Rossi: Natural Gas Powered E-Cat Not a Matter of Simple Heat

Andrea Rossi has frequently mentioned that ‘driving’ the E-Cat with a natural gas source, rather than electricity, is a goal that Industrial Heat is working towards, because in many cases it would make the E-Cat more economical (natural gas being much less expensive than electricity in many parts of the world).

If it were simply a matter of replacing one source of heat (a gas flame for an electric heating element) one might think that this was a relatively simple task to perform — but a comment from Andrea Rossi today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics indicates that things are not this simple.

Steven Karels asked Rossi:

Can you discuss what some of the challenges are in going to a gas-fueled eCat compared to an electricity heated eCat?

For example:

1. The difference in time constant between the application and removal of heat between electric heating and flame?
2. The difference in heat transfer for gas-fired versus direct electric windings?
3. The difficulty in providing adequate ventilation for gas-fired system (incoming air)?
4. The difficulty in exhausting the exhaust products?
5. The energy efficiency of gas-fired (how much energy goes up the chimney)?

Rossi responded:

None of them.
The problem is deeper and has its roots in the core of the know how. It is not a problem of heat exchange or of heat conservation. Otherwise, it could have been already resolved.

To me, this response suggests that there is some other kinds of important stimulation given to the reactor from the electrical heating element, than simply heat up the fuel in the reactor. In connection with this idea is the comment that Rossi made some months ago about the E-Cat requiring Alternating Current (AC), and that it could not run on Direct Current (DC).]

What this means is unclear, but it does make me wonder if there is some kind of radio frequency or magnetic pulsation involved in producing an E-Cat reaction. This could be useful information for replicators as they plan for various configurations and experiments.

Perhaps Rossi and his team at IH are trying a type of hybrid approach, where they combine heat from natural gas simultaneously with AC electrical stimulation — that could get complicated, and it seems from Rossi’s response here that they still haven’t sorted this problem out.

  • Dave Lawton

    Frank I may have mentioned before Harold Aspden in his LENR patent uses AC current.

    • Frederic

      And preferably nickel as the host metal for protons !
      That was in 1993 : patent WO9428197 …

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Rossi mentioned some time ago that they were carrying out R&D on a hybrid Cat. It seems indeed to be logical, but maybe there are problems that cannot easily be foreseen from an outsider’s perspective.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Rossi mentioned some time ago that they were carrying out R&D on a hybrid Cat. It seems indeed to be logical, but maybe there are problems that cannot easily be foreseen from an outsider’s perspective.

  • Steve H

    Frank,

    I submitted a post a few days ago on this very subject – however it seems to have gone astray.

    This is a copy of the comments I sent to Bob Greenyer of MFMP, regarding the importance of magnetostriction in Nickel:-

    Bob,

    do you think the following suggestion may be useful when talking to Alexander:-

    This is an idea based on the magnetostrictive properties of Nickel and the fact that Andrea Rossi uses 3-phase power for his reactor heater. I believe Alexander and MFMP are using single-phase power for theirs.

    It seems likely that the magnetostrictive behaviour of Nickel is an important part of the Rossi Effect and a high C.O.P.
    Otherwise – why use such a complicated set-up when single-phase is readily available!

    With regard to magnetostriction – imagine if you will, the continual pumping, stirring action this would create within the Nickel lattice if the applied magnetic field was oscillating.
    Also the presence of Lithium and Hydrogen atoms in an excited state (above 1000 ºC), within a pulsating lattice may present the perfect conditions for interaction.

    I propose that the heating coils in the Rossi reactor are the source of a pulsing and variable magnetic field – simply by the current flowing through the coils and their geometry.
    In addition – a three-phase heating element may substantially improve the effect.

    At 50 Hz single-phase it generates a maximum amplitude, reversing, magnetic pulse; 100 times every second. (At 60 Hz = 120 times every second).
    With 3-phase power it generates the same magnetic pulse three times as often (300/second – 50Hz, 360/second – 60Hz).

    Regards,

    Steve.

    • Maybe it is not heat that needs to be added to keep E-Cats going, but strong electromagnetic stimulation, which costs electricity. Solar Hydrogen Trends uses magnetic stimulation plus ultrasonic stimulation. Their reactor does not produce heat, but rips water apart into hydrogen gas. Defkalion uses spark stimulation plus some type of RF stimulation. I hope we gt full disclosure from a successful LENR company soon.

      • Steve H

        I concur.
        The answer to stable control will eventually come from modulated waveform or electro-magnetic stimulation.

    • US_Citizen71

      It may also be required to excite the hydrogen atoms to a higher energy level. Some may remember the device created by John S. Kanzius that was able to excite hydrogen atoms in salt water to the point that they broke their bonds with oxygen and made it appear that salt water was burning on a wick.

      • Steve H

        I see your point.
        Something has to invoke a change in the atomic charge and structure of atoms – if the Coulomb barrier is to be overcome.

  • Steve H

    Frank,

    I submitted a post a few days ago on this very subject – however it seems to have gone astray.

    Magnetostriction being a property of certain materials which change shape / dimension – in the presence of a magnetic field. Nickel is negatively magnetostrictive, which means it contracts when under the influence of a magnetic field, then returns to its original dimension when the field is removed.

    This is a copy of the comments I sent to Bob Greenyer of MFMP, regarding the importance of magnetostriction in Nickel.

    “Bob,

    do you think the following suggestion may be useful when talking to Alexander:-

    This is an idea based on the magnetostrictive properties of Nickel and the fact that Andrea Rossi uses 3-phase power for his reactor heater. I believe Alexander and MFMP are using single-phase power for theirs.

    It seems likely that the magnetostrictive behaviour of Nickel is an important part of the Rossi Effect and a high C.O.P.
    Otherwise – why use such a complicated set-up when single-phase is readily available!

    With regard to magnetostriction – imagine if you will, the continual pumping, stirring action this would create within the Nickel lattice if the applied magnetic field was oscillating.
    Also the presence of Lithium and Hydrogen atoms in an excited state (above 1000 ºC), within a pulsating lattice may present the perfect conditions for interaction.

    I propose that the heating coils in the Rossi reactor are the source of a pulsing and variable magnetic field – simply by the current flowing through the coils and their geometry.
    In addition – a three-phase heating element may substantially improve the effect.

    At 50 Hz single-phase it generates a maximum amplitude, reversing, magnetic pulse; 100 times every second. (At 60 Hz = 120 times every second).
    With 3-phase power it generates the same magnetic pulse three times as often (300/second – 50Hz, 360/second – 60Hz).

    Regards,

    Steve”.

    • Maybe it is not heat that needs to be added to keep E-Cats going, but strong electromagnetic stimulation, which costs electricity. Solar Hydrogen Trends uses magnetic stimulation plus ultrasonic stimulation. Their reactor does not produce heat, but rips water apart into hydrogen gas. Defkalion uses spark stimulation plus some type of RF stimulation. I hope we get full disclosure from a successful LENR company soon.

      • Steve H

        I concur.
        The answer to stable control will eventually come from modulated waveform or electro-magnetic stimulation.

    • US_Citizen71

      It may also be required to excite the hydrogen atoms to a higher energy level. Some may remember the device created by John S. Kanzius that was able to excite hydrogen atoms in salt water to the point that they broke their bonds with oxygen and made it appear that salt water was burning on a wick.

      • Steve H

        I see your point.
        Something has to invoke a change in the atomic charge and structure of atoms – if the Coulomb barrier is to be overcome.

  • Steve H

    Robert Godes of Brillouin also intimated that they were using RF or similar frequencies to modulate and control their process.

  • Steve H

    Robert Godes of Brillouin also intimated that they were using RF or similar frequencies to modulate and control their process.
    If I am correct in my thinking then frequency converters and thyristors are the magic bullet to stable control with maximum C.O.P.

  • Obvious

    Rossi said once that a Bunsen burner could initiate the effect, and that electricity per se wasn’t needed. There seems to be some other problem, besides heat by itself. That could be magnetic, etc., but might also be something like a gradient in heat, or the heat feedback that is harder to maintain. One can turn heat on and off quite easily electrically. Fire isn’t quite as easy to switch off and on, and control the temperature of while maintaining a clean combustion area. (Or worse, causing potentially explosive or un-ignitable over-rich gas-air mixtures). This might limit the device to a “constant on” system only, without SSM, cancelling much of the potential savings using gas compared to electricity.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      One possibility might be that the reaction is possible to start with heat alone, but that to stop it and/or to regulate it effectively and safely one also needs some EM stimulation. The increased number and partially redundant nature of control parameters (heat plus EM) might make the R&D work time-consuming. Rossi was anyway convinced that they will succeed.

      • Steve H

        I feel confident Rossi will succeed – with an expert team.
        The parameters seem endless however:-
        * Frequencies
        * Amplitudes
        * Waveforms
        * Limitations of the signal/power generators
        * Time constants
        and last but not least – the number of years in R&D to test every permutation.

      • Obvious

        I can imagine that controlling flame heat more or less “digitally” could be done, but it could be dangerous in the early stages. Gas fitters and other experts would need to be involved, which might (in Rossi’s opinion) add too many potential extra sources of information leaks at this time in the development process. An entire new experimental area might need to be made, with work on the combustion control systems without reactors present until refined enough to add multiple reactors to the system. Until a “positive, not negative” result is obtained with the “simpler” electrical system (The 1 MW plant) IH may not want to stretch their financial resources too thin, but only perform basic research in gas-fired E-Cats, probably with single reactors.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I agree. Rossi has often
        mentioned that an electric input is required for safety reasons. He has also
        confirmed that the gas Cat needs as well electricity. I could imagine that
        thermal and EM (or whatever) regulation parameters are not clearly separated in
        the purely electric version (as you indicate), so that the control algorithm
        has to be completely rewritten and retested. But actually we simply do not know
        enough about the structure and function of Rossi’s reactors, so that all
        assumptions about this issue remain highly speculative.

    • Steve H

      Heat alone may exhibit over-unity, with the correct recipe.
      But high C.O.P. probably requires some additional input.

  • Obvious

    Rossi said once that a Bunsen burner could initiate the effect, and that electricity per se wasn’t needed. There seems to be some other problem, besides heat by itself. That could be magnetic, etc., but might also be something like a gradient in heat, or the heat feedback that is harder to maintain. One can turn heat on and off quite easily electrically. Fire isn’t quite as easy to switch off and on, and control the temperature of while maintaining a clean combustion area. (Or worse, causing potentially explosive or un-ignitable over-rich gas-air mixtures). This might limit the device to a “constant on” system only, without SSM, cancelling much of the potential savings using gas compared to electricity.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      One possibility might be that the reaction is possible to start with heat alone, but that to stop it and/or to regulate it effectively and safely one also needs some EM stimulation. The increased number and partially redundant nature of control parameters (heat plus EM) might make the R&D work time-consuming. Rossi was anyway convinced that they will succeed.

      • Steve H

        I feel confident Rossi will succeed – with an expert team.
        The parameters seem endless however:-
        * Frequencies
        * Amplitudes
        * Waveforms
        * Limitations of the signal/power generators
        * Time constants
        and last but not least – the number of years in R&D to test every permutation.

      • Obvious

        I can imagine that controlling flame heat more or less “digitally” could be done, but it could be dangerous in the early stages. Gas fitters and other experts would need to be involved, which might (in Rossi’s opinion) add too many potential extra sources of information leaks at this time in the development process. An entire new experimental area might need to be made, with work on the combustion control systems without reactors present until refined enough to add multiple reactors to the system. Until a “positive, not negative” result is obtained with the “simpler” electrical system (The 1 MW plant) IH may not want to stretch their financial resources too thin, but only perform basic research in gas-fired E-Cats, probably with single reactors.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I agree. Rossi has often
        mentioned that an electric input is required for safety reasons. He has also
        confirmed that the gas Cat needs as well electricity. I could imagine that
        thermal and EM (or whatever) regulation parameters are not clearly separated in
        the purely electric version (as you indicate), so that the control algorithm
        has to be completely rewritten and retested. But actually we simply do not know
        enough about the structure and function of Rossi’s reactors, so that all
        assumptions about this issue remain highly speculative.

    • Steve H

      Heat alone may exhibit over-unity, with the correct recipe.
      But high C.O.P. probably requires some additional input.

  • Robert Ellefson

    This topic has been discussed many, many times in various forms. Shortly after the release of the Lugano report, I identified one of the fuel ingredients as ~150 micron chunks of electrical steel, which I hypothesized as being used to create locally-intense electromagnetic field gradients in adjacent reactants, perhaps for pumping surface plasmon polaritons. This depends on the presence of a dynamic, applied electromagnetic field. I strongly believe that these reactors, once heated to some threshold temperature for reaction startup, can maintain their output using only the applied EMF input, and do not require external heating any longer, and will thus produce much, much higher COP results than we have seen thus far. I am pursuing these theories in my own experiments by designing the reactors as alumina tubes wrapped with pure nickel wire, rather than inconel or other resistance-heating wire, and placing the reactors (four at a time) into a small electric kiln. If this works as planned, then I should be able to unplug the electric kiln heating elements and maintain the kiln’s temperature with the small EMF stimulus alone. Combined with a thermoelectric converter and heat-sink, I believe this will be sufficient to ‘close the loop’. FWIW, I am designing a 12V to 300V dc/dc converter using a photographic flash-lamp controller IC in order to drive the stimulus coils with fields of similar magnitude as the Lugano device was measured to be receiving.

    • Steve H

      I like your style!

    • Nicholas Cafarelli

      @Robert Ellefson

      How would such ~150 micron electrical steel be made?

      Have you posted any details of your stimulus coil system online?

      I too suspect that such small stimulation can sustain the system.

      http://nilih.com

      • Robert Ellefson

        Based on the photograph shown as particle 3 of figure 1 on page 43 of the Lugano report, I concluded that the grain was produced by a grinding process from flat stock. I bought some Grain Oriented Electrical Steel (GOES is the common industry term) transformer core lamination stock, and will be grinding it on a bench grinder and then sieving for ~150 micron particle size.

        I haven’t posted details of the stimulus system online yet, but I will be sharing it as open-source once I have finished it. The basis for the DC/DC converter is taken from one of the Linear Technology LT3751 application note circuits, found in figure 4 of this paper: http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/lt-journal/LTMag-V19N1-02-LT3751-RobertMilliken.pdf

        I am planning to use the stimulus coil as an RTD also to measure the reactor temperature by measuring the coil resistance. I will multiplex the high-voltage stimulus signal with a low-voltage resistance measurement current, using optoisolators and periodic sampling. This will simplify wiring, which will help with scaling. For parameter space exploration, assuming I find anything interesting with my initial forays, this design will allow for scaling up to many individual reactors sharing a common kiln, with the primary output signals being the temperature differential between ambient and reactor casings. Detailed calorimetry is hindered in this mode, but rapid parameter-space exploration enabled, which can then be followed-up using a more elaborate apparatus for proper calorimetry.

        • Obvious

          I am a fan also of the kiln method. It does simplify several things at once.
          How do you plan on protecting the wiring?

          • Robert Ellefson

            I’m drilling a hole in the bottom of the kiln refractory floor for a pass-through of the wiring, which will be run in conduits of multi-bore coorstek tubing and then braided alumina jacketing near the exterior terminal block. The nickel wiring on the alumina reactor tubes will be bare, and will attached to a molded insulator terminal assembly inside the kiln, much as in the nature of tubular fuses sitting in a fuse-holder.

          • Obvious

            I had intended to do kiln tests without any wiring at all, other than temp sensors. I suppose you will do some like that anyway as baseline tests. It should be interesting to see if the extra stimulation, …, actually stimulates the reaction.

          • builditnow

            Robert,
            Nice approach with the Kiln. If one of your reactors becomes significantly exothermic, do you have a plan to keep the reactor from over heating?
            I’ll see if I can upload a diagram of an air heated and controlled setup.

          • Robert Ellefson

            Yes, I have a plan to use the heat as process heat for demonstrating fresh-water production, but that’s down the road a few steps. In the meantime, I’ll be venting with air initially, and if capacity scales up will introduce a working fluid for transport. It looks like air is a good choice for many applications, but extant industrial thermal fluids are likely to be a better choice in the long run for most applications that I’m considering.

          • builditnow

            Robert, I like your thinking. Some kind of working fluid with a lot more thermal capacity than air would likely be desirable. One thing air could remain good for is a converted jet turbine. As you mentioned above, the magnetic stimulation only requires a small amount of power, so, COP has to go very high once control over the heat loss as well as heat added. The Lugano experiment only controlled heat added and left heat loss as unassisted radiation and convection loss.

            With an exothermic reaction, once it’s going, all that should be required is to control the heat loss and keep up the magnetic stimulation and that can be done with small amounts of power. The heat loss on a 10kW air controlled reactor could be achieved with less than 500 Watt for control circuits, air circulators and fans. That is a COP of 20. Additionally, most of this energy use can be identified as not adding heat to the reactor. Control electronics, control valves and cold air input (as the temperature of the incoming cold air can be measured). This could reduce the total energy added to 50 Watts for magnetic stimulation and air circulators, this is a COP of 200.
            For a converted jet engine, the air circulatory become part of the engine, so then it’s just the magnetic stimulation (say 25 Watts), the COP of the reactor goes even higher to 400. A jet turbine conservatively will produce 20% efficiency as shaft power. The resultant COP electrical = 200/5 = 40.

          • Robert Ellefson

            Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. I’m not familiar with what’s available in terms of small turbines, but my impression of hobby-grade model engines is that they are designed for short-duration use and light weight foremost, and may not provide the durability I’m seeking. They also cost several thousand dollars each, and make a lot of noise.
            The demonstration apparatus I’m hoping to build will be entirely solid-state, using thermoelectric generators for control power and process heat for water distillation, and eventually an adsorption-refrigeration-based condensate-collecting atmospheric water generator. Beyond this, once something is known to be reproducible, it’s time for real systems engineering investments into end-use applications, not shoe-string efforts like mine.

          • builditnow

            Frank, It seems like the diagram I upload keeps disappearing after a while. Any reason for this?

        • Nicholas Cafarelli

          Thanks Robert. I am very interested in aspects of your apparatus. Please contact me through my amateur CMNS blog at http://ni.comli.com

          Your idea to implement RTD in particular is worthy of note.

          • Robert Ellefson

            You may be glad to know that today I picked up work on the control board again, and hope to have that ready to fab in the next few weeks. Let me know if you have questions in the meantime, I’m happy to be of assistance.

    • Sanjeev

      I’m glad that you are starting your own experiments. Where can I follow your progress ? Any links/blog etc?
      What is your source for hydrogen?

      • Robert Ellefson

        I’m not blogging or maintaining a web site. I’ve been posting my observations, conclusions and speculations that I think may have utility to others on vortex, here, and in a private group. I started this work in November, and got stuck on sourcing the lithium aluminum hydride. I put this on hold in favor of another, unrelated project, after learning of the difficulties being faced by MFMP and Parkhomov as far as reactor sealing and construction methods are concerned. Now I have all of the component materials available, and my light at the end of the tunnel for my other project is approaching, but my hopes for notable progress at this point are rather tempered by the amount of time my other work is still taking up at present. I’m hoping that other researchers will be able to offer better suggestions for sealing the reactors than I have come up with so far. I am not going with Swageloks like the MFMP is pursuing because I don’t want to maintain a cold-zone for the connectors. I have Resbond 920 and other candidate sealants on-hand, but the issue of moisture uptake by the LAH during sealant cure is an unresolved issue for me still. I’ll share all news worth sharing as it happens, but since this is a self-funded side-project, don’t hold much hope for anything significant out of my efforts, at least in the near-term. I’m only speaking of this all now, quite prematurely in traditional terms, in the hopes that it may inspire productive thinking among other researchers.

        • Steve H

          Stick with it man. We’re all rooting for you. Bob greener of MFMP may be able to give you some tips.

          • Robert Ellefson

            Thank you, I appreciate your kind words and support.

        • Zizzle

          To avoid moisture absorbance and reactions from LAH, a simple glove box can be made. This link might be helpful:

          http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Anaerobic-Chamber-aka-glove-box/

          Chances are good that if you’re a tinkerer, you have some of the supplies on hand.

          • Robert Ellefson

            That’s a solution to a different problem than I’m facing. I’m talking about the process of curing a water-based sealant without any moisture entering the loaded reactor chamber, not the handling of reagents in preparation for the experiment..

        • Sanjeev

          All the best !
          Perhaps putting the LAH into a tiny plastic capsule which can melt at low temperature and release the LAH may work ?

          • Robert Ellefson

            Thanks, Sanjeev, I appreciate your support and suggestions. I’ll put your capsule idea on the list of things to try; I’m sure I’ll be making more than one approach before finding something that works.

  • Steve H

    I like your style!

  • builditnow

    Magnetic pulses as an internal reactor stirrer:
    Rossi has mentioned in his blog that “strong” magnetic fields are generated in the reactor when it is running. Magnetic fields interact the same way that permanent magnets interact. Magnetic fields apply force to each other and where the magnets can align they will align south pole to North pole. Sending strong magnetic pulses into the reactor could act as a stirrer. One use of a stirrer could be to disperse hot spots, basically mixing and the active material (that is making the magnetic fields coming out of the reactor). This could help to provide a more even spread of the active material through out the reactor. I’ll post an experimental setup that is gas heated and has magnetic stimulation below.

    • builditnow

      Experimental setup for a gas heated, magnetic stimulated, air controlled reactor:

      A hot air system heating and control system with magnetic stimulation:

      It’s lower tech (no high tech high temperature windings), controllable, no pressure issues in the air control system and you can heat with a gas heater to easily achieve the desired temperature.
      It also has the ability to quickly dump lots of heat.

      Since the Lugano Report indicated kilowatts of heat, and the Russian replication indicated kilowatts of heat, measurements don’t need to be very accurate to get started with and refine the test reactors.

      I’m envisioning, a MFMP dog bone like reactor constructed of the same materials as the Lugano test and the Russian replication. It would be a tube sealed at both ends with no power source, no electric wires, just some high temperature thermocouples attached to the outside (and inside if you can).

      The reactor is placed in an air circulating system made of high temperature materials, built like a flattened circle mounted vertically. In the top part of the circle sits the reactor. In the bottom is a fan assisted gas heater to heat up the air and designed to not vent heat when the gas heater is not running. A circulating fan constructed of the same high temperature materials is placed in the cooler side of the lower tube driven by a motor outside the reactor (protected by insulation / cooling). If possible a similar circulating fan is also in the top tube to make sure that the reactor receives consistent moving air over it’s length.

      A cold air dump system is added with an air pump (could be a shop vac running in reverse) and control valves far enough from the reactor that they are not hot so they don’t need to be high tech (could be a used car automatic throttle control valve). The cold air dump system would consist of two down pipes attached to the bottom of the circle on both sides of the gas heater. The cold air in would be on the output of the heater. The air dump out would be on the in side of the gas heater.

      Explosion vents to be provided liberally. These are constructed as very thin areas that are designed to blow out very easily and can be replaced very easily.

      The whole flattened circle is insulated with a high temperature material.
      Around the top reactor section, multi turn fine copper wire coils are placed over the insulation and can be cooled by a fan with cold air. The electric stimulation of the copper coils can be provided by a standard chopping type dimmer switch or motor controller, preferably set to low (maximum chopped current) and designed to give a strong magnetic pulse.

      A programmable controller to automatically activate the cold air dump would be very nice to have.

      Data logging equipment is very desirable.

      The system operation:
      1. Load the reactor, seal it, test the seal,
      2. Place the reactor in the top part of flattened circle,
      3. Attach recording devices, thermocouples, IR camera via a suitable port with a high temperature window or small amount of cold air input to protect the camera,
      4. Start the cold dump fan with the control valve off so no cold air is provided (or it might be wise to dump small amounts of air to clear any leaked hydrogen out of the circulating air).
      5. Start the circulating fans that move the air inside the reactor circle,
      6. Place the safety gear in place, blast shield and fume extraction fans,
      7. Start the gas heater and bring the air temperature up the the first test point,
      8. Watch the reactor heat up,
      9. Look for any case where the reactor is hotter than the air,
      A REACTOR HOTTER THAN THE AIR = EXOTHERMIC, not necessarily LENR exothermic proof at this point,
      10. Very slowly increase the reactor temperature. Note if it is becoming increasingly exothermic (having an increasingly higher temperature than the hot air circulating).

      Expected results:
      A. Nothing happens, keep the experiment running for a week, try another reactor, talk to other researchers.
      B. There is a slight temperature increase. There might be a hydrogen leak, evaluate options.
      C. There is a very significant temperature increase. In this case the cold air dump system may need to be operated to keep the reactor from over heating.

      If you get option C. the reactor should easily maintain hot air in the entire flattened circle (which is well insulated) and some heat dump via the cold air dump system may be necessary to prevent reactor overheating. The external gas heat should not be required. The more exothermic the reactor becomes, the lower the temperature of the circulating air required to keep the reactor from over heating.

      If you get option C. working, enclose the reactor in a blast shield insulated box (with blast safety vents) and measure the exhaust air volume and temperature differential from the room temperature (a used auto mass air sensor and thermo couple could do). Measure the power input of the fans and remove it from the heat calculation. Now you have power output accurate enough for a multi kW reactor.

      When you have your reactors running reliably at multiple kW, obtain a small jet turbine (could be a model aircraft turbine) and adapt the turbine to be the heat dump part of the system. Get a turbine with shaft output power and a gearbox suitable to drive a generator, could be a car alternator charging a battery. Electronics can be powered by an inverter attached to the battery. In this case the system has to be much more robust with few leaks at 200psi. If all is good, you could have plenty of excess electrical power to drive the control electronics with power to spare. Then you have a self running system with no external connections. Enjoy watching the perceptual motion skeptics will go nuts.

      Keep me in the loop.

      • builditnow

        Here is a diagram of an air heated and controlled test setup

        • builditnow

          Robert, I like your thinking. Some kind of working fluid with a lot more thermal capacity than air would likely be desirable. One thing air could remain good for is a converted jet turbine. As you mentioned above, the magnetic stimulation only requires a small amount of power, so, COP has to go very high once control over the heat loss as well as heat added. The Lugano experiment only controlled heat added and left heat loss as unassisted radiation and convection loss.

          With an exothermic reaction, once it’s going, all that should be required is to control the heat loss and keep up the magnetic stimulation and that can be done with small amounts of power. The heat loss on a 10kW air controlled reactor could be achieved with less than 500 Watt for control circuits, air circulators and fans. That is a COP of 20. Additionally, most of this energy use can be identified as not adding heat to the reactor. Control electronics, control valves and cold air input (as the temperature of the incoming cold air can be measured). This could reduce the total energy added to 50 Watts for magnetic stimulation and air circulators, this is a COP of 200.
          For a converted jet engine, the air circulatory become part of the engine, so then it’s just the magnetic stimulation (say 25 Watts), the COP of the reactor goes even higher to 400. A jet turbine conservatively will produce 20% efficiency as shaft power. The resultant COP electrical = 200/5 = 40.

    • Agaricus

      I don’t think the magnetic ‘stirring’ need be particularly strong – Rossi probably noticed the effect almost from the outset when using 50/60Hz heating, and refined this by adding the ‘band heater’ in the tinfoil prototype to supply a field that could be regulated separately from the actual heater element. The stainless steel and copper of the reactor would have allowed a good part of the field through to the nickel. Parkhamov’s experiment probably also makes unintended(?) use of the field around his heater element.

      By the time of the ‘hot pipe’ it seems that AR was able to combine the heater and EM source (only the two sets of windings were visible in the ‘dissection’), most probably by overlaying RF on the heater current. I would hazard a guess that MFMP will not have much success until they begin to look at this factor.

  • builditnow

    Magnetic pulses as an internal reactor stirrer:
    Rossi has mentioned in his blog that “strong” magnetic fields are generated in the reactor when it is running. Magnetic fields interact the same way that permanent magnets interact. Magnetic fields apply force to each other and where the magnets can align they will align south pole to North pole. Sending strong magnetic pulses into the reactor could act as a stirrer. One use of a stirrer could be to disperse hot spots, basically mixing and the active material (that is making the magnetic fields coming out of the reactor). This could help to provide a more even spread of the active material through out the reactor. I’ll post an experimental setup that is gas heated and has magnetic stimulation below.

    • builditnow

      Experimental setup for a gas heated, magnetic stimulated, air controlled reactor:

      A hot air system heating and control system with magnetic stimulation:

      It’s lower tech (no high tech high temperature windings), controllable, no pressure issues in the air control system and you can heat with a gas heater to easily achieve the desired temperature.
      It also has the ability to quickly dump lots of heat.

      Since the Lugano Report indicated kilowatts of heat, and the Russian replication indicated kilowatts of heat, measurements don’t need to be very accurate to get started with and refine the test reactors.

      I’m envisioning, a MFMP dog bone like reactor constructed of the same materials as the Lugano test and the Russian replication. It would be a tube sealed at both ends with no power source, no electric wires, just some high temperature thermocouples attached to the outside (and inside if you can).

      The reactor is placed in an air circulating system made of high temperature materials, built like a flattened circle mounted vertically. In the top part of the circle sits the reactor. In the bottom is a fan assisted gas heater to heat up the air and designed to not vent heat when the gas heater is not running. A circulating fan constructed of the same high temperature materials is placed in the cooler side of the lower tube driven by a motor outside the reactor (protected by insulation / cooling). If possible a similar circulating fan is also in the top tube to make sure that the reactor receives consistent moving air over it’s length.

      A cold air dump system is added with an air pump (could be a shop vac running in reverse) and control valves far enough from the reactor that they are not hot so they don’t need to be high tech (could be a used car automatic throttle control valve). The cold air dump system would consist of two down pipes attached to the bottom of the circle on both sides of the gas heater. The cold air in would be on the output of the heater. The air dump out would be on the in side of the gas heater.

      Explosion vents to be provided liberally. These are constructed as very thin areas that are designed to blow out very easily and can be replaced very easily.

      The whole flattened circle is insulated with a high temperature material.
      Around the top reactor section, multi turn fine copper wire coils are placed over the insulation and can be cooled by a fan with cold air. The electric stimulation of the copper coils can be provided by a standard chopping type dimmer switch or motor controller, preferably set to low (maximum chopped current) and designed to give a strong magnetic pulse.

      A programmable controller to automatically activate the cold air dump would be very nice to have.

      Data logging equipment is very desirable.

      The system operation:
      1. Load the reactor, seal it, test the seal,
      2. Place the reactor in the top part of flattened circle,
      3. Attach recording devices, thermocouples, IR camera via a suitable port with a high temperature window or small amount of cold air input to protect the camera,
      4. Start the cold dump fan with the control valve off so no cold air is provided (or it might be wise to dump small amounts of air to clear any leaked hydrogen out of the circulating air).
      5. Start the circulating fans that move the air inside the reactor circle,
      6. Place the safety gear in place, blast shield and fume extraction fans,
      7. Start the gas heater and bring the air temperature up the the first test point,
      8. Watch the reactor heat up,
      9. Look for any case where the reactor is hotter than the air,
      A REACTOR HOTTER THAN THE AIR = EXOTHERMIC, not necessarily LENR exothermic proof at this point,
      10. Very slowly increase the reactor temperature. Note if it is becoming increasingly exothermic (having an increasingly higher temperature than the hot air circulating).

      Expected results:
      A. Nothing happens, keep the experiment running for a week, try another reactor, talk to other researchers.
      B. There is a slight temperature increase. There might be a hydrogen leak, evaluate options.
      C. There is a very significant temperature increase. In this case the cold air dump system may need to be operated to keep the reactor from over heating.

      If you get option C. the reactor should easily maintain hot air in the entire flattened circle (which is well insulated) and some heat dump via the cold air dump system may be necessary to prevent reactor overheating. The external gas heat should not be required. The more exothermic the reactor becomes, the lower the temperature of the circulating air required to keep the reactor from over heating.

      If you get option C. working, enclose the reactor in a blast shield insulated box (with blast safety vents) and measure the exhaust air volume and temperature differential from the room temperature (a used auto mass air sensor and thermo couple could do). Measure the power input of the fans and remove it from the heat calculation. Now you have power output accurate enough for a multi kW reactor.

      When you have your reactors running reliably at multiple kW, obtain a small jet turbine (could be a model aircraft turbine) and adapt the turbine to be the heat dump part of the system. Get a turbine with shaft output power and a gearbox suitable to drive a generator, could be a car alternator charging a battery. Electronics can be powered by an inverter attached to the battery. In this case the system has to be much more robust with few leaks at 200psi. If all is good, you could have plenty of excess electrical power to drive the control electronics with power to spare. Then you have a self running system with no external connections. Enjoy watching the perceptual motion skeptics will go nuts.

      Keep me in the loop.

      • builditnow

        Here is a diagram of an air heated and controlled test setup

    • I don’t think the magnetic ‘stirring’ need be particularly strong – Rossi probably noticed the effect almost from the outset when using a 50/60Hz heater current, and refined this by adding the ‘band heater’ in the tinfoil prototype to supply a field that could be regulated separately from the actual heater element. The stainless steel and copper of the reactor would have allowed a good part of the field through to the nickel. Parkhamov’s experiment probably also makes unintended(?) use of the field around his heater element.

      By the time of the ‘hot pipe’ it seems that AR was able to combine the heater and EM source (only the two sets of resistance windings were visible in the ‘dissection’), most probably by overlaying an HF or RF signal separate from the heater current. I would hazard a prediction that MFMP will not have much success replicating Rossi’s reactors until they begin to look at this factor as an essential input.

      I believe that Robert Ellefson (below) is probably close to explaining the mechanism, with a ‘tuned’ IR input being necessary to ‘pump’ SPPs on the nickel grain boundaries (i.e., it is the IR environment inside the reactor that is important, not temperature as such).

  • Sanjeev

    I’m glad that you are starting your own experiments. Where can I follow your progress ? Any links/blog etc?
    What is your source for hydrogen?

  • Obvious

    I am a fan also of the kiln method. It does simply several things at once.
    How do you plan on protecting the wiring?

  • Ophelia Rump

    It also suggests strongly that whatever that effect is, it has a strong correlation to the heat generated by the electrical heating coils. I believe that there has been some speculation that part of the reaction takes place in the heating coils. If that is true then a substantial portion of the reaction may be eliminated when you use a gas-fired heat source.

    • Steve H

      My understanding is that there is a critical thermal zone after which magnetic properties become
      dominant

      • Ophelia Rump

        If there were no correlation between heat and whatever the effect is which makes the E-Cat efficient, then an electromagnetic effect could simply be modeled without the heat and require a low electrical power source to be added with a gas heat system.

        • Steve H

          Exactly

        • Gerard McEk

          There is a strong indication that LENR is being influenced by EM radiation. Maybe the magnetic component (dominant at low frequencies e.g.50 Hz) is decisive. If I could do tests then I would certainly make a wide and long coil with copper wire with wich you can investigate the influence of the magnetic field at different fieldstrengths and frequencies. I am sure Rossi has done that, because it is quite obvious. So it must be more difficult than that.

        • Omega Z

          If the Rossi Effect requires heat to jump start the Rossi effect & electromagnetic field for control or “Stimulation”, An electromagnetic field could supply both using the same coils.

          MRI’s produce a lot of heat & they use Helium to cool them. Most MRI’s produce a 1.5T EMF, but can range from 0.2T to 7T.

          Recall that DGT said they produced 1.5T during some part of their start up process & Rossi confirmed the the E-cat displayed a similar effect tho Rossi didn’t provide a T-scale.

          Also, If I recall, Rossi has 3 lines & only 2 have power at any given time. When switching the line power say from lines 1,2 to Lines 1,3, Rossi could be reversing the polarity of the AC current or maybe uses 2 sets of coils..

          NOTE: I could be a little off track here, But who knows.
          Check out MRI’s
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_resonance_imaging

          Go to Section: How MRI works-
          protons (hydrogen atoms), oscillating magnetic field, appropriate resonant frequency, excited hydrogen atoms emit a radio frequency signal.

          • Steve H

            The reversing magnetic field occurs naturally, due to the alternating current sine-wave supply. Some have commented on RF frequencies etc. but the mains frequency of 60Hz USA (50Hz Europe) is probably all that is required.
            It basically acts as the primary coil of a transformer.
            At 60 Hz single-phase the magnetic field polarity changes from +ve to -ve 120 times per second. With 3-phase this occurs 3 times as much.
            The noise emitted from a large transformer when it is energised is mainly due to this constant magnetic reversal. They are designed and built in a particular way so that the components don’t rip themselves apart with the magnetic fields and eddy currents.

          • Obvious

            The three phase is far less “bumpy”. The reversals are almost eliminated, due to the overlapping sines. Unless the sines are heavy chopped.

      • Do you think it could be possible (in the future when the details of the reaction is better understood) to use the heat just for ignition, and then keep it up with more or less “simple” magnetic stimulation?

        The COP would be impressive!

        • Steve H

          It seems likely with enough R&D.

          • If so, LENR would be unbeatable.

    • Steve H

      Heat at first – then a finely controlled magnetic field.

  • Ophelia Rump

    It also suggests strongly that whatever that effect is, it has a strong correlation to the heat generated by the electrical heating coils. I believe that there has been some speculation that part of the reaction takes place in the heating coils. If that is true then a substantial portion of the reaction may be eliminated when you use a gas-fired heat source.

    • Steve H

      My understanding is that there is a critical thermal zone after which magnetic properties become
      dominant

      • Ophelia Rump

        If there were no correlation between heat and whatever the effect is which makes the E-Cat efficient, then an electromagnetic effect could simply be modeled without the heat and require a low electrical power source to be added with a gas heat system.

        • Steve H

          Exactly

        • Gerard McEk

          There is a strong indication that LENR is being influenced by EM radiation. Maybe the magnetic component (dominant at low frequencies e.g.50 Hz) is decisive. If I could do tests then I would certainly make a wide and long coil with copper wire with wich you can investigate the influence of the magnetic field at different fieldstrengths and frequencies. I am sure Rossi has done that, because it is quite obvious. So it must be more difficult than that.

        • Omega Z

          If the Rossi Effect requires heat to jump start the Rossi effect & electromagnetic field for control or “Stimulation”, An electromagnetic field could supply both using the same coils.

          MRI’s produce a lot of heat & they use Helium to cool them. Most MRI’s produce a 1.5T EMF, but can range from 0.2T to 7T.

          Recall that DGT said they produced 1.5T during some part of their start up process & Rossi confirmed the the E-cat displayed a similar effect tho Rossi didn’t provide a T-scale.

          Also, If I recall, Rossi has 3 lines & only 2 have power at any given time. When switching the line power say from lines 1,2 to Lines 1,3, Rossi could be reversing the polarity of the AC current or maybe uses 2 sets of coils..

          NOTE: I could be a little off track here, But who knows.
          Check out MRI’s
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_resonance_imaging

          Go to Section: How MRI works-
          protons (hydrogen atoms), oscillating magnetic field, appropriate resonant frequency, excited hydrogen atoms emit a radio frequency signal.

          • Steve H

            The reversing magnetic field occurs naturally, due to the alternating current, sine-wave supply to the heating element. Some have commented on RF frequencies etc. but the mains frequency of 60Hz USA (50Hz Europe) is probably all that is required.
            It basically acts as the primary coil of a transformer.
            At 60 Hz single-phase the magnetic field polarity changes from +ve to -ve 120 times per second. With 3-phase this occurs 3 times as much.
            The noise emitted from a large transformer when it is energised is mainly due to this constant magnetic reversal. They are designed and built in a particular way so that the components don’t rip themselves apart with the magnetic fields and eddy currents.

          • Obvious

            The three phase is far less “bumpy”. The reversals are almost eliminated, due to the overlapping sines. Unless the sines are heavy chopped.
            Edit: I’m not entirely happy with my comment, which was written in a hurry.

      • Do you think it could be possible (in the future when the details of the reaction is better understood) to use the heat just for ignition, then switch it off (or remove the heating elements) and keep the reaction up with more or less “simple” magnetic stimulation?

        The COP would be impressive!

        • Steve H

          It seems likely with enough R&D.

          • If so, LENR would be unbeatable.

    • Steve H

      Heat at first – then a finely controlled magnetic field.

  • Steve H

    Gentlemen – WE ARE ON FIRE

    THIS IS THE NEW WORLD ORDER!

  • Steve H

    🙂

  • Steve H

    Stick with it man. We’re all rooting for you. Bob greener of MFMP may be able to give you some tips.

  • Obvious

    I had intended to do kiln tests without any wiring at all, other than temp sensors. I suppose you will do some like that anyway as baseline tests. It should be interesting to see if the extra stimulation, …, actually stimulates the reaction.

  • Zizzle

    To avoid moisture absorbance and reactions from LAH, a simple glove box can be made. This link might be helpful:

    http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Anaerobic-Chamber-aka-glove-box/

    Chances are good that if you’re a tinkerer, you have some of the supplies on hand.

  • Gerrit

    can it be that the heat has to be delivered as heat radiation with a certain frequency, or frequency band. The thermal energy out comes with a different frequency, or is thermalized further away from the actual reaction ?

    • Obvious

      I am thinking something along these lines. Instead of a black body, there is a resonant grey body series, stoked by kinetic energy supplied by the heater.

  • Gerrit

    can it be that the heat has to be delivered as heat radiation with a certain frequency, or frequency band. The thermal energy out comes with a different frequency, or is thermalized further away from the actual reaction ?

    • Moose

      Kind of sounds like a phosphorescence principle but with heat radiation instead of visible/uv radiation.

    • Obvious

      I am thinking something along these lines. Instead of a black body, there is a resonant grey body series, stoked by kinetic energy supplied by the heater.

  • Sanjeev

    All the best !
    Perhaps putting the LAH into a tiny plastic capsule which can melt at low temperature and release the LAH may work ?

    • Robert Ellefson

      Thanks, Sanjeev, I appreciate your support and suggestions. I’ll put your capsule idea on the list of things to try; I’m sure I’ll be making more than one approach before finding something that works.

  • Axil Axil

    Disregard… duplicate

    Why does everybody assume that the EMF application to the E Cat is positive. It can just as well retard the reaction to keep it under control. It is possible that Rossi applies RF to dampen the reaction so that it does not explode. The gas fired reactor might well explode all the time whereas the electrically heated reactor runs stably.

    No one knows what type of EMF signal Rossi sends through the heating coils because the output of that backbox coil controller is secret. He could send high frequency RF signals over top of the power frequency to keep the BANG from happening. A BANG could be produced all the time in the gas fired E Cat.

    • builditnow

      Yes, magnetic stimulation could be used to help disburse hot spots like a stirrer and help even out the temperature in the reactor. This is particularly important if the reaction become more exothermic as the temperature rises, as all indications are that it does. Hot spots could develop that get hotter and hotter, thus generating more heat which could lead to a runaway heat bubble and destroy the reactor. I favor that pulsed alternating magnetic fields do not create increased reactions, but rather smooth out the hot spots.

      I’m purely guessing on this one.

  • Axil Axil

    Disregard… duplicate

    Why does everybody assume that the EMF that Rossi sends to the heater coils reinforces the reaction. It could just as well retard the reaction to kept it under control.

    A gas heated E Cat could explode all the time, whereas a electrical heated E Cat is well controlled. A high frequency RF signal may be embedded in the power feed to the heater coil along with the 60 cycle power cycle. The power supply to the heater coil is secret for a good reason, it may keep the BANG from happening.

  • Axil Axil

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiofrequency_coil

    Surface coils are designed to provide a very high RF sensitivity over a small region of interest. These coils are often single or multi-turn loops which are placed directly over the anatomy of interest. The size of these coils can be optimized for the specific region of interest.

    Surface coils make poor transmit coils because they have poor RF homogeneity, even over their region of interest. Their small field of view makes them ideal for receive, as they only detect noise from the region of interest.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.howequipmentworks.com%2Fphysics%2Fmedical_imaging%2Fmri%2Fmagnetic_resonance_imaging.html&ei=GDbyVLDhEo2PyAS-04GwDQ&bvm=bv.87269000,d.aWw&psig=AFQjCNEQGJ52PqTs4iPgNDGJsIUArB9n6w&ust=1425246069189924

    The production of an EF signal may be why there were three coils in the heater setup.

    • Steve H

      Because freedom of speech and an education allow us to have an opinion.

  • Axil Axil

    Why does everybody assume that the EMF that Rossi sends to the hearer coils reinforces the reaction. It could just as well retard the reaction to kept it under control.

    A gas heated E Cat could explode all the time, whereas a electrical heated E Cat is well controlled. A high frequency RF signal may be embedded in the power feed to the heater coil along with the 60 cycle power cycle. The power supply to the heater coil is secret for a good reason, it keeps the BANG from happening.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiofrequency_coil

    Surface coils are designed to provide a very high RF sensitivity over a small region of interest. These coils are often single or multi-turn loops which are placed directly over the anatomy of interest. The size of these coils can be optimized for the specific region of interest.

    Surface coils make poor transmit coils because they have poor RF homogeneity, even over their region of interest. Their small field of view makes them ideal for receive, as they only detect noise from the region of interest.

    The production of an RF signal may be why there were three coils in the heater setup.

    • Steve H

      Because freedom of speech and an education allow us to have an opinion.

  • builditnow

    Yes, magnetic stimulation could be used to help disburse hot spots like a stirrer and help even out the temperature in the reactor. This is particularly important if the reaction become more exothermic as the temperature rises, as all indications are that it does. Hot spots could develop that get hotter and hotter, thus generating more heat which could lead to a runaway heat bubble and destroy the reactor. I favor that pulsed alternating magnetic fields do not create increased reactions, but rather smooth out the hot spots.

    I’m purely guessing on this one.

  • KeithT

    Rossi, Lugano, Neutrons and Electromagnetics

    From the Lugano test, 98.7% Ni62 in the ash requires that nickel atoms all through the 3D volume of the nickel lattice have reacted not just at the 2D lattice surface, based on starting with normal isotope composition nickel for the fuel transmuting to 98.7% Ni62 in the ash, this would require 316 additional neutrons per 100 non-Ni62 isotope atoms, assuming that each Ni64 lost 2 neutrons to become Ni62. (I think that this is unlikely, removing neutrons would be even harder than adding neutrons most likely each Ni64 gains a proton).

    Within a nickel FCC lattice structure, for every nickel atom there is one octahedral site and two tetrahedral sites, so for every 100 nickel atoms @ 3 sites per atom = 300 O & T sites.

    As it is difficult to get hydrogen to fill 100 % of octahedral interstitial sites and near impossible to fill 100 % of T sites, it is unlikely that larger lithium atoms would migrate through the lattice and fill the O sites, therefore lithium can only coat the 2D nickel lattice surface.

    If lithium is external to the nickel lattice and is the source of the neutrons, lithium neutrons would have to be first emitted then pass into and through the nickel lattice to then be absorbed by the nickel atoms. I think this is unlikely; it is more probable that Li7 atoms closest to the nickel lattice gain a proton as a by-product of the environment that produces the main nickel transmutation.

    This leaves hydrogen atoms as the source, so with full loading providing an individual hydrogen atom in each O site, i.e. a single proton per O site, this combines with an electron providing the neutron.

    The neutron is produced and combines with the Nickel atom due to; hydrogen atom confinement within the O site (from having as near 100% loading of O sites as possible), contact pressure from the lattice structure trying to contract (metal bond dimension for empty lattice versus stretched / expanded lattice from hydrogen filling), additional pressure from the heated lattice structure (vibration of the lattice due to the additional energy from being heated), and additional pressure from magnetic resonance of the nickel lattice structure (high frequency electrically induced, superimposed on the resistance heating coil supply – tungsten with Inconel tails, Andrea Rossi mentions “electromagnetics” on Feb. 1st 9.07pm, the Lugano report summary on page 30 mentions “some electro-magnetic stimulation”). Magnetic resonance induces vibration of the lattice structure to be ordered and in phase, it is likely that there will be more than one potential driving frequency with each frequency producing a different resonant lattice vibration modal structure. At least one of these frequencies is likely to produce the required constructive / destructive interference patterns from the combining of pressure waves traveling through the lattice. All these different pressure mechanisms will combine to produce occasional random localised extreme pressure events where there will be low momentum collisions between the O site confined hydrogen atom and the nickel atom locked into the vibrating lattice.

    As lighter nickel isotopes are transmuted towards Ni62 using up hydrogen atoms, replacement hydrogen atoms from external to the nickel lattice are pushed into the lattice, (via a lithium / hydrogen and other compound COATING of the nickel particle providing a hydrogen spillover effect, i.e. “catalyst”), the hydrogen atoms are then pushed through the lattice into the vacated O sites to be in turn reacted until Ni62 dominates the ash.

    Keith Thomson.

    • Robert Ellefson

      Keith, when you compare the fuel-vs-ash photographs of the nickel grains, what emerges in the ash has transformed from a typical carbonyl-process nickel surface morphology (ie spiky and rough, not smooth) to a smooth, sintered-appearing surface. This suggests to me that during reactor operation, at least the surface layers of that nickel grain are in a liquid state, as evidenced by the ash photograph (page 43, particle 1 of figure 2). Have you considered this possibility?

      • KeithT

        Robert,

        For the nickel powder to form the basis of a reaction I believe that it has to be coated, if a mixture of chemical powders were loose mixed then placed in a tube and thermally heated all that you get is classical chemistry no more no less.

        A suitable powder would require carbonyl nickel powder; this would first be heated then thermally shocked with say cold hydrogen gas to induce cracks and open up the grain boundaries, then the nickel would be mixed with a lithium / hydrogen based catalyst powder and hot melted, if the molten catalyst salt is sufficiently low viscosity it will be absorbed by capillary action into the cracks, fissures and open grain boundaries, on cooling the solid can be broken up back into powder. Andrea Rossi is an expert in the field of hot melts from his days of exploring thermoelectric materials.

        The powder may require further high pressure loading with hydrogen for a period of time.

        Although the powder is heated up to 1400 degrees C, this is still short of full melting at 1455 degrees C, the crystals within the particles will have grown and merged, surface tension has pulled the structures to be more spherical, there will be contact fusing and agglomeration, some of the catalyst chemicals is still present attached to the nickel but will now coat the surface as a liquid and be embedded within the globules where it was embedded originally within the cracks, fissures and grain boundaries, this embedded catalyst provides pathways for hydrogen distribution into the nickel, (the catalyst would require a boiling point higher than 1400 degrees C), the nickel will still have a lattice structure as the atomic metallic bonds are still present, however the structures will have lost almost all stiffness and are now very flexible.

        As long as hydrogen is still trapped within the nickel atomic lattice the conditions will now be suitable for the reactions to take place.

        Keith Thomson

        • Robert Ellefson

          The surface conditioning and subsequent chemical composition you describe all makes sense for the initial conditions, and during reactor startup, but the steady-state condition does not seem to fit the surface chemical profile you describe, as evidenced by the ash composition analysis for that particle. The EDS spectrum for that ash nickel grain seems to show it is almost entirely nickel itself, not a smooth coating of other elements. This is that EDS plot, from Figure 4 on page 45 of the Lugano report:

          • KeithT

            Robert,

            I have doubts that the analysis of the fuel and ash was fully representative, the sample size is reported as being small, also from appendix 3, page41, there is a statement “Thus, all spectrum presented henceforth is acquired from sputter cleaned areas.”

            The samples were surface cleaned to get the bulk analysis.

            Keith Thomson

          • Robert Ellefson

            The same sputter cleaning process was applied to both of the photographs that I posted above. The fuel grains still have distinct morphology that suggests their original carbonyl-process complexity, while the ash grains still look distinctly sintered, despite this cleaning process, which is designed to remove minute aromatic residues, not bulk-levels of material that would be needed to smooth out the rough fuel grain texture. Although there was sub-sampling of the entire ash charge, nonetheless the analysis results are for those particular grains shown in the photograph, as explained in the appendix. Thus, you really do need to account for the smooth appearance of pure Ni62 in that particularly-unique morphology that the ash formed during operation.

    • Steve H

      What he said!

      Nice one Keith.

      Regards,

      Steve.

  • Robert Ellefson

    Keith, when you compare the fuel-vs-ash photographs of the nickel grains, what emerges in the ash has transformed from a typical carbonyl-process nickel surface morphology (ie spiky and rough, not smooth) to a smooth, sintered-appearing surface. This suggests to me that during reactor operation, at least the surface layers of that nickel grain are in a liquid state, as evidenced by the ash photograph (page 43, particle 1 of figure 2). Have you considered this possibility?

  • Steve H

    What he said!

    Nice one Keith.

    Regards,

    Steve.

  • KeithT

    Robert,

    I have doubts that the analysis of the fuel and ash was fully representative, the sample size is reported as being small, also from appendix 3, page41, there is a statement “Thus, all spectrum presented henceforth is acquired from sputter cleaned areas.”

    The samples were surface cleaned to get the bulk analysis.

    Keith Thomson

  • Nicholas Cafarelli

    Thanks Robert. I am very interested in aspects of your apparatus. Please contact me through my amateur CMNS blog at http://ni.comli.com

    Your idea to implement RTD in particular is worthy of note.