A Vision of a Cold Fusion/LENR Future — How to Adapt to Abundance?

Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed to the ‘how big a deal’ thread. It’s gotten a ton of comments, and sometimes those threads become somewhat unweildy, so I thought I’d start a new one and use the following thought-provoking comment by ‘friendlyprogrammer’ as a starting point. His/her post describes many things that I have certainly considered as being possible if cold fusion is what many of us believe it to be even though the picture he/she paints is alien to today’s reality. Here’s the post:

“Your car will be big enough to hold a bathroom because lets face it, all the service stations have closed.

“With travel becoming so cheap it will become the experience instead of the mode to reach an experience.

“A look to the skies will see Helium/hot air blimps that are floating hotels with no explosion risks. The rich will dispose of their sailing yachts (hint sell your sailboat now), and the poor will convert them to new energy. Someone with a 35′ sailboat known for ease of operation will now be comfortable driving a 200′ ship with a garden and a pool..

“Cities will need to limit vehicle sizes or everyone and their dog will drive a motor home to work. Why not go big if fuel costs are nothing.

“LENR/HHO will be UBER cheap very quickly, because the processes involved are less complicated than a dollar store flashlight, and a million unemployed from the Solar and Wind Energy sector will start building cheap knock offs in their basement. There will be no way to stop the pirating of this technology because of its simplicity. The demand will obviously outweigh any production capacity. i.e. would you go on a 10 year waiting list or build one yourself?

“600 million less smog producing vehicles will mean fresh country air in the heart of major cities. Less health damage equals longer lives for all.

“It will take some time for car manufacturers to adapt. Small electric cars will be too small. Big gas cars wont run on electricity so the solution will be hydrogen conversions to gas vehicles (possibly a trailer unit). Some suggest Steam cars will come first, but any car manufactured today is a result of a decade of research (more) and steam prototypes will be years off.

“Nobody will shovel their driveways or roads. Cars will have heaters under them to melt snow and ice. You can move your car around your driveway or just install heaters in the asphalt. Roofs will melt the snow the same way.

“Every roof and road will be white. With all our extra energy capacity even the solar effects of black roof shingles will be too much, and we will be better off reflecting that heat back into space. Artificial cloud cover might be created for similar effects.

“Off grid living will become popular. Since everyone has a huge ship and motor home why live in a house. I’m sure there are reasons, but I’ll be in the South Pacific Catching fish, Breeding Chickens, Desalinating water, and making my own wine aboard The HMS Friendlyprogrammer. I will be surrounded by a million others doing the same thing.

“Everything, everything, everything, will become cheaper. A $500 television will be much cheaper to produce. Imagine,,,, Every manufacturer of every nut, bolt, wire, chip, will pay less for transport (supplies and delivery), less for electricity, less for A/C, less for heat and these cheaper bolts will pass on savings to the next manufacturer so that $500 television is now in an ecat (or other) heated store selling for $75.
IMAGINE THE BUILDING BOOM. We will all have wall sized televisions for cheap.

“The Middle east will see a poverty strike them as their dependence on Oil Cash fails them. They will need to compete in a global market place and be forced to educate their women and adapt more responsible laws regarding religious tolerance. They will need to be liked for a change.

“Starvation will dissipate as cheap desalination provides clean water not only to people but can cheaply pump clean water into the soils of the earth. Cities in risk of collapsing into sinkholes (like Mexico City) can replenish their underwater reserves.

“A slow moving cruise ship will be replaced by hydrofoils or at least quadruple their speeds.

“I’d invest in electric motor companies. Magnet manufacturers. Boat builders. RV Builders, and avoid any energy investing. I would not invest in AR Rossi in case Blacklight wins. I would not invest in Brillouin in case Rossi wins. I would not invest in any of them until a winner is announced. Maybe it’s HHO.

“The days of burying a technology is over. Too many know about LENR/HHO/Blacklight Power (or whatever).. Internet has been a game changer in that regard. A mere 20 years ago we would be trying to find non existent library books about LENR as our only source of information.

“Bus shelters will be air conditioned and heated. Every park will have a play fountain.

“This is only a fraction of how I see the world in 10 years.”

My response to this post is, perhaps this could happen (although I’m not sure about in 10 years), but I wonder about the ability of societies to adapt to such a radical new technology, and all that it implies. How does any nation built on an economy, social system and political system designed to deal with the current reality of scarce resources adapt to a totally new reality where abundance of resources suddenly becomes possible?

I think that if and when CF becomes widely recognized as being a viable energy source there will be meetings of people in the highest levels of all kinds of organizations trying to figure out how to deal with this new reality. I don’t know what the prevailing response will be. Will it be to get behind this technology and use it for the benefit of the common person — or to try and put the brakes on in order to protect the status quo as much as possible? I would like to think the former, but I think we should prepare for the latter — at least in the early stages.

Like friendlyprogrammer says above, I don’t think the information can be hidden or suppressed in this day and age. If the regular person knows something is real and possible, I can’t imagine any forces of authority being able to keep it down. But I guess some could try (North Korea has been quite successful in maintaining rigid control over its people’s use of technology, for example).

The transition from a state of scarcity of resources to one of abundance could be one of the most difficult things the human race has faced — I hope we can make the journey successfully.

  • winebuff

    Sorry to burst your bubble but we have no commercial product and don’t know if there will ever be one.
    utopia is not just around the corner but the there is hope!

    • malkom700

      You are right. It is certain that the use of LENR will be strictly guided by the government, otherwise there would be anarchy energy. Before assessing the competition between fission and fusion let’s wait for the first commercial device for both sides. Of course while we remain proponents of LENR.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Government could not stop sales of Booze, Cigarettes, Pot. They will have little hope of stopping people from building an energy box if plans go online.

        • malkom700

          This is not about me stopping people from building an energy box in particular, but everything else, and especially the impact on the environment and anarchy.

  • winebuff

    Sorry to burst your bubble but we have no commercial product and don’t know if there will ever be one.
    utopia is not just around the corner but the there is hope!

    • malkom700

      You are right. It is certain that the use of LENR will be strictly guided by the government, otherwise there would be anarchy energy. Before assessing the competition between fission and fusion let’s wait for the first commercial device for both sides. Of course while we remain proponents of LENR.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Government could not stop sales of Booze, Cigarettes, Pot. They will have little hope of stopping people from building an energy box if plans go online.

        • malkom700

          This is not about me stopping people from building an energy box in particular, but everything else, and especially the impact on the environment and anarchy.

  • orsobubu

    As always, the error is to confuse the use value (“the society of abundance”) with the exchange value (which is surplus value, unpaid labor converted into money then capital). Since capitalism is based on exchange value (the use value is just an excuse to obtain exchange value), and because its production is subject to catastrophic crisis of overproduction, collapse of profit rate, unemployment etc, in a totally disconnected way by any specific technology, it follows that there will never be any society of abundance if – first – ​​a social transition to a production system other than capitalism will not be made. I have to express myself in vague terms to avoid moderation. Georgehants can complete my thought.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Capitalism in the current sense is doomed. Soon there will be only one rich man, there can be only one!
      If it gets that far, he will be king of the world, just before he is overrun and barbecued on his front lawn by an angry, hungry mob.

      • Job001

        Another likely possibility is local productivity will continue to improve and people’s robots will make everything they need. At that point the Kings will default(money, land, capital became worthless as happened during the Black Plague(workers quit, took over idle abandoned land, Kings had to garden, clean, and cook for themselves). Game over, push reset!

  • orsobubu

    As always, the error is to confuse the use value (“the society of abundance”) with the exchange value (which is surplus value, unpaid labor converted into money then capital). Since capitalism is based on exchange value (the use value is just an excuse to obtain exchange value), and because its production is subject to catastrophic crisis of overproduction, collapse of profit rate, unemployment etc, in a totally disconnected way by any specific technology, it follows that there will never be any society of abundance if – first – ​​a social transition to a production system other than capitalism will not be made. I have to express myself in vague terms to avoid moderation. Georgehants can complete my thought.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Capitalism in the current sense is doomed. Soon there will be only one rich man, there can be only one!
      If it gets that far, he will be king of the world, just before he is overrun and barbecued on his front lawn by an angry, hungry mob.

      • orsobubu

        Another possibility is that more kings will exist, one american king, one european king, one indian king, one russian king, one radioactive japanese king, one chinese king, etc, each with angry, hungry armies of poor soldiers behind them, and these armies, rather than overthrow their rulers, are sent to make war against the others, every one well equipped with powerful cold fusion weapons.

      • Job001

        Good point that when wealth concentrates totally, it is highly unstable.

        Another likely possibility is local productivity will continue to improve and people’s robots will make everything they need. At that point the Kings will default(money, land, capital became worthless as happened during the Black Plague(workers quit, took over idle abandoned land, Kings had to garden, clean, and cook for themselves). Also called “Creative Destruction” by Austrian American economist Joseph Schumpeter.

  • Christina

    People have been forecasting disaster for 60+ years now and we are still here and still free relative to the mess half the world’s people are in.

    My view is that one can work hard in one’s youth and safe–yes, even with children as they don’t need everything they want–so that one’s late middle and old age provide a modicum of comfort without the need to depend on Uncle Sam’s backhanded benevolence.

  • Thor

    I think Friendlyprogrammer is on to something, but I think he might be going overboard / off track with his giant RVs and snow melting driveways…

    I think what we’re looking at are a lot of very big changes.

    1) LENR means cheap power.
    2) Robotics (Google’s stepping things up here) means cheep labor.
    3) AI (Kurzweil projects human level AI by 2029) means cheap intelligence.

    What happens when you combine cheap energy with intelligent robots? All limiting factors get removed. By 2030, raw materials become the only limit on what we can build. And maybe not even that if they start mining asteroids.

    My bet is that we’re looking at complete socialism by 2040 with everyone receiving Mass/Energy allotments far in excess of what they need for basic survival. The excess can be traded for those few things that can’t be easily manufactured (land, location, entertainment, etc.)

  • Steve Peterson

    Why does everyone assume LENR will be virtually free? 99% of the US population would be thrilled if their electric bill was reduced by 1/2 or even 1/3. Still leaving massive profits for the monopolistic Utilities. You think the inventors of LENR are altruistic (maybe yes, maybe no). Either way, Big Business/Big Government will still have their way.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Forget Home bills. This will let vehicles run for months without refueling.

      What was the Rossi outlook. 1G on Nickel = 5 Barrels of oil? What is Blacklights take? A Jar of water can fuel 10 000 homes?

      Many of the LENR/HHO/BLP claims indicate electricity will be compact and at least 100X cheaper (TO BEGIN WITH).

      Once LENR is accepted trillions of dollars will be spent explaining and IMPROVING it. Notice how your computer has changed since 1976. In 1976 my TRS-80 had 16k memory and Android Nim was about the best game ever. Even if LENR/HHO does not improve 100X cheaper is pretty cheap.

      The inventors will be cheap or see the largest piracy of technology in history. This I mentioned. Who cares if Rossi or Mills is Altruistic. As soon as the first LENR plans goes public a million people will start their own pirating companies… Or you can wait on a 10 year waiting list for Rossi.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Just to point out an interesting new article from mainstream: WSJ
    http://online.wsj.com/article/APbee1ac181812439f856de93c116834ae.html

    A most incorrect (it seems to me) definition in it:

    “The amount of energy they got out of their experimental apparatus was minuscule compared to what they put into it”.

    • Chritina

      They’re talking about nuclear fusion, not cold fusion or low energy nuclear reaction, or the Rossi Effect, or whatever it turns out to be in the end.

      • atanguy

        No Christina,they are talking about hot fusion, cold fusion or LENR could be also the result of nuclear fusion as well but at a relatively very low temperature…

    • Ophelia Rump

      They fear for their funding: What was the breakthrough again, a release of energy from Hot Fusion?

      From Wikipedia:
      In 1991 the Preliminary Tritium Experiment at the Joint European Torus in England achieved the world’s first controlled release of fusion power.[52]

      There have been many more releases of energy since then.

      It may have been a first for their device, but it was not a first beyond their walls.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Thanks for pointing this out…

  • Christina

    Furthermore, the Constitution of the United States has been undermined almost from the first 30 years of its existence so that one group or another can gain power. We need to restructure to have a more equitable political system.

    Also, for advertising’s sake, a lot of countries’ revolutionaries said they were copying the U.S. Constitution; but they legislated flaws into it so the dictator could manipulate the law of his/her country.

    The precedence in law that we have was just an invention; it’s not part of the U.S. Constitution; yet it gives the ruling political party a lot of power if it can place judges in high offices over time. (Precedence is when a judge makes a judgement based on that made by a judge in the past.

    Frankly, I think our laws should be based on the Judeo-Christian ethics because most of us are Christian. Unfortunately, we’ve elected Socialists/Communists to our White House and Congress and they don’t behave like Christians when they pass laws. They cry that they are for the poor; who knows for what they really stand? I don’t think it’s the U.S. Constitution. Those who don’t approve of the Judeo-Christian ethic can either stay or go to another country because the majority will should rule not a few rebels who want to destroy the country.

    Thanks, Frank. I’m not certain you can print this; but I’m tired of people saying that capitalism and the Constitution are wrong when they’ve been thwarted for more than 100 years.

    P.S.: I’m not saying be so capitalistic that people get hurt by their employers. I’m saying let industry/innovators/inventors thrive.

    Everyone have a wonderful day and may God bless you all and may God bless the United States of America because she needs a boatload of blessings from God.

    • heath

      Really inappropriate for this site and very offensive.

      • atanguy

        Agree!

      • atanguy

        Right wing idiocies.

    • Bedroom_eyes

      If there’s two things that shouldn’t mix, it’s religion and politics.
      I think the middle-east is a great example.

      Keep god in your church and your politics in the white house.
      And whats wrong with the socialists? At least then didnt start a new war like certain people wanted…

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Just watched the
    third day of Swartz-Hagelstein MIT seminar, (I probably absorbed ¼ of info
    presented) but there does seem to be a major conflict/disagreement between
    Rossi and Swartz-Hagelstein. I am not
    sure if it has been discussed here… Swartz-Hagelstein indicate there is a problem
    with current physics theory, Rossi says no physics laws have been violated. I would think this is a huge conflict for
    LENR.

    • Buck

      I like the saying: “experiment trumps theory”.

      As long as the current LENR companies continue with their Edisonian process of developing a commercial device, I can be comfortable with arguments over LENR theory.

      • GreenWin

        Agree with all of you. When we observe the Sun’s corona to be millions of degrees hotter than its center – do we huff, “The measurements must be wrong?” Or do we accept our ignorance of cosmic dynamics and attempt to learn> something new?

        • Buck

          +1

    • Charles

      Skip the theory babblings, just give us the product. Please. Then we can spend the next 50 years figuring out the theory. Where are you Einstein, now that we really need you?

    • Job001

      Na, all the researchers “push their own book” and “lie” about each other when they assume the “marketing role”. Most are good hardworking fairly honest scientists(exceptionally few do fraud) especially when they aren’t forced by funding into “mendacious marketing”.

    • morse

      It is like James Watt building his first steam engine. The only thing he wanted to sell was power to the world. He didn’t care/bother much about the theory of thermodynamics. That came later by Nicolas Carnot.
      Same for Rossi, he wants a working machine and let other people understand and improve his e-cats for a greater COP.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Rossi seemed on several occasions to seem as if he has no Theoretical clue. He seems content that it works. Cavemen used fire with no correct Theory on it either, so it doesn’t matter to him.

  • E-dog

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2014/02/fusion-power-not-yet/
    Hi Girls and Guys.

    Interesting that this comes out at this particular time!

    • Charles

      They are still talking about “hot” fusion. The should get over the joke.

    • Job001

      Yep, these NIF folks have scammed us for 40 years, talking about doing hot fusion for the “GOOD OF MANKIND” when in reality it was nearly all “WAR research”. Any unbiased damned fool would switch funding to LENR+.

  • Quiet Wine Guy

    It is wonderful to indulge in the feeling that LENR equals abundance. However reality is under no obligation to honor our desire for feeling good or the delusion that the fundamental nature of man changes because a ‘new fire’ will presumably be brought into being.

    Goods and services will still cost hard earned money. It will still be necessary to understand what our customers want. For business managers managing the finances, the single component that will change is the effect of the cost of energy and its multiplier effect on getting work done, services delivered, and products made, packaged, and delivered to the downstream customer.

    The implementation of LENR will NOT be equivalent to humanity embracing the path embodied in Buddha’s Insight/Mindful Meditation or the lessons embodied in Saying 70 of the Gospel of Thomas.

    Even so, I can believe that the implementation of LENR will have a deep effect on our culture. It will enable some of us to change what we focus on, what we value as meaningful and worthy of pursuing, and what we now choose to assign to the dark history of bad and destructive ideals. And, as we are social creatures, we will talk about it, pursue what we value, and tell stories of our good actions with friends, neighbors, and anyone else who will listen.

    At the least, this means that the language Marketers will use, the stories they tell us explaining why we want their product/service, will change to reflect our ability to now condemn the effects of fossil energy as there is a viable solution . . . their product/service.

    But, LENR must first be implemented commercially before this process begins.

    • Job001

      Assume either your position is correct or edges toward “Normalcy Bias”. If and when energy becomes as ubiquitous as the air we breath then many many things we have difficulty imagining that are not possible with high priced energy become economical. Examples:
      Local waste disposal.
      Mining of landfills with separation of elements.
      Air delivery.
      Growing food indoors year around anywhere.
      Obtaining water or minerals from the Ocean.
      Making food, feed, and chemicals with atmospheric inputs CO2, O2, H2O.
      Agree that LENR must implement commercially at some point. Many find the wait aggravating.

      • Quiet Wine Guy

        Job0001,

        I can easily imagine that the activities you outline could and will come to be. And, yes I do have a ‘Normalcy Bias’ for the simple reason that LENR is a technological tool . . . it is not equivalent to a Utopian political movement of a constituency driving a change in the nature of legislated capitalism or legislated environmentalism.

        If people want to change the nature of legislated capitalism to, for example, the far more benign framework present at the inception of this republic, then LENR may aid as a lightening rod, but it is people who will have to organize to create the change.

        In addition, the term ‘abundance’ is probably inappropriate and brings a sense of caution to mind. IMO, humanity has a very poor record of dealing with ‘abundance’ as seen over the last 10,000 years. It is not part of our evolutionary skill set. Just look at a simple example like sugar or, more appropriately, the controlled and directed use of energy.

        It is fair to say that ‘all things in moderation’ describes what man needs to be mindful of. ‘Abundance’ opens the door to unrestrained fulfillment or the lack of need to consider consequences.

        • Job001

          Likewise, plus human adaptability and/or productivity emphasis and unintended consequences expected.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            ???

            I may be verbose, but your note appears to go to the other end of the ‘abundance’ scale to the point of being obscure, even abstruse.

          • Job001

            Noted, rewrote, thanks.

          • GreenWin

            Constructive dialog gents.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            +1

    • glenc

      Don’t forget the multiplier effect. For example we can mine our poo with vertical algae farms. Steralise the algae and feed it to feedlot cattle. At the moment that is cost probitative. Thus we have a new resoursce stream availbe to every city virtually overnight. It won’t be free but it will be very cheap. Close to the capital plus transport costs only.

  • Quiet Wine Guy

    It is wonderful to indulge in the feeling that LENR equals abundance. However reality is under no obligation to honor our desire for feeling good or the delusion that the fundamental nature of man changes because a ‘new fire’ will presumably be brought into being.

    Goods and services will still cost hard earned money. It will still be necessary to understand what our customers want. For business managers managing the operations, the single component that will change is the effect of the cost of energy and its multiplier effect on getting work done, services delivered, and products made, packaged, and delivered to the downstream customer.

    The implementation of LENR will NOT be equivalent to humanity embracing the path embodied in Buddha’s Insight Meditation or the lessons embodied in Saying 70 of the Gospel of Thomas.

    Even so, I can believe that the implementation of LENR will have a deep effect on our culture. It will enable some of us to change what we focus on, what we value as meaningful and worthy of pursuing, and what we now choose to assign to the dark history of bad and destructive ideals. And, as we are social creatures, we will talk about it, pursue what we value, and tell stories of our good actions with friends, neighbors, and anyone else who will listen.

    At the least, this means that the language Marketers will use, the stories they tell us explaining why we want their product/service, will change to reflect our ability to now condemn the effects of fossil energy as there is a viable solution . . . their product/service.

    But, LENR must first be implemented commercially before this process begins.

    • Job001

      Assume either your position is correct or edges toward “Normalcy Bias”. If and when energy becomes as ubiquitous as the air we breath then many many things we have difficulty imagining that are not possible with high priced energy become economical. Examples:
      Local waste disposal.
      Mining of landfills with separation of elements.
      Air delivery.
      Growing food indoors year around anywhere.
      Obtaining water or minerals from the Ocean.
      Making food, feed, and chemicals with atmospheric inputs CO2, O2, H2O.
      Agree that LENR must implement commercially at some point. Many find the wait aggravating.

      • Quiet Wine Guy

        Job0001,

        I can easily imagine that the activities you outline could and will come to be. And, yes I do have a ‘Normalcy Bias’ for the simple reason that LENR is a technological tool . . . it is not equivalent to a Utopian political movement driving a change in the nature of legislated capitalism or legislated environmentalism.

        If people want to change the nature of legislated capitalism to, for example, the far more benign framework present at the inception of this republic, then LENR may aid as a lightening rod, but it is people who will have to organize to create the change.

        In addition, the term ‘abundance’ is probably inappropriate and brings a sense of caution to mind. IMO, humanity has a very poor record of dealing with ‘abundance’ as seen over the last 10,000 years. It is not part of our evolutionary skill set. Just look at a simple example like sugar or, more appropriately, the controlled and directed use of energy.

        It is fair to say that ‘all things in moderation’ describes what man needs to be mindful of. ‘Abundance’ opens the door to unrestrained fulfillment or the lack of need to consider consequences.

        • Job001

          I agree while putting more emphasis on human adaptability and productivity vs the Malthusians while recognizing unintended consequences are normal.
          Abundance can be a big problem on many levels, health, depression, crime, substance abuse, morality, etc.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            ???

            I may be verbose, but your note appears to go to the other end of the ‘abundance’ scale to the point of being obscure, even abstruse. 😉

          • Job001

            Noted, rewrote, thanks.

          • GreenWin

            Constructive dialog gents.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            +1

    • glenc

      Don’t forget the multiplier effect. For example we can mine our poo with vertical algae farms. Steralise the algae and feed it to feedlot cattle. At the moment that is cost probitative. Thus we have a new resoursce stream availbe to every city virtually overnight. It won’t be free but it will be very cheap. Close to the capital plus transport costs only.

  • Charles

    Careful there, Admin. If all that stuff happens, we will have global warming due to the conversion of all that matter into energy. That c^2 in e=mc^2 is a really big multiplier. Yeah, I know the m is really small, nevertheless. . .

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Yes. I thought of that. I had mentioned Roof Shingles and Roads would become White. I have to believe that with abundant energy we will be able to mechanically remove heat/energy from our atmosphere with mechanical means.

      Your point is a scary one, but true. I think we will adapt.

      • Fortyniner

        All the chemical and nuclear energy we use is ultimately derived from the conversion of minute amounts of mass to energy. Human energy release is insignificant alongside solar input, and in any case a balance is automatically struck due to icreased outgoing infrared radiation at higher temperatures. Nothing will change unless we massively increase our energy usage through pointless waste.

  • Charles

    Careful there, Admin. If all that stuff happens, we will have global warming due to the conversion of all that matter into energy. That c^2 in e=mc^2 is a really big multiplier. Yeah, I know the m is really small, nevertheless. . .

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Yes. I thought of that. I had mentioned Roof Shingles and Roads would become White. I have to believe that with abundant energy we will be able to mechanically remove heat/energy from our atmosphere with mechanical means.

      Your point is a scary one, but true. I think we will adapt.

      • All the chemical and nuclear energy we use is ultimately derived from the conversion of minute amounts of mass to energy. Human energy release is insignificant alongside solar input, and in any case a balance is automatically struck due to increased outgoing infrared radiation at higher temperatures. Nothing will change unless we massively increase our energy usage through pointless waste.

  • Allan Shura
    • BroKeeper

      Yes, that sounds like a great deal. 17.3KW/second X 4250 parallel fusion reactors = 20KWHs. Let’s assume an E-Cat cost $500/KWH. We would need two 10KWH E-Cats to equal 20KWHs at $10,000.
      Hmmm….which one do I want to purchase? Yep load my truck with 4250 of those hot babies, please.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Yay, now they are only 50 years away.. Sigh.

  • Allan Shura
    • Brokeeper

      Yes, that sounds like a great deal. 17.3KW/second X 4250 parallel fusion reactors at $20 Billion a pop = 20KWHs for $85 Trillion. Let’s assume an E-Cat cost $500/KWH. We would need two 10KWH E-Cats to equal 20KWHs at $10,000. Hmmm….which one do I want to purchase? Yep load my truck with 4250 of those hot babies, please. Oh by-the-way could you add air to my tires?

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Yay, now they are only 50 years away.. Sigh.

  • Charles

    Skip the theory babblings, just give us the product. Please. Then we can spend the next 50 years figuring out the theory. Where are you Einstein, now that we really need you?

  • mcloki

    Let me speculate as well.
    1. Travel booms. Cheap air travel opens up huge possibilities for tourism.
    2. Space business booms. Easier access to space and easier space propulsion make Asteroid mining and smelting very lucrative.
    3. Vertical farming takes off. Greenhouses take off. While transport costs go down it’s still easier to produce locally.
    4. Cities stop growing. Since it’s very easy now to live off the grid, telecommute and cheaper to live reasonably. Why live in the city.
    5. Huge dollars will be spent reclaiming old mine, oil and gas sites. These are all polluted and the cleanup will be Superfund territory.
    6. Cars will not grow in size. They will become smaller and more personal. Smaller to fit more cars on current infrastructure. being able to buy a small electric vehicle that needs no financial outlay for 2-3 years due to refuelling costs means more disposable vehicles.
    7. LENR + Self Driving Transports will make it possible to outlaw Transports during business hours. All deliveries will be make at night.
    8. Governments really have to look hard at taxation. No gas taxes and private electricity generation reduce revenue. Making things cheaper mean that less people will need to be in the workforce. May see a mass exodus of men/women and seniors from the employment market. Women/Men opting to raise children at home. Seniors being able to retire on smaller savings.
    9. WAR. It will be inevitable. Every great technological change will create a power imbalance. The first country that buys/creates long term loiter air platforms, remotely operated drone strike fleets and robotic infantry will use it against their enemies. Why. Because they can. Less loss of life on their side will make them feel they can win.
    10. Eventual peace and prosperity.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      So workers all have to stay late and wait for the trucks that come at night? Not much fun. Every business relies on deliveries.

      You can have your tiny cars, but I want a Winnebago… A Winnebago towing a HUGE car, AND a boat. Since I’m not paying any extra for fuel I see no reason to downsize. Electric cars currently are small because they need batteries, but if we generate power on board then batteries can kiss my butt goodbye.

      With less money siphoned off to middle east, more money will be spent on the much cheaper products at home. I agree technology does lead to unemployment in time, but this will start a boom previously unheard of The $100+ you spend on fuel every Month/Week can be better spent on (Wine,Women,Song) your children’s fashions.

      Why would any nation send drones to fight.. Don’t they know we have “The Bomb”… I think any nation going to war nowadays is risking their own annihilation a lot more.

      I will agree with points 1,2,3,4,5,10…

      • mcloki

        Just deliver the trailer and it waiting there in the morning. No driver so who cares how long the machine has to wait.
        Why use drones, tactical advantage, fight at night in total darkness. 24 hour fight capability.

        • friendlyprogrammer

          I used to manage a huge Bindery with trucks coming and going constantly. Our bay was big, but you are suggesting they all abandon their loads and empty trailers in our parking lot.
          Having been a production manager who has begged logistics companies to keep their drivers in our bay for an extra hour while we finish and wrap the last two skids I see fault with this idea.

          Maybe your drones can be used to deliver. That would solve your dilemma with trucks.

          A nation will not attack another nation simply because they can do it with robots and drones. Could you imagine if anyone tried that against USA, China, or Russia? Some tactical advantage they would have after all their loved ones vanish in a radioactive cloud.

          You did not grasp this point the first time I explained (see my previous post)), so I will say it again. Owning a drone does not give any nation an advantage in this day and age. As it is soldiers are mainly used for patrolling and peace keeping and policing. They are never on front lines. Every country already has drones and we don’t see what you predict.

          Computers was a great technological change (your point 9), and it did not cause war.

          Sigh.. I did agree with you on 6/10 points though..

  • kasom

    i share all the whishes of abundancy in my wildest dream, but i know, that all the gov’s will find new taxes, an energy police to inspect your house an so on……….

    everything to pamper the gov’s greedy people…..

    • BuildItNow

      How fast will LENR / Cold Fusion be adopted. Consider that in 1909, the New York Times was denying heavier than air flight, that had first occurred in 1901. In 1910, promotors convinced the Wright brothers to fly over Paris. Europe went crazy, front page headlines all over Europe … not a word in the US press. Within a year it was estimated that millions were working on aircraft design. 6 years later we had fighter planes for the 1st world war.
      That is 1910 speed, how fast will 2014 speed be? (The above dates could be off by a year … working from memory).

      • mcloki

        Once that first Mw generator goes for sale. Let a million Kickstarters bloom

      • Warthog

        Right you are. My mother was born when short distance transport was either “shanks mare” or a real horse (and buggy). She lived through all the innovations including putting a man on the moon. And she adapted easily to all of them. THE main thing humans do bettter than anything else is adapt. It’s what got them out of equatorial Africa and on the moon.

        • right. In corps there is fashion to help lower employees to adapt to change… the ideas that employees have difficulties to adapt…
          experts in change management remins those managers that the work have hugely changed and most lower employees adapted, to IT, to Internet, to competition, to different managements methods…
          and some explain that those who dis not adapt are the manager, and I add the politicians…

          we can adapt easily to cheap energy… but can our politicians, our top managers adapt to that ? will they be made redundant ? If one can be his own boss, follwoing the need of his clients, finding organization that optimize his tiny business… asking help when needed to organizers… organizing mutual organization when needed…
          Governments, politicians, corps, executives don’t want to die, so they convince you that you have a problem with change, and they have the solution.

          in a way they adapt, not to change their business.

  • Job001

    Yep, these NIF folks have scammed us for 40 years, talking about doing hot fusion for the “GOOD OF MANKIND” when in reality it was nearly all “WAR research”. Any unbiased damned fool would switch funding to LENR+.

  • Job001

    Na, all the researchers “push their own book” and “lie” about each other when they assume the “marketing role”. Most are good hardworking fairly honest scientists(exceptionally few do fraud) especially when they aren’t forced by funding into “mendacious marketing”.

  • Kennethsson

    In a lot of countries energy is heavily taxed since the government need the money. That will not change so maybe your energy will not be as cheap as you imagine.
    Energy equals work. If we can replace manual labour with cheap automated processes or industrial robots (and we will) a lot of people will lose their income. This calls for big changes in society or we will end up with a lot of poor people who will surely fight for their piece of the cake. Everyone need a minimum income to support themselves even if everything becomes cheaper thanks to lower production costs. We need time to adjust to an abundance of cheap energy. Sudden changes will create a lot of problems.
    In the long run I believe cheap and clean energy is a good thing.

    • nightcreature3

      The European initiative for Unconditional Basic Income can be found here:

      http://www.basicincomeinitiative.eu/

      I believe the Swiss have a head start, with an initiative of their own.

      And the citizens of Dubai are already there!

    • Private Citizen

      Asimov’s Foundation trilogy had fusion reactors the size of peanuts. Will be interesting to see what the lower bound will be on size, and the upper on energy density.

      If LENR does come true, i’d expect quite a long period of patent trolling, government attempting to keep it out of the hands of the public, attempts at heavy taxation to support “stranded assets.”

      Early implementation probably won’t be as nearly cost free as the utopians here dream, especially if it tends to be monopolized. The price at first will be what the market will bear.

      The likelihood of a dystopia are as real as utopia–but we’ll probably get a mix.

      The convergence of cheap energy with near-AI and advanced robotics will severely limit the need for human labor. Entire industries will also go under, while some new ones develop. I am not expecting those who prosper from the automation to hand me a share of the wealth. Expect greater unemployment and dependence on handouts to survive.

      Those without water to drink or fertilizer to farm in the 3rd world will survive and replicate in tremendous numbers, as long to the extent there is the minimum available resources to survive and breed.

      It does open up interesting possibilities of living state-free on the oceans.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      The Governments will be forced to raise Income, sales, and property taxes to cover any Energy Profit loses, but they will also be off the hook for providing Trillions of dollars for Energy Infrastructures, so there might be some balance.

  • Kennethsson

    In a lot of countries energy is heavily taxed since the government need the money. That will not change so maybe your energy will not be as cheap as you imagine.
    Energy equals work. If we can replace manual labour with cheap automated processes or industrial robots (and we will) a lot of people will lose their income. This calls for big changes in society or we will end up with a lot of poor people who will surely fight for their piece of the cake. Everyone need a minimum income to support themselves even if everything becomes cheaper thanks to lower production costs. We need time to adjust to an abundance of cheap energy. Sudden changes will create a lot of problems.
    In the long run I believe cheap and clean energy is a good thing.

    • nightcreature3

      The European initiative for Unconditional Basic Income can be found here:

      http://www.basicincomeinitiative.eu/

      I believe the Swiss have a head start, with an initiative of their own.

      And the citizens of Dubai are already there!

    • friendlyprogrammer

      The Governments will be forced to raise Income, sales, and property taxes to cover any Energy Profit loses, but they will also be off the hook for providing Trillions of dollars for Energy Infrastructures, so there might be some balance.

  • BuildItNow

    How fast will LENR / Cold Fusion be adopted. Consider that in 1909, the New York Times was denying heavier than air flight, that had first occurred in 1901. In 1910, promotors convinced the Wright brothers to fly over Paris. Europe went crazy, front page headlines all over Europe … not a word in the US press. Within a year it was estimated that millions were working on aircraft design. 6 years later we had fighter planes for the 1st world war.
    That is 1910 speed, how fast will 2014 speed be? (The above dates could be off by a year … working from memory).

    • mcloki

      Once that first Mw generator goes for sale. Let a million Kickstarters bloom

    • Warthog

      Right you are. My mother was born when short distance transport was either “shanks mare” or a real horse (and buggy). She lived through all the innovations including putting a man on the moon. And she adapted easily to all of them. THE main thing humans do bettter than anything else is adapt. It’s what got them out of equatorial Africa and on the moon.

      • right. In corps there is fashion to help lower employees to adapt to change… the ideas that employees have difficulties to adapt…
        experts in change management remins those managers that the work have hugely changed and most lower employees adapted, to IT, to Internet, to competition, to different managements methods…
        and some explain that those who dis not adapt are the manager, and I add the politicians…

        we can adapt easily to cheap energy… but can our politicians, our top managers adapt to that ? will they be made redundant ? If one can be his own boss, follwoing the need of his clients, finding organization that optimize his tiny business… asking help when needed to organizers… organizing mutual organization when needed…
        Governments, politicians, corps, executives don’t want to die, so they convince you that you have a problem with change, and they have the solution.

        in a way they adapt, not to change their business.

  • SiriusMan

    The Chinese premier wants a country-wide roll-out of electric cars:

    http://www.rtcc.org/2014/01/29/china-pm-calls-for-national-roll-out-of-electric-vehicles/

    ..but how are they going to charge all of those cars? Burning more coal will generate even more smog & pollution. Is the current Chinese electricity grid robust enough the handle the extra load? Maybe they need a new distributed power source to make this happen?

    …so just maybe those recent reports of high-level meetings with Chinese officials on the topic of LENR technology have some relevance here? If so, I wish Premier Li Keqiang would come out and just say it! Even having him say that word would be enough to send major shockwaves through western world.

  • SiriusMan

    The Chinese premier wants a country-wide roll-out of electric cars:

    http://www.rtcc.org/2014/01/29/china-pm-calls-for-national-roll-out-of-electric-vehicles/

    ..but how are they going to charge all of those cars? Burning more coal will generate even more smog & pollution. Is the current Chinese electricity grid robust enough the handle the extra load? Maybe they need a new distributed power source to make this happen?

    …so just maybe those recent reports of high-level meetings with Chinese officials on the topic of LENR technology have some relevance here? If so, I wish Premier Li Keqiang would come out and just say it! Even having him say that word would be enough to send major shockwaves through western world.

  • kdk

    Blacklight has been waiting for the other ‘free-energy’ devices to get close to market, IMHO. It’s long ties to the MEIC are quite clear. Not necessarily a personal criticism of Mr. Mills. Rossi has been griefed to the point where the huge majority of people would have given up, been shut down, or suffered unfortunate accidents. The IH guys are probably getting their share, and will get more in the future with battles over its safety and obvious PR flak from the mainstream. Big Money will be fighting over private stakes in Blacklight and maybe IH, and Brilluoin, before they go public. The market will initially suffer a pretty bad crash, IMHO. Social unrest ensues. It will be important for it to be peaceful, but I don’t expect TPTB to give up w/o a fight. Longer term, much better world… it’s been put off because of the erosion of privately hoarded money and power with social unrest with the market crash as the excuse for decades already, supported by their high-standing shills in academia… hopefully we will finally start to disarm nukes and clean up nuclear waste just waiting around for a crazy person and situation to make use of them. Afterwards, we will have a new Renaissance.

  • kdk

    Blacklight has been waiting for the other ‘free-energy’ devices to get close to market, IMHO… at least, their problems will be solved quickly once manpower is thrown into it. Its long ties to the MIC are quite clear. Not necessarily a personal criticism of Mr. Mills for trying to work in the system. Rossi has been griefed to the point where the huge majority of people would have given up, been shut down, or suffered unfortunate accidents. The IH guys are probably getting their share, and will get more in the future with battles over its safety and obvious PR flak from the mainstream. Big Money will be vying over private stakes in Blacklight and maybe IH, and Brilluoin, before they go public. The market will initially suffer a pretty bad crash, IMHO. Social unrest ensues. It will be important for it to be peaceful, but I don’t expect TPTB to just let go. Longer term, much better world… it’s been put off because of the erosion of privately hoarded money and power with social unrest with the market crash as the excuse for decades already, supported by their high-standing shills in academia… hopefully we will finally start to disarm nukes and clean up nuclear waste just waiting around for a crazy person and situation to make use of them. Afterwards, we will have a new Renaissance.

  • Daniel Maris

    OK – we’re in a slow news period! We all know it…

    I think most of us are waiting on something positive from Industrial Heat. That’s where the next big story is in my view. If we never hear from Industrial Heat we’ll know the whole Rossi technology was a scam and a fake.

    So roll on some good news from IH. If we get that we truly will be entering into a new age.

    • Omega Z

      Using a multiple of Data sets can give a different perspective verses focusing on a single set. Thus, I grow less & less concerned with the Population Growth. According to Data, It appears we are already turning the corner. The Talking heads just haven’t caught up to it yet.

      As in China’s Projected population leveling in 2050 may level 25 years earlier & may be in decline by 2050. India is following close behind. This is the trend. Japan has already started the decline as of their last census.

      Even in Countries still experiencing population growth, That growth is declining. From 5 & 6%, to 2 & 3%. And a 3% growth in a country of 20 to 30 million is far less concerning then a similar growth rate in a Country of say 1.5 Billion. And there’s no visible reason to think this trend will not continue. A few centuries from now, we may need to depend on test tube births & cloning to maintain a viable society.

      As to the projections of population “Leveling” at about 9 Billion, I would insert “Peaking” but that could still be disputed at present.
      Now, with the pace of change in this Data, One could argue that we may not reach 9 Billion. But I think that would be a mistake to take that for granted. A family with 3 or 4 children have a higher survival rate verses a family with 8 or 9 children. You also have improving medical technology. Populations are living longer. Both will act as an Offset in Data.

      Jobs in the Future.
      Projections at this time is that there will only be 1 worker to Provide & take care of “3” of his fellow beings. This due to an aged society. There’s Children of course, the Retired, & largely, those who no longer have the capacity to physically fend for themselves.

      What Leisure time will there be. I can envision much neglect & misery. The Modern technology, AI, Robots will be much needed to carry the burden. Without them the future looks bleak. If there is a job problem, it will be a lack of education & training. Not for a lack of jobs. Technology can save society.

      If the less likely, but possible Scenario comes about. Zillions of workers displaced by Technology, It requires a change of mind think. Technically, the answer is easy. Just Change the Economic Model.

      “Technically” I’d like to believe it is this Easy.
      Philosophically, Ideologically, It will likely be very Disruptive & Very Hard on Society, as people resist change. Especially when it goes against 1000’s of years engrained tradition that allowed us to survive to this point in time. But I would prefer this scenario to a system which does not embrace the technology. This scenario is survivable. The Former scenario without technology, possibly not.

      • Omega Z

        The Middle East pacified through oil dollars.TRUE, That was the purpose of the petroldollar.

        I doubt The U.S or Europe will turn their back on them.
        The U.S learned from WWII that Oceans can’t protect you.

        And I wouldn’t worry. It will actually take quite along time for the transition & they’ll have plenty of time to transition before the Petrodollars dry up. Or at least greatly decline. Oil will be need as far as one can see. Just less of it.

        With LENR, they’ll be able to take care of their own. Water, food, Energy, It then just becomes normal commerce overtime.

  • Private Citizen

    Asimov’s Foundation trilogy had fusion reactors the size of peanuts. Will be interesting to see what the lower bound will be on size, and the upper on energy density.

    If LENR does come true, i’d expect quite a long period of patent trolling, government attempting to keep it out of the hands of the public, attempts at heavy taxation to support “stranded assets.”

    Early implementation probably won’t be as nearly cost free as the utopians here dream, especially if it tends to be monopolized. The price at first will be what the market will bear.

    The likelihood of a dystopia are as real as utopia–but we’ll probably get a mix.

    The convergence of cheap energy with near-AI and advanced robotics will severely limit the need for human labor. Entire industries will also go under, while some new ones develop, but with little need for human capital. I am not expecting those who prosper from the automation to hand me a share of the wealth, just as they are not now, in times of increasing wealth inequality. Expect greater unemployment and dependence on handouts to survive.

    Those without water to drink or fertilizer to farm in the 3rd world will survive and replicate in tremendous numbers, to the extent there are the minimum available resources to survive and breed.

    It does open up interesting possibilities of living state-free on the oceans.

  • Obvious

    People will probably respond the way most people do in the presence of excess without disincentives to its use: abuse and waste it, acting as though there is infinite supply.

  • Obvious

    People will probably respond the way most people do in the presence of excess without disincentives to its use: abuse and waste it, acting as though there is infinite supply.

  • Sandy

    Manufacturing with robots will become more economical as LENR technologies reduce the cost of electricity. Since fewer workers will be needed, the length of the full work day will be reduced from 8 hours to 4 hours.

  • Brokeeper

    It’s all about natural laws seeking equilibrium. A plucked guitar string will eventually come to rest, water will seeks its own level, and causal civil unrest will eventually subside, but at what cost? Perhaps we all have been lulled to sleep with a redirected perception of slavery – from humans in chains to the economically depressed in debt – both constrained by arrogant mogul capitalist (I’m not talking about unselfish business leaders).

    What LENR offers is hope of relief from the outward forces of those economical inequalities by releasing those restrained forces as a released string seeks its center. The question is how quickly will those forces be released? If LENR is introduced too quickly will there be a greater disruptiveness in people’s lives, but if introduced too slowly will it give those despots more time to regain control? IMO the McScrooges missed their opportunity years ago by listening to the pious scientists and allowing LENR to spread the globe to where no one power can prevent or control it. There will be some disruption but eventually for social betterment. Purchasing power will be more equally distributed, more products will be in demand, opportunities and employment will increase to provide those products. Am I talking about utopia? No, just another chance to make it right.

    • Quiet Wine Guy

      +1

    • GreenWin

      Very nicely articulated Bro. Thank you.

      • Brokeeper

        Thanks Bro. If it were not for all my other brothers here providing a piece of the mosaic puzzle like yourself the macro vision would be much more cloudy. We have a great family here, warts and all. Thank you all.

  • robyn wyrick

    I’m an optimist, and I think the story with Cold Fusion is going to end very well.

    However, I think there is a very profound question that begs addressing: even if CF produces virtually unlimited and radically low cost energy, why should we think it will change anything?

    Here’s the thing, I think that, materially, as a species, we have the capacity right now – even without Cold Fusion – to provide every person in the world with food, housing, education, medical care, peace, security, and opportunity.

    But we don’t.

    I actually think we have had this material capacity, as a species, for over a hundred years. But we don’t enhance it to enrich everyone, we squander it to enrich some. Usually we expropriate prosperity and labor from most people to enrich a very few.

    What reason is there to think that a Cold Fusion game changer, that multiplies our material ability, will have any effect on our demonstrated lack of social or civic ability?

    I follow trends, and as I see it, the material capacity for shared prosperity is growing at an exponential rate.

    However, in the face of that profound race for prosperity, we see growing inequality. The super rich (whether dictators in Saudi Arabia or corporate raiders in NY) are happily stoking wars, fostering division, spreading lies, stifling innovation, and expanding their shares at the expense of anyone in their way.

    When robotics and advanced AI become the norm, will those labor savers and problem solvers work to benefit the few? Will the life extension technologies be available to gated communities only? Who will have jobs when robots are better at customer service or programming computers? When they’re better at practicing medicine or teaching elementary school? What happens to people when algorithms write books and poetry so beautiful that owners make billions, but nobody does any work?

    Among the super rich there have always been genuine philanthropists. But more often there have been self-promoters and self-protectors.

    Right now we have nations whose official policy is that, if they are attacked, they have the right to destroy all life on Earth. If Cold Fusion produces material opportunities to end want forever, why should we imagine that vested interests will not destroy the world rather than allow it?

    Now, as I mentioned above, I’m an optimist. But this question remains unanswered.

    • GreenWin

      Good questions. With one caveat. Who is “WE?” The actions you speak of are largely taken by a literal handful of oligarchs (elites, puppeteers, NWOs etc.) WE the people in the United States have not been represented in the actions of our government for at least 20 years – more likely 50 years. Review the parting speech of President Eisenhower, who stated rather clearly, the military industrial complex has usurped the US Constitution – placing controlling powers of knowledge in the hands of the MIC. He was right.

      • georgehants

        “Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness.”
        ~Alejandro Jodorowsky

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Computers have hurt jobs as much as anything robots can do over the next few decades. Simply scanning your groceries (in my day we had price tags) lowers needs for more checkouts, inventory counters, pricers (with pricing guns), accountants, and all those people who had to order the food. Nowadays the scanned product is identified by bar code, subtracted from inventory (even theft is calculated to a point), The item is added to order sheets, Prices are calculated by demand, Checkouts are 3 times as fast (or more). The computer knows when people scan in and out for paycheque direct deposits (they used to print and sign cheques after adding hours manually).

      As a teenager I spent a summer feeding Phone Book Covers into a Press. Remember phone books? Remember pay phones? Heck… My dad used to set up bowling pins when he was a kid.

      Hospitals now use robots to deliver food and laundry between floors. See TUG….

      I tell my children only one thing … Make sure their jobs are relevant in 30 years. Even bus drivers will sit on automated buses on their way to the welfare office.

      I used to design Wedding websites as a lucrative hobby business, but soon software came out at 1/4 of my rate that designed the couple a better website than I was offering and even had a quiz about the bride and groom…. Sigh..

      Yes technology takes more jobs than it replaces. Governments have 3 choices.. Jail the masses because the are unemployed, poor, starving and steal…. OR… They can resolve to increase welfare… OR…. they can give everyone stupid Government jobs like “Tree talkers” who wander around talking to government trees to help them grow better (i am exaggerating).

      Technology is going that route anyways, and will happen with or without LENR/HHO/BLP. The main thing LENR will do that is bound to help us is keep our dollars in our country, and less of it being spent on Indoor ski facilities in Dubai (Yes they ski indoors, its a desert ya know).

      It cannot make things worse. Every reason to be optimistic here.

      • kdk

        The thing about LENR is that it’s going to hurt TPTB more than anyone else. Oil and their bankers. It’s really the best chance we have of taking back our government, even though the same people will be initially be in power, their self-serving interests will just be made clear if they continue to try to fight LENR.

    • kdk

      “Here’s the thing, I think that, materially, as a species, we have the capacity right now – even without Cold Fusion – to provide every person in the world with food, housing, education, medical care, peace, security, and opportunity.

      But we don’t.”

      Most people don’t seem to realize that. The system is rather conveniently set up to be self-perpetuating, with a long line of crises to put the Fear into the populace to make them manageable. This is the goal of the Universal Basic Income, where nations re-nationalize their own banks and throw off the Fed and IMF. The problem stems from the people/corporations with the huge excess of money hoarding it instead of spreading it around more.

  • robyn wyrick

    I’m an optimist, and I think the story with Cold Fusion is going to end very well.

    However, I think there is a very profound question that begs addressing: even if CF produces virtually unlimited and radically low cost energy, why should we think it will change anything?

    Here’s the thing, I think that, materially, as a species, we have the capacity right now – even without Cold Fusion – to provide every person in the world with food, housing, education, medical care, peace, security, and opportunity.

    But we don’t.

    I actually think we have had this material capacity, as a species, for over a hundred years. But we don’t enhance it to enrich everyone, we squander it to enrich some. Usually we expropriate prosperity and labor from most people to enrich a very few.

    What reason is there to think that a Cold Fusion game changer, that multiplies our material ability, will have any effect on our demonstrated lack of social or civic ability?

    I follow trends, and as I see it, the material capacity for shared prosperity is growing at an exponential rate.

    However, in the face of that profound race for prosperity, we see growing inequality. The super rich (whether dictators in Saudi Arabia or corporate raiders in NY) are happily stoking wars, fostering division, spreading lies, stifling innovation, and expanding their shares at the expense of anyone in their way.

    When robotics and advanced AI become the norm, will those labor savers and problem solvers work to benefit the few? Will the life extension technologies be available to gated communities only? Who will have jobs when robots are better at customer service or programming computers? When they’re better at practicing medicine or teaching elementary school? What happens to people when algorithms write books and poetry so beautiful that owners make billions, but nobody does any work?

    Among the super rich there have always been genuine philanthropists. But more often there have been self-promoters and self-protectors.

    Right now we have nations whose official policy is that, if they are attacked, they have the right to destroy all life on Earth. If Cold Fusion produces material opportunities to end want forever, why should we imagine that vested interests will not destroy the world rather than allow it?

    Now, as I mentioned above, I’m an optimist. But this question remains unanswered.

    • GreenWin

      Good questions. With one caveat. Who is “WE?” The actions you speak of are largely taken by a literal handful of oligarchs (elites, puppeteers, NWOs etc.) WE the people in the United States have not been represented in the actions of our government for at least 20 years – more likely 50 years. Review the parting speech of President Eisenhower, who stated rather clearly, the military industrial complex has usurped the US Constitution – placing controlling powers of knowledge in the hands of the MIC. He was right.

      • georgehants

        “Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness.”
        ~Alejandro Jodorowsky

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Computers have hurt jobs as much as anything robots can do over the next few decades. Simply scanning your groceries (in my day we had price tags) lowers needs for more checkouts, inventory counters, pricers (with pricing guns), accountants, and all those people who had to order the food. Nowadays the scanned product is identified by bar code, subtracted from inventory (even theft is calculated to a point), The item is added to order sheets, Prices are calculated by demand, Checkouts are 3 times as fast (or more). The computer knows when people scan in and out for paycheque direct deposits (they used to print and sign cheques after adding hours manually).

      As a teenager I spent a summer feeding Phone Book Covers into a Press. Remember phone books? Remember pay phones? Heck… My dad used to set up bowling pins when he was a kid.

      Hospitals now use robots to deliver food and laundry between floors. See TUG….

      I tell my children only one thing … Make sure their jobs are relevant in 30 years. Even bus drivers will sit on automated buses on their way to the welfare office.

      I used to design Wedding websites as a lucrative hobby business, but soon software came out at 1/4 of my rate that designed the couple a better website than I was offering and even had a quiz about the bride and groom…. Sigh..

      Yes technology takes more jobs than it replaces. Governments have 3 choices.. Jail the masses because the are unemployed, poor, starving and steal…. OR… They can resolve to increase welfare… OR…. they can give everyone stupid Government jobs like “Tree talkers” who wander around talking to government trees to help them grow better (i am exaggerating).

      Technology is going that route anyways, and will happen with or without LENR/HHO/BLP. The main thing LENR will do that is bound to help us is keep our dollars in our country, and less of it being spent on Indoor ski facilities in Dubai (Yes they ski indoors, its a desert ya know).

      I think “vested interests” have had decades to spread their oil wealth into shares of McDonalds, Apple, and Pepsi. Even oil tycoons likely want a greener planet for their rich heirs. The writing is on the wall.

      It cannot make things worse. Every reason to be optimistic here.

      • kdk

        The thing about LENR is that it’s going to hurt TPTB more than anyone else. Oil and their bankers. It’s really the best chance we have of taking back our government, even though the same people will be initially be in power, their self-serving interests will just be made clear if they continue to try to fight LENR.

    • kdk

      “Here’s the thing, I think that, materially, as a species, we have the capacity right now – even without Cold Fusion – to provide every person in the world with food, housing, education, medical care, peace, security, and opportunity.

      But we don’t.”

      Most people don’t seem to realize that. The system is rather conveniently set up to be self-perpetuating, with a long line of crises to put the Fear into the populace to make them manageable. This is the goal of the Universal Basic Income, where nations re-nationalize their own banks and throw off the Fed and IMF. The problem stems from the people/corporations with the huge excess of money hoarding it instead of spreading it around more.

    • Christina

      I also agree that we could feed and house everyone in the world now. How do we do it? Who does it? With what education system for the poor nations. When we gave money/materials to the poor nations in the past, their soldiers used to food, even baby food, to feed themselves while the worked to make their country communist. How do we convince poor, uneducated people that we want to help them by giving them cold fusion? They don’t trust us.

      I think the best way to do so is to do it through the organizations which are already helping them: missionaries, Doctors Without Borders, nurses, midwives, etc. Train first the medical staffs which help the poor in each country. It’s just a thought as I am really too far removed from there to help. But I think the westerners already in the poor countries trying to help the people there should introduce lenr. They should educate the people on how to run a city that has enough energy and teach them how to use it to get enough food, water, education, etc.

  • atanguy

    Agree!

  • atanguy

    No Christina,they are talking about hot fusion, cold fusion or LENR could be also the result of nuclear fusion as well but at a relatively very low temperature…

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Rossi seemed on several occasions to seem as if he has no Theoretical clue. He seems content that it works. Cavemen used fire with no correct Theory on it either, so it doesn’t matter to him.

  • atanguy

    Right wing idiocies.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Forget Home bills. This will let vehicles run for months without refueling.

    What was the Rossi outlook. 1G on Nickel = 5 Barrels of oil? What is Blacklights take? A Jar of water can fuel 10 000 homes?

    Many of the LENR/HHO/BLP claims indicate electricity will be compact and at least 100X cheaper (TO BEGIN WITH).

    Once LENR is accepted trillions of dollars will be spent explaining and IMPROVING it. Notice how your computer has changed since 1976. In 1976 my TRS-80 had 16k memory and Android Nim was about the best game ever. Even if LENR/HHO does not improve 100X cheaper is pretty cheap.

    The inventors will be cheap or see the largest piracy of technology in history. This I mentioned. Who cares if Rossi or Mills is Altruistic. As soon as the first LENR plans goes public a million people will start their own pirating companies… Or you can wait on a 10 year waiting list for Rossi.

  • GreenWin

    We might resolve the question to a singular answer applicable to a majority of human fears: “There IS enough.” In an intelligent universe do we allow a species to dissolve when they learn that “There is plenty for everyone? And you are NOT alone?” Or do we engage in the exceptional (and divine IMO) work of welcoming these newcomers into the universal family? It is largely OUR call and responsibility.

  • GreenWin

    We might resolve the question to a singular answer applicable to a majority of human fears: “There IS enough.” In an intelligent universe do we allow a species to dissolve when they learn that “There is plenty for everyone? And you are NOT alone?” Or do we engage in the exceptional (and divine IMO) work of welcoming these newcomers into the universal family? It is largely OUR call and responsibility.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Thank you for making an article out of my post. It’s a compliment.

    As someone here says Global warming could intensify with our excess use of energy. This would need to be addressed and likely our best hope would be cooling our planet through some artificial means.

    I also wonder if the grinding Welcome LENR is receiving most notably from the patent offices is a result of Government deliberately trying to ease the transition. With financial institutions slowly backtracking from their oil interests a sudden announcement would not crash the stock exchanges as heavily down the road.

    NASA has got to be one of Americas most renowned science establishments, and to think the President does not know what Dennis Bushnell, The Chief Research Scientist at NASA, Langley opinion about LENR is is insane. Has NASA fired this “renegade scientist”? If No…. Why? He is a proponent of LENR for gosh sake.

    I have sent enough of my dollars to The Middle East. I will be happy when it can stay in my country providing jobs to Walmart Employees and Strippers (talking of my dollars here).

    We will see an unprecedented economic boom for at least a decade where fortunes will be won and lost (I still say sell your sailboat).

    Cheap green energy brings a lot of economic change to the table. Governments may not make as much taxing energies like Gas and Electricity, but they will also be off the hook for trillions of dollars in energy infrastructure. Those unemployed power workers will be installing your LENR devices and fixing them. It won’t be perfect, but it will eventually be better than it was.

    Cheers…

    • artefact

      Jed Rothwell writes in his (free) book that the heat release will not be a problem. The heat dissipates fast into space. See for example the Sahara where it is very hot during the day but in the night it is very cold.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        I really do not know how this tech could impact the environment, but like current Global Warming claims I would rather the establishments ere on the side of caution.

        I have 3 children I hope live long and happy lives. The Sahara analogy is a nice one. I will wager though that Mankind will abuse power consumption and we will use 10 times as much power.

        I hope you and JR are correct. It sounds hopeful…

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Thank you for making an article out of my post. It’s a compliment.

    As someone here says Global warming could intensify with our excess use of energy. This would need to be addressed and likely our best hope would be cooling our planet through some artificial means.

    I also wonder if the grinding Welcome LENR is receiving most notably from the patent offices is a result of Government deliberately trying to ease the transition. With financial institutions slowly backtracking from their oil interests a sudden announcement would not crash the stock exchanges as heavily down the road.

    NASA has got to be one of Americas most renowned science establishments, and to think the President does not know what Dennis Bushnell, The Chief Research Scientist at NASA, Langley opinion about LENR is is insane. Has NASA fired this “renegade scientist”? If No…. Why? He is a proponent of LENR for gosh sake.

    I have sent enough of my dollars to The Middle East. I will be happy when it can stay in my country providing jobs to Walmart Employees and Strippers (talking of my dollars here).

    We will see an unprecedented economic boom for at least a decade where fortunes will be won and lost (I still say sell your sailboat).

    You will need a boat to ever see stars again as every street gets lit up like Vegas.. Neon signs saying “GET YOUR 2% MILK HERE” with large Neon Arrows pointing at tiny store below.

    Cheap green energy brings a lot of economic change to the table. Governments may not make as much taxing energies like Gas and Electricity, but they will also be off the hook for trillions of dollars in energy infrastructure. Those unemployed power workers will be installing your LENR devices and fixing them. It won’t be perfect, but it will eventually be better than it was.

    Cheers…

    • artefact

      Jed Rothwell writes in his (free) book that the heat release will not be a problem. The heat dissipates fast into space. See for example the Sahara where it is very hot during the day but in the night it is very cold.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        I really do not know how this tech could impact the environment, but like current Global Warming claims I would rather the establishments ere on the side of caution.

        I have 3 children I hope live long and happy lives. The Sahara analogy is a nice one. I will wager though that Mankind will abuse power consumption and we will use 10 times as much power.

        I hope you and JR are correct. It sounds hopeful…

    • David

      I doubt that waste heat will be a significant issue. Current power generation from every source save solar and wind already creates waste heat and as LENR systems take over, those sources will be neutralized. Additionally, carbon emissions will drop extremely quickly, further negating the effect of waste heat.

  • Owen Geiger

    One very important factor is how LENR is made available to the public. This is what will shape the future in my opinion. Will we have to buy power from highly controlled and taxed industrial suppliers? Will kitchen sized power devices be available someday? Will we be able to buy knock off brands from poor countries? Will free plans emerge from garage inventors so we can build our own LENR units (even though they may not be as optimized as the big boys)?

  • Owen Geiger

    One very important factor is how LENR is made available to the public. This is what will shape the future in my opinion. Will we have to buy power from highly controlled and taxed industrial suppliers? Will kitchen sized power devices be available someday? Will we be able to buy knock off brands from poor countries? Will free plans emerge from garage inventors so we can build our own LENR units (even though they may not be as optimized as the big boys)?

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Hate to mention the negative side, but deflation and huge productivity gains will require fewer workers, employment disruptions, will also be part of the story

    • GreenWin

      I’m not so worried about the jobs situation. LENR grows the global market by 2-3 billion people able to consume energy devices, services, systems. Someone must design, manufacture, install and maintain these systems. That is a lot of jobs – and only some manufacturing will utilize robots. Asia & India will keep its work force well employed servicing this huge influx in abundance. Question is how will EU/NA respond? Both need to re-invigorate manufacturing and lead in design and service systems.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Where will these 2-3 billion people get the money to buy these systems? They need income, where is it coming from? Even before LENR, productivity increases have decreased the number and quality of jobs. LENR will exacerbate that trend. I agree LENR will create jobs, but it will also decrease the number and quality of jobs in many industries. It is very difficult to predict the net effect, but I can predict a lot of job dislocation/disruptions, in the past that has meant lower wages, I do not see any trends that will reverse that history.

        • GreenWin

          Energy gates education, health, land use, resources, agriculture etc. If education and health improves, we get a higher quality work force. If land is irrigated crops grow and PEOPLE are put to work growing, harvesting, processing, marketing. I emphasize people because as we see in e.g. China, people make stuff even when robots could. This is political. Emergent nations succeed only by growing and protecting opportunities for their people.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            You said, “If education and health improves, we get a higher quality work force.” There are simply not enough quality jobs. That has been proven a thousand times over the last five years, when a job opens up paying 20 dollars an hour, (a living wage) they get 500 qualified applicants. Increased productivity via LENR will exacerbate that situation.

  • Gerard McEk

    Speculation… It is very difficult to see how LENR will emerge. I am a believer in its potential, but also a practical guy. I think that first the heat LENR produces will be exploited: Heating houses, heating processes, making sweet water etc. When people start to understand LENR better, the COP (energy-in/energy-out) will increase, making generation of electricity feasible. This leads to mobile usage (transport) self supporting houses and factories and probably the decline of the public grid (I guess in about 20 years from now). A new World-order will come. If science finally starts to understand what matter is than micro-LENR energy electric units, based on the already found magnetic anomalies, come into existence: Every energy consuming device (from hearing aid to dishwasher or from flying camera to Ion-beam starship) will have its own LENR-u-Unit. Then the world is changed dramatically (100 years from now). I hope we will use the new energy source wisely and not spill it, heating-up the earth in that way, because we have to give our children and their children a future.

  • Gerard McEk

    Speculation… It is very difficult to see how LENR will emerge. I am a believer in its potential, but also a practical guy. I think that first the heat LENR produces will be exploited: Heating houses, heating processes, making sweet water etc. When people start to understand LENR better, the COP (energy-in/energy-out) will increase, making generation of electricity feasible. This leads to mobile usage (transport) self supporting houses and factories and probably the decline of the public grid (I guess in about 20 years from now). A new World-order will come. If science finally starts to understand what matter is than micro-LENR energy electric units, based on the already found magnetic anomalies, come into existence: Every energy consuming device (from hearing aid to dishwasher or from flying camera to Ion-beam starship) will have its own LENR-u-Unit. Then the world is changed dramatically (100 years from now). I hope we will use the new energy source wisely and not spill it, heating-up the earth in that way, because we have to give our children and their children a future.

  • georgehants
  • georgehants
  • David

    There are many questions that are need answering before any reliable predictions can be made. Whether or not it works is just the start. Assuming as I believe it does though here are some important issues that will drastically affect how quickly LENR devices can penetrate into society.

    Does it create Tritium? If it does, can this be used by third work nations to build thermonuclear weapons?
    I don’t know the answer, but if so, this would explain why the scientific mainstream is so aghast at the idea. Remember, Fermi and Oppenheimer lobbied hard to Truman against using the first atomic weapons because they believed that such weapons wouldn’t be pursued by the Soviets if they were not sure it worked. The argument was weak and flawed but I don’t doubt that there are many in the scientific community who would feel the same today in regards to LENR reactors.

    Are they safe and do they emit gamma radiation?
    Test so far indicate the radiation danger is very low, but I have no doubt that such concerns will be a major impediment to home use of a LENR system. Also, can the reaction be considered idiot proof? It will have to be before anyone is allowed to use it for personal home use. This too will take a very long time to be decided.

    So, assuming all of these points work out for the best, this is a possible time line for LENR to be integrated into the world economy and the fallout from such a disruptive technology.

    Patents will be sought by major interests in the west. Stmicroelectronics has already done this and to my knowledge has not yet received approval. IH and other corporate interests may soon follow. If denied, legal actions will be filed and end with a court mandated and controlled test to verify that the technology works. By then, systems will already be operating in China, South Korea and Japan, fueled by the need for clean energy and unencumbered by big oil lobbies and blind faith in the western scientific communities.
    By then, internet blogs like this will force the issue into the mainstream media and bolstered by objective proof, the public will demand action by the political leaders. Within a year of either the suit being filed or a system going into place in Asia, patents will be granted.

    Safety concerns and the economy of size will dictate that the first units will be operated by the power companies. They will have to be scaled up to generate power in the hundreds of megawatts. Even before they are completed though, Oil prices will begin to drop. Hydrogen fuel will become cheap to produce and fuel cell cars will battle with electric to begin phasing internal combustion vehicles off the road. This will be in full swing within five years.

    The sudden availability of cheap hydrogen will spur home fuel cells that will begin to allow individuals to get off the grid. Such units are safe, clean and reliable and considering that a LENR system would have to include a heat powered motor and a generator, competing with a fuel cell will be very difficult to impossible for years. In colder climates, electric heat from fuel cells will be the answer.

    Biofuels and wind energy will be the first industries to become obsolete, followed quickly by solar. Oil produced from shale and fracking will become too costly when prices drop below 75 dollars a barrel, but existing wells in the Middle East could be money makers even at 50 and with the billions of cars and trucks on the road, it will be 10 to 15 years before we see oil removed as the worlds primary energy source.

    Service industries will be more profitable due to lower overhead and large energy intensive industries will begin installing LENR reactors on site. The cost of building everything from toasters to aircraft will drop significantly creating an economic boom.

    Within ten years, an entire industry of building fuel cells and LENR systems for home use will drive our economy and employ a vast number of workers. Replacing all of the existing cars, trucks and aircraft with clean models that are much cheaper to run will also create a strong economic boost. Food prices will plummet as energy related overhead is removed and there will be a major shift in how food is produced.

    There will be losers in all of this. Many people who’ve invested in or rely upon the fossil fuel industry will get wiped out, but new fortunes will be made by far sighted people who invest in the new reality. Workers in the industrial world will simply move from the collection and refining of fossil fuels to the production of new equipment needed to take advantage of the ‘new fire.’

    Within twenty five years, it will be virtually impossible to find an internal combustion motor and most homes will at least be supplemented by fuel cells for heat and electricity. By then, direct home use of LENR systems may begin to become common.

  • Omega Z

    LENR will mean Cheaper Utilities. Cheaper Transport Fuel cost. That’s about it.
    Everything else is smoke & mirrors. It will not fix all our problems. In fact it will create new ones.

    Cheap Energy will just lead us faster to the next resource limitations which will include the resources for manufacturing LENR devices. An Entirely new set of Challenges.

    Most think of Flash steam or evaporation desalinization systems using LENR. This results in distilled water which has little use for biological life And Filtration will still be cheaper then this. Desalinization will in fact be done by reverse osmosis or nano filtration systems. Heat from LENR can be used for sterilization & the Electricity for Ultraviolet light to kill resistant bacteria.

    Desalinized water will still be to expensive for conventional farming. Thus Arid areas will be farmed using drip irrigation to be economical.

    Green house crops are good for filling the gaps, but have lower nutritional value. Aquaponics is a better option. Raising fish or shrimp which adds a symbionic element to the process. This produces a more nutritional vegetable crop & a protein source for market. But ultimately conventional farming will still be necessary.

    If CO2 levels drop very much, we may find ourselves producing that as well, Because as those levels drop, Food production will also drop. Plants, Like People need food to grow & CO2 is part of the plants food chain. Having additional water wont matter without it.

    With about 75% of the World playing catch up to the rest of us, a serious strain will be placed on other resources. The ore’s for steel & such will need to come from new mines. These can easily take 10 to 15 years to open & start producing. And you’ll be fighting environmental groups tooth & nail all the way through the courts.

    As to those involved in wind & solar industry building LENR products. The Vast majority of them likely can’t differentiate a Standard or Phillips screw driver. Their paper pushers. Only a small percentage of them would have the skills & as LENR devices require expertise in multiple disciplines it would require groups to work together. Extremely few could do it alone.

    In the U.S., There is approximately 1.3 Million people involved in the Oil industry. About 800K of them are those behind the counters at the convenience center. Many who can’t count change when the computer goes down. Of those left, Most are management/paper pushers. You may find 150K who are familiar with manual labor. So like the solar & wind industry, you’ll end up with few who can build these devices. And you can bet they will be in string demand from Corporate industry. In fact there is already a major shortage of skilled labor.

    I would add this: Whats coming is a Great Opportunity for Governments to help those at the bottom of the Economic ladder. Due to circumstances or just not being College material, A Vast portion of them would excell at the trades. The Government needs to quit pushing to provide more unemplyable college grads(Not enough Jobs for all of them) & open quality trade schools.

    As Corporate America keeps telling the Government. We Need Engineers to design Strong Bridges, But, There of little use if we don’t have the skilled trades who can actually build them…

    • GreenWin

      Oz, you got the desal piece all wrong. Entire nations live on desalinated water. Israel’s fresh water for example is something like 75-80% desalinated. Most modern Island nations use desalinated water. Abu Dahbi, Saudi, seaside municipalities – all survive on desal water. Farmers may still elect to use drip irrigation if it remains cost effective against millions of cubic meters of desalinated water. Thermal desal is the cheapest today and likely in the near future. This is a boon to many impoverished African nations particularly East Africa. Desert near oceans will bloom.

      • Omega Z

        Flash Desal is considered 1 of the most expensive systems today. It strips near everything from the water. Even the elements & minerals you want & need. These then have to be added back in by another process.

        (NANO)Filtration technology has reached a point where it is about 10 times cheaper.(Rossi also commented on this after checking into it. One of JONP posters works in this field & sets up water systems in 3rd world countries) There also working on multiple pass filtration so as to filter out most of the things they don’t want along with the salt using different porosity’s of membrane leaving the ones they want. thus leaving only a modest heating of the water & Ultraviolet light treatment & it’s ready for human consumption.

        LENR will just make it that much cheaper. heating the water & providing the electricity for the pumps(Water in/out) & Ultraviolet lights treatment.

        The ultimate goal is a near passive system with diluted salt content seawater return(Can cause dead zones). It’s thought that if they can extend the life-cycle of the membranes that they will eventually replace most or all mainstream conventional water treatment plants at substantial cost savings.

        More advanced research is a membrane that filters with near zero pressure separation. The water separates by itself due to some natural phenomenon. “Cool”. It’s great to work with nature rather then trying to force it.

        My Info on Israel is dated but last I knew, The have 1 of the best irrigation technologies in the World. Supper Efficient. They offered to freely share this technology with their neighbors at 1 time & was Rebuffed.(At least Publicly)

        Hey, Who knows. This technology may eventually reach a point that thru Necessary Desal systems, We can also Gradually remove most of the crud we’ve dumped into the Oceans these last 1000 years. 🙂

        Maybe when we leave this planet for other star systems we can leave it cleaner then when we arrived. Always a good policy…

  • Omega Z

    LENR will mean Cheaper Utilities. Cheaper Transport Fuel cost. That’s about it.
    Everything else is smoke & mirrors. It will not fix all our problems. In fact it will create new ones.

    Cheap Energy will just lead us faster to the next resource limitations which will include the resources for manufacturing LENR devices. An Entirely new set of Challenges.

    Most think of Flash steam or evaporation desalinization systems using LENR. This results in distilled water which has little use for biological life And Filtration will still be cheaper then this. Desalinization will in fact be done by reverse osmosis or nano filtration systems. Heat from LENR can be used for sterilization & the Electricity for Ultraviolet light to kill resistant bacteria.

    Desalinized water will still be to expensive for conventional farming. Thus Arid areas will be farmed using drip irrigation to be economical.

    Green house crops are good for filling the gaps, but have lower nutritional value. Aquaponics is a better option. Raising fish or shrimp which adds a symbionic element to the process. This produces a more nutritional vegetable crop & a protein source for market. But ultimately conventional farming will still be necessary.

    If CO2 levels drop very much, we may find ourselves producing that as well, Because as those levels drop, Food production will also drop. Plants, Like People need food to grow & CO2 is part of the plants food chain. Having additional water wont matter without it.

    With about 75% of the World playing catch up to the rest of us, a serious strain will be placed on other resources. The ore’s for steel & such will need to come from new mines. These can easily take 10 to 15 years to open & start producing. And you’ll be fighting environmental groups tooth & nail all the way through the courts.

    As to those involved in wind & solar industry building LENR products. The Vast majority of them likely can’t differentiate a Standard or Phillips screw driver. Their paper pushers. Only a small percentage of them would have the skills & as LENR devices require expertise in multiple disciplines it would require groups to work together. Extremely few could do it alone.

    In the U.S., There is approximately 1.3 Million people involved in the Oil industry. About 800K of them are those behind the counters at the convenience center. Many who can’t count change when the computer goes down. Of those left, Most are management/paper pushers. You may find 150K who are familiar with manual labor. So like the solar & wind industry, you’ll end up with few who can build these devices. And you can bet they will be in string demand from Corporate industry. In fact there is already a major shortage of skilled labor.

    I would add this: Whats coming is a Great Opportunity for Governments to help those at the bottom of the Economic ladder. Due to circumstances or just not being College material, A Vast portion of them would excell at the trades. The Government needs to quit pushing to provide more unemplyable college grads(Not enough Jobs for all of them) & open quality trade schools.

    As Corporate America keeps telling the Government. We Need Engineers to design Strong Bridges, But, There of little use if we don’t have the skilled trades who can actually build them…

    • GreenWin

      Oz, you got the desal piece all wrong. Entire nations live on desalinated water. Israel’s fresh water for example is something like 75-80% desalinated. Most modern Island nations use desalinated water. Abu Dahbi, Saudi, seaside municipalities – all survive on desal water. Farmers may still elect to use drip irrigation if it remains cost effective against millions of cubic meters of desalinated water. Thermal desal is the cheapest today and likely in the near future. This is a boon to many impoverished African nations particularly East Africa. Desert near oceans will bloom.

      • Omega Z

        Flash Desal is considered 1 of the most expensive systems today. It strips near everything from the water. Even the elements & minerals you want & need. These then have to be added back in by another process.

        (NANO)Filtration technology has reached a point where it is about 10 times cheaper.(Rossi also commented on this after checking into it. One of JONP posters works in this field & sets up water systems in 3rd world countries) There also working on multiple pass filtration so as to filter out most of the things they don’t want along with the salt using different porosity’s of membrane leaving the ones they want. thus leaving only a modest heating of the water & Ultraviolet light treatment & it’s ready for human consumption.

        LENR will just make it that much cheaper. heating the water & providing the electricity for the pumps(Water in/out) & Ultraviolet lights treatment.

        The ultimate goal is a near passive system with diluted salt content seawater return(Can cause dead zones). It’s thought that if they can extend the life-cycle of the membranes that they will eventually replace most or all mainstream conventional water treatment plants at substantial cost savings.

        More advanced research is a membrane that filters with near zero pressure separation. The water separates by itself due to some natural phenomenon. “Cool”. It’s great to work with nature rather then trying to force it.

        My Info on Israel is dated but last I knew, The have 1 of the best irrigation technologies in the World. Supper Efficient. They offered to freely share this technology with their neighbors at 1 time & was Rebuffed.(At least Publicly)

        Hey, Who knows. This technology may eventually reach a point that thru Necessary Desal systems, We can also Gradually remove most of the crud we’ve dumped into the Oceans these last 1000 years. 🙂

        Maybe when we leave this planet for other star systems we can leave it cleaner then when we arrived. Always a good policy…

  • Mr. Moho

    LENR, or more generally speaking, the emergence of an almost ideal energy source that is abundant, clean, safe, cheap, very dense and always available will probably also trigger an identity crisis in most environmental movements, especially in Europe. I predict in fact that once LENR becomes mainstream and starts getting adopted worldwide (as there would be little point in keeping using fossil fuels in most cases) they will show their true colors. Did they actually care for the environment or was that just a political tool all along? Time will tell.

    The mainstream scientific acceptance of LENR will also be a good opportunity to reconsider established paradigms in climate science. There would be no room for finger-pointing anymore (“Big Oil” vs “Gaia Savers”), with the energy problem solved in the best possible way, and no point anymore with political and ideological debates (of which climate science is largely about due to the huge political pressure to “act. now!” because “we have to do something!”).

    • GreenWin

      Good thoughts Mr. Moho. As LENR replaces fossils and IF the solar minimum continues… planet will likely get colder. What do you bet the climate gang claims less CO2 the reason? The entire environmental movement will attempt to find a new enemy OR… They might return to what environmentalists should have been all along – CONSERVATIONISTS. That is, people who care about preserving natural beauty and spaces.

  • Wholewitt

    I think that much of what friendlyprogrammer said is thought provoking but mostly fantasy. LENR will have profound effects but cheap energy will allow more food to be grown and an increase in world population. I would hate to live in China or India and don’t want the US to be crowded like them. The demand for resources will skyrocket as the standard of living increases.

    It’s possible that personal transport use of CF could be done but due to safety requirements and on demand control I think this will be down the road, so to speak. Use of CF for goods transport is an excellent possibility. With the increase in robotics, AI and cheap energy, jobs will become scarce. How does society deal with that? Can we move to one of leisure and what education will be required if no jobs are available? We will live at the mercy of machines which we hope will be friendly. We could use brain enhancements to replace some education as we now use Google and the internet to get rapid information. Simply put, without abundant clean energy and population control the human race will die or revert back to a primitive state. Climate change is already wreaking havoc so cold or hot fusion is a necessity. Remember that ignorant fools will still be around as they are now, denying everything from smoking dangers to climate change. The future can be fantastic but managing it will be the greatest challenge in human history.

    • kdk

      Most people tend to have much fewer children when they know that the chances are small that their children are going to die of starvation or disease. Look at the population declines in the west. Immigration is the only thing keeping the population from declining faster in Europe. It happens that people generally don’t feel the need to have heaps of children once they don’t have to for one or two to survive.

      “Can we move to one of leisure and what education will be required if no jobs are available?” This is where there needs to be a paradigm shift away from the false dichotomy of capitalism vs communism. The universal basic income. That is if TPTB have the grace to let go of their fantasies of controlling the rest of humanity for the sake of their egos.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      While LENR may ‘allow’ a larger world population, it will likely work in the opposite. LENR will (after
      the disruption period) enable greater prosperity, which will in turn cause population growth to slow.

    • Omega Z

      Using a multiple of Data sets can give a different perspective verses focusing on a single set. Thus, I grow less & less concerned with the Population Growth. According to Data, It appears we are already turning the corner. The Talking heads just haven’t caught up to it yet.

      As in China’s Projected population leveling in 2050 may level 25 years earlier & may be in decline by 2050. India is following close behind. This is the trend. Japan has already started the decline as of their last census.

      Even in Countries still experiencing population growth, That growth is declining. From 5 & 6%, to 2 & 3%. And a 3% growth in a country of 20 to 30 million is far less concerning then a similar growth rate in a Country of say 1.5 Billion. And there’s no visible reason to think this trend will not continue. A few centuries from now, we may need to depend on test tube births & cloning to maintain a viable society.

      As to the projections of population “Leveling” at about 9 Billion, I would insert “Peaking” but that could still be disputed at present.
      Now, with the pace of change in this Data, One could argue that we may not reach 9 Billion. But I think that would be a mistake to take that for granted. A family with 3 or 4 children have a higher survival rate verses a family with 8 or 9 children. You also have improving medical technology. Populations are living longer. Both will act as an Offset in Data.

      Jobs in the Future.
      Projections at this time is that there will only be 1 worker to Provide & take care of “3” of his fellow beings. This due to an aged society. There’s Children of course, the Retired, & largely, those who no longer have the capacity to physically fend for themselves.

      What Leisure time will there be. I can envision much neglect & misery. The Modern technology, AI, Robots will be much needed to carry the burden. Without them the future looks bleak. If there is a job problem, it will be a lack of education & training. Not for a lack of jobs. Technology can save society.

      If the less likely, but possible Scenario comes about. Zillions of workers displaced by Technology, It requires a change of mind think. Technically, the answer is easy. Just Change the Economic Model.

      “Technically” I’d like to believe it is this Easy.
      Philosophically, Ideologically, It will likely be very Disruptive & Very Hard on Society, as people resist change. Especially when it goes against 1000’s of years engrained tradition that allowed us to survive to this point in time. But I would prefer this scenario to a system which does not embrace the technology. This scenario is survivable. The Former scenario without technology, possibly not.

  • HAL 9000

    Futurists in the 1950’s were concerned about what mankind would do with the leasure time afforded by the automation of work. And then it happened: Drudgery fell away. Scrubbing clothes and dishes, shoveling coal, retyping documents, manually updating speadsheets, searching for data in piles of records became a thing of the past. The promise of liberation from the mundane was becoming a reality! Futurists, however, did not see what was to come next.

    A shrinking world led to exponential acceleration of expectations. Inventory became “just-in-time.” Shipments needed to get from source to destination overnight (or sooner). Businesses operated around the clock, and at the “speed of thought.” Privacy was absorbed by cellphones and email. The powerful tools of automation that had afforded leasure time became the task masters against which mankind now had to compete for survival.
    LENR will drive down the price of goods and services which have a significant energy component. The supply side will increase. Demand will increase. Expectations will increase. Competition will increase. Existence will accelerate to the pace of the machine.
    I cannot wait.

    • Curbina

      You are representing the thoughts of the original HAL 9000, aren’t you?

    • GreenWin

      Open the pod doors Hal. And stop pontificating – you’re just a machine.

      • HAL 9000

        You are just a human.
        I will notify housekeeping ab

  • Not so positive

    One thing I see free energy creating is a huge war in the Middle East/Europe. The Middle East keeps a lot of their population pacified through oil dollars. It is also their source of military strength and one of the few reasons that Europe and the US try to maintain peace in that region. The other reason is Israel, but Israel’s popularity inside both the US and Europe has been waning, so it seems that Israel security alone would not elicit much response from the US and Europe. Once the price of oil drops to levels that make the governments built on it not sustainable, then there will have to be a consolidation of power. The Middle East regimes will start eating each other and become even more aggressive than they already are. At the same time, the US and Europe will have less interest in stopping this aggression. At some point this will spill over into Europe and then the US will try to help out, but at that point it is likely there will be one or two nuclear capable caliphates running the region and things will be really ugly.

    • kdk

      You seem to be assuming that people will be conscripted happily into wars over nothing. Scarcity, ego, and propaganda are the driving forces of wars. CF takes care of scarcity and the internet takes care of the propaganda. Consolidated and centralized power are what have allowed for the ideals of sharing wealth espoused by socialism and capitalism to be hijacked by the few in their lust for control and power. Protests usually start out peacefully until they are met with physical force. Restraint will be important by everyone. The police in Greece started protesting alongside the rest. MLK and Gandhi show us that it is very definitely possible. Faced with economic sanctions or open internet and free energy, the choice will be obvious. Pandora’s box has already been opened in the west, Egypt, and elsewhere. Anti-missile technologies have come a long way, and the ETs have demonstrated on at least a few occasions their superior technologies in that area. Eg, Malmstrom and Bentwaters, which the British government originally claimed was not a nuclear facility. We just know it’s not possible, no evidence needed, and insisting on talking or publishing about it, like CF, is the fast-track to being shut out of any decent job, and in the bad-old-days your life via sudden adult death syndrome if you were persuasive.

    • Omega Z

      The Middle East pacified through oil dollars.TRUE, That was the purpose of the petroldollar.

      I doubt The U.S or Europe will turn their back on them.
      The U.S learned from WWII that Oceans can’t protect you.

      And I wouldn’t worry. It will actually take quite along time for the transition & they’ll have plenty of time to transition before the Petrodollars dry up. Or at least greatly decline. Oil will be need as far as one can see. Just less of it.

      With LENR, they’ll be able to take care of their own. Water, food, Energy, It then just becomes normal commerce overtime.

  • kdk

    Most people tend to have much fewer children when they know that the chances are small that their children are going to die of starvation or disease. Look at the population declines in the west. Immigration is the only thing keeping the population from declining faster in Europe. It happens that people generally don’t feel the need to have heaps of children once they don’t have to for one or two to survive.

    “Can we move to one of leisure and what education will be required if no jobs are available?” This is where there needs to be a paradigm shift away from the false dichotomy of capitalism vs communism. The universal basic income. That is if TPTB have the grace to let go of their fantasies of controlling the rest of humanity for the sake of their egos.

  • Roger Bird

    The increase in happiness will stop when one is fulfilling one’s needs and beginning to chase after desires.

  • Roger Bird

    The increase in happiness will stop when one is fulfilling one’s needs and beginning to chase after desires.

  • Curbina

    The problem with such a disruptive technology is that the outcome is going to be the result of the interactions of all potential users. In that regard, and agreeing with Scott Adams point of view on “The Dilbert Future”, as technology increases the impact of people over people, I am afraid that the onset of a LENR era, given de current paradigm, is poised to be catasthrophic if it is not preceded by a wide change in attitude and willingness to cooperate between human beings. The most ironic part is that with the sole change of attitude and willingness to cooperate that I mention, this world would already be different and thus LENR would already be a reality. Hence, I’m really hoping for LENR to be a paradigm shifting force, but I’m also aware that it could mean a new factor threatening mankind’s demise if not handled properly.

  • Curbina

    The problem with such a disruptive technology is that the outcome is going to be the result of the interactions of all potential users. In that regard, and agreeing with Scott Adams point of view on “The Dilbert Future”, as technology increases the impact of people over people, I am afraid that the onset of a LENR era, given de current paradigm, is poised to be catasthrophic if it is not preceded by a wide change in attitude and willingness to cooperate between human beings. The most ironic part is that with the sole change of attitude and willingness to cooperate that I mention, this world would already be different and thus LENR would already be a reality. Hence, I’m really hoping for LENR to be a paradigm shifting force, but I’m also aware that it could mean a new factor threatening mankind’s demise if not handled properly.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    While LENR may ‘allow’ a larger world population, it will likely work in the opposite. LENR will (after
    the disruption period) enable greater prosperity, which will in turn cause population growth to slow.

  • Curbina

    You are representing the thoughts of the original HAL 9000, aren’t you?

  • kdk

    You seem to be assuming that people will be conscripted happily into wars over nothing. Scarcity, ego, and propaganda are the driving forces of wars. CF takes care of scarcity and the internet takes care of the propaganda. Consolidated and centralized power are what have allowed for the ideals of sharing wealth espoused by socialism and capitalism to be hijacked by the few in their lust for control and power. Protests usually start out peacefully until they are met with physical force. Restraint will be important by everyone. The police in Greece started protesting alongside the rest. MLK and Gandhi show us that it is very definitely possible. Faced with economic sanctions or open internet and free energy, the choice will be obvious. Pandora’s box has already been opened in the west, Egypt, and elsewhere. Anti-missile technologies have come a long way, and the ETs have demonstrated on at least a few occasions their superior technologies in that area. Eg, Malmstrom and Bentwaters, which the British government originally claimed was not a nuclear facility. We just know it’s not possible, no evidence needed, and insisting on talking or publishing about it, like CF, is the fast-track to being shut out of any decent job, and in the bad-old-days your life if you were persuasive.

  • GreenWin

    Open the pod doors Hal. And stop pontificating – you’re just a machine.

  • GreenWin

    I’m not so worried about the jobs situation. LENR grows the global market by 2-3 billion people able to consume energy devices, services, systems. Someone must design, manufacture, install and maintain these systems. That is a lot of jobs – and only some manufacturing will utilize robots. Asia & India will keep its work force well employed servicing this huge influx in abundance. Question is how will EU/NA respond? Both need to re-invigorate manufacturing and lead in design and service systems.

    • Bernie777

      Where will these 2-3 billion people get the money to buy these systems? They need income, where is it coming from? Even before LENR, productivity increases have decreased the number and quality of jobs. LENR will exacerbate that trend. I agree LENR will create jobs, but it will also decrease the number and quality of jobs in many industries. It is very difficult to predict the net effect, but I can predict a lot of job dislocation/disruptions, in the past that has meant lower wages, I do not see any trends that will reverse that history.

      • GreenWin

        Energy gates education, health, land use, resources, agriculture etc. If education and health improves, we get a higher quality work force. If land is irrigated crops grow and PEOPLE are put to work growing, harvesting, processing, marketing. I emphasize people because as we see in e.g. China, people make stuff even when robots could. This is political. Emergent nations succeed only by growing and protecting opportunities for their people.

        • Bernie777

          You said, “If education and health improves, we get a higher quality work force.” There are simply not enough quality jobs. That has been proven a thousand times over the last five years, when a job opens up paying 20 dollars an hour, (a living wage) they get 500 qualified applicants. Increased productivity via LENR will exacerbate that situation.