Defkalion Hyperion Demo Thread

We have just a few hours before the commencement of the live demonstration of Defkalion Green Technology’s Hyperion reactor which is to be broadcast via the web from Milan Italy in connection with ICCF-18 conference in Columbia, Missouri.

According to the event page at Livestream.com, the broadcast will begin at 6:00 a.m. EDT on Monday July 22 and run until 9:00 a.m. EDT. Following is the detailed event description from Livestream.com, translated by Google:

“Live from the labs Defkalion Europe, in Milan, is set up what is perhaps the most advanced experiment of cold fusion. Cold fusion has long been the center of controversy, large differences, suspicions, supporters and accusers who, in no uncertain terms, speak of scam. The substance would be very simple: with cold fusion we are in the presence of an energy source with essentially unlimited and low costs. If this new energy source was available on the market, as announced at the Defkalion Europe, it would change the global energy scenarios. In the course of this meeting, organized by Defkalion Europe, in cooperation with TRIWU ‘and Moebius, the transmission of Radio Science 24, Il Sole 24 Ore, it can be seen working the “machine” that through a process of LENR, Low energy Nuclear Reaction produces energy. The reactor has never been seen before to the general public. Federico Pedrocchi Moebius, Maurizio Melis (also known as the host of Mr. Kilowatt Radio 24), with the help of technical Defkalion Europe and other guests, will describe the “machine” in its various components, and tell how the process works – or should work, telling the voices of those who cry all’imbroglio. One thing is certain: the appointment is of great interest to the world of scientific research and industrial development. If it works, the energy revolution of cold fusion will change the daily lives of everyone.”

Daniele Passerini of 22passi.blogspot.com is in correspondence with someone he names MYSTERY who is apparently at the Defkalion Europe Lab in Milan. In a recent post Passerini gives a report from MYSTERY:

The reactor that will be used in the upcoming test, MYSTERY has let us know that a few hours ago:

  • Today, after 12 has been turned on in order to verify the measurement setup and the streeming; currently the COP is 6.4 continues to grow, you should settle around 7 to 7.2.
  • Tomorrow will be loaded with 5g of powders [we assume very similar to those of the ‘ E-Cat of Andrea Rossi ].
  • The stream will be live for 2 hours, then turn off the reactor and to rekindle the direct next day, around 16. It will stay lit for more than 8 hours.
  • The setup will be made public during the day tomorrow or at the latest after a few days to attach the test data

Peter Gluck at the EGO Out blog has posted a document authored by Defkalion titled, DEFKALION’S TEST PROTOCOL FOR PUBLIC DEMO, which provides an outline of the upcoming testing. Among other things it notes that the testing will be performed in the presence of:

  • Paolo Vitulo (University of Pavia – Researcher for CMS Project, CERN – Geneve),
  • Raymond Zreick (News editor, Focus),
  • Mats Lewan (Journalist, NyTechnik)
  • A member of CICAP (Italian commitee for the control on scientific scams).

I am sure that there will be more important pieces of information coming out as time goes on. Please feel free to post any news, opinion and comments about the event in the comments below.

  • Hampus

    Mats Lewan works for Ny Teknik*

  • Steve G

    as much as i detest how Defkalion Green Technology acquired their technology, I am going to have to side with the betterment of society with LENR, so if Defkalion has taken the initiative to show Cold Fusion – LIVE – let it be.

    • Kim

      I agree, I’m tired of the cold
      fusion fetal position.

      Respect
      Kim

    • blaze

      Rossi could have just patented it and then disclosed everything.

      The fact that he didn’t meant that he didn’t have anything.

      Either way, he doesn’t deserve a monopoly over it.

      • Robyn Wyrick

        Sorry, but (1) I believe he did file for a patent, and was turned down because “Cold Fusion is pathological science”. So that means that, when patents do finally start coming out for this, he will fall under the “first to file” rules, (presuming that he was the first), and he can go defend that patent in court.

        (2) If he did develop the technology first, then monopoly or not, he certainly deserves a giant paycheck the size of all of Saudi Arabia and Exxon Mobile combined.

        I don’t begrudge him his fortune if he has what is reported.

        • dsm

          Robyn

          That may unfortunately be a ‘wishful thinking’ belief in that other people were getting LENR+ patents granted before and after Andrea applied for his (filed with the EPO in late 2008 and currently under threat of rejection).

          The real problem Andrea faced was that he lacked the skill to word the patent in a way that it would be accepted. One issue that is well known was writing into the patent that it used a mystery catalyst. That alone was enough to reject the patent as a patent cannot rely on any undisclosed component or process as a ‘claim’. His did.

          Andrea subsequently revised his wording in 2012 to say the catalyst was not needed. Even that may be regarded by the reviewers (still handing his appeal against pending rejection), as unacceptable.

          The wording has to disclose in such a way that others can replicate the process else it can be rejected as incomplete.

          Andrea also had to deal with issues of ‘prior art’ and has appealed those objections.

          Cheers – DSM

          • winebuff

            DSM

            You are a very smart poster. Ive seen a lot of your posts on independent ecn you are very critical of ar has your tune changed after the 3rd party tests or still the same?

        • georgehants

          +1
          Good old incompetent science.

  • hempenearth

    It’s good to know the Italians have a committee to control their scientific scams 🙁

  • Nixter

    If the Defkalion demo runs successfully, it will be a polarizing event. The skeptics will have a field day with the lack of everything being done to their always changing demands and specifications, while those of us who feel that Cold Fusion is viable, emerging and growing, will be pleased to see movement in the emerging science. The skeptics will point to the demo as further evidence that Cold Fusion is not real, while most of supporters will feel that the demo is another crack in the wall of denial.

    I think Dr. Rossi is correct when he says that the issue will not be settled in the court of public opinion, but in the corporate, manufacturing sectors when they operate reliably making heat and energy. It does no harm to stage these informative demonstrations, they serve a function, they spread the word, arouse curiosity and stimulate interest, all necessary things to spread the word. Until there are units running in the wild, the issue will not be settled. I’m certain that the last Rossi report represents a tipping point in the battle for widespread acceptance, the Cold Fusion snowball has started rolling down from the mountains peak, how large it grows on it’s way down the slope is the only pertinent question, not if it is there or not.

    • Kim

      Very Good.
      I agree that the final disposition
      will be settled by the customer.

      Respect
      Kim

    • dsm

      It is quite unfortunate that so many attacks (in other blogs by a well know attack poster) are being made a on a test before it is even run.

      One current point being directed at the test is by a certain attack poster who is ridiculing the protocol document for listing cop 1.1 as the target when that is merely the minimum.

      The point about 1.1 is it is over unity and that alone is a great demo. The actual machine is claimed to have a COP of around 3 and as seen in the Milan pre comments it may go up to COP 7.

      As with any LENR/LENR+ demo it will be a great leap forward if this can be validated but we should be in no doubt that this demo will attract the same highly negative criticism no matter what it really achieves.

      Let us hope this demo does contribute and dispel more of the skepticism that LENR/LENR+ can be achieved in the kilowatt ranges. Skepticism is necessary but only up to a rational level.

      DSM

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Is a COP of 1.1 what they hope ITER can achieve decades from now?

        • Ivy Matt

          ITER is anticipated to achieve a Q value (fusion energy gain factor) of 10 in roughly 1.5 decades.

          • Roger Bird

            Yeah, I’ve thought about it carefully and have consulted with my engineers, scientists, and even my parish priest, and I have finally decided after a great deal of inner reflection and soul searching to not hold my breath on this one. (:->)

          • Ivy Matt

            Wise man.

            With considerably less reflection and consultation…I’m not holding my breath for anyone, just yet. Much too soon to conclude that anyone’s going anywhere. (Apart from the usual suspects: coal, subsidized renewables, etc.) Hope, maybe, but hope doesn’t power the grid.

          • Roger Bird

            After 19 months of study, I concluded that the May 2013 report of the 3 tests was real. And I mean both meanings of the word ‘concluded’. I won’t be changing my mind on Rossi without extraordinary evidence.

      • blaze

        It doesn’t really matter.

        Until they disclose schematics (after patenting) for 3rd party reproducibility, the deniers will deny no matter what.

        These demos are for fans and investors, potential partners. The fans will believe regardless, and the investors / partners are responsible for their own due diligence.

    • MStone

      I don’t think it will be so much a snowball as a brush fire. It will be like when bloom energy came out and said they had working reactors at Google server farms. I call it the “bloom energy moment”. It lit up the scientific blogs for a few weeks. But, this is much, much bigger. It will light up the blogs…then it will hit main stream news…then you will hear it in an Obama speech…then you will see your forest fire.

  • daniel maris

    Well it sounds v. interesting. It could be a turning point. Maybe this is Defkalion’s chance to redeem itself. However we have to see what transpires of course.

  • Greenwin

    Any guesses on how mainstream media handles this? Unless orders have changed, the blackout will continue.

    “An educated citizenry is a vital requisite for our survival as a free people.” T. Jefferson

    • Roger Bird

      There aren’t any orders except to not embarrass the company, and LENR is still out there.

    • daniel maris

      I agree that the blackout will continue. Whether it is “organised” or just “cultural” I don’t know. But I have seen it in operation.

      Yes – an educated citizenry is our only hope! 🙂

      • MStone

        I would like to add a grain of salt to T.J.’s statement.

        “You can’t fix stupid”

    • Alan DeAngelis

      This bad boy had something to say about the mainstream media.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB_lO72qiVQ

      • GreenWin

        Correct Alan. Mainstream media is trippin… Or following orders; you decide. 🙂

        • fortyniner

          The presence of Raymond Zreick is both interesting and for me, rather surprising. ‘Focus’ is a glossy ‘popular science’ magazine owned by the BBC and widely available by subscription or through newsagents across the UK. The magazine has often published items on controversial topics in the past, and has even questioned the reality of ‘global warming’ more than once.

          Assuming the demo is not a bust for some reason, to my mind the test of whether there is still a ‘Do not touch’ sign hanging on cold fusion will be whether or not Focus runs a piece on the conference and on DGT’s results in particular, in the next available issue.

          http://sciencefocus.com/

          • georgehants
          • fortyniner

            ‘Morning George. The politicians who continue to create highly damaging policies on the back of the increasingly threadbare AGW fantasy are starting to look more than a bit foolish.

            Obama went a step too far with his completely unfounded agenda-driven scaremongering, and was caught out. It looks like fewer and fewer politicans want to go down with that particular ship (Cameron take note)

          • Gerrit

            Unfortunately that UK Focus is a different one.

            Zreick is working for the italian http://www.focus.it/

          • fortyniner

            Ah – thanks for the correction. I thought is was a bit odd that the BBC was taking an interest, even indirectly…

          • GreenWin

            Here is a M Fleischmann obit that seems written by Zreick for Focus.it:

            http://bit.ly/12coWIS

    • Gerrit

      here is an article from a mainstream science journalist. He even links to the 2009 DIA paper and the CBS 60 minutes.

      http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/163898/mu-to-host-international-conference-on-cold-fusion/

      Speaking of 60 minutes, it might be that Scott Pelley is attending the conference. So who knows, maybe we will see more interesting mainstream news coverage.

    • georgehants

      Morning GreenWin,
      —-
      “Greater than the tread of mighty armies is an idea whose time has come”
      ~Victor Hugo

      • Greenwin

        Thanks George! Hugo is correct.

    • Stephen

      The journalist actually talked about this. He mentioned explicitly the existence of taboos about CF. He mentioned he had big problems in getting any official opinion on CF by random researchers. I think a large majority of people still honestly think it’s all fake.

      Actually, this “collective behavior” is extremely interesting in itself… it’s curious to see how the scientific community and the society in general got “trapped” into this meme. I doubt this is due to any sort of real conspiracy if not in specific and limited cases. While there might be “orders”, in a wide sense, I don’t think there is a clear “mind” behind such orders.

      Maybe one day somebody smarter than me and with a degree in psycology/sociology will understand how all this works…

      • Zaxxon

        Max Planck, the founder of Quantum Theory, wrote:

        “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

        • Roger Bird

          Yeah, but in this case it is not about whether the continents creep or not, but whether their neighbor is paying $20 a year for energy and they are paying $2400 a year. That will get their undivided attention long before they die.

  • Hi there,
    What a great day!!!

    I made this teaser for the test.
    Feel free to LIKE, and remember, Sharing is Caring!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbKdK-bc0bI

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    The following exchange on JONP was posted and then (I think) removed……very interesting! Comments?

    Andrea Rossi
    July 21st, 2013 at 7:16 PM
    Paulina West:
    Thank you for your intelligent comment.
    The SEM images, so far, are confidential because they contain information that we deem industrial secret.
    We will publish our theory ( we have understood very well the effect) when the IP will be safe or made useless by a strong industrialization.
    In the meantime our R&D work goes on : please read my comment of early today.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Paulina West
    July 21st, 2013 at 6:59 PM
    Dear Adrea Rossi,

    Congratulations on the 3rd party test and the recent paper “Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device.” 500+deg C is a bit warm for something that is using 360w, the energy equivalent of a few light bulbs. This paper has helped more people on science blogs to re-evaluate their thoughts on lenr.

    When you have time, do you have plans to publish or otherwise make available the SEM images and the isotopic analysis of the transmuted particles?

    It is my observation that the work of the Japanese cold fusion scientists and the work of experimentalists in pyroelectric fusion (exploding wires) shows that the reactions are occurring within the heavier elements. The product of the reactions are important to understanding this reaction, and theories which attempt to explain the Ecat without knowing the product of the reaction are premature. It will have implications for all of the sciences. (My own view is that this is a kind of near field antenna effect, which happens at certain resonances when electricity passes through an antenna – which can be either a wire or a small particle.) Thank you for your work.

    Regards, Paulina

    • Chris I

      So it does appear that he is banking primarily on having the greatest possible head start over competitors. This is his only hope, without a patent application that includes the essential information for it being granted. Perhaps he will do so, once he has a good enough head start to be less afraid of noises during the night.

      • clovis

        +1

        • xy

          I can’t help it but that sounds like Paulina is a PR employee of AR’s partner and they thought they need to have this message out. The message is not only explaining that they really play to protect the IP but that they are working on the particle analysis to proove the theory. Very clever. Too clever to be a random Q-A.

    • George N

      “or made useless by a strong industrialization” glad to see AR is not gunna be held back by the patent – plus, industrial scalled protection means the ecat will be dirt cheap! (I kind of hope the patent does not come through now!)

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, he told this a few times before that the secret will be out after the patents are granted. The patents would themselves reveal a lot.

      • Chris I

        Any patent, in order to be such, must reveal at least enough to enable anyone “versed in the art” to acheive the claimed result without “excessive effort” (IOW without having to be the second inventor of the same thing).

    • LCD

      I have ZERO confidence that he has understood the effect well.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        The important part is that he seems to agree with Paulina West’s theory.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          And….why were the posts removed from JONP?

          • SammyM

            Well actually they were not removed. They’re still there but under the Electrical Catalyst forum:

            http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=806

          • bang

            Rossis`s blog JONP has became more and more unreadable. It is loaded with off topic posting covering several issues and various theories about almost everything. There was a suggestion of keeping the E-Cats topic in one thread, but the Dotore denied it. (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=810&cpage=6#comment-742215).
            E.g. they are talking about “Advanced concepts in black hole cosmology” but it is a complete mess, postings from Wlad and JR, in between some “E-Cat News” from Rossi.
            Not a good idea.

  • artefact

    2h and 15min to go and there are 100 people already watching the steam 🙂

    • artefact

      oh, steam -> stream .. hehe

      • Gerrit

        dry steam or wet steam ?

        • John Littlemist

          Bad COP or good COP?

          • LB

            +1

        • Timar

          Definitely dry stream…

          • clovis

            hi,guys.
            How about plasma stream,–smile

  • artefact

    ICCF-18 Opening Reception: Top Researchers and New Faces

    http://coldfusionnow.org/iccf-18-opening-reception-top-researchers-and-new-faces/

    • Pedro

      Todays demo is in Italian, addressed towards the Italian general public for “educational purposes” only. Foreign/English speaking listeners are invited to watch a 8-hour demonstration tomorrow afternoon (16:00 Italian time, 10:00 EDT US).

    • artefact

      More than 1150 listeners now. Not bad.

  • AB

    Today’s broadcast will last only one hour, it is not meant to be a validation test, and is meant for the general public.

    Tomorrow’s broadcast in English will last 8 hours and will be more technically oriented.

    • Chris I

      But I saw it posted as being from 12:00 to 15:00 which is three hrs.

      • AB

        Yes, I think I misunderstood. The test will probably last an hour.

  • Chris I

    Does this streaming last more than a few seconds at a time for anybody out there?

    Sheesh and I’m not even so far away from Milan!

    • Chris I

      Well, I officially give up for the moment. I tried two different connections available to me and the streaming sucks equally on both.

      I couldn’t even get the introductions to the guests so I’ve no idea who the hack they are, I get 3 or 4 words before it hangs yet again and my poor nerves are more important.

      I might try to see if I can get these folks comments at the end, along with their names, if by any chance the streaming will have improved.

  • Dr Bob

    The stream have the “WOW FACTOR”

    WOW THIS WAS BORING

    Im going to the beach

    let me know later if anything interesting, relevant and comprehensible happened..

    This does not float my boat.

  • Curbina

    Well, I can’t say I’m surprized that this first streaming has turned into a rather predictable pseudophilosophical discussion and that the less important aspect of it is the reactor itself. Let’s hope tomorrow’s streaming is what we all are waiting for.

  • Barry

    Well…I learned Italians gesture with their hands more than Americans. Looking forward to tomorrow.

  • LENR.FTW

    The significance of this public demo and tomorrow’s more detailed demo is not that it will prove the device works (no public demonstration could do that, at least to the satisfaction of scientific standards).

    Instead, the significance is that it diminishes the likelihood of Defkalion being scam artists as the skeptics contend. It’s one thing to try to fleece visitors behind closed doors. It’s quite another for a company (not an individual) to unambiguously assert these capabilities to the general public. There could be legal consequences if they are lying.

    I hope to gain more understanding of DGT’s reactor in the longer technical demo for English-speaking audiences. But just the fact that it is happening at all (and not so much its content) is what moves the ball closer to the LENR+ goal line and away from the massive fraud theory goal line.

    • Stephen

      Interesting point… I did not think about legal consequences of publicly asserting unexisting capabilities.

      Anyway, I liked the cool mood of the event. This is very much needed I think, this is not a kickboxing fight… I hope people with different opinions will find a space to sit down in relax and check out things in a rational way with no insults, pretence, arrogance, etc, etc… nobody should be scared of this.

    • Gerrit

      The general public is shown a working reactor and will start to wonder why the larger scientific community doesn’t investigate LENR seriously and why they have been told lies for 23 years.

      The mainstream standpoint is still: “we are not convinced and this cannot be true anyhow. I am not putting my scientific reputation in jeopardy for this, therefore I demand that you tell us exactly how this works and then we might, maybe, look at it. But not now, because I have to rush off to the ITER to burn another few million euros”

      Mainstream science is still telling us: “don’t worry, we know what we are doing. Just give us the money we need and we’ll spend it on good things, promise.”

      But the taxpayers might soon question that and demand: “get the hell back into your labs and don’t come out until you have at least a clue how this can happen. Why are we spending billions on scientific enquiry if you can’t even work this one out.”

    • Timar

      True. Most importantly it “diminishes the likelihood of Defkalion being scam artists” by proving – and that is a very important point which AFAIK nobody has mentioned so far – that they indeed have an Italian branch in Milan with a lab and technically versed employes. They have claimed for quite a while that the have international research labs, but there hasn’t been any proof for that until now.

      I don’t know of any past scam that involved several international branches. It wouldn’t make any sense to have international branches of research laboratories for the purpose of purporting a scam. I think that this is a major clue, adding to all the others, that Defkalion, by and large, have what they claim to have.

      • LENR.FTW

        Yes, I agree. Great point!

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Looking from a reasonable skeptics point of view, nothing in that first “demonstration” would tell me it is not a scam.

      • LENR.FTW

        Certainly there was nothing definitive in this morning’s event. However, Defkalion’s public posture is of interest and one piece of this intriguing puzzle we are all trying to figure out in our own ways.

  • Hampus

    8kW out; 1.8kW in. COP of 4.44.
    Temp of water in 24.7 C Temp of steam out 157 C.
    Costs: For a 10 KW reactor, a recharge of NI H cost 1 Euro 1£ for six months. Recharge every six months.

    • daniel maris

      That’s not the cost of the reactor! LOL

      • Hampus

        It’s the cost of a recharge on a 10 kwh reactor.

        • Boris Ivanoff

          I think it’s the cost of the materials. It probably doesn’t include labor, profit, overhead and so on.

        • daniel maris

          The only cost of interest is the total cost, well in my view at least.

  • Chris I

    Well, that was nerve wracking! After missing a lot, I found that when it hangs I could choose between refreshing it live or pausing and then playing, which allowed me to hear the next bit without missing words (but no longer live). I’ve now seen the recorded parts, including the initial introductions that I had missed. I still can’t see the final part, hoping to get their comments; it keeps giving me an error, but I’ll try more in playback.

    –Federico Pedrocchi – Moebius & somewhat the MC of this event – stresses it is not a validation, guests are not here to vouch for it (indeed the setup is all prepared and the screen on the wall could well have any source of data they want).

    –Marco Ripani – INFN, Genova section – Says they’re not in the habit of censoring these topics, since F&P they have often done their own work or not hindered their folks from doing any etc…

    –Beatrice Nautino – CICAP, https://www.facebook.com/divagatrice

    –Maurizio Menis – Radio 24 (Il Sole 24 Ore) – Says he was convinced it was scientific fraud/pseudoscience. Upon the many queries of listeners, he tried looking into it before dismissing it and found instead that it isn’t so simple to liquidate it.

    –Kuca Gamberale – DGT, theortical physicist, says some stuff about the machine.

    Most is chat about the controversy and skepticism.

    • Chris I

      Rats! Going from the end of the first playback to the start of the second, most of Beatrice’s whole speech is skipped over.

    • Chris I

      ERRATA CORRIGE: Luca Gamberale. Not Kuca, damn typo. My apologies.

      In the fourth playback, Beatrice talks about the importance of considering that there may be tricks or pitfalls that are not imagined and hence not checked against by the experimenters and testers. Overall, her attitude is the most skeptical in this event.

      Ripani seems the most neutral while Pedrocchi and Menis seem both quite converted and talk about the prejudice among researchers.

      • Sanjeev

        Strange that she decided to doubt but did not check anything when the whole setup was there in front of her.

        • Chris I

          Well, in that specific case, I can ubderstand her not seeing the point of it. I’m not sure if you were able to follow her talk, which I reported very concisely. She simply stated her point of view and it is one to be respected.

  • Sanjeev

    Detailed coverage of iccf is being posted at coldfusionnow.

    http://coldfusionnow.org/message-from-iccf-18-sunday-basic-course/

    I guess there will be daily reports. So far they have 2.

  • Sanjeev
  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Behold!

    The Dark Horse by Caleb Smith
    I ride a horse and his name is Darkness
    I hear his midnight call
    I ride him over the mountain’s top
    And into the valley’s fall

    In my time of need he comes for me
    I burden him in the night
    But I never know, where we will go
    Riding till’ the morning’s light

    http://www.poetry.com/poems/166522-The-Dark-Horse

    • Barry

      Iggy, how come you “Heard the hoof-beats of a Dark horse” before the rest of us?

  • buffalo

    this is fantastic news.lets hope the demo goes smooth and gives a whopping c.o.p. for a whopping 8hours.lets hope that this is properly filmed by handheldcamcorders incase livestreaming reception goes bonkers.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Defkalion’s “demonstration” give me a break. They got me up a 4am to see an unsophisticated news conference! Am I wrong or was that billed as a demonstration? Compared to Rossi’s third party test that looked like a carnival show. For the “demonstration” today they had better bring in a couple more folding tables and their sophisticated equipment or LENR is going to be set back another twenty years.

    • Steve G

      Defkalion management – has a history of being very unsophisticated, remember the corporate offices they wanted to lease in Greece were nothing more than a warehouse to house construction equipment, expectations from Defkalion are very low, I do hope they pull this off but as of this moment it is GREEK business as usual.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Their “World Headquarters” and “major” research center is in Vancouver, why is the demonstration in Itay?

        • Bob

          They will stream from Vancouver tomorrow you see.

          • Boris Ivanoff

            According to Peter Gluck, the COP will be “greater than 1.1”. Doesn’t it seem odd that they can’t predict exactly what it will be? After all, have they not been testing their Hyperions for several years?

          • Timar

            That’s an understatement. The COP in todays test has been around 5.

          • mcloki

            I guess it’s the same as an accurate MPG reading on a car.

          • CHARLES(SWVA)

            I always thought the mark of accuracy in a car was the fuel gauge.

      • Timar

        Their track record isn’t any more “unsophisticated” than Rossi’s for that matter. He fantasized about his robotic production line somewhere in the US two years ago, which should by now have produced hundred thousands of E-Cats, according to his announcements.

        It’s quite customary in business to announce overambitious plans, especially regarding the launch of novel technologies. Such blue-sky announcements are made to tease investors, to daunt competitors and last but not least to push the own R&D team. In fact, it would be tough to find any start-up company who did everything according to their initial plans and not with months or years of delay.

        I have the impression that some people here are heavily biased against Defkalion. Either because they think they “stole” the technology from Rossi or – like this poster – because of nationalist prejudices: Greece is in economic trouble, so Greeks are economically incapable and a Greek company can’t be trusted. That’s utter BS of course!

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Read the third party report!

          • Timar

            Actually, I have read it several times. Yes, the report gives Rossi an advance in credibility. That doesn’t change his track record in overambitious and unfulfilled business plans. Many skeptics ridiculed Rossi because of those announcements and took them as “proof” for Rossi being a fraudster. If you point to the former announcements from Defkalion to question their credibility you make the very same stupid mistake the skeptics do.

    • Redford

      If I get it right demonstration is tomorrow. Today was an interview for an italian scientific journalist.

      Anyway, I don’t really care about “sophisticated” energy. Energy would be good enough for me. If there are some witness from that event who says “looks genuine”, that will be a step in the good direction. Then I’ll wait for 3rd party replication, etc. Honestly this is already far more than I expected to come from Defkalion.

      • Stephen

        In my opinion, the simpler the better…

        I also understand this was NOT intended to be a test of the device, in any way. Tomorrow a more technical streaming, but I guess that won’t be a real “test” of the device either. Just a “demo”. I don’t think they are willing to provide a real proof that their device works. I think the event is more about showing what it is all about…

  • georgehants

    From Vortex with thanks
    Gone with the wind
    Jones Beene Mon, 22 Jul 2013 08:15:41 -0700
    A modern miracle of ancient technology is happening as we speak. This feat
    was witnessed on the SF Bay a few days ago – in winds of 15.8 knots. The New
    Zealand catamaran, their entry in the America’s Cup, hit a speed of 44.15
    knots – 50.8 mph in this modest wind. Amazing! for a wind-powered device –
    to be propelled at almost triple the wind speed. What if wind mills could do
    this?
    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg84568.html

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Good Point….on wind power generation

    • GreenWin

      Excellent! An amazing achievement in marine architecture.

    • Chris I

      A windmill is not itself a power source, it only converts that of the wind. Acheiving a greater speed with sail boats is of nautical interest but has nothing to do with breakthroughs for the energy market.

      In the case of wind power, high speed just isn’t a key factor. It could well be designed to work at lower speeds, it would even allow that extra little bit of efficiency as well as reducing the peril to birds.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        “A windmill is not itself a power source, it only converts that of the wind.”

        Couldn’t you say that about any motor or engine?
        Except for nukes(hot or cold), all energy comes from the sun, which gets its energy from nuclear.

        • Roger Bird

          I also thought that it was sort of a pointless point. Perhaps an ego booster. Even all of the energy in nukes and the Sun (a really big nuke) came eventually from the Big Bang, but only if you believe in the Big Bang. (:->)

          • Chris I

            If you fail to see the point, then of course it’s a pointless point! Does a windmill have a “supply of wind” locked up inside it? Do you give it a fill up when it has run out? Nah, if you can’t move it some other place when there’s no breeze, you can only pound salt.

            Aside from splitting hairs, it was just a premise to the real distinction that I made; the speed of the sailboat has a totally different interest. GH marvelled at it reaching triple the wind speed and this was seen as if on the par with a good COP in power generation such as Rossi’s.

            Whether or not you guys can get it straight, it was apples and oramges.

    • Anon

      Well if thats worth cred look at these guys.
      http://sheerwind.com/

      • Roger Bird

        Very interesting, very impressive. I love this forum. This will help wind energy a lot. But, of course, it will get CrUsHeD by LENR.

        But, there will always be people who don’t want new fangled energy sources near them, especially anything that has the word “nuclear” in it. I already know some of these people.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Anon….Really neat! Thanks for site. We will need all of the non fossil fuel sources.

        • Anon

          Sheerwind is not competitors…
          They want the same as us so lets support them!

      • Roger Bird

        Let us check out some unbiased perspectives: http://phys.org/news/2013-05-sheerwind-invelox-turbine-power.html

        Roger

  • Kim

    Its a step in the right direction.

    Positive and Constructive for Defkalion.

    But I still see the “Cold Fusion Fetal Position” with the thumb stuck directly
    in the mouth.

    Respect
    Kim

  • Sterling Allan

    I’ve posted a Blog page to track this development at http://peswiki.com/index.php/Event:2013:July:Defkalion_Demonstrations

    You’re welcome to contribute to the content there, and to comment.

    I’ve linked to this story at ECW, where people will be tracking this event as well.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    DGT is about to give a demonstration to a very sophisticated audience, between now and then, they had better get their act together. Looking from a reasonable skeptics point of view, nothing in that first “demonstration” would tell me it is not a scam. Because this demonstration is being billed as part of CF18, and is being widely watched by everyone interested in LENR, if DGT screws up, all of LENR will get a black eye.

    • Robyn Wyrick

      +1

  • Joe Shea

    The “demonstration” seemed to be no more than an extended argument between five scientists about measurement, radiation and other topics related to cold fusion. I watched for 41 minutes but never saw them turn the device on, and I was unable to read the graphs on the monitor next to the experiment, although they suggested excess heat and a high COP. The fellow with the mike was much too generous to all of the contributors, allowing thm to go on and on and on, suggesting to me that some of them – particularly the technical guy in the white shirt – were trying to sabotage the publicity.

    • GreenWin

      Joe, AFAIK this was billed as a radio show, for an established science-based radio program, Radio Science 24, Il Sole 24 Ore. The guy with the microphone Federico Pedrocchi Moebius’ intent was to conduct an interview of participants and stimulate discussion.

      But I agree, any “demo” done tomorrow needs to be produced with a lot more detail.

    • Stephen

      I think the guy in white shirt was an employee of Defkalion… Luca Gamberale, apparently (source LinkedIn) a PhD in physics (maybe) who was before working at Pirelli cables, in Milan.

    • Gerrit

      it was turned on all the time, Joe

  • GreenWin

    The story authored by Brendon Gibbons in the Missourian, “MU to host international conference on cold fusion” is seemingly balanced until you check on their links. Gibbons supplies a link to the NSF funded University California Museum of Paleontology article on Fleischmann and Pons’ experiments that – “makes a case that the two acted immorally.”

    The article is heavily biased against F&P, essentially laying blame on them for every failure in cold fusion history. It is a remarkable document of “scapegoatism.” This is the line we expect from mainstream, ortho dox science unwilling to acknowledge its own unethical behavior. Typical of cold fusion hit pieces, there are no updates beyond circa 1992 and they reference the now-laughable books of Gary Taubes, and Johnnie Huizenga.

    To the Gibbons’ credit however are links to Naval Research Labs, the Defense Intelligence Agency, and Dr. Robert Duncan’s CBS 60 Minutes segment. The National Science Foundation which controls much science funding in the USA, seems to be last to admit its egregious failure in pursuing cold fusion. Their article emphasizes “A Scientist’s Code of Conduct” which includes the statement: “Play Fair: Act with scientific integrity.”

    It is certain to us the history of LENR aptly demonstrates the failure of mainstream science to act with “scientific integrity” toward cold fusion.

    • the article agains F&P is typical of “history written by the losers” as Nassim Nicholas taleb write
      http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?2043-How-MIT-discovered-LENR-in-2015-History-written-by-the-losers&highlight

      they prepare the explanation that there was no misconduct in bashing top electrochemist with 3 loose experiments done by incompetent team, in less than 6 week, then insulting them, blocking publication and funding, and bullying the dissenters so they abandon…

      they will admit the reality when the opposite is impossible, but they will do it blaming the victims of their misconducts.

      • Jim

        “The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceeding fine.”

        H3ll is brewed in our own minds, trying to reconcile our contradictions. These people may never escape that inner voice, perpetually seeking to justify the consequences of their actions.

      • Dr Bob

        We will see about that!

    • Gerrit

      to give the reader the opportunity to make up their own mind, you must provide them with sources to both sides of the story.

      I am very happy with this article and wish all science writers around the world would be able to write something similar like this.

      • clovis

        +1

      • GreenWin

        You’re right Gerrit. People need to make up their own minds given access to latest data and evidence. The NSF attack, “How Science Works” written by Candace Gilet appears to adopt the outdated opinions of Taub and Huizenga – circa 1993. A mountainous volume of peer reviewed studies confirming anomalous heat (in CF experiments) have been published since then.

        Ms Elizabeth Brixey, supervising editor for the Missourian, might have warned readers of the above facts. And it is curious that few mainstream CF articles ever reference Dr. Eugene Mallove, who was there in the trenches at MIT when they torpedoed P&F’s work with extreme prejudice.

        So far only the Missourian and Columbia Tribune have covered a conference that may have a viable answer to the planet’s energy crisis. An educated citizenry* is clearly not an interest of mainstream media.

        *Thomas Jefferson

    • Alan DeAngelis

      I’m sure the “Please, may I have a cup of tea?” boys will be telling us that they were completely wrong for all the right reason because they’re brilliant and F&P were “incompetent boobs”.

      • GreenWin

        In fact they are hard at work scheming different ways to say this very thing.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Yeah, they thought that they could just keep playing their pedigree card forever. The only people they can impress now are the totally stupid. The smug twerps never anticipated a Rossi.

      • Roger Bird

        I have already had a skeptopath say that he is thinking correctly (and us believers are not) and that if LENR turns out to be true then he was right all along to be thinking correctly. [[[never mind that he was wrong all along]]]

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Yeah, they’re infallible.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            P.S. And unlike us mere mortals who have complete failures once in a while, they fall short. “Last fall the two-year campaign at the National Ignition Facility to achieve a self-sustaining fusion reaction fell short.” (June 2013, Physics Today, page 20)

      • Dr Bob

        Dear Mr DeAngelis,

        I remember that video…
        Can you please post a link!

  • Roger Bird

    So when does it go up on YouTube so us late sleepers can see it?

    • Barry

      http://new.livestream.com/triwu2/Defkalion-ita hit the updates button. Unless you speak Italian, don’t expect too much. The real Defkalion show should be tomorrow.

      • Roger Bird

        It does not work for me. I doubt that it will work live. My operating system is Linux Mint 13, and a very few things won’t work. But everything else works great, including no viruses, ever.

  • artefact
  • georgehants

    Pre-Sentiments about Defkalion’s “Cold Fusion” Reactor Demonstration on July 22 in Milan.
    http://pesn.com/2013/07/23/9602344_Pre-Sentiments_about_Defkalions_Cold_Fusion_Reactor_Demonstration_July_22_in_Milan/

    • Giuliano Bettini

      Cold Fusion?
      Only an explosion with radioactive residuals would be convincing. 🙂
      (But I’m not sure…).

  • Blanco69

    “..while the exothermic reaction in the E-Cat (Hot E-Cat) is controlled by the presence of a catalyst, nell’R5 the reaction is triggered and modulated by a plasma discharge..”

    I was reading this comment by Luca Gamberale in Sterling’s astrologic “State of the Nation” summary and it struck me that, if both of these processes are true, then they are quite different. I think DGT are possibly doing Rossi a disservice by implying that Rossi’s reaction is controlled meerely by the presence of a catalyst. Even I’m sure that it’s a bit more complex than that. However, I did end up thinking that if both these products make it to market – Do you think we’ll end up with a sort of Betamax/VHS battle of formats until one becomes the ultimate victor?

    • fortyniner

      I think that if there is even more ‘overlap’ than has previously seemed to be the case then lawsuits are inevitable, and could seriously delay the introduction of both variants, leaving the field open to a ‘dark horse’.

    • Roger Bird

      I don’t think so. No one cares why or how it gets hot. The Betamax/VHS battle of formats meant that a customer had to choose which tape that one was going to rent or buy. There might be a battle over the shape of the inserts, but still the savings is so great that no one will care, I think.

  • Dr Bob

    Vattenfall will soon make a big news conference

    Would it not be funny if some of the journalists brought up Defkalions Cold Fusion Demo Later today. Maybe they will if we bring attention to it!

    Its possible to make comments on the article if you have an facebook account.
    http://www.aftonbladet.se/minekonomi/article17177590.ab

  • artefact

    It seems the livestream got a little shifted.

    Now at Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:00am EDT — Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:00pm EDT

    That is 16:00 CEST to 24:00 CEST

    The reason is given on 22Passi:
    http://22passi.blogspot.de/2013/07/per-gli-addetti-ai-lavori-e-per-gli.html