Rossi: “Not Worth” Using Energy Storage for 100 per cent Self Sustaining E-Cat

Andrea Rossi has commented quite a bit on the lengthy periods of self-sustain mode he has apparently been able to achieve with both the 1 MW plant and the Hot Cat he has been testing. He recently said that he has come up with ideas, based on data from the Hot Cat testing, to revolutionize the Hot Cat (again) for even longer periods of self sustain. He said they shut down the Hot Cat to make modifications for that purpose, but he has not reported on whether the planned “revolution” has been realized.

He has also commented that a 100 per cent self-sustaining is impossible for safety reasons. This prompted the following question on the Journal of Nuclear Physics from Steven Karels:

Dear Andrea Rossi,

You posted “100% ssm is impossible for safety reasons.” While this is absolutely true, do you agree that with some sort of energy storage, e.g., a battery, the overall system could theoretically become self sustaining, i.e., require no external power other than startup? Or are there other reasons against it?

July 22nd, 2015 at 8:34 AM
Steven N. Karels:
Yes, is possible, but it is not worth.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

I do like the idea of a completely off-grid E-Cat producing large amounts of power, but I think what Rossi means here is that to include an energy storage device to power the E-Cat is probably unnecessarily complex if there is a grid-provide source of electricity available.

If there are very high levels of self-sustain going on, the input costs for the electricity being used to drive the E-Cat are probably minimal compared to the amount of energy the E-Cat is producing.

  • Daniel Maris

    I think Rossi is referring obliquely to downtime. All electricity generators have some downtime. If it’s 10% downtime with E Cats, then it is easy to cover electricity demand 24/7 as long as you have a sufficient number of separate devices and you have some over-capacity.

    • Omega Z

      Actually, I think what he is saying is a connection to the grid is cheaper then what it would cost to loop the E-cat with batteries & all the necessities. Battery storage per Kwh is not cheap…

      Obviously, you can always find exceptions. Just not the rule.

  • LilyLover

    Wow, this is a very very good news. Not only it speaks of extreme confidence in HotCat’s ability, but also declares unequivocally that the “positive or negative” can only mean “definitely positive”!!!
    Love the news. Tesla Powerwall – over. Storage batteries pollution debate – over. (In my mind! & I’m always right, right?)
    Now the un-emphasis to irrelevence of the grid is far more insulting of the “power-ful” “greed” than wanting to abandon it altogether. Why? It says – we don’t think you matter enough to make a statement to bother to eliminate your use. Because, if we wanted, we could always go back to storage batteries, but why bother? Since, you already exist as a doormat – that we don’t throw away since it saves a few more clicks on Amazon plus pocket change.

    I’m not sure this message will resonate with many; but with whom it does – Enjoy!! & Celebrate!!
    Happy times!!

    • BroKeeper

      No! Rossi’s input is plugged into his exercise bike’s stored batteries with a weeks reserve.

    • Omega Z

      (In my mind! & I’m always right, right?)
      OR
      I’m not always right, But, I’m never wrong.

      Says, Everyone… 🙂

  • Bob Matulis

    Agree that the payback for storage could not be justified if energy is cheap (SSM). Long term storage should be distinguished from short term UPS (uninterruptible power supply). To keep things smooth, reliable and for start up some type of UPS would be desirable.

    • Omega Z

      A battery just large enough for start up should everything go down. Primarily an Emergency backup. A small backup generator may be cheaper. Until there is a Major breakthrough on batteries, I don’t see them as economical for regular use. They will eat up any economical gains & probably more for a negative gain.

  • Omega Z

    With present technology, the E-cat would only be economical for base heat. A supplemental system will be need at times.

    Everything else has been discussed ad nauseum. The facts are the technology for off grid is not economical. Economical is the obvious point., right. Otherwise, you can go off grid today if you want. People have done it. But it isn’t economical nor even convenient unless your rich enough to make it so.

    Even many who go off grid have to live a very structured life. You do this at a precise time, that at a precise time. Not necessarily when it’s convenient. If you should miss your window of opportunity. Oh well. Maybe tomorrow.

    Batteries are not economical. They have a storage cost of 18 to 40 cents per Kwh. Note this doesn’t include the cost of generating the electricity you intend to store in it. This is where someone pops up & says, yeah but, there improving all the time. That’s true. Always about 2 years away from production. I do pay attention to this. That’s why I know many a promising technologies seldom pan out. Let me know if they start production of a dependable battery that has a storage cost of 5 cents per Kwh & we can talk. With that battery, an E-cat & the generating apparatus were getting competitive to what I pay now. Notice I didn’t say cheaper.

    As to residential electrical production. There are many complexities that has to do with how & when we use electricity. It doesn’t matter if it costs you 5 cents a Kwh if you only use 1Kwh of every 5Kwh generated. You’re actually spending 25 cents per Kwh. Thus, there is still economy in scale. Like a city level grid. What you don’t use, someone else will. The costs are distributed & economical.

    You mention a couple other things. One is run everything off electricity. If you’re doing this at home, It’s silly. Your going to produce 3Kwh to 4Kwh of heat to produce 1Kwh electricity to obtain 1Kwh of heat. No offense intended, but do some studying of how things work. Actually if it were to become economical to generate electricity at home, you will have plenty of waste heat. Utilize it for heating.

    Okay, You said 1 or 2 E-cats. People use much more energy then they realize. Like many, you’re just a victim of modern society. No Ones Fault. We are just use to flipping a switch & forget it. Many homes have periods of time when they use 75Kwh of Energy or more depending on where you live & the season. These are peek periods & must be taken into account. If you have seen pictures of Rossi’s Hot-cat, keep in mind. That is just a 3Kwh reactor.

  • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

    its the same reason hydroelectric dams use grid power, not their own produced power, to run the electrics for the dam, its not worth the hassle. All power plants work this way, so none are ‘self sustaining’, a best they have backup generators (usually diesel) to run the electric if grid power goes down.

    • Private Citizen

      Don’t hydro plants also feed the grid they use? Just because if the grid goes down and the plant needs a backup doesn’t mean it isn’t a self-looped system, it just means the loop has been broken. If the dam goes down, the grid often goes down too, if it gets its power form the dam.

      Even if not practical yet for Rossi’s current application, the most indisputable demonstration of LENR will be a self-looped system of some kind, running indefinitely on a few grams of rechargeable fuel.

      If LENR is real, with substantial COP, someone eventually will make a stand-alone off-grid generator, as this is the holy grail of energy independence.

      • MasterBlaster7

        I call BS on this statement.

        Rossi is geared toward low energy heat production with his warm-cat and steam turbine electricity production with his hot-cat; this is fine; this is the way it should be.

        But, I think what he means to say is that 100% self sustained is not economical in its current form; this is fine; this is the way it should be. Rossi is pursuing an economic model with a subsidiary start up company in a very aggressive field.

        Now, LENR, in different forms, say Jet energy with its M-NANORS or other tech on the horizon; There is no reason that LENR cannot be self sustaining and be safe. There may need to be some technical work done, but this is an electrical engineering problem; not something hidden in the mysteries of LENR theory. Maybe not right away, which is fine, but if the warm-cat and/or hot-cat are commercially viable, I guarantee that a small, fully self sustainable LENR device will happen a few years after Rossi is successful in his current endeavors.

        • Omega Z

          MB, What specifically are you calling BS on?

          An E-cat will always require power if only for control. Rossi says infinite SSM of the reactor has safety issues. Thus the required power to obtain or restart SSM will always be necessary. All circumstance considered, It requires an external backup. Whether a battery, a generator or a combination there of.

          Rossi didn’t say it was impossible to loop the system in this manner. To the contrary he’s said it can be done. He has merely said that it is not economical compared to retaining access to a grid.

          Note this is not unique to LENR. Nearly all Power plants of any scale depend on the grid to maintain stability & dependability. If they have emergency backup, it is only a minimum so they don’t bump into each other in the dark.

          If the entire U.S. suffered a blackout, there are only a few power plants with the necessary backup generator capacity to restart. They will in turn feed power to the grid to restart the rest. Note this includes Hydropower plants. Even with continuous flowing water, they still need backup grid power for controls.

          Many overlook the details.
          Say you have a 10Kwh Hot-cat. How much energy backup do you need to start it up. Well, it takes about 4 hours to bring it up to temp, So enough to do that & run the controls plus a safety margin.

          Buzzzz, Wrong. If that Hot-cat is placed within a boiler with 20 gallons of water, You also need enough backup power to bring all that water up to a steam temperature high enough to power the turbine.(About 300`C plus) & will involve many more hours.

          Your going to need a Tesla battery & hope these situations don’t happen very often. If you really want to be off grid, your also going to need multiple E-cats or much more powerful then 10Kwh’s. Keep adding up those additional $1K and that cheap energy isn’t so cheap. In Rossi’s words(Not Worth it)

          • MasterBlaster7

            I am calling BS on the scope of this answer. It infers that LENR is not economically self sustainable off grid; a chilling effect.

            When you are dealing with grid related devices or large installations, maybe it is not economical to use without some secondary power source to keep it going.

            But, when you are talking about laptop power sources, car power sources, and individual home power sources I believe that it would be economical to be self contained. Maybe, not to infinity, but until the LENR powder is depleted. A laptop, car, or individual home that runs for 5 years without repriming. Something like that. I maintain that it is an engineering problem in this area that could be overcome.

          • GreenWin

            One solution to both concerns is the evolution of central grid backup to MICROGRID. Say you have 20 neighbors who have elected to purchase 10kW E-Cat domestic units. If each subscribes to the local microgrid – they each get 24/7 backup and UPS services at a minimal cost.

            Microgrid logic can be programmed to backup AND deliver a small portion of each subscriber’s energy to power community centers, schools, medical clinics etc. i.e. Neighbors supporting neighborhood services.

            Microgrids will replace big central power grids. Same way home computers replaced big central computing centers.

          • Omega Z

            Yes, GW Something of that nature could probably be worked out.
            I would point out tho that everyone will need at least 2-10Kwh E-cats if not more depending on each individual home & geographical location.

            With a smart control system, these homes could also provide power to each other for peek demand periods as these will vary throughout the day. As examples, Your AC or dryer that requires 5Kw’s wont be running at the same time as everyone else’s. Thus gaining the economies of a grid. Everyone needs less hardware.

            Of course, the smart controller would need to be able to determine if someone deactivates their system & tries to freeload off the others & terminate that persons access.

        • Warthog

          I think that right now, the tech most likely to deliver the characteristics for “off-grid” e-cats is Geoge Miley’s work (Lenuco). His version of the “nuclear active environment” (nickel or palladium in a zirconium oxide matrix) requires NO external energy to start…….”just add hydrogen”. And the control variable is hydrogen pressure. Since his work is targeted to deep-space probes, it MUST deliver for very long periods of time with zero maintenance.

      • MasterBlaster7

        I should have read this before I made my post above. This is what I mean.

      • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

        Not really, very rarely is an area provided for by only one source of power. Also the power produced by a hydro dam is also sent away at extremely high voltage to a transfer station, which is basically a huge structure that steps down the voltage to the normal high voltage lines that further get stepped down by local transformers to 110/220. Eventually some of its own power might make it back to itself, but by then its mixed with all the other power sources on the grid.

        Even in places with primarily one source, they are connected to the larger grid to allow for over production/high demand overflow, and even in these cases if the primary source went down it would be reliant on grid power or backup power to start back up.

        In some remote places with only one power source, you might be right, but then I’d hardly call it a ‘grid’. These places aren’t common in developed countries because they lead to a large chance of power outages if the plant needs to shut down for some reason (low resilience).

        The grid is designed to maximise power on for everybody, and aside from the chance of a catastrophic solar superstorm, it is quite resilient.

        • Private Citizen

          Hydro plant feeds the grid it also uses. That is the definition of a loop. Backup generators or ancillary power plants on the grid are just that, backups for the loop.

      • Omega Z

        PC,
        It’s not about whats possible. It’s about practical & economical.
        With the Grid, you have 1000’s of backup systems from the system itself.
        What would it cost to build individual backups for those 1000’s of power plants.

        Backup systems are not cheap & if you’re dependent on them, they need continuous monitoring themselves if you want dependability. We assume that energy generation is naturally stable & dependable as a society, but in reality, there are issues on a daily bases at power plants. It is the massive redundancy that gives us this false impression.

        We are so use to today’s systems stability & dependability that we take it for granted. That is a lot of piece of mind. Once you become dependent on your own individual system, that is gone. It is a concern 24/7. Every time the lights flicker your heart skips a beat. If I need a tech, will he get here today or will it be days. No air or heat, Your refrigerator is full of perishables. Wow, this could get expensive real fast. What is it. $100 to make it to my door plus how much an hour?

        Then there’s what if it quits in the middle of the night or while I’m at work or out of town. After a few years of continuous stress, you start wondering about those chest pains. Is it anxiety or should I call the Doc???

        People need to constrain their imaginations & think things through. Else Your Dream could quickly become a Nightmare.

        • Private Citizen

          >Backup systems are not cheap

          One can buy at any hardware outlet an off-the-shelf backup generator for a few hundred dollars that will switch on during a power outage (or A Tesla Power Wall, for a little more). Would hope my stand-alone home E-Cat wouldn’t need more than this.

    • Alain Samoun

      I don’t think that the E-Cat, as it is, would be used to feed the grid. Maybe only mini-grid to provide power to several outlets like apartments or different parts of a plant.

  • Omega Z

    For those interested about the Rossi plan to sell heat- Maybe this will explain the situation in a different light.

    When this was 1st asked of Rossi, He seemed caught unaware.
    On Follow up on JONP, Rossi spoke about agreements with Licensees & such..

    I was a little slow to recall this, but Hydro Fusion, A Rossi Licensee advertised for a customer for just this purpose on June10th 2013. Remember, not long after, Rossi made the Industrial Heat agreement & kind put everything on hold. Perhaps, things are just now moving forward.
    ————————————————————————————-
    Wanted: Pilot Customer for ECAT 1 MW plant
    10 Jun 2013/in News

    Hydro Fusion is looking for a Pilot Customer for the first ECAT 1 MW Plant to operate in Sweden. The customer will only pay for the energy produced by the ECAT, i.e. Hydro Fusion will take responsibility for all associated costs including: the plant itself, installation and any transportation costs. In return the Pilot Customer agrees upon
    read more at:

    http://hydrofusion.com/news/wanted-pilot-customer-for-ecat-1-mw-plant

    • Paul Smith

      Hydro Fusion is impatient, but it’s better if they wait till 2016 and use the actual improved model of 1MW plant.

  • Mark

    what area are they supposed to be located again?

    • Miami – North Carolina line? Just guessing.

      • Paul Smith

        Maybe the Customer could be this?
        J.M. Products Inc. – Carpet & Rug Cleaners
        7861 NW 46th Street Doral FL

        Someone found documents where they talked about the E-Cat plant

        • Fibber McGourlick

          Talk about selling heat this way or that way is fine, but the real point is that when the world sees low-cost, pollution-free heat is actually being produced by COLD FUSION all hell will break loose on this planet and a new era (new science, new economy, new plenty) will begin immediately and proceed with a rapidity that’s utterly mind boggling.

          • Omega Z

            Fibb
            I agree people in certain realms will take interest. Beyond that, transition will take decades. It’s all economics. It’s not what one wants but what & when one can afford it. The so called green energies will take about 75 years to fully transition. I would guess LENR will be about 50 years due to the fact it’s energy output will be substantially cheaper. Thus these savings will finance the faster transition.

            As to the Masses, They don’t care as long as the lights come on when they flip the switch. What I find surreal about people is that if you lower their utility bills by 90%, they will still beach about it. In fact, I know people that if they have nothing to beach about it, they will create a situation so they can.

          • Fibber McGourlick

            The transition from the age of horses to the age of cars, trucks and tractors was effectively accomplished by the free market in a generation and a half. The Cold Fusion development is more fundamental and transformational than that, and will develop with hyper speed compared to major technology’s rate of progress at the beginning of the 20th century. If believe it will happen as fast as the Cold Fusion and associated technologies (once out of the lab) can be mass produced and distributed. Corporate conspiracies can’t stop it. They’re a fly on a tiger. If we don’t pursue it with all our resources, China and Japan certainly will. It’s all good. Be happy.

          • Omega Z

            25 years after high efficiency heating systems came to market & yet half of the heating systems in the U.S. are still not high efficiency. After 15 years, EV’s are still less then 1% of annual car sales. Both in a free market system with massive subsidies to boot.

            Start selling E-cat home heaters this year & in 2040(25 years) & about half of the homes will still not have them. It’s simple economics. There is only a percentage of GDP(About 5%) available for the transition.

            Big Bad China would be doing well just to transition their own country in 50 years. They have many issues of their own. Economically, they are barely hanging on by currency manipulation.

            I’ll give you Japan. Their energy situation is dire & no doubt they will put a lot of focus on this. Their also spending a lot on green energy that is not so cheap. Redirecting this spending would be of great help.
            ————————————————————————-
            You see a LENR reactor & see simplicity. It is of no more use to the average person then the gas valve & burner of any heating system. People will hire a company to install a new heating systems just as they do now.

            In the majority of cases, that will happen only as need arises. When a service tech say, Hey, They don’t make parts for this any more. I can’t fix it.
            To the consumer, It is cheaper to fix & repair then to completely replace. It’s “simple” economics. That it can save them on their heating bill(And pay for itself in a short period), for some reason doesn’t figure into their thinking.

            That brings it full circle to the beginning of my post. About half the heating systems in the U.S. are antiquated & inefficient. Note that “simple” economics permeates throughout society top to bottom. People change only as needed. There will be no stampede. People won’t by LENR reactors. They will buy completed consumer products. Those include full product prices. They wont be so cheap…

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Don’t under estimate “the powers that be” to keep it under wraps in full
            view for years, they have not even begun to use their weapons. Just look at what they have accomplished so far.

  • Omega Z

    And there you have it. It has no magical powers. Just cheap energy output. Nothing more. Everything else is just people letting their imagination run away with them.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Yes, it surely is paranoia but what a coincidence that the plans for the Passamaquoddy Tidal Power Project came to an abrupt end soon after this
    incident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8