Anti-Reverse Engineering System ‘Has Revolutionized’ Rossi’s Commercial Strategy

I think that Andrea Rossi’s announcement that he has what he considers to be a system to make reverse engineering ‘practically impossible’ (he qualified it a bit from ‘impossible’) is highly significant. Rossi stated today that this breakthrough “has revolutionized our commercial strategy.”

The way I see it is if Rossi’s fear of having his technology copied is diminished, then he is going to be less protective and restrictive in the distribution of E-Cats, and reduce the need for putting security systems in place that would consume time and expense.

I asked a few more questions about the issue today:

Frank Acland
March 6, 2018 at 7:44 AM
Dear Andrea,

1. Will the new anti-reverse engineering system change your estimated production timeline?
2. Will it make E-Cats more expensive?
3. Will it make E-Cats more dangerous?
4. Will it make E-Cat dissemination faster?
5. Will it mean that plant owners will be able to change their own e-cats (like we replace printer cartridges for example)?

Andrea Rossi
March 6, 2018 at 8:16 AM
Frank Acland:
1- No
2- No
3- No
4- Probably yes
5- Yes
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Regarding my question 5 above, just a few weeks ago Rossi stated that the refueling of E-Cats would have to be done by authorized technicians. So now it sounds like people could order their replacement E-Cat modules like they would order batteries, fuel canisters, light bulbs, etc., and install them themselves which would simplify things greatly and certainly be less expensive in terms of labor costs. If the E-Cat really did become used widely Rossi would have had to build a huge network of certified technicians, the costs of which would have ultimately been borne by the customer, and passed on to the end user of energy.

If the E-Cat hits the market, I don’t doubt that people will try very hard to figure out exactly how it works. Rossi may ultimately be wrong in his estimation that reverse engineering will be impossible, but it sounds like he is comfortable enough with the system they have developed to take a risk on it.

  • Brokeeper

    Perhaps it is a distribution agreement strategy more than an engineering change?

    Andrea Rossi
    March 6, 2018 at 6:30 AM
    Rudolf:
    It has revolutionized our commercial strategy.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Could there be a ‘Dead Man’s’ switch signal to alert a failure or tampering to enforce the agreement?

    • US_Citizen71

      I’m thinking it is something like the Psychlo method for hiding the teleportation technology in Battlefield Earth, lots of junk that doesn’t do anything but throw off the person trying to reverse engineer the item.

      • LarryJ

        I think Thomas Baccei above is closer with his idea that the secret is in the fuel preparation and not it’s composition. If you can destroy whatever the fuel preparation imparts to the fuel then the secret is lost. Protecting the electronics might be accomplished with some sort of hardening liquid polymer as was done with that over unity phone charger unit that was tested here a while back.

        Loved the book, too bad the movie was such a botch.

        • US_Citizen71

          The book was great, much better storyline. I’m sure the electronics will get potted and I do not doubt that preparation of the materials is also very important.

      • sam
  • Buck

    Arguably, this change in the product has reduced the cost of the Ecat QX. Rossi in this exchange suggests a rapid payback for the customer. If on uses the 10 years for residential installation of PV, or in business where a payback period of less than 5 years is strongly preferred, then his response suggests a payback period of near if not less than 12 months, maybe 6 months.

    If this proves true in practice, then another economic barrier to adoption will be removed, promoting a more rapid adoption.
    ================================

    Milford
    March 5, 2018 at 10:37 PM

    Mr Rossi,

    Can you anticipate how much time will be necessary to your customers to pay back their investment to get an Ecat?

    Thank you if you can answer,

    M.
    _________________________________

    Andrea Rossi
    March 6, 2018 at 6:31 AM

    Milford:

    Probably shorter than expected. Very, very, very short.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • Gerard McEk

      According to my wife ‘Very, very, very short’ is extremely short 😉

      • Buck

        Yes . . . mix an Ecat with “very, very, very short” and you get yourself into a lot of hot water.

  • Thomas Baccei

    If ANYTHING Rossi generated is real, my guess would be that the key to the technology is the preparation of fuel. Once “prepared” they have nothing to tell anyone. Picture a Nickel / Lithium alloy which has been treated in some significant and vital way, but still remains the same Nickel / Lithium alloy. No “nano” structures to observe, No dutrium to extract and quantify. Just a hunk of metal. The secret “sauce” is in the treatment done to it in the “black” area of the manufacturing plant, and that leaves (in Rossi’s opinion) no measurable effect.

    • Bob Matulis

      Sort of like Coke syrup

  • greggoble

    Off topic a bit, I wonder how long before a home E-Cat unit becomes available? Are there any estimations made? I am on the waiting list for one. Is the waiting list still active? https://ecat.com/ecat-products/ecat-home

    I also wonder, which will come first, LENR NRNF (non radioactive nuclear flight) or a certified home E-Cat unit? Consider NASA is ramping up for LENR flight. I imagine SPAWAR is as well.

    • Frank Acland

      According to AR, not until they are certified for safety, a process that could take years apparently.

      • Stephen Taylor

        Hi Frank, comments appear to be closed on the “What is O” post.

        • Frank Acland

          Thanks for letting me know Stephen. I did not close them, I will see if I can open them up again. Possibly a Disqus limit has been reached. If not I will make a new thread to continue the discussion.

    • Rene

      My wild guess is 2023 at the earliest IF the technology really works.

      • greggoble

        I speculate that Naval research and applied engineering labs have a LENR powered aircraft and are putting it through it’s trial flights.

        I’m curious about the following developments at UT Austin. This seat of learning is well schooled on LENR matters and in the pocket of the DoD.

        UT Austin and Lawrence Forsley – DoD LENR
        The University of Texas at Austin
        utexas.academia.edu/LawrenceForsley

        UT Austin and the DoD

        DOD Awards $1.1 Billion Contract to UT Austin’s Applied Research Laboratories Sept. 28, 2017 https://news.utexas.edu/2017/09/28/dod-awards-11-billion-to-applied-research-laboratories

        I think LENR will definitely bring changes to established nuclear programs like those found at Los Alamos. (Note that UT Austin Applied Research has “demonstrated business acumen and experience in change management”).

        Statement regarding The University of Texas System bid on the Management and Operations Contract for Los Alamos National Laboratory – THURSDAY, DECEMBER 14, 2017 – https://www.utsystem.edu/news/2017/12/14/statement-regarding-university-texas-system-bid-management-and-operations-contract

    • kenko1

      You should be able to find hand warmers in 2025! I guess one cluld use them in a home.

      • greggoble

        Funny you should mention it, I have two in my pockets right now. Nice…

        • kenko1

          e-cat hand warmers?

  • sam
  • sam

    Cold Fusion Now : New Podcast with Alan Smith interview by Ruby carat

    http://coldfusionnow.org/cfnpodcast/

  • greggoble

    Impossible Invention/Mission Impossible
    This tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y9NtHlJvbY

  • Alan DeAngelis
    • peacelovewoodstock

      Regardless of relevance to the Rossi pageant, “Danger UXB” was an excellent show, highly recommended.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yeah, this scene wasn’t very relevant. I was trying to find the scene with the booby-trapped fuses (an anti-reverse engineering device) and gave up. Still would not have been very relevant.

  • Axil Axil

    The LENR is based on magnetism: a special type of magnetism. In Rossi’s theory, he states that the magnetism is quadruple magnetism.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/VFPt_quadrupole_coils_1.svg/220px-VFPt_quadrupole_coils_1.svg.png

    But Rossi has confused his magnetic confinement strategy for the cause of the LENR reaction. It may be Rossi needs magnetic confinement to confine and concentrate his reactants so that he can get his reaction to a productive level, yet this confinement method has nothing to do with the production of the LENR reaction.

    What produces the LENR reaction is chiral polarized magnetism. The SmCo7 magnet has long been know to produce the LENR reaction and that type of magnet produces Chiral magnetism.

    Does Rossi know that quadrupole magnetism is a dead end path and is leading the competition down a dead end road, or is his knowledge about LENR theory fraud unbeknownst to Rossi ?

    • LION

      Hi Axil,
      sellers list SmCo magnets, are all SmCo magnets SmCo7 magnets? If not what is the difference, and would you kindly provide a link to a reliable seller of the correct SmCo7 magnets you mean. THANKS.

      • Axil Axil

        I will get to your question soon, but first a story from Russ George…

        I had the privilege of standing in the parking lot of the hotel where Chukanov had his demo running for several hours in the company of Martin Fleischmann fusing some of our little grey cells over that device. Chukanov answered or at least responded to every single question we posed to him and we sent many his way. It was a fascinating and captivating demo. Martin was the kind of man who had insatiable curiosity and not a mean molecule in his body and showed it in his sincere interest and professorial manner. Chukanov sent us both away with several large chunks of his metal.

        Meanwhile the hundreds of ICCF conference attendees almost entirely shunned the ‘parking lot demo’ and Chukanov, especially the self-appointed high priest
        insiders of cold fusion. There was little but derision and snide attacks behind Chukanov’s back at the meeting.

        After a couple hours in hot afternoon sun with Chukanov and his machine Martin and I adjorned to the beach and floated for a long time like basking whales chatting about this and that.

        Somewhere in my collection of ‘cold fusion’ holy treasures I have some of Chukanov’s SmCo5 metal. I think I will dig it out and see if some of the recent ‘activation’ ideas make it work even better!

        also see

        https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/thread/2860-the-dennis-cravens-golden-ball-reaction/?postID=15001#post15001

        I have seen three types 5,7 and 17.

        I have seen SmCo magnets for sale on Amazon and google shopping.

        • LION

          Hi Axil,
          Thanks for the information, I will buy some and try them out and report back.

          • Axil Axil

            ebay sells rare earth magnets also.

      • Axil Axil

        From: Jones Beene

        … but wait, there’s more…

        In another experiment you may not have heard of – from Bockris and Sundaresan in 1994 – it was shown that magnetic stimulation boosted excess heat substantially in a Pd-D electrolysis cell. This line of work leads up to the Letts-Cravens effect – wrt understanding the influence of a magnetic field on LENR.

        “After the cathode had been charged with deuterium for 48 hours at a current of 80 mA, the cell was placed in the field of a permanent magnet of 200 Gauss strength. The cell electrolyte temperature rose to 5°C above ambient after 230 seconds. After 576 seconds, the magnet was replaced by two Neodymium magnets with a 800 Gauss field. The temperature immediately started increasing and reached 13.5 °C above ambient in about 15 minutes and remained constant. The temperature returned when the magnet was removed… [end of Bockris quote]

        The $64 question – why isn’t a magnetic field fully employed in the glow-stick experiments? By “fully employed” it is meant that: yes, the heater wire does provide a minimal field but increasing the field strength by an order of magnitude could be beneficial.

        … relevant comment: those who do not remember the past cannot benefit from its insight- paraphrase of famous Santayana quote, which is the logic behind the LENR-CANR library.

        From axil.

        I am not certain about the LENR chiral effects of Neodymium magnets, but I have seen them produce a vortex in water bubbles indicating chirlity.

        I have moved from monopole causation to anisotopic magnetism to chiral magnetism. So there has been movement of my thinking on this subject.

        Note that magnetism produced by electrical flow is not chiral since the electrons in the current are chiral mixed.

        see

        https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/thread/3736-the-possible-role-of-axions-in-lenr/?postID=38813#post38813

      • Axil Axil

        A proposal for an experiment involving chiral polarized electrical current.

        An electric current is chiral neutral. The magnetic fields produced by that current will also be chiral neutral. It might be possible to produce a chiral electric current in order to produce a chiral polarized magnetic field.

        Using a SmCo magnet(s) to produce a chiral electric current may be possible. If a generator can be build using a SmCo or other types of chiral rare earth magnet, a chiral current may be possible to generate that will produce a chiral polarized magnetic field.

        There a SmCo motors available on the market as follows:

        https://www.ebay.com/i/151682217429?chn=ps&fl=a

        A motor can be converted to a generator by coupling the shaft of the rare earth motor to the shaft of a drive motor.
        Also, it may be possible to build a rare earth generator from scratch.

        Reason to produce a chiral magnetic field.
        A chiral magnetic has a heat limit where it loses the ability to produce a magnetic field is lost at a relatively low temperature.

        Decupling the magnetic field from the rare earth magnet using a chiral current produced by a chiral current generator will remove the heat limitation from the production of the magnetic field. The heating element of a LENR reactor can produce a chiral magnetic field as well are producing heat.

        To debug the chiral polarized magnetic field…
        A chiral electromagnetic magnet will produce a vortex in water bubbles as per this video

        https://youtu.be/UIlijUSJMmg

  • sam

    March 7, 2018 at 12:59 AM
    Dr Rossi:
    There is no way you have avoided any possible reverse engineering

    Andrea Rossi
    March 7, 2018 at 3:19 AM
    Paranoic:
    Believe me: it will be impossible. Beyond any possible doubt.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Omega Z

    Reverse Engineering

    China and India can build their own high performance fighter jets, but both obtain the high performance jet engines from Russia to power them.

    One should ask, WHY???

    Both have world class scientists, state of the art technology, high performance jet engines in their possession and have spent over 30 years and BILLION$ in research and are still about 10 years from achieving this technological ability. Reverse Engineering isn’t always as easy as it would seem.

    For most entities, it is simpler, cheaper and quicker to buy from the person who already paid the price to develop this technology. It is to cheap to bother with reverse engineering. Also, while one spends time and money on reverse engineering, Rossi/Leonardo will be moving ahead with the next iteration.

    • cashmemorz

      What to make of the phenomenon, that China was able to make or reinvent their own ball point pen, particularly the ball in the tip with the particular ink absorbing surface, only in 2016. Others, European, were able to make the first one that worked very well almost a hundred years earlier. Place this phenomenon against the fact that Orientals, as an almost absolute rule, think up theoretical physics processes that have more to do with imaginings based on almost wishful or unrealistic thinking as contrasted to use of imagination towards viable speculation based on educated guesses, leading to theory.

      • psi2u2

        Cashmemorz —

        China was already a scientifically advanced culture when Europeans were barely getting started. See Joseph Needham’s history of Science in China. http://web.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/History_of_science_and_technology_in_China. I am astounded also that you would resort to terms such as “Orientals” on which to base your analysis and attribute to several billion people of diverse cultural and intellectual accomplishment, “as an almost absolute rule” a particular form of “almost wishful or unrealistic thinking.” Unfortunately this comes across as being little better than unexamined prejudice combined with unrealistic overgeneralization.

        • cashmemorz

          What I stated was not to give my personal impression of anyone or any group. What I am trying to convey is what is known in the scientific community as I have come across certain data. The data shows a way of viewing the world that is very different from other groups, especially Europeans. The difference in view held by these two groups indicates more of personal wants in the Orientals and a more impartial view of the world by Europeans. The wall of China may be a symptom of such a view point on their part. One telling point on this is when a survey is taken of papers submitted about theoretical models about cosmos, the underlying common factor in those papers is an assumption that seems to say “I WANT the world to work in such and such a way” that is stronger in anthropomorphism than is the same view in Europeans. European religions have a strong anthropomorphic view of the world but more so in Orientals; with more compartmentalization of science and religion in Muslim religion. What their religion says is paramount, while scientific views are still truths apart from the religious view. From there they state that their religious view seems to contain the roots of scientific truths.

  • Dr. Mike

    With Rossi’s statement that it will be impossible to reverse engineer his devices it seems unlikely that he will be issued any additional patents protecting his intellectual property. If he is able to acquire additional patent protection of his IP, there is a good chance that the patents could be challenged for incomplete disclosure. If one assumes the key to Rossi’s devices is a trade secret fuel preparation, then it is quite possible that no amount of reverse engineering can come up with his process to prepare the fuel. However, could someone come up with a process that was just as good or maybe even better? Once the physics of LENR is well understood, my guess is that there will be many successful ways to prepare the fuel or to overcome any other aspect of Rossi’s device that he is keeping as a trade secret.

    • Omega Z

      Rossi knows there will be competitors. The name of the game is maintaining an advantage. It will require a couple years for any competitors to develop their own technology. In the mean time, many would be competitors will merely buy product or license Leonardo’s technology. Just normal business practice.

      Intel does not give it’s technological knowledge to it’s competitors. So as you point out, Intel’s competitors will have to develop their own. This requires creativity and innovation on the competitors part.

      Rossi/Leonardo’s competitors will have to do the same.This benefits society in greater advances at a faster pace. Lack of competition reduces urgency to make improvements or advance a technology..

      • Dr. Mike

        I agree with you that with more competition the technology will advance much faster. However, only the future will tell us whether Rossi is making the correct decision to keep part of his technology as a trade secret or if he would be better off acquiring full patent protection on his technology. My primary point was that now that Rossi has stated he is keeping part of his technology as a trade secret, there ins’t much chance that the USPO will issue him additional patents. My guess is that his previously issued patents might be challenged for failure to provide complete disclosure.

        • Omega Z

          Trade Secrets are not what they once were. There have been many discussions here on ECW about trade secrets. So over time I have researched it. They are nearly as defensible as copyright or patents. All that is required is that the person with the trade secret take reasonable steps to protect and not to disclose them.

          If you reverse engineer my technology and learn of my trade secrets, it is illegal to make use of or disclose them. You’re as liable as if you infringe on my patent. If due to business needs these trade secrets must be shared with a few, there are today ironclad contracts for this purpose holding those persons fully liable for it’s protection.

          The new regulations and laws created around trade secrets over the last decade or so are accepted nearly unanimously around the world today including China, India and Russia. Obviously, Large corporations have been a major source of support for this, but Governments have also come into support it. Intellectual property is fast becoming considered part of the national treasure.

          The biggest difference between standard IP and trade secrets. Trade secrets have no expiration date. As to Rossi’s patents. They are primarily hardware patents. Mostly cited a heat producing devices under the codes specified for heaters. While his patents specify elements in a list that can be used in them, there is no claim on the elements for the obvious reason that they can’t be patented.

          • Omega Z

            NOTE: No where does Rossi make a claim for LENR/Cold Fusion or a device of such. Yes, there is actually a Patent Office code for claims in that realm. In fact, the Patent that IH/Darden filed behind Rossi back cited those codes, thus it was rejected.

  • nietsnie

    The E-Cat: Now With Positronic Brain!

  • sam

    Frank Acland
    March 8, 2018 at 8:58 AM
    Dear Andrea,

    So will the first industrial E-Cat plants be built with combinations of 80 W E-Cat QX reactors?

    Thank you,

    Frank Acland

    Translate
    Andrea Rossi
    March 8, 2018 at 1:54 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Yes.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Svein Henrik
    March 8, 2018 at 10:07 AM
    Dear Andera.
    It seems there have been a tremendous evolution concerning power of the single units since the Stockholm meeting.
    For the first robotized industrial production planned at the end of 2018, is the decision of output of the single reactors already made? If so, what is this to be? If not, witch alternatives are actual?
    Regards Svein Henrik.

    Andrea Rossi
    March 8, 2018 at 1:53 PM
    Svein Henrik:
    No, the decision has not yet made, because we have much more R&D to make on the tigerized Ecats.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Steven N. Karels
    March 8, 2018 at 1:06 PM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,

    Congrats on the reactor progress. May we assume significant developments are occurring on the Controller design?

    Andrea Rossi
    March 8, 2018 at 1:51 PM
    Steven N. Karels:
    You can bet all you have on this !
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Steven N. Karels
    March 8, 2018 at 5:22 AM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,

    Perhaps I did not make myself clear… The question was not of a production of power but of mechanical packaging. Instead of producing 20W eCat reactors and externally tying them in series, all controlled by a single Controller, have you considered a single enclosure containing 100 compartments. Between the compartments would be a conducting electrode. Each compartment would contain the fuel.

    The alternative would be to remain with your current 20W design and electrically connect them in series and then to enclose them in an overall container. You probably don’t want to exchange eCat reactors at 20W reactor sizes.

    Andrea Rossi
    March 8, 2018 at 7:42 AM
    Steven N. Karels:
    We have now 80 W modules, that can be assembled in series and parallels. We are testing prototypes of 10 kW and 100 kW single reactors.
    I cannot give information about the control systems.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Jimr

    I believe ABB (if that is his partner) is having a major impact on Rossi,s development stratagy. Perhaps even guiding it.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Reverse means braking thrust, so anti-reverse must mean normal forward thrust:-)

  • frank

    The main problem of Rossi is that he never seems to complete an industrial design to be ready to start production of a finished product. Constant changes to a design requires endless testing, documentation and resets the certification counter…may be that is his plan, so no need to be concerned on reverse engineering, if there’s noting on the market…

    • LarryJ

      Industrial Heat engineered the 6 year delay in bringing Rossi’s tech to market. They owned the IP ever since 2012 and Rossi’s hands were tied. IH was interested in selling investments not building reactors. Note the difference in tone and activity since IH were forced to relinquish their ownership of Rossi’s IP. Now Rossi is back in charge we will see a product. Rossi will never stop R&D. Nobody does that and it has nothing to do with products in the pipeline.

  • Omega Z

    Most of the Oil and N-gas will be near depletion before a transition is completed.
    As to Rossi’s technology, I didn’t know Rossi’s brain was interfaced with the internet.

  • LarryJ

    Markets are valued on future potential not current value. Cheap energy will definitely be disruptive for the future potential of the energy industry but for manufacturing and technology it will usher in the greatest bull market in history.

  • LarryJ

    I think once Rossi is on the market with his reactor he will face fierce competition and his patent will only afford him modest protection at best. He will enjoy first mover advantage for a while but he will have to work very hard to keep his lead technically because as you point out the horizons that could be opened are inconceivable and the amount of research dollars that will be directed towards this field will be vast.

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