Woodford Equity Income Fund Invested in Industrial Heat after 2.5 Years of Due Diligence (Update: ‘Long and Rigorous’ Due Diligence Process)

Thanks to pg for finding this from the Woodford Equity Income Fund website. This British investment fund (publicly traded) which has invested in Industrial Heat. Tom Darden said in his recent interview with Fortune magazine that Woodford Investment Management had made a “much larger investment” into Industrial Heat than Cherokee Investment Partners’ own $10 million investment.

Someone on the Woodford funds’ website posted that they were very unhappy to see the fund investing 1.72% of the fund invested into industrial heat because cold fusion appeared to violate the laws of known physics. Paul Farrow of Woodford responded:

August 18, 2015 at 9:19 pm
Hi John,

Many thanks for your comment and we’d like to reassure you that we do follow a thorough due diligence process for all our investments, irrespective of their size or the fund they are invested in.
With regard to Industrial Heat, we were, and have been, very aware of the scepticism about this technology. We have undertaken a rigorous due diligence process that has taken two and half years. The company is currently working with numerous scientists and is acquiring both the technology and teams required to maximise the potential of this, and other, new energy technologies.

The company recently said that it is willing to invest time and resources to see if this technology might be an area of useful research in its quest to eliminate pollution. We share this quest for what we believe will be a significant development and exploitation of new energy sources.


So it sounds like Woodford Investment Management have done some serious homework on Industrial Heat and have found that they like what they see. It’s interesting to read from this comment that IH is looking at other new energy sources — this would be in addition to Rossi’s E-Cat — which is something Tom Darden has said they are doing.

UPDATE: The LENR discussion we are so used to seeing has now moved over to the Woodford Capital Management site, with familiar names commenting, and some Woodford personnel responding. Here are a couple of exchanges.

September 29, 2015 at 10:03 pm
Can you publish some results of your due diligence on Industrial Heat?

September 30, 2015 at 9:34 am
Hi Alain,
It would be inappropriate for us to share our due diligence, but please be reassured that this investment is the result of a long and rigorous process.
Kind regards

September 30, 2015 at 7:50 pm
@Mitchell Fraser-Jones
@Paul Farrow

Perhaps you could explain why it is inappropriate to share, at least in general terms, your two and half year process of due diligence.

October 1, 2015 at 6:35 am
@Mary Yugo: We are keen on transparency and already disclose significantly more than our peers. We draw the line at revealing our proprietary research and due diligence on any stock we invest in, however.

More https://woodfordfunds.com/focus-on-long-term/#comment-6294″>here (scroll down)

  • Daniel Maris

    Wow! that really is excellent news. It confirms what some here have claimed – that thorough due diligence has been undertaken by some parties involved in this technology but that hasn’t (yet) been in public view.

  • Sanjeev

    I think this very important, such direct support without any “cautions”.
    This is a very big endorsement of Rossi and co.
    A major investor saying that his tech works and they know it and back it with millions of $. A very solid social evidence.

  • paul42

    Appears to be approximately a $40 million dollar investment.

  • John Littlemist

    I quote myself from lenr-forum:


    Woodford Patient Capital Trust total assets £844.8m

    Industrial Heat is 1.72% of the fund’s total portfolio.

    1.72% of £844.8m is £14.53m

    £14.53m is $22m

    So Industrial Heat got 22 million dollars from Woodford?

  • Gerard McEk

    Very interesting indeed! 2.5 years seems long enough for ‘due diligence’. Maybe a reason to invest some money in it?

    • Ged

      Guess the year long test must be impressing some folks! Makes you wonder how much the “Customer” is saving to warrant such investments.

  • Stephen Haigh

    There seems some confusion if its the PCT fund (820m) or the CF fund (6.2bil)?

  • Owen Geiger

    I love news like this. This is very encouraging, very good evidence that Rossi/IH have what they claim. Another bonus is thinking of the pathoskeps who must be squirming like crazy knowing those paychecks for trolling are coming to an end soon.

    • Mats002

      Yeah, the trolls have to decide from
      a) trolling another subject,
      b) stay tuned in silence,
      c) make themselfes the clown of the croud or
      d) stop trolling

      Tyy choosed c) of what I see over at LENR forum

      MaryYugo and others still to see. Interesting…

      • Private Citizen

        “Tyy” is Finnish for Swedish “tyst” (quiet).
        Should have chosen option “b)”

        • John Littlemist

          I would claim that “tyst” in finnish is “hys”.
          But there is certainly one ironic thing about Tyy. Believe or not, but his surname means “noble”.

  • According to figures in their June 2015 report, Woodford Patient Capital Trust PLC has total assets of £814,858,000 of which IH LLC holding is 1,73% (× £814858000) = £14,1M = €19,45M. Hope I got it right.

    • ecatworld

      This would be $21.77 million at today’s exchange rate. So about double Cherokee’s investment in Industrial Heat

      • deleo77

        I was thinking that things would be quiet for a while, but 3 big things have happened in the last month IMO.

        1. The granting of the patent
        2. Darden’s interview with Fortune
        3. This investment by Woodford

        Woodford, just like Cherokee, is really good at due diligence. That’s what they do for a living. Look under the hood and decide whether or not to invest. $21MM is real money. The investment managers at Woodford, just like Cherokee, have a fiduciary duty to their investors to do extensive due diligence on investments of this size.

        There is a lot that we don’t know, but we can say the following. Both Woodford and Darden have a lot more to lose in this than any of us. They have millions of dollars at stake, as well as their credibility with their investors. Second, they both know a lot more about the e-cat than any of us. Let’s just say for starters that Woodford has sent multiple scientists to go inspect the e-cat and watch its performance while in operation.

        I would bet real money that Woodford did not rely on 3rd party data to make a $21MM investment. They would do their own measurements. There is simply too much liability at stake not to. And look how much time has passed. They are aware of what Rossi is posting on his blog, it’s almost a physical record of their investment in IH. Both Darden and Woodford are currently publicly standing by their investment in IH. If they sensed lies, saw poor test results, or outright fraud over these many months they would have run for the hills along time ago.

      • builditnow

        My memory is there was a press release that stated IH had raised $11 million and was looking for $20 million, back a few years. $21.77 million matches these figures, except that Darden implied Woodford had put in substantially more than Cherokee so this would appear to push the total investment well over $20 million.
        So, at least $20 million it seems.
        In any case, it appears that Rossi and IH have access to all the cash they want.
        Rossi (the engineer) will want to have a refined and reliable product in preference to an early release. Expect delays.
        If you want a faster release, support the open experiments and or create your own.

        • note that if you invest later in a company, you get less shares fro the same money.

          the millions of darden may be now 10millions
          the million of Rossi should be a hundred million in leverage today

        • Omega Z

          Why have a 1 year pilot plant test.
          Well there is the obvious.
          Kick the tires & find the problems to fix before production.
          Average COP. Reliability.

          There’s another Issue on the tip of my tongue for a long time.
          It finally came to me. DUH? It’s a Big Issue…

          A major issue that has been discussed to death.
          Can Rossi CONTROL the reaction.
          Any Investor would want to know this without Doubt.
          If you can control it for at least a year, you have a good idea of the answer.

  • Herb Gillis

    Really good news. Looks like a reason to consider Woodford PCT as a personal investment.

    • Stephen Haigh

      Excellent, I already did a month ago when they were first mentioned 🙂

  • ss dd

    My BS radar goes on with this 2.5 years thing. IH announced they acquired the E-cat technology in Jan 2014. What kind of due diligence would Woodford be doing before then? My guess is they’ve had cold fusion on their radar for a while, but only recently had access to Rossi’s work. But saying they’ve done their due diligence for 3 months sure doesn’t sound as good.

    • ss dd

      Industrial heat joined the fund in May 2015, so they would have started to do their due diligence in January 2013?

      • EEStorFanFibb

        yes, iirc

      • Omega Z

        Did you mean “Woodford Equity”
        Industrial heat was founded in 2012.

    • ecatworld

      It’s a good issue to bring up, ss dd. I have been thinking about it myself. Andrea Rossi had been talking about a US partner in 2012, and we don’t know when Tom Darden started talking with Rossi. Possibly Darden has connections in the world of investors, and was talking to Woodford early on.

      • ss dd

        Yes, maybe.

      • Veblin

        We may never know. Why not start here.
        Welcome to E-Cat World!
        Posted on April 14, 2011 by Frank Acland

        • GreenWin

          In little more than 4 years, LENR has gone from “crackpot pseudoscience” to a pragmatic investment for the smartest guys in the room.

          After 65 years and $250B public funding, hot fusion is still 35 years away.

          • HS61AF91

            Fortuitous observation.

          • normal innovation takes 5 years from “it will reach the market in 6 month” to “you can buy it”.

          • MasterBlaster7

            I find that things come out a few years after I get sick of watching the day to day fireworks. So, me being here isn’t a good sign. Happened with broadband. Happened with last mile fiber optics…a few years…then Google fiber. I think it is happening with the Kanzius Machine…I got sick of following that, daily, about a year and a half ago…I hear they are very close to human trials. haha

          • Omega Z

            I watched a Video interview of Michael Mckubre a little earlier(Done within the last year).

            Seems the ITER needs to operate in a vacuum. They still don’t know how to block the released Neutrons from punching holes in the container(Known to be a problem since the 60’s). We have no materials that are up to the task.

            I Got This One. They just need to spend more money on it. 🙂

          • Alan DeAngelis
          • GreenWin

            Dunno Alan. After 65 years and $250B tax dollars, it might not be fair to call ITER “a bum…” But hot fusion elitists (ahem, MIT) have been sitting on the truth a quarter century .

          • GreenWin

            Reasonable. Perhaps some of the climate PR $$$$ could be redirected to spiritual change and managing abundance. Alarmism -> Abundance = AA. 🙂

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Actually he’s a decent guy who stands up to the mob at the end of the movie. So yeah, it couldn’t be ITER. Sorry Marlon.

    • EEStorFanFibb

      I thought IH did at least a year of DD before the January 2014 announcement. Woodford might have been doing it right along with them back then and only recently committed funds.

  • Stephen Haigh

    Yes I dont see why not, check with your broker. Its just a UK traded stock. LSE code WPCT.. This is NOT investment advice! 🙂

  • GreenWin

    LOOK… Squirrel!!

    • Omega Z

      I wonder if that’s the Squirrel Rossi spoke of in the park while visiting North Carolina. The one that gave him the idea of the mouse.

  • Bob

    Another positive development!
    I am surely interested in the money dispersion.
    20 million is a fair chunk of change. Over the past two years if salaries for Rossi, his assistant and 10 other engineering types might be 2 million at most. The container and equipment are much harder to guess at, but I since the selling price is projected at $1 million, this prototype should not be more than 2 million. Add another 1 million in lawyer fees and 1 million in testing (Lugano, possibly others), I see no more than 6 million being spent yet.
    Does this mean :
    The balance has not been spent.
    The balance has went to other projects.
    The balance has went to preparing for “commercialization” of the eCat, i.e. production facilities?
    It will be interesting to see how the story unfolds. But I do not think $20 million has been spent yet. Not even close. It probably will not be until the 1 year test has “Crushed” the questions as Darden put it.

    • EEStorFanFibb

      patents? somebody said they cost about $500k each to prosecute. Rossi claimed there would be dozens of patents filed.

      • Doug Cutler

        I was going to say . . .

      • Omega Z

        That $500k price tag will vary.
        The initial filing isn’t that much. It’s the lawyer fees that kill you. From there you have the continuous bleeding. Lawyers usually use student$ to do patent searches to verify that a previous patent hasn’t already covered yours. Then additional fees along the way. The fee increases with each country you file in, but there is savings in the volume.

        Note on Rossi’s Patent that was approved, Rossi paid an additional fee not to have it published. Rossi had to file a weaver on the do not publish just days before it was approved. I expect there are many more in the pipeline that are also blocked on publishing.

        • Doug Cutler

          A lot of cost also depends also on how many individual countries you enter into what is called the national phase. Apart from, I believe, the EU there are independent fees for each country. For many consumer inventions, patents are usually limited only to countries which might have lucrative markets. In the case of commercial grade LENR its easy to imagine most if not all countries as potential markets thus higher patent costs.

    • ecatworld

      Tom Darden has said that IH has not only invested in Rossi and the E-Cat — other companies and techs, also.

  • deleo77

    I have seen a couple of comments from skeptics on this latest discovery about Woodford putting $21MM in. They have put forward the following:

    1. Darden is pulling a fast one on Woodford and he is now part of the scam and is in on it with Rossi. The possibility of this being the case IMO? Zero. Darden runs a $2 billion fund, is a member of the Bar Association, and has a great reputation. He has plenty of money. Would he risk losing it all and going to jail a la Bernie Madoff? Would he blow his decades of reputation for a scam like this? No way.

    2. If Woodford did do 2.5 years of due diligence why haven’t we seen what they discovered in that process? Why are their findings such a secret? Well that is exactly how anyone would do their due diligence. Why in the world would you want to broadcast the results of what you found in that process? Of course you would want to keep it confidential. There isn’t a reason not to. And investing $21MM kind of tells you something about what they saw. Money talks.

    I have tried to stay neutral in all of this, but to say this all doesn’t work out would be based on two possibilities:

    1. Rossi is a master scam artist who is scamming everyone whoever comes to study and measure the performance of the e-cat. Even professional investors who have given him millions of dollars after hiring scientific experts to study the e-cat for years. This seems near impossible to me at this point. This scam would also have to include faking the physical transmutation of the isotopic ash, which would be a David Copperfield type magic trick.

    2. There is some kind of gross measurement error being made by everyone. Scientists and technicians from multiple continents and backgrounds are all making some major, undetected mistake in measuring the output of the device. I give this a higher possibility, but again we are talking about months of testing. The more that time goes on, the less of a chance of a measurement error.

    Long post, but a final thought. Darden knows how the e-cat is performing after 7 months at the customer site. Why would a person who says he likes to keep quiet just now feel comfortable talking to Fortune magazine? Because he knows what the performance of the e-cat is, and he has his patent. Darden is now starting to feel comfortable opening up. I would be very surprised if we don’t see more of this in the coming months. Darden only deals on facts, and he finally feels like he is ready to share what he has. The timing of this interview is not a coincidence.

    • builditnow

      deleo77 & bachcole, I just communicated with the MaryYugo team (telepathically, through dreams and when sitting on the toilet) and they told me on the quiet (hush hush) that they have invested $5 million in IH and are trying to discourage any competition so as to maximize their returns. They told me secretly that they are actually helping IH and Rossi.

      They also admit they have been massively scammed themselves, but, are very happy they way things are going. All grins from the greedy 23+ bloggers that go by Maryyugo and other names.

      • Omega Z

        Are you sure it was a dream. Or maybe a Rocky Mountain high?

    • US_Citizen71

      What we are seeing from Darden and Woodford is the PR train pulling out from the station for its worldwide tour. My bet is that over the next six months or so we will increasing see interviews with Darden and others in IH’s camp, along with friendly articles in progressively more mainstream media outlets. These will reach a crescendo that leads to a very public announcement that the E-Cat is real, has been operating for over year in an industrial setting and likely performance numbers and a more detailed theory of how it works. They need to prepare the media and the general public slowly and purposefully to overcome the FUD that has been flung by the pathoskeptics on Rossi and the E-Cat as well as the 26 years of FUD that has been spread about cold fusion. My guess is that by this time next year orders will start to be taken and delivery dates for those orders announced.

    • psi2u2

      Very nice analysis all around.

  • HS61AF91

    ? … Maybe not!

  • Alan DeAngelis

    They are sophisticated analysts. They understood that it was the upstaged prima donnas who were the most eager to declare F&P’s discovery “debunked”.

  • Jonnyb

    Any one know the difference between Woodford Patient Capital Trust and Woodford Equity Income Fund. Are they one and the same? have they both invested?

    • wpj

      If you have a fund with Woodford or other investment funds, there will be several different investment vehicles within that fund which will have varying degrees of risk and return. You will generally move from a more risky fund to a more risk-free one as you near retirement (as these are generally pension funds).

      I would expect that Patient Capital Trust is one of the more risky ones (but with greater potential reward)

      • Jonnyb

        Thanks, from what I can see they have both invested.

  • The size of Woodford Equity Income Fund, according to its website, is £6.94bn, and in the complete list of the fund portfolio (you need to register to see it: https://woodfordfunds.com/our-funds/weif/fullportfolio/ ) Industrial Heat is listed as number 64 at 0.26 percent of the fund, meaning that the invested amount should be £18mln or about $27mln.

    Regarding IH and Rossi — as I write in An Impossible Invention (beginning of chapter 19) the discussions probably started through Rossi’s US licensee Ampenergo in the fall 2011, with Rossi being involved after some months. The final agreement was signed on October 25, 2012 and the technology know-how was transferred before the end of that year.

    So if Woodford had contacts with Darden at that time there was plenty of time for 2.5 years due diligence.

    • Enrique Ferreyra

      IH says has invested in several LENR projects, do you know wich are those projects and how many $ have invested?

  • Omega Z

    bachcole, I Agree, We need to come up with a short hand.
    $21,000,000 as 21M$
    What do you think.

    Maybe file a copyright. The Royalties spent on our very own E-cat. 🙂

  • Omega Z

    I believe it’s in the $20 Million USD range, plus $11 million from IH.
    That’s what they start with, much left unspent at this time.

    I believe Randall Mills project is nearing $100 Million to date & Brillouin in the $40 Million neighborhood & looking. From these numbers, you can see that Rossi has spent a large amount of his own resources before Industrial heat entered the picture.

  • Omega Z

    As I’ve said many times. There is more going on then any of us realize.

  • Owen Geiger

    So you think people like MY spend hundreds and hundreds of hours writing endless comments all over the Internet just for kicks or to prove some stupid point? I don’t buy it. It’s much more probable that they’re getting paid. Case in point: someone who did research in cell phones was able to show how many of the comments on blogs, etc. are from trolls. This is getting more common in business now. It’s a cost effective way of boosting sales and shaping product image. To believe this isn’t going on is naive.

    • I’m not surprised.
      I’m not paid (I would like, but no), and I’ve rather used a thousand euro/$ for traveling, weeks of vacation, and thousands of hours to try to convince walls, and to help entrepreneurs to connect.

      Worst crimes, and best heroism are not done for money…
      The contact who managed the spy Farewell, and even Farewell, were benevolent.

    • bachcole

      I think that you are exaggerating the number of hours, and I agree with AlainCo. I spend about 2 hours a day leaving my comments, but I have several subjects. You could be right for all we know. But I am not going to embrace a conspiracy theory based upon supposition.

      • Agaricus

        Roger, I suggest you search Google on ‘paid trolls’. Trolling, particularly for govt agencies, is very real. Most of the ECN crowd are simply rigid minded bigots who are no longer able to understand the absurdity of their Pavlovian reactions, but MY may well be an exception. Just a couple of links more or less at random:



        • Andrew Hurley

          I want to know when Lenardo Corp will have an IPO

          • MasterBlaster7

            But is Lenardo Corp what you really want to invest in? Remember Rossi and IH want to sell the device so cheaply that it will discourage competition. Maybe it would be better to short energy companies. I would love to see the Motley Fool do a hypothetical investment analysis based on the supposition that Rossi’s device is the real deal F9.

          • Omega Z

            Selling Cheap doesn’t mean not turning a profit & even a small profit can be very lucrative. Tho many don’t grasp it, U.S. Health Insurance averages about a 3.5% Net profit & Big Oil doesn’t fair much better. All anyone sees is the Billion$ in profits. The net profit is small. The scale/volume is huge.

            From a Health Insurance Corporate point of view, I would much rather have a 3.5% net return on a 2 Trillion$ industry(70 Billion$) then a 10% net return on a 1 Billion$ industry(100 Million$).

            That said, Those who want to invest a few $1000 & become rich. Not going to happen. When IPO’s are done, The shares are offered up at what is thought to be current value. In Short, The original VC capitol tries to squeeze all the value out to themselves.

            Had you purchased $2000 of Facebook shares on day 1, Their value today would be somewhere around $4800. A nice return, but you didn’t get rich. A Rich person wouldn’t fair any better then you on his return. He merely started with more to begin with.

            Bottom line is the common person will not get rich quick off this, but if your young & make the right investments now, you may retire very well off in 40 years.

        • GreenWin

          It is telling that MY/Potenza/Hoady scrambled to castigate the Woodford fund for its IH investment. The sheer volume of frenetic behavior from this entity suggests skulduggery. After all, with trillions$ of stranded assets at stake, trolling departments ala Monsanto’s is a well-budgeted line item.

          ECW regulars will be waiting a very long time for their guv’ment checks. However, the best compensation is LENR success.

          • Agaricus

            That seems very likely – he probably needs to boost his Thermonetics pension. The alternative explanation involves white coats and psychoactive chemicals.

            P.S. Re. ECW ‘troll payments’ I said as much in a response to Roger’s reply to my post above, but both posts seem to have disappeared.

          • timycelyn

            To dig out a very tired saying, usually indicative of a pretty depressing workplace: “You don’t have to be mad to work here, but it helps…”

    • US_Citizen71

      Much like bachcole I too spend hours a day sometimes, fighting the good fight in online forums for other causes I see as just and in need of help. In 2012 when Amendment 64 was on the ballot in Colorado I spent 2-3 hours a day, every day for over 10 months commenting and fighting the opposition and I was never paid a penny.

  • bachcole

    I have just developed a terribly itchy rash. I think that it is the result of reading something MY wrote.

  • GreenWin

    MY advice: “If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There’s no use being a damn fool about it.” W.C. Fields

  • US_Citizen71

    I guess that makes me a youngin’ as I’m only in my 40’s. ; )

  • Bob Greenyer


  • Bob Matulis


    • bachcole

      Yes, wow. I doubt if Marry Freaking Yogi is going to dissuade Woodford.

  • Bob Matulis
  • Gerard McEk

    This all is an excellent development and should give us another indication that things go well. Setting up a automated Ecat factory (or perhaps a few of them) will require a lot more money than the estimated 50M$. I wonder if other big money will kick-in when the commercial phase is announced.

  • Right, missed that. In Woodford Patient Capital Trust, IH is listed at number 22 at 1.73 percent of a total of £844.8mln which makes £14.6mln or about $22mln. Thus a total invested in IH of $49mln.

    • GreenWin

      Thanks Christoph and Mats for the deets. Brings the total to $60M. Nice. Mats, can we look forward to a report from Belgium?

  • Agaricus

    On one of my rare visits to ECN I actually came across that suggestion by one of their regular ‘contributors’ (that many participants on this forum are trolls paid by Rossi or IH). It seemed to be a serious suggestion, which is distinctly scary.

    A few of us would have been quite well off by now.

    • timycelyn

      I glance at it occasioanlly and always feel a little nauseated after about 15 seconds of exposure. Padded cells and calm strong attendants come to mind. What still puzzles me is why Paul Story jumped the tracks so completly and utterly trashed what was origianlly quite a good blog.

      • Agaricus

        Yes that was a bit odd – the extent and speed of the volte face, anyway. I suppose it would be too difficult for him to switch back now, or even when the first CF products start to become available.

  • Maryyugo is a Nut case along with Steven Krivit they are relentless and pathalogical in their hatred for anything related to Andrea Rossi. It’s painful for them to believe that he may be right and they are wrong. Afterall 10 million speaks pretty loudly.

  • Omega Z

    When the housing bubble burst many property values were halved. It is these properties that Rossi invested in(In the Miami Area). Within a few years, his investments will double in value. Perhaps you think he should have put it into 1% return CD’s in a 2% inflationary environment?
    You invest to make money, not lose value.

    Note, There were hundreds of foreign investors vying for these same properties(China being a major investor).

    “Is anybody here wondering why Rossi is investing HIS millions in real estate?”

    NO. I wonder why you wonder.

  • bkrharold

    I am more impressed by the two and a half years, and rigorous due diligence, than the actual amount invested, which is not insignificant in itself. That means they began evaluating IH before the start of the current test at the customer site. They must also have been privy to the operating details eg COP and SSM, and any problems that have occurred so far. I was surprised to see Mary Yugo name involved in the discussion on the woodfordfunds site. I believe this is a synonym for a group of trolls financed by the Koch Brothers. As for Krivit, I don’t want to say anything unkind, but he seems to be waging a personal vendetta against Andrea Rossi for his own personal reasons.

    • no paid troll.
      true belief is best motive.

      If Mary should be paid it is by Rossi and darden, to hide their clear disruptive achievements…
      the results of MY&other believers work is that the mass of people is still uncertain, and prefer to believe in wikipravda.

      It will explode just more violently…

  • bkrharold

    I find it difficult to understand the motivations MY has to continue the cusade against LENR and Rossi in particular. Myself and most people on ECW believe in a better tomorrow through the promise of abundant clean cheap energy. If it is not money then can MY be motivated by a the belief in a worse tomorrow with a gradual descent into despair and hopelessness?