Hot Hot Cat: Large E-Cat SK ‘Reaches 11000C+ (1 eV)’

Andrea Rossi has reported that he and his team is currently testing out a much larger version of the E-Cat QX, which he has named the E-Cat SK (after Sven Kullander).

Rossi was asked on the Journal of Nuclear Physics what temperature he was reaching with the E-Cat SK, and he responded: “1 eV (circa), measured by means of the spectrometer.”

Xavier Pitz followed up with this comment:

Xavier Pitz
March 20, 2018 at 4:50 AM
Dear Andrea,

Could you please elaborate on the temperature measurement in eV ?
I’d like to understand how “hot” is 1eV, and I’m only used to °C or K.

Is 1eV really equals to 11604.5250061657 kelvin [K] like I could read here :
https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en/energy/11-65/electron-volt-kelvin/ ?

If it is really is so hot (that’s hotter than the average (5778 K) temperature of the Sun when excluding solar flares), I think those who are still calling it “cold” fusion really have to find another name for it 🙂

eV Regards,

Xavier

/

Rossi replied:

Andrea Rossi
March 20, 2018 at 8:11 AM
Xavier Pitz:
Yes, 1 eV=~ 11 600 K ( 11 873 C )
The T of our sun is between 15 and 1 millions K, with cold areas at ~5-6 000 K
I agree on the fact that ” cold fusion ” is not a proper definition, LENR is better.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

All to be confirmed of course, but if this is reality, and the COP is high, then this is another impressive development. Although I had thought that the 2600 C (600 C on the secondary circuit, after the heat exchanger) of the E-Cat QX would have been plenty hot enough for most practical needs.

  • Hador_NYC

    I have to say this. Who cares?! I want to see a product that I can buy, directly to heat my home, or indirectly, from a power company using it to make electricity.

  • LilyLover

    Probably the first time Dr. Rossi mixed up °C & K. Seems too exited to tell this tale!
    At this temperature, he can ‘make bricks’ too!!! So, yes, the entire housing market cares!

  • Oystein Lande

    So he has created some sort of magnetic containment to contain that hot plasma?

    • Buck

      I am thinking a good way to describe Rossi’s “creation” of a magnetic containment for the hot plasma is to look at the SAFIRE video and presentation available here at EcatWorld as well as at SAFIREProject.com

      The cover photo of the presentation ( http://safireproject.com/project/presentation.html ) shows a multi-layer plasma. The presentation outlines that these individual layers naturally form out of the plasma. No external device for enacting a magnetic containment dividing the different layers is used, much less technologically available . . . “Mother Nature” provides the magnetic containment.

      It becomes a reasonable guess that Rossi, as a pre-sequal to the SAFIRE story, has engineered the module to generate the plasma with “Mother Nature” adding the necessary containment fields. The Ecat fuel is then consumed as a means of harvesting the LENR generated of energy in a trickle rather than a torrent.

      • Gerard McEk

        Yes 1 Tesla is quite strong, but not extremely. A medical MRI has values up to 7 Tesla.
        We know AR uses an AC current, whereas SAFIRE uses a DC current, a remarkable and probably crucial difference I would think, interesting!

        • Bob Greenyer

          Are you sure the QX is not a AC with a DC bias – ie always at least a little in one direction?

          • Gerard McEk

            No, it could well be that AC is superposed on DC. Nevertheless, the natural resonance must be enhanced/synchronized with the AC current otherwise the SAFIRE resonance effect will be deminished.

      • HS61AF91

        what a miraculous, natural, benevolent entity is mother nature. Yep, God helps those who help themselves, and have good hearts.

    • Observer

      Simple, he does not contain it.

      Is the plasma of a lightning bolt “contained”?

      From: https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/239-lightning-explained

      “Temperatures in the narrow lightning channel reach about 25,000°C.”

      • Oystein Lande

        He says he has an e-cat with high temp, i,e it must be contained. He has to avoid the plasma hitting the inside walls, or the walls will melt, therefore the question.

        • Rene

          The walls would melt if it really were 11000K, but they could be fine at the more likely 2340K. He’s having a senior moment in temperature measurement.

  • Dr. Mike

    1eV does not equal any temperature. How many feet are there in 60 seconds? Doesn’t make much sense to ask such a question, does it? When Rossi quotes a “temperature” as “1eV” as measured by spectrometry, he surely means that he has measured the wavelength at the peak of the spectrometer’s output at 1eV. From Wien’s law and assuming he is measuring a blackbody spectrum, the measured blackbody temperature would be 2900K (2900 / wavelength). Why Rossi would agree with Xavier that 1eV could be converted to a temperature is certainly unknown unless he was perhaps trying to spread mis-information.

    • Nicolas Chauvin

      eV can be used to express a plasma temperature. In fact, the temperature is the energy in eV divided by the Boltzmann constant.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_temperature?wprov=sfla1

      • Dr. Mike

        Do you really think Rossi measured a temperature of >11,000K with his spectrometer, or did he really meant to say the spectrometer measured the peak output at a wavelength of 1um (not 1eV)? If he really meant he measured the peak output at an energy of 1.0eV, this would correspond to a wavelength of 1.24um, or from Wien’s law a temperature of about 2340K. (Since Rossi’s chosen units for the spectrometer output in the demo was a function of wavelength, it does not seem likely that he would now switch to the output as a function of energy: eV’s.) Rossi’s spectrometer measurement indicates an operating temperature of either 2900K or 2340K, not >11,000K.

        • Frank Acland

          It looks like he really means eV from this exchange :

          Pekka Janhunen
          March 20, 2018 at 11:31 AM
          Dear Andrea,
          Although using eV as a unit of temperature is correct and is frequently done, there is a potential source of confusion. For example, the Sun emits mostly about 0.5 micron photons whose energy is about 2.5 eV. Yet, the Sun’s surface temperature of 6000K is only about 0.5 eV i.e. five times less than the photons. How can this be? The reason is the nonlinear nature of the Planck radiation law spectrum. It is mathematically explained e.g. in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wien%27s_displacement_law ; there the quantity x whose numerical value is about 5 explains the difference. The quantity x is the root of a nonlinear equation involving the exponential function and a rational function.
          regards, /pekka

          Andrea Rossi
          March 20, 2018 at 1:42 PM
          Pekka Janhunen:
          I am using eV in this period because that’s the unit we use in the context of the theory we are working on.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.

          • Dr. Mike

            This exchange does indicate he means “1 eV”. Again in this question Rossi fails to explain how he used a spectrometer to measure the operating temperature of SK and to give an unambiguous answer as to the estimated operating temperature in degrees C or K. From his explanation of his failed attempt to measure the operating temperature of the QX in the demo using the spectrometer, the 1eV would be the photon energy (rather than photon wavelength) of the peak energy in the output spectrum of the spectrometer, yielding a measured temperature of about 2340K, assuming the spectrum being measured was close to an ideal blackbody radiation.

    • roseland67

      Dr Mike,

      Once, just once, I would prefer Rossi to tell us exactly what he “surely means”.

      He throws out these abstract conflicting data and hopes the blog will decipher them and put some kind of useful meaning to them.
      Like the insanely ridiculous heat exchanger fiasco.
      1 picture, drawing, bill of material etc would have eliminated the entire concern, but he just told everyone what he did, leaving it to these people who believed him to develop some logic to cha.

      • Dr. Mike

        It would be nice to get clear answers from Rossi, especially on issues that would not reveal any of his intellectual property.

  • Bob Greenyer

    I think that something can appear hot when it is not actually hot. The key phrase here is:

    “measured by means of the spectrometer”

    • guitarwebs

      Sounds like Judy Woods’ observations.

      • Bob Greenyer

        It is one thing to observe – it is another thing to KNOW the reason.

        There is at least one person in the Electric Universe community that I have learned of in the past week that would KNOW why these effects occur (but not necessarily how) if they were only to apply their understanding to the evidence.

  • Ophelia Rump

    “All to be confirmed of course, but if this is reality, and the COP is high, ”

    I believe that the direct correlation between temperature and COP has been established, if not simply accepted as self evident.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Higher temperature requires the presence of more heat for a given mass.

    More heat output is higher COP.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    In the 1990s, Mizuno used proton conductors in his LENR experiments. Maybe a lithium containing proton conducting ceramic (something like beta-alumina but made with lithium instead of sodium) is being used here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-alumina_solid_electrolyte
    https://artursala.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/tadahiko-mizuno-cold-fusion.jpg

  • Hador_NYC

    No, I have been following, and usually cheering Rossi for years. In truth, as it was with EEStor, my patience is running out. These guys are getting as bad as defense contractors, promising the world, but not delivering.

    • Hador_NYC

      I don’t say much as, while I am an engineer working and educated in Electrical and Software engineering for the last 20 years, but not in fields that apply here. I can’t add to the technical discussion. Adding to cheering seems pointless, but yesterday, I felt the need to air some frustration. I feel the same way about Hot Fusion, and the various attempts there.

    • roseland67

      Hador,

      Good analogy,
      I have used it also, Similar hype,
      no tangible results from either

  • sam

    Anonymous
    March 21, 2018 at 12:07 AM
    Dr Andrea Rossi,
    Still on schedule for the presentation of a product in operation by the end of the year?

    Andrea Rossi
    March 21, 2018 at 9:53 AM
    Anonymous:
    Yes.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Steven N. Karels
    March 21, 2018 at 4:22 AM
    Dear Andrea,

    Since we are trying acronyms, how about:

    Advanced
    Nuclear
    Development &
    Research
    Engineering
    Activity (ANDREA) LOL.

    Translate
    Andrea Rossi
    March 21, 2018 at 9:52 AM
    Steven N. Karels:
    He,he,he…Thank you!
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Frank Acland
    March 21, 2018 at 7:45 AM
    Dear Andrea,

    How is morale among those who are working with you on the industrialization. Frustrated? Energized?Optimistic? Exhausted, or …. ?

    Best wishes,

    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    March 21, 2018 at 9:51 AM
    Frank Acland:
    Energized with a high COP.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Axil Axil

    http://depts.washington.edu/cmditr/modules/lum/electromagnetic_spectrum.html

    http://depts.washington.edu/cmditr/modules/lum/600px-Emspectrum_energy.jpg

    Home
    Luminescence Phenomena
    Electromagnetic Radiation
    Electromagnetic Spectrum
    Color
    Chromaticity
    Additive and Subtractive Color Mixing
    Electromagnetic Spectrum
    Electromagnetic Spectrum

    Contents
    1 Connecting Wavelength, Energy and Time
    2 Visible spectrum
    3 Converting from wavelength to eV
    4 Thermal Energy
    5 Uncertainty and precision
    6 Knowledge Check
    Connecting Wavelength, Energy and Time
    The wavelength, frequency and energy of the em spectrum.
    In the ultraviolet you have 3 to 30 eV energies, in the range of 100 to 1000 eV you have soft x-rays, and beyond that hard x-rays. In the visible spectrum you have wavelengths of a nanometer. But in the soft x-rays you have wavelengths in the order of angstroms. This is why you can use the diffraction of soft x-rays to explore the crystal structure of molecules; the wavelength is in the approximate scale of that of atoms and bonds. In the range of mega eV it is the range of gamma rays.

    On the lower energy end there is the infrared. If you take an IR spectrum of a pi conjugated system the bond stretching of a CC double bond is about 1600 wave numbers or about .2 eV and the frequency is in the sub pico second regime. In a pi conjugated molecule in an excited state there will be bond length relaxation in few tenths of a picosecond. When you have motion of molecules as a whole you can have of 20-50 wave numbers in the millivolt scale, and timescales of 10-100 pico seconds.

    Beyond that the microwave and radio wave with wavelengths that are very large, and in the mega or kilohertz. It is useful to keep in mind the relations between the wavelengths, spectrum and energies.

    1 eV = 1.6 x10-19 J

    = 96.5 kJ/mol ~100 kJ/mol

    ~23kcal/mol

    = 8065 cm-1 (wave numbers)

    Try the EM Quiz

    Visible spectrum
    The visible is a very small part of the electromagnetic spectrum, from 700nm on the low energy red side to 400nm on the high energy violet side

    The visible is a very small part of the electromagnetic spectrum, from 700nm on the low energy red side to 400nm on the high energy violet side
    The energies of the spectrum vary from about 3eV on the violet side to 1.5eV on the red side in approximate terms. The frequencies are in the mid 10^14 scales. This is important because it determines the time scales for events. For example an event such as energy transition in a pi conjugated system which will be 2 or 3eV, that means you will be in the range of the visible spectra frequencies so your timescale for that process will be in the femptoseconds.

    The color red green blue (RGB) colors when they are combined create white light. You can also combine magenta and green to create white light.

    Converting from wavelength to eV
    It is possible to convert quickly from wavelength to electron volts

    For 1 eV:

    http://depts.washington.edu/cmditr/modules/lum/79d19b2b52e56f51a15cfaf96f02081f.png

    λ ~1240nm

    This light is in the infrared

    • frank

      So – why not using wavelength or frequency to explain the temperature of the plasma? I am sure most people are more used to those values than eV…(sarcastic). This “E-Cat hot and cold temperature discussion” getting out of control…

  • Bob Greenyer

    Not all of the Kanthal is surviving… Look at the video of the affected core section… what is it telling you?

  • Bob Greenyer

    Well – except for the end and partially in other places https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ece74c2891b8eb9040fc2ccc34628d25ffde660de5362d6e00c0747962b85fc5.jpg – where something or a process has migrated the whole way round the wire.

    • Pink Panther

      That is contamination from the alumina. If you look at the three spirals (left to right) where there is no contamination- this is because it is not contacting the alumina, however where the kanthal wire is in direct contact with the alumina, the contamination occurs. It’s also likely that the piece of alumina which has broken off was in direct contact with the wire in that area too.
      What may be interesting however is to consider that if, given more time, would the alumina have hollowed itself away from the wire and shortly thereafter would the contaminated wire have become clean again?

      • Bob Greenyer

        I think you need to wait till I can finish my next blog.

      • Alan Smith

        In a model T reactor, the 0.9mm Kanthal wire is sandwiched in a 1.0mm gap between the quartz tube and the alumina foam. It’s an 18mm tube fitted into a 20mm hole- so the wire is in close contact all the time. I have run the system at over 800C on occasions for up to 9 days, and never had a coil failure due to corrosive breakdown or seen visible erosion of the alumina blocks.

    • Pink Panther

      It would be interesting too to understand the exact chemical composition of the foamed alumina block. Would it be possible to get the part number or supplier of this component?

      • Bob Greenyer

        Class 26 alumina foam furnace face bricks

  • Dr. Mike

    Agree totally. Energy Out was measured satisfactorily at the demo: Energy In was not measured. Assuming Rossi has a commercial product by the end of 2018, someone should be able to measure the electrical Energy In to the system, and the heat Energy Out. One would think that this information would be released in a preliminary spec fairly soon so that potential customers could begin making plans on how to use these systems? However, I don’t see much of a market for Rossi’s systems until the product reliability is confirmed. The reliability will have to be nearly as good as existing heating systems before customers will convert to E-Cat technology, even if the costs (including operating costs) are much less for E-Cat systems.

  • Guru Khalsa

    11 thousand, or 11 hundred is Rossi really saying 11 thousand deg C? What material doesn’t melt at 11 thousand deg C. Google doesn’t seem to know, correct if I am wrong please. Must be a typo no? Isn’t there an easy way of measuring temperature at a set distance from a radiating body not involving frequency, like maybe a thermometer at a meter away, or see how close cast iron can get to it before melting? I am no scientist/engineer so there is probably something I am missing but 11 thousand really?

    • Buck

      In the following exchange, Rossi provides confirmation of the 1ev = 11,000 C

      ==================================

      domenico canino
      March 23, 2018 at 3:16 AM

      dear andrea,

      How can you handle all that heat (1ev=11.000)? New materials or a totally new method to confine it?
      _________________________________
      Translate
      Andrea Rossi
      March 23, 2018 at 8:03 AM

      Domenico Canino:

      This issue is confidential.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

      • Guru Khalsa

        I know some people looking at this forum think ‘These people are so gullible’ but personally I have chosen to suspend judgment because all the facts are not in. Rossi must have something he isn’t showing us that he is showing investors otherwise he wouldn’t continue to get funding. But if there is a material that can withstand that heat how do you re cycle it or even create it for that matter. Still they say that the exterior of the sun is much hotter than the interior so it might be possible that the heat is not in the material but projected a distance away from it. This might also explain how nickle is used in a solid form. Still one can only guess, I guess but it’s confidential.

        • Buck

          I believe a reasonable assumption is to see Rossi’s challenge of working with the 11,000 C plasma within the suggested framework of the SAFIRE Project and its identification of naturally formed containment layers of up to 7eV, or 86,000C, plasma.

          Look at the SAFIRE video and presentation available here at EcatWorld as well as at SAFIREProject.com

          The cover photo of the presentation ( http://safireproject.com/ ) shows a multi-layer plasma. The presentation outlines that these individual layers naturally form out of the plasma. No external device for enacting a magnetic containment dividing the different layers is used, much less technologically available . . . “Mother Nature” provides the magnetic containment. The last part of the video starting at about the 53:00 mark, has the researches discussing this issue. (IMO, the whole video is worth watching . . . it was evident that the researchers were completely surprised by the results of the many experiments culminating in the presentation presented on the video . . . they even pointed out the connection to LENR.)

          It becomes a reasonable guess that Rossi, as a prequal to the SAFIRE story, has engineered the module to
          generate the plasma with “Mother Nature” adding the necessary containment fields. Over time, Rossi has improved his ability to work within the hostile environment of the plasma. The Ecat fuel is then consumed as a means of harvesting the LENR generated energy in a trickle rather than a torrent. Further, as Rossi has repeatedly mentioned, one can measure a magnetic field of one Tesla . . . I don’t know the relative strength of one Tesla, but my guess is that it is relatively strong, a guess affirmed by Gerard McEk elsewhere on this thread.

        • Dr. Mike

          Although Rossi agrees that 1eV= >11,000K, no where does he say his new E-Cat’s are operating at >11,000K. Rossi’s claims his “1eV” was a measurement using a spectrometer. Please refer to the demo to determine how Rossi uses a spectrometer to measure temperature. I think you will come to the conclusion that the “1ev” means the photon energy at the peak of the output spectrum of the spectrometer, which corresponds to 2340K using Wien’s law.

          • Axil Axil

            Wien’s law applies to only to black body radiation. If the spectrum is produced by another mechanism the temperature is far lower and so is the COP,

            The QX reactor also produce blue light. Is that light also subject to black body calculations? If not, why not. Why was 1 ev picked as the spectral line of choice? Why not the blue line that denotes a black body temperature of 100,000k.

          • Dr. Mike

            In the demo Rossi explained (but was not able to demonstrate) how he measured temperature with a spectrometer. Rossi is the one that claims the output spectrum of the plasma is blackbody radiation. It makes more sense that the larger E-cats are an evolution of the QX device than to assume that they operate on a new mechanism.
            One eV was not picked as the spectral line of choice. The output of the spectrometer was measured as a function of energy and the peak of the spectrum was found to be at about 1eV, which is equivalent to a wavelength of 1.24um or a blackbody temperature of about 2340K.

          • Axil Axil

            IMHO, Rossi is seeing what he wants to see and he ignores all the rest.

          • Buck

            A strange criticism of the one who seems to be far ahead of all others in harnessing the undefined, unknown physical phenomena underpinning LENR. His ‘blindness’ seems to be more of a very effective guided intuition.

          • Dr. Mike

            This would not be the first time that Rossi misleads people as to what he is doing. It would be nice if he would either give an unambiguous answer to relevant questions or simply state that the answer to the question is confidential. I don’t have any problem with Rossi withholding information which he considers confidential. However, answers to non-confidential questions should be answered in in a straight forward manner that one might expect from a knowledgeable scientist.

      • roseland67

        This means he is waiting for the engineers and scientists in the ether
        to find an answer for him.

  • Bruce__H

    I think that much of the metal that has flowed up and around the quartz tube and also covered the kanthal wire in places must contain copper. It would have originated from the copper wire wrapped around the reactor core and have melted off and pooled underneath. At some point the quartz cylinder was breached and the pooled liquid copper flowed out to invade the foam alumina block underneath and also to follow the kanthal siring up and around the cylinder.

    If the stuff covering the kanthal sire is analyzed I think it will contain lots of cupric oxide mixed with other stuff. Same with the big dark blob that has invaded the alumina foam block.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Kanthal is used in millions of furnaces all over the world with foamed alumina furnace bricks every day – they are designed to work together.

  • Axil Axil

    There are two ways to produce a spectral line of color. A black body at give temperature can radiate and produce a spectral line that correspond to a given temperature. Or a electron can charge energy levels in an atom which releases photons corresponding to the energy release in the traditions of orbit level,

    http://slideplayer.com/10586543/36/images/3/The+Bohr+Model+Thought+electrons+orbited+like+planets.jpg

    There are processes is nature that can produce spectral lines that have nothing to do with black body radiation. One of these processes is Hawking radiation emitted by a Bose condensate.

    If Rossi does not recognize that LENR is based on Bose condensation, then he will assume that the light that he sees is coming from black body radiation. But he could be wrong. It could be coming from the light that is produced by a Bose condensate.

    The color change that the QX produces from red to blue as its power output changes is exactly how a Bose condensate produces light. So a polariton Bose condensate is what is producing heat in the QX reactor and not a black body radiator.

    The problems caused by assuming that a 11,000C black body radiator is producing the heat in the QX proves that the heat is coming from a Bose condensate.

  • The measurement of radiation of sources with discrete spectral lines in general results into higher effective temperature than they really have, if they would radiate in continuous spectrum of ideal black body. For example the effective temperature of the rather monochromatic light of common red laser pointer is many thousands of degrees, because it would heat the black body to such a temperature, if it would get focused enough. Andrea Rossi should check his sample with spectrometer before interpreting its light by temperature.

  • Axil Axil

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polariton_laser

    https://www.photonics.com/images/Web/Articles/2013/5/16/Polariton.jpg

    A polariton condensate can produce light without generating any heat as this polariton laser demonstrates.

  • Alan Smith

    You can have very high temperatures -for example inside a tokamak – but there are so few hot particles present that it doesn’t melt anything.

    https://www.iter.org/doc/www/content/com/Lists/Stories/Attachments/760/playboy.pdf

    • Axil Axil

      I thought the plasma doesn’t melt the walls because the plasma is confined inside a magnetic bottle. Well, we live and learn…

      But wait…why then do they need all those superconducting magnets?

      • Alan Smith

        If you bothered to read the document I linked, you would understand.

        • Axil Axil

          It is pointless to read about a fantasy that will never happen.

  • sam

    Frank Acland
    March 26, 2018 at 8:51 AM
    Dear Andrea,

    What are the main things you have left to accomplish before you can begin the production and sales of E-Cat plants?

    Many thanks,

    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    March 26, 2018 at 1:45 PM
    Frank Acland:
    I prefer not to enter in these particulars, but what is troubling us more is the definition of all the particulars of the modules before a bulk production: if you make an error in this issue you get the errors in all the modules, with the consequences you can imagine.
    But many other issues remain and I want not to disclose them.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.