1 MW E-Cat Plant Watch Thread [UPDATE #41 — 350 Day Test is Over, Mats Lewan's Sources Say Success]

Since there are beginning to be more frequent references to the 1 MW E-Cat plant that we have been told will be installed and be open to visitors at some point (perhaps this year, according to Andrea Rossi), I thought I would create a dedicated thread to the topic which I will update as needed, like I have done with the thread about the third party report. It keeps all the information together and I think makes things easier to find.

UPDATE #41 (Feb 18, 2016)

Mats Lewan hears the test was successful:

A comment on the Journal of Nuclear Physics by Andrea Rossi announced that the 1 Year test of the E-Cat Plant has been completed.

Andrea Rossi
February 18, 2016 at 4:31 AM
Gerard Mc Ek:
The charge size has beene refined with the experience in thousands of experiments and, obviously, also on the base of theoretical considerations.
Yes, the test of 350 days is finished, yesterday the ERV has completed his tests.
Now it will take about a month to know the results from his report.
No more information about the 1 MW E-Cat that made the tests from now until the publication of the results will be allowed.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

The ERV is the “Expert Responsible for Validation” who is apparently an outside independent entity with experience in nuclear engineering and testing.

So the charge substitution process mentioned below was not an interruption to the test, but signaled the end of the test, and presumably it will continue to be used.

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UPDATE #40 (Feb 17, 2016)

In an update on the Journal of Nuclear Physics today Andrea Rossi stated that there is currently an important operation taking place with the 1 MW E-Cat Plant:

Andrea Rossi
February 17, 2016 at 7:44 AM
Blanche:
Wed Feb 17 2016, 07.43 a.m.
1 MW E-Cat : charges substitution on course
E-Cat X: in good standing, very promising
Warm Regards,
A.R.

I’m pretty sure this means that the charges used in the E-Cat reactors in the 1MW plant have lost efficiency to the extent that they can no longer be used. Rossi has said he had hoped that the charge could last for a full year, but it sounds like that’s not the case. This will mean that there will be more down time for the plant and will probably push back the ending date for the test quite a few days. Rossi has said in the past that it will take a few days at least to change the charges in the reactors.

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UPDATE #39 (Feb 6, 2016)

We’re heading into the final stretch of Andrea Rossi’s 1 MW plant test, and while Rossi has reported loss of efficiency in the plant’s reactors, and some more leakages, the test still continues. Today we’re at day 348, so we could be just weeks away from the finish line and it sounds like they are nursing the plant all the way to the end. Here’s a Q&A on the topic today.

Hello Mr. Rossi,
i have two questions.

1) it is february now, the test phase of your 1MW plant should be almost over. When do you think it will be done?

A: Still do not know, up to the end. Anything can happen anytime to cause a delay.

2) what is going to happen, if everything is successfull, soon after the end of the test? Will we get to know who the Costumer is? Will we see new demos? Will other Costumers be able to buy a new plant? What?

A: If all will go well, we will start the industrialization process. No more demos will be made. Other plants will be sold. I do not know if the Customer will want to expose himself or not and this, obviously, will not depend on me.

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UPDATE #38 (Feb 1, 2016)

It looks like the countdown clock we have been running on this site has been overly optimistic based on recent statements from Andrea Rossi on when the test might conclude. So I have adjusted the clock to the end of March, rather than February 29. Here’s a Q&A from the Journal of Nuclear Physics today:

Curiosone
February 1st, 2016 at 8:52 AM
Dr Andrea Rossi,
I understand that the tests of the 1 MW E-Cat will be co,pleted by the end of March: is this deadline still valid?
Thanks,
W.G.

Andrea Rossi
February 1st, 2016 at 9:07 AM
Curiosone:
If we’ll have not surprises from Her, I would say yes, it makes sense.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

UPDATE #37 (Jan 29, 2016)

Well that was a brief update. Rossi has updated his previous post. Maybe in his reply to me in Update #36 he meant that the trouble was over, not the test.

Andrea Rossi
January 29th, 2016 at 1:29 PM
Frank Acland:
It is over. Trouble resolved thanks to our great Team!
Warm Regards
A.R.

UPDATE #36 (Jan 29, 2015)<

Well, it seems the year-long test has failed. It did not make it to the finish line. Here’s what I asked AR on the JONP.

“Frank Acland January 29th, 2016 at 1:02 PM
Dear Andrea,
What do these troubles mean for the test in progress? Is it over, or will you need to bring in new reactors?
Many thanks,
Frank Acland

Andrea Rossi January 29th, 2016 at 1:29 PM
Frank Acland:
It is over.
Warm Regards

What this will mean to the E-Cat commercialization project now is an open question. Knowing Rossi he will not be giving up. I expect that Rossi will go on with his R&D on the E-Cat, especially with the E-Cat X which he has seemed very hopeful about, but by his own admission, the low temperature plant technology is not ready for the marketplace.

UPDATE #35 (Jan 29, 2015)

From a couple of new comments from Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics, it sounds like things are not going too well with the 1 MW plant.

Andrea Rossi
January 29th, 2016 at 10:12 AM
René Bergeron:
at 10.10 a.m. of Friday Jan 29 2016:
1 MW E-Cat : troublesome, lowest efficiency, working on it. Not a good night, honestly.
E-Cat X: remade another to continue destructive tests
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Andrea Rossi
January 29th, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Elise:
Please, understand that to put in the markes an immature product in our case could be devastating.
There is nobody in the world that more than me desires to put massively the E-Cat in the market, but we are not ready. Too bad about sceptics.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

We’ve been hearing from Rossi about the reactors losing efficiency lately, and it sounds like the problems are continuing, and increasing. Rossi says that they do have backup reactors in place and we don’t know if he’ll deploy them. From Rossi’s tone here, it sounds like he’s going to be doing some rethinking about everything. I guess we’ll find out more what this means for the overall test.

UPDATE #34 (Jan 23, 2015)

Andrea Rossi has provided some interesting details about the current plant under test in this response to a question from Barty about the current test in progress:

Andrea Rossi
January 23rd, 2016 at 8:12 AM
Barty:
Your assumption has right of citizenship in the kingdom of logic, but we must be conservative.
There are many parts of the plant that need upgrading and the next generation of industrial plants (F9) will be different. I cannot give the details of the parts to be modified, for obvious reasons, but we are talking not just of plumbing and wiring, we are talking of internal structure of the reactors.
This plant belongs to the first generation, substantially it is equal to the plant tested in Bologna in the Winter of 2011; the next one will be different and I am already designing it (again: F9).
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Comparing this plant to the 2011 Bologna plant gives an indication of how many changes might be needed, since the design of that plant has been superseded. I think this is the clearest statement from Rossi so far about his assessment of the current plant design, and it is an admission that it really is not suitable for the marketplace in its current iteration. He has reported the need multiple repairs during the course of this test, and when he mentions changing the “internal structure of the reactors”, this would imply that quite a bit of work will be needed, and further testing, which brings up the question of whether there will need to be more extended testing, and how long it might take to get a satisfactory plant on the market.

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UPDATE #33 (Jan 17, 2015)

Andrea Rossi has stated that there continues to be some loss of efficiency in the reactors of the E-Cat plant. He says he had hoped the fuel charge would be enough to last a full year, but as the test enters its final days it seems like the potency is decreasing somewhat. There appear to be three options at this point:

a) Keep going with the same charges in the reactors; Rossi says so far the COP is good enough despite the loss of efficiency

b) Change the charges; Rossi said this:

The charge, if necessary, can be changed, obviously delaying the term of the test end by the number of days necessary. We still have days spared of the allowed 400 days, so the validity of the test should not be compromised. So far, anyway, it has not necessary to change the charge.

c) Employ the backup reactors which are in standby mode; of this option, Rossi wrote: “that is another safety boat. In a military term: it is our “reserve” division.”

Update: Thanks to Gerard McEk for asking a further question about this:

“Dear Andrea,
You wrote that after a long night fight you have assessed the lowering COP problem.
Can you tell us if that means that the COP is back to normal, or were some other issues solved that were bothering you because of the decreasing COP?
Can you define when you consider the test positive?
Thanks and kind regards, Gerard

Andrea Rossi January 17th, 2016 at 12:26 PM
Gerard McEk:
The COP has slightly diminished its value, but we stopped the tendency to go lower, now it is stable.
The test will be defined positive or negative when the 350 days of operation will have been completed.
Warm Regards,
A.R.”

Go to comments

UPDATE #32 (Jan 14, 2015)

In the end, it is happy customers who will prove whether E-Cat technology is useful or not, and from what Andrea Rossi states here, it sounds like the current customer would like to extend its use of the plant after the conclusion of the test — which is an indication that they are happy with their energy savings:

January 14th, 2016 at 5:53 AM
Dear Mr. Rossi,

Since the test period is soon over….

1. Have the Customer indicated a wish to extend the lease if test is a success (or buy the plant) ? AR: yes

2. If not extended lease, what is your further plans for the test plant? AR: if the results will be positive we will make more plants

3. Have you identified changes in the design that will be implemented when / if you start manufacturing on a broad scale…? AR: yes

Go to comments

UPDATE #31 (Dec 30, 2015)

As we approach the end of the year, over 10 months into the test it sounds like the reactors in the E-Cat plant are getting a bit fatigued. Andrea Rossi wrote a week or so ago that one of the reactors was showing less efficiency, and today he wrote this on the JONP:

Azzurra:
Time: 08.05 a.m. of Wed Dec 30st :
E-Cat 1 MW: another reactor shows a decrease of efficiency, but still has enough COP. The charges are starting to give evidence of consumption. Very interesting to study the phenomenon from now on.
E-Cat X: works, makes heat and electricity, is very promising.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Rossi has said that the charge in each of the four reactors was slightly different, and this was a deliberate move so he could observe differences in operation based on different formulas. From an experimental point of view this would be interesting to AR, but whether the plant is able to meet the goals for the test remains to be seen. AR has said that there is an option to replace the charges in a if necessary, but he said that was a complex operation that could take up to six days to accomplish. Also, there is still in place the backup bank of small reactors that have not been used for most of the test, but which Rossi has said could be employed if there was a need.

There’s some more information on the situation in this Q&A between Steven Karels and Andrea Rossi on the JONP:

a. Are all four 250kW reactors currently being used? yes

b. Are any reactors producing less than 250kW of thermal power? -can’t answer

c. As a particular reactor approaches fuel exhaustion, do you see increased control issues? no

d. Likewise, do you observe a decreased effective COP for that reactor? yes

e. Likewise, do you see decreases in the time of SSM for that reactor? yes

f. Can the other reactors have their output increased beyond 250kW to compensation for the reactors experiencing approach of fuel exhaustion? can’t answer

UPDATE #30 (Sep 21, 2015)

I asked Andrea Rossi some questions regarding the condition of the plant, and about the repairs that have been done on the reactors. I have included his responses after each question.

Dear Andrea,

You have made a number of repairs on reactors over the course of this long-term test.

1. Have you changed any of the fuel or charge in any of the reactors yet? AR: no
2. Are you using the same reactors as when you started? AR: yes
3. Have your repairs involved replacing components and/or materials surrounding the reactors? AR: yes
4. Have you been successful in your repairs in reducing the amount of problems with the E-Cats? AR: yes

I followed up with another question: “Regarding repairs you have had to make on your reactors again, are they mainly connected with materials degradation caused by long-term heat exposure?”

AR: I would say yes, and we learnt much about new mterials to be used instead.

UPDATE #29 (Sep 20, 2015)

Andrea Rossi was asked directly today when the 1 MW plant would be over and he gave this response: “The tests should end by February 2016, so long no major delays are caused by malfunctions.”

So that makes me guess that the total downtime so far has probably been between 1 and 2 weeks.

UPDATE #28 (Sep 19, 2015)

There’s some interesting information on the Journal of Nuclear Physics about the amount of down time that has been during the current test of the 1 MW plant. A reader asked Andrea Rossi about how many days the plant has been down since the test started on Feb 20th this year. These were the options to choose from:

1) less than but equal to 24 hours?
2) greater than 24 hours but less than or equal to 7 days?
3) greater than 7 days but less than or equal to 4 weeks?
4) greater than 4 weeks?

Andrea Rossi responded: “3”. This means that for the test to run 350 days in total, the ending would be pushed back to at least February 10th, and as far as March 3rd, 2016. And this means the counter I have been running is not accurate — I think I better take it down!

UPDATE #27 (Sep 18, 2015)

By my calculations, based on what Andrea Rossi said in update #26 below, the 1 MW plant has been running for 207 days now, and the test in progress is supposed to run for 350 days. On the Journal of Nuclear Physics today Rossi was asked that if the test were to end today, would he consider the results positive or negative.

His response was: “Positive with the potential risk to become negative.”

I take this to mean that the plant has been operating well, producing energy via the ‘Rossi effect’ at a significant COP — however it has not been running long enough for Rossi to declare final victory. So far, so good, but the 350 day milestone seems to be the finish line that has yet to be reached.

UPDATE #26 (Jul 7, 2015)

Today Andrea Rossi gave the first concrete answer to a question about how long the 1 MW plant has been operating. The question on the Journal of Nuclear Physics was “How many operative days of 24 hours each has the 1 MW E-Cat operated, from the start up to now? Can you tell us this?”

Rossi’s response was:

Andrea Rossi
July 6th, 2015 at 2:28 PM
JC Renoir:
136 days as of today.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

136 days is about 4.5 months. Rossi has said recently that they have had to shut the plant down on occasion to fix certain things, and we don’t know how much downtime there has been so far. According to Rossi, they are contractually obligated to have the plant run for 350 days in a 400 day period, so this would mean the plant will need to run for at least another 214 days. So by my calculations, the test can’t end until February 2016 at the earliest.

UPDATE #25 (May 2, 2015)

Andrea Rossi gave some information today about the plant that indicates that it will have to produce a COP of at least 4 based on the power rating of the resistors used in the plant:

Andrea Rossi
May 2nd, 2015 at 6:38 PM
The 1MW E-Cat does not have the power to supply 1 MWh/h of energy without the Rossi Effect. The total power of the resistances is about 250 kW, therefore by Joule effect we can give max 250 kWh/h of energy. This is why we have to study well the duration of the charges and, until we have not a precise idea, we have fixed in 6 months the fuellife. This time we have the possibility to try 1 year; obviously as soon as we notice a decrease of efficiency we change the charge.
Since we have 400 days at our disposal to operate 350 days, in this test and R&D agreed upon with the Customer, we have room for this experiment.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

In other words, if the plant is producing 1 megawatt with 250 kW of resistance heaters, it would be 400 per cent efficient (COP 4) if the resistors were powered continually — this is not taking into account the periods of self-sustain that Rossi has said are very long. All this points towards a COP well beyond the minimum of 4 calculated here.

Rossi also mentions here that they are going to try to run the plant for a full year on one charge, and not stop the experiment at the minimum 350 day mark. According to Rossi, in another post today, this will mean that the test will end in December 2015 at the earliest, February 2016 at the latest.

UPDATE #24 (May 1, 2015)

Here’s an interesting post from Andrea Rossi on the JONP that explains in part how the reportedly high COP is being achieved: by having one E-Cat drive another — this is the ‘synergy’ that Rossi has mentioned quite a bit. Using one E-Cat to power another has always seemed to me to have a lot of potential in terms of energy savings, and so it’s good to hear that Rossi and his team seem to be having some success with it.

Andrea Rossi

BroKeeper:
The ssm is enhanced by the fact that with the control system directing multiple reactors we can obtain a synergy between them using some of the reactors to drive others, where the driving ones ( mouse operation) are less than the cat ones. This way the ssm phases are substantially more that the driving ones. This synergy, obviously, is possible only with big plants ( so far).
I cannot give the numbers, as correctly Steven N Karels anticipated and, also, after consulting Orsobubu, I have to add that what we have now is not the final result, things can worsen substantially in time and the final results could be either positive or negative ( this last phrase could be substituted by F-Something).
Warm Regards,
A.R.

UPDATE #23 (Apr 22, 2015)

Below is a lengthy comment on the Journal of Nuclear Physics by Andrea Rossi which gives a lot of details about the measurement systems in place at the 1 MW plant. I had not seen this post until now (it was a comment on a very old JONP post) — but it was published on April 3rd. One interesting aspect is that there is an appointed ‘Referee’ — presumably an independent party — who is keeping track of all the measurements involved, and who it seems will make the final determination about the COP.

Andrea Rossi
April 3rd, 2015 at 7:44 PM
Desmondet:
The measurement system of the 1 MW E-Cat is made by:

56 thermocouples to measure the temperature of the water steam in different positions

56 thermocouples to measure the temperature of the liquid water that flows toward the reactors in different positions

1 PCE 830 to measure the consumption of electric power, which has been installed between the container of the reactors and the electric power source of the Customer’s Factory, plus

the Wattmeter of the Customer’s factory installed by the electric energy provider

56 pressure gauges to measure the pressure of the steam in different positions

All the data are taken by the certified registration system made by the referee, who has placed the certified gauges to calculate the COP, and collected in his computer. All the referee’s gauges are certified and sealed.
Besides all this, there is the master Gauge, which is the manufacturing plant of the Customer, which needs 1 MWh/h of thermal energy carried by steam: if they receive this energy they pay for the plant, provided we give the granted COP, otherwise they do not pay. They measure with their instrumentation the amount and quality of the steam, but most of everything, they check the amount and the quality of their production and compare their costs using the E-Cat VS their costs with the traditional heaters. Their plant is the universal gauge and is, under a commercial point of view, the only one that really counts. So far the Customer is satisfied. Nevertheless, I have to add that it is soon to assume final considerations and we are aware of the fact that within the end of the year the results could be positive, but also negative.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

So with a referee in place, I wonder if this could be considered another ‘third party’ test.

UPDATE #22 (Apr 21, 2015)

Another comment about sources visiting the 1MW plant currently under test by Rossi from the Sifferkol website run by Torkel Nyberg (see here http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/?p=626:

“I know first hand from very reliable sources that themselves have visited the Rossi/Industrial Heat E-Cat customer that the plant works very well. This has been verified both by measurements made by the customer and by significantly reduced electricity bills. The plant seems to be able to produce heat from electricity with a COP in the range of 20-80 depending on the level of self-sustain-mode applied. I guess that is what Rossi is working on right now.”

Mats Lewan now has updated his blog post (see update #21 below) to confirm that he has heard the same information as reported on the Sifferkol site. He writes:

UPDATE: Since a COP (Coefficient of Performance — output energy/input energy) ranging from 20 to 80 has been reported, I can confirm that I have got the same information.

UPDATE #21 (Apr 20, 2015)

Here’s an interesting comment from Mats Lewan from a new post on his animpossibleinvention.com site, that gives some confirmation about what Andrea Rossi has been saying about the performance of the 1 MW plant:

From credible sources I get confirmation of what Rossi states — that the plant is running very well — which means that we should expect important results presented at the end of the 400 day trial, backed up by a customer who certifies the useful power output and the measured electrical input from the grid. Such results will be difficult to challenge . . . Since these results will be presented before the next ICCF, this year’s conference may have been the last before a major breakthrough for cold fusion.

Mats has good connections when it comes to people related to the E-Cat, and I would not question what he reports here. He is certainly not one to hype things. He mentions here a 400 day trial. According to Rossi, the customer requires the plant to run well for 365 days out of 400. Rossi has said they won’t be able to report until November at the earliest, but if the rest of the run is smooth sailing with no major downtime, we might get a report by the end of this year.

UPDATE #20 (Apr 9, 2015)

The following brief quote below is posted with permission from an email exchange I had with Andrea Rossi recently.

The Lady E-Cat 1MW is stable and the COP is very high, because we are mostly in ssm mode. I am writing from inside the computers container.

UPDATE #19 (Mar 29 2015)

More encouraging words today from Andrea Rossi regarding the 1 MW plant:

The E-Cat this week has been good, with very, very extended ssm periods. I prefer to give data regarding the COP after the end of the test.
From inside the plant,
A.R., with Warm Regards

It’s hard to interpret exactly what Rossi means by ‘Very, very’ extended self-sustain mode periods, but it sounds quite emphatic, and suggests a fairly dramatic improvement in COP. I would guess that since the early guaranteed COP Rossi talked about in the early days of the E-Cat was 6, that they could be getting double that, or even more.

This ability to self-sustain is really the remarkable thing about the E-Cat. From testing we have seen so far, without a self-sustain mechanism, it appears that the E-Cat can get a maximum COP of 3 or 4 which is impressive and could be commercially useful in some situations — but the commercial appeal will really grow if you can cut your fuel expenditures by 75 per cent or more, which might be possible with extended self sustain periods.

UPDATE #18 (Mar 13 2015)

More from Rossi on the subject of update #17 today:

The ssm of the 1MW E-Cat is very long. It has been a terrific surprise, due to evolution of the charge and to the control system. I am not permitted to publish numbers before the end of the test, but I must say that the final results can be positive, but also could be negative, so we retain the data until the test is finished. One thing is for sure: I do not stay here 16-18 hours per day to sharpen the points to the pencils. We also have a new kind of gauge, which is the bill of the electric provider to our Customer, wherein are written the MWh he consumes per month ( the electricity source that feeds the plant has been insulated from other loads): the Customer makes a ratio between the thermal MWh we deliver and the MWh he pays for to the electricity provider and has the real COP. This is a measuring system not very sophysticated, but brutally true: the Customer is positively surprised from the results, so far, after a troublesome initial period. We hope the situation goes on likewise.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

The news sounds very positive from Rossi here — good to see the real COP being measured by the electric meter and the electric bill. That is all that matters to most people.

UPDATE #17 (Mar 13 2015)

Andrea Rossi made an interesting, seemingly off the cuff remark in a comment regarding the USPTO rejection of the his patent. He says that patent or no patent his work will go forward, but there is no reason not to try for a patent through the appeal process. At the end of this comment he remarks:

P.S. The plant is going well. Very long ssm periods. Very long.

SSM refers to self-sustain mode, when the E-Cats continue their reaction with external power turned off. The longer the self sustain periods, the better. The higher the COP, the more money the customer saves on energy, and energy savings is what the E-Cat is all about in the final analysis.

UPDATE #16 (Mar 11 2015)

I submitted a few new questions on the Journal of Nuclear Physics to Andrea Rossi regarding work on the 1 MW plant:

1. How many members of your team, beside yourself, are assigned full time to manage the production of the 1MW plant? AR: 1- here are two persons fix plus me. They work 8 -10 hours per day, I prefer to stay here 16-18 hours per day. When necessary we call reinforces.

2. If the plant passes the year-long test, how many people will be required to manage the plant?

AR: 2- none, the comtrol system will make it all, but will be necessary the presence in the factory of a specialist certified by us.

3. Have any of the reactors in the plant received a replacement charge so far? AR: 3- no and I hope the charge will last 1 year.

Although Rossi has not said when the test started, he says it will be over sometime between November and next February, so by calculations I think we are probably about four months into the year-long test, and so far the fuel charges seems to be holding up. Initially Rossi said E-Cats would need a charge every six months, but now he has higher expectations.

UPDATE #15 (Feb 25 2015)

It seems from the following question and response that the 1 MW E-Cat plant is running well:

Dear Andrea,

As you continue your year-long production testing on your customer’s site, is the customer able to carry on operations normally, or are you interrupting their production activity with your work?
Many thanks,
Frank Acland

Frank Acland:
The Customer has a back up, just in case we’d have interruptions.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

My own interpretation of this response (could be wrong) is that the energy used in the production process (whatever that is) is coming from the E-Cat. Rossi has mentioned that contractually he needs to have his plant operating 365 days out of 400, so there seems to be a certain amount of downtime acceptable to the customer, and from this response it sounds to me like the backup is not automatically activated during “pit stops”. Maybe if there was an extended E-Cat outage the backup would be employed.

UPDATE #14 (Feb 14 2015)

There’s no major news on this front, but there have been a few comments lately from Andrea Rossi regarding the 1 MW plant, which seems to be working away under the watchful eye of Rossi and his team. Here are few samples from recent posts he has made on the Journal of Nuclear Physics:

Andrea Rossi
February 14th, 2015 at 8:14 AM
Curiosone:
Yesterday we had problems with the control system, eventually fixed.
Today ( Saturday) I can see that so far all is ok.
Warm Regards
A.R.

Andrea Rossi
February 14th, 2015 at 8:08 AM
Joya del Sol:
It is not true that several years ago we were testing a 1 MW plant in the premises of an industrial Customer. I never said that.
We are doing it now. The future will depend on the final results of the tests on course. The results could be positive, as we hope, but also negative, as I have to say. This plant is the first commercial plant in operation in the world making thermal energy necessary to an industrial manufacturing concern, inside the premises of the Customer. This plant’s efficiency is not just measured on the base of scientific calculations, as happened up to now, but mainly on the base of the energy costs related to the manufacturing system of the Customer: what counts for the Customer are not the scientific calculations, but the money he makes ( or loses) using the E-Cat instead of a regular plant.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Andrea Rossi
February 12th, 2015 at 5:55 AM
Bernie Koppenhofer:
Alexander Parkhomov replica is very interesting, though !
As I said, the tests of the 1 MW plant delivered to our Customer will end between November 2015 and February 2016.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

UPDATE #13 (Jan 9 2015)

Another Q&A with Rossi and a JONP reader today regarding the timing of the commercial phase of IH’s work, following the conclusion of the year long test of the 1 MW plant:

Q. You said that, in the most positive scenario, the commercial phase will likely start shortly after the end of the test period of the 1 MW plant. If everything goes as expected, again in the most positive scenario, how long should this test still last?

A. Andrea Rossi
January 9th, 2015 at 12:48 PM
Jack:
In the best scenario could be November 2015/ January 2016.
Wishes of a great 2015 also to you from our Team,
A.R.

With this being a ‘best case’ scenario, I think we might be wise not to expect major news from IH until 2016 at the earliest. We might be pleasantly surprised this year, but things of this magnitude generally tend to take longer than the most optimistic forecasts. We always seem to be waiting for one more test from Rossi and Co.!

UPDATE #12 (Jan 8 2015)

There’s precious little new information about the progress of Industrial Heat’s 1 MW plant that is apparently under testing at the moment at an IH customer site. Andrea Rossi is not revealing much on the JONP about it these days, but I did manage to get in a couple of responses to questions about it recently:

Q: In November you mentioned that the current 1 MW E-Cat plant you are working on has a volume of reactors of half a cubic meter (500 liters of volume) — which would mean a power density of 2 kW per liter. Today you mention a power density of 10 kW per liter (excluding heat exchangers). Is this for a different system?

A: Yes, the volume of the reactors has been reduced to about 1l/10kW

Q: So you have redesigned the plant as you have worked on it?

A: Not just me, but our Team did. (AR responding to another question on the topic): I can say that the ratio between volume and power has still room to be reduced. The tale of the Incredible Shrinking Cat is not yet at “The End”.

Q: How satisfied are you with the performance of the 1 MW plant so far?

A: I cannot give any information regarding the performance. I can say that I am optimist about the behaviour of the I MW plant along the 1 year test. I can say that nothing happened that could turn me pessimist. So far. I must add, under the permanent direction of Orsobubu, that the final output could be positive, but also negative.

The last comment suggests to me that things are going well for now. I think the testing of the plant began around September of last year, so I don’t expect any conclusive information coming from Rossi or Industrial Heat until September of this year, at the earliest.

UPDATE #11 (Oct 2, 2014)

Well that was quick . . . Andrea Rossi today responded to a question on the JONP about whether the problems with 1 MW plant were worse, or better than two weeks ago, saying:

Our 1 MW plant is a magnificence and an ouvre d’art: we resolved the problems we had ( so far…). We have a great team!

It sounds like a positive turn of events. Not sure if this will put them back on track to unveil the plant in the near future. Rossi has said on numerous occasions that the plant needs to run for at least one year before they can consider the situation ‘consolidated’.

UPDATE #10 (Oct 1, 2014)

Andrea Rossi was asked today by Timyceyln whether he thought it would be wise to get outside experts in to help with the heat control system for the new E-Cat plant, which is where he and others think IH might be having problems.

Rossi replied:

In our Team there are specialists of the necessary fields and when we need support we ask it from external specialists of our trust. Obviously the control system are a vital part of the plant and your Group can be sure we have top level engineers that have designed it. Obviously we work only with persons who got the necessary clearance, beside the necessary professionality.

It’s interesting to learn that they are are reaching out to outside experts, too. There must now be a substantial number of people ‘in the know’, but his talk of ‘necessary clearance’ suggests that there are strict requirements of confidentiality put in place which would keep the news from spreading outside authorized circles.

UPDATE #9 (Oct 1, 2014)

A reader on the Journal of Nuclear Physics suggests that a positive report could put Rossi and IH under tremendous pressure from competition and the awakening of sleeping giants, including those who would want to steal the secrets of E-Cat technology. Rossi responded:

You have imagined the bright side of the moon. I should have to imagine the dark side of the moon. The consequences of a failure would be devastating.
In both cases, I will continue, as always, to pray God every morning and then put down at work, because in both cases much work will have to be done by our team. First of all, we want to see the 1 MW plant work well for a long, long time, and make profits for the company of our Customer. I have to focus on this, not on the sides of the moon.

It’s a good example of how Rossi sees his job. He doesn’t seem to spend too much time worrying about “what ifs”. His focus right now seems to be getting the 1 MW plant to run correctly, and I guess that the problems they have encountered with this project have heightened this focus. Failure in this first project would really set back the IH business plan — for who would want to deal with a company who can’t make a product that operates correctly?

UPDATE #8 (Sep 19, 2014)

I asked Andrea Rossi today on the Journal of Nuclear Physicsabout the status of the 1MW plant that he reported had been taken to the customer’s plant and he responded:

We are resolving problems, in a preliminary phase. It will take at least one year before considering consolidated the situation.

In a follow-up I asked if they were still planning on allowing visits to the plants in the near future. His reply:

In the near future is impossible. In future yes, but I cannot give a scheduling, because it depends on what the Customer thinks: we are not in the factory of Industrial Heat, we are in the factory of a Customer. Presently we have problems to resolve.

So it appears that all is not going smoothly with this first installation. It’s not clear what the problems are, and I’m not sure that Rossi will be telling us.

UPDATE: Thanks to Barty for asking on the JONP about the nature of the problems they are experiencing:

Barty:

We have a lot of minor problems; obviously I cannot give the particulars; also, we have to adjust the plant to the particular needs of the Customer, as you correctly said, therefore, as usually, from problems are born more problems. Lot of work to do.

Warm Regards,

A.R.

More from the JONP:

Dear Andrea,
What you have in your installation program are bugs which are uncovered in any first field test. Just look at Apple with their introduction of the I-phone6 or Boeing with the 787. Nothing unusual.

AR: Yes, exactly; anyway, in my life I have designed and installed hundreds of industrial plants, never had the luck to see one pass through the first period of several months without troubles. This is NOT an exception.

UPDATE #7 (Sep 19, 2014)

Here are some new questions and answers from the Journal of Nuclear Physics that have just been posted regarding the 1 MW plant production:

1) Are the automated production lines running properly?
AR: We are not yet in a situation that justifies an automated production line, but we have already ready part of them and the designs for the complete operation. [Rossi added the following after the initial post:] Obviously, before we launch a mass production we need first of all to evaluate the report of the Independent Third Party, the results of at least one year of operation of the 1MW plant in the factory of the Customer and the follow up of our R&D process. Probably you think all this takes too much time: you have not idea of the thousands of thousands of particulars you have to adjust; the more you work, the more you have to work because new problems are born from former ones. It is a permanent ( Hi, Orsobubu!) struggle.
2) Have you shipped 5 or more 1MW plants during Aug and Sept?
AR: No
3) How many man hours does it take to assemble a 1MW plant?
This information is not available to the public.

The answer to question 1 does not surprise me; I expect that IH is in a preparatory stage, but since there are probably not many orders for E-Cat plants, there is no need for mass production yet. I would also guess that there will be a need for qore investment before mass production takes place — in terms of manufacturing machinery, labor, distribution, installation, and maintenance. I would expect and hope that the IH team will be planning carefully how they introduce the E-Cat to the public which could lead to interest from industry and orders for their plants.

UPDATE #6 (Sep 12, 2014)

Today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics, Andrea Rossi made the following statement:

The 1 MW plant is in the factory of a Customer of IH. As far as I know, the Customer will not allow any video for the time being. IH has not jurisdiction in the factories of his Customers as for what is related to videos to be published. Eventually specific visits, as I already said, will be allowed, but it is too soon to talk about this. (emphasis added)

To the best of my recollection this is the first time that we have heard that the 1 MW plant has left the IH factory and is now on site at the customer’s premises where it will be put to work. I take this as good news; I am sure the plant will have been tested by IH, and if had been major operating problems, I don’t think the plant would have been shipped to the customer.

UPDATE #5 (Aug 20, 2014)

Andrea Rossi was asked on the Journal of Nuclear Physics what will be happening in September. He responded by writing:

“Our activity is in expansion, the team is increasing. Important events are on the verge to happen.”

UPDATE #4 (Aug 11, 2014)

Second update to this thread today — in another comment on the JONP today, Rossi I think indicates that things must be going well with the operation of the plant. He was responding to a comment about the name of the phenomenon and added:

I know that we have a consolidated explication about how the so called “Rossi Effect” works and the physical mechanirms that allow it to work. Otherwise, it could not work reliably in industrial applications.

UPDATE #3 (Aug 11, 2014)

To have the E-Cat working ‘reliably in industrial applications’ would seem to bode well for this first plant.

I asked Rossi today on the JONP about how things were looking behind the scenes from his perspective. He replied:

This is a period of top level engagement for what concerns the 1 MW plant, we are in the most critic moment; all our team is focused on it. About the Report, the waiting for it is a massive vibration in the field of anxiety.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

UPDATE #2 (Aug 2, 2014)

I put some questions to Rossi on the JONP about the 1 MW plant today:

1. Will the customer of the first 1 MW plant be involved in the testing of the plant before it is installed to ensure it meets expected performance standards?

– No, we have to respect the guarantees of performance we signed for and we will be paid if the guarantees will be respected. As it happens for any kind of technological plant.

2. Will the plant replace an existing heat source at the customer’s location, or will it be installed on a brand new production line?

– Brand new production line with a back up in case of problems to our plant

3. Is your work on the 1MW plant currently on schedule?

When Rossi says the plant is ‘on schedule’, I think this may mean that it will be revealed this year. Just the other day he said “Visits will be allowed when the Customer will allow them, maybe within the year.”

– Yes

UPDATE #1 (Aug 1, 2014)

A question posed on the Journal of Nuclear Physics today by Hank Mills got an interesting answer from Andrea Rossi:

HM: Regardless if the one megawatt plant satisfies the customer or not, how much did it cost to build in parts and materials. (This does not include labor but only the container, electronics, plumbing, reactors, etc.)

AR: This information is confidential for commercial reasons, so far. I can say, though, that the production cost in $/Kw is very competitive with the cost of power of traditional power and heat generation systems.

Even though the numbers obviously remain confidential, there could be quite a revelation here from Rossi in that he is seems to be tacitly admitting that they have done enough testing on the system to be able to run the numbers in terms of overall costs of E-Cat produced energy compared to other energy technologies. Maybe he forgot to put his ‘positive or negative’ disclaimer here.

In other words, you can’t calculate the production cost in terms of $/kw unless you know the amount of energy you are producing. If the E-Cat is ‘very competitive’ in comparison with traditional power and heat generation systems, it sounds to me like positive results from the 1 MW plant.

  • Mike

    At least Mr. Rossi is saying the right things. $/kW is really the key, at least for widespread use. If the energy is “free” but the capital cost is very high, then it doesn’t remain viable.

    • Owen Geiger

      The capital cost will plummet once they start mass producing units, especially if China becomes a major partner.

      • If the nickel powder charge can be created inexpensively then these things are going to be dirt cheap. The E-Cat is relatively simple, compared to many other devices.

        There are some engineering challenges in scaling up to huge plants, but once those are worked through there is nothing about the raw ingredients or the manufacturing process that is going to make the costs spike. The only expensive part is the initial R&D, design and testing work and that’s what they are working through now.

      • Omega Z

        Capitol costs will ultimately be comparable. Only the energy produced will be cheaper.
        A boiler is still a boiler, Exchanger, etc. The E-cat reactors will likely cost more then the burners they replace, but I allow this cost being offset by other savings.

        In General, Power plants are built according to limitations. Nukes are always large due to it’s fuel characteristics. Fossil plants according to fuel transport. Pipeline/Rail tend to be expensive so you build near existing structure & again tend to be large. Due to size & cooling needs, they tend to be built near large bodies of water, Rivers, Lakes, Oceans. And now you have long distance power transmission lines.

        Nickel fuel eliminates all these limitations. They can be built smaller & at point of use. No long distance transmission lines, fuel delivered by “Drone :-)”, Small enough to be self contained(Evaporator/Condensers) where additional water is only for occasional topping off.

        I don’t think they’ll be economical for home generation outside of large complexes or high rises in the near term without other technological advances. Except home heating. Even these will be powered by cheap E-cat electricity, so cost would be greatly reduced.

    • tobalt

      at least $/kW might be the only thing that *could* be costly about rossis reactors. the $/kWh are very likely to be extremely low, as maintanence and fuel costs are very low.

      It’s good that he also mentions the installation costs now. That number is important particularly for the large scale investors.

  • Owen Geiger

    “Maybe he forgot to put his ‘positive or negative’ disclaimer here.” Ha ha. That’s what I thought of right away. Maybe it was a mistake, but there’s a chance he’s throwing us a tidbit of inside info.

    • bachcole

      We all here are getting inside information. But the walls of secrecy is merely people’s disbelief.

  • Owen Geiger

    “Maybe he forgot to put his ‘positive or negative’ disclaimer here.” Ha ha. That’s what I thought of right away. Maybe it was a mistake, but there’s a chance he’s throwing us a tidbit of inside info.

    • bachcole

      We all here are getting inside information. But the walls of secrecy is merely people’s disbelief.

  • bachcole

    This is very confusing to me, in general. If the number that we use for comparison is $/Kw, then we take the manufacturing cost, the maintenance cost, plus the cost for fuel, all over time and divide by the total number of kilowatts. The cost to manufacture can’t be all that great, not like a windmill or hydroelectric dam or nuclear power plant. (Of course, there is the cost of discovery and development, but I shall ignore that for the moment.) Assuming that the plumbing is good, maintenance should be very low. Fuel and fuel replacement should be very cheap. But we won’t know the amount of kilowatts, ever, since the dang thing will just keep going and going and going. So the actual $/Kw should be very close to zero. How does one calculate the $/Kw for anything that is likely to last for a very long time, like wind or solar.

    Perhaps there needs to be two numbers. The initial $/Kw, which would be manufacturing cost divided by power, and the ongoing costs of maintenance and fuel divided by power. Since the output is reliable, using energy as a divisor is unnecessary.

    Please correct me if I am mistaken here.

    • tobalt

      youre mixing up watts and joules

      • bachcole

        ???
        watts =
        watt hours =
        joules =

        But my point remains, start-up costs divided by infinite joules or watts is like zero. The E-Cat is close to a perpetual motion machine, with a little help. Since the fuel is insignificant, I don’t see how cost divided by energy makes a lot of sense.

    • If the E-Cat plant costs $1M to build and runs at 1 MW then we have $1 per Watt. That will not change no matter how long it runs. MW (megawatt) is power and power does not sum over time; energy sums over time. If you run a 1 MW plant for 5 hours, you have generated 5 MWh of energy but the plant was running at 1 MW power the whole time. You have not generated 5 MW of power over that time; that’s nonsense — power is the rate of energy per unit time.

      A simple analogy: if you drive your car at 50 mph for ten hours, your car did not achieve 500 mph at the end of the trip. Instead you went 500 miles at a steady rate of 50 mph.

      And Rossi should have written kW, not Kw. Bugs Bunny’s adversaries often had ‘pronoun trouble.’ In LENR-land we seem to have recurring ‘unit trouble.’

      • bachcole

        I understand, thank you. I actually already understood that, but I got mixed up when I realized that say a $1 million 1 MW coal burning plant vs. a $1 million 1 MW E-Cat are very different in real value because the coal burning plant is going to require much more maintenance and fuel input than the E-Cat. The total cost of operation vs the total amount of energy needs to be considered (to say nothing of reliability, safety, pollution, intermittency, etc).

        • In X years:

          Coal = Dead. Mining and transportation costs plus pollution concerns.

          Nuclear = Dead. High plant costs and radioactive waste. Safety concerns.

          Oil = Life support. Extraction costs and pollution concerns. Still needed for plastics and other uses though.

          Wind = Dead. Installation costs and intermittent supply.

          NatGas = Long sunset. Extraction and transportation costs; pollution and fracking concerns. It will not go down easy… though the construction of new plants should tail off once LENR plants are a common option, it will take a long time for home heating and cooling to be primarily LENR-based.

          Solar = Survivor/Complementary. Can provide small mobile sources of electricity on a scale LENR likely will not be able to match any time soon. Price has been plummeting and technology advances rapid. Large centralized solar plants will likely be retired as unnecessary.

          • bachcole

            Nice. This is about as inevitable as the Sun rising tomorrow. But the X is still an unknown, perhaps it is the Roman symbol for 10. I would love to see people’s estimate for the value of X. I like 15.

          • Omega Z

            Considering numbers put together for Green Energies replacing most fossil fuels, an optimistic guess-

            X=50

          • Broncobet

            If you really believe that you could short futures in coal, natural gas, and oil. There was a guy on this blog who was bitterly complaining that he thought the TIP would be ready in spring and he’d invested in a Co. that would benefit from it. He called IH and Rossi greedy because they were delaying and his investment had headed south. If you want to know when something momentous is about to happen just watch the future months and years of the futures markets in energy products. Information ALWAYS leaks out and people would short coal. gas, and oil.

    • HHiram

      Well, you wouldn’t say forever and ever, you would amortize the initial costs of equipment over a depreciation period – say, 10 years. That would give you part of the a periodic cost, to which you would add maintenance and fueling costs as you said. That would give you a total periodic cost (per month/year/whatever), based on how many kilowatt-hours of power were produced in that period. This would be valid for the first 10 years, and then after that (assuming the powerplant is still viable) the cost would only be maintenance and fuel.

    • Broncobet

      Yes, that’s right but please add in marketing (we assume very low) and profit we assume very high.

  • Billy Jackson

    Here is my issue.

    The E-cat has to be more than competitive, It must be dominant. Just competative means that its not producing COP’s of +XXX (what ever number) .. If the plans are to sell 1 MW plants for millions then you need to not only be competitive but so dominant that their is no other logical choice.

    You’re knocking on the doors of the big energy companies, with a chance on cutting into their slice of the pie. while i give the green movement its due.. getting a check out of me for 7 digits thats “competitive” isn’t going to do it.. i can bargain with the energy company with the threat of moving away from them to a better alternative to get a discount..

    Either we are missing something, misunderstanding something, or 1+1 does not equal 2 in this equation.. someone came in a few months ago that had a pretty good rate of prediction with the inside scoop that the scientists that did the tests were leaning toward a COP of 18. true or not .. lets just use that number as a basis for now .. we can adjust to the true numbers later..

    18 x’s the energy out as in.. should be far more than just “competitive” .. i cant think of any scenario that uses large amounts of energy that i wouldnt want an E-Cat to lower the cost of the overhead… maybe this was just a poor choice of words. .its not the first..but “competitive” is not the slightest bit interesting for a device like the e-cat.. competitive changes nothing.

    • tobalt

      He is talking about installation costs, not running costs as is clear also from the units he chooses. Running costs should be indeed dominant over other energy sources.

      @all you should not mix up power and energy in your own and other people’s argumentation.

      • Billy Jackson

        Thank You Tobalt.

    • The first units of anything are typically the most expensive. Once E-Cat plants are standardized they should — from everything we’ve been told about them — be much less expensive than other energy production plants. That the first plant is already very competitive (and that’s kind of ambiguous) is actually great news.

      • Billy Jackson

        Hand built is always going to be more expensive.. the cost of mass manufacturing will lower overall costs this is a given.. when he says competitive, it leaves me unsure in which manner he is speaking.. competitive overall? Costs + Delivery+ installation + running over 2 years? .. or is the output competitive with current rates? if its output.. it leaves me very unexcited.. output is where the e-cat must dominate if its to stand a chance for mass market.. competitive leaves it out in the cold except for some niche environments.

        • But if Rossi said something unambiguous we would all be confused and disoriented for days. We must learn to love the ambiguity.

          • Billy Jackson

            since it says production cost of $/kw i am taking that as production of the output .. not construction of the device..using words like competitive casts doubts on the e-cats ability to perform as expected [edited] .. while i know that we dont have anything official yet since we are all waiting on the latest test..its still highly disappointing that the word competitive is being used… to me it puts the e-cat in a different category. [sorry for the edit]

          • But the only continuous costs would be the nickel charge and any maintenance — both expected to be trivial relative to the initial plant construction and installation.

          • Billy Jackson

            you also have the 1/3rd electric cost of maintaining the ecat’s reaction (remember the waves that spiked up and down to keep the reaction stable? they would turn it on and off which equated to about 1/3rd the energy)

          • True. That would be $0 though in the high COP scenario where the plant is generating electricity and a portion of the electricity is used for the E-Cat. It depends how they’ve designed the plant. That’s likely a bridge too far for this first commercial plant, which I expect will be heat-only.

          • clovis ray

            Dr. Rossi said he would out sell the china because of price, he could build them cheaper, by using robots, and assembly lines, a lot has changer since then but the premiss is the same .

        • HS61AF91

          Perhaps by competitive he means it will be comfortably embraced by buyers, and not scary like you can not believe that so much power is to be had, or that there is not enough advantage over conventional devices to make purchase attractive. Competitive = economically acceptable.?

    • bachcole

      Total domination of the energy market based upon delivering an excellent product at an absurdly lower cost. I like domination.

    • LENR4you

      The eCat would be:
      dominant if ROI <3 years
      competitive if ROI <8 years

      • And something to kill for if the first x takers get free installation, free maintenance and free heat for x months, in exchange for allowing a controlled number of qualified visitors including press.

      • Hope4Dbest

        The problem being that no one knows how long an Ecat will last. It’s not just a matter of being a design with a COP of X, this is a new company. Will the final product be a Mercedes Benz or a Yugo?

        • clovis ray

          In the cat itself, there are no moving parts to wear out, now the gen set will be different.

          • Broncobet

            You can forget about any gen set ,he’s made it clear that steam will be the product which is just as well as he has nowhere close to the amount of money to design a steam turbine ,let alone build one. It doesn’t matter, if he can produce cheap steam, he’ll be a trillionaire, then he would build power plant which would hopefully be a Brayton cycle like a jet engine with steam only for the remenats of heat or bottoming cycle.

          • clovis ray

            oh, no, Dr.Rossi knows all about the gen sets, he had siemens working on the problem long ago, not sure what the load will be on the demo model, may just be heat to dry bricks, i think IH has a facility for that purpose, somewhere.

          • Broncobet

            Yes he knows all about them that he can’t afford one. He didn’t have Siemens working on it for him. Rossi has quite rightly focused his efforts on just producing steam ,if he can do that well enough he’ll be a trillionaire and the world will be changed somewhat. Rossi was also right about mentioning a turbine, you can purchase one for cash unlike steam turbines that are custom made.They need high heat and are very efficient. Drying bricks would be perfect ,there are millions of things to do that require nothing more than heat. Think of our ancestors finding a forest fire and bringing fire home for the first time and we’ve been improving it ever since.

    • clovis ray

      Hi, Bob.
      I remember when Dr. Rossi, was on his own, and was explaining how his home unit would work, i forget the dimensions of the unit, but it was to cost 800.00 u.s. and would fit in your utility closet, and would produce, enough energy for your home, fuel for the reactor, would cost 60.00 u.s.for a fuel cartridge every 6 months . and there would be so much transmuted material in the core that the used core would pay back the inital cost of the NI powder.

      as i see it, for the one they will show, will also be the same, 15k/w units, and he just hooks them together until you get the heat they want, the hot cat’s are different, but the old cat is tried and true and has been studied more closely, they don’t want another f/p type incident.

      • Broncobet

        So they used to transmute but don’t anymore?

        • clovis ray

          Broncobet, i don’t know, whats going on, what part of the core material, is changed, that the core material would have to be changed out every six months, i haven’t heard lately, as to how long the core material lasts. you would think, from what is being said, that nothing at all is being changed or transmuted.

          • Broncobet

            I’m with you I don’t know either and I sweep it under the rug for now, if we really thought about it or had invested with this group it would be troubling.

    • Broncobet

      I thought it very mature of Rossi to say costs would be “competitive” as people designing new types of power plants, don’t have a good handle on costs.

  • mcloki

    It’s early. Why give it away for a huge discount. Companies will jump ship for a 15-25% cost savings. Maybe even less. So rather than not make that money. Rossi and IH will keep the cost artificially high to fund future development of the product. And only lower it when they are forced to through competition. Sorry guys this isn’t a hippie paradise. the e-cat will cost money, just like everything else. The direct benefits we’ll see will be in other areas like lower pollution and Better devices to buy. ie a better longer lasting electric car.

    • Maybe. Many businesses would. In this case that would contradict Industrial Heat’s stated goal of as wide a dissemination as possible.

      Many businesses would also opt for an initial market share surge in an attempt to maximize future profits (rather than near-term profits), stifle any competition, establish their brand and help open up what is almost an infinite market.

      • mcloki

        Not really a contradiction. Widely distributed and expensive are mutually exclusive.
        First Teslas are a good example. High initial price funds next generation development.

    • Billy Jackson

      some of that is offset by the life of the product.. its fine if initial investment is high. but overall return over time has to show a savings.. aka if they buy it for 5 million but it saves them a million a year ..that’s fine for a big business perfectly legitimate..after the 5th year you start to see a return of +1m per year/life of machine.. thats what makes it attractive and worth it. (and you are right .. people would faint at some of the monthly electric bills of the major manufacturers)

      • Daniel Maris

        The news just gets better…

        The engine is fuelled…now, please, let’s have ignition.

        • deleo77

          Some people (i.e. skeptics) will say that Rossi has spoken of plants being factories before. But consider that Rossi is now an employee at IH, and IH has investors. For Rossi to make a public material statement such as this and have it be a total lie, would be a fraudulent act, and the investors could take legal action, even if IH is a private company. So I do believe Rossi that an e-cat is now at a third party site. The question only is, has it been started up, and if so, how is it performing so far?

  • mcloki

    It’s early. Why give it away for a huge discount. Companies will jump ship for a 15-25% cost savings. Maybe even less. So rather than not make that money. Rossi and IH will keep the cost artificially high to fund future development of the product. And only lower it when they are forced to through competition. Sorry guys this isn’t a hippie paradise. the e-cat will cost money, just like everything else. The direct benefits we’ll see will be in other areas like lower pollution and Better devices to buy. ie a better longer lasting electric car.

    • Maybe. Many businesses would. In this case that would contradict Industrial Heat’s stated goal of as wide a dissemination as possible.

      Many businesses would also opt for an initial market share surge in an attempt to maximize future profits (rather than near-term profits), stifle any competition, establish their brand and help open up what is almost an infinite market.

      • mcloki

        Not really a contradiction. Widely distributed and expensive are mutually exclusive.
        First Teslas are a good example. High initial price funds next generation development.

    • Billy Jackson

      some of that is offset by the life of the product.. its fine if initial investment is high. but overall return over time has to show a savings.. aka if they buy it for 5 million but it saves them a million a year ..that’s fine for a big business perfectly legitimate..after the 5th year you start to see a return of +1m per year/life of machine.. thats what makes it attractive and worth it. (and you are right .. people would faint at some of the monthly electric bills of the major manufacturers)

  • Paul

    If they want to sell an E-Cat keeping the price artificially high they will lose the race, like hundreds of other technologies in the past. They will win ONLY if also the price is a game-changer!

    • mcloki

      Only when they have competition. Look at Tesla, Honda. Now that there’s competition, prices will come down. I’m not saying that the prices won;t go down. I’m just saying that IH and Rossi won’t leave money on the table.

      • Paul

        No, because they have all media against them, if they want win they need make a price gap, believe me… I work in this field

    • Ophelia Rump

      What is the formula for determining artificially high price for a radically new technology?
      If no one wants the technology, it is a fire-sale.
      If they love the technology, it is highest bidder wins.
      In the middle, you negotiate.

      • Paul

        Simple, for the energy field. Only about 10% less the competiting technologies (in this case for producing energy) is artificially high. The price gap should be much greater for technologies not tested for years ion the market, like the E-Cat is. If you sell energy you have not problem of price, if you sell a product you need a customer attracted buy a low price otherwise he will not take the risk for a little saving, be sure…

    • Broncobet

      Actually , since it seems to be carbon free, the price of energy from Ecats would be higher. It doesn’t matter if CO2 is raising temperatures are not, the point is many people believe it is.

  • In X years:

    Coal = Dead. Mining and transportation costs plus pollution concerns.

    Nuclear = Dead. High plant costs and radioactive waste. Safety concerns.

    Oil = Life support. Extraction costs and pollution concerns. Still needed for plastics and other uses though.

    Wind = Dead. Installation costs and intermittent supply.

    NatGas = Long sunset. Extraction and transportation costs; pollution and fracking concerns. It will not go down easy… though the construction of new plants should tail off once LENR plants are a common option, it will take a long time for home heating and cooling to be primarily LENR-based.

    Solar = Survivor/Complementary. Can provide small mobile sources of electricity on a scale LENR likely will not be able to match any time soon. Price has been plummeting and technology advances rapid. Large centralized solar plants will likely be retired as unnecessary.

  • Jouni Tuomela

    I am wondering, will the basic block of the plant be one suitable for household energy also, or will it be specially designed for bigger power. Seems that Mr. Rossi has before used multiplication only. Nice to see which way he has chosen.

    • The E-Cat reactor could easily be engineered to produce all the heat and electricity for households or neighborhoods.

      The problem is certification for residential use. Rossi backed off his home E-Cat strategy when it became evident that hours and hours of experience with industrial E-Cat plants was a necessary precursor to doing anything on the residential front and getting the certifications/permissions for that market.

      • Rossi has said that he still does not have electricity production. To me that means a COP of less than 10. If the Hot Cat is driven by natural gas instead of electricity, then the COP does not matter as long as it is high enough to justify the expense. So, even with a COP of only 6, a natural gas Hot Cat can generate electricity for home use if it is hooked up to your natural gas lines.

        I think Defkalion’s electrically driven design will have a COP over 20, so Defkalion’s Hyperion reactors should be able to generate electricity efficiently right away as long as the temperature is high enough.

        The Solar Hydrogen Trends device, if real, would probably beat all the other players and could be incorporated into homes, cars, aircraft, ships, trains, everything at lightning speed. I hope it is real, but we need one full third party test with the inside works revealed to the testers.

        • Broncobet

          I think that SHT should be ignored and that to start, the Ecat over the Hotcat and industrial over domestic. AR’s approach is correct, just produce hot water there’s trillions of dollars in that market, of course they will try working on Hotcats as these would be much more efficient for electricity. That is where you use turbines with a steam cycle after the air has passed through the turbine.

          • Broncobet

            Re reading I’m wrong ,they will be making steam.

        • Broncobet

          So you’re saying that the higher the COP claimed by a company the better?

    • Lux Terrea

      I think that this technology, once it becomes mainstream in power plant production, will be dismantled by the common man and recomposed in much smaller format that can be run in one’s basememnt or back yard shed. Even if gov’t regulations keep a residential or portable version illegal I believe garage engineers will eventually be able to build them and use them “under the table” so to speak. I know I would.

      • Brokeeper

        I think IH & Rossi are stratigizing to pick the easiest and quickest low hanging fruit to be first to capitalize on LENR and to be first to draw large revenue to ready infrastructure for much needed bigger domestic D-Cat R&D. It’s about acceleration to maintain leadership.

        • bachcole

          Precisely.

      • Broncobet

        Just like we did with flubber.

    • Ophelia Rump

      The description I read puts a single housed core in a four foot long by one and one half foot diameter Pipe. My guess is that unit would power five households, while idling. I am guessing 50kWhr to 100.

      But that is just my guess. Scaling this down is easy, scaling it up was the challenge.

      • Jouni Tuomela

        Ok, thanks. Though those foot and legs and arms are uncomprehensible to me, cause I am afraid that there are variants from country to country etc.
        World, please start using metrics.

  • Daniel Maris

    That’s an assumption on your part. It might be that the E Cat requires more maintenance. Modern coal burning plants don’t have many staff.

  • Billy Jackson

    Thank You Tobalt.

  • The E-Cat reactor could easily be engineered to produce all the heat and electricity for households or neighborhoods.

    The problem is certification for residential use. Rossi backed off his home E-Cat strategy when it became evident that hours and hours of experience with industrial E-Cat plants was a necessary precursor to doing anything on the residential front and getting the certifications/permissions for that market.

    • Christopher Calder

      Rossi has said that he still does not have electricity production. To me that means a COP of less than 10. If the Hot Cat is driven by natural gas instead of electricity, then the COP does not matter as long as it is high enough to justify the expense. So, even with a COP of only 6, a natural gas Hot Cat can generate electricity for home use if it is hooked up to your natural gas lines.

      I think Defkalion’s electrically driven design will have a COP over 20, so Defkalion’s Hyperion reactors should be able to generate electricity efficiently right away as long as the temperature is high enough.

      The Solar Hydrogen Trends device, if real, would probably beat all the other players and could be incorporated into homes, cars, aircraft, ships, trains, everything at lightning speed. I hope it is real, but we need one full third party test with the inside works revealed to the testers.

  • mecatfish

    I would like to see an Ecat log that I can put in my woodburner.

    • Otto1923

      No you wouldn’t. Burning nickel powder is toxic.

      • mecatfish

        No Silly, but the ECat core in my woodburner instead of burning wood. Seems like a simple retrofit.

  • mecatfish

    I would like to see an Ecat log that I can put in my woodburner.

    • Otto1923

      No you wouldn’t. Burning nickel powder is toxic.

      • mecatfish

        No Silly, but the ECat core in my woodburner instead of burning wood. Seems like a simple retrofit.

  • Lux Terrea

    I think that this technology, once it becomes mainstream in power plant production, will be dismantled by the common man and recomposed in much smaller format that can be run in one’s basememnt or back yard shed. Even if gov’t regulations keep a residential or portable version illegal I believe garage engineers will eventually be able to build them and use them “under the table” so to speak. I know I would.

    • BroKeeper

      I think IH & Rossi are stratigizing to pick the easiest and quickest low hanging fruit to be first to capitalize on LENR and to be first to draw large revenue to ready infrastructure for much needed bigger domestic D-Cat R&D. It’s about acceleration to maintain leadership.

  • “… so far. I can say, though, that the production cost in $/Kw is very competitive with the cost of power of traditional power and heat generation systems.”

    I think Rossi just slipped as far as the “could be positive could be negative” business. I don’t care if the Ecat breaks even, it’s the proof of CF that will alter the world. Skepto scientist like Ernie Moniz from MIT, an energy advisor to the president will have no place to stand and will have to answer some tough questions. Young college students will begin a new CF generation and the world will drastically change. Right now how much profit the Ecat will make is getting ahead of the CF Bang.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      “Please, may I have a cup of tea?”
      Yes, if we don’t run out of tea bags.

      • Mats002

        Or water…

    • Broncobet

      I agree. Just show a cop over one, that would start a process, of course the bigger the better, and better within six months than a year.

  • Ophelia Rump

    The description I read puts a single housed core in a four foot long by one and one half foot diameter Pipe. My guess is that unit would power five households, while idling. I am guessing 50kWhr to 100.

    But that is just my guess. Scaling this down is easy, scaling it up was the challenge.

  • Andy Kumar

    “Maybe he forgot to put his ‘positive or negative’ disclaimer here.”

    After waiting for three years to see a happy ending to this story, I feel that we are being mocked (teased?) when I hear that results could be positive or negative. Does anyone else feel the same way?

    • Ophelia Rump

      I am not being mocked or teased, but I am fairly certain that you are.

      • GreenWin

        That’s… very funny!

        • blanco69

          Witty put downs aside, I’m fairly certain I’m being teased at least. Two years ago we were talking about a new era of boundless, almost free, energy and and end to our long suffering carbon economy. Now we’re enthusiastically assessing a competitively priced water heater! A long, drawn out, tease in my book. Happy to eat my hat when the teasing stops and the facts start to appear.

          • Frank Acland

            I think we’ve always known that the E-Cat is a heater which can heat water and make steam, etc — it will be no surprise to me if we find the first plant being used to make steam. One big question is how cheaply can you do it. If it is significantly cheaper than what people are doing now, I think it will be a revolutionary technology.

            The bigger issue in my mind is what this first plant will show. If large amounts of heat are generated by a previously unknown method of manipulating matter and only tiny amounts of fuel are consumed in the process, then I think we do have something I think can potentially disrupt the carbon economy. The first plant could be highly significant, but I think more interesting will be what will happen with this technology over time when people realize that a new way of creating energy is possible. If bright scientific minds and significant budgets are put into R&D we could see great progress made in the field.

          • bachcole

            When Rossi choose to go the commercial route, which I think was the correct decision, he also brought upon himself a higher standard for success. Investors don’t really care if the Rossi effect will revolutionize particle physics. They just want a product that will give them a good return on their investment. So, choosing the commercial route was NOT without it’s challenges and issues.

          • Jouni Tuomela

            This is the most significant aspect. Even if the net energy gain would be little, will concrete working evidence only show that cold fusion is for real.
            Big public will not read any reports, but headlines from yellow press.
            Then only will politicians have to face the thing.
            Hope they already have been hinted, though.

          • Ophelia Rump

            I will go you one step further, IH should have the discipline to focus upon the nature of their product being the production of heat. They need to promote and support the experts in every other field to incorporate the IH products into well engineered technology of every nature.

            Industrial Heat can never do justice to the potential of the technology if it becomes distracted and tries to reinvent all of technology in it’s own image.

            The need for their technical expertise and an ever diversifying line of core heat delivery products is a large enough task. They might look for output in the form of other energy types but they should stick to their own technology, delivering core energy production modules.

          • georgehants

            Ophelia, although not necessarily disagreeing, we must keep an open-mind to everything that we do not have clear Evidence for.
            Mr. Rossi, certainly and IH hopefully are doing all they can to make their Cold Fusion a success.
            Everybody will have their own ideas of how that should be done, but time for a little faith in them and leave any criticism until we are clear of any mistakes.
            In this corupt capitalist World the problems are legion.

          • bachcole

            You forgot to mention how wonderful things are in North Korea and how every attempt to establish a utopian regime works out so wonderfully.

          • Broncobet

            Why produce steam that has a hundred different issues. To begin ,produce hot water, the market for that is vast.

          • Broncobet

            True, but remember Rossi is against any money from the government being spent on research on LENR.

          • psi2u2

            Thanks again for such an excellent synoptic response to the naysayers.

          • bachcole

            Bertha Benz takes her famous first automobile trip on 5 August 1888 and the peanut gallery imagined that a Ferrari with a beautiful woman sitting in the passenger seat would be available by the Summer of 1891. You are the victim of our excessive enthusiasm. I apologize for our gago-ness.

            But, deductive reasoning is allowed. It works: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.3913.pdf Most human beings are greedy, ambitious, charitable, hardworking, clever, innovative, etc. Rossi, Darden, and Vaughn are particularly noted for several of those qualities. Therefore, it is going to happen. How long it will take is a much different question. Bertha probably did not imagine the engineering problems of just the highways; forget about the car per se and traffic lights and automobile insurance. She probably didn’t even imagine gasoline and all of the time, development energy, capital, biochemical engineering, geological engineering, and etc. that went into just that wet stuff.

          • GreenWin

            blanco, this is the standard response to “What’re we waiting for?” skeptics:

            Hot fusion: 63 years of promises, $250 Billion TAXPAYER dollars = ZERO, ZED, not ONE Watt of useful energy. A long drawn out tease in anyone’s book!
            “The Problems with ITER and the Fading Dream of Fusion Energy”
            http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fusions-missing-pieces-iter-problems/

          • Broncobet

            They spent most of that money on thermonuclear weapons which fuses hydrogen just fine. Remember president Kennedy ? “We chose to do these things not because they are easy we choose to do them because they are hard”. I find fusion efforts interesting and one or more of them might work. Fission energy one the other hand is producing rivers of safe clean energy. All of the used nuclear fuel from commercial nuclear plants in the US for the past fifty years would fit on a football field,if we run it through an advanced reactor not only do we receive fifty times more energy it reduces the used fuel to a size that would fit under a small table. If LENR works at a hundred times less utility than claimed, well of course we don’t need any of the other sources.

          • psi2u2

            ” rivers of safe clean energy…” Huh?

          • GreenWin

            Bronco may mean the $150B – BILLION taxpayer dollars that will still NOT clean up the nuclear waste dump at Hanford, WA. http://columbiariverkeeper.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/hanford_and_the_river_final2.pdf

            A nuclear site BTW, that the US Department of Justice had to bring criminal charges against contractor CH2MHill for fraud. http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2013/March/13-civ-275.html

            Just another case of the local “nuclear mafia” effing planet Earth.

          • Broncobet

            Hanford??? That was nuclear energy??? That’s typical know nothing anti nuke propaganda, Hanford was involved in weapons production, say it slowly weapons.

          • psi2u2

            Uhu.

          • Broncobet

            No, those were insults but with out wit.

  • Omega Z

    HM.-“how much did it cost to build in parts and materials.”

    AR.-“cost in $/Kw is very competitive with the cost of power of traditional power and heat generation systems.”

    If the question was understood & answered as such, This is a hardware verses hardware cost comparison. Not energy. According to A.R. it is cost competitive?

    I find this interesting & assume the 1Mw capacity contributes much to the reason it is cost competitive. Even with Fossil energy, the hardware is expensive at this scale. You’ll usually find Nickel alloy steel used in burner tubes $$$.

    However, If I should find latter that a 1Mw E-cat costs more then a conventional 1Mw heater, I will not be surprised.
    What “Competitive” means can be a matter of perspective.
    Even if it should costs say 20% more, the fact that it will produce large savings can Skew the answer to HM’s question.
    Thus, When A.R. says it is very competitive, His perspective could be that considering the cost savings, it is very competitive.

  • Omega Z

    Considering numbers put together for Green Energies replacing most fossil fuels, an optimistic guess-

    X=50

  • Sandy

    If the cost of generating electricity and heat with an E-Cat is “very competitive” with the cost of generating electricity and heat with traditional systems then we can reasonably assume that the E-Cat is producing at least six times more energy than it consumes.

    • Ophelia Rump

      If we were to make the assumption that the controls system simply remained the same while the size of the reactor core increased to it’s present size, rather than having the surface of a six inch length of two inch diameter pipe, now having the surface of a four foot by 1.5 foot diameter pipe, then the COP might be guessed at increasing proportionately to the outer surface. With the assumption that the stabilization has remained the same. The COP might be derived.

      Length x Circumference
      Old hot cat outer dimensions approx
      6″ x 12.56″ = 75 square inches surface.

      Industrial Version Hot-Cat
      48″ x 94″ x 4512 square inches surface

      4512 / 75 = 60

      So if the Original Hot-Cat had a COP of 3, the current Hot-Cat might have a COP of (3 x 60) 180. Presuming it is using the original control system which has not been scaled up, and that the heat dissipation requirements for the surface have remained the same per square inch.

      • Christina

        Wow! That’s amazing.

        I mean to say it’s an amazing thing and am not in any way defaming or casting aspersions or denigrations.

        Have a good day and may God bless you.

        Christina

        • Ophelia Rump

          Yes, I agree it is amazing. It is also a relatively small rate of flow considering the size of the energy reservoir. A mere fraction of a percent of the potential.

          Of course it is just a speculative number.

  • Ophelia Rump

    If we were to make the assumption that the controls system simply remained the same while the size of the reactor core increased to it’s present size, rather than having the surface of a six inch length of two inch diameter pipe, now having the surface of a four foot by 1.5 foot diameter pipe, then the COP might be guessed at increasing proportionately to the outer surface. With the assumption that the stabilization has remained the same. The COP might be derived.

    Length x Circumference
    Old hot cat outer dimensions approx
    6″ x 12.56″ = 75 square inches surface.

    Industrial Version Hot-Cat
    48″ x 94″ x 4512 square inches surface

    4512 / 75 = 60

    So if the Original Hot-Cat had a COP of 3, the current Hot-Cat might have a COP of 180. Presuming it is using the original control system which has not been scaled up, and that the heat dissipation requirements for the surface have remained the same per square inch.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    This is going to be a problem, skeptics are going to say in comparison to what. There will be no direct comparison to the cost before the e-cat was installed. This kind of installation will give skeptics/bashers a chance to refute the results. Rossi/IH should have replaced an existing heat source so there is a clear before and after cost savings. Financial types making the decision are not technical they will not pull the trigger if there are questions about production.

    • Omega Z

      Bernie
      In a production setting, there are no exact numbers. There’s to many variables. Doesn’t matter if you change it out for an old system or install it in a new line side by side another.

      That said, They do have very reliable expectations over a period of months. Even if it were a new facility with just this 1 production line. But your probably right. The skeps will have fun with this. They are of no concern in this setting. Only those involved in the trade can judge this. The customer will know if it delivers.

      This is also important to Rossi/IH. Simulated runs are one thing. Actually working in real world production is another. Under these circumstances, Positive or Negative really is an unknown to Rossi/IH.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        After six months the gas or electric meter will read xxxxx, what will they compare it to, a gas meter or electric meter from another plant? The owner will of course have a feel for the amount of dollars saved, but the ambiguity could have been avoided.

        • Omega Z

          I don’t think you understand what I’m saying.
          In production facilities, there are no constants. There are Only ballpark approximations & averages with fairly large +/- range.
          These numbers can already be supplied by equipment manufactures with years of history & circumstances. These are the numbers that Rossi/IH will compare to. The customer will only be able to give you ballpark statements. It appears to provide savings or substantial savings, but nothing precise.

          Where this projects biggest importance lies is in real world work. How does it respond when energy is drawn from it. The quenching effect we’ve discussed before here at ECW. If it can’t accomplish work under these circumstances, Even COP>100 is of no use. And the Skeps will really have a heyday.

    • Ophelia Rump

      At some point, bashing something which is obviously working in a superior way becomes counter productive.

      The bashing only draws attention to the thing being maligned unjustly.
      Let them bash. An operating plant is well beyond the point of obviousness for anyone qualified to make an actual judgement. Products are judged on single digit superiority in efficiency every day. A product which returns double digit benefit will get attention. A product which gets hundreds of percent improvement will cause a gold rush.

      • situation is already obvious for many corps.
        simply they are like a chicken facing a knife… considering how they can use that for their business, without getting wounded.

    • Ronzonni

      Bernie, if the ecat works as advertised, there is absolutely nothing critics and skeptics can do to suppress it’s rapid development. Cheap, easily portable energy is simply too compelling.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      They could compare it to ITER.

      • psi2u2

        Lol.

  • Bernie777

    The decision to buy or not buy the E-cat as a heat source will be decided by a financial guy, black and white, there can be no ambiguity as to productivity, and the decision will be made based on Return on Investment.

    • the PR guy will also consider the pro and cons…

      the hard decision will be for those who will consider making a transition in their product line.

    • Martin Leonard

      ..and the politician: steam for the romans was a bridge too far. Lets hope we (the slaves) with the tools (internet) of today, can convince them we are ready to take the plunge.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    The decision to buy or not buy the E-cat as a heat source will be decided by a financial guy, black and white, there can be no ambiguity as to productivity, and the decision will then be made based on Return on Investment.

    • the PR guy will also consider the pro and cons…

      the hard decision will be for those who will consider making a transition in their product line.

    • Martin Leonard

      ..and the politician: steam for the romans was a bridge too far. Lets hope we (the slaves) with the tools (internet) of today, can convince them we are ready to take the plunge.

      • Broncobet

        They had steam, their bathhouses were an important institution to them, but of course they didn’t have high pressure steam doing useful work.

    • Ronzonni

      Well, Bernie, keep in mind that if the report results are positive, the future will be a never ending stream of improvements and developments. The productivity and comparative worth of the ecat should then evolve upwards for a long time. It’s unlikely that Rossi has thought of every way to make it more efficient. In fact, looking critically at the hot cat and megawatt plant pictures, it’s pretty likely that he hasn’t come close.

      It’s hard to believe that if the ecat works as advertised, it will take long before it is used almost everywhere a source of space heating in buildings is required. Even if it never gets past that (and it soon would) that is an absolutely gigantic application. Billions of units could be sold just to keep people warm cheaply and efficiently (remember 6:1 COP or better) anywhere they are. Even if the ecat requires electricity, you can always make that from solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen fuel cell, or even a simple fuel-powered generator. And whatever electricity you make, the ecat provides 6x the heat energy. Oh yes, there is a huge market for something like this!

      • Broncobet

        Not in the US we already have heat in natural gas, if we want electricity we burn natural gas.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Frank, Some confusion has crept into your numbering in the updates, you say:

    “UPDATE #4 (Aug 11, 2014)

    Second update to this thread today”

    The actual updates are number 1, 2, 4. Did you accidentally lose update #3?

  • Ophelia Rump

    Frank, Some confusion has crept into your numbering in the updates, you say:

    “UPDATE #4 (Aug 11, 2014)

    Second update to this thread today”

    I think I get the first and second update of today, but numbering would clarify.

    The actual updates are number 1, 2, 4. Did you accidentally lose update #3?

  • bachcole

    “massive vibration in the field of anxiety” I had one of those early this morning with a really bad nightmare. Just kidding. (:->) But what does that mean? I am pretty sure that we are missing something in translation.

    • Ophelia Rump

      It is what happens when you frighten a physicist. Freud collides with field theory causing a cascade effect in the psyche.

      • A clash of prefrontal cortex with reptilian brain resulting in a destabilised hippocampus. Or what you said.

        • Ophelia Rump

          The hippos should never have been allowed on campus in the first place.

          • 🙂 !

          • GreenWin

            Reading this is like having a Zoo in your head.

          • Gerard McEk

            :))!

          • Göran Jansson

            That was hip and camp! Ten stars to you, Ophelia

          • Sounds like a “Tom Swifty”.

  • Ronzonni

    @Admin

    Maybe you could please ask Rossi *why* the report is taking so long and *when* it can be expected. Surely, he can contact the professor team for that information. That way his anxiety and ours could be relieved at the same time :-)!

    There is nothing about those particular questions which is either secret or proprietary! Of course Rossi can’t and mustn’t influence the team in any way but simply asking why the delay and when to expect a report wouldn’t be inappropriate influence, I would think.

    • Frank Acland

      This question has been asked in various ways numerous ways, and the answer given is always largely the same — e.g. “The work of the Third Independent Party does not depend on me, as I wrote repeatedly. I must ask that the discussions about the report are put on hold until it will be published. I do not know, and cannot know when it will be ready and cannot provide any better information. I understand your feeling, I am very anxious too, but we must be patient.”

      I don’t feel like pressing him again on the issue. But someone else might like to pose your question — you could ask on the JONP yourself.

    • GreenWin

      Ronzoni, I guarantee some funding for you to go to DOE and ask Ernie Moniz, “*Why* unlimited fusion energy is taking so long and *when* it can be expected.” We’ve been financing it for 62 years to the tune of $250B tax dollars. That’s regular folks’ income tax dollars Ronnie. People who scrape day in and out to make ends meet. WTF Ernie???

      • Broncobet

        Funny.

      • Ronzonni

        Well, obviously, hot fusion research has been wildly expensive and has yielded no power. On the other hand, Ernie Moniz doesn’t claim to have power plants for sale with a four month delivery schedule to end users and he doesn’t say that he shipped multiple power plants already which are working well for the customer. He also has not told people that he has a definitive test of a completed, working reactor going on right now by renown university professors.

        If Ernie Moniz had said he had finished products in the hands of consumers and testers, I’d have expected him to answer the same questions that I suggested for Mr. Rossi.

    • psi2u2

      You don’t appear to know much about academic publishing. Peer review, followed by revision, takes a long time, even under the best and least controversial circumstances. The report is definitely NOT “taking so long.” I say this as someone with twenty years of experience writing and publishing academic articles in the humanities, the last six of them as the editor of a peer reviewed journal. It would be normal for an article, from submission to publication, to take up to a year before actually appearing in print. The report was finished, based on our best information, no more than a few weeks ago. Despite Ing. Rossi’s own optimistic projections, I will be very pleasantly surprised if it appears before the end of this month.

  • hempenearth

    A bit off topic but if I was IH’s marketing manager I’d be opening the 1 MW unit to the public in Kittyhawk. Not sure though if Kittyhawk has much industry, but it is already famous.

    • bachcole

      I love the idea, but I understand that it may be too windy at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina. (:->) Seriously, it may be too small. Kitty Hawk is known to me for only one reason, and other than that I never heard of the place. Anyway, the E-Cat could be bigger than manned flight. Perhaps somewhere in the Fertile Crescent where agriculture was first developed. I can’t help myself. Wherever the plant is, it should get a memorial plaque at least.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        I have the exclusive sneak preview of the opening.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWs3c3YNs4

      • Ophelia Rump

        The Georgia Guidestones monument for the coming apocalypse would be a good location.

        The “Apocalypse has been cancelled tour”.

        http://archive.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/ff_guidestones?currentPage=all

        • GreenWin

          I’m with Yoko on this. This monument would be unnecessary if humanity listened to a remarkably simple message: “War is over if you want it.” Rather than the Apocalypse tour, how about a “Concert for Abundance.” Not to ask for abundance. But to acknowledge that “There IS enough.” If you want it.

          XO Yoko. 🙂

          • Ophelia Rump

            I hope you did not think I was supporting the apocalypse!
            Abundance sounds lovely, we can go with that.

          • GreenWin

            Understood OR. All together now. 🙂

        • Alan DeAngelis
      • GreenWin

        All wonderful suggestions. But I’m a sentimental human being, and I think it would be appropriate to demonstrate a 1MW e-Cat plant at University of Utah, where two of science’s most unsung heroes, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons had the courage to announce a disruptive finding in energetic physics.

        If such a venture is manifested you can put me down for a contribution of $1.000.00.

      • It seems that kitty hawk demo was ignored for years.
        what looks like E-cat power plant is the test in France that the army bought.

        kitty hawk is the TPR1, maybe TPR2 too, or some of the earlier test (the one who did not fail, but hard to know with all the FUD spread by mary yugo even on the sucess)…

        for a reference article on Wright brothers
        http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthewrightb.pdf

        • Justin Church

          Thank you so much. Great read brother…

    • Justin Church

      Personally…I think the 1MW system should be installed and publicly demonstrated in KINSTON, NC…

  • hempenearth

    A bit off topic but if I was IH’s marketing manager I’d be opening the 1 MW unit to the public in Kittyhawk. Not sure though if Kittyhawk has much industry, but it is already famous.

    • bachcole

      I love the idea, but I understand that it may be too windy at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina. (:->) Seriously, it may be too small. Kitty Hawk is known to me for only one reason, and other than that I never heard of the place. Anyway, the E-Cat could be bigger than manned flight. Perhaps somewhere in the Fertile Crescent where agriculture was first developed. I can’t help myself. Wherever the plant is, it should get a memorial plaque at least.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        I have the exclusive sneak preview of the opening.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWs3c3YNs4

      • Ophelia Rump

        The Georgia Guidestones monument for the coming apocalypse would be a good location.

        The “Apocalypse has been cancelled tour”.

        http://archive.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/ff_guidestones?currentPage=all

        • GreenWin

          I’m with Yoko on this. This monument would be unnecessary if humanity listened to a remarkably simple message: “War is over if you want it.” Rather than the Apocalypse tour, how about a “Concert for Abundance.” Not to ask for abundance. But to acknowledge that “There IS enough.” If you want it.

          XO Yoko. 🙂

          • Ophelia Rump

            I hope you did not think I was supporting the apocalypse!
            Abundance sounds lovely, we can go with that.

          • GreenWin

            Understood OR. All together now. 🙂

        • Alan DeAngelis
      • GreenWin

        All wonderful suggestions. But I’m a sentimental human being, and I think it would be appropriate to demonstrate a 1MW e-Cat plant at University of Utah, where two of science’s most unsung heroes, Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons had the courage to announce a disruptive finding in energetic physics.

        If such a venture is manifested you can put me down for a contribution of $1.000.00.

        • bachcole

          I like the idea of such a demo being held in Salt Lake City NOT on the campus of the University of Utah and NOT sponsored by the University of Utah, but WITH a clear statement that it DOES work and the University of Utah caved in the face of pressure from academia.

      • It seems that kitty hawk demo was ignored for years.
        what looks like E-cat power plant is the test in France that the army bought.

        kitty hawk is the TPR1, maybe TPR2 too, or some of the earlier test (the one who did not fail, but hard to know with all the FUD spread by mary yugo even on the sucess)…

        for a reference article on Wright brothers
        http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthewrightb.pdf

        • Justin Church

          Thank you so much. Great read brother…

    • Andy Kumar

      Fantasy Land at Disney will be a good choice. Futuristic fantasy finally come true!!!

    • Justin Church

      Personally…I think the 1MW system should be installed and publicly demonstrated in KINSTON, NC…

  • psi2u2

    ” rivers of safe clean energy…” Huh?

  • GreenWin

    Ronzoni, I guarantee some funding for you to go to DOE and ask Ernie Moniz, “*Why* unlimited fusion energy is taking so long and *when* it can be expected.” We’ve been financing it for 62 years to the tune of $250B tax dollars. That’s regular folks’ income tax dollars Ronnie. People who scrape day in and out to make ends meet. WTF Ernie???

  • Omega Z

    We’ve speculated that September/October may bring some news.
    Tho it seems like it’s been forever, The Time is almost upon us.
    Only a few weeks now.
    Fingers Crossed. Eyes Crossed, GHvW&%#*@GsIK.
    Wait? Eyes uncrossed.
    Sorry, That didn’t work very well. 🙂

    • Ophelia Rump

      I doubt they would hire people to sit around and drink coffee for more than six weeks.

      I have to believe the people they are hiring are for production and sales, so I think this confirms the September/October time frame, I actually think it moves it up a little toward the September side.

      • Omega Z

        sit around…drink coffee…six weeks…time…for.. lunch.
        Wait, What? Oh, Sorry OR, My eyes crossed again for a second. 🙂

        Rossi says things are about to happen, But, I’m curious about what Rossi will tell us. He has stated that no information will be forth coming until after the 3rd party report. mmm Maybe he’s heard something, but not saying.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I suppose it is possible they will remain silent publicly while they go into production and begin full commercial sales.

          If they did keep a low profile for launch, I would consider that a strong indication that they already have commercial customers lined up with some pre-orders. It might indicate they have enough work to keep them busy until the report. It would give them a chance to work out any kinks in the logistics.

      • Curbina

        I was thinking this morning that a shift of emphasis of Rossi’s talks towards the 1 MW plant would be a tell tale of the possible outcome of the report not being conclusive (which IMHO is the meaning of “negative”). Just a side note on this new comment of the 1 MW plant.

        • ecatworld

          I don’t think there’s really a shift of emphasis here — from my understanding there are two independent tracks going on here, and Rossi &Co. are concentrating on the on track they have control over.

          • Curbina

            Well Frank, I agree there has not been a shift of emphasis, but I thought that it was funny that he resumed talking about the 1 MW plant suddenly after some days not mentioning it much. Just an idea I had.

    • Owen Geiger

      IH will likely want at least 2-3 months of data from the heater before going public, right? I still think publication of the TIP report, patent applications and VIP tours of the customer’s factory will all be around the same time for maximum effect.

  • Omega Z

    We’ve speculated that September/October may bring some news.
    Tho it seems like it’s been forever, The Time is almost upon us.
    Only a few weeks now.
    Fingers Crossed. Eyes Crossed, GHvW&%#*@GsIK.
    Wait? Eyes uncrossed.
    Sorry, That didn’t work very well. 🙂

    • Ophelia Rump

      I doubt they would hire people to sit around and drink coffee for more than six weeks.
      So I believe that is a fair maximum time frame before launch.

      I have to believe the people they are hiring are for production and sales, so I think this confirms the September/October time frame, I actually think it moves it up a little toward the September side. I think six weeks is a fair guess at how long it would take to spin up production and sales from job interviews to full throttle.

      • Omega Z

        sit around…drink coffee…six weeks…time…for.. lunch.
        Wait, What? Oh, Sorry OR, My eyes crossed again for a second. 🙂

        Rossi says things are about to happen, But, I’m curious about what Rossi will tell us. He has stated that no information will be forth coming until after the 3rd party report. mmm Maybe he’s heard something, but not saying.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I suppose it is possible they will remain silent publicly while they go into production and begin full commercial sales.

          If they did keep a low profile for launch, I would consider that a strong indication that they already have commercial customers lined up with some pre-orders. It might indicate they have enough work to keep them busy until the report. It would give them a chance to work out any kinks in the logistics.

    • Owen Geiger

      IH will likely want at least 2-3 months of data from the heater before going public, right? I still think publication of the TIP report, patent applications and VIP tours of the customer’s factory will all be around the same time for maximum effect.

  • Omega Z

    “Our activity is in expansion, the team is increasing. Important events are on the verge to happen.”
    Rossi/IH are increasing project size, scope & manpower.

    Food for thought. In the U.S.-
    Boiling water has been cheaper with N-Gas then Electric heaters for as long as I can remember. Add to that, In recent years, N-Gas has decreased in cost by about 60% or more.
    Presently, Electricity is increasing due to leveling up cost of Green Energy & is expected to continue.
    AND, The 1Mw E-cat is Electric powered. This would indicate the need of at least COP>3+ just to breakeven “NOW”. More latter.

    I’m Your Salesman. You want me to go out & sell Industry on using E-cat Heat. What’s My Hook. How do I hook them & reel them in for the sale. Is it Cop=6, 8, 10, what? Just something to think about. No one invests in new technology just to break even & especially when that breakeven gradually moves to the negative. Back to the beginning of this post. They are expanding…

    • Ophelia Rump

      Given that they have scaled up the size of the units considerably, if you were to presume that the control remains the same size and energy requirement, the COP might now be well over 100. Of course that is presumptuous; but within the realm of possibility.

      • wizkid

        I wouldn’t say your comment is presumptuous at all. Neither would Rossi. 🙂
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ snip here ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Andrea Rossi
        May 11th, 2013 at 6:56 PM
        Dear Ron Stringer:
        The Activator pays for itself, having a COP around 1.02, so its consumption of energy has not to be accounted for in the balance of the E-Cat, because it produces enough heat to pay for its own consumption with a 100% efficiency. The COP of the E-Cat is therefore net of the Activator’s consumpton. The COP of the E-Cat, as a matter of fact, has a zero at the denominator, but we rate it between 100 and 200 considering some parasitic consumption of energy, also bacause “infinity” makes no sense in Physics.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Thank you! Brilliant!
          I never saw that quote before.
          That is a really amazing. I am surprised we do not see that more often.

          • wizkid

            I personally thought Rossi’s statement was the “Cat’s Meow” too. [E-Cat’s Meow?] Glad you enjoyed it, it was dated BC (Before Chief Scientist ..). Here is another to taste, but the entire blog is a treasure chest …

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ snip here ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            “(THE NEW GENERATION OF HOT CATS IS MADE BY A TWO STAGE SYSTEM, MADE WITH AN ACTIVATOR WITH RESISTANCES COUPLED WITH A KIND OF CHARGE, WHICH ACTIVATES THE E-CAT WITH A DIFFERENT CHARGE). THE EFFECT IS STUNNING, WE SAW IN OUR PRIVATE TESTS, AND HAS BEEN REPLICATED BY THE THIRD INDIPENDENT PARTY.” – Complete post shown below …

            Andrea Rossi
            March 24th, 2013 at 10:53 PM
            DEAR GEORGEHANTS:
            YOUR COMMENT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE OPENS THE GATE FOR THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION:
            THE TESTS OF THE THIRD INDIPENDENT PARTY HAVE BEEN COMPLETED YESTERDAY.
            I DID NOT ATTEND, THEREFORE I DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY THE RESULTS, THAT WILL SURELY BE PUBLISHED BY THE EXAMINATORS, PROBABLY AROUND THE HALF OF APRIL. I MET THE 11 PROFESSORS AND EXPERTS THAT MADE THE TESTS AND THEY WERE VERY POSITIVE. ONE OF THEM TOLD ME ” WE GOT EVIDENCE THAT THE ‘ EFFECT’ IS REAL BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT”. I COULD NOT GET MORE INFORMATION, BECAUSE THEY NOW HAVE TO ELABORATE THE DATA TO PREPARE THE PUBLICATION. ALL THE PROFESSORS SAID THE TEST IS GONE WELL, VERY WELL. THE LAST TEST ENDED AFTER 120 HOURS OF UNINTERRUPTED OPERATION OF THE REACTORS ( THE NEW GENERATION OF HOT CATS IS MADE BY A TWO STAGE SYSTEM, MADE WITH AN ACTIVATOR WITH RESISTANCES COUPLED WITH A KIND OF CHARGE, WHICH ACTIVATES THE E-CAT WITH A DIFFERENT CHARGE). THE EFFECT IS STUNNING, WE SAW IN OUR PRIVATE TESTS, AND HAS BEEN REPLICATED BY THE THIRD INDIPENDENT PARTY.
            NOW WE PASS TO THE INDUSTRIAL ENGAGEMENTS: WE HAVE TO DELIVER OUR PLANTS BY THE END OF APRIL.
            WARM REGARDS,
            ANDREA ROSSI

            ps: Cat’s meow – Something considered to be outstanding
            Coined by American cartoonist Thomas a. Dorgan (1877-1929) whose work appears in many American newspapers. (see also Cat’s whiskers)
            Source: http://www.xmission.com/~emailbox/phrases.htm

          • georgehants

            It is interesting for everybody to note that Mr. Rossi made the announcement of the completion of the third party tests to Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

          • bachcole

            He was merely terrified that you were going chastise him for not being a real scientist.

  • Curbina

    I was thinking this morning that a shift of emphasis of Rossi’s talks towards the 1 MW plant would be a tell tale of the possible outcome of the report not being conclusive (which IMHO is the meaning of “negative”). Just a side note on this new comment of the 1 MW plant.

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t think there’s really a shift of emphasis here — from my understanding there are two independent tracks going on here, and Rossi &Co. are concentrating on the on track they have control over.

      • Curbina

        Well Frank, I agree there has not been a shift of emphasis, but I thought that it was funny that he resumed talking about the 1 MW plant suddenly after some days not mentioning it much. Just an idea I had.

    • bachcole

      You would think something off kilter, living below the Equator and all.

  • bachcole

    Per the plant being at the customer’s factory (Update #6), remember that we all are connected in multiple ways to other people, virtually all of whom think that cold fusion is bunk. The customer has children, spouses, parents, customers, prospective customers, investors, regulators, friends, pastors, politicians, newspapers, etc. etc. etc. etc. I take it as perfectly normal that the customer would be initially very shy about telling everyone “hey, we just installed a cold fusion heater in our factory”. They will probably wait until they can say that they made a big profit off of installing the cold fusion heater.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I can’t believe you forgot to mention employees.
      There will be whispers among families of employees about the new power source, which will ripple like waves upon a still pond forever outward in ever greater circles.

      • Owen Geiger

        There’s no reason to tell employees. It just a heater as far as they’re concerned. That’s all they need to know. The factory could turn into a zoo if they told everyone it’s a cold fusion reactor. I’m sure the company will want to prevent unnecessary distractions and chaos. The reactor is inside a shipping container, so the inner workings are kept secret. The installers are no doubt IH employees and so very few except upper management would know what’s going on.

        • Ophelia Rump

          It might be difficult to conceal the stream of outside executives come to tour the water heater. But yes, you have an extremely valid point.

          • Owen Geiger

            Right. At that point (after several months of gathering data) it will become public knowledge. That’s when TV crews, Frank and other VIPs are invited.

          • bachcole

            So, Frank, you’re a VIP now. Doesn’t that make your proud. (:->)

        • Sanjeev

          All an employee needs to do is google the name of his boss – Rossi, and he will know the truth.
          I think its impossible to simply tell those high IQ scientists and engineers that its only a heater. Even I won’t believe it.
          So why no leaks? Possibly a strict NDA and legal papers and lots of money stuffed into their pockets. Works well.

          • Owen Geiger

            I’m talking about employees in the customer’s factory where the heater is being installed, not IH employees.

          • bachcole

            Owen Geiger was talking about the employees of the customer.

      • bachcole

        I am sure that the customer knows this also and is striving to keep everything a secret until he has proof positive that he made a good decision.

  • “Important events are on the verge to happen.” probably refers to this, NOT to any ‘launch’ events, including publication of the TIP. Good news in its own way, but hardly electrifying at this point. It may take a month to make adjustments and iron out any problems under ‘field’ conditions, and they will then probably want 3 months or more of solid safety and cost savings data to show to potential customers, before any public disclosure is made.

    I had hoped that they were a little further along than this news indicates, so I interpret this to mean disclosure at the earliest, some time after February 2015 – assuming all goes well. I no longer believe that public awareness that there is an alternative to new nuclear power stations will come in time to stop binding contracts being signed in the UK, but perhaps the EU commission currently investigating Cameron’s back door stitch ups will bring the nuclear house of cards down anyway.

    • Broncobet

      I’m a big proponent of nuclear power but even I have a problem with the deal you’re referring to; it’s the French EPR right? They have problems constructing this in Finland and France only the Chinese have built them on time. They guaranteed them a high price for the power as well. I would suggest the American designed AP 1000. If this launch goes as plan you shouldn’t need any reactors anyway ,you still have time to cancel it.

      • Correct. Cameron and Energy Minister Ed Davey have pushed through a deal with French-based nuclear consortium AREVA (EDF Energy), that includes about £17 billion (c. $27B) of taxpayer subsidies, including power prices of nearly 3 times the going rate, rather incredibly guaranteed for 35 years. The ‘case’ for taking this decision is so full of holes it would have been chucked out long ago, if were not for the disingenuous (the polite word) support of the UK Energy Ministry, and BBC propaganda.

        “What has gone on is appalling. Ministers and MPs have been fed false information about the need for, and the cost of nuclear power. The information they have been supplied with is NOT a correct summary of the evidence held by government. They have been fed half truths and incorrect evidence on the basis of which only one decision was possible: to support more nuclear power stations. But that evidence they were given was false…….either it’s a monumental series of mistakes or the ‘nuclear lobby’ has got control of the Whitehall machine……..Governance has been corrupted by this process. The question of new nuclear power stations needs to be re-opened and decided by Parliament on the basis of the correct evidence”.

        http://www.stophinkley.org/PressReleases/pr120202CorruptionGovernance.pdf

        With EDF in deep trouble with other new builds, the Chinese State nuclear companies have been invited in as a fallback investor. If the deals are signed then cancelled, the UK taxpayer will then be liable for many billions in ‘cancellation penalties’. Either way, the nuclear industry wins, once the deals have been signed.

        http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/2550775/nuclear_power_insanity_at_taxpayers_and_consumers_expense.html

        • bachcole

          The more stubborn they are the harder they will fall.

        • Broncobet

          I just checked out the link the ecologist, total malarkey,pay no attention whatsoever to that site.They think well of Ralph Nader for example. If those people are against something I’m for it. I still don’t see how that GB edf makes sense though, both plants are way over budget and years late.I think you should have the Chinese build you a couple of CAP 1400’s for free. They would get a door to walk through to the European market.Remember this is clean energy and can run with almost no fuel cost for a hundred years, and GB will run out of power if they don’t plan for the future.The CAP 1400 is the one the Chinese want to sell, anyway good luck.

  • Broncobet

    Every time I start to waver in my belief that we’ll see a revolution in energy you print something that ropes me back in. So it sounds good anyway ,sounds believable, but of course as detractors would point out, still no hot cup of tea. If the thing works as we suspect it will, all doubts will vanish like the dew in the sun. (if)

  • psi2u2

    You don’t appear to know much about academic publishing. Peer review, followed by revision, takes a long time, even under the best and least controversial circumstances. The report is definitely NOT “taking so long.” I say this as someone with twenty years of experience writing and publishing academic articles in the humanities, the last six of them as the editor of a peer reviewed journal.

  • Broncobet

    Someone please keep an eye on the energy futures market as how can we have a new source of thermal energy with out those with inside information shorting FF’s? Previously I remarked that natural gas in 2024 was only $4,it is very cheap, but if the device works the contract could drop to below $ 2,if that happens, watch out ,here comes the age of Rossi!!

  • Christopher Calder

    A working commercial reactor that pays financial benefits to the factory owner will mean more than any scientific test. If people see they can make money with the Hot-Cat, they will want Hot-Cats of their own. Will 60 Minutes visit the factory? The factory owner should write CBS a letter and send an invitation.

    • Daniel Maris

      Aboslutely. This is, as Rossi says, the real test – just as it was for man made flight, for electric light and all the innovative technologies that have been introduced and were disputed to begin with, in varying degrees.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Profitability is all the banks will care about and in business that defines the boundaries.
      Without the banks, survival is difficult.

    • Omega Z

      TPTB came down real hard on the producer of that “60 Minutes” episode. People were reassigned, jobs threatened, Even cancellation of the show was threatened.

      They put the fear of God I mean Science into them.
      It will be a long time before any network producer sticks their neck out again on such a subject.

  • A working commercial reactor that pays financial benefits to the factory owner will mean more than any scientific test. If people see they can make money with the Hot-Cat, they will want Hot-Cats of their own. Will 60 Minutes visit the factory? The factory owner should write CBS a letter and send an invitation.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Profitability is all the banks will care about and in business that defines the boundaries.
      Without the banks, survival is difficult.

    • Omega Z

      TPTB came down real hard on the producer of that “60 Minutes” episode. People were reassigned, jobs threatened, Even cancellation of the show was threatened.

      They put the fear of God I mean Science into them.
      It will be a long time before any network producer sticks their neck out again on such a subject.

      • bachcole

        That does seem like a disproportionally harsh reaction. Do you have a source for that?

        • Omega Z

          I used to.
          It’s tabbed on my old computer, but it has a case of the herpes of the cmos I’ve never gotten around to fixing.
          They made them edit certain references from the original broadcast, but I think an original version can still be found on the net.

        • Omega Z

          Note, “60 Minutes” tends to get in trouble every so many years.
          Long ago, they did an episode about the Philadelphia Experiment.
          The Government came down on them, sent in the FCC & threatened their broadcasting license and all kinds of things trying to stop the episode being broadcast.

          The last 5 minutes of the show 60 minutes/Dan Rather told the viewers about the Government ordeal, That a person who was supposed to provide them documentation didn’t show. Was found in his car setting in drive shot in the temple. Still had an attache cuff & chain on his wrist, but the briefcase was nowhere to be found.

          Back in the day, they use to do a viewers response from the previous week. So the next week I watched it to see what was said. That week they said nothing about the previous week as if the show had never aired.

          I’ve spent a lot of time looking for any reference on the net. Most all their old episodes are available, That episode is not one of them.
          This is something I would not believe had I not seen it myself.
          Twas a wake-up call.

          • Certain governments are indistinguishable from the mafia in their methods, although their reach tends to be an order of magnitude greater.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I can’t believe you forgot to mention employees.
    There will be whispers among families of employees about the new power source, which will ripple like waves upon a still pond forever outward in ever greater circles.

    • Owen Geiger

      There’s no reason to tell employees. It just a heater as far as they’re concerned. That’s all they need to know. The factory could turn into a zoo if they told everyone it’s a cold fusion reactor. I’m sure the company will want to prevent unnecessary distractions and chaos. The reactor is inside a shipping container, so the inner workings are kept secret. The installers are no doubt IH employees and so very few except upper management would know what’s going on.

      • Ophelia Rump

        It might be difficult to conceal the stream of outside executives come to tour the water heater. But yes, you have an extremely valid point.

        • Owen Geiger

          Right. At that point (after several months of gathering data) it will become public knowledge. That’s when TV crews, Frank and other VIPs are invited.

      • Sanjeev

        All an employee needs to do is google the name of his boss – Rossi, and he will know the truth.
        I think its impossible to simply tell those high IQ scientists and engineers that its only a heater. Even I won’t believe it.
        So why no leaks? Possibly a strict NDA and legal papers and lots of money stuffed into their pockets. Works well.

        • Owen Geiger

          I’m talking about employees in the customer’s factory where the heater is being installed, not IH employees.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Thank you!
    I never saw that quote before.
    That is a really amazing quote. I am surprised we do not see that more often.

  • Fortyniner

    Correct. Cameron and Energy Minister Ed Davey have pushed through a deal with French-based nuclear consortium AREVA (EDF), that includes about 17 billion pounds of taxpayer subsidies, including power prices of nearly 3 times the going rate, guaranteed for 35 years. The ‘case’ for taking this decision is so full of holes it would have been chucked out long ago, if were not for the disingenuous (the polite word) support of the UK Energy Ministry, and BBC propaganda.

    With EDF in deep trouble with other new builds, the Chinese State nuclear companies have been dragged in as a fallback investor. If the deals are signed then cancelled, the UK taxpayer will then be liable for many billions in ‘cancellation fees’. Either way, the nuclear industry wins, once the deals are signed.

    http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/2550775/nuclear_power_insanity_at_taxpayers_and_consumers_expense.html

    • Broncobet

      I just checked out the link the ecologist, total malarkey,pay no attention whatsoever to that site.They think well of Ralph Nader for example. If those people are against something I’m for it. I still don’t see how that GB edf makes sense though, both plants are way over budget and years late.I think you should have the Chinese build you a couple of CAP 1400’s for free. They would get a door to walk through to the European market.Remember this is clean energy and can run with almost no fuel cost for a hundred years, and GB will run out of power if they don’t plan for the future.The CAP 1400 is the one the Chinese want to sell, anyway good luck.

  • georgehants

    It is interesting for everybody that Mr. Rossi made the announcement of the completion of the third party tests to Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

    • bachcole

      He was merely terrified that you were going chastise him for not being a real scientist.

  • Barbierir

    At the vortex-l mailing list there is a long surreal discussion between Axil and Jed Rothwell, the former continues to defend Defkalion with a series of inane, inconsistent and deluded arguments, while poor Jed tries fruitlessly to make him come to his senses. I find it very educational about the length we can go while trying to defend our beliefs.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
    Reviewing the events of the last 3-1/2 years I strive to be as impartial as possible, it is difficult because in real life the facts are rarely black and white but more in shades of grey. Overall I continue to agree with Frank’s assessment:
    http://www.e-catworld.com/why-i-believe-in-the-e-cat/

  • Ophelia Rump

    I am no expert but I checked yesterday. Short term is down and long term seems average.

    Chart: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CO/M

  • Omega Z

    Some wonder how you keep the employees of the customer from talking about this. How do you know they don’t talk about it. Something like-telling friends & family,

    Hey, they installed a new Siemens industrial water heater at the plant today. It’s built using surplus shipping contains to reduce cost. I’ve overheard management say this heater will save 1000’s of dollar$. I guess they must get these shipping crates just for the cost of hauling them off.

    • Daniel Maris

      I suppose you might say that about lots of things…how do pharma companies develop new drugs without their rivals getting to hear the details? How are new car designs worked on without becoming public? I guess with small teams in discrete locations, it’s not such a problem. However it is an interesting question.

      Also it shows how useless our mainstream media – a bit of investigating reporting could soon establish if Rossi was having us all on if they took a bit of interest.

      • Omega Z

        Daniel
        Have you seen how the car companies track test new cars to keep the design from being published by slick & nosy news people.
        They use foam overlays wrapped all over the vehicle to distort the shape & size.

  • Omega Z

    Some wonder how you keep the employees of the customer from talking about this. How do you know they don’t talk about it. Something like-telling friends & family,

    Hey, they installed a new Siemens industrial water heater at the plant today. It’s built using surplus shipping contains to reduce cost. I’ve overheard management say this heater will save 1000’s of dollar$. I guess they must get these shipping crates just for the cost of hauling them off.

  • Omega Z

    I used to.
    It’s tabbed on my old computer, but it has a case of the herpes of the cmos I’ve never gotten around to fixing.
    They made them edit certain references from the original broadcast, but I think an original version can still be found on the net.

  • Omega Z

    Note, “60 Minutes” tends to get in trouble every so many years.
    Long ago, they did an episode about the Philadelphia Experiment.
    The Government came down on them, sent in the FCC & threatened their broadcasting license and all kinds of things trying to stop the episode being broadcast.

    The last 5 minutes of the show 60 minutes/Dan Rather told the viewers about the Government ordeal, That a person who was supposed to provide them documentation didn’t show. Was found in his car setting in drive shot in the temple. Still had an attache cuff & chain on his wrist, but the briefcase was nowhere to be found.

    Back in the day, they use to do a viewers response from the previous week. So the next week I watched it to see what was said. That week they said nothing about the previous week as if the show had never aired.

    I’ve spent a lot of time looking for any reference on the net. Most all their old episodes are available, That episode is not one of them.
    This is something I would not believe had I not seen it myself.
    Twas a wake-up call.

    • Fortyniner

      Certain governments are indistinguishable from the mafia in their methods, although their reach tends to be an order of magnitude greater.

  • Daniel Maris

    If the Chinese built them on time that’s probably due to corruption and ignoring of safety requirements.

  • Ophelia Rump

    This was not even a confirmation that they have a production line. It sounds like further automation will be based on production demand and that probably makes great sense. Complete automation will cost many millions of dollars. I would like to know what their initial production capacity is projected to be. How many units do they hope to be able to ship the first quarter?

    • Daniel Maris

      I think setting up production will take a relatively short time. As far as I can make out the actual mechanisms involved are not that complicated – nothing like auto or plane manufacture for instance.

      What has to be shown first is how well they work in an operational setting. Do they require five guys watching dials all the time? Or can they operate automatically with little human input? Are they reliable? How much outage time is there? Is the energy production consistent and stable in an operational setting? I imagine those are the sorts of questions that need to be addressed before they move into production.

      Let’s hope we get the test results soon, as a lot more may become clear then.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Yes!

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Today, UN Climate Summit will commence in New York:

          http://www.un.org/climatechange/summit/

          Wouldn’t that conference offer a good opportunity to present to the public a working LENR plant, including a 3rd party report that confirms that it’s real? This is, of course, just wishful thinking, which might make you feel better for a moment, but will eventually been caught up by reality. But in reality, shouldn’t the theory of AGW be a booster for LENR technology? To me, there seems to be a contradiction in supporting LENR on one hand, and persistently denying AGW on the other hand (independently of whether it’s real or not).

          • It remind me a theater play (or a book?) about Jesus coming on earth today…

            It seems that he first have problem with the priest who reject him as heretic, but I don’t remember the end… if someone understand which story I refer too…

    • Fortyniner

      “…the results of at least one year of operation of the 1MW plant in the factory of the Customer and the follow up of our R&D process.”

      So mass production will not begin until they have a at least a year of data from the pilot plant, and then have carried out further R&D to incorporate lessons learned. I can only hope that Rossi is referring only to automated production (perhaps partly in China), and that smaller scale manually-assembled series production will continue openly from the time of disclosure.

      Given the crying urgency of the need, I can see that we are in for an extremely frustrating time, even after a pilot plant becomes available for inspection. The best hope would seem to be that disclosure will push others into openly entering the race, and competition will then force the pace of development. As I’ve previously said though, I believe that this will all take place only within a corporate environment, and CF will be quietly (and apparently, very slowly) introduced with minimal disruption of the energy cartel’s status quo.

      The garage experimenters of the world urgently need to get their act together before the walls begin closing in around this technology.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Hi Fortyniner, I am not exactly certain what you mean by “basic heaters” But I think they are not rushing product into market. As much as the world needs this, we need it to be done right. Surely they are more anxious to market vast quantities of great product than anyone.

        • Fortyniner

          I meant just simple water heaters, as opposed to generator sets or anything else that the tech may be capable of driving. I’m sure you’re right about ‘doing it properly’, in fact I’ve said much the same thing on earlier occasions, but (as I’ve also said) every day that goes by is one more day for others who are not so keen to put rocks on the road – or land mines.

          • Ophelia Rump

            They seem to be the only team with a horse on the track. They seem to have the blessing of extremely influential people. I think they will be OK.

          • Omega Z

            Some days 49’er, you just seem to get into a funk.
            As do many others.
            Patience is considered a virtue for a reason.
            It’s hard.
            I fully understand.

          • Fortyniner

            I have many virtues, and given time I’ll be able to think of at least one of them. Patience definitely isn’t on the list though.

            However, please don’t mistake anxiety for impatience. The fact is that there WILL be opposition by vested interests with no comparable technology, to the free introduction of CF, and it will be very serious opposition, acting directly on the ‘levers of power’ in politics and the mass media.

            The more time that is available for these interests to prepare ways of capturing and controlling the technology, and preventing its general dissemination, the more likely they will be to succeed. IMO, the results of the independent tests and the existence of the pilot plant can’t become public knowledge quickly enough, even if it will then take some time for production to begin in earnest.

          • we have to separate two very different opposition to cold fusion dissemination.

            the one we observe, the groupthink denial, is based on terror by the losers.
            groupthink is not based on interest, on oil of LB conspiracy, it is desperate mental defense by academic who want to hide their pathetic and hopeless failure.
            as Benabou explains, the more they suffer from their decision, the more they enforce it by terrorizing dissenters.

            once LENR will be public and the denialist will have became realist because they could not prevent realist to flee and could not harm them anymore the war will be between vested interest.

            then the oil companies, the big lobbies of ideology and finance will work hard to enjoy economic rent, or keep their old economic or ideology rent…

            the green, the oil companies and countries, the fission industry, the battery industry, the solar industry, the wind industry, the solar roof union, the roof workers union, the utilities workers union, the pylon builder industry, the offshore industry, the retirement fund owners, they will all try to be protected from that revolution, and obtain a monopoly on that technology…

            that will be the crony against real capitalism battle we see always…

            today the crony over-regulated capitalism owns the governments, whose existence is based on distributing rents to those who refuse to pay taxes with the money they take to the masses who accept it.

            I don’t see why things will change except if we move out bottom.

            for now I see that those who are ready to enter the LENR revolution, those who are candidate to fund R&D or who fund NASA or propose LENR-aware patents, are not specialized in energy… they consume energy, and they sell things that will not be sold differently if LENR get mainstream. their market will not be disrupted, just their technology… so no problem.

            Home Depot and Darty will sell E-cat for home, manufactured by Chafoteau&maury.
            Boeing will sell LENR plane.
            Moulinex will sell LENR home cookers.
            Whirlpool will sell LENR washing machines…

            don’t expect GE, Areva, Shell to do the job.
            Nor Greenpeace or WWF to help us save the planet.

            Today the only political party I know which silently plan to support LENR revolution made less than 2% in municipal elections, is pro-business, quite social, quite free-market, very pro-freedom (liberal we say in france, which of course they deny)…

  • Ophelia Rump

    This was not even a confirmation that they have a production line. It sounds like further automation will be based on production demand and that probably makes great sense. Complete automation will cost many millions of dollars. I would like to know what their initial production capacity is projected to be. How many units do they hope to be able to ship the first quarter?

    If they can produce one unit per week the first quarter, they will be extremely profitable.
    If they can produce one unit a day, they can pay cash for an automated line after the first quarter, presuming they can sell that many units, and I cannot imagine that they will be able to keep up with demand.

    • “…the results of at least one year of operation of the 1MW plant in the factory of the Customer and the follow up of our R&D process.”

      So mass production of even basic heater units will not begin until they have at least a year of data from the pilot plant, and then have carried out further R&D to incorporate lessons learned. I can only hope that Rossi is referring specifically to automated production (perhaps partly in China), and that smaller scale manually-assembled series production will continue openly from the time of disclosure.

      Given the crying urgency of the need, I can see that we are in for an extremely frustrating time, even after a pilot plant becomes available for inspection. The best hope would seem to be that disclosure will push others into openly entering the race, and competition will then force the pace of development. As I’ve previously said though, I believe that this will all take place exclusively within a corporate environment, and CF will be quietly (and apparently, very slowly) introduced with minimal disruption of the energy cartel’s status quo.

      The garage experimenters and entrepreneurial ‘start-ups’ of the world urgently need to get their act together, before the walls begin closing in around this technology.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Hi Fortyniner, I am not exactly certain what you mean by “basic heaters” But I think they are not rushing product into market. As much as the world needs this, we need it to be done right. Surely they are more anxious to market vast quantities of great product than anyone.

        • I just meant simple water heaters, as opposed to generator sets or anything else that the tech may be capable of driving. I’m sure you’re right about ‘doing it properly’, in fact I’ve said much the same thing on earlier occasions, but (as I’ve also said) every day that goes by is one more day for others who are less keen to put rocks on the road – or land mines.

          • Ophelia Rump

            They seem to be the only team with a horse on the track. They seem to have the blessing of extremely influential people. I think they will be OK.

          • Omega Z

            Some days 49’er, you just seem to get into a funk.
            As do many others.
            Patience is considered a virtue for a reason.
            It’s hard.
            I fully understand.

          • I have many virtues, and given enough time, I’m sure I’ll be able to think of at least one of them. Patience definitely won’t be on the list though.

            However, please don’t mistake anxiety for impatience. The fact is that there WILL be opposition by vested interests with no comparable technology, to the unrestricted introduction of CF, and it will be very serious opposition, acting directly on the ‘levers of power’ in politics and the mass media.

            The more time that is available for these interests to prepare ways of capturing and controlling the technology, and preventing its general dissemination, the more likely they will be to succeed. IMO, the results of the independent tests and the existence of the pilot plant can’t become public knowledge quickly enough, even if it will then take some time for production to begin in earnest.

          • we have to separate two very different opposition to cold fusion dissemination.

            the one we observe, the groupthink denial, is based on terror by the losers.
            groupthink is not based on interest, on oil of LB conspiracy, it is desperate mental defense by academic who want to hide their pathetic and hopeless failure.
            as Benabou explains, the more they suffer from their decision, the more they enforce it by terrorizing dissenters.

            once LENR will be public and the denialist will have became realist because they could not prevent realist to flee and could not harm them anymore the war will be between vested interest.

            then the oil companies, the big lobbies of ideology and finance will work hard to enjoy economic rent, or keep their old economic or ideology rent…

            the green, the oil companies and countries, the fission industry, the battery industry, the solar industry, the wind industry, the solar roof union, the roof workers union, the utilities workers union, the pylon builder industry, the offshore industry, the retirement fund owners, they will all try to be protected from that revolution, and obtain a monopoly on that technology…

            that will be the crony against real capitalism battle we see always…

            today the crony over-regulated capitalism owns the governments, whose existence is based on distributing rents to those who refuse to pay taxes with the money they take to the masses who accept it.

            I don’t see why things will change except if we move out bottom.

            for now I see that those who are ready to enter the LENR revolution, those who are candidate to fund R&D or who fund NASA or propose LENR-aware patents, are not specialized in energy… they consume energy, and they sell things that will not be sold differently if LENR get mainstream. their market will not be disrupted, just their technology… so no problem.

            Home Depot and Darty will sell E-cat for home, manufactured by Chafoteau&maury.
            Boeing will sell LENR plane.
            Moulinex will sell LENR home cookers.
            Whirlpool will sell LENR washing machines…

            don’t expect GE, Areva, Shell to do the job.
            Nor Greenpeace or WWF to help us save the planet.

            Today the only political party I know which silently plan to support LENR revolution made less than 2% in municipal elections, is pro-business, quite social, quite free-market, very pro-freedom (liberal we say in france, which of course they deny)…

        • Broncobet

          The spirit is willing but the flesh is not.

  • Leena

    First water-based nuclear battery can be used to generate electrical energy.

    From cell phones to cars and flashlights, batteries play an important role in everyday life. Scientists and technology companies constantly are seeking ways to improve battery life and efficiency. Now, for the first time using a water-based solution, researchers at the University of Missouri have created a long-lasting and more efficient nuclear battery that could be used for many applications such as a reliable energy source in automobiles and also in complicated applications such as space flight.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140916132519.htm

  • Omega Z

    I’m not concerned with the manufacturing & such.
    “I” know this will take quite some time to emerge into the market & transition the existing energy structure. I’m quite sure many here are going to be disappointed in the amount of time it takes.

    I’m only concerned about getting a positive 3rd party report & a very positive & convincing report from the 1st customer. Everything else will follow of it’s own accord & time. With these 2 things, everything else becomes inevitable.

  • Omega Z

    I’m not concerned with the manufacturing & such.
    “I” know this will take quite some time to emerge into the market & transition the existing energy structure. I’m quite sure many here are going to be disappointed in the amount of time it takes.

    I’m only concerned about getting a positive 3rd party report & a very positive & convincing report from the 1st customer. Everything else will follow of it’s own accord & time. With these 2 things, everything else becomes inevitable.

  • BroKeeper

    Automated Production will be dictated by market demand. Market demand is dictated by human requirements based on ‘Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs’. This begins in a prioritized pyramid structure with the most basic need at the bottom being Survival, then Security, Social, Status, and finally Self Fulfillment. Of all the spectrum of technologies/resources affecting all levels today is energy.

    Because of past restriction due to scarcity and hazards of most fuel sources this released LENR market pressure will be defined by multiple factors of each of these defined levels. Once the E-Cat is realized after the TIP report and Factory Tour it will be self evident across all manufactures the enormous market potential based on these human needs.

    Acceleration of requirements will be exponentially dictated by public demand. This in turn will further investment of science and innovative engineering that will hasten further realized
    applications to meet the higher level of said needs. Science will awaken its paradigm of theoretical awareness for greater changes; imagination will kick in new futuristic applications.

    This acceleration IMO will develop over the near decade into a dizzying rate. I only hope Cherokee/IH is preparing not only assembly line for the E-Cat but automated factories
    designed to replicate other E-Cat factories to meet the hastening demand for wide
    spectrum of purposeful designs for this anxious world.

    • BroKeeper

      As an addendum here is an interesting article:

      “How our botched understanding of ‘science’ ruins everything”
      Intellectuals of all persuasions love to claim the banner
      of science. A vanishing few do so properly.

      By Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry | September
      19, 2014

      http://theweek.com/article/index/268360/how-our-botched-understanding-of-science-ruins-everything

      • BroKeeper

        This does not necessarily reflect my view – just something that warrants serious consideration.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I’m not talking about belief or evidence, but of behaviour. If you want fossil fuels to be replaced by LENR as quickly as possible, it would be helpful to let AGW theory survive for a while – regardless of its correctness of or what you believe. It’s simply a tactical question.

          • Omega Z

            Prove without a doubt that the CO2 cause of AGW is bogus. AGW wont go away. They will just present Plan B, Then C if necessary.
            Follow the money path leads to redistribution of world resources(Money). From the 1st World to the 3rd World.

            Of all the 3rd world power plants they want to build as many as 25/30 percent could end up being Coal Powered. As to AGW supporters concern about appearances(CO2 & such), the caveat was added that they Corporations involved in building them would be required to install scrubbers.

            .Ultimately, Plan B will be introduced anyway to add urgency to their agenda.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            You are misinterpreting me, Omega Z. I’ve never stated that “the CO2 cause of AGW is bogus.” What I have tried to say is that supporting LENR, and opposing to AGW theory at the same time, seems to be somewhat counterproductive. I did not speak at all about myself.

          • Omega Z

            No, I understood, The Issue of clarity was on my part. Sorry.

            My point was AGW Proponents(Not the general supporters) would not want to join with LENR. It would be very disruptive of their true agenda. Thus their need for alternate plans (B,C,..) should the CO2 argument be quashed. Plan B=Methane. Plan C=aerosols; Steam is classified as an aerosol. LENR will by Their arguments in Plan C be a Greenhouse Gas Emitter. They are ensuring their agenda will continue regardless what anyone does.

            If you wish to obtain support from them or 1 of several other organizations that would appear to be a good fit, You should go to the lowly supporters & bypass their leadership(They don’t want a fix).

            My position on CO2 is from an economic viewpoint. It would become uneconomical to extract enough Fossil fuels long, long before CO2 would become an issue.

            I do believe in pollution, tho much of that we already have the technology to mitigate in an economical way.

            I have no issues with developing CO2 capture technology. If it can be done economically, It would be used/sold as a commodity. It has many uses. People would be shocked at how much CO2 we produce Intentionally every year.

            I believe we need to get away from burning fossil resources. Aside from becoming uneconomically sustainable in the near future, They have many feed stock uses we will sorely miss when their gone. Burning them having been a necessity, is such a useless waste of a valuable resource.

            Some friendly advice Andreas, Should you stumble upon a cheap, economical means to capture & sequester CO2 in a solid form, Just build it & spread it as fast as possible. DO NOT take it before the AGW Committee. I suspect that You & Your Device would become permanently Sequestered & Never, Ever, be heard from again.
            Your presence here at ECW would be sorely missed.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I any case, it will be very interesting to observe how different interest groups react when the LENR news come through. The first, spontaneous reactions will be the most telling, I suppose.

          • C. Kirk

            Perhaps a hint by Rossi of the expected COP (x 10) when he answered a question of Alutam…..
            Andrea Rossi

            September 25th, 2014 at 2:32 PM

            Alutam:

            I don’t have problems, I have opportunities ( x 10)

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

          • bachcole

            Hey, James Tiberius Kirk, I am certain that he is NOT referring to a COP of 10. He is talking about having a huge number of opportunities, which he does.

          • Omega Z

            I do not have a problem. Just an opportunity.
            Rossi
            I do not have “X” problems. I have “X” opportunities.
            So he has many small problems to resolve…

  • Brokeeper

    From my limited perspective, Automated Production will be dictated by market demand. Market demand is dictated by human requirements based on ‘Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs’. This begins in a prioritized pyramid structure with the most basic need at the bottom being Survival, then Security, Social, Status, and finally Self Fulfillment. Of all the spectrum of technologies/resources affecting all levels today, it is energy.

    Because of past restriction due to scarcity, cost and hazards of most fuel sources this released LENR market pressure will be defined by multiplication of each of these defined level factors. Once the E-Cat is realized after the TIP report and Factory Tour it will become self evident across all manufacturers the enormous market potential based on these human needs.

    Acceleration of requirements will be exponentially dictated by public demand. This in turn will further investment of science and innovative engineering that will hasten further realize
    its relevancy to meet the higher level of said needs. Science will awaken its paradigm of theoretical awareness for greater changes and imagination will kick in new futuristic applications.

    This acceleration IMO will develop over the near decade into a dizzying rate. I only hope Cherokee/IH is preparing not only an assembly line for the E-Cat but automated factories
    designed to replicate other E-Cat factories to meet the hastening demand for wide
    spectrum of purposeful designs for this anxious world.

    • Brokeeper

      Here is interesting article on the definition of science:

      “How our botched understanding of ‘science’ ruins everything”
      Intellectuals of all persuasions love to claim the banner of science. A vanishing few do so properly.

      “… people don’t understand that science is built on experimentation,…”

      By Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry | September 19, 2014

      http://theweek.com/article/index/268360/how-our-botched-understanding-of-science-ruins-everything

      • Brokeeper

        (This article does not necessarily reflect my view – just something that warrants serious consideration.)

  • clovis ray

    Hi, guys, so how long has the Ecat, been working for the customer. does this mean we wait another year.;(

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Right now we are waiting for report. If you are waiting for a home ecat that time is more likely measured in decades, as its firts incarnations are said to be industrial use. If it can create power then power companies will adapt to grid before home units will start to be seen.

      • clovis ray

        Hi, FP
        I know all about the home cat, it’s not myself I am worried about in the very least.
        It’s so many other things that are so important to this world and if you are not worried, well…. you should be.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Rossi announced the delivery last week, so it is probably not completely installed yet.
      Yes, depending on what you are waiting for.

      • clovis ray

        Hi,miss, O
        thanks for responding, maybe I made myself a bit more clear, above I hope. -smile

  • Jouni Tuomela

    I have no idea how to ramp up production of a gadget utilizing something amazing, and unbelievable to most of us. That must be hard, as new findings can change the design altogether in days?

    But basically the design of today consists of tubular modules, which are of convenient size, as seen in the pictures. That could be the stable basis of the design for now. The control-electronics consisting of the control of either electrical resistors or gas-flames together with some RF (at least some “catalyzing” or triggering from some harmonic frequencies is required for the reactions.) and then the heat exchanger- part.

    So now they can build the heat exchanger, and the control electronics.
    To get an update for the plant you change the insides of reactor-tubes and the software of the control-units.

    • clovis ray

      hi Jouni
      This is true as I see it, the only thing that needs improving is the core reactor, the rest is trivial, so how hard would it be to study the device and give a report, hell most of the work has already been done for them years ago, come on give us a break, it’s only well known science that’s is being reported on here, nothing new in physics, I am told, so what gives.

  • Daniel Maris

    The context of this Q and A is automated production. I think that is important to note.

    What exactly are you “waiting” for?

    If confirmation by a reputable team of scientists, that should be within a few weeks.

    If you mean confirmation that the E Cat is working in an operational setting – well I would hope in a few months. There doesn’t seem to be any particular reason to keep a pilot installation secret – quite the reverse in fact. So if the pilot operation is kept secret that will raise serious doubts.

    But, looking optimistically at this, I would hope that following release of positive test results, we get a good flow of info on the pilot scheme in an operational setting.

  • jousterusa

    Rossi was not dissembling here. He is preparing mentally and physically for the challenge of mass production. But what we have heard so far suggests he will not be ready for the demand, and the high cost of production could well bankrupt him. Success is the toughest challenge any operation faces, because all kinds of costs – labor, machinery, programming, parts – all go up. This is also a tough time to get a loan, and he well may need one to keep IH afloat. The one good thing in this vision is that some costs are lower in China, and the financial controls executable by the government may temper some of the labor and other costs. But the early reports we’ve heard of high COPs may spark a stratospheric demand that no one can be ready for!

    • Fortyniner

      Remember that Rossi is now, on paper at least, simply an employee of IH, and as such doesn’t face further personal financial risk. IH is an investment consortium, seemingly with a number of backers, and is unlikely to need to approach banks for its funds. From their painfully slow cautious approach so far, I would guess that their business model will be one of continual growth, but beginning with limited semi-manual series production.

      As you say, demand is likely to make this a comparatively rapid process, following their ‘launch’.

      • jousterusa

        It’s hard to imagine Rossi as “simply an employee,” and yet I suspect he is also an investor in IH as well – perhaps his equity reflects the relatively small investment ($11 million) the company has made in light of the equity given to him. Nonetheless, you are correct that beyond any equity – or bonus amounts – I intended to identify him only in the context of the company he works for, sort of like saying “Bill Gates” instead of “Microsoft.” I apologize for the lack of clarity. BTW, I would note that under “What’s New,” Blacklight Power has also reported two successful fund-raining ventures, one of them over-subscribed.

  • jousterusa

    Rossi was not dissembling here. He is preparing mentally and physically for the challenge of mass production. But what we have heard so far suggests he will not be ready for the demand, and the high cost of production could well bankrupt him. Success is the toughest challenge any operation faces, because all kinds of costs – labor, machinery, programming, parts – all go up. This is also a tough time to get a loan, and he well may need one to keep IH afloat. The one good thing in this vision is that some costs are lower in China, and the financial controls executable by the government may temper some of the labor and other costs. But the early reports we’ve heard of high COPs may spark a stratospheric demand that no one can be ready for!

    • Remember that Rossi is now, on paper at least, simply an employee of IH, and as such doesn’t face further personal financial risk. IH is an investment consortium, seemingly with a number of backers, and is unlikely to need to approach banks for its funds. From their painfully slow cautious approach so far, I would guess that their business model will be one of continual growth, but beginning with limited semi-manual series production.

      As you say, demand is likely to make this a comparatively rapid process, following their ‘launch’.

      • jousterusa

        It’s hard to imagine Rossi as “simply an employee,” and yet I suspect he is also an investor in IH as well – perhaps his equity reflects the relatively small investment ($11 million) the company has made in light of the equity given to him. Nonetheless, you are correct that beyond any equity – or bonus amounts – I intended to identify him only in the context of the company he works for, sort of like saying “Bill Gates” instead of “Microsoft.” I apologize for the lack of clarity. BTW, I would note that under “What’s New,” Blacklight Power has also reported two successful fund-raising ventures, one of them over-subscribed.

    • bachcole

      You almost certain know more about this sort of thing than I do, but I remind you that Rossi is not alone, and I suspect that if he were, he would crash upon the rocks that you allude to.

  • clovis ray

    Hi Everyone, it would seem I did not make my self clear, about waiting a full year, for production of this god sent, I apologize, I to get impatient at times, I appreciate the importance of the report, it will be huge, but what frustrates me is, all the delays, this is so important, for the health and prosperity of the world, were I in Dr. Rossi place I would already have been dead, from over work. give me the secret, and I will build a shop, hire workers, and build an 1 mw plant, by first of the year, and by letting the market set the pace, so I would up the production, the main thing to me is product out the door to costumers. we don’t need the dam Chinese to do anything, except buy our product.
    you have heard Dr. rossi say that he could build them cheaper and faster than the Orientals, this is true, all they have to do is buy the produce and obey international laws, and the tptb enforce them. IH, has not engaged themselves in any way with
    (us) or anyone else, because it is not in their interest to do so, becoming popular is not in their best interest, they only need to sale to large co., and gradually increase, there business as the fossil fuels decline, in order to decrease disruption, and panic. so I hope that I’m a little clearer than mud, this time –smile.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Today, UN Climate Summit will commence in New York:

    http://www.un.org/climatechange/summit/

    Wouldn’t that conference offer a good opportunity to present to the public a working LENR plant, including a 3rd party report that confirms that it’s real? This is, of course, just wishful thinking, which might make you feel better for a moment, but will eventually been caught up by reality. But in reality, shouldn’t the theory of AGW be a booster for LENR technology? To me, there seems to be a contradiction in supporting LENR on one hand, and persistently denying AGW on the other hand (independently of whether it’s real or not).

    • It remind me a theater play (or a book?) about Jesus coming on earth today…

      It seems that he first have problem with the priest who reject him as heretic, but I don’t remember the end… if someone understand which story I refer too…

    • bachcole

      I am not motivated to disbelieve in AGW for ANY reason other than the evidence. I am not motivated to believe in LENR for ANY reason other than the evidence. (:->)

      I suppose the case could be made that both positions are unpopular, and so this why I believe in both positions. But, I don’t believe in UFOs or contrails being part of a conspiracy to kill everyone, and they are unpopular beliefs. And I believe in God, and that is a very popular belief that I share with at least 2 or 3 billion people.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I’m not talking about belief or evidence, but of behaviour. If you want fossil fuels to be replaced by LENR as quickly as possible, it would be helpful to let AGW theory survive for a while – regardless of its correctness of or what you believe. It’s simply a tactical question.

        • Omega Z

          Prove without a doubt that the CO2 cause of AGW is bogus. AGW wont go away. They will just present Plan B, Then C if necessary.
          Follow the money path leads to redistribution of world resources(Money). From the 1st World to the 3rd World.

          Of all the 3rd world power plants they want to build as many as 25/30 percent could end up being Coal Powered. As to AGW supporters concern about appearances(CO2 & such), the caveat was added that they Corporations involved in building them would be required to install scrubbers.

          .Ultimately, Plan B will be introduced anyway to add urgency to their agenda.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            You are misinterpreting me, Omega Z. I’ve never stated that “the CO2 cause of AGW is bogus.” What I have tried to say is that supporting LENR, and opposing to AGW theory at the same time, seems to be somewhat counterproductive. I did not speak at all about myself.

          • Omega Z

            No, I understood, The Issue of clarity was on my part. Sorry.

            My point was AGW Proponents(Not the general supporters) would not want to join with LENR. It would be very disruptive of their true agenda. Thus their need for alternate plans (B,C,..) should the CO2 argument be quashed. Plan B=Methane. Plan C=aerosols; Steam is classified as an aerosol. LENR will by Their arguments in Plan C be a Greenhouse Gas Emitter. They are ensuring their agenda will continue regardless what anyone does.

            If you wish to obtain support from them or 1 of several other organizations that would appear to be a good fit, You should go to the lowly supporters & bypass their leadership(They don’t want a fix).

            My position on CO2 is from an economic viewpoint. It would become uneconomical to extract enough Fossil fuels long, long before CO2 would become an issue.

            I do believe in pollution, tho much of that we already have the technology to mitigate in an economical way.

            I have no issues with developing CO2 capture technology. If it can be done economically, It would be used/sold as a commodity. It has many uses. People would be shocked at how much CO2 we produce Intentionally every year.

            I believe we need to get away from burning fossil resources. Aside from becoming uneconomically sustainable in the near future, They have many feed stock uses we will sorely miss when their gone. Burning them having been a necessity, is such a useless waste of a valuable resource.

            Some friendly advice Andreas, Should you stumble upon a cheap, economical means to capture & sequester CO2 in a solid form, Just build it & spread it as fast as possible. DO NOT take it before the AGW Committee. I suspect that You & Your Device would become permanently Sequestered & Never, Ever, be heard from again.
            Your presence here at ECW would be sorely missed.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I any case, it will be very interesting to observe how different interest groups react when the LENR news come through. The first, spontaneous reactions will be the most telling, I suppose.

        • bachcole

          That is the same strategy that pro-AGW people make so that they can promote a cleaner environment (or cash in thanks to carbon credits.). The ends do not justify the means. That is a central premise of the moral life.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I agree, but not for all possible cases. If you had specific information and you knew that providing this information to the public would cause a disaster, shouldn’t you better withhold it? I admit that this stance implies problems. Especially, as soon as responsible persons or institutions have the ability to hold information back, there is always a chance that they will abuse it. In reality, this happens all the time – no doubt that it is morally reprehensible. But withholding information might be acceptable, and even advisable, if it prevents serious damage from the persons who would otherwise receive it.

          • bachcole

            But, both AGW being mainstream and LENR being taboo provide object lessons for the masses to rethink their worship of “mainstream”. I think that it is more important that people learn to think for themselves than we concern ourselves with any possible but unlikely affect that AGW adherence would have on LENR acceptance. Even I can appreciate the value and beauty of LENR and I don’t believe in AGW.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    I agree, but not for all possible cases. If you had specific information and you knew that providing this information to the public would cause a disaster, shouldn’t you better withhold it? I admit that this stance implies problems. Especially, as soon as responsible persons or institutions have the ability to hold information back, there is always a chance that they will abuse it. In reality, this happens all the time – no doubt that it is morally reprehensible. But withholding information might be acceptable, and even advisable, if it prevents serious damage from the persons who would otherwise receive it.

  • Frank: Can you ask Rossi if the Problems are minor or major problems?
    Maybe they only have to adjust a few values to fit the customers demands.

    Thank you!

  • Frank: Can you ask Rossi if the Problems are minor or major problems?
    Maybe they only have to adjust a few values to fit the customers demands.

    Thank you!

    Edit: I tried it myself. I hope he responds 😉

  • Jimr

    If it takes a year to fully resolve I assume it is not a minor problem. I don’t beleive that the Ecat is as far advanced as many of us would like to think. It is very possible that Brillion (as the SRI prof. said) is further advanced than Rossi, also the Chinese and others may be further advanced.

  • Jimr

    If it takes a year to fully resolve I assume it is not a minor problem. I don’t beleive that the Ecat is as far advanced as many of us would like to think. It is very possible that Brillion (as the SRI prof. said) is further advanced than Rossi, also the Chinese and others may be further advanced.

  • expendableawayteammember

    Sensor readings indicate Imperfections in the dilithium crystals, no doubt introduced by the Romulan ambassador.

  • expendableawayteammember

    Sensor readings indicate Imperfections in the dilithium crystals, no doubt introduced by the Romulan ambassador.

  • Sanjeev

    This seems to be a major setback. If it can take one year to solve problems, it means that the plant is not really working….

    Since the regular Ecat is now a 4 year old tech, one would expect it to work flawlessly, even if at a low efficiency. Its all in dark, too much secrecy an sometimes conflicting claims are all very frustrating.

    I hope the hot-cat has no such problems and a working prototype will be ready this year.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Perhaps more likely, he meant that it would take about one year until every potential problem is known and under control. Regarding the momentary situation, he has already given an answer to barty, which sounds less dramatic. I suppose, Frank will provide an update shortly.

      • bob-v

        Sad situation.

        “This seems to be a major setback.” YES IT IS!
        So the masterpiece is probably back in IH’s factory of magnificence.
        Cool Cat for another year?
        Is there any successfully operating 1 MW plant on this planet? About the first “secret military plant”, A.R. reported 7000 operating hours for the first year and after this there was/is silence only.
        What about the blue container heating the IH factory, afaik no no comment from IH or A.R.

        • Omega Z

          The 1st was a military customer of which was likely analysis of the technology. Possibly this was NRL.
          In which case, you will hear about it in about 20 or 30 year. If Ever.
          This sort of thing takes place all the time & we never hear about it.

    • John Littlemist

      I suspect that the prototype plant producess a lot of excess heat, but not so regularly as required. I think there might be some difficult stability issues with the plant.

    • deleo77

      I don’t really understand. Why spend a year perfecting this specific plant to this customer’s needs? LENR is a general technology. It produces heat. If it doesn’t work for this specific customer then go to one where it does. One year? Sorry but this just doesn’t sound good at all.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        But maybe that other customer dislikes publicity. To make the sought-after public impact there are four requirements: (1) LENR has worked (2) for one year (3) in customer’s premises (4) who allows publicity. One surely cannot make public impact without publicity, and on the other hand if they would do it in their own premises instead of a customer’s, credibility would be lost.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      After taking into account also AR’s most recent comments, I understand it so that they completed and started to run the plant some months ago, but problems emerged which they are now debugging. And they have a requirement of running the plant for 1 year before calling it success. Since the plant is currently offline and undergoing modifications, even in the best case it takes at least 1 year from now to fulfil the requirement.

    • Heath

      He seems to be speaking more about tying it into the customer’s infrastructure as an alternate source of power. If you think about it I bet there are all sort of gotchas with each unique situation but nothing insurmountable.

  • Sanjeev

    This seems to be a major setback. If it can take one year to solve problems, it means that the plant is not really working….

    Since the regular Ecat is now a 4 year old tech, one would expect it to work flawlessly, even if at a low efficiency. Its all in dark, too much secrecy an sometimes conflicting claims are all very frustrating.

    I hope the hot-cat has no such problems and a working prototype will be ready this year.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Perhaps more likely, he meant that it would take about one year until every potential problem is known and under control. Regarding the momentary situation, he has already given an answer to barty, which sounds less dramatic. I suppose, Frank will provide an update shortly.

      • bob-v

        Sad situation.

        “This seems to be a major setback.” YES IT IS!
        So the masterpiece is probably back in IH’s factory of magnificence.
        Cool Cat for another year?
        Is there any successfully operating 1 MW plant on this planet? About the first “secret military plant”, A.R. reported 7000 operating hours for the first year and after this there was/is silence only.
        What about the blue container heating the IH factory, afaik no no comment from IH or A.R.

        • Omega Z

          The 1st was a military customer of which was likely analysis of the technology. Possibly this was NRL.
          In which case, you will hear about it in about 20 or 30 year. If Ever.
          This sort of thing takes place all the time & we never hear about it.

    • John Littlemist

      I suspect that the prototype plant producess a lot of excess heat, but not so regularly as required. I think there might be some difficult stability issues with the plant.

    • deleo77

      I don’t really understand. Why spend a year perfecting this specific plant to this customer’s needs? LENR is a general technology. It produces heat. If it doesn’t work for this specific customer then go to one where it does. One year? Sorry but this just doesn’t sound good at all.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        But maybe that other customer dislikes publicity. To make the sought-after public impact there are four requirements: (1) LENR has worked (2) for one year (3) in customer’s premises (4) who allows publicity. One surely cannot make public impact without publicity, and on the other hand if they would do it in their own premises instead of a customer’s, credibility would be lost.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      After taking into account also AR’s most recent comments, I understand it so that they completed and started to run the plant some months ago, but problems emerged which they are now debugging. And they have a requirement of running the plant for 1 year before calling it success. Since the plant is currently offline and undergoing modifications, even in the best case it takes at least 1 year from now to fulfil the requirement.

    • Heath

      He seems to be speaking more about tying it into the customer’s infrastructure as an alternate source of power. If you think about it I bet there are all sort of gotchas with each unique situation but nothing insurmountable.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      I much agree – this is the first real news of major problems.

      Stating that 1 full year is required to vet out issues is
      not particularly good news. For sure one can (and should) expect teething issues
      – that not news at all – that is expected. However, the suggested time of 1 year is VERY troubling. So some issue – for sure! But one year = bad news!

      This suggests that AR is basically admitting that any public
      viewing or tours can only occur in about 1 year time from delivery. That now
      means December 2015 and not December 2014. I really don’t see any other way to interpret this statement unless such a statement is the result of language translation (I
      don’t this it is).

      This is unfortunate news, since this suggests we have
      another year to wait for any kind of “customer” verification of a commercial plant
      by the public. It is HIGHLY unlikely that any public viewing or even viewing by
      IH “brass” or company officials would and can occur until such time that “teething” issuers are resolved.

      Darn, it looks to be another LONG cold winter before the
      public can finally hear the following famous words we ALL desire to hear in the
      field of LENR – and is a phrase from the original version of the movie Total
      Recall that ALSO meant freedom for people:

      Start the reactor!

      • GreenWin

        Gee Al, why’ve you got to be so negative? 🙂

  • GreenWin

    “I found the control of the front rudder quite difficult on account of
    its being balanced too near the center and thus had a tendency to turn
    itself when started so that the rudder was turned too far on one side
    and then too far on the other. As a result the machine would rise
    suddenly to about 10 ft. and then as suddenly, on turning the rudder,
    dart for the ground. A sudden dart when out about 100 feet from the end
    of the tracks ended the flight. Time about 12 seconds (not known exactly
    as watch was not promptly stopped).
    The lever for throwing off the engine was broken, and the skid under the
    rudder cracked. After repairs, at 20 min. after 11 o’clock Will made
    the second trial.”

    December 17,1903, Orville Wright’s diary

    • Bernie777

      Great post, makes you realize we are witnessing history, being able to react to Rossie’s/Orvile’s diary entries as they are made.

  • GreenWin

    “I found the control of the front rudder quite difficult on account of
    its being balanced too near the center and thus had a tendency to turn
    itself when started so that the rudder was turned too far on one side
    and then too far on the other. As a result the machine would rise
    suddenly to about 10 ft. and then as suddenly, on turning the rudder,
    dart for the ground. A sudden dart when out about 100 feet from the end
    of the tracks ended the flight. Time about 12 seconds (not known exactly
    as watch was not promptly stopped).
    The lever for throwing off the engine was broken, and the skid under the
    rudder cracked. After repairs, at 20 min. after 11 o’clock Will made
    the second trial.”

    December 17,1903, Orville Wright’s diary

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Great post, makes you realize we are witnessing history, being able to react to Rossie’s/Orvile’s diary entries as they are made.

  • Rossi responded to my question where I asked whether the problems are major or minor:

    Barty:

    We have a lot of minor problems; obviously I cannot give the
    particulars; also, we have to adjust the plant to the particular needs
    of the Customer, as you correctly said, therefore, as usually, from
    problems are born more problems. Lot of work to do.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • EEStorFanFibb

      Well that is far less ominous sounding! Thanks

  • Rossi responded to my question where I asked whether the problems are major or minor:

    Barty:

    We have a lot of minor problems; obviously I cannot give the
    particulars; also, we have to adjust the plant to the particular needs
    of the Customer, as you correctly said, therefore, as usually, from
    problems are born more problems. Lot of work to do.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • Alain Samoun

    Manhatan project took close to 4 years with the best minds of the time working on it, and they knew the basic theory.

    • clovis ray

      what a sad day in human history, when that mess was discovered.

      • Alain Samoun

        Clovis, it was just an example that a new energy application takes time.
        Of course, I will agree that it was a sad day to use it as it was used for.

      • BroKeeper

        1/26 years = just 3.8% more patience

        • clovis ray

          Hi, Bro k.
          i’m glad , you are here, buddy, and if your father fought, for freedom and , thanks goes to him, but we must also consider the innocent people that was wiped off the face of the earth, when their government was to blame, not the people,

          • BroKeeper

            Yes, the world has created a dizzying display of contradictions. I still believe all male leaders should wear only loin cloths.

          • it seems that classic bombing have killed more japanese than the 2 bombs and was not convincing enough to convince the emperor.
            even Hiroshima let him discuss about his own deity status. A painful replication of the third party test seems to have convinced the emperor that he have lost.

            More TNT falled on Dresden than the 2 nuke bomb…

            the good things with A bomb, is that your are not ready to play with that risk.

            note that the plan to defend Japan islands in a way of the tiny island in the pacific, even worst than stalingrad, was estimated to 3 million japanese losses (or was it the Us loses, with 10x more Japanese… don’t remember).

  • Alain Samoun

    Manhatan project took close to 4 years with the best minds of the time working on it, and they knew the basic theory.

    • clovis ray

      what a sad day in human history, when that mess was discovered.

      • Alain Samoun

        Clovis, it was just an example that a new energy application takes time.
        Of course, I will agree that it was a sad day to use it as it was used for.

      • bachcole

        The total body count and the percentage body count from war dropped dramatically starting on August 10th, 1945. The atomic and hydrogen bombs made total war impractical. I guess that makes the discovery of the atomic bomb a glorious day in human history.

        • clovis ray

          i don’t believe that at all, heck we have been in a perpetual war ever since that terrible day, this earth will be better off with all that crap is band from the face of the earth, then we might rest easy knowing the unseen death wont get us while we sleep, i live with in a 50 mile area of one of these dangerous (old) power plants, and (old) missile sites, and you can bet your butt, that there is one near you just check.

          • bachcole

            Other than the run-on sentences (:->), I agree with you, for the most part. But I don’t see a perpetual war; I see reporting and minor skirmishing. I also see the militaries of Western countries bending over backwards to avoid collateral damage, although I also see the militias of Muslim terrorist groups targeting innocent people.

      • Brokeeper

        It probably saved my father’s life in the Pacific and allow this comment.

        • clovis ray

          Hi, Bro k.
          i’m glad , you are here, buddy, and if your father fought, for freedom and , thanks goes to him, but we must also consider the innocent people that was wiped off the face of the earth, when their government was to blame, not the people,

          • Brokeeper

            Yes, the world has created a dizzying display of contradictions. I still believe all male leaders should wear only loin cloths.

          • it seems that classic bombing have killed more japanese than the 2 bombs and was not convincing enough to convince the emperor.
            even Hiroshima let him discuss about his own deity status. A painful replication of the third party test seems to have convinced the emperor that he have lost.

            More TNT falled on Dresden than the 2 nuke bomb…

            the good things with A bomb, is that your are not ready to play with that risk.

            note that the plan to defend Japan islands in a way of the tiny island in the pacific, even worst than stalingrad, was estimated to 3 million japanese losses (or was it the Us loses, with 10x more Japanese… don’t remember).

          • bachcole

            Total deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were probably in the 500,000 range. We did not fully understand or appreciate the part that radioactivity would have played, so that is not part of the culpability set. And total projected deaths in an invasion is really a matter of opinion, but NO ONE estimates anything less than 7,000,000, on both sides, and for me, both sides is what counts. Some estimates go above 10,000,000. We currently have the benefit of hindsight, and I as a student of WW II would estimate that more than 15,000,000 would have died. This would include a high percentage of women, the elderly, and older children, who were armed to the teeth. In the whole history of the Japanese nation, nothing like this had ever happened, so they were ready to die to the last man, woman, and child. For me, if I looked back and saw that they did NOT use the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, I would have been shocked and dismayed and indignant. And probably all liberal bleeding hearts would have felt the same.

          • bachcole

            Most of them did not know that they have been hit. The rest that knew that they had been hit did not know what hit them, and they suffered tremendously. But to say that they were all innocent is foolish. They ALL supported their militaristic government and cheered whenever they heard about a victory.

      • bachcole

        The worldwide absolute numbers and the percentage per population of deaths from war dropped like an iridium arrow in air after August 10th 1945. The atomic bomb development made total war inconceivable.

    • Timar

      Let us hope that there will never, ever be a Manhattan Project based on LENR.

    • LENR4you

      from wikipedia: The Manhattan Project began modestly in 1939, but grew to employ more than 130,000 people and cost nearly US$2 billion (about $26 billion in 2014[1] dollars).

  • Guru

    Dire Straits situation: By Third Party Report a fame will for Rossi, although first on mass market will Steorn HephaHeat (in reality mass manufacturers with Steorn Technology). Sometime between now and November 15 – December 1, 2014
    HephaHeat is: far cheaper, faster to start, other performace parameters similar as Hot-Cat

    • Ophelia Rump

      Get real.

      • bachcole

        Do you mean: Get real and write understandable sentences. Or do you mean: I don’t agree with what you said. Or both?

        • Ophelia Rump

          It is an allusion to disillusion delusion.

      • Curbina

        Get Orbo?

        • hempenearth

          Its the wheal thing!

    • hempenearth

      What is the source of that information Guru?

    • ronzonni

      @Guru

      Has anybody other than Steorn seen and tested Hepaheat?

      • Guru

        Sure, dozen of technicians of “one of the three biggest European manufacturer of electric water heaters”
        Few days back Bosch buy share in electric home appliances from Siemens, maybe some hint

        • Again – ‘Hephaheat’ is just a type of process heater utilising a thermal store which is heated by induction. As it is a heat store, cheaper ‘off peak’ electricity can be used to get the metal core up to temperature, and it is on this that that the cheaper running cost claims depend (vs. ‘on demand’ electrical resistance heating).

          Steorn do not claim overunity, that is purely Hank Mills’ interpretation. Sean McCarthy has had a bit of fun in some videos, but this is NOT any kind of O/U technology, just a mundane industrial product.

  • hornster

    Another year with one customer? Seems it would be more efficient and make more money sooner to parallel effort with what must be demand. Hire some engineers and service reps for more customers… If the problems are minor as he said, and tech is solid, to marry the ecat to customers should be more management/ engineering logistics than foreverland.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Get real.

    • Curbina

      Get Orbo?

      • hempenearth

        Its the wheal thing!

  • hempenearth

    What is the source of that information Guru?

  • ronzonni

    Admin said “first installation”. But surely, this is not the first installation. Rossi said he sold 12 megawatt plants to the military more than two years ago. Surely, at least some of those have been installed and tested by now, have they not? Rossi also said that delivery time for megawatt plants is four months.

    Do you mean first plant from Industrial Heat? Do we know where and by whom the current delivery was made? Why would Rossi not benefit from his experience with the twelve or more plants already sold to perfect the plant he sold recently?

    • GreenWin

      Why is there air, ronzonni?

  • Gerard McEk

    What I read between the lines is that ‘adapting the 1 MW plant to the customers needs’ may well have to do with the controllability of the plant (more-less energy to the customers process). I think the Ecat cannot be controlled very well (in energy output) controlling more than 100 may be extremely difficult. No doubt it will take time do deal with it but that’s life of an engineer.

  • Gerard McEk

    What I read between the lines is that ‘adapting the 1 MW plant to the customers needs’ may well have to do with the controllability of the plant (more-less energy to the customers process). I think the Ecat cannot be controlled very well (in energy output) controlling more than 100 may be extremely difficult. No doubt it will take time do deal with it but that’s life of an engineer.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    One should not make mountains out of molehills. Rossi is a perfectionist. When a perfectionist says that there are problems, people with less sense for accuracy and quality will think that there is a disaster. But the result might already be better than they could imagine. Besides, one year is a very short period for coming from a prototype to a product which is ready for mass fabrication. I guess any engineer with experience in the development of complex devices would confirm that.

    • BroKeeper

      1/26 years = just 3.8% more patience.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        For me (observing since March 2011): 1/3.5 y = 28.6 % more patience. So what?

    • C. Kirk

      Exactly! Mountains out of molehills………… Rossi’s latest post

      Andrea Rossi

      September 25th, 2014 at 12:39 PM

      Eernie1:

      Yes, exactly; anyway, in my life I have designed and installed hundreds
      of industrial plants, never had the luck to see one pass through the
      first period of several months without troubles. This is NOT an
      exception.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    One should not make mountains out of molehills. Rossi is a perfectionist. When a perfectionist says that there are problems, people with less sense for accuracy and quality will think that there is a disaster. But the result might already be better than they could imagine. Besides, one year is a very short period for coming from a prototype to a product which is ready for mass fabrication. I guess any engineer with experience in the development of complex devices would confirm that.

    • Brokeeper

      1/26 years = just 3.8% more patience.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        For me (observing since March 2011): 1/3.5 y = 28.6 % more patience. So what?

    • Albert D. Kallal

      I don’t think this is a major setback. I think it just means
      that AR is being honest and “managing” public anticipation of this
      plant being a successful delivery. If AR says about another year is required,
      then that really just means that more time is required and MORE important is AR
      simply ensuring that public opinion of those following this issue are not surprised.
      In other words he is kindly admitting that more time is required, and thus reducing
      (managing) public expectations.

      With this statement, AR has effectively removed pressure
      of some “December” delivery or date of an operational plant. At this
      point, then NO ONE can say that AR has mislead the public since he now gone on
      record that another year is likely required.
      If we all are to trust AR claims, then we have to trust AR that another year of work is required here. This is not some 3rd party or someone else talking about more time required, but right from the horse’s mouth – a rather honest admission on AR’s part. It is unfortunate, since clearly some of AR’s recent comments gave the impression that things are progressing along very well indeed. This recent statement by AR certainly in public “retracts” AR’s claim of “soon”. In effect it is a veiled public apology by AR since he did jump the gun in recent months with positive news. This is simply a public retraction of that good public news.

      Given that the plant is supposedly on site then clearly some issue that going to take SIGNIFICANT time to resolve has occurred. As I say, expectations were rising high for some announcement in December for a working plant with a happy customer. It looks like we have to wait another year or so.

      I was hoping for some kind of Christmas present and that
      day in which a press announcement occurs that stuns the world:

      First commercial cold fusion plant delivered to happy
      customer. (and yes, I WANT + LIKE the term cold fusion). The general public has
      no clue what LENR is, but the press and public does have lingering memories of
      cold fusion announcement that occurred 25 years ago.

    • C. Kirk

      Exactly! Mountains out of molehills………… Rossi’s latest post

      Andrea Rossi

      September 25th, 2014 at 12:39 PM

      Eernie1:

      Yes, exactly; anyway, in my life I have designed and installed hundreds
      of industrial plants, never had the luck to see one pass through the
      first period of several months without troubles. This is NOT an
      exception.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Major setback. ITER is about to take the lead.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Major setback. ITER is about to take the lead.

    • bachcole

      I presume that this is some kind of sick joke.

  • Ophelia Rump

    The commentary is becoming manic depressive, grand highs and crashing lows.
    What a freaking roller-coaster, just let out a good scream and a few laughs and try to hang on.

    • BroKeeper

      LOL

    • Fortyniner

      Unfortunately, these days I seem to be suppressing mostly screams of frustration. I must try really, really hard to pretend that I’m a grown up…

      • Ophelia Rump

        Wherein they learn that the customers needs were not necessarily within their programs current operating parameters. This sounds more like a market issue than a science issue to me.
        Opportunities not foreseen. New parameters, broader markets, win win relationship.

        • Fortyniner

          Again – ‘Hephaheat’ is just a type of process heater utilising a thermal store heated by induction on cheaper ‘off peak’ electricity. It is NOT any kind of o/u technology, just a mundane industrial product.

      • timycelyn

        We seem to be so caught up in the switchback of joy and disillusion regarding the 1Mw plant at the Customer and the upcoming 2IP report, that I thought it was time to stand back a little.

        Lest we forget, here are some reminders….

        A) There is a real, anomalous heat generating effect that cannot be accounted for by application of current regular understanding of chemistry and physics.
        * Multiple validations and studies by a wide slew of researchers. Different techniques, different materials, but probably all enocmpassed in the same territory of unexplored and unrecognised phyisics or chemistry – right on the borderline between the two disciplines.
        * Rossi’s technique and equipment produces large amounts of heat. The first Independent test was actaully conclusive, and the criticisms of it were, IMHO academic/theoretical; anyone who actually and seriously proposes that these tests were fake needs help with their obviously tenuous understanding of reality.

        B) Everyone who gets close to Rossi’s technology is convinced of its total reality.
        * IH will have performed extensive due diligence. Subsequent to acquisition, they obviously are in a very hands – on mode, their people are making the kit. They have had plenty of time to go ‘Oh no, it’s a scam/it never works etc’ and cut their losses. Instead, they are investing and have the confidence to take a customer order and deliver. (OK, no doubt under special agreement relating to the fact it is the first and may need support and work on site..).
        * All those who have got close to the technology for a period of time (not the sometimes brief demos with Rossis’ paranoia in evidence, like with that Rivet idiot) seem to be convinced of the reality of his technology and the large amounts of heat produced. Where are the dissenters saying “Was with him for x months. Used to believe in it but I never saw it work, I became disillusioned, then I realised I was being scammed and left…. ” Not one. Nada. Zilch. Quite the opposite, even those who for commercial reasons (like the pre-IH distributors) he had to part company with.

        So, lets take a big breath, count to ten, and keep a sense of reality here. Sure, the new plant is having teething troubles, and I agree with 49’er that this has probably reset some 12 month uninterrupted running thing with the customer, hence Rossi’s (typically ambiguous) comment.

        We are way past ‘Is this real or is it smoke and mirrors?’ It’s totally real. The very very worst thing that I can imagine happening now would be for Rossi to be unable to master control and deliver a smooth, reliable output, for this to prove intractable with his approach and it fizzles at IH. I am convinced that the demonstration of an effect is now so clear (and once the 2nd report is out, raised to a power) that if IH cannot deliver, others will (Remember the Chinese?). That, I feel, is the bottom line.

        But I do not belive this will be the case for a moment. This sounds like the typical teething you get with newly installed plant, espically when this is version 3 model #1. I mean, wow! This is perhaps 100 hot cats all in parallel in some sort of heat exchanger, with all the balancing and regulation of heat transfer that this implies. If we are hearing ‘It’s settled down, we’re just running up the days towards our 12 month target now’ message in perhaps 3-4 months from now..” I’ll be impressed.

        Folks, stand back, take stock, and realise how far we have come!

        Cheers

        Tim

        • Jonnyb

          Yeh it is always difficult when you are the first to do something. Things work well in the lab or workshop but always take many iterations to perfect the final model. I suspect the one they are working on now will be obsolete in a few years. You have to start somewhere. Once the cat is out of the bag to the mainstream you see how fast this will progress.

        • Gerrit

          Great observation Tim.

          We could however add more positive and negative things:

          C) the experiments over at quantumheat haven’t shown anything yet.
          D) the work at SKINR hasn’t produced any insights yet.
          E) many new phenomena are discovered almost daily with nanomaterials/catalysts.
          F) other commercial “cold fusion” devices seem to go through rounds of new capital and subsequent phases of new research/development, never reaching market quite yet.

          we can probably think of more…

          • timycelyn

            Nah. I agree this is a mushrooming field, and cannot even try and keep up with all the aspects of it – to be honest some of the examples you cite I only just recognise.

            Taking the points you make at face value, I agree there are a bunch more as well (eg the Nanor) lying on both sides of the ledger. However, I think this again runs the risk of getting too far into the detail, which can be baffling it its variability.

            I am standing back, and looking at the overall topography of what is going on, especially with Rossi. A lot of the detail you mention whilst no doubt true, is secondary to the basic point that there’s a real effect here, and, no matter how clumsily it happens, the truth will eventually come out. Some folk may have picked particularly stony roads to approach that truth, but positive results and evidence elsewhere reveals that it exists.

            Your last point (F) is the one that is hardest to answer and does twist my guts a little. But, as the famous saying goes: “Past results are not indicators of future performance…..”

            Cheers

            Tim

          • Gerrit

            Whatever there is, it will be understood eventually. From what I see today, either by standing back as far as I can, or getting in as close as possible, I can’t be sure that I will see the technology being utilized soon or within a certain time.

            It doesn’t exist out here, today, impacting our lives. There is still a possibility that it will never really become commercially available.

  • Ophelia Rump

    The commentary is becoming manic depressive, grand highs and crashing lows.
    What a freaking roller-coaster, just let out a good scream and a few laughs and try to hang on.

    • Brokeeper

      LOL

    • Unfortunately, these days I seem to be suppressing mostly screams of frustration. I must try really, really hard to pretend that I’m a grown up…

      • bachcole

        funny

  • Ophelia Rump

    It is an allusion to disillusion delusion.

    • Mark Szl

      They must have known this for quite sometime and they said nothing. Only now this is coming out. Why? Maybe the report would save them so they have come clean at this moment.

      • Ophelia Rump

        The sky is falling, the sky is falling, look a piece hit me on the head, right here!

        • Fortyniner

          No, that was just a bit of someone’s overblown expectations falling back to Earth.

      • GreenWin

        Gee Al, why’ve you got to be so negative? 🙂

    • Gerrit

      what does Rossi mean with “consolidated the situation” ? A few weeks ago Rossi said that the plant will have to run for months before he considers it running stably. Now with the minor problems that have to be solved first, that consolidation point is pushed back several months.

      I don’t think that solving the minor problems will take a full year, but that it is referring to the whole phase of getting the plant intergrated and running for several months.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Maybe a few weeks ago the plant was running correctly since (say) 4 months, in which case the 12 month epoch was 8 months ahead. But then problems emerged, they have to be solved, the plant modified, and a new 12 month period must be started.

        • pg

          Hi Pekka, welcome back. Have you had any contact with people involved directly or indirectly in the TPR 2?

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Hi, thanks. But no, I haven’t.

        • Fortyniner

          That would also be my take on Rossi’s words, and I hope that the engineering issues involved are not too profound. I can’t help feeling increasingly anxious though, about the ‘single track’ path of development that IH appears to be following. Surely a number of parallel development paths, perhaps under the control of competing teams, would be a more productive approach and a better use of R&D resources that must currently be standing idle.

          I hope that when the TIP report is published, through whatever channels, enough formerly doubting people are convinced of the reality of LENR that this provokes a flurry of replication attempts, and/or the emergence of ‘dark horse’ competitors who use the report results to increase their own credibility.

          • Ophelia Rump

            A fusion of the two. There will be competitors if they have to back-engineer the technology and find an alternative implementation.

          • Fortyniner

            Yes, I am sure there are probably many (ways of implementing HT LENR) and a wide range of minds will be needed to identify and explore even a few of them. Unfortunately, as far as we know, this simply isn’t happening. Rossi and his R&D team are seemingly focused on just a single technical solution, that may or may not be the optimal one.

            This is why I repeatedly express some frustration – not (just) because IH’s progress often seems plodding and linear, but because LENR – as the single most important technological development on the planet – seems to depend on a small team of 14 or 15 people going at their own speed, rather than on the competitive efforts of hundreds of major commercial research groups, which is what I believe is actually required.

            Perhaps things will change after the TIP report – but my gut feeling is that publication will take place with barely a ripple in either the complacent halls of academia or the pragmatic world of engineering R&D.

            Now I will scream and stamp my foot really hard….

          • John Littlemist

            Don’t worry, LENR does not depend on a single small team. Just to relief yourself, please read through this patent application by Etiam Inc.

            https://www.dropbox.com/s/46g0h84t93crjig/Etiam_oy_patenttihakemus.pdf

          • more than being few people, those few people don’t work together nor even help each others… that is loss of opportunity to go faster and better…

            anyway about the possibility of loss of the LENR technology, we have the essential information : it is possible

          • “to depend on a small team of 14 or 15 people working on a single project and going at their own speed”

            this is why the way to innovate should change.
            This project is done like 19th century invention… because corps are deterred by academics.

            I hope that when big corps will be able to work proudly on that subject, calling “friends”, and battling to be the quickest to deliver something that others will quickly exploit, and that will increase the value of what was just created … there will be tens of thousands of engineers working on various facets of the problem …

          • GreenWin

            I am greatly encouraged to see open dialog on ecosystems inclusive of planetary, solar system, galactic spheres. Perhaps the primary purpose of LENR is to bring planet Earth to a Kaku-Type One level. Higher standard of living for all human beings combined with abundant, sustainable energy will make the planet a reasonable candidate for Type One status. Thereafter we will need continuing help in evolving standards, education and conflict reduction. We are deeply appreciative for the guidance that has brought us this far. 🙂 It’s one heavenova ride!

          • for me LENR bring mostly locality and smaller quantum capital requirement.
            oil, nuke , taylorism, electric grid, are demanding huge capital, thus huge corps, huge monopolies.
            It demand also huge states which support those corps.

            the future is sharing platforms like uber, blablacar, ebay, airbnb, lenr CHP, with individual lending their own tiny capital to the community… as it happen in emerging countries today.

            the state is to disappear and to be replaced by city-state, canton-countryside, and big loose federation (like switzerland not like EU).

            nation is dead as you can see with individual people following terror, scientific or political directive from far away…

            why would you need a big state if you have bitcoin, airbnb, ebay, uber, to ensure insurance, charity, law and police taxes that the local district agree on. zone ca even agree on basic income paid by trade platform taxes… of course have to be tiny and proposing insurance to avoid people flee from the system…

          • GreenWin

            Fortyniner, I think we can be sure that this entire field of study and invention is quietly well populated by industry, military, and academia – under various pseudonyms. Scientific lexicon allows for all manner of disguise, e.g. “gas loaded metal hydrides,” “nanoplasmonics,” “condensed matter nuclear physics,” “Rydberg matter clusters,” “Bose Einstein Condensates,” etc.

            Since all these areas provide useful new products like transmutations and excess heat – they must be the focus of over-the-horizon R&D folks. What I see evolving is a fully tiered, masked technology transfer underway. At the topmost tier will be milspec applications, primarily Q-order naval propulsion and APUs. Below that we”ll see commercial scale heat and generation products like those discussed by IH. Also in this tier will be transfers to State entities to address environmental issues, e.g. Russia – large scale desalination, China – industrial power generation, India – microgrid distributed generation, etc.

            We can also expect to see different flavors of these “LENR” condensed matter systems e.g. DGT, E-Cat, Brillouin, BLP, STM, Etiam, Mitsubishi/Toyota/GE-commercial, etc. Mike McKubre flatly stated that no one entity would monopolize this technology. I believe he’s correct. But have a good yell and stomp – Lord knows the skeps have been wailing away for the last 4+ years. Difference is, they get paid to whine. We don’t. 🙂

      • Omega Z

        All part of 1 year.
        Rossi posted just a while back that he would be very occupied during September possibly around the clock for several days at a time.
        I don’t think anything has changed. Just additional details.

          • timycelyn

            Who knows? What do we know about the Tweeter?

          • Andreas Moraitis

            He could be identical with a person who made several posts on JoNP in autumn 2012, but under a different name. (Don’t ask me how I came to this conclusion. I can assure that I did not break any laws…) The posts do not look as if the person was an insider, at least with regard to Rossi.

          • Paul

            According to my searches, it seems related, in some way, to E-Cat Australia or, however, to such geographic area: see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DtJDFWtFsQ&index=7&list=PLC6DD49C27131539B

          • pg

            Do you know where are the rumors coming from?

          • Heath

            Friday evening is a terrible time to break any news. Politicians like to wait until Friday to release any uncomfortable news as it’s usually swept under the weekend rug. This report deserves a mid-week release when everyone is paying attention (and happy that it is mid-week). If so, I hope it is more for those of us who have been watching this carefully and waiting 6 months for the results and especially the undeniable the evidence that it delivers as promised. Still, it’s just another rumor.

          • Heath

            Actually, now that I think about it, how better a way not to rile the stock markets. After trading hours….

          • Rossi said that he gets the report 3 – 4 days before publication. Maybe this is related to that.

          • Hetah

            Very well could be..makes perfect sense.

          • Veblin

            smogm ‏@smogm 17m
            Sorry when I made to much expections! But rumors are growing day by day coming from sweden. Have a look there #ecat #lenr
            1:24 PM – 26 Sep 2014

          • Andreas Moraitis

            He just read the post by David Nygren from April (with the photo from Uppsala) and forgot to look at the date.

  • C. Kirk

    Perhaps a hint by Rossi of the expected COP (x 10) when he answered a question of Alutam…..
    Andrea Rossi

    September 25th, 2014 at 2:32 PM

    Alutam:

    I don’t have problems, I have opportunities ( x 10)

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    • bachcole

      Hey, James Tiberius Kirk, I am certain that he is NOT referring to a COP of 10. He is talking about having a huge number of opportunities, which he does.

      • Omega Z

        I do not have a problem. Just an opportunity.
        Rossi
        I do not have “X” problems. I have “X” opportunities.
        So he has many small problems to resolve…

  • Alan DeAngelis

    This sort of thing is par for the course. Here is the story of Frank Whittle’s jet engine.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83MlGnkIMKY

  • Alan DeAngelis

    This sort of thing is par for the course. Here is the story of Frank Whittle’s jet engine.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83MlGnkIMKY

    • Bob

      Frank Whittle was smart enough not to claim he had three years earlier, sold a jet plane to a secret military customer, and then claim it had performed perfectly for over 12 months.
      And he never claimed to have jet planes ready for market. Frank Whittle had a very good idea, which he was happy to disclose the workings of to numerous other people who helped determine IF it was a good idea and then help sort out the many problems to enable it to work properly. By doing that, jet engine technology rapidly became accepted best technology. It’s not hard to spot the differences btween that and the e-cat launch. If Whittle went down the same path as AR, he would still be examining the exhaust of the jet engine to see if there really was anything coming out the back.
      More than three years later we still don’t have any prospect of receiving the simple water heater which was going to keep our houses warm in winter and give us cheap hot water
      Always more delays, more problems, more vague and ambiguous announcements, to the extent that todays announcements are the same as those we heard three years ago.
      So today, the supposedly delivered 1MW plant which was supposed to be available for public viewing and confirmation, is now not available for anything for and extended and indeterminate time. Crediblity cannot be stretched indefinitely. It has a breaking point.

  • Mark Szl

    They must have known this for quite sometime and they said nothing. Only now this is coming out. Why? Maybe the report would save them so they have come clean at this moment.

    • Ophelia Rump

      The sky is falling, the sky is falling, look a piece hit me on the head, right here!

      • No, that was just a bit of someone’s overblown expectations falling back to Earth (perhaps mine).

        • Mark Szl

          Rossi’s overblown expectations? Maybe. Oh well, another year or more to go.

    • bachcole

      There is always a nefarious reason when I can’t get what I want when I want it.

  • Gerrit

    what does Rossi mean with “consolidated the situation” ? A few weeks ago Rossi said that the plant will have to run for months before he considers it running stably. Now with the minor problems that have to be solved first, that consolidation point is pushed back several months.

    I don’t think that solving the minor problems will take a full year, but that it is referring to the whole phase of getting the plant intergrated and running for several months.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Maybe a few weeks ago the plant was running correctly since (say) 4 months, in which case the 12 month epoch was 8 months ahead. But then problems emerged, they have to be solved, the plant modified, and a new 12 month period must be started.

      • pg

        Hi Pekka, welcome back. Have you had any contact with people involved directly or indirectly in the TPR 2?

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Hi, thanks. But no, I haven’t.

      • That would also be my take on Rossi’s words, and I hope that the engineering issues involved are not too profound. I can’t help feeling increasingly anxious though, about the ‘single track’ path of development that IH appears to be following. Surely a number of parallel development paths (and perhaps, multiple slightly differing ‘pilot plants’), possibly under the control of competing teams, would be a more productive approach and a better use of R&D resources that must currently be standing idle.

        I hope that when the TIP report is published, through whatever channels, enough formerly doubting people are convinced of the reality of LENR that this provokes a flurry of replication attempts, and/or the emergence of ‘dark horse’ competitors who use the report results to increase their own credibility.

        • Ophelia Rump

          A fusion of the two. There will be competitors if they have to back-engineer the technology and find an alternative implementation.

          • Yes, I am sure there are probably many (ways of implementing HT LENR), and a wide range of minds will be needed to identify and explore even a few of them in any reasonable time frame. Unfortunately, as far as we know, this simply isn’t happening. Rossi and his R&D team are seemingly focused on just a single technical solution, that may or may not be the optimal one.

            This is why I repeatedly express some frustration – not (just) because IH’s progress often seems plodding and linear/sequential, but because LENR – as the single most important technological development on the planet – seems to depend on a small team of 14 or 15 people working on a single project and going at their own speed, rather than on the competitive efforts of hundreds of major commercial research groups, which is what I believe is actually required.

            Perhaps things will change after the TIP report and any minority papers are published – but my gut feeling is that this will take place with barely a ripple in either the complacent halls of academia or the pragmatic world of engineering R&D, and it will of course be roundly ignored by the MSM. If IH have any say at all, it might even be better to delay publication until the pilot plant is finally ready to be opened to inspection, perhaps in a year or so.

            So as my contribution I am going to scream loudly and stamp my foot really hard….

          • John Littlemist

            Don’t worry, LENR does not depend on a single small team. Just to relief yourself, please read through this patent application by Etiam Inc.

            https://www.dropbox.com/s/46g0h84t93crjig/Etiam_oy_patenttihakemus.pdf

          • more than being few people, those few people don’t work together nor even help each others… that is loss of opportunity to go faster and better…

            anyway about the possibility of loss of the LENR technology, we have the essential information : it is possible

          • clovis ray

            hi, buddy.
            You are right of course, and it is possible to suppress this device, hard but not impossible, first thing would be to divide those of us in the know, and get us to be disgusted and leave the watchtower,

          • At this point it would be very easy to suppress public knowledge of LENR simply by interfering with the internet – something that is within the purview of the alphabet agencies that serve the interests of TPTB. If a few IPs were to be blocked on ‘national security’ grounds, and the search engines subsequently removed all references to the sites concerned, and to associated search terms, the job could be done overnight.

            The fact that it hasn’t, leads me to believe that LENR is to be ‘permitted’ to develop this time around, so long as it is under the control of those whose interests would otherwise be threatened.

          • don’t worry, there are big big corps with defence division, who know LENR exist and want to fund it, develop it…
            beside Toyota, Mitsubishi, Boeing, NI, China/Tianjin, Shell,BP…

            today I could relaunch most of what have been done since 25years in 3 years provided someone give me a billion and a good boss. (knowing where to search is enough, a kid of 15 with memory could inspire a corp boss)

          • “to depend on a small team of 14 or 15 people working on a single project and going at their own speed”

            this is why the way to innovate should change.
            This project is done like 19th century invention… because corps are deterred by academics, and job is done by maverick entrepreneurs.

            I hope that when big corps will be able to work proudly on that subject, calling “friends”, and battling to be the quickest to deliver something that others will quickly exploit, and that will increase the value of what was just created … there will be tens of thousands of engineers working on various facets of the problem …

            some hints
            http://www-935.ibm.com/services/us/gbs/thoughtleadership/ecosystempartnering/

          • GreenWin

            I am greatly encouraged to see open dialog on ecosystems inclusive of planetary, solar system, galactic spheres. Perhaps the primary purpose of LENR is to bring planet Earth to a Kaku-Type One level. Higher standard of living for all human beings combined with abundant, sustainable energy will make the planet a reasonable candidate for Type One status. Thereafter we will need continuing help in evolving standards, education and conflict reduction. We are deeply appreciative for the guidance that has brought us this far. 🙂 It’s one heavenova ride!

          • for me LENR bring mostly locality and smaller quantum capital requirement.
            oil, nuke , taylorism, electric grid, are demanding huge capital, thus huge corps, huge monopolies.
            It demand also huge states which support those corps.

            the future is sharing platforms like uber, blablacar, ebay, airbnb, lenr CHP, with individual lending their own tiny capital to the community… as it happen in emerging countries today.

            the state is to disappear and to be replaced by city-state, canton-countryside, and big loose federation (like switzerland not like EU).

            nation is dead as you can see with individual people following terror, scientific or political directive from far away…

            why would you need a big state if you have bitcoin, airbnb, ebay, uber, to ensure insurance, charity, law and police taxes that the local district agree on. zone ca even agree on basic income paid by trade platform taxes… of course have to be tiny and proposing insurance to avoid people flee from the system…

          • GreenWin

            Fortyniner, I think we can be sure that this entire field of study and invention is quietly well populated by industry, military, and academia – under various pseudonyms. Scientific lexicon allows for all manner of disguise, e.g. “gas loaded metal hydrides,” “nanoplasmonics,” “condensed matter nuclear physics,” “Rydberg matter clusters,” “Bose Einstein Condensates,” etc.

            Since all these areas provide useful new products like transmutations and excess heat – they must be the focus of over-the-horizon R&D folks. What I see evolving is a fully tiered, masked technology transfer underway. At the topmost tier will be milspec applications, primarily Q-order naval propulsion and APUs. Below that we”ll see commercial scale heat and generation products like those discussed by IH. Also in this tier will be transfers to State entities to address environmental issues, e.g. Russia – large scale desalination, China – industrial power generation, India – microgrid distributed generation, etc.

            We can also expect to see different flavors of these “LENR” condensed matter systems e.g. DGT, E-Cat, Brillouin, BLP, STM, Etiam, Mitsubishi/Toyota/GE-commercial, etc. Mike McKubre flatly stated that no one entity would monopolize this technology. I believe he’s correct. But have a good yell and stomp – Lord knows the skeps have been wailing away for the last 4+ years. Difference is, they get paid to whine. We don’t. 🙂

    • Omega Z

      All part of 1 year.
      Rossi posted just a while back that he would be very occupied during September possibly around the clock for several days at a time.
      I don’t think anything has changed. Just additional details.

  • GreenWin

    Why is there air, ronzonni?

  • jousterusa

    After the big 1.5% sell-off on Wall Street yesterday, I have to wonder if the government and the media will try to squash any anxiety over cheap energy when the TIP is made public. That kind of question would be absurd a few years ago, but now we know how profoundly the levers of the Information Age are manipulated by the NSA and other government agencies. Theoretically, they could have an algorithm that wipes any mention of the E-Cat and LENR off every website in America – or they could just have the interests of Big Oil and Big Gas and Big Power working on them. While I expect a very gradual blossom of awareness to open in the public mind as the news seeps in to nurture it, rather than a huge splash such as the Pons-Fleischmann announcement precipitated, the potential shock to world energy markets could be more substantial than a nuclear weapon in the Straits of Hormuz. How will governments around the world, OPEC and the affected companies react to that? The day after Pons-Fleischmann, they sank the Exxon Valdez and caused the biggest oil spill in history on the pristine shores of Alaska. For them, it was a small price to pay to remain on the top of the energy heap. Will they try something similar again, hoping to steal our thunder and scare the public as they organize the academic lynching party to hang Rossi in effigy?

    • Paul

      The oil problem is that current crisis is stopping investments for new drills, forcing to shortcuts in future. Regarding the public perception, I think it will not be a problem, because a smart research among public information on the web seems to show a link between an US giant, a “carrier Enterprise” for using Rossi’s words and the E-Cat or at least with Cherokee and IH. I am referring to a company linked to the US giant and where wiork 14 people, exactly the number mentioned by Rossi this summer…

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Did you mean this one?

        http://pogens.com/
        https://www.linkedin.com/company/power-generation-services-inc-

        Partner: http://www.causamenergy.com/
        (including link to the “carrier”)

        • Paul

          Have you still doubts? A press release we leave to the other readers will close the circle. The giant is linked also to the US Navy, in particular to the nuclear submarines, I cannot say more being military secret.

          • Fortyniner

            I think it’s called irony.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Unfortunately, all this is old news, including the press release you mention. However, when Rossi spoke with regard to his US partner of a “carrier”, I spontaneously thought of GE, due to their contribution to the production of aircraft carriers for the U.S. Navy. But without a confirmation I prefer to stay cautious. An official statement from GE would surely have a higher impact than a dozen 3rd party tests or research papers.

          • Paul

            In one of my previous post, I have given you an info which is not on the web, but you didn’t noticed it. However, due to the military secret, it will not be confirmed in public by anyone. I do not refer to the company’s name. You can easily understand that, for revolutionary technologies like this, military research for applications always anticipates research for civilian applications, like the effort made by IH. You cannot think that this last is possible if the first is not already guranteed in some way… That’s all for today.

          • Heath

            An excellent point and very true. The military would always come first with something like this and we’ve known for years that they (the Navy, Airforce, NASA, etc) have been very interest in Rossi’s development. Sometimes I think they brought Rossi to Darden initially.

          • BroKeeper

            They all know the name of Andrea Rossi.

      • JDM

        So as to say that if one cannot invest in IH, perhaps the second best investment might be HII?

        • Paul

          On the short term, it could make sense to invest on the “giant”, at the NY Stock Exchange, but I expect a strong thundestorm hit the stock market in 3 to 15 months since now, so I would not invest on it for this reason.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            So it cannot be Bechtel, since their shares are not publically traded. When it comes to submarine propulsion, the next candidate would be Babcock & Wilcox. Although perhaps one would not call them a “giant”:

            http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-us-navys-nuclear-propulsion-contracts-04752/

          • Paul

            If you find on Wikipedia United States nuclear reactors you will find the candidates. If you search the press releases related to Pogens you can draw your conclusions. US Navy has also a lab specialized on Lenr research, it is possible to find much material released by this lab, but not regarding the E-Cat, so the top US stakeholders perfectly know the value of this technology.

          • Paul

            Sorry, United States naval reactors, not nuclear reactors

          • JDM

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_submarine
            Latest class of subs use S9G powerplant.
            S=Submarine
            9=9th generation
            G=GE
            Subs built by Electric Boat and NNS (a division of HII)

          • JDM

            As a side note, NNS also built the original USS Enterprise carrier.

          • Paul

            We are talking of propulsion, not of the overall ship, so you can throw away two names. You can see also google Nuclear Marine Propulsion by mragheb, and look for Virginia class…

          • JDM

            One would think the shipbuilder would have to be intimately involved in a new propulsion source, no?

          • Paul

            No, normally they are different, and in other countries and other Navvies it is the same. The military ships are an assembly of parts made by different manufacturers… The project is made by Navy or by a general contractor, which choose the producer for every important single part according to its needs for the single class of ships. So Virginia class, Ohio class and so on normally are different regarding the companies involved.

          • Heath

            So Westinghouse or GE? And GE would be a giant…

    • Ophelia Rump

      Is a 1.5% sell off highly significant?
      I gather that is some kind of signal to you.

      • jousterusa

        No, it is not “highly” significant, but you always have to worry at this time of the year near the end of the month that a big sell-off may accelerate on Friday and burst open like a fat water balloon on Monday morning. I don’t think that will happen right now – maybe later in the month – but the decline yesterday was significant enough to raise concern and ro keep our eyes open, especially since it was predicated – according to the analysts, who are often wrong – on global unrest. If it truly was the cause, it’s strange since Saudi and UAE jets successfully attacked a lot of the ISIS refineries where their money is “manufactured,” so there should have been some relief. War can always create great volatility overnight, and investors may be pulling back with awareness of that.

        • Ophelia Rump

          The Ebola is more significant than the war right now, Ebola will fight the war and win, you might consider that. The CDC and WHO have been burying the data for most of Sept, after the rate of spread went from a multiplier of 2 a month to 3.7.

          They are stating a current multiplier of 2.5 is being used monthly, but to match the data points in the CDC predictions I had to use 3.

          What it all means is that the CDC is hiding the fact that they probably are too late to stop this from going out of control. The WHO is either going dark with the numbers, or have no idea what is happening now.

          If you use the real worst case scenario 3.7 rather than 3 then by January there are over 5 million cases. The difference is not significant except that it shows how quickly this is becoming impossible to stop.

          Most of next months victims are already infected, and by November there will just be too many to handle. They have one month to stop this cold, or Africa is down to 30% population or less, and the rest of the third world probably goes with it. If couple of infected reach Mecca for the pilgrimage and you can picture the rest.

          You might think that .75 million dead is a lot better than 2.5 million dead by Jan, but the truth is with exponential growth that by the time the numbers get high enough to run out of victims there is only a month or two difference.

          I am not faulting the CDC. They used a number high enough to motivate the response they need, and tried to keep panic potential to a minimum. Wall Street may have a lot of adjusting to do between now and the spring. There are probably 40K infected now without symptoms, doubling every 15 days. In one month 40K isolation unit beds will not be enough, and all order shattered.

          • clovis ray

            Hi, miss O,
            That was a thoughtful comment, president Obama gave a good warning to the people of the world yesterday, if you haven’t seen it you should, if you care about this very very important subject, he laid out what the u.s. is doing, and that we can’t do it alone, the u.s. can not fix this by themselves, the world has to help.
            you can find his address to the oboli conference at the u.n.
            on C-span,

          • Ophelia Rump

            Yes, thank you I saw it. In truth, it seems only the Africans can actually implement any meaningful resolution. If they can maintain order and organize a rapid response with international aid.

          • Paul

            I analysed the WHO’s data on Ebola 2014 by myself. Extrapolating them linearly, gives a prediction of about 20.000 infected (and half deaths) at the end of this year (the guess was made at the beginning of August, now the situation is slightly worst so I guess a recalculation would double the previous numbers). The WHO does not make projections. CDC make its projection with 2 hypothesis: the infected are now 2,5 those WHO estimates and a future exponential growth. However, from the actual data that I have processed 3 weeks ago the growth is not clearly exponential (it is something like a steep line only in Liberia, while the other countries are less problematic regarding the growth rate), so CDC’s projection represents a worst case scenario, which like all the extreme scenarios is highly improbable. You can also do your own projection here: http://www.healthmap.org/ebola/#projection. This does not mean that the situation is not extremely dangerous, because when (not if) the first people will became infected in a Western country, we could have panic and a big stock market fall, for the Sars there was a 30% fall in 2002.

          • it is drammatic, but people react better to drammatic situation than to simple troubles.

            in previous Ebolat outbreak the vector of transmition was traditional medecine exchanging blood and alike… bad hospital with bad practive did the job too.
            currently there are some scandal with awful hospital and still the traditional medecine.
            both are dying, so they are eliminated.

            quickly after in previous outbreak the locals started to forget traditional and colonial /NGO medicine to used simple medieval practice. forced quarantine and burning houses.

            in western organization we have all the similar stupidity called “precaution”. Taleb explains well that when you are in good health you should not take any risk with medicine , even to slightly improve you health… it can make things much worse while curing few.

            however for really deadly risk or disease, you should not be afraid to nearly poison you… chemotherapy , radiotherapy are ok for a deadly cancer, not for acne.

            I see that some started to test immunization and antiviral without the usual 10years process…

            precaution principle is something so new and unverified that applying it lead to not applying it … too dangerous facing real evil or simply the future.

          • jousterusa

            Even the conservative prediction of 1,425,0000 cases I saw last night on NBC News is awfully scary – and where does it go from there? I think it is extraordinary that an American president has had the foresight to understand how important it was to stop the spread of Ebola that he has dispatched 3,000 troops to build 17 facilities to care for the victims. I think this pretty much unprecedented in human history!

          • Andreas Moraitis

            IH just want to deliver a good product, and for this attitude we should be grateful to them – even if we have to wait somewhat longer. Remember the early versions of Windows? Microsoft made millions by sales, but millions of users felt very unhappy at the same time. The problem is to find the balance between the desired grade of perfection of a new product and the time of market launch. Surely, there are many unknowns in the equation, but I’m confident that Darden & colleagues know what they do.

            Regarding information policy and “open access”: As far as I remember, there has never been a successful “free” product that has been developed without the prior existence of a competing mercantile product. Linux would perhaps not exist, or only in a rudimentary form, if there had been no commercial operating systems which could be taken as an example. (The history of UNIX, the core technology of Linux, is more complex; therefore, I’m not going to refer to it here.)

            Giving away intellectual property may be an option at a certain time, but if it occurs too early it would certainly be counterproductive. Anyhow, in most cases it will happen automatically as soon as the patent rights expire.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I software, the situation might not be as obvious as I wrote, since there are fortunately a lot of useful freeware applications available, partly even together with their source code. But software is a special case, since it can be easily transported. Besides, for its development you need just a computer and an IDE. But from where do you get the computer? Hardware is a different matter, the “open source” idea cannot be simply transferred to it. Surely, it would be nice if we had one day a “Free Cat”, which would be safe and reliable, but simple enough to be built in a garage. But without the professional work of Rossi and others I strongly doubt that we would see it ever.

          • pelgrim108

            There are people doing OS Hardware http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Nice! I only wonder how they manage the costs. And one should not forget that such a project would not have been possible without the previous achievements of the ‘classical’ industry.

          • pelgrim108

            Open Source Ecology is incorporated as a nonprofit organization.They have volunteers contributing, and are funded by the Shuttleworth Foundation. The basic idea is: Modular DIY open source hardware.
            Here is a nice intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GEMkvT0DEk

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Software is indeed a special case because it’s easy to copy and transport. When I was a doctoral student in early 1990’s, I remember that I didn’t appreciate portability of software at all. I though that I just needed to program THIS computer NOW, so why bother writing portable code, also because the next computer would be completely different anyway. I don’t know if anyone else was that stupid, but if someone was, then it indicates that the idea of software portability leading to the opensource movement was not so self-evident to discover as it sounds nowadays.

          • bachcole

            Anyone with the integrity and humility to be able to call himself “stupid” is my kind of guy. (:->) My expression of stupidity came in the form of thinking that I was not capable.

          • Paul

            I think that one day your Free Cat concept could see the light, for three reasons: also not entering here in details the reactor seems extremely simple, it is hard to protect the IP of a so simple product unless you try to add a fictitious complexity, and I doubt that the most relevant patents will be granted.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Paul, is it a mystery to you (as it is to me) why the 1 MW plant is (in AR’s words) complicated if the individual reactor is simple?

          • Paul

            No, I refer to the single reactor without a sophisticated control system. I cannot be more precise regarding the second part of your question, citing the 1 MW plant, because I do not remember the words you are referring to. However, I guess he refers or to the fact that interfacing an E-Cat to an industrial plant is not so easy the first time or to the fact that a 1 MW system is more complex because it consists of many reactors and of a complex control system for the stability of the reactions.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Thanks, Paul, I’m referring to his statement September 26th, 2014 at 9:31 PM “Steven N. Karels: As you correctly say, it is impossible that an important plant does not
            have an initial period of assessment. Our plant is a very complex thing
            and we are making all the necessary work to deliver it respecting all
            the guarantees we gave to our Customer…”

          • Fortyniner

            I don’t think that physical complexity of the reactors themselves is required – the heat exchanger probably comprises simply a number of reactor casings bolted into a water tank. As Paul says, the complexity is probably in the control system and the switching banks for the heater current.

            If the reactors have complex responses, which may even require mapping for each individual core, the control system will rely on predictive algorithms responding to demand registered at a number of sensors, and modified by programmed-in data on response curves and latency. The heater current switching may also be much more complex than simple on/off, and might involve for instance Variacs with electro-mechanical actuators, or similar arrangements requiring a dedicated sub-controller.

            The operating range of the reactors could be very narrow, and at this stage a complicated balancing act is probably needed to keep things stable in the face of demand that may vary quite suddenly. I suspect that the whole thing is probably a bit of an engineering nightmare in practice.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Apparently, they already have a system that is able to handle a sudden drop in heat demand:

            Q: What would happen if the customer were forced to stop his production suddenly by some reason, so that the 1 MW plant would have to go in idle mode, without prior warning? Is there already a solution for such a scenario?

            AR: Of course. Also is provided a solution in case of malfunction of the 1 MW plant, by means of a back up made using the traditional energy source.

            It would be interesting to know how they exactly withdraw surplus heat. As you say, they might use tanks or external heat sinks. Perhaps they could use even tap water if there is a sufficient flow rate, but the possibility of a breakdown of water supply would imply an additional risk. 1 MW is a lot of power, and I expect the equipment for emergency cooling to be quite big, perhaps bigger than the plant itself.

          • Omega Z

            Yes, Lucky man. But she wont forget, THEY NEVER FORGET. he he he he he ha ha.

          • Daniel Maris

            I don’t think Rossi is an angel of truth, but the statements are not necessarily contradictory.

            You could in effect have two teams – one managing the device (under Rossi’s general supervision and with him visiting frequently to make sure everything is going OK) and one (the test team) measuring inputs and outputs, checking for fraud and studying the residues.

            They may be interacting, but there is no reason to suppose the test team were supplying Rossi with details of the results.

      • as far as I hear of it it is linked to Dollar getting more expensive and risking to hinder exports.

        • Omega Z

          It has much to do with the Fed’s preparing to turn off the printers.

    • Omega Z

      What a person should really be concerned with is if LENR technology can be implemented fast enough to counter a decline in economically accessible energy.

      In Grade school, We were taught that the U.S. had enough coal reserves to last 500 years. 25 years later it became 250 years. Today it’s 100 years. Projections always tend to be based on a static situation. There not. The U.S. both increased use of & exports of coal. And Energy demands will continue to increase around the world.
      Note that even tho the U.S. has been switching from coal to N-gas, Coal production as of yet has hardly been effected. Exports have increased offsetting much of the switch.

      In 40 years, the situation will likely be quite dire. Regardless of wind/solar energy. I only hope society can achieve a teeter totter situation with LENR introduction offsetting fossil fuel peek & decline.

      People give big oil to little credit. They are well aware their days are limited. You don’t need to run out of oil to be out of business. Just to costly. You won’t sell much gas at $20 a gallon & without large Volume’s they go broke. Big Oil will have little concern of LENR. By the time it effects them, it wont matter much. More likely they will look for investment opportunities in LENR or other opportunities opened up by it. Investments are investments. Product don’t matter all that much.

      In the U.S., we hear the talking heads spout the U.S. has 1000 years of N-gas reserves. Based as usual on a static situation. Coal is our primary source of electrically. When it’s gone, you switch to N-gas. Same with oil. That 1000 year reserve shrank substantially & along with exports & continued demand increase things start looking shaky. 100, 200 years at most. If the numbers are correct to begin with. These are after all just educated guesses on what we may be able to access economically.

      • jousterusa

        Yours are some very educated guesses, and I thank you for your thoughts. They do reveal a “fly in the ointment,” as they say, with respect to Rossi and IH’s plans as we know them. If there is a wholesale conversion to E-Cat technology (and ro competitors’ products, like Blacklight’s, for instance – then the cost of maintaining a supply sufficient for demand may become too great for some refiners. In that event, our government oil reserves could help. But the flaw is that Rossi doesn’t plan to provide E-Cats for residential uses except in a second stage, and has not yet started any serious research (at least that I’m aware of) on the use of E-Cat technology in cars. You could see gasoline producers and stations go out of business before E-Cat or Blacklight’s CIHT-cell vehicles come on line. The home E-Cats would replace more residential natural gas consumption than oil consumption, I think, and NG is unlikely to face shortages. But conversion will, as you say, necessarily entail some major dislocations in the energy markets.

        • Fortyniner

          As long as the majority of vehicles need petrol and diesel fuels, enough demand will remain to continue to provide profits to refiners, who will also continue to supply a host of other users from plastics manufacturers, fertiliser and chemical suppliers, to makers of bituminous road materials.

          There is though a potential ‘halfway house’ solution for many vehicles, which is LPG conversion. Conversion of petrol driven vehicles is a simple matter and not too expensive, there is a growing network of cylinder exchange stations (the process could be automated). The cost of compressing natural gas could potentially be very low if electricity becomes a lot cheaper (a possible sticking point).

          The problem of fueling diesel engines would remain of course, and these may go the way of steam road transport rather more quickly than petrol engines.

      • jousterusa

        One excellent point you make is that Rossi’s vision has already survived a number of attempts, like Defkalion’s, that might have derailed a lesser mind. I think that is quite remarkable in itself.

    • BroKeeper

      IMO, the technological expectation factor of energies in-the-know is already asserting pressure on the market. The more it is repressed the bigger the discharge of negative repercussions of those holding its lid on. Few I know of want to be associated with holding back humanities survival when the eventuality is looming. There will be attempts but the pressure, I believe, is already too far exceeding the counter energy to contain it.

  • jousterusa

    After the big 1.5% sell-off on Wall Street yesterday, I have to wonder if the government and the media will try to squash any anxiety over cheap energy when the TIP is made public. That kind of question would be absurd a few years ago, but now we know how profoundly the levers of the Information Age are manipulated by the NSA and other government agencies. Theoretically, they could have an algorithm that wipes any mention of the E-Cat and LENR off every website in America – or they could just have the interests of Big Oil and Big Gas and Big Power working on them. While I expect a very gradual blossom of awareness to open in the public mind as the news seeps in to nurture it, rather than a huge splash such as the Pons-Fleischmann announcement precipitated, the potential shock to world energy markets could be more substantial than a nuclear weapon in the Straits of Hormuz. How will governments around the world, OPEC and the affected companies react to that? The day after Pons-Fleischmann, they sank the Exxon Valdez and caused the biggest oil spill in history on the pristine shores of Alaska. For them, it was a small price to pay to remain on the top of the energy heap. Will they try something similar again, hoping to steal our thunder and scare the public as they organize the academic lynching party to hang Rossi in effigy?

    • Paul

      The oil problem is that current crisis is stopping investments for new drills, forcing to shortcuts in future. Regarding the public perception, I think it will not be a problem, because a smart research among public information on the web seems to show a link between an US giant, a “carrier Enterprise” for using Rossi’s words and the E-Cat or at least with Cherokee and IH. I am referring to a company linked to the US giant and where wiork 14 people, exactly the number mentioned by Rossi this summer…

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Did you mean this one?

        http://pogens.com/
        https://www.linkedin.com/company/power-generation-services-inc-

        Partner: http://www.causamenergy.com/
        (including link to the “carrier”)

        • Paul

          Have you still doubts? A press release we leave to the other readers will close the circle. The giant is linked also to the US Navy, in particular to the nuclear submarines, I cannot say more being military secret.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Unfortunately, all this is old news, including the press release you mention. However, when Rossi spoke with regard to his US partner of a “carrier”, I spontaneously thought of GE, due to their contribution to the production of aircraft carriers for the U.S. Navy. But without a confirmation I prefer to stay cautious. An official statement from GE would surely have a higher impact than a dozen 3rd party tests or research papers.

          • Paul

            In one of my previous post, I have given you an info which is not on the web, but you didn’t noticed it. However, due to the military secret, it will not be confirmed in public by anyone. I do not refer to the company’s name. You can easily understand that, for revolutionary technologies like this, military research for applications always anticipates research for civilian applications, like the effort made by IH. You cannot think that this last is possible if the first is not already guranteed in some way… That’s all for today.

          • Heath

            An excellent point and very true. The military would always come first with something like this and we’ve known for years that they (the Navy, Airforce, NASA, etc) have been very interest in Rossi’s development. Sometimes I think they brought Rossi to Darden initially.

          • Brokeeper

            √ They all know the name Andrea Rossi.

      • JDM

        So as to say that if one cannot invest in IH, perhaps the second best investment might be HII?

        • Paul

          On the short term, it could make sense to invest on the “giant”, at the NY Stock Exchange, but I expect a strong thundestorm hit the stock market in 3 to 15 months since now, so I would not invest on it for this reason.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            So it cannot be Bechtel, since their shares are not publically traded. When it comes to submarine propulsion, the next candidate would be Babcock & Wilcox. Although perhaps one would not call them a “giant”:

            http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-us-navys-nuclear-propulsion-contracts-04752/

          • Paul

            If you find on Wikipedia United States nuclear reactors you will find the candidates. If you search the press releases related to Pogens you can draw your conclusions. US Navy has also a lab specialized on Lenr research, it is possible to find much material released by this lab, but not regarding the E-Cat, so the top US stakeholders perfectly know the value of this technology.

          • Paul

            Sorry, United States naval reactors, not nuclear reactors

          • JDM

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_submarine
            Latest class of subs use S9G powerplant.
            S=Submarine
            9=9th generation
            G=GE
            Subs built by Electric Boat and NNS (a division of HII)

          • JDM

            As a side note, NNS also built the original USS Enterprise carrier.

          • Paul

            We are talking of propulsion, not of the overall ship, so you can throw away two names. You can see also google Nuclear Marine Propulsion by mragheb, and look for Virginia class…

          • JDM

            One would think the shipbuilder would have to be intimately involved in a new propulsion source, no?

          • Paul

            No, normally they are different, and in other countries and other Navvies it is the same. The military ships are an assembly of parts made by different manufacturers… The project is made by Navy or by a general contractor, which choose the producer for every important single part according to its needs for the single class of ships. So Virginia class, Ohio class and so on normally are different regarding the companies involved.

          • Heath

            So Westinghouse or GE? And GE would be a giant…

    • Ophelia Rump

      Is a 1.5% sell off highly significant?
      I gather that is some kind of signal to you.

      • jousterusa

        No, it is not “highly” significant, but you always have to worry at this time of the year near the end of the month that a big sell-off may accelerate on Friday and burst open like a fat water balloon on Monday morning. I don’t think that will happen right now – maybe later in the month – but the decline yesterday was significant enough to raise concern and ro keep our eyes open, especially since it was predicated – according to the analysts, who are often wrong – on global unrest. If it truly was the cause, it’s strange since Saudi and UAE jets successfully attacked a lot of the ISIS refineries where their money is “manufactured,” so there should have been some relief. War can always create great volatility overnight, and investors may be pulling back with awareness of that.

        • Ophelia Rump

          The Ebola is more significant than the war right now, Ebola will fight the war and win, you might consider that. The CDC and WHO have been burying the data for most of Sept, after the rate of spread went from a multiplier of 2 a month to 3.7.

          They are stating a current multiplier of 2.5 is being used monthly, but to match the data points in the CDC predictions I had to use 3.

          What it all means is that the CDC is hiding the fact that they probably are too late to stop this from going out of control. The WHO is either going dark with the numbers, or have no idea what is happening now.

          If you use the real worst case scenario 3.7 rather than 3 then by January there are over 5 million cases. The difference is not significant except that it shows how quickly this is becoming impossible to stop.

          Most of next months victims are already infected, and by November there will just be too many to handle. They have one month to stop this cold, or Africa is down to 30% population or less, and the rest of the third world probably goes with it. If a couple of infected reach Mecca for the pilgrimage, you can picture the rest.

          You might think that .75 million dead is a lot better than 2.5 million dead by Jan, but the truth is with exponential growth that by the time the numbers get high enough to run out of victims there is only a month or two difference, the whole thing will be over by early summer, unless it can take hold in first world countries.

          I am not faulting the CDC. They used a number high enough to motivate the response they need, and tried to keep panic potential to a minimum. Wall Street may have a lot of adjusting to do between now and the spring. There are probably 40K infected now without symptoms, doubling every 15 days. In one month 40K isolation unit beds will not be enough, and all order shattered. Jets in the air, Ebola on the ground.

          • clovis ray

            Hi, miss O,
            That was a thoughtful comment, president Obama gave a good warning to the people of the world yesterday, if you haven’t seen it you should, if you care about this very very important subject, he laid out what the u.s. is doing, and that we can’t do it alone, the u.s. can not fix this by themselves, the world has to help.
            you can find his address to the oboli conference at the u.n.
            on C-span,

          • Ophelia Rump

            Yes, thank you I saw it. In truth, it seems only the Africans can actually implement any meaningful resolution. If they can maintain order and organize a rapid response with international aid.

          • Paul

            I analysed the WHO’s data on Ebola 2014 by myself. Extrapolating them linearly, gives a prediction of about 20.000 infected (and half deaths) at the end of this year (the guess was made at the beginning of August, now the situation is slightly worst so I guess a recalculation would double the previous numbers). The WHO does not make projections. CDC make its projection with 2 hypothesis: the infected are now 2,5 those WHO estimates and a future exponential growth. However, from the actual data that I have processed 3 weeks ago the growth is not clearly exponential (it is something like a steep line only in Liberia, while the other countries are less problematic regarding the growth rate), so CDC’s projection represents a worst case scenario, which like all the extreme scenarios is highly improbable. You can also do your own projection here: http://www.healthmap.org/ebola/#projection. This does not mean that the situation is not extremely dangerous, because when (not if) the first people will became infected in a Western country, we could have panic and a big stock market fall, for the Sars there was a 30% fall in 2002.

          • it is drammatic, but people react better to drammatic situation than to simple troubles.

            in previous Ebolat outbreak the vector of transmition was traditional medecine exchanging blood and alike… bad hospital with bad practive did the job too.
            currently there are some scandal with awful hospital and still the traditional medecine.
            both are dying, so they are eliminated.

            quickly after in previous outbreak the locals started to forget traditional and colonial /NGO medicine to used simple medieval practice. forced quarantine and burning houses.

            in western organization we have all the similar stupidity called “precaution”. Taleb explains well that when you are in good health you should not take any risk with medicine , even to slightly improve you health… it can make things much worse while curing few.

            however for really deadly risk or disease, you should not be afraid to nearly poison you… chemotherapy , radiotherapy are ok for a deadly cancer, not for acne.

            I see that some started to test immunization and antiviral without the usual 10years process…

            precaution principle is something so new and unverified that applying it lead to not applying it … too dangerous facing real evil or simply the future.

          • bachcole

            I and all health professions said exactly the same thing about AIDS in the early 1980s when it was first emerging. These kinds of figures are based upon the assumption that we all have the same immune strength and that the rapidity of the spread of the disease from person to person would remain the same. Both of those assumptions were wrong. Consequently AIDS is restricted mostly to the gay community even after 34 years and will NEVER become an Armageddon disease. But in the early days in San Francisco, it was very scary.

            People getting Ebola and dying are insufficiently nourished by western standards. I cannot see (at this time) the spread being slowed down just because of our white skin, but I don’t see people dying so much from it. And of course, medical people are learning how to deal with it better also, such as giving constant water I.V.s, because Ebola is mostly about dehydration.

            Yes, it might get dicey for society. Social services could take a joe lewis blow, but we will survive. Personally, I am not afraid of the Ebola germ; the Ebola germ needs to be afraid of me. I work at being healthy; 1.5 years ago I writhed in pain and became practically crippled. Now I can walk almost perfectly normally with only a smidgen of discomfort, and I executed this healing (all by myself) when I was 67 to 69 years old.

            My best recommendations for Ebola defence in order, the best first: 6 grams of vitamin C taken through-out the day; rebounding; a low carb diet; plenty of green salads. But study them before you put down any money. Ignore the skeptopaths. Your health and life is not an academic exercise; they are too important to be undermined by skeptopaths who only care about being right.

          • Ophelia Rump

            I do not think you understand that the numbers are not a prophecy but a current trajectory. Where it is going now and how much damage it would do if no variables changed over a period of time. I am not concerned for myself or you. Just the people of the other half of the planet’s population. I am ignoring the abnormally high mutation rate for the moment.

          • jousterusa

            Even the conservative prediction of 1,425,0000 cases I saw last night on NBC News is awfully scary – and where does it go from there? I think it is extraordinary that an American president has had the foresight to understand how important it was to stop the spread of Ebola that he has dispatched 3,000 troops to build 17 facilities to care for the victims. I think this pretty much unprecedented in human history!

          • bachcole

            The America haters will ignore it.

          • bachcole

            I apologize for being so stupid and self-centered that it took this long for Ophelia to convince me that this problem needs more attention and concern, even though I personally won’t be getting sick. I think that Ophelia turned me when she pointed out that there are millions of insufficiently nourished and otherwise unhealthy people all around the globe, especially in Africa and Asia. The numbers are really quite staggering. Even if we are not looking at a Black Plague, the impact on our resources and morale will hurt EVERYONE on Planet Earth. I believe that it will be worse than the 1919 Spanish Flu.

            I realize that what I am going to say does not make a lot of sense: Person A is a healthy dude. Person B not so much. If person A gets the flu, his/her reaction to the flu may be minor. Person B will obviously hurt more. No surprises so far. If Person C catches the “same” bug from Person A, their episode of flu will be much less difficult than if they had caught it from Person B.

      • as far as I hear of it it is linked to Dollar getting more expensive and risking to hinder exports.

        • Omega Z

          It has much to do with the Fed’s preparing to turn off the printers.

    • Omega Z

      What a person should really be concerned with is if LENR technology can be implemented fast enough to counter a decline in economically accessible energy.

      In Grade school, We were taught that the U.S. had enough coal reserves to last 500 years. 25 years later it became 250 years. Today it’s 100 years. Projections always tend to be based on a static situation. There not. The U.S. both increased use of & exports of coal. And Energy demands will continue to increase around the world.
      Note that even tho the U.S. has been switching from coal to N-gas, Coal production as of yet has hardly been effected. Exports have increased offsetting much of the switch.

      In 40 years, the situation will likely be quite dire. Regardless of wind/solar energy. I only hope society can achieve a teeter totter situation with LENR introduction offsetting fossil fuel peek & decline.

      People give big oil to little credit. They are well aware their days are limited. You don’t need to run out of oil to be out of business. Just to costly. You won’t sell much gas at $20 a gallon & without large Volume’s they go broke. Big Oil will have little concern of LENR. By the time it effects them, it wont matter much. More likely they will look for investment opportunities in LENR or other opportunities opened up by it. Investments are investments. Product don’t matter all that much.

      In the U.S., we hear the talking heads spout the U.S. has 1000 years of N-gas reserves. Based as usual on a static situation. Coal is our primary source of electrically. When it’s gone, you switch to N-gas. Same with oil. That 1000 year reserve shrank substantially & along with exports & continued demand increase things start looking shaky. 100, 200 years at most. If the numbers are correct to begin with. These are after all just educated guesses on what we may be able to access economically.

      • jousterusa

        Yours are some very educated guesses, and I thank you for your thoughts. They do reveal a “fly in the ointment,” as they say, with respect to Rossi and IH’s plans as we know them. If there is a wholesale conversion to E-Cat technology (and ro competitors’ products, like Blacklight’s, for instance – then the cost of maintaining a supply sufficient for demand may become too great for some refiners. In that event, our government oil reserves could help. But the flaw is that Rossi doesn’t plan to provide E-Cats for residential uses except in a second stage, and has not yet started any serious research (at least that I’m aware of) on the use of E-Cat technology in cars. You could see gasoline producers and stations go out of business before E-Cat or Blacklight’s CIHT-cell vehicles come on line. The home E-Cats would replace more residential natural gas consumption than oil consumption, I think, and NG is unlikely to face shortages. But conversion will, as you say, necessarily entail some major dislocations in the energy markets.

        • As long as the majority of vehicles need petrol and diesel fuels, enough demand will remain to continue to provide profits to refiners, who will also continue to supply a host of other users from plastics manufacturers, fertiliser and chemical suppliers, to makers of bituminous road materials.

          There is though a potential ‘halfway house’ solution for many vehicles, which is LPG conversion. Conversion of petrol driven vehicles is a simple matter and not too expensive, there is a growing network of cylinder exchange stations (the process could be automated). The cost of compressing natural gas could potentially be very low if electricity becomes a lot cheaper (a possible sticking point).

          The problem of fueling diesel engines would remain of course, and these may go the way of steam road transport rather more quickly than petrol engines.

    • Brokeeper

      IMO, the technological expectation factor of energies in-the-know is already asserting pressure on the market. The more it is repressed the bigger the discharge of negative repercussions of those holding its lid on. Few I know wish to be associated with holding back humanities survival when the eventuality is looming. There will be attempts but the pressure, I believe, is already too far exceeding the counter energy of deception to contain it.

    • Broncobet

      1.5% isn’t close to big.

  • blanco69

    So. A year’s worth of problem fixing for a shipping container full of steam generators. Yesterday we had indications that the 3rd party report was going to be 100% positive and blow away our current understanding of physics. If you knew such a report was about to be published and know then that the subsequent rush for investment would follow. Why then would you be certain that you needed a full year’s tinker time when you would have about half the western world’s investment money at your disposal to help usher in a new world order. Rossi is working in a garage with a spanner and a welding torch if he needs a year to iron out 1MW issues and by predicting a year to get it working means that he sees no change to that scenario in the next 12 months. My belief in this is stretched to the limit.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Because you designed a system biased toward the anticipated high pressure high temperature steam at one volume, and the customer wants lower pressure lower temperature steam at a greater volume?

      I am sure there could be a hundred reasons.

  • blanco69

    So. A year’s worth of problem fixing for a shipping container full of steam generators. Yesterday we had indications that the 3rd party report was going to be 100% positive and blow away our current understanding of physics. If you knew such a report was about to be published and know then that the subsequent rush for investment would follow. Why then would you be certain that you needed a full year’s tinker time when you would have about half the western world’s investment money at your disposal to help usher in a new world order. Rossi is working in a garage with a spanner and a welding torch if he needs a year to iron out 1MW issues and by predicting a year to get it working means that he sees no change to that scenario in the next 12 months. My belief in this is stretched to the limit.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Because you designed a system biased toward the anticipated high pressure high temperature steam at one volume, and the customer wants lower pressure lower temperature steam at a greater volume?

      I am sure there could be a hundred reasons. The customer is not buying a bunch of nuclear reactors, they are buying a big old water heating system for a very particular set of needs.

    • bachcole

      No. I think that your patience is stretched to the limit, and that is your issue, not Rossi’s and not reality’s.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Wherein they learn that the customers needs were not necessarily within their programs current operating parameters. This sounds more like a market issue than a science issue to me.
    Opportunities not foreseen. New parameters, broader markets, win win relationship.

  • timycelyn

    We seem to be so caught up in the switchback of joy and disillusion regarding the 1Mw plant at the Customer and the upcoming 2IP report, that I thought it was time to stand back a little.

    Lest we forget, here are some reminders….

    A) There is a real, anomalous heat generating effect that cannot be accounted for by application of current regular understanding of chemistry and physics.
    * Multiple validations and studies by a wide slew of researchers. Different techniques, different materials, but probably all enocmpassed in the same territory of unexplored and unrecognised phyisics or chemistry – right on the borderline between the two disciplines.
    * Rossi’s technique and equipment produces large amounts of heat. The first Independent test was actaully conclusive, and the criticisms of it were, IMHO academic/theoretical; anyone who actually and seriously proposes that these tests were fake needs help with their obviously tenuous understanding of reality.

    B) Everyone who gets close to Rossi’s technology is convinced of its total reality.
    * IH will have performed extensive due diligence. Subsequent to acquisition, they obviously are in a very hands – on mode, their people are making the kit. They have had plenty of time to go ‘Oh no, it’s a scam/it never works etc’ and cut their losses. Instead, they are investing and have the confidence to take a customer order and deliver. (OK, no doubt under special agreement relating to the fact it is the first and may need support and work on site..).
    * All those who have got close to the technology for a period of time (not the sometimes brief demos with Rossi’s paranoia in evidence, like with that Rivet idiot) seem to be convinced of the reality of his technology and the large amounts of heat produced. Where are the dissenters saying “Was with him for x months. Used to believe in it but I never saw it work, I became disillusioned, then I realised I was being scammed and left…. ” Not one. Nada. Zilch. Quite the opposite, even those who for commercial reasons (like the pre-IH distributors) he had to part company with.

    So, lets take a big breath, count to ten, and keep a sense of reality here. Sure, the new plant is having teething troubles, and I agree with 49’er that this has probably reset some 12 month uninterrupted running thing with the customer, hence Rossi’s (typically ambiguous) comment.

    We are way past ‘Is this real or is it smoke and mirrors?’ It’s totally real. The very very worst thing that I can imagine happening now would be for Rossi to be unable to master control and deliver a smooth, reliable output, for this to prove intractable with his approach and it fizzles at IH. I am convinced that the demonstration of an effect is now so clear (and once the 2nd report is out, raised to a power) that if IH cannot deliver, others will (Remember the Chinese?). That, I feel, is the bottom line.

    But I do not belive this will be the case for a moment. This sounds like the typical teething you get with newly installed plant, espically when this is version 3 model #1. I mean, wow! This is perhaps 100 hot cats all in parallel in some sort of heat exchanger, with all the balancing and regulation of heat transfer that this implies. If we are hearing ‘It’s settled down, we’re just running up the days towards our 12 month target now’ message in perhaps 3-4 months from now..” I’ll be impressed.

    Folks, stand back, take stock, and realise how far we have come!

    Cheers

    Tim

    • Jonnyb

      Yeh it is always difficult when you are the first to do something. Things work well in the lab or workshop but always take many iterations to perfect the final model. I suspect the one they are working on now will be obsolete in a few years. You have to start somewhere. Once the cat is out of the bag to the mainstream you see how fast this will progress.

    • Gerrit

      Great observation Tim.

      We could however add more positive and negative things:

      C) the experiments over at quantumheat haven’t shown anything yet.
      D) the work at SKINR hasn’t produced any insights yet.
      E) many new phenomena are discovered almost daily with nanomaterials/catalysts.
      F) other commercial “cold fusion” devices seem to go through rounds of new capital and subsequent phases of new research/development, never reaching market quite yet.

      we can probably think of more…

      • timycelyn

        Nah. I agree this is a mushrooming field, and cannot even try and keep up with all the aspects of it – to be honest some of the examples you cite I only just recognise.

        Taking the points you make at face value, I agree there are a bunch more as well (eg the Nanor) lying on both sides of the ledger. However, I think this again runs the risk of getting too far into the detail, which can be baffling in its variability.

        I am standing back, and looking at the overall topography of what is going on, especially with Rossi. A lot of the detail you mention whilst no doubt true, is secondary to the basic point that there’s a real effect here, and, no matter how clumsily it happens, the truth will eventually come out. Some folk may have picked particularly stony roads to approach that truth, but positive results and evidence elsewhere reveals that it exists.

        Your last point (F) is the one that is hardest to answer and does twist my guts a little. But, as the famous saying goes: “Past results should not be taken as indicators of future performance…..”

        Cheers

        Tim

        • Gerrit

          Whatever there is, it will be understood eventually. From what I see today, either by standing back as far as I can, or getting in as close as possible, I can’t be sure that I will see the technology being utilized soon or within a certain time.

          It doesn’t exist out here, today, impacting our lives. There is still a possibility that it will never really become commercially available.

          • bachcole

            My take is the exact opposite. I see it as inevitable. Although I cannot be certain how soon it will be impacting people’s lives.

  • jousterusa

    One excellent point you make is that Rossi’s vision has already survived a number of attempts, like Defkalion’s, that might have derailed a lesser mind. I think that is quite remarkable in itself.

  • Omega Z

    I’m neither surprised or disappointed by this news. It’s totally to be expected. Ganging 100 reactors together & keeping them in sync & stable is a far cry from controlling a single reactor on a work bench.

    Thrown into a processing facility would add many new variables to boot. There’s always the wild card in these situations. Sudden unpredictable changes can occur at any time. Real World.

    It would be extremely likely that additional sensors or controls will need to be added. And additional parameters added to the computer programing in the control box.

    I once watched a team of 3 technicians spend a year working out kinks on a system somewhat similar as this. Of course they had it much easier as they were working with a multiple burner natural gas system. Not as simple as one would think. Note: this was a special purpose system.

    With a couple hundred parameters, you can change just 1 with issues & have to recalibrate most or all the others. And recalibrating means making a change and waiting, possibly hours before readjusting or moving on to the next. At any given point, this could require starting all over.

    Note that even when the task is achieved, It needs monitored for quite sometime(Months) to be sure all the issues have been addressed. Future Customers are going to want assurances of this.

    All should take 1 thing into consideration: This is a non-conventional energy source. There is nothing else you can really compare it to. I Guess, Industrial Heat could spring for the cost of the premier expert on E-cats, but– Oh, Wait

  • Omega Z

    I’m neither surprised or disappointed by this news. It’s totally to be expected. Ganging 100 reactors together & keeping them in sync & stable is a far cry from controlling a single reactor on a work bench.

    Thrown into a processing facility would add many new variables to boot. There’s always the wild card in these situations. Sudden unpredictable changes can occur at any time. Real World.

    It would be extremely likely that additional sensors or controls will need to be added. And additional parameters added to the computer programing in the control box.

    I once watched a team of 3 technicians spend a year working out kinks on a system somewhat similar as this. Of course they had it much easier as they were working with a multiple burner natural gas system. Not as simple as one would think. Note: this was a special purpose system.

    With a couple hundred parameters, you can change just 1 with issues & have to recalibrate most or all the others. And recalibrating means making a change and waiting, possibly hours before readjusting or moving on to the next. At any given point, this could require starting all over.

    Note that even when the task is achieved, It needs monitored for quite sometime(Months) to be sure all the issues have been addressed. Future Customers are going to want assurances of this.

    All should take 1 thing into consideration: This is a non-conventional energy source. There is nothing else you can really compare it to. I Guess, Industrial Heat could spring for the cost of the premier expert on E-cats, but– Oh, Wait

    • Broncobet

      See, you make such an excellent point, we have cheap natural gas in this country, we have no problem generating heat.

    • timycelyn

      Who knows? What do we know about the Tweeter?

      • Guest

        The interesting point is that this Tweeter has not raised multiple false rumors so far.

      • Timar

        I know him (smogm) from the German Telepolis forum. He wrote a lot of comments to Haiko Lietz’ articles about LENR. He always seemed very well informed but not necessarily any more than someone closely following the whole story. Most importantly, though, I don’t remember that he ever spread any unsubstantiated rumour.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Yes, he appears to be German. I came to the same result by another route. Maybe he has some well-informed friends in Sweden.

        • artefact

          definitly German and could be connected to the german technology news outlet “heise” which also owns Telepolis where Haiko Lietz wrote some nice online articles about LENR. His first upload 4 years ago on youtube was a broadcast of a tv show from heise.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        He could be identical with a person who made several posts on JoNP in autumn 2012, but under a different name. (Don’t ask me how I came to this conclusion. I can assure that I did not break any laws…) The posts do not look as if the person was an insider, at least with regard to Rossi.

    • pg

      Do you know where are the rumors coming from?

    • Heath

      Friday evening is a terrible time to break any news. Politicians like to wait until Friday to release any uncomfortable news as it’s usually swept under the weekend rug. This report deserves a mid-week release when everyone is paying attention (and happy that it is mid-week). If so, I hope it is more for those of us who have been watching this carefully and waiting 6 months for the results and especially the undeniable the evidence that it delivers as promised. Still, it’s just another rumor.

      • Heath

        Actually, now that I think about it, how better a way not to rile the stock markets. After trading hours….

        • Rossi said that he gets the report 3 – 4 days before publication. Maybe this is related to that.

          • Hetah

            Very well could be..makes perfect sense.

        • Timar

          I as well thought that Friday would be an odd day to publish the TIP. The more I think about your stock market argument, however, the more sense it makes – particularly if the TIP is to be published in a prestigeous journal. Press releases by publishers like Nature Publishing Group immediately hit the big media and a release at Friday evening would seem a responsible move.

          If the rumor and this speculation hold any merit, we should expect something either after 20 pm CEST (Central European Summer Time), when Frankfurt closes as the last European stock market, or after 22 pm when the NASDAQ closes.

          • Broncobet

            No report until Oct 5th ,my original guess many months ago.

    • Guru

      It is dirty provocation by dumb person. He/she even don’t know, that report is about Hot-Cat, not E-Cat.

      • Timar

        No it isn’t. See my post below.

        • Guru

          Cold washer – this report is not about Hot-Cat ?

          • artefact

            the hot-cat is also an e-cat. He does not write warm e-cat or something else.

          • hempenearth

            Yes, the Hot Cat was officially called E Cat HT last year

    • Veblin

      smogm ‏@smogm 17m
      Sorry when I made to much expections! But rumors are growing day by day coming from sweden. Have a look there #ecat #lenr #coldfusion
      1:24 PM – 26 Sep 2014

      • Andreas Moraitis

        He just read the post by David Nygren from April (with the photo from Uppsala) and forgot to look at the date.

  • ecatworld

    Has not made many tweets, either. Tweeted around the time of the last report:

    https://twitter.com/smogm

  • BroKeeper

    While problems persist it appears to be presently in use by the manufacturer and collecting analytical and financial differential cost data, thus consolidating information when ready.
    ____________________
    Andrea Rossi
    September
    26th, 2014 at 9:31 AM

    Pietro F.:
    Our Customer id (is) a manufacturer, and uses (present tense) the 1 MW plant
    for his production.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
    ______________________

    • Daniel Maris

      We have to remember that Rossi is writing this, but also the IH personnel are reading it as well.

      That tends to put the balance of probability on it being true.

  • Brokeeper

    While problems persist it appears to be presently in use by the manufacturer and collecting analytical and financial differential cost data, thus consolidating information when ready.
    ____________________
    Andrea Rossi
    September
    26th, 2014 at 9:31 AM

    Pietro F.:
    Our Customer id (is) a manufacturer, and uses (present tense) the 1 MW plant
    for his production.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
    ______________________

  • Private Citizen

    the moving goal posts move once more

    • Timar

      That’s a process called product development…

    • bachcole

      I am grateful that there is any water in the cup at all, and I am sure that with more work and time the cup will soon be completely full.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Yes, he appears to be German. I came to the same result by another route. Maybe he has some well-informed friends in Sweden.

  • Hank Mills

    Paul and Anyone,

    After years of following the E-Cat, I feel more emotionally and mentally vexed than ever before. There is no doubt in my mind that the technology works, but sitting and waiting while trying to obtain news from tiny specs of rumors is making me wish Rossi and the TIP would either be more open or go totally black. In the early days of the E-Cat, there were new test results, pictures, videos, and info from Rossi every other week. Now, due to the gag order Rossi gave himself by agreeing to the terms of the TIP and selling the tech to Cherokee, we are lucky to get a detailed test report once a year. The openness that used to exist is over, and I’m sure if Cherokee had their way, the JONP would be closed down.

    If anyone on here has solid information or facts about the report, publishing date, COP, temperatures reached, documents they want to share, please do so! I feel we have all been very patient enduring delays in the publishing of the report and the drought of information in general. The E-Cat is the most important discovery and news item in a very long time. Unlike a slightly more efficent solar panel, it is an invention with the potential to be THE source of cheap and clean power for the next few hundred years. Humanity deserves info on the E-Cat, just as much as if the government made contact with an ET species.

    Please post what solid info you have.

    • Paul

      Sorry Hank, but I will not post most of the infos I have and I will not give give precise infos about the publication of the report. The reason is that I am not Rossi’s or IH spokeperson. I agree with you that a serious company releases or no information at all or a complete official information, as the current situation is an absolute anomaly. I agree with another reader that the best days for releasing a news are during the week.

      • Hank Mills

        After being so open with test data for years, I feel the current “tease and torture” mentality of Rossi and Industrial Heat is absolutely unacceptable. The E-Cat, once you realize it exists, changes your perspective on the world and the future of humanity. By revealing the existance of the technology and then slamming the lid shut, they are having an enormous negative impact on interested supporters and the LENR field as a whole. I think instead of continuing to tease and interact with us, the moment Rossi signed his gag order with Cherokee and the TIP, he should have closed the JONP. Or, he should have searched for a partner who would have had a more open and sharing mentality. However, we are beyond that now.

        Our only hope for openess is if the upcoming report followed the scientific method and includes a detailed analysis of the fuel – including surface features – and instructions for replication. Then teams around the world can work on and improve the technology.

        • Mats002

          I really like this fraze of yours;
          E-Cat, once you realize it exists, changes your perspective on the world and the future of humanity

        • Paul

          This is a TPR, not instructions for replication, but this does not mean that an E-Cat cannot be replicated. The point is that you cannot read the recipe on a paper of such kind, whose function is completely different. Your view is perhaps a sort of Manhattan Project, but at a world level. A Manhattan Project also today would be a National Project and would be secret at least for some time. Behind such a project, there was a strong pressure coming from the international situation and a political choice. In this moment the situation is different with respect to those years. There is an open source Lenr project that should compete for the Nobel Prize for Peace, but you cannot think that IH could make a gift to the competitors, otherwise no one would invest in their product development.

          • kenko

            ‘ does not mean that an E-Cat cannot be replicated.’ A year or so ago, didn’t rossi say that a company, given specs for an e-cat, had replicated one/ some without rossi & co’s help?

          • Heath

            Paul is saying that the TIP report will not contain device replication information for the public, but the analysed results from a 6 month long test and the conclusions from their peers.

          • Omega Z

            Yes, A company did replicate the Hot-Cat using only Rossi’s instructions.
            That company is known as Cherokee/Industrial Heat.
            This replication of the E-cat & it’s Performance matched Rossi’s claims. They are now the Owners of this technology.

          • kenko

            Oh, THAT that company. LOL. Small world.

          • Guru

            E-Cat is IMPOSSIBLE to replicate with informations contained in Rossi patent. It is replicable by secret info passed to IH. So whole rant by Rossi about “we replicate all patents of our competitors and no success” is hypocrite pathological greed crying.
            I am not communist as Georgehantz, I not demand Rossi to free giving his IP. On other side, understand here folks except Mr. Mills exception, what level of damage to world is causing their (Rossi/IH) dark game ?
            3 to 9 billions USD per DAY lossess.

          • Omega Z

            I would guess that Rossi’s patent device works. Just not to an effective degree without the sauce. There are many others that do as well. Rossi has spoken of at least 2 he knows of on JONP.

            This is no longer about Rossi. It belongs to Industrial Heat.
            Industrial Heat is about business. This is the fastest way to introduce the technology & spread it through out the World. I have no doubt this technology will be licensed all over the world to any who have the technological & financial means to produce it.
            JUST, as soon as it’s ready.

            And with that, you have the most knowledgeable team working on it right now & access to anyone they need. Somethings just take time. There are no shortcuts.
            Competitors. Yes, there are those. Do you think IH/Rossi are setting on their laurels waiting for them to catch up?

            As to Georgehantz, Communist? No. I Think George just sees financial injustice & wants change. Evidence to this is he at times contradicts himself striking out in all directions because he has no answers. Personally, I have never seen the corrupt Capitalism or greedy Corporations he speaks of. Just corrupt greedy people you find dispersed throughout society at all levels. We’re just more aware of those in positions of power.

            “3 to 9 billion$ per DAY”. If your talking about Oil, That has been substantially reduced due to the U.S. increase in Oil & Gas production. Don’t think the UN isn’t aware of this. They’ve requested that the industrial nations add an additional $100 Billion be provided to developing & 3rd World Countries & to substantially increase it every year after. If you don’t buy from them you give it to them anyway. It’s about world wealth redistribution. I’m a teach them to fish person myself.

            But maybe you’re of the opinion that E-cats would power cars. Only by charging the batteries. Otherwise, the number of E-cats required (30+) & additional hardware & still requiring a Tesla battery, the math just doesn’t work. At $5 a gallon gas at 40mpg vehicle would be much cheaper to drive. You should keep in mind, It’s going to take decades to transition to LENR. No matter what anyone does.

          • Ted-X

            Several “proved non-replications” may lead to a dismissal of a patent. Patents by definition need to be replaceable.

          • Ted-X

            Several “proved non-replications” may lead to a dismissal of a patent. Patents by definition need to be replaceable.

          • Ted-X

            Correction: Patents MUST BE REPLICABLE.

          • Ted-X

            Correction: Patents MUST BE REPLICABLE.

          • Hank Mills

            Paul,

            There is no need for a “Miami Project” to further the development of the Rossi Effect. Right now, the technology can produce an unlimited COP and temperatures high enough to vaporize steel. The only issue is control. Cures on the Cobraf forum has said that the hot cat instantly wants to shoot up to temperatures that can melt the nickel and destroy the reactor. In regards to producing heat, you cannot get any better than this. What we need are hundreds of companies working on better control systems to keep the system stable. This is where the money is to be made, in my opinion.

            Rossi has already stated on the JONP that the testers are allowed to do whatever the want with the reactors and test them in any way they see fit. When asked, he even said that if the testers were able to replicate the device, they would be allowed to publish the instructions in the report. According to Rossi, the testers can put whatever information they want in the report. If this is the case, the testers have a duty to include the information. The scientific method works via one team replicating the results of another. If a recipe is included, I think hundreds of replications will happen and the free market will decide who has the best control system. If a recipe is not included, I don’t think the technology will be accepted as real and the LENR community will continue sitting around waiting for IH to do something.

            Classifying the E-Cat tech, once the recipe gets out, will be impossible. No country will be able to improve upon it, except for the control systems. It will proliferate rapidly because anyone with the ability to produce the powder, stuff it inside a core, and add AC will have a source of dirt cheap power. Every nation in the world will be in a race not to improve the effect, but to control and utilize it. In my opinion, once the recipe is out it will only take months for a dozen different control methods to be used that allow for very high COP and true self sustain.

            If this is a truly independent test like Rossi claims, then the world will be given the basic formula. It is no different than being given the ability to produce fire, aerodynamic lift, or electricity. The competition will be in utilizing it for countless applications.

          • Broncobet

            Your scenario is unlikely.It’s what you wrote before “continue sitting around waiting for IH to do something” That is what will happen ,so don’t be disappointed.

        • Broncobet

          Hank, let’s suppose for a minute that the ECAT has some heat associated with it but not much ,nothing useful and certainly not commercial, would you want them all to tell you that or would you rather have all the fun of being privy to a whole new technology, along with the friends you meet every day here on this blog.It’s like the Matrix you can take the red pill or the blue pill, but be careful what you wish for.

      • Hank Mills

        Paul,

        I would like to ask a few questions. If you don’t want to answer some or all of them, please just say so.

        1 – Rossi claims the hot cat can remain stable in the long term at temps of over 1000C. Did the E-Cat get tested at such high temps in the report?

        2 – Was true self sustain mode tested? By that I mean running the E-Cat at a constant or increasing temperature for a period of time with no imput power. In the last report this was not tested.

        3 – Was an analysis on the shape, size, and surface features of the particles of powder performed?

        4 – Was Prof. Ikegami involved in any way with the report?

        5 – How many scientists and engineers have signed onto the report?

        6 – Is a full or partial theory of how the device works included in the report?

    • kasom

      We are back to nowhere, another year wait for a proof, no info about any e-cat running elsewhere on the world. I know,that AC is positiv and negative and it alters 50 or 60 times a second, he,he,he,he, not funny……..
      May be it is again the gaucheness of A.R., but if it is, who the hell masters his postings??

      MY will say it is part of an “exit strategy” but this is nonsense because A.R. has never collected funding from the public.
      But: It is a Topic for the future of mankind, climate, future of developing countries.

      IH, Tom Darden is the one to ask now, who from the press has done this in between, with which response, or why not??

      • winebuff

        The thing that is really vexing is that IH still has no website or has ever acknowledged to the public this purchase. If they are so close to putting out a product wouldnt u want to shout it from the mountain top at some point be interviewed by 60 min. The thing is after the report we’ll be in the dark for a long period of time waiting for the crumbs.

        • Yes, this is one thing I don’t understand too.
          A professional looking website with the typical static corporate content (about us, our aims, our products blabla) can be done by a webdesigner in a day for 200 – 300 $. Peanuts for a company like cherokee.

          On the other hand, take look what defkalion is delivering. It’s more important to see a working plant or positive independent report than a website.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Defkalion’s website ( http://www.defkalion-energy.com/ ) no longer exists. A while ago, they had announced on a single page that they were reorganizing their R&D; later, there was a message “This account has been suspended”, and recently, the provider announced that the website is no longer on their server. (The other options can be ruled out.)

            Apparently, they have also abandoned their headquarters in Glyfada near Athens. That does not look good…

          • bachcole

            If they stole from Rossi, then it is good. If they did not steal from Rossi, then it is bad. But, looking back, I just don’t see how it is possible that they did not learn something vital from Rossi; in other words, they stole from Rossi, IMHO.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            If they have the technology, let’s say, ‘borrowed’ from Rossi, it would be worse, since in this case something might be wrong with both concepts. Especially, there could be an unknown error in the measurement of the electric input. Imagine a reactor that produces some sort of emission which would ‘deceive’ any power meter.

          • bachcole

            Or, no investors would touch it with a ten meter pole for fear of Rossi/I.H.’s lawyers.

          • Broncobet

            Or could it be that they stole all the info there was which was zero?

          • About the only straw left to grasp at is the remote possibility that a larger entity has acquired DGT’s technology, and perhaps employed some key players, and now wishes to operate in the dark. It should be remembered that Rossi too has left a trail of discarded business debris in his wake.

            In view of the apparently sluggish progress that IH is making, some competition seems essential, even when it’s origins are less than pristine white.

          • this will be the test.
            what is sure is that this group was badly managed, and they committed what cannot be forgiven.
            one hypothesis is they had nothing and prepared to surf on E-cat technology (as Rossi said)… in that case they are bankrupt and at best some lab workers can find a job.
            another hypothesis is that they have something still unusable, in that case they will be recycled, either DGT can became a division of a serious corp (like Cherokee), or the few employees who are clean and competent can be hired to launch a new project.

            I know business groups who simple have nothing else promising lab work and competent researchers and entrepreneurs. having a team of ex-crazy who have experienced some excess heat, may be valuable…

          • ronzonni

            What is Defkalion delivering?

        • Frank Acland

          Actually, they did acknowledge the purchase with a press release in January. I would like to see a web site, for sure.

      • Broncobet

        They got $10 million from somebody, evidently someone believes this stuff. I do, kinda.

    • Broncobet

      What would we do if someone with the authority said “it works” or “it doesn’t work” I mean I spend a lot of time on this site ,reading, typing, we’d need a whole new industry if this one was taken away.

  • artefact

    definitly German and could be connected to the german technology news outlet “heise” which also owns Telepolis where Haiko Lietz wrote some nice online articles about LENR. His first upload 4 years ago on youtube was a broadcast of a tv show from heise.

  • Paul

    Sorry Hank, but I will not post most of the infos I have and I will not give give precise infos about the publication of the report. The reason is that I am not Rossi’s or IH spokeperson. I agree with you that a serious company releases or no information at all or a complete official information, as the current situation is an absolute anomaly. I agree with another reader that the best days for releasing a news are during the week.

    • Hank Mills

      After being so open with test data for years, I feel the current “tease and torture” mentality of Rossi and Industrial Heat is absolutely unacceptable. The E-Cat, once you realize it exists, changes your perspective on the world and the future of humanity. By revealing the existance of the technology and then slamming the lid shut, they are having an enormous negative impact on interested supporters and the LENR field as a whole. I think instead of continuing to tease and interact with us, the moment Rossi signed his gag order with Cherokee and the TIP, he should have closed the JONP. Or, he should have searched for a partner who would have had a more open and sharing mentality. However, we are beyond that now.

      Our only hope for openess is if the upcoming report followed the scientific method and includes a detailed analysis of the fuel – including surface features – and instructions for replication. Then teams around the world can work on and improve the technology.

      • Paul

        This is a TPR, not instructions for replication, but this does not mean that an E-Cat cannot be replicated. The point is that you cannot read the recipe on a paper of such kind, whose function is completely different. Your view is perhaps a sort of Manhattan Project, but at a world level. A Manhattan Project also today would be a National Project and would be secret at least for some time. Behind such a project, there was a strong pressure coming from the international situation and a political choice. In this moment the situation is different with respect to those years. There is an open source Lenr project that should compete for the Nobel Prize for Peace, but you cannot think that IH could make a gift to the competitors, otherwise no one would invest in their product development.

        • kenko

          ‘ does not mean that an E-Cat cannot be replicated.’ A year or so ago, didn’t rossi say that a company, given specs for an e-cat, had replicated one/ some without rossi & co’s help?

          • Heath

            Paul is saying that the TIP report will not contain device replication information for the public, but the analysed results from a 6 month long test and the conclusions from their peers.

          • Omega Z

            Yes, A company did replicate the Hot-Cat using only Rossi’s instructions.
            That company is known as Cherokee/Industrial Heat.
            This replication of the E-cat & it’s Performance matched Rossi’s claims. They are now the Owners of this technology.

          • kenko

            Oh, THAT that company. LOL. Small world.

        • Hank Mills

          Paul,

          There is no need for a “Miami Project” to further the development of the Rossi Effect. Right now, the technology can produce an unlimited COP and temperatures high enough to vaporize steel. The only issue is control. Cures on the Cobraf forum has said that the hot cat instantly wants to shoot up to temperatures that can melt the nickel and destroy the reactor. In regards to producing heat, you cannot get any better than this. What we need are hundreds of companies working on better control systems to keep the system stable. This is where the money is to be made, in my opinion.

          Rossi has already stated on the JONP that the testers are allowed to do whatever the want with the reactors and test them in any way they see fit. When asked, he even said that if the testers were able to replicate the device, they would be allowed to publish the instructions in the report. According to Rossi, the testers can put whatever information they want in the report. If this is the case, the testers have a duty to include the information. The scientific method works via one team replicating the results of another. If a recipe is included, I think hundreds of replications will happen and the free market will decide who has the best control system. If a recipe is not included, I don’t think the technology will be accepted as real and the LENR community will continue sitting around waiting for IH to do something.

          Classifying the E-Cat tech, once the recipe gets out, will be impossible. No country will be able to improve upon it, except for the control systems. It will proliferate rapidly because anyone with the ability to produce the powder, stuff it inside a core, and add AC will have a source of dirt cheap power. Every nation in the world will be in a race not to improve the effect, but to control and utilize it. In my opinion, once the recipe is out it will only take months for a dozen different control methods to be used that allow for very high COP and true self sustain.

          If this is a truly independent test like Rossi claims, then the world will be given the basic formula. It is no different than being given the ability to produce fire, aerodynamic lift, or electricity. The competition will be in utilizing it for countless applications.

    • Hank Mills

      Paul,

      I would like to ask a few questions. If you don’t want to answer some or all of them, please just say so.

      1 – Rossi claims the hot cat can remain stable in the long term at temps of over 1000C. Did the E-Cat get tested at such high temps in the report?

      2 – Was true self sustain mode tested? By that I mean running the E-Cat at a constant or increasing temperature for a period of time with no imput power. In the last report this was not tested.

      3 – Was an analysis on the shape, size, and surface features of the particles of powder performed?

      4 – Was Prof. Ikegami involved in any way with the report?

      5 – How many scientists and engineers have signed onto the report?

      6 – Is a full or partial theory of how the device works included in the report?

  • artefact

    the hot-cat is also an e-cat. He does not write warm e-cat or something else.

    • hempenearth

      Yes, the Hot Cat was officially called E Cat HT last year

      • Broncobet

        They got $10 million from somebody, evidently someone believes this stuff. I do, kinda.

  • Paul Smith

    Meanwhile, Prometeon web site is out of service:

    http://prometeon.it/

    “We are working to our new website.
    Meanwhile, our e-mail services for customer care are temporarely suspended.
    We apologize for the inconvenience.
    PROMETEON SRL”

    I wonder if this fact has some connection with the imminent REPORT…

    • llsurfer

      Most likely they patched their servers against the “Shellshock” vulnerability.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I do not think you understand that the numbers are not a prophecy but a current trajectory. Where it is going now and how much damage it would do if no variables changed over a period of time. I am not concerned for myself or you. Just the people of the other half of the planet’s population. I am ignoring the abnormally high mutation rate for the moment.

  • Daniel Maris

    Can’t think why it would be…

  • winebuff

    The thing that is really vexing is that IH still has no website or has ever acknowledged to the public this purchase. If they are so close to putting out a product wouldnt u want to shout it from the mountain top at some point be interviewed by 60 min. The thing is after the report we’ll be in the dark for a long period of time waiting for the crumbs.

    • Yes, this is one thing I don’t understand as well.
      A professional looking website with the typical static corporate content (about us, our aims, our products, imprint blabla) can be done by a webdesigner in a day for 200 – 300 $.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Defkalion’s website ( http://www.defkalion-energy.com/ ) no longer exists. A while ago, they had announced on a single page that they were reorganizing their R&D; later, there was a message “This account has been suspended”, and recently, the provider announced that the website is no longer on their server. (The other options can be ruled out.)

        Apparently, they have also abandoned their headquarters in Glyfada near Athens. That does not look good…

        • Andreas Moraitis

          If they have the technology, let’s say, ‘borrowed’ from Rossi, it would be worse, since in this case something might be wrong with both concepts. Especially, there could be an unknown error in the measurement of the electric input. Imagine a reactor that produces some sort of emission which would ‘deceive’ any power meter.

        • Fortyniner

          About the only straw left to grasp at is the remote possibility that a larger entity has acquired DGT’s technology, and perhaps employed some key players, and now wishes to operate in the dark. It should be remembered that Rossi too has left a trail of discarded business debris in his wake.

          In view of the apparently sluggish progress that IH is making, some competition seems essential, even when it’s origins are less than pristine white.

          • this will be the test.
            what is sure is that this group was badly managed, and they committed what cannot be forgiven.
            one hypothesis is they had nothing and prepared to surf on E-cat technology (as Rossi said)… in that case they are bankrupt and at best some lab workers can find a job.
            another hypothesis is that they have something still unusable, in that case they will be recycled, either DGT can became a division of a serious corp (like Cherokee), or the few employees who are clean and competent can be hired to launch a new project.

            I know business groups who simple have nothing else promising lab work and competent researchers and entrepreneurs. having a team of ex-crazy who have experienced some excess heat, may be valuable…

    • ecatworld

      Actually, they did acknowledge the purchase with a press release in January. I would like to see a web site, for sure.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    IH just want to deliver a good product, and for this attitude we should be grateful to them – even if we have to wait somewhat longer. Remember the early versions of Windows? Microsoft made millions by sales, but millions of users felt very unhappy at the same time. The problem is to find the balance between the desired grade of perfection of a new product and the time of market launch. Surely, there are many unknowns in the equation, but I’m confident that Darden & colleagues know what they do.

    Regarding information policy and “open access”: As far as I remember, there has never been a successful “free” product that has been developed without the prior existence of a competing mercantile product. Linux would perhaps not exist, or only in a rudimentary form, if there had been no commercial operating systems which could be taken as an example. (The history of UNIX, the core technology of Linux, is more complex; therefore, I’m not going to refer to it here.)

    Giving away intellectual property may be an option at a certain time, but if it occurs too early it would certainly be counterproductive. Anyhow, in most cases it will happen automatically as soon as the patent rights expire.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I software, the situation might not be as obvious as I wrote, since there are fortunately a lot of useful freeware applications available, partly even together with their source code. But software is a special case, since it can be easily transported. Besides, for its development you need just a computer and an IDE. But from where do you get the computer? Hardware is a different matter, the “open source” idea cannot be simply transferred to it. Surely, it would be nice if we had one day a “Free Cat”, which would be safe and reliable, but simple enough to be built in a garage. But without the professional work of Rossi and others I strongly doubt that we would see it ever.

      • pelgrim108

        There are people doing OS Hardware http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Nice! I only wonder how they manage the costs. And one should not forget that such a project would not have been possible without the previous achievements of the ‘classical’ industry.

          • pelgrim108

            Open Source Ecology is incorporated as a nonprofit organization.They have volunteers contributing, and are funded by the Shuttleworth Foundation. The basic idea is: Modular DIY open source hardware.
            Here is a nice intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GEMkvT0DEk

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Software is indeed a special case because it’s easy to copy and transport. When I was a doctoral student in early 1990’s, I remember that I didn’t appreciate portability of software at all. I though that I just needed to program THIS computer NOW, so why bother writing portable code, also because the next computer would be completely different anyway. I don’t know if anyone else was that stupid, but if someone was, then it indicates that the idea of software portability leading to the opensource movement was not so self-evident to discover as it sounds nowadays.

        • bachcole

          Anyone with the integrity and humility to be able to call himself “stupid” is my kind of guy. (:->) My expression of stupidity came in the form of thinking that I was not capable.

      • Paul

        I think that one day your Free Cat concept could see the light, for three reasons: also not entering here in details the reactor seems extremely simple, it is hard to protect the IP of a so simple product unless you try to add a fictitious complexity, and I doubt that the most relevant patents will be granted.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Paul, is it a mystery to you (as it is to me) why the 1 MW plant is (in AR’s words) complicated if the individual reactor is simple?

          • Paul

            No, I refer to the single reactor without a sophisticated control system. I cannot be more precise regarding the second part of your question, citing the 1 MW plant, because I do not remember the words you are referring to. However, I guess he refers or to the fact that interfacing an E-Cat to an industrial plant is not so easy the first time or to the fact that a 1 MW system is more complex because it consists of many reactors and of a complex control system for the stability of the reactions.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Thanks, Paul, I’m referring to his statement September 26th, 2014 at 9:31 PM “Steven N. Karels: As you correctly say, it is impossible that an important plant does not
            have an initial period of assessment. Our plant is a very complex thing
            and we are making all the necessary work to deliver it respecting all
            the guarantees we gave to our Customer…”

          • I don’t think that the reactors themselves are likely to be particularly complex – the heat exchanger probably comprises simply a number of flanged reactor casings bolted or welded into a water tank. It’s possible that thermal stores and/or heat dumps such as fan cooled radiators may need to be included, although that would probably be a relatively simple matter to implement, mechanically. As Paul says, the complexity is likely to lie in the control system and the switching bank for the heater current.

            If the reactors have complex responses (which might even require mapping for each individual core), the control system will rely on predictive algorithms responding to demand registered at a number of sensors, and modified by programmed-in data on response curves and latency. The heater current switching may also be much more complex than simple on/off, and might involve for instance variacs with electromechanical actuators, or similar arrangements requiring a dedicated sub-controller.

            Also, the operating range of the reactors could be very narrow, and at this stage a complicated balancing act is probably needed to keep things stable in the face of demand that may vary quite suddenly. This could possibly require an actuated valve system that brings thermal storage tanks, heatsinks, recirculation loops etc. on line as required. I suspect that the whole thing is probably a bit of an engineering nightmare in practice, as each variable control output is likely to have ramifications throughout the system.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Apparently, they already have a system that is able to handle a sudden drop in heat demand:

            Q: What would happen if the customer were forced to stop his production suddenly by some reason, so that the 1 MW plant would have to go in idle mode, without prior warning? Is there already a solution for such a scenario?

            AR: Of course. Also is provided a solution in case of malfunction of the 1 MW plant, by means of a back up made using the traditional energy source.

            It would be interesting to know how they exactly withdraw surplus heat. As you say, they might use tanks or external heat sinks. Perhaps they could use even tap water if there is a sufficient flow rate, but the possibility of a breakdown of water supply would imply an additional risk. 1 MW is a lot of power, and I expect the equipment for emergency cooling to be quite big, perhaps bigger than the plant itself.

  • Fortyniner

    At this point it would be very easy to suppress public knowledge of LENR simply by interfering with the internet – something that is within the purview of the alphabet agencies that serve the interests of TPTB. If a few IPs were to be blocked on ‘national security’ grounds, and the search engines subsequently removed all references to the sites concerned, and to associated search terms, the job could be done overnight.

    The fact that it hasn’t, leads me to believe that LENR is to be ‘permitted’ to develop this time around, so long as it is under the control of those whose interests would otherwise be threatened.

    • don’t worry, there are big big corps with defence division, who know LENR exist and want to fund it, develop it…
      beside Toyota, Mitsubishi, Boeing, NI, China/Tianjin…

      today I could relaunch most of what have been done since 25years in 3 years provided someone give me a billion and a good boss. (knowing where to search is enough, a kid of 15 with memory could inspire a corp boss)

  • Paul

    Today the Italian Nevanlinna has made a sort of scoop, indeeed note the date of 25 Sept and also the following comment by Franco: https://translate.google.it/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cobraf.com%2Fforum%2Ftopic.php%3Ftopic_id%3D5747&edit-text=

    • Daniel Maris

      I think I need a translation of the translation!…what does it all mean? Someone is modifying a patent application on the basis of the successful recent tests? But I can’t make out if it is Rossi’s patent application and what does Rossi v. Piantelli and Rossi mean?

      Can you explain???

      This does indeed look important…maybe justifying its own update, Frank?

      • Paul

        You should remember the previous story. The request of international patent for the E-Cat had been refused in first istance, so Rossi had a period of time for making something against the written motivations behind the refusal, among which there was the fact that some reactions cited in the patent are not occurring if the particle are not strongly accelerated, and so on. So in the document found by Nevanlinna on the patent database, and dated Sept 25, 2014, Rossi’s patent lawyer cites the “results of tests” which “will be available within two months” because they are “pertinent”. Franco, in his comment, observes that the fact the results of these tests are invoked implies that Rossi knows such results and that they are positive, not negative. But this is exactly the opposite of what Rossi has said until a few hours ago. So, everyone is free of making his own idea of how much “third party” should be considered the report.

        • deleo77

          At the least I think it is safe to say that Rossi assumes the report will be released within the next two months, and he assumes that it will be positive, and he would like to use the results of the report as justification for being granted a patent.

          Maybe I am reading too much into Rossi’s comment yesterday, but I do detect a slight shift in tone. Take out the words “I suppose” and you can see that he may start to have some indications about the test results. I’m not sure if Rossi has seen the actual report yet, but I would be willing to bet at this point that the results have been whispered to him by someone close to it.

          Koen Vandewalle:
          The report, I suppose, will define exactly the protocol of the test. I am not allowed to give any related information before the publication.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.

          • Omega Z

            Which month will be most likely the publication month:
            1- September 2014
            2- October 2014
            3- November 2014
            4- December 2014
            JCRenoir
            ———————————–
            Andrea Rossi . . .September 17th, 2014 at 9:39 AM
            JCRenoir:
            October 2014, I think, but I could be wrong.
            Warm Regards, A.R.

        • Fortyniner

          The idea that Rossi has been kept in the dark about the TIP test results has always been a fiction designed to emphasise the independence of the testers. However what he has said or implied about not having any part in the tests themselves I’m sure is 100% correct.

          If the primary report is to be published soon, then it is reasonable to expect that IH will bang in a rash of patent applications on the back of this. I wonder whether they may have anything else planned for the occasion, as clearly the pilot plant is not ready to feature in any disclosure process. Probably not, I suppose – they seem to be content to move forward one tiny step at a time.

          • Paul

            Good way to emphasize the independence! LOL

          • Ophelia Rump

            Fuel is fuel, It’s duration of use depends upon the starting amount and the rate of use. It sounds like they went with a heavier charge and a lower burn rate. It is nice to see that they have mastered that level of control over the reaction.

          • Nicholas Chandler-Yates

            indeed, honestly the duration between refuelling matters far more than the amount of fuel used, as the price of nickel is practically nothing in the context of the reaction and the amount of energy it produces.
            Logistics of refuelling become the only important factor.

          • Mats002

            Well. With a COP of about 10 (my raw conclusion from rumors around) do not forget 10% energy input. 1 MW out cost 100 KW in + fuel.

          • Omega Z

            Yes, but if you need energy to produce your product, which would you prefer to be billed for.
            100Kwh or 1Mwh
            Note, That’s for each and every hour 24/7/365.

          • clovis ray

            welcome, and stay tuned in, there is lots of good info here, to mold your thoughts into your dreams.

          • Eyedoc

            From all we have learned lately (or I think we’ve learned ) , the duration may depend more on the electrical/magnetic fields proper control of internal conditions more than any ‘fuel’ levels. Very intriguing at the least 🙂

          • Matt Sevrens

            The timing of these comments seems suspicious. Right after the patent rejection? Why?

          • Nigel Appleton

            I think that an important element of the control of the reaction is control of the heat transfer rate. The many metering pumps we saw in the IMW plant photos (looked like 1 per reactor, and not particularly high flow rate items) aren’t there for fun, and it looked as if they were connected up for control by feedback of ?temperature data and/or ? pressure data

          • Pekka Janhunen

            It’s also making a virtue out of necessity: before the journal has accepted the paper for printing, the process is incomplete and in principle no one knows for sure what exactly the published version will say. Only after acceptance Rossi knows what exactly will be published, and the time from acceptance to publishing might be rather short in this case, considering the importance of the paper.

          • if it depend on any one of theose who settle the consensus against cold fusion, no paper will pass whatever it is…

            in that situation they will bet their life and kill their mother to reject it.

            the boss of Enron never sold his equities and get to jail for having committed fraud and fired controllers to hide his bankruptcy. that is structural to groupthink. they can take unimaginable risk to defend their myth, not only committing crimes but also suicide.

            http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Patterns%20of%20Denial%204l%20fin.pdf

            only option is to publish where it does not depend on any groupthinked people.

          • Ophelia Rump

            The E=Cat would make a fantastic device for De-Icing Highways and clearing snow in snowy climates.

          • pg

            That HAS to be the most important application for it!!!

          • US_Citizen71

            Or better yet as snow melters. In large cities that get deep long lasting snow falls it can quickly become an issue of where to put the plowed snow. Several northern cities have large movable melters that they drop the snow in and then feed the melt into local rivers or sewer systems. Currently they use carbon based fuels to heat them. Here in Denver we had to borrow a few from Chicago one year due to a very cold wet winter. A diesel generator powering several Ecats could likely do the job more economically and without burning as much fuel. You might even be able to make the melters more compact with a larger melting capacity using the Ecats. There is always a need and an use for cheap heat.

          • Omega Z

            You know, If you piped in all the hot air from DC, you cold melt Glaciers in short order.
            Of course that would put an end to the ski resorts.
            Bad Idea, Forget I said anything.

          • Broncobet

            Or what about they boil a kettle of tea, and then do it again an hour later??What do you think is easier, boiling water or a hover craft?

          • melting snow an ice is not the best solution, as when re icing things get worse, and heat used is huge.

            my best vision is google-car-snow-cleaner for the street and the pavement.

          • Omega Z

            How about hover vehicles & both snow & Ice are not a problem..

          • possible, however I suspect that walk will be a solution for the future, even if some technology will help. (the Lindy effect).

          • Omega Z

            If Rossi admitted to having any idea when the report would be published, He would spend all his time spamming requests about When, When, When will it be published.
            I’m under NDA, I do not know was his only choice even if he new.

        • Daniel Maris

          Thanks Paul, that’s very clear.

          Of course, it might imply he knows the publication date for the results, and possibly has heard something of what the results say, and thus is confident – rather than certain – they will be positive.

          • Paul

            Later, Nevanlinna has posted this link https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP09806118&lng=en&tab=doclist, showing a real patent war between Francesco Piantelli and Rossi, represented respectively in the documents by Silvia Piantelli and EFA. You can find there documents also ten of pages long and a wide scientific literature. So, I think that the main reason for performing a TPR was obtaining the patent, but it seems a battle very hard to win, also because the patent does not contain the catalyzer, which is essential for reproducing the invention.

          • deleo77

            My guess is if IH can pull off the patent with the TIP results as justification then you will see the veil lifted off of IH (website, product demo…). The lack of a patent is keeping them in stealth mode.

            I will go out on a limb and predict that we are going to see the TIP within the next two or three weeks and it will show a COP of 6 running for 6 months. The skeps will find holes in the setup (there is always something) and it will come down to IH’s high priced Manhattan attorneys convincing the patent office that the test was the real deal. What happens there will determine when outsiders get on the factory floor to see the plant.

          • Omega Z

            Recently when asked, Rossi said possibly October with the caveat, I could be wrong. I would be inclined to think he has been given a tentative time frame with it’s own caveat. No guarantee. It’s getting close…

          • Fortyniner

            Nice idea, but Rossi’s comments make it clear that the pilot plant has been installed alongside an existing (gas?) boiler which supplies simple process heat, i.e., hot water or LP steam.

          • Daniel Maris

            I would suggest food processing is a likely first use – where they use a lot of hot but not superhot water.

          • JDM

            Perhaps a crystallizer for salts?

  • Paul

    Today the Italian Nevanlinna has made a sort of scoop, indeeed note the date of 25 Sept and also the following comment by Franco: https://translate.google.it/translate?sl=it&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cobraf.com%2Fforum%2Ftopic.php%3Ftopic_id%3D5747&edit-text=

  • bob-v

    Did You really belief all the contradictiv statements from A.R. about who are the testers, Levy or not, not the same as before, again the same as before, 274 continents/countries/universities?

    Of course it is a patent war and what we see from the documents on cobraf shows what happens behind the curtains.

    A.R. has admitted on JONP to have attended the last test for about 30% of the time i.e. several months!

    “I have attended now and again, maybe 30% of the time od the test.”

    So it is very clear, that every statement about “independance” and “I don’t know anything” was to be taken with a grain of salt, which in Italy is in fact a socially accepted and usual lie.

    read here:

    Ecco Liberation

    April 13th, 2014 at 5:52 PM

    Dr. Andrea Rossi,

    Did the team of professors involved with the third party testing compare
    the E-Cat’s thermal output with an equivalent blank/inert/dummy load?
    E.L.

    Andrea Rossi

    April 13th, 2014 at 7:53 PM

    Ecco Liberation:

    I do not know, if yes we will see in the report. I have attended now and again, maybe 30% of the time od the test.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    It is always a miracle for me, how quick you guys can forget, I’m 60 of age and in fear to come close to that grade of alsheimer….

    • Guru

      When I wrote on JoNP that stupido lies are something cultural difference where in Italy it is romantic folklore and in Sweden it is considered close to crime, I was immediatelly banned on JoNP

      • Broncobet

        That is funny,people are so sensitive.Of course ,not that it makes any difference, but of course we know you’re 100% right.

    • Freethinker

      Mr bob-v,

      We don’t forget, but unlike yourself most of us do not read into every detail of what AR says in the JONP comments as the god given truth of what AR intends to do or mean – and so in malice. You rip out one comment and cry WOLF.

      I am sorry bob-v, but you need to face the fact that whatever the report will cover it will be more independent, more detailed, more thorough, covering a substantial time, reviewed by more people, for the report to fly. We know that. IH know that. AR know that. The guys testing his device and writing up the paper/report know that.

      It seems as though you are the only one that do not know that.

      Or do you possible have irrefutable FACTS that show beyond any doubt that AR has attended – as in partaking in – the tests? If so, what has his attendance entailed? Has he had any opportunity to manipulate the testing set up? Do so unseen and unsupervised? Really?

      Do note that Frank did follow up on that :

      Frank Acland
      April 13th, 2014 at 9:10 PM
      Dear Andrea,
      You mention attending the testing for about 30 per cent of its duration. What has been your role as you have been there?
      Many thanks,
      Frank Acland

      Andrea Rossi
      April 13th, 2014 at 10:40 PM
      Frank Acland:
      No role in the measurements, just check that the E-Cat was working
      properly, checking the control system, looking at the surface, to be
      sure no cracks emerged, things like these.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      If you do have irrefutable FACTS that show beyond any doubt that AR has been involved in some malicious activity tampering with the tests, then please share, as it would be quite some news.

      Or, perhaps just wait until the actual report is published, like the rest of us, before accusing people of things you clearly have no knowledge about.

      Meanwhile you can, to sooth your worries that this is all a mistake, read the previous test report made by distinguished scientists – they are distinguished by merit of their experiences and achievements in science, regardless of your personal opinion of them – last year, http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913.

      • bob-v

        @Freethinker:

        I don’t question that the Hot-Cat is real and that the test is positive.

        Plese do not put words into my mouth, which I never have said!

        It is simply that no one with a brain could ever believe, that A.R. had no knowlege, no contact, no feedback, no status information, no clue at all over these whole last year of testing.

        Of course he has to follow a corporate guideline since he handed his project over to Tom Darden. Nevertheless there is an IP confict between A.R. and Piantelli ongoing.

        • Omega Z

          bob
          Most of us here are well aware of your points. Or at least should be unless new to the blog.
          As to the IP conflict between A.R. and Piantelli, This is also known.

          I would also point out that in Piantelli’s patent application, It appears he designated a large portion of the Element Table. The appearance of which is like, throw enough at it & maybe something will stick.
          To Our knowledge, Piantelli doesn’t have a device of significance.
          Rossi apparently does.

          Note that I have NO issue’s with Piantelli. This is just a patent fight.
          I’m aware of Piantelli’s efforts as well as many others. One could say Rossi is working on the shoulders of others. True. Same could be said for most all the players in the field.

          Pons & Fleischmann likely the biggest influence for all the known players today. But Note that Pons & Fleischmann were actually influenced by a few others before them spread over decades. Notable evidences discarded in the past. Pons & Fleischmann are notable primarily for the results they achieved. Regardless of what the imbeciles that destroyed them say.

          • Broncobet

            If imbeciles could destroy them with a few words imagine what an intelligent scientist could do.

    • bachcole

      Dear Mr. bob-v,

      Yesterday I told my wife that I was going to do the laundry. Since she works long hours for money and I am retired, I do most of the house work. I forgot to do the laundry and had to do it this morning. I know that this will come as a surprise to you, but my wife did NOT divorce me for not keeping my promise to do the laundry yesterday. You will also be pleased to know that she did not shoot me. She has on occasion rolled her eyes at me for these broken promises, but I managed to dodge that bullet this morning.

      signed,

      Roger Bird, aka bachcole

      • Broncobet

        Lucky man.

      • Omega Z

        Yes, Lucky man. But she wont forget, THEY NEVER FORGET. he he he he he ha ha.

    • Omega Z

      bob- We are well aware.
      Rossi’s occasional presence does not negate the independence of the 3rd party test. All testing is being done offsite with Electricity provided by the independent test personnel using their instruments. The entire test was under 24/7 video surveillance & computer monitoring.

      I do find it interesting that naysayers are looking for any little thing to confront the test with. Apparently there lies a fear of it being confirmative of the Rossi effect.

      I also find it interesting that they spend so much time focused on Rossi.
      MEMO: Industrial Heat bought all Right’s(100%) of Andrea Rossi’s E-cat technology. This technology is already being disseminated to other Entities. China connection already public. Others to be revealed in time.

      Rossi is merely the Chief Scientist of the project working with at least a dozen other experts in their field. Noted also that a few outside experts(At least 1 physicist) have been brought in for consultations. Rossi has stated that he is no longer irreplaceable. Just another employee. Interesting after about 1.5 years of full control of E-cats & building them there is no mention that it does not work. Game Over.

      Guess this makes Industrial Heat & Tom Darden the new boogeyman.

  • Freethinker

    Mr bob-v,

    We don’t forget, but unlike yourself most of us do not read into every detail of what AR says in the JONP comments as the god given truth of what AR intends to do or mean – and so in malice. You rip out one comment and cry WOLF.

    I am sorry bob-v, but you need to face the fact that whatever the report will cover it will be more independent, more detailed, more thorough, covering a substantial time, reviewed by more people, for the report to fly. We know that. IH know that. AR know that. The guys testing his device and writing up the paper/report know that.

    It seems as though you are the only one that do not know that.

    Or do you possible have irrefutable FACTS that show beyond any doubt that AR has attended – as in partaking in – the tests? If so, what has his attendance entailed? Has he had any opportunity to manipulate the testing set up? Do so unseen and unsupervised? Really?

    Do note that Frank did follow up on that :

    Frank Acland
    April 13th, 2014 at 9:10 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    You mention attending the testing for about 30 per cent of its duration. What has been your role as you have been there?
    Many thanks,
    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    April 13th, 2014 at 10:40 PM
    Frank Acland:
    No role in the measurements, just check that the E-Cat was working
    properly, checking the control system, looking at the surface, to be
    sure no cracks emerged, things like these.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    If you do have irrefutable FACTS that show beyond any doubt that AR has been involved in some malicious activity tampering with the tests, then please share, as it would be quite some news.

    Or, perhaps just wait until the actual report is published, like the rest of us, before accusing people of things you clearly have no knowledge about.

    Meanwhile you can, to sooth your worries that this is all a mistake, read the previous test report made by distinguished scientists – they are distinguished by merit of their experiences and achievements in science, regardless of your personal opinion of them – last year, http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913.

  • Omega Z

    bob- We are well aware.
    Rossi’s occasional presence does not negate the independence of the 3rd party test. All testing is being done offsite with Electricity provided by the independent test personnel using their instruments. The entire test was under 24/7 video surveillance & computer monitoring.

    I do find it interesting that naysayers are looking for any little thing to confront the test with. Apparently there lies a fear of it being confirmative of the Rossi effect.

    I also find it interesting that they spend so much time focused on Rossi.
    MEMO: Industrial Heat bought all Right’s(100%) of Andrea Rossi’s E-cat technology. This technology is already being disseminated to other Entities. China connection already public. Others to be revealed in time.

    Rossi is merely the Chief Scientist of the project working with at least a dozen other experts in their field. Noted also that a few outside experts(At least 1 physicist) have been brought in for consultations. Rossi has stated that he is no longer irreplaceable. Just another employee. Interesting after about 1.5 years of full control of E-cats & building them there is no mention that it does not work. Game Over.

    Guess this makes Industrial Heat & Tom Darden the new boogeyman.

    • Daniel Maris

      This is a key factor of course: “All testing is being done offsite with Electricity provided by the independent test personnel using their instruments. ”

      Can you recall where you got that from – I don’t recall that myself.

      • Omega Z

        My 2 cents.
        The word “Clearance” would be those cleared by IH/Rossi & associates as in people they trust to maintain a NDA and also not run off & start developing their own LENR project.

  • Broncobet

    Lucky man.

  • Broncobet

    What would we do if someone with the authority said “it works” or “it doesn’t work” I mean I spend a lot of time on this site ,reading, typing, we’d need a whole new industry if this one was taken away.

  • Omega Z

    bob
    Most of us here are well aware of your points. Or at least should be unless new to the blog.
    As to the IP conflict between A.R. and Piantelli, This is also known.

    I would also point out that in Piantelli’s patent application, It appears he designated a large portion of the Element Table. The appearance of which is like, throw enough at it & maybe something will stick.
    To Our knowledge, Piantelli doesn’t have a device of significance.
    Rossi apparently does.

    Note that I have NO issue’s with Piantelli. This is just a patent fight.
    I’m aware of Piantelli’s efforts as well as many others. One could say Rossi is working on the shoulders of others. True. Same could be said for most all the players in the field.

    Pons & Fleischmann likely the biggest influence for all the known players today. But Note that Pons & Fleischmann were actually influenced by a few others before them spread over decades. Notable evidences discarded in the past. Pons & Fleischmann are notable primarily for the results they achieved. Regardless of what the imbeciles that destroyed them say.

    • Omega Z

      I would guess that Rossi’s patent device works. Just not to an effective degree without the sauce. There are many others that do as well. Rossi has spoken of at least 2 he knows of on JONP.

      This is no longer about Rossi. It belongs to Industrial Heat.
      Industrial Heat is about business. This is the fastest way to introduce the technology & spread it through out the World. I have no doubt this technology will be licensed all over the world to any who have the technological & financial means to produce it.
      JUST, as soon as it’s ready.

      And with that, you have the most knowledgeable team working on it right now & access to anyone they need. Somethings just take time. There are no shortcuts.
      Competitors. Yes, there are those. Do you think IH/Rossi are setting on their laurels waiting for them to catch up?

      As to Georgehantz, Communist? No. I Think George just sees financial injustice & wants change. Evidence to this is he at times contradicts himself striking out in all directions because he has no answers. Personally, I have never seen the corrupt Capitalism or greedy Corporations he speaks of. Just corrupt greedy people you find dispersed throughout society at all levels. We’re just more aware of those in positions of power.

      “3 to 9 billion$ per DAY”. If your talking about Oil, That has been substantially reduced due to the U.S. increase in Oil & Gas production. Don’t think the UN isn’t aware of this. They’ve requested that the industrial nations add an additional $100 Billion be provided to developing & 3rd World Countries & to substantially increase it every year after. If you don’t buy from them you give it to them anyway. It’s about world wealth redistribution. I’m a teach them to fish person myself.

      But maybe you’re of the opinion that E-cats would power cars. Only by charging the batteries. Otherwise, the number of E-cats required (30+) & additional hardware & still requiring a Tesla battery, the math just doesn’t work. At $5 a gallon gas at 40mpg vehicle would be much cheaper to drive. You should keep in mind, It’s going to take decades to transition to LENR. No matter what anyone does.

    • Broncobet

      If imbeciles could destroy them with a few words imagine what an intelligent scientist could do.

      • Obvious

        It seems to me to be the right word, considering the secretive nature of the device’s operation controls, and the fact that it is in a industrial situation, with it’s own levels of proprietary (production methods? etc) secrets.

        • pg

          For sure he likes to play with his audience…

          • Fortyniner

            Or perhaps the situation simply changes from day to day – just as it does for most engineering R&D.

          • Broncobet

            No, pg has insight.

  • monty

    Yesterday i was thinking about the customer of Rossis first factory plant. What would be a good area to show the people of the world what this new technology can do? Of course it could be an area where there is a lot of energy needed like making aluminium or the haber process for the synthesis of nitrogen. Or it could be some every day use like the heating for a factory building or making hot water for a public swimming pool. Would all be reasonable choices for showing the public his reactors actually work. But it lacks the ooomph, the catch, the impact needed for the people to wake up. And since he has some big guns supporting his case now who understand how the media works i think they could be up for something a bit more provoking. “So what could be a good example for showing the potential of this new technology” I was asking myself. And came up with this: What if the costumer of rossi is producing gasoline made of air carbon dioxide? The process is already well known and was used for example in ww2 by the germans. And like they say in this article http://www.energydigital.com/greentech/1901/CO2-to-Fuel:-Creating-Gasoline-Without-Crude-Oil it got enhanced as well.
    So what better way to show the public the end of crude oil as by making gasoline out of carbon dioxide u get for free out of the atmosphere and selling it for lets say half the price u would pay at ur local gas station? Maybe there is somebody reading ecw who knows how much the liter or galone of gasoline from this process (i think is called the Fischer–Tropsch process) costs right now and how much it would be if the 10MW reactor is used for providing the energy necessary. I think it would be quite a PR stunt, the media would love it and everybody would understand instantly how important the whole e-cat/LENR thing is. What do u guys think?

    • Nice idea, but Rossi’s comments make it clear that the pilot plant has been installed alongside an existing (gas?) boiler which supplies simple process heat, i.e., hot water or LP steam.

    • Ophelia Rump

      That’s great! Very creative thinking. I do not like the pollution potential, but you could actually use it to pump petro back into the earth for sequestration That would be a hoot.

    • Joseph j

      I know Rossi lives in FL but, if Rossi here meant that he also works in
      FL, the customer might be a desalination business? Poseidon?

      Andrea Rossi
      October 1st, 2014 at 7:48 PM
      Andre Blum:
      I am always in the USA, mainly in North Carolina and in Florida, focused on my work for Industrial Heat and IH’s Customer.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

  • Ophelia Rump

    The E=Cat would make a fantastic device for De-Icing Highways and clearing snow in snowy climates.

    • pg

      That HAS to be the most important application for it!!!

    • US_Citizen71

      Or better yet as snow melters. In large cities that get deep long lasting snow falls it can quickly become an issue of where to put the plowed snow. Several northern cities have large movable melters that they drop the snow in and then feed the melt into local rivers or sewer systems. Currently they use carbon based fuels to heat them. Here in Denver we had to borrow a few from Chicago one year due to a very cold wet winter. A diesel generator powering several Ecats could likely do the job more economically and without burning as much fuel. You might even be able to make the melters more compact with a larger melting capacity using the Ecats. There is always a need and an use for cheap heat.

      • Omega Z

        You know, If you piped in all the hot air from DC, you cold melt Glaciers in short order.
        Of course that would put an end to the ski resorts.
        Bad Idea, Forget I said anything.

      • Broncobet

        Or what about they boil a kettle of tea, and then do it again an hour later??What do you think is easier, boiling water or a hover craft?

    • melting snow an ice is not the best solution, as when re icing things get worse, and heat used is huge.

      my best vision is google-car-snow-cleaner for the street and the pavement.

      • Omega Z

        How about hover vehicles & both snow & Ice are not a problem..

        • possible, however I suspect that walk will be a solution for the future, even if some technology will help. (the Lindy effect).

  • Gerrit

    When the report is negative, but Rossi would continue to improve the ecat. It would basically become an invest-research-invest-research-ad-inf never ending story.

    • Ophelia Rump

      We all know it is beyond that stage now. It is best to demonstrate the product as practical. They could sell the individual working reactors as parts for other products or just license the technology, and they would be better off doing so eventually, but at the beginning, it is better to demonstrate the new reality first.

      If they started by selling as reactors for manufacturing purposes, it would take a longer to generate interest. It would take time for customers to integrate the technology and retool.

    • Daniel Maris

      I will be very, very surprised if the report is negative. None of the indications so far suggest it will be.

      As to how the pilot installation is going, I would suggest we know hardly anything about that yet.

      • Freethinker

        The scenario Gerrit is pointing out is a most unwelcome one, I am sure.

        And I agree that the report will come as positive, one way or another. There is ofcourse the question about the mercantile qualities of the current design, how well it performs etc. We now nothing of that and what the pilot is made of and what is its intended use.

        The bummer would be if the report is CONCEIVED as being NOT ENOUGH POSITIVE, whilst AR having serious problems with the pilot. This would discourage investors, not opening the door to the public, and be a major pain in the aft compartment for AR. This is a possible scenario and similar to what Gerrit allude to, even though the test report is positive in a general sense – as in, there is an effect.

        But people: He has got the goods. It has already been proven. It is a matter of R&D. Product development. In the end he will get there. If Darden, McDonough et.al. are in this for the duration, they will stick to AR and IH will persevere.

    • winebuff

      The big question I have will rossi ever see the ecat running in a factory looped with other ecats known to the world and get his just due? He will be an historic figure hope this moves quickly enough for him to see it.

  • Gerrit

    When the report is negative, but Rossi would continue to improve the ecat. It would basically become an invest-research-invest-research-ad-inf never ending story.

    • Ophelia Rump

      We all know it is beyond that stage now. It is best to demonstrate the product as practical. They could sell the individual working reactors as parts for other products or just license the technology, and they would be better off doing so eventually, but at the beginning, it is better to demonstrate the new reality first.

      If they started by selling as reactors for manufacturing purposes, it would take a longer to generate interest. It would take time for customers to integrate the technology and retool.

    • winebuff

      The big question I have will rossi ever see the ecat running in a factory looped with other ecats known to the world and get his just due? He will be an historic figure hope this moves quickly enough for him to see it.

    • bachcole

      The May 2013 test has already proven that your comment is pointless.

  • Enrique Ferreyra

    Control Systems are a very complex thing, even for well know science.

    • Broncobet

      Yes ,complex like flipping a light switch or turning up the gas,even increasing the flux in a nuclear reactor, all pretty simple.But for the Ecat yes they will never figure that out.

  • Enrique Ferreyra

    Control Systems are a very complex thing, even for well know science.

    • Broncobet

      Yes ,complex like flipping a light switch or turning up the gas,even increasing the flux in a nuclear reactor, all pretty simple.But for the Ecat yes they will never figure that out.

  • adriano

    I don’t understand why nobody consider the fact that the report coul be negative. If it will be positive many people around the world will start to invest in lenr, and that is what everyone think is going to happen. But the real question is: what happen if it will be negative? (sorry for the grammar)

    • winebuff

      The only negative would be the lack of a high enough cop for industrial use

      • right.
        it would be negative for rossi, but not for the current and potential competitors.
        as if usain Bolt was sick at Olympic games.

        • Fortyniner

          The difference is that CF doesn’t yet have such a ‘track record’, and there is no doubt that a low COP would be a setback for CF technology. Even so, any statistically significant COP in excess of 1 would show yet again that there is energy to be harvested, and new science to be pursued. A high COP however will be the starting gun for a hidden rush to grab a piece of this tech, on the part of both developers and corporations.

    • Ophelia Rump

      The last report was proof of concept enough to satisfy the testers. This report is a hardcore evaluation, enough to publish the launch of new science, against the stream of conventional wisdom.

    • Broncobet

      Thank you Adriano, you and I are like a voice crying out in the wilderness but like Pandora, even though we see the future, the public(readers of this blog) will never believe us. If the report is negative, at least we will know that Andrea Rossi is a very honest man, I don’t think he’s THAT honest ,and the report will be positive, but what will that mean? Very little. No hint of a theory,not published in place of any repute, no peer review, and definitly, no way for others to reproduce it. A tour of the working ecat will always be six months in the future.

      • C. Kirk

        So in other words you are saying if the report is positive it shows that Rossi has duped the scientists again or they’re incompetant or just part of the scam? Oh, please…. I suggest you reread Frank’s Why I believe in the E-Cat at the top of the page…..

        • please don’t ridicule that (broken) logic, it is published by top DoE adiviser Huizenga:

          “Furthermore, if the claimed excess heat exceeds that possible by other conventional processes (chemical, mechanical, etc.), one must conclude that an error has been made in measuring the excess heat.”

          – Huizenga

          http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/293wikipedia.html

          Huizenga, J.R., Cold Fusion: The Scientific Fiasco of the Century. second ed. 1993, New York: Oxford University Press.

    • bachcole

      I don’t consider that the report will be negative for so many reasons that I just hope to get a few of them down. If by “negative” you mean not yet commerce ready, then that might happen. If by “negative” you mean no excess heat, the first test already proved that there was plenty of excess heat. Also, the test and the report preparation phase is continuing, so it must be positive is some sense. Rossi is excited, so it is probably positive in the commerce ready sense.

      • Ophelia Rump

        It is certainly interesting that they have refit the customer installation with upgrade Cats.
        I presume that they have done this without shutting down, a rolling reactor replacement is quite an accomplishment.

        • BroKeeper

          And to test individual prototypes with an industrial load. Smart.

        • Ronzonni

          Yes. Especially with the very complex control system Rossi talked about. Does that have to be reprogrammed after every new upgrade?

          • Omega Z

            Each reactor has it’s own individual computer control module under a Master CPU. So that would not be much of a problem. There’s also extra reactor modules that can be put in operation while 1 is taken off line.

          • Fortyniner

            Upgrading the control system would be a relatively trivial task if each PLC carries identical program data, but not if each one has to be matched to its reactor by entering reactor-specific values.

        • William D Fleming

          It might not be all that hard if the cells were designed for easy replacement. Smaller pressure chambers make a lot of sense. I suppose the new smaller ones must have the same sensors and heating coils as the old so that reprogramming is probably minimal. Sounds like the system can run indefinitely just by changing out the cells. Just speculating of course. I wonder if I drove up there they’d let me see the thing. How about it Signor Rossi?

        • LilyLover

          I’m sure: Self maintaining machines of the “Forbidden Planet” is Rossi’s inspiration and goal and I have enough faith that he’ll succeed 99.99% in doing that. Simply wish that others don’t get ourselves extinct before then.

          • Bernie777

            Is it possible the “customer” plant is using the E-Cat to produce Hydrogen via steam reforming?

          • Omega Z

            Steve, The 1Mw plant you speak of is the one purchased by NRL. Different Government agencies (DOD, DOE, NRL DARPA) purchase things of this nature & test/explore them. Likely you will never here again about the 1Mw plant or any number of other devices they investigate from them. Note DARPA has funded SRI/Mckubre test several of these devices.

            For the most part, You throw a few details together & twist it to promote confusion. Things such as Rossi’s past then omit that he was cleared of any serious charges. You omit that Rossi’s technology that deals with the Petrodragon Is used by many organizations today under the label of Depolymerization.

            But regardless what you say or post, it will have “No Effect” on things in progress. The wheels have been set in motion. You say you are not a troll. To the contrary, you are the worst kind of troll. A sort of person who have no self esteem & have to tear down others to give themselves self worth. Have you pulled the wings off of any flies lately.

            You “have digged into it”. I understand misspellings & the misuse of words such as your/you’re, but if you’re going to highlight something in brackets, you should put more effort into using the proper word/form.

            As in some of your previous posts, You indicate you’re moving on. We’re still waiting & hoping. You won’t be missed. Tho likely we will see another of your posts & maybe under a different handle.

            NOTE: Maybe you are of the impression that this is a simple technology. You should know that there are papers published on LENR-Low Energy Nuclear Reactions as far back at least to 1962. If it were simple, it would already be in use.

  • adriano

    I don’t understand why nobody consider the fact that the report coul be negative. If it will be positive many people around the world will start to invest in lenr, and that is what everyone think is going to happen. But the real question is: what happen if it will be negative? (sorry for the grammar)

    • winebuff

      The only negative would be the lack of a high enough cop for industrial use

      • right.
        it would be negative for rossi, but not for the current and potential competitors.
        as if usain Bolt was sick at Olympic games.

        • The difference is that CF doesn’t yet have Bolt’s track record, and there is no doubt that a low COP would be a setback for CF technology. Even so, any statistically significant COP in excess of 1 would show yet again that there is energy to be harvested, and new science to be pursued. A high COP however will mark the start of a largely hidden stampede to grab a piece of the action, on the part of both developers and corporations.

          • GreenWin

            “Hidden stampede…?” Your namesake suggests it may not be very well hidden: http://bit.ly/1xKogZw

          • LOL! $100k in 1949 money would probably be enough to buy an e-cat now..

    • Ophelia Rump

      The last report was proof of concept enough to satisfy the testers. This report is a hardcore evaluation, enough to publish the launch of new science, against the stream of conventional wisdom.

    • Broncobet

      Thank you Adriano, you and I are like a voice crying out in the wilderness but like Pandora, even though we see the future, the public(readers of this blog) will never believe us. If the report is negative, at least we will know that Andrea Rossi is a very honest man, I don’t think he’s THAT honest ,and the report will be positive, but what will that mean? Very little. No hint of a theory,not published in place of any repute, no peer review, and definitly, no way for others to reproduce it. A tour of the working ecat will always be six months in the future.

      • C. Kirk

        So in other words you are saying if the report is positive it shows that Rossi has duped the scientists again or they’re incompetant or just part of the scam? Oh, please…. I suggest you reread Frank’s Why I believe in the E-Cat at the top of the page…..

        • Broncobet

          Thanks for the reply as I really enjoy this site. I don’t recall your posts so if you’re new, welcome, if not, sorry for the memory lapse. I did as you suggested and found Franks reasons for believing unconvincing, but Frank is an honest man doing a good job. I am not always 100% one way or the other but have changed my views over time. It is a good thing that you are a true believer maybe you can lift some of my recent skepticism as I’m tiring of being the wet blanket realist at the party and want a little of my faith restored. Today is a watershed as Oct 5th was my guess for the report, made in late Spring when other insisted it was a matter of a few days, you wouldn’t think they’d be able to delay till now but they did with little effort. I now confidently predict the report will be here before Oct 5th 2015. Don’t disappoint me. If it turns out that Rossi is a clever story teller and there is indeed no truth whatsoever to the extraordinary claims ,will you hold that against him and feel yourself betrayed, or will you count yourself lucky to be entertained by such a talented raconteur, who took no investment from you? The good people on this blog were dreaming who would play Rossi in the movie to be made(that Italian that looks just like him) I assure you that the movie will be far more entertaining and morally uplifting if, he is the Italian Robin Hood. Anyone can get rich with a new energy process, who wouldn’t want to invest in that? It takes a folk hero to take from the ignorant rich.That way there is a moral to the story,which all good ones do.This is a very old story,the hero comes to a bridge guarded by a troll or dragon and to get by he must solve a riddle ,the answer is always true but in an unexpected way.Rossi tamed the dragons of capitalism with his wits and clever tales and he left us with a moral, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is and a fool and his money are soon parted. Tell me, who is the greater friend of Rossi, I who will hold him in high esteem no matter the outcome or the rest of the world that will consider him dishonest or incompetent if his claims are untrue?

        • please don’t ridicule that (broken) logic, it is published by top DoE adiviser Huizenga:

          “Furthermore, if the claimed excess heat exceeds that possible by other conventional processes (chemical, mechanical, etc.), one must conclude that an error has been made in measuring the excess heat.”

          – Huizenga

          http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/293wikipedia.html

          Huizenga, J.R., Cold Fusion: The Scientific Fiasco of the Century. second ed. 1993, New York: Oxford University Press.

    • bachcole

      I don’t consider that the report will be negative for so many reasons that I just hope to get a few of them down. If by “negative” you mean not yet commerce ready, then that might happen. If by “negative” you mean no excess heat, the first test already proved that there was plenty of excess heat. Also, the test and the report preparation phase is continuing, so it must be positive is some sense. Rossi is excited, so it is probably positive in the commerce ready sense.

  • GreenWin

    The operative word here is, clearance.

    • Fortyniner

      Conditional clearance, though. Conditional upon monopoly control.

      • GreenWin

        Considering the historical SPAWAR role and Rossie “carrier” statements…

  • GreenWin

    The operative word here is, clearance.

    • bachcole

      Yeah, that sort of sounds governmental or intelligence community. I wonder . . . . . Or it could just be Rossi’s English.

      • Jonnyb

        Yeh sound like some kind of Military or government Clearance. NASA?

        • Ophelia Rump

          Practitioners of the dark arts.
          Denizens of the Plaza

      • Obvious

        It seems to me to be the right word, considering the secretive nature of the device’s operation controls, and the fact that it is in a industrial situation, with it’s own levels of proprietary (production methods? etc) secrets.

      • Omega Z

        My 2 cents.
        The word “Clearance” would be those cleared by IH/Rossi & associates as in people they trust to maintain a NDA and also not run off & start developing their own LENR project.

    • Cleared by who, though? Rossi? IH? Or some other entity? As others have suggested, the word does have an ‘official’ ring to it.

      • GreenWin

        Considering the historical SPAWAR role and Rossie “carrier” statements…

  • Jonnyb

    Yeh sound like some kind of Military or government Clearance. NASA?

    • Ophelia Rump

      Practitioners of the dark arts.

  • Broncobet

    That is funny,people are so sensitive.Of course ,not that it makes any difference, but of course we know you’re 100% right.

  • mike

    notice rossi’s past tense use of design. Made me giddy. 🙂

  • Barbierir

    Andrea Rossi
    October 2nd, 2014 at 3:32 PM
    DTravchenko:
    Our 1 MW plant is a magnificence and an ouvre d’art: we resolved the problems we had ( so far…). We have a great team!
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • GreenWin

      And the operative expression *here* is, “work of art.” Indeed, the challenge in this drama is only 50% technical. The other half is political. It takes a remarkable team to sort out the political and technical issues. Damned impressive.

  • Ophelia Rump

    That’s great! Very creative thinking. I do not like the pollution potential, but you could actually use it to pump petro back into the earth for sequestration That would be a hoot.

  • Sanjeev

    That was fast!
    The one year time was probably for allowing the public to visit the plant, not for solving the problems. Blame it on bad English.

    • Ophelia Rump

      The public will never visit that plant. That was never going to happen. Rossi has made that much clear.

      • winebuff

        This tech will get buried by the powers that be

        • hempenearth

          The Chinese won’t go along with that

          • Broncobet

            The Chinese are wisely pursuing advanced nuclear power.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Yes, Rossi has said that there will be visits, but by invitation, not free E-cat tourism.

        • Heath

          I would imagine that it would be comparable to how Google has handled visits of the Bloom Energy Servers that have been in use on their campus in Mountain View, CA. Probably very limited. I can imagine that Rossi’s customer does not see its manufacturing plant as a theme park, so wide open public viewing is probably not in the cards. It would be great if IH would set up its own public demo plant in Raleigh.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Rossi had been asked about automated fabrication shortly before the “problems” affair and as far as I remember he answered that it would take one year to reach that point. So I interpret his later statement about a one-year-period with relation to this. Manual or half-automated production of additional plants could begin earlier.

    • Jonnyb

      Why is it the fault of the English? sorry bad English I miss understood.

      • Fortyniner

        All English are bad – at least in the movies.

        • GreenWin

          Kindly explain that to Ms. Julie Andrews.

          • Fortyniner

            OK – with the possible exception of Ms. Goody Twoshoes Andrews. But maybe she pulls the wings off flies when no-one is looking – we English have a reputation to live down to.

  • Sanjeev

    That was fast!
    The one year time was probably for allowing the public to visit the plant, not for solving the problems. Blame it on bad English.

    • Ophelia Rump

      The public will never visit that plant. That was never going to happen. Rossi has made that much clear.

      • winebuff

        This tech will get buried by the powers that be

        • hempenearth

          The Chinese won’t go along with that

          • Broncobet

            The Chinese are wisely pursuing advanced nuclear power.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Yes, Rossi has said that there will be visits, but by invitation, not free E-cat tourism.

        • Heath

          I would imagine that it would be comparable to how Google has handled visits of the Bloom Energy Servers that have been in use on their campus in Mountain View, CA. Probably very limited. I can imagine that Rossi’s customer does not see its manufacturing plant as a theme park, so wide open public viewing is probably not in the cards. It would be great if IH would set up its own public demo plant in Raleigh.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Rossi had been asked about automated fabrication shortly before the “problems” affair and as far as I remember he answered that it would take one year to reach that point. So I interpret his later statement about a one-year-period with relation to this. Manual or half-automated production of additional plants could begin earlier.

    • Jonnyb

      Why is it the fault of the English? sorry bad English I miss understood.

      • All English are bad – at least in the movies.

        • GreenWin

          Kindly explain that to Ms. Julie Andrews.

          • OK – with the possible exception of Ms. Goody Twoshoes Andrews. But maybe she pulls the wings off flies when no-one is looking – we English have a reputation to live down to.

  • Christopher Calder

    What any of us know about all of this, Rossi/Industrial Heat, known competitors, and other unnamed parties working on LENR, is like a tip of an iceberg. You can see traces of events and situations that would suggest layers of activity that we know nothing about. This is a poker game, and figuring out what is a bluff, what is real, what is hope, and what is fact, is difficult. I don’t think the downturn in oil prices has anything to do with LENR, but rather the world economic slump. But, I do think there is allot going on in the way of corporate activity that remains secret because of the taboo against “COLD FUSION”, that dreaded nightmare term. The day that taboo vanishes, and I think it will vanish quickly, we will find out allot about the history of events that have occurred without us knowing a thing about them.

    • I agree this is an iceberg and even in the shallow water around there is visible revolution… finance is unaware of it, or the effect would be huge.

      however i don’t think it is a poker game with players hiding information to make a surprise…
      It is more like shy teenagers knowing the water is warm but who are afraid that the (academic) girls around ridicule their naked body take away their pants to dip.

      • Broncobet

        Finance is aware of everything and has a probability on all,including alien invasion of giant ants or the EmDrive, the number one thing they know is all potential energy sources.People counting on CF or wind or solar are doing the bidding of the coal and gas barrons keeping the only clean, safe, affordable, energy, nuclear power, out of the picture.

    • Broncobet

      You are correct on oil prices. Instead of an iceberg a more apt analogy would be cloud,as there is way more appearing than any substance. BTW Tomorrow is my guess for the report and beyond all comprehension they are going to merrily skip right past it.If not tomorrow I’ll make my next guess for Oct 5 2015.

  • What any of us know about all of this, Rossi/Industrial Heat, known competitors, and other unnamed parties working on LENR, is like a tip of an iceberg. You can see traces of events and situations that would suggest layers of activity that we know nothing about. This is a poker game, and figuring out what is a bluff, what is real, what is hope, and what is fact, is difficult. I don’t think the downturn in oil prices has anything to do with LENR, but rather the world economic slump. But, I do think there is allot going on in the way of corporate activity that remains secret because of the taboo against “COLD FUSION”, that dreaded nightmare term. The day that taboo vanishes, and I think it will vanish quickly, we will find out allot about the history of events that have occurred without us knowing a thing about them.

    • bachcole

      I agree 111%.

    • I agree this is an iceberg and even in the shallow water around there is visible revolution… finance is unaware of it, or the effect would be huge.

      however i don’t think it is a poker game with players hiding information to make a surprise…
      It is more like shy teenagers knowing the water is warm but who are afraid that the (academic) girls around ridicule their naked body take away their pants to dip.

      • Broncobet

        Finance is aware of everything and has a probability on all,including alien invasion of giant ants or the EmDrive, the number one thing they know is all potential energy sources.People counting on CF or wind or solar are doing the bidding of the coal and gas barrons keeping the only clean, safe, affordable, energy, nuclear power, out of the picture.

    • Broncobet

      You are correct on oil prices. Instead of an iceberg a more apt analogy would be cloud,as there is way more appearing than any substance. BTW Tomorrow is my guess for the report and beyond all comprehension they are going to merrily skip right past it.If not tomorrow I’ll make my next guess for Oct 5 2015.

  • pg

    For sure he likes to play with his audience…

    • Or perhaps the situation simply changes from day to day – just as it does for most engineering R&D projects.

      • Broncobet

        No, pg has insight.

  • Jonnyb

    I believe the best scenario is a very positive report in a highly respected journal, followed very quickly by a genuine demonstration of a working plant. Maybe this will be possible now.

  • Jonnyb

    I believe the best scenario is a very positive report in a highly respected journal, followed very quickly by a genuine demonstration of a working plant. Maybe this will be possible now.

  • JCRenoir
    October 2nd, 2014 at 12:09 PM

    Andrea, now the rumors that the report id very close are becoming loud. Are you hearing any whisper of it?

    JCR

    Andrea Rossi
    October 2nd, 2014 at 3:34 PM

    JCRenoir:
    I too hear the rumors: you said that come from 100 Harley Davidsons, I take act of what you say.

    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Is this the hint??

    • Pekka Janhunen

      I don’t think it’s a hint of COP because JCRenoir asked two questions, in the first of which he brought up the number 100. I think Rossi answered to that one.

      • I tought that the “I too hear the rumors” means that he knows as well that report is coming shortly.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Yes, that might well be the case.

      • GreenWin

        And the operative expression *here* is, “work of art.” Indeed, the challenge in this drama is only 50% technical. The other half is political. It takes a remarkable team to sort out the political and technical issues. Damned impressive.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Rossi on JONP is like the old ELIZA AI (m-x doctor in EMACS) — it parrots back whatever question is sent to Rossi with a twist:

        Rossi/ELIZA Simulation: I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice.

        Me: When do you expect testing to be completed on the 1 MW plant?

        Rossi/ELIZA: Why do you say that?

        Because that is a material question.

        Rossi/ELISA: Is it because is a material question that you came to me?

        What do you think of Parkhomov?

        Rossi ELIZA: Earlier you said is a material question?

        Parkhomov — the man you said could not catch you?

        Maybe your life has something to do with this.

  • JCRenoir
    October 2nd, 2014 at 12:09 PM

    Andrea, now the rumors that the report id very close are becoming loud. Are you hearing any whisper of it?

    JCR

    Andrea Rossi
    October 2nd, 2014 at 3:34 PM

    JCRenoir:
    I too hear the rumors: you said that come from 100 Harley Davidsons, I take act of what you say.

    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Is this the hint??

    • Pekka Janhunen

      I don’t think it’s a hint of COP because JCRenoir asked two questions, in the first of which he brought up the number 100. I think Rossi answered to that one.

      • I thought that the “I too hear the rumors” means that he knows as well that report is coming shortly.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Yes, that might well be the case.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Rossi on JONP is like the old ELIZA AI (m-x doctor in EMACS) — it parrots back whatever question is sent to Rossi with a twist:

        Rossi/ELIZA Simulation: I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice.

        Me: When do you expect testing to be completed on the 1 MW plant?

        Rossi/ELIZA: Why do you say that?

        Me: Because that is a material question.

        Rossi/ELISA: Is it because is a material question that you came to me?

        Me: What do you think of Parkhomov?

        Rossi ELIZA: Earlier you said is a material question?

        Me: Parkhomov — the man you said could not catch you?

        Rossi/ELIZA: Maybe your life has something to do with this.

        ———-
        (Actual transcript on Emacs 23.3 running on my Mac!)
        Results: 60% probability Rossi on JONP is a variant of ELIZA with peppered Eng-litalianisms/mistakes thrown in like it is a Magnificence of a Snake Clown.

  • Joseph j

    I know Rossi lives in FL but, if Rossi here meant that he also works in
    FL, the customer might be a desalination business? Poseidon?

    Andrea Rossi
    October 1st, 2014 at 7:48 PM
    Andre Blum:
    I am always in the USA, mainly in North Carolina and in Florida, focused on my work for Industrial Heat and IH’s Customer.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • LuFong

    Given all the changes, maybe someone should ask whether the 1 year period has started (and when)? (I would but my questions are spammed),

    • Ophelia Rump

      Somewhere around last June. At that time Rossi was talking about the work of the installation and issues they were facing. I assume that the reactor was operational at the time or could not have been having issues.

      Back then Rossi had hoped they would be having tours in 2014 but that got pushed out until the customer has a solid year of operation. I expect the customer was pressing IH hard for swift satisfaction. Either that or someone from sales and marketing laid out the cold hard facts of business life in no uncertain terms. So expect the one year mark triggered events to start happening in late spring early summer.

      • Omega Z

        I’m thinking they didn’t start the clock until it had already been in operation for a couple months. I assume there would be some major issues initially to resolve before settling in to a routine. So it could have started about October. Pray nothing happens that starts a reset.

  • Who’s Orsobubu?

    • Ophelia Rump
      • Is he the one on the right or left?

    • Frank Acland

      He’s a regular poster on the JONP, and comes here sometimes. He and Rossi have a bit of a banter going.

    • bachcole

      He is a communist dude who comes around here now and then. He is very ideological and (of course) thinks that his version of “to each according to his needs, from each according to their ability” is going to work and that all of the other version got hijacked by bad people. No amount of reason is going to sway him.

  • Ophelia Rump

    It is certainly interesting that they have refit the customer installation with upgrade Cats.
    I presume that they have done this without shutting down, a rolling reactor replacement is quite an accomplishment.

    • Brokeeper

      And to test individual prototypes with an industrial load. Smart.

    • Brokeeper

      And to test individual prototypes with an industrial load. Smart.

    • Ronzonni

      Yes. Especially with the very complex control system Rossi talked about. Does that have to be reprogrammed after every new upgrade?

      • Omega Z

        Each reactor has it’s own individual computer control module under a Master CPU. So that would not be much of a problem. There’s also extra reactor modules that can be put in operation while 1 is taken off line.

        • Upgrading the control system would be a relatively trivial task if each PLC carries identical program data, but not if each one has to be matched to its reactor by entering reactor-specific values.

    • Ronzonni

      Yes. Especially with the very complex control system Rossi talked about. Does that have to be reprogrammed after every new upgrade?

    • William D Fleming

      It might not be all that hard if the cells were designed for easy replacement. Smaller pressure chambers make a lot of sense. I suppose the new smaller ones must have the same sensors and heating coils as the old so that reprogramming is probably minimal. Sounds like the system can run indefinitely just by changing out the cells. Just speculating of course. I wonder if I drove up there they’d let me see the thing. How about it Signor Rossi?

    • William D Fleming

      It might not be all that hard if the cells were designed for easy replacement. Smaller pressure chambers make a lot of sense. I suppose the new smaller ones must have the same sensors and heating coils as the old so that reprogramming is probably minimal. Sounds like the system can run indefinitely just by changing out the cells. Just speculating of course. I wonder if I drove up there they’d let me see the thing. How about it Signor Rossi?

    • LilyLover

      I’m sure: Self maintaining machines of the “Forbidden Planet” is Rossi’s inspiration and goal and I have enough faith that he’ll succeed 99.99% in doing that. Simply wish that others don’t get ourselves extinct before then.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    This might be a little off subject but could the “Hydrogen Society” become a competitor of IH/Rossi? Toyota opens the door to this possibility by opening up their fuel cell patents.

    http://www.gizmag.com/toyota-opens-fuel-cell-patents-to-drive-hydrogen-society/35453/

  • ecatworld

    Two quick questions if you don’t mind.

    a) You said your team was able to reduce the volume of reactors — did they have to shut down the plant to make this change?

    b) When did the 1 year test begin.
    Andrea Rossi

    January 8th, 2015 at 11:53 AM

    Frank Acland:
    As you know, I cannot give information about the operation of the plant, nor about its timing. Due information will be given only when the tests will have been completed.
    The reduction of the volume of the reactors is not necessarily made when the plant is shut down, because the reactors can be worked on separately, while the others are in operation.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Ronzonni

      I can not understand why Rossi refuses to give information which would interest millions, give them some hope and would harm no one. I also have to wonder why after many years of work and finally, with good funding, so much effort is concentrated in one plant and one customer. There are so many unnecessary mysteries with Rossi.

      • Omega Z

        Because to much info brings to much scrutiny & nuisance interference. Rossi has also said on JONP that he doesn’t want to give information that could prove wrong at a latter time. People use this against him in their attacks.

        As to “so much effort is concentrated in one plant and one customer”
        Huge difference between Lab work & a Product under actual working conditions in a customers facilities. What works well in the Lab may totally fail in the real world.
        I’ve witnessed this on a Grand Scale. A $5 million dollar piece of scrap.

        • Fortyniner

          I hope you managed to successfully scapegoat an underling or outside contractor!

    • LuFong

      Well if this is anything like the 6 month test that lasted 32 days and took a year we could be in for a long wait.

      You can be sure that IH is trotting investors through the plant as we speak though. My hunch is the customer is outed before the “year” is up.

      • Rossi’s competitive spirit might be his downfall. A dark horse like Alexander Parkhomov may get the hero’s reward.

      • jousterusa

        Who is Orsobubu? Bubu Bear?

  • Frank Acland

    Two quick questions if you don’t mind.

    a) You said your team was able to reduce the volume of reactors — did they have to shut down the plant to make this change?

    b) When did the 1 year test begin.
    Andrea Rossi

    January 8th, 2015 at 11:53 AM

    Frank Acland:
    As you know, I cannot give information about the operation of the plant, nor about its timing. Due information will be given only when the tests will have been completed.
    The reduction of the volume of the reactors is not necessarily made when the plant is shut down, because the reactors can be worked on separately, while the others are in operation.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Frank Acland

    Two quick questions if you don’t mind.

    a) You said your team was able to reduce the volume of reactors — did they have to shut down the plant to make this change?

    b) When did the 1 year test begin.
    Andrea Rossi

    January 8th, 2015 at 11:53 AM

    Frank Acland:
    As you know, I cannot give information about the operation of the plant, nor about its timing. Due information will be given only when the tests will have been completed.
    The reduction of the volume of the reactors is not necessarily made when the plant is shut down, because the reactors can be worked on separately, while the others are in operation.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Ronzonni

      I can not understand why Rossi refuses to give information which would interest millions, give them some hope and would harm no one. I also have to wonder why after many years of work and finally, with good funding, so much effort is concentrated in one plant and one customer. There are so many unnecessary mysteries with Rossi.

      • Omega Z

        Because to much info brings to much scrutiny & nuisance interference. Rossi has also said on JONP that he doesn’t want to give information that could prove wrong at a latter time. People use this against him in their attacks.

        As to “so much effort is concentrated in one plant and one customer”
        Huge difference between Lab work & a Product under actual working conditions in a customers facilities. What works well in the Lab may totally fail in the real world.
        I’ve witnessed this on a Grand Scale. A $5 million dollar piece of scrap.

        • I hope you managed to successfully scapegoat an underling or outside contractor…

    • Ronzonni

      I can not understand why Rossi refuses to give information which would interest millions, give them some hope and would harm no one. I also have to wonder why after many years of work and finally, with good funding, so much effort is concentrated in one plant and one customer. There are so many unnecessary mysteries with Rossi.

  • georgehants

    Not at all like you Roger Bird, or do you need to re-read your above comment to convince yourself.
    Like myself who you continually misinterpret and insult to suit your own crude views.
    Many of us just say, that many things can be improved and put up Evidence to show the faults.
    Any half-wit can call anybody names without Evidence, like a silly little child.
    Please stop giving your silly “opinions” and start putting up Evidence every-time you speak against others, to make your point.
    And please try replying to what people actually say and not your made-up version that comes from your seeming inability to read and comprehend.
    Or are you just trying to impress the cheap-seat peanut gallery?
    I apologise if you have dyslexia or some other inhibiting ailment. please let me know if you have and I can allow for your limitations.

  • EEStorFanFibb

    what the heck is Orsobubu?

    “I must add, under the permanent direction of Orsobubu, that the final output could be positive, but also negative.”

    • Chris, Italy

      Yogi’s smaller companion. Orso is Italian for bear and bubu is the way of spelling boo-boo over here.

      • EEStorFanFibb

        LOL

      • TomR

        Don’t be so hard on Orsobubu.

      • LilyLover

        A political system that abdicates responsibility of currency and credit manufacturing to private interests, is destined to fail under any banner.

      • Masterlock2020

        I can’t believe how little has changed in the Rossi saga. Still talk of anonymous “customers,” 3rd party testing, etc. Yet nothing TRULY verifiable. And this is after how many years? I’ll believe this the day I see it in the news.

  • what the heck is Orsobubu?

    “I must add, under the permanent direction of Orsobubu, that the final output could be positive, but also negative.”

  • what the heck is Orsobubu?

    “I must add, under the permanent direction of Orsobubu, that the final output could be positive, but also negative.”

    • bachcole

      orsobubu is a handle for a human being whose head is filled with crazy ideas like his ultra pure version of Marxism will work when so many other’s have failed. Unlike cold fusion, people get killed when a political system fails, millions of people.

    • bachcole

      orsobubu is a handle for a human being whose head is filled with crazy ideas like his ultra pure version of Marxism will work when so many other’s have failed. Unlike cold fusion, people get killed when a political system fails, millions of people.

      • TomR

        Don’t be so hard on Orsobubu.

        • bachcole

          Every human being is infinitely precious. But some human beings are funny. Sorry if I was hard on him. Hopefully he doesn’t read these comments. He has not been around for a very long time.

      • LilyLover

        A political system that abdicates responsibility of currency and credit manufacturing to private interests, is destined to fail under any banner.

        • bachcole

          And how does that relate to what I said?

    • Chris, Italy

      Yogi’s smaller companion. Orso is Italian for bear and bubu is the way of spelling boo-boo over here.

      a<b cde

    • Chris, Italy

      Yogi’s smaller companion. Orso is Italian for bear and bubu is the way of spelling boo-boo over here.

      a<b cde

  • Ted-X

    Several “proved non-replications” may lead to a dismissal of a patent. Patents by definition need to be replaceable.

    • Ted-X

      Correction: Patents MUST BE REPLICABLE.

  • Rossi’s competitive spirit might be his downfall. A dark horse like Alexander Parkhomov may get the hero’s reward.

  • Frechette

    Update #12 should have a date Jan. 8 2015. Yes or no?

  • Frechette

    Update #12 should have a date Jan. 8 2015. Yes or no?

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Is it possible the “customer” plant is using the E-Cat to produce Hydrogen via steam reforming?

  • Chris, Italy

    Mañana, mañana, siempre que dice mañana, esto…

  • Chris, Italy

    Mañana, mañana, siempre que dice mañana, esto…

  • Gerard McEk

    I would not be surprisied that during the year 2015 IH will be pushed by other developments and/or compitition and decides to enter the commercial phase.

    • Fortyniner

      I sincerely hope that is the case. If Rossi’s suggested schedule is a ‘best case’ scenario, I hate to think what the worst case might be.

      This technology is not some new way of making light bulbs – it is at least as important as the invention of steam power or the transistor, and deserves to have huge resources thrown at its development. One small test reactor feeding into someone’s production system for a year or more simply doesn’t cut it by a country mile. I have to admit that if this recent statement is not some kind of subterfuge, that I am rapidly losing any remaining faith in IH’s stewardship of e-cat technology.

  • Gerard McEk

    I would not be surprisied that during the year 2015 IH will be pushed by other developments and/or compitition and decides to enter the commercial phase.

    • I sincerely hope that is the case. If Rossi’s suggested schedule is a ‘best case’ scenario, I hate to think what the worst case might be. And of course successful medium-term deployment of a pilot plant is only one small step on the way to commercial production of industrial heaters, not any kind of end goal in itself.

      This technology is not some new way of making light bulbs – it is at least as important as the invention of steam power or the transistor, and the desperate need for clean energy means that it deserves to have huge resources thrown at its development. One small test reactor feeding into some unknown company’s production system for a year or more simply doesn’t cut it by a country mile. I have to admit that if this recent statement is not some kind of subterfuge, that I am rapidly losing any remaining faith in IH’s stewardship of e-cat technology.

    • clovis ray

      I thought he had already entered the market, the way I figure this last test could be in it’s
      3 month, if they would have started in dec. and will end in nov, only 8 months to go , and counting, with lots of fun in between, the most exciting work IS by MF/MP.

  • Ged

    Minor error in the update title; should be Jan 2016 rather than Dec 2016 (I hope that wasn’t a prophetic slip!). Really worried me for a moment, as that’s a big window for a “best case”, heh!

    • ecatworld

      lol — thanks Ged. My mistake, which I’ve fixed now.

  • Ged

    Minor error in the update title; should be Jan 2016 rather than Dec 2016 (I hope that wasn’t a prophetic slip!). Really worried me for a moment, as that’s a big window for a “best case”, heh!

    • Frank Acland

      lol — thanks Ged. My mistake, which I’ve fixed now.

  • Jimr

    confusion, headline states Nov 15-Dec 16, Rossi’s statement. StatesNov 15 to Jan 16?

  • Jimr

    confusion, headline states Nov 15-Dec 16, Rossi’s statement. StatesNov 15 to Jan 16?

  • Masterlock2020

    I can’t believe how little has changed in the Rossi saga. Still talk of anonymous “customers,” 3rd party testing, etc. Yet nothing TRULY verifiable. And this is after how many years? I’ll believe this the day I see it in Reuters, or can buy one in Home Depot.

  • jousterusa

    Who is Orsobubu? Bubu Bear?

    • bachcole

      orsobubu used to come around here. If I describe him, Frank will toss my comment. (:->) Irrespective of what I may think of his ideas, he is infinitely valuable and precious.

  • Another year to wait. Let’s hope MFMP is doing it in the meantime. Then IH can’t relaxe on their one single plant.

    • artefact

      I don’t think it will get too boring this year.

      • there is a quote I’ve read that people over estimate what they can do in 1 year and under estimate what they can do in a decade.

        this year it will probably advance, but noit be the revolution.
        but the revolution that people estimate to take 20-40 years will take 10-15 years

        see what happened with Internet and mobile.
        in 1993 came the web… I was there, nobody cared.
        in 2000 it was a bubble. in 2005 it have disintegrated many business model (eg: travel agencies). today it is heart of most business and at least required.

    • It has the feel now of a controlled roll out. Collecting an entire year of data on one plant before doing anything else seems overly cautious. I mean, if any of us had a ground-breaking technology and knew it worked and would solve a whole host of problems as well as make us buckets of money, would we let it drip-drip-drip or would we be everywhere with it, licensing it for dozens of vertical markets, informing government officials and extolling its virtues in the media.

      They could be pumping out thousands of working reactors and selling them to industries who know what they’re doing instead of messing around with engineering megawatt plants.

      Instead we have a very suspicious and interestingly timed major decline in oil prices and near silence from all those involved. We know the US government has been involved and is aware of this technology. I don’t want to go all conspiracy theory, but the behavior of Industrial Heat is consistent with being a good commercial citizen in the controlled introduction of a black swan technology in order to mitigate its negative effects.

      • Fortyniner

        If such a controlled introduction really is being carried out at a level that is able to seriously depress oil prices as a part of a strategic plan, then the game is being played well above the pay grade of a relatively tiny organisation such as Cherokee.

        That could only mean a sell-out to PTB, and full involvement by the existing energy cartels and their government proxies. This would almost certainly imply the formation behind the scenes of a world monopoly designed to ensure minimal damage to assets and profit flow, and the effective continuation of the status quo ante. That would not be particularly good news for anyone hoping for an energy (and political) revolution I think.

        • Yeah I agree but that’s what it’s starting to look like.

          Another scenario is that Industrial Heat really are on their own, not being shepherded by bigger entities, and are mismanaging the situation. Or have run into some issues that they are having trouble solving and are too paranoid about losing the IP to take a broader approach.

          After all the connections that we *know* exist though I find that harder to believe than the technology’s introduction is being managed collectively by the many interested parties at a high level.

          It should not surprise us that “money” is in charge. If there is anything that “money” knows it is how to protect itself and make more. Thinking they are unaware of its existence or importance is naive, I think.

        • Bernie777

          Unless IH has always been the US government. I have stated my conspiracy theories many times here, everything to me points to a government or very large entity, or both, trying to control LENR. We are seeing, an attempted, slow and controlled roll out of LENR to avoid destructive economic disruptions, with the large money interests smiling all the way to their banks.

          • bachcole

            Bernie, no offence intended, but when I hear about such ideas, and fear that the thinker of such ideas may have a mental defect. Seriously. Perhaps this means that I have a mental defect.

            Why isn’t there ever a conspiracy to do good? Why is it always bad?

          • Fortyniner

            Roger, your Pavlovian responses to any suggestion that people of power might actually conspire together is so predictable it is becoming very tedious. Perhaps you should indeed examine your own ‘mental defects’ before directing your pop psychology at others. No offense intended.

          • bachcole

            I examine my mental processes every day. I doubt that most people do. I doubt that conspiracy theorists do.

          • Fortyniner

            I wonder if you are really qualified for that particular job?

          • bachcole

            I know that you are trying to be funnily insulting. I do not take or feel offence because the truth is that no one is qualified to examine and correct their own mental processes. So comparing one’s mental processes with an ideal is the ONLY way to freedom and sanity. Reading scriptures, prayer, meditation, and selfless service are avenues to mental and spiritual health, for EVERYONE. Everything else is either stagnation or fretful confusion.

          • Fortyniner

            You are clearly a paragon of virtue that I could never emulate. I’ll just get back to my confused fretting.

          • Bernie777

            The answer to your first question is probably yes, you do have a mental defect. The answer to your second question, why there no conspiracies to do good, conspiracies are made to “corner a market” usually to gain money and power. No offence intended.

          • bachcole

            “Conspiracy theories” are not limited to cornering a market. There is a conspiracy theory that human beings didn’t really walk on the moon. There are too many conspiracy theories not associated with cornering a market to list, like who killed Kennedy.

            Could you please describe to me what my mental defect is, other than not agreeing with you and not imagining evil unicorns ruling the world.

          • Bernie777

            Dear bachcole, there is a reason I put quotation marks around the words, “corner the market”.

          • Omega Z

            bachcole
            Why isn’t there ever a conspiracy to do good?
            There are so-called conspiracies with good intent. Good intentions don’t always turn out well.

            I come upon an accident. Your setting there bleeding & shivering. It’s very cold out so I wrap you in a warm blanket. I couldn’t in good conscience just watch you freezing there. Little did I know that by warming you up, you would bleed out faster & die before the ambulance arrived. A good intention gone terribly wrong.

            Many of the so-called conspiracies people rant about are of good intentioned people who “Think” they know whats best for others. They usually don’t know squat.

          • bachcole

            Excellent presentation. Could you mention one of the well intentioned conspiracies? Could AGW be one of those well intentioned conspiracies?

          • Omega Z

            AGW is a mixed bag of worms. Following the UN agenda, A portion of the carbon taxes is meant for wealth redistribution(100’s of Billions a year). Tho I disagree with such schemes, this could be considered good intention.

            Following the 3rd world countries & Island nations political rantings on where is THEIR money & you can rest assured, 80% of this money will never reach the intended purposes with a wink & nod from those in the UN.

            From there it goes bad. Elitists Like Al Gore upset because others are gaming what they thought was the perfect Cap & Trade schemes of money for nothing without risk. Vegan support trying to force all others to submit to a vegan lifestyle. Elitists trying to force the commons from the beaches to make way for the rich & famous along with Corporate beach front resorts & on & on.

            Note in the truest sense, Conspiracies are usually without evidence, tho in the above the evidence is available for those who dig a little.

          • bachcole

            When I think of conspiracies, I think of deception and collaboration. I doubt if they said, “We don’t actually believe this AGW garbage, but this is how we are going to fool the public and we will make a ton of money from it and have really cool beach front homes too.” I don’t see that. I see a bunch of people individually believing in AGW and coincidentally being able to make money off of it.

          • that is a good description of groupthink, or similar.

            people are sincere, they lie to themselves, and they optimize their self manipulation for their economic interest (economic sometime involving moral asset like glory, self-esteem, being funded even if not better paid).

          • Fortyniner

            In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill….All these dangers are caused by human intervention….and thus the “real enemy, then, is humanity itself….believe humanity requires a common motivation, namely a common adversary in order to realize world government. It does not matter if this common enemy is “a real one or….one invented for the purpose.

            From the ‘Club of Rome’ publication, The First Global Revolution, 1990.

            This organization outlined how they would manufacture ecological scares in order to manipulate the public into accepting the imposition of a dictatorial world government run by them. One of many similar – see http://www.c3headlines.com/global-warming-quotes-climate-change-quotes.html.

          • Omega Z

            In shorthand, You could just post-
            I’m more then Qualified to determine whats best for you…
            The New World Order- The Nanny State

            Note that this is a Societal Issue. There is no shortage of unqualified people(Friends, Family, Strangers, Etc…) who will tell you whats best for you. The difference between them & the so-called PTB is, TPTB have both Money & Power to try and implement their beliefs. No matter how misguided they may be.

          • bachcole

            Although 49er just convinced me that conspiracies are very likely and probably certain, I don’t think that they can do that with cold fusion, because:

            1. They are already doing it to cold fusion and have been doing it for the past 26 years.

            2. The Internet

      • Omega Z

        LENR G
        “Collecting an entire year of data on one plant before doing anything else seems overly cautious.” I don’t think so.

        This is R&D. No one is going to produce 1000’s of these before the parameters of control are reasonably known. The Pilot plant is to obtain and/or enhance that knowledge base of controlling multiple reactors simultaneously.

        You suggest putting this in the hands of those “who know what they’re doing”. Who would you suggest. It’s already in the hands of the most qualified people there is. Rossi & his team. Where did this team come from?

        “Putting this in the hands of others would just be a delay. They would likely spend a couple years with Ross’s help just analyzing it & ultimately, They too would setup a Pilot plant & run it for at least a year.” The whole purpose of a Pilot Plant is to prove out a concept. To validate it before production begins. Consider this a Beta product.

        You appear to think the Pilot plant is a waste of time. To the Contrary, Everything else Rossi has done has been leading up to this. This Is The Money Shot.

        NOTE: Industrial Heat has a mailing address & a phone number. Cherokee manages 2 Billion in investments. However, Industrial Heat has NADA, Nothing. It consists of a dozen Entities of which only 2 names are known. Who are the unknown entities. GE, Siemens, B&W, Duke Energy…

        INDUSTRIAL HEAT. It is a Front Company.
        Those you want to become involved in E-cat, May Already Be Involved. Likely the Providers of facilities & the people of expert skills on Rossi’s team.

        Hmmm. Maybe Rossi did put this in the hands of others? The “Industrial Heat Front” has spent a couple years just analyzing it with Rossi’s help & ultimately, setup a Pilot plant to run for at least a year.

  • Another year to wait. Let’s hope MFMP is proving it in the meantime.

    Then IH can’t relaxe on their one single plant when the competition is growing up.

    • artefact

      I don’t think it will get too boring this year.

      • there is a quote I’ve read that people over estimate what they can do in 1 year and under estimate what they can do in a decade.

        this year it will probably advance, but noit be the revolution.
        but the revolution that people estimate to take 20-40 years will take 10-15 years

        see what happened with Internet and mobile.
        in 1993 came the web… I was there, nobody cared.
        in 2000 it was a bubble. in 2005 it have disintegrated many business model (eg: travel agencies). today it is heart of most business and at least required.

    • It has the feel now of a controlled roll out. Collecting an entire year of data on one plant before doing anything else seems overly cautious. I mean, if any of us had a ground-breaking technology and knew it worked and would solve a whole host of problems as well as make us buckets of money, would we let it drip-drip-drip or would we be everywhere with it, licensing it for dozens of vertical markets, informing government officials and extolling its virtues in the media.

      They could be pumping out thousands of working reactors and selling them to industries who know what they’re doing instead of messing around with engineering megawatt plants.

      Instead we have a very suspicious and interestingly timed major decline in oil prices and near silence from all those involved. We know the US government has been involved and is aware of this technology. I don’t want to go all conspiracy theory, but the behavior of Industrial Heat is consistent with being a good commercial citizen in the controlled introduction of a black swan technology in order to mitigate its negative effects.

      • If such a controlled introduction really is being carried out at a level that is able to seriously depress oil prices as a part of a strategic plan, then the game is being played well above the pay grade of a relatively tiny organisation such as Cherokee.

        That could only mean a sell-out to PTB, and full involvement by the existing energy cartels and their government proxies. This would almost certainly imply the formation behind the scenes of a world monopoly designed to ensure minimal damage to cartel asset values and profit flow, and the effective continuation of the status quo ante, embracing only tame embodiments of LENR technology. Not particularly good news for anyone hoping for an energy (and social/political) revolution I think.

        • Yeah I agree but that’s what it’s starting to look like.

          Another scenario is that Industrial Heat really are on their own, not being shepherded by bigger entities, and are mismanaging the situation. Or have run into some issues that they are having trouble solving and are too paranoid about losing the IP to take a broader approach.

          After all the connections that we *know* exist though I find that harder to believe than the technology’s introduction is being managed collectively by the many interested parties at a high level.

          It should not surprise us that “money” is in charge. If there is anything that “money” knows it is how to protect itself and make more. Thinking they are unaware of its existence or importance is naive, I think.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Unless IH has always been the US government. I have stated my conspiracy theories many times here, everything to me points to a government or very large entity, or both, trying to control LENR. We are seeing, an attempted, slow and controlled roll out of LENR to avoid destructive economic disruptions, with the large money interests, taking advantage of inside info, and smiling all the way to their banks.

          • bachcole

            Bernie, no offence intended, but when I hear about such ideas, and fear that the thinker of such ideas may have a mental defect. Seriously. Perhaps this means that I have a mental defect.

            Why isn’t there ever a conspiracy to do good? Why is it always bad?

          • Bachcole, I think that your introspective observation may be accurate. You do seem to react in a predictable and rather Pavlovian manner to any suggestion that powerful people might actually conspire together for their mutual benefit and to the detriment of others – something that many perfectly sane people would think was an obvious fact of life.

            Perhaps you should indeed examine your own ‘mental defects’ before posting (no matter how obliquely) your typically ad hominem suggestions of psychological instability. No offence intended.

          • bachcole

            I examine my mental processes every day. I doubt that most people do. I doubt that conspiracy theorists do.

          • I wonder if you are properly qualified for that particular job?

          • bachcole

            I know that you are trying to be funnily insulting. I do not take or feel offence because the truth is that no one is qualified to examine and correct their own mental processes. So comparing one’s mental processes with an ideal is the ONLY way to freedom and sanity. Reading scriptures, prayer, meditation, and selfless service are avenues to mental and spiritual health, for EVERYONE. Everything else is either stagnation or fretful confusion.

          • You are clearly a paragon of virtue that I could never emulate, Roger. I’ll just get back to my confused fretting then.

          • bachcole

            I guess you are trying to be insulting because I hurt your feelings or something. I do not feel insulted because I gave an exact representation of my real attitude towards life. I am sorry if you don’t like it.

          • bachcole

            Actually, nothing I said related to virtue. It was about how I make sure that how and what I think is not nonsense or self-destructive or rationalization or groupthink.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            The answer to your first question is probably yes, you do have a mental defect. The answer to your second question, why there no conspiracies to do good, conspiracies are made to “corner a market” usually to gain money and power. No offence intended.

          • bachcole

            “Conspiracy theories” are not limited to cornering a market. There is a conspiracy theory that human beings didn’t really walk on the moon. There are too many conspiracy theories not associated with cornering a market to list, like who killed Kennedy.

            Could you please describe to me what my mental defect is, other than not agreeing with you and not imagining evil unicorns ruling the world.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Dear bachcole, there is a reason I put quotation marks around the words, “corner the market”.

          • Omega Z

            bachcole
            Why isn’t there ever a conspiracy to do good?
            There are so-called conspiracies with good intent. Good intentions don’t always turn out well.

            I come upon an accident. Your setting there bleeding & shivering. It’s very cold out so I wrap you in a warm blanket. I couldn’t in good conscience just watch you freezing there. Little did I know that by warming you up, you would bleed out faster & die before the ambulance arrived. A good intention gone terribly wrong.

            Many of the so-called conspiracies people rant about are of good intentioned people who “Think” they know whats best for others. They usually don’t know squat.

          • bachcole

            Excellent presentation. Could you mention one of the well intentioned conspiracies? Could AGW be one of those well intentioned conspiracies?

          • Omega Z

            AGW is a mixed bag of worms. Following the UN agenda, A portion of the carbon taxes is meant for wealth redistribution(100’s of Billions a year). Tho I disagree with such schemes, this could be considered good intention.

            Following the 3rd world countries & Island nations political rantings on where is THEIR money & you can rest assured, 80% of this money will never reach the intended purposes with a wink & nod from those in the UN.

            From there it goes bad. Elitists Like Al Gore upset because others are gaming what they thought was the perfect Cap & Trade schemes of money for nothing without risk. Vegan support trying to force all others to submit to a vegan lifestyle. Elitists trying to force the commons from the beaches to make way for the rich & famous along with Corporate beach front resorts & on & on.

            Note in the truest sense, Conspiracies are usually without evidence, tho in the above the evidence is available for those who dig a little.

          • bachcole

            When I think of conspiracies, I think of deception and collaboration. I doubt if they said, “We don’t actually believe this AGW garbage, but this is how we are going to fool the public and we will make a ton of money from it and have really cool beach front homes too.” I don’t see that. I see a bunch of people individually believing in AGW and coincidentally being able to make money off of it.

          • that is a good description of groupthink, or similar.

            people are sincere, they lie to themselves, and they optimize their self manipulation for their economic interest (economic sometime involving moral asset like glory, self-esteem, being funded even if not better paid).

          • In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill….All these dangers are caused by human intervention….and thus the “real enemy, then, is humanity itself….believe humanity requires a common motivation, namely a common adversary in order to realize world government. It does not matter if this common enemy is “a real one or….one invented for the purpose.

            From the ‘Club of Rome’ publication, The First Global Revolution, 1990.

            This organization outlined how they would manufacture ecological scares in order to manipulate the public into accepting the imposition of a dictatorial world government run by them. Obviously, given the cynicism demonstrated, few of them actually believed in what they were telling the public, it was just a means to an end – something common to many of the alarmists (Gore is a classic example). When as seems to be the case for ‘global warming’, deceit is deliberately and cynically used by a group of people in order to bring about objectives that are not the ones claimed, this is a conspiracy.

            The quote is one of many in similar vein from people set on various agendas (not often personal profit, at least not directly – that is a fortunate spin-off when it occurs). For more examples see http://www.c3headlines.com/global-warming-quotes-climate-change-quotes.html – where several interconnected agendas are on display.

            While many of these people may well be just parroting AlainCo’s ‘groupthink’, it seems rather unlikely that the prime movers behind the AGW scare, such as Mann, Gore, Schneider, Jones, Erlich, Suzuki, Holdren et al. are unconnected and acting as a result of their real beliefs. The monolithic scaremongering pushed for several decades by the IPCC, the Club of Rome, the UN Commission on Global Governance, and many other Malthusian ‘think tanks’, plus an assortment of qwangos, controlled media and government environmental agencies confirms that this is a concerted disinformation movement. As the real purposes and objectives of the propaganda are not revealed, non-conformers are persecuted, and many people are involved in a co-ordinated effort to deceive the public for purposes of their own, the AGW scare clearly falls into the category ‘conspiracy’.

          • Omega Z

            In shorthand, You could just post-
            I’m more then Qualified to determine whats best for you…
            The New World Order- The Nanny State

            Note that this is a Societal Issue. There is no shortage of unqualified people(Friends, Family, Strangers, Etc…) who will tell you whats best for you. The difference between them & the so-called PTB is, TPTB have both Money & Power to try and implement their beliefs. No matter how misguided they may be.

          • bachcole

            Although 49er just convinced me that conspiracies are very likely and probably certain, I don’t think that they can do that with cold fusion, because:

            1. They are already doing it to cold fusion and have been doing it for the past 26 years.

            2. The Internet

      • Omega Z

        LENR G
        “Collecting an entire year of data on one plant before doing anything else seems overly cautious.” I don’t think so.

        This is R&D. No one is going to produce 1000’s of these before the parameters of control are reasonably known. The Pilot plant is to obtain and/or enhance that knowledge base of controlling multiple reactors simultaneously.

        You suggest putting this in the hands of those “who know what they’re doing”. Who would you suggest. It’s already in the hands of the most qualified people there is. Rossi & his team. Where did this team come from?

        “Putting this in the hands of others would just be a delay. They would likely spend a couple years with Ross’s help just analyzing it & ultimately, They too would setup a Pilot plant & run it for at least a year.” The whole purpose of a Pilot Plant is to prove out a concept. To validate it before production begins. Consider this a Beta product.

        You appear to think the Pilot plant is a waste of time. To the Contrary, Everything else Rossi has done has been leading up to this. This Is The Money Shot.

        NOTE: Industrial Heat has a mailing address & a phone number. Cherokee manages 2 Billion in investments. However, Industrial Heat has NADA, Nothing. It consists of a dozen Entities of which only 2 names are known. Who are the unknown entities. GE, Siemens, B&W, Duke Energy…

        INDUSTRIAL HEAT. It is a Front Company.
        Those you want to become involved in E-cat, May Already Be Involved. Likely the Providers of facilities & the people of expert skills on Rossi’s team.

        Hmmm. Maybe Rossi did put this in the hands of others? The “Industrial Heat Front” has spent a couple years just analyzing it with Rossi’s help & ultimately, setup a Pilot plant to run for at least a year.

        • bachcole

          Let us keep in mind, people, that LENR+ is not a new technology. The automobile was a new technology, and it took decades to develop into anything but a novelty. Burning gasoline was NOT a new technology; it was NOT a new physical event or phenomena. LENR is a NEW physical event or phenomena unrecognised and utterly new to the human race since the beginning of time. Of course it is going to take time, a frustratingly long period of time.

    • bachcole

      It is very likely that 2015 will be the year of MFMP-Parkhomov. I don’t see Rossi making a big splash until 2016. Although I hope that I am wrong.

  • David_Kaiser_39

    I have been running around for more than one year trying to convince people of something. People with money and therefore power. But I cannot state personally that all our energy problems might be solved and therefore will not be convincing. The only way I can see to get the prove is to request the detailed items list from MFMP and build that thing by my own. Once they have proved the excess heat.

    • Fortyniner

      I gave up trying to persuade anyone about cold fusion some time ago, when it became apparent that there would be no commercial products available until some time during 2015 at the earliest. As this point now seems to be drifting inexorably towards 2017 or later, I would be even less likely to mention e-cats to anyone these days.

      With this latest projection from Rossi, I believe that independent replication of the ‘hot cat’ is probably now the only way in which the technology will become available to the public within any reasonable time frame. While they may have made great technical progress on one reactor design, it seems to me that IH are failing dismally to bring to bear R&D resources that match the world’s desperate need for this technology.

      If MFMP succeed in building a viable HT nickel hydride reactor which produces incontrovertible energy gain, you won’t need to build one yourself as the know-how will quickly spread via the internet, and shortly afterwards every appliance manufacturer and unemployed engineer in the world will begin offering their versions.

      • I agree. I gave it up too. And if you mention the keywords “Rossi” or “e-cat” you make it even worse. People will google it and find a lot of pathosceptic stuff.

        And of course, also we, as followers of this technology can only hope that Rossi has what he says. All this vagueness in the two released “independent” reports do still leave room for fraudulence. Also when more and more signs seem to support Rossi’s claims.

        • Fortyniner

          I don’t doubt the reality of the e-cat, or the various test results, but I do think that Rossi may currently be dispensing limited partial truths, deliberately designed to mislead.

          In a way I hope that he is, because if you take recent pronouncements at face value it would be very easy to become quite depressed. As OZ says below, it simply makes no sense at all for IH to – in effect – put commercial development of a multi-billion dollar discovery on hold, pending a full year’s worth of data from a single pilot installation. Nor would it make sense to halt work on the ‘gas cat’ and a variety of other possible embodiments pending this data, so we can probably assume that this is not the case. Again, I hope so, as to do otherwise would demonstrate that IH are the wrong people to manage the job.

          If things are not as they seem though, this obviously begs the question of what, exactly, is going on. In the almost total absence of any clues, OZ’s suggestions below seem as good as any.

    • bachcole

      David, you will be able to show people if this works out.

      • Daniel Maris

        “Unfortunately I haven’t saved old posts and dates, but I can recall that
        at least 2 years ago (maybe even 3 years) the 1MW plant was being
        installed at a customer’s site and that it was running fine as per Mr
        Rossi’s direct writing.”

        It’s not really good enough to declare you have perfect recall! – I think we need to have some direct quotes. Very often the original wording tends to be more ambiguous than people assume.

        Also, let’s not forget that Richard Branson, the well known entrepreneur who has also been in trouble with the law before now has made many claims for his Virgin Galactic spaceship, which have failed to materialise – but no one says he is a fraud.

        As much as Rossi hasn’t shown his device to be genuine, through general marketing, he hasn’t been shown to be a fraud either.

        • Omega Z

          Branson, Musk, Many make what turn out to be premature statements. The Future is hard to predict as things can go differently then we think.

          OLED technology comes to mind. Great potential that hasn’t yet materialized as planned. To become so cheap that it would be throw away products. Tho available in small screens, it has been very complex & expensive to scale to large products.

  • David_Kaiser_39

    I have been running around for more than one year trying to convince people of something. People with money and therefore power. But I cannot state personally that all our energy problems might be solved and therefore will not be convincing. The only way I can see to get the prove is to request the detailed items list from MFMP and build that thing by my own. Once they have proved the excess heat.

    • I gave up trying to persuade anyone about Rossi’s e-cat some time ago, when it became apparent that there would be no commercial products available until some time during 2015 at the earliest. As this point now seems to be drifting inexorably towards 2017 or later, I would be even less likely to mention e-cats to anyone these days.

      If we take this latest projection from Rossi at face value, then independent replication of the ‘hot cat’ is probably now the only way in which the technology will become available to the public within any reasonable time frame, and more importantly, available for independent theoretical research. While they may have made great technical progress on one reactor design, it seems to me that IH are failing dismally to bring to bear R&D resources that match the world’s desperate need for this technology – IF we accept Rossi’s post as-is.

      If MFMP succeed in building a viable HT nickel hydride reactor which produces incontrovertible energy gain, you won’t need to build one yourself as the know-how will quickly spread via the internet, and shortly afterwards every appliance manufacturer and unemployed engineer in the world will begin offering their versions.

      • I agree. I gave it up too. And if you mention the keywords “Rossi” or “e-cat” you make it even worse. People will google it and find a lot of pathosceptic stuff.

        And of course, also we, as followers of this technology can only hope that Rossi has what he says. All this vagueness in the two released “independent” reports do still leave room for fraudulence. Also when more and more signs seem to support Rossi’s claims.

        • Personally, I don’t doubt the reality of the e-cat, or the various test results, but I do think that Rossi may currently be dispensing limited partial truths, possibly deliberately designed to mislead.

          In a way I hope that he is, because if you take recent pronouncements at face value it would be very easy to become quite depressed at the picture of snail-like rate of progress along a plodding, linear development path that seems to extend into the distant future.

          As LENR G says below, it simply makes no sense at all for IH to – in effect – put commercial development of a multi-billion dollar discovery on hold, pending a full year’s worth of data from a single pilot installation. Nor would it make sense to halt work on the ‘gas cat’ and a variety of other possible embodiments pending this data, so we can probably assume that neither are the case, despite the lack of any news. Again, I hope so, as otherwise this would demonstrate that IH were a very poor choice of partner.

          So – if things are not as they seem, this obviously begs the question of what, exactly, is going on. In the almost total absence of any clues, LENR G’s suggestions below seem as good as any.

    • bachcole

      David, you will be able to show people if this works out.

  • Private Citizen

    And after one year, if the goal posts don’t move even farther into the future, skeps and investors will have far less reason to believe the secret industrial customer’s claims of energy gain than the Elforsk experiments conducted under rigorous laboratory conditions with all data published. They will claim the customer is lying with financial motive. We will arrive back nearly at square one.

    If Rossi’s strategy is to appear to the world sufficiently dubious and tottering as to cleverly advance his technology while others snooze, well he’s succeeding grandly.

    We live in a world of exponential technological advancement. Another year is an eternity. I’m rooting for anything that brings final proof or invalidation faster.

    • Zizzle

      I agree that waiting each day is harder. Ever since the Lugano report…

      I think it all boils down to proof over potential. Unlike hot fusion, which sits atop a pedestal made of sunlight (talk about boundless potential), LENR started life on the ground floor and then was shoved into the basement. Very likely, there will be no mainstream peer review or billionaire’s attention until an LENR developer is profiting from the use of such a system.

  • Private Citizen

    And after one year, if the goal posts don’t move even farther into the future, skeps and investors will have far less reason to believe the secret industrial customer’s claims of energy gain than the Elforsk experiments conducted under rigorous laboratory conditions with all data published. They will claim the customer is lying with financial motive. We will arrive back nearly at square one.

    If Rossi’s strategy is to appear to the world sufficiently dubious and tottering as to cleverly advance his technology while others snooze, well he’s succeeding grandly.

    We live in a world of exponential technological advancement. Another year is an eternity. I’m rooting for anything that brings final proof or invalidation faster.

    • Zizzle

      I agree that waiting each day is harder. Ever since the Lugano report…

      I think it all boils down to proof over potential. Unlike hot fusion, which sits atop a pedestal made of sunlight (talk about boundless potential), LENR started life on the ground floor and then was shoved into the basement. Very likely, there will be no mainstream peer review or billionaire’s attention until an LENR developer is profiting from the use of such a system.

  • Jack

    My first question was actually split in two parts. The first part is the one Rossi published, the other part was deleted/edited by him. I am not sure why he edited my question but if i recall correctly i also asked him why, in his opinion of course, the customer wants to keep the whole thing secret if everything is going well as he says.

    The reason i asked this is that it seems weird to me.
    If i was his customer it wouldn’t take me so much time before understanding that this thing actually works… so why hide it? Why should I, customer, want to hide my partnership with him if the E-Cat is working so well?

    The only reason i can think is that IH forces them to keep their mouths shut as part of the contract. Perhaps to avoid industrial secrets leaks before they are ready for the mass-market. Yet i would have preferred a “no comment” on this part of my question instead than an edit.

    • Omega Z

      The Customer would want to remain silent for the very Reasons IH/Rossi don’t say much. The Customer wants to retain his edge against competitors.

  • malkom700

    This shocking information without explanation suggests that it is necessary to start the IH communication also for the receive first hand information.

    • this let room for competitors, but also pressure to go fast.
      If competitors propose some technology mature like E-cat today (independent test) while IH get commercial, there will be some actors who bet on competitors, waiting a little.

      if IH is alone, it will be a monopoly

    • ecatworld

      Rossi has been talking about a 1 year testing period for quite a long time now. This is the first time he has mentioned actual dates, though. So this isn’t really shocking to me — but it does mean that 2015 may not be the year of the E-Cat.

      • Fortyniner

        I think that some of the dismay that a few contributors are expressing may stem from two main causes:

        (1) The fact that the ‘1 year’ clock seems to be subject to reset, for reasons that are never explained (not that we are due any explanations). The wait for significant developments therefore becomes indefinite, as further unexplained resets can be introduced at any time, and,

        (2) The lack of any suggestion that anyone outside the IH loop will be allowed to visit the pilot plant during testing, as Rossi seemed to be promising at one point. Others may well have other expectations that it seems will not now be met, and a few of us are beginning to suspect that IH may be far from the top of a developing food chain.

        Taken together, it seems fairly clear that, despite Rossi’s regular cheerleading, the whole project has in fact disappeared behind IH’s closed doors, and there is a complete embargo on any real news that AR is forced to observe. As I myself have pointed out on many occasions, we are not entitled to know anything about how and when e-cat reactors will finally see the light of day, but up until recently we have at least had some information to examine and chat about.

        From now on I fear that we are all just rather pointlessly whistling in the dark, and will not learn much more until the rest of the world does – and that we may not much like the news when we receive it.

        • ecatworld

          Rossi has always said that visitors from the media would only be able to visit the site after they considered the plant ‘consolidated’ — i.e. running satisfactorily for an appropriate amount of time from their perspective. At one point, he was saying that visiting time would be in 2014.

          It seems they ran into unforeseen problems once they put the plant under load that has led to a lot of rejigging — I think maybe the control system needed a lot of work, and that has set the project back by a year, at least.

          I don’t think they will open the doors until they are fully satisfied that this is a stable and profitable plant because they don’t want to risk an embarrassing, or potentially devastating PR disaster.

          Also, as soon as they unveil the plant, I think the competition will really start up, and an early sneak peek would alert potential competitors. Maybe also the track record they can accumulate during this testing period will help them with their patent application.

          I think it’s an understandable strategy from IH’s point of view, but it doesn’t seem so satisfying to us on the outside!

          • bachcole

            A voice of sanity in a room full of whining, complaining, and conspiracy theories.

        • bachcole

          And which part of your mental processes decided that “we may not much like the news when we receive it”. That strikes me as a psychological predisposition to see things in a bad light. I get that not at all. All I see is an annoying delay; everything else is speculation.

          And we still have Parkhomov/MFMP. I.H. and Rossi may regret that they are taking so long.

          • Fortyniner

            I would prefer it if you would try to keep your analyses of other posters’ mental state out of the discussion. Generally they probably tell readers more about your own psychological state than that of your targets. Regarding the phrase you quote, I would have thought that the meaning was quite clear. I will elaborate anyway.

            There seems to be an implicit assumption here, fostered by a number of Rossi’s comments, that domestic e-cats are ready for production and the only thing that is hindering this is lack of safety certification. The expectation of some is therefore that once the ‘pilot plant’ has demonstrated safety in principle, production will commence and the world will change forever, and for the better.

            I am simply pointing out that things may not pan out that way, and such hopes may be dashed. Whether or not I personally expect such an outcome is irrelevant – I put forward such a possibility in the interests of balance.

            What if (for instance) the flow of vague information from JONP slowly dries up, and one day when the obvious blackout has become rather embarrassing, comments are closed because Rossi ‘needs to devote all his time to perfecting the industrial heaters’ or similar. There then follows a year or so of total silence, before General Electric (or Westinghouse, or Siemens, or…) announce that they have closed deals with a dozen governments for supply of a new type of clean, safe nuclear reactor they have developed, and that these will replace the current nuclear fission ‘fleet’ over the next decade or two.

            The implications of such news would be fairly obvious: Central power generation to continue – you will still need to buy metered electricity from your existing supplier; The label ‘nuclear’ will mean a total monopoly and suppression of any competition; No domestic e-cats for the forseeable future; Business as usual for the energy cartels.

            I wouldn’t like to wake up to such news and I’m sure that many others here wouldn’t either. It would mean that our future has been stolen – a fait accompli. And all that is required for this scenario to be come more or less inevitable is for IH to sell out to a multinational corporate concern – a development with (IMO) a fairly high probability.

          • EEStorFanFibb

            So Rossi has a finished pilot plant operating at a customer’s location. I’m just gonna do some spit ballin’ here and say that because Cherokee likes the brick making business so much I bet the ecat plant is involved in making bricks at a Cherokee owned business. Just wild speculation on my part. I also think that IH is probably planning on manufacturing low temperature ecats by the millions in 2016 using an automated manufacturing facility in China. There must also be some kind of IH research lab somewhere in the USA, but only IH and Rossi know where.

          • Those have been my working assumptions as well.

            But they’re just assumptions. One thing I’ve learned following this story is that quite often things are not exactly as they appear.

          • MasterBlaster7

            Probably, yes, an IH research lab somewhere. Also, ill bet that Naval
            Research, SPAWAR, and DARPA have some solid basic research going on
            somewhere. Remember, Rossi has been in bed with these guys for some
            time and if they think it is the real deal too….Manhattan project 2
            anyone?….maybe not something that size…but definitely something
            hardcore.

          • The government has been too involved as you correctly point out to be completely uninvolved at this point.

            What their involvement is exactly is an interesting question. Maybe they are the ringleader of a massive effort. Maybe they provide the labs for continued R&D. Maybe they only dabble through one or two select contractors. Maybe they remain unconvinced and are taking an arms length wait and see approach.

            One thing for sure is that the USG is not of one mind on this technology. There are pockets of enthusiastic support, but we don’t really know if it goes much beyond that. I sure hope so though.

          • Omega Z

            A little background research brings up a lot of Government personnel & agency connections with many of those involved with LENR. Likely even a few that we have never heard of according to Mckubre of SRI.

            As you ask, are they ringleaders orchestrating the roll-out. Contrary to the opinions of some, this is a huge task. Maybe to big to leave to just a few. It’s been stated that they (TPTB)want it to be available to all.

            Speaking of TPTB, brought up here often, This group is not a lockstep group. A lot of Rich people with big Ego’s. I find no reason why you wouldn’t have different camps with different views on LENR roll-out or suppression. It may not be in the interest of some for this technology to come out.(Doesn’t fit other agenda’s) This would explain very well why we get mixed messages from high places.

            Note, TPTB would have foot soldiers to help carryout their work. I find many people behind the scenes involved with LENR researchers that fit this bill very well. One of which is on Rossi’s Board of Advisers on JONP.

          • mike

            A ceo from a defense department contractor spoke at Mills’ last demo. But looking how the military allows for the doubt by not issuing press releases. What I mean is “once they get their weapon”, they’ll shut them all down, hell Rossi may die of old age all of a sudden. I hope the hell I am wrong, but it just keeps sitting at the back of my mind. Military seems to know of all the major lenr players.

        • At the moment there are a lot of rumors from Wallstreet journal that apple is working on electric cars.

          Maybe someone can contact them and ask what they think about LENR?

          • The iCat will cost twice as much as an E-Cat but have a much sleeker design and better commercials.

          • BroKeeper

            “Warning! Touch screen may burn your fingers”

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Attach some thermocouples to be on the safe side.

          • I don’t like apple, but they have a very huge research and development center and very very much money. They can try and risk a lot.

            Why not with LENR?

          • Yeah them and Google could take this across the finish line quickly.

    • What global warming?
      Nothing significant in temperature change for 18 years.
      Still I would like to see some form of LENR product soon.

      • malkom700

        I would be glad if this would be important, but unfortunately during the Arctic and termafrost melts and warming seas. The atmospheric temperature is likely to grow by sudden therefore we have already prepared a spacesuits.

        • Fortyniner

          Please look at the facts, rather than the agenda driven propaganda produced by Pachouri, Jones, Harrabin, Suzuki, Mann et al.

          http://www.climatedepot.com

          • malkom700

            Please look at the calculations, rather than the “facts”.
            http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/366/1882/4039

          • Fortyniner

            Ken Caldeira (along with his close associate, David Keith) is a major advocate of geoengineering or ‘solar radiation management’ through stratospheric dispersal of various chemicals from aircraft, aka ‘chemtrails’. He is an ex-lead author for the IPCC – the hub of most of the climate scare stories. As such he is hardly an objective source.

            http://issues.org/27-1/caldeira/

            I show you a depository of the work of hundreds of researchers who do not find any evidence for runaway CO2 driven climate change, you give me one agent of the very propaganda I referred to in my previous post.

            Your reply confirms for me that ‘AGW’ truly is a religion, in that its adherents are immune to any factual information that opposes their beliefs and will not even look at it when offered. Further discussion here, as always, would serve no purpose.

          • malkom700

            Thanks for the explanation, I would be glad if would not Paul Cruitzen right.

          • It *is* swimming in millions of dollars.

            Your healthy skepticism is healthy. There are still questions and though the weight of the evidence is still heavily in favor of LENR and the E-Cat being the real deal we do not yet have enough information in the public realm to state things conclusively.

            Please keep in mind that Rossi is not the only player in this game. Were he still running solo things would smell fishy indeed. But now well-funded Industrial Heat is the main player, is presumed to be a responsible entity and they still have Rossi’s back. Other players like Brillouin, Clean Planet, Nichenergy, LENUCO, Nanortech and others matter too when analyzing what’s happening.

          • LuFong

            Let’s just say Rossi got a little ahead of himself:

            Andrea Rossi

            November 13th,
            2011 at 9:37 AM

            Dear Pietro F:

            We use English to be globally understood and not to be confined
            .

            About your question if the 1 MW plant is in operation yet: not yet,
            it will take a couple of more weeks to set up the plant on the proper site.

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

            Andrea Rossi

            November 28th,
            2011 at 6:48 PM

            Dear Herb Gills:

            Today we sold in the USA a 1 MW plant which will go to a normal
            Customer. This installation will be visitable by the qualified
            public.

            We wait to have completed the contractual procedure through the
            attorneys, then we will give communication. It will be in the North East
            of the USA, where I have been in these days.

            Warm Regards,

            A.R.

          • Now there is the question: Where is this “normal” (civil?) customer mentioned in 2011? Very dubious statement, seen from today.

          • LuFong

            I think it’s the same customer as today, maybe even one of Cherokee/IH’s concerns (brick manufacturer). Rossi just likes to puts stuff out there a little early. All IMO.

          • Gerrit

            I just wonder how IH will publicly present the e-cat after the full year operational trial. Or if they will keep it silent even after that.

            There is no doubt that the plant, of which we have seen the fotos, is currently delivering energy to a production process, based on a technology that is still believed by most scientists to be a pipe dream.

          • Agaricus

            Given their approach so far, I suspect there will be no ‘launch’ as such, and possibly not even any public announcements. It is us observers who are focused on such a splash for our various personal reasons, but there doesn’t seem to be any commercial reason to do this, and probably quite a few good reasons not to. IH will probably have their plans in place and will see development as an ongoing process, without any need to mark any particular milestones. It all depends on what capacity IH will have in place towards the end of this year for series production of commercial CF steam generators, and/or higher pressure boilers.

            If they are following a fairly linear strategy – simplifying down the design of the pilot in parallel with acquiring experience and data, and putting in place their own arrangements for limited manufacture – then word of mouth will be more than sufficient to create demand in excess of their capacity to produce the goods, which may be limited to only half a dozen plants per year initially. Possibly they intend to allow production to grow ‘organically’ as profits form sales or leasing (more likely) allow geometric growth of their production base.

            If on the other hand they have some large third party manufacturing facility (in China or elsewhere) that will be ready to start manufacture as soon as the first production design is finalised, then they may need a modest amount of publicity aimed at potential industrial markets in order to get the ball rolling, but would still not need to convince the public or politicians of anything. In fact, the reverse – it would make more sense to get as many plants as possible in place and operating quietly, in as many countries as will accept them, before politicians in particular become aware.

          • Gerrit

            Rossi on his blog on 25 February 2015:

            “When the tests and the R&D related to the operation of the 1 MW plant supplied to the Customer will have been completed we will give the due information.”

            We will give due information. I wonder what that will be.