraitis

            That’s obvious. What I said is that the jury probably won’t understand everything.

          • Observer

            If they are “non-technical” they will not understand the issue of creating super heated steam with a totally submerged heat source.

  • Gordon Spicer

    if i was the judge, i would just force both parties to get to the bottom of it under the judge’s direction…and if rossi wins, he gets the big payout, if not, he goes to jail for fraud.

    multi-party independent validation ordered by the court.

    it’s called a burning platform boys and girls.

    and if rossi wins, we all win.

    • doug marker

      This is a trial by jury !.

      The jury is being tasked with deciding who met their contractual obligations and who didn’t. The Judge is not in a position to order a re-test – he has no jurisdiction to do so. Only AR & IH can do that. I doubt he could or would even recommend they have another go, why ?, he is presiding over a civil trial not the future of energy.

      So, in reality the judge is not looking at this matter through the eyes of a LENR supporter/skeptic, only through the eyes of a judge assembling permissible evidence that he will allow to be placed before the jury. His role is about law, not science.

      D

      • Gordon Spicer

        i understand everything you are saying, doug.
        but i have no doubt that any judge has methods to apply heat to situations, and in this case, there is no way to understand if or how the contractual obligations were met, with out multiple third party evaluations. what happened in the past, under all this documentation, is too much of a mess for any judge to make an accurate decision. so again, if i was the judge, in order to substantiate my decision, i would create requirements and solve the issue, to justify who gets paid or thrown in jail for fraud.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I hope the jury will not get overtaxed by the technical issues:

        Q: You have noticed that E-Cat reactors were not completely filled with water. What would you expect to see after having driven your car on a sunny day, with a half-full cooling system?

        A: Maybe…a warning light?

        • doug marker

          Andreas

          It isn’t a jury I’d want to be on 🙂

          Cheers
          Doug

          • clovis ray

            I think the good doctor will prevail.

        • Observer

          That is why Rossi does not need a separate heater to super heat the steam: Half of the heating element is above the water, operating at temperatures above the boiling point and half the heating element is below the water operating at the boiling point.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Yes. The question is how to explain such things to a jury that consists mainly, or solely, of ‘non-technical’ people.

          • GiveADogABone

            The engineering principle involved is that of the once-through boiler. You pump water in one end of the tube and superheated steam comes out of the other. The tube is something like uniformly heated along its full length.

            There are three zones inside the tube;
            heating water to boiling point,
            then evaporating starting at 100% water and ending with 0%,
            then superheating.
            The boundaries are not fixed points. They move as the thermodynamics dictate.

            The boiler can be just one tube and the tubes are small bore and long e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotube_steam_generator

            In the case of the E-cat, the tube stands upright and is flattened and becomes the gap between the fins. Water in at the bottom, superheated steam out of the top with a boiling zone in the middle.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            That’s obvious. What I said is that the jury probably won’t understand everything.

  • CWatters

    Its interesting that on a day when there was a power cut the ecat still drew power from the grid somehow.

    • That’s the reason why Jed Rothwell (and many more) is sure the data is made up.
      Even the electricity bill confirms a power down while the ERV data says the plant ran at normal power with normal electricity consumption.

      This fact combined with the fact that Rossi himself took the numbers and just forwarded them to Penon, who visited the plant only 4 times, should make one very careful in this matter!

      The whole GPT is full of crudities on Rossi’s side. He had a business partner which was prepared to pay him a lot of money. Rossi only had to show real results and make replications possible. He never did. He even lied a lot.

      Think it over.

      I can’t understand how so many people still have full trust in Rossi with all his shady behaviour and still whitewash every evidence against him, may it be ever so devastating…

      • Andreas Moraitis

        According to Smith (ironically, “Rossi” means the same in Italian) the power outage happend on 04-07-2015 (235-10, p. 13). But the data from FPL does not seem to indicate a lower consumption at that time (236-47, p. 44). Looks as if they had an extra line installed that was not affected.

        • Interesting point, since this is a major and intriguing piece of circumstantial evidence from Defendants. Could we get any info on an extra line?

          BTW: ‘Smith’ is sometimes translated with ‘Rossi’ in Italian, by Google e.g., not because it means the same, but because those names represent a typical person in their country. Like ‘Dupont’ in France, and ‘Svensson’ in Sweden.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terms_related_to_an_average_person

          • Andreas Moraitis

            You are correct. I should better have said that these terms are used in a similar way. Nonetheless, Wittgenstein taught us that meaning is determined by usage…;-)

          • GiveADogABone

            What evidence supports Rick Smith’s statement in 235-10 that ‘On 07 Apr 2015, there was a day long power interruption.’.

            If it was a planned outage, then a generator could have been installed and used for the duration. If Rossi kept a generator at Doral, then a short break before re-energisation, even if unplanned?

            As a side issue, Mr Smith raises the issue of energy output discrepancies in this section. His comments reflect his failure to understand that the ERV report discarded the enthalpy rise of the water and applied a 0.9 factor to the enthalpy rise of the steam.

            Going by Rick Smith’s track record, I would not get very exercised by this.

          • And I still wonder if it’s a ‘failure to understand’ or an unwillingness to understand or even a premeditated choice to not consider certain information. On someone’s request or not.

          • GiveADogABone

            I think Rick Smith and Joe Murray are pushing the boundaries of the definition of ‘expert’, which is good because it makes the jury’s job easier. The more junk we can find in their depositions, the better.

            Recent work has sorted the boiler gauge glass issue; its steam above the meniscus in the glass and therefore in the steam pipes. Also, there is no doubt in my mind the flowmeter operates flooded and properly. Murray stated in his deposition that he had no evidence of manipulation of the power data. That sorts all the variables in the CoP equation.

          • Bruce__H

            I may have missed something. Why is it steam above the meniscus in the sight glass? Do you mean superheated steam? If it is superheated steam then how can superheated steam and water coexist in the sight glass?

            What if the valve at the top of the sight glass was closed so as to trap a bubble of air. Would that provide the appearance of a working sight glass?

          • GiveADogABone

            1: Why is it steam about the meniscus in the sight glass?
            What are all the possibilities? Steam, air, vacuum, something else
            Air: As long as it is at the same pressure as the steam and the water level was correct, it would not matter but there is no source for air in a boiler that is above atmospheric pressure; it makes steam and diffusion being what it is the air would dilute over time. A sub-atmospheric boiler could exist and have an air leak, I suppose.
            Vacuum: The water would shoot straight out of the top of the glass and the boiler itself would be doing dangerous things
            Steam: The right answer
            Something else: any suggestions? One thing it might be is a blockage and that is dangerous as it leads to false levels. Gauge glasses are supposed to be blown down regularly to prove they are clear.

            2: Is it superheated steam?
            Not necessarily or even usually. The steam in the gauge glass slowly loses heat and condenses. That just pushes a matching amount of water out of the bottom leg and all is well. If you shut the bottom isolator, the gauge glass gradually fills.

            3: If it is superheated steam then how can superheated steam and water coexist in the sight glass?
            See above

            4: What if the valve at the top of the sight glass was closed so as to trap a bubble of air.
            Very dangerous. It would render the gauge glass useless.

            5: Would that provide the appearance of a working sight glass?
            On a working boiler the water level moves in response to turbulence in the boiler. An boiler operator will know the normal pattern. A completely static level would cause concern and a gauge glass blowdown would be needed.

          • Bruce__H

            Why would a low water level be dangerous in this boiler? This is not a high-pressure boiler — the output is supposed to be 0 barg. And everyone is saying that the heating element is supposed to run half uncovered anyway.
            If the water boiled away wouldn’t you just get the same situation as in the Lugano experiment with the things sitting in there heating the air around it?

            I think the level of the meniscus would still move due to turbulence caused by boiling. But I don’t think there was ever anyone around the setup familiar enough with boiler operation to detect subtle differences from how the thing was supposed to look. Can you think of anyone except Rossi?

          • I think it’s just confirmation bias at work and we all must guard against it — plus a tinge of knowing which team you’re on… for the few that actually have a financial interest in how this plays out.

          • Sure it’s possible to have a generator running.

            But if you conduct a test with $89 Mio on stake (!!!), you must document each little unscheduled incident! You must! Especially such electrical energy issues in this special case of test!
            That’s obvious for everyone, except Rossi it seems.

          • GiveADogABone

            I take that to mean that you accept the numbers and graphs could and probably were right.

          • I hope they (the ERV numbers) are right.

            But I lose confidence day by day.
            There are too many inconsistencies. The straw men, the removed/destroyed evidence after the test and so on…

          • GiveADogABone

            Recent work has sorted the boiler gauge glass issue; its steam above the meniscus in the glass and therefore in the steam pipes. Also, there is no doubt in my mind the flowmeter operates flooded and properly. Murray stated in his deposition that he had no evidence of manipulation of the power data. That sorts all the variables in the CoP equation.

            Why are you losing confidence?
            The ERV report is starting to look bullet-proof.

          • Why are you losing confidence?

            It’s simply the overall picture of the story.

            Why on earth should someone do such a fuss as Rossi did, only to demonstrate an energy producing device?

            There are so many points of which each one easily can be downplayed individually. But all together they smell to high heaven.

            I want to believe, but I can’t anymore.

          • GiveADogABone

            You are missing the big question.
            Does it work?
            The ERV report says the numbers say yes and IH have yet to prove them wrong.

          • True, somewhere at the bottom of the suit is the question of whether it works or not.

            But again the question: Why on earth should someone do such a fuss like Rossi did, if his device works?
            His behavior is simply abnormal in his situation. If his device works it would be absolutely simple to prove that. But Rossi does not allow such bullet-proof measurements.

            For e.g. Darden suggested (as can be seen in the exhibits) to use totally independent TÜV experts to make the measurements, but Rossi was adamant to use Penon.

            Here the question arises: Why?
            Sure, you can again argue with the good old IP secrets etc.

            But in my opinion this argument is stale and can not be applied here, because there is no need for the measurement personal to know the interiors of the black-box (the ecat). These guys simply have to measure power in vs. power out and calculate COP. So the IP is not in danger. Of course these people would ask some questions about it, but Rossi knows well how to say “I can not answer”.

            At the end you have to admit that the ground on which the ERV is based is extremely wobbly in all his details.

          • But Rossi does not allow such measurements.

            He allowed a team of scientists to test the reactor at length without his involvement for most of the experiment… twice!

            His behavior is simply abnormal in his situation.

            Agreed but that cuts both ways. How about starting legal proceedings when you’re the scammer? How about not taking financial independence money and calling it a day? How about living overnight in a warehouse for a year?

            …Rossi was adamant to use Penon.

            He’s very direct about this in his communications with Darden. The circle must be kept small or they risk all sorts of complications. Sure it looks suspicious when imagining conspiracies everywhere like IH currently is alleging. But it has a much simpler explanation: industrial secrecy.

          • That’s what I meant with “there are too many inconsistencies”.

            On the one hand it looks like Rossi is the victim, but on the other hand it’s no wonder that IH doesn’t want to pay the $89M.

            There would have been so many ways to make this test bullet-proof (e.g. using the TÜV), but Rossi (intentionally?) brought many factors into this test concept, which either opened loopholes or caused observers to perceive deception.

          • As I’ve stated previously, I don’t think this is about the $89M and I don’t think Rossi has much of a chance to win the lawsuit completely (but with juries always some chance).

            I think he is attempting to void the contract such that his QuarkX IP is free and clear. It’s the scenario that best fits the facts and circumstantial evidence for me.

          • Observer

            Does anyone have a map of IH incorporated entities; which one(s) are liable for the $89M, and which ones have rights to Rossi’s IP and which ones have the rights to IP they have acquired from others?

          • clovis ray

            ha, ha, ha ha .ridiculos

          • Thank you for this useful contribution.

          • I think this is the point in Rossi’s way of acting (apart from that he’s a typical inventor, and as such has some difficulty to let other people deal with your invention):

            Let’s assume he has a working technology. Yet, in this little circle of people involved he can see a tremendous resistance, since the technology is a threat towards so many established structures in finance, industry and politics. It’s then easy to conclude that the more people involved, particularly people that you don’t know at all, the higher the risk for non proportional resistance, potentially impossible to defend yourself from.

            My point is: It’s easy to propose a simple and elegant conclusive bulletproof third party confirmation of the technology (‘why doesn’t he just do it??’) but in the real world it might be much more difficult, not for technical difficulties, but for the people involved.

          • Toulmin

            Mats, I think you have a valid point in the problems involved in testing. But how do you regard the JMC part of the story. That must be interpreted as fraud like behavior even if you think that the E-cat technology is real? Or how do you see it?

          • That’s kind of understandable.

            But for example why didn’t Rossi give the Uppsalla professors some hints to allow a working non-competitive (COP ~ 2, maybe with an non-optimized recipe he had in his early days) but reliable and stable scientific replication?
            They would have been able to publish peer reviewed papers and spread the knowledge to break the wall.

            In the meanwhile Rossi could have been able to produce the COP > 20 version and sell it.

          • Hi all

            In reply to barty

            You are ignoring that Rossi was in such an Non Disclosure Agreement bind from IH that the only way the Penon report was disclosed to the public was by the force of it being required by the courts as evidence in a court case that Rossi had to initiate.

            Kind Regards walker

          • Hi Ian,

            how is this related to the bogus that was done to produce the numbers of the “Penon report”?

            This label (“Penon report”) by itself is laughable, if you consider that Penon didn’t do the measurements and he was only a few times at Doral.

          • He did a lot of demos. He allowed a lot of testing. None of it was ever good enough.

            So he bit the bullet and turned over the reactor to scientists to test. The first Levi paper results. No good, not independent enough. Fine, he gives the reactor to the same team (more or less) in Lugano and lets them do whatever with it for months. How can that not be good enough? It was a big risk (industrial espionage is a thing). Still, apparently… not good enough, perhaps due to mistakes made by the professors — not his fault!

            After that one he said he’s done with demos and 3rd party tests. Commercialization was the only way. That’s how he’s been behaving since Lugano and I can’t say I blame him one bit.

          • clovis ray

            i can’t figure out what it is your looking at, it sure as heck can’t be the e cat. Barty
            you don’t even make good scence.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    What I see is an evolving control system where initially all 4 Tigers received raw condensate flow plus the topping up pump flow. (Stage 1)

    Then the lowest Tiger was run just from the topping up flow. (Stage 2)

    Then later the 3 lower Tigers were run just from their topping up pump flow. (Stage 3)

    I suggest this happened as they learned to increase the COP from the Top Tiger and could run reduced water flow rates in the lower Tiger, lower flow rates that they could now accurately control as the only inflow happened when the topping up pumps where running and not have a compounding factor of the condensate head height maintained by the Red Grundfos condensate return flow pump in the JM Black Box.

    Plus I expect the negative back pressure on the lowest Tiger pumps and very low back pressures on the 2 other Tigers enabled the topping up pumps to deliver in excess of 40 L/Day.

    Stage 1:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e44be26d32d975de1ff5285752e5a9178ab5cbbe66d2fcb4a9bfb5aa1b859812.png

    Stage 2:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/20704cea3fdf44865e387bdcbeda407bae669e5746a804f23fa7d7b26d3df0fa.png

    Stage 3:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/af6a989f206b9de12fcf0932e207ab37a8662725bfac47cf7d7ee3519a7d88d9.png

  • Engineer48

    Just a guess but I suspect the condensate flows through the 4 Tigers as under the Stage 3 flow & control system might be something like this:

    Tiger 4: 246 L/Hr from the 6 topping up pumps and 313 L/Day from the raw condensate flow.

    Tiger 3: 252 L/Hr from just the 6 topping up pumps

    Tiger 2: 258 L/Hr from just the 6 topping up pumps

    Tiger 1: 264 L/Hr from just the 6 topping up pumps

    Total hourly volume of 1,333 L/Hr and daily volume of 32,000 L/Day.

    The lower Tigers have a little more topping up pump flow due to higher condensate head pressure on their inlets, which reduces as the Tiger installation height increases.

    Stage 3 condensate flow and control system:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/af6a989f206b9de12fcf0932e207ab37a8662725bfac47cf7d7ee3519a7d88d9.png

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Regarding the “raw” condensate – if the water level in the ‘serpentine’ was high enough, the pressure might have been sufficient to feed at least the lower reactor units without much pumping. That way one could possibly go without the ‘red pump’, at least for a while. Bass says in his deposition that the filter box (I guess he means the one below the red pump) was only used when the plant started up, and has later been bypassed (see 207-48, p. 44f., PDF p. 7). If that was the case it would seem that the assistance of the red pump was not always available.

      • Engineer48

        Hi AM,

        The BlueCats have dual raw condensate supply pipes above their horizontal top steam pipes, plus the ALL the Tigers initially needed raw condensate that had an approx 2.5 mtr head.

        So sorry Murphy & Smith but the condensate supply system needs the Red Grundfos pump operating to achieve a 2.5 mtr condensate head above the flow meter and bottom of the ECat container.

        Statements from both Murphy & Smith suggest they never studied or understoid the condensate supply system nor understood the need for a 2.5 mtr condensate head inside the ECat container to supply both the Tigers and the Blue Ecat.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I agree that “water column” is the keyword. The energy to create this column might have come mainly from the E-Cats, since they enabled raising the (evaporated) water above a certain level.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Changing “mainly” to “partly”. I think this possibility has not yet been mentioned.

          • Engineer48

            Hi AM,

            The condensate head height in the ECat container needs to be higher than the condensate discharge height from the JM Black Box for both 1MW reactors to operate properly.

            The energy to do that extra condensate lift comes from the Red Grundfos condensate circulation pump.

      • GiveADogABone

        Nobody seems to have sketched in the heat exchanger in the second floor room. It needs a steam supply and a condensate return. The head height in the condensate return could be above the level of the mezzanine floor. I am thinking that the condensate return is the big shiny pipe with a substantial sloped section after the vertical drop. With that head available there is no need to run a pump; the condensate pumps itself using gravity.

        The Grundfos pump is a single point of failure. It stops working and the test stops AND so does the SSM cooling. Think electrical supply failure. The E-cat needs water after the electricity goes off. The pump is a startup and flushing pump.

        The condensate is at boiling point at the pressure in the second floor heat exchanger at the water level in the return pipe; somewhat less than 100C and atmospheric pressure. the unlagged pipe in the black box is the sub-cooling heat exchanger to get the water temperature down to 70C from, say 90C.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I would expect that the 2nd floor heat exchanger (if there was any) was decoupled from the primary loop. The medium was probably air. The vertical pipes on the wall do not look as if they were suitable for liquid water or steam. Wet air from a drying process might be a possibility, though.

          • GiveADogABone

            Why do the pipes seem unsuitable? The vertical pipes are metal, so 100C and no internal pressure is fine.

            I think the four vertical pipes are made of the same material as the 2nd floor Ht Ex and indeed are part of the heat exchanger. They dump their heat into the main warehouse space under the big room fan, so it is extracted quickly and never reaches ground level.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Without internal pressure, yes. But pumping water into the second floor would not work that way. These pipes resemble rather downspouts for gutters. However, it might be possible to use them for moving water upwards if they are carefully soldered or welded together.

          • Engineer48

            Hi AM,

            The 4 pipes appear to be 150mm in diameter, with a black outer covering and insulated internal pipes.

            Please note they cross the roof.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/404eb624d27f57708b686badba8fc3c3db0b380d852a2ed81b99a469bb6ca449.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cb650bdf4bcda7e79541c36db406273c7a9dd003f4fa30ca7553a42b227bd234.png

            According to Rossi’s statements in 235-8, between the image 11 and image 12 there was a system of pipes and valves that controlled what went up the pipes and into the secondary heat exchanger.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/936dc27c3c72e04d6cfb688f31bf0a477768044a6c70b58a0edebfe57cb85bbc.png

            I suggest the existence of these 4 pipes does support the Rossi statements about the pipes and valves between images 11 and 12 and the upper story secondary heat exchanger.

            Would like to know where the pipes went and have a photo of what existed between images 11 and 12. Maybe one day.

          • GiveADogABone

            235-8 : Rossi deposes on the blackbox pipework and the 2nd floor ht ex

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Difficult to interpret. I guess AR might have misunderstood the question about the heat exchanger, since the outlet of the ‘black box’ appears to be directly connected to the inlet of the plant. But actually, we don’t know.

          • GiveADogABone

            My version :
            The condensate outlet of the black box goes to the condensate inlet of the E-cat. The steam outlet of the black box goes to the 2nd floor heat exchanger and the condensate outlet of the 2nd floor ht ex goes to the condensate inlet of the black box.

          • clovis ray

            Oh, no no no, thats just silly, your kidding right, 10 mill ha, ha that would be an insult, try 10 trillion.

          • doug marker

            This trial is boiling down to one side’s version of the calorimetry vs the other’s

            The jury would all need to be engineers to be able to follow the intricacies. We only have to look at the diversity of opinions from ‘experts’ here and at LENR forum to see that there is no real clarity of the level needed by a lay jury.

            This then leads up to some pertinent questions (questions that a jury of lay people will be able to understand) …

            – First, the issue of the science is not really part of the jury’s job to look into, what is on the table is did Andrea Rossi meet his obligations within the terms of the contract if yes then why did IH reneg

            – The jury is going to be very interested in why the test ran for close on 12 months during which time IH did not file opposition to the test protocol with AR’s company. AFAICT they did not oppose the conduct of the test. It was only after the test that IH baulked, and as we know the successful test required IH to pay AR’s company $89m. This raises a question for the jury to consider as to if the real issue for IH was not having the funds to complete the contract vs does IH have legitimate grounds post test, to show there was something *clearly* wrong after the test ended.

            – Why are IH only challenging the calorimetry after what is claimed was a successful test by the presiding (dual protagonist appointed) ERV – the jury will be looking at this as it is something they can grasp. Some people in various forums have questioned as to if the ERV will be available to give testimony. If he doesn’t then the jury will have a right to ask why, but this aspect is speculation until such time as we are told the ERV will not and does not give evidence

            – The evidence of Smith, cannot be seen as untainted in that he is being hired by IH to back their position and as we know they have 89 million reasons that they don’t want AR to be successful. The jury will almost certainly have this pointed out

            – If I were the attack lawyer (for Rossi) I would be hammering the to the jury theme that the whole basis for this lawsuit is that IH want out of a successful test because they had found a very much cheaper source for a LENR reactor

            – If I were IH’s lawyer, I’d (1st be a bit worried) but hammer the theme that Rossi’s test was seriously flawed or highly flawed but knowing that this claim is ipso facto in that IH allowed the test to run for near full term without raising opposition

            Summary
            In a nutshell, IMHO, IH in order not to have to fulfill their side of the contract, are highly motivated to, in hindsight, attack the conduct or technical accuracy of the test, but are tainted by their lack of challenge before or when the test was run. A good lawyer on Rossi’s side has a lot to work with. A very very clever lawyer on IH’s side might be able to muddy the waters enough to win a hung jury who may tell the judge they don’t have enough comprehensible information to reach a majority verdict either way

          • radvar

            So, jury finds for the Rossi, IH, or hangs. Let’s skip the hanging as not interesting now.
            — if the jury finds for IH, are there variations?
            — if the jury finds for Rossi, are there variations?
            — what would a “loss” mean, functionally, for Rossi?
            — what would a “win” mean, functionally, for Rossi?
            Seems like these questions go into a matrix of scenarios, with money and IP being the main output variables.

          • doug marker

            Radar,
            Some thoughts …

            – If jury finds for AR, then expect IH to appeal (IMHO, a certainty).

            – If jury finds for IH, it is possible AR will appeal (he has the funds)

            Because appeals by both parties are IMHO so probable, there will be no quick outcome.

            If I look back at the The SCO Group litigation against IBM over Linux, the appeals went for about 8 years before IBM won, then yesterday I saw the remains of The SCO Group are still filing appeals against their string of losses.

            So, what conclusions might we draw from such litigation, delay delay delay delay …

            Doug Marker

          • radvar

            I guess the worst case immediate result would be if IH won, and was able to get an injunction against Rossi’s further development work, pending appeal.

          • doug marker

            As best I can tell, an IH win only means they don’t have to pay the 89M, pending a Rossi appeal. I can’t see anyway IH could stop AR’s activities ?.

          • sam

            Hi Doug
            You said this:

            Finally
            I cannot grasp why or how IH entered into this contract with $89 M on the table without going into very professional detail of how the test was going to be done and without having IH backup experts monitoring it in intricate detail. It beggars belief !

            What you said sums up why they got in the mess they are in.

          • doug marker

            Sam,
            Yes – it seems to me it is a mess, but sometimes business deliberately create messes for tactical reasons. That might be happening here else IH are too dumb to be trusted with serious investments. But make no mistake, Andrea Rossi is a hard man to deal with. They may be exploiting this.

            Doug

          • sam

            Or A.R. might be trying to exploit I.H mistakes.

          • Ged

            A double reverse advantage exploitation reacharound? Grand masters of chess, the lot of ’em.

          • sam

            A.R. and T.D. should have had a few golf or tennis games and got to know each
            other better and get past the
            mistrust.

          • Vinney

            Hello Doug,
            I like your summary, and I see another option with the introduction of a third party intermediary (or negotiator).
            It looks like IH’s latest colorimetric evidence is going to be ‘debunked’ before the trial by further evidence from Penon and internet experts.
            It may be entering this trial with no ‘damning’ real evidence.
            A third party should suggest (tailor) a settlement package suitable to both parties.
            A likely package (that Rossi would accept) is US $50 million (from IH) for IH to retain US exclusive distribution rights, the forfeiture of IP ownership of Rossi transferred IP, and non-exclusive license to manufacture for US and world (non EU) markets based on Rossi certified reference models.
            Whatever IH can improve on the reference models, they can patent.
            This enables them to get access to the latest E-cat technology, grow their business with IP protection, and incorporate other LENR technologies they have acquired. Potentially developing their own LENR technology in due course.
            There is one problem though, IH has got to be interested in production of this new technology.
            Which means a significantly bigger investment in the near future.

          • doug marker

            Vinney,
            A negotiated settlement is always on the cards but, if IH really believes the eCat IP is valid & the units work, then their actions in letting this go to trial may have a different motive to obtaining it.

            IMHO IH never really had anything to lose by holding out. By this I mean their actions (assuming they believe it works) can only be a tactic to delay the rollout and tie Andrea Rossi up in litigation. If they know it works, they can when it suits opt for a settlement that could be anything from less than $89M up to the full sum.

            If IH truly believes the IP is worthless and the eCats just don’t work, then they got into the most stunningly dumb deal allowing that they had already purchased a ‘working’ 1MW plant which they had to play with. Also IIRC there were claims that IH manufactured a batch of the reactors to be used in the 1 year test plant (can anyone recall this info ?).

            The worst assumption anyone can make of IH is that they entered into the deal just to talk up investment but never intended seeing the deal through and figured it would be worth a fight. But, I don’t really buy this case. However, IH’s actions during the test period need greater disclosure.

            Doug

          • Vinney

            Can the Court appoint a ‘mutually’ agreed on negotiator to draw up settlement contracts, to arrive at an agreed settlement.
            At what stage would IH feel this is a good option for them.
            We must be nearly there, as almost all their evidence has been ‘debunked’.

          • Engineer48

            Hi AM,

            What Rossi explained in 235-8 is this arrangement that allows him to adjust the kWs of heat radiated inside the JM Black Box vs those radiated by the external heat exchanger.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/936dc27c3c72e04d6cfb688f31bf0a477768044a6c70b58a0edebfe57cb85bbc.png

            Why Smith failed to mention it or photograph the area between images 11 and 12 is strange?

            Even stranger that Smith joined images 11 and 12 as it they were one image and there was nothing between them.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa7e95016d83ccdc12cef7e705fc231de640505cff9d5779f5613db564367de3.png

        • GiveADogABone
    • Bruce__H

      Hi Engineer

      Two passages from Penon’s ERV report (197-3, top of page 2) appear to me to describe a flow pattern that does not match the one you have been hypothesizing.

      1) “The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the plant, that receives the water from an external plant.
      It is conveyed by pumps in the units ecat, where it is heated to vaporize”

      > It may be language troubles but it sounds to me as though Penon is saying that it is the pumps siting beside the Tiger/BF units that convey the condensate from the storage tank to the reactors.

      2) “The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a a water line and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank into the internal tank by gravity.”

      > The external tank that Penon talks about here is the one that sits just outside the red ecat container in a specially constructed wooden cradle. You can see it in mnay pictures. Its top is about chest height and so the level of the condensate (before pumping) in the internal tank can’t be any higher.

      As far as I can see the setup described by Penon is consistent with Smith’s picture but not yours.

  • Engineer48

    Just a guess but I suspect the condensate flows through the 4 Tigers as under the Stage 3 flow & control system might be something like this:

    Tiger 4: 246 L/Hr from the 6 topping up pumps and 313 L/Day from the raw condensate flow.

    Tiger 3: 252 L/Hr from just the 6 topping up pumps

    Tiger 2: 258 L/Hr from just the 6 topping up pumps

    Tiger 1: 264 L/Hr from just the 6 topping up pumps

    Total hourly volume of 1,333 L/Hr and daily volume of 32,000 L/Day.

    The lower Tigers have a little more topping up pump flow due to higher condensate head pressure on their inlets, which reduces as the Tiger installation height increases.

    Stage 3 condensate flow and control system:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/af6a989f206b9de12fcf0932e207ab37a8662725bfac47cf7d7ee3519a7d88d9.png

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Regarding the “raw” condensate – if the water level in the ‘serpentine’ was high enough, the pressure might have been sufficient to feed at least the lower reactor units without much pumping. That way one could possibly go without the ‘red pump’, at least for a while. Bass says in his deposition that the filter box (I guess he means the one below the red pump) was only used when the plant started up, and has later been bypassed (see 207-48, p. 44f., PDF p. 7). If that was the case it would seem that the assistance of the red pump was not always available.

      • Engineer48

        Hi AM,

        The BlueCats have dual raw condensate supply pipes above their horizontal top steam pipes, plus the ALL the Tigers initially needed raw condensate that had an approx 2.5 mtr head.

        So sorry Murphy & Smith but the condensate supply system needs the Red Grundfos pump operating to achieve a 2.5 mtr condensate head above the flow meter and bottom of the ECat container.

        Statements from both Murphy & Smith suggest they never studied or understoid the condensate supply system nor understood the need for a 2.5 mtr condensate head inside the ECat container to supply both the Tigers and the Blue Ecat.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I agree that “water column” is the keyword. The energy to create this column might have come mainly from the E-Cats, since they enabled raising the (evaporated) water above a certain level.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Changing “mainly” to “partly”. I think this possibility has not yet been mentioned.

          • Engineer48

            Hi AM,

            The condensate head height in the ECat container needs to be higher than the condensate discharge height from the JM Black Box for both 1MW reactors to operate properly.

            The energy to do that extra condensate lift comes from the Red Grundfos condensate circulation pump.

      • GiveADogABone

        Nobody seems to have sketched in the heat exchanger in the second floor room. It needs a steam supply and a condensate return. The head height in the condensate return could be above the level of the mezzanine floor. I am thinking that the condensate return is the big shiny pipe with a substantial sloped section after the vertical drop. With that head available there is no need to run a pump; the condensate pumps itself using gravity.

        The Grundfos pump is a single point of failure. It stops working and the test stops AND so does the SSM cooling. Think electrical supply failure. The E-cat needs water after the electricity goes off. The pump is a startup and flushing pump.

        The condensate is at boiling point at the sub-atmospheric pressure in the second floor heat exchanger at the water level in the return pipe; somewhat less than 100C and atmospheric pressure. the unlagged pipe in the black box is the sub-cooling heat exchanger to get the water temperature down to 70C from, say 90C.

        The sub-atmospheric pressure in the 2nd floor ht ex provides the pressure differential to shift the steam from the E-cat to the 2nd flloor Ht Ex.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I would expect that the 2nd floor heat exchanger (if there was any) was decoupled from the primary loop. The medium was probably air. The vertical pipes on the wall do not look as if they were suitable for liquid water or steam. Wet air from a drying process might be a possibility, though.

          • GiveADogABone

            Why do the pipes seem unsuitable? The vertical pipes are metal, so 100C and no internal pressure is fine.

            I think the four vertical pipes are made of the same material as the 2nd floor Ht Ex and indeed are part of the heat exchanger. They dump their heat into the main warehouse space under the big room fan, so it is extracted quickly and never reaches ground level.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Without internal pressure, yes. But pumping water into the second floor would not work that way. These pipes resemble rather downspouts for gutters. However, it might be possible to use them for moving water upwards if they are carefully soldered or welded together.

          • Engineer48

            Hi AM,

            The 4 pipes appear to be 150mm in diameter, with a black outer covering and insulated internal pipes.

            Please note they cross the roof.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/404eb624d27f57708b686badba8fc3c3db0b380d852a2ed81b99a469bb6ca449.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cb650bdf4bcda7e79541c36db406273c7a9dd003f4fa30ca7553a42b227bd234.png

            According to Rossi’s statements in 235-8, between the image 11 and image 12 there was a system of pipes and valves that controlled what went up the pipes and into the secondary heat exchanger.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/936dc27c3c72e04d6cfb688f31bf0a477768044a6c70b58a0edebfe57cb85bbc.png

            I suggest the existence of these 4 pipes does support the Rossi statements about the pipes and valves between images 11 and 12 and the upper story secondary heat exchanger.

            Would like to know where the pipes went and have a photo of what existed between images 11 and 12. Maybe one day.

          • GiveADogABone

            235-8 : Rossi deposes on the blackbox pipework and the 2nd floor ht ex

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Difficult to interpret. I guess AR might have misunderstood the question about the heat exchanger, since the outlet of the ‘black box’ appears to be directly connected to the inlet of the plant. But actually, we don’t know.

          • GiveADogABone

            My version :
            The condensate outlet of the black box goes to the condensate inlet of the E-cat. The steam outlet of the black box goes to the 2nd floor heat exchanger and the condensate outlet of the 2nd floor ht ex goes to the condensate inlet of the black box.

          • Engineer48

            Hi AM,

            What Rossi explained in 235-8 is this arrangement that allows him to adjust the kWs of heat radiated inside the JM Black Box vs those radiated by the external heat exchanger.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/936dc27c3c72e04d6cfb688f31bf0a477768044a6c70b58a0edebfe57cb85bbc.png

            Why Smith failed to mention it or photograph the area between images 11 and 12 is strange?

            Even stranger that Smith joined images 11 and 12 as it they were one image and there was nothing between them.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa7e95016d83ccdc12cef7e705fc231de640505cff9d5779f5613db564367de3.png

        • GiveADogABone
    • Bruce__H

      Hi Engineer,

      Some questions and observations…

      1) In stage 3, where are the pumps for Tigers 1-3 getting their water supply from? It isn’t from the original (stage 1) source.

      2) at the very bottom left, just before the vertical pipe begins to ascend, there are 6 hoses emerging from the horizontal, lagged, condensate pipe. These hoses go back towards the Tigers at almost floor level and are then gathered together and sweep right so as to emerge low on the right hand side where they are plainly visible and bundled together with a zip cord. If you trace them they then ascend against the side of the Tigers in an “s” shape all the way to the Tiger 1 level where I lose them. What are these hoses doing? They are full of fusty water so they are part of the flow.

      3) I don’t think the vertical pipe carrying the condensate can be open at the top because it ends at a lower level than the white lagged pipes labelled “condensate” visible in the back half of the ecat plant. Those pipes actually almost go over the steam pipe so they are quite high up. If the vertical Tiger-feed pipe was open at the top I think it would be spewing water. To back up this point, look at the renderings of the 1MW plant Rossi provides on his website. You can see that the vertical pipe was never planned to be open at the top.

    • Bruce__H

      Hi Engineer

      Two passages from Penon’s ERV report (197-3, top of page 2) appear to me to describe a flow pattern that does not match the one you have been hypothesizing.

      1) “The cooling water is contained in a tank, placed inside the plant, that receives the water from an external plant.
      It is conveyed by pumps in the units ecat, where it is heated to vaporize”

      > It may be language troubles but it sounds to me as though Penon is saying that it is the pumps siting beside the Tiger/BF units that convey the condensate from the storage tank to the reactors.

      2) “The external tank is connected with the internal tank, by a a water line and a floating valve, so that the level of water inside the internal tank is maintained constant. The water flows from the external tank into the internal tank by gravity.”

      > The external tank that Penon talks about here is the one that sits just outside the red ecat container in a specially constructed wooden cradle. You can see it in mnay pictures. Its top is about chest height and so the level of the condensate (before pumping) in the internal tank can’t be any higher.

      As far as I can see the setup described by Penon is consistent with Smith’s picture but not yours.

  • That’s the reason why Jed Rothwell is sure the data is made up.
    Even the electricity bill confirms a power down while the ERV data says the plant run at normal power with normal electricity consumption.

    This fact combined with the fact that Rossi took the numbers and forwarded them to Penon should make one very careful in this matter!

    Think it over.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      According to Smith (ironically, “Rossi” means the same in Italian) the power outage happend on 04-07-2015 (235-10, p. 13). But the data from FPL does not seem to indicate a lower consumption at that time (236-47, p. 44). Looks as if they had an extra line installed that was not affected.

      • Interesting point, since this is a major and intriguing piece of circumstantial evidence from Defendants. Could we get any info on a extra line?

        BTW: ‘Smith’ is sometimes translated with ‘Rossi’ in Italian, not because it means the same, but because those names represent a typical person in their country. Like ‘Dupont’ in France, and ‘Svensson’ in Sweden.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terms_related_to_an_average_person

        • Andreas Moraitis

          You are correct. I should better have said that these terms are used in a similar way. Nonetheless, Wittgenstein taught us that meaning is determined by usage…;-)

        • GiveADogABone

          What evidence supports Rick Smith’s statement in 235-10 that ‘On 07 Apr 2015, there was a day long power interruption.’.

          If it was a planned outage, then a generator could have been installed and used for the duration. If Rossi kept a generator at Doral, then a short break before re-energisation, even if unplanned?

          As a side issue, Mr Smith raises the issue of energy output discrepancies in this section. His comments reflect his failure to understand that the ERV report discarded the enthalpy rise of the water and applied a 0.9 factor to the enthalpy rise of the steam.

          Going by Rick Smith’s track record, I would not get very exercised by this.

          • And I still wonder if it’s a ‘failure to understand’ or an unwillingness to understand or even a premeditated choice to not consider certain information. On someone’s request or not.

          • GiveADogABone

            I think Rick Smith and Joe Murray are pushing the boundaries of the definition of ‘expert’, which is good because it makes the jury’s job easier. The more junk we can find in their depositions, the better.

            Recent work has sorted the boiler gauge glass issue; its steam above the meniscus in the glass and therefore in the steam pipes. Also, there is no doubt in my mind the flowmeter operates flooded and properly. Murray stated in his deposition that he had no evidence of manipulation of the power data. That sorts all the variables in the CoP equation.

          • I think it’s just confirmation bias at work and we all must guard against it — plus a tinge of knowing which team you’re on… for the few that actually have a financial interest in how this plays out.

          • Sure it’s possible to have a generator running.

            But if you conduct a test with $89 Mio on stake (!!!), you must document each little unscheduled incident! You must! Especially such electrical energy issues in this special case of test!
            That’s obvious for everyone, except Rossi it seems.

          • GiveADogABone

            I take that to mean that you accept the numbers and graphs could and probably were right.

          • I hope they (the ERV numbers) are right.

            But I lose confidence day by day.
            There are too many inconsistencies. The straw men, the removed/destroyed evidence after the test and so on…

          • GiveADogABone

            Recent work has sorted the boiler gauge glass issue; its steam above the meniscus in the glass and therefore in the steam pipes. Also, there is no doubt in my mind the flowmeter operates flooded and properly. Murray stated in his deposition that he had no evidence of manipulation of the power data. That sorts all the variables in the CoP equation.

            Why are you losing confidence?
            The ERV report is starting to look bullet-proof.

          • Why are you losing confidence?
            It’s simply the overall picture of the story.

            Why on earth should someone do such a fuss as Rossi did, only to demonstrate an energy producing device?

            There are so many points where each one easily can be downplayed individually. But all together they smell to high heaven.

          • GiveADogABone

            You are missing the big question.
            Does it work?
            The ERV report says the numbers say yes and IH have yet to prove them wrong.

          • True, at the bottom of the suit is the question of whether it works or not.

            But again the question: Why on earth should someone do such a fuss like Rossi did, if his device works?
            His behavior is simply abnormal in his situation. If his device works it would be absolutely simple to prove that. But Rossi does not allow such measurements.

            For e.g. Darden suggested (as can be seen in the exhibits) to use totally independent TÜV experts to make the measurements, but Rossi was adamant to use Penon.

            Here the question arises: Why?
            Sure, you can again argue with the good old IP secrets etc.
            But in my oppinion this argument can not be applied here, because there is no need for the measurement personal to know the interiors of the black-box (the ecat). These guys simply have to measure power in vs. power out and calculate COP.

          • But Rossi does not allow such measurements.

            He allowed a team of scientists to test the reactor at length without his involvement for most of the experiment… twice!

            His behavior is simply abnormal in his situation.

            Agreed but that cuts both ways. How about starting legal proceedings when you’re the scammer? How about not taking financial independence money and calling it a day? How about living overnight in a warehouse for a year?

            …Rossi was adamant to use Penon.

            He’s very direct about this in his communications with Darden. The circle must be kept small or they risk all sorts of complications. Sure it looks suspicious when imagining conspiracies everywhere like IH currently is alleging. But it has a much simpler explanation: industrial secrecy.

          • That’s what I meant with “there are too many inconsistencies”.

            On the one hand it looks like Rossi is the victim, but on the other hand it’s no wonder that IH doesn’t want to pay the $89M.

            There would have been so many ways to make this test bullet-proof (e.g. using the TÜV), but Rossi (intentionally?) brought many factors into this test concept, which either opened loopholes or caused deception.

          • As I’ve stated previously, I don’t think this is about the $89M and I don’t think Rossi has much of a chance to win the lawsuit completely (but with juries always some chance).

            I think he is attempting to void the contract such that his QuarkX IP is free and clear. It’s the scenario that best fits the facts and circumstantial evidence for me.

          • Observer

            Does anyone have a map of IH incorporated entities; which one(s) are liable for the $89M, and which ones have rights to Rossi’s IP and which ones have the rights to IP they have acquired from others?

          • I think this is the point in Rossi’s way of acting (apart from that he’s a typical inventor, and as such has some difficulty to let other people deal with your invention):

            Let’s assume he has a working technology. Yet, in this little circle of people involved he can see a tremendous resistance, since the technology is a threat towards so many established structures in finance, industry and politics. It’s then easy to conclude that the more people involved, particularly people that you don’t know at all, the higher the risk for non proportional resistance, potentially impossible to defend yourself from.

            My point is: It’s easy to propose a simple and elegant conclusive bulletproof third party confirmation of the technology (‘why doesn’t he just do it??’) but in the real world it might be much more difficult, not for technical difficulties, but for the people involved.

          • That’s kind of understandable.

            But for example why didn’t Rossi give the Uppsalla professors some hints to allow a working non-competitive (COP ~ 2, maybe with an non-optimized recipe he had in his early days) but reliable and stable scientific replication?
            They would have been able to publish peer reviewed papers and spread the knowledge to break the wall.

            In the meanwhile Rossi could have been able to produce the COP > 20 version and sell it.

          • Hi all

            In reply to barty

            You are ignoring that Rossi was in such an Non Disclosure Agreement bind from IH that the only way the Penon report was disclosed to the public was by the force of it being required by the courts as evidence in a court case that Rossi had to initiate.

            Kind Regards walker

          • Hi Ian,

            how is this related to the bogus that was done to produce the numbers of the “Penon report”?

            This label (“Penon report”) by itself is laughable, if you consider that Penon didn’t do the measurements and was only a few times at Doral.

          • He did a lot of demos. He allowed a lot of testing. None of it was ever good enough.

            So he bit the bullet and turned over the reactor to scientists to test. The first Levi paper results. No good, not independent enough. Fine, he gives the reactor to the same team (more or less) in Lugano and lets them do whatever with it for months. How can that not be good enough? It was a big risk (industrial espionage is a thing). Still, apparently… not good enough, perhaps due to mistakes made by the professors — not his fault!

            After that one he said he’s done with demos and 3rd party tests. Commercialization was the only way. That’s how he’s been behaving since Lugano and I can’t say I blame him one bit.

          • Hi all

            I wonder just how much Platinum Black such a facility could produce?

            The sale and storage of it would be a useful thing to hunt down.

            Kind Regards Ian Walker

          • LT

            Q. There were heating cables installed in the — in the container at the J.M. Products side, correct?
            A. Yes, it is correct.

            Could it be that the steam was after heated by the heating cables to a much higher temperature and that the JMP part was for example a dehydrogenation unit used in a process where the other part of the process equipment was installed upstairs ?

          • GiveADogABone

            The reference number of your source document would be good. Somewhere I read that the trace heating was there to maintain Platinum temperatures if the steam supply failed. With steam supply on, the trace heating input would be a very small fraction of the energy input.

          • LT

            http://coldfusioncommunity.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0194.08_Exhibit_8.pdf

            Possibly you are right about maintaining the proper temperature if the steam supply faild.

          • Hi all

            In Reply to LT

            In terms of calorimetry

            What happens to the output heat once it is measured when it leaves the E-Cat Plant is irrelevant. It is a measured output that is all.

            In JM’s plant the temperature can go up down or sideways it is all without any exception completely irrelevant.

            When the fluid returns it is remeasured as an input the volume flow between the two should roughly match, ignoring pressure release and leakage, and the return temp is also largely irrelevant, as any temp below steam is minor compared to the energy required to make water into steam.

            The calorimetry is all that matters. More specifically how much volume passes from the E-Cat generator plant as steam output, and then returns as hot water plus condensate.

            Kind Regards Walker

          • LT

            I totally agree with you about the fact that it does not make any difference for the calorimetry of the plant.
            I was however curious why you would heat the steam afterwards when a lot of dicussion is about how to get rid of the heat of the steam.

          • doug marker

            This is just a thought. It may or may not have ‘legs’. It is an interesting thought

            But, the one issue IH could is the current non-acceptance by science of LENR. If I read correctly Smith has already raised this as an argument.

            If I were AR, and were able to anticipate that this might be a reason IH would decline to accept the contract irrespective of how well the plant worked, I would design a very small unit that could be tested *and easily shown to work*, without the complexity of the pluming and clearly complex calorimetry needed on larger models.

            If I had such a working design, I would hold it back firstly in the hope a settlement might be reached with IH, but if the trial starts, would then time its announcement. By releasing several units for testing the impact should be dramatic and quick.

            Assuming such a device exists (and we know AR says it does as the Quark X), it should shatter any trial defence that LENR doesn’t work.

            Small units that can show COP of 50 or 200 or what ever, would have to have an influence on the trial. AR wants that $89M plus the recognition of the invention. This hypothesis as to his actions could be his most powerful way to get it.

            But, the Quark X could also be bluff.

            Let the game roll on …

            D

          • wpj

            Impossible in that set up.

            Besides, the cost of material would run into millions.

            He only purchased a tiny amount which was chemically extracted from impregnated filters.

          • Hi all

            In reply to wpj.

            Hmm I would not say Platinum Black was impossible to produce in such a facility.

            The input would cost millions but the output material whould be worth many millions more.

            Rossi had a few million to play with.

            If JM was turning out Platinum black from JM facility they would have made a very significant profit and be more than able to afford the court case.

            Did IH make a very major legal strategy error?

            Kind Regards walker

          • wpj

            Unless you are passing hydrogen through, I don’t see how you can make platinum black. He said the system was just for drying.

            Having worked with (real) JM people, they told me that Pt production requires air suits due to the sensitising properties. Worst is Adam’s catalyst (PtO2), a precursor to Pt black. Once you have been sensitised, you can’t go back again……………………….

            Normal Pt would be 5-10% on carbon support

  • GiveADogABone

    E48 posted this eight months ago and made the point that the shiny pipe was then recently installed. I reckon it connects the black box in the JMP area to the 2nd floor heat exchanger and the black power cable is the electrical power supply to the fans.

    Pipe steam up or condensate down?
    I go for steam up because it goes so high. Condensate out would be at floor level (where the black cable turns into the mezzanine room).
    There must be a condensate return somewhere. Not impossible that the condensate return is hidden in the lagging of the shiny pipe.

    Search on ECW on ‘blinkers’
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/12/industrial-heat-amends-answer-to-rossis-complaint/comment-page-1/
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/429ef36df2a4060e28b7c2b905cb907abc2f3353b61528e19f990a0cfeb26f87.jpg

  • GiveADogABone

    E48 posted this eight months ago and made the point that the shiny pipe was then recently installed. I reckon it connects the black box in the JMP area to the 2nd floor heat exchanger and the black power cable is the electrical power supply to the fans.

    Pipe steam up or condensate down?
    I go for steam up because it goes so high. Condensate out would be at floor level (where the black cable turns into the mezzanine room).
    There must be a condensate return somewhere. Not impossible that the condensate return is hidden in the lagging of the shiny pipe.

    Search on ECW on ‘blinkers’
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/12/industrial-heat-amends-answer-to-rossis-complaint/comment-page-1/
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/429ef36df2a4060e28b7c2b905cb907abc2f3353b61528e19f990a0cfeb26f87.jpg

    • Bruce__H

      I recall that Rossi said in one of his depositions that this pipe was recent, had to do with confidential ongoing work undertaken by JMP and had nothing to do with the 1 year test.

      I’ll look for the citation but it may take a while

      Edit: Looked but didn’t find.

  • Stephen

    Has anyone ever tried to replicate the basic e-cat? It seems there have been plenty of attempts to replicate the hot cat type device and the Lugano device. I’m wondering if anyone has tried to replicate the basic units of this ECat?

  • Stephen

    Has anyone ever tried to replicate the basic e-cat? It seems there have been plenty of attempts to replicate the hot cat type device and the Lugano device. I’m wondering if anyone has tried to replicate the basic units of this ECat?

  • Bruce__H

    Contra Engineer48, one thing we might do here is take Rick Smith’s observations seriously and see where they go. If we come to a contradiction then that tells us that he (Smith) has it wrong. But if we don’t then I think his ideas are still in play and since he and Murray are the ones that have gone around the Doral facility then I think their version would win out (to my knowledge Rossi has never provided a schematic of how he things the flow of water and steam goes around the system — we have Penon’s but I don’t know if he actually investigated the plumbing arrangements of just wrote down what Rossi suggested to him).

    As per the schematic and verbal description on page 23 of doc 235-10, Smith describes a couple of water flows in the system. Here they are together with my observations

    1) Smith believes that the red pump on the JMP side pumped water down the condensate return line through the flowmeter and into the base of the steam riser of the ecat plant. The pressure of the pump then drove the water right to the top of the riser into the steam collection plenum near the ceiling of the ecat container and then into the Leonardo-to-JMP steam pipe and so eventually back to the JMP box and back to the red pump.

    > From this part of Smith’s proposal for water flow in the system I think that the flowmeter must run submerged. I don’t see, on this account, how the pressure generated by the red pump can be transmitted to the ecat steam riser if the condensate return is only partly filled. I notice that Smith doesn’t talk abut the flow meter running in a partially filled pipe so I think he realizes this.

    > Another consequence of part 1) of Smith’s proposal is that water could conceivably back up from the flooded steam pipes back into the Tiger/BF units.

    2) A concurrent flow pattern, according to Smith, begins at the condensate holding tank which Smith thinks holds water at atmospheric pressure. The pumps on the Tigers then pull this water up from the holding tank and inject it into the Tigers. This would then create a positive pressure pushing water out of the Tigers and into the steam riser where it is then becomes part of the other flow that is driven by the red pump on the JMP side.

    > There are opposing forces where this flow meets the flow in the steam riser (which is driven by the red JMP pump). The Tiger pumps are there to oppose the pressure from that flow and and force water over the heating elements inside the Tiger/BF units. But are the pumps capable of pulling water from the floor level up to the height of the Tigers. This is crucial.

    > This scenario depends on the riser somehow being connected to the condensate holding tank. Smith shows this in his schematic and knows it is a highly consequential observation so I surmise it is based on an observation he does not directly disclose.

    > It is not clear to me how the pressurized water in the riser becomes unpressurized water in the holding tank. Some sort of valve?

    > The Tiger/BF units definitely have to run flooded in this scenario. I thought earlier that this was not the case but now I see that it has to be so. This means that the sight glasses on the front of the units would have to be spoofed. This would be easy to do (just close the valve at the top of the sight glass tube so that you are seeing a bubble of air rather than the actual level of liquid inside the Tiger/BF).

    Overall, I don’t see any major inconsistencies in the flow pattern proposed by Smith, although if the Tiger pumps can’t pull water up to the level the Tigers are at then that would be a big problem. They must also be able to overcome the pressure from the red pump on the JMP side. It should be noted that if Smith’s conjecture is right it means that the flow meter is probably reporting the water flow accurately but that this flow is entirely due to the red pump and has nothing to do with steam.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If the internal tank (which I guess is what you mean by “condensate return”) was not closed, both the ‚red pump’ and the ‚water column’ theory would not work. But from where do you know that it was open? As far as I remember, Penon said that it was typically closed. I know that Jed R states that it wasn’t, but he has already been wrong with the “100.1” figure and the DN40 pipe. Consider also the possibility that there was a bypass from the inlet directly to the reactors.

      In general, I would agree that there are still inconsistencies, but without knowing every detail it seems next to impossible to come to a definite conclusion.

      • Engineer48

        HI AM,

        For the condensate supply system to work there would need to be a vent to atmo, higher than the highest condensate design head, such as to relieve in the pressure in the system on filling and vacuum on emptying.

        Smith stated the internal condensate tank was vented to atmo, as it would need to be. He did not state how high was the vent, which would need to be higher than the highest head.

        • Bruce__H

          Penon describes a gravity fed connection between the external tank and the internal tank. The connection is controlled by a “floating valve” so as to maintain the level of the water in the internal tank constant. How does this fit in with your scheme?

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I think the tank itself would have to kept closed, but with an opening on the top of the long vertical pipe it might work. At least if not quite ¼ bar overpressure was enough.

          • Engineer48

            HI AM,

            Yes a 2.5 mtr head would give 0.245 barg pressure at the floor of the ECat container.

            As there would be positive pressure at the inlet of every pump, this would reduce the effective back pressure the pump would experience and would increase the flow rate.

            The topping up pumps are rated at a MIN of 32 L/Hr with a 2 barg back pressure and at a MIN of 36 L/Hr with a 1 barg back pressure. Not too much to suggest at a back pressure of 0 barg, they may pump a MIN of 40 L/Hr.

            As the steam pressure was 0.0 barg, the effective back pressure on the pumps would be a little higher or say 0.1 barg. With an inlet pressure of 0.245 barg, the pumps would have a negative back pressure of -0.145 barg and might be able to pump 40 L/Hr.

            I believe Rossi took advantage of creating a condensate head inside the ECat container as it caused a positive inlet pump pressure, reducing pump back pressure and increasing the flow rate of the topping up pumps.

            Clever boy.

      • Bruce__H

        I have 3 reasons to think that the internal tank was not sealed and supporting a column of water. First Smith says it is “eventually” vented to atmosphere. Second, in a document marked “Final Report” (236-43, page 40) Penon says that the water level in the internal tank is maintained constant via a gravity-fed connection with an external tank. This external tank is visible in photos sitting in its wooden cradle just outside the red ecat container and its top is about chest height. Finally, Penon says that the connection between the internal and external tanks is controlled by a “floating” valve.

        The only way this can all fit together is if the internal tank is open to the atmosphere and its water surface is about chest height (chest height, that is, for someone standing on the ground outside the ecat container). That places the water level in the internal tank something like 2 feet above the floor of the ecat container.

        The Smith version of flow only works if there is some sort of valve that allows the pressurized and water-filled steam riser to dump some of its contents into the internal tank at atmospheric pressure. I don’t know what that mechanism is.

    • BillH

      Good to see some independent thinking on this subject Bruce. However there is a big problem with trying to introduce the red pump into the equation, they would be much better saying it was tried and discarded before the test started or that it was “planted” during the visit to the site by defendants/council.

      The explained use of the red pump would contradict Penon’s statement in the final report that he didn’t require to know anything about what was taking place in the JMC part of the plant. The red pump would become an integral part in explaining how the plant actually worked. If the red pump was used it should have been on the IH side of the plant so that it could have been taken into account in Penon’s explanation of the test.

      • GiveADogABone

        That is a strong point. The 2nd floor heat exchanger gives the steam/water circulation a reliable driving head that requires no electricity or control. That said the fans in the 2nd floor do require power. The loss of fans, if it ever happened, would have the effect of stopping the condensation process, the reduction of condensate pressure and increased steam pressure.

      • Bruce__H

        I agree completely. I have been thinking the same thing. I don’t think Penon knew anything about this pump or about the actual flow pattern in the ecat plant.

  • Hi all

    I wonder just how much Platinum Black such a facility could produce?

    The sale and storage of it would be a useful thing to hunt down.

    Kind Regards Ian Walker

    • wpj

      Impossible in that set up.

      Besides, the cost of material would run into millions.

      He only purchased a tiny amount which was chemically extracted from impregnated filters.

      • Hi all

        In reply to wpj.

        Hmm I would not say Platinum Black was impossible to produce in such a facility.

        The input would cost millions but the output material whould be worth many millions more.

        Rossi had a few million to play with.

        If JM was turning out Platinum black from the JM facility they would have made a very significant profit and be more than able to afford the court case.

        Did IH make a major legal strategy error?

        Kind Regards walker

        • wpj

          Unless you are passing hydrogen through, I don’t see how you can make platinum black. He said the system was just for drying.

          Having worked with (real) JM people, they told me that Pt production requires air suits due to the sensitising properties. Worst is Adam’s catalyst (PtO2), a precursor to Pt black. Once you have been sensitised, you can’t go back again……………………….

          Normal Pt would be 5-10% on carbon support

          • Joseph J

            Do you need a license to produce these things. Where to find them?

  • GiveADogABone

    Perhaps this is enough to get the 2nd floor heat exchanger taken into account in steam/condensate design issues?

    235-8 : Andrea Rossi on the subject of the black box pipework and the 2nd floor heat exchanger

    17 Q. And so it remains steam as it’s going
    18 through these four pipes?
    19 A. Yes, sir.

    20 Q. And then between Exhibit 11 and Exhibit
    21 12 there is a — we will get into more detail on it
    22 but there is a mechanism in place to carry the heated
    23 fluid out of the container — out of the J.M.
    24 Products container to a heat exchanger; is that
    25 correct?
    1 A. Yes, there is a bypass.

    2 Q. There is a bypass, okay.
    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And then after the heated fluid goes into
    5 the heat exchanger, it comes back as cooled fluid?
    6 A. The cold fluid, yes.

    7 Q. The cold fluid. And it comes into the
    8 pipe that we see on Exhibit 12, which is the — it
    9 looks like it’s a pipe wrapped in white insulation
    10 with some tan tape on it?
    11 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Yes. When the — when the cold fluid
    17 comes back into the container after it has gone
    18 through the heat exchanger, it would come into the
    19 pipe that is wrapped in white insulation with tan
    20 tape somewhere on the left-hand side of Exhibit 12,
    21 or what’s not seen on the left-hand side of Exhibit
    22 12?
    23 A. Yes, it is — yes, relatively cold.
    24 Relatively respect the steam, because it was still
    25 warm, but yes.

    1 Q. Then it would flow through this pipe
    2 that’s covered in white insulation and tan tape out
    3 through the — what we see here on the right-hand
    4 side of Exhibit 12?
    5 A. Uh-huh.

    6 Q. And that would then flow back to the
    7 Leonardo side of the Doral warehouse?
    8 A. Yes.

    • Bob K

      235-8 is a good read. AR’s scenario sounds logical, possible and believable.

  • GiveADogABone

    Perhaps this is enough to get the 2nd floor heat exchanger taken into account in steam/condensate design issues?

    235-8 : Andrea Rossi on the subject of the black box pipework and the 2nd floor heat exchanger

    17 Q. And so it remains steam as it’s going
    18 through these four pipes?
    19 A. Yes, sir.

    20 Q. And then between Exhibit 11 and Exhibit
    21 12 there is a — we will get into more detail on it
    22 but there is a mechanism in place to carry the heated
    23 fluid out of the container — out of the J.M.
    24 Products container to a heat exchanger; is that
    25 correct?
    1 A. Yes, there is a bypass.

    2 Q. There is a bypass, okay.
    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And then after the heated fluid goes into
    5 the heat exchanger, it comes back as cooled fluid?
    6 A. The cold fluid, yes.

    7 Q. The cold fluid. And it comes into the
    8 pipe that we see on Exhibit 12, which is the — it
    9 looks like it’s a pipe wrapped in white insulation
    10 with some tan tape on it?
    11 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Yes. When the — when the cold fluid
    17 comes back into the container after it has gone
    18 through the heat exchanger, it would come into the
    19 pipe that is wrapped in white insulation with tan
    20 tape somewhere on the left-hand side of Exhibit 12,
    21 or what’s not seen on the left-hand side of Exhibit
    22 12?
    23 A. Yes, it is — yes, relatively cold.
    24 Relatively respect the steam, because it was still
    25 warm, but yes.

    1 Q. Then it would flow through this pipe
    2 that’s covered in white insulation and tan tape out
    3 through the — what we see here on the right-hand
    4 side of Exhibit 12?
    5 A. Uh-huh.

    6 Q. And that would then flow back to the
    7 Leonardo side of the Doral warehouse?
    8 A. Yes.

    • Bob K

      235-8 is a good read. AR’s scenario sounds logical, possible and believable.

  • LT

    Q. There were heating cables installed in the — in the container at the J.M. Products side, correct?
    A. Yes, it is correct.

    Could it be that the steam was after heated by the heating cables to a much higher temperature and that the JMP part was for example a dehydrogenation unit used in a process where the other part of the process equipment was installed upstairs ?

    • GiveADogABone

      The reference number of your source document would be good. Somewhere I read that the trace heating was there to maintain Platinum temperatures if the steam supply failed. With steam supply on, the trace heating input would be a very small fraction of the energy input.

    • Hi all

      In Reply to LT

      In terms of calorimetry

      What happens to the output heat once it is measured when it leaves the E-Cat Plant is irrelevant. It is a measured output that is all.

      In JM’s plant the temperature can go up down or sideways it is all without any exception completely irrelevant.

      When the fluid returns it is remeasured as an input the volume flow between the two should roughly match, ignoring pressure release and leakage, and the return temp is also largely irrelevant, as any temp below steam is minor compared to the energy required to make water into steam.

      The calorimetry is all that matters. More specifically how much volume passes from the E-Cat generator plant as steam output, and then returns as hot water plus condensate.

      Kind Regards Walker

      • LT

        I totally agree with you about the fact that it does not make any difference for the calorimetry of the plant.
        I was however curious why you would heat the steam afterwards when a lot of dicussion is about how to get rid of the heat of the steam.

      • clovis ray

        I totally agree and have said as much earlier, thanks Walker for confirming me.
        I really appreciate you and E48 coming on line and giving you expert oppinion.
        It had turned into a I/H love fest here latly. With the truth being stretched in every direction.

  • GiveADogABone

    No worries. Taking ‘I don’t see why the reactors need to be flooded, however.’ in isolation :
    From IH’s point of view it drastically reduces the specifc enthalpy change of the water as it circulates and therefore reduces the related CoP. Specific enthalpy of vapourisation is 2257kJ/kg and specific heat of water is 4.2kJ/kg C.

    • Bruce__H

      Sure. It might even mean COP = 1. That is what IH and Boeing found in their own tests of the ecat.

  • doug marker

    This trial is boiling down to one side’s version of the calorimetry vs the other’s

    The jury would all need to be engineers to be able to follow the intricacies of it. We only have to look at the diversity of opinions from ‘experts’ here and at LENR forum to see that there is nothing easy to understand at the level needed by a lay jury.

    This then leads to some pertinent questions (questions that a jury of lay people *may* be able to understand) …

    – First, the issue of the science is not really part of the jury’s job to look into, what is on the table is did Andrea Rossi meet his obligations within the terms of the contract if yes then why did IH reneg

    – The jury is going to be very interested in why the test ran for close on 12 months during which time AFAICT IH did not file opposition to the test protocol with AR’s company. AFAICT they did not oppose the conduct of the test. It was only after the test that IH baulked, and as we know the successful test required IH to pay AR’s company $89m. IMHO, this raises a question for the jury to consider is if the real issue for IH, was not actually having the funds to complete the contract versus did IH actually have legitimate grounds post test, to show there was something *clearly* wrong *after* the test ended.

    – Why are IH only challenging the calorimetry after what is claimed was a successful test by the presiding (dual protagonist appointed) ERV – the jury will be looking at this as it is something they can grasp. As a side note, some people in various LENR forums, have questioned as to if the ERV will be available to give testimony. If he doesn’t then the jury will have a right to ask why, but this claim appears to be speculation until such time as we are told the ERV will not and does not give evidence

    – The evidence of Smith, cannot be seen as untainted in that he is being hired by IH to back their position and as we know they have 89 million reasons that they don’t want AR to win this case. The jury will almost certainly have this pointed out to them as an argument

    – If I were the attack lawyer (for Rossi) I would be pointing the jury to a theme that the whole basis for this lawsuit is that IH want out of a successful test because they had found a very much cheaper source for a LENR reactor, or an alternate possibly cheaper IP and thus want out, but (if this is a valid line of argument), a deal is a deal and IH must honor it

    – If I were IH’s lawyer, I’d (1st be a bit worried) but hammer the theme that Rossi’s test was seriously flawed or highly flawed, but, knowing that this claim is ipso facto in that IH allowed the test to run for near full term without raising opposition

    Summary
    In a nutshell, IMHO, IH in order not to have to fulfill their side of the contract (for whatever reaons they have), are now highly motivated to attack the conduct or technical accuracy of the test, but are seriously tainted by their lack of challenge before or when the test was being run. A good lawyer on Rossi’s side has a lot to work with. But, a very very clever lawyer on IH’s side might be able to muddy the waters enough to win a hung jury who may tell the judge they don’t have enough comprehensible information to reach a majority verdict either way

    Finally
    I cannot grasp why or how IH entered into this contract with $89 M on the table without going into very professional detail of how the test was going to be done and without having IH backup experts monitoring it in intricate detail. It beggars belief !

    PS: What does make complete sense to me, would be if IH are (for several reasons) trying to hold Andrea Rossi back. That opens up a litany of valid political reasons as well as some obvious economic ones

    • sam

      Hi Doug
      You said this:

      Finally
      I cannot grasp why or how IH entered into this contract with $89 M on the table without going into very professional detail of how the test was going to be done and without having IH backup experts monitoring it in intricate detail. It beggars belief !

      What you said sums up why they are in the mess they are in.

      Regards
      Sam

      • doug marker

        Sam,
        Yes – it seems to me it is a mess, but sometimes business deliberately create messes for tactical reasons. That might be happening here else IH are too dumb to be trusted with serious investments. But make no mistake, Andrea Rossi is a hard man to deal with. They may be exploiting this.

        Doug

        • sam

          Or A.R. might be trying to exploit I.H mistakes.

          • Ged

            A double reverse advantage exploitation reacharound? Grand masters of chess, the lot of ’em.

          • sam

            A.R. and T.D. should have had a few golf or tennis games and got to know each
            other better and get past the
            mistrust.

    • Vinney

      Hello Doug,
      I like your summary, and I see another option with the introduction of a third party intermediary (or negotiator).
      It looks like IH’s latest calorimetric evidence is going to be ‘debunked’ before the trial by further evidence from Penon and internet experts.
      It may be entering this trial with no ‘damning’ real evidence.
      A third party should suggest (tailor) a settlement package suitable to both parties.
      A likely package (that Rossi would accept) is US $50 million (from IH) for IH to retain US exclusive distribution rights, the forfeiture of IP ownership of Rossi transferred IP, and non-exclusive license to manufacture for US and world (non EU) markets based on Rossi certified reference models.
      Whatever IH can improve on the reference models, they can patent.
      This enables them to get access to the latest E-cat technology, grow their business with IP protection, and incorporate other LENR technologies they have acquired. Potentially developing their own LENR technology in due course.
      There is one problem though, IH has got to be interested in production of this new technology.
      Which means a significantly bigger investment in the near future.

      • doug marker

        Vinney,
        A negotiated settlement is always on the cards but, if IH really believes the eCat IP is valid & the units work, then their actions in letting this go to trial may have a different motive to obtaining it so soon.

        IMHO IH never really had anything to lose by holding out. By this I mean their actions (assuming they believe it works) can only be a tactic to delay the rollout and tie Andrea Rossi up in litigation. If they know it works, they can when it suits opt for a settlement that could be anything from less than $89M up to the full sum. I don’t think Andrea Rossi will not proceed if the offer is close to the original.

        If IH truly believes the IP is worthless and the eCats just don’t work, then they got into the most stunningly dumb deal allowing that they had already purchased a ‘working’ 1MW plant which they had to play with. Also IIRC there were claims that IH manufactured a batch of the reactors to be used in IIRC, either the lugarno test ? or the 1 year test plant (can anyone recall this info ?).

        The worst assumption anyone can make of IH is that they entered into the deal just to talk up investment but never intended seeing the deal through and figured it would be worth a fight. But, I don’t really buy this case. However, IH’s actions during the test period need greater disclosure.

        Doug

        • Vinney

          Can the Court appoint a ‘mutually’ agreed on negotiator to draw up settlement contracts, to arrive at an agreed settlement.
          At what stage would IH feel this is a good option for them.
          We must be nearly there, as almost all their evidence has been ‘debunked’.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Somebody at LENR forum came just with the idea that a wrong software setting for the thermocouples could have implied an outlet temperature of 99C (thus, no steam). I’m giving again some numbers (input power = 10 kW):

    Flow rate – T(in) – T(out) – COP

    1500 –60 –99 –6.8
    1500 –70 –99 –5.1

    750 –60 –99 –3.4
    750 –70 –99 –2.5

    Even if the lower COP values do not match the requirements of the GPT, they indicate still significant excess heat. One would have to ‘tune’ the figures extremely to conclude that the technology does not work at all.

    • doug marker

      What can we learn from LENR Forum and such posts ? – nothing – all speculation on speculation – so does it matter ? – only as entertainment.

      It is going to be we say, they say, and that is how the trial will likely go.

      D

    • GiveADogABone

      Desperate stuff trying to keep the steam pipe flooded nonsense alive.

      • Engineer48

        HI GADAB,

        Visual data strongly suggests the flooded idea as no legs and is in the same class as the flow meter pipe was only partly filled.

        • GiveADogABone

          With no evidence of manipulation of the power readings, as stated by Murray, no water in the steam pipes and full flow in the flowmeter, the CoP calculation from IH’s point of view looks desperate. There are no more variables.

          • Engineer48

            Hi GADAB,

            Take a few hard nosed engineers.
            Give them the visual evidence and other evidence.
            Lets them bounce ideas around.

            End Result = IH has a lot of work to do to prove the COP is not correct.

          • GiveADogABone

            And the punchline?
            IH have to submit their own numbers eventually, otherwise how do they PROVE their version of the CoP is less than six. In effect, they have to produce their own version of the ERV report and PROVE it.

            Just saying the ERV’s CoP is not correct is no PROOF at all. Then the roles are reversed and Rossi gets to attack the IH version.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Obviously, they could not carry out their own test of this particular plant. But your argument might be applicable to the invoked unsuccessful tests of other Rossi devices. Recently I found this interesting article (see especially p. 2, “Use of Testing in a Trial”):

            https://media2.mofo.com/documents/100420_experimentaltestinginpatentlit.pdf

            If I understand the authors correctly, you have to provide documentation of the tests you made. It is not enough just to say “it did not work”.

          • GiveADogABone

            Thanks for that AM; a good find. I will reread that reference and see if I get more from it but I note Daubert gets a mention and Daubert motions have already been submitted in Rossi v IH.

            I think what is bugging me is the lack of data to support Rick Smith’s and Joe Murray’s opinions. It all seems very weak and ‘hand waving’. I note that experts seem to be expected to submit their supporting data, along with their opinions. Not much sign of that.

            ‘[IH] could not carry out their own test of this particular plant’
            I am not sure I see that. IH and Rossi were partners in running this test and both parties contracted to accept the ERV’s verdict (essentially CoP greater or less than six). IH received regular reports, had employees in the test and could have said something about worries about the numbers at any stage but they did not. The reported CoPs were high (at the 80 level) from day one.

            ‘It is not enough just to say “it did not work”.’
            That seems pretty much where the IH case is right now.
            If Smith’s and Murray’s depositions are excluded by Daubert or anything else where does that leave IH?

          • GiveADogABone

            I have posted about 215: Daubert Motion dated March 23,2017.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Somebody at LENR forum came just with the idea that a wrong software setting for the thermocouples could have implied an outlet temperature of 99C (thus, no steam). I’m giving again some numbers (input power = 10 kW):

    Flow rate – T(in) – T(out) – COP

    1500 –60 –99 –6.8
    1500 –70 –99 –5.1

    750 –60 –99 –3.4
    750 –70 –99 –2.5

    Even if the lower COP values do not match the requirements of the GPT, they indicate still significant excess heat. One would have to ‘tune’ the figures extremely to conclude that the technology does not work at all.

    • doug marker

      What can we learn from LENR Forum and such posts ? – nothing – all speculation on speculation – so does it matter ? – only as entertainment.

      It is going to be we say, they say, and that is how the trial will likely go.

      D

    • GiveADogABone

      Desperate stuff trying to keep the steam pipe flooded nonsense alive.

      • Engineer48

        HI GADAB,

        Visual data strongly suggests the flooded idea as no legs and is in the same class as the flow meter pipe was only partly filled.

        • GiveADogABone

          With no evidence of manipulation of the power readings, as stated by Murray, no water in the steam pipes and full flow in the flowmeter, the CoP calculation from IH’s point of view looks desperate. There are no more variables.

          • Engineer48

            Hi GADAB,

            Take a few hard nosed engineers.
            Give them the visual evidence and other evidence.
            Lets them bounce ideas around.

            End Result = IH has a lot of work to do to prove the COP is not correct.

          • GiveADogABone

            And the punchline?
            IH have to submit their own numbers eventually, otherwise how do they PROVE their version of the CoP is less than six. In effect, they have to produce their own version of the ERV report and PROVE it.

            Just saying the ERV’s CoP is not correct is no PROOF at all. Then the roles are reversed and Rossi gets to attack the IH version.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Obviously, they could not carry out their own test of this particular plant. But your argument might be applicable to the invoked unsuccessful tests of other Rossi devices. Recently I found this interesting article (see especially p. 2, “Use of Testing in a Trial”):

            https://media2.mofo.com/documents/100420_experimentaltestinginpatentlit.pdf

            If I understand the authors correctly, you have to provide documentation of the tests you made. It is not enough just to say “it did not work”.

          • GiveADogABone

            Thanks for that AM; a good find. I will reread that reference and see if I get more from it but I note Daubert gets a mention and Daubert motions have already been submitted in Rossi v IH.

            I think what is bugging me is the lack of data to support Rick Smith’s and Joe Murray’s opinions. It all seems very weak and ‘hand waving’. I note that experts seem to be expected to submit their supporting data, along with their opinions. Not much sign of that.

            ‘[IH] could not carry out their own test of this particular plant’
            I am not sure I see that. IH and Rossi were partners in running this test and both parties contracted to accept the ERV’s verdict (essentially CoP greater or less than six). IH received regular reports, had employees in the test and could have said something about worries about the numbers at any stage but they did not. The reported CoPs were high (at the 80 level) from day one.

            ‘It is not enough just to say “it did not work”.’
            That seems pretty much where the IH case is right now.
            If Smith’s and Murray’s depositions/opinions are excluded by Daubert or anything else where does that leave IH?

          • GiveADogABone

            I have posted about 215: Daubert Motion dated March 23,2017.

          • Bruce__H

            I think one of the hard-nosed engineers will want to know how the external reservoir feeds the condensate return tank by gravity if that tank has a 2.5 metre head of pressure on it.

  • Engineer48

    In regard to unproven claims that condensate was pumped from the top of the steam riser inside ECat container to the top of the heat exchanger inside the JM container, I submit three images which are self explanatory.

    Smith makes an unsupported and unproven claim that the condensate return was connected to the bottom of the steam riser, yet presents no evidence to back this claim. Is this how an Expert works? Making claims in his report that he never presents any data to support?

    The facts presented to date DO NOT show any such connection, plus we have the Penon diagram showing there is no such connection.

    Smith needs to back up his claim about pumped condensate from the ECat to the JM heat exchanger with proof his supposed connection between the steam riser and the condensate tank exists plus there needs to be determinations if the height of the condensate vent pipe inside the ECat container is higher or lower than the height of the top of the heat exchanger inside the JM container.

    What we do know is the flow meter, when condensate was flowing, was at the lowest point of the condensate supply system and did not operate partly filled. Anyone making statement that the flow meter operated partly filled is knowingly making incorrect statements, plus they need to retract such past statements.

    Penon connections:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/df6cbbaa3b4c9dd814098a6a45ea1f06c5ec40a06b31e5fb0753c389d68e3576.png

    Smith connections:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/73cec74ddb34f507f62a35b000c71479de91d2142768b889d6e4fda466cea410.png

    What gravity says:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b4c835995484ef1ff1b18ee93f1c70943704726c62063fa3acf3068d57c569ee.png

    • GiveADogABone

      @E48 I think you need to modify your thinking to take account of the complete steam/water circuit up to and back from the 2nd floor heat exchanger. The condensate column that starts at the mezzanine floor level eliminates the need for the red Grunfos pump. Depositions support the idea that the red pump was not used at 1MW power levels. The steam/water circuit via the 2nd floor ht ex pumped itself, except for the addition of the Prominent boiler pumps.

      This gives more driving head that currently assumed.

      • Engineer48

        HI GADAB,

        You could be right as the condensate would have a head around the height of the 2nd floor. Means any condensate vent stacks inside the ECat container would need to pass air but not water, which is easily doable.

        I think Rossi designed for the situation where there was no condensate head from the upper floor as then the Grundfos pump would be needed to achieve the required condensate head inside the ECat container.

        Just maybe the 2nd Grundfos pump found under the mezzanine stair was used to lift the 2nd heat exchanger condensate output to the top of the ceiling so it could return down the pipes on the wall.

        Those 4 pipes run just under the ceiling and any return condensate would need to be lifted to the height of those pipes:
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cb650bdf4bcda7e79541c36db406273c7a9dd003f4fa30ca7553a42b227bd234.png

        • GiveADogABone

          There is a deposition that explains it. The unlagged pipes in the black box were supposed to contain Platinum that was to be heated. The filter after the red pump was there to collect particulates (presumably Platinum). The unlagged pipes, the red pump and the filter were the experimental production. They went out of service when the experiment stopped.

  • Engineer48

    In regard to unproven claims that condensate was pumped from the top of the steam riser inside ECat container to the top of the heat exchanger inside the JM container, I submit three images which are self explanatory.

    Smith makes an unsupported and unproven claim that the condensate return was connected to the bottom of the steam riser, yet presents no evidence to back this claim. Is this how an Expert works? Making claims in his report that he never presents any data to support?

    The facts presented to date DO NOT show any such connection, plus we have the Penon diagram showing there is no such connection.

    Smith needs to back up his claim about pumped condensate from the ECat to the JM heat exchanger with proof his supposed connection between the steam riser and the condensate tank exists plus there needs to be determinations if the height of the condensate vent pipe inside the ECat container is higher or lower than the height of the top of the heat exchanger inside the JM container.

    What we do know is the flow meter, when condensate was flowing, was at the lowest point of the condensate supply system and did not operate partly filled. Anyone making statement that the flow meter operated partly filled is knowingly making incorrect statements, plus they need to retract such past statements.

    Penon connections:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/df6cbbaa3b4c9dd814098a6a45ea1f06c5ec40a06b31e5fb0753c389d68e3576.png

    Smith connections:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/73cec74ddb34f507f62a35b000c71479de91d2142768b889d6e4fda466cea410.png

    What gravity says:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b4c835995484ef1ff1b18ee93f1c70943704726c62063fa3acf3068d57c569ee.png

    • Bruce__H

      You are completely correct that Smith will have to have evidence for this connection. It will come down to that. I don’t really understand his game, though, if you think he is making it all up.

      Have you seen any photographic evidence as to how the condensate return pipe enters the ecat plant and makes a connection with the internal water tank?

    • GiveADogABone

      @E48 I think you need to modify your thinking to take account of the complete steam/water circuit up to and back from the 2nd floor heat exchanger. The condensate column that starts at the mezzanine floor level eliminates the need for the red Grunfos pump. Depositions support the idea that the red pump was not used at 1MW power levels. The steam/water circuit via the 2nd floor ht ex pumped itself, except for the addition of the Prominent boiler pumps.

      This gives more driving head that currently assumed.

      • Engineer48

        HI GADAB,

        You could be right as the condensate would have a head around the height of the 2nd floor. Means any condensate vent stacks inside the ECat container would need to pass air but not water, which is easily doable.

        I think Rossi designed for the situation where there was no condensate head from the upper floor as then the Grundfos pump would be needed to achieve the required condensate head inside the ECat container.

        Just maybe the 2nd Grundfos pump found under the mezzanine stair was used to lift the 2nd heat exchanger condensate output to the top of the ceiling so it could return down the pipes on the wall.

        Those 4 pipes run just under the ceiling and any return condensate would need to be lifted to the height of those pipes:
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cb650bdf4bcda7e79541c36db406273c7a9dd003f4fa30ca7553a42b227bd234.png

        • GiveADogABone

          There is a deposition that explains it. The unlagged pipes in the black box were supposed to contain Platinum that was to be heated. The filter after the red pump was there to collect particulates (presumably Platinum). The unlagged pipes, the red pump and the filter were the experimental production. They went out of service when the experiment stopped.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    If the internal tank (which I guess is what you mean by “condensate return”) was not closed, both the ‚red pump’ and the ‚water column’ theory would not work. But from where do you know that it was open? As far as I remember, Penon said that it was typically closed. I know that Jed R states that it wasn’t, but he has already been wrong with the “100.1” figure and the DN40 pipe. Consider also the possibility that there was a bypass from the inlet directly to the reactors.

    In general, I would agree that there are still inconsistencies, but without knowing every detail it seems next to impossible to come to a definite conclusion.

    • Engineer48

      HI AM,

      For the condensate supply system to work there would need to be a vent to atmo, higher than the highest condensate design head, such as to relieve in the pressure in the system on filling and vacuum on emptying.

      Smith stated the internal condensate tank was vented to atmo, as it would need to be. He did not state how high was the vent, which would need to be higher than the highest head.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I think the tank itself would have to kept closed, but with an opening on the top of the long vertical pipe it might work. At least if not quite ¼ bar overpressure was enough.

        • Engineer48

          HI AM,

          Yes a 2.5 mtr head would give 0.245 barg pressure at the floor of the ECat container.

          As there would be positive pressure at the inlet of every pump, this would reduce the effective back pressure the pump would experience and would increase the flow rate.

          The topping up pumps are rated at a MIN of 32 L/Hr with a 2 barg back pressure and at a MIN of 36 L/Hr with a 1 barg back pressure. Not too much to suggest at a back pressure of 0 barg, they may pump a MIN of 40 L/Hr.

          As the steam pressure was 0.0 barg, the effective back pressure on the pumps would be a little higher or say 0.1 barg. With an inlet pressure of 0.245 barg, the pumps would have a negative back pressure of -0.145 barg and might be able to pump 40 L/Hr.

          I believe Rossi took advantage of creating a condensate head inside the ECat container as it caused a positive inlet pump pressure, reducing pump back pressure and increasing the flow rate of the topping up pumps.

          Clever boy.

    • Bruce__H

      I have 2 reasons to think the internal tank was not sealed supporting a column of water. First Smith says it is “eventually” vented to atmosphere. Second, in a report marked “Final Report” (236-43, page 40) Penon reports that the level of the water level in the internal tank is maintained constant via a gravity feed connection with an external tank. This external tank is visible sitting in its wooden cradle just outside the red ecat container and its top is about chest height. Finally, Penon says that the connection between the internal and external tanks is controlled by a “floating” valve.

      The only way this can all fit together is if the internal tank is open to the atmosphere and its water surface is about chest height (chest height, that is, for someone standing on the ground outside the ecat container). That places the water level in the internal tank something like 2 feet above the floor of the ecat container.

      The Smith version only works if there is some sort of valve that allows the pressurized and water-filled steam riser to dump some of its contents into the internal tank at atmospheric pressure. I don’t know what that mechanism is.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Frank, something appears to be wrong with the text boxes. After pasting some text into the box it is not possible to edit it. As a result, if I want to make any changes I have to close my browser, delete the cookies and start it again.

    • LT

      I have the problem that when typing text the text box sometimes locks up
      Don’t know if it is the same problem
      However when it stops I hit the windows button on my keyboard.
      After that I can continue editing
      Maybe it helps you also

      • GiveADogABone

        Same for me on Linux using Firefox.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Same on mac – constant locking up, I have to post and then refresh the window.

      • Barbierir

        I had the same issue recently. Your trick of hitting the windows button works.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Works indeed. Thank you very much!

    • US_Citizen71

      Past the text in notepad first. Notepad when clean hidden html out of the text, which is likely the cause. It is also an OK editor.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Frank, something appears to be wrong with the text boxes. After pasting some text into the box it is not possible to edit it. As a result, if I want to make any changes I have to close my browser, delete the cookies and start it again.

    • LT

      I have the problem that when typing text the text box sometimes locks up
      Don’t know if it is the same problem
      However when it stops I hit the windows button on my keyboard.
      After that I can continue editing
      Maybe it helps you also

      • GiveADogABone

        Same for me on Linux using Firefox.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Same on mac – constant locking up, I have to post and then refresh the window.

      • Barbierir

        I had the same issue recently. Your trick of hitting the windows button works.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Works indeed. Thank you very much!

    • US_Citizen71

      Past the text in notepad first. Notepad when clean hidden html out of the text, which is likely the cause. It is also an OK editor.

  • Engineer48

    In 235-8 Rossi states the pipes and valves that control the flow to the upper story heat exchanger existed between Exhibit 11 and Exhibit 12, yet Smith joints the 2 images as it they were connected.

    Please look at the images, left being Exhibit 11 and right being Exhibit 12 and read 235-8 starting at page 120-1 where Rossi claims that between 11 and 12 were the pipes and controls that sent steam to the upper floor and received the condensate from it.

    Smith shows 11 and 12 as if they are connected and makes no mention of any such equipment, pipes and values existing between 11 and 12. Rossi claims in his court statement that between images 11 and 12 exists the connections to the upper floor heat exchanger.

    Are Exhibit 11 and 12 connected as Smith shows or not?
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c1aa99e2b12be7f8ef24e2f8f82ea120b57be97d160f4cc48ab596a03e92b8e6.png

    If Rossi is right, then we now know how the pipes on the wall connect inside the JM Black Box:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1c31ea4d5cd97765a5361d5aa17938fd52ee661fea70be9d6b4ba886490cbf9a.png

    • Engineer48

      Do note that in the images taken by Leonardo Expert Wong, in one we see two men by the 4 x window that were working on the panes.

      Guys working on the windows:
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/340aaeb14934a4721d27c1efd6b9a9718bd3fb143771e4348d3fe4969f3f2e4e.png

      And in another Wong image we see the window business truck that had arrived to replace the panes. Can even see the name of the window company. Guys in the truck are looking directly at the missing window panes.

      Window business trucks:
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7001d2295e1ad821ea5ee938c7a3134316b0a94b1badac5b1070bfcc652ceaac.png

      Interesting stains & tyre like marks on the upper floor:
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/779f31363e4d5e491f25fa9a708bdb489303569a0ccc5a40fc0a0030922b7bdc.png

      • GiveADogABone

        238-24 Prof Wong’s deposition
        37 pages, including the photos
        p6 Conclusions
        The heat that could be dissipated by this heat exchanger is at least 1MW.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Unfortunately, Wong was there in February 2017 (see 194-06, p. 105/PDF p.5), a long time after the test. IMHO, Plaintiffs should have provided unambiguous evidence for the existence of a heat exchanger in the mezzanine. It might be that they want to save their best card for the trial. But then they would risk a summary judgment in Defendant’s favour.

      • ecw123456

        Why hasn’t IH (or Rossi) tracked down the company that did the windows job and asked exactly what they did. If you enhance the Wong picture through the window you can read the name of the company on the truck.

        • radvar

          305-231-4897 takes you right to a glass company

          • Engineer48

            Hi Radvar,

            Nice. You mean this one with the same phone number on the glass truck door?

            Glass Windows & Sliding Doors
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7001d2295e1ad821ea5ee938c7a3134316b0a94b1badac5b1070bfcc652ceaac.png

            Seems Wong & Rossi score a point or two about the windows and Smith, Murray & Co lose several point for suggesting other than the reality.

          • GiveADogABone

            I have a clear memory of you sketching an evaporator in the main warehouse with the plume rising to the vent holes above. You got it wrong. The evaporator was in the mezzanine room. Only 9/10 I am afraid!

            Perhaps what ‘Smith, Murray & Co’ might really lose is the 215: Daubert Motion? Lose that and IH have no evidence to put before the jury regarding the E-cat and its operation. No technical evidence and the ERV report stands. Then what?

  • Engineer48

    In 235-8 Rossi states the pipes and valves that control the flow to the upper story heat exchanger existed between Exhibit 11 and Exhibit 12, yet Smith joints the 2 images as it they were connected.

    Please look at the images, left being Exhibit 11 and right being Exhibit 12 and read 235-8 starting at page 120-1 where Rossi claims that between 11 and 12 were the pipes and controls that sent steam to the upper floor and received the condensate from it.

    Smith shows 11 and 12 as if they are connected and makes no mention of any such equipment, pipes and values existing between 11 and 12. Rossi claims in his court statement that between images 11 and 12 exists the connections to the upper floor heat exchanger.

    Are Exhibit 11 and 12 connected as Smith shows or not?
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c1aa99e2b12be7f8ef24e2f8f82ea120b57be97d160f4cc48ab596a03e92b8e6.png

    If Rossi is right, then we now know how the pipes on the wall connect inside the JM Black Box:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1c31ea4d5cd97765a5361d5aa17938fd52ee661fea70be9d6b4ba886490cbf9a.png

    • Bruce__H

      Both Rossi and Smith say the 2 sets of pipes are connected. Rossi says that he constructed a butterfly valve to direct the flow of steam either through the serpentine arrangement in the black box or upstairs to the radiator as he saw fit.

  • doug marker

    Steve,
    The best value I can see in the claims of the Quark X, is that it would be far easier to prove it as a working eCat than happened with the 1Mw plant.

    A successful little Quark X by default is a powerful back up for the big eCats.

    Doug

  • Engineer48

    To make it very clear here is what Rossi claims exists between the right of Exhibit image 11 and the left of Exhibit image 12 and what Smith suggests exists.

    Simple for Rossi’s people to ask Smith what exists between the 2 images.

    Rossi’s version:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/936dc27c3c72e04d6cfb688f31bf0a477768044a6c70b58a0edebfe57cb85bbc.png

    Smith’s version:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa7e95016d83ccdc12cef7e705fc231de640505cff9d5779f5613db564367de3.png

    One is incorrect.

    • GiveADogABone

      It bears repetition to say that the lagged ‘serpentine heat exchanger’ is nothing of the sort. Calling it a heat exchanger demonstrates the ignorance of the person who gave it that name or perhaps I might be allowed to wonder if that deceit was deliberate? IH are trying very hard to wipe out all trace of the 2nd floor heat exchanger in their narrative which is a very good reason for highlighting it.

      The top serpentine is a flexibility bend to isolate the thermal expansion of the long length of steam pipe from the E-cat and the long length of condensate pipe to the E-cat. Putting the 2nd floor heat exchanger pipe connections on the lower pipe is the right thing to do. A crude calc of the steam pipe expansion is 3cm.

    • Stephen

      Take a look at the shadows in the right hand picture.

      The length and direction of the shadows will indicate the distance from the light source. I think that should prove if there is a gap or not.

      There is a squareish shadow in the top left corner. In the right hand picture.

      There is no obvious shadow from the diagonal struts in the right hand picture.

      There is a shadow in the floor which is hard to explain.

      The pipe on the floor is missing

      There is an interesting shadow in the white lagging that looks like it could come from a handle… bare in mind the shadows are stretched due to the angle and distance of the light source.

      • GiveADogABone

        In a deposition Rossi was shown the photos and stated what was in the gap

        235-8 Rossi
        20 Q. And then between Exhibit 11 and Exhibit
        21 12 there is a — we will get into more detail on it
        22 but there is a mechanism in place to carry the heated
        23 fluid out of the container — out of the J.M.
        24 Products container to a heat exchanger; is that
        25 correct?
        1 A. Yes, there is a bypass.

        • Stephen

          Yup I read it the whole disposition on Rossi’s side looks fully consistent and believable to me.

          And explains what we see and didn’t fully understand completely.

          It makes total sense as a working device to set up that way set up for flexibility and to take care of contingencies.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            PLUS Rossi’s disposition is backed by the visual evidence of others. While there are a few missing images we would like to see, what we can see is that which Rossi explains.

    • SG

      So Smith basically pulled a fast one on us, and the court.

  • Engineer48

    To make it very clear here is what Rossi claims exists between the right of Exhibit image 11 and the left of Exhibit image 12 and what Smith suggests exists.

    Simple for Rossi’s people to ask Smith what exists between the 2 images.

    Rossi’s version:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/936dc27c3c72e04d6cfb688f31bf0a477768044a6c70b58a0edebfe57cb85bbc.png

    Smith’s version:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa7e95016d83ccdc12cef7e705fc231de640505cff9d5779f5613db564367de3.png

    One is incorrect.

    • GiveADogABone

      It bears repetition to say that the lagged ‘serpentine heat exchanger’ is nothing of the sort. Calling it a heat exchanger demonstrates the ignorance of the person who gave it that name or perhaps I might be allowed to wonder if that deceit was deliberate? IH are trying very hard to wipe out all trace of the 2nd floor heat exchanger in their narrative which is a very good reason for highlighting it.

      The top serpentine is a flexibility bend to isolate the thermal expansion of the long length of steam pipe from the E-cat and the long length of condensate pipe to the E-cat. Putting the 2nd floor heat exchanger pipe connections on the lower pipe is the right thing to do. A crude calc of the steam pipe expansion is 3cm.

    • Stephen

      Take a look at the shadows in the right hand picture.

      The length and direction of the shadows will indicate the distance from the light source. I think that should prove if there is a gap or not.

      The shadows of the lower pipes are there and two unbends from the lower pipes can be seen in the bottom of the picture. But the top left looks different…

      There is a squareish shadow in the top left corner. In the right hand picture. What is that?

      The white lagged pipe is partly shadowed at the top but not at the bottom.

      There is no obvious shadow from the diagonal struts of the rig in the right hand picture.

      There is a shadow in the floor which is hard to explain.

      The pipe on the floor is missing

      There is an interesting shadow in the white lagging that looks like it could come from a handle…

      Bare in mind the shadows are stretched due to the angle and distance of the light source.

      • GiveADogABone

        In a deposition Rossi was shown the photos and stated what was in the gap

        235-8 Rossi
        20 Q. And then between Exhibit 11 and Exhibit
        21 12 there is a — we will get into more detail on it
        22 but there is a mechanism in place to carry the heated
        23 fluid out of the container — out of the J.M.
        24 Products container to a heat exchanger; is that
        25 correct?
        1 A. Yes, there is a bypass.

        • Stephen

          Yup I read it the whole disposition on Rossi’s side looks fully consistent and believable to me.

          And explains what we see and didn’t fully understand completely.

          It makes total sense as a working device to set up that way set up for flexibility and to take care of contingencies.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            PLUS Rossi’s disposition is backed by the visual evidence of others. While there are a few missing images we would like to see, what we can see is that which Rossi explains.

    • SG

      So Smith basically pulled a fast one on us, and the court.

  • Engineer48

    I submit the following visual evidence that the backup 1MW BlueCat array needed a 2.5 mtr condensate head to operate and that those reactor pumps did not SUCK condensate up from the holding tank but were feed condensate under pressure from the 2.5 mtr high condensate head.

    To lift the condensate 2.5 mtr above the floor of the ECat container needed the pumping energy from the Red Grundos pump in the JM Black Box.

    Both of the two banks of BlueCats were feed condensate the same way. Via a 2.5 mtr condensate lift and head.

    Marked up image:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ef83e11ca9dc3402baa1ac28a616616500453a349a05c1c971df5acb526691c5.png

    Original image:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a44b08a8c49c459b1af4bda42b05f29ecd859ba8f370441479069f987fcaa0d0.png

  • Engineer48

    I submit the following visual evidence that the backup 1MW BlueCat array needed a 2.5 mtr condensate head to operate and that those reactor pumps did not SUCK condensate up from the holding tank but were feed condensate under pressure from the 2.5 mtr high condensate head.

    To lift the condensate 2.5 mtr above the floor of the ECat container needed the pumping energy from the Red Grundos pump in the JM Black Box.

    Both of the two banks of BlueCats were feed condensate the same way. Via a 2.5 mtr condensate lift and head.

    Marked up image:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ef83e11ca9dc3402baa1ac28a616616500453a349a05c1c971df5acb526691c5.png

    Original image:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a44b08a8c49c459b1af4bda42b05f29ecd859ba8f370441479069f987fcaa0d0.png

    • Bruce__H

      Smith’s theory of how the flow works stands an falls on the ability of the Tiger pumps to pull water from the condensate return tank up to the ceiling and then into the ecat units. Are they physically capable of doing this?

  • Toussaint françois

    Andrea Rossi is having an important surgery, his recent whiteboard photo concerns me.

    • Engineer48

      Hi TF,

      Yes, the wig covering his hair or lack of it?

      • Toussaint françois

        Yes

  • Engineer48

    Do note that in the images taken by Leonardo Expert Wong, in one we see two men by the 4 x window that were working on the panes.

    Guys working on the windows:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/340aaeb14934a4721d27c1efd6b9a9718bd3fb143771e4348d3fe4969f3f2e4e.png

    And in another Wong image we see the window business truck that had arrived to replace the panes. Can even see the name of the window company. Guys in the truck are looking directly at the missing window panes.

    Window business trucks:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7001d2295e1ad821ea5ee938c7a3134316b0a94b1badac5b1070bfcc652ceaac.png

    Interesting stains & tyre like marks on the upper floor:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/779f31363e4d5e491f25fa9a708bdb489303569a0ccc5a40fc0a0030922b7bdc.png

    • GiveADogABone

      238-24 Prof Wong’s deposition
      37 pages, including the photos
      p6 Conclusions
      The heat that could be dissipated by this heat exchanger is at least 1MW.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Unfortunately, Wong was there in February 2017 (see 194-06, p. 105/PDF p.5), a long time after the test. IMHO, Plaintiffs should have provided unambiguous evidence for the existence of a heat exchanger in the mezzanine. It might be that they want to save their best card for the trial. But then they would risk a summary judgment in Defendant’s favour.

    • Bruce__H

      Hi Engineer,

      From Smith’s supplemental report, here (235-10, page 8) is a passage describing the state of the 2nd floor radiator room as of March 2 2017 …

      “There was no lighting, other than the windows, no electrical power (save two small junction boxes and some small conduit), no holes or patches where conduit and power boxes would have been mounted, no holes or patches where piping would have been supported, no hole patches in the floor or the drywall wall – in short, nothing.”

      So … no holes or patches in the floor or the wall. I think the thing that looks like a hole filled with expanding foam is just some sort of stain.

      How did the pipes coming from the JMP black box enter this room?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Smith also put images 11 and 12 together as if there was nothing between them. Doing that suggests to me the story he has put together may not be all that he knows and he has with held some information.

        We know there are 4 approx 150mm dia pipes running across the ceiling from the North wall. They were not there before the plant fired up. From the sat images they do not go through the roof. Smith would have photos of where they go. Why has he not shared photos of the upper floor dry wall and where those 4 pipes go?

        BTW simple to run some flexible 3 phase power cable up through the opening in the dry wall to power the upper story heat exchanger fans.

        The condensate from the upper story heat exchanger could just flow downhill in the 2 black hoses that run under the door in the JM Black Box and are connected to the lower heat exchanger via again the opening in the dry wall.

        Maybe ask yourself why would Rossi put that opening there and construct stairs to allow access to the upper story from the JM plant area?

        So the power for the fans could be supplied by cable through the dry wall opening, the condensate flow down via the 2 visible black hoses and the steam supplied by the 4 x 150mm dia pipes.

        Just need Smith to share the photos he took of where those 4 overhead pipes went and photos of the rear dry wall so we can see how they entered the upper story.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I like the idea of flexible cables. There could also have been pipes and/or hoses leading through the same opening.

          BTW, I meanwhile tend to the assumption that the four pipes on the wall had nothing to do with the heat exchanger, since the so-called mezzanine was probably not located above, but a few meters below the ceiling. The four pipes could have been part of an independent venting system that has not been mentioned in the depositions.

        • Bruce__H

          What opening in the drywall? Smith says there wasn’t one.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bruce,

            Smith also claims there is a connection from the Tiger steam riser to the condensate holding tank, yet provides no images or proof plus joins images 11 and 12 to suggest there is nothing between them.

            He clearly has not shared all the info he has, like photos of the whole of the upper story, all of the rear of the upper story office dry wall, where the 4 overhead pipes terminate and a single photo showing that the pipes in 11 are directly connected to the pipes in 12.

            If these photos would support his case, why has he not published them?

        • Bruce__H

          Hi Engineer,

          You said “We know there are 4 approx 150mm dia pipes running across the ceiling from the North wall. They were not there before the plant fired up.”

          I think they were not there after the plant shut down either. From exhibit 26 attached to IH’s second amended answer (050-26). please see the photos Murray took in Feb 2016. I don’t see the 4 pipes although I do see some sort of electrical conduit.

          What date are the pictures you are working from? Is it the Feb 2017 walk-around by all parties? It sounds to me as though these 4 pipes are something Rossi has put up between Feb 2016 and Feb 2017. Maybe these are the pipes that he says he took from the exchanger and repurposed.

        • Bruce__H

          Images 11 and 12 were not taken by Smith. Smith and Murray have never been allowed in the JMP black box. Instead, the images were provided to IH by JMP as part of discovery (see 235-5 points 6 and 8).

          I suppose it was Rossi who took them but I don’t really know. You talk to Rossi sometimes, maybe you should ask him why the middle part was left out.

    • ecw123456

      Why hasn’t IH (or Rossi) tracked down the company that did the windows job and asked exactly what they did. If you enhance the Wong picture through the window you can read the name of the company on the truck.

  • Thank you for this useful contribution.

  • Source?

    The released documents clearly state that no one at IH had a clue that JMP was made up by Rossi.

  • BillH

    Good to see some independent thinking on this subject Bruce. However there is a big problem with trying to introduce the red pump into the equation, they would be much better saying it was tried and discarded before the test started or that it was “planted” during the visit to the site by defendants/council.

    The explained use of the red pump would contradict Penon’s statement in the final report that he didn’t require to know anything about what was taking place in the JMC part of the plant. The red pump would become an integral part in explaining how the plant actually worked. If the red pump was used it should have been on the IH side of the plant so that it could have been taken into account in Penon’s explanation of the test.

    • GiveADogABone

      That is a strong point. The 2nd floor heat exchanger gives the circulation a reliable driving head that requires no electricity or control. That said the fans in the 2nd floor do require power. The loss of fans, if it ever happened, would have the effect of stopping the condensation process and reduction of condensate pressure.

  • GiveADogABone

    I simply urge all those who are interested in the depositions of Rick Smith and Joe Murray about the E-cat hardware and test to read this :
    215 : Plaintiffs Daubert Motion dated March 22, 2017
    I have no knowledge of the current status of this motion.

    I append a few notes I made about the Daubert test regarding expert witnesses :
    Ipse dixit – Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipse_dixit
    Ipse dixit is an assertion without proof; or a dogmatic expression of opinion. The fallacy of defending a proposition by baldly asserting that it is “just how it is” …

    The Daubert test arose out of the United States Supreme Court case Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, 509 U.S. 579 (1993). It requires four things to be shown:
    1. That the theory is testable (has it been tested?)
    2. That the theory has been peer reviewed, (Peer reviewing usually reduces the chances of error in the theory)
    3. The reliability and error rate (100% reliability and zero error are not required, but the rates should be considered by the trial judge)
    4. The extent of general acceptance by the scientific community

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daubert_standard
    General Electric Co. v. Joiner,[1] which held that a district court judge may exclude expert testimony when there are gaps between the evidence relied on by an expert and his conclusion,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_witness
    Generally, under Rule 702, an expert is a person with “scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge” who can “assist the trier of fact,” which is typically a jury

    The use of expert witnesses is sometimes criticized in the United States because in civil trials, they are often used by both sides to advocate differing positions, and it is left up to a jury to decide which expert witness to believe.

    The expert’s testimony must be based on facts in evidence, and should offer opinion about the causation or correlation to the evidence in drawing a conclusion.

    under Rule 702, an expert is a person with “scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge” who can “assist the trier of fact,” which is typically a jury.

    • radvar

      Interesting timing:

      – January 30 – deadline for experts testimony
      – February 16 – Murray’s supplemental report
      – March 20 – Smith’s supplemental report (note: one day before the next event —)
      – March 21 – Deadline for motions to dismiss expert testimony (oops)
      – March 23 – Plaintiff’s motion to dismiss Smith’s and Murray’s reports (item 215)

      Suggests either very poor or very good calendar reading skills…

  • GiveADogABone

    I simply urge all those who are interested in the depositions of Rick Smith and Joe Murray about the E-cat hardware and test to read this :
    215 : Plaintiffs Daubert Motion dated March 22, 2017
    I have no knowledge of the current status of this motion.

    I append a few notes I made about the Daubert test regarding expert witnesses :
    Ipse dixit – Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipse_dixit
    Ipse dixit is an assertion without proof; or a dogmatic expression of opinion. The fallacy of defending a proposition by baldly asserting that it is “just how it is” …

    The Daubert test arose out of the United States Supreme Court case Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, 509 U.S. 579 (1993). It requires four things to be shown:
    1. That the theory is testable (has it been tested?)
    2. That the theory has been peer reviewed, (Peer reviewing usually reduces the chances of error in the theory)
    3. The reliability and error rate (100% reliability and zero error are not required, but the rates should be considered by the trial judge)
    4. The extent of general acceptance by the scientific community

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daubert_standard
    General Electric Co. v. Joiner,[1] which held that a district court judge may exclude expert testimony when there are gaps between the evidence relied on by an expert and his conclusion,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_witness
    Generally, under Rule 702, an expert is a person with “scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge” who can “assist the trier of fact,” which is typically a jury

    The use of expert witnesses is sometimes criticized in the United States because in civil trials, they are often used by both sides to advocate differing positions, and it is left up to a jury to decide which expert witness to believe.

    The expert’s testimony must be based on facts in evidence, and should offer opinion about the causation or correlation to the evidence in drawing a conclusion.

    under Rule 702, an expert is a person with “scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge” who can “assist the trier of fact,” which is typically a jury.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    Smith also put images 11 and 12 together as if there was nothing between them. Doing that suggests to me the story he has put together may not be all that he knows and he has with held some information.

    We know there are 4 approx 150mm dia pipes running across the ceiling from the North wall. They were not there before the plant fired up. From the sat images they do not go through the roof. Smith would have photos of where they go. Why has he not shared photos of the upper floor dry wall and where those 4 pipes go?

    BTW simple to run some flexible 3 phase power cable up through the opening in the dry wall to power the upper story heat exchanger fans.

    The condensate from the upper story heat exchanger could just flow downhill in the 2 black hoses that run under the door in the JM Black Box and are connected to the lower heat exchanger via again the opening in the dry wall.

    Maybe ask yourself why would Rossi put that opening there and construct stairs to allow access to the upper story from the JM plant area?

    So the power for the fans could be supplied by cable through the dry wall opening, the condensate flow down via the 2 visible black hoses and the steam supplied by the 4 x 150mm dia pipes.

    Just need Smith to share the photos he took of where those 4 overhead pipes went and photos of the rear dry wall so we can see how they entered the upper story.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I like the idea of flexible cables. There could also have been pipes and/or hoses leading through the same opening.

      BTW, I meanwhile tend to the assumption that the four pipes on the wall had nothing to do with the heat exchanger, since the so-called mezzanine was probably not located above, but a few meters below the ceiling. The four pipes could have been part of an independent venting system that has not been mentioned in the depositions.

    • Bruce__H

      What opening in the drywall? Smith says there wasn’t one.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Smith also claims there is a connection from the Tiger steam riser to the condensate holding tank, yet provides no images or proof plus joins images 11 and 12 to suggest there is nothing between them.

        He clearly has not shared all the info he has, like photos of the whole of the upper story, all of the rear of the upper story office dry wall, where the 4 overhead pipes terminate and a single photo showing that the pipes in 11 are directly connected to the pipes in 12.

        If these photos would support his case, why has he not published them?

    • Bruce__H

      Hi Engineer,

      You said “We know there are 4 approx 150mm dia pipes running across the ceiling from the North wall. They were not there before the plant fired up.”

      I think they were not there after the plant shut down either. From exhibit 26 attached to IH’s second amended answer (050-26). please see the photos Murray took in Feb 2016. I don’t see the 4 pipes although I do see some sort of electrical conduit.

      What date are the pictures you are working from? Is it the Feb 2017 walk-around by all parties? It sounds to me as though these 4 pipes are something Rossi has put up between Feb 2016 and Feb 2017. Maybe these are the pipes that he says he took from the exchanger and repurposed.

  • Bruce__H

    An interesting analysis, by THHuxleynew, of the capabilities of Rossi’s 2nd story heat exchanger has appeared on LENR forum

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/thread/4745-rossi-vs-darden-developments-part-2/?postID=55228#post55228

    TH has worked hard on this and I would appreciate hearing what people think of it (and, I’m sure, so would he). He finds that Wong made mistakes in his calculations by overestimating the wind velocity across the pipes of the exchanger and so choosing an inappropriate heat conduction coefficient. After making some fairly generous (to Rossi) assumptions TH still finds that the Rossi’s proposed heat exchanger would dissipate about 100kW.

    • Bruce__H

      Some observations on THHuxleynew’s analysis…

      1) He models the heat exchanger as having air flowing tranversely over the pipes. I’m not sure if this depends on something submitted in evidence or is a guess. Other patterns may be more efficient at dissipating heat. It can’t be a purely a countercurrent exchanger, however, because the pipes are described at one point as as laid out in a serpentine fashion.

      2) He consistently makes assumptions fin Rossi’s favour. For transverse flow,, therefore, the figure of (about) 100kW dissipation acts as an upper limit

      3) There are only 2 fans involved here. I can’t see these producing an air current that would equally reach all parts of the pipes over their 10m length. The efficiency of the heat exchanger would suffer accordingly.

    • GiveADogABone

      The best way to condense steam to water is to evaporate some other water to vapour. Just remind me. What did the second Grundfos pump under the rickety stairs do? More lateral thinking perhaps and then recalculate?

      http://www.installationsclassees.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/Air-cooling-tower.html
      What is an air cooling tower?2 A wet air cooling tower is an “air/water” heat exchanger in which the water to be cooled is in direct contact with ambient air. The hot water is sprayed onto the upper part of the air cooling tower and streams onto the heat exchange body. The air circulates through the streaming system and is discharged into the atmosphere.

      **** Cooling mostly results from water evaporation; ****

      system efficiency is linked to the design and maintenance of the air cooling tower as well as atmospheric conditions (temperature and moisture).

      • Bruce__H

        I was wondering about this myself but neither Rossi nor Wong mention it.
        I assume that Wong would have known and/or that Rossi would have had him redo his calculations if this were the case.

        Why is everyone talking about second Grundfos pump? I think there is only one. It was found by Murray under the stairs to the mezzanine.

        • GiveADogABone

          The IH ‘experts’ need every opportunity to make complete fools of themselves and put their foolishness into the court record. See 215: Plaintiffs’ Daubert Motion.

          The second pump is in the black box and you have not answered the question. Photos of both pumps are in 248-6:

          • Bruce__H

            My impression from the wording in Smith’s supplemental report is that there is only one pump. But if there are 2 of them then that is fine with me. Either it is a spare, on hand in case a crucial component in the plant breaks down, or it was used for something else. I’m not trying to avoid anything here.

          • GiveADogABone

            Thanks for giving it some thought. I was trying to figure out if two simultaneous uses for the pump/s existed. If E48 were right and the condensate was pumped for the test, then what was the 2nd pump under the stairs doing during the test? It might have had a purpose related to the mezzanine ht ex or even Quark tests after the E-cat test finished.

          • Bruce__H

            Most likely only one pump. That is what Murray and Smith think anyway. It isn’t a lock though because they weren’t allowed to look in the JMP black box so the couldn’t see if there is one still in place there.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bruce,

            Rossi told me the Tiger topping pumps did not carry the entire flow volume. He said there was a master pump that did most of the flow volume and that the topping up pumps were used to control the unique water levels in each Tiger.

            Nothing I have seen is against that. Everything I have seen supports it.

          • Bruce__H

            Hi Engineer,

            Here is Penon’s description of the flow system in his final ERV report (top of page 40 in doc 236-43) …

            “The cooling water is is contained in a tank, placed inside the plant, that receives water from an external plant. It is conveyed by pumps in the units E-Cat, where it is heated to vaporize”

          • Bruce__H

            Have you been able to confirm yet what I noticed before — that the lagged condensate pipe at ground level below the Tigers/BFs does not connect with the vertical pipe?

          • Bruce__H

            That is certainly interesting to know. Why didn’t he tell Penon?

          • Bruce__H

            Murray located a Grundfos pump under the mezzanine stairs on the March 2 2017 inspection of the Doral site. It is shown in 248-6. Once Murray and Smith saw the pump they realized that it was the same as one shown in a picture that they had obtained from JMP during discovery showing the inside of the black box. That is the other picture shown in 248-6. Murray and Smith have never been allowed inside the JMP black box (see 235-5 points 6 and 8) but they believe that the pump they located under the stairs and the one in the black box are one and the same.

      • Bruce__H

        A thought. If your proposal for water cooling is correct, would you not expect large clouds of steam clouds of steam to be emitted from the 2nd storey window under certain conditions? What conditions and how much? I would have thought someone would notice, maybe they can be located.

  • radvar

    Duh, er, sorry for being slow, if this has been covered…it seems like Rossi would have a very detailed set of pictures of the entire plant, heat exchanger and all, everything except the innards of the customer black box. What are reasons for them not being in the currently collected evidence?

    • Wouldn’t be surprised. But what’s your source?

      • radvar

        Sorry, source = conjecture on my part (“seems”).
        Re the question on my part, restated, how could Rossi have such pictures in his possession and not have been required to produce them?
        Possible answers:
        1) He did not take the pictures because he did not want to be deposed for them (hard to believe, he’s too good an engineer)
        2) He was asked for the pictures but failed to disclose them (bad)
        3) IH did not ask him for the pictures (“any and all photographic evidence of the plant taken before, during or after the test period”) (hard to believe, however, IH made some pretty hard to believe omissions in due diligence along the way)
        4) Such pictures were somehow covered under NDA that would survive even deposition (possible; if so, there should be evidence of that).

        • doug marker

          The evidence gathering during the disclosure and depositions phases is only ever what each side asks for or wants to put forward (the other side has to provide truthful answers or if it can be proved they lied or withheld on the requested evidence they can earn jail time).

          If IH never asked in clear terms for any photographs then AR does not need to supply them but can put forward what he wants as part of his own evidence during this early phase.

          The disclosure phase allows each party to do some ‘fishing’ for suspected information or details. Under most circumstances, a litigant can’t later introduce undisclosed evidence (i.e can’t ‘bushwhack’ the other side). All accepted (by the presiding judge) evidence will be allowed to be put before the jury.

          During the disclosure phase, both sides can oppose particular forms of evidence as to its relevance or usefulness to the case. We have seen this in bucket loads in this disclosure phase.

          For the other part of disclosure, are the deposition hearings where people have to appear before the presiding judge & swear particular evidence. Again if a deposed person is shown to be lying they can earn jail time.

          IIRC Once the disclosures & depositions are done the jury can be selected. Another fun game.

          Doug

          • radvar

            Speculation: so, if the photos exist, and again, I have a hard time believing they do not, the only reason that I can see that IH did not ask for them is that they know the photos will greatly weaken their case (unravel Murray and Smith’s testimony, and create great credibility for Rossi). So they did not ask for them.

            And Rossi did not put them on the table because of trade secrets and holding aces.

            And IH knows Rossi has the photos, because they know Rossi.

  • Bruce__H

    The set of 4 pipes that go up and across the ceiling of the Doral facility seem to have been installed recently (because they don’t show in Murray’s Feb 2016 photos of the ceiling).

    Could these be the disassembled 2nd story heat exchanger? How long are they in total?

  • GiveADogABone

    The best way to condense steam to water is to evaporate some other water to vapour. Just remind me. What did the second Grundfos pump under the rickety stairs do? More lateral thinking perhaps and then recalculate?

    http://www.installationsclassees.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/Air-cooling-tower.html
    What is an air cooling tower?2 A wet air cooling tower is an “air/water” heat exchanger in which the water to be cooled is in direct contact with ambient air. The hot water is sprayed onto the upper part of the air cooling tower and streams onto the heat exchange body. The air circulates through the streaming system and is discharged into the atmosphere.

    **** Cooling mostly results from water evaporation; ****

    system efficiency is linked to the design and maintenance of the air cooling tower as well as atmospheric conditions (temperature and moisture).

  • doug marker

    This is just a thought. It may or may not have ‘legs’.
    But It is an interesting thought …

    An issue that IH may turn to is the current non-acceptance by science of LENR. If I read correctly Smith has already raised this as an argument.

    If I were AR, and were able to anticipate that this might be a reason IH would decline to accept the contract irrespective of how well the plant worked, I would design a very small unit that could be tested *and easily shown to work*, without the complexity of the plumbing and clearly complex calorimetry needed on larger models. We have already seen repeatedly how calorimetry crops up as the Achilles’s heel of proof for a LENR reactor. Someone is always able to ‘prove’ that a test just conducted had flawed calorimetry. The experts argue incessantly over any result.

    But, if I had such a working design (small design but with high COP and thus easy to demo unit), I would presently hold it back firstly in the hope a settlement might be reached with IH, but if the trial starts, would then carefully time an announcement of the small device by releasing several units for testing. The impact should be dramatic and quick. The calorimetry should be far easier to asses.

    Assuming such a device exists (and we know AR says it does as the Quark X), it should shatter any trial defence that LENR doesn’t work.

    Small units that can show COP of 50 or 200 or what ever, would have to have an influence on the trial. AR wants that $89M plus the recognition of the invention. This hypothesis as to his actions could be his most powerful way to get it.

    But, the Quark X could also be bluff.

    One counter point that is also lurking is if IH have other hidden reasons (that won’t be disclosed) for reneging on the $89M contract. It may relate to the usefulness of Rossi’s IP to them.

    Let the game roll on …

    D

  • GiveADogABone

    The IH ‘experts’ need every opportunity to make complete fools of themselves and put their foolishness into the court record. See 215: Plaintiffs Daubert Motion.

    The second pump is in the black box and you have not answered the question.

  • GiveADogABone

    Why would I?

  • Engineer48

    Here is some speculation on my part.

    Around the opening Rossi cut in the dry wall, which is between the metal stubs being 22 1/2 wide x 79 high (from Smith) is a very strong frame made from 4×4 or 100×100 timber which could carry a LOT of weight:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a057921b7c57fc3cbc4b27301088b65b06a98497df6a6f4abd3c0fbb1637cc5d.png

    Weight such as steam and condensate tubing and electrical cable supported by the heavy timber frame around the opening. An opening that aligns to the pathway that such piping would follow if it exited from the North / left side of the JM Black Box as Rossi claims.

    To the left of the opening there appears to be black marks on the dry wall which look like black hoses rubbing against the dry wall and moving about a bit.

    Also note the top of the dry wall opening seems to chaffed as if pipes / hoses / electrical cables were pressing against it and they moved around a bit, fraying the lower edge of the dry wall.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/404eb624d27f57708b686badba8fc3c3db0b380d852a2ed81b99a469bb6ca449.png

    OK for sure not PROOF but that opening has the size and strength to carry steam, condensate and wiring up from the JM Black Box, is in the correct location to do so and those pipes / hoses / electrical cables would be easily removed in probably less than 1 hour.

    ===================

    Just maybe the beige box and 4 pipes are NEW WORK and were not involved in the 1 year test. BTW I worked out the 4 pipes are in the same channel that includes the roof vent, so they probably do not enter the upper story but vent heat into the roof exhaugst fan inlet:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ada9af2977ad23772ac56eed21eecbfbc8198ba5a711acccd501803183398740.png

  • Engineer48

    Here is some speculation on my part.

    Around the opening Rossi cut in the dry wall, which is between the metal stubs being 22 1/2 wide x 79 high (from Smith) is a very strong frame made from 4×4 or 100×100 timber which could carry a LOT of weight:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a057921b7c57fc3cbc4b27301088b65b06a98497df6a6f4abd3c0fbb1637cc5d.png

    Weight such as steam and condensate tubing and electrical cable supported by the heavy timber frame around the opening. An opening that aligns to the pathway that such piping would follow if it exited from the North / left side of the JM Black Box as Rossi claims.

    To the left of the opening there appears to be black marks on the dry wall which look like black hoses rubbing against the dry wall and moving about a bit.

    Also note the top of the dry wall opening seems to chaffed as if pipes / hoses / electrical cables were pressing against it and they moved around a bit, fraying the lower edge of the dry wall.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/404eb624d27f57708b686badba8fc3c3db0b380d852a2ed81b99a469bb6ca449.png

    OK for sure not PROOF but that opening has the size and strength to carry steam, condensate and wiring up from the JM Black Box, is in the correct location to do so and those pipes / hoses / electrical cables would be easily removed in probably less than 1 hour.

    ===================

    Just maybe the beige box and 4 pipes are NEW WORK and were not involved in the 1 year test. BTW I worked out the 4 pipes are in the same channel that includes the roof vent, so they probably do not enter the upper story but vent heat into the roof exhaugst fan inlet:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ada9af2977ad23772ac56eed21eecbfbc8198ba5a711acccd501803183398740.png

    • Bruce__H

      Smith and Murray wondered about this route too. But in Smith’s supplementary report he provides a picture, taken the morning after the 1 year test finished, of the mezzanine door from the vantage point of someone standing beside the ecat plant (235-10, page 10. No such array of hoses and piping is visible.

  • Engineer48

    The upper story heat exchanger, a work of pure speculation but based on all the visible clues.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa50b15bc5ee5d357e42968ab5b06f9aefd054b286dded4e7d026d9f1522e059.png

    • GiveADogABone

      248-6 : Supplemental Expert Report of Rick Smith
      Mezzanine Heat Exchanger
      ‘The author believes that Mr. Rossi has stated that the pipes (6”nominal) from the black box to the mezzanine heat exchanger went through the door to the mezzanine.’

      • Engineer48

        Hi GADAB,

        I now believe the 4 pipes running up the North wall and across the ceiling are NEW installs and in the same space between the ceiling beams as is the roof top exhaust fan and that they terminate such that their heat discharge goes directly into the intake of the roof exhaust fan.

        For the upper story heat exchanger Rossi just ran them directly from the North wall of the Black Box, to the opening, supporting them on the 4×4 frame and then into the heat exchanger. So the opening is the only dry wall penetration needed to supply everything the heat exchanger needed.

        • GiveADogABone

          If the 4 pipes running up the North wall are new (post test) installs, then how did the steam get to the door frame during the test?

        • Stephen

          If you look at the beige box you can see what look like original holes covered in silver (insulation or foil) on th face of the box facing the “door”.

          I think these are either the original holes or used for fans to cool that box.

          Considering your comment above the former seems more likely.

  • Engineer48

    The upper story heat exchanger, a work of pure speculation but based on all the visible clues.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aa50b15bc5ee5d357e42968ab5b06f9aefd054b286dded4e7d026d9f1522e059.png

    • GiveADogABone

      248-6 : Supplemental Expert Report of Rick Smith
      Mezzanine Heat Exchanger
      ‘The author believes that Mr. Rossi has stated that the pipes (6”nominal) from the black box to the mezzanine heat exchanger went through the door to the mezzanine.’

      As an aside, the horizontal dog leg after the pipes rise from the black box is because of the thermal expansion issue IMHO. The dog leg is the flexibility bend to protect the pipework and door frame going into the room.

      • Engineer48

        Hi GADAB,

        I now believe the 4 pipes running up the North wall and across the ceiling are NEW installs and in the same space between the ceiling beams as is the roof top exhaust fan and that they terminate such that their heat discharge goes directly into the intake of the roof exhaust fan.

        For the upper story heat exchanger Rossi just ran them directly from the North wall of the Black Box, to the opening, supporting them on the 4×4 frame and then into the heat exchanger. So the opening is the only dry wall penetration needed to supply everything the heat exchanger needed.

        • GiveADogABone

          If the 4 pipes running up the North wall are new (post test) installs, then how did the steam get to the door frame during the test?

        • Stephen

          If you look at the beige box you can see what look like holes covered in silver (insulation or foil) on th face of the box facing the “door”.

          I think these are either the original holes or used for fans to cool that box.

          Considering your comment above the former seems more likely.

  • Engineer48

    Interesting comment posted on Rossi’s blog:
    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=225#comment-1275480

    ++++++++++++

    DT
    April 8, 2017 at 5:17 AM

    Dr Andrea Rossi:

    Surely you have realized that the “expertise” of Mr Smith, super-expert-consultant of IH in the litigation, is a fraud. It is totally based on two issues, both wrong:

    1- he says that a COP higher than 1 is against the principles of thermodynamic

    2- he says the pumps of the E-Cats had a flow rate of 36 liters per hour and gives evidence of this fact by a photo of the label of a Prominent pump installed on the E-Cat.

    As a matter of fact, the cases can only be two: either Mr Smith is not an expert, and in this case the issue is over, or he is giving voluntary false information in change of money. In fact, it is impossible that an expert ignores that:

    1- the thermodynamic principles must be applied to a specific system and in the case of the E-Cat the system is nuclear, not chemical, therefore it is possible that the COP is higher than one, because the chemical energy at the input induces nuclear energy: the three thermodynamic principles are fully respected because of the Einstein equation.

    2- the Prominent pump , as every pump, has a flow rate that is in function of the hydraulic pressure: Mr Smith has hidden to the readers the fact that in the same photo that he reports in his “expertise” is clearly written that the pressure is 2 Bar at the flow of 36 liters per hour !!! Obviously if the pressure is lower, the flow rate increases. I have personally used that model of Prominent pump and at a pressure of 0.2 Bars its flow rate is about 90 liters per hour. If we look well the photo of the pumps system of the E-Cat we can see that the pumps have to raise the water of few tens of centimeters, while 2 Bars correspond to 20 meters !!!! At a rate of 90 liters per hour, the maximum flow rate of all the pumps combined is well above the 1,600 liters per hour necessary to the E-Cat to reach a rate of about 1 MW.
    Not to mention other enormous errors, like for example the fact that the superheating of the steam must be made as he says: this guy does not even know how boilers work, or, most likely, lies in change of money.

    Besides, somebody has to explain to him that the steam at 103 Celsius at room P is dry by physics laws. Plus, in the documents published by the Court is clearly described that along the steam line there was a trap to check if water was contained in the steam.

    Mr Smith’s “expertise” is based upon his assumptions, with schematics he invented on the base of fake information, like the flow rate of the Prominent pumps.

    Conclusion: the “expertise” of Mr Smith is a bogus and Mr Smith is a person that exposes himself to ridiculous errors in change, as he himself writes, of about 300 $ per hour.

    If this is your foe, dear Andrea, you will destroy them also from the hospital, even if you remain asleep.

    From Russia, with love,
    DT

    ++++++++++++++++

    DT did make a few mistakes. The Prominent pump is rated at a MIN of 32 L/Hr at 2 barg and 36 L/Hr at 1 barg. He is correct that Smith should NOT have used the 2 barg back pressure flow rate to do his calculations. For a EXPERT, that is a major mistake, especially as most of the pumps were working at a negative back pressure thanks to the condensate head, which either Smith ignored or was not aware it existed. Both are not how an EXPERT works.

    DT’s claimed 90 L/HE at 0.2 barg is probably the max back pressure that any of the pumps would need to push against. If the 90 L/Hr figure is correct the the total flow from 24 pumps would be 2,160 L/Hr or 51,840 L/Day, well in excess of the necessary 36,000 L/Day.

    • GiveADogABone

      Frank has started a new thread for that.
      On the substantive issue expect another Daubert Motion.

  • Engineer48

    Interesting comment posted on Rossi’s blog:
    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=225#comment-1275480

    ++++++++++++

    DT
    April 8, 2017 at 5:17 AM

    Dr Andrea Rossi:

    Surely you have realized that the “expertise” of Mr Smith, super-expert-consultant of IH in the litigation, is a fraud. It is totally based on two issues, both wrong:

    1- he says that a COP higher than 1 is against the principles of thermodynamic

    2- he says the pumps of the E-Cats had a flow rate of 36 liters per hour and gives evidence of this fact by a photo of the label of a Prominent pump installed on the E-Cat.

    As a matter of fact, the cases can only be two: either Mr Smith is not an expert, and in this case the issue is over, or he is giving voluntary false information in change of money. In fact, it is impossible that an expert ignores that:

    1- the thermodynamic principles must be applied to a specific system and in the case of the E-Cat the system is nuclear, not chemical, therefore it is possible that the COP is higher than one, because the chemical energy at the input induces nuclear energy: the three thermodynamic principles are fully respected because of the Einstein equation.

    2- the Prominent pump , as every pump, has a flow rate that is in function of the hydraulic pressure: Mr Smith has hidden to the readers the fact that in the same photo that he reports in his “expertise” is clearly written that the pressure is 2 Bar at the flow of 36 liters per hour !!! Obviously if the pressure is lower, the flow rate increases. I have personally used that model of Prominent pump and at a pressure of 0.2 Bars its flow rate is about 90 liters per hour. If we look well the photo of the pumps system of the E-Cat we can see that the pumps have to raise the water of few tens of centimeters, while 2 Bars correspond to 20 meters !!!! At a rate of 90 liters per hour, the maximum flow rate of all the pumps combined is well above the 1,600 liters per hour necessary to the E-Cat to reach a rate of about 1 MW.
    Not to mention other enormous errors, like for example the fact that the superheating of the steam must be made as he says: this guy does not even know how boilers work, or, most likely, lies in change of money.

    Besides, somebody has to explain to him that the steam at 103 Celsius at room P is dry by physics laws. Plus, in the documents published by the Court is clearly described that along the steam line there was a trap to check if water was contained in the steam.

    Mr Smith’s “expertise” is based upon his assumptions, with schematics he invented on the base of fake information, like the flow rate of the Prominent pumps.

    Conclusion: the “expertise” of Mr Smith is a bogus and Mr Smith is a person that exposes himself to ridiculous errors in change, as he himself writes, of about 300 $ per hour.

    If this is your foe, dear Andrea, you will destroy them also from the hospital, even if you remain asleep.

    From Russia, with love,
    DT

    ++++++++++++++++

    DT did make a few mistakes. The Prominent pump is rated at a MIN of 32 L/Hr at 2 barg and 36 L/Hr at 1 barg. He is correct that Smith should NOT have used the 2 barg back pressure flow rate to do his calculations. For a EXPERT, that is a major mistake, especially as most of the pumps were working at a negative back pressure thanks to the condensate head, which either Smith ignored or was not aware it existed. Both are not how an EXPERT works.

    DT’s claimed 90 L/HE at 0.2 barg is probably the max back pressure that any of the pumps would need to push against. If the 90 L/Hr figure is correct the the total flow from 24 pumps would be 2,160 L/Hr or 51,840 L/Day, well in excess of the necessary 36,000 L/Day.

    • GiveADogABone

      Frank has started a new thread for that.

  • Engineer48

    One of Smith’s biggest failing is not understanding that as steam condenses inside the heat exchanger, it’s volume drops 1,600 times and creates a partial vacuum that would pull the 0.0 barg superheated steam into the heat exchanger.

    I was amazed when an EXPERT either ignored this fact of physics and heat exchangers or did not know how heat exchangers work and what happens to steam when it condenses out as water.

    It would appear Smith has never seen what happens when trapped steam condenses and it’s volume drops 1,600 times:
    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c0d_1377441595

    • GiveADogABone

      248-6 : Supplemental Expert Report of Rick Smith
      Water Flow Issues
      ‘As mentioned in the author’s first report, a proper steam flow meter should have been used ….

      … The author is absolutely unequivocal in his opinion that there could be no steam flow …’

      There is no apparent limit to this man’s engineering talent!

      His narrative is that there was no steam and no mezzanine heat exchanger, so why he needs a steam flow meter completely defeats me. Steam condensation and its consequences are not involved, at least according to RS.

      Of course, I am not completely blind to why he is doing this. IH need the COP down (a long,long way) and boiling water to steam at atmospheric pressure needs 2257 kJ/kg. The Daubert Motion on 248-6: has got to come.

      • Engineer48

        Hi GADAB,

        If he ever makes it to the witness box, I really feel sorry for Smith as he will get torn to shreds. Sure hope he got paid enough for the pain and loss of reputation he will endure.

        • GiveADogABone

          248-6 : Supplemental Expert Report of Rick Smith
          E-cat Steam superheaters
          ‘… all steam superheaters are pipes which take steam from the boiler drum and heat the steam externally to the boiler drum …

          … The construction of the BF units precludes the use of internal superheaters. All the heating elements of the BF units are submerged in water …’

          I guess a course on once-through boiler operation would be good but would be too late to rescue him from this idiocy.

    • Stephen

      Nice demo.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Stephen,

        Smith, Murray, Jed and a few others need to watch it and learn a bit about steam.

  • Engineer48

    One of Smith’s biggest failing is not understanding that as steam condenses inside the heat exchanger, it’s volume drops 1,600 times and creates a partial vacuum that would pull the 0.0 barg superheated steam into the heat exchanger.

    I was amazed when an EXPERT either ignored this fact of physics and heat exchangers or did not know how heat exchangers work and what happens to steam when it condenses out as water.

    It would appear Smith has never seen what happens when trapped steam condenses and it’s volume drops 1,600 times:
    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c0d_1377441595

    Cool video.

    BTW the Red Grundfos pump would produce enough vacuum to initially suck the 0.0 barg superheated steam from the ECat steam riser and into the primary of the heat exchanger in the JM Black Box, where it condenses, produces more vacuum and the Red Grondfos pump is maybe no longer needed, depending on the amount of condensate arriving from the upper story secondary heat exchanger.

    I really find it so difficult to understand why Smith does not know this about steam? Very strange.

    • GiveADogABone

      248-6 : Supplemental Expert Report of Rick Smith
      Water Flow Issues
      ‘As mentioned in the author’s first report, a proper steam flow meter should have been used ….

      … The author is absolutely unequivocal in his opinion that there could be no steam flow …’

      There is no apparent limit to this man’s engineering talent!

      His narrative is that there was no steam and no mezzanine heat exchanger, so why he needs a steam flow meter completely defeats me. Steam condensation and its consequences are not involved, at least according to RS.

      Of course, I am not completely blind to why he is doing this. IH need the COP down (a long,long way) and boiling water to steam at atmospheric pressure needs 2257 kJ/kg. The Daubert Motion on 248-6: has got to come.

      • Engineer48

        Hi GADAB,

        If he ever makes it to the witness box, I really feel sorry for Smith as he will get torn to shreds. Sure hope he got paid enough for the pain and loss of reputation he will endure.

        • GiveADogABone

          248-6 : Supplemental Expert Report of Rick Smith
          E-cat Steam superheaters
          ‘… all steam superheaters are pipes which take steam from the boiler drum and heat the steam externally to the boiler drum …

          … The construction of the BF units precludes the use of internal superheaters. All the heating elements of the BF units are submerged in water …’

          I guess a course on once-through boiler operation would be good but would be too late to rescue him from this idiocy.

          • GiveADogABone
          • HarryD

            The differences you might mean.
            For one there seems to be a mysterious energy internal energysource in the first boiler set-up because the steam escaping shows to get superheated after leaving the boiler 😉
            A superheated steam could leave the liquid if the liquid would be a salt brine for instance, but the schematic shows no superheated steam in drum.
            Furthermore I see different operating pressures and in operation see different effect of waterdrag…..

          • GiveADogABone

            HarryD
            Thanks for giving it a go. It helps to find out whether other folks find this difficult and why.

            My answer would be that the once-through boiler on the right has only one pipe from pump discharge to the boiler outlet.

            The drum boiler on the left is more complex and comes in three sections, economizer, evaporator and superheater. It has two pressure vessels in the evaporator section, the steam drum and the water drum and water spins around a circuit between them. A steam and water mixture rises up the fired tubes, discharges its steam in the steam drum and water falls in the unfired downcomer. This leads to the concept of the recirculation ratio; the number of times the water spins around before leaving the drum and heading off to the superheater.

            So the fundamental answer to the question is that there is no recirculation in a once-through boiler. It is implied in the name of course.

            People seem to have a tremendous problem grasping the idea that you can put cold water in one end of a single pipe and get superheated steam out of the other.

          • Engineer48

            Hi GADAB,

            Hold that thought:
            “People seem to have a tremendous problem grasping the idea that you can put cold water in one end of a single pipe and get superheated steam out of the other.”

            Not this Black Swan.
            See attached:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e8b492138ce819348040029aefa9677dcf5bd31a610fa99c18240da3fa26b607.png

          • GiveADogABone

            Seems SSM needs to be fed with boiling water and is a once-through boiler on two counts (no recirculation anywhere, except perhaps within the first stage).

          • Engineer48

            Hi GADAB,

            He is no expert on steam.

    • Stephen

      Nice demo.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Stephen,

        Smith, Murray, Jed and a few others need to watch it and learn a bit about steam.

  • Engineer48

    Interesting Google Street view analysis of the left side, from the front, upper story window panes.

    Here we have what I found from Google Street View:

    February 2014, clearly there are window panes:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/297a1635abdabe667eec8670d42a1f5dcd2d1cfa2ffe6bce018cee38baedcb8f.png

    April 2015, clearly there are no window panes but probably a fly screen to keep bugs and mossies out:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d2eaf327f14fea0a327ca368f085d8853f0f7772b7ce0d7fe02590cbba2d54cf.png

    June 2016, clearly the window panes are back:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bfd294a61e9da1db0467f0b07e3d92277a3db39e0c92803f0ca63b5c853ad87d.png

    • Josh G

      E48 I responded to you in the other thread, but I also want to add here another picture, where you can see from April 2015 that the window above the door also had the glass removed with screen over it. In fact you can see it much better by comparing it directly to the windows above the neighbor’s door to the right:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/af651fadfc7e011e48347e3500bf58838f2b513fa3cac7bfa5333210439fb55d.jpg

      This shows quite convincingly that not only had the middle windows been removed, but also the windows above the door. (And probably the third window behind the tree.)

  • Engineer48

    Interesting Google Street view analysis of the left side, from the front, upper story window panes.

    Here we have what I found from Google Street View:

    February 2014, clearly there are window panes:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/297a1635abdabe667eec8670d42a1f5dcd2d1cfa2ffe6bce018cee38baedcb8f.png

    April 2015, clearly there are no window panes but probably a fly screen to keep bugs and mossies out:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d2eaf327f14fea0a327ca368f085d8853f0f7772b7ce0d7fe02590cbba2d54cf.png

    June 2016, clearly the window panes are back:
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bfd294a61e9da1db0467f0b07e3d92277a3db39e0c92803f0ca63b5c853ad87d.png

    • Josh G

      E48 I responded to you in the other thread, but I also want to add here another picture, where you can see from April 2015 that the window above the door also had the glass removed with screen over it. In fact you can see it much better by comparing it directly to the windows above the neighbor’s door to the right:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/af651fadfc7e011e48347e3500bf58838f2b513fa3cac7bfa5333210439fb55d.jpg

      This shows quite convincingly that not only had the middle windows been removed, but also the windows above the door. (And probably the third window behind the tree.)

  • Engineer48

    Put the three window views together into a single image.

    Sure looks like in April 2015, there were no windows panes installed, but maybe a bug screen or sun cloth filter hanging behind the open windows to stop solar heating and bugs getting inside:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9c88907915364518c5b7d74a923acaa8a9276b319733e124110f42ad9b11d67e.png

    Waiting for Smith / IH to post images from the 4 corners of the JM Black Box, proving image 11 and 12 are joined together, images from the 4 corners of the upper story and images to show the ECat steam riser is connected to the internal condensate holding tank.

    Without those images, the Smith document is not worth the effort to burn it as it is all conjecture based on no hard evidence.

  • Engineer48

    Put the three window views together into a single image.

    Sure looks like in April 2015, there were no windows panes installed, but maybe a bug screen or sun cloth filter hanging behind the open windows to stop solar heating and bugs getting inside:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9c88907915364518c5b7d74a923acaa8a9276b319733e124110f42ad9b11d67e.png

    Waiting for Smith / IH to post images from the 4 corners of the JM Black Box, proving image 11 and 12 are joined together, images from the 4 corners of the upper story and images to show the ECat steam riser is connected to the internal condensate holding tank.

    Without those images, the Smith document is not worth the effort to burn it as it is all conjecture based on no hard evidence.

  • BillH

    It’s a big weakness in AR’s case that he can’t recall any of the ancillary workmen that were brought in to do work on the plant. Not only the workmen who are claimed to have built the heat exchanger but also those that did maintenance work, replacing resistors, installing new thermocouples and modifying plumbing. Some of these were even billed to IH. Much more effort should be made to locate these workers as they would lend credibility and may be able to testify as to what was on the top floor and what items they installed and the serial numbers of devices that where installed and when this happened.

    Time for an advert in the local Florida press?

    • Engineer48

      Hi Bill,

      I expect Rossi does not want nor need them to be drawn into this witch hunt by IH as he respects their privacy and is protecting them. Good on you Rossi!

      There is more than enough supportive hard evidence the upper story heat exchanger was there.

  • BillH

    It’s a big weakness in AR’s case that he can’t recall any of the ancillary workmen that were brought in to do work on the plant. Not only the workmen who are claimed to have built the heat exchanger but also those that did maintenance work, replacing resistors, installing new thermocouples and modifying plumbing. Some of these were even billed to IH. Much more effort should be made to locate these workers as they would lend credibility and may be able to testify as to what was on the top floor and what items they installed and the serial numbers of devices that where installed and when this happened.

    Time for an advert in the local Florida press?

    • Engineer48

      Hi Bill,

      I expect Rossi does not want nor need them to be drawn into this witch hunt by IH as he respects their privacy and is protecting them. Good on you Rossi!

      There is more than enough supportive hard evidence the upper story heat exchanger was there.

  • Engineer48
    • radvar

      Good eye…
      Interesting how pattern and data interact, when the thing being modeled is real.

  • Engineer48
  • Engineer48

    Hey Mats,

    Anything you need me to do some critical engineering analytical analysis of whatever, just ask and send me the data.

    • E48,

      THHuxleynew over on LENR Forum is trying to engage you in technical debate. Here is his latest response. Care to work through the issues together and reach a consensus?

      E48’s most recent summary of the flow issue is below. I am indebted to him for a simple and comprehensible summary of his views, with a great diagram. Coped from this ECW thread since they don’t seem to let you link posts.

      Notice that he agrees with me and can here that those pumps would have 40l/h max (with atmospheric output pressure) given the spec. This does not match the flowmeter rate so E48 needs to find some way to get extra liquid into the system. He supposes – extraordinarily – that the BF units are both pump fed and gravity fed! That would be really weird – the metering pump now has as a bypass a bit of tubing from input to output. No more metering! No-one in their right minds would put together such a system.

      E48 also argues that if the ecat units have a vent pipe which is lower than the top of the JMP condenser then condensate cannot be pumped into the heat exchanger. That is maybe true – but only if you accept his totally unevidenced and weird gravity feed in parallel with pumps system. And AFAIK we have no evidence of such a vent tube (I’m willing to be shown wrong though – it does not alter my case).

      One way to see why this system is such a stretch (and I guess e48 is finding it difficult to reconcile all the data, hence has to go for this) is that a pump with a bypass pipe from input to output does nothing. The water flow through the pump simply flows back through the bypass pipe. Of course depending on the relative pressures in the system not all of the pumped water would go through the bypass pipe – but a lot would.

      Another ball-breaker problem is the unused tiger issue. The gravity feeds through these unused cold tigers would remain and water would be sucked through these just as much as through the operational tigers. It just does not work.

      Finally there is the unbalanced pressure issue. Look at his diagram. All the BF units, at different heights, have water input, and steam output, connected together. In such a system the higher pressure at the bottom will mean that water will fill up the bottom units preferentially. Balancing this system so that all e-cats have the right level of water in is very difficult because the gravity feed bypasses the pumps and means you have no direct control over the amount of water that flow into each ecat.

      E48 is pretty well driven to suppose this setup because he takes the Rossi pressure readings at the e-cat output (incredibly uniform at exactly atmospheric) as true and has to explain them. In a pumped system, normally this pressure would be higher than atmospheric. In a condensate-vacuum-driven system – such as he proposes, with the Grundfoss pump used to keep the vacuum, normally this would vary – depending on the pump – certainly it would be a big coincidence for it to be exactly atmospheric. In both cases pressures would change would differeing flowrate (as we have from the Penon data). So because the pressure is so constant he needs to find some way to get this. He makes the ecat output stream forced to be at atmospheric pressure by a gravity feed connection.

      • Engineer48

        Each Tiger raw condensate flow from the gravity feed condensate pipe has a manually adjusted flow valve, the Yellow butterfly wings in these images.

        Any sharp eye can see them.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/52f4f09bb45e5399a06877820a79a4c22ad4bafd29d097816b7657f0f07d802e.png

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f6c917e0926b2a25a84bb080b6cd111ceca33e594f2e8880878b39818aa942d6.png

        • Bruce__H

          Hi Engineer,

          I would like you to reconsider the flow pattern you have indicated using blue lines and arrows in your bottom picture. According to that picture, at the lower left corner of the Tiger/BF units the flow turns 90 degrees and goes from horizontal (inside the white-lagged pipe) to vertical inside the unlagged pipe that rises vertically us beside the Tigers. I dispute this and contend that the horizontal lagged pipe and vertical pipe are not continuous at that corner.

          Here is a blowup of the bottom of the Tiger/BF assembly
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/dff191e1bf129d6af7394d2053c504d5167339326e3167c2e0caad36eecb4308.jpg
          And here is a further blowup showing the extreme left corner.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d823451005108ff061b1c55c973cb4c6a73697ee6d32082d0d79836253774745.jpg
          As you can see the lagged pipe does not connect with the vertical pipe. There is a block of wood there instead.

          Will you consider this evidence and does it change your mind about the flow pattern? You have said many times that you like to go by the photographic evidence and I think that is a good policy but it means nothing if you choose to ignore clear evidence when it is presented.

          • Stephen

            That’s an interesting observation. I missed that block of wood.

            It’s also interesting that that particular riser is not lagged where as the other ones noted by E48 are.

            I wonder if that pipe was used for filling, draining the Tiger units at the start and end of operations?

            Is the block of wood there in all the cofigurations we saw?

          • Bruce__H

            I think that the vertical pipe is for draining the Tiger/BF units, as you suggest.

            I’d be eager to see any pictures anyone has of this part of the setup.

      • Engineer48

        LenrG wrote:

        THHuxleynew over on LENR Forum is trying to engage you in technical debate. Here is his latest response. Care to work through the issues together and reach a consensus?

        Happy to engage him on this forum. I will not be splitting my limited time between two forums.

        Maybe you can sent him my best wishes and ask him to engage on ECW?

        • Hi E48 😉

          You already have an account there: https://www.lenr-forum.com/user/488-engineer48/

          • Engineer48

            Hi Barty,

            Have no time to spread myself over 2 forums. Suggest Frank would allow us to politely discuss THH’s issues here.

            My time is limited to maybe an hour a day during the week. Sunday I’m normally a bit less time dominated.

            Maybe you or someone else can post a summary of TTH’s issues with me so I can research them and provide a single reply?

  • Engineer48

    Hey Mats,

    Anything you need me to do some critical engineering analytical analysis of whatever, just ask and send me the data.

    • E48,

      THHuxleynew over on LENR Forum is trying to engage you in technical debate. Here is his latest response. Care to work through the issues together and reach a consensus?

      E48’s most recent summary of the flow issue is below. I am indebted to him for a simple and comprehensible summary of his views, with a great diagram. Coped from this ECW thread since they don’t seem to let you link posts.

      Notice that he agrees with me and can here that those pumps would have 40l/h max (with atmospheric output pressure) given the spec. This does not match the flowmeter rate so E48 needs to find some way to get extra liquid into the system. He supposes – extraordinarily – that the BF units are both pump fed and gravity fed! That would be really weird – the metering pump now has as a bypass a bit of tubing from input to output. No more metering! No-one in their right minds would put together such a system.

      E48 also argues that if the ecat units have a vent pipe which is lower than the top of the JMP condenser then condensate cannot be pumped into the heat exchanger. That is maybe true – but only if you accept his totally unevidenced and weird gravity feed in parallel with pumps system. And AFAIK we have no evidence of such a vent tube (I’m willing to be shown wrong though – it does not alter my case).

      One way to see why this system is such a stretch (and I guess e48 is finding it difficult to reconcile all the data, hence has to go for this) is that a pump with a bypass pipe from input to output does nothing. The water flow through the pump simply flows back through the bypass pipe. Of course depending on the relative pressures in the system not all of the pumped water would go through the bypass pipe – but a lot would.

      Another ball-breaker problem is the unused tiger issue. The gravity feeds through these unused cold tigers would remain and water would be sucked through these just as much as through the operational tigers. It just does not work.

      Finally there is the unbalanced pressure issue. Look at his diagram. All the BF units, at different heights, have water input, and steam output, connected together. In such a system the higher pressure at the bottom will mean that water will fill up the bottom units preferentially. Balancing this system so that all e-cats have the right level of water in is very difficult because the gravity feed bypasses the pumps and means you have no direct control over the amount of water that flow into each ecat.

      E48 is pretty well driven to suppose this setup because he takes the Rossi pressure readings at the e-cat output (incredibly uniform at exactly atmospheric) as true and has to explain them. In a pumped system, normally this pressure would be higher than atmospheric. In a condensate-vacuum-driven system – such as he proposes, with the Grundfoss pump used to keep the vacuum, normally this would vary – depending on the pump – certainly it would be a big coincidence for it to be exactly atmospheric. In both cases pressures would change would differeing flowrate (as we have from the Penon data). So because the pressure is so constant he needs to find some way to get this. He makes the ecat output stream forced to be at atmospheric pressure by a gravity feed connection.

      • Engineer48

        Each Tiger raw condensate flow from the gravity feed condensate pipe has a manually adjusted flow valve, the Yellow butterfly wings in these images.

        Any sharp eye can see them.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/52f4f09bb45e5399a06877820a79a4c22ad4bafd29d097816b7657f0f07d802e.png

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f6c917e0926b2a25a84bb080b6cd111ceca33e594f2e8880878b39818aa942d6.png

        • Bruce__H

          The photographic evidence is that the flow pattern you show in the bottom picture is incorrect. One of the photos that I pointed out to you in a previous post shows that the white lagged pipe at floor level does not connect with the vertical pipe on the left. So the path you have traced in blue is not possible.

          I am thinking that the vertical pipe is the drain for the Tiger/BF units. What do you think?

        • Bruce__H

          Hi Engineer,

          I would like you to reconsider the flow pattern you have indicated using blue lines and arrows in your bottom picture. According to that picture, at the lower left corner of the Tiger/BF units the flow turns 90 degrees and goes from horizontal (inside the white-lagged pipe) to vertical inside the unlagged pipe that rises vertically us beside the Tigers. I dispute this and contend that the horizontal lagged pipe and vertical pipe are not continuous at that corner.

          Here is a blowup of the bottom of the Tiger/BF assembly
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/dff191e1bf129d6af7394d2053c504d5167339326e3167c2e0caad36eecb4308.jpg
          And here is a further blowup showing the extreme left corner.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d823451005108ff061b1c55c973cb4c6a73697ee6d32082d0d79836253774745.jpg
          As you can see the lagged pipe does not connect with the vertical pipe. There is a block of wood there instead.

          Will you consider this evidence and does it change your mind about the flow pattern? You have said many times that you like to go by the photographic evidence and I think that is a good policy but it means nothing if you choose to ignore clear evidence when it is presented.

          • Stephen

            That’s an interesting observation. I missed that block of wood.

            It’s also interesting that that particular riser is not lagged where as the other ones noted by E48 are.

            I wonder if that pipe was used for filling, draining the Tiger units at the start and end of operations?

            Is the block of wood there in all the configurations we saw? Or just one of them? I do wonder if the pipe was connected but disconnected during draining or something? It’s not clear if it’s there in the picture above from E48.

          • Bruce__H

            I think that the vertical pipe is for draining the Tiger/BF units, as you suggest.

            I’d be eager to see any pictures anyone has of this part of the setup.

      • Engineer48

        LenrG wrote:

        +++++++++++++++++++++++

        “THHuxleynew over on LENR Forum is trying to engage you in technical debate. Here is his latest response. Care to work through the issues together and reach a consensus?”

        +++++++++++++++++++++++

        Happy to engage him on this forum. I will not be splitting my limited time between two forums.

        Maybe you can sent him my best wishes and ask him to engage on ECW?

        • He reads here. He’ll see this, but I think he’s either totally banned here or many of his posts don’t make it through moderation.

        • Hi E48 😉

          You already have an account there: https://www.lenr-forum.com/user/488-engineer48/

          THH was banned here at ECW. That’s why he asks you to communicate with him at LF.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Barty,

            Have no time to spread myself over 2 forums. Suggest Frank would allow us to politely discuss THH’s issues here.

            My time is limited to maybe an hour a day during the week. Sunday I’m normally a bit less time dominated.

            Maybe you or someone else can post a summary of TTH’s issues with me so I can research them and provide a single reply?

  • Engineer48

    Here are the guys that removed and replaced the glass panes in the upper story windows:
    http://highserviceglassfl.com/

    305-231-4897
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7001d2295e1ad821ea5ee938c7a3134316b0a94b1badac5b1070bfcc652ceaac.png

    • BillH

      OK, I’ll bite, someone in Florida phone them up and ask them when they took the glass out and then when they put it back in. With any luck they will remember seeing the heat exchanger when they took the glass out, as surely it would be there before the glass was taken out, as it took 16 days or more to install it, allegedly.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bill,

        Photo was taken by Dr. Wong who stated there was no heat exchanger present when he took this photo but he did state for the record that there were FOUR HOLES in the outer wall.

        Just maybe the glass guys saw some hardware when they removed the glass panes but maybe not.

      • Obvious

        It was a week short of a year after the Plant was shut down that Wong and the window guys were there.
        Feb 10, 2017

        • Josh G

          Yeah, it’s suspiciously convenient that the window was being replaced on the same day at the same time as Wong’s visit a year after the test ended. Could be “just a coincidence” but it really stretches credulity. I say call them up and ask them if they arrived and some Italian guy paid them to remove four panes of glass then wait around for some Chinese dude to take pictures of the empty window before they replaced the glass panes.

          Also note that according to Smith’s picture from November 2015, only the two panes on the right-hand side of Wong’s picture were removed, so there was no apparent need to replace all four of them.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            Glad you spotted the Smith window photo shows 2 panes missing.

            Yet Smith made no comment on that. You find that strange?

            Rossi could have had all 4 panes removed and maybe the 6 over the door. Then fitted some in place as the weather cooled down or a storm approached. Simple to have the panes stacked against the wall for an easy fit & secure with a few pieces of duck tape. Pure speculation on my part but if I ran the upper story heat exchanger, I would see benefit in having the panes handy.

          • Josh G

            Yes, I do find that strange. There is a poster at LENR forum who appears to be suggesting that the google streetview photo was doctored after the fact and then presumably inserted into the google maps database for all to find. I don’t think we can rule it out with 100% certainty, but it strikes me as far-fetched. Likewise your explanation of window panes constantly being removed and replaced stretches credulity.

            Look, I have been a longtime believer in Rossi. Here is a post of mine from last year soon after the lawsuit was filed: http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/26/cutting-through-the-fog-surrounding-the-rossiih-dispute-josh-g/

            I’m not an IH shill. But nor am I such a die-hard Rossi believer that I am unwilling to face up to the evidence. And in my view this google streetview evidence is devastating to Rossi’s claims and credibility. It’s like a dagger in the heart of his lawsuit.

            I don’t know how to explain it away without resorting to rather far-fetched and highly implausible (yet still remotely possible) theories. But then I would have to admit to myself that I am clinging to that belief purely out of faith in Rossi. But from what I’ve read from Rossi’s depositions, especially with regard to JM Products, gives me the distinct feeling that he does not deserve that much faith. I am still open to hearing further evidence, but at this point I no longer believe Rossi.

            I asked Bob Higgins from MFMP this question: if Rossi does not have what he claims, then why to believe that the dogbone-type reactor works at all? (Bob is currently working on dogbone-type reactor tests.) He said that in his view there has been enough evidence from Parkhomov and me356 that these reactors can be made to work. In fact, he was the one on MFMP who figured out the emissivity problem in the Lugano test, and yet he said even after that there was still evidence of excess heat. So in his view this is a promising technology that can produce excess heat, even if Rossi cheated on the 1MW test.

          • radvar

            “It’s like a dagger in the heart”.
            Pretty strong, attention-getting language, and a strong conclusion, for a series of posts based on circumstantial, uncorroborated evidence, that would suggest that Rossi went to all that effort to commit fraud, and made a mistake on the windows.
            Since you have chosen to arouse strong emotion, perhaps you could balance that by recapitulating your reasoning in a single post that would justify your conclusion.

          • Josh G

            There has been a lot of talk about the setup of the e-cat plant and the JM Products apparatus. IH supporters argue one thing; Rossi supporters argue something else. It is difficult to assess the claims being made without an extensive background in many of the specific engineering and technical issues that have been brought up. It seems that facts can be cherry picked to support both sides. So there is a lot of fog on this issue.

            One of the key questions has been the venting of the unused portion of the 1MW of heat. Even Rossi has admitted this is an issue, but said he installed a heat exchanger in the 2nd floor mezzanine to dissipate the heat. Problem is: there is almost no evidence (that we’ve been privy to) that this heat exchanger ever existed.

            Rossi said that he removed the window panes in one of the 2nd floor windows in order to vent the heat with a fan. His expert witness, Wong, came to the site in February 2017 and took some pictures of the mezzanine area, including the window that Rossi said he used. When Wong visited, the glass panes were missing. There were some workmen there who were replacing the window, according to Rossi.

            So, Rossi claims there was a heat exchanger. IH says: there is a lack of evidence that the heat exchanger ever existed. But a lack of evidence is not the same as the existence of evidence that the heat exchanger never existed.

            So the fact that there is a google images picture from April 2015 where that window can clearly be seen to be covered in glass during the test means that no heat could have been vented out. Which means even if a heat exchanger existed, Rossi couldn’t have been using it to vent heat out of the mezzanine window at that time, because that window was sealed closed! That one picture cuts through the fog like a sharp knife.

            E48 says that maybe Rossi had the panes taped up and was removing and replacing them as necessary according to the weather and venting needs. There are at least three problems with that, beyond the fact that it’s a bit far-fetched:

            1. Why do we see a picture where all the window panes are in place? Did he not need to vent ANY heat at that moment?

            2. E48 says that in one of the pictures taken (on the same day) in April, some of the panes had been removed, but then a few hours later they were all taped up again. But Rossi worked the night shift; he wasn’t there during the day. So he couldn’t have been there to tape up the panes. It makes no sense.

            3. I haven’t seen anywhere in Rossi’s depositions where he says that he was taping up the panes and taking them down as needed. This seems like an important detail. We are given the distinct impression that they were open during the entire test.

          • Obvious

            No visitor to the Doral location has ever remarked on a loud fan blowing air out of the window only a few meters from the front door.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Obvious,

          Rossi did say he was putting offices in the upper story, so he would need to replace the window panes that were removed.

          What we don’t know is when they were removed.

          That at least those 4 panes in the central window group were removed is now a known fact, as is when they were replaced, 10 Feb 2017.

          • Obvious

            There is certainly glass in the window in the July 2016 Google images. So the glass must have been removed between July 2016 and Feb 10, 2017.

    • Stephen

      Well it’s interesting they needed two vans. How many vans do you need to being 4 panes of glass. It seems to me they were replacing the glass in all the windows.

      That said they could have been updating whatever was there to double glazing or something as well.

      Would a fan fill the whole window frame or just part of it?

  • Engineer48

    Here are the guys that removed and replaced the glass panes in the upper story windows:
    http://highserviceglassfl.com/

    305-231-4897
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7001d2295e1ad821ea5ee938c7a3134316b0a94b1badac5b1070bfcc652ceaac.png

    • BillH

      OK, I’ll bite, someone in Florida phone them up and ask them when they took the glass out and then when they put it back in. With any luck they will remember seeing the heat exchanger when they took the glass out, as surely it would be there before the glass was taken out, as it took 16 days or more to install it, allegedly.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bill,

        Photo was taken by Dr. Wong who stated there was no heat exchanger present when he took this photo but he did state for the record that there were FOUR HOLES in the outer wall.

        Just maybe the glass guys saw some hardware when they removed the glass panes but maybe not.

      • Obvious

        It was a week short of a year after the Plant was shut down that Wong and the window guys were there.
        Feb 10, 2017

        • Josh G

          Yeah, it’s suspiciously convenient that the window was being replaced on the same day at the same time as Wong’s visit a year after the test ended. Could be “just a coincidence” but it really stretches credulity. I say call them up and ask them if they arrived and some Italian guy paid them to remove four panes of glass then wait around for some Chinese dude to take pictures of the empty window before they replaced the glass panes.

          Also note that according to Smith’s picture from November 2015, only the two panes on the right-hand side of Wong’s picture were removed, so there was no apparent need to replace all four of them.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            Glad you spotted the Smith window photo shows 2 panes missing.

            Yet Smith made no comment on that. You find that strange?

            Rossi could have had all 4 panes removed and maybe the 6 over the door. Then fitted some in place as the weather cooled down or a storm approached. Simple to have the panes stacked against the wall for an easy fit & secure with a few pieces of duck tape. Pure speculation on my part but if I ran the upper story heat exchanger, I would see benefit in having the panes handy.

          • Josh G

            Yes, I do find that strange. There is a poster at LENR forum who appears to be suggesting that the google streetview photo was doctored after the fact and then presumably inserted into the google maps database for all to find. I don’t think we can rule it out with 100% certainty, but it strikes me as far-fetched. Likewise your explanation of window panes constantly being removed and replaced stretches credulity.

            Look, I have been a longtime believer in Rossi. Here is a post of mine from last year soon after the lawsuit was filed: http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/26/cutting-through-the-fog-surrounding-the-rossiih-dispute-josh-g/

            I’m not an IH shill. But nor am I such a die-hard Rossi believer that I am unwilling to face up to the evidence. And in my view this google streetview evidence is devastating to Rossi’s claims and credibility. It’s like a dagger in the heart of his lawsuit.

            I don’t know how to explain it away without resorting to rather far-fetched and highly implausible (yet still remotely possible) theories. But then I would have to admit to myself that I am clinging to that belief purely out of faith in Rossi. But from what I’ve read from Rossi’s depositions, especially with regard to JM Products, gives me the distinct feeling that he does not deserve that much faith. I am still open to hearing further evidence, but at this point I no longer believe Rossi.

            I asked Bob Higgins from MFMP this question: if Rossi does not have what he claims, then why to believe that the dogbone-type reactor works at all? (Bob is currently working on dogbone-type reactor tests.) He said that in his view there has been enough evidence from Parkhomov and me356 that these reactors can be made to work. In fact, he was the one on MFMP who figured out the emissivity problem in the Lugano test, and yet he said even after that there was still evidence of excess heat. So in his view this is a promising technology that can produce excess heat, even if Rossi cheated on the 1MW test.

          • Obvious

            No visitor to the Doral location has ever remarked on a loud fan blowing air out of the window only a few meters from the front door.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Obvious,

          Rossi did say he was putting offices in the upper story, so he would need to replace the window panes that were removed.

          What we don’t know is when they were removed.

          That at least those 4 panes in the central window group were removed is now a known fact, as is when they were replaced, 10 Feb 2017.

          • Obvious

            There is certainly glass in the window in the July 2016 Google images. So the glass must have been removed between July 2016 and Feb 10, 2017.

    • Stephen

      Well it’s interesting they needed two vans. How many vans do you need to being 4 panes of glass. It seems to me they were replacing the glass in all the windows.

      That said they could have been updating whatever was there to double glazing or something as well.

      Would a fan fill the whole window frame or just part of it?

  • Engineer48

    I’m back at work and very busy, so I’ll struggle to keep up with happening in this place.

    As a closing offering, I present the words and pictures taken by Dr. Wong about what he called FOUR HOLES in the outer wall with a picture he took of the FOUR missing window panes in question.

    Here I do note Dr. Wong is a hired expert witness, that visited the upper floor, took photos and reported on what he saw.

    For me it is VERY CLEAR that at the time Dr. Wong visited the upper story, there was no glass panes in the window frame but instead the four holes as observed and reported by Dr. Wong

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3dda2d971889916d06ac18b88fd718729db4ca1d59e98147d149991c2a62e5c5.png

    Of course that is not proof the window panes were missing during the 1 year test and no proof that a heat exchanger operated in the upper story space.

    What Dr. Wong stated does however support the possibility that those window panes were missing and from the glass truck seen through the window opening, that they were in the process of being replaced. At least we do know a glass company attended the site to do some work on the windows.

    So I throw into the snake pit of counter claims about the window panes, the words and images from Dr. Wong and the existence of the glass trucks and workmen.

    • Josh G
      • Andreas Moraitis

        I think that’s not the same window as in Wong’s exhibit. According to AR it was the middle window (here covered by a tree) whose panes had been removed. (The question remains what “middle” means if there are four windows in a row.)

        • Obvious

          Each unit has three sets of windows in front, on the upper floor. One six pane over the entrance, and two sets of four pane windows.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious and others,

            Dr. Wong clearly states there were four holes in the window frame he photographed. Ie no glass.

            So we know that when Dr. Wong visited the upper story, the window unit he photographed had no glass in it.

            There is no debate on his statement, unless you are saying he lied under oath.

            Need to ask yourself why would Rossi remove those 4 window panes?

            As for Google, if I go there not using the supplied link, I can’t find the image from 2015 showing the reflections.

          • Obvious

            The road traffic goes in two directions.

            When Wong visited the mezzanine a year after the test and photographed it there was no heat exchanger and some guys were replacing window glass.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Which is what I said.

            So we know the window panes were missing. What we don’t know is when they were removed.

        • Josh G

          No, this has already been settled. That is the middle window. In Wong’s picture, there is a window on the left side. That is the window over the door. And you can tell that because the floor there extends out over the entrance way. The window that Wong photographed is the window next to the window above the door (i.e., the middle window). That is the one in this picture. The window with the tree would be to the right of Wong’s photo, out of view.

        • Engineer48

          Hi AM,

          Dr.Wong’s image is of the middle of the 3 sets of windows in the West facing wall of the upper story.

          Look at where the glass guys truck is parked as a guide to which of the 3 window groups Dr. Wong photographed.

        • Engineer48

          Hi AM,

          The window panes covered by the tree is the Northern most windows of a set of 3 window groups.

          Dr.Wong photographed the middle set of windows and claimed they were holes, ie on panes installed.

          • Stephen

            I’m curious if this brightened image makes any sense to you guys?

            Are these features digital artifacts or real things in the window?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2b2f67b33e9f632852171b5d65227b6af1d444b90fac6bcd132b233740da1c96.jpg

          • Josh G

            I really don’t know, but I don’t think artifacts can be ruled out. The bottom ones look more like artifacts than the top ones.

          • Stephen

            Yup I did wonder if the bottom one was some kind of block coding artifact and it’s difficult to discount that possibility.

            On the other hand it is very regular in shape and symetric. Which is curious. It is also placed right in the middle at the bottom of the window pane. Which seems an odd coincidence for an artifact.

            I wonder if it could be some kind of sensor (perhaps to measure temperature of the air flow?) or even some kind of box for a window fan (the small box in the center could be consistent with that if it was the fan hub) It would be about 50cm x 30cm I think.

            The top one really looks like a pipe to me… but could be a coincidence at this resolution.

          • Josh G

            Could be, I suppose, but it’s really too hard to say. Seems like grasping at straws. But I guess that’s all we’ve got left at this point…

          • Stephen

            Yup unfortunately for us very true.

            Nothing clear has been deliberately released yet which is curious. I suppose both sides have clear real data but haven’t released it yet. I suppose it’s because they want it resolved formally in court and not in the blogs. Which I can also fully understand and respect.

            I suspect neither side expected the requests for summary judgement to succeed so maybe their dispositions reflect that.

            Unfortunately for us this means we only have glimpses of possible data that may fall between the cracks.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Josh.

        If you go to Google Maps using just the address, click on the April 2015 archived images, that image with the reflections can’t be found. What can be found is the no reflection images.

        I suggest there is a Google database error and the directly linked image has an incorrect date.

        • Josh G

          Honestly, I would love for you to be right. But I don’t think so. It’s true that if you plunk down the street view man into maps after searching for that address, you get the view from the near side of the street. It is the default view. However, if you plunk down the street view man up the street and around the corner onto “Geneva NW 48th Way” then turn the corner onto NW 79th Ave, you will get the view from the far side of the street. I know this because I just did it to see if I could get that view somehow without the link provided by a poster at LENR Forum, and it worked. (Be sure not to click too far into the street or you might switch to the default view.)

          Also, you will note that in the default view there is some kind of roadwork going on with rust-colored water stains dotting the sidewalk and orange-and-white road signs set up on the road.

          In the new view from the far side of the street, the road workers are gone but the water stains are still there and the road signs are laid down on the grass. Also, the grass looks the same in that view (mostly brownish with large patches missing) as in the default April 2015 view. Both of them look the same, and they both look a lot different than the pictures from 2016 and 2014.

          So it looks to me like the picture was most likely taken later the same day as the google car made a second pass in the opposite direction.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            Followed your instructions and yes I can see the posted image from April 2015 with reflections in the middle set of window panes.

            Good work.

            BTW I form opinion based on the evidence I see in the photographs. This new loadable image set from the West side / South flowing traffic side of the street now clearly shows that window panes were there when the Google camera car passed by.

            However other Google camera car images suggest that when they took their images, there were missing panes. Sometime in the central group and sometime in the Southern most group of 6 panes.

            I do note that in the image Dr.Wang took, there were also boarded up panes in the 6 pane window group over the entry. Based on the reflections and floor shadows, at least 2 of the bottom 3 panes were boarded up with wooden panels and duct tape.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/97af38303e0165fa2cd2732b10c8d4041f20e3167354437bf24cfbcbaca8ce9e.png

          • Josh G

            Good catch on the boarded-up window. I wish there were something in the Rossi depositions that would corroborate your speculation. I haven’t seen it, but I suppose it’s possible.

            As for your point that “other Google camera car images suggest that when they took their images, there were missing panes:”

            The Google camera car appears to have passed by that spot only twice during the test, both times in April 2015. We are agreed that when it passed by on the far side of the road, the panes were covered with glass.

            If we take the orange-and-white road signs as a clue, it is probably that the pictures from the near and far side of the road were taken on the same day. In fact this makes sense even without the road signs, but they provide a stronger clue that this is the same day.

            Now, judging by the position of the sun in the sky, we can see that the sun is higher in the horizon in the East when the google car is on the near side driving North than when it is on the far side driving South than. But it is not THAT much higher in the sky. I would say there is probably a 2-3 hour difference at most.

            What this tells us is that the picture from the far side (with the reflections) was taken earlier in the morning (rush hour traffic) and that the picture from the near side was taken later in the morning, closer to noon.

            Previously I speculated that the far-side picture was taken later in the day, after the road work had finished. But that was before I checked the orientation and the sun positions. Now it seems to me that the road signs were left there for the workers who would come later (perhaps they were left by a different crew; perhaps they were left over from the previous day; hard to know but it doesn’t much matter).

            So as I see it there are really two options here:

            1. All of the panes were in place in the morning when the car made its first pass. But then the panes in the windows were removed by the time the car made its second pass early in the morning. (I say all the panes because you can also see reflections in the window above the door when the car made its first pass.)

            So even if Rossi was removing panes to adjust to the weather, we would still need know why he had all the panes up when the car made its first pass. The system should still have been producing 1MW of heat at that point, and I don’t see any reason to think that Rossi went up there to open up the windows every time he need to vent the heat.

            2. Alternatively, the pictures from the second pass later in the morning do not show a reflection simply due to the angle of the camera, the sun, etc. Many of the pictures of other windows along the Doral building from that second pass also do not show reflections. This has been argued by others here and on LENR-forum. It is hard to say either way, but if nothing else it seems clear that the absence of glass does not follow necessarily from the absence of a reflection.

            But even if it’s true that the lack of reflection means the window panes that had been taped in place earlier had been removed after the google car made its first pass, we would still need an answer to the question of why Rossi had all the window panes taped in place in the morning (although we don’t see any evidence of duct tape along the edges).

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            Who can tell?

            What we do know is there were panes removed and from the Google images, panes reinserted and from Dr. Wong’s image, some panes boarded up.

            Even Smith’s image shows some panes removed and some in place.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/30d5e1a41f18377d17f8b7bd17ea63ebecb481c3123ce8b5a33f7d0e6535e66f.png

            What can be determined was panes were removed and replaced. When removed and replaced is not possible to determine.

            Question to ask is why would window panes be removed if there was not a need to ventilate the room?

            I suggest what we see supports Rossi’s version of events more than Smith’s.

          • Josh G

            I don’t think lack of reflection necessarily means the glass panes were removed. So other than Wong, we don’t have very good evidence that any panes were removed at any time. We have some evidence, but I don’t think it’s very good. In the picture you just linked to from Smith’s supplemental report, the lower left pane above the window might not be reflective simply because the sunlight is fully blocked/shaded by some object. And this kind of makes sense if you look at the shadows in the panes above it and to the right. So the same sort of thing could also explain why the panes on the left in Smith’s picture are dark — there could be a tree that is shading them.

            You see a pane without a reflection as a sign of no glass, but in light of all the evidence I’m not as willing to make that same inferential leap. It *could* mean no glass, but it could just as easily (and arguably more plausibly) mean there is glass with no reflection for a variety of different highly plausible reasons.

            So all in all, I’d say the evidence in favor of Rossi on this is weaker than the evidence in favor of IH. But we can agree to disagree. I respect the thoughtfulness, experience and expertise you have brought to the discussion of Rossi’s set-up.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            Reflection has nothing to do with the sun angle.

            What we see in reflection is the reverse of the angle from the camera lens to the pane. Imagine a laser from the lens to the pane and then reflecting off the pane. What that laser would strike after bouncing off the window pane is what we would see as a reflection.

            If there was glass in those darkened windows, you would see a reflection.

            Have solar panel on the roof and so do neighbours. Looking out and down from my upper floor office window I see a constant reflection to the nearby hills from their solar panels. Sometime if the sun is at just the wrong spot, just as it rises over the hills, the sun reflects into my office. However the spot I see in the hills and that is reflected off the solar panels never changes as the angles are fixed.

          • Josh G

            If the sun is behind the object that is being reflected, then the ‘reflection’ that is cast will be the shadow or dark silhouette of the object. If the shadow/silhouette takes up the entire area of the glass pane, then the reflection will look like a non-reflection because it is dark.

            That is what I think is going on in the lower left pane of the windows above the door in Smith’s picture. You can see that there are shadows/silhouettes of the trees in the panes just above and to the right of that lower left pane. Their shape is apparent because the sun is shining around their edges and is reflected in the glass. But you could imagine that if those shapes filled up the entire pane, you would not really see the reflection due to the shadow/silhouette being so dark.

            On top of that, if you take a virtual tour along the lenght of the building using google streetview, you will see many windows of many other offices without an apparent reflection. I don’t think all of those windows also had the glass removed. In other words, there are other equally plausible explanations for no apparent reflection.

            So allow me to restate: lack of an apparent/obvious reflection does not necessarily imply lack of glass.

          • Adam Lepczak

            there is also google’s competitor bing maps:
            They feature a similar technology. Perhaps their db will shine more light?
            https://www.bing.com/maps/

          • Josh G

            They’ve been looking at BING images over at LENR Forum. I think they’re pretty much worthless because they don’t have any images taken during the test; only before and after. In both cases they show glass intact, including the after picture which was after the test but before Wong came to inspect and took his pictures showing no panes. So we also have evidence that there was glass intact after the test and before Wong. That still tells us nothing about what was going on during the test, which is crucial.

          • Josh G

            E48, I just updated my previous response to you because I realized I got North and South mixed up. The near-side picture from April 2015 was taken early afternoon; the far-side picture was taken in evening rush hour traffic. It doesn’t change the basic argument, but it did make me realize another problem with the ‘moveable panes’ theory: Rossi said he worked the night shift, arriving at night and leaving in the morning. In that case, we need an answer to another important question: who would have been switching the panes during the daytime if not Rossi?

            The only person might have been the guy he hired to help in on the JMP side, but I don’t think Rossi delegated to him the authority to regulate the alleged heat exchanger, which would have meant regulating whatever process Rossi had going on over there. And in fact his depositions bear this out.

      • Guru Khalsa

        If you click on the link above and close the little pop up window on the top lefthand corner, then click in the center of where the pop up window used to be, the date changes to July 2016, Wierd huh?

        • Guru Khalsa

          Not only that but there are now 3 trees in the way. So in 15 months somebody planted 3 mature trees. Usually when they plant new palm trees they trim the palm fronds severly. They must be putting something special in that soil to make that tree to go from having a mohawk to growing a beard in such a short time.

          • Guru Khalsa
          • Guru Khalsa

            Wow isn’t street view great you can make it say whatever you want it to say.

          • Josh G

            I’m sorry but I don’t see which three trees you are talking about. Perhaps you can specify? Or take a screenshot and draw in some arrows?

          • Guru Khalsa

            On further review I have to admit both this pic: https://www.google.com/maps/@25.8160501,-80.3255209,3a,30y,84.4h,88.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGKYDmtLsLf-BBgAw_rUa4Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

            and this one: https://www.google.com/maps/@25.8160501,-80.3255209,3a,30y,84.4h,88.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGKYDmtLsLf-BBgAw_rUa4Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en were both taken at the same time. The trees are the same the perspective is different. Maybe wishful thinking on my part that there was an inconsistancy between pictures.

            Though I thought Rossi said the heat exchanger was on the window that was behind the trees, so that would not be the window with cloud reflection but maybe the one to the left of it obscured by trees. There was a picture of a window being replaced uploaded here but we don’t know if other windows were also being replace and I have not heard evidence as to which window it was that had the heat exchanger attached.

          • Obvious

            Regarding Discus, I was/am having much trouble from my PC. I thought I was banned or blocked (and maybe I am?) last week. I was getting pushed to a blank Discus page when trying to post.

          • cashmemorz

            Also having trouble posting. After about ten fifteen words, input ineffective. THen I go to notepad write my post there copy from notepad and paste in the blog, works

          • Obvious

            My pad seems to have no problem with posting. Maybe a browser update is due on the PC.

          • Josh G

            No shame in that. It’s confusing stuff.

            Rossi’s deposition is very clear that it is that window (in the middle one between the tree and the entrance) and only that window where the heat from the exchanger was vented.

            Engineer48 has a theory that Rossi taped up the glass panes and opened them up as needed. I find that very far fetched.

          • Guru Khalsa

            I am having trouble finding all of Rossi’s deposition on Eric Walker’s google drive. I only see a few pages of it. Would you be so kind as to send me a link to the Rossi testimony you are refering to?

          • Josh G

            I can’t find it. The problem is that with all these motions they only give us snippets from the depositions but not the entire thing in most cases. But here is a great resource that lists all the court documents with a brief description and direct links. If you go through all the Rossi depositions I’m sure you’ll find it. Wong also talks about it. This has been settled some time ago. Engineer48 also agrees about this. But I admire your desire to check the facts for yourself:

            http://coldfusioncommunity.net/rossi-v-darden-docket-and-case-files/

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            I don’t recall Rossi stating which windows the heat exited.

            From my layout, it seems logical the heat exited through the windows behind the tree as the tree would block the West sun from entering the upper story.

          • Josh G

            Ah well in another comment you agreed with me that it was the middle window. Anyway it doesn’t matter what seems logical, because it was identified clearly and unambiguously in both Wong and Rossi’s depositions.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            Dr. Wong did not state through which windows the heat exited. Please read what he actually said.

            Rossi never directly said the heat exited through the middle windows. The IH lawyer asked Rossi a leading question, saying the middle windows.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            And by saying „middle“ he could have referred to the front view. So it might have been one of the inner windows in the row of four, most likely the second one from the right.

          • Engineer48

            Hi AM,

            I was clearly a leading question from the IH lawyer team. Stock in trade stuff for lawyers to try to slip in a misleading statement to the person being questioned statement.

            I’m surprised that Rossi’s council allowed the question in that form.

          • Goodrice
          • Goodrice

            The Window indicated here would be the central one of the three.

            Sources for the above composite image:
            http://coldfusioncommunity.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0197.01_Exhibit_1.pdf
            http://coldfusioncommunity.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0235.08_Exhibit_8.pdf

          • Engineer48

            Hi Goodrice,

            Rossi could have been confused as the image only showed 2 of the 3 windows and Rossi may have thought the workmen, shown at the right most windows of the image, were actually at the window further to the right.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/634cfc4e70a9d1993ed7515d3c7a1b9dfc3827d3b5b642befdff03b5c879fd20.png

            The markings on the floor suggest a shape approx 6 x 6 mtrs, while the heat exchanger was 1 x 6.5 x 10 mtr.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e3e74f55eae4d59daba7dd56972bc60b186dd384a75201165c4902e13b1f5cf9.png

          • Goodrice

            I don’t think he got confused about that. This is what Rossi also added; it’s in the composite image I posted above by the way:

            […] In any case, yes, I think so. Because this window is equal to another — there are three windows basically. Yes, three windows there are and we used for this purpose the central one.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Goodrice,

            May I know the document number you are quoting from?

          • Goodrice

            235-08, for the third time.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Goodrice,

            Got it.

            Thanks.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Goodrice,

            What is the document number you quoted the text from?

          • Goodrice

            235 exhibit 08, as also posted below. Here is the link again.

            http://coldfusioncommunity.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0235.08_Exhibit_8.pdf

            Writing in this blog post is very difficult, by the way: I am frequently unable to type in the message boxes.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Some reader proposed to hit the Windows key if this problem occurs. Works for me.

          • Josh G

            All I can say is I hope you’re right. There is a new comment from Rossi on JONP where he puts forward your ‘flexible replacement’ windowpanes theory. But whatever the case, I think it still won’t look good to the jury.

          • Josh G

            Here is some of the deposition from document 194-08. Note that Rossi’s attorney is not objecting to the form of the question and that despite Rossi’s initial hesitation, he confirms that it was the middle window and only the middle window.

            Q. So if you look at Exhibit A-1, when we
            15 look on — we can see light coming through two
            16 openings here. Are those both windows or am I
            17 looking somehow at doors?

            18 A. No, are both windows.

            19 Q. Was the air being pushed out of both
            20 those windows or just one?

            21 A. No, just one. The one with the two guys
            22 there because we were substituting the — we were
            23 making substitution of — of the glasses there. The
            24 second one has been the window that we used.

            25 Q. Okay. So A-2, is that the — is it your
            Page 161
            1 testimony that’s the window that was used to push the
            2 air out?

            3 A. I think so, yes.

            4 Q. Okay. And just so I understand —

            5 A. I think so. Sorry to interrupt. I think
            6 so because, you know, I am not — I don’t remember
            7 exactly looking out of that window, if this is the
            8 panorama.
            9 In any case, yes, I think so. Because
            10 this window is equal to another — there are three
            11 windows basically. Yes, three windows there are and
            12 we used for this purpose the central one.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            I suggest the photographs do show the window panes were removed and replaced as required.

            Seems clear that in this photo that at least 10 window panes had been removed. Very different black reflection from the 6 windows to the right with panes vs the 6 windows minus their panes on the left. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9bde554dad73547f148c3d893470a3931331065fd6c230f74617e9f552189315.png

          • Josh G

            Yes, we’ve been over this before. I was going to drop it since I had said all I have to say about it, but since you brought it up again I’ll do-si-do with you again.

            The photographs on the left were taken at different times, angles and lighting conditions than the picture on the right. If you look at other windows from other offices in the building from those April 2015 streetview pics, you will see that many of them also do not have reflections and look like Rossi’s windows. Do you think those other offices were also taking out their window panes willy nilly? I agree that it is not possible to tell from those pictures for certain if they had glass panes in them, one way or another. But I will point out that your theory that all the panes were removed contradicts Rossi’s statement that only one window (the middle one) was used to vent the heat.

            Also you did not include here the April 2015 picture from a few hours later from the far (West) side of the street, which is the proper comparison. If we go with your theory, this would mean that the panes were removed in the early afternoon but then put back in place a few hours later — presumably because they did not need to vent any more heat at that time.

            Take a minute to think about the implications of this. It means, first of all, that Rossi would have needed to delegate this responsibility to James Bass, since Rossi worked the night shift and was not there during those hours. I presume he was given more than just the responsibility for taping up and removing the panes as needed, but also for regulating the heat required for whatever process Rossi was supposedly running (i.e., deciding when and how much steam to divert to the exchanger). I haven’t seen any indication from the depositions that Bass had been delegated that kind of task or authority, but I agree it’s possible.

            Alternatively, Rossi could have left Bass with very specific instructions: remove the panes at a certain hour, turn on the fan, and re-direct the steam to the exchanger.

            But is it reasonable to believe that his (apparently new and experimental) process was so reliable and predictable that he could give such exact instructions? No. And if it wasn’t that reliable or predictable, then it seems to me that requiring the panes to be removed in order vent heat is unsafe. What would you do if there was a problem and you suddenly had to vent some heat? You would have to turn the valve to divert the steam to the exchanger, then run upstairs to quickly remove the panes and turn on the fan. Not safe, but perhaps I am exaggerating the danger. I know you’ve speculated that he had other ways to vent the heat, but so far in the court evidence there is no indication of that so it remains speculation. Anyway, none of these scenarios strikes me as plausible.

            Also, do we have any evidence that his process ever used a full 1 MW of heat at any time? No, I don’t think we have any evidence to that effect. If anything, we have evidence that it could not have absorbed 1 MW of heat, since apparently all he did was sprinkle some palladium and then later graphene into the serpentine tubes. Could that have absorbed 1 MW of heat? I’m not an engineer but it seems far fetched.

            Rossi could presumably provide details of whatever process he was doing with JMP, but he says it is an industrial secret of JMP. Which means it is Rossi’s industrial secret. Which means he could choose to disclose the process to explain how it was able to absorb 1 MW of heat. That would lend him a lot more credibility and boost his chances of winning the lawsuit. Do you really think the details of that process is so secretive and valuable that it is worth risking 89 million dollars?

            No, as much as it pains me to say it, the whole story has simply begun to crumble under the weight of its own implausibility. I still hold out hope that I will be proven wrong and Rossi will have his day in court. But I’m not holding my breath.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Josh,

            It is simple to remove and replace the window panes. Even a non engineer could do it. I stare at a bank of solar panels under all conditions and know what a reflection looks like. All my years of engineering experience tells me there were panes removed and replaced as operationally required.

            Will be interesting to read your comments on the Dr. Wong image of the bottom of the door.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a339764be7a69d6d9ed7e4eb363cf166a0c14eeb1ce0f3ffd3d44f80a741a558.png

            Sure looks like the claimed steam pipe crossed the opening on the left side of the dry wall cutout.

          • Josh G

            I have seen that picture already. I don’t have an explanation for that. I suppose it could be a pipe. It could also have other explanations. Is it the size you’d expect from the calculated pipe diameter?

          • Josh G

            I know you suggest that. We keep going round and round on it. I don’t see you directly addressing any of my points, though. Which is fine. We can let the jury decide. I hope you’re right.

          • Guru Khalsa

            Sorry to be beating a dead horse so to speak, but something has always bothered me about that picture. Here it is:
            https://www.google.com/maps/@25.8159305,-80.3255183,3a,60y,83.78h,91.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPThPoQ6fhM85Tte2C-quAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
            Look at the two windows at the top left corner of the building, look at the window with the cloud, and look at the window just below the ‘printing’ sign on the right. The two windows on the right clearly show IMO a reflection of the power lines, the window on the left seems to show the power lines also although less obvious. The window with the cloud shot from the same perspective shows no power lines.
            Both the windows on the top right and left seem to have more contrast or maybe more pixels IMO that the window with the cloud. Which leaves me to think there is something not right about this picture. Also I find it curious that there are two different pictures shot at different times of day for April 2015 but can find only one picture for all the other days that the google mobile shot pictures at that site. So although this certainly not definitive it makes me question the validity of this picture.

        • Obvious

          And in July 2016 there is glass in the window. Great reflections of trees, not ambiguous. So the windows came out between July 2016 and Feb 10, 2017, and the glass repair guys in the Wong picture and missing panes at the time Wong was there means nothing in respect to the heat exchanger.

        • Josh G

          No, it’s not weird. If you click on many places in the picture it will take you to a different position from the default view. The reason for that, I reckon, is that when you press on a spot to get closer to the building, it will take you to the 2016 view so you can get the closer view. You see, the view I linked to is on the far (West) side of the street. I don’t know why it doesn’t take you to the closer pics on the near (East) side of the street from 2015 instead of 2016. I guess it is programmed to take you to the most recent pic as a default.

          The default view is the most recent one, which is July 2016. It’s very easy to tell the difference between the April 2015 and July 2016 views because the grass in 2016 was much greener and fuller, while in 2015 it was browner and thinner. Also in the 2015 pictures there was roadwork going on or recently completed. No sign of it in the 2016 pictures.

          But anyway I did exactly as you said and it indeed took me to the default July 2016 view. (That also happened when I pressed in other spots.) That is to say, the date changed to 2016 because your view also changed to 2016, but I don’t think you realized that. Try it again and zoom out. Look at the grass. That’s your tell. If you still think what you said is true, then take a zoomed out screenshot so we can see that the date and the picture don’t match.

  • Engineer48

    I’m back at work and very busy, so I’ll struggle to keep up with happening in this place.

    As a closing offering, I present the words and pictures taken by Dr. Wong about what he called FOUR HOLES in the outer wall with a picture he took of the FOUR missing window panes in question.

    Here I do note Dr. Wong is a hired expert witness, that visited the upper floor, took photos and reported on what he saw.

    For me it is VERY CLEAR that at the time Dr. Wong visited the upper story, there was no glass panes in the window frame but instead the four holes as observed and reported by Dr. Wong

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3dda2d971889916d06ac18b88fd718729db4ca1d59e98147d149991c2a62e5c5.png

    Of course that is not proof the window panes were missing during the 1 year test and no proof that a heat exchanger operated in the upper story space.

    What Dr. Wong stated does however support the possibility that those window panes were missing and from the glass truck seen through the window opening, that they were in the process of being replaced. At least we do know a glass company attended the site to do some work on the windows.

    So I throw into the snake pit of counter claims about the window panes, the words and images from Dr. Wong and the existence of the glass trucks and workmen.