LION Control Test with Copper Wire by Alan Goldwater

Here are a couple of interesting posts here by Alan Goldwater of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project regarding a control test which he has recently done with copper wire heated on a fire brick.

Feb 18, 2018:

Here’s a simple precursor test under way. The fire brick is K-26, rated to 1450°C. A small concave area holds 1/2 sheet of Silver leaf, on which a 2-meter coiled length of AWG23 Copper magnet wire is placed. The oven will heat to 1000°C over 60 minutes, and hold for 120 minutes before shutting off. The goal is to see if the copper melting temp (1083°C) will be lowered by the presence of molten silver, and if so, whether it will soak into the porous fire brick. Depending on the result, a longer test may follow.

ag1

ag2

ag4

Feb 18, 2018:

Here’s the result, after about 180 minutes at ~1000°C. The copper wire is oxidized completely: though it retained its shape, it’s brittle and visibly crystallized in the cross-section. The silver is presumably in the black spots on the brick, as silver oxide. No trace of absorption into the brick is visible.

My conclusion is that the strange morphology seen in the LION aftermath is due to something far beyond the normal high-temperature behavior of these metals and refractories. This may be obvious in retrospect, but I like to test assumptions when it’s easy. Carry on!

ag3

Alan Goldwater

  • magicsnd1

    Further detail – the molten silver
    seems to have penetrated into the fire brick, with some chemistry
    possibly at work.

    I scraped away the black deposits, revealing pits in the brick
    about 4 mm deep. The texture of the black material appeared
    uniform and quite a bit softer and less porous than the brick
    itself.

    Because this is a quick process, I can do further testing with
    more silver if you think it worth pursuing. for example, I have
    some 5 um pure silver power on hand. I could also do some simple
    chemical testing of the black residue, though my selection of
    reagents is limited to basic chemicals like HCl, H2SO4 and NaOH. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/915394cfa1c5451f8527da34c15bb8aa90f76a0cf24d960396d3928e13817c43.jpg

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Thanks, Alan. I wonder if intruded silver (or copper) in LION’s experiment could have short-circuited the heater coils. That might have led to local overheating and/or electrolytic decomposition of the alumina substrate.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Andreas,

        Entirely possible for either the silver or the copper oxide to have shorted a few turns.

        However the PID controller would have backed off the coil energy input if temp increased.

        What would be interesting is there may have been electrical current, free electrons, flowing through the silver and copper oxide that was between the heater coil turns.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Yes, electric current is one of the best reducing agents. Difficult to predict how the PID controller would behave since there was only a single thermocouple. There might have been significant temperature differences between various zones, especially in consideration of the inhomogeneous structure and composition of the material.

          • Alan Smith

            You are overlooking that fact that during the very long period of self-sustaining heat produced by the lion reactor there was zero electrical input. Also, a short in the heater coils would have probably triggered the PSU to shut down.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Alan,

            Shorting out a few coils would not short out the entire coil.

            What would probably happen is coil resistance would drop a bit and current would increase a bit.

            The PID would still regulate coil current to hold temp somewhat constant.

            Main change would be parallel electron flow through the Ag and Cu oxide and the heater coil.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            There are two different questions: first, was there excess heat, secondly, how can the modifications of the material be explained. Those are only remotely related. Certainly, if there had been no electric input at all one could not invoke electrolytic reduction (which is just one possibility among others). But there was obviously current outside the SSM periods.

            Hopefully, we will soon get an analysis of the material that allows us to rule out one or another hypothesis.

          • Bruce__H

            If the data logging system was offline during LION 2, how do we know there was zero electrical input? Is it a case of all inputs being physically switched off/unplugged?

            The replication effort will be interesting.

          • Alan Smith

            At this moment we can only take LION’s word for the self-sustain period, but having met and discussed this with him face to face at length (as have several others who post here) and seen and photographed for myself the witness marks of ‘strange things’ I have no reason to doubt his account of events. As well as this one meeting LION and I have an email trail going back for well over a year.
            Hopefully proper replications will actually settle all these outstanding doubts and questions, but will probably just raise more. That is why we are planning to carry out many independent replications in different locations overseen by different researchers.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Was the copper wire possibly coated with a small amount of (hydrocarbon) enamel as many magnet and electric motor coppers wires are to insulate them in the windings? This seems like more than a small amount, but the black reminds me of carbon residue.

      • magicsnd1

        It is non-magnetic and non-conductive, so carbon is unlikely. I also found it would dissolve in Sodium Hypochlorite (strong bleach). So the black residue is almost certain to be Silver Oxide.

        • Anon2012_2014

          “black residue is almost certain to be Silver Oxide.” Makes sense.

          Read some paper online that says that silver oxide when heated above 400C reverses its oxidation due to some entropy process that is at odds with exothermic enthalpy. At 300C it will re-oxidize. This suggest to me that the silver de-oxidized releasing O2, melted, flowed into the alumina foam, and then solidified and finally re-oxidized into silver oxide.

    • US_Citizen71

      Do you have a shot of the hole before you put the silver in? Could the black residue just be silver oxide that collected in low points that already existed?

      • magicsnd1

        The recess was smooth before the test.You can see the shape (covered in very thin silver leaf) in the first image of this thread. It is curious that the silver would concentrate in just a few black spots, shown in result picture above. You can also see a few flakes of the silver foil that were probably trapped under the copper coil and thus didn’t oxidise.

        • US_Citizen71

          I do not mean to belabor the point or insult your intelligence but are sure it was completely smooth? I wonder if there were shallow pits like those seen elsewhere on the block. I can’t tell from your image of the silver what the underlying topography is. The silver would be molten before it was oxidized and from the image of the brick in the oven it appears to have been tilted which would explain the the black dots being concentrated to one side.

          • magicsnd1

            Of course not “completely smooth”, which is not a meaningful description anyway. The recess was formed by hand with a 1 cm round ball mill bit. I estimate the surface roughness to be ±0.5 mm or less. Regarding the possible tilt of the brick, that is irrelevant since the recess is hemispherical and not flat on the bottom.

          • US_Citizen71

            Depressions could cause small pools and molten silver can flow uphill due to surface tension. Which is something I have witnessed using it as solder in jewelry class decades ago. I am just trying to understand the why of where the black areas occured.

          • magicsnd1

            “Depressions could cause small pools and molten silver can flow uphill due to surface tension.”

            Yes, good insight there. I suspect that the silver did melt first and coalesce into small blobs from surface tension.Then at some point there was a phase change and the coalescing force disappeared.

            The tiny volume of molten silver compared to the much larger region holding the black deposit suggests that the brick absorbed the molten silver like a sponge before the oxidation fixed it in place.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Alan,

      Good work. 😉

      Maybe give the reactants more time, like 2 days or even a week to learn to play nicely together?

    • Engineer48

      Hi Alan,

      Nice.

      Interesting image. Looks a lot like the black alumina spots/pits Bob found in the Lion 2 alumina foam block.

  • Anon2012_2014

    Physical chemistry guys — could the molten silver some how reduce the aluminum oxide to silver oxide??

    • Bob Greenyer

      Nope

      Electronegativity

      Al 1.61
      Cr 1.66
      Fe 1.83
      Si 1.90
      Cu 1.90

      Ag 1.93

      Al strips oxygen from Fe oxides because it is more electronegative. Therefore

      Al2O3 will NOT strip oxygen from Quartz (SiO2), or donate oxygen to Kanthal (Fe + Cr + Al alloy with Al2O3 in passivated layer) or Ag.

      This Ag is less electronegative than Si so it will not strip oxygen from Quartz (SiO2) or Copper Oxides. Copper will strip oxygen from silver, so in a liquid state, Silver would act as a mild accelerant to the oxidation of Cu which may help to explain Alan Goldwater’s observation of rapid Cu oxidation.

      As Stephen notes, unlikely the Silver would have migrated around the quartz only to selectively choose a few wires to coat.

      • Stephen

        Interesting… nice to see the data facts behind the argument.

        It might still be interesting to prove experimentally though maybe that silver does not play a direct role in the quartz modification.

        I suspect if it can oxidize and deoxidize as Anon mentions below I wonder if there could be more if a mechanical affect as the metal gets into pores that then oxidizes and expands. Rather than a chemical one. This might explain Alan’s observations

        It might be interesting to check with quartz Incase something like this happens…

        Although I would think it is unlikely.

        • Bob Greenyer

          It may be acting as a flux, the Alumina foam is deliberately porous to act as an insulator.

          • Stephen

            Interestingly copper oxide black can eat fire brick apparently but at much higher temperatures according to this link:

            https://digitalfire.com/4sight/material/copper_oxide_black_237.html

            Incase you are wondering cone 6 corresponds to a bit above 1200 deg C

            http://www.porcelainpainters.com/conechrt.htm

            Incidentally most glazes and stained glass production uses temperatures this high and higher too.

            It almost apears as if something is making these characteristics happen at much lower temperatures than expected.

          • Bob Greenyer

            From the age of 12 to 19 I used to make ceramics and was fascinated in glazes – I have several pieces in my house.

            I plan to get a kiln and sculpt in my latter years…

            At 800ºC, what can happen, that is the key question here.

          • Stephen

            Yes I’m wondering if the process you are describing is having a similar affect on the quartz and other materials as the apparent melting metal and allowing these effects to occur at a lower temperature than we would normally expect.

            If so this could be an indicator of the process as well.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Aspects of this process respect no barriers – NONE – Why?

          • Anon2012_2014

            As long as a glazing reaction is not exceedingly exothermic … doesn’t matter. It gets hot and stays hot for days. Does crystallization of glaze from amorphous liquid state give off enough heat to stay hot for days. I don’t think so and leave it to someone else with material science to prove negative.

          • Stephen

            I’m not talking about the reaction as heat source here I’m wondering if the effect could cause the materials to behave as a flux or colorant in away that we would normally expect at a much higher temperature and if we are seeing evidence of that.

            If so it could be additional evidence for the effect.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            The 800C figure results from the output of a single thermocouple that was located somewhere inside the quartz tube. Local temperatures could have been considerably higher, especially near the heater wires.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Agreed, a point I have made to Alan Smith and that he is aware of and has done tests by moving TC into different positions in tube.

            We shall try to get a visual dataset when I take the Optris to UK and put some metrics to it.

        • Anon2012_2014

          The above analysis from Bob suggests that there is insufficient chemical exothermic reactions from the silver, copper, the oxides, the quartz and the alumina to explain any excess heat coming out of the experiment. By ruling out these hypotheses on LIONs active run, it confirms excess heat. We are waiting from Bob, Alan S. and Alan G. to do an excess heat replication with data so we can confirm the non-chemical excess hypothesis pointing towards a new form of energy production. Progress.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Anon,

            Excess heat from highly deuterated Pd cathode reactions is old news.

            Experimenters like McKubre became bored generating excess heat that way.

            As long as you have the recipe and follow it, excess heat will occur.

            Start reading the data gathered from 1,500 man years of experimental LENR data:

            http://www.lenr-canr.org

          • Anon2012_2014

            Eng, thank you for your suggestion. I’ve read the old experiments. But a cathode is a wet experiment with a lot of things going on and the excess heat being manifest by a temperature increase in a dewar style calorimeter. These have a lot of “moving parts” (i.e. components) that make them more work to analyze.

            Here we have a dry experiment running really hot so that the results will be obvious (i.e. incontrovertible) to anyone and not requiring large mental gymnastics to measure the amount, i.e. the active side of the experiment is really really hot. That is what makes this one different.

            Finally, if we are ultimately going to make a working reactor, I submit that to be really useful, it has to run really hot — much hotter than the boiling point of water. If we can make a demo of something that is making some really useful that could in turn be used to drive a steam or organic working fluid electric generator, that’s revolutionary.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Anon,

            There are ample dry Ni+H and Pd+D experiments showing significant excess heat.

            What is common in both the wet and dry reactors are the need for a very high loading ratio:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a06b4f5ca7c60ad6867b1ae9c1ac174a26df5a35bc04258392ee47c950c36aee.png

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a55df5a36aafc116272384fcbabbddc0916a66f6b70bc586a809c8f8f550573f.png

          • Anon2012_2014

            For those of you reading this thread, the above is from McKubre’s ICCF3 presentation in a wet cell (Fleischmann style) calorimeter. The science is good but the effect is only several watts, which was not enough to make a useful device (or to convincingly rule out accidental experimental error for the skeptics). To me that is why we need 60 or 100 watts of excess power that is “sensible”, i.e. hot to the touch, running for 10x the time needed to burn off any chemical reaction that could exists.

          • georgehants

            Anon, Wonderful to read your sensible open-minded approach, as everything is Quantum at base we must be ready to move on from restricting stone-age chemistry into the higher and more comprehensive realm of reality.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        The effect of electronegativity depends on various factors. For aqueous solutions these numbers will mostly work, but if there are different conditions for the participating atoms (for example, if a molten metal meets a solid compound) predictions are not that easy. Note also that there are different scales. Yours is the Pauling scale. In the Rochow scale, silver has a slightly lower value (1.42) than aluminium (1.47).

        • Bob Greenyer

          Ok – that is VERY useful to know.

      • magicsnd1

        I did one more test while waiting for parts to arrive. I put a small amount of the black residue powder on a clean aluminum plate and added a few drops of salt water. As the water dried, it left nice crystals of salt, some coated with shiny silver. Electro-negativity works! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cd3dc5ad8abfea93a7b0fb79524e8d98483e89949ffcc0d556465d2165f089bf.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0d73c78d74ef571033d4c6f5a6058b7ca5fcf94534e7e9da1fc080bea511da2a.jpg

  • Stephen

    One thing that is curious is that in LION the silver was inside the quatrtz tube at the back of the reactor.

    Could silver have migrated around the back of the reactor around the quartz tube and back to the alumina specificaly to the area where we see the alumina affected? With out affecting the alumina more near the back of the reactor?

    seems difficult that way.

    The quartz tube is clear at the back not much evidence of silver oxide there too.

    If silver went through the quartz through a crack something must have cracked the quartz first. So silver short circuiting the heater wire and increased local heating would not explain that

    Alan would it be possible to do a similar test with quartz instead of alumina.?

  • Stephen

    In case there are any chemical type signatures there whether generated nominally or under some kind of stimulation looking at ceramic glazed could be interesting.

    These use similar materials, silicon oxide, aluminium oxide and a flux that is also usually some kind of oxide.

    It should be born in mind that these glazes are applied in powder form or in a slurry that is later dried before firing not as large quartz and alumina objects. But there could be something to learn from this.

    Quartz can have a strong affinity to the oxides used in the fluxes.

    As well as colour the flux is used to lower the melting temperature of the quartz alumina like mix. Which otherwise would only melt at much higher temperatures.

    But it is applied in a mixture in a powder form not the much large objects that we see in LION. I’m not sure if diffusion in these larger objects could demonstrate simiar affects.

    The fluxes usek are also particular oxides that I do not think are present in LION at least initially.

    But we should consider and eliminate the process and also see if similar process can be stimulated in other ways by the proposed LENR stimulates process to explain the signature effects somehow in the LION reactor.

    The following links are a good start I think to look at this:

    http://www.bigceramicstore.com/info/ceramics/tips/tip35_understand_glazes.html

    https://digitalfire.com/4sight/oxide/sio2.html

    I think the DigitalFire resource in particular could prove to be a very useful data resource more generally too.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Ralkar, Adameko and Hutchison (said just yesterday) had samples that tested with gold.

      • Stephen

        Yes if chemical then the colours are not random but associated with certain chemicals usually oxides in these artisan applications.

        From what I can see Silver Oxide is sometimes used in yellow glass but not commonly. It is used as an opacity agent in white glazes to make them more opaque.

  • magicsnd1

    I considered this, and now consider it less likely than I initially thought.The attached phase diagram show that the minute quantity of silver used here would have negligible effect on the melting point of the copper.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f07b9a824279c31d8587ea12688bedc9a06dfaeffc9262098ddcccd300484f44.jpg

  • Anon2012_2014

    Hit Google first under the exact title on the graph is my suggestion. Mike was one of the conference co-chairs at ICCF back in 1992 and I believe the slide showing “6” of excess power is from is from his summary talk. His ICCF3 paper on loading does not have that graph per say, but his 2003 talk at ICCF shows that as “run C1” which is “large area”, and I assume “JM” is the palladium manufacturer.

    The detailed paper is
    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHexcesspowe.pdf

    He refers to Kunimatsu which is this paper:
    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KunimatsuKdeuteriuml.pdf

    And his first use of the slide is from the Short Course at ICCF10 where he refers to it in the table. He refers to run C1 thoughout that paper.
    https://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2003/2003McKubreM-ReviewOfExperimentalMeasurments.pdf

  • Alan Smith

    Personal to who? As for making mistakes I always strive to avoid doing so. I am not asking you or anybody else to accept anything as a proven fact, experiments performed carefully with good data and proper controls are the best way to prove – or disprove – anything.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Sorry – I meant it wants electrons more than Fe does – of course I know it is thermite, that is why I set that as the start argument.

    Someone else noted Silver has some odd things going on.

    For sure more test are needed and the Alans are on the case.

    Hutchison did his experiments in Air (though ensured non conductive base) and he got same transmutations as observed in LENR and I will have our own data to confirm that tomorrow (I saw it, it is the same).

    NOVA or LION can show the effect with already shared protocols and basic equipment design with LION being more elegant and cost effective. ECCO is a practical design for the use of LION fuel – to be specific – the fuel can be a range of things as I will explain and make open in ‘O Day’ – you need the active structure nucleated, and the Deuterated Nickel / Diamond is perfect for a range of reasons. More over – it cannot be patented!

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