Defkalion Reports Successful Conclusion of Tests with Government Officials

Defklaion Green Technologies have just posted a short statement regarding their testing.

Tests with the presence of high level Government officials have been concluded. Opinions and results were very positive.

Announcements will be made upon mutual agreements, at a time yet to be defined.

Tests continue with international Authorities in the coming weeks.

DGT

So very little detail, but the description of “very positive” results and opinions makes it sounds like the testing was successful and the objectives were met. There will no doubt be a call from many people who are following this event closely for more information to be released as soon as possible, but the tone of this statement seems to indicate that it may take a while before we hear much more about what happened. Most likely NDAs are in force and there might be a lot to discuss before more details are made public.

  • Andrew Macleod

    The waiting game continues….

  • daniel maris

    Pathetic – a real insult to all those who have wished them well and defended them against Dick Smith and others.

    It doesn’t matter whether they have a genuine device or not, no one will buy one if that is the way they treat their potential customers.

    Really, there is no point in them having a forum if they are not going to engage with people.

    • Warthog

      Give it time. If you remember the original protocol, the test itself requires FOUR DAYS to complete. So today is the very earliest that COMPLETE information would be available, even to Defkalion and any participating observers.

      • daniel maris

        They have given previous promises of pre-announcement and videos. They failed on both. That is pathetic. It’s for Defkalion to make good on their promises. It’s not a question of patience.

        • Ged

          This is true.

          We can’t jump to conclusions without a statement from the Greek government. It’s possibly they are taking their time to digest and prepare an official release. We all know how slow governments can be.

          But dang, what a buzz kill.

          Anyone know Greek and want to write a few e-mails? I’ll gladly work with them to design the content here on the forum.

          • daniel maris

            Use Google translate for the Greek. 🙂

            One odd thing – given the Monday was a bank holiday in Greece is it plausible that government officials turned out on a bank holiday? Would be unlikely in the UK (not to disparage UK civil service – they work hard but NOT usually on bank holidays).

  • psi

    It is good to hear something, even if it’s not what we want to hear. Warthog’s point, however, is well taken. A little patience would behoove us. Hopefully more concrete details will be available soon.

  • Tim

    Yeah, right..

    I’d pay attention had the (acclaimed) gov’t agent reported that, instead of Defkalion.

    • psi

      So, you’re saying that you don’t think more details will be available shortly? Or just that you are a cynic?

    • Ged

      Agreed. Arg, I was so excited to get a substantial report!

      Alas, now we have to go bug the greek government to find out if it’ll confirm or deny Defkalion’s report.

      Who here speaks modern Greek and is willing to send some e-mails?

  • morse

    Maybe those government officials can sell the technology to some oil producing countries. In that way Greece will have no more money problems !

    • sapain

      then rossi crashes the oil market.

  • Stephen

    Bla bla bla… please wake me up when there is something real…

  • ostap

    Normally inventors show their products in all its glory as soon as possible. Defkalion are playing games. Rossi is playing games. Its been too long. They are stinky rotting rats, lying fraudsters trying to steal someone’s money! This is a game called: “We have the mega technology, it’s under NDA, sneaky dumbs invest your money to as!”

  • Skeptic

    No names, no results, no promises…
    Read the message, there is NOTHING you can check or pin down.

    The message is suggestive – Government Officials, that sounds credible! So the e-cat must be real!

    But focus on what is NOT said: Names, dates, results, fact you can check – NOTHING substantial.

    Who are these ‘Government Officials’? A traffic agent and a junior tax inspector?
    What background do they have? What are their names?

    ‘Defkalion’ (another word for: Rossi) might as well claim to have demonstrated their e-cat (sorry, hyper-thing) to aliens from Alpha Centauri.

    It’s a good thing Rossi is not on Twitter or we would be discussing his daily shoppings as mind-blowing e-cat news (‘No more milk. Must buy milk’).

    Face it people. NOTHING substantial, just the implicite invitation to read this as credible evidence.

    • Mümmelmann

      After a critical comment in the forum they have banned me, that says all.
      In my opinion, they haven’t anything, it’s a big scam.

    • Roger Bird

      skeptic wrote: “Face it people. NOTHING substantial, just the implicite invitation to read this as credible evidence.” Not so, skeptic. Unlike patho-skeptics, the sane among us here neither believe nor disbelieve. The sane know that the Defkalion report is unconfirmed and therefore we are still in uncertainty.

    • Ged

      We won’t know the truth till the Greek government confirms or denies. So, no jumping to conclusions either way.

      I too am disappointed by the lack of information in this release; but it makes sense if the real report is being written for release by the Greek government. That takes time.

      So… I guess we should go bug the Greeks to tell us if they really did a test with Defkalion or not.

  • High hope about Ni/H Lenr System confirmed.
    Successful of Defkalion Ni/H LENR -CF system last 24 Feb
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/defkalion-reports-successful-conclusion-of-tests-with-government-officials/

    Sent from my iPhone

  • Andrew Macleod

    New article. Nothing new but it’s nice to hear an accurate report.

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-02/27/rossi-roundup?page=2

  • rocky

    Can some one tell me where Defkalion Green is located ?

    • dragon

      Why? Do you have a plan or something … to get info from them faster ?

      • edog

        Im totally up for raiding the place.

  • Still only one person on record who has ever even seen a defkalion product, and that is the green on from their “spec sheet”.

    I like to hope though. I certainly believe in LENR so maybe…

    • Ged

      We know LENR works. But do we know LENR works at the levels they are saying (COP 20)?

      We need something more substantial than this release. Time to cry havoc and bug these people.

      • From my understanding the LENR reaction can be amplified to much higher temperatures. The problems seem to arise in trying to keep the reaction stable. It has grown to heats of 1455 degrees Celsius and melted the Nickel and has caused pressure explosions.

        The hard part about believing Rossi or Defkalion is that they say they can control the reaction. Let’s just hope this is true.

  • PersonFromPorlock

    And so the game goes on, with the gullible telling themselves “They couldn’t be that obvious….”

    • Roger Bird

      PersonFromPorlock, I probably don’t agree with you about being a patho-skeptic, but I agree with your idea above. When I get independent confirmation from the government officials or any other testers, then I will believe it. Although my heart is greatly encouraged by this report, my head is still waiting for confirmation.

      • Ged

        A statement from the Greek government alone is what we need. We need them to verify this, and verify the veracity of the results.. then we need the hard data for ourselves to evaluate.

        I hope these games finally wrap up with this. I was really looking forward to more than something like this statement.

        Le sigh.

  • Fluffy

    Rossi’s Possible Tungsten Line at 8.31 keV

    In Andrea Rossi’s original patent application

    http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/detailPdf.jsf?ia=IT2008000532&docIdPdf=id00000009056757&name=%28WO2009125444%29METHOD%20AND%20APPARATUS%20FOR%20CARRYING%20OUT%20NICKEL%20AND%20HYDROGEN%20EXOTHERMAL%20REACTIONS&woNum=WO2009125444&prevRecNum=1&nextRecNum=2&recNum=1&queryString=&office=&sortOption=&prevFilter=&maxRec=

    there are two charts that show the results of an XRF (X-ray fluorescence)spectrum analysis on a sample of used powder from an E-Cat unit that had been in operation for an undisclosed period of time. Although many of the elements found in the analysis are labeled on the chart, one significant “spike” or “line” is not. This anomalous line could possibly be the element tungsten.

    XRF fluorescence works by subjecting the material to be tested to x-rays, that can knock electrons out of their orbit in the atoms of the sample material. When another electron moves in to fill the gap produced by the missing electron, a photon is emitted. By measuring the energy of these photons (in keV or kilo-electron volts) and how many are produced, you can determine the composition of a sample of material. A chart produced using the data from an XRF spectrum analysis will show a spike or line for each element present. When there is very little of an element in a sample of material these spikes will be small, and perhaps hard to distinguish from “noise” or other elements. However, when there is a lot of a specific element in a sample, the spike or line will have a significant amplitude.

    The two charts in Rossi’s patent show many lines, some of which indicate a very significant amount of certain elements. All of the lines that seem to be significant are labeled, except one. If you look at the following chart from his patent you will see that there is one line that is not labeled. This line is between the lines of Nickel and Zinc, and it sits at about 8.3 electron volts.

    There have been a few comments on the web about this graph. The following is from the comments section in a story posted on ecatnews.com.

    http://ecatnews.com/?p=829

    “I went back and counted pixels with MS Paint to do a more thorough job of identifying this component.

    It’s not Copper at all. It’s Tungsten.

    The material is a Ni-W-Zn alloy metal foam.”

    There are also comments on various websites about how Tungsten can behave like a catalyst, and is used in atomic hydrogen torches to separate molecular hydrogen into atomic hydrogen. I remember Rossi stating on his blog that Tungsten is not used in the E-Cat, when asked a question about it. However, after searching his blog at the Journal of Nuclear Physics, I cannot find that comment.

    To try and figure out if the anomalous line in this chart could be Tungsten, I did some digging on the internet. As a non-scientist I did not understand everything. However, I did find out that Tungsten has a keV signature that is close to the 8.3.

    According to a chart on this website http://www.xrfresearch.com/technology/xrf-spectra/182-xrf-spectrum-tungsten.html, one of Tungsten’s possible signatures is 8.39 keV. This is close to 8.31, which is what I calculated by studying the chart from Rossi’s patent. Also, I found a few references to Tungsten having a signature of 8.3 keV.

    It seems like the line between nickel and zinc in the chart could be Tungsten. There are other possibilities, including copper and nickel. However, if that line was copper or nickel, I wonder why it was not labeled? It does not make sense to me that they would not label the line as copper or nickel, if that was the identity of the element. What would make sense to me, is if the element was Tungsten, and they did not label it as such to try and hide the fact Tungsten is used in the powder.

    So if this line is Tungsten, how does it fit into what we know about what we have been told about Rossi’s catalyst?

    1) Tungsten is not a precious metal. This fits what we have been told, that no precious metals are used in the E-Cat.

    2) It has a very high melting point at 3422C which is much higher than the melting point of nickel which is around 1400C. Since we have been told the temperature inside the E-Cat reactor core routinely reaches 1600C, perhaps the addition of Tungsten increases the melting point of the powder inside the E-Cat. Something needs to increase the melting point, because when the nickel melts inside of an E-Cat the reaction sites are destroyed, and the nuclear reactions end. A blend of nickel and Tungsten could be what allows for the E-Cat to operate at higher temperature than the melting point of nickel.

    3) We also know that tungsten can be a catalyst in various applications, including helping to produce atomic hydrogen. We have been told that the catalysts in Rossi’s system help produce atomic hydrogen, which can then interact with the reaction sites on the nickel powder. Could tungsten produce atomic hydrogen in an E-Cat?

    4) If I remember correctly, Tungsten has been used in other cold fusion systems.

    Rossi made an interesting comment on his blog. He stated the following.

    Andrea Rossi
    February 23rd, 2012 at 11:05 AM

    Dear Helmut H.:
    Not only MIT, but many others. Many copies derived from our patent application have been made, this is why the competition is on the market: who will be able to produce the best at the best price will win.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    If copies can be derived from the patent application, does that mean that it might have information about the catalysts?

    I am hoping that there are people who read E-Catworld that understand more than I do about physics, that can determine the identity of the anomalous line. If we can determine what it is and if tungsten really is used in the E-Cat, it could help us better understand this amazing technology.

    • sapain

      nice find, i have been looking for signs of international patent applications, this one being usa.

      • sapain

        also under this patent rossi has switched from injecting hydrogen to now internally supplying hydrogen, wonder if he amendated the patent application to include this, patent application of oct9,09.

    • Dr. No

      Very interesting, thank you for collecting the information about it.

    • Matt S

      There are some very clued up guys on the Vortex I fourm who could help you out, not sure if they are letting newbies on it at the moment tho due to the super-dull super-sceptics that were trying to take over.

      http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/

    • J

      I think the Tungsten line might be due to Raleigh scattering of the Tungsten L-alpha peak (8.398Kev) and why it is not noted in the original spectra. It is an interference signal from the Tungsten that is generally used as the x-ray generating anode wire. It’s been along time since I did XRF so I am not very confident about this; any practicing XRF experts, please chime in. Check this source: http://www.ifuap.buap.mx/Workshop-XRF/XRF-theory/Bruker_Tracerand_Artax_XRF_Raw_Spectrum_Analysis_User_.pdf

  • sapain

    with iran turning greek way, the greek govenrment should b pushing it for alls it`s worth, that`s of course if political lobbyist really cared for the populace.
    if these test r positive, the greek government would have no problem getting instant investors.
    alot of mean games being played in greece.

  • FILIP

    Where’s Dick?

    • Andrew Macleod

      He didn’t call them to hash out the details and refused to even read the NDA, I guess he is all talk and no show.

  • Roger Bird

    Try to remember what is in Defkalion’s best interest, whether they are scammers or the real deal. Remember that satisfying our (the Internet followers) craving for resolution is probably not one of their concerns. Their concerns are to attract funding or more help or whatever, but our insane and intense craving (which I share with you-all) for resolution is not one of their concerns. So don’t be surprised if we don’t get any confirming reports this week or next week or even anytime soon. Rossi would probably share this attitude.

    Also remember that it might seem insulting to them for many of us to call them liars and scammers and whatever insults we have for them. Not trusting someone can be insulting, especially if one is Italian or Greek.

    I am not suggesting that we should all believe them or even say that we believe them. The skeptics among us serve their purpose. (The patho-skeptics should seek psychiatric care.) It is even possible that they are tormenting us, perhaps even just to get back at us for doubting their word. If they are absolutely positive that they have a working, commercially viable product, then they are secure enough to have a little fun with people who have insulted them.

    Just a possibility.

    • Stephen

      “Not trusting someone can be insulting, especially if one is Italian or Greek.”

      Mhhh… yes, they might tend to take it personal. But also remember that sometimes this is part of the game. Full of skilled actors around there… 😉

      I guess some of you have seen the great movie where a guy was trying to (with success) sell the Fontana di Trevi to the turists in Rome. He would have surely played to be deeply insulted in front of anybody saying the fountain was not owned by him 🙂

      Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui3ybjNiH2U

    • Matt S

      That is a possible for sure. Another one could be that they are waiting for the conclusion of all the tests planned so that they can send one very exciting release release out which states that all x7 companies/orgs/scientisits have now seen the device working and run their own tests and all can confirm that it is the real deal? And I would then hope we get to hear from the organisations/testers themselves to confirm it.

      • Matt S

        I meant to say one very exciting press release!

      • Roger Bird

        Without confirmation, they are in uncertainty limbo.

        • edog

          Lets go steal one!

    • Ged

      It does take time to evaluate results, write up a report, and make figures for presentation. I know because I’m in the middle of making a scientific paper for publication myself. It does take time.

      The only one with the final say in this now is the Greek government.

  • dragon

    This is like dejavue:

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/07/greek-government-agencies-involved-in-testing-of-defkalions-hyperion-products/

    This is from a post from Defkalion July 4th 2011 !!!

    ““All official test by the Greek Authorities are in progress. We have already answered which are the Ministries that, by law, have designated related authorities and labs to run such tests:

    -Ministry of Regional Development/Industry
    -Ministry of Environment/Energy
    -Ministry of Education and Research

    As stated in the Press Conference and in other topics in this forum, the results and the protocols of all tests will be published in Defkalion’s site uppon issuing of Certificates.

    Thank you for your question””

    So what happened to those tests and the Greek government reactions to them?????

    • Ged

      Very interesting, Dragon, great catch.

      Are you up for joining me on asking about this on the Defkalion forums? If we go together we might get through to them and get some answers. I’ll try to be around today, though I’m very busy writing my own stuff.

      • dragon

        I am already there as “Random Hope”. I always keep 2-3 aliases and sometimes even play on both teams, just to get a bigger view on any given idea.

        • dragon

          Just to give people some Random hope I would like to show a parallel between Wright brothers and Rossi/Defkalion just to show that it is possible to have at least 2-3 years before even the skeptics come around and confirm devices that are working already. Here it goes from Wikipedia (of course, I am too lazy to go further than that smile )
          Beginning quote:
          [“In 1906, skeptics in the European aviation community had converted the press to an anti-Wright brothers stance. European newspapers, especially in France, were openly derisive, calling them bluffeurs (bluffers).”

          “The Paris edition of the New York Herald summed up Europe’s opinion of the Wright brothers in an editorial on February 10, 1906:
          The Wrights have flown or they have not flown. They possess a machine or they do not possess one. They are in fact either fliers or liars. It is difficult to fly. It’s easy to say, ‘We have flown. ”
          End Quote

          Just for everybody info here, Wright brothers started to fly 1900, so at least 6 years before being called bluffers (aka… scam). And as Rossi / Defkalion, they made public tests and so forth. Even more interesting (from Wikipedia, again):

          “The Wright brothers made no flights at all in 1906 and 1907. They spent the time attempting to persuade the U.S. and European governments that they had invented a successful flying machine and were prepared to negotiate a contract to sell such machines.”

          That shows that at the time Europeans where making a campaign against them in media, Wright brothers were already interested only in business and patents. Kind of like Defkalion and Rossi now…

          So let’s not dismiss so easily the evidence. The Pattern regarding disruptive technology was already established by Wright brothers.

          • Ged

            This is true.

          • daniel maris

            Of course not…but this isn’t really about whether or not DGT hav ea viable product it’s about how they treat the public (with contempt so far). Would you do business with them? I wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole the way they have behaved.

        • Ged

          I had a feeling that was you 😀

  • Commentator

    I have been following lenr since blacklight power first came on the scene. Their office is only a few miles from my house, and a good friend of mine his wife works at blacklight power, and has since day 1. I managed to speak with Dr Mills on one occasion and ask him a few questions of what he thought of Rossi. Thats a seperate post. BLP did a validation study at Rowan University and they released the results as positive. That was years ago. This technology is finally coming to market, and its hard to express my feelings of elation to see all the skeptics thrash about wildly, crying that there is not enough info to prove its true. Proffesionaly reimbursed skeptic or freelance skeptic, either way, read it and weep. I have waited a long time for this day. Taste it, the bitter revulsion of the realization, that you must now skulk away from those who celbrate a new era, and go hide in your dark corner of the internet.

    • Bruno

      Mills has been promising LENR commercialization for years but hasn’t fielded one product. For the past 4 or 5 YEARS BLP has promised a product launch in “months” or “by the end of the year” and nothing ever happens. I hope that it’s all for real, but I’ve become a skeptic. I’ve been disappointed so many times that I’ve raised the threshold of proof needed to convince me.

    • Matt S

      Would be very interested to hear more about BLP and what they have been up to recently.. As they have gone very quiet since their initial launch. Could you comment some more?

      • edog

        Yes, what has your wife got to say??

    • Roger Bird

      For me, the only crime that the skeptics have committed is calling researchers liars and fools and crooks. This would define, for me, the difference between a skeptic and a patho-skeptic. This and the unwillingness to even look at the data. These people, I hope, will have to skulk, soon. And I will enjoy every minute of their skulking.

      • Steve Robb

        Let them eat crow.

  • Bruno

    And the name of the government official corroborating DT’s claim is ……

    • Ged

      Know Greek or anyone who knows Greek? I’d be up for writing some e-mails for translation to be mailed to the Grecian government. If enough people bug them, we might get a quick response.

  • Jim Rice

    I haven’t been able to access the defkalion web site since last Friday. I tried pinging it, no help. Any suggestions? Here’s the link I tried:

    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/

    • Roger Bird

      I also, just now, could not get in.

  • Kim

    Pitiful!

    Its a secret…

    gotta have secrets…

    Were running out of time folks

    Respect
    Kim

    • Roger Bird

      The only thing we have to fear is liberal hysteria.

    • sapain

      nothing is more fearful than losing control.
      lenr will cause a loss of control to a lot of things.

  • It is impossible for Rossi or DGT to issue any kind of statement in the current or past tense with one exception. The exception is if the statement pertains to something that will occur in the future.

    For example: DGT announced (past tense) that the end is near.

    That’s a statement in past tense about something that will occur in the future.

  • The news is excellent.

    The lack of information due to NDA is
    not so good. The companies and organizations involved are still “to be announced soon”.
    The live camera and open testing has not
    happened yet.

    The stated goal is to sell a product much
    needed by the world and covered up and
    ignored long for a long time. So far everyone
    is out of the loop so it is difficult for the
    mainstream to bring about the public policy
    support needed.

    There have been people who have been rebuffed in Canada to mention cold fusion while tens or even hundreds of millions of government support are given to the fossil fuel industry for every thing from basic reasearch to marketing and even publicity.

  • Robert Mockan

    Given Greek political problems might be awhile to hear anything official about the testing.

    Here are simple algebraic equations for calculating the amount of thermal power a LENR would need to generate to provide some desired electrical power.

    For the calculations you need to enter COP, conversion efficiency (Eff) as a decimal (for example 30% would be .30), and the desired electrical power out (Poe) in watts. The first formula gives the electrical power into the LENR reactor (Pie) needed to run the LENR. The power to run it is taken from the output of the unit after it is turned on and operating. The second formula gives the total thermal power out (Pout) the Hyperion needs to generate to provide the desired net electrical power out. The total thermal power out after conversion to electricity runs the LENR reactor, and what is left over is what you get to use for your house.

    1. Pie = (Poe + Pie) /(COP x Eff)
    2. Pot = (COP x Pie) / Eff

    For example: You want to power your house with 12,500 watts of electricity (Poe). You have some old LENR reactor and power generator system you got cheap from the dump that still has some fuel in it. The label says COP=20, and the conversion efficiency (Eff) says .15 (that stands for 15% – this is, after all, an early model). You think, hey, this must be the Mark 1 Hyperion model! (They did not start using the fantastically expensive 30% converter turbine generator before the year 2028. The Mark 1 only had a cheap 15% conversion efficiency. Bummer, but what can you expect from the dump?)

    So you quickly apply the formulae.

    Pie = ( Poe + Pie ) / ( COP x Eff )
    Pie = ( 12500 + Pie ) / ( 20 x .15 )
    Pie = ( 12500 + Pie ) / ( 3 )
    Pie = 12500 / 3 + Pie / 3
    3 Pie = 12500 + Pie
    3 Pie – Pie = 12500
    2 Pie = 12500
    Pie = 6250

    Hmm. So this LENR needs 6250 watts, drawn from the output, to power it, while providing 12500 watts for the house.

    Does it put out enough thermal power before conversion to electricity to power itself and the house?

    Pout = ( COP x Pie ) / Eff
    Pout = ( 20 x 6250 ) / .15
    Pout = 125000 / .15
    Pout = 833,334

    Yep. The Mark 1 was a megawatt model, and actually was able to generate a little over 12,500 watts of electricity. But it needed a megawatt of thermal power output to do that. But hey, it sure could heat the swimming pool!

    These numbers should start to give any person interested in getting electricity from LENR a better idea what the issues are, and how COP and Eff affect the thermal power needed.

    If you do the calculations with whatever electrical power in watts you need for your house, you see the effects of different COP and Eff on the total thermal power the LENR device needs to output.

    I’ve said this before, but here again.
    People are going to need MEGAWATTS of thermal power.
    The Rossi device at COP=6 and Eff of .15 will not even power itself. The Hyperion at COP=20 isn’t really much better if Eff is still .15.

    If you put in the maximum probable Eff of .30, and use a COP=20? You still need a LOT of thermal power out to make enough electricity to power your house. And unless it is MEGAWATTS of thermal power, forget trying to power a vehicle of any kind. Even a 20 horsepower electric motor draws a bit over 15,000 watts.

    • Robert Mockan

      CORRECTION:

      Bleh! Formulae (2) should be Pout, not Pot.

      Pout= COP x Pie

      That is thermal power out.

      Total electrical power out is Pot,
      and that should have been:

      Pot= Pout x Eff.

      Sorry about that. Tried copying from my mathcad sheet and between typing, typos, and all, put down the wrong formula.

    • Robert Mockan

      Thus the calculation changes from:

      Pout = ( COP x Pie ) / Eff
      Pout = ( 20 x 6250 ) / .15
      Pout = 125000 / .15
      Pout = 833,334

      to:

      Pout = COP x Pie
      Pout = 20 x 6250
      Pout = 125,000 thermal watts output.

      And when converted to electricity at Eff=.15, that gives (next formulae number 3), total electrical power out (Poet):

      Poet= Eff x Pout
      Poet= .15 x 125000
      Poet= 18750 electrical watts

      Check this by adding Poe + Pie
      12500 + 6250 = 18750 watts.

      Thus, in the example to give 12500 electrical watts out to other uses, a total out of 18750 watts electrical is needed, and 6250 watts are returned to the input of the LENR. And this can be done with a total 125,000 thermal watts from the LENR.

      For vehicles still go with MEGAWATTS, but the house reactor might just be affordable.

      • Robert Mockan

        Sheesh! There is no Pot!
        Pot is Poet.
        (Where the heck did Pot come from?)
        Obviously I am no poet, but I hope from the mangled commentary you got the point.

      • Tom Andersen

        You only need about 3kw to run a house for 90% of the time, and sine unplugging from the grid is expensive cause you need backup and peak, you only need a 30kw Hyperion or so to lower your electric bill to close to zero.

        For cars it is similar, as a car with a 5kw recharge on the batteries would solve most driving habits.

        Really, what your calls show is that power grids are here to stay, for a while, even if this works.

        • Robert Mockan

          Hmm. So if one had a 5 KW Hyperion then it could be used to charge the car batteries at night, and power the house during the day?

          1. Pie=(Poe+Pie)/(COPxEff)
          =(5000+Pie)/(20x.15)
          =5000/3 + Pie/3
          3Pie=5000+Pie
          2Pie=5000

          Pie=2500 watts to Hyperion input to power it.

          2. Pout=COPxPie
          =20×2500

          Pout=50000 thermal watts needed
          from Hyperion.

          3. Poet=EffxPout
          =.15×50000

          Poet=7500 watts total electrical output from Hyperion needed to provide 5000 watts power to the house (and car recharge at night), with 2500 watts being sent back into the Hyperion input to power it.

          Ok. So a 50,000 thermal watt output Hyperion with COP=20, and a conversion efficiency of 15% to electric power, is what would be needed.

          That seems feasible.

    • sapain

      with the ability of self sustaining mode Pie=o, if Pie=0 can be maintained for periods of say 5hrs before a boost is required. electrical power production is greatly enhanced.

      • Robert Mockan

        Actually electrical power production would not change, but the amount that was used for powering the Hyperion when it had a COP=20 would be available. In the example given the (corrected) numbers are:

        Check this by adding Poe + Pie
        12500 + 6250 = 18750 watts

        The reactor total electrical power out
        remains at 18750 watts, but if Pie can be taken to zero for some time then the 6250 watts that would have to sent back to power the reactor also becomes available for use. That increases the 12,500 watts to 18,750 watts available for use.

        In a self sustaining design I’ve been looking at it becomes more important in that if no electrical power is needed to power the reactor, then all the steam can be used for output shaft horsepower, and the generator mass is eliminated. This would be useful for aircraft applications when a megawatt thermal energy is being used to generate a couple hundred shaft horsepower to the propeller. Although the plane would not need to carry fuel for the piston engine that the reactor and steam engine replace, there would be heat exchanger mass to radiate waste heat to condense the steam, so gettting rid of electric generator mass would be helpful.

        Also, from what I’ve been reading, in self sustaining mode the thermal power per unit mass of the reactor fuel is greatly reduced. That would mean more reactor mass for same a given output. From my calculations it would sem if the thermal power out can be kept at least to 1 watt per gram it will not create a serious mass penalty for aircraft, and none for marine applications.

        • Robert Mockan

          CORRECTION:

          least to 1 watt per gram

          s/b

          least to 10 watts per gram.

          I’ve been doing the plane calculations on conversion of a DC-3 to a “Camper” with floats for open ocean landing and take-off. The DC-3 engines are rated 1200 Hp each, and the difference between empty and gross weight is about 9 tons.

          It appears that if the nickel hydrogen LENR fuel has the characteristics stated in the literature, applying a light weight LENR reactor to power the plane would take about 5 of the 9 tons,
          leaving 4 tons for conversion to accomodations. The resulting plane would have multiple trans global range capability without refueling, and would be able to land and take off from unpaved fields, glaciers, lakes, and of course the oceans.

          Of course, getting permission to fly such a converted aircraft would not be possible unless existing “civilization” destroyed itself, and we had to start over.
          Pity.

          • Robert Mockan

            CORRECTION:

            “difference between empty and gross weight is about 9 tons.

            It appears that if the nickel hydrogen LENR fuel has the characteristics stated in the literature, applying a light weight LENR reactor to power the plane would take about 5 of the 9 tons, leaving 4 tons”

            Change all “tons” to “thousand pounds”.

            Rest of commentary seems OK.

  • Brad Arnold

    This is the acid test. Before government officials had only indirect evidence of a revolutionary chean and very cheap energy technology, but now it is in their face ready to commercialize. A device that heats enough, to generate electricity with nickel and hydrogen, thereby generating an infinate COP when put in series. As Forbes said “electricity too cheap to meter.”

    How will those government officials react? Will they try to stifle it? Will the governments announce to the public this change of paradigm? Will the governments control the markets to be sure there isn’t an over-reaction that results in a financial melt-down?

    Again, before it wasn’t “real,” and now it is “real.” Government officials don’t deal in hypotheticals, but they do deal with short term eventualities. Now is the time for the leaders of the world to show their true stripes. What will it be: stifle or embrace?

    • Robert Mockan

      When the government and the media say something is NOT real, or simply ignore it, unfortunately most people will believe it is not real. So there is a third option the government officials may take. Simply not say anything at all about it, and muzzle Defkalion from saying anything definite. In a short time back to business as normal, and the LENR subject remains dead for another hundred years. That is why EVERY PERSON needs to be informed HOW TO MAKE THE FUEL!

      • Joe

        LENR has been dead these past decades and will continue to be dead for many more, not because its being suppressed like many nutters believe but because of universal absence of reproducibility. Experiments appear to only work under the dark vail of secrecy but wither and die under the light of scrutiny.

        To make matters worse the field is surrounded by a great many cheer leaders who blindly accept all claims without any empirical evidence which fosters an atmosphere of quackery in the overall field.

        • I would agree with you only reputable institutions like NASA agree to denigrate their image by not only participating in the mendacity but adding to it. I think that rather than cheerleaders/blind acceptance another phenomenon exists. The inability of many to admit that LENR may exist but not be the perfect stable wonderful contraption that some sheister’s are trying to sell. If NASA or MIT came out and said “we can achieve LENR but it is flimsy at best and we don’t really understand what is going on” the crown would fall off of their heads. Worse, if Rossi or DGT came out with a system that works better NASA and MIT would be fools. So what happens is they end up messing up the field with these half measures and lies and misinformation.

          • tom scheme

            I think you have the most plausible description of the state of things I’ve read.

        • Joe where have you been this is 2012 not 1989. Physics Professor Yoshiaki Arata of Osaka University in Japan has 100% reproduction.

        • sapain

          sparwar was using codeposition and had reactions going in a few hours,using simple $100 test models showing various radiation and particle emmissions.they ran mutiple tests with positive results.

      • Paul Richards

        Robert – I like your mindset, this is a life line to a fast transition from dependance on petrochemicals. Lets’ hope everyone develops an open source approach to this. However vested interests must be shuddering at the thought of a paradigm shift.

    • JC

      They will embrace it, Brad. Everyone will eventually. There is no question about it.

      Champagne, check.
      Shades, check.

      Welcome to the age of aquarius.

    • FILIP

      thorium is also real

      • sapain

        yes it is, it also has high potential.

      • Paul Richards

        “thorium is also real” FILIP

        The militarised experiment of nuclear energy production, is also “real”. With a record of one major disaster every 10 years.

    • Steve Robb

      One reason the Greek government is so hot to support LENR is that they hope to eliminate flammable liquids…soon, very, very soon.

  • Sanjeev
    • Sanjeev

      Highlights:

      The sources also said that the test was not focused on power or energy measurements but rather on safety.

      six groups now remains, including at least two U.S. groups, sources told Ny Teknik.

      The Greek government has neither confirmed nor denied its involvement in the test, but it is most probably informed.

      On February 20, 2012 Rossi performed a demonstration to show the actual level of development. Among the participants was chemist Roland Pettersson

      Roland Pettersson told Ny Teknik that the system was now much more stable. A new set of control electronics was used and the system was started just pushing a button.

      Roland Pettersson and other participants were also shown a prototype of the consumer version of the E-cat

    • daniel maris

      Wow! Yes – this is solid news. I thought it was just glossing the Defkalion tests. They’ve got the wrong headline on that! The headline should have been all about Rossi’s device: “Big Advances on the E Cat”. 🙂

      This is really significant. We know now that an “outsider” – Pettersson – is confirming some important developments.

  • the snake

    Why wasn’t there any news about the presentation scheduled for Feb. 24, I only heard it was cancelled but no statements from Defkalion. Now they claim government involvement whatever that means. The government would need to find a scientist from a university or other agency, why should there be any secrecy on side of the government or lack of an official declaration? There is no description of the tests, just a delayed note which is quite meaningless.

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  • Sanjeev

    I’m guessing that the results would be (if a signed copy is published) that there are no safety hazards from Hyperions. There won’t be any conclusions about the energy production.

    It was govt people, so I do not expect that they would do anything technical.

    We must wait for the other tests (if they happen) for any hint of reality of Hyperion.

    • blah43

      Wouldn’t observing the device operating for a long period imply commercially viable LENR? If I go in there concerned only that the thing doesn’t blow up, so to speak, and it doesn’t blow up after many hours of making heat, then I’ve just witnessed a pretty significant event; sure, they might be shooting microwaves into it or pumping joules through a ground wire, but Occam’s Razor begins working against such subterfuge. Just wondering…

  • High level government officials??
    What would they know?

    So what!

    These statements mean absolutely nothing.

    • starman

      Defkalion stopped with their forum!

  • VAN DEN BOGAERT JOANNES

    To the CEO of HYPERION,

    Belgian patents with publication numbers BE1002780 and BE1002781 are available on the e-Cat Site under the title: Belgian LANR Patents. They have been scrutinized by the Belgian Ministry of Defense and withhold from publication for 2 years. They probably contain alternatives to the Nickel-Hydrogen system.
    Original documents are available through the European patent data site ESPACENET (Advanced Search)

    The inventor

  • Ed

    Unknown test by unknown people with unknown results. Defkalion has shot its self in the foot. Credibility zero.

    • PersonFromPorlock

      “Unknown test by unknown people with unknown results. Defkalion has shot its self in the foot. Credibility zero.”

      Be nice. It’s ‘test yet to be revealed’ by ‘people yet to be revealed’ with ‘results yet to be revealed’. In other words, Schroedinger’s cat in a new box.

      Credibility? Indeterminate, but I don’t hear much meowing.

      • with pas defkalion communication, there are only two possibilities.
        * Either at the end Defkalion have disappeared, the big board of director ( http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=87&p=256#p256 ) is ridiculous, and facing justice (because they have stollen cash to someone, else why do that)…
        * it works, the testers have to admit it work. it is totalpanic ammong the consensus, and the testers try to delay. if DGT get angry about that, they menace to publish and critics the testers, who delay and obey…

  • dragon

    Regarding Defkalion closing the forum…. LENR is not laughing matter. It is Civilization changing matter.
    You can’t go around us without showing us nothing and hope for the better. We will not trust you even if you release the product. Only after product is validated by numerous (many hundreds) of reliable testers and institutions we can believe in you, Defkalion. You didn’t had the courtoisie of showing us at least ONE tester that we can ask questions about Hyperion. Just ONE! In this world it is you who need us, especially that you have competition.

    People are saying here that there is enough space for everybody in LENR. No, it is not! LENR CAN BE DANGEROUS, like any other heater. You will not buy a heater that you don’t trust absolutely because IT IS Dangerous. We do not have even a proper and verifiable theory about LENR (we don’t even know if LENR is a good name for it). LENR is Strange fire in your house, close to your kids. You need to be absolutely sure that in all condition this NEW FIRE does not burn you, trough explosion, slow radiation, overheating and any other kind of uncontrollable variable.

    Do not say to me DEFKALION acted proper. THEY DID NOT!
    And by closing the forum they showed once again from what they are made of.

    • the snake

      zero credibility: the presentation was scheduled for Feb. 24 with big claims of performance for the Hyperion. On Feb. 24 there was not even a statement, and only days later they come up with a scant declaration. Probably no one was even invited for the Feb 24 event. It was a scam from beginning on. All the government talk issues are ridiculous, they would have been pending long before Feb. 24.

    • Jack

      This Defkalion is a scheme probably aiming at stealing government money. It is a con.

      • Alain

        no, the position is already taken by solar and wind energy.
        and it is legal, and no risk of being criticized for fake promises.

        with their public announce of their test protocol, they could not pretend to refuse to use it if the tester (in your idea it is a government) ask.
        So the test , or a test that please the tester better, have been either made by the tester , or defkalion refused to respect it’s promiss, and it will be clear.

        note that unlike many scam like nuke, fusion, wind, solar, oil prospection, the consensus is that it cannot work. so the “official” will be very suspicious, and any efusal will be a reason to kill all credibility, even if it is not a critical point…
        the official are dreaming of that demo to fail, so they save their ideology of ColdFusion is scam.

        I’m even convinced that mid-april the testers, not defkalion, will try to delay the results, to save their group-delusion of ColdFusion being a scam.

        coldFusion is a nightmare for the Consensus. it cannot be a subject of scam (except opposite faked failure, that they dream of).

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  • Armando

    If a LENR device will be used for electrical generation, we, the consumers, will still be paying the price the company decide to charge us, which maybe would be 90% of the actual price. “Operational costs”, they will say… And sadly, I don’t have too much hope a home device will be authorised for sale. Looks like the real mission of Govt is to force consumers to spend money, not to save…