Rossi vs. IH: Case Settled (Rossi: “Satisfied” with settlement, Joint Statement to be Issued)

Thanks to Abd Lomax for posting the following on his Cold Fusion Community website:

“All claims and counterclaims withdrawn. Jury dismissed. Agreement, if any, was private. Full details, such as I have, when I get home.”

What an interesting turn of events. We don’t know how things will pan out going forward — does this mean that IH and Leonardo are again partners, or was there an agreement to part the ways with certain terms settled on? I hope we will find out, but it does mean a new chapter for the E-Cat has opened.

We will certainly be following this news, and reporting on any developments, but since the details are private we may never know the terms.

Thanks to Engineer 48 for this:

From LENR Forum:
PAPERLESS Minute Entry for proceedings held before Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga:
Jury Trial completed on 7/5/2017.
Case settled.
Total time in court: 48 minutes.
Attorney Appearance(s): Francisco J Leon de la Barra, Rodolfo Nunez, Christopher Rebel Jude Pace, Erika Stephanie Handelson, Bernard P. Bell, Christopher Martin Lomax, John William Annesser, II, Brian W. Chaiken, John Charles Lukacs, Court Reporter: Stephanie McCarn, 305-523-5518 / (cmz) (Entered: 07/05/2017)

UPDATE: Here is a comment from Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics:

Andrea Rossi
July 5, 2017 at 5:53 PM
The terms of the settlement will remain under NDA for ever, as per request of the Attorneys of both Parties.
Personally, I am glad to be free to return to work full time for my E-Cat.
I will never anymore talk about the issues of the litigation. They belong to the past. The war is over, now we must build a constructive future.
From now I return to talk with our Readers.
Warm Regards,

UPDATE (July 6, 2017)

Some Q&As on the Journal of Nuclear Physics

July 6, 2017 at 6:25 AM
Dr Andrea Rossi:
1- will you make the presentation of the QuarkX within this year? AR: Yes
2- are you still preparing the manufacturing of the E-Cat in the USA and in Sweden? AR: Yes
3- are you satisfied with the settlement? AR: Yes
4- will the general terms of the settlement be explained in a joint release from the attorneys of both parties? AR: Yes
5- will remain under NDA the economic terms of the settlement? AR: Yes
Thank you if you can answer,


So it sounds like we can expect a joint statement from attorneys of both parties — should be interesting reading.

  • Howard Hinman


  • Bob Greenyer

    Well that was expected.

    • clovis ray

      Come on Bob you didn’t have a clue .

      • That’s unfair, ALL of us had no clue…

      • Bob Greenyer

        1. Having worked in the city for the best part of 10 years, reputation damage can be far cheaper to avoid than risk. For instance – I watched the guy I wrote presentations and speeches for, get on a plane and agree to hand over $340million to the US authorities without much debate so as to avoid reputation damage. I would imagine that given that the first day in court was reported in the press, any savvy investment group associated with the case would have said “just make an agreement”. Regardless of the merits of the case either way, all the petty arguments that have been discussed within our small universe would have started to be known widely and the potential for damage to share prices and risk of fund withdrawals, could cost far more than a settlement.

        2. Coming to an agreement would allow IH to use a chunk of the funds it has secured to help fund research in the coming years.

        3. Someone I respected had said that they expected a settlement in the next few days.

        For the above reasons, I expected a settlement, I did not say I knew it would happen. I chose to not engage in the Rossi vs IH affair, other than when, without trying to, we had data that supported previous claims made by Rossi or were asked about it directly.

        I wish all parties willing and able to bring this technology to the masses, good fortune.

        • Stephen

          That’s funny I often feel I expected something in retrospect. Strange thing is I had no idea I would feel that before 😉.

          Seriously maybe you did expect it your points and experience make me feel you could have that insight.

          I’m glad this episode is over and that the cloud of dispondency surrounding the issue can dissipate at last. Its a huge relief it’s resolved and I hope that goes for everyone involved. I’m also glad the ECat version of LENR was not suppressed in the process and can still be investigated. It’s time for everyone to get back to what is important experimenting, analyzing, understanding and developing something with all kinds of LENR.

          It’s good MFMP remained independent on this issue. The MFMP integrity and independence is hard won and essential to your work and highly respected and valuable to everyone I think.

          • Bob Greenyer

            The case was a boil on the body LENR, when LENR should have got everyone boiling.

            Thanks for your kind words. Let’s see what the statements are.

          • LION

            Wise words Stephen, though I am bemused this whole court case has made LENR people so twitchy, unless they doubt its validity or any ones ability to take it forward before funding dried up if the court case went bad with big adverse publicity.
            For me since LENR is self evidently real those fears were never going to manifest anyway, the best medicine for securing the future is more QUALITY work, experimenters must just Knuckle down and get on with it, like this chap:


            Now the trial is over I will be posting more myself too.
            I have never doubted that Andrea Rossi has made some wonderful and very important discoveries, when it pleases him he will show his hand, in the mean time ALL EXPERIMENTERS should just keep working hard.

          • One of the things I was “twitchy” about was that if Rossi lost decisively, the press would paint this as proof that LENR doesn’t work. Anyone who has worked with the press will know that they don’t get things right and they lean towards the most eye-catching headline.

            How did you get to the point where you can say LENR is self evidently real?

          • LION

            I practice what I suggest.


            Alan Smith LION • a month ago

            Hi Lion.

            Thought I would add the photomicrograph pictures I took of the inside of one of your fuel tubes. The cream image shows very clear ‘paired’ particle tracks and pits. Good things come in tubes, they say. The green image shows another part of the inside of the same alumina fuel tube. I used a green filter to enhance the little brilliant gold flecks which can be seen inside, and in one place on the outside where a minute hole has been punched through the alumina- which takes a huge amount of energy -these tubes are tough!

        • LION

          3. Someone I respected had said that they expected a settlement in the next few days.

          ‘I’m beginning to think they might settle on the courthouse steps.’


          • LION

            Alan Smith Mats Lewan • 22 days ago

            My guess is that there will be some kind of last minute settlement. Nobody would want to expose a jury to the legendary Rossi charm. Prepare for drama on the courthouse steps.

    • Zephir

      Except you haven’t predicted it.

  • we-cat

    Massive respect for Rossi the fighter. The man has balls of steel and a gut lined with tiger fur.

    • f sedei

      Nothing is more convincing than honest indignation.

  • Navdrew

    Hopefully onward to 5 Sigma and the QuarkX public demonstration.

  • artefact

    🙂 I hope we will get some information what is/was going on.

  • Buck

    At this moment, there is the queasy feeling that we may never know the details of the agreement to close the case.

    I think there is a line of logic that requires some level of public disclosure.

    This logic starts with Rossi’s PR NewsWire announcement of license revocation for IH. If IH maintains their license to sell, then there must be disclosure so that the customers know that they are not participating in a fraud. If IH loses their license, then there need be no disclosure . . . the newswire announcement stands.

    Further, as an investor, Woodford will demand to know the resulting value of their investment.

    A lawyer may word it better, but there seems to be some implicit requirement to publicly disclose the nature of the “going-forward” arrangement for certain outcomes.

    • That’s the ball to keep our eyes on, whether or not Rossi keeps his IP and what IH does with the IP moving forward. IH can quietly just explain to Woodford that the project is not moving forward and say nothing. I think this is going to be the most likely outcome.

      • Buck

        I think you’re pointing in the right direction . . .

      • Mats002

        Remember that IH has financial involvement in other projects than Rossi/E-Cat – they can still be in the LENR business…

        • I suspect they will back Brullion further. They probably lost Rossi’s IP. Many were suspicious that IH was giving Brullion Rossi’s IP . Hopefully this sets up a race condition where whoever gets to market first, wins. In mercato veritas.

  • clovis ray

    I feel good that things will move once again, I like that Adb said Dr Rossi looked healthy very important. I will say that he settled for the return of all ip rights and money all ready received, they get out with maybe a licence to sale and that’s all no regions. Dr Rossi has no ill will toward anyone he a Christian and will treat ih honestly.

  • f sedei

    I don’t believe this case would have been settled without Rossi getting much more of what he wanted. If true, Rossi is the winner,and LENR is back on the table. Good news.

  • artefact
  • Let’s see: 1. a group of infamous promoters approached Rossi, 2. he negotiated a good deal all around to begin, 3. the promoters put up $10 million, no small sum based on what one must assume was proper due diligence, 4. they are proven to have totally embraced and sold the Rossi concept and their grip on his technology and used that to raise scores of millions of OPM (other peoples money) for tiny amounts of equity, 5. Rossi stuck out the agreed to test period, 6. IH reneged on the deal after taking in the big money and being obliged to make a big payout to Rossi, 7. Rossi promptly and properly brought the specified legal action, 8. he stuck to his claims in spite of the troll tirades on so called social media, 9. the trial begins, 10. Penon’s report along with much more was accepted into evidence… Next, wonders of wonders, there is a private settlement and the case is closed… Rossi seems to have behaved with a masterfully dignified professional and legal process… The definitively psychopathic trolls continue their pitiful howling… Will there be more facts or just more howling of fake news. Is there a rising Italian tide that will float all boats, or are all the boats still just stuck on that nondescript tidal mudflat.

  • wpj

    Amusing write up from ABD. More concise than most of his ramblings.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Full respect for ABD for going and being our eyes and ears on the ground.

      Thankyou ABD, I have never said anything bad about you, but if I had, I’d take it all back now – I still fondly remember our chat in the lounge of the hotel in University of Missouri.

      And yes, his review of the proceedings didn’t need a meal break – but to be fair, it was only 15 minutes reported on, imagine if the trial had lasted years!

  • Hi all

    Rossi’s Lawyers all there and smiling

    A couple of IH’s Lawyers there not smiling.

    When you celebrate the whole team are there.

    Rossi Shaking peoples hands.

    Darden serious face (glum?) not wanting to speak.

    The tells are there.

    Kind Regards Walker

    • peacelovewoodstock

      Walker, are you an eyewitness to this event? The demeanor of participants leaving courtroom certainly would be telling.

    • The patent wars have begun. The only winners will be the lawyers.

      A similar thing happened with the Wright brothers. The patent cases weren’t disentangled until the guvmint stepped in so that the USA could build airplanes for the war effort in Europe. I don’t see that kind of outcome happening with LENR. The patent wars will last decades.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Ian,

      Thanks for that.

      Just a bit different picture than Abd painted.

    • Hi all

      Who was there on the day:


      Rossi’s, Present
      Johnson, Present
      Bernstein, Present
      Lukacs, Present
      Annesser Present
      For Fabiani: Nunez Present
      For Johnson & Bass: de la Barra Present

      Darden, Present
      Vaughn, Present
      Lomax, Present
      Handleson Present
      Pace Present
      Chaiken, Present
      Bell Only Present for a few seconds
      Maugans, Not Present
      Mastrucci Not Present

      Rossi and his teams Lawyers are all there, ready to go to trial all court prepped timeline, boards markers, they are going to fight a court case.

      IH only have the defendants main reps there, no support, they do not intend to continue trial, they have decided to settle.

      Rossi smiling shaking hands, even of people who denigrated him.
      Darden Serious face, not wanting to speak.

      Kind Regards Walker

      • Mats002

        Good analysis Mr W.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Ian,

        Nice picture, just a bit different to the one painted by Abd.

      • This appears all we have to go on, for now. Team Rossi showed up for a fight, Team IH showed up to settle. Engineer48 says he has 2 sources saying Rossi is HAPPY HAPPY and we have Abd saying Darden’s demeanor is “serious face, not wanting to speak”.

        This all lends credence to the supposition that Rossi had put in an offer to compromise, which is what I have been focusing on (and got booted from LENR Forum for doing so). Dewey can’t jump up and down swearing there was never an offer in place because an offer was accepted.

        If the situation were reversed, Rossi unhappy and IH showing up for a fight but there being a settlement where Darden is all Happy Happy, then the evidence would be that IH submitted an offer to compromise that had been drearily accepted.

        Thanks for your insight, Walker.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      I was there and presumably Ian knows from my reports, and what he claims radically distorts what I saw. He has misreported what I wrote; for example Darden’s frown was before the Lukacs/Pace interruption. It was transient, he did not continue to frown. Darden did speak with me later. I would describe his mood as “philosophical” or I used the word “pensive.” He told me that IH was not giving up on LENR. He showed no sign of being unhappy.

      Rossi shook my hand because I went up to him and held out my hand, which he took, and I wished him “Good health, Dr. Rossi,” and he thanked me. He was not celebratory or effusive, but normally cordial as he had been before.

      I do not recall Annesser and Chaiken smiling. I don’t know that they did not, I merely didn’t see it if they did.

      Bernstein was smiling, chatting with Lomax during the 15 minute recess, as the attorneys learn what was happening, and a little later Handelson was chatting with Lomax and smiling.

      So my report is being heavily distorted, with additional imagined details being added, as if they are what happened. Thus is how people fool themselves.

  • This is really funny!

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I agree Doc, all the many hours followers put in this lawyer welfare system and they will never know what was decided, if anything.

      • I’ll be interesting to know if we will ever find out what they actually settled on but from the IH side of things yet another proof of their incompetence. They could have settled earlier saving a lot of money and time for everybody.

  • Hhiram

    I have to say I am VERY surprised. I assumed IH would just run Rossi into the dust. I see three plausible possibilities here, maybe others can think of more.

    1. Rossi has what he claims, a working cold fusion reactor, and IH realizes they cannot win in front of jury and therefore decides to settle. [I think this is extremely unlikely. Why would Rossi settle if he knew he was going to win?]

    2. Rossi has nothing and is a fraud, but IH settles in order to avoid public embarrassment. [I think this is unlikely since the damage is already done from news of the trial and their own claims that he is a fraud].

    3. Rossi has *something* but is very difficult to work with (and known to be at least partly dishonest/fraudulent), so IH settles in order to make him go away. This avoids nullifying the intellectual property they have acquired from Leonardo/Rossi which they still think they can make money with (probably by using it to leverage any future inventors who DO get LENR working).

    My guess is #3 is what happened. I think this was IH’s plan from the beginning. They never wanted to work with Rossi, he is too difficult. But they bought Leonardo/Rossi IP which they value at up to $100 million (whether it works or not, since confirming it doesn’t work lets them pursue Brillouin tech they own, etc.).

    This is ultimately very encouraging because it suggests LENR does actually work. If it really didn’t work at all, IH would have no reason to settle – they would simply defeat Rossi in trial.

    One other possibility is that they settled for an amount smaller than the cost of continuing the trial. Depends on the details of costs/settlement $, we may never know but I hope we find out.

    Let me finally add: it is possible that Rossi simply withdrew the lawsuit. But then, why (according to Abd Lomax account) is Rossi happy and celebrating in the court room, while Darden is serious and unhappy…? Doesn’t make sense, since Rossi would just be losing millions in legal fees.

  • So Rossi renounces the 89,000,000$, which would belong him safely if he actually would have what he claimed to have.
    Very telling…

    • Hi all

      In reply to Barty

      Would you care to share the evidence of your statement?

      Kind Regards Walker

    • Björn-Ola

      A very intelligent assumption..
      Rossi is glad shaking hands because he won’t get the money and Darden is sad because he don’t have to pay the money….

    • Engineer48

      Hi Barty,

      Suspect Rossi wrote off the $89m as fair cost to rid himself of IH, which is what happened.

      IH are not protesting the termination of their license.

      Rossi now has the whole planet to sell QuarkX reactors to, including all previous IH territories.

      • Björn-Ola

        But why then go to court in the first place?

        • Because they were pissed off. Lawyers are the only ones who win.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Simply to get a “clear title” to his IP and maybe all patents connected to it.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bernie,

            Yup that is my call as well.

            To get IH to agree to walk away or for IH to be forced by the court to walk away.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Hi 48: I am a little surprised that IH would walk away, their legal bills had to be 10 times that of Rossi. I want to hear more about how the lawyers reacted to the settlement from observers in the court room, it would tell me a lot about who won and lost.

          • It sounds like he has clear title to IP but maybe IH still has distribution rights. I suppose if Rossi really has the golden goose, he’ll sell his stuff in Europe and Africa and charge a huge premium for America until someone bumps IH off that position. But there is just no telling because it’s all speculation.

            I don’t understand why IH didn’t settle in the first place.

    • Not so safely because the burden of proof was on him and IH could just declare bankruptcy, which is one of their previous business practices with shadow LLCs in the past.

  • Ciaranjay

    Did Rossi get his $89 million? We don’t know.
    Did IH get to keep the license or IP? We don’t know.
    What was the split of the legal bills? We don’t know.
    When will Rossi demonstrate the QuarkX or sell some product? We don’t know.
    Will IH still be trying to sell E-Cats or will they go off to develop a different LENR device? We don’t know.

    So at the close of this chapter in the story there are a lot of “Don’t knows”.

    Time will tell. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
    I want my Ecat now.

    • Mats002

      Is Rossi and the E-Cat a complete scam? We don’t know – but wait! Why on earth would IH/Woodford settle so fast if so???

      • Bob Greenyer

        Reputation and nothing to win given the lawyers costs to date.

        • Mats002

          The best for IH/Woodford reputation would be to trash Rossi totally as a scammer – IF it was a clear case. It obviously is not.

          • Bob Greenyer

            It might have taken a huge amount of money to do, money they would not have been able to recover from Rossi and so it would have been a pyrrhic victory.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Mats2,

        Word is there is a new very positive Upssala report on the IH built Lugano reactors. Apparently the report was not available during discovery so may be admissible in court.

        • Mats002

          Hi Eng, word also days that the Uppsala team will report some of their findings after this summer.

        • Is there some place you can point us to dig on this rumor?

      • If it was a scam with all that evidence submitted to the court, then that evidence can be readily used for a criminal investigation into Rossi. I don’t see that happening. The burden of proof in a civil trial is “preponderance of evidence” and IH didn’t even move forward on that. The burden of proof in a criminal trial is “beyond a reasonable doubt”, a higher burden that wouldn’t hold up.

        So from now on the Pro-Rossi people can say they have Legal Proof that it was not a scam. Not that the skeptopaths would agree with it.

    • clovis ray
      3.ih pays Rossi lawyers
      5.if they do they will feal the Rossi rather once again.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Clovis,

        Suggest you hang fire on those no and yes answers.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      IH never tried to sell E-cats. They will do what they have been doing for a few years now, investigating LENR technology. I think they should auction off the Plant. They paid $1.5 million for it. Rossi claimed it cost $200,000 to build. Maybe HydroFusion would buy it.

      • Engineer 48 says he’ll buy the plant. Next time you talk to the IH people you should bring that up.

  • Engineer48

    Have heard from 2 sources that Rossi is HAPPY, HAPPY.

    AND back at WORK!!

    • Mats002

      How much did this trial cost him? He won 10M and can keep ’em now but what might be left from that today?

      • Bob Greenyer

        I expect his lawyers were cheaper.

        • Mats002

          So if he is a con man (a very skilled and hard working, no lazy money from what I can see) then he now can run away with some M$ at the age of – is it 70? A con man should disappear now and live the last years in the sun doing next to nothing – well maybe keep on with some new simpler scams but not LENR…

          • Bob Greenyer

            Rossi will deliver the goods as he can in his own way, I expect he values his own reputation, which one could say has suffered attacks over the years.

            I think we’d all look forward to an incontrovertible demonstration.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            “incontrovertible demonstration”, Impossible. How about three customers swearing they made, saved money.

          • Bob Greenyer

            That would qualify… assuming they were incontrovertibly verified customers 😉

          • Not necessarily. Con men are addicted to the con.

            I’m convinced this whole thing was about IP anyways. It made no sense for IH not to settle early on because they claimed Rossi’s IP was worthless but they tried to hold onto it. Rossi has always thought his IP was worth a lot (even if he might possibly be a deluded con man of some sort).

        • clovis ray

          Yah, and remember what was said about going against the top lawyer’s in the world, it was kids play for Dr.Rossi and his team, he should start his on law firm lol.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Mats2,

        If the QuarkX demo happens, money is not an issue.

        Plus Rossi how owns all of the previous IH territories.

        $89m to eliminate a partner that did not work out and get back territories worth trillions.

        • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

          I don’t know where this idea comes from that IH has lost the license they paid for. Dropping the lawsuit did not cancel the Agreement. Now if my impression, standing there in the middle of the attorneys scurrying back and forth, as the mood got brighter and brighter, that this was a simple dismissal of all claims and counterclaims is incorrect, then we don’t know –at all — what the terms are. It may indeed be that the agreement includes confidentiality, that they won’t talk about terms even if there are none other than dripping the claims. Eventually some facts will come out. IH is an asset of IHHI, which issues public financial statements.

          Some of the ideas proposed are silly. Some have said that IH agreed to pay the $89 million. But a Rossi claim was that IH didn’t have it. Certainly they can’t just hand $89 million over on the spot. (Sorry, I forgot my wallet at home. I’ll give it to you tomorrow.) No. the quid pro quo had to be immediate, realizable without fail, and not complicated. Simple. We tell the judge was are dropping the claims. And everyone goes home. Done. Yes, it has consequences. The license is in place. IH still has a right of first refusal as to other territories, but this does not harm Rossi. I doubt that IH would care to rely on it. Rossi is obligated with regard to patents, there could be new issues come up. Basically, follow the Agreement. A GPT could still be set up if all the parties agree, which was the original condition that Rossi did not pay attention to, he wouldn’t make that mistake again. The claim that IH broke the Agreement is dead.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Abd,

            IH never owned the IP.
            They had a conditional license to use it.
            Leonardo terminated that use right.
            If IH don’t have that overturned, they have no rights to anything.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            Rossi’s termination was never tested. It was not an issue before the court. Rossi did not claim termination, and IH did not surrender the license and did not claim wrongful termination in the counterclaims. Rossi claimed, in the termination, that it was for nonpayment. This was legally defective, Rossi could not do that without a court order or agreement.

            Rossi is now estopped from claiming nonpayment.

            Does E48 have knowledge that IH license loss was in a settlement agreement? How would he know that? Rossi has claimed that there is an NDA about the terms or conditions of the settlement. I have indications that this is either true, or some NDA is being negotiated. If Rossi told E48, then, he may have violated an NDA. If E48 cares about Rossi, I’d suggest that he clarify, and if Rossi did tell him, he STFU.

    • Why?
      It was him who started that lawsuit, and now he settles…hmm…

      • Engineer48

        Hi Barty,

        Maybe wait for the statements?

        For all we know Rossi initiated the lawsuit to eliminate the IH license via the courts. Do you know why he did what he did?

        One point is that Rossi did not get his butt kicked as Weaver said would happen. Where is the Weaver wiping Rossi from the face of the Earth action?

        • Mats002

          He he he! F8/F9

          • Bob Greenyer

            Arghhghg, hehe

        • Dewey Weaver probably passed out from all the Xanax he’s taking.

      • Hi all

        Do you think maybe he settled for more than just a mere $89 million?

        Kind Regards walker

        • Engineer48

          Hi Ian,

          How much is the once IH owned territory worth?

          Several hundred billion?

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            Whatever they owned, they still own. But it’s not clear what it is worth. Perhaps IH might auction it. Or sell shares in it, disclaiming all representations of value, an auction. What would you pay for one millionth equity in the IH license? If IH were to go bankrupt, the License would be auctioned, I’m pretty sure.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Abd,

            IH never owned the IP.

        • Mats002

          Yeah that would be a twist would’nt it? IH/Woodford pays MORE for their IP?

          • Hi all

            We know it was IH who blinked. If they could have won they would have gone to trial.

            Rossi’s team were prepared to go to trial. Fully set up ready to argue their case.

            Rossi Lawyers were happy.
            So were IHs Lawyers.
            Both sets of lawyers are being payed.

            Rossi is by all accounts very very happy and was seen to be smiling in court, and shaking peoples hands and chatting to them.

            IH settled IH is paying.
            Darden was not smiling.

            Kind Regards Walker

        • Highly doubtful. They only raised $50 million, it would have been far cheaper for them to see this trial to the end.

          • Hi all

            You are forgetting that Rossi named Darden, Vaughn and the parent companies.

            It would have bankrupted them too. By naming them in correspondence in inducements to sign contracts they made them party to all consequences, standard mistake people make in trying to use a limited liability protection, but failing.

            Kind Regards Walker

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            Most of the $50 million has been spent on other LENR technology and some on pure research. First of all, Altonaga was not about to let that jury go unless this vampire had a stake driven through its heart. Dismissal with prejudice, and no conditions that could fail. There wasn’t time to negotiate comditions. Lukacs cut the Gordian knot. IH gave up recovery, Rossi gave up the $89 million and hopeless fraud claim.

            I’m proud of him for giving it up. The only thing worse than making a stupid mistake is not letting go of it, and filing the suit did incredible damage to Rossi. Rossi made many mistakes in dealing with IH, his habit of declaring possibilities as already-realized fact (which can be very useful in some ways) was clearly headed to him being deconstructed in front of the jury and the world. Pace laid it out, clearly and simply, and I know the evidence Pace was going to present. Chaiken was almost incoherent, drawing weak conclusions with little emotional impact from weak and misleading evidence. Chaiken was ignoring established law, and this would surely have come out. Lukacs (pronounced Lucas, Pace told me) saw what to do, and didn’t hesitate, and may have saved his client millions of dollars, and serious stress. He had a few minutes. I’m in awe.

            And I’m happy about Darden, also letting go. Some people won’t be happy. Contrary to what some have thought, though, this trial was not going to prove or disprove the technology, and a jury is not the judge of technology. The market, and what is the market saying, and are we listening?

          • Well, one thing the market and press are not saying is that this trial proves LENR isn’t real, which is a distinct possibility if Rossi had decisively lost. So LENR won at least slightly, today.

            How do you know those claims were given up? Did you overhear it?

          • clovis ray

            Hi Abd.
            Why are you still trying to defend this bunch. And you know well that this deal was negotiated long before the trial started and i/h that was running a bluff right up to court day Dr.Rossi called their bluff and they gave up. And settled for what was on the table already you know well that there could not be a settlement made so quick what did you say, 15 minutes. The money that made the lawyer smile wasn’t the reason why Darden was all frowned up.we can easily guess what that was. 89 mill and cost plus the ip.

          • The settlement itself didn’t take 15 minutes to negotiate. That was obviously negotiated by the lawyers over the long holiday. What took 15 minutes to do was get the judge to sign on and give her John Hancock to the whole thing.

          • clovis ray

            How do you know it was negotiated over the weekend did you over hear it. IF he lost, but he didn’t lose ,what’s your point. And lenr did not slightly win it won big time.

          • I know because a lawyer can’t finish picking his nose if he is billing a client for the time.

          • I see my response was dropped by DISQUST. I said something to the effect that lawyers can’t finish picking their nose in 15 minutes if their client is paying for the time. It took 15 minutes for the judge to get her ducks in a row.

            You know how I know that LENR only slightly won rather than winning “big time”? Because Jones Beene and Jed Rothwell are not exuberant. Rossi has a lot of negatives, including the fact that he’s no scientist, he’s a businessman with the motto “in mercato veritas”. There is nothing In Mercato so there is nothing Veritas.

        • clovis ray

          In a word yes.

      • Jerry Soloman

        We know Barty your confused, that’s OK, can you UN-BAN a few people you recently banned on LENR FORUM now.

        • That’s some setup they got over there. I am one of the recently banned.

          They put you on Animal House Super Double Secret Probation without telling you. They don’t send warnings. They have this separate thread they move your comment to, and then they respond on that thread but it never sends you a notification. Pure bullshit.

          And Eric Walker agrees that they engage in “some farm animals are more equal than others” standard of moderation. He puts me on warning for one thing and then temp bans me for something else. There is simply no standard they’re adhering to, because if they did they’d have to ban some of their most prolific members. Pure bullshit.

          I was focused on how a settlement could come about with what we surmised from Rossi’s comments that had already been discussed with IH, and lo and behold! a settlement is reached. But my stuff is labelled contentless. Pure bullshit.

  • Bruce__H

    So what happens now? If Rossi abandons the ECat and continues to promote the QuarkX does that reset the clock? Does he get another who-knows-how-many years with everyone saying ‘oh just give him time’ and ‘the market is the the ultimate judge’?

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      The market is the judge, so let the market be the judge, don’t sit around saying wise phrases like “the narket is the judge,” while we think we know how the market will judge and argue endlessly about it.

      My own interest is not the market at all, though markets are important. My interest is two-fold, in science, and in human decision-making process, but above all this is fun.

      After all, what’s it all for?

      • Bruce__H

        I agree about the fun part. But I’m afraid I don’t understand what you are getting at in your first paragraph.

    • I still suspect we’ll know what we need to know one way or the other by the end of the year. There are too many balls in the air (BLP, Brillouin, Parkhomov, me356, Ecco, etc on top of the QX). If all the balls fall to the ground, then we have our answer.

      • Bruce__H

        I doubt that will happen. I predict that none of the groups you have mentioned will achieve success by the end of the year. Instead they will all be in the same state as they are now and the LENR community will refuse to draw any negative conclusion from that.

        The ECCO test will be the most interesting though.

        • Can’t speak for the community, but I personally will draw some negative conclusions if that’s how it plays out.

        • help_lenr

          I don’t rely on MFMP. They are diletant. They can only talk nice.
          If the try to replicate ECCO — I can assure you right now that they will fail.

          • Do you think they’ll fail because ECCO isn’t producing exess heat or because MFMP is incompetent?

    • What happens now is to ignore Rossi until there’s something on the market, as he says “in mercato veritas”.

      I think one other way that LENR won today was all the stuff that was entered into evidence, unlike what happened when Patterson died, there was nothing to build on.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Good job Abd Lomax, thanks. Will be interested in hearing your additional thoughts about, “All lawyers smiling broadly, on all sides.”

    • Stephen

      Yes thanks to Abd, I appreciate also the human touches in todays commentary too. From the impression of people reactions in the court room to Abd’s meeting with TD son out side the chamber.

      It’s easy to forget it’s real people with real life concerns that are going through the process.

      In the end I realize that this process likely touched all sides deeply.

      I hope the resolution brings all sides some relief and the feeling that they can at last move forward positively.

      • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

        Thanks. Rossi seemed totally relieved on JONP today.

        • Omega Z

          I’ve seen nothing from Rossi on JONP except no comments of the situation. NDA

  • Bob Greenyer

    Good job frank in fixing the site and the lock-out bug in discuss comments before this news broke!

    • Mats002

      Speaking about our boss here – Frank is invited by Rossi since way back to see the E-Cat plant in action. When will this happen I wunder…

      • bfast

        Yes, Fank. You have maintained an impressive relationship with Eng. Rossi over the years. I’m sure that we, the community would happily cover your costs to visit him on his own turf. So many of us want a better feel for what is going on behind those closed doors.

  • AdrianAshfield

    For those that missed the link, Abd Lomax posted more mere here.

    Even if Rossi won he would never see $89 million. IH would declare bankruptcy. The lawyers have cost $15 million (unverified) already and dragging on the case for another 5 weeks would only benefit them.

    So logically Rossi would settle for less and possibly a change in the licensing agreement.
    Just how confident IH were will be indicated by the details. It was not a slam dunk for them as those on other forums have stated. The pump could supply the water required and the flow meter was apparently not running half full. In essence they would have to prove the genuine expert ERV, agreed on by both sides, was wrong. JM Products was basically a red herring. It was the measurements in the plant that counted.

    • I’m pretty sure you’re right that Rossi would never see the $89M because of IH’s past habit of setting up LLCs to take the fall and declare bankruptcy. That’s probably why Rossi sued Darden personally.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Kevmo,

        Yup, for sure.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          And that is why Darden’s son was at the trial. (:

          • Mats002

            The heritage at stake?

          • Bernie Koppenhofer


        • Omega Z

          And very likely DARDEN does not have $89M or he wouldn’t have been selling IH shares to obtain funding. Also note- If Rossi won, he stood the possibility of obtaining 3x$89M… That at the discretion of the Jury of course…

          • I still think Rossi would likely have lost his lawsuit but there was obviously a non-negligible chance that he would win. The Judge was calling him Dr. Rossi, the jury was nontechnical, the high level stuff favored Rossi, and he does have some obvious charm the jury would respond to. When you’re looking at a non-negligible chance of losing 3X$89M and there’s a settlement offer on the table, you bite the bullet.

  • Hhiram

    I have to say I am VERY surprised. I assumed IH would just run Rossi into the dust. I see three plausible possibilities here, maybe others can think of more.

    1. Rossi has what he claims, a working cold fusion reactor, and IH realizes they cannot win in front of jury and therefore decides to settle. [I think this is extremely unlikely. Why would Rossi settle if he knew he was going to win?]

    2. Rossi has nothing and is a fraud, but IH settles in order to avoid public embarrassment. [I think this is unlikely since the damage is already done from news of the trial and their own claims that he is a fraud].

    3. Rossi has *something* but is very difficult to work with (and known to be at least partly dishonest/fraudulent), so IH settles in order to make him go away. This avoids nullifying the intellectual property they have acquired from Leonardo/Rossi which they still think they can make money with (probably by using it to leverage any future inventors who DO get LENR working).

    My guess is #3 is what happened. I think this was IH’s plan from the beginning. They never wanted to work with Rossi, he is too difficult. But they bought Leonardo/Rossi IP which they value at up to $100 million (whether it works or not, since confirming it doesn’t work lets them pursue Brillouin tech they own, etc.).

    This is ultimately very encouraging because it suggests LENR does actually work. If it really didn’t work at all, IH would have no reason to settle – they would simply defeat Rossi in trial.

    One other possibility is that they settled for an amount smaller than the cost of continuing the trial. Depends on the details of costs/settlement $, we may never know but I hope we find out.

    Let me finally add: it is possible that Rossi simply withdrew the lawsuit. But then, why (according to Abd Lomax account) is Rossi happy and celebrating in the court room, while Darden is serious and unhappy…? Doesn’t make sense, since Rossi would just be losing millions in legal fees.

    • Why didn’t IH settle earlier? Rossi had claimed earlier that he had offered them to refund their payment if they released his IP back to him.

      Rossi had little hope of collecting $89M from a company with a past history of setting up shadow LLCs to take the fall & file bankruptcy.

      This whole lawsuit was over the IP that IH claimed was worthless but Rossi obviously thought was worth something. IH was putting down hard 10X legal money to keep the IP and finally decided it wasn’t worth it.

      • Buck


        I believe IH didn’t settle in the first place as they simply underestimated Rossi’s capabilities, his perseverance, and his resolute nature; they overlooked the type of character who would set a distance record during the 24-Hour duration run. They took him to be a rube who learned nothing from his adverse PetrolDragon experience in Italy.

        I think they were absolutely shocked when they realized that Rossi accumulated about 13-15 binders of evidence with the help of his attorney prior and during the 1-Year Test as a consequence of Rossi’s intuition that IH/Darden were/are the proverbially ‘bad-actors’ looking to take advantage.

        • I wonder how much they actually check the blogs that follow Rossi to see who’s shaking in their boots the most, as part of their “reading the body language”. If their case was solid, the folks here would be showing a lot more cognitive dissonance. As it was, it seems like there was much more cognitive dissonance on the other side.

          Rossi is definitely one tough bird. I’m frustrated by him, though. With all that has transpired, we are no further along than we were in 2011 and we have no realistic hope that we’ll get the facts or inside scoop.

          I’m trying to decide if LENR won today. I think so. Because if Rossi wants to get some more investors he will have to have more rigor to his testing and more credible competence and independence in the ERV. That is a healthy thing for LENR.

          • Buck


            I don’t want to crawl into the minds of IH/Darden . . . I don’t enjoy imagining the nature of mind or character which, as part of their take for the rules of The Game, actively sees Others as some form of predatory target and Law as something to be weaponized rather than as a cultural tool to nurture constructive relations between all citizens, friends and strangers alike.

            i do think we are far along compared to 2011. Then, it was a time of unstable reactions looking to achieve and maintain COPs in the range of about 3-4. Now, using the accumulated statistics of the 1-Year Test, the reaction looks to be entirely stable, where refinement is pushing the level of LENR process stability towards 5 Sigma, and the COP is stable at 60. We have gone from the “Warm Cat” to the QuarkX . . . seemingly a revolutionary leap in the actual ‘machine’. If the Rossi-Gulstrom experimental results are taken as fact, the QuarkX can be tuned so as to attain COP ~ 22,000 . . . a hard to believe level of energy; $1 of electricity generating $22,000 of industrial heat.

            I am with you . . . LENR won today. Now we wait to see what Rossi choses to do to achieve his goal of an E-Cat X in the marketplace.

          • In order to believe we are where you say we are, you have to believe in what Rossi says. Rossi has published complete falsehoods on his blog, some of which don’t even meet up with what he submitted under oath. So for myself, I’m stuck with what Rossi says we should judge his developments on their merits — in mercato veritas. That sounds a lot like ” Now we wait to see what Rossi choses to do to achieve his goal of an E-Cat X in the marketplace” so we have that in common.

          • Buck


      • Omega Z

        “This whole lawsuit was over the IP”

        That’s exactly what a Woodford funds associate stated.

      • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

        This statement about what Rossi offered is often repeated. I have never seen a clear source for it.

        • We tried to get to the bottom of it, across a couple of websites. Several of us remember seeing it on JONP but Rossi probably deleted it. I know from personal experience that Rossi deletes items from that blog.

          I went over to the wayback machine but their search function doesn’t work, so it’s like looking for a needle in a haystack.

          Surely there is no longer a position that an offer never existed? The evidence is that Darden/IH accepted an offer from Rossi, not vice versa.

    • Jerry Soloman

      Hhaiam, your wrong on almost all counts and this all makes perfect sense.

      Rossi is a easy man to get along until you try and take what belongs to him just ask the others.

    • Bicke Dutte

      1) and Rossi settled because he’d rather be working on his new invention rather than spending weeks in court + he may be getting something out of the settlement

    • US_Citizen71

      IH had a license to use Rossi’s/Leonardo’s IP not ownership of the IP. Rossi canceled the license last year, publically. IH needed their counter lawsuit in order to keep a license to use the IP. Since they canceled their countersuit it is not likely they can use any of Rossi’s/Leonardo’s IP without obtaining another license. I wouldn’t bet on Rossi offering them a license until forced to under fair use years from now. So that means your number 3 is nothing but a pipe dream.

      • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

        That license was not cancellable unless IH consented. This is clear, not doubtful. The countersuit did not ask for a restoral of license, IH ignored that alleged revocation, because it was a legal non-event. This is also moot, I assume that sane businessmen don’t want to go to prison for perjury, and so I assume that, indeed, they won’t be selling the technology as working. They will keep the License as a hedge in case Rossi actually appears on the market with a useful e-cat or descendant product, or they could sell the License back to Rossi if he would pay them enough, or they could auction it off. What’s it worth?

        Think, folks. A License has been granted for $10 million plus a contingent payment. That payment creates a debt, but the debt is not secured by the License unless the agreement specifies that. Does one imagine that the License could be revoked without returning what was paid?

        At this point, the GPT is dead unless the parties agree, so, definitely, the $89 million is not due, so even that improper excuse is dead.

        Rossi cancelled licenses, but there may have been a clause in the sale agreements allowing that. (Or licensees did not seriously object.) I have one report from a shareholder in a licensee who says that Rossi cancelled the License because they didn’t have a million dollars in sales in a year. Of course, he never provided them with product. He was to give them the license fee plus 10%. He says they are still waiting.

        One licensee made money, probably a profit. Ampenergo.

        • Michael W Wolf

          IH could not have possibly claimed any value to the IP. It would be an admission of the tech working. And yet claim fraud because the devise didn’t work? It wasn’t in there because it incriminated them. And you are really grasping at straws. Rossi collected some portion of the 89 million, and IH gave up IP rights. We will know soon about the IP rights and we will be able to have a better idea who came out on top. I am smiling right now, looks like Rossi won.

        • Omega Z

          I believe Ampenergo got some cash and a portion of IH shares.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            I think the deal was 50% of whatever was paid. Instead of this being paid by Rossi directly (I.e., one third), this was made a side-Agreement between IH and Ampenergo (AEG). As I recall the numbers, AEG was paid about $5 million and the balance in shares, which ended up as shares in IH Holdings Internstionsal, Ltd.

            When people write about the IH investment as $11.5 million, they neglect this. It was probably more like $17 million cash and some in shares (a relatively minor amount, but making AEG a shareholder in IHHI, thus receiving all shareholder information and, in the event an IHHI property hits the mother lode, a lot of money. IHHI fully owns IH, which fully owns IPH, the holding company which was intended to be the master company until Woodford insisted on the new company formed in the U.K., instead of the Netherlands (IPH).

        • Omega Z

          Consider this when talking of Rossi canceling the sales license.

          Rossi cancelled the License at “DARDENS” behest.

          That was part of Dardens terms for the original contract agreement in late 2012.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            I have seen no evidence of that. What sales license was “cancelled?” Ampenergo’s license was replaced and that is why Ampenergo was party to the Agreement, so that original license was respected. What Darden request? Reference?

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      My report has not been understood. Rossi was not looking happy or unhappy. He was cordial when I shook his hand and wished him well. The word I used for Darden was pensive.

      Both parties were ready to go. Normally, I’d think that settlement negotiations would be out of court. This was unexpected. I cannot be certain, but the appearance was that the initiative came from Lukacs, the newest member of the Rossi team, and possibly the attorney with the most experience. Pace responded. Lukacs had asked for delay for the start. Rossi never looked celebratory. Darden was … philosophical. I’m searching my memory for Annesser and Chaiken. When I said that the attorneys were smiling a lot, that may not have been all of them. I don’t remember Annesser smiling. Bernstein was smiling, for sure.

      The speed of it and impressions I got from Darden — and his son — and Vaughn — were that the settlement was very simple. You drop yours and I’ll drop mine. That would leave the 3rd party claims in place. But did IH wish to go through a trial for the relatively minor 3p claims? Probably not.

      Darden was confident of the rejection of the original Rossi claim, and, as a legal matter, I think he was right, and this was being effectively presented, very jury-friendly, very simple, and I know the evidence. It was solid. But winning a significant award on the counterclaims would be more difficult.

      Darden had not wanted to go to court. IH was not preparing to sue, and only a little preparing to defend. That Rossi would actually sue was a surprise, it didn’t make business sense.

      There was no serious risk for Darden going ahead, refusing to settle, other than legal expenses and the real possibility that they would be unable to recoup those.

      From the way it came up, this was a wild initiative by Lukacs, who had seen enough to know that there was little chance of prevailing on the Rossi claims, and so his goal became protecting Rossi from further losses, both for useless legal expenses, a possible judgment on the FUDTPA claim, and … mostly Rossi was careful, but may have strayed into perjury on several items where the evidence was strong … and a perjury prosecution by the state could bring on much more evidence. So Lukacs took the idea to Pace. Would they drop the counterclaims if Rossi dropped his own? I believed, very quickly, that there were no conditions to the settlement (but for reasons I have explained elsewhere, I thought it would be with prejudice, final). Altonaga was waiting, the jury was waiting, there was no time for complicated negotiations. I’m not sure who told me “no conditions” but I think I remember the phrase. Darden didn’t particularly look happy, but I read this as simply accepting that this long affair was over, the money that was spent is gone. The happiest faces were on the younger attorneys, particularly Bernstein, Lomax, Erika H. The 3p attorneys were getting everything they could hope for. Fabiani probably won’t get his last $10,000, because he destroyed the raw data that would have earned it. Johnson dodged a bullet. Uh, … IH could bill JMP for over a quarter million dollars, per the Term Sheet and those invoice requests…. No longer any reason not to. (I did not understand why they did not invoice. The invoices would be explicit that this was per request, IH had no other information about delivered power. It would have created a money trail.) But Johnson would not be on the hook personally. Rossi would pay it or JMP would go bankrupt…. just sayin’

      Now that I think more on it, I think that what I was told was “no conditions, the claims dropped, details will be worked out privately.” This obviously accepts status quo ante unless they agree otherwise, which is normal business.

      This I am sure of: this was not a move coming from IH believing they could not prevail.

      • You’re reading a lot into facial expressions and circumstances here.

        What we do have separately is that Engineer48 has claimed that two sources indicate that Rossi was very happy after the settlement. That seems to indicate he got some mixture of money and IP control. But maybe not.

        Darden and company may also be very happy with the settlement. Who knows? Just because he was pensive doesn’t mean Team Zero got pwned.

        Until we get more info it’s mostly educated guesses and speculation.

        • Omega Z

          mostly guesses and speculation…

      • Omega Z


        I think you read to much into this. For an out of court settlement, both parties had to give a little to get a little. Neither side happy, but terms agreeable.

        Darden never had $89M to pay and if you don’t have it, it’s very hard to come up with that kind of money for an unproven technology. Look at R. Mills. Close to $100 million in investments and it only took 20 years much of it from small obscure Power companies in small amounts. Brillouin has to beg for a few million here and there and already gave away 95% of his IP.

        Also, a total of $100 million for Rossi’s tech, especially if the Quark overcomes all his control problems is peanuts. Rossi surely felt like he was cheated. Especially watching the goings on behind the scenes. What Darden could do in renegotiation for the license is pay a 5% to 10% royalty. It cost nothing if it doesn’t work and he still has 90% if it does.

        Another consideration. Even if Dardens lawyers thought a 60/40 chance of winning, with a jury, nothing is certain. However, if they lost, Rossi stood to possibly obtain 3x$89M. Of course he wouldn’t be able collect it. You can’t take what 1 does not and wont have. And who knows. Maybe Rossi got his IP back. We’ll have to wait and see.

      • Ged

        And here you go again, fanfiction writing–making claims and speculations as if they were fact with no basis or proof whatsoever beyond imagination. I had hope :(. At least you are not viciously attacking people in slanderous ways quite yet, please don’t go all the way back to your bad habits.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      IH does not “own” Brillouin technology. They made a small investment some time back, it might not even have been IH, but Darden personally. They claim they never could get the Rossi technology to work; the tests that seemed to work had measurement problems. What happened today was straightforward: they decided that pursuing trial was not likely to recover costs. Recovering the original $11.5 million could be problematic. Estoppel. More likely, the FUDTPA claims ( there really were fraudulent claims about the customer) may have been won, but possibly were not worth the expenses. They made an investment. So far, it has not paid off directly. However, they got their feet wet. Their investment led to Woodford investing $50 million, so they amplified the money avallable for LENR research. (That $50 million was not for Rossi technology, it was for all the other stuff they were exploring.)

      They would rather be putting time and money into productive purposes than paying lawyers. The surprise here is that Rossi agreed, even though from a legal/tactical perspective it made sense. (Don’t throw good money after bad. Sunk cost fallacy. The suit was a bad idea from the beginning, it was full of holes, clearly filed in a rush, with major errors.)

      One more point. Darden is not vindictive. In my conversations with him, he was more perplexed by what had happened than angry. Dewey Weaver is angry. Weaver’s anger is understandable…Different personality. It wasn’t Weaver’s decision, it was Darden’s.

      • Dms

        I agree. Your statement about brillouin is accurate as is your conclusion. While it is possible Rossi has something, I would speculate he is truly a fraud. I acknowledge that is speculation but I see no evidence even in copycats that his claim is true.

        While I started out hopeful, I believe we have reached the end of this story. I would encourage this site to rebrand itself in more generic terms and disassociate from the Rossi name. While we would all love for Rossi to have what he claims, supporting a fraudster can only do harm in the long run.

        • Chapman

          yeah….. right….. like THAT’S gonna happen.

          We are celebrating here, and loving every minute of it.

          We don’t mind you crying, and pouting, if you must, but please keep the wailing to a minimum – the kids are sleeping…


      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Do you mean you think Darden did not make the decision?

        • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

          Hmm.. above I wrote that it was Darden’s decision to accept the proposed settlement, not Weaver’s. However, some think that the settlement came at Darden’s initiative. I had spoken with Darden in earlier days of the trial. I saw no sign of reluctance to proceed. Conversations with Darden were relatively open. We did discuss the situation, enough for me to sense his mood. Communication with Rossi was cordial and not deep enough to have any sense like that. Naturally, Darden probably knew that I was “IH-friendly” and I’m pretty sure that Rossi knew who I have been. Neither party revealed any reluctance to proceed, or fear. Darden was happy when there was a jury (expressed to me in a break).

          I don’t think the initiative to settle came from Darden. Nor do I think it came from Rossi. I think it came from Lukacs, who, perhaps more clearly than the others, saw the risks for his new client, and Lukacs saw a way out that might have been more difficult for Annesser and Chaiken to propose. Did Lukacs have Rossi’s permission to do what he did? I’m not sure. However, obviously, Lukacs was able to convince Rossi to let go, which probably released a flood of joy as soon as Rossi realized the practical consequences for his daily life and future. Rossi is known for extreme persistence, to the point of possibly damaging his health, he is at an age where men start falling over, dying from what amounts to stress.

          I don’t think Pace had much difficulty persuading Darden. For Darden to let go of maybe $20 million, and more likely much less, after expenses, is something he is accustomed to. His business is risky businesses, and these guy play the odds. If they stressed over losses, they would die. So they don’t, but they don’t bet everything on one or two ventures. Rossi was betting the farm on the lawsuit. There was a reasonable possibility that he could lose everything. Johnson, his friend, was at substantial risk, including risk to his profession (there is still some risk, but it is now reduced). While it may appear that Darden was at risk of a huge judgment, most attorneys would say that the risk was very low, based on clear evidence we have, and quite inadequate evidence in the other direction (proving fraud and thus an ability to pierce the corporate veil). This is so clear that any such judgment would be ripe for appeal if the jury instructions did not properly instruct the jury on the point).

          I think those claims were made by Annesser based on a Rossi opinion that surely Darden would immediately settle if he included him personally in the suit, and Cherokee. I think the actual effect was to harden Darden. Annesser is an aggressive attorney, not the kind who facilitates agreement. From deposition behavior, Chaiken is also aggressive. Not my favorite kind of law. Pace’s manner is not aggressive, but he pulled no punches in his opening. What Pace communicates, by his manner, and probably by reputation, is that he can be reasoned with.

          Just realized: Chaiken was lead attorney for Rossi. Annesser never had that title, but personally represented Rossi in the December correspondence where threat of suit was issued. (How about that? Instead of “is there some way we can agree, or can you explain your position so we can understand,” it was a threat. Gasoline on a smoldering fire.) Pace and Bell were leads for Darden et al. So why was that apparently unplanned conversation between Pace and Lukacs instead Pace and Chaiken? There was not one word in the trial history from Lukacs that was aggressive. I just looked up John Charles Lukacs. His bio points up mediation and dispute resolution experience. Yup.

      • LION

        Hi Abd, does this result mean you will now be home before August the 1st or are you off on HOLIDAY.
        Just an aside, if Woodford are serious about the future of this field they should be investing in people like me -EXPERIMENTERS- doing interesting work.

        • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

          Yes. Right now, probably home about July 13. Instead of the fundraising going to be not quite enough, Infusion Institute will have money left over, to be used for other III expenses.

          So a word about that, III was formed to identify useful LENR research, especially research likely to generate clear evidence, either way (when our concern is science, “positive” and “negative” can be oversimplifications. So-called “negative” results can be quite valuable, if the work is done carefully. The plan is to first identify the work to be done (including public discussion in this phase.)

          Many projects might be created. At some point, a lab creates a specific proposal for work they see themselves as wanting to do. They create a bid, to do that work for X dollars. More than one lab might make a bid.

          Then III makes these proposals available to sources of funding. The finding sources make actual funding decisions, and choose the lab to be funded, and any agreement is between them.

          Infusion Institute’s job is to set up communication. It is not to become a Governor of Research. It may help labs write proposals. As presently conceived, III is supporting my work, but that is not the ultimate goal, I have been asking for people to take on service and leadership roles for years. There are many who will complain about what is wrong or missing, but few who will supply it.

          Fortunately, we only need a few people willing to do the work. In theory, the lost opportunity cost of delay in practical application is about a trillion dollars a year, which must be discounted for the possibility that it isn’t actually possible. Estimating that is difficult. I think it is about fifty percent. It doesn’t really matter. It is possible, almost certainly, but it is not certain, as shown by the lack of market success in spite of many efforts for many years.

          Consortia of part-time amateurs may also play a role. To be truly useful, they must be willing to learn and grow snd develop professionalism. Discipline, patience, caution. Some involved with MFMP seem to be doing this.

          I expect to meet with scientists involved in LENR in D.C. on my way home. My work is about building bridges and cooperation, not competition.

          One of the many rewards I experience is the opportunity to meet pioneers in the field, abd to be working on something that may make a difference for humanity. Meanwhile, it’s fun!

          • LION

            Hi Abd, will contact you afterJuly 13th then and not wait till Aug the 1st, THANKS.

      • Ged

        And here you go again, fanfiction writing–making claims and speculations with no basis or proof whatsoever beyond imagination. I had hope :(. At least you are not viciously attacking people in slander pus ways quite yet, please don’t go all the way back to your bad habits.

      • Ged

        Darden and IH are one in the same in practice, he owns it and commands it, so the claim about Brillouin is now unintentionally confirmed as accurate for Darden’s actions by you. Good job.

        • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

          Thanks. IH, however does not own Brillouin IP. They probably know little about it. They do have the right to sublicense Rossi IP, that is part of what they paid for in securing the license. But I don’t think Brillouin would be interested. I’ve met Godes. He is very much independent, with little backing from IH. I see people coming up with complicated explanations that rely on weak inferences. If people make investment decisions on stuff like this, they well soon be “separated from their money.”

  • Jas

    So what happens now to other companies that IH have invested in? If IH shared secrets with Brilliouin for example.

    • mcloki

      Masssive lawsuits if you share IP that’s not your own.

      • Jas

        That would seem obvious but perhaps that is part of the settlement?

        • mcloki

          Why give up the potential to license the technology?

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      And their massive research center in Raleigh, ha ha ha

  • Hi all

    Rossi’s Lawyers all set to fight the court case, time line up on boards, markers, and notes, all lawyers present, ready and raring to go.

    IH Lawyers, only chief representatives of the defendants there. Not prepared to go to trial, they have decided to settle.

    You settle when you can not win the case.

    Ergo IH knew they could not win.

    What did the defendants offer to get the plaintiffs to agree to the settlement?
    $89 Million Plus costs?
    Return of all rights to the IP?
    Return of all rights to the markets?
    More than the $89 Million Plus costs?

    The only thing we can be certain of is:
    Darden was serious faced and did not want to talk to anyone.
    Rossi was smiling and shaking peoples hands.

    By all accounts Rossi is very happy indeed, and currently celebrating.

    Kind Regards Walker

    • Buck


      I would start with what Rossi purportedly offered over this last year . . . the return of the $11.5 million for tearing up the License/IP agreement. I would add to this Rossi’s PR NewsWire piece for the revocation of the License agreement.

      Rossi’s singular focus on clawing back License/IP rights and discounting the importance of keeping the $$$ suggests that Rossi might even relinquish a demand for payment of legal fees IF there is ironclad revocation of the License/IP rights. I think Rossi is intelligent enough to know that the value of LENR products in the markets transforms the “loss” of the $$$ into losing small pocket change.

    • You settle when you can not win the case.
      ***Not necessarily true. You settle when it’s in your best interest to do so. They had already paid maybe $5M(?) in legal fees and with a 5 week long trial it could easily double. The most probable outcome was that IH would win, and get maybe a $1M judgement. So you spend $10M to get a $1M judgement? It’s not worth it.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      I saw no evidence the IH was not prepared to fight. While I cannot be sure that Pace privately prompted Lukacs to ask for a delay so they could talk, it did not look that way. It is the nature of what they came up with that it cannot be used to impeach either party, beyond this: Rossi cannot now claim that IH violated the contract, not as to anything past, and IH cannot claim that Rossi defrauded them. Neither one of these establishes fact, only clear estoppel. It’s over. While I cannot be certain that there was no secret agreement, given the context and the prior positions of the parties and yeh evidence and arguments already in court, both parties were fully determined to go ahead. Damn the torpedoes! We, the public, can still go over the evidence and arguments that were published. We will eventually have a transcript of what was said on open court (not the closed final session.) if we have a need to know, we can do the work to find out, and what we will then know can be more solid than a jury decision. What will be missing is careful legal examination and cross-examination, but there is a lot that is quite clear in the depositions, and only a little that is seriously unclear ( even though some of those thins may be interesting.) There was spoliation ( which was obvious as soon as we had only a little detail.) again, if we need to know, we can find out. If we just want to bloviate and attack, we remain free in some places, not in others. What I’m seeing is many making up stories about what happened that don’t match what I saw in person. This is not surprising. Many people do that commonly. I might have missed something or misinterpreted something, and with that idea, you can impeach any evidence. So people who want to argue may do so indefinitely. Rossi, however, says the war is over. How about actually taking him at his word?

      Summary as ro what we know happened. Claims and counterclaims dismissed by stipulation of the parties. Probably with prejudice, I.e. The claims and counterclaims are withdrawn, dead, moot, and cannot be raised again. Only something new. If there were any other conditions, negotiation and acceptance would have been difficult. This restores the possibility (though not probability) of future cooperation. As as example, if Rossi and IH agree on writing on a specified GPT — or better-designed test — Rossi might still get $89 million, or more, whatever they agree upon. I’m not expecting this, but pointing out that it is not impossible. Meanwhile, regardless, Rossi remains free to pursue plenty of opportunities. In Mercato veritas. IH still has money left from Woodford to pursue what the Woodford investment was clearly intended for, other possible LENR technology. I think they still have a license, but this is probably moot, unless Rossi pulls a wabbit out of his hat, in which case, that would be the time to resolve any disputes. If there is a trillion dollars at stake, don’t screw with the millions, even hundreds of millions.

  • Chapman

    I know you all want to hear my take on this, but I am still laughing hysterically, and can not type right now…

    • Chapman

      Don’t hold your breath waiting… This might take a few days.

      GOD!!! My ribs hurt… 🙂

      I haven’t laughed this hard since, well… the evening of November 8, 2016!!!

      • Mike Rion

        Amen to that brother.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Hmm, seems to me that since Rossi was the one to initiate the suit, IH payed him off. The reason is that IH could not discredit Penon. Penon was indeed the last say imo. Whether IH has payed the full amount is debatable. It also means Rossi revoking IH license rights still stands. IH would have to sue Rossi to change that. Unless it is part of the NDA of course. We will be able to find out if IH retain their licensing rights. It will say a lot about who had the upper hand in the NDA I think. I don’t ever remember a settlement going against the plaintiff. The defendants usually settle with an NDA to prevent a public relations disaster. Anyone disagree?

    • I basically agree. I’d say that IH have paid enough for Rossi’s full legal bill plus a few million more. Maybe $20M in all.

      Why? IH’s lawyers might well have noticed the body language of the jurors and that they were already thinking of Rossi as David to IH’s Goliath and that they just weren’t going to bother grappling with all the incredible, technical and legal complications that only people like us – the LENR junkies – have been following.

      • Chapman

        How much you wanna bet that the settlement was limited to the resources IH had available WITHOUT tapping the Woodford funds.

        This way IH can direct the Woodford funds to their other energy investments, and save legal face. It means Woodford funds are actually “invested” and have a chance to generate a return. If Darden had lost, and been forced to dip into Woodford funds to pay a judgement, it would mean that all those retirement funds were pissed away with no hope of recovery, and if that had happened there would have been hell to pay legally for Darden.

      • Rene

        Now we know what the toupee was for – a bit of jury nudging. 🙂
        There are not that many reasons to settle at the beginning of a trial. One is financial and the other is that it becomes clear to one or both parties that a lot of nasty stuff will get uncovered under testimony. These are evidence that in a tort trial would be germane on a contract breech basis, but nevertheless would leave a hard testimony trail for potential criminal investigations at a future date.
        As for a settlement, we will see soon enough if Rossi talks about marketing worldwide. Perhaps both he and IH settled to have nonexclusive rights to market LENRish devices worldwide.

  • cashmemorz

    To me this all feels like a game of chicken from the side of Darden/IH. Darden kept going with the court case until the last minute before he would have to start showing all his evidence, WHICH WE ALL AGREE WAS FULL OF HOLES. At the last minute, just as the first real court case day one was starting to get into swing, Darden and his lawyers decide to “fess up” to the judge and other lawyers and Rossi, that IH would rather settle. But no one is to know the reason so as to not shame Daren, IH, Cherokee and the rest of his bunch. That part has to be quiet so that it doesn’t get out to the most important people in Darden’s life, the investors and his son. The rest is just how much to pay off Rossi to keep quiet. This pay off implies just enough to get out without overspending anything beyond the minimum. Economics is another high priority after saving face. Just how much I would bet that Darden would rather cut his losses by not moving money one way or the other. Just let Rossi have what they already gave him and revise the IP to be on paper only, n o real details needed to actually make Darden’s E-CAT w ork. Anyways, some day, sombody may actually figure it all out and it might just work, if Brillouin hasn’t done so already. Whatever Rossi gave IH, working or not, is just on paper. IP can be worth other than the actual IP. It can be leveraged to show investors that, yes, IH and or Cherokee have another IP from another source, Leonardo, but the details are “confidential”. Investors only need to know that there is one more confirmation of LENR working and for IH/Cherokee that can be enough to spin as something positive to the investors. Its what the investors had been told all along, anyways so its not a stretch to continue along the same line of continuing the same propaganda to the investors. That will be enough for new invsetors who have no knowledge of the trial and there was actually nothing that came out in the short lived trial to be of any consequence to see, for investors, reporters or anyone but the lawyers. And they know how much to not talk if they are paid in full.

    Edit: Since Rossi looks happy and Darden not, I speculate that Darden agreed to pay the 98 million to settle. This implies Darden/IH keeps the IP of the E-CAT, obsolete tech or not. Rossi would not settle. Only other way out is for Rossi to give back the money for IP and IH losses IP altogether.

    • John

      Anyone else see a pattern? We waited for the 1 yr testing, and nothing happened when it was completed Then we had to wait for the penon report, and nothing happened when it was finally released. Then we had to wait 18+ months for the trial, then nothing happened. We’ve been waiting and watching,but every time we think we have reached a milestone, nothing happens. As exciting as this technology is, we have not seen anything that substantiates this as a viable technology.

      I’m curious, what’s the next milestone we can focus on, and then nothing will happen. Granted, we are mere spectators, and have no stake in the matter, but the more we are told “I can’t tell you yet”, the more doubt I have.

      • Luca Meli

        I strongly support your opinion

      • The next thing we’ll have to wait for and have it not happen is for new investors to build a factory somewhere and sell LENR boxes. In mercato veritas.

        • Chapman

          Next thing we will never see is a public apology to Rossi from weaver and crew…

          • I’m still waiting for MIT to apologize for their fudged results from 1990.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Kevmo,

          Actually I have been in contact with Rossi and have stated my desire to re-engage selling and installing Leonardo built and QuarkX based reactors to my clients.

          I had a big sale almost signed when the lawsuit happened and they decided to delay the program.

          Rossi never asked for money up front, while hard nose steam engineers and myself were getting ready to visit Florida and test a 1MW plant as part of my clients due diligence process.

          • I wish you the best of luck. There was one project in Sweden where it was going to be a hot bath with the water heated up by an Ecat. Basically a relaxing demo plant where you could watch the Ecat in operation, enjoy the steam/hot water, drink some desalinated water, enjoy an expensive cup of Parke Tea (I think it was Parke who demanded that LENR produce a cup of hot tea), and go home and tell your friends that LENR is real.

    • Chapman

      Come on Cash, you and I both know the truth…

      Darden read my post yesterday and realized all hope was lost! 🙂

      You are welcome, Rossi!!!

      [calm down everyone… it’s a JOKE!]

      • Engineer48

        Hey Chapman,

        You mean the IH and Rossi teams read my statement on the flow rate of the pump being several times the published flow rate if operated at atmo conditions.

        That statement and evidence I presented totally destroyed the IH lawyer speak claiming a 5,000 g/d capacity.

        Which destroyed their defence.

        • Chapman

          Sir, in all seriousness, I have read all your technical posts on the matter, and I do not doubt for a moment that your clear and precise dissection of their false claims made a major impact.

          I have suspicions that one of the purposes for us being periodically trolled by the FUD-monkeys was a deliberate effort to float trial balloons and see how well various crackpot claims withstood scrutiny. But the joke was on them! Because you shot each and every one down like a veteran sniper at a carnival midway shooting gallery!

          I claimed credit as a joke, but giving you credit, and great respect, for your impressive analysis is dead serious.

          Well done Sir, WELL DONE!

      • cashmemorz

        There is a time and place for everything. So, here , goes…. Ha, ha, ha. Now get back to work.

  • Adam Lepczak

    Uber Sharks like IH and Venture Capital Firms in general have full access to top shelf lawyers and spin masters. Also they’re not in the business to be losing capital. They do not settle unless its absolutely necessary. It’s a huge win for Rossi.

    • help_lenr

      What you say is only a speculation. I believe that Rossi compromised a bit in order to get rid of the bad partnership with IH/CHEROKEE.

  • Frank Acland

    Sorry folks, my website theme got messed up again, so we’ll have to carry on with this one until I get it sorted out. Now back to the topic at hand …

  • hep_lenr

    I hope that in the settlment the contract between IG/CHEROKEE and Rossi is _canceled_. Even if Rossi does not get 89 Million $ and returns to IH 11.5 million US$ — it is better for him not be bound in any way to IH/CHEROKEE because if he is bound they will block the development of E-CAT, IH/CHEROKEE has no intention to invest more in Rossi’s technology.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Help,

      There is no contract. It is a conditional License Agreement that Leonard has cancelled.

      IH had ample time to evaluate the Rossi IP and as far as we know. IH never asked Rossi for any of the money they had paid him back.

  • I want to share my thoughts on all this, but in perfect honesty they are all over the place.

    I guess what it feels like to me is that Rossi has successfully nullified IH’s rights to E-Cat IP and perhaps got some $$$ to boot… maybe lawyers fees. If IH sincerely believes Rossi is a fraudster then his IP is worthless to them and easily forfeited. If Rossi believes his E-Cats work then that is the piece most valuable to him. Moreover, I can see IH calculating that throwing some money at Rossi would be cheaper than continuing the trial and paying their own lawyers plus a non-negligible chance that the jury would give a high reward to Rossi.

    Also on my mind are the rumors of success surrounding Uppsala, Gullstrom’s involvement with the QX and Fabiani popping up on the Uppsala roster.

    We’ll see how the parties comport themselves from this point. They can’t talk about the settlement directly, but through official statements and other actions we will probably be able to piece together what transpired. It’ll just take some time.

    • Ged

      It is quite the twist. But annoying to not get a full airing if evidence in court. We gained a lot from the docket at least, but this settlement will just have to remain a mysterious conclusion. I see team IH doing damage control below, while Rossi just moves on. So, we’ll have to do as you say and just watch how each group repositions themselves and moves onward. Also be interesting to see what Woodford says.

      • I’m happy with the info we did get. Quite a bit of behind the curtain stuff.

        And now we have received a great present. Rossi is free to go public with the QX before the end of the year. If IH had won outright he might have been stuck playing 20-dimensional chess with them trying to get the IP back and the QX would be indefinitely stalled. Now there is nothing in the way. If the QX is not presented 4Q17 then we’ll have every reason to believe it was just BS posturing for the lawsuit.

        • Ged

          Very true on all points! Finally back to business.

    • Brent Buckner

      I’m not so sure that IH’s legal claim to the E-Cat IP would be worthless even if the E-Cat IP were ineffective. There’s a hypothetical scenario in which Brillouin has something not worthless and IH would want to have some demonstrable shield against a lawsuit claiming invalid transfer of E-Cat IP to Brillouin.

  • help_lenr

    It is time now for quarkx demo, hopfully un this year 2017.

    Leave the obsolete 1st generation E-Cat behind.

    • Steve D

      Interesting though, Rossi will be free to return to work full time on his E-Cat. He hasn’t spoken much about the e-cat (in progress terms) for a long time with the Quark getting all of the attention. It suggests that the e-cat IP is now exclusively his. Of course there is the argument that the one IP covers both units.

    • Oh no please not!
      I would be the 1st generation in large quantities if it every would become buyable!!!

      • help_lenr

        My guess is that 1st generation E-Cat needs a lot of maintenance which create overhead cost 2-3 times the cost of fuel (the maintenace problems were the main reason why A Rossi had only 4-5 hours for sleep each day during the 1 year experiment).

        I recall that — upon leaked documents about the 1 year test — the cost of fuel was 1 cent per kilowatt hour but the maintenace cost was 3 cents per kilowatt. I believe that the “5-sigma test” running now is intended to reduce the maintenance cost to a tiny value.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Help,

      Rossi has informed me that all Leonardo plant production will be using QuartkX reactor modules.

      So the 1MW ECat plant manufactured and owned by IH is now obsolete.

      As IH claim it did not work and as such is of little commercial value to them, I wonder if IH would consider selling it as I would consider buying it, well a few of the smaller 10kW Blue Cats and the control boxes for sure.

  • bfast

    Oh I hope that Rossi gets back on the trail of LENR. The first good quality public demo of LENR has not surfaced. I would love it if Rossi were the first to pull it off. That said, MFMP and the Indian guys may pull it off first. We’ll see.

    • Rossi isn’t going to be the one to generate “The first good quality public demo of LENR “. He is on record saying that he never wanted to do any demos in the first place, just to paying customers. But his friend Focardi got cancer and wanted the recognition, so Rossi agreed to do a couple of (poorly executed) public demos. Rossi isn’t a scientist, he’s a businessman.

  • Luca Meli

    NDA? Again? No words…

  • Chapman

    7 hours…
    laughing still…
    can’t type…
    can’t see straight…
    oops. i think i peed a little…

    for now, i give you THIS…

    • clovis ray

      Me too chapman as they say happy happy happy.

  • Engineer48

    My advise to all:

    È tempo di impegnare il futuro

    When Rossi / Leonardo are ready to ship low temp ECat or high temp QuarkX reactors, my team stands ready to find the clients, design, install and commission the plants and provide the end user with cradle to grave support.

    • Mats002

      Rossi already has the clients – he has collected pre-orders since 2011 – I am among the first on the list. But you are welcome to make the installation and take the long term support. I pay the check 😉

      • Engineer48

        Hi Mats2,

        I also ordered 4 x home ECats the day that offer was opened.

        Also have commercial clients, one being a large commercial laundry that would be ideal for a low temp +100C 1MW ECat plant. Have discussed this with Andrea before the lawsuit messed things up.

        We discussed sending my team & I to Flordia to get trained to do the installs & long term maint & support.

        • Bruce__H

          Have you paid any money yet?

          • Hi all

            In reply to Bruce__H

            Rossi said he would not ask anyone for until there was a commercial product.

            There were investors who offered buy the rights to sale of the technology, but Rossi required them to put their money in an escrow account out of Rossi’s reach until he had a commercial product they could sell. Then they would be required to invest the escrow money into building factories. And pay him his license per unit sold plus the rights money in I think it was the first year.

            One of the Australian investors said something about it.

            Then Darden came along tested the Ecat in Italy then offered Rossi the $100 million deal. IH then tried to get all other markets to sell to them; buying up the escrow investments at the bank interest rate plus a considerable profit to the original investors. Not all chose to sell.

            Kind Regards Walker

          • Engineer48

            Hi Bruce,


            Rossi has never asked for money in advance.

    • GiveADogABone
      Tie a number of Quarkx to an absorption refrigerator and solve the South Australian power crisis which is predominantly one caused by conventional air conditioners?

      • Omega Z

        predominantly one caused by conventional air conditioners?
        OR predominantly one caused by a lack of available electricity…

        Note- Small scale(as in residential) are not very economical. The lifetime costs exceed electrical cost. However, should electricity reach a $1 per kilowatt hour, that would change. Just saying. Also- I think Australia is half way there.

        • GiveADogABone

          The grid system peak demand in SA is dominated by the folks returning home at end of work each day in summer and all switching on their air-conditioners which then all simultaneously run flat out until the house temperatures gets down to their set points. At this time of day solar generation is declining as well. The resulting demand surge is a major problem and largely unnecessary.

          First Fix:
          Their are more sensible ways to run air conditioners than this but nothing currently stops people from this inane group behaviour. The amount of plant on the grid needed to support this behaviour is large and the capacity factor of it is low. The major cost is in the generating plant with low capacity factor.

          Second fix:
          Even better is to stop selling electrically powered air conditioners and use the absorption principle powered by Quarkx?

          • Engineer48

            HI GADAB,

            I do some work for the folks that own and run the Australian electricity system.

            SA is being gamed by a few players in the market and causing very high price spikes in the pool price. Plus some generators shut down some of their capacity to force prices up. One 700MW thermal plant was just decommissioned and that has caused constrained supply issues.

            Add to that interconnector down time and upgrades that can and do generate constrained supply.

            Should add that when the SA assets were state owned, it was milked as a cash cow and very little money when back into maintaining the grid. Today massive investment is being made by the private owners to maintain and upgrade the grid, because of the past state gov milking, and that cost is passed onto consumers.

            For sure peak demand is an issue but that has been there for years and has not just started.

          • cashmemorz

            Ontario, Canada government got out of the government controlled electric power supply and control and then prices went up 4x. People complained so government covers 3/4 of the cost by taking out a mortgage with the new private companies by locking in the price at 1/4 what the private owners are actually charging and mortgage the remaining 3/4 for 30 years. End result we will be forced to pay for 30 years in Ontario as users of on grid privately owned electricity. If I and enough others get a LENR powered electricity producing plant then the government will be forced to include my type also in the mortgage payoff. So I, as a LENR user, will be in fact, be paying a little more than the one just using grid power. They have effectively locked us out of the LENR market, come hell or high or high water. Only solution is to vote in a green party if that is possible. Onlyway out is everyone or enough individuals get off grid and force the government to renegotiate the mortgage with the private owners on behalf of the LENR users. I don’t think the private owners will agree to anything lessthan full compensation for losses incurred in the multibillion dollar investment in the grid during sale by the government. What to do?

    • Toussaint françois

      And I wish you success ! Can’t wait to see the E-CAT X demo !

    • cashmemorz

      How dependable is the theory behind E-CAT or Quark-X to provide such long term support?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Cash,

        The real answer is unknown. However the only thing which seems to degrade is the fuel and it can be changed.

        So what is the life of a well engineered thermal power plant? 40-50 years?

        • cashmemorz

          The main reaon for asking and commenting regarding LENR and E-CAT Quark-X is to get a feel of how Rossi’s devices compoare to thos of Brilliant Light and Power, the Suncell. So far it is about theory.. E-Cat therory is Standard Model physics, Suncell is untried physics. On the other hand, Trhe E-Cat has a theory according to what Rossi describes based on physicist he has contacted. The Suncell and several other things Randell Mills has seem to work tightly in line with his Grand Unified Theory- Classical Physics. Prediction based and all working. But being new and not “established” physics, that is proven by many experiments done by an extrensive population of specialists as was done within the Standard Model gives Rossi’s devices a seemingly higher authoritative base. But I see too many errors in the how the Standard Model has developed. That makes both sides, SM and GUT-CP somewhat iffy at this time from a purely theoretical viewpoint. So what is left is to try each kind of device in the field for a year or two and see what breaks down, if it breaks down and any side effects. The amount of power and energy and that side of it has been beaten to death and we know what to expect. now it starts to be the side issues of practical use.

          Safety should be first. Do we need lead shielding? If not, should a lead wall be on hand just in case. Or keep the central items in a pit, until there is high assurance those two precautions are rarely or never needed. Going by the year long test I would expect not. But I would still do something like that for the first dozen installations. I would hate to see someone get seriously hurt because such precautions were not thought of. Rossi had some idea of what to expect and what to do in a heart beat. Not every engineer or technician in the first few installations will be as expert as Rossi. At least I would not count on it. It could set back LENR severely. And we all want this to succeed, I am sure.

          • Mills goes out of his way not to allow nuclear radiation measurements because if there are ANY, his theory is toast. Rossi doesn’t like you taking radiation measurements because a skilled tester can narrow down which reactions are taking place in his box, and he is adamant about keeping that part hidden from his competitors.

          • cashmemorz

            So what will Mills do when his Suncell is installed in a clients plant and the client decides to measure any radiation in the area of the Suncell? Mills can’t stop that and everyone knows that. Mills won’t be installing the Suncell with several feet of lead around it at every installation. If he even tried to prevent clients from taking such readings by stating so in the lease contract, no client would let their lawyere to permit such restrictions on the safety of their workers. No client would put up with that if it did happen. So someone will eventually, probably very soon after installation, do just that. And I’m sure Mills has thought of that and that he can’t in reality stop that. So your argument doesn’t go very far in practical scenarios. Same applies to Rossi’s devices. And if anyone got readings of radiation or anything else out of the ordinary, there will be big news in the media and then critics like you will be very happy. But it won’t happen, because neither Rossi, Mills or anyone else would be cutting their own throat if they let a device out into the market that was known to have issues that could affect users negatively.

          • It isn’t an argument. If Mills has thought of it and can’t stop it then he knows his theory is flat wrong. Mills has far more invested in his theory than Rossi does.

          • cashmemorz

            Your trying to make it sound as if that is what is actually what is happening. You started out with claiming Mills might have radiation coming from his device. THis point of yours is based on my attempt make sure that if there is no radiation in Mills’ device that it must be conclusively shown to be such, just in case there is a small chance of that happening. Now you are making it sound as if that is a fact, there is actually that danger in his device. It all started as a possibility, remember? Then based on that assumption you now claim that his whole theory is wrong. That is a leap from one minor supposition to a second supposition that covers a major point about his theory. So what you have done is built up a minor straw man based on being careful in that area to knock down another straw man of your own making .You are, in the end, the one grasping at straws to make others think what you state is a major point when in fact you have just made it all up. Your are therefore either illogical in your process of argument or are just looking to knock down someone for some negative agenda about energy being produced by the kinds of devices covered by this and similar forum. And not worthy of considered argument regarding this or any other topic.

          • Mills has been making people sign NDAs saying they will not test his devices for radiation, for over a decade.

          • cashmemorz

            And the other side of that: several who have validated all aspects of the theory:

            Rowan University’s report

            Rowan University’s report II

            UNC Asheville’s report

            University of Illinois report

            Those are the hard core validators..

            Then there are the high level experts working for Brilliant Light and Power who had to do some high quality due diligence before allowing themselves to get involved with something so different from the Standard Model, in order to not risk their reputation on something that looks like out of left field or even a scam:

            and others who are willing to consider BrLP as a high quality research center:

            Brilliant Light and Power, is listed on NJBiz’s top research centers:
            Ranking: 15/20/; Previous NR/20;
            Research Center: Brilliant Light Power;
            Website:; Year Est.: 1991; Address: 493 Old Trenton Road, Cranbury (East Windsor), 08512
            Phone | Fax: (609) 490-1090 | (609) 490-1066;
            Senior Executive(s): William R. Good, Randell L. Mills
            Head(s) of Research | Research Type(s) Focus: Randell L.Mills | Basic, Clean energy, renewable energy, research and development, engineering, thermal energy and electrical generation; N.J. Researchers: 10

            Media Contact
            Lynn Kline


            pdf-2017 research centers:

            A critical look at the theory:

            A skeptics take on BrLP:


            For the lectures themselves, by others, see:


            Credentials of the above lecturer:


            A lecture by Dr. Mills at Fresno State U.:


          • I wish them all the best and hope they are successful.

      • Theory isn’t the issue. Plenty of stove manufacturers sold $Billions worth of stoves without knowing the theory of plasma nor fire. Can you explain fire?

        We are at the point where LENR seems to work but we don’t know why; similar to High Temperature Superconductivity, it works and we don’t know why. The Wright brothers weren’t known for their aerodynamic theory, they were known because they built something that flew.

        • cashmemorz

          Sure. But who wants a device based on who knows what physics and produces energy. If a new device using unknown physics decides to go wrong, which way will the energy go? Towards the ground or towards you? Just taking something new and maybe a little weird on faith is ok if you are willing. Not me. Not until I have some idea what it is really doing. And more importantly, what it might do if it goes wrong. With Randell Mills and his hydrinmos the expectation is the hydrogen becomes a denser smaller version of hydrogen and will have actions based on that. So far it seems that the hydrinos being smaller than regular hydrogen, pass thruogh most masterials and eventuaslly into intergalactic space wher they asre the perported dark matter. If the machine stops working this process stops. If it goes haywire, then the most that might happen is there will be a lot more light produced and commensurate heat and more hyrinos. And then I act accordingly. Like moving away until the technician arrives. Or pull the plug.
          With Rossi’s device, being based on, as far as I know, defunct and largely in error physics, I don’t know what to expect it it goes wrong.

          • It’s a lot like replacing your wood burning stove (I’m looking directly at one right now) with Natural Gas. Do you know the theory behind gas flames and plasma and all that? Does it prevent you from using a Natural Gas Stove or Heater? No.

            And like Natural Gas, a LENR stove/heater just dies if you pull the plug, or it melts down if the stuff hits the fan while you’re on vacation. Also like natural gas, there’s only been very very few explosions, apparently under perfect conditions.

            So there you have it, a smoky wood-burning stove that costs $1000/year to operate and is technically illegal now in the San Francisco Bay Area, or a gas stove that costs less than half that to operate, or a LENR stove (in the future) that costs pennies to operate. You can drive around with a smoky, hugely expensive, wood-burning steam engine, a gas engine getting 25MPG, or a LENR engine getting the equivalent of 1000MPG when the time comes. 50 years from now there will be someone who drives his gasoline car to his house that has propane tank gas stoves while commenting on the internet about the evils of LENR. And he won’t know how flames work nor LENR.

          • Warthog

            “But who wants a device based on who knows what physics and produces
            energy. If a new device using unknown physics decides to go wrong, which
            way will the energy go”

            Those questions are NEVER answered by accessing theoretical concepts. They are answered by building and testing working devices.

    • Yes indeed. I’m so tired of the squabbling in the world. As someone said above it’s not just the Ecat but its one new development that holds so much promise for really creating a hugely positive future.

  • Chapman

    Anyone hear from Mats Lewan?

    • Mats002

      Yes – he will make an update after the official statement of the settled parties.

  • pg

    Ok, now what?

  • georgehants

    There is only one thing that matters, seven years and no nearer knowing if we have Cold Fusion.
    The American way has made a joke of itself, Rossi has made a joke of himself, the whole thing if it where not so serious would be nothing but a joke and yet people continue to comment as if the situation has some kind of normality.
    It is insane to any logical, practical mind.
    Please lets not have anymore half-witted Rossi says, just Facts on Cold Fusion.

    • William D. Fleming

      There are many promising new technologies being developed by various companies, and many of those are being developed in secret.

      My point is that it seems irrational to obsess over cold fusion and ignore all the other emerging developments, some of which might be equally helpful to mankind. When I examine my own obsession with cold fusion I think it was initially prompted by the excitement of the 1998 revelation and it has been increased by the teasing nature of the Rossi saga. We are like children, eagerly waiting for Christmas.

      IMO, the happiest and most productive approach for us sideline observers would be to maintain balance, serenity and optimism, and to give encouragement and support. Few of us are able to materially influence the development, and we certainly have no control over the actions of Andrea Rossi. Making negative judgements about the man will have no effect except to foster unhappiness within ourselves.

      • georgehants

        William, thank you, I disagree we all know what is fair and good, we can all do our bit, no matter how small to put right the terrible suffering by many in the developed countries and more so in the poor countries.
        As you say Cold Fusion is just one example among many.

        • Warthog

          “…we all know what is fair and good,”

          We do?? Does that include putting millions of people in prison camps, and killing millions more?? The only social systems in which that has happened are socialist, not capitalist. See N. Korea vs S. Korea. Or Venezuela. How many examples to you need??

          • georgehants

            Warthog, you keep repeating repetitive rubbish, I am suggesting a fully democratic caring and sharing society that has never existed.
            Please try and bring yourself up to the level of conversation.

          • Warthog

            Nice alliteraton, though I would say that it is you who are “repeating repetitive rubbish”.

          • Buck

            Be careful there . . . you are not being mindful of history. There are many examples of how capitalism can be equally depraved in its pursuit of Capital and Profit.

          • Warthog

            “There are many examples of how capitalism can be equally depraved in its pursuit of Capital and Profit.”

            Really??? Please list some. Capitalism has been responsible for many bad things, but I am unaware of any on the scale of Nazi Germany, the USSR, Communist China, Cambodia, Cuba, Venezuela, and probably many others.

          • invient

            Besides slavery in the US (still allowed under the 13th amendment), and Japanese Interment, you would be right…

            How many examples do you need?

          • Warthog

            Neither of those involved enough people to even create a blip in the numbers. Were they “bad things”?? Absolutely yes. But they were innocuous by comparison to socialism. The ONLY “-ism” that is even remotely comparable is “colonialism” in toto.

            Data here:


    • Warthog

      So, George, please describe for us the system that is so much better than the “American way” that is such a joke. Enlighten us with the outpouring of all those logical, practical minds. Show us where this system is in practice………

      • invient

        Paul Cockshotts “Towards a new socialism.” Athenian democracy, an adaptive planned economy which uses labor tokens and a consumer market to respond to changes in technology, consumer wants, and ecological constraints. Public goods are funded by a flat tax and politically controlled by what Cockshott calls Demarchy.

        You probably wont care for the first presenter, as Roberts is obviously a marxist, even though his analysis is IMO spot on.

        Mark Blyth makes the case in this video that technological adoption is kept low in production because wages since the Reagan/Thatcher/Neoliberal revolution have been stagnate (cheap labor is more profitable than the capital investment into machinery and maintenance costs)… largely because globalization has opened the labor pool to the point that labor has zero bargaining power, and then shows a graph from the central bank of japan which shows that this is the normal feature of the system and that in accordance with Piketty, the golden era of the system (1950-1970) was an aberration that is not going to return.

        Show me where in practice is capitalism, it seems all we have are an amalgamation of parts which don’t make a coherent whole. The marginalist school of thought for capitalism cannot exist in the real world, it is inconsistent even in its own mathematical foundations (SMD conditions).

        • Warthog

          Show me where in practice is your “new socialism”. You guys are great at waving your hands in the air about some theoretical fantasy involving socialism dreamt up by people who have never actually produced anything but hot air. To quote an old hamburger commercial “where’s the beef?” Show me a working example.


          OK, I’ve watched a few minutes of the video. Do you “really” expect me to take seriously something put out by guys who don’t even have the sense rent a couple of folding tables, but put slabs of plywood/particle board on folding sawhorses??

          “technological adoption is kept low” Seriously??? WHEN has the rate of technological adoption ever been higher??

          • invient

            Since you require an example, I have asked that you meet your own requirements and show me an actually existing purely capitalist example.

            Theoretical fantasy? What is the macroeconomic micro-foundations but a theoretical fantasy, as proved by the SMD conditions… You talk of waving hands, but at least our eyes are not covered like those of capitalist theorists.

          • William D. Fleming

            What you are calling capitalism is not some scheme invented by anyone. The modern world of business is just an outgrowth of the free market–people trading unhindered without the iron hand of government meddlers. Humans have traded since time immemorial. Free trading around the world has brought immeasurable well-being to people everywhere, while artificial and short-sighted economic schemes backed by authoritarian governments have resulted only in poverty and starvation.

          • Warthog

            I do not (and never have) claimed that “pure capitalism” is even possible. I doubt that it is. But the “impure” version that exists seems to work. Socialism, OTOH, does NOT work and never has, either on a micro or macro scale. History has shown this repeatedly. I’m a realist, not a theorist. The only eyes covered here belong to you and George.

          • georgehants

            Warthog, are you suggesting the only people on this site who care about people are me and invient? ha.
            There has never been a completely democratic socialist system ever dedicated to a completely equal caring and sharing World with a basic income for those at the bottom and better rewards for those doing more for society.
            Please stop using fictitious comments to try and justify your very fair view that nothing should be done to better this World and the more greedy one is the better.
            Multinationals in scramble for Congo’s wealth
            Scathing UN report points finger at British companies for helping to plunder resources of war-torn African country

          • Warthog

            “There has never been a completely democratic socialist system ever
            dedicated to a completely equal caring and sharing World with a basic
            income for those at the bottom and better rewards for those doing more
            for society.”

            And there never will be. For exactly the same reason that there has never been and will never be a pure capitalist system.

            “Please stop using fictitious comments to try and justify
            your very fair view that nothing should be done to better this World
            and the more greedy one is the better.”

            Nothing fictitious about my comments, as they are drawn from real history. And your comment that “my view” is as you claim is false. I remind you once again that I am a working member of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, whose charter is exactly one hundred and eighty degrees from your claim. I am interested in “things that work in the real world”, not some pie in the sky theoretical fantasy.

          • invient

            So the depressions in the late 19th century, the great depression at the beginning of the 20th century, the 70s stagflation, and the great recession that itself would have been a depression had the Fed not backed asset values and the government not bailed out the banks…

            I don’t think you can claim this is a “impure” version that seems to work, it breaks down every 7 years and about every 40 or so has a major crisis going hat in hand to the state for assistance… we can do better than this.

            As a realist, you should be able to unbiasedly look at the history of the system you support, and realize there is something wrong… something that needs to be fixed, and if the supporters of the system don’t want to, then it is up to the willing to do so.

            Cockshotts proposal differs substantially from the historical attempts at socialism… Using labor-tokens is unique, using athenian democracy (i.e. sortition) is unique, and the responsiveness of his system using consumer market signals is also unique.

          • invient

            I don’t think the material conditions surround them has any basis on their arguments.

            Anytime when the wage bill is high, there will be faster adoption of technology to aide in production. The point was made by Blythe, who isn’t a socialist, and claims that the current conditions wont change anytime soon given the historical record as given by the BoJ graph he presented.

          • Warthog

            LOL. “The material conditions surround them has any basis on their arguments.”

            Of course it does. It shows them to be totally lacking in what is termed “common sense” in the US. As was Marx, Engels, and pretty much every other communist/socialist ever hatched.

            “there will be faster adoption of technology to aide in production”

            Ludicrous. “Adoption of technology” is not limited to “production”. It is exactly the “adoption of technology” that is NOT tied to production that is raising the living standard even in the poorest regions of the globe. Use of cell phones is only one example. It may be that a village can only afford one phone, but look at the difference that single item of commerce makes.

        • Omega Z

          “labor tokens” another term for that evil term money. A rose by any other name—

          • invient

            It doesnt act as a store of value, so it isn’t money. If you were a botanist, most of your time would be in the unemployment line.

      • Omega Z

        In Venezuela of course.
        Of course George will just say they didn’t do it right. But Venezuela followed George’s advice on food. Food is a necessity thus grocers and farmers should not make a profit. Half the farmers now grow only partial crops and half grow none. The grocer store shelves mostly empty, operated under state supervision and people starving. A great start for a country that “USED To Be” mostly food self sufficient even exporting some.

        • georgehants

          Omega Z, silly example to excuse your non belief in fairness and equality it seems.
          You may find the following essay helpful in understanding Facts.
          What’s Behind The Economic Chaos In Venezuela
          An expert on Venezuela weighs in on the current crisis

          • Omega Z

            Yes Oil prices are down. Oil production is also down about 40% because no re-investment was made when equipment breaks down. Had it been left in the private sector, that would never have happened.

            Farmers went broke because no profit was allowed by the state. You can always find people who will supply excuses why socialism failed. But the real problem is they ran out of other peoples money.

            By the way, Venezuela is a wealthy country with assets exceeding 30 Trillion in assets. Money vs Assets. They are not the same thing. Assets are merely potential.

      • georgehants

        So sorry you cannot see it, but it takes all types.

    • Omega Z

      George, It took Apple nearly 8 years to build for market the I-Phone from existing technology. Car manufactures can easily spend 4/6 years designing a new car model year from existing technology.

      Rossi on the other hand has to create/invent all of his device mostly from scratch for a technology that so called experts claim does not to exist.

      You rant that Rossi should expose all his technology so that Billiions may be spent on 1000’s of scientists to develop this technology. I would point out that Rossi has already devulged 99% of his technology including available patent info and years of dribbling out details. All for the taking should others do the research.

      The Info is available. Alexander Parkhomov and the Chinese researchers have obtained excess heat(and other claims as well) by studying Rossi’s work and available details so “WHERE” are the Billion$ and the 1000’s of scientists.

      You could claim Rossi could give the last 1%. I’m sure he will when he has it worked out himself. Of course, he wont need the help of others when he accomplishes that. He will be building product. If those 1000’s of scientists were to use the already available 99% of information, they too could be working to develop that 1% as well. WHERE are they. Oh, They’ll get involved “AFTER” Rossi has done all the real work…

      Instead of ragging on Rossi all the time, you should ask where are the 1000’s of scientists.

      • cashmemorz

        My contacts on Diqus, in other forums, claim there is not enough to “establish” other theories outside quantum mechanics especially Mills Grand Unified Theory- Classical Physics. Even those who are on the fringes of theories, are non commital as to even looking at Mills GUT-CP. So, the “establishment “scientists won’t touch something that is not “established”. And they sound very vehement when pushed to try, no, they won’t, to avoid upsetting the rest around them, their peers. When Randell Mills developed his hydrino theory, his professor, Haus, who had done, exactly that same work for making the free electron laser a success, was asked by Mills to check Mills’ calculations. Mills’ calculations, (in Mills’ below ground orbit state electrons, leading to Mills’ GUT-CP), according to Haus, all checked out correctly. But there was one condition Mills had to fulfill regarding the checking. No one was to know that Haus was involved so as not to upset Haus’ reputation with Haus’ peers. Haus has passed on recently, so it will be curious to read what he left regarding that poiint.

        That is why all those thousands of scientists are not doing work on what, in a better world, would have been done.

      • georgehants

        Nobody can replicate a working Cold Fusion device from the information given by Rossi. in which case your whole argument is void.
        If that information had been released seven years ago for fair reward, then the thousands of scientists World wide could possibly have advanced the subject to be saving lives and reducing suffering.
        I state Facts and find it incredible that some take the time to argue completely illogically and un-scientifically against such basic self-evident Facts.

        • Didn’t Parkhamov proceed from Rossi’s published details?

          • georgehants

            Kevmo, where is the open publication from Parkhamov that can be followed to prove a viable Cold Fusion, MFMP have been working with him, I think, and have so far been unable to replicate.

          • Go find it yourself. I posted 153 replications to you that you’re just gonna handwave over so there’s no reason to listen to you.

    • Engineer48

      Hi George,

      So you do not keep up with LENR research?

      For your information the 1st LENR reactor happened in 1989 and has been replicated in labs all around the globe.

      • I posted a thread on LENR-Forum asking how many times the Pons-Fleischmann Anonymous Heat Effect was replicated in peer reviewed publications. Jed posted his excellent link to 153 papers but Shanahan sidelined the discussion with his bullshit. Moderators have the duty to prevent sidelining but they are slow to do such things while fast to crack down on anything even remotely (25:1 odds) pro-Rossi. They should just call themselves the anti-LENR forum and be done with it.

        • Chapman


          quick question. is jeb attempting to return to sanity like Abd?

          I swore off insulting Abd in observance of his attempt (and in deference to the kind heartedness of some of our members who wished to see him get a fair shake), and i dare say i am equally willing to do the same for jed IF one of “ours” was to vouch for him to me, and testify that he is making an attempt at reform…

          • I’m a fan of Jed even if he’s gone off the rails a little bit. He’s convinced Rossi is a fraud, by looking at the evidence. You can’t ask more than that, can you?

          • Chapman

            Do you believe it is his own HONEST opinion, rather than just another one of the Darden sellouts spouting crap they know is BS just for a sense of being accepted by “the in crowd”?

            I can respect an opinion, even though I strongly disagree, if it’s an honest expression of one’s outlook, priorities, and worldview. It is only the disingenuous, and “FUDsters” in general, that I hold in contempt.

          • I have no reason to think Jed’s assessment of Rossi is dishonest. I think his opinion is more considered than Krivit’s was when he turned on Rossi.

          • Chapman

            And with that response I can see that you understood exactly the distinction I was trying to make.

            So I will lay off Jed unless he comes around in some unprovoked attack…

            And THANK YOU for your honest feedback on the matter.

          • Neither Krivit has any engineering or science training, as far as I know.

          • Omega Z

            Krivits skills is with the pen. He is good at changing the narrative.

            Example being his claim that Petroldragon did not work. This claim puts one immediately on the defensive. Truth is, The technology Rossi was deploying originated in the 1920’s and various forms are used even today by major industries extracting waste oil from refuse, extracting oil from coal or Oil from tar sands etc… They all depend on the same basic technology. It’s not a question of does it works.

            There was only one legitimate question to be asked and Krivits didn’t even bother. Was It Economical. Given Rossi was paid to accept the waste, a reasonably efficient extraction of waste oil recovery and the price of oil in the time frame of the Petroldragon, I would be of the opinion that it was economical.

            Note: 95% of human refuse is recyclable. How much gets recycled is dependent on being economical or legal requirements to recycle it.

            Did Rossi have illegal waste on his property. Yes, but it became illegal after the fact when the law was changed. It was legal prior to that and likely the primary reason Rossi never received jail time for that charge. I have a gravel driveway which is against city ordinance, But it was there long before the ordinance was created. I’m only required to have a paved driveway should I make changes to it.

            The thermoelectric generators. Here Krivits provided a lot of half truths. Rossi started the consulting firm Leonardo Technologies(LTI). The real narrative- Rossi and 3 others started LTI.

            Krivits implies that Rossi approached the DOD. It doesn’t work that way. The DOD puts out a request for proposals on a project and they approach you from a number of submitted proposals from multiple consultants. If not Rossi, it would have been someone else. The DOD has repeated this project at least once since then.

            Rossi sent 27 thermoelectric devices for evaluation. No, Rossi only Built 1 prototype and according to the DOD pdf, tho not quite as efficient as they hoped, was close enough to move forward. This was after all, exploratory R&D(It continues today). 27 thermoelectric devices were built by 2 different manufactures 1 from Italy and 1 from the U.S.. Those were the devices that didn’t work or measure up. This was not Rossi’s doings nor was Rossi the only person involved in this. It included multiple parties including a University.

            I saw 1 redflag when viewing the images of Rossi’s thermoelectric generator. He was using refrigeration in his tests. This will change the efficiency numbers. But this is answered in the military pdf. They were intended for cold climate use in the north some above the arctic circle. It was built for the environment they were intended intended to be used in and will effect the efficiency in determining the economic benefits. Fuel is expensive to haul to far off out of the way places, especially where the temperatures are extremely cold and requires a lot of fuel. You want to make use all the energy you can capture that’s economical.

            As you can see, it’s easy to defame and discredit someone when you change the narrative. It’s plainly visible with the E-cat narrative. Keep them on the defensive.

            Note: The Wiki article is also very misleading(or shows a great lack of intelligence) stating that Such devices are “normally” only used for heating or cooling (Peltier effect).

            Most everything that uses gas, water heater, cook stove, heating systems use this effect for electrical current feed back. Even the high efficiency pilot-less systems use a thermal couple(even glow bar igniters act as a thermal couple) This is “normally” what they are used for. Electrical current feed back. They open and close the gas valves.

            Rossi’s detractors would have us believe Rossi is so incompetent that he can’t even build a thermal couple, yet he’s intelligent enough to fool over a dozen experts in their field(including nuclear physicists) that he produces excess heat. ROFLMAO…

          • Engineer48

            Hi Kevmo,

            Jed’s analysis of the ERV data and his conclusions are faulty. Big time. Thus his use of this analysis to defame Rossi could be costly for him if Rossi ever decided to sue Jed for defamation.

          • I don’t think Jed would have much to worry about in a defamation lawsuit, because there is a lot of material that makes Rossi look defamed. But he likes to say that anyone who’s read the Penon report will know immediately that Rossi is a fraud. Dozens of people have read the Penon report and do not come to this conclusion, so my advice to Jed is to write an article going through the Penon report and saying explicitly point by point how this is fraudulent. Starting with the fact that Penon wrote it, not Rossi.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Kevmo,

            Jed can’t do that as none of his claims stack up.

            Should point out that Jed is not an engineer and has made several significant errors in judgement because he lacks engineering knowledge.

            Jed has NO PROOF, you know the stuff that will stand up in court, yet clearly defames Rossi as a crook, scammer, fraud, etc.

            If I was Jed I would stop making such statements as he may push Rossi too far.

          • This is one overlooked aspect of the settlement. Rossi submitted a lot of information to the court docket. The standard for a civil case is “preponderance of the evidence” and there wasn’t even enough of that to make IH move forward on their civil fraud claims.

            All of that information is available to law enforcement. But the standard for criminal cases is “beyond a reasonable doubt”. So if a civil case can’t prove fraud then there is essentially proof that criminal fraud does not exist.

          • Jed doesn’t need PROOF. He has evidence. In order for Rossi to prevail in a defamation lawsuit he would have to prove that the stuff said about him was untrue. Advantage: Jed.

            But by the same token Rossi doesn’t need to file a defamation suit, he can just threaten to do so. That is how he cleaned up all the bullshit that was showing up on his Wikipedia page, just threatening to sue them. Yet, even after the cleanup you can see that there is plenty of evidence for someone who wants to defame Rossi and get away with it.

          • That would be fun.

        • Chapman


          I never argue or question the moderation here, but did you delete your response below, or was it removed?

          I found nothing objectionable about your comments, and was surprised that it suddenly disappeared.

          Just wondering what happened, not trying to make a point.

          and for the record, “rainbow unicorn skittle fart system” is STILL the funniest thing I have heard around here!!!

          [psssst… kevmo…. dude, warthogs got hold of invient down below, and it’s a slaughter. It’s like watching a rabid pitbull tearing up an itty bitty fluffy baby bunnie!!! DAYAMMM!]

          • Looks like my response was removed. Glad you like my “rainbow unicorn skittle fart system”. It is SO much better than the way America does things.

      • georgehants

        Engineer48, when an open, repeatable by MFMP etc. report is published then a claim of excess Energy can be confirmed.
        Until then, or an openly repeatable product is available to independently test showing a COP above one, then there is no practical proof of useful Cold Fusion.
        Such a situation has not been and is not available.
        If you disagree please put up a link to the report that MFMP can follow immediately to produce over unity with Cold Fusion.

        • Engineer48

          Hi George,

          You are entitled to your opinion as I am.

          I should point out that I have done extensive research and have had lengthy discussions with Rossi to back up by understanding.

          LENR is as real now as it was in 1989. If you actually do the hard yards and do the research, you will also arrive at somewhat the same understand I have. As you seem to have a very different opinion than I do, all I can say is George you need to educate yourself. The data is out there.

          • georgehants

            Engineer48, you have in no way answered my point, I await your link that MFMP can use to immediately replicate over-unity Cold Fusion or where to acquire a working device to test.
            If you cannot do this then please do not insult me but agree you are in error.
            It is not my “opinion” but Facts I am stating.

          • Engineer48

            Hi George,

            Please invest lots of your time, brain power, do your own research and come to your own conclusion, as I have done. It is the only way you will gain understanding.

            BTW don’t ever again tell me what to do.

          • georgehants

            Engineer48, please don’t ever tell me to “educate myself” when you can show not one iota of Evidence to dispute my Facts.
            The same situation apply’s of course to Rossi, there is not one single piece of open, published Evidence for seven years from reports, patents etc that can can be confirmed and repeated by those skilled in the art.
            Not one single open, repeatable piece of Evidence that the man has ever produced a Cold Fusion COP above 1.

          • Engineer48

            Hi George,

            All I can say is you very clearly have not done your homework or have some vested interest as to why you make clearly false statements.

            Anyway our discussion is over.

          • georgehants

            Engineer48, if my “statements” are “false” you as a man very knowledgeable about Cold Fusion should be able to very quickly put up links as I have asked, that are open and available for those skilled in the art such as MFMP to replicate.
            It seems you cannot do that so give up and start claiming “false statements” etc.
            Well done

          • Engineer48
          • georgehants

            So if this link gives full open, complete, repeatable instructions to produce a Cold Fusion above unity device, Bob from MFMP and his colleagues seem to be blind and have completely missed it.
            When Bob reports that the link you have put up satisfies all the criteria that I have mentioned and those guys are going to immediately follow the comprehensive instructions given I will immediately apologize to you.
            Thanks for chat, wait expectantly for MFMP’s response.

          • Engineer48

            SPAWAR scientists claim almost 100% success rate with Co-Deposition technology. Maybe watch ALL their report videos several times as I have done?

            Why MFMP have not replicated Co-Deposition is unknown to me? SPAWAR data does detail the process their scientists used. As it seems very important to you, why not ask MFMP yourself?

            You have data, do you research and don’t ask others to do your leg & brain work.

          • georgehants

            Engineer48 if your SPAWAR report is open and repeatable, then MFMP or anybody skilled in the art can repeat from their publications Cold Fusion showing a COP above one.
            You seem to be accusing every scientist in the World of being totally incompetent.
            You have clearly marked your reply as in no way conforming to my Facts by quoting “SPAWAR scientists claim almost 100% success rate with Co-Deposition technology”
            Any “claims” do not fall within the parameters I have repeatedly given to you.
            Claimed means nothing, information to allow open, repeatable over unity Cold Fusion replication, I have Factually stated are unavailable.

          • MFMP doesn’t have much money nor equipment. They would also need someone who’s familiar with Co-Deposition to run the experiment. So they’re stuck chasing low hanging fruit but they even balk at some of that, such as their inexplicable silence on dropping the Gamma Ray investigation.

          • georgehants

            Kevmo, would that apply to every institution, scientist, corporation in the World.
            There has been no exceptable, open, repeatable conformation of a Cold Fusion device with a COP above one, ever published

          • Take that up with the 153 peer reviewed replications of POns-Fleischmann that Jed/Britz publishes. And among those first 100 or so replications was a veritable list of “who’s who in electrochemistry”. So that is 153 ways of saying “bullshit”.

          • georgehants

            Kevmo, so MFMP only have to follow the fully openly published methodology of these claimed repetitions and they contain every detail necessary for them to replicate the effect.
            As I wrote below I look forward to Bob of MFMP confirming that situation and explaining why they have not already done so.

          • They have addressed the situation more than once: They have a lack of resources.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I think the SPWAR work shows incontrovertible proof that LENR is real. I heard that a group of students were able to replicate the co-deposition results. Should be relatively simple.

            My biggest question is, given co-deposition, why is there not more research money going into explaining the phenomena?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Thomas,

            Maybe because it threatens Hot Fission research funds?

            Dr. Eugene Mallove explains the MIT “Monkey Data Alteration” of the P&F replication data as being Fraud:


          • Thomas Kaminski

            “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
            ― Upton Sinclair

          • Engineer48

            Hi Thomas,


          • MFMP saw gamma rays in an experiment and then just dropped it without comment.


  • Steve Swatman

    Ok so thats that, over and done with,forward and onward, So where do we stand.

    Dont give a damn about what the deal was with IH, thats their business.

    Dr Rossi can now devote all of his time to the E-cat and Quark-x

    Waiting for the results of the E-cats in customers hands, and waiting to see then been rolled out for commercial customers.

    Waiting for the quark-x demo and fabrication news.

    I am happy that the court has been dealt with.

    I will be happy when here is news from e-cat customers and even happier when we are all talking about the Quark-x demo.

    So time to get on with life until information starts feeding down the chain.

    • So Rossi was not frog marched off on fraud charges by the court then ? Or that seemed to be the underhand suggestion “hanging in the air” when this all started from the constant “we told you so” people.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Michael,

        This is not LF.

        Your comment is out of order as it is speculation of the worst kind.
        If you have comments to make based on actual data then please do so.

        BTW it was a civil trial and not a criminal trial, so please learn what is what.

      • Michael W Wolf

        yea, what happened. you skeptics practically assured people Rossi was done and would be outed for the fraud he was.

  • Karl Venter

    What can Rossi think up after Sigma 5 ?
    To delay a presentation this year
    And what will be his new development be that he will work on next year?

    • Best not to think of it in isolation.

      If the technology (broadly speaking) is real, there is a tsunami of commercialization building just off shore. If Rossi delays too long he will be beaten to market by the likes of BLP, Brillouin or a dark horse like me356, Ecco or IH themselves via Lenuco, for example.

      If the technology is not real and there’s a toxic mixture of fraud and delusion that’s escaped into the world in rarely seen quantities then all of these balls will fall to the ground in the near future. BLP will say, whoops still need to do more engineering despite announced commercialization schedule. Brillouin will do nothing with their new round of funding. me356 will fail or cancel his second validation attempt and Ecco their first.

      Just have to wait and see which reality we live in.

      • cashmemorz

        Reality: BLP MUST have been vetted by universities before allowing him to lecture on his theory, his impossible (according to QM) 6 devices ALL work, therefore his theory is super validated. Based just on that Quantum Mechanics is a non strarter, and if it is, it just barely makes it via its curve fitting and other long term vaidation by more and more detailed versions of itself to “prove” what the earlier versions have a hypothesis, not theory, on any phenomena. From there it is obvious that anyone trying a theory regarding LENR using any version of Quantum Mechanics is doomed to getting ever closer to their working version but not quite making it as is being done with hot fusion. Brillouin is also taking ever longer to get their version to work over COP 5. BLP hydrino COP already over 1000:1 that started from robust theory alone and not the other way around as all others are trying to do.

    • He can spend a whole year on the thickness of the lead shielding because he started detecting radiation spikes. There’s a thousand other things he could use.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Karl,

      I’m looking forward to my team and myself visiting Rossi in Florida and being trained to install and support QuarkX based reactors of various capacities.

      What will you be doing?

      • Grégory

        I know I will be following what you do.

      • Karl Venter

        That I cant tell you its covered under NDA

        Sound familiar?

        Thats what you will tell us once you go to Florida/Sweden do your training

        Cant sell me one because its not Sigma 5
        Cant sell me one — it exhibits radiation or some other plausible excuse
        and so on and so on

        Prove me wrong?

        • Engineer48

          Hi Karl,

          Have you ever seriously tried to engage with Rossi and go through the process to buy a reactor?

          Well I did and Rossi was totally professional.

          Sure my client needed to sign a conditional purchase order and place some small funds in escrow but there was no hestitation from Rossi in allowing my clients engineers and myself to test a working 1MW reactor and to make the purchase totally conditional on a acceptable to my client test report.

          There was no scam. No delaying.

          This is how both sides engage in their due diligence when radically new technology is involved.

          The above has been shared here several times, so it is not new.

          • Karl Venter

            Hi Engineer

            Thats great news

            When are you testing the 1MW reactor – I would assume you would like to test it without delaying –

          • Engineer48

            Hi Karl,

            As I stated earlier, Rossi informed me that all Lenoardo reactor system products will be based on the QuartkX reactor module.

            I see no intentional delay in that statement, just R&D reality and as I have developed many commercial products, I know 1st hand what R&D involves.

            Should also point out that the Doral reactor tech had been through and passed the required safety certifications, which the QuarkX reactor has not yet been through nor passed.

            Again product reality that Rossi has no control over..

  • Chapman

    We have all been there… Standing in line at the bank, waiting our turn while some twenty-something twit is loosing her mind screaming at the teller “you can’t do that!”. All because she deposited a personal, out of state check from her grandma to her checking account on Thursday, then went crazy with her ATM card over the weekend buying Monster sodas at 7-11 (14 transactions at 3.95 each) and when the check cleared on tuesday she finds that all her funds were taken to cover the $35 overdraw fee for each of those purchases!

    $490 GONE, because she did not understand how things work in the real world.

    Sometimes, the term “Moronic” is not an insult, but a simple assessment of mental capacity and intellectual faculty. No slight is intended. It is simply stating the obvious.

    Following that same logic thread, I refer the reader to certain parties around here that insist that a contract can only be canceled by mutual agreement of all parties involved.

    What??? Are you KIDDING me??? What planet do you live on???

    This is not even an issue where you need to call your cousin who “knows legal stuff”… You break a contract, and the other party cancels that contract.

    Try to tell the guy repossessing your F-150 that “he can’t do that”.
    Try to tell the cable guy, who is up on the pole cutting the cable to your double-wide “he can’t do that”.
    Try to tell THE BANK teller “he can’t do that”!

    To be clear: Rossi canceled the contract with IH for failure to pay. It IS a unilateral decision, and is only subject to legal dispute after the fact if the canceled party chooses to sue the cancelling agency for damages resulting from an unwarranted cancellation. In accordance with LAW, IH was duly notified of the cancellation, and acknowledges that they have received such notice. They have no IP or License rights at this time, and WILL have no rights unless by future agreement with Rossi. Any attempted use by IH of Rossi IP at this time would not only be an infringement of Rossi’s legal rights, but a criminal act of theft due to the willful intent to trespass against his legal rights following such a notification.

    Anyone insisting that “he can’t do that” is just another snowflake twit making noise, and going off on matters that they clearly do not have the capacity to properly evaluate…

    • Observer

      In the information age there is no excuse for needing 3 business days to clear a check form anywhere in the country. If the bank had its way it would fill its contracts with fee traps like this.

      Fortunately we can choose who we do business with. Unfortunately, we do not get to negotiate such contracts.

      • theBuckWheat

        Speaking of information, the bank that accepted the check for deposit has no information flow from the Federal Reserve clearing facility that informs it the status of each deposited check. The system was designed so that a check is presumed to be accepted unless it is rejected. The time delay of three days is more than enough for the recipient bank to complain and reject it. If the check is good, no response is needed.

        Banks of often grant their customers a form of credit by accepting the risk on deposits and making the funds available immediately. But that is a concession for customer relations. In reality the bank is on the hook for any bounced checks and then must try to pass the loss on to the customer. Twenty-something twits don’t qualify for that account feature.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Many banks now charge a fee to cash a check drawn by one of their own depositors (unless the payee also has an account at that bank). When a checking account holder writes a check, he writes “Pay the order of _____”.
          When a bank refuses to cash that check (without receiving a fee), it is disobeying the order of its customer. I was a rental landlord, I refused to accept checks from tenants whose banks charged such a fee.

  • Do we know that Rossi received any money at all?

    • We can’t know for sure but we can make educated guesses.

      • Grégory

        Here is one educated guess.
        Patent has no value because it’s fake. Leonardo has no money. IH has nothing to get from there but can get bad press (something to loose). Rossi need to keep some plausibility to keep up a scam. Both have a shared interest in agreeing to leave things at that : Rossi keeps a pretense of technology, IH keeps a pretense of being able to make educated technological investment and not be fooled by scams. And so they settle.

        It’s just a possibility. Alternatively, Rossi has more than IH admits, but not to the point he has an easy case, and they find it both for the best to get a few millions and leave any patent claim to Rossi (I assume that’s the bit where he wouldn’t let IH get anything).

        My thinking is that the basic of a deal is that IH can’t claim to have IP without having provided the money agreed in exchange. That’s a premise that probably trumps every details in the thousands of pages of both parties, including whether there’s a tech or not. Obviously they can claim they want their initial money back if they feel they’ve been played except that if Rossi has put it out of reach (spend it, offered it to his wife…) it’s probably impossible to recover. So they’re probably not in a good spot to claim anything. OTOH Rossi can either focus on getting the promised money from IH (but maybe he found out they don’t have it either, pretty plausible reason for their behavior as well) or consider he’ll make a ton more if he focus on what he does best (or think he does).

        It’s up to everyone to make a more random than educated guess. We’re not likely to know anytime soon.

        • Omega Z

          My guess. Rossi has the goods but always had control issues. Especially outside his personal control in the market. Hecan’t be everywhere at once.

          I believe the Quark is the answer he has been seeking. Due to it’s design and hightemp materials, the Quark can be left to run full out. As long as the longevity of the materials meets or exceeds the fuel life, control is no longer an issue. It is either on full out or off.

        • sam

          Or I.H. found out the QuarkX works and settled.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Sam,

            When the IH lawyer stated the pump capacity was 5, 000 g/d as per the Smith report, they lost the case as Prominent state the feed rate, when operated at atmospheric back pressure, as was the case, would be several times the feed rate at 2 barg, the rated back pressure.

            For sure Rossi knew that as he designed them into the 1MW ECat because they would deliver the necessary flow rate at the operational back pressure of the Tiger reactors.

          • Obvious

            At fractions of the full capacity, the Pro Minent pumps will deliver a higher rate than the setting if back pressure is not sufficient. At very low flow rate settings, this could result in a multiple of the intended setting.
            At the maximum pump flow rate settings, the flow rate will only marginally increase when backpressure is low. This is because there is a physical volume and control limit to the pump displacement, and the number of stokes allowed per minute.

          • Engineer48

            The pump is rated at 2 bar back pressure at 5, 000 g/d which implies it has pumped water up 66 feet.

            Pumping 5, 000 g of water up 66 feet per day is also an indication of the pumps ability to do work.

            It rates the pumps max output of energy.

            So if the pump has the energy output to lift 5, 000 g/d of water up 66 feet, what do you expect the same output energy capacity would be when the pumped water height was a few inches?

            Clearly the pump can deliver more flow as the work need to be done at 0 barg or atmosphetic back pressure is 66 times per g/d less than that at max energy output with a 2 barg back pressure.

            As ProMinent state, at atmospheric back pressure, the feed rate is several times the rated feed rate. Please note “several times the rated feed rate”, ie 10, 000 g/day or greater.

            So Smith got it wrong.

          • Bruce__H


            I followed your post where you found a line in a Prominent manual regarding the pumping capacity at atmospheric pressure being several times the rated capacity at 2 barg back pressure. This has been causing me to alter my opinion about the max capacity of the ganged pumps on the Big Frankies.

            However I have been looking into things more and mow I see things that I cannot reconcile with the information you have dug up. I have questions.

            First. How is “back pressure” measured? Is it the absolute pressure experienced just at the of the pump or is it the difference in pressure between the outlet and the inlet? If it is the former definition then “atmospheric” back pressure means that the pump outlet is basically open. If it is a pressure differential then “atmospheric” means in most situations the outlet is at 2 bar. But then isn’t “atmospheric” an odd way to state this?

          • Obvious
    • Michael W Wolf

      Name one case in which the person suing didn’t get paid by the defendants when it is settled out of court. Case closed.

      • I’m sure there are plenty of cases. My sister sued a woman for medical damages when she fell through a glass living room table. She dropped the suit but the woman had countersued her and didn’t drop the case. My sister got nothing, the other woman got a real scolding from the judge.

        There was a case of a woman who left what she thought was a couple million dollars to the University of California. Her estate was sued by some shark lawyers because they said that if she had known her estate was worth 20X more, she would have donated to their client. The case went on for a couple years, was finally dropped and the only people who got paid were the Lawyers, on BOTH sides.

        Notice how the lawyers on both sides of this case got paid as well.

        • Michael W Wolf

          apples and oranges Kev. Find a case with an NDA settlement that went in favor of the defendant. I know NDA means we should not know, but as you well know, with the famous cases we always know which way it went.

          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

            In this case, there were two original plaintiffs, five original defendants, three counterclaim plaintiffs, and seven counterclaim defendants, and there were counterclaim defendants with a lot to lose if it didn’t go well. For some of the counterclaims, the evidence was simple and strong (not all of them, and some here confuse claims with defenses and affirmative defenses, not realizing there are there are different standards for decision between them.)

            In a case like this, Assuming that a plaintiff will not settle unless they gain much or most of what they were demanding is just plain foolish.

            I have been sued, and when I presented a strong defense, with some teeth, the plaintiffs settled for what I would have agreed to if they had not sued. The difference was that it was much more expensive for them than being willing to agree and treating us with respect. They believed that they could win, they believed that it would be easy.

          • I’m not going to find such a case because I have no need to play fetch. It is your assertion, so it’s your burden to produce evidence for it.

      • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

        Many settlements include non-disclosure agreements. So you wouldn’t know!

  • Wow. That was a long haul. How many Ecat followers do we still have here ? Hello ? Oh I see there’s a few die hards left. Yes. War over indeed.

    • Freethinker

      A few of us are standing in the shadows.

      • Timar

        We do.

      • R101

        +1 🙂

    • Engineer48

      Hi Michael,

      For your information I have re-engaged with Andrea and my team are looking forward to having a lot of happy clients after installing Leonardo manufactured QuarkX based reactors.

      What will you be doing?

      • Hi. Reactivating the section of my site devoted to the Ecat story. I have an interest in the history of science/technology & LENR is another exciting wild fronteir. The world needs positive futures at the moment and the overcoming of the cynics and the conspiracy crowd who often assume these kinda things will be jack booted. No! As this news shows assumptions can be very wrong indeed.

      • Hi. Reactivating the section of my site devoted to the Ecat story. I have an interest in the history of science/technology & LENR is another exciting wild fronteir. The world needs positive futures at the moment and the overcoming of the cynics and the conspiracy crowd who assume that this will be jack booted. Of course in light of the news it has not been. Assuming such things is bad form.

    • Nick Sunchild

      More then a view, you can be sure, that a lot of the readers, are getting, searching, sorting and value Facts. In that moment they have enough of them they talk.

      talk less, listen more, be productive

    • Michael W Wolf

      Wow. that is it? This is all you skeptics have left? No celebrating your so called hands down victory? No comments about how IH had their arses handed to them? This is what you are reduced to? Your comment says it all. The war is over, skeptics are silenced.

  • theBuckWheat

    Now maybe the creative energies that were diverted to litigation can be returnee back to LENR. Every day the world burns about 94 million barrels of oil, and a good fraction of that can be displaced by LENR. At USD 45/bbl that is over USD 4 Billion per day or about 1.5 trillion USD/year. Apart from the immense money flow that is just going up in smoke, there is the environmental cost as well.

  • Chapman


    I realize that Rossi is bound to the NDA restrictions regarding the details of the settlement, but do you think we might inquire whether he is currently considering applicants for the US License for the ORIGINAL E-Cat unit. I am not talking about the Quark, because I realize that there is much R&D yet to be done on that design, but I am interested to know if the vanilla E-Cat license is up for grabs.

    This should not be prohibited by the NDA, because the release of the previous license is not an issue pertinent to the settlement.

    I know of a manufacturer (a common name you would recognize), with factory space, a labor force, and established marketing and distribution channels that is facing the obsolescence of their existing product, and are eager to find a viable product to which they can direct their resources and continue business, rather than liquidate and fade away.

    • Frank Acland

      I would be surprised if Rossi was interested in licensing the early E-Cat technology. I think Rossi considers it obsolete, and it’s the QuarkX all the way from here. The only way to find out for sure, though, is to ask Andrea Rossi. He can be contacted at

      • Chapman

        Thanks. These are good people, with a good reputation. They are “all dressed up, with no place to go” and do not want to mothball a family operation that has been going 50 years and employs a lot of the local population. All they need is a PRODUCT! I thought it was a good match, because they do mostly assembly of pre-manufactured “kits”.

        I will drop him a note, and forward contact info if he is interested…

      • Engineer48

        Hi Frank,

        Did that.

        Only reactor tech that Leonardo will be shipping will be QuarkX based.

        Thus the Doral reactor is last generation. Besides the Doral reactor is owned by IH, as they manufactured it.

        • clovis ray

          I wonder if they would sell it.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Clovis,

            As IH have declared the Doral reactor did not work, it should only be worth scrap value to them.

            I would gladly buy a few of the smaller 10kW Blue Cat reactors with their associated control boxes.

            Expect it would take me only a few months to have them purring like kittens.

          • Even if IH thinks the plant works, I’m afraid they’re not capable of making it operate. From what I saw, they never sincerely put qualified people into this venture and never seemed interested for real in developing the E-Cat technology.

          • Yes, my Fred Flinstone hypothesis. Maybe they figured they could transfer the IP to Brullioun whom they found easier to work with.

          • sam

            That was one reason Rossi took them to Court was that he
            thought they were sharing his I.P with Brullion.
            Godes says not and i beleive him.

          • Godes saying he filed his IP before Rossi showed up has no bearing onto whether IH shared Rossi IP with them 10 years later.

          • Omega Z

            When Godes filed his IP has nothing to do with this.

            Godes was working with a wet cell.
            Note: that wet cells are consider inferior for very high temp operation.
            Suddenly comes up with a dry system very similar to Rossi’s technology.

          • Bruce__H

            This seems an extraordinary thing to say. Didn’t they hire Rossi and his team to transfer the E-Cat technology? Aren’t they qualified?

          • Omega Z

            Mats, you’re not supposed to check the credentials of the people they brought into this. You’re supposed to except their selections on their word.

            Cherokees historic MO. Many of the brownfield experts they used had ZERO experience. The only connection some seem to have was cronyism.

          • sam

            It was that they could not figure out how to work with A.R.
            Maybe they should have hired you Mats.
            They where definitely interested in his technology.

          • Omega Z

            Plenty of ways to share info without saying much.

            Guy goes to his supervisor says, I heard rumor there’s going to be a layoff. Any truth to that? Supervisor- NO!

            OK, I was just wondering because I was thinking about buying a new car this week.

            Supervisor- Umm. You may want to wait a couple weeks.

            The Plenty of ways to share info without saying much.
            Note this Supervisor NEVER said anything about a layoff.

        • Michael W Wolf

          What happened to the 3 reactors that was ordered by the European customer? I asked if the quarkx would obsolete the ecat and was told absolutely not. Why hasn’t Rossi spoke of this?

    • LION

      Hi Chapman, could you say where in the UK that is i.e. which city or county,

      • Chapman

        Not UK. I am a “Bloody Yank”. US of A, baby!

        Pacific Northwest.

  • cashmemorz

    Also Schrodinger stated that his wave theory of particles or wave mechanics was just an attempt to get the various parts of that times physics to be a coherent whole. Wave mechanics also was not especially workable. That is the part that bemused Schrodinger. Especially when others tok wave mechanics as applicable to the real world. The final joke was in the form of the cat in two states. That was to illustrate the silliness if applying wave mechanics and the uncertainty principle to large scale objects. Too many people missed that distinction.

  • invient

    >None of these required multiple millions of people being hauled off to slave labor camps or simply killed. Nor did they result in mass starvations.

    Whataboutism, the system is still broke…

    >So what if the Fed worked to stabilize things……apparently that is part of the necessary “impurity” to maintain a working system.

    It favors one party over another, even though both are culpable only the creditor gets bailed out. The debtor is allowed to be ravaged.

    >It certainly works better than ALL the experiments in socialism thus far tried.

    Thus far, as I’m sure the feudalist remarked to the merchant class before being relegated to history.

    >”Labor tokens” i.e. money. Athenian democracy failed. The Founding Fathers hated democracy, as, in their view, it ALWAYS led to tyranny. Who interprets the “consumer market signals”? Why, that would be the “nomenklatura”, of course.

    Labor tokens are not money, they do not act as a store of value and expire like a cheque. They are a means of exchange, and unit of account, so 2 out of 3 of the required behaviors to be classified as money, but still not money.

    Athenian democracy failed the same way the roman republic failed, by an external foreign force, yet we went with republic. Why did they hate democracy? As Aristotle pointed out elections with elected representatives leads to plutocracy, while elections by lot is rule by the poor, or democracy… why would a group of wealthy land owners, merchants, financiers, and lawyers view being ruled by the poor as tyranny, but yet the poor being ruled by the wealthy as not tyranny… They had a common, some would say class-like, interest in keeping the poor subdued.

    The consumer market signals is the ratio between price/labor-value. If the consumer is paying above 1, then it tells the “nomenklatura” to produce more, less then 1, to produce less. There isn’t much room for interpretation.

    • Warthog

      “Whataboutism, the system is still broke…”

      True. But why keep trying to replace it with a system that has been shown to fail.

      Despite your assertion, the “labor token” is no different from money.

      What you apparently fail to realize is that the collection of the amounts and types of data needed for Cockshott’s fantasy would require a government tyranny of
      massive proportions. Privacy would be non-existent, as would freedom. This is why ALL past experiments in socialism have failed, as they are contrary to basic human nature. When people choose NOT to follow the flawed vision of the theorists, one of three things happens….1) the system collapses, 2) those in charge decide to eliminate those who disagree (executions and gulags yet again) or 3) both 1) AND 2).

      Here’s a book review/rebuttal:

      • invient

        >Despite your assertion, the “labor token” is no different from money.

        According to the mises journal entry, no it isn’t. Also according to what is taught at university, it isn’t.

        As for the rest of the article

        >The authority, responding to “changing needs and priori- ties,” and in part governed by democratically elicited judgments about these will wind up by ruling that some labor (expended say on moon pies and the National Review) is not socially necessary after all even in the face of vigorous demand.

        There is no “democratically elicited judgments” in the consumer market. The citizen councils manage the affairs of public goods, of which could effect demand but always in an equal and opposite direction to the funding of public goods. I.e. there can never be a case where there is vigorous demand and spurious public good expense because to do so they would have had to accept the planners proposal which would include taxes curbing consumer demand.

        >Planners would thus be inclined to regard their position as a kind of property or capital: aggressively sought, fiercely defended—by the use of which one could expect a return in the form of what- ever currency eluded official suppression. If, as likely, this currency took the form of consumer goods, exploitation would see the planners using their position to assure that they received a disproportionate share at the expense of voters and consumers.

        I don’t think the author of this paper actually read what C&C wrote.

        Here is the quote considering how a plan is decided upon

        >For economic planning we envisage a system in which teams of professional economists draw up alternative plans to put before a planning jury which would then choose between them. (165-166)

        A jury is elected by lot, the randomness and changing constituents of this assembly will keep any one member from using their position as “property” and the competition between planners on the other end will keep them similarly bounded. The jury would have to approve the economic planners “disproportionate share” and as explained further down the C&C quote, be approved by the general vote.

        The following analysis and results that Brewster asserts are all based on this flimsily erected straw man of C&C’s arguments.

        In addition, Cockshott has response to Brewster making additional points…

        • Warthog

          The more you post, the wackier Cockshott’s scheme appears. Totally impractical.

          The so-called “jury” cannot possibly deliver feedback in sufficient time and/or detail to manage a complexly interacting economy. And yet Cockshott intends to have a hugely complicated computer system supposedly doing so in near real time. The two approaches are mutually incompatible.

          In reality, the people in control will be those who program the computer(s), or those who control those programmers.

  • Bob Greenyer

    John Hutchinson video, full transcript where he might have revealed the key the New Fire TRIGGERING FREQUENCIES

    In this blog post, I also discuss best elements for capture and storage of charge clusters (if they actually do exist) and why John Hutchinson’s samples would therefore fail the way they did.

    • georgehants

      Evening Bob, I am informed that there is completely open published information available for you or anybody skilled in the art to replicate, now, a Cold Fusion device showing a Cop above one.
      Could I ask why you are not following this method?

      • Bob Greenyer

        I think you are referring to the Co-deposition method. I would have liked to do that at Aarhus, they were even building some precision automated dipping equipment that would have been ideal for the purpose – however, some people that thought that conducting LENR research on the campus was likely to bring bad reputation upon them and so the Deans of the university quickly stopped all effort before it even really got started.

        George Egely did something similar with good results shortly after 1989, but his lab was shut down.

        The technique whilst claimed to be repeatable and for understandable reasons, is more of a proof than a practical thing – right now we have no resources to do this. Whilst someone may think you just follow a bunch of instructions and it just happens, this, as we have learnt, is simply not the case – any new direction will take years to hone – even with the assistance of the original claimant – in this case, the main claimant has passed on.

        • Omega Z

          You know there are some things that can’t really be taught. They are a matter of shear intuition.

          It’s like someone who has a recipe where the quantity of ingredients will vary with every batch produces a taste do die for. Yet you can replicate it in a lab with fine detail and produce something that even the dog wont eat.

          It may be something the chef does intuitively that it never occurred to him makes the difference in your results. Thus the suggestion in an exchange with you from someone here at ECW that you should video everything when you went to check out Parkhomov’s dogbone. Not that he would intentionally leave something out, but something so natural to him he never considered necessary to include in the details. Something he does intuitively.

          • Bob Greenyer

            You are absolutely right, we had this occur many times with Celani – we would eventually find something out and ask him and he would say – “h yeh should have said that”

          • Omega Z

            Just a Note:
            I’d appreciate it if you didn’t post John Hutchinson video’s.
            I can lose hours and hours. I can even forget to eat. 🙂

            Many of his video’s are fascinating and hard to get away from.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Hahaha – I though I was doing people a favour by making the full transcript of the words he says which are often a little mumbled and a poor recording.

            That he lists a series of scientists that studied his findings and experimented in detail based on them, and that their conclusion was that the effects happened when microwave frequencies of a particular wavelength range was used was fascinating.

            IMPO, you need a MW that will set up resonant standing waves in the sample (base on its length) to allow for resonance based gains to create the conditions for the charge clusters or whatever to form. Then you use this specific band which acts at a different level (perhaps depending on the element), to trigger the effects.

            If the sample or resonant cavity is sized for this particular frequency range, you may only need that frequency.

          • Toussaint françois
          • Bob Greenyer

            Yes, we are going to get there together. Many implementations without really understanding why they work, but that they do. With understanding and knowing, embodiments will become obvious.

          • Toussaint françois

            Agreed !

          • Bob Greenyer

            I made a post out of it because it touches on some related aspects quite nicely, thanks for the heads up, saves me a lot of time explaining some of the bits of how it could be working.


          • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax
      • Warthog

        The key phrase here is “skilled in the art”. With all due respect to Bob and most of the rest of those I know to be associated with the MFMP efforts, in this specific case, none of them qualify.

        The codeposition approach involves sophisticated CHEMISTRY, and in specific, electrochemistry. This is a whole ‘nother animal from the solid-phase approaches used by Rossi and others, and needs a totally different skills base.

        I “am” a chemist, but in a different field of chemistry. Even so, I don’t consider myself as sufficiently skilled to succeed in such an effort without a fairly long (and expensive) learning curve. Such an effort needs at least one really expert electrochemist on the team, and probably more than one.

        All that negative said, there have already been sufficient studies done to establish scientific validity. The problem is politics overpowering valid science.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Warthog who wrote:
          “All that negative said, there have already been sufficient studies done to establish scientific validity. The problem is politics overpowering valid science.”

          Well said, totally correct.

          Started when someone at MIT altered their original P&F replication data to show a null result and MIT, once they finally admitted the fraud, did nothing to those that committed the fraud.

          • georgehants

            Engineer48, please see my reply to Warthog above.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Perhaps I was not clear enough, the intent was to do this in the chemistry department of the University of Aarhus, with highly experienced chemists. I learnt a long time ago that if others know better, and are willing, delegate. If you can’t find anyone that knows better that is willing, try yourself or walk away.

          We were all children once.

          • Warthog

            Which is exactly the way it should be done. I’m not being critical of either your or MFMP…just pointing up what is needed for success. Although I do think that many of the failures of the solid phase attempts are due to inadequate appreciation of potential chemistry related errors in the pretreatment and handling of the materials, many of which are highly sensitive to exposures to oxygen and/or water.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Perhaps we were trying to hard – Parkhomov did is handling in air.

        • georgehants

          I think Bob has confirmed that there is no open published information that can be followed directly by somebody skilled in the art, which is a general term used in patents meaning openly repeatable. As i have said many times.
          You can go on forever finding excuses to cover your error, that will only make things worse.
          I look forward to the first open repeatable publication by anybody, anywhere of the method to show a Cold Fusion COP above one.
          I certainly hope it is the Wonderful, non-profit seeking, altruistic MFMP that succeeds.

          • I look forward to the first open, repeatable publication by anybody, anywhere of the method to show a Cold Fusion COP above one.
            ***It has been done and published more than 153 times in peer reviewed literature.

          • Warthog

            What do you thing the SPAWAR publications are?? Chicken soup?? Having gotten 24 patents in my career, I think I understand what “skilled in the art” means probably better than you. The information is there, as are the replications. The science is settled. LENR is real. The problem is, as it has been the case since 1989, the “science politics” against LENR, including outright fraud.

            The only error here is yours.

          • georgehants

            Warthog, if I where you I would blame the Russians for hacking into ECW and putting up all the errors in your comments and reply’s.
            If you want to try and make yourself correct then put up a link showing an open, repeatable method including everything necessary so that MFMP can follow today showing a COP above one, as I have asked from the beginning.
            Please stop giving incorrect reply’s that do not comply with my request and making out that they contain all the information necessary for immediate replication.
            The Mindset That Makes It Hard to Admit You’re Wrong
            The hard part about admitting you’re wrong is, well, admitting you’re wrong.

          • Engineer48

            Frank is there an ignore feature that I can use to stop seeing / reading this persons posts?

            Found it, Block User. Done.

          • georgehants

            Engineer48, perhaps you would like to put up the link that you promised showing the Evidence you “claim” exists, or are personal attacks your only recourse left to hide your inability to do so?

          • Warthog

            Please link to (or describe process).

          • Engineer48

            Hi Warthog,

            How to block a poster:

            Click on posters name.
            Takes you to their Disqus profile.
            Click on “…” which is at the right side of Follow.
            Click on Block.

          • Warthog

            Found it. Engaged. Thanks.

          • If I were you I would quit handwaving over those 153 peer reviewed replications.

          • georgehants

            Kevmo, if I where you I would read my comments before replying, if you wish to join the fray then please put up a link to an open, comprehensive, complete, published report that contains full information for somebody skilled in the art to immediately replicate a Cold Fusion device with a COP above one.
            Or forever hold your peace.

          • 153 reports. Time for you to hold your peace .

          • Warthog

            Apparently Bob disagrees with you, since he and MFMP were planning to undertake exactly such a study. And in fact, his description of why they were forced to abandon said study is in point-by-point agreement with my position (i.e. that it is the politics and not the science that is the problem).

            So, yet again you are simply wrong.

    • Andrew

      His stuff and story was always fascinating.

      • Bob Greenyer

        He was a doer. But he self admittedly was no scientist.

        It is when people like Kenneth Shoulders (SRI, CIA) show they respected his work and the likes of Harold Puthoff (Earthtech, CIA) wrote to him and wanted to work with him and his work at Boeing and that scientists at Lockheed Martin Skunkworks talk of the importance of his findings, you have to pay attention.

        But, when you look at his samples and know that he was using variable frequency light generators (RF/MW) in combination with spark gap driven Tesla coils or van der graff generatos and seeing all this stuff like transmutation and highly energetic events it gets really interesting.

  • Bohem FromCz

    Clovis wrote: “My guess would be that they will not release it.”
    Of course that they will not release it.
    They can not release something, they have not own !!
    Remember Rossi? He told that IH can not sell him back IP which do not own.
    Why could Rossi told these?
    Because he gave it them newer!!!!!
    I does matter what is written in agreement papers.
    This is his only defense against big money.

  • Hi all

    In reply to Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    To apply the Tort IH would have to refute their sworn pre court testimonies. They and their lawyers would then be reopening the original case that would then be an open and shut case, and IH would loose all rights that way. Plus they would have committed a crime: Perjury.

    I realise that IH spin merchants cannot accept IH would have lost the case and so they settled. As with others. I think it was the remarks IH Lawyers made that were factually incorrect and lead to the mistrial and to why IH realised they could not win.

    Better to pay Rossi his full amount than have to face a minimum of three times that.

    Kind Regards Walker

  • Engineer48

    Hi Abd,

    So IH will go to market with Rossi IP that they claimed never worked.

    Would suggest that will not happen.

    It would seem IH have poisoned their well or will they bite the bullet and retract their claims it never worked so they can make really big money from marketing reactors based on Rossi IP?

  • in fact a good way now for Rossi to get paid 89Mn$
    would be to implement a serious GPT, obey the requirement of IH, and provide a serious report.

    That Rossi did not do that since the beginning should raise many red flags to his supporters.
    In that sea of red flags I don’t expect much.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Hiram,

    Yes have been in contact with Andrea.

    Learned all new Leonardo reactors will be Quarkx based.
    Which means Leonardo will need to obtain new plant safety certification.

    There may be another way for me to obtain a ECat reactor.

    If IH would like to sell me a few of the smaller 10kW box like Blue Cat reactors, complete with the control box, I’ll have a go at getting them to purr nicely.

    As IH claim they do not work, IH should consider them junk and be willing to sell them to me at junk prices.


    Yes I’m shouting so IH can hear me.

  • Engineer48

    If IH would like to sell me a few of the smaller 10kW box like Blue Cat reactors, complete with the control box, I’ll have a go at getting them to purr nicely.

    As IH claim they do not work, IH should consider them junk and be willing to sell them to me at junk prices.


    Yes I’m shouting so IH can hear me.

    • It’s all over but the shouting.

  • sam

    July 8, 2017 at 6:59 AM

    Dr Andrea Rossi,
    Were both parties satisfied with the settlement?
    Andrea Rossi
    July 8, 2017 at 2:57 PM
    To make a settlement are necessary two parties. When a settlement is achieved between the two parties, obviously both parties are satisfied.
    Warm Regards,

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      It is not accurate that a settlement requires all sides to be “satisfied.” Rather, it requires all parties to choose settling over alternatives. Overall, a settlement might even be disappointing, in some way or other, but be seen as the best available choice, under conditions obtaining at the time of the settlement. Or it might even be a poor choice, but the party decides to follow counsel. My advice to any party is to declare satisfaction, which is what Dr. Rossi has done, and move on. That is what is most likely to create a future worth living into, which is my hope for Dr. Rossi and everyone involved.

      • Omega Z

        Generally, out of court settlements result in neither party being completely happy.

  • Bob Greenyer

    ECCO – Understanding how the ECCO ‘FREE ENERGY’ reactor might work – part one

  • An auction would establish a true market value.
    ***In Mercato Veritas

    • Bob Greenyer

      I see what you did there

      • Good, then my subtlety wasn’t lost on you… 😉

  • What stands is their claim that they were unable to verify Rossi’s claims by making reactors that clearly demonstrated excess heat when measurements were tightened up.
    ***No, that claim does not stand. Rossi delivered a working reactor according to the Penon report, written by the person both sides agreed was a suitable third party. What happened to IH was the Fred Flinstone problem which is that they could not get it to keep working once Fred Flinstone/Rossi was gone, and that is not in the contract.

  • Warthog

    “They don’t provide any feedback, as the quoted text in my previous comment shows they only vote on competing economic plans.”

    What do you think “feedback” is?? Voting is exactly feedback. So is spending money.

    “These programmers are recallable, and their programs easily checked by any standard home computer today.”

    Sure they are….”if” anyone finds out about the changes, which could be either in the program or in the input data. Sorry…..not workable in the real world.

  • Warthog

    “Voting as described is not feedback, usually feedback has an effect on
    the proposed policy, it does not effect the winning economic plan.”

    The results of a vote are most certainly feedback. And it most certainly “effects the economic plan”, as only one plan is implemented and others not as a result.

    “This sort of model is already working in the open source community, there is little justification in calling it impossible.”

    That a sub-process of Cockshott’s plan works “somewhere” is no indication that the complete process will work.

  • If Rossi Grease is necessary, the technology would not have been transferred.
    ***The technology is the box and the IP, plus the independence of the ERV report shows that it took place. So the claim does not stand. But since the case was dismissed with prejudice, neither does it mean that the claim was lost directly in a court of law. It is an undecided claim, not a claim that stands.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      The technology is not the box. It is the usable knowledge of how to make the box and the fuel, and how to operate the box, together with a license allowing use of this. All the claims, unless retracted, stand as claims. Yes, the case did not decide the claims. Technically, the individual claims were not withdrawn, unless they were withdrawn in a settlement. Some claims obviously remain, such as the existence of an Agreement, signed and binding with valuable consideration. That Agreement could be modified by Agreement of all the parties (not by IH and Rossi alone). IH and Rossi could come to some mutually binding Agreement, separately. The Agreement did not contemplate cancellation. I don’t recall seeing the IH-AEG side-agreement, under which it appears that AEG was paid maybe $5.75 million. What happens if Rossi sells the license back to IH? I don’t know.

      • The technology is not the box.
        ***The technology is the box, according to the contract. It’s like Rossi was driving a 2015 Toyota Corolla and everything suddenly went back to the middle ages. He could deliver the box, drawings, IP, etc. but the middle agers would not have a working Toyota inside of 8 weeks. That’s what happened to IH.

        It is the usable knowledge of how to make the box and the fuel,
        ***Nope. It is not how to make the box. That IP would have cost IH more than its entire net worth by about 10x.

        and how to operate the box, together with a license allowing use of this.
        ***Those 2 things they got in the contract and the ERV report.

        All the claims, unless retracted, stand as claims. Yes, the case did not decide the claims.
        ***Then that means the claims do not stand, any more than Rossi’s claims of Fraud against IH. A dismissal is a dismissal of all claims.

        Technically, the individual claims were not withdrawn, unless they were withdrawn in a settlement.
        ***That’s exactly what the settlement is, a withdrawal of all claims in this case, not to be taken up ever again.

        Some claims obviously remain, such as the existence of an Agreement, signed and binding with valuable consideration.
        ***That is not a claim. That is a fact.

        That Agreement could be modified by Agreement of all the parties (not by IH and Rossi alone). IH and Rossi could come to some mutually binding Agreement, separately.
        ***The Agreement is void at this point, per the dismissal of the case. Rossi and IH would have to sign a NEW agreement, completely separate. Not bloody likely. And any court that looks at a new lawsuit that looks suspiciously just like the old lawsuit is going to throw it out.

  • georgehants

    I have been informed that there have been some experiments done that are reasonably repeatable, although not quite conforming to the open full instructions that I described, I apologize un-reservedly to Engineer48, Warthog etc.

  • Bob Greenyer
  • Warthog

    “Any subcomponent you could point to within cockshotts proposal has a
    working example in the world somewhere or sometime in history… the
    combined parts make the whole and complex behaviors may arise to cause
    unintended problems, but to request the system to meet that bar is to
    set it higher than capitalism has ever achieved.”

    Given the abysmal track record of all attempts at socialism, setting a higher bar is most certainly justified. Attempts to institute socialism have directly killed hundreds of millions of people. Capitalism at its worst has never even come close to such a death toll.

    Serious question……what is so attractive about socialism that supposedly intelligent people keep pushing it despite its many demonstrated failures and truly horrible track record. Is it that all you supposedly more-intelligent sorts think you should be in charge and are not??

    .”. even now we are
    having to institute new components to keep this centuries old economic
    system from collapsing on itself.”

    Yes, successful systems evolve. That is how they stay successful. I have no doubt that capitalism will be replaced, but I also think that any replacement system will be evolutionary and not “revolutionary”. But the probability of a “top-down” total system replacement of the sort advocated by Cockshott and other crackpots succeeding is nil.

    • invient

      >Given the abysmal track record of all attempts at socialism, setting a higher bar is most certainly justified.

      I could say the same about capitalism… Im perfectly capable of saying that the USSR system was severely flawed and failed because of an endogenously generated bureaucracy, and I ask that you give the C&C proposal the designation you give the current system, an evolutionary change which addresses those faults and may or may not succeed. We can’t prove it will, for the same reason we can’t prove the coming new form of capitalism will.

      >Capitalism at its worst has never even come close to such a death toll.

      Using death as a metric is quite morbid way to judge a socio-economic system… How do we attribute a death to the socio-economic system? Is death due to hunger, unaccessible healthcare, and other poverty related diseases counted? If that is the case, capitalism kills 8 million children a year due to poverty according to UNICEF (specifically inability to pay for food). Every ten years it commits a similar magnitude of death as the USSR in its entire existence, and that is without counting adult deaths in the global capitalist system.

      Under a socialist system, the distribution of food would not depend on your ability to pay.

      >Is it that all you supposedly more-intelligent sorts think you should be in charge and are not??

      We wouldn’t be advocating sortition if we wanted to retain power. That is actually the goal of that part of C&C’s proposal to prevent the same development that happened in the USSR.

      > but I also think that any replacement system will be evolutionary and not “revolutionary”. But the probability of a “top-down” total system replacement of the sort advocated by Cockshott and other crackpots succeeding is nil.

      I agree that evolutionary change is better than revolutionary, and history bares that out. C&C does not require revolutionary change. The first stage is starting from the lowest form of political organization, using demarchic principles, and then moving onto higher and higher forms to the point that city councils and municipalities are ran by demarchy. At that point the city and municipalities can form a network of production units using C&C’s labor tokens with the political aim of providing full employment. From kalecki we know this introduces an instability in the capitalist system, labor not employed by the city or municipality can negotiate ever increasing wages… prices will inflate, profit rate will decline, financiers will not make loans, lay offs start happening, and that labor finds its way into the city and municipality production network. This process can be slowed or sped up simply by demarchic setting of an allowed unemployment rate, always below the NAIRU.

      • Warthog

        Your responses are typical of the intellectual dishonesty that any attempted conversation with Marxists always sinks to. Death is the ultimate measure of evil. The deaths from socialism are the direct result of people deliberately MURDERED because they happen to disagree with the Marxist-socialist memes. There are, in addition, huge numbers that have died from other causes in socialist cultures. How many starved to death in the Soviet Union?? China?? Cambodia?? How many are starving now in Venezuela?? How many have died in sub-Saharan Africa in leftist “wars of liberation”.? NO capitalist system has ever deliberately murdered its own citizens en masse.

        The statistical track record actually shows that the more capitalist aspects third world nations adopt, the more their standards of living rise, deaths from starvation go down, and on and on. It is in those countries that continue to try to establish forms of socialism/collectivist systems that have the poorest economic track records.

        The ultimate twin study is North Korea vs. South Korea. Same raw materials, same people base, same geography/geology and all other starting factors. In one, people are dying of starvation. In the other, they enjoy virtually first-world economic conditions.

        And in the face of this continuing evil, all you and your ilk can manage is theoretical fantasies.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Bruce,

    One operational arrangement I can see is the lower Tiger ran fully submerged and preheated the condensate to boiling, which was then dumped back into the condensate holding tank and then pumped into the upper 3 Tigers which then were acting as superheaters.

    Do note West told of hearing the water in the condensate holding tank boiling, which should not happen as the return condensate from the 2 heat exchangers should be liquid.

    Also West’s statement about hearing boiling water destroys Smith’s statement that the plant pumped around warm water.

    Please note we have never seen the northern side of the Tiger stack and what piping could be there.

    I also note there were at least 2 piping alterations to the 4 banks of 6 prominent pumps at the West end of the Tiger stack,

    So the plant layout changed as Rossi gained plant knowledge.

    If it was a scam, nothing would have changed but it did change as would a real operational plant change.

    • Bruce__H

      Engineer48 said

      “Do note West told of hearing the water in the condensate holding tank boiling, which should not happen as the return condensate from the 2 heat exchangers should be liquid.”

      I have located the passage in question. It is in 235-11 page 33 and is part of an internal IH report on the debriefing of Barry West regarding the operations at Doral. The debriefing was considered necessary after Joe Murray was barred from touring the Doral site in August 2015.

      In the report, Murray says “BW indicated that when standing near the E-CAT heater tank that the water in the tank is boiling vigorously”. BW is Barry West.

      By “E-CAT heater tank ” Murray means one of the tanks of the Big Franky units. Barry West is hearing vigorous boiling inside the Big Franky, not inside the internal condensate return tank (which Murray calls the “feedwater tank”).

      Indeed I don’t understand your picture of vigorously and audibly boiling water existing inside the condensate return tank since that tank is not heated directly. Even if you dump preheated boiling water it, how would the water in there produce audible boiling sounds? I think your engineering intuition is letting you down there.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Bruce,

        Please stop changing what West said because it does not fit what you wish to believe.

        A tank is a tank.

        A ECat reactor is a Big Frankie.

        West did not say he heard boiling in the Big Frankie.

  • With a dismissal with prejudice, it is over, the claims cannot be filed again, based on the same alleged damages. But new damages could result in new claims.
    ***Nope. No new damages can be asserted over a contract in which the case was dismissed. They would need a NEW contract. And most likely any new damages asserted in a new contract between IH and Rossi would end up with a dismissal, thus offering no legal protection to either party.

  • Engineer48

    Glad to see the Judge understood this was a contest between to men.

    Interesting that as Darden walked from the court, not shaking anyone’s hand as Rossi was doing, he said to Abd that Rossi was a “Smart Man”.

    Makes it fairly clear who won.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      He did not say that. E48 is adding meaning to a report that was not there. As I recall, Darden did shake my hand, I merely did not mention it. His manner was always cordial, more open than Rossi, which is not a criticism of Rossi. Darden actually made some comments to me relating to the case or overall issues. “Smart man” was not about Rossi.

      What another has written about settlements, particularly this late in the process, not fully satisfying anyone is generally true. It is also true what Rossi wrote, that parties would not have agreed if they were not satisfied. These use somewhat different meanings of “satisfied.” In the circumstances of that day, the 3rd party defendant attornies would be quite happy. They got what they wanted, dismissal with prejudice. I will be writing more about the implications, and I am hoping to see a joint statement, which Rossi said would be issued. I have another indication that they may still be working on that. Nobody involved would want to bollix that by premature comment.

      So is there an agreement? What we know: they agreed to mutual dismissal of claims with prejudice. The information I had when I first heard this, as what was happening, was that any details were to be worked out between the parties privately, the court added that each party was to bear their own costs. With that, the court was done. The parties could negotiate any details they can agree upon. From what I saw, this was not anticipated by anyone except maybe Lukacs. It is possible, however, that Lukacs based his proposal to Pace on a prior offer, previously rejected (most likely by Rossi). If so there would have already been the outline of a possible more complex agreement. For example, perhaps Rossi bought back the License. If so, however, I expect we will eventually learn this, though not necessarily the price.

      • Vinney

        I note that you are ‘entraced’ by the manouevres of a financial wizard the likes of Darden.
        I am pleased that a creator/inventor prevailed over people that basically just talk all day.
        In the time Rossi created the 1MW plant, ran and improved it and finally also discovered the QX and further developed it.
        These ‘financial wizards’ you so relish only had to get paperwork and due-diligence right and they didn’t manage that.
        By the way, most of the original contract was also deviced by Rossi.
        There is very little to marvel about Darden, IH or Cherokee.

        • cashmemorz

          Yet Rossi agreed to deal with them. No matter how the likes of Rossi are, money still talks. As Walter Cronkite of journalism fame always said at the end of his news cast: “And that is the way it is. Good night everyone.” How the world operates is a mishmash of a confluence of a great many things. Most of which we have no control over. That is WHY it is the way it is.

  • sam

    Rossi Industrial Heat Lawsuit Settled
    Published July 8, 2017 | By jennifer
    Cold Fusion and Lenr Blog

    The comedy of errors known as Andrea Rossi’s lawsuit against Tom Darden and Industrial Heat is over. The jury trial before U.S. District Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga ended after just 48 minutes in court on July 5, 2017.

    Rossi and Darden’s attorneys apparently hammered out some sort of agreement and shut down the farce, a post on LENR Forum posted on E-Cat World indicates. This came after a mistrial and a failure to seat a Jury on July 29, 2017. The court apparently took the Fourth of July holiday off then came back and ended the trial.

    No details of the settlement are available because Rossi and Industrial Heat have apparently signed a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). That means Rossi can post to his Journal of Nuclear Physics blog again but cannot discuss the litigation.

    Rossi himself admitted this in a July 5, post to the Journal:

    “The terms of the settlement will remain under NDA forever, as per request of the Attorneys of both Parties.

    Personally, I am glad to be free to return to work full time for my E-Cat.

    I will never anymore talk about the issues of the litigation. They belong to the past. The war is over, now we must build a constructive future.

    From now I return to talk with our Readers.

    Warm Regards,


    My guess is that Rossi and Darden wised up and realized that a trial would be a waste of time and money so they made a sensible settlement. We will not know what that is until their attorneys make a joint statement at some time in the future. Rossi revealed that the General Terms of the settlement will be revealed then.

    Rossi is now back at work on his e-cat QuarkX low energy nuclear reaction (LENR) device. Rossi once again promised a public demonstration of his technology within the year but did not give a specific date.

    The inventor also announced that he is still planning to manufacture the e-cat in Sweden and the United States. No dates for the beginning of production were announced. It looks as if things are back to normal with Andrea Rossi

  • oreo57

    No NDA on the “settlement”..

    There is this though:
    Confidentiality. Defendants shall not disclose the Energy Catalyzer Fuel Formula to any other person or entity
    unless and until the Energy Catalyzer Fuel Formula is publicly disclosed by Rossi, Leonardo or someone
    acting on behalf of Rossi or Leonardo. ect