Poll: Rossi v. IH Settlement — Who Won?

I noticed a thread on the vortex-l mailing list with the title “Why Rossi ‘Won'”, and it gave me the idea to put a poll up to see what the readers here thought about the outcome of the Rossi v. IH lawsuit, which ended with this settlement.

The options available are: Rossi/Leonardo, IH, Neither (it was a lose-lose result), or Both (a win-win outcome). I decided not to include “attorneys” as an option, as I think that’s pretty obvious in most court cases of this kind. As with many polls, the options available might not be specific enough to reflect your thoughts, so please feel free to explain your thinking in a comment.

The poll is found on the right side of the page.

  • Bohem FromCz

    Rossi won, if he will show E-Cat beside any doubts.
    IH won, if Rossi has nothing.
    Irresolutely is not possible.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      If the Rossi technology is real, Rossi blew an opportunity to rapidly develop it, based on his paranoia, a paranoia that was not confirmed in the court documents, in spite of intense efforts at discovery. He got what he wanted, but sometimes that’s the worst kind of loss we can experience.

      (Rossi works alone, almost entirely. He doesn’t trust others enough to be able to handle more than one major project at a time. Otherwise, he’d have had E-cats operating in, say, Sweden, long ago. I have known bright engineers, have worked for them. They were business failures, because they always wanted to improve their product a few more steps before hitting the market, and so they missed market opportunities. Business success involves people skills, not just bright ideas. Sane inventors without the skills hire people to handle those matters, but some inventors are not sane. They commonly end up losing everything.)

      It’s commonly claimed that Rossi offered his distributors their fees back plus 10%. According to whom, and were those refunds actually paid? An anecdotal report: http://coldfusioncommunity.net/i-posted-on-jonp-june-27/#comment-4818

  • BillH

    As of the start of the test, everyone lost, both money and time.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Rossi revoked IH licensing rights. The settlement affirmed IH’s loss of licensing rights. Rossi won.

    • Buck

      And the distance and depth between winning and losing is geometrically compounded by the pending demonstration of the E-Cat QX, an evolution of the technology attaining a COP = 22,000 and a COP=2000 when harnessed as a heat source, as compared to the COP = 60 for the older version of the E-Cat.

  • Bet it was a settled amount.

  • georgehants

    To me the participants are irrelevant, (excepting fair reward for Rossi’s work) the World did not win.

  • sam

    A.R. received around 10 million from I.H. so Rossi able to keep researching LENR.
    T.D. said his investment was not all about money because he has lots of money.
    He said it was also about making a better world.
    If Rossi is succesful IH will be the ones who kept Rossi going.
    So maybe they both can be winners yet.

  • attaboy

    This and other articles are just a distraction. E-cat, or whatever Rossi is calling it now a days, should have been commercialized long ago.

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    Win/lose thinking can be so primitive. “Won” compared to what? I answered both, because I find this obvious: all parties considered the outcome preferable to continuing with the lawsuit. Therefore, compared to that, they all won.

    However, from another point of view, the settlement ended a lawsuit. Did Rossi win the lawsuit? He has, in the Mats Lewan interview, claimed that his goal was the recovery of the License from IH. However, he didn’t ask for that in the suit. There is no record of any formal offer to IH to return the license for compensation (the 2016 interview claiming that, we have learned, was not about a formal offer to IH, but merely about blog comments). Rossi filed a lawsuit for $89 million plus triple damages for fraud, spent as much as millions in legal fees, and it was dismissed with prejudice. That looks like a loss.

    But maybe it forced IH to give the license back? It doesn’t look like that to me, and it didn’t look like that in court. IH wasn’t forced to do anything. They could have walked away after the Judge dismissed the case. I.e., Darden could legally have refused to sign the settlement, but the case would have remained dismissed, and those claims were dead, could not be filed again.

    No, there is something that has been missed. Darden, in interviews in 2015, claims that his goal was to empower Rossi to do his best work. They found that they could do nothing with the technology, whatever the reason, and Rossi didn’t want to work withi them — because they had, as they openly acknowledged in 2015 — begun working with other inventors and researchers, whom Rossi considered “competitors.” (None of this activity impeded Rossi, the “problem” was entirely in his head.)

    Walking away, returning the License and the reactors to Rossi, would be entirely consistent with Darden’s declared stand in 2015.

    It is easy to think that IH lost; after all, they invested about $20 million and got, on the face of it, nothing.

    However, their bold risk-taking with Rossi impressed Woodford, I think. Woodford was not impressed by Rossi, apparently, read the Ampenergo or Cassarino notes. They were impressed by Darden et al. So for the IH goal of supporting LENR research, they received an additional $50 million, for that purpose, with more being possible. They won, in many ways.

    LENR is very risky, has been for decades. Anyone who invests in LENR expecting quick profit — or any profit, necessarily — is likely foolish. IH learned from the experience, I’m sure, and will be in a better position to move with deliberate speed if better opportunities appear. That’s a win, as well.

    Rossi has his License back, what he claims he wanted. Engineer 48 wrote here that he wanted a reactor from Doral. Well, Rossi has them, so E48 could negotiate with the man himself. I wonder how that will go.

    If Rossi had legal risk from Rossi v. Darden (my opinion is that the risk was high), it is vastly reduced. He is now holding his own bag. What’s it worth?

    In mercato veritas.

    • Steve Swatman

      The thing is, Mr Rossi thinks he won, Darden and co have kept quiet and are off making their millions with shell companies and what appear to be quite crooked deals and contracts, certainly seems that way to me as a layman. They have not had their name dragged through the courts and they have millions in investments for their other “projects” So i guess they think they won too. And in the end, lets hope all those millions Darden has in his funds produces a viable energy source or that Mr Rossi holds a concrete test with his Qx and starts a revolution sooner rather than later.

    • LION

      Hi Abd, I did send the email, If you could answer that would be appreciated, THANKS.

      Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax LION 10 days ago

      This must be a reference to LR-115. Write me at abdlomax at yahoo dot com.

    • “There is no record of any formal offer to IH to return the license for compensation ”
      ***As has been posted on LENR-Forum by Woodworker, those offers are not part of the record so that participants are encouraged to discuss things freely and aren’t hindered by how their back & forth would be characterized by parties seeking to harm their reputations. Just because there’s no record of formal offers doesn’t mean there were no formal offers, and in fact one of those formal offers became the framework for the final settlement.

  • Antonio

    I think it’s especially a Rossi win. He kept the 10M that had been given to him for the IP and now he also has the IP! It is also true that he has not been paid for the Doral test, but he still owns the plant, and it’s clear that the year he spent in Miami was useful for Rossi because now he is able to further develop his technology, so that year was not lost. IH, on the other hand, comes out of this story without anything in his pocket and with many millions spent on lawyers (they had also hired the best available!). It can be said that for Rossi there has been a lack of profit, but not a loss (apart from legal fees, but also IH had those). Darden lost the IP and the 1MW plant. It seems clear to me from what side tip the scale ….

  • there is LENR in labs, that is scientifically proven, much more than many thinga taken as sure fact and consensus.

    There is no LENR technology, as there is no knowledge empowering someone to design something that work, improve it… this requires some kind of theory.
    Brillouin could the the only reason to say there is a technology, but their theory does not seems to provide much advice for design, so from an engineering point of view it is not a theory.

    by the way, Brillouin theory and devices is very far from Rossi’s E-cat, real of mythic. and by the way, Brillouin reactor seems real and of interesting but modest performance.
    Saying that Brillouin stole technology from Rossi is like saying Pasteur stole immunization from Hahnemann.

    • I never said Brillouin stole anything. I said their tests prove nothing. The results were pathetic and easily explained by measuring errors and faulty testing procedures. Some of the test devices showed no positive energy gain at all. Those results are not consistent with a real product producing real energy.

      • I don’t say you, but Rossi accuse Brillouin of stealing his (mythic, non functional) IP.

        Accusing measurement to be erroneous for brillouin is no better tha those rejecting all LENR excess jheat results … if well made, calorimetry is precise.

        Rossi’s measurement are not imprecise, they are faulty.

      • Zeddicus23

        Apparently you haven’t read the report prepared by Stanford Research Institute (December 2016) which indicates small but significant and reproducible and repeatable energy gains for HHT’s at 300 C. See http://brillouinenergy.com/science/experimental-results/ and also http://brillouinenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/SRI_ProgressReport.pdf Coupled with these positive and reproducible results were results with negligible gain (controls) for which no gain was expected and which would appear to confirm the highly accurate calorimetry and input power measurement done by SRI.

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    You made that up. First of all, Darden was the largest investor in IH. His personal money was on the line. The other investors in IH were generally his friends. They supported him and obviously trust him. They knew the investment was very risky, it was never presented otherwise. There is no sign of any discontent from IH investors. Woodford also obviously trusts Darden.

    Woodford, contrary to common opinion around here, did not invest in Rossi technology, but in LENR, and specifically to allow IH to diversify. If Rossi had taught IH how to make working devices, Woodford would have provided $89 million to keep Rossi happy, and more to spur sub-licensing, that’s obvious from the case documents, which most people around here don’t actually read. I’ve been working on coldfusioncommunity.net to organize them to make access easier, starting with a basic docket index at http://coldfusioncommunity.net/rossi-v-darden-docket-and-case-files/ More is needed.

    Generally, these are people who actually care about the environment, at least they say they do, and Cherokee is designed to do well by doing good. IH was, even more so. It was a very long shot to invest in Rossi, given all that was known about Rossi in 2012, and the accusations flying, with some basis.

    So if Rossi hits the market with QX, and starts raking in the billions, they might applaud as they tap their friends at Ampenergo on the shoulder. Ampenergo was a party to the License agreement, and could sue to enforce it, my opinion. Now be nice, folks! No point in suing anyone if there isn’t actual money at stake.

    Read Mats Lewan’s book! His idea was that Rossi deliberately creates the appearance of being a fraud (to confuse and discourage possible competitors or imitators). One problem, then, how does one distinguish between a fake fraud and a real one?
    IH knew a possible answer. Buy the product and test it. What did they find?
    Any future and sane investor will look very carefully at all this. What will they see?

  • Bob Greenyer

    We win when we have access to the technology, anything else is distraction.

    • Warthog

      I think the most revealing point of the lawsuit was that Rossi was more interested in recovering his IP rights than in money. This says to me that Rossi himself believes he has “the real thing”, and is not “scamming”.

      • I agree. I do have to keep in mind that this is still a Rossisez situation and that IH is keeping relatively mum. But the settlement language itself is very focused on the recovery of IP, that part cannot be hidden.

        It amounts to IH valuing the IP at less than $89M but more than a year’s worth of lawyer fees. In the end their exposure to $267M loss and personal bankruptcy wasn’t worth it for what they had deemed worthless IP.

        If the IP was truly worthless then IH would have settled more than a year ago.

    • Domenico Canino

      You are right Bob. But all people in LENR is thinking about to make money. They never mind environment or pollution. So we have to wait for an outsider, who thinks different.

    • f sedei

      CORRECT!

    • Mats002

      Talking about the tech – what is the status with Suhas now?

      • Bob Greenyer

        More on that this week.

  • nietsnie

    At first it seemed to me that Rossi settling indicated that there was some flaw in his evidence. Because, on the face of the facts, it seemed to me that he had a slam dunk. Settling for less than everything, in that light, was troubling and made me question his potential for fraud more.

    But then I remembered that this was a jury trial. At some point, Rossi was going to have to convince a jury of his ‘peers’ that he had perfected cold fusion which, in the public lexicon, is synonymous with ‘outrageous fraud perpetrated against the simple-minded’. Jury’s don’t always rule on the basis of raw facts. Sometimes they are swayed by what ‘everyone knows is true’. This left him with the possibility of losing despite being in the right.

    In that light, a settlement seems like a reasonable preference for both sides. IH because Rossi called their bluff, had been willing to take it to the brink, and IH was vulnerable to the facts of this contract law case. Rossi because even being in the right from a contract law perspective was no assurance of winning the case. By settling, IH presumably saved at least some money, and Rossi presumably got at least some money. And neither had to publicly admit they were liars and cheats. And, by the
    end it was pretty evident that neither side was entirely unblemished. So ultimately – win/win. But – Rossi (presumably) got to keep his rights and made millions on the relationship, whereas IH (presumably) got nothing and lost money to boot. Advantage Rossi.

    • nietsnie

      Ah! Just read the settlement report. Surprised that Rossi got no additional money. Surprised that he feared that IH would keep the IP. Not surprised that his fear was based on it being jury-decided. So, in the end, Rossi got to keep what he came with (the IP) plus 10M to, essentially, beta his product for a year in an industrial, under-the-gun, situation – which is priceless experience. Meanwhile, IH got to avoid paying a huge sum of money – in spite of being on the wrong side of the letter of the contract – and got access to at least some inside info. Still, by a hair, advantage: Rossi.

      • f sedei

        If LENR works like Rossi claims, IH will have lost Billions of dollars in future profits. Big Win for Rossi.

        • Carl Wilson

          “If LENR works like Rossi claims,… Big Win for Rossi.” – Yes.
          If not, Rossi escapes scam-reveal. Moderate win for Rossi.
          Rossi wins.

      • Omega Z

        Had Rossi went for the 3x$89M=$267M, It’s highly probable that IH would have been able to keep the license. That’s the usual outcome in these situations. This is also what his lawyers pointed out. Rossi could keep the IP or take the money and not get the license back. The license is worth far more if it works as Rossi claims..

  • The poll should have a graduated scale, something like 0 = IH won outright, 3= IH won more than Rossi, 5= both sides won/lost 8= Rossi won more than IH, 10=Rossi won outright.

  • Steve Swatman

    Oh well done sir, the way you dance around Cherokees “mishandling” of the Brownfields business, the legalese you use to circumvent the actual situation, the defensive stance you take whenever it comes to Darden and his business practices. the smooth way in which you paint a positive light on the dark side of the fence and a dark light on Rossi’s side of the fence, (yet still claim to sit on the fence) is quite well done, manipulation of the English language and legalese at its best. I Have quite enjoyed reading your comments in the past, the manner in which you pick and chose your wording to misdirect, obfuscate and deliberately lead the reader into your own (one sided) take on the matter, while seemingly been factual and representative of the situation is quite sublime. And the effort you put into it is commendable. 😉

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      What “actual situation”?This is what I see here. I report and analyse what I find. I’m not sitting on a fence, but I look on all sides that I can find. I have come to certain conclusions, but I distinguish between my conclusions from the underlying evidences.

      I have been writing about LENR since 2009, and I make mistake, both as to fact and to interpretation. I depend on my readers to point them out. Mr. Swatman here does not point out any errors, and claims nefarious or highly biased intention, providing no evidence other than, apparently, he doesn’t like or doesn’t understand what I’ve written. He has made accusations about Darden behavior, providing no actual examples or evidence, nor does he point to any place where these are collected.

      Others have collected these accusations, and I have reviewed those claims. If I have erred, I have seen no specific critiques, only accusations against me, as to bias, or, often, allegations that I’ve been paid to write. If I have erred as to fact, and many of the claims about Darden et al err as to fact, I would appreciate correction with evidence or even a request to confirm with evidence what I’ve written, something specific. If I err as to interpretation, counterargument is welcome; interpretation is always opinion, not fact, though sometimes it passes “beyond a reasonable doubt,” but even that is opinion. Who judges?

      My ultimate position is similar to what Dr. Rossi claims: in mercato veritas. The judge is anyone who is putting their own time and/or assets at risk, and my goal is to support such judges with readily-available information and organized analysis. The information should be “evidence,” but it will also include the range of arguments that exist, which I also intend to document. I make no secret of my personal conclusions, but often do not emphasize them. If I unfairly present arguments or positions I disagree with, that’s a kind of error, and, again, I hope for correction.

      Recently, I saw something excellent happen on “Planet Rossi.” I use that term because it is actually neutral (even though it was originally used sarcastically. Rossi made very strong claims in the recent Lewan interview about the Pace opening statement in the trial, where Smith’s claim about the Prominent pump’s capacity was presented. This was allegedly so stupid that some have claimed that IH collapsed when it was pointed out to them. However, I’ve read all those arguments, and see serious defects in them. Instead of endless argument, two Rossi supporters agreed to actually buy one of the pumps and measure capacity. In other words, to investigate fact, regardless of whose “side” it might support.

      Darden and Cherokee behavior is obviously of interest to Swatman, because he relied in his comment on judgments of it. His is clearly not interested in fact, but only in highly partisan opinion. His comments here how what is too-often missing in discussion of controversies: he has no interest in reality, which is always greater than the realm of opinion, no interest in seeking consensus. Regardless of their possible faults and errors on LENR Forum, Alan Fletcher and IH Fanboy’s “effort … put into it is “commendable,” to discover and present fact, evidence, reality, in the presence of highly contemptuous and strongly-stated claims.

      The question here is “who won?” Winning is no ever a fact (unless it has been well-defined; i.e., if there is a chess game, and it completes and did not result in a statemate, we can say as fact which side won, but with a complex situation like this, the meaning becomes obscure and at least highly subjective. From my point of view, those win who accept and trust reality, and those lose who don’t. No matter how it looks to others, temporarily. “Reality” is not an opinion or interpretation, though we may have opinions about it and interpretations of it.

      • Vinney

        Abdu, I would like your honest opinion why IH did not find a Customer for Rossi’s 1MW plant.
        This would have meant they gather ‘solid’ evidenxe to incriminate him.
        I know you are going to come back and say, ‘Because they were not happy with the technology or Rossi’.
        By finding a Customer (potentially their own agent) they would have gathered (tarnished) evidenxe to use against Rossi to use during the 350 day test for their $11 million back.
        They were even so blinded by greed they forgot to even put their own instruments on the plant (which the contract entitles them to).
        These omissions speak to me, as they having made a calculated bet they could ‘outsmart’ Rossi and steal the IP, or a least stallmate his progress his last remaining years.

        • IH did not find a customer to do what you say because up until Rossi sued them, they probably figured they could work something out with Rossi. I think Rossi was pulling a Fred Flinstone, tweaking his dinosaur earthmover in such a way that only he could operate it. Rossisez himself that there was still a working relationship until he saw IH propping up Rossi’s competitors. IH didn’t figure it out until late in the game and all the goodwill was already lost.

    • Carl Wilson

      Steve, given your take on “mishandling”, perhaps IH won in that it (and other interested parties) escaped a lot of undesirable publicity.

      • Steve Swatman

        Perhaps you are right Carl, perhaps you are right. It may be that Mr Rossi will fail and LENR will again disappear into the fringes of scientific belief, only time will tell.

  • Ciaranjay

    There is also the possibiliy that LENR is a real effect but of no commercial viability. Like the old medieval picture of attaching birds to a cart to make a flying machine.
    I suppose it is even possible that “LENR” is more than one thing, which would make the situation even more confusing.
    The whole Rossi/IH fiasco has lowered my belief in LENR.

  • Gerard McEk

    If you look sec tot the suit, then I believe both have lost: lots of money to the layers as well as no 89M$ for AR and no IP for IH. If you look to the three years of cooperation between IH and AR then I believe AR is the winner, but IH has a reasonable insight in AR’s technology now. Only a pity for IH they can’t exploit that knowledge anymore.
    I am quite interested to know why the IH made 20 kW E-cats didn’t work. AR is investigating that now, what I understand…. So why were the cats dead and the Tigers alive and in top COP condition?

  • Chapman

    Just an observation…

    Too many of you are conflating the idea of “Winning” with other concepts, and totally missing the point.

    We are not examining who got the most value, or who will benefit most over time, or who avoided a greater future loss or embarrassment. And it is certainly not a question of who got “what was better for them” in some abstract, third-party analysis.

    Two parties entered the courtroom, due to a fundamental conflict that could not be amicably resolved between the two of them:

    1. Rossi had, in his opinion, performed the requisite tasks and expected to be paid the 89 million as agreed, or that the failure to pay the fee should be officially recognized as a breach of contract, and that such fully justified his previous action of terminating the license agreement, and thereby eliminate the potential threat of later legal action by IH when the E-Cat is marketed and the BILLIONS in revenue are pouring in. Rossi had previously TRIED to address IH’s expressed doubts and peacefully end the relationship and refund the partial payment made towards the license, but that offer was denied. Rossi could NOT move forward with the E-Cat until the IH threat was eliminated. He was not concerned with the pittance involved in the claim. He wanted Darden gone, and his IP control to be incontestable. Attributing any other schemes, motives, yearning or wild hopes to Rossi is pure fantasy, and is either the product of one being absolutely ignorant of the case, or an intentional FUD construct.

    2. IH wanted to screw Rossi, keep the license rights, pay him nothing more, and be in a position to control, or more likely suppress, the further development and marketing of the E-Cat.

    So, the question of “Who Won” is a simple issue of:
    who left the court having achieved their immediate goals?
    Who left the courtroom with a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment?
    Who slept that night like a baby, probably for the first time in many months and woke up whistling “O mio babbino caro” vs who spent the night on the phone explaining how they had thrown away 12 million dollars, and eventually greeted the rising sun by punching a hole in the bathroom wall?

    PLEASE!!!!
    Kevmo, the answer is “10”

    • I think the answer is 7 or 8. 10 would be Rossi winning $270M

      • Omega Z

        Yes, but then IH would still hold the license. The license should Rossi tech work is worth many times $270M.

        • If Rossi’s tech doesn’t work the license is worth $zero which means Rossi got them to pay more than $10M for something worthless.

          • Omega Z

            66 years old and moving forward with 11.5M to the positive. I find it hard to think Rossi’s tech doesn’t work. Control on the other hand is a work in progress.

  • wonderboy

    Well, I know you won’t like this, but IH won

    Here is why:

    IH knows the secret sauce and i’m sure they will go to market with one of their other LERN ventures that the patents don’t apply.

    Rossi won back his patents but exposed his industrial secrets, lost time dealing with the courts, and the legal action didn’t add any credibility to him.

    Anyways, let’s hope for production or any type of commercialization.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      Interesting conjecture, but might be a bit difficult to say that IH has the “industrial secrets” when the units that IH supposedly built failed in the year long test.

      • Omega Z

        Trade Secrets are protected property. There is 1 loophole, but otherwise have unlimited time limits unlike patents that expire within 20 years..

      • Steve Swatman

        Funny thing about those reactors for the 1yr test, they were also built by IH and didnt work, could one be led to think it may have been intentional sabotage? plain stupidity? incorrect methods? incorrect sauce?

    • Buck

      Hmm . . . . IH’s industrial secrets seem to be left in the dust. The one year test was with an older version of the E-Cat with a COP~~ 60 – 80.

      Rossi just provided information in the Gullstrom-Rossi paper of a major evolution of the E-Cat into the E-Cat QX. They attained a COP=22,000 unharnessed and 2,000 when harnessed as a heat source.

      It seems IH’s industrial secret may be an advanced ‘buggy whip’ compared to Ford’s Model T

    • Omega Z

      Secret Sauce=Trade Secret…

      If Darden makes use of this knowledge or devulges it to anyone, Rossi has legal recourse and could obtain DOUBLE any economic damages incurred plus legal fees..

      Yes, Trade Secrets can and are covered by legal protections. And they are acknowledged world wide.

  • HS61AF91

    The world community won. IH got to see that LENR is serious business, and can continue to encourage its development. The Doctore won by paving a lightening streak through into developments, improving E-Cat and leading to E Cat QX! The end result can only further both parities advancements. Bumps in the road for sure, but the end has never been insurmountable.

    • georgehants

      HS61AF91, so let’s just forget about the seven years that Rossi’s discovery (if genuine) has laid in his workshop with just him et al trying to improve it.
      You seem to be insulting every scientist in the World, including all those on these pages, capable of assisting in the development and saying none of them could ever have helped to speed the development, to actually help the World.
      The mind Boggles.

      • sam

        I like Suhas who just got to work and did his own research.

        • georgehants

          sam, o yes and at this time he seems to be doing everything he can to assist MFMP to freely replicate what he has found.
          Wonderful people who if they together archive things should be well rewarded by the society that will gain, without the ridiculous time wasting inefficient capitalist crap of today.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            And exactly what are the countries doing with the 120 billion pledged at the last climate summit? In
            fact what socialist government is contributing to LENR right now? Oh, right it
            all the private sector doing this work – not your socialist foe with their socialist
            ideas.

            Are you typing this post on a government invented computer, or one from the private sector? Hum??? Just exactly what system you talking about that has provided darn near any technical invention you use right now? You have to share here what “magic” alternative system you talking about – and do please share the examples of such socialist technology we all using on a daily basis.

          • georgehants

            Morning Albert.
            Global News
            Canada ranks poorly among wealthy nations for children’s well-being: UNICEF
            Canada ranks 37th on a list of 41 rich countries for children
            having access to enough nutritious food, and higher-than-average rates
            of child homicide and teen suicide also point to a need for action, a
            UNICEF report says.
            http://globalnews.ca/news/3529208/child-poverty-canada-unicef/

      • HS61AF91

        well, George, I said what I said, not ever diminishing the research of scientists, those harbingers of discoveries. I wish every researcher in the world only the best, for humanity’s benefit, and progress. It’s just the long hours over a year that Dr. Rossi devoted to his particular research seems to me to have paid big dividends for humankind’s future. I’m really happy at the progress, and though path to the present status of LENR genuineness may appear illusionary to some, The “E Cat” snowball is rolling down a mountain full of fresh snow, and that ‘discovery’ you disparage due to it taking seven long years in its advent, is really unstoppable. Thank you for commenting!

  • sam

    Alan Smith
    Moderator
    6 hours ago
    New
    +4
    Excellent email summary from Patent Lawyer David French and close follower of the Rossi story for several years, reposted wi


    David French writes:

    Here is an interview with Andrea Rossi on the topic of the Florida Court case, settled on July 5, 2017:

    https://animpossibleinvention.com/blog/

    Rossi is pictured repeatedly, sporting a generous silver wig designed to protect the skin on his vulnerable, formerly bald, head.

    The important content is the copy of the actual Settlement agreement at the end:

    https://animpossibleinvention.…/settlement-agreement.pdf

    It was not quite a walkway. Everybody releases everybody and Industrial Heat reconvenes to Rossi and Leonardo Corp the rights that it acquired to ECAT technology under the original 2012 agreement. No money exchanges hands in the settlement, but Leonardo Corp gets to keep the $11.5 million it received from Industrial Heat and gets the return of the 1 megawatt heat generation unit.

    What do these terms tell us?

    Rossi gave up his claim to $89 million but has reacquired the rights he held before. This allows him to argue that those rights are worth more than $89 million. Industrial Heat is liberated from the costs of trial both in terms of risk and lawyer’s fees, plus the not inconsiderable benefit of freeing-up management time to return to corporate activities.

    Another consequence: the August 25, 2015 US patent that issued to Leonardo Corporation is probably invalid or is subject to equity constraints because the Settlement Agreement acknowledges that there is a secret ingredient not mentioned in the patent. Both parties are committed to maintain that secrecy.

    David French

    • Bob Greenyer

      Is that secret ingredient like in Kung Fu Panda?

      • Omega Z

        Hey Bob,

        I’ve done some reading on trade secrets. I new there were some protections, but they are more protected then one may think. And they have no end date like a patent.

        Much has changed in recent years. As long as Rossi takes the appropriate measure NDA’s, contracts and such to protect the trade secret, they are reasonably protected including by International laws. Most countries have signed on and the few who haven’t do observe the laws. One big loophole, If I’m setting in a rain forest and come up with it without any outside help or reference, I can do as I wish with it. It has zero protection.

        With today’s technology, why has no one figured out the Coca Cola formula or the 11 herbs and spices(KFC) etc. We could nail it in fine detail as to what and the percentages of how much.(surely someone has) Because that would fall under misappropriation and is illegal. Of course nothing would stop such actions to develop a different variant. Of course this could also become a legal issue, but would be very hard to prove unless one ratted himself out. Just stick to the story. I came up with this alternative formula all on my own. Rossi WHO??? Never heard of him…
        I don’t encourage this behavior. I’m just saying…

    • Michael W Wolf

      But David, what if the secrets are in the fuel the device needs. The device can be built and be usable, but without the fuel it doesn’t work. Would that make it an invalid patent? Wouldn’t it be like a food product recipe?

  • Buck

    If you know how to cook . . . and per IH’s position in the lawsuit, they don’t know how to cook with Rossi’s magical sauce.

    • MasterBlaster7

      From what I remember…Rossi withheld the secret sauce from IH…He alone prepared all of the ingredients for the reaction…some of the ingredients have been made public knowledge but Rossi withheld some primary secret ingredients. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

      • Buck

        MB7,

        it is my understanding from the settlement that IH/Darden and those who were made aware of the ‘secret sauce’ had to convey back to Rossi all information (physical, electronic, etc.) outlining the details of the ‘secret sauce’.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Rossi won, he got his IP and his patents back and got rid of IH.

  • help_lenr

    corrections:
    * 3rd (nor 4th)
    * IP (not IO)

  • Mike Rion

    Frank, if this needs to be moved to another forum please feel free. This was posted over on LENR Forum by Wyttenbach, a fairly frequent pro-Rossi poster, even though they are kind of rare over there. Don’t know if he is active here, but this seemed fairly relevent. Over there it was only up for moments before it was deleted or moved to someplace where I couldn’t locate it. When I posted an inquiry that also was moved to la la land withing moments. Perhaps it is BS, but I would like to hear others opinions just the same. Mike Rion

    Wyttenbach · Jul 29th 2017, 2:01 pm
    Dear fellows: A year ago Jed Rotwell placed a link that pointed to an infected jpg. It showed up on the Apple macintosh using the photobook services and the hacked photosanlysisd tool. This NSA tools was clumsy as it required regular spin.dumps to collect the info gather on your PC.

    Since yesterday I know that NSA (the persons behind the alias Eric Walker) are again regularly monitoring at least my Mac. The back door they use is the apple helpd (heldp process) service where they use the plugin injection method.
    This process obviously is started/stopped by marked downloads from the LENR-FORUM. Today they marked an Alfors post.
    The backend of the NSA tool is the Akamai (Mossad/NSA cover company since more than 20 years active) distributed service layer of our LENR-forum host cloudshare.
    The backlink of my NSA connection pointed to IP 2.20.222.194 own by AKAMAI (Europe)

    If you use an Apple macintosh then I recommend to kill the helpd process (over process monitor) as soon as it pops up. Further on you should block all back traffic to the subnet 2.20.*.* may be more are needed.

    I have deep knowledge about NSA trapdoors since about 18 years. The sad news I have for Microsoft PC users is: NSA has full access to all PC’s worldwide as soon as they are online – you won’t be able to notice them. MS is fully cooperating with NSA (Apple not directly..) and delivers them an encrypted service password to directly access your system. The only – cumbersome – way to block them is to build your own router using a preconfigured rasperi phi and block all IP’s related to them. This includes all MS addresses, which you must open for updates again…
    In case of questions mail me at juerg@datamart.ch. If you don’t get an answer, then your mail was possibly captured.

    • Dubious

      An independant experts opinion:
      “That is total absolute and laughable bs. They didn’t even spell
      raspberry pi correctly. And you don’t need a raspberry pi to block that.

      Seriously silly nonsense. If he knew about this stuff so well why
      was he still running the said service (he must have been since he said it
      triggered when he visit the website)

      Total nonsense.”

  • Michael W Wolf

    Yea. Seems to me Darden really doesn’t think Rossi’s tech works. He just couldn’t prove it. Weaver went way beyond where he should have gone in accusing Rossi of fraud. For all your bias abd, at least you haven’t outright accused Rossi of fraud. Not matter how much you suspect it. And heck, you may be right, but I don’t think so.