ECW Orbo O-Cube Testing Week 2 (Feb 15 β€” Post Questions for Steorn Here)

The Week 1 O-Cube Testing thread has become very long, so here’s a new thread to start out the new week.

For reference:

Week 1 thread

The Google document started by Ged which summarizes key information from testing so far .

The Spreadsheet with the terminal readings from the ocube

The video posted by Steorn yesterday showing some of the inner workings of the Ocube

I will hopefully be talking with Steorn via Skype this afternoon, so if there are questions that you would like me to ask please post them in this thread and I will compile them.

Here’s a quick video of the wiring setup using stuff I have collected. As you can see, it’s quite a patch-up job. I would welcome any suggestions.

Meter readings on either side of the resistor in the unattached circuit

Feb 16 2016

It’s been a long and involved day and there is a lot of information that has been shared in the comments section below. But I thought I would give a quick recap of what has gone one.

According to the video Steorn put on Facebook on Sunday, for the Orbo cells to charge effectively, they need to be exposed to what Shaun McCarthy calls a “reference voltage”, and this is why the ocube has two 9 Volt batteries inside with a 1M Ohm resistor across them. This means that despite the relatively high voltage, the current is tiny. Shaun determined from information I sent him that the ECW Ocube was for some reason not getting this voltage, so he recommended that we apply it externally. So today, I built the circuit with two 9 volt batteries and a 1M Ohm resistor in it. A photo is below:

New photo by Frank Acland / Google Photos

After applying this circuit to the ocube, the charging time of the ocube has appreciably increased. See the spreadsheet linked to above to see data on charging times. You’ll also see that the test was interrupted when while I was out I think one of my cats dislodged one of the screws used in the terminals and a short was created.

I have been in touch with Shaun McCarthy today. I asked him how long he thought it should take to charge with this circuit applied:

Not sure to be honest, shorting the unit will have fecked the domains up, the purpose of the applied voltage is to keep the domains pointing in the correct direction (or rather encourage them to return after a discharge)
I think the first step here is to see if there is any rise in voltage, that will tell us if the circuit is ok

Its tough to say if the applied voltage is really across the power cells if its still rising itself – the rise is very non linear, it goes through a BH curve type of shape, I think leave it for 12 hours and lets see.

Feb 17, 2016

Some more comments from Shaun from a Skype text conversation between him, myself and Rob King:

Q: What sort of voltage climb will we see at this low starting voltage?

A: I don’t know the units them selves are never below 2.9 volts, and the short out will have effected the domain structure. The applied voltage will reinstate the domain structure, but the time frame I really don’t know to be honest.

Q: At what voltage will the charge controller kick in and start charging the cap?

A: the cap is on our side of the controller board, so it will be at the same voltage as you are currently measuring, with the obvious note that something in the circuit is wrong and its unknown what is wrong at this time

Q: so is the cap and orbo in parallel?

A: yep, pre controller board

Q: so there is no controller board and the cap and orbo are connecter to the USB board

A: no, there is a controller board in this non li version between the powercells and the USB board
In fact there are a bunch of them in parallel to allow a strong current draw

Q: so the controller board takes a wide range of input voltages and outputs 3.7 or 5V?

A: it outputs 5v from 1.6v up

Q: the 5V then feeds the usb board

A: yep

Q: what triggers the blue light on the USB board to light up?

A: when a cable is plugged in, if it stops charging then the cable needs to be plugged in again

Q: so it detects a load being attached, and when a load is detached

A: yep

Q: but does not step up any voltage?

A: no

Q: I can see what looked like and inductor but might be a shunt resistor

A: its a standard board we buy in

Q: so the USB is 5v in and 5v out

A: no, sorry, in fact its 3.2 to 5 in, and 5 out

Q: ok, so it must have a boost converter on board

A: yep

Q: the new controllers are true li-ion chargers?

A: there is no LI in the revised cube

Q: what is in the revised in place of it then?

A: with the appropriate number of cells we can store 20k joules, hence no battery

Here’s a link to nice chart that has been put together by Sanjeev providing data at a glance from the readings I’ve been logging:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/pubchart?oid=1920631363&format=interactive

Feb 18, 2016

Here are some comments from Shaun McCarthy today regarding the current issue:

If you short the cells you destroy the domain alignment – we normally just throw them away, never tried to realign the domains before

In a way, however they have not been shorted – that huge spike of voltage is going to feck the domains around – not saying that we cant get them back alaigned, just saying that we have never tried

February 19, 2016

The day started off with something of a surprise. For some reason, there was a sudden spike in the voltage readings across the terminals U1-U2, which according to Steorn measures voltage across the Orbo powerpacks. See the spreadsheet above for the readings. Since the spike to 2.96 V, the reading has gradually decreased. Below are photos of the most recent readings

New photo by Frank Acland / Google Photos
New photo by Frank Acland / Google Photos

Here are some more Q&As with Shaun McCarthy about the current situation:

I showed him the chart of the voltage rise this morning:

SM: Its very strange behaviour, not sure what to make of it, maybe a couple of the cells are destroyed, I think leave it and see, the rise and then decay is strange

Me: Here’s a question about shorting. In the video when you showed the ability for the orbo material to bounce back from a short — you had it shorted out for over 1/2 an hour without any apparent degradation. Is it different in these packs?

SM: yes, but that was without an applied field, as you can see in that video its low voltage. We apply the field to ‘upgrade’ the output – so a short with a lot of energy can really feck around with the domains, so in a way it may seem the same but its like comparing falling off a bar stool to falling out of a plane. The strips in the video have no capacitance so there is no huge amount of energy stored, in the production cells there could be 1500J in storage, you short that and you are going to have a minimum of a couple of hundred watts spiking the domain structure

RK: So this is a common problem you have seen, that shorting the production cells does them no good or kills them

SM: Well it can hurt, that’s for sure – we try not to do it, the heat generated can be very high, a simple measure of the amount of energy stored is the amount that frank took out on his first charge, the only storage in the system is a 5f cap and the cells, so it will give you some idea of how much energy is released in a short, the difference being that in a short the energy is dumped in an instant, that simply causes issues.

Feb 20th 2016

Below is a video that I made this morning of a quick test using an LED that Rob King has sent me for testing purposes. We tested it out using the new multimeter and its rating is 0.22 W on the lowest setting (there are three settings) which I used in this video.

Here’s an explanation of the steps I took.

1. Measured voltage across points U1-U2 (apparently the voltage of the Orbo packs)
2. Measured voltage across the USB port.
3. Plugged in USB light until it was depleted
4. Measured voltage across points U1-U2
5. Measured voltage across the USB port.

The video was made at about 9:25 am, and you will see from the spreadsheet that the voltage acorss U1-U2 has climbed since then — no circuit has been applied to the ocube.

I repeated the test at 11:57 — video below:

Here’s another test. This time we have a 100 Ohm resistor across terminals U1-U2 for one minute, with voltage being measured.

Feb 21, 2016

I did another test this morning. Overnight I put on a reference voltage circuit off 18 V with a 100k Ohm resistor which brought up the voltage measurement from 2.85-3.18 V. When I took off the circuit, the voltage across U1-U2 f dropped from 3.18 – 3.169 Volts over a period of about 16 minutes. I am interested to see whether putting a load on the ocube can actually stimulate the “self-charging” behavior of the orbo cells.

Feb 23, 2016

Below is the first video of the charging test started yesterday. More to follow. In this video there is a 9V battery with a 220 Ohm resistor charging the ocube via the U1-U2 ports.

This is the second part of the test done this morning continued from yesterday. This time I used a 100 Ohm resistor with the 9V battery.

Part 3 — still with the 100 Ohm resistor. You will see the battery is losing power.

  • Guy Mann

    Why aren’t the Orbo powerpacks for sale separately?

    • Zephir

      Because they require external voltage and another circuits for their work, I guess. The selling them potted into resin cannot prohibit the inquisitive people in their study – on the contrary, I guess…;-)

  • DrD

    Goodmorning Frank.
    Here is a question pasted from the previous thread. It was added to by “FC” with additional interesting points but here is the Jist:

    Hi Frank, Please disregard this if it is wrong (I can’t view the video on FB or google).
    They use two alkaline batteries to provide 18V bias.
    My
    question is: why don’t they use an additional simple upconverter (or
    even charge pump) given that even alkaline batteries don’t last for
    ever. Or are they only needed at initial start up but if so, surely
    there’s enough charge generated without them to generate the 18V
    initially?
    It’s really good news that Steorn are being so helpful.

    We went on to discuss alternatives in case the Orbo just can’t start without initial charge.

    • Something like this perhaps?

      http://www.health-answers.co.uk/orbo2.png

      • FC

        I think there’s no need to complicate things with two 9V upconverters. It’s simpler to have just an 18V one.

        Adding a small 18V capacitor would be a nice touch, in case the orbo power pack is so depleted that it can’t trigger the converter.

          • FC

            I’m sorry, but I can open it. Can you attach it to a comment, please?

          • FC

            I meant I can’t open it, πŸ™‚

          • I think I might have typed the link incorrectly on the first attempt. Could you refresh the page and see if it’s visible?

          • Sanjeev

            .png is missing from the filename.

          • Yes, that’s what I missed, but I added it fairly quickly. I’ll try replacing the contents of the post.

          • FC

            Yes, sort of.

            But I don’t think it would work like that. I think there’s too many loops. I wish I had a computer at hand, but I don’t.

            Anyway, I hope Steorn get the idea and figure out if it could work.

          • Yes, possible loops were what I was trying to avoid with the twin DC-DC converter version. As you say, I’m sure Steorn will get the idea if asked to comment on the possibility.

          • FC

            Yes, I see what you mean.
            Good job, BTW.

          • Just don’t magnify the image too much!

          • FC

            Why? It’s looks fine to me.

          • SG

            First and foremost, what reasons does Shaun have for the voltage reading across L1 / L2 being 0 V ? Can it be repaired by placing a 1 Mohm resistor across L1 / L2 ourselves ?

          • DrD

            yes, I think that works, assuming we interpret their circuit correctly and they might need some isolation but that’s not a show stopper.

          • Yes, a diode in either 18V feed leg before the DC-DC chip input might do that.

          • Added – but not showing yet for some reason (browser caching probably).

      • Stephen

        Maybe intersting to ask if the resin serves some essential purpose in the device such as thermal insulation or conduction, EM field insulation or conduction, to dampen or transmit acoustic vibrations, or to dampen or control other vibrations that may be essential to the device?Or perhaps simply to protect the device from external shocks?

        • georgehants

          Going by their researches, how long would Mr. Steorn estimate that a working unit would go on producing the stated power output.

          • Private Citizen

            Not for Mr. Steorn to answer that question, only independent judges could put forward their conclusions.

          • georgehants

            You seem to want to show your trouble making side.
            Unlike your question mine is simply giving a figure to compare the time working of a new working unit with his estimate.
            I am not asking him to give a definition of the time needed to prove no inner workings that on this page alone we will receive thousands of different estimates.

          • Private Citizen

            when faced with a contradiction, introduce a false distinction and continue

          • georgehants

            That may be your way.but that is not the scientific way.

          • Private Citizen

            was that a distinction?

          • georgehants

            You decide.

      • DrD

        Yes, that’s about it.
        Also agree with FC: one might be good enough and yes, needs a capacitor.

        Frank, I suppose it’s not so much a question as a suggestion.

        My original “question” was aimed at understanding how can it be as good as “everlasting” but I understand they answered that by saying it’s a compromise (1 year warranty).

      • Private Citizen

        Also, please ask Sean to ship the made-in-Ireland O-Girl and the comely pub manager to the USA ASAP. No doubts about quality control there πŸ™‚

        • Roberto Siquieros

          I think they’ll be staying in western Europe the v. much πŸ™‚

  • DrD

    Goodmorning Frank.
    Here is a question pasted from the previous thread. It was added to by “FC” with additional interesting points but here is the Jist:

    Hi Frank, Please disregard this if it is wrong (I can’t view the video on FB or google).
    They use two alkaline batteries to provide 18V bias.
    My question is: why don’t they use an additional simple upconverter (or
    even charge pump) given that even alkaline batteries don’t last for
    ever. Or are they only needed at initial start up but if so, surely
    there’s enough charge generated without them to generate the 18V
    initially?
    It’s really good news that Steorn’s being so helpful.

    We went on to discuss alternatives in case the Orbo just can’t start without initial charge.

    • Something like this perhaps?

      http://www.health-answers.co.uk/orbo2.png

      • FC

        I think there’s no need to complicate things with two 9V upconverters. It’s simpler to have just an 18V one.

        Adding a small 18V capacitor would be a nice touch, in case the orbo power pack is so depleted that it can’t trigger the converter.

          • FC

            I’m sorry, but I can open it. Can you attach it to a comment, please?

          • FC

            I meant I can’t open it, πŸ™‚

          • I think I might have typed the link incorrectly on the first attempt. Could you refresh the page and see if it’s visible?

          • Sanjeev

            .png is missing from the filename.

          • Yes, that’s what I missed, but I added it fairly quickly. I’ll try replacing the contents of the post.

          • FC

            Yes, sort of.

            But I don’t think it would work like that. I think there’s too many loops. I wish I had a computer at hand, but I don’t.

            Anyway, I hope Steorn get the idea and figure out if it could work.

          • Yes, possible loops were what I was trying to avoid with the twin DC-DC converter version. As you say, I’m sure Steorn will get the idea if asked to comment on the general possibility.

          • FC

            Yes, I see what you mean.
            Good job, BTW.

          • Just don’t magnify the image too much!

          • FC

            Why? It’s looks fine to me.

          • DrD

            yes, I think that works, assuming we interpret their circuit correctly and they might need some isolation but that’s not a show stopper.

          • Yes, a diode in either 18V feed leg before the DC-DC chip input might be necessary.

          • Added.

      • DrD

        Yes, that’s about it.
        Also agree with FC: one might be good enough and yes, needs a capacitor.

        Frank, I suppose it’s not so much a question as a suggestion.

        My original “question” was aimed at understanding how can it be as good as “everlasting” but I understand they answered that by saying it’s a compromise (1 year warranty).

  • Rob King

    Hi Frank,
    please confirm with Shaun that the diagram below is correct and the terminals on the back are aligned correctly. I am not sure if the power pack you refer to is the Orbo pack or the Ultra Capacitor pack.
    Because we now know about the 1M ohm resistor, then you will need to revert to the digital multimeter to do the readings, this is so it uses a resistance across the probes of around 10 M ohms for reading voltages. I am certain that one of the batteries has now become disconnected and Shaun may be able to confirm this with the same test in the lab.
    Hopefully we can re-complete the circuit with an external 9V battery.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I suggest we request a full schematic. I don’t think the 18 volts is across the Orbo powercells, yet on the same terminal as the output for the charge controller.

      Anyway, if this schematic is the case we should see pretty much 9V from L2 to U2; and 9V from L1 to U1, and we can measure the current output of the batteries by the voltage across R1.

      • FC

        This may not be directly related with the tests on course. But going back to devising a way to do without the two 9V batteries in future products, why don’t Steorn design a specialized Orbo cell that outputs a high voltage with low power to provide the “regular” cells in the power pack with the desired electric field, or reference voltage?

        In fact, it may even be possible to introduce this concept into the very architecture of every Orbo cell, making it unnecessary to provide such “external” electric field anymore.

        • DrD

          I can think of a reason but they might not admit it:— expediency. Meaning it’s cheaper, easier and lower risk (to them) and if the guarantee is only a year then they gain nothing for their extra design and development cost.

          • FC

            Sure. That would be a short term solution. But in the long run, if they really want to power portable elctronics, they need to think of a more permanent and less bulky solution.

  • Rob King

    Hi Frank,
    please confirm with Shaun that the diagram below is correct and the terminals on the back are aligned correctly. I am not sure if the power pack you refer to is the Orbo pack or the Ultra Capacitor pack.
    Because we now know about the 1M ohm resistor, then you will need to revert to the digital multimeter to do the readings, this is so it uses a resistance across the probes of around 10 M ohms for reading voltages. I am certain that one of the batteries has now become disconnected and Shaun may be able to confirm this with the same test in the lab.
    Hopefully we can re-complete the circuit with an external 9V battery.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I suggest we request a full schematic. I don’t think the 18 volts is across the Orbo powercells, and yet on the same terminal as the output for the charge controller.

      Anyway, if this schematic is the case we should see pretty much 9V from L2 to U2; and 9V from L1 to U1, and we can measure the current output of the batteries by the voltage across R1.

  • Gryphon

    Please forgive my naivete. Regarding the Steorn video, could someone please explain the purpose of the 18v reference voltage and why it is needed?

    • FC

      According to Shaun McCarthy, it stimulates the orbo power pack to recharge faster than by means of its inherent electric field alone.

      • Gryphon

        Thanks FC. Would it be the case then that there’d be a couple of 9v batteries crammed inside the ophone too?

        • Frank Acland

          Here’s a comment from Orbo on FB today regarding the ophone:

          “Hi Roberto – we had previously stated that the ophone contained two Orbo power cells. This has been reduced to one power cell.”

          So may be two 9V batteries are not needed.

          • Zephir

            So that Steorn is sending Orbo Units with random number or type of components? He isn’t even sure, if your Orbo contains lithium battery or not.

          • SG

            That might be a little harsh. I think the product has evolved over time, and is still evolving due to some problems in the field. Not out of the ordinary for any kind of product, really.

          • Blue Energy

            True. Nothing exposes problems in what you thought was a thoroughly scoured new product like delivering the first one. It’s almost magical.

          • Roberto Siquieros

            They did say in the webinar previously that ocube wld have two cells, didn’t they? Now it has 8. That’s a big difference and they didn’t attempt to answer my question.

          • FC

            I don’t think they ever said the number of orbo cells inside an ocube before.

            They did say that an ophone had two. Now they say it has one.

    • Zephir

      This quote of McCarthy supports theory about function of Orbo powerpack as a quantum battery, where the potential barrier serves as a Maxwell daemon for rectification of thermal voltage fluctuations. The well know overunity device captret behaves in similar way: it doesn’t charge itself, until it has some external voltage source connected – so it’s always used in connection with battery.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics_AWT/comments/3qyhml/new_video_reveals_that_steornt_orbo_powercube

      In essence the potential drop serves as a rectifying junction inside the semiconductor diodes for voltage fluctuations.

      • Gryphon

        Thanks Zephir, I think I’m going to need to do a bit of reading before I’m up to speed with a lot of that though!

  • My question would be, “Why doesn’t Steorn execute Confidentiality Agreements (or Non-Disclosure Agreements) with a small number of people Steorn trusts and then fully disclose all of the details of Steorn’s invention to them along with a working model which can be taken apart, examined and reassembled with the understanding that the recipients will only disclose to others whether or not Steorn’s invention performs as Steorn claims?” That should protect Steorn’s intellectual property and trade secrets but also give many others much more assurance and confidence that Steorn’s claims are true. I think doing that would also be enormously reassuring to Steorn’s investors.

    • Sanjeev

      Because anyone who signs papers with steorn are on their side. The trust is lost. It has to be completely independent.
      Probably they have done that already and especially the investors have done that before investing, I suppose. Now they are looking for consumer testimonials to go beyond prototyping into mass production stage and are also probably field testing it.
      I know, too much speculation here, but thats what I could think.

  • Pweet

    You could ask;-

    Why the 18 volt output from the two 9 volt batteries in series drops to 3.4 volts when the Orbo is being discharged?
    If it is only being used as a reference voltage as stated in the recent video then the reference voltage should remain constant.

    Did he mean it was a bias voltage perhaps?

    and if so,
    Why wasn’t this voltage sourced internally from the circuit rather than from two external batteries, which must surely act as a life span limit?

    Are there any test points across the lithium battery ( or ultra cap if it is a capacitor) on the feed to the output circuit?

    • Anon2012_2014

      9 volt alkaline batteries can be trickle charged to maintain their state. If he has a source of 2x 9V within the energy harvester, he could keep them going forever. They wear over time, but it is essentially like replacing the internal leakage current on a battery maintainer. If he is really only taking 18 uA out of them for short burst, he should be able to put that back in during the maintenance mode.

      What we need is a schematic that explains the entire behavior. Because Stoern potted the whole thing makes that a real pita and is a red flag.

      • DrD

        Yes, that should work. It’s a shame though, a potentially ever lasting product encumbered with consumables (atleast 3 of them) even though they might last a few years. i would want many years for !000 Euros.

        • Anon2012_2014

          By maintaining the 9V with only small amounts of discharge, it would last as long as most chemical batteries.

          But that still doesn’t prove the device harvest energy nor how much.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Shame — I don’t care about the retail product.

          I just want to know if they have

          1) A revolutionary energy product;

          2) A low power and boring energy product;

          or

          3) Fraud.

          I discount 3 to a low probability out of respect, but out of science, I have to leave that hypothesis open until disproven.

          (2) makes it to the Sharper Image store in the Mall. But I don’t care how soon it fails, as I am not buying one. At least Stoern then is a respectable business.

          (1) Makes a difference to me. To find that out I need to know the true performance, not the performance of something with a lot of alternative explanations hidden in epoxy.

          I like sleuthing for something in our little ECW community. But this is really just too hard for what looks like at most a 50 mW energy harvester. I am building one here at home on a breadboard to see if this is worthy of anything.

          • DrD

            I think that’s where I am too. Hope and favour (1) but can’t discard the others for the same reasons

          • Blue Energy

            What are you using for the electret?

          • Anon2012_2014

            Building an RF energy harvester to prove for myself that Orbo is NOT an RF energy harvester.

  • Pweet

    You could ask;-

    Why the 18 volt output from the two 9 volt batteries in series drops to 3.4 volts when the Orbo is being discharged?
    If it is only being used as a reference voltage as stated in the recent video then the reference voltage should remain constant.

    Did he mean it was a bias voltage perhaps?

    and if so,
    Why wasn’t this voltage sourced internally from the circuit rather than from two external batteries, which must surely act as a life span limit?

    Are there any test points across the lithium battery ( or ultra cap if it is a capacitor) on the feed to the output circuit?

    • Anon2012_2014

      9 volt alkaline batteries can be trickle charged to maintain their state. If he has a source of 2x 9V within the energy harvester, he could keep them going forever. They wear over time, but it is essentially like replacing the internal leakage current on a battery maintainer. If he is really only taking 18 uA out of them for short burst, he should be able to put that back in during the maintenance mode.

      What we need is a schematic that explains the entire behavior. Because Stoern potted the whole thing makes that a real pita and is a red flag.

      • DrD

        Yes, that should work. It’s a shame though, a potentially ever lasting product encumbered with consumables (atleast 3 of them) even though they might last a few years. i would want many years for !000 Euros.

        • Anon2012_2014

          By maintaining the 9V with only small amounts of discharge, it would last as long as most chemical batteries.

          But that still doesn’t prove the device harvest energy nor how much.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Shame — I don’t care about the retail product.

          I just want to know if they have

          1) A revolutionary energy product;

          2) A low power and boring energy product;

          or

          3) Fraud.

          I discount 3 to a low probability out of respect, but out of science, I have to leave that hypothesis open until disproven.

          (2) makes it to the Sharper Image store in the Mall. But I don’t care how soon it fails, as I am not buying one. At least Stoern then is a respectable business.

          (1) Makes a difference to me. To find that out I need to know the true performance, not the performance of something with a lot of alternative explanations hidden in epoxy.

          I like sleuthing for something in our little ECW community. But this is really just too hard for what looks like at most a 50 mW energy harvester. I am building one here at home on a breadboard to see if this is worthy of anything.

          • DrD

            I think that’s where I am too. Hope and favour (1) but can’t discard the others for the same reasons

          • Blue Energy

            What are you using for the electret?

          • Anon2012_2014

            Building an RF energy harvester to prove for myself that Orbo is NOT an RF energy harvester. No electret needed. That would be for a vibration or as hypothesized heat energy harvester, or better something that uses hypothesized Maxwell’s Demon harvester (as per Mr. Zephir), or something else that converts heat into vibration.

            RF energy harvester is essentially a crystal radio, i.e. boring but fun to build. I want to know what it can do in my house.

  • ecatworld

    Ok, just to be clear. The questions I’ll be asking Steorn will be pertaining to the technical aspects of the Ocube we’ve been discussing here, not their business model or marketing plans.

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, lets concentrate on testing first. If this thing does not work then business questions are moot…
      At what time are you expecting the conference ?

      • ecatworld

        Not exactly sure. He said there’s a meeting this afternoon in Ireland, and they’ll be in touch after that is over.

    • Perhaps you could ask Shaun exactly what test purpose replacing the lithium battery with a 5F capacitor served, and how we might take advantage of the substitution (assuming that we can ‘fix’ the problem, whatever it is).

  • Frank Acland

    Ok, just to be clear. The questions I’ll be asking Steorn will be pertaining to the technical aspects of the Ocube we’ve been discussing here, not their business model or marketing plans.

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, lets concentrate on testing first. If this thing does not work then business questions are moot…
      At what time are you expecting the conference ?

      • Frank Acland

        Not exactly sure. He said there’s a meeting this afternoon in Ireland, and they’ll be in touch after that is over.

    • Perhaps you could ask Shaun exactly what test purpose replacing the lithium battery with a 5F capacitor served, and how we might carry out the same test (assuming that we can ‘fix’ the other problems with the device).

  • Guy Mann

    You wouldn’t have to get rid of the black goo, if they sold the Orbo power pack separately. I’m not saying sell them so they can be replaced in the O-cube. I’m saying, you could just sell the power pack and let people test them, and see what they can make with them. Of course, they might not be selling them, because they don’t actually do anything.

    • damn_right _man

      Seems like they aren’t doing anything.

      • Zephir

        Yes, but we still aren’t sure, if it’s because the Orbo power packs just don’t work, or because their surrounding electronics got broken

      • You mean apart from having meetings to try to resolve the issue, and communicating with Admin to try to sort out the ECW unit. What do you expect, exactly?

    • Sanjeev

      Because anyone who signs papers with steorn are on their side. The trust is lost. It has to be completely independent.
      Probably they have done that already and especially the investors have done that before investing, I suppose. Now they are looking for consumer testimonials to go beyond prototyping into mass production stage and are also probably field testing it.
      I know, too much speculation here, but thats what I could think.

    • Private Citizen

      Please ask what test we can do to prove Orbo is being recharged by something other than a battery that some skeptic might try to claim is hidden somewhere in the potting resin.

      And how long would that test take to be conclusive?

      • georgehants

        Not for Mr. Steorn to answer that question, only independent judges could put forward their conclusions.

        • Private Citizen

          disagree, he should be able to specify how to validate a product essentially shipped as a black box

          • georgehants

            What good would that do as he is biased by definition, it would be like trusting a banker to tell the Truth.

          • Private Citizen

            No, more like asking a fellow who claims he sold you a hidden energy harvester what scientific test openly can determine it actually harvests energy

          • georgehants

            Only independent researches could answer that question.
            It would be like expecting a banker to tell the Truth.
            Please try and follow a logical argument.

          • Private Citizen

            disagree

          • georgehants

            Illogical

          • georgehants

            Why have you changed your reply without pointing that out?
            Why do you think ECW is testing the Orbo when according to you we should just ask Mr. Steorn if it works and leave it at that.
            Illogical

          • DrD

            Bankers/politicians and engineers are very different animals. Not that engineers are always trustworthy but — here’s hoping we will soon know the answer to this one

          • georgehants

            Agreed but I am sure you agree that one does not ask a person to evaluate their own performance one uses exterior criteria.

    • Without the 18V ‘driver’ p.d. they may generate next to nothing. It’s difficult even in hindsight to make suggestions, but I would have gone with just one product, the ‘O-phone’ – each one thoroughly tested before shipping. A jack or two could have been provided for experimenters

  • FC

    According to Shaun McCarthy, it stimulates the orbo power pack to recharge faster than by means of its inherent electric field alone.

    • Gryphon

      Thanks FC. Would it be the case then that there’d be a couple of 9v batteries crammed inside the ophone too?

      • ecatworld

        Here’s a comment from Orbo on FB today regarding the ophone:

        “Hi Roberto – we had previously stated that the ophone contained two Orbo power cells. This has been reduced to one power cell.”

        So may be two 9V batteries are not needed.

        • Zephir

          So that Steorn is sending Orbo Units with random number or type of components? He isn’t even sure, if your Orbo contains lithium battery or not.

          • SG

            That might be a little harsh. I think the product has evolved over time, and is still evolving due to some problems in the field. Not out of the ordinary for any kind of product, really.

          • Blue Energy

            True. Nothing exposes problems in what you thought was a thoroughly scoured new product like delivering the first one. It’s almost magical.

        • Roberto Siquieros

          They did say in the webinar previously that ocube wld have two cells, didn’t they? Now it has 8. That’s a big difference and they didn’t attempt to answer my question.

          • FC

            I don’t think they ever said the number of orbo cells inside an ocube before.

            They did say that an ophone had two. Now they say it has one.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think the schematic looks like this. The batteries I believe are in series and the resistor is between the batteries and ground. I think some of the low voltages Frank was getting was due to a low impedance on the voltmeter that was attached to the Portapow, i.e. the Portapow acted like a shunt on the resistors in the circuit. When the 470k resistor was put in parallel with the current limiting resistor, the current went up by about 3x and I believe the Orbo “charged” faster. Sorry about the character based line drawing.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Trying to make the schematic bigger…

          • Anon2012_2014

            Please note that I am being gradually persuaded that this above schematic is wrong and I think that the OM schematic, showing the resistor between the batteries and a break between the top battery and the orbopacks is correct. Shaun seems to have confirmed this talking to Frank. The break lets us test with our own 9V batteries and takes the batteries out of the circuit. Simply cutting the red wire should make double sure that the battery circuit is not part of our circuit and lets us careful measure the power input from the 2 9Vs into the orbopack and the downstream power converter.

          • Blue Energy

            I think he shows us in the video that the resistor is in series between the two 9 volt batteries.

          • Anon2012_2014

            In that test rig of his in the video the resistor IS between the batteries . But the data or Frank’s orbocube fits better the way I drew the schematic and it wouldn’t matter for current limiting the setup where in series the resistor was between the batteries or between the batteries and orbopak.

          • Blue Energy

            No, that’s true – it shouldn’t matter.

          • ecatworld

            I’m actually still up (barely). I’ve just used my analog meter to measure on its lowest DCV setting to measure U1-L2, U2-L2 and L1-L2, and there is not a hint of movement from the needle in any case.

          • ecatworld

            3 different meters, 3 different readings. I hope the one coming Thursday will be more reliable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EYYJQOO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

          • Rob King

            Hi Frank,
            The analogue meter will have a much lower resistance on the lower voltage readings because it has to move a needle – perhaps 50K ohms. The digital will be the best for accurate measurement across the 1 M ohm current limiting resistor, this will be around 10M ohms. Not sure about the other Portapow meter but again, a different resistance will be applied across the circuit altering the true measured voltage.
            Not sure why people keep thinking the 1M Ohm resistor is between the second battery and ground – it would make no sense. With L1 and L2 across the resistor and the batteries either side, you get the check the state of the batteries via L1 to U1 and L2 to U2. Even the video shows it.
            The 2 black blocks exposed through the potting, are these the batteries?
            They appear to be covered in black PCV tape. You could try to peel the tape off to see what is under it – might say Energiser 9V.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Rob,

            From frank’s video, I showed 1 megohm on the yellow vs 100 kohm on portapow, vs offscale low (maybe 10K ohm) on the analog meter.

          • SG

            >> I believe the Orbo “charged” faster.

            To the contrary, the Orbo has been “charging” more slowly since adding the 470k resistor in parallel to the 1Mohm resistor.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Not certain, but I know that the voltage U2-L2 increased, which I believe is the voltage across the orbopak and ground. Still going up, while it appears to me that the U1U2 battery is slowing gaining at the expense of the U1L1 battery. I’m having some problem with the L1L2 measurement in the sheet — is it really zero or is that an artifact, i.e. why is U2L2 different than U2L1 is L1L2 is zero??

          • SG

            Fairly certain, though. The last two readings across U1/U2 are two of the lowest average per minute increases since readings began on 2/14/16.

            >> I’m having some problem with the L1L2 measurement in the sheet — is it really zero or is that an artifact.

            This needs to be definitively answered. We have a better digital multimeter on order. Frank should have it by this week.

            >> why is U2L2 different than U2L1 is L1L2 is zero

            Because of the voltage drop across the parallel resistors.

          • Anon2012_2014

            “>> why is U2L2 different than U2L1 is L1L2 is zero

            “Because of the voltage drop across the parallel resistors.”

            I think because of the voltage drop across the low impedance Portapow voltmeter. Anyway, to be continued tomorrow. I feel as if this project is getting somewhere using our combined efforts.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Where would you put the terminals L1-L2 then? If they were attached to the resistor as has been proposed below but there is no voltage between them (at 1 MOhm/16 microA one could expect 16V), a second resistor in parallel would have no effect.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think the 0 volts was a measurement error on the low impedance volt meter that comes with the Portapow. Portapow is not designed as a voltmeter, its designed as a power meter. As such, it doesn’t really need such a low impedance when we are measuring watts and milliwatts. I think his yellow portable multimeter is probably a higher impedance (10 megohms) like the radioshack job I have here at my home.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            But the other digital meter reads also 0 volts, according to the spreadsheet.

          • Anon2012_2014

            We have to ask Frank to verify after he gets up. It’s weird as U2L2 != U2L1.
            Essentially this equality should be true: V[U2L2]-V[U2L1] = V[L2L1]

            Calling it a night. TTYL… Space Invaders!

          • SG

            It would be weird for a closed circuit. But the conjecture (best as yet in my opinion) is that we have a faulty connection between U1 and the anode of the battery connected to L2.

          • SG

            Correct. And we have yet another (better) digital multimeter on order, which Frank should have by this week. We can then triple confirm the 0 V reading.

          • FC

            IMHO, we are all here to test Steorn’s claims. Therefore, we need to assume that all the information that they give us is correct, which not only is essential for the testing of their claims, but will also allow us to keep a common mindset so that we can understand each other’s comments.

            That means that, until Shaun rejects our circuit schematic (the one that some of us have developed independently overnight based on Shaun’s video) or Shaun provides a different one, we should assume that it is correct, like the rest of the information he has given us.

            If and when Steorn’s claims are proven wrong, then we can let our imaginations loose and start proposing all kinds of hypotheses about orbo and the ocube. In the meantime, I believe that we should stick to testing Shaun’s words and ideas. So I will refrain from discussing any hypothesis the goes counter to what Steorn is telling us, like the ones that permeate most, if not all, of your comments.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Please note that I am being gradually persuaded that this above schematic is wrong and I think that the OM schematic, showing the resistor between the batteries and a break between the top battery and the orbopacks is correct. Shaun seems to have confirmed this talking to Frank.

          • SG

            Yes, the evidence points this way. But I think the robust discussion helped all of us hone our thoughts.

  • LesioQ

    You should ask for a graph of the voltage at 1Meg resistor during whole replenish process. This will allow one to calculate energy drained from battery set.

  • LesioQ

    You should ask for a graph of the voltage at 1Meg resistor during whole replenish process. This will allow one to calculate energy drained from battery set.

  • Matt

    A simple question: it what time frame will customers get their OCube?

  • Matt

    A simple question: it what time frame will customers get their OCube?

  • georgehants

    I would ask when is the new complete and working unit going to arrive.
    All this work is being carried out on the almost irrelevant outer wiring that can have nothing to do with the devices ability to produce energy.
    Nobody is going to find out how it works if the power producing section is sealed and solid state as it , I think, would be.
    Only if it produces unaccountable energy is important.
    Either Mr Steorn can instantly explain what to do to check that output or lets have the new unit, quickly.

  • rich

    Q: Get him to confirm Rob King’s diagram is what you have. Or give you the correct one.
    Q: In his demo the 18V reference is applied across an orbo cell. How long would that orbo-cell take to charge up to 18V if left undisturbed? (or what’s the max it will charge to?)
    Q: He expects 14V across the 1M resistor. Is that 14uA constant over time and does this mean that the non-user replaceable batteries will become flat over time? If not, how does that current change over time? Extra marks for him drawing a graph.
    Q: How did they discover that the other 2 customers Li-ion batteries were over-voltage, if the whole thing is potted and in customer hands not Sterns hands?
    Q: What is the exact potting compound they used? (So we know how to remove it)

  • Stephen

    Maybe intersting to ask if the resin serves some essential purpose in the device such as thermal insulation or conduction, EM field insulation or conduction, to dampen or transmit acoustic vibrations, or to dampen or control other vibrations that may be essential to the device?Or perhaps simply to protect the device from external shocks?

  • Anon2012_2014

    Questions for Steorn:

    1) Can we have a full schematic of the device shipped to Frank?

    2) Can we have within the schematic any other capacitors or batteries inside the device, even if within the “Orbo Powercells”?

    The hypothesis, to be proven or disproven, is that each powercell acts as an energy harvester or provider via mechanism unknown. The power output of each powercell needs to be measured.

  • Private Citizen

    Please ask what test we can do to prove Orbo is being recharged by something other than a battery some skeptic might try to claim is hidden somewhere in the potting resin.

    And how long would that test take to be conclusive?

    • georgehants

      Not for Mr. Steorn to answer that question, only independent judges could put forward their conclusions.

      • Private Citizen

        disagree, he should be able to specify how to validate a product essentially shipped as a black box

        • georgehants

          What good would that do as he is biased by definition, it would be like trusting a banker to tell the Truth.

          • Private Citizen

            No, more like asking a fellow who claims he sold you a hidden energy harvester what scientific test openly can determine it actually harvests energy

          • georgehants

            Only independent researches could answer that question.
            It would be like expecting a banker to tell the Truth.
            Please try and follow a logical argument.

          • Private Citizen

            disagree, more like asking the banker to cooperate in an audit

          • georgehants

            Illogical

          • georgehants

            Why have you changed your reply without pointing that out?
            Why do you think ECW is testing the Orbo when according to you we should just ask Mr. Steorn if it works and leave it at that?
            Illogical

          • DrD

            Bankers/politicians and engineers are very different animals. Not that engineers are always trustworthy but — here’s hoping we will soon know the answer to this one

          • georgehants

            Agreed but I am sure you agree that one does not ask a person to evaluate their own performance one uses exterior criteria.

  • georgehants

    Going by their researches, how long would Mr. Steorn estimate that a working unit would go on producing the stated power output.

    • Private Citizen

      Not for Mr. Steorn to answer that question, only independent judges could put forward their conclusions.

      • georgehants

        You seem to want to show your trouble making side.
        Unlike your question mine is simply giving a figure to compare the time working of a new working unit with his estimate.
        I am not asking him to give a definition of the time needed to prove no inner workings, that on this page alone we will receive thousands of different estimates.

        • Private Citizen

          when faced with a contradiction, introduce a false distinction and continue

          • georgehants

            That may be your way.but that is not the scientific way.

          • Private Citizen

            was that a distinction?

          • georgehants

            You decide.

  • Private Citizen

    Also, please ask Sean to ship the made-in-Ireland O-Girl and the comely pub manager to the USA ASAP. No doubts about quality control there πŸ™‚

    • Roberto Siquieros

      I think they’ll be staying in western Europe thx v. much πŸ™‚

  • Adam

    Can you ask what the voltage output of each ‘orbo cell’ is and how all 8 are connected together. Series/ parallel?

    I’m sure there was a video that said they were 2.5v (which was noted as being strange) and 2 connected in series would make 5v.

    Can you ask what the ‘chip’ does. Is it a voltage regulator @ 5V

    Does it actually control anything?

  • Esko Lyytinen

    I would ask, if and with what terminals you can apply some actual load and measure power without the control electronics applied into the USB port. If it will become clear how to get the USB working as planned for a sustained time, then this question may not be needed.

    • According to our current understanding of the circuit, a load could be applied directly to the electrets across the upper test terminals, unless the charge controller is shorting across it’s input. Of course, if that’s the case, or if the resistor is loose and/or one PP3 battery is flat as has been suggested, then we are jiggered (as my father used to say). Out with the cutting tools.

      • SG

        I think your last sentence should read “. . .
        across L1-L2.” The resistor is across L1-L2 not U1-U2.

        • Yes, that would be the case if just the resistor is A/F, in which case a 1M resistor across L1-L2 would do it. However if one battery is flat, AND the resistor is open circuit (as possibly indicated by test readings to date) then the whole driver cct would need substituting across U1-U2 per my post. I should have covered all three possibilities – my bad.

          • SG

            Yes, it is possible. There is still some uncertainty in my mind about the 0.8 V and 0.87 V readings due to suspected limitations of the Portapow meter. It would be great if Frank could start taking the periodic readings using both of his digital meters.

          • Sanjeev

            Is that battery chargeable?

          • It is possible to at least partially recharge a standard PP3 alkaline battery, but it must be done through a current limiting diode or it could explode. No idea what the max. safe charging current is though.

          • Sanjeev

            Well then the option of charging it to check if the orbo kicks in is too risky.
            I have a feeling that more destruction will be needed to fix this thing.

          • Could be worth trying if a safe current is known. I suppose that (overcharging from a fresh battery – bang) would be a danger if a new battery was connected across L1-U1 or L2-U2 as I suggested, if an apparently dead battery is still in circuit. Perhaps I’d better put together a disclaimer denying all responsibility for the suggestion, asap. (actually I think someone else suggested it previously!)

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, it will be necessary to disconnect the old (faulty?) battery before you try to connect a new one. That’s why I said more destruction.

          • I suspect that the only way to do that is to dig ’em out of the goo and connect fresh batteries to the wires. Yet more destruction.

          • ecatworld

            It looks like the Skype meeting won’t be happening to day. I heard from Shaun who said today was the AGM and he wasn’t able to get to the office. He asked me to supply readings from the terminals which I did. Not sure about the reschedule yet, I suggested if not today, tomorrow.

          • Sanjeev

            I have a better suggestion. Connect a new assembly of 9V-1M-9V part of the circuit across U1U2. (The old one is across U1U2 too and will be effectively isolated because of 1M there).

          • Yes – as per my suggestion for case (b) in my post above.

          • Sanjeev

            Good. And as a step-1, a 1M should be connected across L1L2, just to check. If no change then go with whole assembly of “reference circuit”. Frank will need to spend some more on the batteries.

          • SG

            Agreed. Absent any further information from Shaun in the next day or so, this should be the course of action, in the stated order.

          • Sanjeev

            Well go ahead then. And yes, disclaimer – I’m not responsible if the whole thing explodes πŸ˜€ I’m just a commentator πŸ˜‰

          • ecatworld

            In an email exchange with Shaun just now he asked me to put 470k Ohm resistor across L1 and L2. I did and it still measured 0

          • Omega Z

            disclaimer: Not my fault, it was someone else’s Idea… πŸ™‚

          • You got it.

          • ecatworld
          • SG

            Certainly a change with U2/L2 and U1/L2 readings. Not a significant uptick yet with the U1/U2 reading. Will be interesting to see the next reading and also to know Shaun’s thoughts.

          • SG

            Several comments have been made by several contributors here that feel the internal impedance of the Portapow meter is likely too low to get an accurate reading across a large resistor (e.g., 1 mohm or 470 kohm)–thus the zero potential that has been consistently measured across L1/L2. One person speculated that the Portapow has an internal impedance of no more than 100 kohm. Shaun is giving us feedback based on the reading of 0 V. I think we need to resolve this ambiguity by acquiring a standard Radio Shack quality multimeter with a high internal impedance. I for one am willing to contribute to that purchase. I’m sure others here would be willing to do the same if it meant more confidence in the measured values.

          • MWerner

            Get a Fluke. Costs more, but a very high quality product.

          • Blue Enmergy

            I’m not saying it isn’t be worth waiting until Steorn chips in but, if the schematic is correct, then adding a megaohm resister in series with your additional 18 volts would make it seem safe to me.

          • Should be – but I definitely didn’t suggest it first πŸ™‚

          • OM
  • Esko Lyytinen

    I would ask, if and with what terminals you can apply some actual load and measure power without the control electronics applied into the USB port. If it will become clear how to get the USB working as planned for a sustained time, then this question may not be needed.

    • According to our current understanding of the circuit, a load could be applied directly to the electrets by connecting it across the upper test terminals U1-U2 on Rob’s diagram, unless (a) the charge controller is shorting/LR across it’s input, (b) the 1M resistor is loose and/or (c) one or both PP3 batteries are flat (L1-U1 or L2-U2 low volts).

      If its (a) we are jiggered (as my father used to say). Out with the cutting tools.

      If it’s (c), we can bodge in our own PP3 across L1-U1 or L2-U2, as applicable, unless a faulty resistor (b) is the cause, in which case we would have to replicate the complete driver circuit (2x PP3 and 1M resistor in series) across U1-U2.

      • SG

        I think your last sentence should read “. . .
        across L1-L2.” The resistor is across (or should be across) L1-L2 not U1-U2.

        • Yes, that would be the case if just the resistor is A/F, in which case a 1M resistor across L1-L2 would do it. However if the resistor is open circuit, AND one battery is flat or disconnected (as possibly indicated by test readings to date) then the whole driver cct would need substituting across U1-U2 per my post. I should have covered all three non-terminal possibilities – my bad.

          • SG

            Yes, it is possible. There is still some uncertainty in my mind about the 0.8 V and 0.87 V readings due to suspected limitations of the Portapow meter. It would be great if Frank could start taking the periodic readings using both of his digital meters.

          • Sanjeev

            Is that battery chargeable?

          • It is possible to at least partially recharge a standard PP3 alkaline battery, but it must be done through a current limiting diode or it could explode. No idea what the max. safe charging current is though. The potting probably reduces this due to inability to shed heat or vent gases as easily as in air.

          • Sanjeev

            Well then the option of charging it to check if the orbo kicks in is too risky.
            I have a feeling that more destruction will be needed to fix this thing.

          • Could still be worth trying if a safe current is known. I suppose that (unsafe charge rate = bang) would be a danger if a new battery was connected across L1-U1 or L2-U2 as I suggested, if an apparently dead battery is still in circuit. Perhaps I’d better put together a disclaimer denying all responsibility for the suggestion, asap. (actually I think someone else suggested it previously!)

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, it will be necessary to disconnect the old (faulty?) battery before you try to connect a new one. That’s why I said more destruction.

          • I suspect that the only way to do that is to dig ’em out of the goo and connect fresh batteries to the wires. Yet more destruction.

          • Sanjeev

            I have a better suggestion. Connect a new assembly of 9V-1M-9V part of the circuit across U1U2. (The old one is across U1U2 too and will be effectively isolated because of 1M there).

          • Yes – as per my suggestion for case (b) in my post above.

          • Sanjeev

            Good. And as a step-1, a 1M should be connected across L1L2, just to check. If no change then go with whole assembly of “reference circuit”. Frank will need to spend some more on the batteries.

          • SG

            Agreed. Absent any further information from Shaun in the next day or so, this should be the course of action, in the stated order.

          • Sanjeev

            Well go ahead then. And yes, disclaimer – I’m not responsible if the whole thing explodes πŸ˜€ I’m just a commentator πŸ˜‰

          • Omega Z

            disclaimer: Not my fault, it was someone else’s Idea… πŸ™‚

          • You got it.

          • Blue Enmergy

            I’m not saying it isn’t be worth waiting until Steorn chips in but, if the schematic is correct, then adding a megaohm resister in series with your additional 18 volts would make it seem safe to me.

          • Should be – but I definitely didn’t suggest it first πŸ™‚

  • BillH

    Questions:-

    1) Why would you think 2 9V PP3 batteries were suitable to provide a reference voltage?
    2) What is the reference voltage and it’s tolerance? and what happens when it goes outside of it’s specification?
    3) Does the use of the resin make this product essentially unserviceable? If it doesn’t work you just have to throw it away?
    4) What can be measured from the test points?
    5) Was any testing on the units done in the 6 weeks prior to dispatch?
    6) Does the complete design include the 2 PP3’s, the 8 Orbo cells and a Lithium battery,
    if so couldn’t the orbo cells just be 8 thermocouples wired in series and a lithium powerbank?
    7) What measures are you putting in place to insure Quality Control?

  • BillH

    Questions:-

    1) Why would you think 2 9V PP3 batteries were suitable to provide a reference voltage?
    2) What is the reference voltage and it’s tolerance? and what happens when it goes outside of it’s specification?
    3) Does the use of the resin make this product essentially unserviceable? If it doesn’t work you just have to throw it away?
    4) What can be measured from the test points?
    5) Was any testing on the units done in the 6 weeks prior to dispatch?
    6) Does the complete design include the 2 PP3’s, the 8 Orbo cells and a Lithium battery,
    if so couldn’t the orbo cells just be 8 thermocouples wired in series and a lithium powerbank?
    7) What measures are you putting in place to insure Quality Control?

  • E-gatto

    Where is the spot where the missing Li-Ion battery fits in?

  • FC

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that an average smartphone recharge requires in the order of 36,000 J (10 Wh, or 3,000 mAh at 3.6 V, approximately).

    If each orbo power cell has a total capacity of 1,500 J (as some commenters are already assuming here), then the whole powerpack (8 cells) can only store 12,000 J, plus an additional 62.5 J from the 5F cap at 5 V. This capacity would be insufficient for a full smartphone recharge.

    Therefore, either the OCube needs a Li-ion battery to be fully functional or what Shaun meant in the video when he spoke about the 1,500 J charge was that a voltage drop in an orbo power cell from a little over 5 V to 2.9 V (the USB cutoff voltage) is equivalent to 1,500 J, but its total capacity is higher.

    Can Shaun please clarify this issue?

  • FC

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that an average smartphone recharge requires in the order of 36,000 J (10 Wh, or 3,000 mAh at 3.6 V, approximately).

    If each orbo power cell has a total capacity of 1,500 J (as some commenters are already assuming here), then the whole powerpack (8 cells) can only store 12,000 J, plus an additional 62.5 J from the 5F cap at 5 V. This capacity would be insufficient for a full smartphone recharge.

    Therefore, either the OCube needs a Li-ion battery to be fully functional or what Shaun meant in the video when he spoke about the 1,500 J charge was that a voltage drop in an orbo power cell from a little over 5 V to 2.9 V (the USB cutoff voltage) is equivalent to 1,500 J, but its total capacity is higher.

    Can Shaun please clarify this issue?

  • This seems like a pretty significant change to the oCube, given that this error exists that does not seem to have been caught in the lab. I think that a lot of people would be interested in why this error was not caught in the lab.

    I have a few other questions, but they are not technical in nature. Maybe for another Skype session…

    • Sanjeev

      Blame the resin.
      After all design decisions were made and testing done, they added that in 11th hour. Now its un-testable and non-repairable.

  • SG

    First and foremost, what reasons does Shaun have for the voltage reading across L1 / L2 being 0 V ? Can it be repaired by placing a 1 Mohm resistor across L1 / L2 ourselves ?

  • Matt

    It has been mentioned before a couple of times, I think it’s an important question. Is the OCube a throw away product? The potting makes it totally unrepairable. The alkaline batteries won’t last very long. How long is it supposed to work at all and what happens if it fails?

    • SquareTwoDevelopment

      If the cost of the components is very much less than the cost of the case – as seems likely – that doesn’t seem much of an issue. Discard the contents entirely and refill.

  • Sanjeev

    Blame the resin.
    After all design decisions were made and testing done, they added that in 11th hour. Now its un-testable and non-repairable.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Frank, could you carefully ask them if they were willing to provide a single Orbo cell for testing? You could commit yourself not to disassemble it etc. Funding from ECW readers should be no problem if required, I think.

    • Dieter_G

      good Idea

      • OM

        I’m sorry, something wrong with image hosting. Please, remove my previous post.

        http://i.imgur.com/fO7IFw6.jpg?1

        • SG

          Yes, just checked, and I think you are correct. Frank’s latest readings with the digital multimeter support this theory.

          • FC

            Then, what we would need to do is plug a 9V battery across L2-U1. Don’t you think?

          • SG

            Yes, carefully making sure polarity is lined up correctly. Would be nice to get thoughts from Shaun before trying it. πŸ™‚

          • FC

            Exactly. πŸ™‚

          • FC

            For safety and double-checking purposes, before we do that, we could also plug a (high resistance) resistor across L2-U1.

        • Anon2012_2014

          OM, you might be right, but I think the batteries are in series with the resister between the anode of the bottom battery and the negative input into the Orbopak. I think the upper battery is between U1 and U2 is nearly dead — down to 0.8 volts. It appears to be coming back to life on Frank’s spreadsheet. The thing to do is to find a way to replace it or to charge it up again with another battery between U1 and U2. If we could only cut the wire and put a replacement in.

          But what we really want to do is to extract a single orbopak for benchmarking.

          • SG

            OM, FC, and I are in agreement that the 9V battery should be placed between U1 and L2. The U1/U2 was accidentally shorted by Frank at one point, which quickly discharged to 0.01 V (we think). It did not behave like a conventional battery.

    • Worth a try.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Frank, could you carefully ask them if they were willing to provide a single Orbo cell for testing? You could commit yourself not to disassemble it etc. Funding from ECW readers should be no problem if required, I think.

    • Dieter_G

      good Idea

    • Worth a try.

  • OM

    Is there a charging controller between the 5F capacitor and the Orbo power pack?
    Or they are connected directly to each other?

  • OM

    Is there a charging controller between the 5F capacitor and the Orbo power pack?
    Or they are connected directly to each other?

  • SG

    I suggest sharing the Ocube Voltage readings table (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0) with Shaun and ask him to explain:
    1) The 0 V reading across L1/L2
    2) The ~ 0.8 V reading across U1/L2
    3) The ~ 0.87 V reading across U2/L2

  • SG

    I suggest sharing the Ocube Voltage readings table (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0) with Shaun and ask him to explain:
    1) The 0 V reading across L1/L2
    2) The ~ 0.8 V reading across U1/L2
    3) The ~ 0.87 V reading across U2/L2

  • Frank Acland

    It looks like the Skype meeting won’t be happening to day. I heard from Shaun who said today was the AGM and he wasn’t able to get to the office. He asked me to supply readings from the terminals which I did. Not sure about the reschedule yet, I suggested if not today, tomorrow.

  • FC

    This may not be directly related with the tests on course. But going back to devising a way to do without the two 9V batteries in future products, why don’t Steorn design a specialized Orbo cell that outputs a high voltage with low power to provide the “regular” cells in the power pack with the desired electric field, or reference voltage?

    In fact, it may even be possible to introduce this concept into the very architecture of every Orbo cell, making it unnecessary to provide such “external” electric field anymore.

    • DrD

      I can think of a reason but they might not admit it:— expediency. Meaning it’s cheaper, easier and lower risk (to them) and if the guarantee is only a year then they gain nothing for their extra design and development cost.

      • FC

        Sure. That would be a short term solution. But in the long run, if they really want to power portable elctronics, they need to think of a more permanent and less bulky solution.

  • Frank Acland

    In an email exchange with Shaun just now he asked me to put 470k Ohm resistor across L1 and L2. I did and it still measured 0

  • ecatworld

    He’s now asked me to leave the resistor over L1 and L2 for a couple of hours and then check voltage.

    • SG

      Might be worth double checking with both digital meters as well.

    • If L1-U1 and L2-U2 are both 0 volts then the batteries are either dead or disconnected. I am guessing that Shaun is thinking they may be nearly dead, but that putting a lower resistance across L1-L2 may allow just enough current flow to kick start the electrets.

      Does he want you to check voltage at L1-L2, or U1-U2 (or both)?

  • Frank Acland

    He’s now asked me to leave the resistor over L1 and L2 for a couple of hours and then check voltage.

    • SG

      Might be worth double checking with both digital meters as well.

    • If L1-U1 is close to 0 volts then one battery is either dead or disconnected, and there will be no bias voltage. I am guessing that Shaun is hoping the small voltage measured means thatit may only be ‘nearly dead’ (as opposed to the low reading just representing flow through the electrets), but that putting a lower resistance across L1-L2 may allow just enough current flow to kick start the electrets. It would also cover the possibility that the 1M resistor is A/F or detached at one end, but that wouldn’t explain the lack of voltage across L1-U1 and L2-U2. A forlorn hope I fear – but we’ll see.

      Does he want you to check voltage at L1-L2, or U1-U2 (or both)?

  • ecatworld

    He wrote:

    basically it seems that there are two potential problems:

    The first is that the strong voltage is not being applied across the cells (in which case we would see a voltage on test point 2)

    The consequence of this is that the dipoles in the cells are getting dealigned with every discharge and hence the recharge is to a lower level every time).

    The second problem (or potentIal problem) is that I’m normal use the cells would never discharge below 2.9 volts – that’s the cut off voltage of the USB interface. It must have been shorted while taking the back off. It’s probably not a problem, since I have done this myself many times.

    Anyway let’s see if we can get the domains aligned first. I hold out little hope of we are measuring zero across the R you just put in.

    If the voltage is not rising anymore we have one final option with that cube which is to try and put a strong v across the cells from outside the cube. My concern in doing this is that it’s unclear as to why the current voltage source is measuring zero, and that implies that the circuit somehow is not as it was, and injecting a voltage across a suspect circuit would always be a last resort!

    Let’s see if v rises!

    • SG

      You should maybe share with him our readings across U1/U2 over the past couple of days, which do show v rising gradually. But perhaps not rising nearly fast enough or as expected.

      • ecatworld

        Yes, I did, He said he’d look at the spreadsheet

        • SG

          So maybe when he said “Let’s see if v rises!” he means let’s see if the rate of increase of v rises…

          • ecatworld

            Ok, I put a fresh battery in my digital multimeter and included a new set of readings on the spreadsheet — quite a discrepancy.

            https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0

          • SG

            Do you happen to know the internal impedance of your digital multimeter? Can you perhaps post the make/model? (Maybe you did already but can’t seem to find that at the moment.)

          • ecatworld

            No I’m sorry to say there is no make nor model listed, nor impedence. It does not seem to be terribly high end equipment.

          • SG

            Here is one in stock at Radio Shack that can measure up to 40 Mohm.

            https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-29-range-digital-multimeter?variant=5717083781

            I’d like to cover the cost of it. If you are willing to go pick it up, I’ll paypal the total cost of it to you. You are already giving enough to this project with your time.

          • ecatworld

            Thanks SG, can you email me so we can discuss?

          • SG

            Just sent you one (actually two) emails.

          • Pweet

            Careful,, it says it ‘measures’ up to 40 megohms. i.e when measuring ohms it can measure up to 40 megohm resistors, which is unusual. That says nothing about the input impedance when measuring in the DC voltage range.
            The two are completely different.
            I would add though, most digital voltmeters these days have very high input impedances when measuring voltage because the inputs are buffered by very cheap but effective FET buffering circuits.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Frank,

            I don’t think it was the battery in the digital MM. It looks of decent quality regardless. I think that the voltage on U2-L1 and U2-L2 have been quickly jumping higher since you put the 470k resistor across L1-L2.

            My hypothesis is that the 9V batteries are U1-L1 and U2-L1, and that they are discharging into whatever is U1-L2 and U1-L2. My working hypothesis is that the L1 circuit is the input to the orbo powerpacks, and that the L2 circuits is the output across the 5F cap or the Li-I battery that should have been installed. I think we are massively discharging U1-l1 battery which is now down to 8.8V, while somehow more slowly discharging U2-L1.

            Finally, I think the U1 battery feeds the U1 powerpack, and the U2 feeds the L2. That is because the voltage changes before going to the 470k resistor are roughly proportional (at least right direction), i.e. a loss in U1L1 resulted i a loss on U1L2.

            This whole thing is like an IQ test puzzle. We need the schematic.

          • SG

            While I like the creativity of your theory, I think OM’s is correct. Take Frank’s latest readings and run Kirchhoff for each terminal combination. Remember R is now R=1/(1/470+1/1000) due to the two resistors in parallel. I think OM has identified the break in the circuit.

            I do agree, however, that confirmation of the schematic is needed.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think there are still too many degrees of freedom to get a solution from a Kirchoff analysis. I say why not run a Kirchoff, but there are a lot of hidden active elements in the machine.

          • SG

            Agreed that we’re running a little blind here, but we have some fairly good known data points to work from. Enough to observe that if the circuit is as expressed by Steorn in the latest video, then the break in Frank’s Ocube is likely where OM identified it to be. If the circuit is different than expressed by Steorn in the latest video, then all bets are off.

        • FC

          Frank, I don’t know if anyone agrees that the 470 Ohm resistor across L1-L2 has served its purpose.

          What I would now suggest is placing that resistor across U1-L2. And if the voltage readings across L1-L2 immediately gives a reading, then we would have a closed circuit again and the orbo power pack (i.e. the voltage across U1-U2) should start charging a lot quicker.

          • SG

            I’m not sure I agree with this approach because the reference voltage would be half of the 18 V apparently needed to sufficiently align the dipoles in the Orbo cells to boost the rate of U1-U2 increases. If we suspect OM is correct in his identification of where the break is (which I happen to believe he is correct), I say we just go ahead and connect a 9V battery (carefully paying attention to polarity) across U1/L2. We should probably get Shaun’s thoughts before trying it.

          • FC

            I agree that your suggestion will work. But I think that my approach is safer, as it would confirm our assumptions first. Then, we can plug the battery.

          • ecatworld

            Shaun’s warning was: “and injecting a voltage across a suspect circuit would always be a last resort!” I hope it works, but I suppose we could end up with a brick.

          • FC

            That’s why the resistor approach is the safest, because it would inject a lower voltage with very little power to damage anything.

            But Shaun knows his device better than anybody else.

          • ecatworld

            I have sent OM’s diagram to Shaun for his opinion. I have the supplies ready to do the battery test, but would prefer to get his okay first.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think the battery between U1 and U2 is simply discharged. You can probably put a fresh 9V batteries in parallel across U1U2 without too much harm or risk. Best would be to cut the wire if we are lucky and that is the red wire and simply hook a new one between U1 and U2, if Shaun can confirm we are doing this right.

            We need to benchmark the cells, and if Shaun hasn’t hidden anything from us in his video demo (can’t prove, only can hope), it might actually be a good harvester able to put 1500 joules into an orbo pack overnight; i.e. 50 mW per Orbopack or 400 mW for the 8 packs in the cube. It would be useful and up to Steorn’s spec. Like to know how it works if that is the case, but at least we would know that it does work if we can rule out a chemical battery hidden in the orbopak.

          • FC

            Sorry, I meant 470 kohm.

          • Anon2012_2014

            The 470k resistor just increases the “field” current/voltage across orbo by by about 3x in an attempt to get it working. I don’t know where the extra energy came from in Shaun’s video, but it looks to me to be about 750 joules (2.5 watts for 5 minutes), and the batteries can’t be putting out more than 320 uWatts = 0.1 joules over that 5 minute period. So the energy is coming from somewhere else. Part of it is the capacitor in the Orbo powerpak, but at a starting voltage of 5 volts to get 750 joules would take 60F. That’s a lot of capacitor. Possible. I believe that our Orbo cube has 6 of them in there. But it would take forever to recharge against a 18 volt battery on a 1 Megohm resistor: about 1 month. So That can’t really be it. We have to prove that the orbo packs don’t have a big battery in them and observe its actual charging time.

            A good thing, if Shaun can confirm the schematic, is that the device does not discharge when the USB is not activated, allowing us to do some better energy measurements IF we can confirm the schematic.

          • SG

            The Ocube is said to have x8 Orbo cells.

            >> We have to prove that the orbo packs don’t have a big battery in them and observe its actual charging time.

            Yes, this is key to furthering our understanding.

          • Anon2012_2014

            OK, will revise above post with the 8 cells.

          • FC

            I’m sorry for being so blunt, Anon, but I think we live in different realities.

            If the field across the orbo power pack had increased x3 (and I don’t know where you get this from) we surely would have seen a higher charge rate (the U1-U2 readings in Frank’s spreadsheet).

            And if you don’t know where the extra energy comes from in Shaun’s video, that means that you haven’t understood the video at all. Please watch it again with open ears and an open mind.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Hi FC,

            Be blunt, it is ok for me. I prefer polite rational discourse however.

            To answer you questions:

            1) I think the field across the orbopaks is U2-L2. I think this was measured with a volt meter that acts like a 5K resistor and shunted most of the voltage to ground during measurement. So I think the 3X increase across the orbo is a measurement artifact, and in fact it was always near 7V after putting in the 470K resistor in parallel with the 1Mohm. The 2.3 that was measured I believe was a measurement artifact of the poor circuitry in the Portapow power meter that is NOT really a volt meter, but a power meter and included a voltage measurement as an afterthought.

            2) U1-U2 I believe is the voltage across one of the 9V batteries that I believe has been badly damaged (discharged) down to 0.64 volts. I believe it is SLOWLY recharging and now is at 0.84 volts.

            3) I am a person who believes in scientific method and I do not know where the energy comes from until proven by the scientific method. I hypothesize that the energy comes from the orbopaks, but I haven’t proven it yet.

    • Sanjeev

      If you check the brainstorming we did below, it seems connecting a new 9V-1M-9V branch across U1U2 is mostly safe.
      If the 1M is disconnected the old branch is totally isolated and if one of the battery is dead, its almost isolated because 1M is a very high value.
      If someone can find a risk in this or has a better idea, please share.

      • SG

        And I think Shaun is alluding to trying this as a “last resort.” He is taking some baby steps up to that, which I think is prudent.

        • Sanjeev

          Lets see if the rate of charging rises in next few hours. Currently its about 6.4mV per hour.

    • If the electrets are losing dipole alignment then that is not reversible, except by taking out the stacks and repeating the electrostatic alignment part of the manufacturing process (obviously impractical).

      As far as the ‘shorting’ theory goes, that could take place if a low resistance meter was repeatedly put across U1-U2, but not during the case opening process as suggested (all other possible contacts are potted or isolated). It’s far more likely that the charge controller has gone short circuit across the input. The USB card is isolated from the electrets by the charge controller, and in any case the blue light indicates that it is working.

      Both possibilities are therefore terminal.

      • SG

        If the charge controller has short circuited (no evidence for this yet), then the voltage applied to the cap would be on the order of 1.6 V (the natural output voltage of the Orbo power pack). This doesn’t comport with our earlier tests where > 2.9 V were being passed through the USB board (the LEDs did light up, even if it was just for mere seconds). I don’t think the charge controller is damaged. I think it is either i) a faulty connection between the Orbo power pack and a terminal of one of the batteries, ii) a faulty connection between a terminal of one of the batteries and an exposed terminal, or iii) a faulty connection between a terminal of one of the batteries and the 1 Mohm resistor.

        • Hopefully so – then we can bodge around those problems with a few loose batteries and resistors.

        • DrD

          If the block diagrams are correct (e.g. Rob Kings) then locating the problem shouldn’t be that difficult unless it’s not just a single fault.

  • Frank Acland

    He wrote:

    basically it seems that there are two potential problems:

    The first is that the strong voltage is not being applied across the cells (in which case we would see a voltage on test point 2)

    The consequence of this is that the dipoles in the cells are getting dealigned with every discharge and hence the recharge is to a lower level every time).

    The second problem (or potentIal problem) is that I’m normal use the cells would never discharge below 2.9 volts – that’s the cut off voltage of the USB interface. It must have been shorted while taking the back off. It’s probably not a problem, since I have done this myself many times.

    Anyway let’s see if we can get the domains aligned first. I hold out little hope of we are measuring zero across the R you just put in.

    If the voltage is not rising anymore we have one final option with that cube which is to try and put a strong v across the cells from outside the cube. My concern in doing this is that it’s unclear as to why the current voltage source is measuring zero, and that implies that the circuit somehow is not as it was, and injecting a voltage across a suspect circuit would always be a last resort!

    Let’s see if v rises!

    • SG

      You should maybe share with him our readings across U1/U2 over the past couple of days, which do show v rising gradually. But perhaps not rising nearly fast enough or as expected.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes, I did, He said he’d look at the spreadsheet

        • SG

          So maybe when he said “Let’s see if v rises!” he means let’s see if the rate of increase of v rises…

    • Sanjeev

      If you check the brainstorming we did below, it seems connecting a new 9V-1M-9V branch across U1U2 is mostly safe.
      If the 1M is disconnected the old branch is totally isolated and if one of the battery is dead, its almost isolated because 1M is a very high value.
      If someone can find a risk in this or has a better idea, please share.

      • SG

        And I think Shaun is alluding to trying this as a “last resort.” He is taking some baby steps up to that, which I think is prudent.

        It might make sense to source a couple of LI 9V batteries in the meanwhile so that we have this last resort solution waiting in the wings to try.

        • Sanjeev

          Lets see if the rate of charging rises in next few hours. Currently its about 6.4mV per hour.

    • If the electrets are losing dipole alignment (polarisation) then that is probably not reversible, except by taking out the stacks and repeating the electrostatic alignment part of the manufacturing process (obviously impractical).

      As far as the ‘shorting’ theory goes (blown charge controller) that could take place if a low resistance meter was repeatedly put across U1-U2, but was unlikely during the case opening process as suggested because the test terminals are recessed and all other possible contact points are potted or isolated. The USB card is isolated from the electrets by the charge controller, and in any case the blue light indicates that it is working.

      Both possibilities would therefore be terminal.

      • SG

        If the charge controller has short circuited (no evidence for this yet), then the voltage applied to the cap would be on the order of 1.6 V (the natural output voltage of the Orbo power pack). This doesn’t comport with our earlier tests where > 2.9 V were being passed through the USB board (the LEDs did light up, even if it was just for mere seconds). I don’t think the charge controller is damaged. I think it is either i) a faulty connection between the Orbo power pack and a terminal of one of the batteries, ii) a faulty connection between a terminal of one of the batteries and an exposed terminal, or iii) a faulty connection between a terminal of one of the batteries and the 1 Mohm resistor.

        • Hopefully so – then we can bodge around those problems with a few loose batteries and resistors.

        • DrD

          If the block diagrams are correct (e.g. Rob Kings) then locating the problem shouldn’t be that difficult unless it’s not just a single fault.

  • OM

    U2-L1 is the first 9V battery.
    U1-L2 – the second one, but may be through the charging controller.
    We have 0.8V on U1-L2, so, the second 9V battery is dead or the charging controller is not functioning properly.

    We need an exact schematic.

  • OM

    We can apply external 9V to U1-L2.

    • FC

      Agreed.
      Contrats, you figured it out. (Provided we are using the right diagram).

  • OM

    We have 0V on L1-L2.
    It is completely useless to put a resistor across L1-L2.

  • Frank Acland
    • SG

      Certainly a change with U2/L2 and U1/L2 readings. Not a significant uptick yet with the U1/U2 reading. Will be interesting to see the next reading and also to know Shaun’s thoughts.

      • OM

        This is because we measure 9V through 320K resistor ( R=1/(1/470+1/1000) ) instead of 1M.

    • SG

      Several comments have been made by several contributors here that feel the internal impedance of the Portapow meter is likely too low to get an accurate reading across a large resistor (e.g., 1 mohm or 470 kohm)–thus the zero potential that has been consistently measured across L1/L2. One person speculated that the Portapow has an internal impedance of no more than 100 kohm. Shaun is giving us feedback based on the reading of 0 V. I think we need to resolve this ambiguity by acquiring a standard Radio Shack quality multimeter with a high internal impedance. I for one am willing to contribute to that purchase. I’m sure others here would be willing to do the same if it meant more confidence in the measured values.

      • MWerner

        Get a Fluke. Costs more, but a very high quality product.

  • OM
  • OM

    I’m sorry, something wrong with image hosting. Please, remove my previous post.

    http://i.imgur.com/fO7IFw6.jpg?1

    • SG

      Yes, just checked, and I think you are correct. Frank’s latest readings with the digital multimeter support this theory.

      • FC

        Then, what we would need to do is plug a 9V battery across L2-U1. Don’t you think?

        • SG

          Yes, carefully making sure polarity is lined up correctly. Would be nice to get thoughts from Shaun before trying it. πŸ™‚

          • FC

            Exactly. πŸ™‚

          • FC

            For safety and double-checking purposes, before we do that, we could also plug a (high resistance) resistor across L2-U1.

    • Anon2012_2014

      OM, you might be right, but I think the batteries are in series with the resister between the anode of the bottom battery and the negative input into the Orbopak. I think the upper battery is between U1 and U2 is nearly dead — down to 0.8 volts. It appears to be coming back to life on Frank’s spreadsheet. The thing to do is to find a way to replace it or to charge it up again with another battery between U1 and U2. If we could only cut the wire and put a replacement in.

      But what we really want to do is to extract a single orbopak for benchmarking.

      • SG

        OM, FC, and I are in agreement that the 9V battery should be placed between U1 and L2. The U1/U2 was accidentally shorted by Frank at one point, which quickly discharged to 0.01 V (we think). It did not behave like a conventional battery.

  • Frank Acland

    Ok, I put a fresh battery in my digital multimeter and included a new set of readings on the spreadsheet — quite a discrepancy.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0

    • SG

      Do you happen to know the internal impedance of your digital multimeter? Can you perhaps post the make/model? (Maybe you did already but can’t seem to find that at the moment.)

      • Frank Acland

        No I’m sorry to say there is no make nor model listed, nor impedence. It does not seem to be terribly high end equipment.

        • SG

          Here is one in stock at Radio Shack that can measure up to 40 Mohm.

          https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-29-range-digital-multimeter?variant=5717083781

          I’d like to cover the cost of it. If you are willing to go pick it up, I’ll paypal the total cost of it to you. You are already giving enough to this project with your time.

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks SG, can you email me so we can discuss?

          • SG

            Just sent you one (actually two) emails.

          • Pweet

            Careful,, it says it ‘measures’ up to 40 megohms. i.e when measuring ohms it can measure up to 40 megohm resistors, which is unusual. That says nothing about the input impedance when measuring in the DC voltage range.
            The two are completely different.
            I would add though, most digital voltmeters these days have very high input impedances when measuring voltage because the inputs are buffered by very cheap but effective FET buffering circuits.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Frank,

      I don’t think it was the battery in the yellow digital MM. It looks of decent quality regardless. I think portapow’s voltmeter is an afterthought and has low impedance. I think that the voltage on U2-L1 and U2-L2 have been quickly jumping higher since you put the 470k resistor across L1-L2.

      My hypothesis is that the 9V batteries are U1-L1 and U2-L1, and that they are discharging into whatever is U1-L2 and U2-L2. My working hypothesis is that the L1 circuit is the input to the orbo powerpacks, and that the L2 circuits is the output across the 5F cap or the Li-I battery that should have been installed. I think we are massively discharging U1-l1 battery which is now down to 8.8V, while somehow more slowly discharging U2-L1.

      Finally, I think the U1 battery feeds the U1 powerpack, and the U2 feeds the L2. That is because the voltage changes before going to the 470k resistor are roughly proportional (at least right direction), i.e. a loss in U1L1 resulted i a loss on U1L2.

      This whole thing is like an IQ test puzzle. We need the schematic.
      [EDIT — I no longer think this is the schematic — see my crude character drawing from space invaders above.]

      • SG

        While I like the creativity of your theory, I think OM’s is correct. Take Frank’s latest readings and run Kirchhoff for each terminal combination. Remember R is now R=1/(1/470+1/1000) due to the two resistors in parallel. I think OM has identified the break in the circuit.

        I do agree, however, that confirmation of the schematic is needed.

        • Anon2012_2014

          I think there are still too many degrees of freedom to get a solution from a Kirchoff analysis. I say why not run a Kirchoff, but there are a lot of hidden active elements in the machine.

          • SG

            Agreed that we’re running a little blind here, but we have some fairly good known data points to work from. Enough to observe that if the circuit is as expressed by Steorn in the latest video, then the break in Frank’s Ocube is likely where OM identified it to be. If the circuit is different than expressed by Steorn in the latest video (aside from the 5 F cap), then all bets are off.

  • Hhiram

    Is there a formal testing plan with a decision tree yet?

    At some point it must become clear that the O-Cube Frank received is simply broken. If that’s the case, there is really very little use in testing it further. What DOES make sense is to try to extract the actual Orbo power-generating units from the potting resin and test them separately from the other components.

    Right? Because nobody really cares whether this thing actually works as a phone charger. What we really care about is if the actual Orbo units are indeed magical energy-producing gizmos. Testing a broken phone charger isn’t going to get us any closer to answering that…

    • ecatworld

      I think the last resort may be to apply the voltage from an external source.

      • FC

        Agreed.

      • Sanjeev

        And in case that also fails, one of the eight orbo cells must be either accessed or removed out of the resin somehow. I don’t think we should simply throw away the monkey before we do a postmortem.

    • Frank, if you could ask how a battery would possibly function with a unit that is so hard to open. If there is a battery that never needs replacing, it would be a greater invention than the O-cube.

      • Anon2012_2014

        I think that the battery between U2 and U2, I call it “Bat1” has drained.

        • SG

          Please clarify… between U2 and U2?

          • Anon2012_2014

            See my “space invaders” ugly schematic. BAT1 is between measurement lugs U1 and U2. I think that is one of the 2 9V batteries in series and it is only putting out 0.81V as we speak. I think it has been ruined a long time ago. Maybe from over charging, maybe from over discharge. Who knows. Never liked 9V batteries.

          • SG

            Oh, I see, you meant between U1/U2 not U2/U2. I’m fairly certain this is across the Orbo power pack. But reasonable minds can differ.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Right, fixing typo above.

    • Anon2012_2014

      +1 +1 +1

      I am thinking the same. Just get one orbo power cell out of the mess. We don’t need to chip the whole cell out, just expose one set of electrodes. I am going to go back to Shaun’s video to see what they looked like

    • SG

      I think the idea is that if we can fix the broken phone charger, then there are some meaningful tests that can be performed before resorting to a tear down. For example, we know the weight and dimensions of the Ocube and therefore can determine how much energy could possibly be stored in such a unit using conventional storage technologies. Then, by measuring output power over a period of time, we can quite easily determine whether the Ocube defies conventional storage technologies. This can all be done (maybe) without risking further damage to the unit.

      On the other hand, I’ll argue against what I just wrote by conceding that Frank has been promised another Ocube, and so maybe it does make sense to gut this one. But I’d be inclined to wait until Frank actually has the second Ocube in-hand.

    • Having just rejoined the conversation I left 10 hours ago, from what I can see, we are not too far from the point where that mat be the best course,barring a few more obvious test strategies to include direct injection of power.

      If it proves possible to extract the electret stacks or at least reach their wiring, then we can obviously perform some simple direct tests without any doubts about bad connections and faulty components.

      It may require the skills of a brain surgeon though, I think to free the electrets of resin without damage, and there is still the possibility that the electret dielectric material itself may have depolarised, leaving just some home-made capacitors.

      • FC

        Right. Or simply connecting a 9V battery across U1-L2, to bypass and replace the one battery that isn’t working (probably because of a faulty connector).

        But before we do that, I insist that we remove the 470k resistor from its current location (across L1-L2) and connect it across U1-L2 just to test with a lower voltage and power that the circuit gets closed. We don’t lose anything by doing that and, if it works (and L1-L2 starts giving a reading), we will be much surer that nothing blows up when we connect the battery (or batteries).

        • There would be some small risk attached to applying 9V across a depleted battery (overheating, gas build-up in the cell). I would go straight for replacing the whole chain across U1-U2 as we would be assured that the chain is complete and working, and the 1M resistor would provide protection against internal shorts or overloads.

          I don’t think there is anything to lose at this point, even if Shaun doesn’t confirm our ‘working’ circuit.

          • FC

            Do you think that a depleted battery would short the circuit? I’m not so sure. For that to happen, the battery would have to be severely damaged. I’m more inclined to think that the problem is in the connections of the battery. But we’re just guessing here. We’ll probably never know the truth. πŸ™‚

            In any case, I agree that the two-battery plus resistor option is inherently safer.

          • Er, no I don’t think that. There are a number of possible failure scenarios including dead batteries, open circuit internal connections, depolarised electrets, and a remote possibility that the charge controller cct. is shorted or low resistance at the input, causing excessive battery drain even through the 1M resistor, and absorbing any output from the electrets. That’s the ‘short’ I was referring to (very unlikely however).

          • FC

            Oh well. Who knows.

            The positive thing is that we have those four test points that allow us to locate the problem (even if we never get to know what it is) and to bypass and replicate the missing sections of the circuit so that hopefully it goes back to normal. πŸ™‚

          • Yes. If that doesn’t work, then either the electrets are no longer working, there is (another?) open circuit somewhere other than in the biasing circuit, or the charge control IC is blown. In all these cases dissection would be the only remaining option.

          • FC

            I really hope we can fix at least the leftmost loop (where the reference voltage is supplied to the powerpack). That should be enough to test the orbo cells’ characteristics. I don’t care that much about the rest of the circuit. There’s nothing extraordinary about it. It’s just conventional electronics.

            But if we can’t make the leftmost loop work as specified, that would mean that there is something wrong with the orbo cells. And in that case, I don’t have much faith in the results of a dissection procedure. πŸ™‚

          • Me neither. I have a growing suspicion that the electrets may require a permanent bias voltage across them in order to maintain them in working order. Without it they may degrade (depolarise) relatively rapidly.

            If so, then the ‘Orbo effect’ remains very interesting from a research POV, but is next to useless in practical applications.

          • FC

            Hopefully we’ll find out today about the condition of the orbo cells and see what Shaun has to say about it.

            Regarding the usefulness of orbo, I’m more inclined to think that the problems that we’re seeing now are integration issues with ancillary circuits, wiring, and components, rather orbo-related issues. I think that the jury is still out. But only time will tell. πŸ™‚

        • georgehants

          Any news of when the new tested and complete unit will arrive so that testing of an Orbo can begin?

        • Anon2012_2014

          A faulty connector on a battery would be an open or simply a very high resistance connection.

          You are suggesting that the battery circuit is open. I don’t see why not put a resistor across the hypothetical open.

          That would explain the zero voltage in L1-L2 as no current is flowing in it.

  • Hhiram

    Is there a formal testing plan with a decision tree yet?

    At some point it must become clear that the O-Cube Frank received is simply broken. If that’s the case, there is really very little use in testing it further. What DOES make sense is to try to extract the actual Orbo power-generating units from the potting resin and test them separately from the other components.

    Right? Because nobody really cares whether this thing actually works as a phone charger. What we really care about is if the actual Orbo units are indeed magical energy-producing gizmos. Testing a broken phone charger isn’t going to get us any closer to answering that…

    • Frank Acland

      I think the last resort may be to apply the voltage from an external source.

      • FC

        Agreed.

      • Sanjeev

        And in case that also fails, one of the eight orbo cells must be either accessed or removed out of the resin somehow. I don’t think we should simply throw away the monkey before we do a postmortem.

    • Anon2012_2014

      +1 +1 +1

      I am thinking the same. Just get one orbo power cell out of the mess. We don’t need to chip the whole cell out, just expose one set of electrodes. I am going to go back to Shaun’s video to see what they looked like.

      Went back to Shaun’s video — the orbo powerpack has 4 wires entering it, two red and two black, an input plug from the 18 V batter source (with the current limiting resistor), and it feeds straight into the USB converter circuit. Should be easy to calculate the power draw to see if the 2x9V batteries could possible recharge it in that time on that resistance (calculated on the current draw in the current meter.) Let’s say not — then could either be residual charge in the orbo power pack (which is a black box, or blue tube after all), or it could charge. Could be his weird electret hypothesis, so remains to be proven.

      The difference is we can create our own load across the orbo output using a resistor rather than running the USB converter. We could charge it directly as a capacitor and discharge it to get a sense of the internal capacitance of the orbo.

      Won’t do it tonight, but seems we have better data with an assumed charge draw on Shaun’s phone and the blue LED; and the real-time voltage across the orbo termiinal and a known current as computed via the voltage drop. So we would know energy in and energy out.

      if we can replicate that with a chipped out powercell, we are in business for benchmarking the unit.

    • SG

      I think the idea is that if we can fix the broken phone charger, then there are some meaningful tests that can be performed before resorting to a tear down. For example, we know the weight and dimensions of the Ocube and therefore can determine how much energy could possibly be stored in such a unit using conventional storage technologies. Then, by measuring output power over a period of time, we can quite easily determine whether the Ocube defies conventional storage technologies. This can all be done (maybe) without risking further damage to the unit.

      On the other hand, I’ll argue against what I just wrote by conceding that Frank has been promised another Ocube, and so maybe it does make sense to gut this one. But I’d be inclined to wait until Frank actually has the second Ocube in-hand.

    • Having just rejoined the conversation I left 10 hours ago, from what I can see we are not too far from the point where that may be the best course, barring a few more obvious test strategies to include direct injection of bias voltage by connecting a replacement voltage chain (9V-1M-9V) across U1-U2. We just need Shaun’s confirmation that the cct independently derived from the video by several commenters is correct for the unit supplied.

      If it proves possible to extract the electret stacks or at least reach their wiring, then we can obviously perform some simple direct tests without any doubts about bad connections and faulty components.

      It may require the skills and patience of a brain surgeon though (and a dremel with a set of coarse burrs) to free the electrets from the resin without damage, and there is still the possibility that the electret dielectric material itself may have depolarised, leaving what are in effect just some home-made capacitors.

      • FC

        Right. Or simply connecting a 9V battery across U1-L2, to bypass and replace the one battery that isn’t working (probably because of a faulty connector).

        But before we do that, I insist that we remove the 470k resistor from its current location (across L1-L2) and connect it across U1-L2 just to test with a lower voltage and power that the circuit gets closed. We don’t lose anything by doing that and, if it works (and L1-L2 starts giving a reading), we will be much surer that nothing blows up when we connect the battery (or batteries).

        • There would be some small risk attached to applying 9V across a depleted battery (overheating, gas build-up in the cell). I would go straight for replacing the whole 18V chain across U1-U2 as we would be assured that the chain is complete and working, and the 1M resistor would provide protection against possible internal shorts or overloads.

          I don’t think there is anything to lose at this point, even if Shaun doesn’t confirm our ‘working’ circuit.

          • FC

            Do you think that a depleted battery would short the circuit? I’m not so sure. For that to happen, the battery would have to be severely damaged. I’m more inclined to think that the problem is in the connections of the battery. But we’re just guessing here. We’ll probably never know the truth. πŸ™‚

            In any case, I agree that the two-battery plus resistor option is inherently safer.

          • Er, no I don’t think that. A battery short circuit is unlikely in the extreme, and in any case current flow through the existing bias cct would still be limited/prevented by the second battery and 1M resistor plus an open circuit if present (as seems likely).

            There are a number of possible failure scenarios including dead batteries, open circuit internal connections, depolarised or low resistance electrets, and a remote possibility that the charge controller IC is shorted or low resistance at the input. That would result in excessive battery drain (= two flat batteries, given time) even through the 1M resistor, and would also absorb any output from the electrets. That’s the ‘possible internal short’ I had in mind (seems unlikely however, on the evidence, although low resistance across the charge controller IC input remains a possibility).

          • FC

            Oh well. Who knows.

            The positive thing is that we have those four test points that allow us to locate the problem (even if we never get to know what it is) and to bypass and replicate the missing sections of the circuit so that hopefully it goes back to normal. πŸ™‚

          • Yes. If that (applying an external bias voltage) doesn’t work, then either the electrets are no longer working, there is (another?) open circuit somewhere other than in the biasing circuit, or the charge control IC is blown. In all these cases, further testing would be futile and dissection would be the only remaining option.

          • FC

            I really hope we can fix at least the leftmost loop (where the reference voltage is supplied to the powerpack). That should be enough to test the orbo cells’ characteristics. I don’t care that much about the rest of the circuit. There’s nothing extraordinary about it. It’s just conventional electronics.

            But if we can’t make the leftmost loop work as specified, that would mean that there is something wrong with the orbo cells. And in that case, I don’t have much faith in the results of a dissection procedure. πŸ™‚

          • Me neither. I have a growing suspicion that the electrets may require a permanent bias voltage across them to maintain them in working order. Without it they may degrade (depolarise) relatively rapidly.

            If so, then the ‘Orbo effect’ remains very interesting from an academic POV, but is probably next to useless in practical applications.

            On edit: … at least at the present stage of development.

          • FC

            Hopefully we’ll find out today about the condition of the orbo cells and see what Shaun has to say about it.

            Regarding the usefulness of orbo, I’m more inclined to think that the problems that we’re seeing now are integration issues with ancillary circuits, wiring, and components, rather orbo-related issues. I think that the jury is still out. But only time will tell. πŸ™‚

        • Anon2012_2014

          A faulty connector on a battery would be an open or simply a very high resistance connection.

          You are suggesting that the battery circuit is open. I don’t see why not put a resistor across the hypothetical open.

          That would explain the zero voltage in L1-L2 as no current is flowing in it.

  • FC

    Agreed.
    Contrats, you figured it out. (Provided we are using the right diagram).

  • FC

    Frank, I don’t know if anyone agrees that the 470 Ohm resistor across L1-L2 has served its purpose.

    What I would now suggest is placing that resistor across U1-L2. And if the voltage readings across L1-L2 immediately gives a reading, then we would have a closed circuit again and the orbo power pack (i.e. the voltage across U1-U2) should start charging a lot quicker.

    • SG

      I’m not sure I agree with this approach because the reference voltage would be (less than) half of the 18 V apparently needed to sufficiently align the dipoles in the Orbo cells to boost the rate of U1-U2 increases. If we suspect OM is correct in his identification of where the break is (which I happen to believe he is correct), I say we just go ahead and connect a 9V battery (carefully paying attention to polarity) across U1/L2. We should probably get Shaun’s thoughts before trying it.

      • FC

        I agree that your suggestion will work. But I think that my approach is safer, as it would confirm our assumptions first. Then, we can plug the battery.

        • Frank Acland

          Shaun’s warning was: “and injecting a voltage across a suspect circuit would always be a last resort!” I hope it works, but I suppose we could end up with a brick.

          • FC

            That’s why the resistor approach is the safest, because it would inject a lower voltage with very little power to damage anything.

            But Shaun knows his device better than anybody else.

      • Frank Acland

        I have sent OM’s diagram to Shaun for his opinion. I have the supplies ready to do the battery test, but would prefer to get his okay first.

        • Anon2012_2014

          I think the battery between U1 and U2 is simply discharged. You can probably put a fresh 9V batteries in parallel across U1U2 without too much harm or risk. Best would be to cut the wire if we are lucky and that is the red wire and simply hook a new one between U1 and U2, if Shaun can confirm we are doing this right.

          We need to benchmark the cells, and if Shaun hasn’t hidden anything from us in his video demo (can’t prove, only can hope), it might actually be a good harvester able to put 1500 joules into an orbo pack overnight; i.e. 50 mW per Orbopack or 400 mW for the 8 packs in the cube. It would be useful and up to Steorn’s spec. Like to know how it works if that is the case, but at least we would know that it does work if we can rule out a chemical battery hidden in the orbopak.

    • FC

      Sorry, I meant 470 kohm.

    • Anon2012_2014

      The 470k resistor just increases the “field” current/voltage across orbo by by about 3x in an attempt to get it working. I don’t know where the extra energy came from in Shaun’s video, but it looks to me to be about 750 joules (2.5 watts for 5 minutes), and the batteries can’t be putting out more than 320 uWatts = 0.1 joules over that 5 minute period. So the energy is coming from somewhere else. Part of it is the capacitor in the Orbo powerpak, but at a starting voltage of 5 volts to get 750 joules would take 60F. That’s a lot of capacitor. Possible. I believe that our Orbo cube has 8 of them in there. But it would take forever to recharge against a 18 volt battery on a 1 Megohm resistor: about 1 month. So That can’t really be it. We have to prove that the orbo packs don’t have a big battery in them and observe its actual charging time.

      A good thing, if Shaun can confirm the schematic, is that the device does not discharge when the USB is not activated, allowing us to do some better energy measurements IF we can confirm the schematic.

      • SG

        The Ocube is said to have x8 Orbo cells.

        >> We have to prove that the orbo packs don’t have a big battery in them and observe its actual charging time.

        Yes, this is key to furthering our understanding.

        • Anon2012_2014

          OK, will revise above post with the 8 cells.

          • FC

            I’m sorry for being so blunt, Anon, but I think we live in different realities.

            If the field across the orbo power pack had increased x3 (and I don’t know where you get this from) we surely would have seen a higher charge rate (the U1-U2 readings in Frank’s spreadsheet).

            And if you don’t know where the extra energy comes from in Shaun’s video, that means that you haven’t understood the video at all. Please watch it again with open ears and an open mind.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Hi FC,

            Be blunt, it is ok for me. I prefer polite rational discourse however.

            To answer you questions:

            1) I think the field across the orbopaks is U2-L2. I think this was measured with a volt meter that acts like a 5K resistor and shunted most of the voltage to ground during measurement. So I think the 3X increase across the orbo is a measurement artifact, and in fact it was always near 7V after putting in the 470K resistor in parallel with the 1Mohm. The 2.3 that was measured I believe was a measurement artifact of the poor circuitry in the Portapow power meter that is NOT really a volt meter, but a power meter and included a voltage measurement as an afterthought.

            2) U1-U2 I believe is the voltage across one of the 9V batteries that I believe has been badly damaged (discharged) down to 0.64 volts. I believe it is SLOWLY recharging and now is at 0.84 volts.

            3) I am a person who believes in scientific method and I do not know where the energy comes from until proven by the scientific method. I hypothesize that the energy comes from the orbopaks, but I haven’t proven it yet.

  • Frank, if you could ask how a battery would possibly function with a unit that is so hard to open. If there is a battery that never needs replacing, it would be a greater invention than the O-cube.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I think that the battery between U1 and U2, I call it “Bat1”, has drained to 0.8 volts. It’s dead. [Had typo, caught by SG calling it U2 to U2…]

      • SG

        Please clarify… between U2 and U2?

        • Anon2012_2014

          See my “space invaders” ugly schematic. BAT1 is between measurement lugs U1 and U2. I think that is one of the 2 9V batteries in series and it is only putting out 0.81V as we speak. I think it has been ruined a long time ago. Maybe from over charging, maybe from over discharge. Who knows. Never liked 9V batteries.

          • SG

            Oh, I see, you meant between U1/U2 not U2/U2. I’m fairly certain this is across the Orbo power pack. But reasonable minds can differ.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Right, fixing typo above.

  • Anon2012_2014

    I think the schematic looks like this. The batteries I believe are in series and the resistor is between the batteries and ground. I think some of the low voltages Frank was getting was due to a low impedance on the voltmeter that was attached to the Portapow, i.e. the Portapow acted like a shunt on the resistors in the circuit. When the 470k resistor was put in parallel with the current limiting resistor, the current went up by about 3x and I believe the Orbo “charged” faster. Sorry about the character based line drawing.
    [This schematic deprecated in favor or OM’s]

    • Anon2012_2014

      Trying to make the schematic bigger…
      [this schematic obsolete — see OM’s]

      • Anon2012_2014

        Please note that I am being gradually persuaded that this above schematic is wrong and I think that the OM schematic, showing the resistor between the batteries and a break between the top battery and the orbopacks is correct. Shaun seems to have confirmed this talking to Frank. The break lets us test with our own 9V batteries and takes the batteries out of the circuit. Simply cutting the red wire should make double sure that the battery circuit is not part of our circuit and lets us careful measure the power input from the 2 9Vs into the orbopack and the downstream power converter.

    • Blue Energy

      I think he shows us in the video that the resistor is in series between the two 9 volt batteries.

      • Anon2012_2014

        In that test rig of his in the video the resistor IS between the batteries . But the data or Frank’s orbocube fits better the way I drew the schematic and it wouldn’t matter for current limiting the setup where in series the resistor was between the batteries or between the batteries and orbopak; with one cell mostly dead (0.8V). That’s why the voltage is higher after he hooks up the 470k resistor and why the voltage is higher with the higher impedance multimeter probe. Do them all in your head against the spreadsheet data: U1L1 U1L2 U1U2 U2L1 U2L2 and L1L2. The L1L2 column is probably zero because the impedance of the Portapow voltmeter is much lower than the 1 meg resistor — it shunts whatever voltage was on the resistor at the 18 mA through the Portapow. You can get L1L2 instead by subtracting U1L1 and U1L2; and also U2L1 and U2L2. I think that is a better measurement with that Portapow.

        • Blue Energy

          No, that’s true – it shouldn’t matter.

    • SG

      >> I believe the Orbo “charged” faster.

      To the contrary, the Orbo has been “charging” more slowly since adding the 470k resistor in parallel to the 1Mohm resistor.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Not certain, but I know that the voltage U2-L2 increased, which I believe is the voltage across the orbopak and ground. Still going up, while it appears to me that the U1U2 battery is slowing gaining at the expense of the U1L1 battery. I’m having some problem with the L1L2 measurement in the sheet — is it really zero or is that an artifact, i.e. why is U2L2 different than U2L1 if L1L2 is zero??

        • SG

          Fairly certain, though. The last two readings across U1/U2 are two of the lowest average per minute increases since readings began on 2/14/16.

          >> I’m having some problem with the L1L2 measurement in the sheet — is it really zero or is that an artifact.

          This needs to be definitively answered. We have a better digital multimeter on order. Frank should have it by this week.

          >> why is U2L2 different than U2L1 is L1L2 is zero

          Because of the voltage drop across the parallel resistors.

          • Anon2012_2014

            “>> why is U2L2 different than U2L1 is L1L2 is zero

            “Because of the voltage drop across the parallel resistors.”

            I think because of the voltage drop across the low impedance Portapow voltmeter. Anyway, to be continued tomorrow. I feel as if this project is getting somewhere using our combined efforts.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Where would you put the terminals L1-L2 then? If they were attached to the resistor as has been proposed below but there is no voltage between them (at 1 MOhm/16 microA one could expect 16V), a second resistor in parallel would have no effect.

      • Anon2012_2014

        I think the 0 volts was a measurement error on the low impedance volt meter that comes with the Portapow. Portapow is not designed as a voltmeter, its designed as a power meter. As such, it doesn’t really need such a low impedance when we are measuring watts and milliwatts. I think his yellow portable multimeter is probably a higher impedance (10 megohms) like the radioshack job I have here at my home.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          But the other digital meter reads also 0 volts, according to the spreadsheet.

          • Anon2012_2014

            We have to ask Frank to verify after he gets up. It’s weird as U2L2 != U2L1.
            Essentially this equality should be true: V[U2L2]-V[U2L1] = V[L2L1]

            Calling it a night. TTYL… Space Invaders!

          • SG

            It would be weird for a closed circuit. But the conjecture (best as yet in my opinion) is that we have a faulty connection between U1 and the anode of the battery connected to L2.

          • SG

            Correct. And we have yet another (better) digital multimeter on order, which Frank should have by this week. We can then triple confirm the 0 V reading.

    • FC

      IMHO, we are all here to test Steorn’s claims. Therefore, we need to assume that all the information that they give us is correct, which not only is essential for the testing of their claims, but will also allow us to keep a common mindset so that we can understand each other’s comments.

      That means that, until Shaun rejects our circuit schematic (the one that some of us have developed independently overnight based on Shaun’s video) or Shaun provides a different one, we should assume that it is correct, like the rest of the information he has given us.

      If and when Steorn’s claims are proven wrong, then we can let our imaginations loose and start proposing all kinds of hypotheses about orbo and the ocube. In the meantime, I believe that we should stick to testing Shaun’s words and ideas. So I will refrain from discussing any hypothesis the goes counter to what Steorn is telling us, like the ones that permeate most, if not all, of your comments.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Please note that I am being gradually persuaded that this above schematic is wrong and I think that the OM schematic, showing the resistor between the batteries and a break between the top battery and the orbopacks is correct. Shaun seems to have confirmed this talking to Frank.

      • SG

        Yes, the evidence points this way. But I think the robust discussion helped all of us hone our thoughts.

  • Frank Acland

    I’m actually still up (barely). I’ve just used my analog meter to measure on its lowest DCV setting to measure U1-L2, U2-L2 and L1-L2, and there is not a hint of movement from the needle in any case.

    • Frank Acland

      3 different meters, 3 different readings. I hope the one coming Thursday will be more reliable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EYYJQOO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

      • Rob King

        Hi Frank,
        The analogue meter will have a much lower resistance on the lower voltage readings because it has to move a needle – perhaps 50K ohms. The digital will be the best for accurate measurement across the 1 M ohm current limiting resistor, this will be around 10M ohms. Not sure about the other Portapow meter but again, a different resistance will be applied across the circuit altering the true measured voltage.
        Not sure why people keep thinking the 1M Ohm resistor is between the second battery and ground – it would make no sense. With L1 and L2 across the resistor and the batteries either side, you get the check the state of the batteries via L1 to U1 and L2 to U2. Even the video shows it.
        The 2 black blocks exposed through the potting, are these the batteries?
        They appear to be covered in black PCV tape. You could try to peel the tape off to see what is under it – might say Energiser 9V.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Rob,

          From frank’s video, I showed 1 megohm on the yellow vs 100 kohm on portapow, vs offscale low (maybe 10K ohm) on the analog meter.

  • georgehants

    Any news of when the new tested and complete unit will arrive so that testing of an Orbo can begin?

  • ecatworld

    Morning all, I’ve been talking with Shaun this morning. His proposed solution is to put 18V on U1-U2. I have to go out for a bit and I’ll get some supplies so we can do this test. I’ll be back in 2-3 hours.

    • … with a 1M resistance in series of course.

      • ecatworld

        yes — that’s right. Sorry left that part out.

        • ‘Do or die’ (the unit is a write-off if this doesn’t work).

          • Rob King

            I am confident that as long as the converter circuit has not failed then this will be fine. If all else fails, it might be a case of digging the orbo pack out of the potting – hopefully it should not come to that.

        • Blue Energy

          Good. I think this is the right plan. I’m glad Shaun thinks so too. I’m sympathetic with those who want to think outside the box that Shaun has described (since our whole purpose from the beginning has been to test whether what Shaun says is true). But, I think we have to go this way first. If it turns out that the unit still does not perform as claimed then more extreme things can be tried. But, it’s not going to be easy to dig those electrets out of the resin without damaging them. And it would almost certainly be very slow (I’m thinking solvent on cue tips…) to avoid immersing them in solvent.

          And, after all that, as has been said many times, it may be that the electrets have already gone fruit – in which case a positive result from all that effort might be doomed from the beginning. If, having dug the electrets out and created our own circuit with them matching Shaun’s design, we don’t get the hoped-for result – there is tenable doubt left that lets Steorn off the hook. So, the only way that anything is proven is if it *does* work. As a skeptic looking for a decisive result, I’m very disappointed about that.

          • Blue Energy

            Not that I’ll be disappointed if it *does* work, of course…

    • Rob King

      Frank, you can clip the + from one battery to the – of the other, leaving 2 free terminals (- and +) from the joined batteries. Obviously do not connect + AND – from one battery to the – AND + of the other or they will short each other.
      This will simplify your connections to U1 and U2 via a resistor.

      • SG

        The batteries should not be directly connected to each other. The resistor should be connected between the batteries (see diagrams below, except for Anon’s).

        • I don’t think the order of connection makes any difference, so long as we end up with 18V and a resistor in series.

          • SG

            Yes, the resistor will limit the current no matter where it is placed in the loop.

            But to maintain fidelity to Shaun’s latest video, I think we should just hook it up the same way.

    • SG

      Shaun’s suggested approach cuts to the chase and will let us know if the reference voltage apparatus was the problem. On the downside, the approach will make it difficult to discern which of the two primary failure theories proposed by our community was the correct one. But I’m willing to accept that if it means we can get the unit operating according to expectations.

    • Anon2012_2014

      If it is an open between the battery and the orbopack, this simply replaces the batteries and resistor. If this is what Shaun thinks it is even better because now you have isolated the orbopack input from the battery.

      Just in case, you could cut the red wire between the batteries to make sure that they are not in the circuit.

  • Frank Acland

    Morning all, I’ve been talking with Shaun this morning. His proposed solution is to put 18V on U1-U2. I have to go out for a bit and I’ll get some supplies so we can do this test. I’ll be back in 2-3 hours.

    • … with a 1M resistance in series of course.

      • Frank Acland

        yes — that’s right. Sorry left that part out.

        • ‘Do or die’ then (the unit is a write-off if this doesn’t work).

          • Rob King

            I am confident that as long as the converter circuit has not failed then this will be fine. If all else fails, it might be a case of digging the orbo pack out of the potting – hopefully it should not come to that.

        • Blue Energy

          Good. I think this is the right plan. I’m glad Shaun thinks so too. I’m sympathetic with those who want to think outside the box that Shaun has described (since our whole purpose from the beginning has been to test whether what Shaun says is true). But, I think we have to go this way first. If it turns out that the unit still does not perform as claimed then more extreme things can be tried. But, it’s not going to be easy to dig those electrets out of the resin without damaging them. And it would almost certainly be very slow (I’m thinking solvent on cue tips…) to avoid immersing them in solvent.

          And, after all that, as has been said many times, it may be that the electrets have already gone fruit – in which case a positive result from all that effort might be doomed from the beginning. If, having dug the electrets out and created our own circuit with them matching Shaun’s design, we don’t get the hoped-for result – there is tenable doubt left that lets Steorn off the hook. So, the only way that anything is proven is if it *does* work. As a skeptic looking for a decisive result, I’m very disappointed about that.

          • Blue Energy

            Not that I’ll be disappointed if it *does* work, of course…

    • Rob King

      Frank, you can clip the + from one battery to the – of the other, leaving 2 free terminals (- and +) from the joined batteries. Obviously do not connect + AND – from one battery to the – AND + of the other or they will short each other.
      This will simplify your connections to U1 and U2 via a resistor.

      • SG

        The batteries should not be directly connected to each other. The resistor should be connected between the batteries (see diagrams below, except for Anon’s).

        • I don’t think the order of connection makes any difference, so long as we end up with 18V and a resistor in series.

          • SG

            Yes, the resistor will limit the current no matter where it is placed in the loop.

            But to maintain fidelity to Shaun’s latest video, I think we should just hook it up the same way.

    • SG

      Shaun’s suggested approach cuts to the chase and will let us know if the reference voltage apparatus was the problem. On the downside, the approach will make it difficult to discern which of the two primary failure theories proposed by our community was the correct one. But I’m willing to accept that if it means we can get the unit operating according to expectations.

    • Anon2012_2014

      If it is an open between the battery and the orbopack, this simply replaces the batteries and resistor. If this is what Shaun thinks it is even better because now you have isolated the orbopack input from the battery.

      Just in case, you could cut the red wire between the batteries to make sure that they are not in the circuit.

  • ecatworld

    Video posted above showing my wiring setup. It’s not attached to the cube yet. I would welcome any suggestions for testing this out before we attach it.

    • FC

      Good job, Frank. πŸ™‚

      I trust the batteries are 9 V and the resistor 1 MOhm. So I’d be happy if you could just measure the current through this thing, as a double check.

      • ecatworld

        Yes 2 9V batteries and a 1M Ohm resistor. Amps read 15.9 on the 200u setting on my meter.

        • FC

          Looks fine to me then.

          Did Shaun advise you regarding the polarity?

          • ecatworld

            No, I should double check.

          • FC

            Definitely. We may only have one shot at it. πŸ™‚

          • ecatworld

            BTW, Volts without the resistor in the circuit is 17.1, with the resistor in the circuit is 0.14 — does that sound right?

          • FC

            Not at first blush.
            Can you double check it?

          • SG

            Where did you place your probes for these readings?

          • ecatworld

            I’ll do a video, easier to explain.

          • 0.14V from first battery to output of resistor suggests a bad connection to the resistor or to your screw ‘probe’ to me. 17.1V for the batteries in series suggests that the batteries are none too fresh.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            In case that you mean the resistor between L1 and L2 I would guess that you have chosen the wrong polarity.

          • Blue Energy

            I believe he means his external resister.

          • ecatworld

            Yes, that’s correct. Video almost ready

          • Anon2012_2014

            Which meter? I would use your multimeter and not Portapow. I think Portapow has a low impedance input that throws off your measurement.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Disregard. I think this has something to do with the load of the portapow voltmeter.

          • ecatworld

            Video above now.

          • 0.14V across the assembly suggests a bad connection to the resistor or to your screw ‘probe’ to me. 17.1V for the batteries in series indicates that the batteries are none too fresh (should be 18V assuming high meter impedence).

            If you follow Rob King’s suggestion below about clipping one terminal on each battery together, that would simplify the arrangement enormously.

          • FC

            I’d say it’s due to poor contact.

            Can you attach the alligator clip back to the loose side and measure on the clip?

          • ecatworld

            Measuring on the clip gives the same readings.

          • Can you check the battery voltages separately? It’s just possible could be nearly flat. Bad connection more likely though.

          • ecatworld

            Batteries are 8.71 and 8.68 V (yellow meter)

          • FC

            I don’t think there’s anything wrong, Frank. Personally, I’m satisfied with the setup.

            I would focus on getting advice from Shaun regarding the polarity.

          • Anon2012_2014

            If your OM diagram with the break at the batteries is correct, would not we expect the polarity on the orbopack to match the polarity on the battery input?

          • Mmm – I’ve just measured voltage from a brand new PP3 alkaline battery using an identical digital meter and (slightly surprisingly) get 9.92V (20Vdc setting).

          • Blue Energy

            Shelf life.

          • Yes – Frank’s batteries are a little suspect. Hopefully they’ll provide enough juice though.

          • ecatworld

            Ok email comment from Shaun

            Hey Frank, it’s pretty simple, connect the positive to the positive of the two terminals you are measuring the voltage across and the negative to the negative. And then leave it to see if the cells are regaining their charge.

            No guarantees on this thing, the internal wiring has clearly got itself fecked up – anyway the good news is that the tests on the modifications to the cube are still testing very well so we will hopefully be in a position to ship a new one to you soon.

          • FC

            There you go. Do you think you can do this, Frank?

          • ecatworld

            Ok I’m getting ready to put the paddles on the heart patient!

          • FC

            Anyone has any last wish?

          • Blue Energy

            Anyone notice how much this discussion resembles the cast of The Big Bang Theory putting together Ikea furniture?

          • Anon2012_2014

            LOL

          • I’m inclined to agree. Suddenly there is too much rush and confusion.

          • Blue Energy

            Well… there’s a certain fervently herding cats feeling to it. But it also resembles every engineering discussion I’ve had where the participants are mostly on the same page and headed for concurrence.

          • We can still get some more useful data first, by monitoring U1-U2 for voltage decline and/or regeneration before applying the bias voltage.

          • Anon2012_2014

            “the internal wiring has clearly got itself fecked up”

            I believe there is an exposed red wire between the two 9Vs in the orbocube. If that is coming from one of the 9V battery anodes, we can simply cut it and tape it with electrical tape to take the batteries and internal resistor out of the circuit for sure.

          • FC

            That’s actually a very good idea. πŸ™‚

          • Blue Energy

            IF that is a battery…

          • ecatworld

            Ok I’ll do that surgery first

          • SG

            Frank, I recommend not doing this. One change at a time is a good engineering practice. Unless you get clear direction from Shaun, let’s do it later.

          • Blue Energy

            Me too.

          • ecatworld

            Too late I’m afraid, still, it can be repaired.

          • SG

            I say repair it. Otherwise, it will be harder to attribute our next set of results to which change.

          • Blue Energy

            Exactly.

          • FC

            Haha, no worries.

            Let’s move on.

          • Stephen

            Hmm would it make sense to check the voltage/current on the cut wires before proceeding?

          • Blue Energy

            But, against what? Where do you put the other probe? We don’t know for sure what the red wire represents.

          • ecatworld

            It’s 0

          • SG

            What is 0? Where did you put your probes?

          • ecatworld

            across the severed red wires

          • No there won’t be any reading there, You could try each end of the cut against L1, L2, U1 and U2 in turn (20V setting)

          • ecatworld

            Ok before we do the “last resort” test, I’ll add one final set of readings into the spreadsheet.

          • Prolly doesn’t matter. It won’t affect the test.

          • FC

            To me, it would make more sense to check the voltage across the powerpack (U1-U2), to make sure it is intact.

          • ecatworld

            U1-U2 is 0.8659

          • FC

            Great. Let’s move on.

          • SG

            Okay, that is good.

          • Blue Energy

            And that means it probably is a battery.

          • Odd. If the batteries have been isolated, this must be Orbo output.

          • FC

            It always was, since the reference voltage loop was shorted.

          • SG

            Well, actually open.

          • FC

            You are right. πŸ™‚

          • Blue Energy

            …and/or cap.

          • Theoretically the output capacitor is isolated by the charge controller, but the Orbo stacks themselves have capacitance. Perhaps we could leave the meter connected to supply a small load, and see if the value declines steadily or remains level.

          • Blue Energy

            Oh – yeah. That makes sense.

          • ecatworld

            According to Shaun U1-U2 is measuring the Orbo pack

          • Blue Energy

            But, it’s not isolated from the capacitor – so I don’t see how you can tell them apart.

          • Yes – but if the reading stays constant (see my post below) its the first time we are sure that the reading can’t be generated by leakage from the battery circuit.

          • It may be a bit late but it would be very valuable if we could get Shaun’s confirmation that the red wire is (was) a battery connection.

          • Anon2012_2014

            It was probably connected from the first 9V to L1.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Orbopack (assuming it is U2-U2) has been slowly charging it appears for the past 24 hours into the capacitor. It may be that it is charging a capacitor and the rate of charge might accelerate after the bias field is applied.

          • FC

            Orbo is the capacitor. The cells have huge capacitance.

          • SG

            Well, we think there is also a separate 5 F capacitor. But yes, Orbo cells seem to have some pretty amazing capacitance themselves.

          • FC

            Orders of magnitude greater.
            5F is just a buffer.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Apparently, since the LEDs were working for 1-2 hours initially. Except if the 1 MOhm resistor had a short, which does not seem likely.

          • FC

            Exactly.

          • SG

            Yes, I estimated around 960 F in total at one point. Some serious capacitance. This in itself is quite mysterious.

          • FC

            Indeed. Orbo cells actually outperform supercapacitors in every sense, especially energy density.

          • Yes, so there might be a residual charge. Leaving a voltmeter connected would either discharge it, or confirm that the voltage is actively produced. Likewise any regeneration after discharge.

          • FC

            Orbo cells never stop recharging themselves. Only the charge rate varies depending on the voltage of the electric field. Says Shaun.

          • Right, but the purpose of our efforts is to see if that actually takes place. Having no batteries attached gives us an opportunity to do so.

          • SG

            Yes, there would be value in pausing and gathering some additional data points before moving to the next step.

          • ecatworld

            I Put the latest data in the spreadsheet about 1/2 an hour ago
            Should I do one last measure?

          • SG

            Yes, would be good to have.

          • ecatworld

            Ok will do

          • FC

            It’s been a while since there’s been any batteries attached, if there ever was any. That’s why the rate is so low.

          • True. The only difference is that now we know for sure the batteries aren’t connected.

          • Anon2012_2014

            The yellow voltmeter is a 1 megohm load. Assume Orbopacks have 5F at their output and zero load going to the USB charging circuit, they have been putting in about 3 to 7 uW from the beginning. at 0.87 volts on 1 MOhm we get 0.8 uW, so it should keep charging if we leave the yellow meter on, only more slowly.

          • OK, an additional load might be necessary to cause a discharge then. However it seems that such tests will need to wait until after the bias voltage has been restored.

          • Anon2012_2014

            If there is 900F in the orbopacks answer would be about 900/5 times more power and energy = 0.5 to 1.25 mW (without the battery field charge).

          • SG

            Yes. Our prior calculations have always been very conservative when assuming only 5 F of capacitance.

          • I’m not sure why we are assuming such high values. I wouldn’t have thought that the surface area of the foil in the Orbo cells would provide more than millifarads of capacitance at the most.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Let’s call it β€žstorage capabilityβ€œ. It must not be a capacitor in the usual sense.

          • FC

            True. But they discharge pretty darn quick for a battery. πŸ™‚

          • Andreas Moraitis

            On the other hand, charging takes apparently a lot of time. No competing product for capacitors so far.

          • FC

            Self-charging, you mean?

            We don’t know about charging from an external source. πŸ˜‰

          • SG

            Frank loaded the ocube with between .75 W and 1.5 W more or less continuously for about 2 hours after unpackaging it. In Shaun’s latest video, ~ 1500 J of energy is discharged into a phone from a single Orbo cell. The Ocube contains x8 Orbo cells. With this data, one can make some estimates of what kind of aggregate “capacitance” the Orbo cells have in the Ocube.

          • I assume the video you refer to is on Steorn’s facebook page – I’ll take a look. However AFAIK, the energy output to a phone always comes from the lithium battery (or a capacitor in our case) that is separated from the Orbo packs by a charge controller. We don’t have any evidence that power is stored in the Orbo packs.

            The electrets are in effect just home-made foil capacitors in which the dielectric is replaced by a material that can be made to retain a polarised electrostatic field, foil to foil. I would expect capacitance in the region of a few hundred microfarads, unless some real magic is taking place (in addition to the self-charging, that is).

          • FC

            The latest models they are preparing for production have no Li-ion battery. Only a 5F cap. Where do they store the energy then?

          • In the 5F capacitor?…

          • SG

            Well yes, some of the energy. But this accounts for a fraction of what we have observed. More testing needed of course.

          • SG

            There are some claiming that the two 9 V batteries used as the reference/bias electric field is supplying the energy. Based on our probing and understanding of the circuit, I find such arguments to be implausible.

          • SG

            There is a link to the video above in Frank’s main posting.

          • Worth watching it for while before doing so, I would have thought.

          • I’m not sure that is a great idea. We don’t know for sure that the red wire is a battery connection.

          • FC

            Ok, Frank. Let’s follow the majority’s vote. πŸ™‚

          • SG

            I’d be reluctant to do this at this point. One change at a time.

          • DrD

            That would be a very good move but only after Shaun’s suggestions completed. Then can use a new resistor and new 9V batteries. I didn’t dare suggest it. It eliminates the “fecked up wiring” including any “fecked up” batteries and resistor.

          • Too late DrD – the deed is done and the bodge applied! Read on…

          • DrD

            Hehe, I’m lost. Yes, I just found the rest of the comments but have the new batteries and resistor been connected across the orbo cell? Do the last measurements represent this set up? Sorry I’ve been away and lost the thread

          • Yes, and yes. It looks like a charge is building across the electrets. I don’t think we know yet whether this is being reflected by a growing charge in the output capacitor.

          • DrD

            Thanks — Magic — (or maybe black magic)

          • Blue Energy

            No magic to a charge building up in the electrets. We do have them connected to batteries. But, if that translates to usable output – that will be pretty amazing. I’m hoping against hope.

          • DrD

            Agreed, not magic– but the “new physics”. Exciting times.

          • Blue Energy

            I don’t think so. It at least looks as if we might ultimately get to test this unit for the manufacturers claim after all. That’s pretty exciting.

          • ecatworld

            Yes for about an hour now. See the SS for data.

          • DrD

            Thanks Frank.
            Do we have a corrected block diagram?
            The last one by Anon2012_2014 doesn’t seem to work with the SS data. According to the block diagram the new batteries and resistor should be across the orbo (electrets).that is across U2 and L2. U2 is the orbo (positive) L2 is the ground. The other terminals are no longer relevant if the wire between the old batteries was cut.

            Sorry to ask, I may have missed an update to the block diagram?

          • Blue Energy

            I haven’t seen an updated diagram. I don’t think we really know where the L1/L2 taps are. But, it’s pretty clear that Frank cutting the red wire left that sub-circuit cold anyway. The new hardware (two 9V batteries in series with a 1M resistor between them) replaces it. We’re getting an increase in output portion of the circuit which we think indicates that the electrets are charging at a faster rate now. But we don’t know yet whether they are charging faster than could be expected given the input of electricity from the 9v batteries.

          • DrD

            Cheers for that explanation. that’s good news so far. It’s fairly important to know the connections though as we might have the new components still feeding through part of the potentially “fecked wiring” which might inhibit the field.

          • georgehants

            I will be very pleased to see the new unit arrive.
            It is a good job that we don’t have guys marooned in space waiting for a solution to this problem, they would be fossilized by now, I think.

          • FC

            Does it improve at all if you press a little harder?

            Also, as suggested above, use the yellow meter.

          • Yes, definitely use the yellow one if not already doing so.

          • SG

            Are these Lithium Ion 9V batteries? Recently purchased?

    • Blue Energy

      Deep breath…

  • Frank Acland

    Video posted above showing my wiring setup. It’s not attached to the cube yet. I would welcome any suggestions for testing this out before we attach it.

    • FC

      Good job, Frank. πŸ™‚

      I trust the batteries are 9 V and the resistor 1 MOhm. So I’d be happy if you could just measure the current through this thing, as a double check.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes 2 9V batteries and a 1M Ohm resistor. Amps read 15.9 on the 200u setting on my meter.

        • FC

          Looks fine to me then.

          Did Shaun advise you regarding the polarity?

          • Frank Acland

            No, I should double check.

          • FC

            Definitely. We may only have one shot at it. πŸ™‚

          • Frank Acland

            BTW, Volts without the resistor in the circuit is 17.1, with the resistor in the circuit is 0.14 — does that sound right?

          • FC

            Not at first blush.
            Can you double check it?

          • SG

            Where did you place your probes for these readings?

          • Frank Acland

            I’ll do a video, easier to explain.

          • moved

          • Andreas Moraitis

            In case that you mean the resistor between L1 and L2 I would guess that you have chosen the wrong polarity.

          • Blue Energy

            I believe he means his external resister.

          • Frank Acland

            Yes, that’s correct. Video almost ready

          • Anon2012_2014

            Which meter? I would use your multimeter and not Portapow. I think Portapow has a low impedance input that throws off your measurement.

            Measured from video Portapow is 100K ohm vs yellow meter 1 mOhm.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Disregard. I think this has something to do with the load of the portapow voltmeter.

          • Frank Acland

            Video above now.

          • 0.14V across the assembly suggests a bad connection to the resistor or to your screw ‘probe’ to me. 17.1V for the batteries in series indicates that the batteries may be none too fresh (should be 18V, near as makes no odds).

            If you follow Rob King’s suggestion below about clipping one terminal on each battery together, that would simplify the arrangement enormously, and reduce the chances of any bad contacts.

          • FC

            I’d say it’s due to poor contact.

            Can you attach the alligator clip back to the loose side and measure on the clip?

          • Frank Acland

            Measuring on the clip gives the same readings.

          • Can you check the battery voltages separately? It’s just possible one could be nearly flat. Bad connection more likely though.

          • Frank Acland

            Batteries are 8.71 and 8.68 V (yellow meter)

          • FC

            I don’t think there’s anything wrong, Frank. Personally, I’m satisfied with the setup.

            I would focus on getting advice from Shaun regarding the polarity.

          • Anon2012_2014

            If your OM diagram with the break at the batteries is correct, would not we expect the polarity on the orbopack to match the polarity on the battery input?

          • Mmm – I’ve just measured voltage from a brand new PP3 alkaline battery using an identical DT830B digital meter and (slightly surprisingly) get 9.92V (20Vdc setting).

          • Blue Energy

            Shelf life.

          • Yes – Frank’s batteries are more than a little suspect. Hopefully they’ll provide enough juice, but the massive drop across a 1M resistance worries me.

          • FC

            Does it improve at all if you press a little harder?

            Also, as suggested above, use the yellow meter.

          • Yes, definitely use the yellow one if not already doing so.

          • SG

            Are these Lithium Ion 9V batteries? Recently purchased?

        • damn_right _man

          What are You going to test right now ? If the batteries will be charged ? You want to add those batteries to simulate a working ocube, in order to see, if that “magic charger” really does it’s job, as steorn said ?

          • FC

            Yes.

          • SG

            It is less about “simulating” and more about testing the claims related to the Ocube.

          • If this works, the output capacitor will charge and the USB port should be able to sustain a modest load such as an LED. However even if it does work, I’m sure that skeptics such as yourself will simply claim that the charge is coming from the two batteries.

          • Blue Energy

            There are two general parts to the circuit. One of those is suspected to be broken. It is the one in which the two 9 volt batteries stimulate the orbo cells to produce extra juice. Luckily, there is outside access to that portion of the circuit. Frank is going to attempt to replace the two 9 volt batteries and the 1 megaohm resister in the circuit by attaching new ones to that access point. If it works, then the O-Cube should begin producing power that will be captured by the 5F capacitor.

    • Blue Energy

      Deep breath…

  • Anon2012_2014

    I think the video shows the yellow multimeter has the highest input impedance. This is as expected. I would use it as it throws off less of the voltage measurements.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Yes, that was obvious from the previous measurements. The analog meter is junk, it would be better not to use it any longer.

      • Rob King

        Hi Frank,
        Just check the current, it should be around 17uA for 1M Ohm resistor.
        Then it should be OK to test, just make sure + goes to U1 and – to U2, monitor the voltage and watch to see if it rises, if it falls you got it the wrong way around.

        • FC

          That’s already been done. 15.9 uA

  • Anon2012_2014

    I think the video shows the yellow multimeter has the highest input impedance. This is as expected. I would use it as it throws off less of the voltage measurements:

    17.32 direct to the battery vs 8.77 when through the 1 MOhm resistor.

    I*(R1+R2) = 17.32
    I*(R2) = 8.77
    R1 = 1 meg

    I*R1 = 8.55
    I = 8.55 uA
    R2 = 8.77/8.55e-6 = 1.025 megohms

    Yellow meter has an apparent input impedance of 1 megohm.

    Just something to remember when measuring with it.

    —————-

    Portapow

    I*(r1+r2) = 17.63
    I*(r2) = 1.61
    r1=1e6

    I*r1 = 16.0 V
    I = 16 uA
    R2 = 1.61/16.0e-6 = 100 kOhm

    Portapow is like shunting with a 100 kOhm resistor.

    Check my work please.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Yes, that was obvious from the previous measurements. The analog meter is junk, it would be better not to use it any longer.

      • Rob King

        Hi Frank,
        Just check the current, it should be around 17uA for 1M Ohm resistor.
        Then it should be OK to test, just make sure + goes to U1 and – to U2, monitor the voltage and watch to see if it rises, if it falls you got it the wrong way around.

        • FC

          That’s already been done. 15.9 uA

  • FC

    Yes.

  • SG

    It is less about “simulating” and more about testing the claims related to the Ocube.

    • Blue Energy

      There are two general parts to the circuit. One of those is suspected to be broken. It is the one in which the two 9 volt batteries stimulate the orbo cells to produce extra juice. Luckily, there is outside access to that portion of the circuit. Frank is going to attempt to replace the two 9 volt batteries and the 1 megaohm resister in the circuit by attaching new ones to that access point. If it works, then the O-Cube should begin producing power that will be captured by the 5F capacitor.

  • If this works, the output capacitor will charge and the USB port should be able to sustain a modest load such as an LED.

  • Frank Acland

    Ok email comment from Shaun

    Hey Frank, it’s pretty simple, connect the positive to the positive of the two terminals you are measuring the voltage across and the negative to the negative. And then leave it to see if the cells are regaining their charge.

    No guarantees on this thing, the internal wiring has clearly got itself fecked up – anyway the good news is that the tests on the modifications to the cube are still testing very well so we will hopefully be in a position to ship a new one to you soon.

    • FC

      There you go. Do you think you can do this, Frank?

      • Frank Acland

        Ok I’m getting ready to put the paddles on the heart patient!

        • FC

          Anyone has any last wish?

        • Blue Energy

          Anyone notice how much this discussion resembles the cast of The Big Bang Theory putting together Ikea furniture?

          • Anon2012_2014

            LOL

          • I’m inclined to agree. Suddenly there is too much rush and confusion.

          • Blue Energy

            Well… there’s a certain fervently herding cats feeling to it. But it also resembles every engineering discussion I’ve had where the participants are mostly on the same page and headed for concurrence.

        • We can still get some more useful data first, by monitoring U1-U2 for voltage decline and/or regeneration before applying the bias voltage.

    • Anon2012_2014

      “the internal wiring has clearly got itself fecked up”

      I believe there is an exposed red wire between the two 9Vs in the orbocube. If that is coming from one of the 9V battery anodes, we can simply cut it and tape it with electrical tape to take the batteries and internal resistor out of the circuit for sure.

      • FC

        That’s actually a very good idea. πŸ™‚

        • Blue Energy

          IF that is a battery…

        • Frank Acland

          Ok I’ll do that surgery first

          • SG

            Frank, I recommend not doing this. One change at a time is a good engineering practice. Unless you get clear direction from Shaun, let’s do it later.

          • Blue Energy

            Me too.

          • Frank Acland

            Too late I’m afraid, still, it can be repaired.

          • SG

            I say repair it. Otherwise, it will be harder to attribute our next set of results to which change.

          • Blue Energy

            Exactly.

          • FC

            Haha, no worries.

            Let’s move on.

          • Stephen

            Hmm would it make sense to check the voltage/current on the cut wires before proceeding?

          • Blue Energy

            But, against what? Where do you put the other probe? We don’t know for sure what the red wire represents.

          • Frank Acland

            It’s 0

          • SG

            What is 0? Where did you put your probes?

          • Frank Acland

            across the severed red wires

          • No there won’t be any reading there. You could try each end of the cut against L1, L2, U1 and U2 in turn (20V setting)

          • Frank Acland

            Ok before we do the “last resort” test, I’ll add one final set of readings into the spreadsheet.

          • Prolly doesn’t matter. It won’t affect the test and won’t tell us much either way.

          • FC

            To me, it would make more sense to check the voltage across the powerpack (U1-U2), to make sure it is intact.

          • Frank Acland

            U1-U2 is 0.8659

          • FC

            Great. Let’s move on.

          • SG

            Okay, that is good.

          • Blue Energy

            And that means it probably is a battery.

          • If the batteries have been isolated, this must be Orbo output.

          • FC

            It always was, since the reference voltage loop was shorted.

          • SG

            Well, actually open.

          • FC

            You are right. πŸ™‚

          • Blue Energy

            …and/or cap.

          • Theoretically the output capacitor is isolated by the charge controller, but the Orbo stacks themselves have capacitance. Perhaps we could leave the meter connected to supply a small load, and see if the value declines steadily or remains level.

          • Blue Energy

            Oh – yeah. That makes sense.

          • Frank Acland

            According to Shaun U1-U2 is measuring the Orbo pack

          • Blue Energy

            But, it’s not isolated from the capacitor – so I don’t see how you can tell them apart.

          • Yes – but if the reading stays constant (see my post below) or regenerates after a period (next suggested test) its the first time we are sure that the reading can’t be generated by leakage from the battery circuit.

          • It may be a bit late but it would be very valuable if we could get Shaun’s confirmation that the red wire is (was) a battery connection.

          • Anon2012_2014

            It was probably connected from the first 9V to L1.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Orbopack (assuming it is U2-U2) has been slowly charging it appears for the past 24 hours into the capacitor. It may be that it is charging a capacitor and the rate of charge might accelerate after the bias field is applied.

          • FC

            Orbo is the capacitor. The cells have huge capacitance.

          • SG

            Well, we think there is also a separate 5 F capacitor. But yes, Orbo cells seem to have some pretty amazing capacitance themselves.

          • FC

            Orders of magnitude greater.
            5F is just a buffer.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Apparently, since the LEDs were working for 1-2 hours initially. Except if the 1 MOhm resistor had a short, which does not seem likely.

          • FC

            Exactly.

          • SG

            Yes, I estimated around 960 F in total at one point. Some serious capacitance. This in itself is quite mysterious.

          • FC

            Indeed. Orbo cells actually outperform supercapacitors in every sense, especially energy density.

          • I’m not sure its huge, but there might be a residual charge. Leaving a voltmeter connected would either discharge it, or confirm that the voltage is actively produced. Likewise any regeneration after discharge.

          • FC

            Orbo cells never stop recharging themselves. Only the charge rate varies depending on the voltage of the electric field. Says Shaun.

          • Right, but the purpose of our efforts is to see if that actually takes place. Having no batteries attached gives us an opportunity to do so.

          • SG

            Yes, there would be value in pausing and gathering some additional data points before moving to the next step.

          • Frank Acland

            I Put the latest data in the spreadsheet about 1/2 an hour ago
            Should I do one last measure?

          • SG

            Yes, would be good to have.

          • Frank Acland

            Ok will do

          • FC

            It’s been a while since there’s been any batteries attached, if there ever was any. That’s why the rate is so low.

          • True. The only difference is that now we know for sure the batteries aren’t connected. If there is any change, it’s entirely due to cutting the red wire.

          • Anon2012_2014

            The yellow voltmeter is a 1 megohm load. Assume Orbopacks have 5F at their output and zero load going to the USB charging circuit, they have been putting in about 3 to 7 uW from the beginning. at 0.87 volts on 1 MOhm we get 0.8 uW, so it should keep charging if we leave the yellow meter on, only more slowly.

          • OK, an additional load might be necessary to cause a discharge then. However it seems that such tests will need to wait until after the bias voltage has been temporarily restored.

          • Anon2012_2014

            If there is 900F in the orbopacks answer would be about 900/5 times more power and energy = 0.5 to 1.25 mW (without the battery field charge).

          • SG

            Yes. Our prior calculations have always been very conservative when assuming only 5 F of capacitance.

          • I’m not sure why we are assuming such high values. I wouldn’t have thought that the surface area of the foil in the Orbo cells would provide more than millifarads of capacitance at the most.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Let’s call it β€žstorage capabilityβ€œ. It must not be a capacitor in the usual sense.

          • FC

            True. But they discharge pretty darn quick for a battery. πŸ™‚

          • Andreas Moraitis

            On the other hand, charging takes apparently a lot of time. No competing product for capacitors so far.

          • FC

            Self-charging, you mean?

            We don’t know about charging from an external source. πŸ˜‰

          • SG

            Frank loaded the ocube with between .75 W and 1.5 W more or less continuously for about 2 hours after unpackaging it. In Shaun’s latest video, ~ 1500 J of energy is discharged into a phone from a single Orbo cell. The Ocube contains x8 Orbo cells. With this data, one can make some estimates of what kind of aggregate “capacitance” the Orbo cells have in the Ocube.

          • I assume the video you refer to is on Steorn’s facebook page – I’ll take a look. However AFAIK, the energy output to a phone always comes from the lithium battery (or a capacitor in our case) that is separated from the Orbo packs by a charge controller. I’m not aware of any evidence that any significant amount of power is stored in the Orbo packs themselves (but could easily be wrong).

            The electrets are in effect just home-made foil capacitors in which the dielectric is replaced by a material that can be made to retain a polarised electrostatic field, foil to foil. I would expect capacitance in the region of a few tens of microfarads, unless some real magic is taking place (in addition to the self-charging, that is).

          • FC

            The latest models they are preparing for production have no Li-ion battery. Only a 5F cap. Where do they store the energy then?

          • In the 5F capacitor?…

            On edit: But this exchange is about the native capacitance of the Orbo packs – at least, that’s what I’m referring to.

          • SG

            Well yes, some of the energy. But this accounts for a fraction of what we have observed. More testing needed of course.

          • SG

            There are some claiming that the two 9 V batteries used as the reference/bias electric field is supplying the energy. Based on our probing and understanding of the circuit, I find such arguments to be implausible.

          • SG

            There is a link to the video above in Frank’s main posting.

          • Worth watching it for while before doing so, I would have thought.

          • I’m not sure that is a great idea. We don’t know for sure that the red wire is a battery connection. Anyway, leaving the A/F bias circuit intact shouldn’t affect how this works.

          • FC

            Ok, Frank. Let’s follow the majority’s vote. πŸ™‚

      • SG

        I’d be reluctant to do this at this point. One change at a time.

      • DrD

        That would be a very good move but only after Shaun’s suggestions completed. Then can use a new resistor and new 9V batteries. I didn’t dare suggest it. It eliminates the “fecked up wiring” including any “fecked up” batteries and resistor.

        • Too late DrD – the deed is done and the bodge applied! Read on…

          • DrD

            Hehe, I’m lost. Yes, I just found the rest of the comments but have the new batteries and resistor been connected across the orbo cell? Do the last measurements represent this set up? Sorry I’ve been away and lost the thread (threads!)

          • Yes, and yes. It looks like a charge is building across the electrets. I don’t think we know yet whether this is being reflected by a growing charge in the output capacitor.

          • DrD

            Thanks — Magic — (or maybe black magic)

          • Blue Energy

            No magic to a charge building up in the electrets. We do have them connected to batteries. But, if that translates to usable output – that will be pretty amazing. I’m hoping against hope.

          • DrD

            Agreed, not magic– but the “new physics”. Exciting times.

          • Frank Acland

            Yes for about an hour now. See the SS for data.

          • DrD

            Thanks Frank.
            Do we have a corrected block diagram?
            The last one by Anon2012_2014 doesn’t seem to work with the SS data. According to the block diagram the new batteries and resistor should be across the orbo (electrets).that is across U2 and L2. U2 is the orbo (positive) L2 is the ground. The other terminals are no longer relevant if the wire between the old batteries was cut.

            Sorry to ask, I may have missed an update to the block diagram?

          • Blue Energy

            I haven’t seen an updated diagram. I don’t think we really know where the L1/L2 taps are. But, it’s pretty clear that Frank cutting the red wire left that sub-circuit cold anyway. The new hardware (two 9V batteries in series with a 1M resistor between them) replaces it. We’re getting an increase in output portion of the circuit which we think indicates that the electrets are charging at a faster rate now. But we don’t know yet whether they are charging faster than could be expected given the input of electricity from the 9v batteries.

          • DrD

            Cheers for that explanation. that’s good news so far. It’s fairly important to know the connections though as we might have the new components still feeding through part of the potentially “fecked wiring” which might inhibit the field.

    • georgehants

      I will be very pleased to see the new unit arrive.
      It is a good job that we don’t have guys marooned in space waiting for a solution to this problem, they would be fossilized by now, I think.

  • ecatworld

    Ok one last picture before the operation. I put some tape between the terminals and along the side to prevent an accidental short
    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipORlbW-l7DzUYbKG0dyCI5lEO00V_h3ntF4ibf3LsG4CmgRld5dtEMUAkM7STN7sQ?key=NjliQTdPY1VQbFNKYkp1MXpxN2xzT191Rko3QkVB

    • ecatworld

      Anyone see anything untoward. The last reading across U1-U2 is 0.85 (yellow meter)

      • Blue Energy

        It looks right to me – as long as you know the correct polarity of the O-Cube patch points.

    • FC

      Are you sure about the polarity?

      • ecatworld

        Well, I assume the left is the positive and right is the negative, since if I measure the opposite way I get a negative reading on my meters

        • Blue Energy

          Well – there you go then.

        • FC

          What about U1 and U2? Same sides for positive and negative?

          • ecatworld

            Right, that’s what I meant, U1 is positive and U2 is negative

          • FC

            Then, what about the battery setup? Same sides for positive/negative?

            Sorry for my insistence. πŸ™‚

          • Blue Energy

            That’s OK. Measure twice, cut once.

          • FC

            πŸ˜€

          • ecatworld

            Yes, the battery set up is aligned correctly.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Good luck. I think you have polarity right. Let us know as soon as you can.

    • Blue Energy

      If a black hole forms – we’ll be alerted by your lack of additional correspondence.

  • Frank Acland

    Ok one last picture before the operation. I put some tape between the terminals and along the side to prevent an accidental short
    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipORlbW-l7DzUYbKG0dyCI5lEO00V_h3ntF4ibf3LsG4CmgRld5dtEMUAkM7STN7sQ?key=NjliQTdPY1VQbFNKYkp1MXpxN2xzT191Rko3QkVB

    • Frank Acland

      Anyone see anything untoward. The last reading across U1-U2 is 0.85 (yellow meter)

      • Blue Energy

        It looks right to me – as long as you know the correct polarity of the O-Cube patch points.

    • FC

      Are you sure about the polarity?

      • Frank Acland

        Well, I assume the left is the positive and right is the negative, since if I measure the opposite way I get a negative reading on my meters

        • Blue Energy

          Well – there you go then.

        • FC

          What about U1 and U2? Same sides for positive and negative?

          • Frank Acland

            Right, that’s what I meant, U1 is positive and U2 is negative

          • FC

            Then, what about the battery setup? Same sides for positive/negative?

            Sorry for my insistence. πŸ™‚

          • Blue Energy

            That’s OK. Measure twice, cut once.

          • FC

            πŸ˜€

          • Frank Acland

            Yes, the battery set up is aligned correctly.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Good luck. I think you have polarity right. Let us know as soon as you can.

    • Blue Energy

      If a black hole forms – we’ll be alerted by your lack of additional correspondence.

  • disqus can’t keep up. I’m not getting many emails from the thread anymore, the comments are coming in so quickly here. might be melting down their mail server.

  • ecatworld

    Sorry to leave you hanging, just been texting with Shaun on Skype. He recommends leaving the batteries on for 12 hours and then checking the voltage.

    • ecatworld

      Putting the clips on now

      • SG

        Bang!

        • ecatworld

          remarkably uneventful actually

          • SG

            πŸ™‚ Couldn’t help making the reference to the pub video. If you haven’t seen it, worth a watch.

          • FC

            Right! I remember now. πŸ˜€

          • ecatworld

            Oh yeah, I remember!

          • FC

            Frank. Could you please make a reading, just to make sure that everything’s alright?

          • Might be worth checking the voltage across U1-U2 with the batteries connected, and repeating at intervals.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Agreed. U1-U2 is all that matters now.

          • FC

            I don’t see any harm in taking voltage readings every now and then.

      • ecatworld
        • Anon2012_2014

          This photo link is 404ing for me. Working for anyone else??
          Frank, please make the photo shareable by the public.

          • Blue Energy

            It wants me to ‘sign in’.

          • SG

            I get a 404 too.

          • ecatworld

            try the link again

          • SG

            Yes, works now. πŸ™‚

  • Frank Acland

    Sorry to leave you hanging, just been texting with Shaun on Skype. He recommends leaving the batteries on for 12 hours and then checking the voltage.

    • Frank Acland

      Putting the clips on now

      • SG

        Bang!

        • Frank Acland

          remarkably uneventful actually

          • SG

            πŸ™‚ Couldn’t help making the reference to the pub video. If you haven’t seen it, worth a watch.

          • FC

            Right! I remember now. πŸ˜€

          • Frank Acland

            Oh yeah, I remember!

          • FC

            Frank. Could you please make a reading, just to make sure that everything’s alright?

          • Might be worth checking the voltage across U1-U2 right away with the batteries connected, and repeating this at intervals for the spreadsheet.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Agreed. U1-U2 is all that matters now.

          • FC

            I don’t see any harm in taking voltage readings every now and then.

    • E-gatto

      Whatever you intend to do, never ever cut the blue wire!!!
      http://youtu.be/nXoPEmh39ls

      • Anon2012_2014

        LOL

  • Anon2012_2014

    Frank, the sooner we can get a voltage reading across U1-U2, the better we will have a baseline for our charging rate and hence power input into the device.

    • Anon2012_2014

      please use the yellow high impedance meter.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Strongly recommended.

    • FC

      Frank has disappeared. I hope he hasn’t had a heart attack. πŸ™‚

      • ecatworld

        No I’m here.

        • FC

          Good. πŸ™‚
          So, what’s the reading?

          • ecatworld

            Hold on, I’ll update the spreadsheet

          • FC

            Thank you, mate.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Or disappeared into the modified space time!
        Watson, come here, I need you!

  • Anon2012_2014

    Frank, the sooner we can get a voltage reading across U1-U2, the better we will have a baseline for our charging rate and hence power input into the device.

    • Anon2012_2014

      please use the yellow high impedance meter.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Strongly recommended.

    • FC

      Frank has disappeared. I hope he hasn’t had a heart attack. πŸ™‚

      • Frank Acland

        No I’m here.

        • FC

          Good. πŸ™‚
          So, what’s the reading?

          • Frank Acland

            Hold on, I’ll update the spreadsheet

          • FC

            Thank you, mate.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Or disappeared into the modified space time!
        Watson, come here, I need you!

  • Frank Acland
    • Anon2012_2014

      Photo works now — waiting to see voltage. Inquiring minds want to know!
      Frank, you have an entire entourage now.

      • Blue Energy

        It wants me to ‘sign in’.

      • SG

        I get a 404 too.

        • Frank Acland

          try the link again

          • SG

            Yes, works now. πŸ™‚

  • Dieter_G

    Hehe, you are slowly becoming an technician in electronics, Frank πŸ™‚

    • ecatworld

      A crash course!

      • FC

        Haha!
        That spreadsheet looks great, Frank! Everything looks fine to me. Now let’s wait 12 hours. πŸ™‚

  • Dieter_G

    Hehe, you are slowly becoming an technician in electronics, Frank πŸ™‚

    I’m curious what is going to happen, now that the “bias-voltage” is applied.
    I’m not very confident, thought.

    • Frank Acland

      A crash course!

      • FC

        Haha!
        That spreadsheet looks great, Frank! Everything looks fine to me. Now let’s wait 12 hours. πŸ™‚

  • ecatworld

    I updated the SS — do you mind if we just measure U1-U2 from here on out, since that’s all that we really care about now?

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0

    • SG

      Yes, I’m fine with that. Although once you receive the new multimeter this week, getting a reading across the 1 Mohm resistor would also be nice to have.

      • Perhaps we’ll be running the 1.5W LEDs on negligible input from the batteries before then.

        • SG

          Perhaps so. Would be nice to find an LED with a load of .3 -> .38 W (to allow for a bit of margin), plug it into the USB port, and let it run for a couple of months. But only after we think the Ocube can handle it. Or better yet, send it to MFMP and let them track the load via HUGnet.

          • Old style filament flashlight bulb?

          • ecatworld

            I am getting some sent to me for that purpose

          • Blue Energy

            I still think it would be a really good idea to log regular (read – like every 30 seconds) readings of the wattage being drawn. That way if there are periods of time when the light shuts off and then turns back on we won’t not know about them. I think this job needs computer monitoring with a database on the backend to store the data. Don’t forget that HUGNet is still available for that. Alternately, Frank could also use a setup like the one I recommended when it first became apparent that a product was actually shipped – using MariaDB database or something for storage. That one wouldn’t be environmentally isolated, the way that HUGNet’s would, but it could still grab useful data on a constant basis – while shopping, showering, sleeping, etc. If Frank needed help with coding or setting up the database I could help with that. But, HUGNet would (presumably) be more professional and foolproof – plus they’d broadcast to the web so we’d all have access to the output.

          • SG

            All good suggestions. I suggest that Frank run a medium-term test in some form that is convincing enough to put most of our doubts to rest. Should probably be done in a Faraday cage. Then, I am supportive of sending the unit to MFMP for broadcasting over HUGNet.

          • Blue Energy

            That seems OK to me. Although, at this point we know that the orbos are shielded from mag interference by thick aluminum. Not a good design decision if it was harvesting changes in EM fields. To me the jury is still out though on temperature, for instance, though.

          • SG

            Yes, agreed that EM field (both electric and magnetic) harvesting is not it. It is clearly not constructed as such, and even if it was, you would not be seeing anything near what we are seeing now. That said, putting it into a Faraday cage and mu metal box would allay any lingering concerns we might have here, and would also go a long way for others who are not as familiar with the device as we.

            Thermal and vibration are still in play, but seem unlikely as well given the high energy and power densities involved.

          • Blue Energy

            I agree that they’re not likely. They would imply a complete breakthrough in environmental energy harvesting. But – we haven’t even demonstrated high energy… yet, at least. So far there’s just a tiny charge building up in some electrets that we are purposely pumping electricity into. I haven’t done the math to determine whether the charge that is accumulating is more than what we’re feeding it.

          • SG

            It would probably make sense to let it do a full “recharge,” which apparently takes about 12 hours (although we are running on assumptions here). Then use the 1.5 W LED bank to drain down to 2.9V via the USB port. The USB port will automatically shut off at that point. Measure the time this takes, and we’ll have a rough estimate of the energy storage capacity (although in reality it would be much higher since we are only draining it down to the 2.9 V level). So, we would have a very conservative estimate of what the capacitance of the unit is as a whole. Then turn to longer term tests with lower wattage (.3 -> .38 W range).

            Edit: at 15-20 micro amperes, the reference / bias voltage circuit is not adding an amount of energy to the system of any significance.

          • DrD

            White LED’s won’t work below 3.5V. In fact 4.5V if they contain a driver chip which they should do. Below their cut off voltage they go high resistance, like a soft diode below breakdown. Use a resistor.

          • SG

            Yes, resistors good. But in my post, you will see that I’m suggesting a quick and dirty test to give us a basic idea of the storage capacity of the unit. Then, we need to find the the right-sized resistor to draw between .3 -> .38 W of power over a longish period of time.

          • Anon2012_2014

            We don’t know how it works on the inside, just measuring the energy storage rate. Some people have hypothesized electret converts heat into vibration and then harvest it there; while another hypothesizes some variation of Maxwells demon applied to heat, while others hypothesize its a VLF energy harvester that penetrates aluminum. If it works, we can go to the next step. I might even order one if it works.

          • Blue Energy

            I think it’s too late to order one. Didn’t they purportedly sell all 750?

          • Esko Lyytinen

            In my opinion most of the small current trough the outside 1 MΞ© resistor goes to increase the voltage of the inside empty battery. which happens very slowly with this small current I would recommend this resistor to be much smaller, maybe as small as 1 kΞ© only, or something like 10 kΞ© could be first tested. But this should be asked from Steorn before actually applying.

          • SG

            We are talking 15-20 *micro* amperes of current. There is little correlation between that and the charge rate we are observing. It might help to take a look at the circuit diagrams lower down in this thread (or watch Shaun’s latest video, linked to above).

          • Esko Lyytinen

            I made my reasoning according to this circuit diagram by Anon2012_2014
            http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/3215/4575/original.jpg
            , which I think makes sense,but may contradict what the Admin wrote: “According to Shaun U1-U2 is measuring the Orbo pack”
            In that diagram, there is in between U1 and U2, mainly the assumed dead battery. Of course also affects the Orbo pack but can not much rise the voltage in this, if not getting the battery also somewhat “recharged” (even though/if not rechargeable).

          • SG

            That circuit diagram has been more or less disavowed by its creator (Anon). I suggest you look at the other ones.

          • DrD

            Could the “correct” (or more correct) diagram be pasted into the excel sheet alongside the data? Only I understood we still don’t know the correct diagram?

          • Esko Lyytinen

            I have seen some others but considered this best to correspond the actual behavior. Maybe I have missed the “more correct” even though have tried to follow all this.
            Yes, I also recommend to paste the “more correct” into the spreadsheet, to be found easily, please.

          • SG

            We don’t have an official circuit diagram–would be nice if we did. Three individuals independently produced a common diagram, which happens to track with Shaun’s latest video as well. Maybe someone can pick their favorite and put it in the spreadsheet, but we are still just speculating. What is clear is that from our probing of the circuit, and review of all of our data points, Anons’ diagram was not matching up. Then again, there are still some huge unknowns even with the diagram that the community believes is the closest.

          • Ged

            Dieter_G/Rob King’s definitely seems the most accurate so far, as the created circuit Steorn had Frank build mimics the design there. It’s in the google doc until an official diagram, or a community agreed on superior one turns up.

          • Sanjeev

            I too vote for Rob’s diagram. OM’s is identical. My own (not posted) is same.
            I posted a screen capture from steorn’s video which shows exactly the same setup.
            So that one is most probable so far.

          • DrD

            Did Frank ask Shaun?
            I suppose all that matters now is to know which contacts go to the orbo and their polarity,

          • Sanjeev

            Don’t know. Probably there was a brief skype chat where he could only get the most essential advice.

          • Blue Energy

            There’s also the content of an email, which is copied in here somewhere. Do a text search for ‘ecatworld’ and you’ll eventually find it.

          • ecatworld

            We did have an exchange over Skype. Fairly brief, but some interesting details that I’ll share when I get some time.

          • SG

            Shaun said this to Frank:

            Hey Frank, it’s pretty simple, connect the positive to the positive of the two terminals you are measuring the voltage across and the
            negative to the negative. And then leave it to see if the cells are regaining their charge.

            No guarantees on this thing, the internal
            wiring has clearly got itself fecked up – anyway the good news is that the tests on the modifications to the cube are still testing very well so we will hopefully be in a position to ship a new one to you soon.

          • Esko Lyytinen

            The diagrams by Rob and OM look reasonable, but are not consistent to what is measured. According to the measurements U2 is connected the positive pole of the assumed battery (about 9 V) BUT to the negative pole of the Orbo power pack. Maybe the batteries were originally switched wrongly in error ?

          • Sanjeev

            Perhaps Frank is ignoring the polarity. But I agree more information is needed.

          • Esko Lyytinen

            Actually comparing the columns U1-U2 , U1-LI, U2-L1, there is some inconsistency in the signs. Probably the U1-U2 should be given as negative. Then I agree to Rob’s and OM’s diagrams.

          • Ged

            I am pretty sure Frank is ignoring polarity. Recall back to when he first started measuring, as well as his video, he was switching his leads on purpose otherwise he was measuring negative voltage.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I am persuaded that OM’s circuit schematic more accurately models the behavior than my deprecated circuit. Only way to know for sure is if Shaun would help us out with a schematic; or if we x-ray the Orbocube.

          • Esko Lyytinen

            I see that this diagram by OM
            http://i.imgur.com/fO7IFw6.jpg?1
            could indeed represent the measurements IF the battery polarity (then both probably) were reversed. U2 to LI and U2 to L2 are measured positive. But then there is the problem that the Orbo power pack polarity would be the reverse to what the batteries would generate into it, if there were not the assumed break. I find this odd ?
            I think this was not the case in the Shaun’s video.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Sorry, that circuit has been deprecated in favor of OM’s circuit. It is essentially the same EXCEPT that U1 and U2 are across the orbo power pack, and that the old circuit in the orbo had an apparent open (broken wire) between the top battery (battery 1) and the orbo power pack input. This may have been broken when Frank pried the back cover off.

            Frank’s experiment only uses the U1 and U2 terminals to send voltage from substitute batteries to the Orbopack. He replaced the batteries and the resistor with his own. The resister is in series and happens to be between the two batteries, but it doesn’t matter if it is between the batteries or at the top or bottom as long as it is in series — it will current limit at the ( (V_9v1 + V_9v2 – V_orbo) /R. Frank is using a 1 Megohm R. The highest current would be if V_orbo was discharged, i.e. 0 volts and you have the entire two batteries driving the resistor. Hence the 15 to 20 uA max. (18V/1e6).

          • Anon2012_2014

            750 orbo cubes. I doubt it. Maybe 20. If our test our positive, they will definitely sell out this production run and have to find a way to make more (and cheaper too). Note that 750*1200 = a lot of Euros.

          • DrD

            The non-linear characteristics of LED’s make them unsuitable for this. They may look impressive but you can be easily mislead. Use a resistor,

          • SG

            Touche. LEDs are good for a rough estimate or initial testing. Resistor-based testing is the way to go for serious tests (particularly medium to long term ones).

    • Anon2012_2014

      U1-U2 is fine. It’s charging about 3x faster but not conclusive yet. I have that it is putting in about 1.6 mW into a 900F load compared to about 0.54 mw before. If it is 900F — no way to know for sure.

      Shaun’s video it recharged FAST after the load was removed. I estimated that the single orbopack cell was doing 40 mW. I’d like to see something like that.

      • Anon2012_2014

        And good work Frank! Thank you.

        • Blue Energy

          Yes! Frank – you did a great job. It’s really hard being the tip of the virtual spear with a bunch of people demanding that you follow their direction *immediately*. Not only did you do the job – you did it with calm and patience.

          • Blue Energy

            Well… except for when you cut the red wire…

          • SG

            Yes, that made me jump out of my seat a little, but I need the exercise, and it turned out fine in the end. We were able to take a few more measurements, remove some uncertainty from the circuit, and then move to the next step.

          • Blue Energy

            It might have actually been the piece that will assure success since it removes the old exciter from the circuit. So, it worked out. But – we didn’t know that at the time. If it had been the other half of the circuit we might have been toast now.

          • ecatworld
          • SG

            Is your timestamp correct?

          • ecatworld

            Yes, it’s 2:33 pm US Central time. One hour after the previous one this time.

          • SG

            I was confused by the prior time stamp–but see that it is corrected now. Thanks.

    • FC

      Thanks for everything, Frank.

      I’m logging off now. It’s been great to share with you all this exciting and (maybe) historical moment. I hadn’t had so much fun in a long time. Cheers.

      • Me neither. We probably both need to get out more.

        On edit: “Me too”

        • Blue Energy

          I didn’t eat or shower until afternoon because I couldn’t bear to step away. I miss sharing moments of discovery with smart people.

          • DrD

            And I watched all morning from the uk and complete silence! Then had to leave and it all happened, missed it all and still trying to catch up.

        • GreenWin

          Just checking in. Anyone care to summarize the experiment and spreadsheet results? Is the Orbo reborn?

          • SG

            Little too soon to claim that the Ocube is reborn, but we were able to make a repair after much deliberation and some consult with Shaun. We have a much better understanding of the circuit (see below thread for excruciating details). Now, we are waiting for a 12 hour “recharge” of the unit, and the testing can then begin in earnest.

          • Blue Energy

            The portion of the circuit which provides the volts to excite the electrets has been re-routed outside the unit to replacement parts. It seems to be working, as the output is increasing. There are still a number of things that could go wrong. We expect for the charge on the electrets to increase a great deal more – and to begin to accelerate as well. If it stops going up, for instance, then we will be left wondering whether the electrets were damaged or if the claim was bogus all along. We’re hoping that doesn’t happen because it would mean that after all this effort we still just don’t know and have no way of finding out whether the claim is true or not. But, on the other hand, if it does continue to rise then we can start to think about the testing we were planning to do on it before it arrived – and that’s pretty exciting.

      • ecatworld

        Thank you, FC — your input has been very valuable to me.

        • OM

          If you want to “shock the domains” then charge 2000uF capacitor to 4V and then discharge it to U1-U2. But this is a bad experiment. πŸ™‚

  • Frank Acland

    I updated the SS — do you mind if we just measure U1-U2 from here on out, since that’s all that we really care about now?

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0

    • SG

      Yes, I’m fine with that. Although once you receive the new multimeter this week, getting a reading across the 1 Mohm resistor would also be nice to have.

      • Perhaps we’ll be running the 1.5W LEDs on negligible input from the batteries before then.

        • SG

          Perhaps so. Would be nice to find an LED with a load of .3 -> .38 W (to allow for a bit of margin), plug it into the USB port, and let it run for a couple of months. But only after we think the Ocube can handle it. Or better yet, send it to MFMP and let them track the load via HUGnet.

          • deleted by author (senile lapse)

          • Frank Acland

            I am getting some sent to me for that purpose

          • Blue Energy

            I still think it would be a really good idea to log regular (read – like every 30 seconds) readings of the wattage being drawn. That way if there are periods of time when the light shuts off and then turns back on we won’t not know about them. I think this job needs computer monitoring with a database on the backend to store the data. Don’t forget that HUGNet is still available for that. Alternately, Frank could also use a setup like the one I recommended when it first became apparent that a product was actually shipped – using MariaDB database or something for storage. That one wouldn’t be environmentally isolated, the way that HUGNet’s would, but it could still grab useful data on a constant basis – while shopping, showering, sleeping, etc. If Frank needed help with coding or setting up the database I could help with that. But, HUGNet would (presumably) be more professional and foolproof – plus they’d broadcast to the web so we’d all have access to the output.

          • SG

            All good suggestions. I suggest that Frank run a medium-term test in some form that is convincing enough to put most of our doubts to rest. Should probably be done in a Faraday cage and maybe even a mu metal box to also block out magnetic fields. Then, I am supportive of sending the unit to MFMP for broadcasting over HUGNet.

          • Blue Energy

            That seems OK to me. Although, at this point we know that the orbos are shielded from mag interference by thick aluminum. Not a good design decision if it was harvesting changes in EM fields. To me the jury is still out though on temperature, for instance, though.

          • SG

            Yes, agreed that EM field (both electric and magnetic) harvesting is not it. It is clearly not constructed as such, and even if it was, you would not be seeing anything near what we are seeing now. That said, putting it into a Faraday cage and/or mu metal box would allay any lingering concerns we might have here, and would also go a long way for others who are not as familiar with the device as we.

            Thermal and vibration are still in play, but seem unlikely as well given the high energy and power densities involved.

          • Blue Energy

            I agree that they’re not likely. They would imply a complete breakthrough in environmental energy harvesting. But – we haven’t even demonstrated high energy… yet, at least. So far there’s just a tiny charge building up in some electrets that we are purposely pumping electricity into. I haven’t done the math to determine whether the charge that is accumulating is more than what we’re feeding it.

          • SG

            It would probably make sense to let it do a full “recharge,” which apparently takes about 12 hours (although we are running on assumptions here). Then use the 1.5 W LED bank to drain down to 2.9V via the USB port. The USB port will automatically shut off at that point. Measure the time this takes, and we’ll have a rough estimate of the energy storage capacity (although in reality it would be much higher since we are only draining it down to the 2.9 V level). So, we would have a very conservative estimate of what the capacitance of the unit is as a whole. Then turn to longer term tests with lower wattage (.3 -> .38 W range).

            Edit: at 15-20 micro amperes, the reference / bias voltage circuit is not adding an amount of energy to the system of any significance.

          • DrD

            White LED’s won’t work below 3.5V. In fact 4.5V if they contain a driver chip which they should do. Below their cut off voltage they go high resistance, like a soft diode below breakdown. Use a resistor.

          • SG

            Yes, resistors good. But in my post, you will see that I’m suggesting a quick and dirty test to give us a basic idea of the storage capacity of the unit. Then, we need to find the right-sized resistor to draw between .3 -> .38 W of power over a longish period of time.

          • Anon2012_2014

            We don’t know how it works on the inside, just measuring the energy storage rate. Some people have hypothesized electret converts heat into vibration and then harvest it there; while another hypothesizes some variation of Maxwells demon applied to heat, while others hypothesize its a VLF energy harvester that penetrates aluminum. If it works, we can go to the next step. I might even order one if it works.

          • Blue Energy

            I think it’s too late to order one. Didn’t they purportedly sell all 750?

          • Anon2012_2014

            750 orbo cubes. I doubt it. Maybe 20. If our test our positive, they will definitely sell out this production run and have to find a way to make more (and cheaper too). Note that 750*1200 = a lot of Euros.

          • DrD

            The non-linear characteristics of LED’s make them unsuitable for this. They may look impressive but you can be easily mislead. Use a resistor,

          • SG

            Touche. LEDs are good for a rough estimate or initial testing. Resistor-based testing is the way to go for serious tests (particularly medium to long term ones).

    • Anon2012_2014

      U1-U2 is fine. It’s charging about 3x faster but not conclusive yet. I have that it is putting in about 1.6 mW into a 900F load compared to about 0.54 mw before. If it is 900F — no way to know for sure.

      Shaun’s video it recharged FAST after the load was removed. I estimated that the single orbopack cell was doing 40 mW. I’d like to see something like that.

      • Anon2012_2014

        And good work Frank! Thank you.

        • Blue Energy

          Yes! Frank – you did a great job. It’s really hard being the tip of the virtual spear with a bunch of people demanding that you follow their direction *immediately*. Not only did you do the job – you did it with calm and patience.

          • Blue Energy

            Well… except for when you cut the red wire…

          • SG

            Yes, that made me jump out of my seat a little, but I need the exercise, and it turned out fine in the end. We were able to take a few more measurements, remove some uncertainty from the circuit, and then move to the next step.

          • Blue Energy

            It might have actually been the piece that will assure success since it removes the old exciter from the circuit. So, it worked out. But – we didn’t know that at the time. If it had been the other half of the circuit we might have been toast now.

          • Frank Acland
          • SG

            Is your timestamp correct?

          • Frank Acland

            Yes, it’s 2:33 pm US Central time. One hour after the previous one this time.

          • SG

            I was confused by the prior time stamp–but see that it is corrected now. Thanks.

    • FC

      Thanks for everything, Frank.

      I’m logging off now. It’s been great to share with you all this exciting and (maybe) historical moment. I hadn’t had so much fun in a long time. Cheers.

      • Me too. We probably both need to get out more.

        • Blue Energy

          I didn’t eat or shower until afternoon because I couldn’t bear to step away. I miss sharing moments of discovery with smart people.

          • DrD

            And I watched all morning from the uk and complete silence! Then had to leave and it all happened, missed it all and still trying to catch up.

        • GreenWin

          Just checking in. Anyone care to summarize the experiment and spreadsheet results? Is the Orbo reborn?

          • SG

            Little too soon to claim that the Ocube is reborn, but we were able to make a repair after much deliberation and some consult with Shaun. We have a much better understanding of the circuit (see below thread for excruciating details). Now, we are waiting for a 12 hour “recharge” of the unit, and the testing can then begin in earnest.

          • Blue Energy

            The portion of the circuit which provides the volts to excite the electrets has been re-routed outside the unit to replacement parts. It seems to be working, as the output is increasing. There are still a number of things that could go wrong. We expect for the charge on the electrets to increase a great deal more – and to begin to accelerate as well. If it stops going up, for instance, then we will be left wondering whether the electrets were damaged or if the claim was bogus all along. We’re hoping that doesn’t happen because it would mean that after all this effort we still just don’t know and have no way of finding out whether the claim is true or not. But, on the other hand, if it does continue to rise then we can start to think about the testing we were planning to do on it before it arrived – and that’s pretty exciting.

      • Frank Acland

        Thank you, FC — your input has been very valuable to me.

  • Anon2012_2014

    LOL

  • ecatworld
    • SG

      3x increase in charge rate and rising.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Square the voltage and multuple by 1/2*C where C is whatever you want, and you can see the increase in joules/sec (watts) going into the capacitor. It is now about 4x higher than the rate before the battery went in. Everything depends on the capacitor size.

        I think the obvious test is to then setup to discharge through a load resistor instead of through the USB charger and measure the voltage across it vs time so we can calculate the capacitor size and hence energy stored and charge rate in watts.

        I would pick a resistor that discharges slowly enough for Frank to be able to take a meaningful measurement every 5 minutes such that the caps are discharged within say 1 hour to the rated low voltage (i.e. 2.9 volts). The multimeter can be left turned on and hooked in during the test, as the load of the multimeter is negligible compared to the load resistor. Let’s say the unit can do 1500 joules, we start at a discharge rate of something like 100 joules per 5 minutes = 100/300 seconds = 0.33 watts. Frank would need a half watt resistor. If he only has quarter watt resistors we could go with a slower discharge, say 0.200 watts. We will have to adjust the algebra for the fact that orbopacks are also recharging during the discharge. If Shaun is correct and the unit can do 1/2 watt, we are going to need bigger resistors to sustain 0.33 watts + 0.5 watts = 0.83 watts. Frank might have to order them. I like this test better than using the LEDs because the current and hence power is a simple function of voltage via Ohms law.

        • DrD

          Sounds like a plan. As for power rating just parallel larger values. Or maybe Frank doesn’t have buckets full.

        • Blue Energy

          You might have trouble getting Frank to sign on for readings every 5 minutes.

          • DrD

            We should build him or donate him a data logger.

          • Blue Energy

            If you read through you’ll see that it has been discussed. Another option is that HUGNet has offered to do long-term testing for us and post the constant results online. They can also environmentally isolate the unit for testing. But, SG would prefer if Frank did enough intermediate tests to convince most of the skeptics among us that there is something there worth testing first. And – that does seem reasonable. Frank has done great work so far (not the least of which is putting up with our demands) – and I think he’s enjoying it.

          • Anon2012_2014

            if he has 2 beers and it only takes 90 minutes, why not?

  • Frank Acland
    • SG

      3x increase in charge rate and rising.

      • uh, am I wrong to be more excited at this point?

        • Blue Energy

          I don’t think so. It at least looks as if we might ultimately get to test this unit for the manufacturers claim after all. That’s pretty exciting.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Square the voltage and multuple by 1/2*C where C is whatever you want, and you can see the increase in joules/sec (watts) going into the capacitor. It is now about 4x higher than the rate before the battery went in. Everything depends on the capacitor size.

        I think the obvious test is to then setup to discharge through a load resistor instead of through the USB charger and measure the voltage across it vs time so we can calculate the capacitor size and hence energy stored and charge rate in watts.

        I would pick a resistor that discharges slowly enough for Frank to be able to take a meaningful measurement every 5 minutes such that the caps are discharged within say 1 hour to the rated low voltage (i.e. 2.9 volts). The multimeter can be left turned on and hooked in during the test, as the load of the multimeter is negligible compared to the load resistor. Let’s say the unit can do 1500 joules, we start at a discharge rate of something like 100 joules per 5 minutes = 100/300 seconds = 0.33 watts. Frank would need a half watt resistor. If he only has quarter watt resistors we could go with a slower discharge, say 0.200 watts. We will have to adjust the algebra for the fact that orbopacks are also recharging during the discharge. If Shaun is correct and the unit can do 1/2 watt, we are going to need bigger resistors to sustain 0.33 watts + 0.5 watts = 0.83 watts. Frank might have to order them. I like this test better than using the LEDs because the current and hence power is a simple function of voltage via Ohms law.

        • DrD

          Sounds like a plan. As for power rating just parallel larger values. Or maybe Frank doesn’t have buckets full.

        • Hhiram

          Given your clear level of expertise, I think we should really crowdfund a unit and send it to you for testing πŸ˜‰

        • Blue Energy

          You might have trouble getting Frank to sign on for readings every 5 minutes.

          • DrD

            We should build him or donate him a data logger.

          • Blue Energy

            If you read through you’ll see that it has been discussed. Another option is that HUGNet has offered to do long-term testing for us and post the constant results online. They can also environmentally isolate the unit for testing. But, SG would prefer if Frank did enough intermediate tests to convince most of the skeptics among us that there is something there worth testing first. And – that does seem reasonable. Frank has done great work so far (not the least of which is putting up with our demands) – and I think he’s enjoying it.

          • Anon2012_2014

            if he has 2 beers and it only takes 90 minutes, why not?

  • ecatworld
    • SG

      A small pullback, although still at a higher rate than at any test point taken prior to adding the bias. Is it possible to display 4 significant digits on the multimeter (like you have with the portapow)?

      • ecatworld

        I will try next time, off for a break — back for the next round of data.

        • Rob King

          By about 11pm it should pass the 1V milestone.

    • Sanjeev

      12.5mV/hour , the charging rate at present.
      Looks like the external bias has worked.
      Did I miss the party? πŸ™‚

      • SG

        Yes, the fix seems to be “working” but with still many unknowns, of course.

        • Sanjeev

          If you believe the last video from steorn, it should start charging at a very high rate once it reaches 3V something. If it doesn’t, then more troubleshooting.
          We should be able to predict the charging trend after a few more readings.

  • Frank Acland
    • SG

      A small pullback, although still at a higher rate than at any test point taken prior to adding the bias. Is it possible to display 4 significant digits on the multimeter (like you have with the portapow)?

      • Frank Acland

        I will try next time, off for a break — back for the next round of data.

        • Rob King

          By about 11pm it should pass the 1V milestone.

    • Sanjeev

      12.5mV/hour , the charging rate at present.
      Looks like the external bias has worked.
      Did I miss the party? πŸ™‚

      • SG

        Yes, the fix seems to be “working” but with still many unknowns, of course.

        • Sanjeev

          If you believe the last video from steorn, it should start charging at a very high rate once it reaches 3V something. If it doesn’t, then more troubleshooting.
          We should be able to predict the charging trend after a few more readings.

  • Esko Lyytinen

    In my opinion most of the small current trough the outside 1 MΞ© resistor goes to increase the voltage of the inside empty battery. which happens very slowly with this small current I would recommend this resistor to be much smaller, maybe as small as 1 kΞ© only, or something like 10 kΞ© could be first tested. But this should be asked from Steorn before actually applying.

    • SG

      We are talking 15-20 *micro* amperes of current. There is little correlation between that and the charge rate we are observing. It might help to take a look at the circuit diagrams lower down in this thread (or watch Shaun’s latest video, linked to above).

      • Esko Lyytinen

        I made my reasoning according to this circuit diagram by Anon2012_2014
        http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/3215/4575/original.jpg
        , which I think makes sense,but may contradict what the Admin wrote: “According to Shaun U1-U2 is measuring the Orbo pack”
        In that diagram, there is in between U1 and U2, mainly the assumed dead battery. Of course also affects the Orbo pack but can not much rise the voltage in this, if not getting the battery also somewhat “recharged” (even though/if not rechargeable).

        • SG

          That circuit diagram has been more or less disavowed by its creator (Anon). I suggest you look at the other ones.

          • DrD

            Could the “correct” (or more correct) diagram be pasted into the excel sheet alongside the data? Only I understood we still don’t know the correct diagram?

          • Esko Lyytinen

            I have seen some others but considered this best to correspond the actual behavior. Maybe I have missed the “more correct” even though have tried to follow all this.
            Yes, I also recommend to paste the “more correct” into the spreadsheet, to be found easily, please.

          • SG

            We don’t have an official circuit diagram–would be nice if we did. Three individuals independently produced a common diagram, which happens to track with Shaun’s latest video as well. Maybe someone can pick their favorite and put it in the spreadsheet, but we are still just speculating. What is clear is that from our probing of the circuit, and review of all of our data points, Anons’ diagram was not matching up. Then again, there are still some huge unknowns even with the diagram that the community believes is the closest.

          • Ged

            Dieter_G/Rob King’s definitely seems the most accurate so far, as the created circuit Steorn had Frank build mimics the design there. It’s in the google doc until an official diagram, or a community agreed on superior one turns up.

          • Sanjeev

            I too vote for Rob’s diagram. OM’s is identical. My own (not posted) is same.
            I posted a screen capture from steorn’s video which shows exactly the same setup.
            So that one is most probable so far.

          • DrD

            Did Frank ask Shaun?
            I suppose all that matters now is to know which contacts go to the orbo and their polarity,

          • Sanjeev

            Don’t know. Probably there was a brief skype chat where he could only get the most essential advice.

          • Blue Energy

            There’s also the content of an email, which is copied in here somewhere. Do a text search for ‘ecatworld’ and you’ll eventually find it.

          • Frank Acland

            We did have an exchange over Skype. Fairly brief, but some interesting details that I’ll share when I get some time.

          • SG

            Shaun said this to Frank:

            Hey Frank, it’s pretty simple, connect the positive to the positive of the two terminals you are measuring the voltage across and the
            negative to the negative. And then leave it to see if the cells are regaining their charge.

            No guarantees on this thing, the internal
            wiring has clearly got itself fecked up – anyway the good news is that the tests on the modifications to the cube are still testing very well so we will hopefully be in a position to ship a new one to you soon.

          • Esko Lyytinen

            The diagrams by Rob and OM look reasonable, but are not consistent to what is measured. According to the measurements U2 is connected the positive pole of the assumed battery (about 9 V) BUT to the negative pole of the Orbo power pack. Maybe the batteries were originally switched wrongly in error ?

          • Sanjeev

            Perhaps Frank is ignoring the polarity. But I agree more information is needed.

          • Esko Lyytinen

            Actually comparing the columns U1-U2 , U1-LI, U2-L1, there is some inconsistency in the signs. Probably the U1-U2 should be given as negative. Then I agree to Rob’s and OM’s diagrams.

          • Ged

            I am pretty sure Frank is ignoring polarity. Recall back to when he first started measuring, as well as his video, he was switching his leads on purpose, otherwise he was measuring negative voltage.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I am persuaded that OM’s circuit schematic more accurately models the behavior than my deprecated circuit. Only way to know for sure is if Shaun would help us out with a schematic; or if we x-ray the Orbocube.

        • Esko Lyytinen

          I see that this diagram by OM
          http://i.imgur.com/fO7IFw6.jpg?1
          could indeed represent the measurements IF the battery polarity (then both probably) were reversed. U2 to LI and U2 to L2 are measured positive. But then there is the problem that the Orbo power pack polarity would be the reverse to what the batteries would generate into it, if there were not the assumed break. I find this odd ?
          I think this was not the case in the Shaun’s video.

        • Anon2012_2014

          Sorry, that circuit has been deprecated in favor of OM’s circuit. It is essentially the same EXCEPT that U1 and U2 are across the orbo power pack, and that the old circuit in the orbo had an apparent open (broken wire) between the top battery (battery 1) and the orbo power pack input. This may have been broken when Frank pried the back cover off.

          Frank’s experiment only uses the U1 and U2 terminals to send voltage from substitute batteries to the Orbopack. He replaced the batteries and the resistor with his own. The resister is in series and happens to be between the two batteries, but it doesn’t matter if it is between the batteries or at the top or bottom as long as it is in series — it will current limit at the ( (V_9v1 + V_9v2 – V_orbo) /R. Frank is using a 1 Megohm R. The highest current would be if V_orbo was discharged, i.e. 0 volts and you have the entire two batteries driving the resistor. Hence the 15 to 20 uA max. (18V/1e6).

  • ecatworld

    Ok, there’s been something of a setback

    I went out for about 45 minutes, came back and found that one of the terminals had been dislodged. I blame one of our cats (I left the door open to the room where the experiment is running) In the process there seems to have been a short, because the voltage has dropped back to around .30.

    However, the rate of charging now seems to have accelerated.

    I will log the rate over a one our period. Taking measurements every 10 minutes.

    • SG

      No worries, stuff happens, especially when it is Orbo-related, and particularly by cats, dogs, and cows. πŸ˜‰

      We’ll get thing back on track and know soon enough.

      • Blue Energy

        “…especially when it is Orbo related…”

        Amen to that!

      • Ged

        Steorn’s trained attack cats have struck again!

        • Sanjeev

          And this cat knew the circuits well enough to cause a short at the right place.
          Steorn has trained their agents very well.
          Next they will send trained rats to cut the multimeter cables.

          • SG

            We ought not suppose they are Steorn-trained agents. After all, I’m sure the trillion-dollar oil interests have very well-trained cats.

          • Sanjeev

            Possible. We are seeing a serious war going on here.
            I suspect some other agents have fiddled with all the three meters to cause different readings to send us off track.

            Or may be steorn orbo has a curse on it.

          • ecatworld

            Ok a heads up: I have to go somewhere this evening, and I will be taking the experiment with me. So after the next reading I’ll disconnect and reassemble probably in about half an hour.

          • Sanjeev

            I’m guessing you are taking it to a lab?

          • DrD

            That’s dedication.

          • DrD

            Maybe they resurrected Schrodinger’s or perhap it was never dead and trained it to go for the Daemon (which I think is really Shaun’s leprechaun).

        • Blue Energy

          Meanwhile, I’m still partial to the Red Lectroids from the eighth dimension explanation.

          • Blue Energy

            Frank – you haven’t seen anyone who looks a lot like John Lithgow in or near your house have you?

          • Blue Energy

            OK, clearly no-one here remembers Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension. Very disappointing, people.

          • DrD

            or
            Leprechauns

    • Zephir

      Never mix E-Cat and Orbo technologies!

    • DrD

      Sorry to hear that Frank,
      I charted the record but can’t seem to paste it. It shows a very slight upturn after adding the new batteries, as expected. Supper time now.

      • ecatworld

        Since the Cat incident, there’s been an acceleration — note the 10 minute intervals over the last half hour.

        • SG

          Yes, very curious. Dipole alignment memory?

          • DrD

            Yes, curious and interesting. Exactly what I was thinking, a memory effect. If so it should slow down again at about 0.9V, I wonder?

          • SG

            That would indeed be interesting. Looking at Shaun’s latest video, the recharge rate of the single Orbo cell is quite high. Probably a similar effect at play given that he had recently discharged the cell.

          • DrD

            And maybe this one will re-charge faster once it’s been reconditioned back up to its working voltage, which might take a few days. IF it’s recoverable at all.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I have found in the past that both cats and dogs like to chew on electrical wiring. I think they like the rubber of the insulation. We had a puppy once who was fond of an old CRT type TV set chassis that was being repaired. We would chase it away, but he got to it anyway while it was plugged in for testing. He chewed it and got zapped, let out a yelp, survived (to old age), and never did that again. All I can say is that your cat is going to like to play with your toy in the lab. It’s their nature to be curious.

      • DrD

        Mice too. I once found a shrivelled mouse with it’s teeth into a 230v mains cable.

  • Frank Acland

    Ok, there’s been something of a setback (maybe or maybe not)

    I went out for about 45 minutes, came back and found that one of the terminals had been dislodged. I blame one of our cats (I left the door open to the room where the experiment is running) In the process there seems to have been a short, because the voltage has dropped back to around .30.

    However, the rate of charging now seems to have accelerated.

    I will log the voltage over a one hour period. Taking measurements every 10 minutes.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0

    • SG

      No worries, stuff happens, especially when it is Orbo-related, and particularly by cats, dogs, and cows. πŸ˜‰

      We’ll get this thing back on track and know soon enough.

      • Blue Energy

        “…especially when it is Orbo related…”

        Amen to that!

      • Ged

        Steorn’s trained attack cats have struck again!

        • Sanjeev

          And this cat knew the circuits well enough to cause a short at the right place.
          Steorn has trained their agents very well.
          Next they will send trained rats to cut the multimeter cables.

          • SG

            We ought not suppose they are Steorn-trained agents. After all, I’m sure the trillion-dollar oil interests have very well-trained cats.

          • Sanjeev

            Possible. We are seeing a serious war going on here.
            I suspect some other agents have fiddled with all the three meters to cause different readings to send us off track.

            Or may be steorn orbo has a curse on it.

          • Frank Acland

            Ok a heads up: I have to go somewhere this evening, and I will be taking the experiment with me. So after the next reading I’ll disconnect and reassemble probably in about half an hour.

          • Sanjeev

            I’m guessing you are taking it to a lab?

          • DrD

            That’s dedication.

          • DrD

            Maybe they resurrected Schrodinger’s or perhap it was never dead and trained it to go for the Daemon (which I think is really Shaun’s leprechaun).

        • Blue Energy

          Meanwhile, I’m still partial to the Red Lectroids from the eighth dimension explanation.

          • Blue Energy

            Frank – you haven’t seen anyone who looks a lot like John Lithgow in or near your house have you?

          • Blue Energy

            OK, clearly no-one here remembers Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension. Very disappointing, people.

          • DrD

            or
            Leprechauns

    • Zephir

      Never mix E-Cat and Orbo technologies!

    • DrD

      Sorry to hear that Frank,
      I charted the record but can’t seem to paste it. It shows a very slight upturn after adding the new batteries, as expected. Supper time now.

      • Frank Acland

        Since the Cat incident, there’s been an acceleration — note the 10 minute intervals over the last half hour.

        • SG

          Yes, very curious. Dipole alignment memory?

          • DrD

            Yes, curious and interesting. Exactly what I was thinking, a memory effect. If so it should slow down again at about 0.9V, I wonder?

          • SG

            That would indeed be interesting. Looking at Shaun’s latest video, the recharge rate of the single Orbo cell is quite high. Probably a similar effect at play given that he had recently discharged the cell.

          • DrD

            And maybe this one will re-charge faster once it’s been reconditioned back up to its working voltage, which might take a few days. IF it’s recoverable at all.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I have found in the past that both cats and dogs like to chew on electrical wiring. I think they like the rubber of the insulation. We had a puppy once who was fond of an old CRT type TV set chassis that was being repaired. We would chase it away, but he got to it anyway while it was plugged in for testing. He chewed it and got zapped, let out a yelp, survived (to old age), and never did that again. All I can say is that your cat is going to like to play with your toy in the lab. It’s their nature to be curious.

      • DrD

        Mice too. I once found a shrivelled mouse with it’s teeth into a 230v mains cable.

  • DrD

    From the spread sheet.

  • ecatworld

    It’s all put back together now. The break was from 17:37-18:09
    I’ll try to do hourly readings through the evening.

    • ecatworld

      I measured after the interruption — it seems to have been charging during the time the battery/resistor circuit was disconnected. See the ss

      • SG

        Because Orbo.

      • Blue Energy

        Wow. OK, that *is* interesting. The old 9v battery sub circuit should be dead. Where could the additional juice be coming from? And it’s not a subtle difference either. It wasn’t plugged in for all that time – right Frank?

        • ecatworld

          Right, between 17:37-18:09 there was nothing external attached to the cube. I took the measurement at 18:14, so there were 5 minutes when the circuit was attached.

          • Blue Energy

            Cue the spooky music…

          • ecatworld

            And remember, the red lead is still clipped

          • SG

            In hindsight, clipping the red wire was the right call (even though some of us were sweating it–I know I was). We could not see the native reference voltage apparatus, and thus, we really had no way of knowing for sure whether a 1Mohm resistor was in series with the two 9 V batteries.

            Now there is no question that it is, because we constructed it, and it is right there external to the unit for all to see. We have taken the prior voltage reference apparatus out of the picture. There is no question that the reference voltage section of the circuit is not responsible (in terms of electrical current) for the recharging. We know dropping an electric field bias across the Orbo cells causes a significant boost. We know that without the electric field bias, it continues to charge. We know without a doubt that certain things happen now and some of the causes. We don’t know the reasons yet. But frankly, neither do Steorn by their own admission.

          • Blue Energy

            We still can’t say for sure that there isn’t another power storage device (battery, cap,…) buried in the resin. But, if there is there is a limit to how long it will continue to produce juice. And it’s very peculiar that it seems to be gaining steam.

          • SG

            Yes, agreed. Longer term testing will be the only way to rule out other possible hidden storage devices.

          • Blue Energy

            It’s the gaining steam part that makes that seem unlikely to me though. I don’t know of any batteries that get stronger as you drain them.

          • Blue Energy

            Actually, I can think of a way that could happen. If the unit moved from a cold room to a hot one – that might make the battery more lively. We know O-Cube has been traveling. Maybe it has warmed up too?

          • Sanjeev

            Can’t say, but the question is why didn’t the buried (if any) source charge it during the last two days, that is before the repair work was done.

          • Blue Energy

            Yup. Well.. something did. A little bit, at least. But, now it’s getting stronger?

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I mean the buried source should have charged it at the same rate (more or less) at which its doing it now.
            Another guess is, its getting the charge from 17V,1M source (after its connected). Its difficult to check this because we do not know the exact capacitance between U1U2. We need a good meter that can measure up to, say,100F.

          • SG

            You won’t be able to measure directly the capacitance with a multimeter without disconnecting the “capacitor” and draining it first, which is impractical in this instance.

            But with the better meter on the way, we will at least be more confident in our voltage measurements. We can determine the total capacitance (or at least get a good estimate) by integrating the power over time (i.e., determining energy) from a “full charge” to something less. I’m thinking that maybe we drain it from a full charge down to the 2.9 V level, run the numbers, and at least get a baseline. It would be a very conservative number.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, a direct measurement can be done after the tests are over.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Measure capacitance by discharging it across a known load with resistance far smaller than the internal load in the charging circuit. In theory, 3 data points of V[t] when discharging across a known resistive load right across the terminals is sufficient to solve for capacitance and the rate of charge of the unit by the battery + orbopacks The rate of charge by the battery is just the voltage difference between the battery stack and orbo divided by the 1 meg resistor.

            I’m tired — do I have a mistake here?

          • Sanjeev

            Sounds like a good idea.

          • SG

            Probably because there was a loose connection and an open circuit.

          • Sanjeev

            Just to clarify, Blue Energy is talking about the possibility of there being a buried/hidden energy source inside the resin, not about the “reference” one.

          • SG

            Ah, thank you for clarifying. You present a good question. I guess there was some charging prior to the repair, but it was quite a small trickle.

          • Sanjeev

            Very interesting.

  • Frank Acland

    It’s all put back together now. The break was from 17:37-18:09
    I’ll try to do hourly readings through the evening.

    • Frank Acland

      I measured after the interruption — it seems to have been charging during the time the battery/resistor circuit was disconnected. See the ss

      • SG

        Because Orbo.

      • Blue Energy

        Wow. OK, that *is* interesting. The old 9v battery sub circuit should be dead. Where could the additional juice be coming from? And it’s not a subtle difference either. It wasn’t plugged in for all that time – right Frank?

        • Frank Acland

          Right, between 17:37-18:09 there was nothing external attached to the cube. I took the measurement at 18:14, so there were 5 minutes when the circuit was attached.

          • Blue Energy

            Cue the spooky music…

          • Frank Acland

            And remember, the red lead is still clipped

          • SG

            In hindsight, clipping the red wire was the right call (even though some of us were sweating it–I know I was). We could not see the native reference voltage apparatus, and thus, we really had no way of knowing for sure whether a 1Mohm resistor was in series with the two 9 V batteries.

            Now there is no question that it is, because we constructed it, and it is right there external to the unit for all to see. We have taken the prior voltage reference apparatus out of the picture. There is no question that the reference voltage section of the circuit is not responsible (in terms of electrical current) for the recharging. We know dropping an electric field bias across the Orbo cells causes a significant boost. We know that without the electric field bias, it continues to charge. We know without a doubt that certain things happen now and some of the causes. We don’t know the reasons yet. But frankly, neither do Steorn by their own admission.

          • Blue Energy

            We still can’t say for sure that there isn’t another power storage device (battery, cap,…) buried in the resin. But, if there is there is a limit to how long it will continue to produce juice. And it’s very peculiar that it seems to be gaining steam.

          • SG

            Yes, agreed. Longer term testing will be the only way to rule out other possible hidden storage devices.

          • Blue Energy

            It’s the gaining steam part that makes that seem unlikely to me though. I don’t know of any batteries that get stronger as you drain them.

          • Blue Energy

            Actually, I can think of a way that could happen. If the unit moved from a cold room to a hot one – that might make the battery more lively. We know O-Cube has been traveling. Maybe it has warmed up too?

          • Sanjeev

            Can’t say, but the question is why didn’t the buried (if any) source charge it during the last two days, that is before the repair work was done.

          • Blue Energy

            Yup. Well.. something did. A little bit, at least. But, now it’s getting stronger?

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, I mean the buried source should have charged it at the same rate (more or less) at which its doing it now.

            Edit: After connecting it to the external battery, one can suspect that its getting the charge from 17V,1M source. Its difficult to check this because we do not know the exact capacitance between U1U2. We need a good meter that can measure up to, say,100F.

          • SG

            You won’t be able to measure directly the capacitance with a multimeter without disconnecting the “capacitor” and draining it first, which is impractical in this instance.

            But with the better meter on the way, we will at least be more confident in our voltage measurements. We can determine the total capacitance (or at least get a good estimate) by integrating the power over time (i.e., determining energy) from a “full charge” to something less. I’m thinking that maybe we drain it from a full charge down to the 2.9 V level, run the numbers, and at least get a baseline. It would be a very conservative number.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, a direct measurement can be done after the tests are over.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Measure capacitance by discharging it across a known load with resistance far smaller than the internal load in the charging circuit. In theory, 3 data points of V[t] when discharging across a known resistive load right across the terminals is sufficient to solve for capacitance and the rate of charge of the unit by the battery + orbopacks The rate of charge by the battery is just the voltage difference between the battery stack and orbo divided by the 1 meg resistor.

            I’m tired — do I have a mistake here?

          • Sanjeev

            Sounds like a good idea.

          • SG

            Probably because there was a loose connection and an open circuit.

          • Sanjeev

            Just to clarify, Blue Energy is talking about the possibility of there being a buried/hidden energy source inside the resin, not about the “reference” one.

          • SG

            Ah, thank you for clarifying. You present a good question. I guess there was some charging prior to the repair, but it was quite a small trickle.

          • Sanjeev

            Very interesting.

  • ecatworld
    • SG

      I’m surprised at the high rate that it continued to charge while disconnected for transport. This latest reading does show a boost though once the bias was reapplied.

      • Ged

        Perhaps this has indeed re-invigorated the cores. More data required.

        • ecatworld

          what do you think about taking the battery/resistor circuit off for a full hour?

          • Blue Energy

            Let’s charge it all the way up and then see what it does.

          • ecatworld

            Ok, however I’ll have to disconnect it when I take it back home later. So I’ll test immediately after reconnecting everything.

          • Ged

            Good idea, that’ll be a great test of its solo activity, again.

          • Blue Energy

            Oh – I didn’t realize you weren’t at home already. Frank – is there a noticeable difference in temperature between this house and your house? Could batteries be warming?

          • ecatworld

            It is probably warmer here than at home. I need to measure temperature wherever I go.

          • Blue Energy

            I think that’s a good idea. If it charges faster when it’s warmer – that will be good for us to know.

    • FC

      Well done, Frank. πŸ™‚

      Glad to see that everything has worked out according to plan (except for the cat incident, which will only cause a few hours delay). It may be a good idea to insulate the outstanding portion of the screws that go into the terminals to prevent future shorts, since they are very close together.

      It’s plain to see now that:

      1. Orbo cells can recharge on their inherent electric field alone (as they were previously doing, anyhow), and
      2. A higher externally applied electric field increases their charge rate.

      Tomorrow, we should be able to start discharging the power pack in order to characterize its capacity. I’m more inclined to do this directly from the terminals by means of a resistor (as using the USB port would bring potential distortions from other elements in that side of the circuit). The community could decide on the appropriate resistor, to give you a relatively short discharge time, but long enough to make good voltage readings all along (as we may have to do some plotting to find the total energy spent).

  • Frank Acland
    • SG

      I’m surprised at the high rate that it continued to charge while disconnected for transport. This latest reading does show a boost though once the bias was reapplied.

      • Ged

        Perhaps this has indeed re-invigorated the cores. More data required.

        • Frank Acland

          what do you think about taking the battery/resistor circuit off for a full hour?

          • Blue Energy

            Let’s charge it all the way up and then see what it does.

          • Frank Acland

            Ok, however I’ll have to disconnect it when I take it back home later. So I’ll test immediately after reconnecting everything.

          • Ged

            Good idea, that’ll be a great test of its solo activity, again.

          • Blue Energy

            Oh – I didn’t realize you weren’t at home already. Frank – is there a noticeable difference in temperature between this house and your house? Could batteries be warming?

          • Frank Acland

            It is probably warmer here than at home. I need to measure temperature wherever I go.

          • Blue Energy

            I think that’s a good idea. If it charges faster when it’s warmer – that will be good for us to know.

    • FC

      Well done, Frank. πŸ™‚

      Glad to see that everything has worked out according to plan (except for the cat incident, which will only cause a few hours delay). It may be a good idea to insulate the outstanding portion of the screws that go into the terminals to prevent future shorts, since they are very close together.

      It’s plain to see now that:

      1. Orbo cells can recharge on their inherent electric field alone (as they were previously doing, anyhow), and
      2. A higher externally applied electric field increases their charge rate.

      Tomorrow, we should be able to start discharging the power pack in order to characterize its capacity. I’m more inclined to do this directly from the terminals by means of a resistor (as using the USB port would bring potential distortions from other elements in that side of the circuit). The community could decide on the appropriate resistor, to give you a relatively short discharge time, but long enough to make good voltage readings all along (as we may have to do some plotting to find the total energy spent).

  • Pweet

    Just looking at the three voltage readings of the three different meters in the above video clip;-
    I take it the high readings, around 17.5 volts, are across the two batteries, and the low readings are taken across the two batteries in series with the 1 megohm resistor, (brown black green it should be; the color is a bit indistinct in the vid.)

    Form these readings you can see how much the meters distort the actual voltage due to the internal impedance of the meter loading up the circuit you are trying to measure.
    If the internal impedance of each meter was infinite the two voltage reading would always be the same.
    But the internal impedances of the meters is finite and varies with the meter type.
    So what are they ,. roughly?

    As expected, the analogue meter completely overloads the circuit you are measuring, hence what should be a 17.5 volt reading shows as a 0.4 volt reading. It presents a load of around 25kohms to the 1 megohm circuit. All readings are grossly distorted. You can only use this meter on the low impedance circuits such as the USB output voltage or across any of the batteries or ultracaps if fitted.

    The portapower meter also loads up the 1 megohm source impedance to the point where the 17.6 volt source reads only 1.5 volts. This represents an internal impedance in the meter of around 85kohms.
    That still makes it unusable except for the low impedance circuits such as the USB output and battery voltages.

    The yellow meter shows a voltage of 8.77 volts which indicates the meter is of a similar internal impedance to the voltage source, that is, 1 megohm.
    That makes it sort of usable so long as you DOUBLE the voltage readings taken on that circuit while you know there is a source impedance of 1 megohm, which you do because you fiitted it and we can see it there.
    This only apples to this exact circuit. We can’t apply this to any other circuit readings unless we reliably know the source impedance, and we don’t.
    It also wont apply IF the orbo can backfeed into the circuit and thus lower the overall circuit impedance.
    However, since it was said the batteries supply a reference voltage, that would be inconsistent with any backfeed into the battery.
    All indications from the Steorn video was that the Orbo loads up the circuit, not feeds back into it.

    An oscilloscope typically presents an input impedance of 1 megohm, similar to the yellow meter.
    That should be marked next to the probe connection.
    If used with a X 10 probe they present a load of 10 megohms. That is a function of the probe, not the oscilloscope.
    Some of the better digital meters also have higher input impedances, but only depend on that if it specifically stated.

    • SG

      We have a higher quality multimeter with a stated input impedance of 10Mohm on its way to Frank as we speak. He should have it within the next couple of days or so.

      • Pweet

        That should do the job pretty well.
        At the low voltages presently being measured, even the yellow meter will give a reasonable accurate measurement because the Orbo is apparently loading up the battery / resistor circuit to the point where the meter impedance is only small proportion of the total load. It’s probably reading only around 10% low. ( a guess, I haven;t bothered to work it out)
        If the voltage ever gets up towards the 7 or 8 volt readings then the meter impedance becomes much more significant and the real reading will be closer to double.
        The 10Megohm impedance meter will solve all that.

    • Anon2012_2014

      My old $39 radioshack meter has a book input impedance specification of 10 M Ohm. However, now that we know the yellow meter has 1 M Ohm and the Portapow had 100K ohm, we can use the yellow meter as long as it is across a big capacitor for only a short time.

  • Pweet

    Just looking at the three voltage readings of the three different meters in the above video clip;-
    I take it the high readings, around 17.5 volts, are across the two batteries, and the low readings are taken across the two batteries in series with the 1 megohm resistor, (brown black green it should be; the color is a bit indistinct in the vid.)

    Form these readings you can see how much the meters distort the actual voltage due to the internal impedance of the meter loading up the circuit you are trying to measure.
    If the internal impedance of each meter was infinite the two voltage reading would always be the same.
    But the internal impedances of the meters is finite and varies with the meter type.
    So what are they ,. roughly?

    As expected, the analogue meter completely overloads the circuit you are measuring, hence what should be a 17.5 volt reading shows as a 0.4 volt reading. It presents a load of around 25kohms to the 1 megohm circuit. All readings are grossly distorted. You can only use this meter on the low impedance circuits such as the USB output voltage or across any of the batteries or ultracaps if fitted.

    The portapower meter also loads up the 1 megohm source impedance to the point where the 17.6 volt source reads only 1.5 volts. This represents an internal impedance in the meter of around 85kohms.
    That still makes it unusable except for the low impedance circuits such as the USB output and battery voltages.

    The yellow meter shows a voltage of 8.77 volts which indicates the meter is of a similar internal impedance to the voltage source, that is, 1 megohm.
    That makes it sort of usable so long as you DOUBLE the voltage readings taken on that circuit while you know there is a source impedance of 1 megohm, which you do because you fiitted it and we can see it there.
    This only apples to this exact circuit. We can’t apply this to any other circuit readings unless we reliably know the source impedance, and we don’t.
    It also wont apply IF the orbo can backfeed into the circuit and thus lower the overall circuit impedance.
    However, since it was said the batteries supply a reference voltage, that would be inconsistent with any backfeed into the battery.
    All indications from the Steorn video was that the Orbo loads up the circuit, not feeds back into it.

    An oscilloscope typically presents an input impedance of 1 megohm, similar to the yellow meter.
    That should be marked next to the probe connection.
    If used with a X 10 probe they present a load of 10 megohms. That is a function of the probe, not the oscilloscope.
    Some of the better digital meters also have higher input impedances, but only depend on that if it specifically stated.

    • Pweet

      I better add that all the above takes the source impedance of the batteries is effectively zero compared to the 1 megohm resistor. That is a fair assumption unless a battery is flat, and it’s not.
      I also assumed the connections add up to a total of zero ohms, which they do not, which is why the voltages move around a bit. I took the average voltages.

    • SG

      We have a higher quality multimeter with a stated input impedance of 10Mohm on its way to Frank as we speak. He should have it within the next couple of days or so.

      • Pweet

        That should do the job pretty well.
        At the low voltages presently being measured, even the yellow meter will give a reasonable accurate measurement because the Orbo is apparently loading up the battery / resistor circuit to the point where the meter impedance is only small proportion of the total load. It’s probably reading only around 10% low. ( a guess, I haven;t bothered to work it out)
        If the voltage ever gets up towards the 7 or 8 volt readings then the meter impedance becomes much more significant and the real reading will be closer to double.
        The 10Megohm impedance meter will solve all that.

    • Anon2012_2014

      My old $39 radioshack meter has a book input impedance specification of 10 M Ohm. However, now that we know the yellow meter has 1 M Ohm and the Portapow had 100K ohm, we can use the yellow meter as long as it is across a big capacitor for only a short time.

  • OM

    We can roughly calculate capacitance.
    q=C*U=I*t
    C=I*t/(U2-U1)
    for example:
    at 18:14 U1=0.48
    at 19:17 U2=0.51
    We can use 17V and 1M to calculate “I”, because U1 and U2 are relatively small compared with 17V.
    “t” is about 1 hour.

    C = 17/1000000*3600/(0.51-0.48)
    C = 2

    So, 2F capacitor should be charged by our batteries as fast as we are seeing now.

    • FC

      Quite intriguing, isn’t it? And it appears that these particular Orbo cells aren’t yet working at full charging capacity (pun unintended).

      I can’t wait to corroborate those numbers with some empirical results.

      • OM

        I will not attempt to draw conclusions yet.
        The voltage increases without batteries too.

        • FC

          That’s its main feature, according to Steorn. The voltage reference from the batteries is only a stimulus.

          Or do you mean that there may still be a hidden source of energy beneath the resin? That possibility will have to be tested over the coming weeks by extracting enough energy out of the ocube. I’ll be satisfied with 100 Wh.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Yes, that would be a good benchmark. We should not forget that there are two 9V batteries on board (each of them could provide about 5Wh, I suppose). Even if Steorn says that there is a 1 MOhm resistor between them – in reality the wiring could be more complex, and possibly allow withdrawing a significant current. In any case, the device should be dissected after the tests have been finished.

          • FC

            Anon2012_2014 once estimated that the weight of components inside the ocube’s shell is around 350 grams (including the resin). And the most advanced batteries in the market have an energy density of 300 Wh per kg (see attached chart). Therefore, it seems fair to assume that if the ocube can output 100 Wh, then it’s not a battery (and that includes the two 9V batteries). πŸ™‚

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Agreed, provided that the β€žifβ€œ will work out. With a much lower output dissection would be unavoidable, I think.

          • FC

            Agreed.

          • Sanjeev

            Seems to be easily falsifiable or provable then.

            If it supplies 1 W for 100 hours we have something.
            I will personally get excited if it does this for 50 hours as I know the weight is mostly of resin and other stuff.
            BUT the weight needs some confirmation. Can you tell us how was it measured? (My numbers don’t add up)

          • Frank Acland

            I measured it with the bottom plate removed on some digital kitchen scales.

          • Sanjeev

            That would be the weight of resin+skull without bottom plate.
            We are interested in the weight of resin only (with embbeded stuff). I was wondering how that figure of 350g came.

          • Frank Acland

            Oh, ok — that wasn’t mine. Someone must have calculated it somehow.

          • Sanjeev

            No problem. Then perhaps its safer to take the whole weight (without bottom plate) for energy density.

      • Anon2012_2014

        They might accelerate after they get proper bias voltage on them if the electret alignment hypothesis is true.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I believe your calculation only holds approximately true if the current going into the capacitor, I, is that coming out of the battery through the resistor. If however additional current is being supplied by the orbopacks, then your calculation is low.

      Also, I believe the use of U1 and U2 for the voltage V across the capacitor is correct, but it is not correct to say that U2 = 0.51. That is actually U2-U1 measure at 19:17.

      The relationship C = q/V is always true. I believe the relationship q = I*t is only true if I is the average current going into the capacitor. In most cases, the current I will drop as the capacitor charges according to an exponential curve.

      I don’t think we know , as the amount supplied by the battery at <17 uA is much too small to charge up orbopacks unless they have a tiny capacitance. At 5F, and a constant 17 uA, it would take q of .03*5=.15 Coulombs to increase the charge by 0.03 volts, and that would take 0.15/17e-6 = 8823 seconds = 2.45 hours. It's charging 2.5x faster than that, so either orbopacks are contributing current, or the capacitor is small and orbo packs do nothing to charge.

      I think we have to arrange a discharge test through a load resistor to determine how much charge and capacitance is in the orbopacks, at a rate at least 10x the rate of charge,

      • SG

        Agreed. We have made some assumptions about aggregate capacitance based on 1) Frank’s experience of loading the Ocube with ~ .75W to ~1.50 W more or less continuously for two hours shortly after unpacking it, and 2) Shaun’s latest video. We need to run our own discharge test (after it is “fully” charged), and come up with our own value for C. Then we can better understand the recharge.

    • DNI

      If the two internal batteries is working and connected through 1 Mohm as they are supposed to. Then that would give us twice the current above and a capacitance of 4F. This would also explain why the charging is about half the speed when the external batteries is disconnected.

      • Sanjeev

        He cut the wire, now they are obviously not connected. Risky but end of speculations !

      • SG

        Based on our observations, there is much more than 4 F capacitance overall. OM was doing more of a thought experiment. But, a definitive discharge test from a “fully” charged cube is in order, which will firm up our understanding.

  • OM

    Of course, this is not the actual capacity.

    But the result surprised me.
    It turns out that 2F capacitor could be charged pretty fast with such a small current.
    And 2F is comparable with 5F.

  • OM

    Of course, this is not the actual capacity.

    But the result surprised me.
    It turns out that 2F capacitor could be charged pretty fast with such a small current.
    And 2F is comparable with 5F.

  • joe

    Just to clarify with the folks here….has anyone speculated as to what the Orbo “power pack” is? My personal guess is that it is some kind of solid state variant….

    • Sanjeev

      Its an electret. I recommend digging into previous blog posts and videos etc for more info.

  • FC

    Quite intriguing, isn’t it? And it appears that these particular Orbo cells aren’t yet working at full charging capacity (pun unintended).

    I can’t wait to corroborate those numbers with some empirical results.

    • OM

      I will not attempt to draw conclusions yet.
      The voltage increases without batteries too.

      • FC

        That’s its main feature, according to Steorn. The voltage reference from the batteries is only a stimulus.

        Or do you mean that there may still be a hidden source of energy beneath the resin? That possibility will have to be tested over the coming weeks by extracting enough energy out of the ocube. I’ll be satisfied with 100 Wh.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Yes, that would be a good benchmark. We should not forget that there are two 9V batteries on board (each of them could provide about 5Wh, I suppose). Even if Steorn says that there is a 1 MOhm resistor between them – in reality the wiring could be more complex, and possibly allow withdrawing a significant current. In any case, the device should be dissected after the tests have been finished.

          • FC

            Anon2012_2014 once estimated that the weight of components inside the ocube’s shell is around 350 grams (including the resin). And the most advanced batteries in the market have an energy density of 300 Wh per kg (see attached chart). Therefore, it seems fair to assume that if the ocube can output 100 Wh, then it’s not a battery (and that includes the two 9V batteries). πŸ™‚

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Agreed, provided that the β€žifβ€œ will work out. With a much lower output dissection would be unavoidable, I think.

          • FC

            Agreed.

          • Sanjeev

            Seems to be easily falsifiable or provable then.

            If it supplies 1 W for 100 hours we have something.
            I will personally get excited if it does this for 50 hours as I know the weight is mostly of resin and other stuff.
            BUT the weight needs some confirmation. Can you tell us how was it measured? (My numbers don’t add up)

          • ecatworld

            I measured it with the bottom plate removed on some digital kitchen scales.

          • Sanjeev

            That would be the weight of resin+skull without bottom plate.
            We are interested in the weight of resin only (with embbeded stuff). I was wondering how that figure of 350g came.

          • ecatworld

            Oh, ok — that wasn’t mine. Someone must have calculated it somehow.

          • Sanjeev

            No problem. Then perhaps its safer to take the whole weight (without bottom plate) for energy density.

    • Anon2012_2014

      They might accelerate after they get proper bias voltage on them if the electret alignment hypothesis is true.

  • ecatworld

    I just disassembled the circuit after the last round of measurements, and will put it back together when I get home. I’ll take readings before I reattach everything.

    • Sanjeev

      A plot of readings so far.
      (attached)

      • SG

        Interesting shift from exponential to what appears to be a linear increase.

        • FC

          “the rise is very non linear, it goes through a BH curve type of shape”

          Shaun dixit.

          • SG

            But our curve doesn’t correspond to a BH curve. Wait, maybe it does if you “flip” a typical BH curve putting H on the y-axis and B on the x-axis. Then you could curve fit ours to that, and predict that there will be a somewhat flat charging period for the next little while, with a “hockey stick” exponential type curve toward the end of the charging cycle.

            I think Anon might have mentioned somewhere above that he thought the inherent electric field (within the Orbo cell itself) will become self-reinforcing at some point and boost the charge rate. Time will tell.

        • Sanjeev

          Ya, its unlike a typical capacitor charge curve (which is exponential and flattens out in the end).

      • SG

        Would it be possible to add the latest data point and then put vertical shaded areas for the time periods in which the unit was disassembled (i.e., reference / bias voltage removed)? Or is that asking too much. πŸ˜‰

        • Sanjeev

          Sure. Give me a few minutes.

        • Sanjeev

          Here it is:
          It keeps charging while disconnected, but the rate is slightly slower.
          (attached)

          • FC

            Good job. πŸ™‚

          • SG

            Thanks Sanjeev. Nice to put a visual to this.

      • DrD

        How do you paste these?
        I tried to paste the same chart from “day 1” even coverted to a “.jpg” but it wouldn’t take it.

        • Sanjeev

          There is a tiny picture icon below the text box where you type the comments. Just click on it an select your picture (jpg or png). It will be attached to your post.

          • DrD

            Thanks a lot Sanjeev — silly me, well it was bedtime. I might try again when I get home tonight assuming I saved a copy. It’s essentially the same as yours but goes back to zero hour “day 1”
            “A picture says 1000 words”

          • Sanjeev

            Now the 5F cap is in scene. This makes things a bit complicated.
            I found a nice online calculator to compute charging time/power etc etc. This link should take you there and also load the numbers for you.
            http://mustcalculate.com/electronics/capacitorchargeanddischarge.php?vfrom=0.3872&vto=0.7615&vs=17&c=5&r=1M
            As you can see it should take 31 hours to charge 5F ALONE via 1M resistor if you use the read voltages. However we see it do that in 17 hours approx.
            I’m playing with it now.

  • Frank Acland

    I just disassembled the circuit after the last round of measurements, and will put it back together when I get home. I’ll take readings before I reattach everything.

    • Sanjeev

      A plot of readings so far.
      (attached)

      • SG

        Interesting shift from exponential to what appears to be a linear increase.

        • FC

          “the rise is very non linear, it goes through a BH curve type of shape”

          Shaun dixit.

          • SG

            But our curve doesn’t correspond to a BH curve. Wait, maybe it does if you “flip” a typical BH curve putting H on the y-axis and B on the x-axis. Then you could curve fit ours to that, and predict that there will be a somewhat flat charging period for the next little while, with a “hockey stick” exponential type curve toward the end of the charging cycle.

            I think Anon might have mentioned somewhere above that he thought the inherent electric field (within the Orbo cell itself) will become self-reinforcing at some point and boost the charge rate. Time will tell.

        • Sanjeev

          Ya, its unlike a typical capacitor charge curve (which is exponential and flattens out in the end).

      • SG

        Would it be possible to add the latest data point and then put vertical shaded areas for the time periods in which the unit was disassembled (i.e., reference / bias voltage removed)? Or is that asking too much. πŸ˜‰

        • Sanjeev

          Sure. Give me a few minutes.

        • Sanjeev

          Here it is:
          It keeps charging while disconnected, but the rate is slightly slower.
          (attached)

          • FC

            Good job. πŸ™‚

          • SG

            Thanks Sanjeev. Nice to put a visual to this.

      • DrD

        How do you paste these?
        I tried to paste the same chart from “day 1” even coverted to a “.jpg” but it wouldn’t take it.

        • Sanjeev

          There is a tiny picture icon below the text box where you type the comments. Just click on it an select your picture (jpg or png). It will be attached to your post.

          • DrD

            Thanks a lot Sanjeev — silly me, well it was bedtime. I might try again when I get home tonight assuming I saved a copy. It’s essentially the same as yours but goes back to zero hour “day 1”
            “A picture says 1000 words”

  • Anon2012_2014

    Schrodinger’s Cat seems to have shorted out the capacitors between 15:26 and 16:37. Bad kitty!

    Frank had to start again. If Orbopacks behaves as Shaun suggests, it should start accelerating after getting a field voltage ~2.9 volts where he cuts off the USB charger circuit. If we were running 900F of capacitance, it was putting out a steady 2.8 mW between 13:26 and 15:26. I suspect it does better than that, but need to wait for data.

    • SG

      An alternate theory that we tossed around is some kind of dipole alignment memory. We noticed that after the cat shorted the circuit, the recharge rate was significantly higher, as if the dipoles had some “stickiness” to them. It even recharged at a high rate during a time period in which Frank disconnected the reference / bias voltage. This seems to comport with the high recharge rate observed in Shaun’s video shortly after discharging the single cell Orbo.

      Under this theory, might we actually see a slow down in the recharge rate once we reach ~ 0.9 V? That is about where we were before right prior to the feline disturbance.

      • FC

        That would make sense. As the orbo pack’s inherent electric field becomes stronger, the sum of the stimulii (internal+external) becomes greater, and the charge rate becomes faster.

        But I suspect the capacity is greater than 900F. According to Shaun’s latest video, one orbo cell can output around 1,500 J with a voltage drop from a little over 5 V to 2.9 V. So its total capacity may be closer to 3,600 J (1 Wh, or 288 F at 5 V). And since there are 8 cells in the ocube, the total capacity may be in the order of 8 Wh or more (2,300 F at 5 V).

        This means that the power pack in an ocube can probably store enough energy to charge a smartphone in one sitting (even taking into account that the voltage upconverter cuts off at 1.6 V), once again, according to Shaun’s latest video.

        • SG

          2300 F in those relatively small x8 Orbo cells seems unfathomable. Even 960 F does (as I had estimated earlier). But they do seem to act more like capacitors than chemical based storage. For me, that is the biggest mystery.

          • FC

            For me too. πŸ™‚

          • SG

            What strikes me as well is Shaun’s almost nonchalantness when mentioning that “oh, by the way, the Orbo units have some capacitance as well” sort of gig. You don’t say? Maybe he is just so used to being around them.

          • FC

            True.

            And we don’t even know how orbo cells charge from an external load, as regular capacitors. We could be surprised to find that they match capacitors in this area as well.

            Maybe Steorn should consider selling orbo cells as supercapacitors. πŸ™‚

          • FC

            Sorry, I meant external source, not load.

          • ecatworld

            I posted some comment from Shaun on the post above.

          • FC

            Thank you, Frank. That last email is extraordinarily interesting, as it gives a gist of the internal working of the cells.

          • georgehants

            Any news on the arrival of the new and tested Orbo so that ECW can simply check the output for the next five years and hopefully confirm an output in excess of all the people who will suggest (hopefully wrongly) that the resin is a chemical producer of electricity etc.
            If over all the years we had businesses repairing TV’s and HI-FI etc. one of the engineers had taken this long to work out such a simple circuit he would have been sacked a week ago, first for not waiting for a circuit diagram and then for not understanding the readings.
            Very glad though that everybody is enjoying the game.

          • ecatworld

            Just that they seem to be happy with the testing of the new setup — no Li batteries in the next batch apparently.

          • georgehants

            Ha. Admin I have not seen so much interest and fun on these pages before.
            Poor old Mr.Rossi has definitely taken a back seat.

          • Who?

          • ecatworld

            Things change when there are real products to work with.

          • Sanjeev

            All the usual suspects are here on chat.

            Except I can’t see any of the MFMP guys. I’m hoping that Bob is trying to source an OCube for their own experiments while remaining backstage. I’m sure Hunts group will love to have one.

          • georgehants

            Sanjeev, maybe those guys are very busy on their Cold Fusion work.
            One can I think be sure that many very “professional” organizations are waiting to get one of these onto their billions of pounds worth of test equipment to discover (if genuine) it’s magic properties and then claim they knew about it all the time, just as will happen with Cold Fusion.

          • Easy enough to test, in due course.

          • FC

            Agreed. I’m just not sure that we would have Steorn’s support for doing that. πŸ™‚

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think the benchmarking orbo cube has capacitors. I think the device on Frank’s desk might have a Li-I battery. Capacitors are easier for us to benchmark with.

          • FC

            We should always assume the correctness of Steorn’s statements, so that we can test their validity. IMHO, testing alternative hypotheses is an inefficient approach.

          • Anon2012_2014

            FC,

            “We should always assume the correctness of Steorn’s statements, so that we can test their validity. IMHO, testing alternative hypotheses is an inefficient approach.”

            I was responding to SG’s “2300 F in those relatively small x8 Orbo cells seems unfathomable. Even 960 F does (as I had estimated earlier). But they do seem to act more like capacitors than chemical based storage. For me, that is the biggest mystery.”

            Didn’t Steorn say he sent us an ocube without a Li-I battery? And didn’t he say that the specification for 1 orbopack (out of 8) was 1500J at 5V to 2.9V. Wouldn’t that be 180F/orbopack, which looking at the video, was about 1 CM in diameter and 6 CM long, or about 5cc? EDLC supercapacitors have an energy density of up to 10 Wh/liter, so 5cc gives us .005*10Wh = .05 Wh = 180 joules. I guess it could be a capacitor, but it doesn’t leave a lot of space for the Orbopack’s charger.

            I’m in favor of the simplest test that we can devise using the orbocube we have. How are you suggesting to measure the capacitance in it, and how are you suggesting to prove there is no battery (and hence throwing the test based on capacitance off? If it is a capacitor or a battery, I think a discharge into a know resistive load is the best. What am I missing in this kind of test protocol?

          • FC

            “Didn’t Steorn say he sent us an ocube without a Li-I battery?”

            No. They said it has a 5F instead.

            “it doesn’t leave a lot of space for the Orbopack’s charger”

            There is no orbopack charger. The orbo cells are both the charger and the storage device.

            “How are you suggesting to measure the capacitance in it?”

            As I’ve previously said today, by partially discharging them through a resistor.

            “How are you suggesting to prove there os no battery?”

            By the extracting 100Wh from the Ocube during a series of charge-discharge cycles.

            So you see, we’re basically in agreement. We just need to make sure that we start from the right information. πŸ™‚

          • Anon2012_2014

            How does Steorn get 1500J from 5F?

            1500=.5*5*v^2

            V=25 volts

            This doesn’t seem right as the voltage on the Orbopack in the video was 5V.

            My gut feel says that the device may work (I’m now about 50/50) and I will need a hypothesis to explain it.

          • FC

            “How does Steorn get 1500J from 5F?”

            In the video setup there’s no 5F capacitor. The energy come straight from the charger/storage device (i.e. the orbo cell).

            In Frank’s ocube, they don’t get it from the capacitor, but through the capacitor, which is only a buffer between the variable voltage orbo cells and the desired 5 V output.

          • Anon2012_2014

            So in your model the Orbo cell acts like an energy storage device as well as a charger, putting out most of the 1500J per cell in a short period of time, maybe 5 to 30 minutes. That is a lot of power per Orbo cell, i.e. 1 to 5 watts per cell during the discharge time. I think it could be measured with the resistor regardless.

            Last question, why then do some units need a Li-I battery if the Orbo powerpack cells can put out all this power so fast? I presumed Li-I batteries were acting as an accumulator so that the cellphone could get charged in a reasonable time (about 1 to 2 hours). This model of Ocube doesn’t seem to need them in your model of its behavior.

          • FC

            In response to your first paragraph, yes, that’s what orbo cells appear to do based on the information provided by Steorn. Therefore, you may consider orbo cells to be extremely high capacitance supercapacitors that have the ability to recharge themselves (albeit much more slowly than using an external source). This is a very easy model to test.

            In response to your second paragraph, I suppose that initially Steorn devised ocubes as a two-step charging device. In other words, the orbo cells would recharge themselves while the battery was charging something else. But apparently, Steorn has ditched that deisgn in their latest test models and, most probably, the final production model won’t have a Li-ion battery, but a 5F cap instead, like Frank’s ocube.

          • “There is no orbopack charger. The orbo cells are both the charger and the storage device.”

            A simple way of checking this might be to test continuity between test points U1/U2 and the end contacts of the USB port. Two continuity pairs would confirm.

          • FC

            Yes, that may be true.

            But personally, I couldn’t care less about the “electronics” side of the ocube, which is currently isolated from the orbo power pack anyway by the voltage converter, that needs at least a 1.6V input from the power pack to start dumping a charge into the 5F capacitor. And even when the power pack’s voltage rises above the converter’s trigger point, there is only so much energy that can be stored in a 5F capacitor. Once the capacitor is full, there will be no current passing through the converter either, unless we plug something in the USB port.

            I think we are much better off just ignoring the electronics side of the ocube and focusing on U1&U2 as if it was a black box. And then, it doesn’t really matter whether there is a charger and a separate storage device or just one component doing both things at a time. Although from Shaun’s videos it’s obvious what Steorn is telling us: there is only one device.

          • I was misunderstanding your words anyway. I assumed that you meant that there was no longer any voltage converter chip and the orbos were just feeding the 5F capacitor directly, as additional storage.

            As you say, hopefully we can learn quite a lot by observing the behaviour of the orbo units on their own, but at some point we will want to look at what is available at the USB port, and so will need to be clear about the downstream circuitry in order to understand results.

          • FC

            I see. Sorry about the misunderstanding. πŸ™‚

            Regarding the USB port, I totally agree. It’s just that right now, at least to me, what is imperative is testing the orbo power pack in isolation. But of course, once it is characterized and if Steorn’s claims are validated, the next step would be to test its functionality as a mobile charger. Although I suspect that Frank may receive another ocube soon and we may be able to run both tests in parallel.
            πŸ™‚

          • Our little cups are running over! As you seem to have a very good understanding of what is probably happening, it might be a good idea if you could propose a test schedule for Admin, to include testing USB output and direct capacitor storage in the electrets (and anything else you can think of!).

          • DrD

            Try a capacitance meter. Or calculate the impedance with an ac signal. (assuming you have the equipment of course).

          • That seems logical, at least for starters. A capacitance meter could be tried, but as several commenters (including myself) have noted, simple capacitance seems entirely inadequate to explain the observed apparent storage capacity, and some other principle – maybe something entirely new – must be at work.

          • FC

            Electrochemical processes inside the orbo cell would prevent it from having a life of several decades (as per Steorn’s statements).

          • Yes I imagine it would.

          • FC

            It’s quite a puzzle, isn’t it? πŸ™‚

          • FC

            “I think the device on Frank’s desk might have a Li-I battery”

            This is an alternative hypothesys inconsistent with Steorn’s statements.

          • SG

            It’s also inconsistent with our observations.

          • FC

            True. I forgot to mention that. πŸ™‚

  • Anon2012_2014

    Schrodinger’s Cat seems to have shorted out the capacitors between 15:26 and 16:37. Bad kitty!

    Frank had to start again. If Orbopacks behaves as Shaun suggests, it should start accelerating after getting a field voltage ~2.9 volts where he cuts off the USB charger circuit. If we were running 900F of capacitance, it was putting out a steady 2.8 mW between 13:26 and 15:26. I suspect it does better than that, but need to wait for data.

    • SG

      An alternate theory that we tossed around is some kind of dipole alignment memory. We noticed that after the cat shorted the circuit, the recharge rate was significantly higher, as if the dipoles had some “stickiness” to them. It even recharged at a high rate during a time period in which Frank disconnected the reference / bias voltage. This seems to comport with the high recharge rate observed in Shaun’s video shortly after discharging the single cell Orbo.

      Under this theory, might we actually see a slow down in the recharge rate once we reach ~ 0.9 V? That is about where we were before right prior to the feline disturbance.

      • FC

        That would make sense. As the orbo pack’s inherent electric field becomes stronger, the sum of the stimulii (internal+external) becomes greater, and the charge rate becomes faster.

        But I suspect the capacity is greater than 900F. According to Shaun’s latest video, one orbo cell can output around 1,500 J with a voltage drop from a little over 5 V to 2.9 V. So its total capacity may be closer to 3,600 J (1 Wh, or 288 F at 5 V). And since there are 8 cells in the ocube, the total capacity may be in the order of 8 Wh or more (2,300 F at 5 V).

        This means that the power pack in an ocube can probably store enough energy to charge a smartphone in one sitting (even taking into account that the voltage upconverter cuts off at 1.6 V), once again, according to Shaun’s latest video.

        • SG

          2300 F in those relatively small x8 Orbo cells seems unfathomable. Even 960 F does (as I had estimated earlier). But they do seem to act more like capacitors than chemical based storage. For me, that is the biggest mystery.

          • FC

            For me too. πŸ™‚

          • SG

            What strikes me as well is Shaun’s almost nonchalantness when mentioning that “oh, by the way, the Orbo units have some capacitance as well” sort of gig. You don’t say? Maybe he is just so used to being around them.

          • FC

            True.

            And we don’t even know how orbo cells charge from an external load, as regular capacitors. We could be surprised to find that they match capacitors in this area as well.

            Maybe Steorn should consider selling orbo cells as supercapacitors. πŸ™‚

          • FC

            Sorry, I meant external source, not load.

          • Frank Acland

            I posted some comment from Shaun on the post above.

          • FC

            Thank you, Frank. That last email is extraordinarily interesting, as it gives a gist of the internal working of the cells.

          • Easy enough to test, in due course.

          • FC

            Agreed. I’m just not sure that we would have Steorn’s support for doing that. πŸ™‚

          • Anon2012_2014

            I think the benchmarking orbo cube has capacitors. I think the device on Frank’s desk might have a Li-I battery. Capacitors are easier for us to benchmark with.

          • FC

            We should always assume the correctness of Steorn’s statements, so that we can test their validity. IMHO, testing alternative hypotheses is an inefficient approach.

          • Anon2012_2014

            FC,

            “We should always assume the correctness of Steorn’s statements, so that we can test their validity. IMHO, testing alternative hypotheses is an inefficient approach.”

            I was responding to SG’s “2300 F in those relatively small x8 Orbo cells seems unfathomable. Even 960 F does (as I had estimated earlier). But they do seem to act more like capacitors than chemical based storage. For me, that is the biggest mystery.”

            Didn’t Steorn say he sent us an ocube without a Li-I battery? And didn’t he say that the specification for 1 orbopack (out of 8) was 1500J at 5V to 2.9V. Wouldn’t that be 180F/orbopack, which looking at the video, was about 1 CM in diameter and 6 CM long, or about 5cc? EDLC supercapacitors have an energy density of up to 10 Wh/liter, so 5cc gives us .005*10Wh = .05 Wh = 180 joules. I guess it could be a capacitor, but it doesn’t leave a lot of space for the Orbopack’s charger.

            I’m in favor of the simplest test that we can devise using the orbocube we have. How are you suggesting to measure the capacitance in it, and how are you suggesting to prove there is no battery (and hence throwing the test based on capacitance off? If it is a capacitor or a battery, I think a discharge into a know resistive load is the best. What am I missing in this kind of test protocol?

          • FC

            “Didn’t Steorn say he sent us an ocube without a Li-I battery?”

            No. They said it has a 5F instead.

            “it doesn’t leave a lot of space for the Orbopack’s charger”

            There is no orbopack charger. The orbo cells are both the charger and the storage device.

            “How are you suggesting to measure the capacitance in it?”

            As I’ve previously said today, by partially discharging them through a resistor.

            “How are you suggesting to prove there os no battery?”

            By the extracting 100Wh from the Ocube during a series of charge-discharge cycles.

            So you see, we’re basically in agreement. We just need to make sure that we start from the right information. πŸ™‚

          • Anon2012_2014

            How does Steorn get 1500J from 5F?

            1500=.5*5*v^2

            V=25 volts

            This doesn’t seem right as the voltage on the Orbopack in the video was 5V.

            My gut feel says that the device may work (I’m now about 50/50) and I will need a hypothesis to explain it.

          • FC

            “How does Steorn get 1500J from 5F?”

            In the video setup there’s no 5F capacitor. The energy come straight from the charger/storage device (i.e. the orbo cell).

            In Frank’s ocube, they don’t get it from the capacitor, but through the capacitor, which is only a buffer between the variable voltage orbo cells and the desired 5 V output.

          • Anon2012_2014

            So in your model the Orbo cell acts like an energy storage device as well as a charger, putting out most of the 1500J per cell in a short period of time, maybe 5 to 30 minutes. That is a lot of power per Orbo cell, i.e. 1 to 5 watts per cell during the discharge time. I think it could be measured with the resistor regardless.

            Last question, why then do some units need a Li-I battery if the Orbo powerpack cells can put out all this power so fast? I presumed Li-I batteries were acting as an accumulator so that the cellphone could get charged in a reasonable time (about 1 to 2 hours). This model of Ocube doesn’t seem to need them in your model of its behavior.

          • FC

            In response to your first paragraph, yes, that’s what orbo cells appear to do based on the information provided by Steorn. Therefore, you may consider orbo cells to be extremely high capacitance supercapacitors that have the ability to recharge themselves (albeit much more slowly than using an external source). This is a very easy model to test.

            In response to your second paragraph, I suppose that initially Steorn devised ocubes as a two-step charging device. In other words, the orbo cells would recharge themselves while the battery was charging something else. But apparently, Steorn has ditched that deisgn in their latest test models and, most probably, the final production model won’t have a Li-ion battery, but a 5F cap instead, like Frank’s ocube.

          • “There is no orbopack charger. The orbo cells are both the charger and the storage device.”

            A simple way of checking this might be to test continuity between test points U1/U2 and the end contacts of the USB port. Two continuity pairs would confirm no IC (if I am correctly understanding your suggestion).

          • FC

            Yes, that may be true.

            But personally, I couldn’t care less about the “electronics” side of the ocube, which is currently isolated from the orbo power pack anyway by the voltage converter, that needs at least a 1.6V input from the power pack to start dumping a charge into the 5F capacitor. And even when the power pack’s voltage rises above the converter’s trigger point, there is only so much energy that can be stored in a 5F capacitor. Once the capacitor is full, there will be no current passing through the converter either, unless we plug something in the USB port.

            I think we are much better off just ignoring the electronics side of the ocube and focusing on U1&U2 as if it was a black box. And then, it doesn’t really matter whether there is a charger and a separate storage device or just one component doing both things at a time. Although from Shaun’s videos it’s obvious what Steorn is telling us: there is only one device.

          • I was misunderstanding your words anyway. I assumed that you meant that there was no longer any voltage converter chip and the orbos were just feeding the 5F capacitor directly, as additional storage.

            As you say, hopefully we can learn quite a lot by observing the behaviour of the orbo units on their own, but at some point we will want to look at what is available at the USB port, and so will need to be clear about the downstream circuitry in order to fully understand results.

          • FC

            I see. Sorry about the misunderstanding. πŸ™‚

            Regarding the USB port, I totally agree. It’s just that right now, at least to me, what is imperative is testing the orbo power pack in isolation. But of course, once it is characterized and if Steorn’s claims are validated, the next step would be to test its functionality as a mobile charger. Although I suspect that Frank may receive another ocube soon and we may be able to run both tests in parallel.
            πŸ™‚

          • Our little cups are running over! As you seem to have a very good understanding of the variables, it might be very useful if you could propose a test schedule for Admin, to include testing USB output and direct capacitor storage in the electrets (and anything else you can think of!).

            On edit: Obviously others may want to chip in with suggestions once some kind of draft proposal is available.

          • DrD

            Try a capacitance meter. Or calculate the impedance with an ac signal. (assuming you have the equipment of course).
            It might not be pure capacitance. If so it may give a different answer to the charge/discharge method.
            Also, I’m not sure if its appreciated but a tiny capacitance on the input of a transistor can behave as if it’s a capacitor 100’s or 1000’s bigger on the ouput. i think this won’t explain Shaun’s example though, as the charge still needs to be stored somewhere (else).

          • That seems logical, at least for starters, and could be done quite quickly and simply once the initial charge rate levels off. Voltage would need to be monitored as well, and the voltmeter drain added to the energy calculation. A capacitance meter could be tried as suggested below if Admin can borrow one.

            As several commenters (including myself) have noted, it’s difficult (actually, impossible) to explain capacitance in the order of Farads if the electrets only act as simple ‘electrolytic’ capacitors. The only remaining conventional explanation seems to be that they also have the ability to store charge electrochemically like so-called pseudocapacitors, but that area of speculation is way beyond my pay grade.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudocapacitor

          • FC

            Electrochemical processes inside the orbo cell would prevent it from having a life of several decades (as per Steorn’s statements).

          • Yes I imagine it would. Some ‘new physics’ then, in addition to the self charging, if we take Shaun’s claim at face value.

          • FC

            It’s quite a puzzle, isn’t it? πŸ™‚

          • FC

            “I think the device on Frank’s desk might have a Li-I battery”

            This is an alternative hypothesys inconsistent with Steorn’s statements.

          • SG

            It’s also inconsistent with our observations.

          • FC

            True. I forgot to mention that. πŸ™‚

  • ecatworld

    Reassembled the circuit at 22:51 See the spreadsheet for charge during time of disconnection.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0

    • FC

      I think it’s well within previously observed ranges (both pre-surgery and post surgery).

  • Frank Acland

    Reassembled the circuit at 22:51 See the spreadsheet for charge during time of disconnection.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0

    • FC

      I think it’s well within previously observed ranges (both pre-surgery and post surgery).

  • Anon2012_2014

    I believe your calculation only holds approximately true if the current going into the capacitor, I, is that coming out of the battery through the resistor. If however additional current is being supplied by the orbopacks, then your calculation is low.

    Also, I believe the use of U1 and U2 for the voltage V across the capacitor is correct, but it is not correct to say that U2 = 0.51. That is actually U2-U1 measure at 19:17.

    The relationship C = q/V is always true. I believe the relationship q = I*t is only true if I is the average current going into the capacitor. In most cases, the current I will drop as the capacitor charges according to an exponential curve.

    I don’t think we know , as the amount supplied by the battery at <17 uA is much too small to charge up orbopacks unless they have a tiny capacitance. At 5F, and a constant 17 uA, it would take q of .03*5=.15 Coulombs to increase the charge by 0.03 volts, and that would take 0.15/17e-6 = 8823 seconds = 2.45 hours. It's charging 2.5x faster than that, so either orbopacks are contributing current, or the capacitor is small and orbo packs do nothing to charge.

    I think we have to arrange a discharge test through a load resistor to determine how much charge and capacitance is in the orbopacks, at a rate at least 10x the rate of charge,

    • SG

      Agreed. We have made some assumptions about aggregate capacitance based on 1) Frank’s experience of loading the Ocube with ~ .75W to ~1.50 W more or less continuously for two hours open unpacking it, and 2) Shaun’s latest video. We need to run our own discharge test (after it is “fully” charged), and come up with our own value for C. Then we can better understand the recharge.

  • ecatworld

    off to bed now. Ill update again in the a.m.

    • FC

      Great job today, Frank.
      Cheers.

  • Frank Acland

    off to bed now. Ill update again in the a.m.

    • FC

      Great job today, Frank.
      Cheers.

  • Olof

    Frank,take your o-cube device to the nearest airport. There you can do a complete scan to the device with the x-ray scanner. I think that Shaun has not told all of the content and the wiring diagram of the device.

  • Dave

    I can’t fathom why Steorn hasn’t just FedEx’d a “working” unit (unpotted!), rather than expecting the first customer to have to experiment to get it to work. They do have some lying around that actually work, right?

  • Matt

    Reading all this, I get the feeling that it’s pretty much useless. What is supposed to happen? Making a working OCube out of a broken one? I would take my Dremel and dig for the Powerpacks to see what they are. The Cube isn’t working anyway, there is supposedly another one on the way, why not just get the blue suckers out of the black goo?

    • Zephir

      The OrboCube is indeed broken, but we can still analyze it and get a new info about its internals. I do appreciate Frank, he is willing to do so for us. The extraction of Powerpacks may not be so easy task even with Dremel. It’s like the preparation of trilobite fossil from rock (which is sticky and jelly in addition). https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4a/06/4c/4a064c2719e432311bae3c016c94a456.jpg

      • FC

        Nice comparison. πŸ™‚

  • damn_right _man

    So, it is my time again.

    1) First I really have to admit: Frank, thank You for all Your effort, time and enthusiasm, by which You want
    to share Your experience with all of us, I really appreciate that and I wish You all the best and a lot
    of fun with that, and hopefully the next ocube won’t be like this one.

    2) Your cat made a short ? What the hell are You doing there, are You kidding us? Lock the f…g testlab,
    please.

    3) You need to buy two batteries to simulate those li-ion battery, which they did not sent to You in
    this first, incomplete ocube? If so, what are You RIGHT NOW able to tell us about the charging-
    capabilities of the ocube ? Does it charge the batteries, if they are uncharged after being
    used for let’s say, two smartphones ?

    4) The idea with the x-ray at the airport seems to be a nice trick… I would try it and ask for the pics, or
    take a pic from the pics on the screen.

  • damn_right _man

    So, it is my time again.

    1) First I really have to admit: Frank, thank You for all Your effort, time and enthusiasm, by which You want
    to share Your experience with all of us, I really appreciate that and I wish You all the best and a lot
    of fun with that, and hopefully the next ocube won’t be like this one.

    2) Your cat made a short ? What the hell are You doing there, are You kidding us? Lock the f…g testlab,
    please.

    3) You need to buy two batteries to simulate those li-ion battery, which they did not sent to You in
    this first, incomplete ocube? If so, what are You RIGHT NOW able to tell us about the charging-
    capabilities of the ocube ? Does it charge the batteries, if they are uncharged after being
    used for let’s say, two smartphones ?

    4) The idea with the x-ray at the airport seems to be a nice trick… I would try it and ask for the pics, or
    take a pic from the pics on the screen.

  • Zephir

    The OrboCube is indeed broken, but we can still analyze it and get a new info about its internals. I do appreciate Frank, he is willing to do so for us.

    • FC

      Nice comparison. πŸ™‚

  • ecatworld

    Good morning everyone. I took the first readings and put them in the spreadsheet. Also I posted above a Q&A with Shaun McCarthy from yesterday. Rob King was in the chat and the questions are his.

    • FC

      Good morning, Frank.

      Looks like the charge rate is slowing down a bit.

      Thanks for the Q&A with Shaun. If I understand it correctly, we’re going to have to modify our circuit diagram, since he now says that the 5F cap is on the orbo side of the voltage controller (which doesn’t make much sense to me, BTW).

      • Just additional energy storage then, it seems, with no role in output regulation.

        • FC

          Or maybe they just want to feed a more stable input into the charge controller than would come straight out of the power pack itself.

          But anyway, I’m afraid that this is all irrelevant given the problem that we have with the orbo cells’ charge being so low.

          • Yes, it seems that it may have been damaged after all, possibly due to extended lack of external voltage across the electrets.

          • FC

            Agreed. That and the accidental short. Tough luck. Let’s hope Frank gets a new ocube soon.

          • ecatworld

            Shaun said it takes time for the domains to realign, so we just have to wait to see if that happens.

          • Could we enquire whether 18V is actually the optimum value for the process of re-alignment/polarisation? (or does it just reflect the maximum number of 9V batteries they could fit into the box).

          • Sanjeev

            Very good question. If it can be fixed by applying, say, 100V across the orbo cells for say 10 mins, then it is doable.

          • ecatworld

            The answer is “probably, but you could also damage the cells (short across the materials)”

          • FC

            And what about charging them externally? Can this be done?

          • Sanjeev

            So that experiment can be postponed till after postmortem (which is taking out 8 orbos from the resin, if needed at all).

    • DrD

      Much appreciate your dedication Frank and all the other contributors. Intrigueing isn’t it.
      You know what:
      We’re learning much more than if they’d sent you the correct working unit!
      “This cloud has a silver lining”
      We also owe Shaun a vote of thanks for being so honest and helpful.
      Maybe it’s a bit early yet but I have a good feeling.
      So thanks to all for this journey.
      Dave

      • FC

        We’re also having a lot more fun than if we were just watching Frank doing charge/discharge cycles, don’t you think? πŸ™‚

  • Frank Acland

    Good morning everyone. I took the first readings and put them in the spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit#gid=0

    Also I posted above a Q&A with Shaun McCarthy from yesterday. Rob King was in the chat and the questions are his.

    • FC

      Good morning, Frank.

      Looks like the charge rate is slowing down a bit.

      Thanks for the Q&A with Shaun. If I understand it correctly, we’re going to have to modify our circuit diagram, since he now says that the 5F cap is on the orbo side of the voltage controller (which doesn’t make much sense to me, BTW).

      • Just additional energy storage then, it seems, with no role in output regulation.

        • FC

          Or maybe they just want to feed a more stable input into the charge controller than would come straight out of the power pack itself.

          But anyway, I’m afraid that this is all irrelevant given the problem that we have with the orbo cells’ charge being so low.

          • Yes, it seems that the units may have been damaged after all, possibly due to extended lack of external voltage across the electrets. Perhaps the dilithium crystals will recover in time.

          • FC

            Agreed. That and the accidental short. Tough luck. Let’s hope Frank gets a new ocube soon.

          • No food for Mog this morning. He/she must learn their lesson.

          • Frank Acland

            Shaun said it takes time for the domains to realign, so we just have to wait to see if that happens.

          • Could we enquire whether 18V is actually the optimum value for the process of domain re-alignment/polarisation? (or does it just reflect the maximum number of 9V batteries they could fit into the box).

          • Sanjeev

            Very good question. If it can be fixed by applying, say, 100V across the orbo cells for say 10 mins, then it is doable.

          • Frank Acland

            The answer is “probably, but you could also damage the cells (short across the materials)”

          • FC

            And what about charging them externally? Can this be done?

          • Sanjeev

            So that experiment can be postponed till after postmortem (which is taking out 8 orbos from the resin, if needed at all).

    • DrD

      Much appreciate your dedication Frank and all the other contributors. Intriguing isn’t it.
      You know what:
      We’re learning much more than if they’d sent you the correct working unit!
      “This cloud has a silver lining”
      We also owe Shaun a vote of thanks for being so honest and helpful.
      Maybe it’s a bit early yet but I have a good feeling.
      So thanks to all for this journey.
      Dave

      • FC

        We’re also having a lot more fun than if we were just watching Frank doing charge/discharge cycles, don’t you think? πŸ™‚

  • Sanjeev

    Its an electret. I recommend digging into previous blog posts and videos etc for more info.

  • Sanjeev

    He cut the wire, now they are obviously not connected. Risky but end of speculations !

  • Andreas Moraitis

    20 kJ (5.556 Wh) is approximately the energy content of a single 9V alkali-manganese battery. So the storage capability does not exceed the β€˜chemical limit’. Anyway, it would be interesting to learn more about the mechanism behind it.

    • FC

      I find 5.6 Wh relatively low for the charging needs of most smartphones on the market today. Maybe it’s a compromise, as time is running out for Steorn to deliver a working product.

    • georgehants

      My question below, if it is dumb, please tell me.
      ———
      Would isolating the stack from all connections and components and just read any raw output not give the required answer.
      Just like reading a trickle charger or battery.
      Does the stack produce an output is the only question of interest.

      • SG

        Can you rephrase your question? Not sure I understand what you are getting at.

        • georgehants

          SG, sorry but I cannot rephrase it any clearer, maybe my mind is to simplistic. ha.

          • SG

            I guess your use of the term stack was throwing me there a bit. πŸ˜‰

            Oh, you mean what Shaun did in his video? Yes, that would be useful to try ourselves, were it not for all the resin.

            I’m not sure that a single isolated Orbo cell would tell us too much, but certainly it would give us some information.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    20 kJ (5.556 Wh) is approximately the energy content of a single 9V alkali-manganese battery. So the storage capability does not exceed the β€˜chemical limit’. Anyway, it would be interesting to learn more about the mechanism behind it.

    • FC

      I find 5.6 Wh relatively low for the charging needs of most smartphones on the market today. Maybe it’s a compromise, as time is running out for Steorn to deliver a working product.

  • PT

    There is no harm in completing the current test and record what happens with the 18V reference.

    In the end, however, it will prove very little if anything, as also hinted at by a few below. Only x-raying, opening up or a new O-cube, preferably unpotted, will enable any real progress.

    A shipment of the wrong product, and faulty at that, is a terrible misstake at a new product launch, almost a patholigical error. A company usually adresses such a problem with the utmost urgency and effort. I can only concur with Dave’s comment below.

  • Another quiet time, so another schematic, based on Shaun’s comments:

    http://www.health-answers.co.uk/orbo4.png

    • Sanjeev

      I guess you need to change lowerupper.

      • You’re right – I’ll change it in a moment.

    • ecatworld

      Feedback from Shaun on you diagram, Agaricus:
      “in that version of the cube there are 5 boards – but other than that it seems pretty accurate, however, its pretty obvious that the cube that frank has is not actually wired in that way”

      • OK, thanks Frank. # IC’s updated to 5. The schematic is not much use though if SM thinks ours may be connected differently, although perhaps we’ll be able to figure it out from tests. I wonder which part he’s unsure about?

        • ecatworld

          I think he means that it seems broken inside.

          • Sanjeev

            ya, fecked up is the technical term he prefers πŸ˜€
            BTW, charging has slowed down significantly since morning.

          • ecatworld

            I had it disassembled for about an hour. Had to take it with me again.

          • Sanjeev

            I see. Makes sense now.
            Its back to the normal speed now. Slightly slower than yesterday.

  • Another quiet moment, so yet another schematic, based on Shaun’s comments:

    http://www.health-answers.co.uk/orbo4.png

    • Sanjeev

      I guess you need to change lowerupper.

      • You’re right – I’ll change it in a moment.

        On edit: done

    • Frank Acland

      Feedback from Shaun on you diagram, Agaricus:
      “in that version of the cube there are 5 boards – but other than that it seems pretty accurate, however, its pretty obvious that the cube that frank has is not actually wired in that way”

      • OK, thanks Frank. # IC’s updated to 5 (if that is what he meant). The schematic is not much use though if SM thinks ours may be connected differently, although perhaps we’ll be able to figure it out from tests. I wonder which part he’s unsure about?

        • Frank Acland

          I think he means that it seems broken inside.

          • Sanjeev

            ya, fecked up is the technical term he prefers πŸ˜€
            BTW, charging has slowed down significantly since morning.

          • Frank Acland

            I had it disassembled for about an hour. Had to take it with me again.

          • Sanjeev

            I see. Makes sense now.
            Its back to the normal speed now. Slightly slower than yesterday.

  • Rob King

    Revised diagram:

    • The common line you assume may be more likely than my multiple-parallel arrangement for the ICs.

      • Rob King

        I will clarify this with SM, but it was an assumption on my part.

    • DrD

      I’m not sure that the USB board contains another boost coverter. My understanding of what he said was that the “chrg ctrl” (of wich there are multiple) takes an input of > 1.6V (later corrected to >3.2V) and outputs 5V to the USB (board). I may be wrong as it can be taken both ways.
      The new versions won’t have the CAP (nor a Li)

      • Rob King

        Check the Skype transscript, SM did correct himself and say it did boost the voltage, besides – there are too many components on the board to be a simple USB socket and on/off logic. You then have to ask, why 2 boards to boost voltage to 5V – makes no sense.

        • DrD

          yes, I saw that and agree it does read that way but I wondered if he actualy meant the controler board. As you say, why a 2 stage boost, especially as he needs multiple in parallel to handle the power. It’s a minor issue anyway and I think we get the idea.

          • The PCB board is probably just an off-the-shelf component, perhaps bulk purchased before incorporating a charge control board. The boost function certainly seems redundant, although it’s hard to see why some other recipients of O-cubes were getting overcharged lithium batteries if they had two layers of protection against this.

          • DrD

            Right, yes he did say that so that makes sense.

  • Rob King

    Revised diagram:

    • The common line you assume may be more likely than my multiple-parallel arrangement for the ICs.

      • Rob King

        I will clarify this with SM, but it was an assumption on my part.

    • DrD

      I’m not sure that the USB board contains another boost coverter. My understanding of what he said was that the “chrg ctrl” (of wich there are multiple) takes an input of > 1.6V (later corrected to >3.2V) and outputs 5V to the USB (board). I may be wrong as it can be taken both ways.
      The new versions won’t have the CAP (nor a Li)

      • Rob King

        Check the Skype transscript, SM did correct himself and say it did boost the voltage, besides – there are too many components on the board to be a simple USB socket and on/off logic. You then have to ask, why 2 boards to boost voltage to 5V – makes no sense.

        • DrD

          yes, I saw that and agree it does read that way but I wondered if he actualy meant the controler board. As you say, why a 2 stage boost, especially as he needs multiple in parallel to handle the power. It’s a minor issue anyway and I think we get the idea.

          • The USB board is probably just an off-the-shelf component, perhaps bulk purchased before incorporating a separate charge control board. The boost function certainly seems redundant, although it’s hard to see why some other recipients of O-cubes were getting overcharged lithium batteries if they had two layers of protection against this (unless the battery was upstream of the IC board like the capacitor – which would make no sense at all).

          • DrD

            Right, yes he did say that so that makes sense.

  • Gerard McEk

    I hope the output voltage of the Orbo electret exceeds the 18 volt of the batteries, otherwise they are constantly drained. Is it known if a diode exists between the upper 9V cell and the Orbo electret? If the Orbo electret generates a voltage in excess of 18 V, than that may be needed. If the Orbo electret or U1-U2 voltage is much lower than 18 V than the batteries are constantly drained, and the Orbo will stop supplying energy in the not too far future.

    • SG

      The native output voltage of the Orbo cells is 1.6 V, we are told. The 18V batteries will not be fully drained for about 5 years because of the in-series 1 Mohm resistor.

      • Gerard McEk

        Negative? You mean the difference in output voltage of the Orbo Cell is and the two batteries 1.6 V? (so 16.4 V?)
        A standard Duracell 9 V battery has a capacity of about 500 mAh. If the Orbo has no voltage, or is often fully drained than the two batteries may last 3 years. See http://www.powerstream.com/9V-Alkaline-tests.htm. But if the Orbo is 16.4 Volt, that the batteries may last a lot longer.

  • Gerard McEk

    I hope the output voltage of the Orbo electret exceeds the 18 volt of the batteries, otherwise they are constantly drained. Is it known if a diode exists between the upper 9V cell and the Orbo electret? If the Orbo electret generates a voltage in excess of 18 V, than that may be needed. If the Orbo electret or U1-U2 voltage is much lower than 18 V than the batteries are constantly drained, and the Orbo will stop supplying energy in the not too far future.

    • SG

      The native output voltage of the Orbo cells is 1.6 V, we are told. The 18V batteries will not be fully drained for about 5 years because of the in-series 1 Mohm resistor.

      Correction: the charge controller chip upconverts from 1.6 V and up, to 5V. The cell itself can be charged higher than 1.6 V, but we can’t account for that charging by merely pointing to the 15-20 micro amperes of current from the voltage reference / bias circuit–that is too small to account for the rate of charge we are observing even with our “broken” Ocube.

      • Gerard McEk

        Negative? You mean the difference in output voltage of the Orbo Cell is and the two batteries 1.6 V? (so 16.4 V?)
        A standard Duracell 9 V battery has a capacity of about 500 mAh. If the Orbo has no voltage, or is often fully drained than the two batteries may last 3 years. See http://www.powerstream.com/9V-Alkaline-tests.htm. But if the Orbo is 16.4 Volt, that the batteries may last a lot longer.

  • georgehants

    Any news on the arrival of the new and tested Orbo so that ECW can simply check the output for the next five years and hopefully confirm an output in excess of all the people who will suggest (hopefully wrongly) that the resin is a chemical producer of electricity etc.
    If over all the years we had businesses repairing TV’s and HI-FI etc. one of the engineers had taken this long to work out such a simple circuit he would have been sacked a week ago, first for not waiting for a circuit diagram and then for not understanding the readings.
    Would also suggest that the new unit is connected to a computer that can give constant 24/7 graph readings of the output.
    Very glad though that everybody is enjoying the game.

    • Frank Acland

      Just that they seem to be happy with the testing of the new setup — no Li batteries in the next batch apparently.

      • georgehants

        Ha. Admin I have not seen so much interest and fun on these pages before.
        Poor old Mr.Rossi has definitely taken a back seat.

        • Who?

        • Frank Acland

          Things change when there are real products to work with.

    • Sanjeev

      All the usual suspects are here on chat.

      Except I can’t see any of the MFMP guys. I’m hoping that Bob is trying to source an OCube for their own experiments while remaining backstage. I’m sure Hunts group will love to have one.

      • georgehants

        Sanjeev, maybe those guys are very busy on their Cold Fusion work.
        One can I think be sure that many very “professional” organizations are waiting to get one of these onto their billions of pounds worth of test equipment to discover (if genuine) it’s magic properties and then claim they knew about it all the time, just as will happen with Cold Fusion.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    How about quick loading the capacitor up to the 1.6 V threshold? That should take a few minutes with a 100 Ohms resistor – provided that the Orbo cells will not pinch most of the current.

    • Sanjeev

      I like the suggestion.
      Frank, if possible, please ask SM for his advice on this.

      • SG

        Worth asking, although these “capacitors” may not load in the same fashion as we expect capacitors to load.

      • I would vote for giving the current process another 24 hours or so (assuming no further feline incidents), trying a few tests on the output available at the USB port, and then declaring an ‘anything goes’ status to include the suggestion above, increasing the bias voltage and anything else we can come up come up with which won’t actually cause the device to catch fire.

        If the gadget is as SM puts it, ‘fecked’ then there doesn’t seem to be much to lose. Even if we blow it completely, the corpse might still be subjected to a post mortem, using a mini-drill etc.

        • georgehants

          Would isolating the stack from all connections and components and just read any raw output not give the require answer.
          Just like reading a trickle charger or battery.

        • Sanjeev

          I agree.
          And I think all these mad scientist experiments should be done only after securing a few orbos. They are a precious resource. So say, you can sacrifice 4 out of 8 available.

          • Right. We do have a sort of unspoken contract with Steorn, though, and should be careful to avoid going too far towards anything that might publicly reveal their IP.

          • Sanjeev

            I think doing that would reveal only as much as steorn has already revealed in their last video.
            Now if you try to analyze the electret materials or try to reverse engineer it in public, then I’d put it in the category of going too far. That cannot be called as a test or validation.

          • georgehants

            Peter, if the secret in the core is decipherable, then it will be found in no time just like Mr.Rossi’s nightmare of having to have a million patents to try and monopolize something just for profit, in the worst possible way for the benefit of those that need the technology most.

          • Hi George. Nevertheless I for one would feel very uncomfortable if I thought that we were repaying Steorn’s helpful co-operation by publishing something that could damage their interests. Let’s let someone else do the reverse engineering.

          • georgehants

            Understood, the question then becomes if this technology is genuine and Mr. Steorn wanted to protect it, why has he not acquired a patent?

          • SG

            The have said that they have patent pending status on the latest version of Orbo. They had also pursued (and were granted) some earlier patents, but they don’t appear to directly related to this embodiment.

          • georgehants

            Mystery then.

          • I suspect that Steorn don’t want to put their full IP into a public document, as the function, once understood, can probably be replicated in a number ways that would sdestep any patent. They may plan to rely on just keeping their special goo (the memory-retaining wax stuff) secret for long enough to make some money through licensing.

          • georgehants

            Again, if you guys can manage to decipher the core, then I think there is no hope that others with slightly better equipment etc. will not do so in 10 minuets but I take your point as very honorable.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    How about quick loading the capacitor up to the 1.6 V threshold? That should take a few minutes with a 100 Ohms resistor – provided that the Orbo cells will not pinch most of the current.

    • Sanjeev

      I like the suggestion.
      Frank, if possible, please ask SM for his advice on this.

      • SG

        Worth asking, although these “capacitors” may not load in the same fashion as we expect capacitors to load.

      • I would vote for giving the current process another 24 hours or so (assuming no further feline incidents), trying a few tests on the output available at the USB port, and then declaring an ‘anything goes’ status to include the suggestion above, increasing the bias voltage and anything else we can come up come up with which won’t involve physical danger or cause the device to catch fire.

        If the gadget is as SM puts it, ‘fecked’ then there doesn’t seem to be much to lose. Even if we blow it completely, the corpse might still be subjected to a post mortem, using a mini-drill etc.

        • georgehants

          Would isolating the stack from all connections and components and just read any raw output not give the required answer.
          Just like reading a trickle charger or battery.
          Does the stack produce an output is the only question of interest.

        • Sanjeev

          I agree.
          And I think all these mad scientist experiments should be done only after securing a few orbos. They are a precious resource. So say, you can sacrifice 4 out of 8 available.

          • Right. But we do have a sort of unspoken contract with Steorn, I think, and should be careful to avoid going too far towards anything that might publicly reveal their IP.

          • Sanjeev

            I think doing that would reveal only as much as steorn has already revealed in their last video.
            Now if you try to analyze the electret materials or try to reverse engineer it in public, then I’d put it in the category of going too far. That cannot be called as a test or validation.

          • georgehants

            Peter, if the secret in the core is decipherable, then it will be found in no time just like Mr.Rossi’s nightmare of having to have a million patents to try and monopolize something just for profit, in the worst possible way for the benefit of those that need the technology most.

          • Hi George. Nevertheless I for one would feel very uncomfortable if I thought that we were repaying Steorn’s helpful co-operation by publishing something that could damage their interests. Let’s let someone else do the reverse engineering.

          • georgehants

            Understood, the question then becomes if this technology is genuine and Mr. Steorn wanted to protect it, why has he not acquired a patent?

          • SG

            The have said that they have patent pending status on the latest version of Orbo. They had also pursued (and were granted) some earlier patents, but they don’t appear to be directly related to this embodiment.

          • georgehants

            Mystery then.

          • I suspect that Steorn don’t want to disclose their full IP in a public document, as the function, once understood, can probably be replicated in a number of differing ways that would sidestep any patent. They may plan to rely on just keeping the formula of their special goo (the memory-retaining wax stuff) secret for long enough to make some money through licensing.

            On edit: I stand corrected by SG.

          • georgehants

            Again, if you guys can manage to decipher the core, then I think there is no hope that others with slightly better equipment etc. will not do so in 10 minuets but I take your point as very honorable.

  • ecatworld
  • Frank Acland
  • Sanjeev

    Now the 5F cap is in scene. This makes things a bit complicated.
    I found a nice online calculator to compute charging time/power etc etc. This link should take you there and also load the numbers for you.
    http://mustcalculate.com/electronics/capacitorchargeanddischarge.php?vfrom=0.3872&vto=0.7615&vs=17&c=5&r=1M
    As you can see it should take 31 hours to charge 5F ALONE via 1M resistor if you use the read voltages. However we see it do that in 17 hours approx.
    I’m playing with it now.

  • SG

    Based on our observations, there is much more than 4 F capacitance overall. OM was doing more of a thought experiment. But, a definitive discharge test from a “fully” charged cube is in order, which will firm up our understanding.

  • georgehants

    My question below, if it is dumb, please tell me.
    ———
    Would isolating the stack from all connections and components and just read any raw output not give the required answer.
    Just like reading a trickle charger or battery.
    Does the stack produce an output is the only question of interest.

    • SG

      Can you rephrase your question? Not sure I understand what you are getting at.

      • georgehants

        SG, sorry but I cannot rephrase it any clearer, maybe my mind is to simplistic. ha.

        • SG

          I guess your use of the term stack was throwing me there a bit. πŸ˜‰

          Oh, you mean what Shaun did in his video? Yes, that would be useful to try ourselves, were it not for all the resin.

          I’m not sure that a single isolated Orbo cell would tell us too much, but certainly it would give us some information.

  • ecatworld

    Ok, chatting with Shaun just now. He sees the current rate of voltage increase as “awful” and is suggesting we try to shock the domains by applying a brief high voltage.

    • ecatworld

      “Get a bunch of batteries in series, positive end connected to the positive terminal, then with a wire to the negative side of the batteries, move the wire closer to the negative terminal and try to get a quick spark (which will be very high voltage, but for a very short time)”

      • As previously suggested here, PP3s can be clipped together, positive to negative, in chains of any length to make higher voltage batteries. In the absence of further guidance I would stick to 45V or so, and be fairly careful with it.

        • ecatworld

          Would that make a spark?

          • It would weld small bits of steel! So, yes.

          • ecatworld

            It’s Frankenstein time!

          • If that doesn’t do anything, you could try putting the ‘super-battery’ across the terminals in series with the 1M resistor for a while (a few minutes). That might give the orbos the kick they need.

          • ecatworld

            Maybe try that first

          • Sanjeev

            Did he tell you to use a 1M in series with the high voltage?
            Because connecting it directly would cause a huge current for that brief period. There is a 5F there.

          • ecatworld

            I asked and he said: “no for this, we are trying to spike a high fast voltage for a short period of time to see if we can kick the domains into alignment”

          • ecatworld

            Then I suggested we try with the resistor on first, and he said it was worth a try. So I think I’ll do that first.

          • Sanjeev

            Ok. And..Safety first.

          • ecatworld

            Yes.

          • Vis a vis that, if/when you come to the sparking bit you need to make a ‘brushing’ contact, maybe more than once, and be ready to knock some other contact in the chain apart to break the circuit as quickly as possible. 45V DC really can weld metal together, even at the relatively low amperage available from small batteries.

            However the internal resistance together with the presence of several Farads of capacitance should prevent anything drastic resulting from a welded wire in the short term though.

            Good luck!

          • SG

            I’d suggest try Shaun’s approach first. I believe the dipoles of the Orbo cells are better aligned with an electric field rather than an electric current.

          • Blue Energy

            Right. We want the volts – not the amps.

          • ecatworld

            You men Agaricus’s approach above — resistor in the circuit?

          • SG

            Yes, I thought Shaun had suggested the in-series resistor, but see now it was Agaricus. That is the approach I suggest too: limit the current, but with a strong field. Low amps high volts.

          • DrD

            I tend to agree, unlike a Li, volts probably more important but the 1Meg will limit the volts as well as the Amps but it’s the safer approach, work up to it gradually reducing resistance later if it doesn’t work.

          • When I read the original description of how they lock in the electrostatic field, I had assumed they used van der Graaf type voltages, perhaps generated by an old CRT EHT pack or similar. I guess we are just attempting to put a bit of Humpty Dumpty back together, avoiding potentially lethal voltages.

          • Blue Energy

            Van der Graaf generators produce thousands of volts at very low amperage. Another advantage of using the 1M resistor is that you can use more batteries in series, thus increasing the voltage, without the otherwise attendant outsized amps.

          • Blue Energy

            …and the amps are what’s lethal, not the volts.

            You know, this might be a terrific application for a taser.

          • ecatworld

            Yes, and I really don’t want to totally fry this orbo. While it is showing some results it is useful for research purposes, even though it isn’t working as the product was designed to do.

            I know there is a replacement coming, so I hope we’ll be able to test one in normal operation.

          • DrD

            Indeed, what will we all do if “we” fry it now.

          • I agree.

          • SG

            Not a moment since 2/14 have I been bored. I tell you, there should be a warning label on Orbo that states something to the effect of “can cause addiction for engineers and technophiles.”

          • DrD

            It can. It’s the series resistance that matters which includes the batteries and it’s quite high which might inhibit the success. At the weekend I used a 12V car battery charger. The low resistance allowed nice big sparks. Worked well. Be quick though in case it overheats. Suspect Orbos will be different though.