“LION – is it the Basis for a $bn+ Industry?” (Bob Greenyer)

Bob Greenyer of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project has published a new video and a new post on the MFMP’s Steemit blog a new post analyzing the LION 2 reactor which was sent to Bob in a rather destroyed state by its maker (who goes by the name of LION here on E-Cat World).

Bob’s video can be seen here:

The Steemit post can be read here:


Bob’s conclusion is here:

The LION 2 reactor appears to have been transmuting Cr found in the Kanthal A1 heater wire, via addition of Deuterons through Mn to Fe. If so, this represents a high nuclear transmutation yield process that begins with easily obtainable, safe, off the shelf elements and industrial materials with the products not able to have radioactivity of any kind after the 50Cr is imploded to stable isotopes. Further study of other pieces of heater wire / flakes need to be conducted with mass spectrometry and magnetic resonance techniques to confirm this finding via determining isotopic concentrations, especially 57Fe.

If confirmed, this technology has the potential to form the basis of a multi-billion dollar nuclear waste and contamination treatment industry that is much needed, especially for those living around the pacific given both Fukashima and Enewetak Atoll. It also may be able to synthesise commercially important elements profitably making it a desirable experiment for first time LENR researchers.

  • HAL9000

    Might this process possibly be used to create new elements never seen before?

    • Bob Greenyer

      S.V. Adamenko’s team did just that.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Those apparent „new elements“ might actually be compounds, possibly of a new (‘neochemical’) type. That would be interesting enough if true.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Perhaps. He claimed they were stable – one would imagine that oxidation / reduction or dissolving in acid and then precipitating might be ways to confirm their chemical integrity.

        • Stephen

          Yup that would be stunning if it worked like that even for compounds imitating existing chemicals.

          I wonder…

          Iit would reallyly be new technology enabling I suspect.

  • Jas

    If it can make Platinum like Bob suggests in the video then the MFMP could self finance their research.

    • Jas

      How much could a Lion reactor make though. Are we talking about microscopic amounts?

      • Omega Z

        Two points.
        1) Probably small quantities and
        2) If everyone has it, it has little value.

        Like Gold, if not for everyone’s false faith in it, It would likely sell for $10’s of dollars a troy ounce.

        • Axil Axil

          The effect on the general impression of LENR would be profound, maybe more profound than a working LENR reactor.

          The fall in the value of gold would be a small price to pay to empower rabid interest in the LENR reaction…a LENR gold rush if you please.

          • Bob Greenyer

            This is the point Axil, as often the case, you get my point.

            People can get heat in a number of ways, there are not many ways to get Platinum and basically no practical methods to accelerate the decays of 90Sr and 137Cs.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Platinum has many industrial uses and it is extremely expensive and damaging to the environment to produce.

          If commercially viable, for first movers, it could present a very tidy return.

          • Warthog

            “Platinum has many industrial uses and it is extremely expensive and damaging to the environment to produce.”

            I’ll give you many industrial solutions and expensive, but how is it damaging to the environment more so than any other mining-produced metal??

          • Bob Greenyer

            It is found in very small quantities.

          • Omega Z

            It would be commercially viable, for first movers for a while. In the long term, it’s value will drop a lot. Consider about 45/50% is used in catalytic converter and 10% for Oil refining with approximately 30% for jewelry,

            Desalinization has serious environmental issues with the mineral waste. Technology in development will eliminate most of that issue and platinum is one of many elements that will be extracted.

            With the increase in supply and the reduction of demand for convertors and refining, future prices will plummet.

      • Bob Greenyer

        I have started writing a blog post to address this question, Easter may hold it a little but there is much to consider.

        In short, not necessarily small amounts – I will present strong arguments.

  • Stephen

    Hi Bob, it might be off topic or might not, I’m not fully sure. but I wonder if this paper on abundance’s of chemical elements in the solar corona is interesting.


    There some aspects that are not easily understood with current understanding particularly the changes in some ratios between thosd seen in the corona and thosd seen in the photosphere.

    They talk about the particular different effects on elements with low first ionization potential compared with thosd with high first ionization potential. I think those with low values gave higher ratios in the corona than the photosphere.

    I wonder if LENR is occurring with nano particles or EM shocks or structures in the coorona if there are signatures in the abundance’s of these elements that could be looked for.

    I’m curious if those elements match the ones in the nuclear density plots you see of big.

    It’s curious the abundance’s of these elements in the corona and photosphere. Especially thosd have different abundance’s in each since they should be coming from the primordial material than manufactured in the sun… in less something is generating them.

    Could the abundance of protons in the corona be affected by proton ejection if Bobs observation is correct?

    I’m far from expert on the composition of the corona. I wonder if some one with that experience could add something here and explain if there are known explanations or not and if a LENR explanation could fit of if the element signature fits some how of not?

    • Axil Axil

      Journal of Geophysical Research: Space Physics banner

      Research Article

      The solar wind proton ejection mechanism: Experiments with ultradense hydrogen agree with observed velocity distributions

      Leif Holmlid

      First published: 11 August 2017 https://doi.org/10.1002/2017JA024498


      Ultradense hydrogen H(0) is a very dense hydrogen cluster phase with H‐H distances in the picometer range. It has been studied experimentally in several publications from our group. A theoretical model exists which agrees well with laser‐pulse‐induced time‐of‐flight spectra and with rotational spectroscopy emission spectra. Coulomb explosions in H(0) in spin state s = 1 generate protons with kinetic energies larger than the retaining gravitational energy at the photosphere of the Sun. The required proton kinetic energy above 2 keV has been directly observed in published experiments. Such protons may be ejected from the Sun and are proposed to form the solar wind. The velocity distributions of the protons are calculated for three different ejecting modes from spin state s = 1. They agree well with both the fast and the slow solar winds. The best agreement is found for H(0) cluster sizes of 3 and 20–50 atoms; such clusters have been studied experimentally previously. The properties of ultradense hydrogen H(0) give also a few novel possibilities to explain the high corona temperature of the Sun.

      Plain Language Summary

      The solar wind contains protons from the Sun with high velocity. The mechanism for their ejection from the strong gravitation at the Sun’s surface has been debated for a long time. Protons with high enough energy can be ejected from a condensed form of hydrogen called ultradense hydrogen, which is stable even at the temperature of the Sun. Experiments show that such a mechanism exists. Calculations now give good agreement with the velocities of both the slow and the fast solar winds.


      The only way that the solar wind can escape the Sun’s gravity well is for a process far stronger than fusion to occur in the corona.

      In his experiments, Holmlid has seen the decay of nucleons produce highly energetic nuclear reactions up to 500 MeV. This is energetically strong enough to overcome solar gravity and launch the solar wind off the surface of the Sun.

      This says that the Sun is powered by the LENR reaction based on ultra dense hydrogen.

      • Bob Greenyer

        I am increasingly of the view that LENR is what powers the sun – and, honestly, I feel quite sorry for those working on Hot fusion.

    • Bob Greenyer

      It suspect we will find there are two parts to this story.

      The ‘Spheres’ are the first.

  • Axil Axil

    I beleive that a smple experiment using tungsten nanoppwder might produce gold but more likely platinum.

    Are you willing to give it a try? Anyone…

    • Bob Greenyer

      More likely platinum. I think if we can master the basic process, this would be a good route – we did buy W powder a few years back – not so hard to get.

  • Axil Axil

    All those options are possible. Their implementations will differ, however.

    • Bob Greenyer

      If verified, what you say is true Axil.

  • Axil Axil

    It could be that the way that a super-heavy element is produce could lead to stability. The way that heavy elements are currently produced imparts high energy to the nucleus that must to relieved by decay. LENR based formation will leave the heavy nucleus stable.

  • David_Kaiser_39

    Will Alan make his replication effort live? If so, when is he planning to do it?

    • Bob Greenyer

      I need to catch up with him – lost a day yesterday due to a bus fire at Stansted airport and being diverted to the other side of the country.

      • David_Kaiser_39

        OMG – just saw the news. Just take care, Bob. Save travel.

    • Alan Smith

      We have no b/band possibly for another 10 days. Disgraceful service by all concerned. There is a ‘non-LION’ run – but using diamond pads prepared according to the LION protocol – currently 100 hours in. Nothing extraordinary to report but will check back in later.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Bummer Alan.

      • Alan Smith

        Paid a visit to check on the LION rest run- nothing to report really – reactor steady at 800C, heater draw normal, radiation maybe a little up- but that could be thermal creep. Left it running all alone overnight.

        • Stephen

          If this turns out to be a long duration null result run. With very similar input materials and heating profile to the actual LION reactor it’s going to be very interesting to compare its results with the actual LION.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Please capture and share as much data and aspects of the protocol actually used as there maybe some things that are in there that are important.

          • Alan Smith

            We have records of it all, and data-capture all the way, so no problems there. A null can be as important as a positive result.

        • Alan Smith

          Update. Switched off the reactor today after 140 hours from start. No surprising effects seen, preliminary data analysis underway but at first glance it looks like a null result.

      • Stephen Taylor

        Alan, are these 30 day soaked diapads? So, is this test being conducted as close to LION protocol as is currently possible?

        • Alan Smith

          Yes Stephen – “… using diamond pads prepared according to the LION protocol.” But the protocol I have is mostly anecdotal, so may not be perfect. In experimental terms this is ‘baby steps’.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Understood, thank you. I do hope the LION presenter is willing and able to provide sufficient guidance for a successful replication. Otherwise we remain pretty much as we were except we have some odd physical evidence to explain with little real information on how it came to be in it’s current state.

          • Alan Smith

            I am sure that LION will help us to get this off the ground.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Thanks Alan, it is so important.

  • Bob Greenyer

    LeClaire and Adamenko synthesised Gold, I talked about the latter in my Copenhagen lecture.

    Gold was apparently synthesised in Suhas Ralkar’s foil making system as reported last year.

    In each of these cases, in my view, it is fast make and break of the active agent and the unpredictability of the intermediary status that leads to the formation, but the predictability maybe low and there is a higher likelyhood, due to the intense implosion, to produce lead.

    Gold may be harder to achieve in a controlled way, Biological approaches may be better, indeed, there are claimed Ayurvedic approaches to this end which I will explore in the future.

    I will also present how elements may be able to be targetted during ‘O Day’.

    I think as understanding accelerates – more defined options will emerge. In the meantime, MHI has replicated production of Pt from W with addition of deuterium nuclei and so that is a potentially fruitful avenue for research.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Since Adamenko started learning the Soviet method for Cold Nuclear Transmutation in 1958 and conducted the largest ever man-year research program at ‘Proton-21’ in Ukraine at a lab that was for decades employing 600 people to make isotopes, if he reports observing super-massive stable nuclei, I am not in a good position to argue with his determination.

    • Axil Axil

      Dr. Miley’s LENR research has shown both excess heat and a wide variety of transmutation products such as iron, copper, calcium, zinc, even gold and rare earth elements have been detected. His cells are composed of super-thin layers of palladium and nickel atop a metal substrate to form an electrode submerged in a heavy water solution. After cycles of loading and de-loading, he hypothesizes that hydrogen (or deuterium) collects in the small cracks and voids between the film layers forming clusters. Superconducting quantum interference devices SQUID have confirmed ultra-dense states of deuterons within palladium crystal defects.


      A cluster of hydrogen squeezed between the metallic lattice from Condensed Matter Cluster Reactions in LENR Miley Hora Yang
      The clusters are collections of hydrogen nuclei called protons, or deuterium nuclei called deuterons (which are protons with an added neutron). Clusters are thought to be composed of 1000 hydrogen nuclei or more, all bunched up together.
      Dr. Miley uses the language nuclear active environment NAE to describe these localized clusters that lead to a reaction, cratering the surface.

      When the hydrogen is so close together, an NAE will ultimately produce fusion products, creating both excess heat energy and heavier elements. It is these heavier elements which then may break apart, fissioning, creating the plethora of new transmutation elements directly measured in his cells.

      • Bob Greenyer

        George Miley is on the advisory board of Adameko’s venture in the US.

        Brian Josephson was a technical advisor on Adamenko’s book.

  • Axil Axil

    There are many ways to activate the LENR reaction. Using nanoplasmonics, another way that might be very convenient to use to activate the LENR reaction is laser irradiation (or just high intensity light) of elements in a transparent solution with nano-particles.

    Water, heavy water or molten salt could serve as the transparent solution.

    Accelerated alpha-decay of 232U isotope achieved by exposure of its aqueous solution with gold nanoparticles to laser radiation
    A.V. Simakin, G.A. Shafeev
    Dec 30 2011
    Experimental results are presented on laser-induced accelerated alpha-decay of Uranium-232 nuclei under laser exposure of Au nanoparticles in aqueous solutions of its salt. It is demonstrated that the decrease of alpha-activity strongly depends on the peak intensity of the laser radiation in the liquid and is highest at several terawatt per square centimeter. The decrease of alpha-activity of the exposed solutions is accompanied by the deviation of gamma-activities of daughter nuclides of Uranium-232 from their equilibrium values. Possible mechanisms of the laser influence on the alpha-activity are discussed on the basis of the amplification of the electric field of laser wave on metallic nanoparticles.

    Deviation from secular equilibrium
    A.V. Simakin, G.A. Shafeev
    Jan 21 2010
    Laser exposure of gold nanoparticles in aqueous solutions of Uranium salt leads to accelerated decay of U238 nuclei and significant deviation from secular equilibrium. The samples demonstrate the enhanced gamma emission in the range of 54 keV during laser exposure.

    Initiation of nuclear reactions under laser irradiation of Au nanoparticles in the aqueous solution of Uranium salt
    A.V. Simakin, G.A. Shafeev
    Dec 01 2009
    Laser exposure of suspension of either gold or palladium nanoparticles in aqueous solutions of UO2Cl2 of natural isotope abundance was experimentally studied. Picosecond Nd:YAG lasers at peak power from 1011 to 1013 W/cm2 at the wavelength of 1064 and 355 nm were used as well as a visible-range Cu vapor laser at peak power of 1010 W/cm2. The composition of colloidal solutions before and after laser exposure was analyzed using atomic absorption and gamma spectroscopy between 0.06 and 1 MeV range of photon energy. A real-time gamma-spectroscopy was used to characterize the kinetics of nuclear reactions during laser exposure. It was found that laser exposure initiated nuclear reactions involving both 238U and 235U nuclei via different channels in H2O and D2O. The influence of saturation of both the liquid and nanoparticles by gaseous H2 and D2 on the kinetics of nuclear transformations was found. Possible mechanisms of observed processes are discussed.

    Initiation of nuclear reactions under laser irradiation of Au nanoparticles in the presence of Thorium aqua-ions
    A.V. Simakin, G.A. Shafeev
    Jun 24 2009
    Initiation of nuclear reactions in Thorium nuclei is experimentally studied under laser exposure of Au nanoparticles suspended in the aqueous solution of Th(NO3)4 (232Th). It is found that the reaction pathway depends in which water, either H2O or D2O, the laser exposure is carried out. Saturation of the liquids (H2O or D2O) with gaseous H2 or D2, respectively, enhances the nuclear reactions under laser exposure allowing their excitation at peak intensity as low as 1010 W/cm2. Enhanced gamma-activity of the probe is observed after the end of laser exposure for several hours.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Skunkworks compact fusion patent – it all works the same way…

    Technological embodiment of what nature does anyway… HUGE CLUE!!!!

    O Day is coming…


    • causal observer

      From the article on the patent: “the CFR could take 11kg of fuel in the form of the hydrogen isotopes deuterium and tritium, and run the reactor for an entire year without needing to stop…Throughout that time, it would be consistently pumping out 100MW of power, enough to power up to 80,000 homes.”

      • Bob Greenyer

        Certainly sounds more inspiring that ITER

        • Omega Z

          Spoiler Alert.

          Just because they’ve filed a patent doesn’t mean it works or will work. NASA, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, all these entities file patents on every project and detail they invest R&D in. Should they run into a dead end, any who should pick up where they left off years later may find an answer. This allows them to have their finger in the pie. A means to recover some or all the millions they already had invested. Universities do this as well. If you build from their beginnings, they want a piece of it.

          We’ve all seen these entities patent things that never go anywhere and think WTF is that all about. Now you can make sense of them.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Agreed – but the schematic looks like it will work.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Why is this not a small hot fusion wannabe?

      • causal observer

        Looks a lot like one.
        Except that it’s the size of a shipping container versus the size of a basketball court.

        And if it’s “just hot fusion”, then why do we need the chirality of the weak force?

        • Stephen Taylor

          I missed the chirality/weak force reference, is that in the patent information? I’ve been laboring under the (perhaps incorrect) assumption that this is a miniaturized magnetic confinement fusion reactor since I first heard of it. In light of the Satire presentation maybe need to look closer or await clarification.

        • Axil Axil

          In hot fusion, the energy of the reaction is carried by neutrons. Neutrons are problimatic. They produces nuclear wastes and activation.

          In LENR the energy of the reaction is carried by muons the big brother of the electron. There is little or no nuclear waste and no structural nuclear activation. The energy generated per LENR reaction is a hundred times greater per LENR reaction than with hot fusion.

          • causal observer

            Neutrons, indeed. Wonder how Lockheed is dealing with that? “The aircraft can stay aloft indefinitely, until the passengers become radioactive”.

          • Stephen Taylor

            This is the elephant in the room. Funny they don’t seem to mention the beast.

          • causal observer

            “The aircraft can stay aloft indefinitely, except that it can’t take off because of the lead shielding around the reactor.”

            I’m being hard on them. I suspect they have given it some thought.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Yes, they seem to be suggesting this is solved. Maybe it is LENR. Maybe a cousin to SAFIRE.

          • Stephen Taylor

            So, following Axil’s link to the drive.com article and video, it appears certain this is “miniaturized hot fusion wannabe”. From a digram in the article “blanket absorbs neutrons to breed fuel and transfer heat to turbines”. This isn’t even aneutronic p+b11 as Lawrenceville Plasma Physics is well along with developing.


      • Bob Greenyer

        It is. but it is the geometry that caught my eye.

    • Axil Axil

      This is a hot fusion reactor.


      IMHO, The magnetic bottle as impedimentd in this hot fusion reactor is a requirement in any build of a high performance reactor.

      • causal observer

        Seems like the trick is the multi-layer magnetic confinement. If that really works, then the conventional hot fusion folk will be burning over this (ha ha).

        Needs a layman’s explanation of how the multi-layer magnetic confinement actually works. Reminds me of SAPHIRE, except Lockheed seems to be forcing it, while in SAPHIRE it happens automagically.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Automagically, nice.😉

    • causal observer
    • Rene

      Hopefully soon. You are Rossifying your presentation with all the staging announcements.


      • Axil Axil

        To come up with a complete theory for LENR is no mean feat. A comprehensible description of the LENR reaction directed to the least among us requires a lot of work to formulate and made intelligible.

        These staging announcements come with trial explanations. If you are impatient for information, it might serve you well to go back and reread and review all the many videos and posts used to try out the experiment analysis and associated theory posted here and the MFMP blog.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Did you read the last blog I worked as a volunteer for weeks over?

        When have you ever seen Rossi produce such a piece of research or share such personal insights without first seeking protection?

        Did I really have lots of staging announcements before publishing that?

        Yes it is itself part of an on-going narrative building towards ‘O Day’, but I don’t want to find myself explaining myself on an individual basis? I wish to refer back to blocks of work already done. Whilst I may get slide in ‘O Day’ because I have lived its, I realised that a whole series of what would appear as ‘take my word for it’ summary slides would never cut it – I want to be able to add links to materials already produced – sure, I could not say anything for the next x months, but the progressive approach helps me understand what might need to be added and also gives interested parties he opportunity to read around and challenge the information presented.

        When I see something that is very likely based on the same phenomenon, I am drawing attention to the specific aspect that has caught my eye and immediately putting it into the public domain for consideration.

        I have waited over 40 years to find out why certain elements appear in certain places on earth, something that I first read at the age of 5 in Encyclopedia Brittannica. For me, the answer cannot come soon enough – so I understand your frustration.

  • Since Adamenko started learning the Soviet method for Cold Nuclear Transmutation in 1958 and conducted the largest ever man-year research program at ‘Proton-21’ in Ukraine at a lab that was for decades employing 600 people to make isotopes, if he reports observing super-massive stable nuclei, I am not in a good position to argue with his determination

    • Bob Greenyer


  • AdrianAshfield

    Thank you for a MOST interesting discussion.
    Would it be possible to analyze a sample of the Kanthal wire from a cooler portion of the LION to confirm the original composition?

    • Bob Greenyer

      Bob Higgins has suggested dissolving fully some original wire in acid and then letting some of the mixed material dry out before EDS testing. We need to establish as a group what method to best use. This will remove doubts about localisation. We can do it with Raw wire, wire that was in reactor but seemingly unaffected and sections of more affected wire.

  • gerold.s

    Hi bob, thanks for this interesting post and video.
    Q: did you mention the role of the actual LION fuel? What would be its influence on the (accidential?) transmute of CR to MN & FE? Would a modification of LION fuel (diamond diapads) by adding CR powder be the right approach?

    • Bob Greenyer

      Hi Gerold – first, the several approaches to verification should be pursued, we must look at the outstanding questions fully. Some work can be done with the ash we have, Other work can be done with experiment by ourselves and LION. Due to the Stanstead fire, we were unable to hand-over a suitable alpha/beta/gamma detector – but this will follow.

      The data from Hutchison suggest that more bulk material may be suitable. Powder has too many impedance changes – Wire is actually quite good, since it has a lot of electrically connected mass for ‘infection’ of the active agent without impedance miss-match problems and lots of both volume and surface. NiChrome wire is cheap and may be one option.

      The analysis of LION is step by step – LION fuel potential mechanism will be addressed in due course – there is more to explore in the ash – each study points to things we can look for in further rounds of analysis.

  • Anon2012_2014

    For Bob and Alan Smith: a few simple questions.

    1) Do you have a diagram and schematic for a LION reactor so we can understand how it is suppose to work?

    2) Is there any excess heat or other energy produced by a LION reactor. If so, how much, i.e. how much power for how long? How do you measure this excess heat or other energy?

    Thank you.

    • Axil Axil

      Lest we forget, I know that LION 1 produced at least 36,000 joules of direct electric power after the reactor was cooled.

      • Anon2012_2014

        How much energy was needed to get that 36 kJ out? Note: 36kJ = 10 watt-hours. If it was more than 5 watts, it would be clearly above noise.

        • Axil Axil

          This 5 watt comparison is an improper way to recon COP. The dummy reactor did not produce this electric output even through it received the same input power. So the differential is 10 watt hours.

    • Alan Smith


      The reactor doesn’t produce any excess energy, it’s basically just a simple tube furnace with heat provided by electricity. Excess heat from LENR fuel inside one of the ports is measured by comparing the one port with another. Roughly speaking in the 800C-1000C zone we expect to see a 10C temperature increase in the ‘fuelled’ port temperature for every 3 watts of heat energy produced by the fuel.

      If you want to know a little more about the reactor itself, I suggest you watch this video.

      • Anon2012_2014

        1) By excess heat, I believe that I mean excess temperature on the test “tube” vs. the control tube, i.e. 10 watts/3 C = 3.3 watts/degree. Do you or LION or anyone else yet report excess heat or temperature rise on the test tube side?

        2) Alan, your 7 minute video is excellent — straight and to the point. I am assuming that is you narrating the video. Thank you. You are doing good work.

        3) I believe the items in the center of the tube are the LION cores complete with diadisks diamonds. I assume that they are identical and our electrically stimulated in the same manner if you use some kind of electrical stimulation to get them to make excess heat. I believe what Bob is trying to do is to publicly demonstrate a setup that makes excess heat. Am I correct?


        Bob is right that transmutations would prove that _something_ is happening here, i.e. new physics. Excess heat makes it more interesting to me. To use an analogy, I know that anti-matter exists from pair particle/anti-particle production experiments. However, the tiny amounts involved doesn’t make this useful . Even 3 watts of excess heat would prove that we are on the right trail towards making a useful experiment.

        • Alan Smith

          LION has reported excess heat lasting for many hours. I have no solid data as to ‘how much’. Your calculation above is not quite correct, the figure is 0.33W/DegC.at high temperatures (700C+), it drops to 0.25W/DegC at 100C. I have yet to take more data points on this aspect.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Good answer. That is what I am trying to find out. I wait now for Bob’s experiment, yours, and the other Alan’s to confirm the excess temperature rise (i.e. excess heat).

        • Axil Axil

          If some simple additional design is added to the LION reactor, then the energy expended by the LENR reaction in particle creation could be captured and converted to heat and catalyzed fusion.

          For example, the LION reactor is covered in copper wire as a spacer. That wire could be used to implement a magnetic bottle that would keep the particles produced by the LENR reaction inside the reactor until they decay or produce catalyzed fusion.

          The LENR reaction produces very little energy as heat. Most of the energy generates particles as witnessed by the generation of 10 watt hours of electrons in the LION 1 reactor. That is a lot of electrons and a lot of energy.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Axil — I am indifferent (i.e. neutral; don’t care) to the type of energy being created. I just would like to prove more energy out than energy in by say 20% and 5 watts. That’s enough to be sure we have something with economic promise.

          • Anon2012_2014

            And also Axil please note the following:
            1) Electric output is to be preferred to heat as that is generally the highest value (utility) goal (i.e. electric generation) of the Ecat style small scale devices.
            2) Magnetic confinement of charged particles for any length of timer requires more engineering than just winding some wire around the non-vacuum LION reactor component. The interaction of the charged particles with non-vacuum molecules will cause a loss of energy from the charged particles to the gas; thus preventing long charged particle confinement times. If instead the storage zone is pumped down to say 1e-8 Torr by a diffusion pump or similar, there is a chance that the stored particles in an appropriately designed magnetic field can survive without collision with a gas molecule within your proposed magnetic bottle.

          • Axil Axil

            The particle of concern is the muon. To get a duration for confinement that will get the muon to decay is 10 microseconds. collisions of muons with gas molecules is desired. Such interaction may produce muon catalyzed fusion inside the reactor where the energy of that fusion can be captured.

            When muons decay, they produce electrons. So the more muons that can be confined, the more electrical power will be generated by the reactor.

            The proper design of a magnetic bottle will reproduce am increased COP based on how efferent the bottle design becomes.


          • Anon2012_2014

            Axil — good hypothesis. I am guessing the likely reaction is H+H muon fusion:

            H1+H1+???keV -> He2

            He2 -> D2 + e + v + 1.67 MeV

            Exactly how much the muons would lower the barrier; and where the muons come from, are open questions.

          • Axil Axil
          • Anon2012_2014

            Thank you Axil. Too complicated for me (many components, most of which I would need to spend days refreshing on), but looks like it might lead to a solution to energy production. If we can get positive energy production validated, or if we can get significant transmutation validated, there may be funding to develop the physics behind it. Good work.

          • Da Phys

            @Axil if you assume that the muons come from the weak decay of ultra-dense hydrogen then mesons, such muons would be relativistic and the chance to get muon-driven fusion in gas molecules is nill. Also, as shown in Holmlid’s latest paper, most muons appear very far from the reactor because most relativistic kaons and pions decay into muons far from the reactor.

            The goal should be to capture the mesons and just forget these muons. Silver would be good for that. And funny enough, in the word meshuggenon we have huggen 🙂

          • Axil Axil

            The muons don’t come from the ultra-dense hydrogen, they come from the matter that is excavated from the triangular shaped holes that are seen in the structural material that the ultra-dense hydrogen passes over.

            Holmlid detects what mesons are produced by measuring their decay times using an oscilloscope. This tells me that the mesons have very little speed. The mesons decay inside of Holmlid’s experiment. They are not traveling at light speed. Because Holmlid can time their decay, they are very slow.

            There is a good chance that all these very slow mesons and their decay products can be kept inside the reactor core.

            Another indicator of slow particle speeds is the fact that the LION reactor has produced 10 watt hours of electrons which is the final decay produce of muons decay. That is a lot of electrons and by implication, a lot of muons

          • Da Phys

            Let’s cite Holmlid: “Relativistic charged particles with velocity up to 500 MeV u-1 thus 0.75 c are observed. Theoretical predictions of the decay chains from kaons to muons in the particle beam agree with the results.”

          • Axil Axil


            The solar wind proton ejection mechanism: Experiments with ultradense hydrogen agree with observed velocity distributions

            Holmlid has identified those 500 MeV particles as protons.

            “Coulomb explosions in H(0) in spin state s = 1 generate protons with kinetic energies larger than the retaining gravitational energy at the photosphere of the Sun.”

            The mechanism that produces these high energy particles are Coulomb explosions of clusters. This mechanism is different than the weak force decay mechanism.

            This is how I beleive this works…

            The Ultra dense hydrogen (UDH) molecule accumulates energy as it catalyzes weak force nucleon decay. Over time, the magnitude of the accumulated energy content of these UDH crystals can be reckoned in the GeV energy range. This energy store has been calculated from photo emulsion tracks as a function of path length. When the energy storage capacity of energy stored in the UDH reaches maximum, the UDH explodes and the GeV levels of stored kinetic energy is imparted to the protons that form the core of the UHD molecule.

          • Da Phys

            Axil, you make things up.

            You say: “Holmlid has identified those 500 MeV particles as protons”.

            On the contrary, with regard to these 500 MeV particles, in
            Holmlid states : “The ejected mass is here found by magnetic deflection to be less than unity but much larger than the electron mass. At least two different masses are observed, which agrees with the particles being light mesons. The particle decay times observed agree very well with this conclusion.”

            Why come up with an overly complex explanation when a simpler one exists and that the latter is confirmed by experiments?

          • Axil Axil

            Regarding: “Axil, you make things up.”

            I am just proposing a theory based on Holmlid’s remarks on the origin of the solar wind.

            If a huge amout of energy is produces by the decy of the mesons, how can that energy be captured when the partilces are leasving the core of the reactor at ,75C?

            One way to capture this energy that are carried by these high speed particles is to surround the core with a blanket of thorium based molten salts that is thick enough to intercept most of these outgoing particles. The heat content of this molten salt can be extracted by a heat exchanger.

          • Da Phys

            I agree that energy harvesting is an important challenge assuming that relativistic mesons are the “strange radiations” of LENR as Holmlid’s work strongly suggests.

            Thorium based molten salts is an interesting idea. Another solution is a blanket of a conductive heavy metal such as silver. In both cases, interestingly, rather than disambling today’s nuclear reactors, they could be recycled as LENR ones at low cost.

          • can

            From what I’ve read, according to Holmlid a large portion of the MeV-energy particle flux is due to neutral particles (neutral kaons or large UDH fragments acting as neutral particles) decaying within a relatively short distance (about 60-70 cm, at least in a vacuum) from the target into charged mesons and muons.

            Wouldn’t this make harvesting such energy more difficult and render the blanket material choice less obvious, at least for small-scale experimental devices?

          • Da Phys

            It is still not clear to me whether UDH decays at its original location because of the laser shot, or that it decays at a relatively short distance – for whatever reason – with the laser shot just decomposing the UDH clusters in smaller ones, the latter still having keV-MeV energy (but not in the hundreds of MeV that can only happens through the weak decay of UDH).

            Of course, this would define how and where energy should be harvested, as you suggest.

            I still like this idea of a decay chain UDH -> mesons -> muons, however the exact effect of the laser still remains unknown to me.

          • can

            It could be both. Holmlid proposes that such small UDH fragments are not stable and decay soon after being ejected from the rest of the layer.

            Source: http://dx.doi.org/10.1142/S0218301315500809

            In his latest paper he proposes that the neutron background signal of his laboratory (when the laser isn’t used) is due to muons (by muon capture processes) eventually produced from the neutral kaons that the ultradense material supposedly spontaneously emits.

            Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323622063_Neutrons_from_Muon-Catalyzed_Fusion_and_Muon-Capture_Processes_in_an_Ultradense_Hydrogen_H0_Generator


          • Axil Axil

            The decay mode of the tachyon is the generation of hadrons (mesons)…Hadrons are viewed as being composed of quarks, either as quark-antiquark pairs (mesons).

            The UDH is a quasi-particle…a analog black hole tachyon. String theory predicts this meson generating behavior as a decay mechanism.


            The Inside Story:
            Quasilocal Tachyons and Black Holes


            Page 19…

            “In the example discussed in x2.1, the dual field theory description of the quasilocal tachyon condensation is a time-dependent transition to a confining dual gauge theory. Although confinement is not explicitly understood in Yang-Mills theory, in such a transition one qualitatively expects the following dynamics. In the confined theory, the gauge-invariant composite glueballs arise at an energy and size scale commensurate with the strong coupling scale of the field theory. In our time dependent transition, the excitations in the tachyon phase correspond to field theoretic modes at an energy scale below
            the mass gap. From the dual field theory point of view we expect forces from flux tubes to dynamically force them to shrink toward the size scale of the glueballs in the confining theory. The forces we analyzed in this section, which act to force excitations into the bulk gravitational solution dual to the confining geometry, may provide a gravity-side manifestation of this phenomenon. This effect is similar in some ways to the description of black
            hole evaporation via hadronization in [18].”

          • Axil Axil

            Regarding: “however the exact effect of the laser still remains unknown to me”

            The laser pulse generates the KERR effect.

            There are claims that LENR extracts energy from the vacuum. The question naturally arises about how can such an improbable thing possibly happen.

            A experiment done using a optical cavity shows how the vacuum can tap into the vacuum fluctuations that occur in empty space to produce real effects.


            Dynamical Casimir effect in a Josephson metamaterial

            This experiment shows how an optical cavity can be tuned electrically using the KERR effect in such a way to convert virtual photons into real photons through the adjustment of the index of refraction of the vacuum in the cavity to produce a resonance based casimir effect.

            The KERR effect is a mechanism to adjust the speed of light in the vacuum so that the cavity can be modified into a resonance condition in such a way as to use the casimir effect to extract real photons from the vacuum.

            This KERR effect adjustment mechanism might be operable in LENR as well as the EMDRIVE.

            The zero-point energy stored in the modes of an electromagnetic
            cavity has experimentally detectable effects, giving rise to an
            attractive interaction between the opposite walls, the static Casimir effect. A dynamical version of this effect was predicted to occur when the vacuum energy is changed either by moving the walls of the cavity or by changing the index of refraction, resulting in the conversion of vacuum fluctuations into real photons. Here, we demonstrate the dynamical Casimir effect using a Josephson metamaterial embedded in a microwave cavity at 5.4 GHz. We modulate the effective length of the cavity by flux-biasing the metamaterial based on superconducting quantum interference devices (SQUIDs), which results in variation of a few percentage points in the speed of light. We extract the full 4 × 4 covariance matrix of the emitted microwave radiation, demonstrating that photons at frequencies symmetrical with respect to half of the modulation frequency are generated in pairs. At large detunings of the cavity from half of the modulation frequency, we find power spectra that clearly show the theoretically predicted hallmark of the Casimir effect: a bimodal, “sparrow-tail” structure. The observed substantial photon flux cannot be assigned to parametric amplification of thermal fluctuations; its creation is a direct consequence of the noncommutativity structure of quantum field theory.


            Not-quite-so elementary, my dear electron

            Fundamental particle ‘splits’ into quasiparticles, including the new ‘orbiton’.

            In order to understand what the EVO really is, we must understand what the plasmoid is. That also means we must understand what the electron is in solid state physics.

            The electron can be split into three separate parts called quasiparticles: a ‘spinon’ carrying its spin (an intrinsic quantum property related to magnetism), a ‘holon’ carrying the electron’s charge, and an ‘orbiton’ carrying its orbital location.

            When a plasmoid forms not all of these electron parts are confined inside the plasmoid. Only the spinon goes into the structure of the plasmoid. The holon and orbiton remain connected to the Exciton which is the the mother of the polariton.



            The Spinon and the photon combine together into the polariton soliton. The main part of the electron is still confined to the metal in which the exciton formed. The spin is confined in the plasmoid where no electron charge or orbital complications are at play. Those behaviors of the electron are still associated with the exciton that can be far removed from the mobile plasmoid in terms of distance.

            The plasmoid starts out using heat photons to form polaritons, but these polaritons can increase in energy by increasing the frequency of the original heat photons to visible light and beyond into the x-ray range at the high end.

            But without the activation signal that produces the KERR effect, there exists two counter rotating spin currents in the plasmoid, one clockwise and the other counterclockwise. Spin also has a north and south pole and at this initial point so does the polariton soliton.

            But what the activation signal produces is a soliton with only one magnetic pole, a monopole. This change in the nature of the spin inside the soliton is caused by a change in the index of refraction of the VACUUM in the space that the soliton occupies. This change of state in the optical properties of the vacuum combines the two counter rotating spin currents into a single monopole current.


            It is this huge magnetic field produced by the combined spins of many electrons and photons that produces a disruptive effect on the nature of matter as the source of LENR based energy. Without that activation signal, the spin of the soliton is weak and the associated LENR reaction is also weak. But with the activation signal, the strength of the spin becomes strong and so does the associated LENR effect.

          • Axil Axil

            See post below…

            Application of the KERR effect

            A characteristic of the stimulus that can be distilled from the Fabiani quotes is that the stimulus is EMF field based. Study of the KERR effect reveals how its behavior is instructive in how LENR behaves including self sustaining mode.


            The DC Kerr effect, is the special case in which a slowly varying external electric field is applied by, for instance, a voltage on electrodes across the sample material. Polariton lifetimes are measured in picoseconds or at most microseconds. The polariton soliton must be restimulated after it comes into existence so that it can reach optimum power projection. Polaritons are not in equilibrium with new polaritons replacing dead ones on a short timescale. The electrostatic activation field must be constant in order to sustain the polariton at nominal power levels.

            In the optical or AC Kerr effect, an intense beam of light in a medium can itself provide the modulating electric field, without the need for an external field to be applied. In terms of the LENR reaction, the light produced by the polariton grows so bright, that the KERR field is self stimulating. This situation occurs in self sustain mode where the reaction builds on itself to the point where the light (aka white EVO) that it generates equals in intensity of the power produced by a laser, a self sustaining light level.

            In the Demo, Rossi was running the QX at 30% maximum power. This is achieved by reducing the electrostatic field strength so that the power projection of the polaritons is not optimized. When the QX runs at maximum power, the voltage applied to the electrodes is maximized. So the voltage level that produces the electrostatic field controls the power level of the QX.

            Only under maximum electrostatic stimulation is the self sustain condition reached. But there is a danger that the reaction will become supercritical when running in self sustain mode. This is the meltdown condition.

            Rossi protects against meltdown in the QX because the solid metal nanoparticles that support the polariton of entangled electron dipole motion is vaporized at high temperature, This kills all the polaritons in the QX. When the temperature of the plasma becomes low enough for metal nanoparticles to reform, then the LENR reaction can be reestablished. In this way the QX is passively protected from meltdown because its structure is beyond the meltdown temperature of the metal reactant (aluminum).

          • gerold.s

            Is the structure of the QX also boron nitrid? Do you have an idea what the “metal nano particles” = fuel? consist of? You say Al is an reactant. What would the transmutation equation be?

          • Axil Axil

            Regarding: “Is the structure of the QX also boron nitrid? ”

            This is my best guess: a transparent insulator that has a melting point greater that 3000C.

            Regarding: “Do you have an idea what the “metal nano particles” = fuel? consist of?”

            Rossi produces fuel in an off line process. He says that he uses .3 grams of this as fuel. Rossi must be the producing Ultra dense hydrogen or ultra dense lithium.

            Regarding: “You say Al is an reactant. What would the transmutation equation be?”

            Rossi uses lithium aluminum hydrate in his fuel preparation process, The aluminum is carried over from the fuel preperation process. Rossi will not reveal what transmutations he is seeing.

        • Axil Axil

          Raffaele Bongo
          April 2, 2018 at 10:50 AM

          Hello A. Rossi

          I understand that your technology is evolving exponentially. It is difficult for you to imagine today what will be the definitive characteristics of the E-Cat 1 MW. There is still a trend that is emerging. It was probably less bulky and lighter.

          Do you have an idea of ​​the shielding weight / total weight ratio and the power per unit mass and volume of the E-Cat boiler?

          Tough wishes for success and all the best for your team

          Your support Raffaele

          Andrea Rossi
          April 2, 2018 at 1:31 PM

          Raffaele Bongo:

          IN OUR CASE THE SHIELDING IS LIGHT, because we do not use radioactive materials and our radiations are not ionizing, due to the low energy inside our Ecat.

          In all the experiments we made ( tens of thousand hours now, with me as the Guinea pig ), we never found ionizing radiations exit the Ecats.

          Warm Regards,


          I am surprised that Rossi is so revealing of his IP. He must think that his QX technology is so beyond our understanding that he can now be free to let the cat out of the bag.

          I beleive that containment of particles is the key to produce a high COP. These particles need time to decay and release their energy. If they are not contained, then the energy (based on E=MC^2) is lost to the far field.

          Rossi has described the flow of charged particles in the plasma in the QX where particles migrate to opposite ends of the plasma. They must be migrating to the associated oppositely charged electrodes.

          These particles must accumulate at the oppositely charged electrodes and decay there. Or just as effective, the particles could be moving back and forth between the electrodes as impelled by the RF signal. This may be how Rossi is producing those huge COP values.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Reading Rossi is like trying to interpret a fortune teller — their story is anything that you wish to make of it. I Axil am done reading Rossi until he releases real machines into the environment. I don’t believe there is much information value in reading his tea leaves. Sorry, but my opinion is different than yours. I still respect you opinion, but Rossi — I finished with him after Lugano.

  • georgehants

    Morning Bob, I put the below on an old page, ask again here, understanding all the technical work occurring with Lion etc. on “O” day, allowing for all the other realisations, do you
    think there will be enough information to confirm Clod Fusion and for MFMP and others to quickly
    be able to start to build devices of a practicle nature?

    • Bob Greenyer

      What I have learnt in the past 18 months is that what may at first seem a failure, may not actually be that – for instance, the SEM already shared of the first NOVA ash analysis was critical as was the *pattern* of effects in ECCO fuel.

      The real barrier is good experimentalists able to conduct experiments. Alan Goldwater is preparing a very good experiment, more on that later today.

      • georgehants

        Many thanks, puts all the comments on page into perspective, very sad to know that our Warmongering leaders and possibly one other person, have probably had many of the answers for years, but helping people is of course the last thing on their minds.

  • Alan Smith

    “I would be surprised if the bolt sealing the open end of the alumina tube lacked iron.” – Lion uses electro-zinced mild steel.bolts.

    • Pink Panther

      Wasn’t LION’s reactor vacuum-sealed? I seem to remember Bob mentioning there was a rushing sound the moment the lamp was inserted into one end of the reactor.
      Would vacuum-sealing make any difference to the properties of the reactor, e.g. the way the deuterium would be adsorbed (if that’s the correct term) within the lattice of the diamonds?

      • Alan Smith

        No- definitely not vacuum sealed- I have discussed that very carefully with LION.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Hi Bruce_H,

    This is a useful contribution, thank you, should serve me right trying to get something out the door before Easter for other people when my gut tells me I should just take my time – however, this is the whole point of open research, other people can point the bleeding obvious out!

    I do say that I don’t know where the fragments come from and try to be very clear about what needs to be analysed to add more data for consideration.

    The non-magnetically separated and live-on-camera separated magnetic fragments analysed here came from the part of the reactor that did not contain the bolt, however physical movement may be a factor prior to it coming into my possession. Given the size of the fragments and number of them, it will be interesting to see if there is any degradation of the bolt to account for the Iron/Manganese flakes. Given that iron has a higher melting point than Nickel, it will be interesting to know if the bolt has been degraded, the zinc layer migration will be unsurprising, however, there were no traces of Zinc detected in any of these flakes – of course, zinc boils at 907ºC.

    I am not in the same country as the reactor, when I am, I will need to physically break it to examine the end of the bolt and see if there is any evidence of material loss. The bolt material will also be analysed in due course for manganese. You can see an SEM from the first look at LION 1 attached.

    LION would never have been as interesting as it is, had Alan Goldwater not spotted the strange radiation track, and we captured 3 weeks later the beautiful images attached below. Knowing from the work of Adamenko that Strange Radiation goes hand in hand with large scale transmutation makes these seemingly extraordinary transmutation observations harder to immediately dismiss. Having had an ECW contributor spot a Strange Radiation track in the quartz of LION 2 in optical photography really helped to cement the view that this is a special experiment.



  • georgehants

    Public Release: 2-Apr-2018
    Finding order in disorder demonstrates a new state of matter
    LOS ALAMOS, N.M., April 2, 2018–Physicists have identified a new state
    of matter whose structural order operates by rules more aligned with
    quantum mechanics than standard thermodynamic theory. In a classical
    material called artificial spin ice, which in certain phases appears
    disordered, the material is actually ordered, but in a “topological”

  • Bob Greenyer

    Hi Bruce_H, I am saying that precisely. It made no sense to me then, a big breakthrough came for me when I first heard Alberto Carpinteri report on his extension of the Soviet work. Then learning that Cu comes from Volcanoes as does helium and helium is in gas wells all got me thinking.

  • Bob Greenyer

    LION – Alan Goldwater’s MFMP independent replication : data acquisition test / calibration


  • Alan Smith

    The Model T was designed as an MVS – a minimum viable system with an emphasis on safety. The whole idea was low cost, low voltage, and adaptability. A ‘petri dish’ for screening fuel mixes which can be updated and elaborated as much as anyone might want. It was designed as part of an attempt to crowd-source a simple and reliable LENR system by making the tools to do the job readily available. My idea was to recreate some of the spirit of the early days of wireless transmission, when most of the significant advances were made by ‘men in sheds.’ Sadly, it seems that many of the younger generation lack the practical skills of previous generations, which means the pool of active experimenters is very small, far outnumbered by those who are more interested in heating up an arnchair than in lighting up a home-brew reactor.

    There is, btw, an intermittent DC electromagnetic field inside the ports, induced by the solenoid-form heater coils, and when running at the set temperature the PID will create and collapse this field 30 times a minute. I have also experimented with other stimulus methods, including high voltage glow discharge inside the fuel tubes and so on. While I have not seen any positive results, it seems I do have a couple of reactor clients (including LION) who have. My own experience of seeing LENR effects and the associated radiation etc are still confined to those occurring in low-temperature wet systems, details of which I have published already.

    • Roger Barker

      Hi Alan, can you please advise on the method of calorimetry you’ve used for your LION?

      • Alan Smith

        Relative thermometric calorimetry.

  • Alan Smith

    Hi Bruce. Your thinking is correct. It is best to use the PID to control the temperature of the ‘active port’. In that situation when there is XSH from the fuelled tube in that port, the PID switches in less often or not at all, in which case the temperature of the control port drops rapidly- the heater coils in both ports are wired in series. This amplifies any effect -makes the system more sensitive to even modest XSH from the fuelled tube.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Watching for “T_null” to drop is right. Of course, in this case, both sides are actually “T_null” because there is no “fuel” in either side. This is a long duration control run in preparation for a later attempt at replication.

  • magicsnd1

    The “T NaI” data is the temperature at the spectrometer head. It’s needed in case any gamma emission above ambient is detected. As we found in the Glowstick series, the NaI spectrometer energy measurement drifts with temperature of the crystal, so knowing the temperature enables more accurate detection of a possible reaction signature.

    Stephen T noted correctly that this is a long-duration calibration and system test, before the fuel is inserted. Results are good so far, though the thermocouple pairs are diverging a bit, starting around 500°C. That suggests that the error bars will be around ±5°C for this system at 800°C

  • Bob Greenyer

    Hugs all round.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Should be the temperature of the sodium iodide crystal head that helps with accounting for thermal drift.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Something will happen.

  • Bob Greenyer

    both options are something. In this field, you need to keep your expectations low – but LOOK at the data repeatedly after doing runs.

  • Bob Greenyer

    AFAIK The system can produce excess heat, excess cooling (time separated), transmutation, particle and photon beams, intense light and related cold electricity (amongst other things).

    Sowing, stimulation, maintenance and harvesting at the right times through control is what will give people what they want.

    • John Oman

      Where does one connect the positive and negative wires to collect the ‘cold electricity’…???

      • Bob Greenyer

        To something less electro-negative.

  • Ged

    Absolutely, 100% agreed.

  • Stephen Taylor

    The plotly graphs and data work pretty good with my laptop, but mostly I use a tablet (android) where it is difficult to navigate. Good to know this before the fun begins.

  • Alan Smith

    As part of our current series of calibration tests, Russ George has come up with an ‘Ohmic Heater’ – a little resistance heater fitted inside a standard fuel tube. This has its own dedicated power supply, and is known to be capable of producing anything between 1 and 40 watts of steady heat (as you wish) ‘on demand’. The original inspiration for this method of calorimetric measurement was (apparently) Mitch Schwarz.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Thanks Peter, just following the evidence – sure I’ll be wrong at times, but when there is merit, the material is out in the open for others to build on – I feel privileged that the project has acquired so many samples from the field to investigate so that we can draw comparisons at a time when new ways of looking at things are becoming possible.

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