Rossi: First E-Cat Plants Under Construction, Will Sell Energy, Not Plants.

I have been trying to find out a bit more about the status of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat commercialization plans, and it sounds like they are taking a more definite shape. Here are a few recent questions and answers from the Journal of Nuclear Physics that can help us piece things together:

Frank Acland
September 3, 2017 at 8:55 PM
Dear Andrea,

You say that your the first plants that you sell will be managed directly by you.

a) Can you explain what you mean by that?
b) Have you any agreements to build plants for customers yet?

Andrea Rossi
September 3, 2017 at 9:32 PM
Frank Acland:
a) that we will operate the plant and the Customer will not have access to the reactors
b) yes
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Frank Acland
September 3, 2017 at 10:50 PM
Dear Andrea,

Very interesting that you have agreements to build plants already.
a) Have you started building them yet?
b) When do you expect to have them completed?
c) Will you be selling the plant, or selling energy with these first plants?

Andrea Rossi
September 4, 2017 at 6:32 AM
Frank Acland:
a) yes
b) confidential
C) energy
Warm Regards,
A.R.

manuel cilia
September 4, 2017 at 6:04 AM
Dear Dr Rossi
The older Ecat where 1Mw in output, will the newer Xcats be of similar output or larger for industrial use.

Thank you

Andrea Rossi
September 4, 2017 at 6:30 AM
Manuel Cilia:
Higher.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Rossi stated recently that the control system had been finalized, and now he says that the construction of the first E-Cat QX plants is underway. We learn now that these first plants will sell heat — he won’t be selling the plants themselves.

In the near term that could make business sense, as it gives Leonardo a chance to monitor the performance of these first plants closely (essentially they will be prototypes), learn how the plants perform in real world situations, make adjustments as needed, while also preventing outside access to the E-Cat reactors which is the critical IP — at the same time making money from selling heat directly to customers.

I don’t know how long they would plan to keep up with this business model. It would seem to be quite labor intensive for Leonardo, as they would need to have their own staff on hand 24/7 to manage the plants. Rossi has said that these first plants won’t be mass produced in the sense that they will be made in dedicated “robotized” factories, but they have some level of automation — and they would have to if they are going to producing enough E-Cat QX reactors, and control sytems, to build multi-MW plants as he now states.

So it would seem to me, taking Rossi’s comments at face value, that phase one of industrialization has started. It is limited and probably quite costly for Leonardo, but it may be enough to get an industrial foothold, and allow them to build dedicated factories and next move into the mass production phase that seems to be Andrea Rossi’s ultimate goal.

  • AdrianAshfield

    Frank,
    I think your last paragraph is exactly the situation. He needs the operating experience and will build fully automated lines to make the reactors very price competitive before allowing them on the open market where they could be reverse engineered.
    I note that BLP is thinking of selling the output too.

  • Stephen

    I’m also curious how the technology could be best distributed given an initial limited supply of ECat devices?

    This touches on so many points philosophically, morally as well as practically from a production volume and production reliability point of view, I would hardly know where to begin thinking about it. I can really imagine myself starting with one point of view then revising it back and forward as I learn more about the implications.

    I would really like to see this technology widely distributed fairly especially where it is most needed but how would this be best achieved with an initial limited supply.

    It would be really interesting to see someone like Huw Price’s take in this.

    Would it be best to support a small but high profile project to demonstrate the product and its useability at an early time? Perhaps to really establish its use and potential market and generate global interest (both commercially but also practically in all kinds of scenarios including for those for humanitarian aid for example). But also to beta test the early versions of the device before wider distribution.

    Would it be best to use a large company to distribute the technology widely? Or would this lead to one larger company dominating the technology. Would using multiple companies help resolve this or would that just strengthen those companies at little benefit for everyone else.

    Would distributing the IP early on really help? Or would it just result in patent trolls jumping in the technology and patenting every possible application as well as every nuance in the technology itself.

    Would it be best used first to support, a few of the most needy in difficult environment? If so would this be the best way to ensure it gets distributed to even more intbe shortest possible time?

    Would it be best used to first support other forms of power industry and thereby perhaps pass the benefit to the most end users in the shortest possible time? If so could it be combined with the point above? Or would it only benefit the energy provider themselves and not benefit all the end users.

    Would it be best applied to enable other technologies that are hugely beneficial in their local environment but difficult to achieve practically or economically in normal conditions? Farming or water production in otherwise difficult environments come to mind. But it could also be other things such as making tractors or machines or public transport etc.

    Or would it be best applied initially to support its own production to build support more facilities to build even more ECats to in effect most efficiently increase the production volumes an early stage.

    Perhaps there are different approaches at different times during the distribution that are appropriate and I’m sure there are many points that I have not thought of.

    Perhaps someone with a better view of the moral and philosophical implications of such things than me should be involved in the loop regarding future planning and developments someday.

    Personally I think Andrea Rossi is obviously a thoughtful person has his own strong views and opinions and In my view has a good moral compass. I think he wants the ECat to be something beautiful and helpful that’s why he wants to take care of its distribution. I think it has little to do with personal enrichment through money or even fame but everything to do with taking care his invention is for good and is in good hands. Sometimes it’s hard to let something like that free into the world but eventually its time.

    • georgehants

      Stephen, Wonderful comment with all the right questions, it now needs people coming forward with answers, to archive the outcome that you so clearly would like to see materialise.
      I sympathise with your last paragraph but without a change in society whereby anybody achieving a discovery such as Rossi et al (if genuine) is rewarded by society immediately and that discovery is freed to be utilised by the whole of mankind, then the life destroying delay’s will continue.
      The choice between personal riches beyond fair reward, or the lost lives and suffering that could be avoided by caring and sharing is, I think, not very difficult for those brought up with or who develop a moral awareness.
      Best

      • Stephen

        Thanks George. I want to make a better reply but I still keep thinking of more layers… I do sympathies with your hopes for a caring and sharing society and hope it can be achieved but also understand the careful approach of others.

        Personally I wonder if there is scope for a diversity of approaches with a mixture of diverse cutting edge and more open simpler or older technologies that can support all positions in a similar way as happened with software. I think we may well find that such an approach could be mutually supportive.

        • georgehants

          Stephen, thanks again for your thoughtful reply, I never realised seven years ago just how much resistance there is toward caring and sharing, I naively thought that everybody would be overjoyed with the chance to quickly bring Cold Fusion to reality, to help all those in need in both the rich and poor countries.
          I have certainly learned just how wrong I was.
          Should I just give-up, I certainly feel like it many times.
          Best

          • Stephen

            Hi George. Don’t ever give up. Your words play an important role in reminding us what values are important. In many ways you are the voice of our better conscious.

            I’m sure that many important people involved in the field read your view point and consider them carefully when they decide what they do. I would hate us to forget the points you raise in the excitement of the technology. The world would be an awful place if we did that. we are better when we listen… and act accordingly with all considerations in view as we can.

            But a voice reminding us is indispensable in my view.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, it kind of strange that you complain about Rossi trying to “perfect” some system during a
            time in which people go hungry.

            Apple or Boeing does not own some special rights to capitalism. For the last 5000 years it is
            the ONLY system that feeds hungry people.

            There nothing stopping countries with starving people from adopting our system – it free to
            adopt. When we go into a store the food is piled so high we don’t know what to
            do with that food. A UN study says that for the FIRST time in history we have
            more obese people then we do starving people – a remarkable achievement of capitalism.

            So you could wait 500 years for some new system that comes along to feed people (the magical
            unknown system you keep asking for people to come up on this site). So why wait
            50 years for LENR or Rossi?

            It is beyond silly to not hand out leaflets and now tell those starving people NOW to adopt our
            western system of capitalism, and they will have stores with food piled up to
            the rafters.

            So you can’t complain about Rossi delaying things NOW when you ALREADY have a system that can feed the starving people – you just have to tell them about the system! And
            that system has no special rights that Apple or some such owns.

            You are free to get a tractor and grow potatoes or whatever.

            So while people are starving, people like you are NOT going around teaching people to reject socialism, and adopt capitalism that will feed these starving millions of people.

            Until such time you start blogging, writing and teaching people to reject socialism and adopt capitalism then you are just as guilty when complaining about Rossi delaying, yet you not
            going around teaching people a great way to feed themselves.

            I suppose you could continue to solicit ideas here for some new system, but then you would be delaying things while people stave. (Just like you claim Rossi is).

            If you honestly believe Rossi is delaying things, then you are just as guilty by not telling people
            what to do now to feed themselves.

            Even if Rossi invents a new tractor, or brings to the world low cost LENR energy, unless those
            starving people reject socialism and adopt capitalism, then they will continue
            to starve and go hungry.

            So the knowledge today to eliminate starvation exists – and it free information.

            So there nothing stopping a county from adopting capitalism and having piles of food in their
            stores – we don’t need LENR or Ross to change this simple fact.

            So a system exists now that really eliminates starving people – you are NOW simply responsible for telling people to adopt that system. I suppose you could wait for the next 50
            or 500 years something comes along better then capitalism that has eliminated starving
            people in every county it’s been adopted.

            People are 100% free to adopt a system NOW that will feed their people while you ask and wait for input on some “new” system that you hope comes along.

            So you just as guilty as Rossi by delaying and not promoting a way for starving people to not go hungry. We have that system now – it really silly to wait for Rossi or for YOU to wait
            for some magical system to come along to feed the people – that system and
            knowledge exists already.

            So all you have to do is tell people to reject socialism, adopt capitalism and they not have
            starving people. Until you do, then based on your comments and logic – you are
            the guilty one here, not Rossi.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • sumdum

    Assuming the reactors actually work, Rossi is clearly still fixated on making money instead of changing the world. Otherwise the focus would obviously be on licensing the technology so that much larger and more capable firms could handle the manufacturing and deployment of the reactors. It is a great shame.

    • Axil Axil

      As a top priority, Rossi wants to keep his IP secret for as long as possible.

      • georgehants

        Axil Axil, so you agree with sumdum’s comment that “Rossi is clearly still fixated on making money instead of changing the world.”
        You did not make that clear.

        • Axil Axil

          Rossi will change the world by replacing the coal and nuclear power production in utilities throughout the world except in China. In this large power plant environment. Rossi can keep his reactors well protected by using security in the same way that is now done for the current nuclear industry.

          • georgehants

            Axil Axil, yes possibly so but I was asking you, as your reply to sumdum seemed at cross purposes I am asking you to agree or disagree with his comment that at present “Rossi is clearly still fixated on making money instead of changing the world.”

          • Axil Axil

            Your priority and humanitarian based value system is directed toward personalized power production. This is unrealistic for LENR system’s deployment at this early juncture. It is not about making money, it is about control of the technology. The thing that Rossi wants to maintain the most is control.

          • georgehants

            Axil Axil, do you agree that Rossi should try and keep control rather than pass on for fair reward his knowledge, so that the most people can be helped by Cold Fusion the fastest, with thousands of scientists Worldwide advancing his brilliant discovery.

          • Axil Axil

            R. Mills will be Rossi’s competition. Mills has the same marketing plan as Rossi does but Mills will use law suits and patents instead of secrecy to enforce his IP. Look to Mills for small scale deployment.

          • georgehants

            Axil Axil, I see no reason for you to avoid my question?

          • Axil Axil

            I don’t beleive that Rossi wants to make things easy for science since they never gave him any help or credibility.

            Rossi wants to keep all competition to a minimum that includes science and open source.

          • georgehants

            Axil Axil, many thanks, would it be unfair of me to ask if you agree with that reasoning?

          • Axil Axil

            Any thought that I have had, good or bad, about LENR has been posted in the open since 2011 and before.

          • cashmemorz

            Have looked at details of Suncell operation. What sticks out in validation reports is the redacted info mostly about the “catalyst” name. This the secret sauce similar to what Rossi’s method of keeping the key item secret. At some points it looked like “nascent water”. Then that is not the whole story. It is a material that has to be tuned to be exactly what the electron has to give up in resonant mode, not as a waveicle of light transference. The obsorbing material receives the energy as a potential energy hole similar to how holes in doped transistors transfer energy along their lattice. This transference of energy from hydrogen in the Suncell seems to require proximity to the orbital at just enough closeness to allow the resonance to work. The quantity of catalyst would require just enough or a bit more than enough, so far it is in the .025 percent to the amount of water supplied via molten silver. Catalyst amount, as the term implies, stays throughout the life of the whole device, currently estimated at 20 years. Heat of molten silver converts H2O into HOH or Mills’ term “nascent water. The catalyst is also “reduced” during the high heat or plasma phase of the Suncells’ operation. The reduced material absorbs the energy in resonant mode from the hydrogen orbital. This brings to mind oxides of metals, possibly FexO (Raney?)being what had been used in early LENR experiments.
            What element has the energy absorbing range that is also the same range as resonance of the energy hole given up by electron from its ground state in mono-atomic hydrogen. This will answer range of possible catalysts. This energy transference drops the orbital state of the hydrogen electron to “usually” (of current method) to the 1/4 orbital. That is the state at which the current model of the Suncell is operating at. Lower orbital states for higher energy hole resonantly given up is a further design of the Suncell.

          • Piper

            Hydrogen bonds are so sticky that obtaining an isolated water molecule (HOH) from a water cluster is near impossible.

            The trick is the silver incorporates an oxygen bearing compound with a loose grip on the oxygen. A single oxygen plays tag with molecular hydrogen (2H) to form the HOH on the fly, immersed in a cloud containing single H (atomic). The catalyst HOH is ionized and thus single use; and, more must be continually generated to sustain reactions. The silver additive sequesters the free oxygen for recycle toward forming more HOH.

            Dig in the recent patent application for details.

        • Frank Acland

          I think he wants to do both, and I don’t think he believes he can change the world without money.

          • georgehants

            Evening Frank, yes I agree if he is genuine, he mentions Microsoft etc many times, he seems to want to become famous for his discoveries and helping the World and that like everybody is his choice.
            From the view of some, the debate is regarding the most efficient, quick and effective method of getting Cold Fusion out to where it is needed, is far more important than Ego, trying to do everything oneself etc. etc.
            It is, I think many would agree, a debate with far reaching consequences to this World in many areas.
            Should we try to improve the system for the gain of most or not?
            It certainly is an important debate regarding any following of Cold Fusion.

          • Stephen

            I think that could well be true. I really don’t think he is motivated to increase his personal wealth but does have some more important motivation behind this approach.

            It could well be that he has a bigger vision for the E-Cat either its distribution or its development and had really wants to behind the wheel during that.

            One thing that occurs to me is that the E-Cat is more than an energy technology in itself. The kinds of energy it can produce and the economy scales involved really make it an enabling technology allowing other technologies that were otherwise impractical to be viable. So perhaps his vision also encompasses this and he has more ideas he wants to develope

  • Gerard McEk

    Selling energy is surely a good proof that the E-cat really works, especially if you talk about energy in excess of megawatts. It would be interesting to know what price he asks for this.
    A calculation: 1m3 gas has an energy content of 9.769 kWh.
    To produce 1MW heat continuously you need 102 m3 gas per hour (~60-100$/h).

    • Axil Axil

      Under the sell heat strategy, it seems to me that economies of scale work to Rossi’s advantage. He could sell heat to a utility by adding 1 megawatt reactor modules until he got to the gigawatt level. A single operator could control all the 1MW modules from a central location if the control system is well designed. Such a control system could cut down on the need for a lot of employees that Rossi would need.

    • GiveADogABone

      http://www.energybrokers.co.uk/gas/historic-price-data-graph.htm
      All prices are in pence per Therm, where 1 Therm is 29.3 kWh.
      1US dollar equals £0.77

      At 40P/Therm (current London prices) = 1.365 p/kWh = £13.65 MWh = $17.72 MWh
      My gas bill shows 3.87 p/kWh = £38.7 MWh = $50.26 MWh

      At $10 MWh a 1MW QX plant makes $87,600 revenue per year. The plant output will be measured by (you guessed it?) flow calorimetry. Why sell the QX plants when you can sell the heat? The added value is large, when the capital cost of the 1MW plant is repaid. 1GW of QX plant with capital paid off makes $87,600,000 less maintenance expenses per year.

  • akupaku

    Probably the purpose of this strategy is for Leonardo to gain more real world experience and iron out problems, flaws and kinks before wider distribution and licensing if that is ever going to happen. A cautious and careful approach that makes sense for Leonardo.

    For us and the rest of the world this is kind of bad news because it means that it will take years and years before we see this technology in widespread use if ever. 8(

    What really is needed is some rapid progress in open source designs so that everybody everywhere can start applying LENR to real world problems and benefit mankind in the most effective way. Waiting for Rossi is not going to cut it and he risks remaining a small curiosity in the field. And what a perfect opportunity for the establishment to shut down his plants on one pretext or another like building and operating dangerous nuclear facilities without proper oversight and permissions.

    The history of new energy devices and inventions is full of cases where the technology is either bought off and buried or confiscated in the name of “national security” which is just a pretext to protect the income and investments of the establishment.

    Open sourcing the technology seems the only viable way to get it into widespread use as fast as possible. And the establishment can’t do anything to block such a distribution mechanism. The egoism, creed and paranoia of LENR inventors to protect their IP and hopes of getting rich is just going to delay things and the chances of such inventors of ever getting their stuff out into the real world are scanty.

    Go for it MFMP!

    • Axil Axil

      Rossi will definitely stay out of China to protest his IP. The Europeans are decommissioning their nuclear plants and this will open up a vast market to replace that power shortfall. Expect to see large gigawatt installations throughout Europe spring up.

      Ten US nuclear reactors will be shut down in the near future so the US power market will be very hot for Rossi.

      See for the US

      http://www.beyondnuclear.org/reactors-are-closing/

      See for Europe

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_phase-out

      • akupaku

        Is Rossi ever going to be able to replace that enormous power base? And even if he can it will take years if not decades.

        I can’t see Rossi or LENR as an alternative to replace all those nuclear power plants. They will go after more conventional systems for replacement.

        Rossi will not have the capacity and other LENR systems are not yet ready for wide scale deployment.

        • Axil Axil

          Rossi can keep control of his IP if he partners with a big company that can manufacture the 1MW units. Rossi can supply the Quark reactors and the control systems. Most of the 1MW reactor fabrication is just plumbing.

          • akupaku

            I thought the core of this news is that Rossi is exactly not going to do that. Not for a while (years?) anyway.

            He is going to keep all plants under Leonardo surveillance which will limit the number of plants only to a maximum of a few.

          • Axil Axil

            Rossi can keep control of his IP if his operators use Rossi’s proprietary control system. Rossi might manufacturer 10 KW sealed subunits comprised of Quarks.

          • akupaku

            No matter how he seals his units somebody will sooner or later reverse engineer one. And don’t think if the stakes are high enough that some big operators can’t get hold of one of them. They will just steal one or somebody else steals a unit and sells it or a unit just mysteriously disappears during transport.

            Many years ago I used to work for a few months in the former Soviet Union in a IT consultancy assignment. They had Digital PDP-11 and VAX computers that had been smuggled from West Germany inclusive all original source code for the operating systems and other useful software. And they had Soviet built PDP-11s that were reverse engineered clones of the originals.

            It is naive to think that this kind of things don’t happen in the modern world. Money talks and bullshit walks!

          • Axil Axil

            Rossi has posted that it will take just a few months for the competition to reverse engineer his system. What is difficult to crack is the fuel preparation process.

            After 50 years, no one has been able to crack Jo Papp’s fuel formula and it is about the same as what Rossi has now.

            Holmlid produces ultra dense hydrogen and nobody can replicate his experiments. Holmlid has been open for 43 years.

          • akupaku

            You are still under the illusion that it is all about science and engineering. In the real world things often work differently, i.e. one thing that Rossi cannot eliminate with any science or engineering is the “human factor”. This includes among other things such as stealing, spying, hacking, bribing, extortion, electronic surveillance, etc.

            I am not an expert on the subject so there are probably countless other ways of acquiring information than those. If there is a will there is a way.

          • Omega Z

            China and India, Have been trying to build high performance state of the art military grade jet engines for 30 years and haven’t succeeded yet. That’s with the luxury of having access to both U.S. and Russian engines to reverse engineer. Things are seldom as easy as many may think.

            Anyway, Where Rossi is starting is a short term situation. Once mass production begins, he knows they will try to crack his secret by reverse engineering. He’s just attempting to maintain his advantage as long as possible. It’s about grabbing market share. Not monopoly. In fact, I doubt Governments would allow a monopoly for very long.

          • Goodrice

            Holmlid produces ultra dense hydrogen and nobody can replicate his experiments. Holmlid has been open for 43 years.

            Please explain. I haven’t seen any serious attempt in replicating those experiments. What are you referring about?

          • Axil Axil

            [Vo]:Colloquium at SRI

            A post by Jones Been on Vortex 10/22/15

            The only thing needed now is replication.

            A professor whose name I did not catch (San Jose State ?) has been trying to replicate LH but has not been successful. Holmlid recently told him that the dense hydrogen takes several weeks to accumulate, and has an extended shelf life thereafter. That seems to me to be the main takeaway lesson ** weeks to accumulate **.

            As I recall, a few years back, there was a message where Rossi mentioned that his supplier in Italy required months to make a batch of active reactant. Could it be that Rossi has been inadvertently getting dense hydrogen all along?

          • Goodrice

            Sveinn Olafsson (who participated to the same colloquium Jones Beene wrote about in the post you’re referring) clarified on LENR-forum (2015-12-18):

            This replication performed few years ago failed since there was only one day of experiment available and it was a company that was trying to perform it not a professor.

          • NCY

            That assumes that Rossi’s patents can hold up, or that people will care to honour them (i.e. Chinese get a hold of one of them and they will copy). Rossi obviously doesn’t think so, or he would have revealed his secret sauce years ago and relied on patents to protect his invention.

        • Omega Z

          I agree with your statement that it will take decades to transition. It is merely economic realities. Only a percentage (maybe 2,5%)of world GDP can be directed to anyone development such as this. It is a gargantuan task.

          As to shutting down power plants. It takes time to build out a replacement energy system. This is also a gargantuan task. The actually shutting down of Nuclear plants takes little time.

          As to your other post, What Rossi aims to do is a beta system. A shake down cruise under his full control. This obviously isn’t his actual business plan. How many people could he actually keep on various sites 24/7. That would require 4 full time employees for each plant. Once completed, He will likely license for use in products like Intel did with their chips.

          Anyway, If the beta system requires 6 or 12 months of shake down doesn’t matter. Whats really important is that he actually does this. That the technology actually leaves the lab and into the public domain. Everything else will naturally follow.

      • Alain Samoun

        From 1MW to 1GW That’s is a big upscale – I doubt that Rossi could be ready for it.

        • Axil Axil

          According to Rossi, the new 1MW power unit can be configured in under a cubic meter. A GW reactor could then fit into a 1000 cubic meters. I would use molten salt as the heat transfer fluid.

          • georgehants

            Axil Axil, may I ask you, if you personally had had access to Rossi’s Research seven years ago, do you think you could have given any practicle help to it’s advancement?

          • Axil Axil

            I supported Defkalion. I had access to some of their research and helped them as much as I could.

          • georgehants

            Axil Axil, does that mean you think that you could possibly have helped speed-up the development?

          • Axil Axil

            Any work or contribution that I made was undercut by the jealousy and backbiting that goes on among the LENR developers and their supporters. Their goal was to kill off Defkalion as a competitor and steal their technology if they could.

          • georgehants

            Axil Axil, sorry, I meant if Rossi’s discovery seven years ago had been made, open-source and say MFMP had worked to advance it, with no competition or backbiting etc. do you think you could have made a positive contribution to help them?

          • Axil Axil

            My first post on Vortex in 2011 was a LENR cookbook that got Defkalion going

          • NCY

            you aren’t answering the question. But the answer is a resounding ‘yes’. Of course. Rossi’s actions are delaying LENR, there is no way around it.

          • Omega Z

            Actually it is the thieves in the world delaying things. If not for them, Rossi wouldn’t need to be so cautious or paranoid.

        • Alain Samoun

          I should add that the fission nuke plants produce Electric MW so Rossi would have to produce 3GW of heat to replace 1GW nuke…

  • Alain Samoun

    My business plan for Rossi:
    Photo-Voltaic and wind are the current clean energies. To apply them to housing is now the trend. A big part of this electric energy is used for heating/cooling space and it is not too smart to using electricity to produce heat. If Rossi can offer a small LENR reactor just to produce the heat and then replace 1/3 to 1/2 of these type of energy and reduce in the same time their cost,it will open a very big market for him.

  • Ophelia Rump

    This is a decent opening strategy. Dottore Rossi should be able to quickly establish massive financial momentum compounding his returns into production capability. This will give him an opportunity to establish supply and distribution before a competitor can get their hands on his product.

    • NCY

      HAHAHAHA… wrong. The more plants he decides to build and operate himself the more people he will have to hire to do it for/with him. All of these people will be offered millions to defect to other companies and bring Rossi’s secrets with them. He can’t protect his secrets forever, and if he tries, it will delay the onset of LENR for YEARS.

      He has a golden goose and people are more interested in owning a goose than in buying eggs from him. The more geese he tries to raise the easier it becomes for someone to steal one of them and then breed a flock of their own.

      • If you own an electricity plant that derives its electricity by way of a golden goose egg and someone steals that golden egg and starts their own goose-egg-based electricity plant, it is easy to shut them down for IP theft. The advantage would be Rossi’s until parallel LENR goose-eggs are developed.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_5CuQ-AIqA

    • Stephen

      That’s a disturbing but possibly very real point… I wonder about the consequences… I have no idea.

      • Hi Stephen
        I do not understand what is disturbing?

        • Stephen

          I just had this disturbing thought that maybe one day we think we have discovered a new galactic civilization only to discover it’s one huge free energy LENR driven galactic sized AI driven bit coin mining computer.

          • I agree with you, thanks for expanding our imagination. As for discovering new technology early, everyone here stands a good chance to benefit more than others if CF takes off just as everyone benefited immensely who invested a few hundred bucks when BitCoins was a new thing.

            I am pondering much how these block chain technologies could be coupled with alternative energy development. With the latest technology its actually easy as 1 – 2 – 3 to create applications from crypto-technology coupling it with goods and services. If we had technology to back the exchange of data and growth, just as gold is (supposedly) what is backing up fiat currency.

            This is why the leaders of cold fusion (if they are for real) should “give away” their technology. They would achieve singularity like change of inflationary proportions. I used to think that technology could be an engine for change for almost everything EXCEPT things such as greed, corruption and ignorance but now we are starting to see that Cold Fusion coupled with other technology can achieve further means than that.

            One example of the power of cold fusion I have raised before is that – anyone with a working “free energy” device could become the president of his country by election offering every citizen who vote for him / her a free “free energy” device, but now we are starting to understand the power of these technology goes beyond even that.

            I admit the opportunities are mind-boggling to such extent that every attempt of mine to predict and calculate its capability of changing our world is outright naive and feeble. We have a linear mindset, just starting to understand and comprehend the concept of exponential – what is beyond exponential is what we refer to as singularity – inflationary growth on a scale where the only reference point we have is the (proposed) expansion of the universe after big bang.

            I know there are some people in this online communities who have been following the crypto-technology advancement, its obviously off topic so it has not been discussed much but I would love to hear others ideas on how it can be combined.

            As for funding commercialisation many times crowd-funding donations has been mentioned, many voiced they wanted to invest in stocks if such was offered. Heck, I even know that people invested in the Woodford portfolio based on their (very small) investments into LENR. But the really explosive alternative taking into use the latest ideas, development, and technology – that’s probably crowd-funding coupled with either a crypto-currency or crypto-token.

            Would it not be amazing if we all came together and worked as a team? Function like a real community where people are busy working together rather than spending their time defending themselves and attacking others.

            The problem with Andreas Rossi’s ideas is that they are not win win ideas, at least not as he has presented them. In regards to Rossi’s IH scheme it was a lose – lose scenario. We dont know much about his new scheme but so far I have not seen any willingness to share much more than slightly discounted energy for some.

          • Stephen

            Hi Doctor Bob, actually the points you raise are really important I think and beyond what I’ve previously considered. They certainly deserve a better more considered reply than my first ones. To be honest I’m completely new to crypto currencies and relatively ignorant on their uses and the implications of theses new concepts on society.

            I had previously been thinking about E-Cat being an enabling technology for other technologies but mostly physical technologies I had not considered its potential effect on data and what that could mean.

            Regarding crypticurrencies. On one side I like the idea of a people’s currency for normal life with out it being exploited by middle men for their personal enrichment. And I think as a currency for trade this technology enables this to some extent.

            On the other hand I worry about its use by speculators to enrich them selves at the expense of ordinary people who are using it for normal small purchases and trades. Perhaps I’m wrong here and it is well protected against such use and I need to understand it better.

            One thing occurs to me is that in its current form its real value is not really open to heavy exploitation due to increasing minining having increasing costs due to energy so it’s difficult for a large group to use this to manipulate its value and its current value depends largely on actual use, value in terms of energy and speculation based on confidence.

            Would this change though if the energy costs essentially became free? If so would large organisations that can afford to buy large amounts of processing hardware be able to more easily manipulate the value of the currency by mining large amounts of bit coins on a particular schedule that works to their advantage at the expense of ordinary people? If so I find this concept concerning. Hopefully someone who understands better than me can clarify if this is an issue or not.

            Then there is also the moral questions if it right to using what we for see about the impact of LENR on the energy costs and the potential for use the currency to benefit of the field it self… There is a lot to consider here.

            More important is what you point out more generally. Data in general costs money partly for the hardware but also for the energy costs. We are largely living in a data driven society so I what would be the impact with essentially free energy. What would be the impact on data volume, storage and distribution in general. But more importantly with out associated large energy costs would it become dominated and controlled by those people or organizations that can own the biggest machines?

    • Willi Dilli

      Rossi need to start large ICO to build new power plant somewhere he wants. That is would be very nice idea.

    • “But what if you have the cheapest electricity in the world?”
      ***That reminds me of the time I was working for National Semiconductor and they were struggling so much that they considered selling their wafer fab plant in Portland, Maine. They got 2 embarrassingly low offers. It would have represented a $1.2Billion loss.

      So the CFO took those 2 legitimate offers and said that obviously the plant was overvalued and took more than a $billion writedown on the depreciation on the plant, making it “the cheapest fab in the world”.

      That was such a brilliant maneuver that it strikes me as a basis for strategy. You buy fabs for standard value, take in offers to sell them and depreciate the difference, ending up with a series of fabs that are the cheapest in the world. By the time your competitors catch on, you’d be in a hugely competitive advantage position.

      That strategy could be applied to Rossi buying electricity plants. He could a coal plant, convert it to LENR, stop buying coal and quietly announce that he’s accepting bids on the coal plant with the obvious prospect of bottom dollar offers that would change his depreciation curve to “owning the cheapest electricity on the planet”.

      One could do this with a few dozen plants before competitors notice that you haven’t gone out of business yet, your coal suppliers don’t understand why you’re not buying coal, the disruption of the electricity market starts to take effect and there would be a mad rush to develop the parallel to Rossi’s LENR electricity plant.

      Coal prices would collaspse, which probably represents an investment all its own.

  • Chapman

    I know that most folks were hoping for QX powered personal-mobility-units to be available by Christmas, but one must take a step back and realize his stated market approach is the best possible solution, both for himself, as the inventor and CEO, and for society.

    The critical part of it will be for him to find industrial partners with a LARGE demand, that he can slowly scale up to. This will give him the ability to put into use the largest number of units, while maintaining the highest degree of control. This satisfies the acknowledged safety concerns, allows the roll out to reach a critical mass that goes beyond that which could be denied, refuted, debunked, or flat out hidden, and allows him to establish a working relationship with high dollar customers.

    Like it or not, Rossi MUST keep profits front and center in his market strategy. As long as he is pursuing maximum profit (short of just selling the rights to an oil giant to be suppressed and forgotten) then the natural consequence will be maximum utility and market penetration.

    I hope Rossi NEVER abandons greed!
    As wise men have said, “Greed is GOOD!”.
    Greed makes the REAL world work.
    Greed is THE Great Motivator.
    Greed gets mankind off the couch, and drives them to productivity.
    Greed creates a better world.

    I hope Rossi dreams of putting one QX in every home, one in every vehicle, and 100 in every business – and getting $5 for every unit.
    I hope he dreams of being richer than Trump.
    Richer than Gates.
    Richer than Bezos.
    Why?
    Because for him to REACH that goal will mean there IS a QX in every home, one in every vehicle, and 100 in every business!

    • Anon2012_2014

      We still have no information. I think that is bad for society. There is no science from Rossi — no testable hypothesis. Might as well be magic. Can’t tell if it works. It has been 7 years.

      • Chapman

        And WHY, pray tell, would you be expecting “science” from Rossi??? The man is a mechanic, not a physicist!

        Rossi will give you a DEVICE… Because THAT is what you GET from mechanics and engineers. If you want SCIENCE then you should be demanding attention from MIT or NASA.

        Would you expect insightful answers if you asked your Plumber how Black Holes work? Your dissatisfaction is the predictable result of having irrational expectations. It has been obvious to all, for quite a while now, that Rossi has no real insight into the underlying physics. His recent co-authored paper demonstrates THAT quite clearly. But he is persistent, and brute force and repetition can achieve the exact same result as insight and understanding, with just a little more sweat and cursing…

        This is WAR! I want a BOMB, not a chemistry lesson. I want to see a product on the market, and to undermine the fossil fuel establishment, and see the academic priesthood get a good black eye and public shaming. We can work out the actual science once the smoke clears. 🙂

        • Jas

          Its Norman Cook that could release that science or part of it at least.

    • georgehants

      Just some Facts for Chapman to answer regarding his speech promoting GREED as the best system, but what do these people matter, I’m alright.
      ———-
      WaterAID Global
      2.3 billion people in the world – one in three – do not have a decent toilet.

      (WHO/UNICEF Joint Monitoring Programme (JMP) Report 2017 update)844 million people in the world – one in ten – do not have clean water.

      (WHO/UNICEF Joint Monitoring Programme (JMP) Report 2017 update)Around
      289,000 children under five die every year from diarrhoeal diseases
      caused by poor water and sanitation. That’s almost 800 children per day,
      or one child every two minutes.
      http://www.wateraid.org/what-we-do/the-crisis/statistics

      • Chapman

        Yeah… they should fix that, and stop crapping in their drinking water.

        It is not rocket surgery… (my new favorite quote from Isaac Arthur)

        Look, it is not that I am heartless… I just do not care. It is a Darwin thing. 99% of the planet knows better, and acts accordingly to improve their lives, yet we are supposed to feel responsible for the 1% that continues to self destruct? No. It is not just a matter of saying that we CAN’T, but recognizing that we SHOULDN’T.

        Evolution is not a historical event! It is an ongoing process. What you see – that is, the disparity in living standards – is Evolution in Action, and any attempt to THWART it’s operation is basically stalling the advance of homosapien as a species.

        Now, I recognize that this is not an issue that belongs on a LENR site, but YOU insist on bringing silly political issues here, and there seems to be NO interest in stopping you from disrupting things with your nonsense, so I will simply respond honestly to your point with the blunt reality.

        Life is hard. There are winners, and there are losers. But there are also those who sit back and do not attempt to run the race at all and instead sit by the course trying to look desperate and HOPING someone will carry them. Bad choice. And the sooner YOU get that through your head, the sooner you will get a decent nights sleep and stop whining so much.

  • kenko1

    In order for Rossi to maintain IP secrecy and control he needs the cooperation of his customers. He must select and concentrate on industries where energy is a high cost of production. Guarantee that the technology will not be available to their competitors, and thus a huge cost advantage. That price savings would allow that industry an virtual monopoly and a vested interest in keeping the IP secret. e.g. glass manufacturing.

  • georgehants

    Although Axil Axil says little on these pages regarding caring and sharing, he has put up a link on Vortex that he seems to find interesting and as usual I certainly do, this system is needed now and could have been in place for many years.
    ———-
    PhysOrg
    Fear of robots taking jobs spurs a bold idea: guaranteed pay
    As technological
    innovations increasingly edge into the workplace, many people fear that
    robots and machines are destined to take jobs that human beings have
    held for decades. For many affected workers, retraining might be out of
    reach —unavailable, unaffordable or inadequate.
    What then?
    Enter the idea of a universal basic income, the notion that everyone
    should be able to receive a stream of income to live on, regardless of
    their employment or economic status.
    Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-09-robots-jobs-spurs-bold-idea.html#jCp

  • John Littlemist

    Regarding Rossi’s presumed superiority and lead in LENR, I wonder how is me356 doing? Is he a done deal or still fixing bugs from his reactor? Frank, could you try to contact and interview him?

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, I will try.

  • Karl Venter

    Just a thought
    At the end of Rossi 1 year test which I am sure did not go as well as all had expected ( Including Rossi ) with a few discrepancies in this and that of his 1 MW plant – He miraculously came up with a plasma device – small and hard to measure the input vs output of a small system
    I quess – There will be a Demo of insignificant detail in October maybe november or january
    Most of us here want to believe but odds are stacking up against Rossi

  • nietsnie

    Frank, will Rossi be announcing the identity of the ‘customer’ this time, or will they remain anonymous while we get periodic updates indicating hard work and general, unverifyable, progress? Has Rossi indicated? If it is the latter, 2018 will be shot to us in terms of knowing whether anything is actually happening at all.

    Of course, Rossi owes us nothing – we became fans all on our own. And, if he indeed has anything, he needs to develop it at the rate and using the means he believes will be most successful for him. But, for us, I think Rossi has nearly used up his good will. Regardless how the trial turned out, it was at least obvious that he played fast and loose with the truth in some circumstances – with IH of course, but also with us as fans (and, again, he owes us nothing). At this point, just because Rossi tells us something is true on JNP – does not necessarily mean we should believe that it is. It’s time to take history into account.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Frank Acland September 5, 2017 at 10:12 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    What is your goal for E-Cat adoption in the marketplace: fast, slow,
    or somewhere in the middle? Whatever your answer, can you explain why?
    Many thanks,
    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi September 5, 2017 at 2:47 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Slow. The reason is: to resolve with calm all the unavoidable problems
    that will come up. The model is the strategy of George Washington during
    the Independence war: he has been enormously and repeatedly criticized
    for his continue delay of the important crucial battles, but he accepted
    the fight only when he was sure his heroic voluntary patriots were
    ready to fight against the professional forces of the United Kingdom.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Axil Axil

      This strategy of caution may be the reason why Rossi will sell heat rather than reactors, because this gives Rossi the ability to replace the reactors as he finds the bugs in their design. This was the microsoft strategy in the beginning of the DOS and windows system when Bill Gates gave the OS away for free so that the users could not complain about the large number of bugs in the OS. BILL fixed the bugs that the users turned up until the system was stable enough to charge money for it.

  • Axil Axil

    I am not tired. Over the years, Rossi has discovered in turn, one method of LENR after the other, improving the reaction from low temperature, COP, and power with little or no control to hotter and more controllable reactions with higher COP as the years rolled on. Now he believes that his latest discovery, the plasma mode reaction, is the LENR method that is ready for commercialization.

    We have to give Rossi credit for not releasing a LENR method prematurely that was flawed. If such care and wisdom were used in making design decisions in the nuclear reactor bisiness, then that energy production method would not be destined for the junk heap.

  • R101

    Fingers crossed he will be a bit more open with this unlike the last place, what was it called again? PM meth productions or something?

  • Omega Z

    Rossi hasn’t done any public demo since 2011 and even that was done at the behest of Focardi who wanted it to go public before he past away. Rossi didn’t want to but did it for his friend Focardi. There is a video on YouTube where Focardi stated this fact.

    All other info(Lugano, pixs and all) we have been made aware since 2011 came about from leaks by others. None of this was done publicly.

    Anyway, in your previous post “Why is he doing the public demo at all?” is a good question. And it appears that this is being done of his own free will. Apparently, I would guess that Rossi himself thinks his work is finally ready to debut. That’s a good sign…

    • MorganMck

      I hope you are right. If so, I would think we would see a series of other commercialization steps in short order. If they don’t come, that will tell a story as well.

      • Omega Z

        “I would think we would see a series of other commercialization steps in short order.”

        That is what I read from Rossi’s posts. This demo is just the beginning. However, I’ll keep my hopes in check. From experience, how many times have you said as soon as I finish fixing this, it’ll be done. Then it’s like, What the Hail. Either the fix didn’t fix an issue or created a new problem. Rossi is human just like us. Sometimes our optimism gets the best of us. Here hoping this time is different for Rossi.

  • Samec

    Five built missile boats was blocked because Khazarian Occupation Entity*** started war in 1967, not because Your imagined “pressure”.
    This robbery of military equipment is example, that security of first few heating plants against IP thetf is only limited imaginary thing.

    *** Note: If some Eskimos (Inuits) executed amphibious landing in London, murder 1/3 of local citezens, second third of local citizens expulsed, and rest imprison into Ghetto fenced with 6 metres tall wall, after that armed itself with nuclear weapons and demand from whole world call this London land “Atlantis”, will You write about this brutal joke entity as “Atlantis” or as “Eskimos occupation entity” ?

    Google: “Khazaria Map” and You understan all within one minute

  • May I present kindly
    Mr Joby Weeks
    https://youtu.be/3Q7NzgdEtvc?t=11m21s

  • Bit Coin Miners are ideal customers. They operate remotely very secretly and they consume immense amounts of electricity.

    * “No one uses more electricity than BitCoin Miners”
    * “We are looking for the cheapest source of electricity in the world”
    * “The next step is figuring out how to provide Free Energy to the world”

    Some quotes from Joby Weeks BitCoin entreprenour. I have dedicated a blog post to the topic.
    http://www.drboblog.com/joby-weeks-bitclub-free-energy/

    • Hi five

      Apparently he has never met an urban marijuana grower.

  • sam

    JPR
    September 6, 2017 at 11:42 AM
    Update?

    Andrea Rossi
    September 6, 2017 at 12:01 PM
    JPR:
    Also today we are wotking well, while also structuring to receive properly Ms Irma!
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Gerard McEk
    September 6, 2017 at 4:19 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    It is exciting to hear that you have already started to construct plants of a considerable capacity (> 1MW). Please allow me to ask some questions about it:
    1. You will deliver energy and I assume it will be heat energy. Is that right?
    2. If so will it be a. low level heat (100-200 C); b. medium level heat (200-600 C) or c. > 600 C?
    3. May these also plants be used as a demonstration facility for the E-cat QX if everything goes well?
    Thanks.
    Kind regards, Gerard

    Andrea Rossi
    September 6, 2017 at 7:57 AM
    Gerard McEk:
    1- yes
    2- low level
    3- premature
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Ronaldo

    Is low level heat useful for electricity production and what is the reason the electricity wont be sold?

    • Rene

      Because generating electricity from low level heat sources is inefficient, down around 10-15%. Also, that he plans to sell low level heat means his system still does not work effectively. If it works (and verified by truly independent personnel) that will be wonderful news, but it might not be a great business model. I suspect this is a way for Rossi to make some money to work out the flaws is his system. Deja vu.

  • Bob Greenyer
    • artefact

      Back to India! 🙂

  • morse

    No, Rossi’s E cats are helping him deflecting the storm.

  • LCD

    Powerplants are not a bad idea just don’t see how you are going to score big with that route, will take a long long time and allow others to pass you up.

    • Omega Z

      Not power plants as in electricity.
      Rossi is initially going to sell heat for heat applications like food processing or what ever. He will need to build a couple of these a a beta test product to work out any unknown issues.

  • sam

    Greg Leonard
    September 13, 2017 at 1:40 PM
    Dear AR,
    I think the company ABB is helping with your industrial production – producing thousands of e-Cats. It seems ABB can do more things than assembly. Once you have an orchestra of e-Cats, then perhaps they might be conducted by an ABB robot…
    http://new.abb.com/news/detail/2069/yumi-taking-the-stage
    regards,
    Greg Leonard

    Andrea Rossi
    September 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM
    Greg Leonard:
    We have plans ready to work with the robots of ABB.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • sam

    Frank Acland
    September 14, 2017 at 9:45 AM
    Dear Andrea,

    Can you make public yet the date of your E-Cat QX presentation?

    Thank you very much,

    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    September 14, 2017 at 2:45 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Not yet.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Frank Acland

      Andrea Rossi
      September 15, 2017 at 7:18 AM
      Steven N. Karels:
      Also: the end October event will be a demonstration.
      Warm Regards.